Broadhead Testing Angle of Attack
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- When selecting a broadhead very few people consider the angle of the Broadhead blades and how that increases or decreases penetration capability.
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Don't let Dudley see this he'll have you on to tell you your wrong again
I saw that I thought that guy was very arrogant and talked in circles! Ever time Troy hit him with a question he couldn’t answer he changed the subject! I wasn’t impressed
Lol ya Dudley really high on himself the whole joe rogan thing has really gone to he’s head
I mean shooting a custom bow, long draw, 80lbs of pull, a nice field point would do serious damage just based on the math alone.
I'm at a loss here. Where can I find this? I'd like to watch it.
@@gsnicholas8522 it’s on the nockon channel
Absolutely 100% one of the most important aspects of a broadhead design. And nobody talks about it. And the stuff they sell is horribly designed.... Had to learn the hard way.... Thanks for talking about this!
Thank you
Think about the arrow cousin, the spear. Throughout history and modern days, spears have always had long, narrow, sharp, pointy heads for maximum penetration. If spears had blunt heads, they'd be called hammers.
RF you are spot on in tool and die terms its called ( shear ) and on punch presses its measured in tonnage less angle more tonnage .
You made me smarter and that aint easy!!!
Just watched your podcast with nockonarchery. You impressed me with your composure. Actually, think you won the argument. great stuff. keep them coming
Thank you
I really enjoy learning from your videos... your sense of humor is awesome. I really like the scientific data provided. It all makes perfect sense to me. Fish on!
Thank you
Just the video I was hoping for!
Great job RF, you’re spot on!!!
"Hey, is that Ranch fairy?" "No, this is Patrick."
Simmons broadheads are really being slept on and the tree shark 🦈 & mako shark broadhead are bad ass !
I've always loved the look of his heads. I could just never afford them.
I think they are worth it in the long haul ! I shoot thorn archery 2.2 Rift out of my xbow
Is anyone else on the 450 gn mechanical side but just has mad respect for ranch fairy.
I do! Great comment, thank you.
Yep, I agree. I want to hunt with you someday, it's on my bucket list. Talking about ribcage, I think where the most problems come into play for broadheads that are short with a more flat angle is when they hit a ribcage when the animal is on a fully exhaled lung. Now the ribs twist when they get hit and move more like a leaf spring than when the lung is on a fully inhaled breath of air. Most of the problems occur when the animal is exhaled as the arrow strikes it. On top of what you said, that angle is the most critical thing to having the arrow change direction. I guide for Deer in Washington. 2 of my people shot Deer with flater angled broadheads this year, one was a short 4 blade one was mechanical, both said they took broadside shots, and they both hit the crease behind the shoulder on entry, both arrows exited forward of the front shoulder. They killed them, however, not in fine style. Both blades hit horizontally causing the deflection left. If they hit vertical I see them glance down and end up in the brisket.
Thanks, it would be cool to hang out with Troy. @EdAshby
Man Troy, I get tired of these comment sections.
" Waaah. Waah.... I don't want to do the most effective thing, or use the most effective arrow. "
"Well, I think blah blah blah blah blah. " like it's an opinion.
"Well you gotta find out middle ground...."
You know, that middle ground between facts and marketing bullshit.
"What are you talking about? i've seen a flipper flapper fly right through an elk."
" Well it sounds like Ed Ashby needs to go do a little hunting."
These people not only have problems with facts, they even have problems with operational definitions. What most people consider evidence is maddening. It's like talking to bigfoot researchers.
I just watched a video from one of these shot-placement twizzler stick proponents, where he shot under a deer. Every time you miss is a time you got lucky and didn't wound an animal. And we all miss. Of course we all miss. Of course you can shoot through a deer when everything goes right. But I do not at all understand this resistance to using the most effective equipment.
" Yeah well I really like my ceramic hammer. If you hit it just right it don't break, and you can buy these special padded nails, too. I probably driven twenty nails with his hammer. Kind of hate to use a regular hammer, they're kind of heavy."
I'm a trad guy, and I remember seeing the pictures of Ed Ashby shooting clear through buffalo with arrows made out of ipe wood.
Thanks for sticking to the facts.
Ive been wade fishing for around 25 yrs and i got hit by a stingray for the first time this year. Surprisingly i was standing still when it happened. I was fishing a cut and was standing there for about 5 minutes without moving. All of the sudden it feels like i get wacked with a piece of rebar on the front of my shin. Luckily i didnt get hit with the barb but it hit me so hard that it still left a red line mark on my shin even through the neoprene upper portion of my boot.
I agree with everything you're said. In fact, I even called it common sense. it's sad that you have to give such an explanation for some people to realize the common sense in this.
Honestly, not a lot of people think about this stuff and they aren't missing it, they just haven't had the idea presented to them.
I had a family (multiple degrees mind you) tell me one time that the moon always comes up at sundown......and they are smarter now.
Love the shirt
Every time I watch these videos, I feel dumb. Because this stuff just makes so much sense, and I can’t believe that I hadn’t taken the time to think about. Next season I’m going full blown tin foil hat
I'll have them in stock!!
Would love to see a test where you could measure the pressure of pushing a broadhead through a medium or do an accurate penitration test with a animal cadaver, thanks for the videos!
Bill Vanderheyden did that same test. He didn't do it with an Ashby style head, but he did test a few common fixed designs and I think two mechanical designs. He should still have the results on his website.
@@YoureSoVane
Bills test is only for one thing - to sell his broadheads.
Of COURSE he didn’t use an ashby head!!
Fake scientist and “engineering”
Amen.
Just read the Ashby report, it covers all of that.
@@stephenballard3759 I have read them, and I agree with them. The point was to highlight that SOME designs have already been tested and compared.
