Doubtful this will ever reach the attention of any engineers who don’t already know this. But a trick I’ve used especially on transfer runs where I’ve had huge cuts to move and limited HP to move them with is simply to reverse back into the consist to intentionally run the slack in. Then roll forward around 5 MPH but maintaining notch 2 or 3 depending on the circumstances. What this allows you to do is get a percentage of the consist moving before the slack runs out which consequently allows you to use that momentum plus your units HP to help ‘jump start’ the rest of your train into motion. As long as you utilize common sense with the throttle and speed you won’t exert a shock load high enough to cause issues unless you already had a weak knuckle in consist and it’s a hell of a lot better to find it on a class track than out on the main anyway. -Over two decades working for UP.
There is something majestic about seeing these beasts struggling to move that is impossible to describe, it's incredible thinking the amount of research humanity put into creating these machines and the fact everyday the logistics sector keeps the world moving at just the right pace for things to be considered "normal", so that industries may get their resources on time and packages be delivered at the right place at the expected/promised time. It's like there is an actual personal effort the engines are putting in place, kind of like when you try to start up your own car after the battery died, pushing and pushing until you get it moving *because you have to do it*, the world, your world, depends on it and you are putting each and every amount of force you can into it: these locomotives are doing that too, it makes them seem kind of alive rather than just some piece of machinery, in my personal opinion it's motivating... doing everyday what I have to do because the world needs me to do it and to not stop because I think it's too hard/heavy to do.
As impressive as it is to watch these things start a heavy train and climb a hill at 5mph, what's scary is that how fast these locomotives actually are! They don't look it, but they can fly down the track! We have a stretch along the south part of BNSF's Thayer Subdivision that runs from about Portia to West Memphis, Arkansas that is not only level, but virtually straight and it's not uncommon for trains to hit 60mph or higher on this stretch. I was at Bay, Arkansas dropping a crew off and as I was turning around to leave, a Z train appeared at track speed and roared by just a couple of feet in front of me, I literally never heard it coming, talk about a wake up call!
I don't know, but I think it make sense, because the train is heavy and slightly moving backwards so that the sand can get under the wheel. I mean how can the sand increase friction if it's not going under the wheels. Sorry for bad english
@@tracypanavia4634 On trains that have stopped on a decent grade say 0.80 percent and you are pretty much at max tonnage without helpers or distributed power (head end power only) It might to take all the power you have to get the train moving. I'm talking about say a coal train with three motors on the head end and 125 cars, that's almost 18.000 tons. The drawbar and knuckle stress are at its greatest. The further you get from the motors, the less trailing tons there is behind each car. I hope this makes some kind of sense to you. I'm not the best at trying to explain my thoughts. LOL.
@@VD-zn1ed that’s why they are designed to move 6 inches before exerting force on the car. Without this mechanic, the solid iron couplings would shatter from the thousands of tons of weight
I really like how the loco is bouncing up and down under such high stress. Around 180 tons of live machine moving like this gives an idea about the extreme forces involved.
I once took the Train from Macchu Picchu in Peru. It is steep uphill nearly all the way and the track and train were very poorly maintained. It took maybe 40 minutes to release the brakes from standstill, so the Engineer rode the throttle at the stops to stop the train running back downhill. It was quite a feat for the passengers to embark and disembark with the train surging back and forth at the platforms! The train consistently used to run up to 6 hours late - every day.
What some people aren’t realizing is that 1804 is the only unit online. That unit pulled that whole train out of a stall on its own. Those locomotives get a lot of hate, but they’re tough. Out on NS’s Buchanan Branch, coal trains usually hit the top of the hill at 8-11mph. Every time I’ve seen an ACC on the hill, they crest at 14-18.
@@msnpassjan2004 They make a really distinctive sound when they're working hard. People were saying they're offline because moving from a stop like this would fry their traction motors. Could also be NS trying to save power.
What I find more interesting than the sand and the wheel spin is the suspension loading as the traction motors attempt to heave the train forward, and then fail. Watch as the connecting rods next to each axle force the truck frame to pitch up and down. Amazing shots! The HTC-R trucks shown here don't have the axles pushing directly on the cast shape of the trucks frame like older locomotives. Instead they each have a connecting rod below the frame that transfers those forces. The center axle's connecting rod is connected directly to the truck frame making it rigid. But the front & rear axles connecting rods are instead are attached to a pinned cross bar that allows the axle to steer with the radius of a curve. The front & rear crossbars are connected together inside the truck to ensure the 3 axle truck only steers in a radial pattern (If front axle steers left, the rear axle steers right). Also notice the HTC-R's secondary suspension which consists of the rubber bellows looking springs that connect the truck to the frame. All the weight rests on these rubber pads, and they twist/deflect considerably as the locomotive negotiates tight curves.
I don't know much about trains. However, there's a set of tracks near my house that I have to cross over pretty frequently and I can tell you one thing: They keep getting longer and longer as the years go by.
@@AethernaLuxen rail companies are moving to less frequent longer trains and single-tracking a lot of lines. The rail companies have no incentives to improve infrastructure. IMO the government needs to buy out the right-of-ways and give rail the same love they give the interstate highways, but that sort of thing has no political momentum behind it because the average voter doesn't ever see the impact of our bad rail infrastructure the same way they would see if the highway was falling apart. Continuing the metaphor, imagine if the trucking companies had monopolies on all the highways...yikes.
