Arrow Speed Analysis (Can you beat the animals?)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ธ.ค. 2024
- Lots of folks out there trying to "prove" that faster arrow will beat the animals. Well, they are wrong. The animals have a vote - Click Play.
Ashby Bowhunting Foundation Cape buffalo Testing 2021 - Scroll to bottom: www.ashbybowhu...
Great Products:
Tuffhead Evolution - Order Here: www.siriusarch...
Magnus Broadheads: www.Magnusbroa...
Sirius RF Arrows and RF test Kit: siriusarchery....
Ranch Fairy Field Point Kits: siriusarchery....
Adult arrow binge list
1. Heavy Arrow Handload Video: • Bare shaft arrow tunin...
2. Bare Shaft Nock Tuning: • Bare Shaft Nock Tuning...
3. Fletched Nock Tuning: • Nock Tuning Fletched A...
4. Unpredictable Blood Trails: • Bloodtrails are NOT Pr...
5. How Broadheads Kill: • How Broadheads Kill
6. Broadhead Penetration Basics: • Broadhead Penetration ...
![สาวเมืองเพชร - ธีเดช ทองอภิชาติ [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kEt7F9PvO3I/mqdefault.jpg)
There's a little-known secret to the setup that'll never be impacted by a deer jumping the string. You have to use an 80# flagship bow with an ATA of no more than 28" within its first 3 months of release (last year's bow is crap and it'll never kill another deer). Use an ultra-extreme-nano-diameter arrow shaft (micro diameter is so 2021) with no more than 4GPI. Then your fletching color has to match the color of your hydro-dipped cams, that match the color of the custom pull string on your Hamskea Epsilon Integrated rest that also matches the bottom pin color on your Axcel Landslyde Carbon Pro Slider bridgelock sight that finally matches the color of the anodized 24s wrapped in 38" Nitto Ridge Grapplers on your F-350 King Ranch with the Carolina squat that's never seen a dirt road or towed anything. Even if the deer drops like an Instagram Influencer's panties at the sight of that sweet-ass truck, don't worry that ultra-extreme-nano-diameter shaft will still find its mark. Oh and don't forget to turn the camera and say "Smoked Em" as you watch him run off with the arrow dangling from the entrance side with the 85gr Rage broken off in his rib.
You forgot to mention the biggest struggle of those guys - between all the gear setup making sure every colour matches with everything, to actually remember and have the time to go out there and actually hunt.
There was a lot that I didn't understand in that entire novel you wrote. This must be 100% accurate information. I shall disregard every point of evidence to anything that this channel has brought up and go with everything you have said.
@@troy4119 you know what they say... if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit. 🙂
The sarcasm in this exchange is absurd!…and appreciated!
Please don’t tell everyone the solution man!!! 🎉😂😢❤😮😊😂😂😂. Beautiful
Greetings! Dr Woods from Growing Deer filmed a study on deer dropping or jumping the string.... Multiple actually and I found them very informative. They even simulated the "drop" with a college student and a computer program. Basically resulted in when deer have their head down feeding they use their spine to lift their head, drop their shoulders and essentially spring load their rear legs allowing them to retreat faster. However, when their head was up, they're unable to raise their head higher to load their back ends. Just some added info that I found worth knowing and seeing in a practical application.
Will say, this year I shot 2 bucks, one mechanical that didn't pass through, then went through your videos again and ended up shooting my biggest but to date with an "adult" arrow and got full penetration and a complete different sound at impact. Thanks!
Was going to mention this myself. I think this makes Dr. Woods results more concrete don't shoot deer with their head down. th-cam.com/video/foRCrnlj0Ys/w-d-xo.html
I recently learned the same thing about a deer with its head down. Those big ass backstraps have some serious force while they're operating, but they taste so darn delicious when they're not
I was going to mention the same video(s) by Grant Woods. I’ve followed GrowingDeer for years and find his content so helpful!
So did i understand correctly that if a deers head is down feeding it will allow the deer to drop more and faster rather than when the head is up high?
@@georgewashington1621 it does not allow the deer to "drop", but gives the deer the ability to use its spinal muscles to force its body downward as it lifts its head, making the deer's body go towards the ground faster than if it's head was up. You should go to the growing deer channel and watch the observations that they published. It's an interesting thing to know when hunting pressured or nervous deer.
Ever since I snorted the fairy dust I’ve noticed the heavy arrow seems to work better than the no 2 pencil I used to shoot. It’s a lot quieter.
The angel Dust I snorted just made me shake a lot gave me ringing ears and I was super fast like an arrow
Great info I am a weekend hunter and I learned more about arrows and weight with your help thank you
During Covid I started shooting my bow again as there was nothing else to do. Did not even have a place to hunt at that time as I had to quit for a few years due to a shoulder injury. Anyway, I was shooting my bow at 60# with the 400 spine axis arrows with no weight up front that the bow shop guy said was the best setup. I did what he said as I did not know any different. I could not group the arrows. I would notice that when I would pull arrows from the target they were never pointing the same way. I thought it was something I was doing. I went back several times to the bow shop and they would help me with my form but never suggested anything else. Just said practice more. I became very frustrated and started doing more research. I found some RF videos and really liked the idea that ever bow shoots a certain setup the best. I know that in rifles but never thought it mattered with bows. I went through the setup with no idea where I would end up. What I found and what is most important to me is that the arrow setup I shoot now shoots straight. Everything else does not matter to me as long as I know that arrow is shooting straight. I think this is lost in a lot of the arguments or counter points to what Troy is saying. I went through the process with bare shafts and shot my 400 spine and what I settled on and have been shooting for the last 2 years is a Sirius Apollo 300 spine with 275 grs up front and a total arrow weight of 580 grs. I know this arrow shoots straight. I have no idea how fast it is going and don't really care. The deer I shoot are within 30 yards and at that distance with this setup I have full confidence in my setup. I am sure it would be effective at further distances but I don't have hunting experience with it. I know in the back yard out to 50 yards it is very accurate. What gets me is that people want to argue theirs is best. I have never taken that from Troy. He is trying to help you shoot the most accurate setup and typically that is the heavier setup.
