NS Train 13T's Epic Struggle Uphill at 0.4 MPH!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 เม.ย. 2015
- NS 13T is seen struggling majorly up the mountain on the RBMN Lehigh Line. Wet rails and dual DC locomotives didnt help the situation that much. A BNSF ES44DC and an NS C44-9 were the power. Location is at the Seven Tubs Nature area know by the railroad as Kelly's Run. They did eventually make the hill however! David Deamond did a fantastic job lugging the train up the grade.
![[4K] Train Stalling with Wheel Slips and Sand](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EXCFHnzeeco/mqdefault.jpg)
I cant imagine how loud this was when it pulled up under the bridge. Unbelievable engine power...
Y we it struggles to go up a hill...
Believable
Oh yeah absolutely
@@swargpatel7634 wat?
Thousands upon thousands of horsepower and these struggle to get up any little incline. I feel the struggle, I'm currently playing a train sim and I had to stop at a signal. Took me almost 30min to get going after I rolled down the hill far enough to where it was less steep
ya know, for a multi million dallar loco, you would think the wipers would be smoother.
21st century technology on the drive train, 19th century on the wipers.
You ain't lying about!
They might not be smooth, but definitely reliable. I'd bet that's all the engineers would care about
Unseen primitivism!
They work off air.I imagine that air is being used in the struggle.
These slow-drag heavy freight videos are more interesting than the 70 mph train videos. You can see and hear everything that is going on. I noticed that the lead unit would lurch to the right occasionally at the same time it made a grunting noise. Then later I saw that the third axle on the front truck was slipping occasionally, which was making the grunting noise. The engines were not running that hot, as the cooling fans were kicking on and off. I bet that grade could be run faster with the same power in dry conditions, but the wet rails was limiting the power that could be put to the track.
Well put; even the newest evolutionary GE and EMD locos will always have issues with the elements. The grade obviously doesn't help.
Evan Weber,
Believe it or not, that is not true. This is one of the reasons why trains are so efficient at carrying goods ... low rolling resistance!
Iron to iron is very good choice for low rolling resistance, and economical. But water would reduce friction a lot. Don't they have sanders onboard for this situation?
Michael Bauers from what I understand sanding is only used in dry conditions because with a lubricant the adhesion between the metal wheels sand wanted and tails combined would severely wear the rails.
One little slip of the wheels and it's knuckle time. Maybe drawhead time.
I think I can.... I think I can.... I think I can
*Starts slipping backwards*
OH FUCK I CAN'T OH FUCK I CAN'T OH FUCK I CAN'T
@@Liam40 Say that in case of ED.
I think I love it... I think I love it...
SirDeanosity
I'm Ed.
Excellent catch Sam! Just shows how clever modern traction control is, and a good engineer too! Good stuff!
Cheers Gregg.
Now that was EPIC! There aren't many videos where you can hear quieter 4 strokes clearly like this!
The only reason I was born was to watch this video................
You might as well have gone down to give him a push lol
Justin Newhall i dout it would help atall because the trains so heavy
really....
Snuffle upagu5 are you stupid?
Considering that a single locomotive weighs 200 tons, + how many Traincars its pulling, so yeah I dont think a person could push it
Justin Newhall m
Traction is so important! Its like having a car with 900 horsepower and the wheels spinning every time you step on the gas ( if you don't hook up you don't go anywhere)
As a kid, I rode trains a lot... One engineer I rode with often knew I was going to go to college, so he asked me how much horsepower it took to
to move our train. It wasn't very much! 7000 tons on a 1.25% grade with 4 Alco RS3s, 60,000 TE each, figured out to be much less than ..........
300 HP from each 1600 HP locomotive! For the 12 minutes in the triple switchback curve at the summit.......
he was known for notching DOWN and maxing the load meter - I never saw him stall on the ruling grade in back of the farm I grew up on. He sure saved a lot of fuel!
