Did Vegeta Obtain Super Saiyan 2 Before Babidi's Magic?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ย. 2024
- #vegeta #majinvegeta #dragonballz
Could Vegeta transform into Super Saiyan 2 before becoming Majin Vegeta in the Buu Saga? We cover a lot of content within the manga to get the answer. Check it out, and let me know your thoughts and opinions! I hope you enjoy the video!
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Vegeta was already cracking the Super Saiyan barrier with Super Vegeta after only 1 year of training. I find it impossible to believe he wouldn't figure it out in SEVEN years of non-stop training. Especially after witnessing it first hand so he has an idea of what to look for.
No, he had already achieved grade 2 after only a couple of months said by trunks himself when he was telling goku about their training inside the chamber. So just like you said I find it extremely hard to believe that it took vegeta 7 whole years of daily intensive training to reach ssj 2. It just wouldn't make any sense at all.
You say that but why didn't vegeta ever go ssj3 like goku?
If that's the case....
@@BlakeSheldon90 I'd say it's cause he assumed ssj2 was the peak. Which it was until Goku showed up with ssj3. Then by the end of the Buu Saga he saw exactly how useless 3 was. The pros just didn't make up for the cons. Then the god forms came in which were leagues stronger, but not as taxing. That's how I saw it, anyway.
@@LuckyIStar Yh you got a point with the god form being stronger and not as taxing and I see where your coming from. But in my opinion I wonder that he couldn't achieve ssj3 cause during the dbz saga they made vegeta always struggle to keep up with goku and gohan but made up for it during dragon ball super and revamped vegeta to rival goku more.
Its very possible to hit the physical limitations of your body even IF they can go beyond normal means. Vegeta could still beat Gohans ssj2 without himself going ssj2 its just that he couldn't actually transform.
When goku Turned against Yahkon vegeta himself said. “So you too have broken through the super saiyan barrier” implying he himself has also done so.
He wasn’t commenting on that he was mad or jealous or angry but that goku was holding back. Aka he knew goku had ssj2 and wasn’t upset because he also had it.
@worldofsaiyans1285 in Z from gokus arrival on namek onwards vegeta in base was weaker than goku including before and after both of them went in the time chamber.
Tht doesn't imply tht vegeta achieved ssj2 at all.he could have Ben talking about gohan
Ur implying everything with thinking it's about vegeta and tht vegeta had ssj2 .he did not
@worldofsaiyans1285 no that means exactly that babidi control made him unlock ssj2 .vegeta trained for 7 years and was stronger then ssj2 gohan at ssj1 level.
How do people imply this as vegeta having ssj2 .lmao he's merely stating tht goku achieved the form like gohan has. Eveything from the torunament to goku showing off ssj2 shows how vegeta did not have ssj2 ..from vegeta mocking gohans power at ssj2 saying vegeta was stronger then vegeta implying that vegeta at super sayian 1 was stronger. Then vegeta unlocking power which was all though babidid.toriyama wrote it as such and everyone compelty discredit the whole story toriyama was trying to make here.how goku has more potential as in unlocking new forms and vegeta does not. It's even further implied when goku goes ssj3 in buu arc but vegeta does not .smh
I never understood this debate. As soon as Vegeta said he supassed Gohan due to him slacking off training that should make it obvious that Vegeta was a SSJ2. Do people honestly beleive Vegeta supassed SSJ2 Gohan with only SSJ1? Also do people honestly beleive that Vegeta who was a genious couldn't attain SSJ2 after 7 years of constant training?
Yeah it really doesn’t make sense to question if he got it.
@@gliizee I think most people today agree that he was a SSj2, but the idea that he got it only after getting Babidi's power up was probably one of the more enduring misconceptions from early DBZ fandom years
I mean, I'm not saying vegeta hadn't achieved SSJ2, but if you take the form to be a 2x multiplier on SSJ, than all it would take for the edge of SSJ2 vs SSJ to be lost would be for gohan to loose 30% of his strength while vegeta increases his by 50%, which actually sounds astoundingly tame for a 7 years period in dragon ball when one character is "frolicking" while the other trains hard.
So really yeah, I would expect SSJ vegeta to be above SSJ2 gohan by the tournament's time
@@user-sl6gn1ss8p I know Gohan got weaker but I don't think it was by THAT much to the point Vegetas SSJ1 overtook Gohans SSJ2. Also Gohan was a pretty powerful SSJ2, so powerful infact that even with Super Perfect Cells massive zenkai Gohan was still more poweful than him. I would say Gohan went from mid SSJ2 level to low SSJ2 level in the 7 year gap while Vegeta was probably around Kid SSJ2 Gohans level with Goku being a high SSJ2, forcing Vegeta to use the Marjin power boost to close the gap. If Vegeta was only a SSJ1 I don't think the Marjin boost would put him on Goku's level because he would have been too far behind.
@@emmanuel4989 that's the thing, I don't think dbz is consistent at all about these things, but the SSJ leves are supposed to be multipliers, and SSJ2 is supposedly just an extra 2x multiplier.
The point then is, let's say at the Cell games Gohan SSJ was 50% above Vegeta SSJ. That would make SSJ2 Gohan 3x Vegeta. Let's also say that over the next 7 years gohan lost half his power, while vegeta doubled his.
That would then make Vegeta SSJ 1,33x Gohan SSJ2 at the start of the Buu saga, and his kind of difference for a 7 year period is definitely not crazy at all by dbz standards.