Beautifully captured, the measure of the pulling power in some way illustrated by how the loco lifts up on its bogies a measure too of the amount of traction on the rails and the wheel slip controls that it doesn't just spin the wheels all the time, impressive
Great video! I am somewhat new to railfanning, and this is the first time I saw or even knew about engines having the ability to blow sand like that. Thanks for the education!
On snowy or icy days when we were the first job on duty to switch a yard we used to run engine light on the leads and drop sand without moving tonnage. Sort of 'pre-sanding'. I've also been in situations where the sanders are out on a locomotive and we would literally take bags of sand and spread it manually (short line railroading with older power)
A good demonstration of the AC traction at work. Very finely controlled wheelslip and trying to rock the train forward. The lead loco would be doing most of the work getting the train rolling while the other two tried to avoid cooking their DC traction motors.
As an electrical engineer who does variable speed AC motor speed control, you have no idea the amount of math going on behind the scenes, in real time, by the traction inverters to make that motor spin with that level of torque and to tolerate the reverse rotation with forward rotation applied... I damn near crushed my mouse watching those wheels work!
With the introduction of ac traction came computer controlled traction systems, and modern ac locomotives are very good at detecting wheelslip. Using wheel creep technology. This looks like an older ac unit, 1st gen like an sd70mac. Slower to detect and correct a wheel slip than an sd70ace for example. And the ge's don't seem to be running at all. No sound or smoke.
Think you’re right they weren’t making a lot of noise. Think the brake was still releasing at the start once fully released it seemed to lift pretty well if only the lead loco was pumping it would have taken a long time to release
It still amazes me that these things can even move with steel to steel contact and i cannot believe these things don't rollover while moving at speed. I am a truck driver and it takes almost nothing to roll a truck. crazy how things work. Like how a plane can fly but a human cannot. just amazing.
coefficient of friction of track's material and, railway engine's locomotive wheels is different. Same is the case with truck's tyre and the road. Truck driver use chain on there truck's wheels to increase friction in other words to increase coefficient of friction. On Icy road, muddy road, or road on which oil is spilt etc friction between vehicle's wheels and road is minimum, we need a balance between friction between road and wheel to maintain traction. Here loco pilot sprays sand to gain traction.
Yeah I remember the good old days of bronze bearing and oil pans. I've seen "hotboxes" burn down wooden boxcars in my day. I've seen them red-hot at night from a hundred yards away, streaming smoke along the rails for miles. Used to be you could alert the guys in the caboose by holding your nose and pointing at their train . Bye bye caboose you have been replace by trackside sensors.
That was darn fascinating! It was interesting to the suspension system of the locomotive “bounce”. ‘Much like watching a driver stuck in snow. Very cool video!!
What gets me is the kinda torque those traction motors must make to get the WHEELS SLIPPING even under all that weight. Bloody hell, trains are fascinating!!!
According to the data I found these new locomotives have a starting tractive effort of 203,000 lbf (903,000 N). The wheel diameter is 42" (107 cm) which yields a maximum torque of 355,000 foot pounds (482,000 Nm). Absolutely ridiculous amounts of torque. For comparison sake this is nearly a thousand times the torque of a Ford F150.
It was a great "I think I can moment!" Hearing the turbocharger winding up and the horn blast when the units started moving, as if to say, "I knew I could!"
I had a similar situation happen to me in Trainz 2019. I honestly didn't think a train could rock back and forth like that, because that's what mine did in the game!
The joy of precision railroading. Let’s max these trains out at 12 to 14k long and put more west and tear on the equipment for the next couple years to make money and then pull out when all the shit breaks
I wonder if the other two loco's were dead or what. I can tell ya the very first thing I would have done would be to go back and turn one of the other two to run then continued on my merry way with ease lol. Having to throttle up this high just to move greatly increases your chances of getting a knuckle. Have the loco slip and the slack run back a bit then dig in and lurch forward. Not a good time.
Excellent video showing the suspension loading and unloading as the traction management system puts power to the traction motor and then takes it away cyclically to prevent wheel spin. It seems though that this particular EMD system is maybe too restrictive as these guys can’t get any forward progress for a couple of minutes. It would have been nice to see what the GE wheels were doing.
The lurch and jerk technique has been an EMD staple since the Siemens powered MACs. Gonna be real, chief, it ain't great. Give me the equivalent AC GE and it'd had started with less drama. A lot more ear raping screech as the creep does it's thing, but no knuckle-testing lurches.
YOU ARE THE GOAT for warning us headphone users about the imminent horn so we could turn down the volume!!!! My hearing and I cannot thank you enough for that simple little consideration that has caused me to block other YT filmmakers for NOT having that consideration. So, thank you! Again!
I don't know if it is the audio or what, but I didn't hear those two trailing GE units pulling. The only unit I heard doing anything was the leading EMD. If so, that would make sense of why it had such a hard time getting things rolling.
Train was not "stalled". It was simply stopped and trying to get the whole train moving. A train stalls when it is under power and speed is reduced to a stall, by way of track elevation or losing an engine.
Can we build a gear starter? Sliping wheels is the worst think. Can we connect gear for few meters to make first move? Somethink like gear between wheels and flat gear between rails pulled up by pistons.