Last year I shot 2 doe within 30 yards. The first one was a poor shot by me, I was so excited that I shot when she was almost facing directly away from me (to me she was almost broad side). My 580 gr setup with a 200 gr tuffhead evolution entered just behind her last rib, she went down and away from the shot. The arrow exited just below the top of her neck full pass through. She ran about 150 yards stone dead. The second (I waited until she was more broad side) she turned and I hit her a little forward, completely shattering her left scapula and exiting the right side about 15 inches. She ran about 30 yards with her left leg flying behind her.
All I know is that if either of those shots were taken with my 400 axis with a 100 grain broad head I would not have recovered either deer. With that setup I lost several pigs as I was not getting good penetration. Yes a killed a couple of deer but never had the confidence that I had any idea where the arrow was going. Yes I made a bad decision on the first one. Forgive me I get excited and have not shot a 100 deer with a bow. But even with my bad shot I still recovered the deer. the second deer with the old setup would not have penetrated through the shoulder and I would probably have lost that one as well. Most important to me is that both arrows flew straight.
If you shoot a 300 gr fast setup with a mechanical and it works for you Great! have fun and kill lots of stuff. But why come after someone that feels confidence in a different setup? I no longer go the the bow shop in my town because I get chastised every time I go in there because of the setup I am using. I mean, I kill deer at my effective range and I am accurate, why do they care that I am not shooting what they want me to shoot? Thank you Troy for your help. You give accurate information to those of us that did not grow up in a bow shop and let us decide what to do. Love the videos and keep them coming.
I remember calculating this out myself when I started looking at heavy arrows. I don’t remember the exact numbers, but my heavy arrow at 60 versus a 300 ft./s arrow at 60 was only about a 10th of a second slower. A 10th of a second advantage is not worth giving up all the other advantages of adult arrows.
" *10th of a second advantage* "
Seems too little, but let's check their data. 436gn launches at 270 and impacts at 241 fps at 60 yards. Let's average it to 260fps
670gn launches at 221 and impacts at 205, so let's average it to 213fps.
Time=distance/speed, so for the light setup it's 180f/260fps=0.7s
For heavy it's 180/213=0.8s
You are correct, man! It's really 1/10 of a second at 60 yards (rounded to the first decimal point). Seems crazy, but it's true.
This is the kind of "math doesn't lie" stuff that people need to see.
I have also done this with standard shaft 340 440g at 275fps and. 200 725g at 220fps both at 68lbs. I am just "not that good" (to quote Troy) for that miniscule difference to matter out to 40yds. Animal movement certainly insists we get as close as possible...😉. Love the 35lb recure shot btw.
@@bakters so does that mean apon impact with the lighter arrow the heavier arrow still has 18 ft to go ?
Though I think heavy a setup is ideal, flight trajectory is important too right? Especially in woods from the ground or tree stand? A somewhat lighter (430 to 500 grain; fixed head) arrow would have a flat trajectory compared to a 550+ grain arrow. Just a thought from an uneducated deer Hunter 😅
I started bow hunting in the very early days of compound bows. My first was a hand me down, all the cables then were plastic coated metal cables. Arrows were Aluminum and broad heads for me were razorback 5 blade. I don’t know how fast the set up was SLOW or how much the arrows weighed Heavy. Amazingly was able to get good arrow flight , because I sure didn’t know Crap about tuning ! Plus only so so much to work with at that time , rest was a rubber flipper. ALL the deer I shot with that are still dead. Many of my hunting friends sometimes pass on a deer that just looks to nervous. As Troy said “ you CAN’T beat the animal” well not a jacked whitetail !! Looking forward to recovering from both shoulders rotator cuff surgeries so I can play with building even heavier and more FOC arrows. I Love LOVE building and tuning arrows and tuning my bows !! For now I just enjoy TH-cam in my sling. Thank you Troy Fowler for your work and education freely given.
I’ve said for years that you can not make a bow fast enough to keep a deer from jumping the string. I think this video proves that and debunks another theory in favor of ultralight arrows. After watching your channel and tinkering I switched my set up for my trad bow and couldn’t be happier. Thanks for all you do. If nothing else people can make a more informed decision on their set up.
Excellent!
Thanks Troy!
I'm running 650-700 grain arrows, at 55 pounds, on a Bowtech, 2 blade single bevel250-300 grain broadheads.
55 pounds, because I can hold the shot a lot longer, if need be. My Bowtech has a great backwall.
Thanks to your info and recommendations, I am recovering game.
Christ Bless!
Good video Troy.. I personally noticed a big difference when I shot 2 different bulls in the scapula ( bad shots ) 1 350gr which only penatrated 3in and broke off and ran never to find. 3 years later did the same thing again, but I was using a 560gr .The arrow went through the right scap and lodged in the left . Then fell in its tracks.
And it will continue!