I'm not saying it is one way or the other - I actually think both are possible given the source material, and that's all I'm saying.
He definitely did because he would have been so pissed if he saw Goku did but he didn’t during the Yakon fight.
@worldofsaiyans1285do you think that vegeta would agree to shit like that? He controlled his body just to fight goku at full power
yes he was already able to transform to ss2 the manga supports this very very plainly, idk why this is still a debate
Because Vegeta has a lot of haters 😂
Because people lack critical thinking skills and seem to get dumber every day 😂😂
SSJ1 Vegeta at SSJ2 kid Gohan's level, would put him on SSJ3 Goku's level if Vegeta went SSJ2, that is just NOT possible!!
Vegeta was SSJ2 all along, in fact, stronger than SSJ2 kid Gohan and thus SP Cell, but just a bit weaker than Goku during the tournament, so he closed the gap with the Majin spell.
Because it's probably not as plain as you'd like to believe, and may not even be true.
Because content my guy. There needs to be content. 😂😂😂
Vegeta was able to go ssj2 because he was an introvert.
😂 🤣
I’d say vegeta’s Body acclimated to the majin boost
And he retained the same level of power when he fought kid boo…even without the mark.
Same as with goku and the God ritual
Me too, but for some reason some people believe that super saiyan 2 majin Vegeta is stronger then super Saiyan 2 Vegeta vs kid Buu, I think they're about the same, I also believe that Majin Vegeta was still a bit stronger then super Saiyan 2 Goku.
@@Ghost-rb6cwdon't know about him being stronger than goku coz we know goku wasn't going all out considering if he had to go all out, he'd probably try to transform to ssj3. Best case assumption is them being dead even like goku predicts, and I'll stick to the fighting genius' words here lol
@@ssk58607 no I said super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta was stronger then super Saiyan 2 goku, I wasn't talking about Goku in super Saiyan 3 form I said super Saiyan 2.
@@Ghost-rb6cw i also believe majin vegeta was stronger than ssj2 goku.just by judging their fight.
Vegeta turned Ssj2 like it was nothing, and Toriyama himself didn't make any huge dramatic scene of Vegeta turning into Ssj2 as if it were his first time.
So even by illustration, it's clear that Toriyama is conveying this is not the first time Vegeta has turned Ssj2.
He also writes this into the confident personality of Vegeta and how condescending he is of Gohan.
Contrast this with how he is much more willing to sit back if he is weaker (like the times of the Cell arc). He was not patient at all when Gohan fought Dabura.
Like the video says, Vegeta was feeling confident in fighting Goku during the tournament before they were interrupted by Babidi.
If Vegeta only had mastered Super Saiyan 1 (which is what Goku had 7 years ago), he would NOT feel confident to fight Goku.
Vegeta believes Goku's Ssj2 is probably stronger once we get to see Goku fight Yakon.
If Vegeta got Ssj2 from Babidi's mind control, Toriyama would've mentioned it.
Short answer, yes! Otherwise he wouldnt be berating Gohan constantly during the latter's fight with Dabura. You wouldn't berate someone stronger than you
He also had no problem admitting when Gohan & Goku were ahead of him in the Cell Games & wasn't asking to jump in & finish off Cell. SSJ1 has many degrees of power from a close fight with Frieza to dominating 2nd stage Cell. SSj2 is no different. Vegeta was clearly an SSJ2 just not on Goku's variant.
Umm didn't vegeta belittle frieza at stage 1 until he transformed into stage 2.
Thats where he then needed gohan krillin and piccolo to help fight frieza.
later vegeta admitted how did he ever think he could beat frieza on his own 😂😂😂
So he has under estimated before and same again with android 18 and then again later with cell...
@@BlakeSheldon90 Vegeta didnt know about Frieza's transformation, also he couldn't sense how strong the Androids were and his ego was going out of control when he became a Supersaiyan. Berating and Underestimating the opponent is totally a different kind of thing
@@babyfaceaviator7862 correction...
Vegeta did know about frieza transformation when he battled and killed zarbon and dodoria they told vegeta about frieza transformation.
And he always had an ego as he is the prince of all saiyans an elite warrior. That doesn't change even in dragon ball super against Toppo he shows that.
@BlakeSheldon90 Vegeta was informed, but didnt know of Frieza's transformation's power. Vegeta always assumes he's stronger until he faces the stronger opponent in person. This was a different case with Gohan. Vegeta already saw how powerful Gohan was as a SS2 against Cell. Gohan showed he could still turn SS2 against Spopovich and Yamu. And Vegeta still berated him. That goes to show, Vegeta was a already a SS2 and was stronger than Gohan. Not to mention, Vegeta told Goku,"At least you're stronger than your son was against Cell." Why would he say that if he wasnt stronger than SS2 Gohan?
Vegeta when gohan became ssj2 in the tournament at the beginning of buu saga:"He (Gohan) is way stronger when he fought cell"-means Vegeta know the extent of ssj2 because he already achieved it.
I think all these arguments are diminished by the fact that we're supposed to believe SSj2 is only 2x stronger than Grade 4. Before the Super Exciting Guide came out in 2007 and stated this multiplier, everyone had SSj2 at like 5-8x SSj1. Then it was really a difficult gap to close without having the transformation. With 2x? Not so much.