1:43 "Don't forget Stepney's tip about sand. Lay it on the rails as you back down, and roll it firm with your wheels. You get a splendid grip that way."
I was just going to say this, as I was looking for this comment... roll back one engine length sanding, or better still, sand as you come to a stop, as you won't have to drift backwards.
@@hazardeur I'm guessing you live in a dry hot climate? In winter we put sand or fine gravel on ice and snow covered roads to increase traction. Same is true here. The actual contact patch of the wheel and the rail head is very small, by putting sand on it, you're spreading that area out, and also roughing up that nearly polished surface between the wheel tread and the rail head. If you put down too much sand it can be an impediment, but in small doses it really helps out a lot.
@@kleetus92 i'm actually living in the heart of europe so it's not too hot and also not very dry, mostly the opposite actually. I just have no idea or experience with this topic haha. But with your explanation makes a lot of sense to me now, thanks! It's all about that dosage, just has to be the right amount.
They only have one engine running the other 2 are isolated bunch of fra bullshit this is why u need 2 running on big and heavy train like that it’s cooking the traction motors letting the head engine do all the work and just makes things more complicated.
Another Hot-dogger hogger who goes from idle to run 8 and lets the electronics handle the rest. Whenever the wheel slip indicator comes on even on the oldest engines, they automatically activate the sanders briefly. When the wheels are slipping constantly, the newer systems will force the governor to cut back to half power and then re-engage once all the wheels are synchronous, which at a start like this is a complete stop. It's really hard on the equipment to have to switch from 100% power to 0% and then back to 100%. A seasoned engineer that doesn't intentionally break stuff knows this and would not have used the wheel slip indicator to activate sand, nor would they have stayed in Run 8 while trying to get started. This sort of behavior is the new wave of railroading though. Crews are no longer expected to think outside the box and use the tools that are right there in their hands. Instead they are given the threat of losing their job and forced to put on a good show for the cameras and event recorders only. When I came to work for the railroad, when I hired out there was still pride in the job. Engineers dressed like well mannered gentlemen and their focus was to do a good job, by handling the train in a safe and efficient manner so that they got done as quickly as possible without anyone getting hurt or anything breaking. Today, it's a different aspect of railroading where engineers come to work, constantly looking over their shoulder, knowing fully well they wear a target on their back.
Typical GM Trash, a GE would have no issues. These have a terrible traction management system this combined with their water pump failures make them one of the worst locomotives ever built
When stopping on a grade with a heavy load we are taught to lay sand for the last loco length as the train comes to a stand. Makes starting off easier.
None of these units have the starting tractive effort of a AC4400, or a ACGEVO. A dash 9 is barely better than a dash 8 at getting a train moving. Nice close ups.
The SD70MAC and the SD70ACe can top the AC4400CW and ES44AC, at least that what many of the BNSF crews tell me. They'll say both the MAC and ACe will keep pulling long after the GEs quit!
I remember reading about early diesel-electric locomotives in Britain, none had didn't any wheel slip warning system. So when slipping started, engine drivers had no idea, this caused terrible wheel-burn damage to the track. There were several derailments caused by burnt rails breaking, it took a while before track maintenance crews realised what was going on.
@@iceclimberGD As luck would have it in those days all trains used screw link or instanter couplings which had a fair amount of slack each so you could grab a couple of mph before the entire consist was moving on a big train - the downside was you may well put the guard in the van at the back flat on his backside if you got too rough with it which didn't make you very popular!
200kpa or so of independent can reduce the tendency for the wheels to slip during a hard start like that, this keeps the tractive effort there for longer and allows you to build a higher amperage/KN, especially with older DC GE's as they tend to just fully drop the load with the slightest wheel slip. Also helps if the train brakes are fully pumped off too, as i suspect was the problem here.
Think you’re right about the brakes it seemed to lift fairly well in the end. Bit dicey stalling up DC traction like that was a long walk back for us if a mid-train loco derated on you happy days 🚂🚂
The wheels with the sand blowing in from in front and actually making it between the wheel and the rail are not slipping - the traction aid appears to be working. The wheels where the sand is blowing in from behind, and thus uselessly ending up on the rail behind the wheel, are the ones that are slipping. My guess is the slipping wheel is what tells the traction control to back off acceleration. The loco rocks back and forth for a while, slowly making some headway until the slipping wheels reach the sand blown in from the leading nozzle, at which point they gain traction, stop slipping and allow the whole thing to get moving. I wonder if placing twice as many sand nozzles, so that each wheel always has it's own leading nozzle (regardless of its orientation), and blowing sand in only from the leading nozzle (the trailing nozzle appears to be useless, until the loco is turned around) gets it going any sooner. I also wonder if applying power to only those wheels with leading nozzles, while disabling those without, would prevent a "slipping" signal from being sent to the computer, thus preventing the premature disconnection of power. The traction control computer should do that automatically.
Great video !! Here's a question for you engineers out there: when applying sand in a MU setup does application of sand in the lead unit cause sand in the trailing units also ? James.
The rocking while attempting to get traction reminds me a lot of my semi truck. When it's got traction, the lower gears can really lean the cab to the side from engine torque. But in low traction situations when you're trying to get rolling, you'll often have a similar movement as shown here, just side to side instead. It can be really jarring if you suddenly break traction under load. I once was climbing a hill on a backroad in Pennsylvania and was fully loaded. It was snowing heavily and near the crest of the hill the truck started bucking like a bronco because it was starting to slip on the hill. It was a stressful moment.