The key takeaway from the data Bill Vanderheyden put out is that at low speeds the force required is proportional to the thickness and angle of the blades. One can assume than an Ashby style head would perform better, but he didn't test them.
Similarly, if you are shooting smaller game than the massive African game that Ashby hunted, you can probably get away with a smaller broadhead, similar to the Iron Will design, and have better flight at higher speeds.
It's the same thing I tell my guys during training; you have to match your setup to your engagement. If you need the extra penetration, we know what works. I shoot 80# and 30.5", I can get a pass through on deer with a shorter fixed blade like the 200gr Tuffhead or VPA but a lower energy guy might need to carefully pick his shots or go longer.
Your other comments about bone chisels really hits the nail on the head. There are different mechanics of breakage, and different interactions of angle and speed will affect how the bone reacts and separates. The best way to do it at lower forces and with less wasted energy is lightly torquing the bone with a slicing angle of attack, instead of a direct chop. Needlessly accelerating the bits of bone just wastes the arrow's KE.
Going 200 grain single bevel on my first crossbow season every thing you are saying is spot on to me
What kind of crossbow?
Yeah let us know how that works and what crossbow and bolt you’re using, I’m very interested!
Ya I would like to here of your results with that. The old lady uses a crossbow and would like to give the same type advantage with busting through bone
I've heard cutthroats are great on x bows. That 200gr'er is the bees knees!
With mechanicals: With a light draw and light arrow it absolutely matters! Get a faster bow and throw in a 100 gr. Insert and that will over come it alot, especially if you go from wide over the top mechanicals to rear deployed not as wide.
Sir Isaac Newton.
Law 3.
It will help, but the physics will also create an issue that is just,
Simple
Math.
Hey Troy I know you’re a big advocate of longer profile broad heads like you talk about here but one of your favorite broad heads is the magnus black hornet serazer which is my favorite whitetail head! Could you touch on that a bit for me? Thanks man.
It surprised me with its efficiency on meat.
I cannot tell you why it works - factually. When Mike sent them to me a long time ago, I told him I hated them!! Price point is great.
They work great. Warranty is great.
Question concerning Mechanical Broadheads having never used them i am not sure how they work. Would the angle not change due to how much force is being applied to the front of the broadhead and how much force is being applied to the deployed cutting edges?
What would you suggest for the crossbow community? Are these blades you suggest okay for crossbows?
I completely understand your logic..your theory.. based on the weights or grains you describe... why do I get perfect pass through out to 40 yards with a 2 inch mechanical with a 60lb bow? 340 spine arrows?...
I took your advice about smaller angle broadheads for this years whitetail season in Indiana. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford the Tuffheads for this year. But, I switched up most of my arrow setup. I still use a Gold Tip Hunter XT 340, but the stats are completely different. Last year, I shot a 29" 413gr arrow with a stock 12gr insert and a 100gr Swhacker broadhead and lighted nocks for a 9.6ish FOC. This year I'm shooting a 28 1/4" 469gr arrow with a 125gr Magnus Stinger Buzzcut with a 50gr insert and lighted nocks for just over 15% FOC. My arrows fly like darts now. The apex of a 40 yard shot is noticeably lower than before. And now I don't have to worry about a mechanical not performing adequately. After the season I'm switching everything up. I'm gonna go with the Sirius Supernova SD's 250 with a 75gr-100gr half jacket insert and whatever tip from your test kit flies the best. One step in front of the other. At least I'm moving in the direction you recommend, rather than stay in the same place and never learn what a different setup can do.
I think you’re on the right track!
My problem is that all the tuffheads are out of stock!
I really want to try them. That would give me around a 20 ish%
F O C. Maybe next year
@MichaelLakota-vc4tk Hello. That's the number I'm shooting for. Somewhere close to 20% FOC. I just couldn't afford new arrows and broadheads to actually get the right setup. I know that the 340's I'm shooting are nowhere stiff enough for the setup I gonna have. 250 spine is what I'm thinking. To go with whatever combination insert and tip weight shoots straight. Hope you and I both can get the setup we want for next year.
@@papaschuette Definitely a 250 spine. As much as I shoot,for the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would shoot a limber arrow!?!? Yeah I get it with my traditional and recurves but that is a completely different animal.
So to speak
@MichaelLakota-vc4tk I have my arrows cut down about as short as I can get them. I'm shooting a 30 inch draw, and I cut my arrows to 28 1/4 inches. They're just under a 1/2 inch past the rest. That way, they were as stiff as I could get them before changing the insert and tip weight. I was shooting 29 inch arrows with the stock inserts and 100gr tips.
@@papaschuette I am right with you on that setup! I have a Ravin R26 and I cut my arrows down to 17 inches. 150gr Magnus k-bees.
Total of 460gr They are incredibly accurate,however I had to remove the fletching on a couple of them because perfect arrow flight was “in between “ the original ones. Vanes are cheap and I have had a Bitzenburger fletching tool for so long I can’t remember lol. So I refletched my arrows 1 at a time and tuned them to my bow. I now have 7 arrows that even with a fixed Broadhead can almost do single hole groups! 5 more to go and I’ll have a dozen. This little anal feat is going three weeks now. I need to replace my string as the capture nocks are now bigger than my strings serving. Might be why I’m having troubles now!?!? lol. I do enjoy the rewards of figuring things out myself 😊
Needles, spears, swords, awls, nails. It’s a simple machine. It’s obvious and anyone who says otherwise is probably making a different argument and will argue “trade offs” or “middle ground” or something else not related to angles.
@RanchFairy - Hey Troy, just diving into the "adult arrows" and plan to be ready for next season. When I was researching single bevel broadheads I saw that Tuffhead has implemented a bloodring system (what seem similar to "bleeder blades". Have you tried them? Any testing to show impact to penetration? Thanks for all the information and great work you are doing in our sport!
They have been solid. Not breaking or anything.