Still, of course Vegeta could use SSj2 before the Babidi boost, that much is pretty obvious from the manga. Even if it weren't, there is not a single hint that Babidi's power up unlocked this extra form for Vegeta, since he transforms quickly and normally just like Goku does.
Your Vegeta Impression is light weight on point😂
Lol I’ll take it. I think it’s horrible but I just enjoy doing it tbh 😂
Yeah, it's honestly strange how this misinformation has propagated through the DB fanbase, I don't know if it maybe has something to do with the Funi dub?
This is a good analysis on the in universe statements in the manga, but I would like to present the Daizenshuu 7 entry on SSJ2:
「This form has power that surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form through his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it through harsh training.」
So as you can see, Vegeta specifically attained SSJ2 from training, and not from Babidi's boost.
Vegeta could go SS2, but I believe the quality of it wouldn't be on the same level as Goku without the help of the Majin seal. The gap probably is still the same as it was at the end of Cell games, if not slightly wider.
3:08 Man he roasted Kabiito who got slaughtered.
Yes he could, there’s a lot of proof. But he took Babadi’s power to tap into his “I don’t give a fuck” side
I mean there's nothing that clearly says he transformed into super saiyan 2. It's not out of the question that Vegeta could have raised the power of super saiyan passed the level of Gohan's super saiyan 2 in 7 years. Up to that point super saiyan 2 wasn't even called super saiyan 2 yet so I don't think Toriyama really knew what he wanted to do before that battle with Goku.
It makes much more sense that Vegeta suppassed Gohan by attaining SSJ2 aswell rather than him raising his SSJ1 all the way to that level. Think about it, Bobidis spell really is just a power boost, if Vegeta SSJ1 was stronger than SSJ2 kid gohan he would already have more than enough power to turn SSJ2. Being Majin just put Vegetas SSJ2 power on the same level as Goku's.
While that makes sense, I believe Vegeta achieved SSJ2. I agree with your logic, however. Super Vegito, whose form is basically just a SSJ power up, was leagues above both Gohan's ultimate form and Goku's SSJ3 form. Vegeta, in theory, could have possessed a basic SSJ transformation that exceeded Gohan's SSJ2's form before Gohan underwent Z-Sword training prior to unlocking his hidden power. However, Vegeta's instant transformation to SSJ2 level while under the influence of Babidi's magic suggests that he already had the ability to transform, as it would have been exceedingly difficult to execute a transformation that he hadn't yet achieved.
@@phillipmoses2513vegitos base power is why that was like that, it was a fusion. Gotenks was leagues above ss3 Goku at just ssj1. Vegeta states that he has ss2 already so this was no need to be argued. He straight up says Goku broke the super Saiyan barrier as well. He already had ss2 mastered when him and Goku were getting ready to fight as well.
@@sky-oq5mr I'm saying I agree that Vegeta had SSJ2. But, I could also understand the logic that Vegeta's base SSJ form could have been superior to Gohan's SSJ2. In theory, a character can be stronger than someone who's in a transformed state. That's all I meant. Not saying that is actually what happened.
@@phillipmoses2513 that is possible but damn sure not in this arc. Vegeta ss1 was nowhere near ss2 Gohan like at all. Supreme kais didn't even see him as a threat until he went Majin ssj. Dabura alone would make every last one of them go ss2 if they had ir
Let’s be real. Vegeta was able to become ssj2. Even future trunks in the video games achieved it
lol not the argument I use in the video, but regardless, yes Vegeta def had ssj2
Bad argument because Trunks is half saiyan. Completely different from Vegeta with higher potential.
@@TheNin-Jedi ok retard 👍🏻
I actually hate the video games because they made Future Trunks turn Ssj2 only during the fight with Dabura and Babidi. He should've been able to turn Ssj2 within the years, not during the Babidi fight. And also the fact they didn't discover the Elder Kai in their timeline (to then unlock Trunks' potential) is weird to me. Would be cool to see if Trunks gets Ssj/Ssj2 hair while the hair color stays the same.
Why in the hell would Vegeta not have Super Saiyan 2 after seven years of training?
If Vegeta was not a Super Saiyan 2 before Babidi's spell, then that would put Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta at more than 2x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan since he was already stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. But since he's not, that means Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2 before Babidi's spell.
He wasn't already stronger. His ss2 was stronger than Gohan. Vegeta himself already stated he had ss2 when Goku powered up to ss2. He also went into ss2 without any struggle and was not concerned of Goku at all.
Haven't watched the video but the answer is yes. And I think it's pretty well known. Still appreciate any dragon Ball content that isn't obnoxious or copyCat stuff.
Great video , very informative and great look at details. I always believed this.
Heres the thing once vegeta and goku seen the ssj2 and felt its power naturally they would be able to train for it and obtain it.
Another thing that might've helped Vegeta to reach SSJ2 was that years ago he did take note of Goku and Gohan's training but was initially too stubborn to accept it. He never tried to master the regular SSJ state (despite knowing the benefits) when he trained in the hyperbolic time chamber the second time as he was more likely obsessed with trying to surpass Goku with his own methods before the Cell Games. Given SSJ2 is a direct evolution of the mastered super saiyan state it would make sense for Vegeta to possibly eventually reach it by reluctantly accepting Goku's method during the seven year gap. In the end as you rightly say Vegeta wanted Babidi's magic to bridge the gap between his and Goku's SSJ2 forms. There's no way he would imply he was stronger than Gohan if he hadn't reached SSJ2 already. Doesn't matter if Gohan slacked off over the years as Gohan was still SSJ2 so no doubt Vegeta had to be SSJ2 before the majin boost.