I remember when we started getting ac4400's. We would stop behind a crossing until the dispatcher told us to come to town. From a dead stop with 105 loaded coal cars. 2 engines on the head end. come out to throttle 4 and release the independent brakes, move to throttle 6 and release the automatic(train) brakes. It would slowly begin to move. Then to full throttle. Going over the same crossing without stopping notch 8 we would be down to 12-14 mph.
Doubtful this will ever reach the attention of any engineers who don’t already know this. But a trick I’ve used especially on transfer runs where I’ve had huge cuts to move and limited HP to move them with is simply to reverse back into the consist to intentionally run the slack in. Then roll forward around 5 MPH but maintaining notch 2 or 3 depending on the circumstances. What this allows you to do is get a percentage of the consist moving before the slack runs out which consequently allows you to use that momentum plus your units HP to help ‘jump start’ the rest of your train into motion. As long as you utilize common sense with the throttle and speed you won’t exert a shock load high enough to cause issues unless you already had a weak knuckle in consist and it’s a hell of a lot better to find it on a class track than out on the main anyway.
-Over two decades working for UP.
I didn't know that! Thanks for the info!
Have done that quite a few times. We called it taking slack. Depends on the situation your in sometimes we would cut power off and sand the hill.
Would have to be very careful. The yards I mainly shunt in are on a 1% grade so can’t take slack.
I just assumed they all did that.
@@sth475 take a minimum reduction and shove back into the train to take slack.
There is something majestic about seeing these beasts struggling to move that is impossible to describe, it's incredible thinking the amount of research humanity put into creating these machines and the fact everyday the logistics sector keeps the world moving at just the right pace for things to be considered "normal", so that industries may get their resources on time and packages be delivered at the right place at the expected/promised time.
It's like there is an actual personal effort the engines are putting in place, kind of like when you try to start up your own car after the battery died, pushing and pushing until you get it moving *because you have to do it*, the world, your world, depends on it and you are putting each and every amount of force you can into it: these locomotives are doing that too, it makes them seem kind of alive rather than just some piece of machinery, in my personal opinion it's motivating... doing everyday what I have to do because the world needs me to do it and to not stop because I think it's too hard/heavy to do.
I love that point .... I always view machines as living things . Maybe it why I get attached to my cars emotionally. Lol
Bro idk how I got here, but I'm so high and I legit cheered on a locomotive. hell yeah
Hell yeah!!
FUN FACT:
This train number is 1804, which is the year the first steam train was invented
As impressive as it is to watch these things start a heavy train and climb a hill at 5mph, what's scary is that how fast these locomotives actually are! They don't look it, but they can fly down the track! We have a stretch along the south part of BNSF's Thayer Subdivision that runs from about Portia to West Memphis, Arkansas that is not only level, but virtually straight and it's not uncommon for trains to hit 60mph or higher on this stretch. I was at Bay, Arkansas dropping a crew off and as I was turning around to leave, a Z train appeared at track speed and roared by just a couple of feet in front of me, I literally never heard it coming, talk about a wake up call!
I took a trip to the Thayer sub last year, they sure do go fast up there! Thanks for watching!
@@iceclimberGD wow, super cool! If you're back in the area again, look out for a Railcrew Express van, you never know, I might just be in it!
@@randallellison6421 Will do! I loved that area, will definitely be back at some point.
dammit,that's a nice bit of driving..👍
the horse power isnt the issue here, its the traction, they are minimizing damage by slipping
You can't beat the horns on the American locos....
best roadblocks in america
Very nice video, and double thanks for the horn warning.
Only one engine running and rocking like a car stuck in snow is a rough way to get going.
Wow , what do they do in Fall ore Winter when the Track is greasy ?
It is essential not to allow wheel slip if not controlled the traction motors will flash over.
This is why they don't stop when someone cross the railroad .. they hate to do it all over again
Probably would’ve helped if those GEs were online, which it did not sound like they were
Bet when it did start to move the engineer said , not stopping now for and cars. get her done.
why is the sandblower on backwards ?
I don't know, but I think it make sense, because the train is heavy and slightly moving backwards so that the sand can get under the wheel. I mean how can the sand increase friction if it's not going under the wheels.
Sorry for bad english
i first thought it was CGI / train-simulator game.
I found myself actually rooting for the locomotives. "You can do it!"
"I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. Choo choo!"
@@-.._.-_...-_.._-..__..._.-.-.- You took my answer! lol
same here lol
@@-.._.-_...-_.._-..__..._.-.-.- Maaaannn, that's takes me way back...
Me to was intense ooo jus a little more come on you got thes
This is when you find out how good the knuckles are in the head 15 or 20 cars are. If there are any weak ones, you'll find it. LOL.
Explain please, I'm really interested🙂
@@tracypanavia4634 On trains that have stopped on a decent grade say 0.80 percent and you are pretty much at max tonnage without helpers or distributed power (head end power only) It might to take all the power you have to get the train moving. I'm talking about say a coal train with three motors on the head end and 125 cars, that's almost 18.000 tons. The drawbar and knuckle stress are at its greatest. The further you get from the motors, the less trailing tons there is behind each car. I hope this makes some kind of sense to you. I'm not the best at trying to explain my thoughts. LOL.