Dang never heard of even newbies using 350 grain arrows on elk, rarely even see that used on whitetail.
@@ryker7698 It's all in the shot placement. I use to shoot 52lbs 27in draw 400 Victory Vaps with Magnus 100gr Stingers , slow but very effective. Taken 6 elk and 9 mules with those twislers. 3 years ago I started with 560gr and went upto 65lbs what a difference....death in alot shorter distances with complete pass through
I really like the "bouncers" provided. Great video, thanks again for an interesting comparison/performance, love the sarcasm, as usual...Some of the comments below added some great food for thought. Windy, if they are alert, head up or down on how they "load" to move, great stuff folks.
Great video. I'm a whitetail hunter and realize there are tons of variables that lead to deer "jumping the string". If a deer has its head up and is relaxed you have the advantage. If it's a windy, noisy day you have the advantage. Speed really doesnt factor in much. As a general rule I aim for the heart and if it dips a bit I'm still getting into the good stuff. I'm shooting an arrow around 460 grains about 250 fps, foc around 13%. Cut on contact 3 blade broadheads that I've made scary sharp. Keep the videos coming, your research helps me tweak my setup.
Head up, yes!
The guys over it growing deer TV had an engineer come in and do a sound test with water balloons and gravity they shot all different kinds of arrows and bows, different weights, different heads and different distances. They proved what you are talking about. I suggest anybody who's complaining about what you say should go look it up, have a great day, thanks Troy
So to clear this up.
The engineer proved gravity UNDER THE ASSUMPTION that the deer moved at a constant rate downward.
That is a false assumption which I discussed. The animals vote
Ballon’s and gravity do what they are told by nature
@Ranch Fairy- If you need to do single-frame seeking on video, it's usually the comma and period keys. (The < & > keys, but no Shift key). Helps get the right frame at 10:45. Pretty much anybody would have missed that deer.
That’s the point
The animals vote. So the super fast deer and the deer that move little then one stands still. Getting there faster or slower is completely unpredictable. However
When you do NOT hit where you were aiming because the deer moved - you now have a different and varied target / substrate (ribcage intended - now shoulder blade introduced by deer lowering) to shoot through than you originally intended.
It’s not a shot placement issue - the arrow is on the proper shot line.
The animals vote
My thing is, if you're shooting a heavy arrow and aiming immediately above the elbow, it shouldn't really matter if the animal jumps. If you hit where you aim, animal is dead, if it jumps, you're still in the vitals. I just had this conversation the other day lol.
Exactly. Otherwise at a 60 yard shot this dips-- are aiming two feet over the animal
I shoot compound, recurve and longbow.
1) adult arrow is good. FOC increases momentum and thus penetration.
2) adult arrow is good. Heavier arrow absorbs more energy from the bow making it quieter.
3) a well tuned bow is quiet, D style longbows being the quietest (in general) tradbows are quieter than compounds.
The deer are reacting to sound and I think sound frequency. The quieter the bow/set up. The slower the deer reacts.
I take a lot of those steep/close shots like you showed at the 18 minute mark, and exactly as you state, when they react significantly (random) it doesn't matter much. The one and only deer I dropped on the spot was pure luck. She was at 33 yards and calm, head down. Shot her with my crossbow, which is pretty darn fast. I underestimated the distance by about 3 yards. Still, she dropped her front shoulders and started rolling away. The arrow hit down near the sternum and went "up" into the spine, which shows how quickly and severely she was rolling to get away. She dropped right there and bled out. Just luck, not the way I expected it to pan out but fully supports your point.
The best argument I've heard against the heavy arrow relates to range estimation and trajectory. You have much less room for error with a heavier arrow when it comes to range estimation. Not saying it outweighs all of the other pros, just saying that it's the one valid complaint I've heard about it.
😂
This might be the tip of the day for site placement at longer range shot placement even with heavy arrows.
--> Titled: EZV Sight Review I Ranch Fairy
--> Check it out here: th-cam.com/video/w0QquaQg9z8/w-d-xo.html
It is so much easier for my old eyes to find my target and zero in on the kill shot, just saying!
--> Troy did another great study title:
How much do arrows slow down at 60 yards I Ashby Bowhunting Foundation
--> Check it out here: th-cam.com/video/mj877sYO9lw/w-d-xo.html
--> Troy also did a fantastic study titled:
Kinetic energy loss in hunting arrows at 60 yards l Ashby Bowhunting Foundation
--> Check it out here: th-cam.com/video/qAY9CvWtSy4/w-d-xo.html
OMG that first elk one. If people can't see that they are blind
I laughed my ass off at the sound effect 😅
@@ThatOutdoors me too lol
Nerfed him!
Does anyone have a link to the original video of that first elk? I have to see that whole thing.
So, let me get this straight, different animals, move in different ways, and at varying speeds!? You just blew my mind! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Troy,
I changed my arrow setup this year because of your videos. From your suggestion, I went to a 300 spine Apollo with 100 gram insert and a 125 gram black hornet. Just shot an 8 pointer at 10 yards and shot right through the shoulder blade and the broadhead exited the deer but the arrow did not pass all the way through. He went 40 yards and piled up! Thank you! I’m a believer and will never shoot flappers or twizzlers again! Dave
BOOM!