Haven't hurt penetration.
and I don't think they make one bit of difference for lethality. If you want my opinion. I hope you did!!!!
SHARP matters way more.
Accurate Arrow platform matters way, way, way, more.
Howdy Ranch…I just saw this…I’ve got a small channel on TikTok…TLTLtrad is me…I made a video/stich about this that you might really find helpful….another creator-BruleCreekwhitetails has a broadhead tester that he uses to test the foot pounds of force needed by different designed broadheads/angle of broadhead, mechanical vs fixed, 3 blade vs 2….this information could really help out a lot of people
Been doing this since 1979 seen a lot and I'm sure no expert but be respectful of each other.
One of Rages old slogan was "Its like throwing an Axe through an animal" if they actually went through it would be spot on
They do…..I’ve shot 15-20 deer with them and never not had a pass through.
@@michaelcolthart4006you’re an outlier for sure.
incline plain the longer the angle the less force required to move something up it. that said the steeper angle in a cuting application means more surface area for drag to act apone it.
A man with logic is rare these days.
Gotta give iron will their due man. He might have a different angle then you like but he is doing a lot to show fixed blades are better and he's made in usa
Yeah he’s one of those unusual guys that is selling something but ia also quietly good for the whole community, seems like such an upright dude like troy.
@jcarry5214 I agree. His podcast with John really showed a lot about his character in a good way and remained calm. I was very impressed with him. It's funny how he can admittedly wear the stupid hat, then break down the damage to an animal with serious knowledge. I'm a fan of Troy, and he does usually admit when he's out of his lane when it comes to hunting different game. I want to see what would happen if Troy, the rocket man, MFJJ, and iron will bill all mashed together for all the game that can be hunted in North America.
I want one of those shirts
well if it makes sense then half the haters are gonna be confused cause ol john wants his flipper flapper to only go in and stay there and since he can hit a target at 100 plus yards he must know everything lol
He never missed
Ever - keep that in mind!!
What is your honest opinion on the swhacker broadheads? I know they’re not steel they’re aluminum ferule. But angle of attack gojng in is very low until they open and blades are sharp until inside
Perfectly broadside
It’s a mech
BUT IF the blades don’t get behind the ribs…..it’s going to BONK. I’ve done that.
And quartering shots. It’s still going to have inconsistent blade deployment
Why do you use fish hooks that resemble what you just talked about, long and skinny? Would it be that the point you're making applies to broadheads, stingray barbs and fish hooks?
You showed how long and skinny the stingray barb is long and skinny. It go me to thinking if you look at most antlers and horns are also long and skinny with a few exceptions like sheep and the moose is kind of a hybrid.
10:36 Dud made mention of the axe (mechanical angle) being more lethal than the knife (fixed low angle). But I think what he forgot was that the axe has more mass. But that’s what the low angle fixed proponents are promoting as well, more mass. So really he needs to use the chop angle of a knife instead of an axe to be more accurate to light weight mechanical arrows. To be stabbed by a knife or chopped? I’d take chopped.
Hey Troy where can i get good single bevels of higher grains that will fit crossbow bolts nice and flush? Vertical stuff always leaves a lip on crossbow shafts.
Ironwill has just what you're asking for. I'm not Troy but thats ok lol
@@mikeguy9668 thanks buddy i will check those out. Tis appreciated.
I'm trying the Bear Razorhead adjustable weight broadheads on mine. Lancaster Archery and Cabellas both have them (even Amazon I think) and I'm adding the Innerloc screw in weight adapters too for getting 225 grains (they go from 200 to 250 skipping 225). While they don't quite look like a 3 to 1 ratio they are close, and are single bevel. Relatively cheap too at 60 per. Some decent reviews as well. I'm after whitetail too and not boar so I am feeling like they will be great on both my recurve (in NY no early crossbow) and my crossbow in VT.
@@jesseherbert2585 thanks a bunch as well. You guys are giving me some options for sure.
Just look at tank rounds they are very pointy😂😂 this makes complete sense.
Approach angle is why I only use SEVR mechanical broadheads now.
What makes a bigger whole? A .22 or 12 Gauge. Blunt force trauma!
Hey Troy, I’m not an engineer but I had a thought-I think a thicker blade would need a sharper angle of attack to overcome the same resistance a thinner blade faces in a soft target. Any thoughts?
The edge is still thin. Once the edge cuts doesn’t matter how thick the blade is. The thicker the better at that point and the stronger it’s gonna be. That’s why rage twists and bends and looks like a piece of aluminum foil balled up after a shot. I’ve killed deer with rages. They can work and do work. But there throw aways.
@@garrettstraffon608agreed, in living tissue it’s irrelevant. In sticky gel blocks or stacked magazines it might matter but that’s not what we’re hunting.
Makes sense. Kill 1 out of 3 if you're lucky & leavevit up to major league B.A. which is more equivalent to a Corporate B.M. I.
@@josephtreadlightly5686 pretty much. But you kinda go in between. Not a rage, not a single bevel, more like a QAD Exodus And be done with it
The Ashby report covers that.
The trade off is that thinner blades are more easily bent dold or broken. When blades bend or break, penetration stops almost immediately.
I can’t emphasize the importance of a pass through for lethality. Working in trauma in the hospitals if you have a pass through wound your chances of survival are much worse. Steve Irwin probably would’ve lived if he didn’t pull the barb out. Tissue will contract around an object that has penetrated into the tissue and can help make a seal. If the penetrating object isn’t in the wound the tissue cant contact around it and no seal is made.
It simply comes down to mechanical advantage. A long narrow broadhead has a larger cutting surface which results in more slicing and less pushing the blade through meat. No one cuts a steak by pushing straight down on it with a knife edge, the sawing action is the increased surface area that does the cutting just like a 3:1 broadhead has been shown to do best.