@@old56timer ah yes! That makes a lot of sense, thank you. Never thought about the different loads before.
@@VD-zn1ed that’s why they are designed to move 6 inches before exerting force on the car. Without this mechanic, the solid iron couplings would shatter from the thousands of tons of weight
@@g0tsp33d yes they will. The couplings aren’t designed to have up to 12,000 tons or more. They would break easily
Listening to a locomotive wind up is just about the coolest shit in existence, even small locos, literally power incarnate.
My thoughts exactly.
Average person listening to a diesel at notch 8: WOW! Railfan listening to a SD45 at notch 8: (( needs cigarette and shower afterwards ))
i must agree with this
That, and jet powered aircraft
You should hear gar turbine spool up on a frigate!
I really like how the loco is bouncing up and down under such high stress. Around 180 tons of live machine moving like this gives an idea about the extreme forces involved.
that unit was doing the congo line!!!! they have been ballasted to 216 tons when converted to AC.
I don't care for it
whats really amazing is the amount of traction steel on steel has and can move around that much.
@@oooltra nobody asked lol
I once took the Train from Macchu Picchu in Peru. It is steep uphill nearly all the way and the track and train were very poorly maintained. It took maybe 40 minutes to release the brakes from standstill, so the Engineer rode the throttle at the stops to stop the train running back downhill. It was quite a feat for the passengers to embark and disembark with the train surging back and forth at the platforms! The train consistently used to run up to 6 hours late - every day.
Holy cow that sounds intense
Probably two locomotives at the back stalled out
What some people aren’t realizing is that 1804 is the only unit online. That unit pulled that whole train out of a stall on its own. Those locomotives get a lot of hate, but they’re tough. Out on NS’s Buchanan Branch, coal trains usually hit the top of the hill at 8-11mph. Every time I’ve seen an ACC on the hill, they crest at 14-18.
Awesome! They're one of my favorite locomotives.
9975 and 9811 weren’t powered on?
Just wondering, how do know the other two units were not on and why were they not on ?
@@markgloverville probably the engine sound
@@msnpassjan2004 They make a really distinctive sound when they're working hard. People were saying they're offline because moving from a stop like this would fry their traction motors. Could also be NS trying to save power.
What I find more interesting than the sand and the wheel spin is the suspension loading as the traction motors attempt to heave the train forward, and then fail. Watch as the connecting rods next to each axle force the truck frame to pitch up and down. Amazing shots! The HTC-R trucks shown here don't have the axles pushing directly on the cast shape of the trucks frame like older locomotives. Instead they each have a connecting rod below the frame that transfers those forces. The center axle's connecting rod is connected directly to the truck frame making it rigid. But the front & rear axles connecting rods are instead are attached to a pinned cross bar that allows the axle to steer with the radius of a curve. The front & rear crossbars are connected together inside the truck to ensure the 3 axle truck only steers in a radial pattern (If front axle steers left, the rear axle steers right). Also notice the HTC-R's secondary suspension which consists of the rubber bellows looking springs that connect the truck to the frame. All the weight rests on these rubber pads, and they twist/deflect considerably as the locomotive negotiates tight curves.
Oh, cool! I hadn't noticed that!
@@iceclimberGD yea it was interesting to see the whole front move down each rock of the train
That was amazing to watch!
I don't know much about trains. However, there's a set of tracks near my house that I have to cross over pretty frequently and I can tell you one thing: They keep getting longer and longer as the years go by.
For my case, they get less frequent
If only the same could be said for me...
And the rail cars themselves are longer as well.
@@AethernaLuxen rail companies are moving to less frequent longer trains and single-tracking a lot of lines. The rail companies have no incentives to improve infrastructure. IMO the government needs to buy out the right-of-ways and give rail the same love they give the interstate highways, but that sort of thing has no political momentum behind it because the average voter doesn't ever see the impact of our bad rail infrastructure the same way they would see if the highway was falling apart. Continuing the metaphor, imagine if the trucking companies had monopolies on all the highways...yikes.
@@ekulio No I mean, last year a train can be heard near my house twice a day. But now it almost never appears anymore
Beautifully captured, the measure of the pulling power in some way illustrated by how the loco lifts up on its bogies a measure too of the amount of traction on the rails and the wheel slip controls that it doesn't just spin the wheels all the time, impressive
Great video! I am somewhat new to railfanning, and this is the first time I saw or even knew about engines having the ability to blow sand like that. Thanks for the education!
Thanks! Glad I could show you something new!
I’ve seen steamers do it but never saw it from a diesel electric before.
That's what one or more of the domes on old steam engines are for - storing sand for traction.
On snowy or icy days when we were the first job on duty to switch a yard we used to run engine light on the leads and drop sand without moving tonnage. Sort of 'pre-sanding'. I've also been in situations where the sanders are out on a locomotive and we would literally take bags of sand and spread it manually (short line railroading with older power)
There's much to learn, Grasshopper.
"horn warning" is brilliant! Thanks.
My wife appreciates the warning.....
Still get a tear in my eye when I hear an old train in the night!
Insane what these trains can do! I unload railcars with vehicles in them so I'm around them all the time. Super impressive what they can do.
A good demonstration of the AC traction at work. Very finely controlled wheelslip and trying to rock the train forward. The lead loco would be doing most of the work getting the train rolling while the other two tried to avoid cooking their DC traction motors.