In the back of his mind, Vegeta must be picking up on the b.s. and approaching the idea that some larger force (Toriyama) is intentionally keeping him from experiencing the gains he should've actually gotten from his ridiculous training regimen. Some of the explanations for how Goku stays ahead are pretty out there. Listening to the explanations of Goku's superiority is like hearing scientists come out and say "It turns out Hulk Hogan was right, taking your vitamins and saying your prayers is the optimal method to strength!"
If he wasnt a super saiyan 2 pre babidi that means he was a monster when it came to strength
The spell just enhanced his pride ki
My head cannon is trunks gave him the super 2 boost to surpass gohan because he became a better training partner when he could now go ssj
Without watching the video, yes.
Yes. babs just give him a power boost
I never thought about it at all but I guess I always knew because I remember him saying Gohan was weaker than him and Goku now.
Yeah, it was never stated Vegeta was ssj2 prior to goku's fight. But there were hints dropped. One example was when Vegeta stated he could beat Dabura in 5 mins. Goku mentioned that Dabura is on par with Perfect Cell (not Super perfect Cell). Seeing how SSJ2 Gohan was having an absolute field day with cell, it's safe to assume Vegeta already achieved SSJ2. Just not on par with Goku's SSJ2 until the majin power boost. Keep in mind ssj2 goku, at this point, was already stronger than ssj2 Teen Gohan. Vegeta was probably on the same level at ssj2 teen gohan and super perfect cell, more or less.
I believe Vegeta was more powerful when he fought kid Buu and you were mistaken saying he was weaker, simply because his fight with Goku did exhaust him to the point of a zenkai boost. That's why he needed a sensu bean. He hates taking senzu beans and he only takes them when absolutely necessary meaning he was completely drained and beaten badly enough for a zenkai. Also different zenka's give different amounts of power level increases depending on the situation at hand and the amount of power needed and understood by the Saiyan prior to the boost. Just my opinion in this regard.
I don't remember if Vegeta ever transformed into a super sayian 2 in Dragon Ball Super saga before goin super sayian blue
Vegeta wanted the boost to be able to keep up w goku & possibly beat him but he knows goku always get the edge on him
At first, I wasn't on board with you saying Vegita wanted to instigate the Babidi boost, but it actually makes sense. It seems like a crisis of identity for him. Babidi was an opportunity to test himself against Goku if he had remained an evil douche bag. It was a way to get closure about his value had he made different choices in his life.
Vegeta is Vegeta's biggest problem, and I really like this idea as a path for character growth. Now he knows that he isn't actually that much stronger than what he could have been.
vegeta be like. who cares about ssj2. if my ssj1 is on par with ssj2
I just think it’s more narratively fitting for him to get the transformation after the magic
Not really, for vegeta to never learn ssj2 in 7 years just doesn’t make sense. Especially when you consider his motivation. He just realised that despite having the same transformation as goku, he would still loose due to gokus natural talent.
Good Video, Don't know if I agree the "Majin Vegeta was stronger than SSj2 Vegeta while fighting Kid Boo." When he fought Fat Boo he clearly had broken the spell but still had the power.. I think its his now.
so basically SSJ2 Goku = SSJ2+Majin Boost Vegeta > SSJ2 Vegeta(without boost) > SSJ2 Gohan(against Cell).
I always knew this
It just wouldn't make sense for vegeta to not obtain it over those years. He just was shocked kakarot obtained it also so kakarot was a bit over vegeta from training in other world. He knew there was a difference in power cause kakarot actually trained in other world and him having unlimited stamina allowed him to traim effectively. Vegeta just closed that gap with the majin mark. Now heres the icing on the cake vegeta obtain ssj god off screen right? So whats the problem with this scenario? ...
I'm sure he turned SSJ2 a day or 2 after seeing Gohan do it.
The answer is OBVIOUS. Yes he had SSJ2 b4 Majin.
Oh yeah
I could've told you that just from the Budokai games playing with Base Characters at certain States.
So why not wish for a power boost if your gonna submit for an unearned powerboost
Not as interesting lol
Also when you first see vegeta transform into ssj2 he did it instantly, every single time we see a saiyain access a new level of super saiyan it also takes them a while. It’s only after testing it out multiple times can they do it so easily
Yes
Oh, and Vegeta kept Babidi's power up after dying
You are right on 99% of what you said. The one percent you are wrong on is Vegeta never lost any power level. I can prove it.
Kid Buu ragdolled him but didn't ragdoll fat Buu. Majin Vegeta was ragdolling fat Buu and the fat Buu that fought kid Buu was weaker than the one Majin Vegeta fought
The problem was that Goku's SS2 was stronger than Vegeta's SS2. He wanted his own potential unleashed like Yamu and spopovitch. Goku had a head start with Grade4, 7 years back. But vegeta didn't realize Goku's Dead immortal body was why Goku was so strong.
Exactly 💯
Why are people still talking about this
Because dragon ball fans are the dumbest of any anime fans
Goku achieved a higher grade SS2 than Vegeta that’s why he needed Babidi to level the playing field.