Hey Troy. I been following all your advice for last few seasons. Perfect arrow flight. Adult broad heads. Adult arrows. I gotta say I like watching the deer drop dead in 40 yards, rather than tracking it for 3 days 🙄 LOL Thank you Troy
I took a doe at 15 yards with a frontal shot using my crossbow. Arrow moving around 350 fps with 500 grain arrow. I watched the video of the shot in slo-mo and she had begun to duck the shot right as the arrow hit her. Their reaction time is amazing
I used to shoot indoor tournaments back in the early 90s, at an archery shopi worked at, where everyone was lined up, side by side, and firing at will, as you would at a gun range. My competitors who at the time were on the "I got to shoot the fastest bow alive" train, who would regularly come into the shop complaining about deer "jumping the string", at the end of each 5 shot session would turn to me and astonishment that I had already released all 5 of my arrows, stating they never heard me shoot. My reply was always "neither did the deer I've killed". Here are two factors I abide by when deer hunting to ensure I never have a deer to jump the string, to duck. First is, never shoot a loud, noisy bow. Even if it means I have to shoot a much slower bow than everyone else. Silence kills. Second is, wait until I am in the deer's safe zone, if and when all possible. Accuracy kills. Once I learned these two things, over 30 years ago, the deer stopped making it to the voting booth.
Happy hunting y'all!
>>>---------------->
I've never had an animal drop when I've shot at them, but I also never make a noise to stop an animal. I e-mailed a very experienced whitetail bowhunter who has written hundreds of articles for major magazines and has had his own Tv show and web show that was doing a show about deer dropping, and I told him the same thing. He personally replied and agreed that making a noise to stop a deer significantly increases the odds of deer dropping. He went on to say that when he did his first filming that the Company, he was filming for dragged him over the coals for not stopping the deer before he shot at it. They informed him that in the deer hunting filming industry it's politically incorrect to shoot at a walking deer. I always read and heard you should never shoot at an alert deer. Stopping a deer walking with a noise is putting a deer on alert. Instead of practicing making a noise to stop deer I think hunters should spend that time making their bow and set up as quiet as possible and practice at shooting targets that move at the speed a deer walks.
I am going to tell you a fact.
You are "witnessing" a lie when you shoot, i.e. the animals are not moving. If 100% of the animals you've shot, don't move. But we see them move a ton on YT and hunting shows....why would that be?
Trust me, they are moving. If you think I am wrong, buy a camera and video them, then slow it down.
It's amazing what we "See" and what happens.
As far as the "politically correct" way to shoot at a animals, I don't have a horse in the race. You're either a predator or not. Shoot when you're comfortable, shoot platform that will handle impact and
let it eat.
Unless you have a bow that can push an arrow the speed of sound, the animal moves. I’ve seen bucks bolt when the hunter I was guiding “click” his safety off his rifle at 100 yards.
Even if I don't whistle or make a noise to get a deer to stop and they are totally unaware that I am there no matter how quiet your bow they can hear the sound of the air passing over the feathers some feather shapes and sizes are worse than others and they do move if not drop a whole body length trying to avoid whatever threat is there just cuz you don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening
I have noticed the deer can drop significantly faster if it's head is down. Almost like they used there own neck and head as a leverage point to force their body down farther and faster. At least with an alert deer with the head up they can only drop so far and so fast.
@@shadyroids tend to agree.
Until they don't move. That's the kicker.
Complete unpredictability
I started watching the Ranch Fairy a few months ago in preparation for the late season for whitetail here, wanting to learning as much as I could as a relatively old late starter in bow hunting. I started to build my own arrows, got the testing kit, after discovering--I know that's worth a laugh, that last year's whitetail was taken down with a 290 gr arrow, one lung penetration, only about 4 inches of penetration. I worried me after watching these RF vids. I put together a few different arrows ranging in weight from 460 tp 550, and an FOC of 17% to 14%. My best groups were with the heavier arrow. Thanksgiving Day just as dinner was being served, the biggest buck I've seen stepped into view. I grabbed the heavier arrow, stepped out on the deck, set the pin to 40 yards, and took the shot right in the V. The buck jumped the string, and I saw the lighted nock as he ran off. 50 yards later he was stone dead, pelvic bone was shattered, femoral artery severed. Last year's arrow would have left a wounded deer in the woods in all likelihood. I tried your idea in the field, and you were right. Thanks so much for your persistence in presenting the facts, and giving me the best Thanksgiving in my 66 years.
I personally shoot a 600 grain arrow. But, my friends that shoot a 450 grain arrow don't really talk about the speed beating the deer from jumping the string. Most of the reasoning that I hear is that if you have to judge yardage and are off a bit that a faster arrow won't miss by as much as a slower arrow.
I get that. Misjudging by 5 yards with a 600 grain arrow compared to a 450 grain is considerably different.
That being said, I'd rather have the punch of a heavier arrow than the flat arrow trajectory of a lighter one
I would like to thank you very much sir! I killed my biggest buck to date this year with the super nova and a 150 magnus buzzcut on the front of it. The buck was at 40 yards and dropped/turned when I shot. The arrow entered far back and punched through the bucks hip bone and the broadhead was sticking out of the skin right behing the opposite shoulder when we found him. If it wasn't for your videos, I know I wouldn't have gotten that deer. Plan B arrows for life!
The squeak had me rolling. 😂
The speed of sound and animal’s mood certainly enter into the equation vs any weight/speed arrow.
Ove killed a few pigs in the last few years with a bow and none of them have done the same. Hell my biggest didn't even move till the arrow hit it. Keep up the great videos.
Have u tested the sound difference between light arrows and heavier arrows upon release from the same bow. I think the lighter arrows are louder and this could also give the deer a little more notice that something’s coming, would u agree ?