As an electrical engineer who does variable speed AC motor speed control, you have no idea the amount of math going on behind the scenes, in real time, by the traction inverters to make that motor spin with that level of torque and to tolerate the reverse rotation with forward rotation applied... I damn near crushed my mouse watching those wheels work!
@@kleetus92 no he does. Stop trying to show off.
@@kishascape Lol... ok calm down keyboard warrior.
Nobody cares if you are an engineer. Go fix the space shuttle O-Rings that you clowns messed up.
Modern AC inverters are insane. Even at low power levels. Servo drives are even crazier…
The sound is amazing!
With the introduction of ac traction came computer controlled traction systems, and modern ac locomotives are very good at detecting wheelslip. Using wheel creep technology. This looks like an older ac unit, 1st gen like an sd70mac. Slower to detect and correct a wheel slip than an sd70ace for example.
And the ge's don't seem to be running at all. No sound or smoke.
Think you’re right they weren’t making a lot of noise. Think the brake was still releasing at the start once fully released it seemed to lift pretty well if only the lead loco was pumping it would have taken a long time to release
It's an older unit but it still checks out
The unit is actually a SD70ACC, which are rebuilt SD70s with modern AC traction electronics added. The wheelslip system is brand new.
It still amazes me that these things can even move with steel to steel contact and i cannot believe these things don't rollover while moving at speed.
I am a truck driver and it takes almost nothing to roll a truck.
crazy how things work.
Like how a plane can fly but a human cannot. just amazing.
Yeah, it really is a marvel of engineering.
coefficient of friction of track's material and, railway engine's locomotive wheels is different. Same is the case with truck's tyre and the road. Truck driver use chain on there truck's wheels to increase friction in other words to increase coefficient of friction. On Icy road, muddy road, or road on which oil is spilt etc friction between vehicle's wheels and road is minimum, we need a balance between friction between road and wheel to maintain traction. Here loco pilot sprays sand to gain traction.
Tanker truck driver here, I'm really curious about the surge from fluid containers
@@vainglory991 Baffles
The planes in Spain fall mainly in the rain .
Every time I look at the bogies on a train it reminds me of my Dad, 37 years at Timken Roller Bearing RR division, way to go Dad 👍🇺🇸
Yeah I remember the good old days of bronze bearing and oil pans. I've seen "hotboxes" burn down wooden boxcars in my day. I've seen them red-hot at night from a hundred yards away, streaming smoke along the rails for miles. Used to be you could alert the guys in the caboose by holding your nose and pointing at their train . Bye bye caboose you have been replace by trackside sensors.
@@oaktadopbok665 you been around trains for quite some time my friend here’s nothing like them.
The traction control on a modern AC locomotive is truly amazing.
That was darn fascinating! It was interesting to the suspension system of the locomotive “bounce”. ‘Much like watching a driver stuck in snow. Very cool video!!
Thanks for watching, glad you liked it!
The Accounting Department must be assigning locomotives again.
Distributed power is your friend , especially a Locomotive shoving on the rear. Helps to save drawbars and knuckes. 👍
TH-cam: Wanna see how a heavy train struggles to move?
Audiance: Interesting.
I love the sound of EMD power under load.
The amount of weight these engines can move is pretty amazing. A slight up grade full stop to start looks like an art in itself.👍👍
What gets me is the kinda torque those traction motors must make to get the WHEELS SLIPPING even under all that weight. Bloody hell, trains are fascinating!!!
According to the data I found these new locomotives have a starting tractive effort of 203,000 lbf (903,000 N). The wheel diameter is 42" (107 cm) which yields a maximum torque of 355,000 foot pounds (482,000 Nm). Absolutely ridiculous amounts of torque. For comparison sake this is nearly a thousand times the torque of a Ford F150.
These locomotive sounds never get old! I loved them as a kid and continue to love them! Awesome video!
Love how the Engineer shuts the window cause it about to get noisy!
It was a great "I think I can moment!" Hearing the turbocharger winding up and the horn blast when the units started moving, as if to say, "I knew I could!"
I had a similar situation happen to me in Trainz 2019. I honestly didn't think a train could rock back and forth like that, because that's what mine did in the game!
Cool to see they did that right!
The joy of precision railroading. Let’s max these trains out at 12 to 14k long and put more west and tear on the equipment for the next couple years to make money and then pull out when all the shit breaks
The cameraman, instead of helping to push the locomotive, is just filming...
This is a joke right?!
ikr smh
@@rockstarauthority7354 he could have tried at least!
This is joke?
I wonder if the other two loco's were dead or what. I can tell ya the very first thing I would have done would be to go back and turn one of the other two to run then continued on my merry way with ease lol. Having to throttle up this high just to move greatly increases your chances of getting a knuckle. Have the loco slip and the slack run back a bit then dig in and lurch forward. Not a good time.
Excellent video showing the suspension loading and unloading as the traction management system puts power to the traction motor and then takes it away cyclically to prevent wheel spin.
It seems though that this particular EMD system is maybe too restrictive as these guys can’t get any forward progress for a couple of minutes. It would have been nice to see what the GE wheels were doing.
Thanks! Pretty sure the GEs were isolated, they weren't doing anything.