Buy a loaf of bread from the bakery, take your sharpest kitchen knife and try to push the blade through (top to bottom) then do the same with a slicing motion, blades need to slide through not chop. Preach Ranch Fairy!
Do heads with a convex or concave cutting edge help or hurt you?
That’s a good question. Kudu vs maasai kinda.
Did Ed Ashby use the term "angle of attack" to describe the shape of the broadhead? I'm familiar with that term as an aerodynamic parameter describing the difference between the velocity vector and the orientation vector of the arrow.
Are you one of the guys from Big Bang Theory? I don't think that you are Sheldon; he never ASKS questions.
@EdAshby I agree, but the cord line on a broadhead is always parallel to the arrow shaft regardless of the angle of the blade.
@@turtleman5111 I'm actually a quantum physicist by training, but my current research focus is about the physical mechanisms by which the brain stores and processes information. So, you could say that I am Sheldon AND Amy. Bowhunting is a fun hobby both in terms of the physics of the arrow, and in terms of the neuroscience of learning archery.
@@ThirdLawPair Haha. I was CLOSE! Hey, God bless ya, and good luck this year. I changed my bolt+broadhead set-up this year (again); my KE is about 1.28 and my MOM is about .757, but those dam smart deer have always been about 100+ yards away so far, so I haven't had the opportunity to test my new concoction.
With the short length of crossbow arrows, how heavy a broadhead before it is to front heavy for good flight, ten point 440 fps
I wonder the same thing.. I use 100 grain broadheads and have a 120 grain insert for FOC
To heavy up front for good flight. Is that even a thing? Probably need to define good flight to start.
Going to axes - when it comes to splitting tough wood splitting axes blade length decrease to focus the momentum better, same the angle increase. Splitting hammers and bits drive this principle to max in the axe world minimum edge maximum body and momentum. Dagger design after all had a point and a dagger shaped broadhead will penetrate best.
Now it’s got me thinking of splitting wood, a splitting maul is fat and splits wood easily because the wood splits and moves out of the way. The maul continues to penetrate the round cookie below it. An axe that is designed to cut simply penetrates the wood and is squeezed until the axe stops in the unsplit wood.
I know this isn’t really comparable to cutting meat but maybe it’s comparable to bone impacts.
@@jrhunt414This is a distraction, IMO. The main reason is that bones in living targets are not the same as dry ones. Same principle as trying to split fresh-cut green logs versus those that have been dried out.
@@Ughmahedhurtz yes and all bones are different too as well as impact angle. Bones are also surrounded by meat and ligaments. I’d be interesting to see studies on direct rob impacts and scapula impacts with various blade and tip designs.
Always thought it was better to shatter a bone to allow the arrow to penetrate than to cut the bone and have the bone compress the arrow like a target does.
Obviously a low blade angle and smaller cutting diameter helps with both bone and meat penetration, but I have a theory that the tips ability to shatter bone instead of splitting it is also a factor in penetration. What is your opinion on trocar type tips and their effectiveness when an arrow hits a rib or scapula? I don’t think a trocar tip would be the best for cutting meat or for low energy setups but for high energy bone impacts on ribs or scapula I think it may be worth it.
Put your "theory" to test and let us know.
" *better to shatter a bone* "
Like, it's easier to bludgeon through a ribcage with a mallet instead of with a cleaver?
Think of how many fracture lines a shatter creates. Every fracture needs similar amounts of energy per unit of length. If you cut the bone, you create one single fracture line. You need and lose only that amount of energy.
@@bakters what I’m thinking is that it’s worth the small amount of extra energy to shatter the bone with fractures in multiple directions with the tip of the broadhead instead of splitting the bone on just one plane and losing more energy as the arrow and blades drag on the bone that is trying to compress around the arrow.
I understand that each fracture line takes energy to create but it will clear the way for the rest of the broadhead and arrow to pass through the bone without using more energy.
It’s just a theory, I haven’t tested it. I know Troy and his group have done a lot of testing and I was wondering if he had ever done any testing with tips like the Muzzy trocar type. Obviously just using a Muzzy wouldn’t be comparable since it’s a weak aluminum head with tiny replaceable razors that deform.
Keep in mind living bone is fibrous and doesn’t shatter to the degree that dried bone does.
@@rickjames2618right, you might be able to maul split it, maybe pop it like an oyster, but it’s not going to just surrender like masonry or something.
Troy, do you make your own shirts?😂 if so, can I make that shirt with your permission?
Ranch, what are your thoughts on the narrower the hole, the possibility of lesser blood?
Multiple videos on shot placement, blood trails, etc on my channel. Its simple. Shoot them in the shoulder, Vital V with an arrow than can handle it. Razor sharp. Full pass through is the goal.
Put simply.
Shoot for maximum lethality and put them down fast. Blood trails are 100% UNPREDICTABLE.
Well, not in marketing videos.......of course all the marketing videos show 100% pouring blood....
Until you get to shoot them. Then...
Results VARY.
@EdAshby thanks Dr Ed, you made us all better hunters and I usually dumb it up a bit, to get further knowledge, my Dad always said I'm dumb as a fox😉, I used to laugh but it works 💪
Great video as usual , it all makes perfect sense. So what your saying basically is the head of Patrick would make a better angle of attack than SpongeBob. Keep up the good work.
What’s the long head on the left in the video?
Probably an old tough head. I think they aren't made anymore ,but Grislystik makes one called the Ashby Head. It's 350g. There are also cheaper steelforce heads that are similar but not monolithic.
2 deer that I shot with mechanicals. They have ricoheted off a rib turned and went thru the guts. Not pretty both deer suffered longer than they needed to.
I had exactly that happen as well. I had to make a change and am glad I did.
I’m commenting so I get notified when some defensive mechanical lover shows up in a slobbering rage.