Speed = 1.6 mph
Rolling drag = 20755 lbs
Grade drag = 194825 lbs
Curve drag = 20261 lbs
Total drag = 235842 lbs
Rolling Hp = 89 hp
Grade Hp = 841 hp
Curve Hp = 87 hp
Total Hp = 1018 hp This is from 'the Krug's train facts and figures' website - an engineer with a college degree in physics, I think. Brilliant guy!
lol r u a train engineer; howd u go into his train cabin...
@@nicksgarage8295 In 1959 when I was 14 and just starting high school, I used to hang around the railroad in my small home town. The engineers would give me rides and let me run the engines, since they saw I knew what I was doing. Using the brakes is the secret to safe train handling in the mountains and I studied everything I could find about the braking systems, especially how to avoid rough train handling. There were cabooses back then and the owner of the train, the conductor, rode at the back of the train. Having the conductor tell what a smooth ride he got really made my day on days I had off school and rode the train.
@@1776vtgmb so your 74 years old. congrats!!! wonder if theyd let me do that today idk...
@@nicksgarage8295 Our rifles went on the school bus with us so that we could shoot on the boy scout range after school... in upstate NY. The 1950s America I grew up in doesn't exist any more.
@@1776vtgmb Sad but true.
So this is what the NS C40-9 looked like before being rebuilt into a wide nose
I love your Minecraft trains
:0
Make this remake
;-;
This is an awesome video! great catch. I love to watch locomotives work. The power is unbelievable. Thanks for sharing this.🙂
You found the live feed of me paying off my student loans lol
LMFAO I know the feeling
Your a pilot like me! (I feel your pain)
I'm visiting in Pittsburgh from fort Lauderdale I heard a freight train thundering up a grade this morning sounded amazing that brought me here
awesome train video
Forgot to add ... I love your videos. Very good watching.
Excellent catch !!!!
Curve wet rails! Nice! 🚂
🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃
Wet Curved Rails + slow speeds = bad results for the train
- Can slip downhill and derail
- Can Stall and go downhill and derail
So yeah bad results
Great catch! Subbed!
Someone back at the yard seriously didn't think for this train. I;m surprised they didn't burn up the motors yet. awesome video of the pure power of these things
Kind of neat to see the motors walk back and forth across the track! Lots of force there! The interaction between the units - you can really see them walk!
Great video! The only bad thing is that the locomotives weren't EMDs. Gotta love that EMD sound.
Southern p.
LordCarpenter eh I prefer the chug
If it were emd it wouldn’t have made it to the guy recoding
@@Jdaminbf4 LOL!
Are you kidding?
This sounds so badass with earbuds!!
awesome video man .God that sound is amazing
Joe Cameron I know right.
gevos sound so badass!
plug it into your car radio for surround sound
Joe Cameron instagram.com/laftmonk
Great video ! Nice close ups . Brute power up close .
Brilliant catch :)
Wow you can see the BNSF unit have wheel spin when it passing by.
That is computor controlled wheel slip, NOT wheel spin.
Great sound
Sound of weakness!
Heavy!!!
Those GEs can pull a heavy load , engine moves sideways every time it wants to slip. What a catch, First time watcher, will watch more.
Why is this so fascinating.
This is one of the best rail operation videos I've seen. Right place and time, and you correctly filmed the trucks to show the stresses and the wheel slip control. Thank you for this amazing video, the rain just added more tension to the drama!!
The wheelslip technology works very well in these situations, all microchip controlled. These are reliable engines and will get you up almost anything within weight parameters.
Well there was a curve before uphill which made them have to get rid of any momentum
@@jayasmrmore3687 It seemed foggy and moist. Thus that is your answer. Even with technology the slippery railhead can not be beaten easily. Wheel slip.
Spectacular catch!
Watching those bearing caps stop, and the trucks lurch tells you all you need to know.
Great camera work!
Awesome catch.
Amazing! I've been wanting to see a train struggle like this up a grade for ever! To be able to see the wheels slipping and the trucks and engines shuddering while being at the level of the exhaust stacks to here that music...yup, all boxes checked!
A lot harder pull up the old Lehigh Valley mountain than 1.4% grade, lot of curves and trains stall, was chief from 76 to 83 on the LV and Conrail.