I have. To my ear, a 640gr 21% FOC is easily half as loud as my original 430gr 13% FOC arrow. Along with far less vibration at release.
I think a big part of this is a heavy arrow is going to be quiter than a little arrow because it utilizies the energy out of the bow making it quiter and deer tend to react less to lesser noise
But knowing every deer is at a different place with its nerves!
I shot a long bow with a 700+ grain arrow and a single bevel boardhead and if I put the arrow were I want the animal generally never goes any were because the razor sharp boardhead , heavy arrow equaling quite bow noise.
I agree with what you are saying about the difference in the noise level when shooting a heavy arrow vs. a light arrow! I've been told by my brother he can hardly hear my bow over the noise his emits when we are standing side by side at the range. I feel a lot more going on in my bow as far as the energy pushing the arrow at release, When in doubt, GO HEAVY!
Shooting a hoyt ventum pro 30 set at 72lbs 29inch draw 500 grain arrow setup pushing 270-275 fps also with serv titanium’s have shot 2 deer and a Coon same head and arrow all pass throughs no complaints I think that 500grain range is a new home for me
That Cape buffalo shot was awesome!
There is no data that will predict IF, WHEN, or HOW MUCH a deer will react/drop at the sound of the bow/crossbow, sound of the approaching arrow, or in some cases, the deer may not react to the sound, but on longer shots, be reacting to the visual the approaching arrow. I posted two videos recently showing a 500+ grain arrow at approximately 200 fps, arcing to two different deer at approximately 30 yards. The first deer I aimed low, the second deer I aimed center of the rib cage. From taking multiple shots with arrows out of recurves, compounds, and crossbows thru the years, my plan has become this. 1. Use an arrow system with the highest pass thru potential, the majority of the time, regardless of where it impacts the animal. 2. Plan to MISS LOW rather than HIT HIGH. Miss low, animal wins, I lose. Hit high, animal loses (non-lethal hit), I lose (the animal), and many times, I also lose (my $30 arrow).
The one at 11:40 had his head down, meaning half of the way done of ducking down. That is why they will duck more than when they are with head up. That is the reason why I don't let my arrow fly when they have their head down. And I don't care about fast arrows, heavy and full of momentum is what matters to me 😁 thanks for a great video.
Made the switch to heavier arrows and Magnus Ser black hornets. Dude I can’t thank you enough after two many to count non pass thrus on good shoots and a shoulder blade hit at 5 yards that resulted in a snapped off Fmj a mangled rage 5 inches of penetration with a 70lb halon 6 with a 30 inch draw length that’s not acceptable! Keep up the content Troy!
I have to agree with you, I hunt with both traditional and compounds and it doesn’t really matter if they drop it doesn’t really matter how fast your bow is, but what matters most is where your point of aim is. And yes foc is everything.
The arrows I use weigh around 416 grains. I’ve never had an issue but here are the reasons I shoot the 416 grain arrows. To start with they just fly awesome out of my bow. I was shooting the victory arrows with some added weights up front to get an awesome FOC. It was heavy but they just didn’t fly like I wanted. I’m shooting the Easton axis and they are awesome. I have had shoulder surgery and I have arthritis in my shoulder to. My bow is set up to 60# and I can’t even shoot with a thumb button cause of how bad my shoulder is. Lastly I use a single pin sight. When I range a deer at 30 yards there are times he may move several yards before I get my shot off. It honestly helps with placement. The heavier arrows I had set up have alot of arch and if he moves say 3-4 yards then I know I’m not shooting under him into the ground. So far I haven’t had any issues with pass through. I only hunt whitetail right now so having something heavy hasn’t been necessary. Next hunting season I do plan on changing to a 5 pin. Im also planning on trying out some different arrows. This is definitely some good info. Thanks for the video.
You are an educational and funny dude! Two thumbs way up!
Valuable. Thanks Troy
Thank you for all your work and efforts! The industry needs to change! Keep going 🙏
Ranch Fairy, I see consistency in the arrows: bright fletchings and or lighted nocks, plus a buzzing fletching. To an animal seeing that in their periphery, plus hearing the fletching buzz, that is a predator coming in fast for them. Having watched several videos of animals that "ducked" over the years, nearly all had a bright fletching or illuminated nock heading towards the animals in their peripheral vision area. As you probably know, these man-made bright colors are even "brighter" to a deer based on how their eyes and brain perceive the color spectrum. If you had seen a buzzing bright projectile heading towards you in your periphery, you'd duck too! Black arrows matter. ;-)
Great, educational content, as always!
Had a doe turn a full 90° from release to impact. My 570 grain arrow entered her chest and exited right in front of the back leg nicking the bone on exit. And that was just over 15 yards with arrow speed just shy of 290.
Deer can move fast and in any direction or not at all, you never know.
I'm a physicist, and I can say that your analysis here is about half correct. If you are interested, I would be happy to offer some input on how basic physical laws are relevant to your argument.
The funny thing about this discussion is that it is mostly happening among compound shooters with more than enough speed and more than enough energy for almost any hunting situation. The folks who really need to talk about this stuff are trad hunters who are somewhat on the boundary where they may be limited by speed and the boundary where they may be somewhat limited by penetrating energy.
A deer can hear the arrow flying plus the sound of weapon 2.25 -3x before speed of arrow hits its mark.
No matter what weight the setup is
@@CATfishTONYtrue, and it takes a certain amount of time for the deer to move after it hears the shot. A whitetail deer has inertia like every other mass.