Helped a friend track nine deer one year with those damn flappers. He got dubbed the great American deer wounder..never did find one them. That did it for me on deciding what to shoot.
@@Cummins- you’re either a very bored person or you have a huge heart or you owe this friend a lot. I wouldn’t chase nine maimed deer for my mom. After two id be like ok Becky, lose my number til you figure this out.
Young and dumb at the time this has been almost 20 years ago.
Try looking at ancient arrows they did all the work already
Said owner of company described a testing setup - pneumatic actuator and force meter if I recall. Seems easy enough to put this one to sleep if the testing is done and published. A pork shoulder wrapped in hide wouldn't be a perfect replica of a live animal but I don't think it would matter as much as testing other factors.
The testing has been done and continues to be done since tue beginning of man’s quest for meat. Fortunately for us there’s countless events recorded and then published on TH-cam for our enjoyment.
One of my favorite channels is the perfect place to view these events. They make great videos but they are sponsored or at least favor mechanical broadheads unfortunately. It’s maddening how consistently they achieve embarrassing poor penetration on whitetail. Makes me not want to watch their videos anymore.
Animals move.
@@tolt1776 that they do, but in Ashby's study he made many shots on an already dead animal, making the point moot. I'll admit I haven't looked at the data myself to see if this category was tested purely on live animals.
@@rustinpeace7466 yah and many on live ones..it's literally never been replicated yet everyone wants to doubt it lol. Ashby shot more animals in a year than 90% will in a lifetime. People literally can't understand because they can't comprehend because they never will see the carnage. 99% of hunters will never even shoot 3 deer in a day..think of that! My personal best is 8 deer 4 pigs and 6 goats.
Same folks who preach mechs also go right back to shot placement being #1 factor... but if you put a perfect shot on a critter you can down them with a field point so a 2 inch cutting diameter is unnecessary.
If you can't get a fixed blade to fly straight it's your form or your tune that's causing it not the broadhead.
Perfect shot placement can still deflect on impact or even bonk if you don't have a good broadhead.
@@davidholliday2703I assume they can icepick as well if they’re not sharp.
Curious how this angle of attack acts with a Swhacker broadhead that opens after hide penetration. The AoA would be even narrower.
It’s till a mech
And YOU HAVE BEEN SOLD that it will ALWAYS deploy past the ribs…..that is bullshit. Shoot one quartering away.
Just like all mechs. Blades will deploy inconsistently and you’re back to the same place.
The Swhacker becomes just another "chopper" when opened however it is hopefully in lung tissue when fully expanded, and its blade should NOT be dulled going through the entry side hide and even ribs. I used a Shwacker 2 years ago to take a decent IL 9 point. Long shot. Deer moved a bunch. Like other pivoting blade heads, the Swhacker made a hard turn in the body of the deer. That deer went a LONG way before being recovered. So I pulled out a bunch of Muzzy 4 blades. Deer just didn't go far 30 years ago when hit by those little Muzzys.
Why would you think a mechanical would do anything in .30 seconds while going through an animal? Might as well use a field point!
Well I can give a field update from opening season in TN. 3 bucks and 1 doe killed. Two shot in the triangle, one broadhead broke through a rib before deploying. Did not malfunction. Other two just to the rear of the triangle and both quickly bleed out.
All four broadheads were complete pass throughs, and all deployed their blades flying true through the body cavity, even though one centered a rib. Side note these were also the 150g 3 inch variants shot from a fury 410 and a tenpoint Vapor.
2:26 as a certified card carrying cripple I verify this example 👍🏻
3:01 must be iron Will Bill? Wondering he thinks the steeper angle is better?
Look at knives - a fillet knife has a very small angle - longer cutting surface - for the same reason. My question is about accuracy - some say they start to drift or plane with that much long blade? I totally agree just have this nagging thought.
And who do you know
With Pictures...or video...showing you this drift?
Maybe some guy in his basement.
I will suggest
Ranch Fairy Test Kit Process Playlist.
Proper Spine
Arrows tuned for consistency across the whole set.
Arrows tuned to shoot the point mass you have chosen.
Put in the work. Then they will fly. But folks who just kinda paper tune a light spine arrow and "call it good".
Well, Yup. Adult broadheads won't fly. I agree!
I have watched every video on RF - sniffed the dust and agree with most stuff. Also defletched my arrows and bareshaft tuned before refletching. Made a big difference for me. Great advice. The bigger the fletch the more lift or drag!! In front and at back! I dont need 100% accuracy at 100 yards - good accuracy within 40m is all I need.
I thought the KE required by mechanical broadhead companies was for the broadhead to deploy only. Not a recomendation on getting a kill. I might be wrong though.
I think it's to deploy and break hide
I don’t know
Mechanical. Cutting. Advantage.
Longer broadheads are more likely to deflect off bone vs grab and penetrate. You're right about the super wide broadheads. G5 Montec has pretty much the best angel when it comes to broadheads.
" *Longer broadheads are more likely to deflect off bone vs grab and penetrate.* "
Why would that be the case? It's like saying that a nail is more likely to deflect from the plank than a flat chisel.
@@bakters at an angle it is duhh
@@bakters bones ain't flat genius. You take a nail to something at an angle vs a chisel. What is going to cause more damage 😭
@@IntuitiveUniversity " *You take a nail to something at an angle vs a chisel* "
I did. A blunt object is more likely to bounce off. Chisels are wide, so, by definition, can't be made as sharp as you could make a nail. Try imagining throwing chisel tipped darts.
The angle doesn't change anything here. A thin point thing will bite more readily than a flat, wide thingy.
" *What is going to cause more damage* "
Something that goes in.
Stop it you guys.
The absolute biggest problem with long broadheads is arrow flight. A 3:1 unvented broadhead is extraordinarily unforgiving in flight by design.