I've also believed he already possessed the ability to turn Super Saiyan 2. When Vegeta faces Goku after destroying the tournament arena and killing a ton of people on the stands, the both of them move locations, then Goku turns Super Saiyan 2 to face Vegeta. In the anime at least, after this display, Vegeta is slightly amused and says: "Well, at least you're stronger than your son was against Cell."
Then Vegeta immediately powers up to Super Saiyan 2 himself. I don't believe he would have the confidence, or made a comment like that towards Goku if he couldn't have transformed already. My guess is like yours, Babidi's magic closed the gap between them a bit, but DID NOT give Vegeta the ability to transform into Super Saiyan 2. He already had the power.
Close the gap means ssj2. Vegeta saying goku is more talented means goku achieving new forms.
@@wingedhussar1453 No, closing the gap does not mean SSJ2, lol. A character can have the same form, but can still be weaker than another.
@nickkchilla it does.vegeta trained one year in hyperbolic chamber and he became strong enough to fight and destroy androids in super sayian form.thats only 1 year while 7 years have gone by. Vegeta in 7 years was stronger then perfect cell just in super sayian form .ssj2 form vegeta didn't unlock until babidi . People don't know what theyr talking about
@@wingedhussar1453 I don't even know what you're talking about? You derailed the conversation.
You proved my point by saying "he became strong enough to fight and destroy androids in Super Sayian form." That literally means a character can be stronger/weaker in the same form. Hence Vegeta's already attained SSJ2, being weaker than Goku's SSJ2.
Once again, no, "closing the gap" does not mean SSJ2. I am the one who said "closing the gap" in my comment. It does not mean SSJ2, because I am the one who said it and understands what I meant. I don't know how else to explain that.
I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of argument, lol.
@nickkchilla yea if charcater can get stronger in weaker forms then tht means vegeta was strong enough to destory dabura without going ssj2 but gohan needed to go ssj2 to match dabura because he did not train. That's why vegeta is stronger then gohan ssj2 in ssj1 because he trained for 7 years and vegeta could not go ssj2 until babidi. It all makes sense if you think of that
Nice breakdown! This proves why Goku'll always be stronger than Vegeta at the end of the day.
Or maybe because he's the main character
@@Marcus_shawn That too.
Yes. He already knew it. The daizenshu also says it.
I don't think vegeta only aquire the majin charm to just be on par with super Saiyan 2 goku i think he did it because he wanted to actually close the gap between them and it did to a certain extent if pay close attention to the fight, super Saiyan 2 majin Vegeta still had a slight edge.
Also, i believe super Saiyan 2 vegeta without the majin charm vs super Saiyan 2 Goku is equal at best.
It seems like you cannot get it organically on earth conditions. Gohan achieved it in the time chamber realm & Goku in the spirit world & Trunks with the z sword in the kai realm fighting a demon & Vegeta in a gravity room.
That's ss3 not ss2
@@sky-oq5mr and maybe ss2 as well
Yes within the 7 years of training.
Technically it's a mental amp because he states he was back to his roots a ruthless Saiyan
He was already training at max effort. For a spell that unleashes power it wouldn't have done much.
This debate was kinda a waste of time. Dragon ball super pretty much shows you that he can at least keep up with goku blue . What that beast mode hit for is the real question
Not canon to Dbz so that is irrelevant
@@sky-oq5mr Dragon Ball Super is canon because the draft for it is directly written by Toriyama, who is the main author of the Dragon Ball series. Few places confirmed it so you are incorrect.
also the super hero movie is canon as well. The biggest reason Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero can be considered canon is not only because Toriyama wrote the screenplay, but he also has complete control of the franchise, and nothing gets made without his approval. If the movie didn’t count, Toriyama wouldn’t have approved it. So yes, Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero is different. It wasn’t what fans were expecting. However, by every metric, it is canon.
@@DuPhoReal No, that's not what canon is. It's canon to super and that's it. It's not canon to Z or Db, super rewrote, changed and overall takes place in different time periods impossible to have been followed or happening within Z. That makes it NON CANON has nothing to do with who made it. Boruto is made by an entirely different person but they follow Naruto story so it's canon. Berserk is made by the original makers best friend and it's canon because it follows the story and doesn't do anything that would cause immense plot holes to where it can't be viable like super does with to db and Dbz.
@sky-oq5mr "Canon" is anything that the author considers
part of his story. Toriyama has gone on
record specfically putting over Toyotaro as his
successor, but has he ever given that credit to
the Toei animation staff? Plus, Toriyama has
much closer involvement with the manga's
creation than the anime's. The anime has
filler characters like Gregory and Mr. Satan's
disciples, certain characters like Goku and
Trunks seem much more out of character,
references Ginyu and Bulma's body swap filler,
it even includes the non-canon version of the
"History of Trunks'" in a flashback. The creator of dragon ball z/gt/super said its cannon , nuff said
Why is this even a question.
It feels like if Goku had told him that he could go beyond SSJ2, he wouldn't have let Babidi control him to close the gap as it wouldn't have helped him reduce the gap.
Exactly thts one other reason why we know vegeta did not have ssj2 because if he did he would not have turned to babidi .
Fact of the matter he never goes ssj2 until babidi all you guys are speculating
So if you recall, Gohan is clearly fighting Dabura as a Super Saiyan 2. Dabura is about the same Strength as Super Perfect Cell. Gohan, much weaker than his teen counter part, had trouble with Dabura. This makes sense.