Outstanding video. Really get to see everything working as a whole rather than missing the sights and sounds of a speeding train
I know little to nothing about trains but love them at the same time.
That is one razor thin HP/ton margin.
This is a rather steep grade, but I'd say this train was definitely lacking power
@@foxtrot7747 It had all the power needed. What it lacked was tractive effort.
its leaf mould he's slipping on with a damp coating on top. it's like teflon , slippy !!!!!!!!!!!!!
HP/ton Is constantly usled in many comments, but it's wrong. C. T. E. counts. If this train Had 2 AC4400CW units HP would be the same but c.t.e. much higher +steerable trucks maybe?
@Advocatus Diaboli Power doesn't mean pulling force, unless you mention the speed at which the train in moving. Power tells you how fast you can travel with a certain load, while tractive effort tells you how much you can pull, regardless of power. These two locos didn't have enough tractive effort, a more powerful engine wouldn't help.
Don't listen to Zohan. Where he comes from the longest trains are probably only 15 wagons or what ever they are call them, you know the ones like Thomas pulls.
Awesome catch!
Those wiper blades had me mesmerized.
Imagine getting stuck at a grade crossing waiting for this to pass?
I would cry
I would sleep for 8 hours
Liked!!!!!!!!
Best power video ever, I subbed..
Awesome video!
Super amazing video! Loved hearing those GE's up in notch 8! And seeing them up that close!
@Jeff C They actually are. I work the steepest mainline grades on my Class I and I can assure you, we spend a lot of time in Throttle 8 under 1mph in adverse weather conditions.
@Jeff C the locomotives have tractive effort software that limits wheel slip and cuts individual axles out when they slip. They grind and grab and buck when they are fighting grades. It's a rough ride up in the cab when you're in 8 and they are fighting to grab the rails. You can sit in denial, but we do it constantly. You pull in 8 until forward momentum ceases. 0.1 mph is still forward momentum. When you hit 0.0mph, you give it a few minutes to fight and try to restart itself and when that fails, you put the brakes on and call the dispatcher and either wait for a shove from a helper or you have to double your train over the hill.
@Jeff C it doesn't de-rate the prime mover. It has no reason to. Your car is a direct drive system that puts power to the transmission. It cuts the horsepower of your engine because it has to cut the horsepower to the transmission to stop wheel slip.. A locomotive doesn't have a transmission. It runs a Generator, which generates AC or DC power that is then supplied to the traction motors. If it de-rated the whole prime mover, it would cut generated electricity to the whole traction motor system and you would never get anywhere. It doesn't need to do that. The High Adhesion software only cuts out the axles that are slipping. Not all 6 axles slip at once when you're pulling, or if they do, it's rare. You will see the tractive effort software effort fail sometimes and all 6 wheels will spin and throw sparks. By your logic, if the prime mover de-rated every time a wheel slipped, we would never move the train. Wheel slip occurs constantly, even just starting a train on dry track because of how heavy they are. You use a lot of sand on a trip just to keep grip on the rails. On the computer screen on the engineer side, you have a load meter that reads in KW/h. That's what the prime mover is generating, i.e. "loading" on the generator. You don't want your load meter to drop while you're pulling a heavy grade. De-rating the horsepower of the prime mover will cause it to drop, which causes reduced load on Generator, which means less power sent to the traction motors, which means less power to pull.
@Jeff C I'm sorry but you're not as smart as you think you are when it comes to rail technology. Call GE/Wabtech and have them explain it to you. You're basing your argument on the same principle as a vehicle with a mechanical transmission and the belief that every single axle is getting 4,000hp. That's not how it works. It's 4,000hp spread out over 6 axles. This is why, when you lose a traction motor, you have to reduce your load capability in tonnage by 15 or 20%. Even in adverse conditions, you reduce by 15 or 20%. If the locomotive is rated to pull 2,900 tons on a maximum of 2.5% grade, you reduce that by 15 or 20% when you have a traction motor go down or in bad weather. That's simple physics. If you have two locomotives, and you're facing a 2.5% grade somewhere on your subdivision, you're good to pull 5,800 tons. We also have axles values that are relative to power and dynamic braking capabilities. An AC4400CW has a powered and braking axle value of 9, even though it only has 6 axles. That's how strong these traction motors are. The dynamic brakes on an SD70 are so strong, they have an axle value of 11, even though they only have 6 axles. We literally have people in our company who are smarter than you, who sit around and calculate the physics and values of what we are and aren't capable of doing, run them in simulators, and find out why we stall our trains and why we have so much power we are breaking knuckles and drawheads.