You don’t have enough stickers on your truck to recommend broadheads to me.
Dammit.....you got me.
Is it pushing the tissue, or is it cutting the tissue? That is two different things and will have two different results. would be nice to see the data and say the average arrow of 450gr vs 550 gr vs blade angle vs the energy it takes to penetrate. so say the rage with a 450 stops penetrating, say, at 45ft-lbs but with the 550 is is 35ft-lbs. then repeat the test with the other broadheads.
Man I love you.
I got a great idea use foam.
That shows the best results!
I mean, afterall, it's super consistent, no variability and no hard things.
You can prove your theory by rigging the test in a medium that shows what you want.
Post a bunch of pictures on some FB pages. It makes for great content.
I know you love me. We have had such a love affair for what 6 years now. well, probably 4 years we actually liked each other the first 2 years. damn, that sounds like most marriages haha. Why would we want to test broadheads' ability to cut in an equally resistant target? That makes no sense. The only place I know where anyone actually looked at penetration in a foam target and compared it to an animal was Dr. Ashby in the 2008 updates, where he was explaining about FOC and why, with a trad bow, FOC increases penetration. It just seems to me since you are trying to explain the broadhead angle, You could do some good testing on pigs. @@RanchFairy
Come on over to this channel Dudley you can learn something. There's no need to go through life with blinders on.
It’s all common sense! Which some don’t have! You just don’t wanna fight with them let them think there right, even though they’re not
As anyone who as ever dug a ditch by hand can tell you, picks penetrate earth way better than sledge hammers...
I would say 1st one on the left @200 grain. Idk tho
better for the knife edge of a broadhead to slice through, than to chop through.
Must be thick enough and heavy enough to drive through, without breaking.
We all know by now, that slow moving heavy projectiles penetrate deep.....especially if they are traveling straight, on impact.
Christ Bless!
I agree that the angle of attack on the edge matters, but I wonder how much surface area on the broadhead affects the drag. We all agree that the width of the head affects drag, but the length of it does as well, there's just more material dragging against the faces of the edge and the sides of the head. I just don't know how much that matters in relation to the arrow shaft's surface area. A 3" x 1" head is going to have just over 1.5 sq in of surface area, while a the shaft is going to have significantly more. Though it is following through a larger hole created by said head.
Mechanical advantage.
💪🏽🇺🇸🏹
"You're not supposed to date yourself"
Tell that to my right hand
I love how people cant actually believe scientific facts...these comments are fucking hilarious...."dudley this and dudley that" or "i blah blah ya but troy blah blah he fishes and shoots pigs" TROY obviously is NOT doing this to create fans or social media friends...OTHERWISE he wouldn't be so intent on focusing on how stupid everyone WANTS to remain....
Someone is paying attention. The old RF is just trying to spread concepts to improve lethality.
By the way, More People need to buy some damn fishing rods. You can fish all year long!!! It doesn't suck!! Solid comment.
@RanchFairy once I guided in Alaska fishing become less romantic...from there I spent 7 years on my dad's 1400 acre target rich ranch on maui...I've killed more in one day than most in their lifetime and everything about ashby intrigues me...everyone talks shit yet nobody is even remotely trying to replicate what he did...narcissism is a helluva drug! I lost two fairy 200s last night because no blink blink nocks...blink blinks protect the broadhead investment...first year with the recurve over 6 encounters between 40-60yds with BIG bulls last night had a 5 point called up to 7 and well shit got weird then after that he was at 35 broadside and my arrow zipped over his back while shaving some hair...both broadheads gone 😆 🤣 best elk season of my life without notching a tag by far.
if you are going to use shark teeth you need to acknowledge that the bottom teeth are long and slender and used to pierce and grab. The top teeth are broader and designed for side to side cutting. Hell solve it once and for all, Put a scale on the arrow and push it thru. That will tell you which is the best and no one can argue actual numbers.
Until you add velocity. Then..v squared starts to, well, square per the drag equation.
Shark teeth have a tremendous amount of pressure behind them.
It is variable.
And sharks tend to shake and roll to keep cutting action up.
@@RanchFairy exactly. the tooth makes a great analog until you add the shark. All in all I was being a bit facetious with the trolls. Ya the whole velocity square reeks of physics 11 and I'd rather forget that year of school. All I know is that thanks to your videos I'm coming up with a better design to my wood arrow builds to get better over all weight.
🍭 🍬 now get into the van ,please.😮🤔😉🤪🤣😆😂
I can’t watch this right now but one thing that drives me bananas, actually 2 things: using gel as a test medium for whitetail deer, and not weighing the penetration in gel against the stickiness of the gel braking against the larger or smaller surface area of broadheads. Take Iohn Lusk, I really like his comparative approach but he loses his logic on the gel. Well, that and some aspects of the durability testing. Comparison is one thing, conclusions about performance are another, ESPECIALLY when it comes to penetration. Furthermore, part of the point of the 3:1 ratio is leverage and less wasted energy when opening bone to slip through, not necessarily that it slices meat better.
It does slice meat better though..research "scalpel" Lusk is a TOOL...A BLUNT TOOL
@@tolt1776 which of the heads are shaped like a scalpel? Not the 3:1 🙄. I also said part of point and not necessarily. But go ahead insulting a guy who don’t know. He’s a pastor, I doubt he’s much of a jerk or a dipshit.
@@tolt1776 I didn’t say they don’t cut better, I said gel can’t measure it because it’s sticky and it stops larger heads sooner.
@@jcarry5214 cool.. pastors can be pedophiles and are just people.
@@jcarry5214 duh
here I'll save you some time.. no angle of attack doesn't generally matter. the ability of a broadhead to retain is sharpness is what matters
They both matter…
That’s hilarious.