Now Remember Vegeta's words? Vegeta stated he should have fought Dabura because he knew he was strong enough to defeat Dabura. Yes, Vegeta is of course able to turn Super Saiyan 2.
Exactly
He was SS1 when he fought Dabura. Toriyama’s auras doesn’t lie and most officially licensed depictions of the fight have him at SS1. Trust me, I want to believe he was SS2, but those details (or lack of paying attention to them from Toriyama) don’t lie.
@@briankangguitar "Auras" aside, why the hell would Gohan turn Super Saiyan 2 against Kabuto in the tournament, the Supreme Kai Assistant, and against Dabura, a Much Stronger opponent than Kabuto, stay as Super Saiyan 1. That makes No sense.
Give the animators a break. They are not gonna add specific "Auras"/ "Electricity" every moment of Super Saiyan 2. Based on the story itself, it's self explanatory that Gohan had to have been Super Saiyan 2. It would make no sense for him to fight a Stronger opponent in a weaker form.
@@SynchroPlays I’m not gunna argue, because I too believe it doesn’t make sense. But as long as official media continues to market and label the form he fought Dabura in as SS1, our opinions truly don’t matter. No matter how logically well put together the argument may be (Unless Toriyama himself clarifies.)
I’ve made the same argument for Movie 10. Why would they literally rip the design of SS2 Gohan only to call it SS1? It doesn’t make sense, but we don’t have the authority as fans to dictate what’s official. Anything we say is purely speculation. But officially licensed media WILL keep saying otherwise, and we really don’t have much of a choice or say.
@@briankangguitar yeah, I see what you mean. Narratively speaking it makes no sense, but officially speaking, it's stated that he fought as a Super Saiyan 1. Oh well 😅
Vegeta v goku, vegeta says the reason for him letting abide take control of him, and it’s because he wanted to be evil again, he didn’t want to be an earthling and all that. He could def go ss2 BEFORE!!!
It took him 3 years to become a ssj why wouldn't he get ssj 2 in 7...plus he made statements left and right how he was stronger than Gohan
Exactly
I can't believe that it's almost half of 2024 and people still debate this non issue 😂😂
Think about it, if Vegeta couldn't achive SSJ2 before the majin spell, but he knew he was stronger than SSJ2 kid gohan and thus cell, surely could vaporize dabura as he is weaker than cell, so a SSJ1 vegeta would be at SSJ2 Gohan level, which is impossible by that time.
Vegeta going SSJ2 would put him at SSJ3 Goku's level, if SSJ1 Vegeta was SPC Cell level 😂😂😂
Goku reach ssj2 but because he surpass ssj2 with his ssj3 form his ssj2 is much stronger than vegeta ssj2 vegeta reach ssj2 form 2 but he know after he saw goku power against yakon he realized his ssj2 is inferior to Goku ssj2 so he allowed babide to get a boost of his ssj2, so when he became Majin vegeta he ssj2 now is the same ore much stronger than goku ssj2, what vegeta didn't know goku has another form ssj3,
Vegeta kept his majin power boost when he came back to life he was equal to Goku aside from Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Obviously. Power level doesnt just unlock forms lol
Bull shit nobody ever said that u lose ur powered once ur no longer under Babidi's spell
This is still hugely speculative. Vegeta runs his mouth like a hood rat, you can't take much of what he says at face-value, including his inner dialogue.
As we have seen more than once, lower levels of transformation can match or surpass higher levels. Gohan's training stagnated for so long that it stands to reason that he may have lost the ability to tap into his true power. In fact, we know Gohan is at his best when he gets angry, which he never really is during the Buu saga.
Meanwhile, Vegeta has trained non-stop, like he always does. But we know that his training is _never_ as effective as Vegeta wants it to be, for various reasons. So he may have found a way to go beyond Gohan's SSJ2 power with his SSJ1. He may even have fooled himself into believing he had reached SSJ2, wouldn't be the first time he got that wrong.
We're also talking about the guy who severely underestimates his opponents and severely overestimates himself like it's his job. Again, can't take his words at face-value.
How can anyone even argue this? Vegeta could not go Ss2 before becoming Majin Vegeta. It's no secret that Gohan didn't train for 7years after cell. Vegeta isn't trying to hint he can go Ss2, he's straight out telling Gohan "youve gotten weaker". If Vegeta was able to go Ss2, there would be no reason or need to join babidi
WRONG. Vegeta already had SSJ2 during the SEVEN years of training. Don’t be so dense. Babidi only gave him a power boost on top of his already obtained SSJ2 to close the gap between him and Goku which means base Goku was slightly above base Vegeta at the time.
WRONG. Vegeta goes SS2 only because of babidis magic. Why do you think you don't see him transform into SS2 when he's brought back to life to help Goku with kid Buu? Because he can't. The first time Vegeta actually unlocks SS2 is in "battle of Gods" when berus slaps Bulma. Watch it
Hey man thanks for watching! As for the topic, Vegeta definitely had ssj2 before babidi. And he went super saiyan 2 against kid buu. I actually have concrete evidence of that in this video. I know a lot of things in Dragonball can be looked at in many ways. However, for this topic, there is too much proof to say otherwise
There is way more proof that he didn't have Ss2 until babidii gave it to him. Vegeta insulting Gohan for not training and noticing how weak he's gotten compared to when he fought cell is not proof.