My so. Had an old PSE compound. No radical cams. I set it at about 45 lbs, loaded it with some 2117 Eastons and shot it in my basement. Pretty slow, but as quiet as a recurve. I had forgotten how quiet these old bows were.
If time to target was a thing then no one in the 1980's or 90's (or earlier) shooting an aluminum arrow wouldve likely killed anything. For example an aluminum 2117 Easton Gamegetter (400 spine) at 27" with standard insert, nock and plastic vanes comes in around roughly 550gns. The same setup on a 2315 and 2317 (340 and 300 spine) are pushing well over 600gns, and these things were traveling maybe 145-150fps
Head Up Shoot, Head Down Don't - They drop way faster with their head down. Pigs I like to shoot walking or when the group is making noise in the leaves. They don't hear the bow or arrow as well. I switched to 4 bohning heat vanes. The arrow is much quieter than with blazers and some other fletches I have tried. That has seemed to help as well. Another great video!
Big money needs make sales not have dead animals! Great video I will pass around and show everyone! I agree
Love the video! I’m currently shooting a 700 gr arrow set up
Usually when you compare 2 things you try to keep all the other variables the same so you can draw out the differences that are specific to what you are comparing. Your argument is the speed doesn't matter because of other variables?
I believe the sound of the flying arrow has a lot to do with them moving also, but not nearly as much as a compound light arrow setup with lots of noise from the bow itself
Arrows are incredibly loud. I have a theory that they sound like one of those whistling footballs to a deer. It is real easy to tell if one of those footballs is headed your way or being thrown to someone else.
The squeak noise in the first video caught me off guard and I laughed my ass off!!
I mean, it was a solid hit!! Hahahahha
Anyone find it interesting the "shot placement" crew are the same ones slinging a 3" cutting dimeter?
thank you for those insights, one explanation for the no string jump could be that Dears can be deaf...have a good one.
Time to target can certainly be relevant and cut down on an animal’s opportunity to react even more so depending on how alert the animal is and how loud your bow is if it was completely irrelevant they would be ducking bullets based on how loud the weapon is is it perfect no but speed can help as long as it’s a good penetrator and not scarfing to much at the end of the day no matter what you shoot take good shots people
The bullet comp is way off base. The bullet is going faster than the speed of sound...by a LOT!
The video clearly showed multiple different reaction rates. So when someone shows me consistency, animal to animal, for any distance, you win. Until then. The animals vote and they rig the results because YOU have no idea what they will do.
You could build an arrow that is the highest possible performer for plan B?
@@RanchFairy the issue I see is your plan B is for missing forward which already puts u at a disadvantage no matter what your using all the issues in these videos show u need a plan B for missing high in my experience a larger mechanical gives u a larger margin of error because it’s just facts a larger cut makes more damage if your aiming right behind the shoulder like you should be From front leg to back leg your chances of success are higher in my experience what I don’t see in these videos is to many deer running back wards causing people to shoot forward that’s my thoughts at the end of the day all of these methods will kill if u know how to use your set up properly I’ve never found penetration to be an issue with just about any bow for example my wife’s shooting a 500 spine arrow total weight 405 grains and is able to get it threw the vital v as u call it and has so I just don’t see a grown man having to many troubles regardless of his set up when it comes to penetration on a white tail I’ve went down the rabbit hole of heavy and slow and in my experience I noticed deer being able to react faster then a middle of the road arrow
IMO it’s the trajectory and forgiveness a flatter shooting setup offers. Heck even something in the middle weight wise to get benefits from both aspects in regards to penetration & trajectory is the sweet spot.
I went through your heavy arrow program. To a degree lol.I will admit I was skeptical. I shoot a 80lb bow with a 31in draw I built a 650gn arrow and had excellent success. The only problem I really had was certain fletchings were super loud. Tinkered around with different companies and lengths of fletchings and made a killer arrow. So in short thanks for your help and crazy ideas!
Loved the. Video and all your commentary
Thanks RF.
I shoot traditional bows most of my deer hunting. Arrows travel at 130 to 140 ft/sec.
Jumpy deer I never even hit. My setup is slow but quiet, and a pretty unthreatening sound I believe. so the deer I kill stand there and take the hit.
I think heavy arrows through my compound quiet my bow a lot too. With a heavy setup, I believe the hunter has a
better chance to have the standing still animal outcome.
One thing that not many people talk about is that with a heavier arrow you tend to have a quieter shot due to the energy transfer into the arrow instead of rattling all through the bow. This leads to less string jumping because the animal can't hear the shot. I also try not to mouth grunt at the deer to put it on higher alert. I would rather wait until the deer stops on its own or take a shot at a slow walking deer than make a noise and cause it to go on high alert for the eventual shot. My son shot at a deer this year with a crossbow and it jumped the string so bad he shot over its back. That is with a fast arrow and the deer wasn't alert at all. Had its head down eating which I think aided in it being able to drop so much.
Think people need to Keep their target setups as that and hunting setups as that. I've tried to use one bow for bow and is just too much, therefore I have my speed demon for target- 3D shoots and actually have a very basic bow setup for hunting that gets is done. I however never have more than a 30y shot anyway.
A target block never jumps the string ... !
The one dropping towards the end in the fodplot with the green nock I'm pretty sure was Waddell in Georgia
shhh.