Make a drill bit but shape it like a mechanical broadhead
The only difference would be speed and lbs behind a broadhead compared to animal
So, I'm going to guess how you decided this. Meaning If you use a terrible angle of attack broadhead, somehow you can overcome the additional pressure exerted on the target.
That might be true if our velocity could increase 50-70%. But it can't, these aren't bullets.
Given we can only add 20-40 FPS, 20% or so, Newton's 3rd law jumps in the way of speed and pounds....The tissues push back harder as poor broadhead design INCREASES the amount of pressure required, to the tune of:
Velocity squared. NOT double. Squared.
If the arrow was going twice as fast....somehow, the drag would quadruple.
OK, You brought it up… I really feel like I learn from your content and it makes sense to me as you present it. But I get flustered with you over a few things. After listening to you and reading the Ashby updates…
1) You have told me in a reply you prefer the Magnus Black Hornet Ser Razor (foamer) over the Stinger. But the angle of attack is much better on the Stinger. The Stinger clearly has the mechanical advantage. But if you find the Black Hornet performs better how does that play against the Ashby reports? Am I misinterpreting what you have said?
2) The Tuff Head broadheads with your name are 3 blade and a single bevel with a ratio of 1.25 to 1.6 (no where close to 3 to 1). 3 blade is the worst blade combination for penetration, even worse that 4 blade. Yes, I’ve see that you feel that sharpening is paramount with the 3 blade.
The odd thing is that I feel like you do believe in the angle of attack story from the Ashby report. I just don’t know why you make the recommendations and endorse the products you do. Is this a matter of numerous compromises to get to a blade that has integrity and yet are single bevel and a weight folks will buy?
It's all about baby steps really. The Hornet is his choice for mass market shoppers, and he's even stated he doesn't understand why it performs the way it does. The 3 blade is to get people into a high structural integrity monolithic head that is easy to way to get people used to sharpening. The smaller single bevel, at 200 grains, is a way to get folks into the single bevel world. Troy has also said he doesn't want to endorse a 125-175gn head, despite not making as much money, because it reduces the steel which reduces its strength.That said, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he released a 225-300gn head in the next year or 2. The 3:1 Tuffhead 300gn+ head is one that most people would, and do, scoff at initially since it weighs 70-90% of their total finished arrow weight by itself. Someone like me who shoots a 200gn single bevel now will probably jump to the 300gn Tuffhead in the future as long as I can make the arrow fly with 300gns of point weight.
3 blades are for people who don't believe yet but want to experiment with FOC....if you shoot 150-200 grain inserts then any broadheads will work lol
I’m sick and tired of experienced archers looking for the best setups. If they are still not happy with performance it only means that they have not done the work! Shoot heavy - vertical bowers stay away from mechanicals. I shoot mechanicals with my x-bow, but it’s also sending 500gr. arrows down range at 450 fps. Almost impossible to get perfect flight at that speed. I’m still trying though, and I will succeed because I’m putting in the work!!
No, you won't and you are doing work you are being dumb...mechanicals are gimmicks...furthermore the avg weight of stone points of our ancestors is over 200 grains all day. FOC is ancestral sound.
Says he is experienced, then says he is still working. Contradictory statement.
I want sub one inch groups to 40 yards! That’s with field points, successful-That’s with Swacker 150gr mechanicals. Got that today! Happy for that!! Working on my Magnus Stinger killer bees,as I type this- 2.25 groups. Not acceptable for me. All heads are 150gr. or close to it. 6 built arrows that I built and there’s no adjustments to the scope to get these results. Like I said….. I am putting the work in and it is worth it ! I. I can grab any one of arrows and put it in the bullseye at 35yards. Soon I will have the fixed blades dialed in and any of my arrows,even a mix will be scary accurate!! At 40+yards
Just trying to improve on my setup-For the animals sake!!
Plus it’s gratifying as hell !
@@MichaelLakota-vc4tk think about this..why would you use a broadhead that stops the arrow from spinning upon impact?
I will go out on a limb here as you guys seem to say in this case. I'm not a hunter, nor anything close to a scientist in my eyes but i do have some thoughts and i would love to see what kind of answers i get.
In order to simplify my hypothesis i'll generalise a few conditions first. I think one decisive parameter for the resistance an arrow, or any projectile faces in a matrix is the area of engagement, in other words the width of the arrowhead. The larger the head, the more resistance it will face. So in the following i will assume that all arrowheads have the same width, only the angle of attack of the edge is different. I'll also assume all arrowheads have the same sharpness.
So if my thoughts are right your hypothesis would be that a shallower angle of attack would lead to an easier ramp (wheelchairthingy). And i would tend to agree with that assumptions if we were applying the force in the same manner as a guy in a wheelchair would, that is continuously putting more work into it.
But in this case i'd think that we start with a bunch of kinetic energy and would loose more and more the further in we go. Therefore a shallower angle of attack would mean that there is far more contact surface of the arrowtip in the matrix before the full width of the arrowtip has had time to penetrate the skin or outer layer of the matrix. Therefore the arrow would have less energy at this point. But the work that has to be put in would still be the same since it's the same width.
I think in Tod's workshop they did a piece on arrowtips of medieval era. And they concluded that not broadheads but the kind that was larger at the front and got thinner towards the back penetrated better because they had more energy to punch through at first. It wasn't about soft tissue though so maybe that might make a difference.
I think this would require some rocket man science to resume this. And i hope to get great and thoughtful and critical answers.
Love your channel, love the openmindedness with which you tackled a formerly foreign topic. Thanks for that.
If you are arguing with what RF is saying you have money involved in said product ….. I have never shot a flapper they just seem cheap and look like a gimmick…. I have always just shot a muzzy but what he’s saying makes so much sense to me … but I’m retarded also 😂
You should have stopped at have you ever seen a 90 degree dagger. Pointed 2 blades have been around for centuries worked work and will work. Marketing definitely works too 😂
It might take another 5 yrs but the anti- everything people might be able to 😅prove their point tha if the mechanical with the largest cutting diameter isn’t huge that bowhunting should be outlawed!