@@BoricuaLouieVI’d argue that you’re wrong based on how dbz was written. It wasn’t even called ss2 until later on in the arc. Toriama litterally said that goku having ssj3 was something decided in the spot and that he was retconned to always have it. I wouldn’t be surprised if the actual answer is that he wasn’t even thinking in terms of ss1 or ss2 but just levels of power. In that era the lightning was the symbol of power so it could’ve just been something that happened and not much forethought was placed in it.
Is kid buu the weakest buu that’s the real question
In the manga he is weaker than Super Buu
In the anime he is stronger than super buu but below buutenks and buuhan as they are fusions
Video comin soon for that 👀
@@newhybrid101 kid Buu is stronger then super Buu without the absorbed version of Gotenks and Gohan, he slightly behind the absorbed versions of Gohan and Gotenks.
@@newhybrid101he's not stronger than super Buu or Goku would've been demolished. Fat Buu was keeping up with kid Buu and it was pissing kid Buu off. The biggest thing to let you know that he wasn't, was when him and Goku both shot their blast. Tired Goku deflected it easily while full powered kid Buu got his arms blown off trying to deflect it.
I was okay with that until you said Majin Vegeta is stronger then dead ssj2 Vegeta ... Did we forget about zenkai boosts ?
Theyre very minor by the time of the buu saga
Obviously
*Vegeta vs Kid Buu is way stronger than Majin Vegeta. Vegeta got alot of hits in. Piccolo says Gotenks is Super Buus equal. Goku is stronger than Gotenks & Super Buu cause Supreme Kai says Kid Buu was the strongest form. Vegeta did good vs Kid Buu. Fat Buu did a little better vs Kid Buu than Vegeta did.*
In my opinion vegeta is with Majin booster ssj 2.5 yes ssj 3 is indeed stronger but ssj goku vs vegeta is equal oder maybe vegeta is stronger
I want to belive tht vegeta knew ssj2 before babidi but the issue here is what vegeta said. "Maybe it would close the distance between us" never was this implying tht vegeta was close enough to achieving strentgh of ssj2 before babidi IF anything it was further implying tht vegeta could not achieve ssj2 without babidi and he was trying to close the distance by acheiving ssj2 and being on his level.Vegeta stating goku is more gifted then him basicly states tht he couldnt go sjj2 and he saw that when he saw goku powering up to ssj2 against babidid monster as vegeta states.when he gets ssj2 from babidi goku says we are now even now. then vegeta when he talks about strentgh he was talking about his own training as they get stronger even base form compared to 7 years ago. 7 years ago ssj vegeta would lose to buu base vegeta .your implying all the text thinking tht vegeta already knew ssj2 when in reality he did not achieve it and yes he did get strong enough to destory cell but in regular ssj form
Man you cant compare the manga to the anime its different stories smh
Ok kiddo
I think vegeta did have ssj2 but his wasn't as good as gokus he was prob between like cell games gohans ssj2 form and gokus ssj2 so that's probably why he was upset/jealous when he got a glimpse of gokus power.
Was he upset though? I believe super Saiyan 2 Vegeta without the Majin boost is still on par with super Saiyan 2 goku. I believe vegeta allowed himself to be control because he wanted to close the gap between him and Goku but they were still kinda even, but if you watch the fight super Saiyan 2 majin Vegeta still had a slight edge over super Saiyan 2 goku so Vegeta plans still work quite a bit.
vegeta fans are so delusional.
man got bullied 80% of the time in Z
How do you know if Vegeta needed to go ssj2 to surpass Gohan's own ssj2? He could have possibly been able to go ssj his power level could be between high school gohan's ssj2 and cell saga gohan's ssj2
Bullshit
Stop reading like that bra it's terrible 😂
Why are people still debating this, obviously he could go ssj2 before babidi ☠️
Idk about super but maybe a little. It’s more that goku just naturally is a stronger fighter
@worldofsaiyans1285 lol I don't know why most believe that lol, I believe Goku and Vegeta was about equal all the time, what Vegeta did was aquire the Majin boost to close the gap between the 2.
@worldofsaiyans1285 because he's plan was to let bibidi take over his mind or let himself be control so he would have a legit excuse or reason to fight goku.
My take on Vegeta.... Vegata was strong enough to go ss2 just need a burst of rage not hold him back he really want to spare with Goku and be the better man with the babidi spell he can reach his full ss2 state without nothing holding him back
So how did Goku get ss2? What rage boost?
Lol another rubbish video out there...
Vegeta was probably on the edge of ssj 2 but not quit there,
Vegeta did stop training for a short while as it shows trunks talking about vegeta stopping after gohan killed cell in the bojack film and vegeta passed trunks his sword as he was fighting bojack.
the reason he was belittling gohan was to get dabura's attention.
To get babidi to use his magic on vegeta.
But you even stated yourself in this video dabura's was the same power level of cell which gave adult gohan a hard time which shows how much power gohan has lost... As a teenager gohan was alot stronger, so I think vegeta with his ego and his killer saiyan instincts would beat adult gohan and dabura with his experience. But don't forget back in the dbz time vegeta always found it hard to beat someone like rackon, frieza, android 18, and cell and it was either goku or gohan had that upper edge and vegeta hated that as he was the prince of all saiyans which he explains whilst Fighting goku.
And he knew to get back that edge he needed babidi to awaken the evil in vegeta heart.