Stand behind a archery target (we have 4ft thick wool bales) and see which one you can hear first. My dads 70lb light arrows I could hear almost immediately from 50 yards. The 40# stick bow pushing 883gr couldn't be heard till roughly 20ft (wasn't very scientific just something I noticed while refusing to move back with them and give up my tree shade)
Did you see Teds latest deer shot on HP? Huge deer quarter away gets full pass through and the deer goes crazy then dead it seconds
🙄
Yeah, he got lucky and hit an artery. Full pass thru the guts isn't anything to brag about.
@@drewsroo looked quartering to me🤷♂️
Just another very good video with some no-BS information that people can benefit from if they are willing to expand their mindset you see it's a very simple process free your mind and your A-- will follow keep the video. Moving forward.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for putting the effort into this video with all the clips. My brother and I shoot the same bow (Bowtech RealmX) set at 70lbs. The only difference in our setups is arrow weight. My arrow is about 75 grains heavier and the noise emitted by my bow is significantly less. Also, I never considered the deflection reduction in the heavier, stiffer arrow - but it is visible on some of the clips you showed. Another positive benefit to a heavier arrow. Thanks again
I just watched a Sean’s Outdoor Adventure video yesterday. He was reviewing the Mathew’s V3X. Anyway he shot it through a chronograph, and measured the decibel levels also. I was actually surprised the heavier the arrow he shot, the lower the decibels were. It was something like 3-4 per 100 grains difference.
@@stevepauley2437 you can try it yourself, i did and can prove it. I wanted to test penetration, ordered weights for the back of the insert, made arrows 100, 200 and 300 grains heavier than my stock arrow. I didnt see much penetration increase in the foam target, it was really inconsistent, but the difference in the sound is huge! However i dont think it will play a big role if shooting within 30-40 yards as the sound will still be there loud and clear and the animal will still react to it the same way. But it shows how much more efficient your setup becomes!
@@georgewashington1621 I agree, the animal will hear it, no matter what. I was just surprised, that heavier arrows got slightly quieter.
This makes really good since… Love all the information, and appreciate all the work put into making it.. 😉👍
Like the videos here, I have had the full gamut of reactions from deer that ive shot at with a bow. Ive had deer literally not react until hit. They are the extreme minority and tend to have only been very specific circumstances like very relaxed deer with high levels wind noise or rolling water or both. But ive also clean missed deer that ducked unbelievably far at very close ranges. I missed a doe clean at 14 yards FROM AN ELEVATED STAND. One of the highest stands ive ever hunted from. The platform was likely close to 28-30' up. And the doe still completely ducked the arrow.
I will agree that deer with their head down tend to jump far faster and further than deer with their head up. And like some here have claimed, i prefer not to stop a deer if i can help it. Hunting ag field edges the deer tend to stop on their own either just before entering or only a short distance into it to start feeding. If i dont have to make a noise, they tend to be more relaxed and tend to jump LESS.
Most deer from a tree stand within first pin type bow range, it tends not to really make much difference most of the time. As shown, the angle of the duck tends to effect the impact point far less. And a higher impact point on a extreme vertical shot angle is actually beneficial as it actually provides a better wound tract and exit hole typically. However, i do NOT aim for a higher hit. I aim bottom 1/3 to center and the somewhat higher impact just naturally occurs.
Under the right circumstances id always been confident to take somewhat longer shots on deer than what i probably should, but i missed completely clean on a doe at 51 yards last fall. The pin was on the deer, but by the time the arrow got there, she had spun completely out of the way of it.
Semi-relaxed deer. I dont recall stopping her. I believe she paused on her own. However, the air was absolutely dead calm. Quite literally zero ambient noise. Even with the pump of shooting, the bow sounded very loud. Of course, its ot any louder than any other time, but with corn stalks blowing or a burbling brook running with the wind blowing the bow gets washed out far more.
Herein lies a second and undiscussed reason to shoot somewhat heavier arrows. They are quieter. The percentage of times that a quieter setup decreases ducking is probably not large. However, its more than zero by a noticeable amount.
I shot a string tracker back in the day and I stopped when I missed two deer. Literally the arrow barely made it 20 yrds and I thought it was weird I could watch the arrow fly so well. Turns out it only takes a warm day for those strings to stick together and it’s like trying to free wheel a winch out of your bow lol.
The #1 reason arrow speed has little practical influence on “string jumping” is animals don’t really jump the string. Especially beyond 25 yards, unless you have a crazy noisy bow, animals are reacting to the sound of the approaching arrow, not some random swoosh or snap 25 yards away. Anyone doubts this, go out and find a deer or whatever, turn 180 degrees away from it and release your arrow. I’m pretty sure when you look back over your shoulder, it’ll still be there. That said, heavy, well tuned, high FOC arrows are quieter in flight than twizzlers corkscrewing down range trying overcome the urge to swap ends with aerodynamic drag alone.
A video I would love to see is you shooting a 400 grain arrow, 500 grain arrow, 700 grain arrow etc. all shot with using the 20 yard pin aiming dead center, but at 20 yards, 30 yards, 40 yards, etc.. just to see the variance in drop of each arrow.
The muscle twitch response of animals is phenomenal, as humans we don't understand how fast they are, I watched a ground squirrel change end for end that I couldn't see, its head was one way, then another. Measuring the speed at which a deer drops then turning that into a FPS figure & equating that into a bows FPS would be interesting
@@Guipago55
So their ability to move - which you pointed out - is muscle twitch and highly variable. I showed that in the video
Widely differing on animals.
A falling anvil by gravity is a constant
No correlation.