Wait now...Troy...the total amount of work necessary to push that wheelchair up the ramp is the same as it would be to lift it straight up onto the porch. You're measuring force, not total work. So once the entire broadhead is sunk into the flesh, a one inch wide broadhead will encounter the same resistance regardless of the rake angle, with variations due to friction. The wheelchair analogy doesn't work because the broadhead has to cut the entire length of the wedge at the same time, and you lose your mechanical advantage. BUT, there is a huge advantage when the broadhead strikes hard objects (bones), where the bone surface is breached by the very tip of the arrow, and where it is pushed by the entire weight of the arrow. In that case the total work is divided by distance, and your wheelchair analogy is once again relevant.
Love your videos, man.
Try pushing a wheelchair up a ramp and then try lifting it up and putting it up and putting it on the top platform. Much harder to do.
@@davidholliday2703 It's just not the same. if you took a very sharp 1-inch chisel and stuck it into flesh you would be cutting a 1-in channel. That would require the same amount of energy as cutting a 1-in channel with any broadhead of that width. The rake of the broadhead does not reduce the amount of flesh you need to cut once the broadhead is fully inserted. You aren't pushing the tissue aside (like a wheelchair up a ramp) so the wedge doesn't make it easier. You still have to cut a 1-in channel in the flesh. The angle of the broadhead doesn't push it out of the way. I there will be less stress on any one portion of the edge because there's more edge, but the blade has the same amount of flesh to cut. That mechan
@EdAshby Very true, and the wedge is very useful to separate and displace matter. It is very effective in breaking hard matter, like bone. But the broadhead's job in soft tissue is to cut it, not to displace it. They are made of thin sheet metal so they have as little purchase on the flesh as possible. They are specifically designed to cut flesh, and not displace it. So a one inch wide broadhead will encounter the same resistance as a one inch wide chisel because the soft tissues get cut by the sharp edge of the blade and run along the sides of the blade. The tissue doesn't get a ride up the wheelchair ramp because the ramp is the edge of a razor blade. So the tissue is cut in place, and not displaced by the wedge of the broadhead.
Some of this is downright dumb. Everything Ashby says is pretty much moneyless and from where I sit correct and he is sitting next to our dear God. I thank God that I agree with Ashby (and God). Don’t make it up but go with the smartest Guy in the universe and his buddy. It’s much less work and will always give you the best God given results and besides, you won’t make any money anyways unless your a bowganster. Amen
I'm not going to question the physics as this is actually fairly accurate. The only issue is it isn’t more acute = better. Its diminishing returns. Iron Will has demonstrated this. The question is - is penetration THE LETHALITY problem? Are we even working on the right issue?
Even Rage guys sat they get pass throughs the majority of the time. I don't shoot a rage or mechanicals unless it's for a follow up shot or pronghorn. The reality is that most animals lost aren't lost due to penetration - it's because they were shot back. These long broadheads will do absolutely nothing in this situation. I'll take my compact accurate 3-4b broadheads all day every day.
For the average hunter 27.5" 60# compound all evidence indicates it's not the driving factor. It's number 2 or 3. If you're shooting a long 3:1 unvented broadhead it will not have the same accuracy. The surface area of a broadhead is HUGE in forgiveness.
Don't sacrifice accuracy and precision for penetration. You can get a compact or vented fixed head to fly perfect easy. More surface area = lower forgiveness in flight. Especially when you're at your worst.
HA AHAHAAHAHAHAHA
Iron Will is a broadhead company, guess what broadhead was the best one tested????
HMMMMMMM - youre a sucker for that.
@@RanchFairy well unfortunately, we can't rely on guys like you to put out unbiased testing data either. So I have to go with the most sound - hard data available. The Instron data he's put out is some of the best out there.
@@RanchFairy I love how you targeted one small factor of what I said. I notice you do that a lot to discredit people. My primary question is: Is penetration THE lethality problem? Is it what we should be obsessed with at all costs?
I put together polls on various forums, THP Facebook, ArcheryTalk, Rokslide and others asking the question: when you've lost an animal - what do you believe the cause was? A very small minority percentage reported that penetration is what they believe was the limiting factor. Obviously it's self reported data but we don't have other great sources for that. This is what I've personally experienced in bowhunting and those around me. In my personal contacts, I've only heard one story of an elk getting shot and not getting through the near side scapula. That was my uncle at 25.5" 60# or less 20+ years ago. Range errors and shot placement too far back are the primary causes of wounding. Heavy single bevels don't help in these situations. Aron Synder and Cody Greenwood were right in that podcast - have a setup that works for plan B which is most likely back. A sharp 3b, 4b or 2b with good size bleeders will help.
Shuffle your feet brother.
So are stairs like a serrated broadhead? Would you rather walk up stairs or a low grade ramp to reach a 10ft height? Jk
Angle of attack is absolutely related to the wheelchair ramp analogy. Simple machines people. Think back to your physical science class.
If anyone has a brain, I’m not sure why RF even had to make a video of it.
Common sense isn’t very common…😂
An engineer, who designs and makes broadheads, that fails to correlate a simple and rudimentary explanation of geometry should probably find a new career path and hobby 🤷🏼♂️
Cool avatar poser lol
@@tolt1776 glad you like it
@@jasonmc6997 I see your degree is in douschbaggery?
You need to buy better knives 😂
I'm surprised a man who understands the importance of science attributes the design of a stingrays barb to "god".
What scientists invented the stingray barb?
You people arguing about what this person uses and what someone else is shooting helps nobody. Quit the child's play (oh my dad can whoop your dad crap) just try to be educational. The sport doesn't need this.