The lurch and jerk technique has been an EMD staple since the Siemens powered MACs. Gonna be real, chief, it ain't great. Give me the equivalent AC GE and it'd had started with less drama. A lot more ear raping screech as the creep does it's thing, but no knuckle-testing lurches.
Bring in two big boys 🤠, they would pull the train like a charm
YOU ARE THE GOAT for warning us headphone users about the imminent horn so we could turn down the volume!!!! My hearing and I cannot thank you enough for that simple little consideration that has caused me to block other YT filmmakers for NOT having that consideration. So, thank you! Again!
You're welcome!! It scared the crap out of me when I had my volume up so I did that to save everyone else lol
interesting i get this video rn and it’s norfolk southern lol
thanks for showing sanding in action...just joined the rail industry so learning alot
Couldn’t the camera man just go and give it a push?
I don't know if it is the audio or what, but I didn't hear those two trailing GE units pulling. The only unit I heard doing anything was the leading EMD. If so, that would make sense of why it had such a hard time getting things rolling.
Yeah, I was sitting next to them for about an hour before they started moving and the GEs never went above idle. Thanks for watching!
@@iceclimberGD Saves fuel.
@@adrianspeeder wtf is the point of them being there if not to spread out power to the rails?
@@slowpoke96Z28 To be used in locations determined by math where one unit isn't enough.
Goes to sow you the tremendous weight trains can carry, and the amount of hp/tractive effort they need to have to be able to pull such a heavy train
¡Impresionante! No tenía conocimiento de la arena para las ruedas y lo dificultoso que era comenzar el desplazamiento. ¡Excelente vídeo!
Yo tambien
Very interesting indeed, I was stepping on gas gas pedal of my house slippers trying to help!
Train was not "stalled". It was simply stopped and trying to get the whole train moving. A train stalls when it is under power and speed is reduced to a stall, by way of track elevation or losing an engine.
Excellent throttle control by the Engineer. Fantastic!
Looks like he doesn't have a full release on train yet..Often done when starting on grade...NECR Retired...
The thing that amaze me the most is the tiny coupler which pulls several tonnes of weight without breaking.
Over 10,000 is not "several".
Can we build a gear starter? Sliping wheels is the worst think. Can we connect gear for few meters to make first move? Somethink like gear between wheels and flat gear between rails pulled up by pistons.
1:43
"Don't forget Stepney's tip about sand. Lay it on the rails as you back down, and roll it firm with your wheels. You get a splendid grip that way."
I was just going to say this, as I was looking for this comment... roll back one engine length sanding, or better still, sand as you come to a stop, as you won't have to drift backwards.
as a noob, why would sand improve grip? wouldn't it be best to have no material between rail and wheel at all? why does sand not make it more slippery
@@hazardeur I'm guessing you live in a dry hot climate? In winter we put sand or fine gravel on ice and snow covered roads to increase traction. Same is true here. The actual contact patch of the wheel and the rail head is very small, by putting sand on it, you're spreading that area out, and also roughing up that nearly polished surface between the wheel tread and the rail head. If you put down too much sand it can be an impediment, but in small doses it really helps out a lot.
@@kleetus92 i'm actually living in the heart of europe so it's not too hot and also not very dry, mostly the opposite actually. I just have no idea or experience with this topic haha. But with your explanation makes a lot of sense to me now, thanks! It's all about that dosage, just has to be the right amount.
Engineer turns to the conductor: "Well? Get out and push!"
Today I learned that trains can blow sand on the tracks to increase traction.
They only have one engine running the other 2 are isolated bunch of fra bullshit this is why u need 2 running on big and heavy train like that it’s cooking the traction motors letting the head engine do all the work and just makes things more complicated.
having sand nozzles at the front of EACH wheel would help.
But the front is sometimes the rear.
I think not all wheels are powered, Nozel is only there on powered wheels.
@@NanoMine Each wheel has it's own traction motor.
It was at this moment I (the Conductor) would go back and double check that our trailing units were online and actually loading.
Another Hot-dogger hogger who goes from idle to run 8 and lets the electronics handle the rest. Whenever the wheel slip indicator comes on even on the oldest engines, they automatically activate the sanders briefly. When the wheels are slipping constantly, the newer systems will force the governor to cut back to half power and then re-engage once all the wheels are synchronous, which at a start like this is a complete stop. It's really hard on the equipment to have to switch from 100% power to 0% and then back to 100%. A seasoned engineer that doesn't intentionally break stuff knows this and would not have used the wheel slip indicator to activate sand, nor would they have stayed in Run 8 while trying to get started.
This sort of behavior is the new wave of railroading though. Crews are no longer expected to think outside the box and use the tools that are right there in their hands. Instead they are given the threat of losing their job and forced to put on a good show for the cameras and event recorders only. When I came to work for the railroad, when I hired out there was still pride in the job. Engineers dressed like well mannered gentlemen and their focus was to do a good job, by handling the train in a safe and efficient manner so that they got done as quickly as possible without anyone getting hurt or anything breaking. Today, it's a different aspect of railroading where engineers come to work, constantly looking over their shoulder, knowing fully well they wear a target on their back.
Typical GM Trash, a GE would have no issues. These have a terrible traction management system this combined with their water pump failures make them one of the worst locomotives ever built
Indian Railways pull double stacking by using 2 electric engines and 1 electric engine in between and they are quick and fast.