@Jeff C what you're not understanding is the locomotives have software that prevents wheel slip. Software. It's a function of their Linux-based Operating System. Yes, technically, the axle does start to spin. The software detects this and literally reacts to a wheel slip condition nearly instantaneous because it is monitoring each axle. GE/Wabtech literally designed their High Adhesion software for this purpose. When it detects a wheel slip, it cuts the power to that axle. How is this so hard to understand? The nose of the locomotive is literally full of computer electronics on the right hand side that have a function DESIGNED to mitigate wheel slip. You also realize that there are sanders on the axles that are spraying sand on the rails to increase adhesion, right? For someone so smart, you're not very good at reading comprehension.
man, the amount of physics here is pretty cool - diesel to AC to heat to wheel energy to wheel traction to track adhesion to gravity and inertia combining to pull on the knuckles
Yep except for the gravity part lol. Let's leave the theoretical nonsense to the space liars
@@billygribble9939 lol? how do trains exert a perpendicular force on the track then?
Weight and geometry. Balanced chassis. Proper speed. Gravity is not required.
@@billygribble9939 what is the force that applies a load to the mass that is on the wheels?
Weight.
This is awesome.
Wow right on the limit. Ultimate test for a loco a tight curve, climbing a gradient with a wet rail and some leaves. Enjoyed listening to them grinding away.
The best videos are when you can hear the locos working hard
And you wonder why BNSF said, "You need a locomotive? Take that one."
I need one, can I take one? Even if just to borrow?
I've heard about the sanders on the G.E.s leave you slipping. A couple of SD90MACs would be nice.
Or, if only GE made 2-stroke diesels...
Been there, done that. Conductor saying don’t let her stop, don’t let her stop. Don’t worry about the Mule, just load the wagon. That is the way NS ran their stack trains, one engine with 20 cars, which in reality was a hundred, 5 car per carriage.
Nice shot of the wheel slip.
Former LVRR mountain cut-off about 1.4% grade, very winding, really a lot hard pull than it appears.
I think I can I think I can I think I can I think I can.
This was epic! That GEVO is at full power pulling this load! Look at her go!
Jeff C, indeed, because the the more power you add, the more chances you'll get wheelslip.
This is like 2% power dood lol
I love trains
What % grade is this and length? Great job by the crew.
I was STO from 72 to 83 on the part of railroad, it's 1.4% grade but really because of curves it's more like 1.75 always used helper on most eastbounds.
Wow that's absolutely awesome and did you feel the ground shaking
That is cool train watching
I sped the video up to help the train a bit!
😆
You know how they say it takes a mile to stop a long freight train? Well, it would take 2 hours to stop this one!
Jaw Tooth lol
Jaw Tooth Not right here! It would stop as soon as he cut power!!!!Just. Wham!Dead stop!!!!
I think it would take all of 30 seconds to stop this one
Wooosh
one thing about this he can't back down the hill and get a running start like you can with a truck or a car; it ball to the wall and let it take it one step at a time until it get to the top. the its smooth sailing as we say. thanks for a very good video.
An audio feast ! well recorded
you can see the wheel slip on the ends of the axles!
The wipers are moving faster than the train :(
But not as smooth
Great shots of the wheels slipping at 3:00.
The best vídeo of TH-cam the trains
HA! wiper do remind me of my old Autocar!
Daniel Kennedy I was thinking the same thing
Primitive!
Zoran Cosic
Go back under your bridge, troll
Zoran Cosic
Wow, how unoriginal. You're not even good at being a troll.