And you try justifying his super saiyan 2 against kid buu, well at that point babidi had already unlocked his power 😂😂
Terrible video, your in need of rewatching the dbz saga and the films 😂😂😂
Hey man everyone has their own opinion, nbd. But this is interesting- The fact that you brought up the Bojack movie makes your opinion irrelevant lol. That’s a completely different continuity, which is why we only reference the manga here, which is Toriyamas actual vision.
And as for you saying the ssj2 Vegeta vs Kid Buu argument is wrong..well, babidis magic isn’t an unlock, it’s literally a boost. That means when he’s fighting kid buu, vegeta no longer has that boost from Babidi. Thus, Vegeta was stronger under Babidis spell than he was without, and either way, it has nothing to do with whether or not he obtained ssj2. Thanks for watching
@@Neverend117 hey man everyone has their own opinion, (nbd). Kind of indicates it is...
Uh... Cause bojack film is relevant as its shows other angles of what happens after the cell games and how things got peaceful for a while lmao.
And Yh it was an unlock to vegeta power hence the super saiyan 2, vegeta knew where goku beat yakon by powering up he could only close the gap by babidi magic.
It's not like he developed amnesia and forgot to do super saiyan 2 whilst Fighting kid buu. Cause babidi unlocked it at that point, like old kai using his magic on gohan to become ultimate gohan. And you said in your video he was already ssj 2 so it does having something to do with vegeta obtaining ssj 2 thanks to babidi.
No fr lol it’s not a big deal. It’s different perspectives that’s all. Just figured I’d entertain your comment and give my rebuttal
da-bra???? have you watched the show? "Da-boor-a" come on
SMH... Let me break down something to ya'll so that you understand how this works. Kay?
Super Saiyan is a rare ability. I know it doesn't feel like that because we see it being commonly used in the show and manga but there is a reason for this. Everyone who can do it is related to both Vegeta and Goku. Vegeta being a direct line of ROYALITY to the Saiyan blood lines. While Goku is just naturally talented because main character awesomeness. Majority of Saiyans could not reach super levels because of two simple factors. Their powers never growing higher than 5000-10000 and their emotional capabilities. Saiyans were naturally bred to suppress their natural emotions because they felt it held them back in battle. Yet we know to achieve Super Saiyan you need a certain power level and an emotional need. Goku's was desperation of survival. While Vegeta came to terms with his limitations, and his own self-hatred is what set it off. Now that we got that out of the way lets go into further detail.
Despite Vegeta and Goku being special guys with the inherit ability to transform. They are still physical beings who are limited by their physical bodies. Its already been established that your average Saiyan warrior couldn't easily go Super. Now they are also limited by being full blooded Saiyans. A full blooded Saiyan has a lot of advantages but their over all potential is nothing when compared to a half Saiyans and Vegeta at one time even admits this. Gohan, Trunks, and Goten all share the unique quality of being half Saiyans. This is why despite Goku and Vegetas efforts to push themselves during the Cell saga (in the room where you can get YEARS of training in days) could not turn Super Saiyan 2 but Gohan could. Yet half Saiyans do not have the fighting spirit that a full blooded Saiyan do so despite having great potential. Its a lot more difficult for them to bring it out if they lack the need for battle. Trunks and Goten become Super Saiyans very young because their rivalry between one another pushed them to be better and thus their natural potential lead them to transforming.
But then you are probably saying to yourself "well that doesn't make sense because Goku AND Vegeta DO become SSJ2" and you are right but you are right by TECHNICALITY. Goku died. He was no longer limited by his physical body and because of that he was able to discover not just Super Saiyan 2 but Super Saiyan 3. Super Saiyan 3 can't even be achieved by normal means. So Vegeta, not even Gohan could do it and yet Goku, Trunks and Goten can do it because why? Goku discovered it because again, he was dead and no longer limited by physical restraints. Trunks and Goten can only do it while fused. A fused body is special with different physical limitations. (I will say that because Goku and Vegeta both went way beyond their natural limits due to the God transformations in Super that it is possible for Vegeta to go 3 but just chooses not to.)
We also know these physical restraints exist because Goku clearly states that it is harder for him to use Super Saiyan 3 while alive compared to when he was dead.
So your question is; Can Vegeta go Super Saiyan 2 before going Majin? The answer is no because he needed the magic to push him beyond his regular limits.
Its true that Vegeta WAS still stronger than Gohan and Cell without Super Saiyan 2 but to get to Goku's then
"unfathomable" level, Vegeta needed the magic to physically grant him Super Saiyan 2 for his power boost.
You seem to be under the false impression that a forms level debates the power of a user. This is proven false because Gohan's SSJ2 during Buu Saga is weaker than when he first powered up in Cell Saga.
So despite Vegeta being trapped at level 1.5, he could still beat Gohan's level 2. Vegeta trained nonstop for 7 years and yet despite that he could not achieve Goku's level of ability. Why? Because Goku is naturally talented yes, but also because he was dead and no longer had physical limitations.
Goku during the Buu saga is extremely strong. Yet he holds back because he wants to fight fair. Super Buu is the only threat to Goku.
Vegito>>>>>Gohan Buu>Gotenks Buu>Goku>Kid Buu>Gohan Unlocked>Gotenks/Super Buu>Vegeta (after Majin)>Fat Buu>Vegeta>Dabra>Gohan>Trunks/Goten
I'm so confused on how videos like this get so many views
Just watch the show Anda it's quite obvious