If your wondering why the train is wheel slipping, they throw the throttle to fast and then the wheels create wheel slip.
Great video. A question if I may? Are all three locomotives synchronised regarding their throttle settings?
Yes they are controlled from the engineer in the lead engine
I absolutely LOVE to watch a locomotive work. They are the coolest pieces of machinery ever created! Thanks for posting this awesome video.🙂
They almost need a sand nozzle in front of each wheel instead of just the front of the trucks
When stopping on a grade with a heavy load we are taught to lay sand for the last loco length as the train comes to a stand. Makes starting off easier.
I bet the people at the crossway were pissed because the train is crossing so slow.😂😂😂
Now, that’s some good precision railroading! 👍🏻
Call the Ford Lightning im sure he dont mind helping you in your time of need right?
0:25 sounds so nice
EMD 16-710G3 Diesel engine
@@cat_with_sunglass thanks mate :))
That's just like me trying to get out of bed in the morning for work
bahahaha
*That train has 12,800 HP because the lead locomotive is an EMD and has 4,000 HP and not 4,400.*
Technically that engine has 4,500 HP. The gross HP is 4,800.. this was also the only engine pulling. the 2 GEs are Isolated
None of these units have the starting tractive effort of a AC4400, or a ACGEVO. A dash 9 is barely better than a dash 8 at getting a train moving. Nice close ups.
Thanks!
The head one does...
Wrong
The SD70MAC and the SD70ACe can top the AC4400CW and ES44AC, at least that what many of the BNSF crews tell me. They'll say both the MAC and ACe will keep pulling long after the GEs quit!
But why overload the loco in the first place ? Pure greed
I remember reading about early diesel-electric locomotives in Britain, none had didn't any wheel slip warning system. So when slipping started, engine drivers had no idea, this caused terrible wheel-burn damage to the track. There were several derailments caused by burnt rails breaking, it took a while before track maintenance crews realised what was going on.
Holy cow, that must have been terrible to have to fix lol
Have a look at th-cam.com/video/r7gjYXQQN_k/w-d-xo.html !
@@iceclimberGD As luck would have it in those days all trains used screw link or instanter couplings which had a fair amount of slack each so you could grab a couple of mph before the entire consist was moving on a big train - the downside was you may well put the guard in the van at the back flat on his backside if you got too rough with it which didn't make you very popular!
Últimamente esas locomotoras andan en MEXICO
200kpa or so of independent can reduce the tendency for the wheels to slip during a hard start like that, this keeps the tractive effort there for longer and allows you to build a higher amperage/KN, especially with older DC GE's as they tend to just fully drop the load with the slightest wheel slip. Also helps if the train brakes are fully pumped off too, as i suspect was the problem here.
Think you’re right about the brakes it seemed to lift fairly well in the end. Bit dicey stalling up DC traction like that was a long walk back for us if a mid-train loco derated on you happy days 🚂🚂
Can't you just feel the sheer power of these beautiful machines?
The wheels with the sand blowing in from in front and actually making it between the wheel and the rail are not slipping - the traction aid appears to be working.
The wheels where the sand is blowing in from behind, and thus uselessly ending up on the rail behind the wheel, are the ones that are slipping.
My guess is the slipping wheel is what tells the traction control to back off acceleration. The loco rocks back and forth for a while, slowly making some headway until the slipping wheels reach the sand blown in from the leading nozzle, at which point they gain traction, stop slipping and allow the whole thing to get moving.
I wonder if placing twice as many sand nozzles, so that each wheel always has it's own leading nozzle (regardless of its orientation), and blowing sand in only from the leading nozzle (the trailing nozzle appears to be useless, until the loco is turned around) gets it going any sooner.
I also wonder if applying power to only those wheels with leading nozzles, while disabling those without, would prevent a "slipping" signal from being sent to the computer, thus preventing the premature disconnection of power. The traction control computer should do that automatically.
Why do they spray sand on a backside of the last wheel?🤔
Great video !! Here's a question for you engineers out there: when applying sand in a MU setup does application of sand in the lead unit cause sand in the trailing units also ? James.
Hmmm, good question!
No.
Should have released Parking Brake!😁
Brother can you spare a DPU?
The rocking while attempting to get traction reminds me a lot of my semi truck. When it's got traction, the lower gears can really lean the cab to the side from engine torque. But in low traction situations when you're trying to get rolling, you'll often have a similar movement as shown here, just side to side instead. It can be really jarring if you suddenly break traction under load. I once was climbing a hill on a backroad in Pennsylvania and was fully loaded. It was snowing heavily and near the crest of the hill the truck started bucking like a bronco because it was starting to slip on the hill. It was a stressful moment.
Is the sand release an automatic function, or does the engineer take some positive control action (enabling a switch or equivalent) ?
general answer, is both, automatic, and by demand.
I remember when we started getting ac4400's. We would stop behind a crossing until the dispatcher told us to come to town. From a dead stop with 105 loaded coal cars. 2 engines on the head end. come out to throttle 4 and release the independent brakes, move to throttle 6 and release the automatic(train) brakes. It would slowly begin
to move. Then to full throttle. Going over the same crossing without stopping notch 8 we would be down to 12-14 mph.
Just realized that’s Dalton
How sad would it have been if, after the train finally got moving, some jackass blocked the crossing and they had to slam on the brakes?