@@zorancosic1237 You Are primitive, many people seem to be born yesterday and want easy things. And old F units From 1940's & 1950's, was there complaints?
Is the engineer throwing sand on the tracks?
John David my thoughts exactly, I'd be using them sanders
dynamics kicked in right in front of you.... nice. :)
I heard them, and said to myself, "Why dynamics going uphill? Then realized, probably just running the fans for more cooling air circulation. Was I right?
I am surprised no one got out and pushed.
That is painful to watch!
5:30 that sound is a hand brake on one of the rail cars that was not released
Phillip Taylor they leave hand brake slightly on in case the train stalls so it doesn’t slide back.
@@MattsTrainArchivewhat? That can’t be a thing. It’s just adding resistance to the train while also destroying the brakes. The automatic brake would suffice.
Great video. Great sounds. Wet rails..perfect.
Always so impressive to watch these beasts working on their fullest strength.
All that wheel spin!
These drags are so brutal when it's late at night and you got caught going to work with no sleep. Keep passing out in between the rsc going off. UGH. These guys got damn lucky if they got down to half a mile and hour and kept going. It's not often you get that low and don't stall out.
2kanchoo I know right... those damn heaters are about the worst thing too they’ll put you to sleep in a matter of minutes... I used to try and set the distance counter and count out 50 foot increments to keep myself busy and do the math to try and figure out the exact speed, when you have nothing but time it’s never a waste to do something to keep yourself busy :D
Haha, yessir. Peg the amp meter and hold her there until it pulls or lets the smoke out 😂
Josh H. Lol burn the leads up... make em glow red...
2kanchoo. Yessir. Lol. I work for UP as a machinist. It’s amazing what 1500 amps do to the leads during heavy pulls. I remember a derailment I worked a few years back, where two C44-9s were used to re-rail loaded rock cars. I’ll never forget seeing the traction motor leads twist, buck, and jump when the engineer laid into the power. They looked like a snake with the head cut off.
I’m not a fan of the C44’s at all, but I was surprised to see how well they pulled though.
Josh H. I know they jump around like crazy... amazing what a piece of inch and a quartor copper will do when you start putting the amps to it.... I’ve watched them steam in the middle of winter and when it’s raining and wonder what the hell the jacket is made out of that it doesn’t instantly crisp... I worked in the northeast, new castle sub
It's raining, the wheels are idling. Running without stopping. great.
Cool thanks mate
Are wimdshield wipers working with air, looks working same way like old trucks?
yeah, air motors on the wipers. Most if not all loco wipers are air.
yes they are
I hate those air things! It should be electric! It is 21 century RR!
Yes I know air povered windshield wipers from trucks. They are never working like want, too fast or too slow, also not very reliable. Good that nowdays trucks have electric vipers. only good of those was that when broken could make rope wipers.
Freaking junk!
more sand !
gary mathews go to the beach
excellent shot and place to take shots, a question that you use video camera?
5*
Woow the moving train like Epic Struggle on cowan Bank Locomotive! Cool.
Why didn't they just stick a couple more engines on it?
the GOOPER Cost or availability, always one of those
+brosk1s Makes sense.
Restricted by how many powered axles you can have pulling.
+george50 I didn't realize that could be restricted.
It is on NS.
Needs a couple more engines.
I suppose dispatch knew that would happen. But, yeah, a couple of helpers mid train seems like I good idea. That much tension in a curve, wow.
More engines, more sanders, more speed.
good spot to be on a rainy day
Nice catch :-)
I don't think it matters that both units are DC or even Diesel as they are clearly right at the limit of adhesion. No additional horsepower (electric) or low speed tractive effort (AC) would help unless you can put more weight on more wheels.
technology is keeping those dc motors from frying, that's why there are no fires!!
AC does matter ... at a given weight on wheels, and at adhesion limits, you can run the AC motor real slow without burning up the motor. The DC motor will de-rate, reducing tractive effort. AC motors have superior wheel slip at a given weight on wheels so the AC wheels will "grab" the rails more effectively than DC. In my opinion the only reason this consist is even making it up the grade is because the front unit is an AC unit. AC, advanced wheel slip, and sand are hard to beat at these slow speeds with heavy consists.
Jeff ... yes that is one of the advantages of AC. The AC will slip like DC once past creep but it wont slip much cause the rotor (wheel) can't turn faster than the stator field. A DC motor can slip (speed up) all it wants until computer de-rates it. AC creep/slip control is more "fined tuned" (responsive) compared to DC systems. Also ... at slow speed DC motors pull in more current and they heat up at slow speeds, so computer has to re-rate and back off current (torque). I bet this consist we're looking at, the front unit is at full limits of adhesion and tractive effort for wet rail while the trialing unit is de-rated and not pulling it's share. Both units are slipping but my bet is that the front unit is "digging in" more effectively (utilizing wheel creep more effectively). Dr Reason .. please chime in
Dc series motor do have brushes (commutator) which change the field direction ... you're right about the physics. It all about "magnets chasing magnets" creating torque. But a DC series motor relies on CEMF (back voltage created from rotor speed)) to keep rotor and field current in check. At low speed since rotor isn't turning fast the CEMF is low, with lower back voltage, so the motor pulls in more current ...more heat, so computer de-rates motors. Also as motor slows down there is more torque, and more tendency to slip. I disagree your comment about taking a load away from a DC series motor ... if you did the rotor would speed up and torque would decrease not increase. AC motor (induction) has no commutator ... the stator field sweeps around the rotor inducing rotor current, and rotor current causes a field that gets dragged around and almost catches up to stator field (air gap slip angle). At slow speed the inverters simply adjust the frequency and amplitude of stator voltage until rotor current stabilizes at the required torque/speed required. I'm not knocking DC systems ... their creep/slip systems are very good, it's just that AC motors are better at the game, especially at slow speeds. No brushes to burn up or copper to melt and very effective frequency/voltage control. A DC motor does not have a frequency that gets controlled .. you just have to monitor creep/slip and back off the excitation. The two units are both at the limits of their adhesion, its just that the lead AC unit operates better at the limit, and operates closer to the limit while the trailing DC unit "dances" around the limit. I bet the trailing unit is also de-rated because of current/temperature limits.
Right on.
This is what it's like to run a speeder flat out up a 2.5% grade. Barely making it to the top!
Major props to Dave Deamond!
Incroyable vidéo . Il faut savoir doser l'effort de traction jusqu'à la limite d'adhérence . Beau boulot !
"Honey? I'm gonna be a little late for dinner..."
Defiantly safe to jump on. The rule of thumb is if you can't count the three bolts on a wheel it's to fast
Hey, way back in the 50's I read the book. Now I've seen the movie. I think I can, I think I can. I knew I could, I knew I could.
I think the fact they didn’t get a knuckle is pretty impressive. Take out the rain, and there wouldn’t have been as much of a struggle I’m sure.
All they had to do is push harder on the console. That's what I would have done.
No more engines need 4 engines no doing that or it will derail
Even on the throttle they had now they were wheel slipping when it passed the bridge.
See the one above clouds bikes, thats me when i had no grammar
Pushing harder on the console will do nothing.
They were probably on N8 but if the train does not have DPU's the cars could flip, so N5 it is (I'm guessing)
Nice! Gutting it out. I'll take that over fast running on the flats any day. Mountain railroading is the best. If that is SR 115, the entire train is wrapped around an S-curve. See Map: goo.gl/maps/ZBdsojCMtU6g8zMB7
When we were out in Montana last fall, we got to see a lot of BNSF and MRL trains slogging up some stiff grades. Train would blow by us along the highway on the flats, but soon as the terrain got bumpy we'd get caught up and pretty soon there's five units slogging away full blast trying to get upgrade. Dramatic stuff.
Amazing location. Without traction control tech that would likely have stalled out. James.
The two pair of wipers work separately. In over words, you can turn the wipers on to wipe one window only so all four of them don’t start at the same time. They have to be turned on separately as a pair