I took my large 8-point buck down this year with a 582 grain arrow he ducked it hit him directly in the spine and he dropped I did have to get down and put a second arrow in them but I retrieved him 12 yards from where he was initially shot
Strong work my friend!
Much appreciated!
Sponge Bob looks sleepy.
I do agree with you on a cut on contact broadhead and that f.o.c does work. But I don’t think that a 600 grain arrow is ideal. I use a high f.o.c arrow like 18-19 percent foc and my arrows over all weight is 498 grains and I always have pass thru every time. Now my bow is shooting these arrows at 269fps at 75lbs and my draw length is at 27.5. What’s your thoughts on this set up?
Good set up
It's crazy how well my 430 grain arrows work. You would think it would just bounce off. Crazy to think they go through both shoulders and die fast.. all 5 deer we killed this year have all died with in 50 to 70 yards. Sharp broadheads and hit the vital v.. if you like a heavy arrow.. thats great. No issues with that. I like a lighter arrow. That's me. 25 yrs of bow hunting and killing counts for something too
What broadhead?
You’re funny.
This video had zero discussion about the arrow mass “argument”
Honestly - since I had Trad, compound, fast and super slow
It’s a speed discussion.
Well, I mean I did say you should shoot a decent arrow system at the end. Guess we can be friends
@@RanchFairy as long aa we can be friends is all that really matters to me.. we don't have to agree 100% on everything do we?
@@decaturridgebees8761 we killed 4 with thrive and one with a magnus stinger
@@RanchFairy and your hilarious Troy! Thats why I watch! I love your videos. I've been following and watching and commenting and talking to you for yrs on here and on Facebook haha. I've learned so much from you man... just the Vital V and sharp broadheads changed my life .. not to mention all the tuning and arrow flight stuff. It's OK to dis agree and have a conversation.
When is the video coming out that discusses noise factor in heavy vs light arrow?
Can not believe you did not show Waddell's "This stand is cursed" or Tombo from Buck Commander's ( Second ) "Bull at 8 Steps" videos.
Bro science at its best.
Great job Troy, I shown my brother a picture of the off side shoulder joint of a buck that I shot here a few weeks ago and it opened his eyes and goes "well that is when you know you are shooting the right broadhead and arrow set up to be able to do that and not have a blow out." I have shot 4 deer with my bow this year and will never go back to the twislers again after the performance I have seen. Keep up the great work sir.
I had a very nice buck jump the string on 11/10/22. I shoot heavy arrows and the error was 100% on me. I do think it is very important to know (no matter what arrow you shoot) a deer with its head down feeding can drop WAY faster than a deer with its head up. A deer with its head up can only drop at the speed of gravity. But a deer with its head down can whip its head up and create a whip-saw effect, thus driving its shoulders toward the ground at a much faster speed. It's tempting to take the shot while the deer is feeding but you're more likely to make a lethal hit if their head is up before you release.
One thing they either forget to say or are not aware of, is that if you *double* the weight of the arrow, you will only lose 30% of the speed. For example, if your setup shoots 350 skit load at 300fps, your 700 spear will *at worst* shoot at 200 (but likely better).
Actually, we have the data so let me check. Yeah, it's better. According to RF data, you need to shoot north of 750 to get down to 200fps at launch. More realistically, people consider the gain between 650 and 450 to be crucial, so let's see.
450gn shoots at ~260fps while 650gn shoots at ~225fps. That's a flipping 13% difference! *That's nothing!* That's flipping *four yards* at 30!
Considering all the other variables, 13% higher speed is literally nothing. So, people, get real and shoot lethal arrows. The tradeoffs are not worth it!
Southern whitetail hunter here. Adult doe here is theoretically one of the most nervous critters you can shoot at. I believe tho that RF is spot on. Bow speeds in the range of what we are shooting have little to no bearing on hit: TTT is pretty irrelevant …. Couple that with your heavier arrow probably makes your bow quieter anyway. No, I don’t shoot 700 grains, but I don’t shoot 375 either. I’ll take the terminal performance of a little bit more weight (505 gr actually) over any speed/ trajectory increase I gain with 100+ grains less wt.
#ShootMoreTopPin4Success
Reading the comments, I haven’t watched this channel enough to know what an “adult” arrow is, nor have I ever had the letters “FOC” enter my thoughts. I’m 46 years old, bow hunted since I was 19, and I can only think of three years that I didn’t tag out in archery season and had to hunt during the rifle season. Through those years it was thunderhead fixed blades up until Rage mechanicals came out, then I used those. I never lost a deer I’ve launched an arrow at, maybe I just take super easy, responsible shots? I’m ashamed to say, I get my arrows at wal mart, heads too. Heavy arrows must be the next “Sitka gear” thing. Some think a few thousand dollars in camo is required to hunt, or else the deer will know your poor. 😂
All my “data” is in the freezer (a little left on a plate on stove come to think of it, I need to analyze that data)
Good for you. You don't need any help here. Keep doing what your doing. Good hunting to you. There are however a lot of folks out there for whom this info has made a huge difference.
3 days ago I shot a doe at 35 yards standing broadside. She whirled away so fast when I released the arrow that I shot her back on the opposite side and my arrow came out where I was aiming for it to go in, them jokers are quick!
I shot an 8 point buck a few years ago at 14 yards, he was so close I just looked down my arrow without using my sight, the arrow went through and stuck in the dirt about 30 yards out in the fresh cut corn field. The deer ran in the same direction as my arrow went, I thought that was weird, then he turned to look at where the arrow came out of him and started liking it just before he laid down for me! That deer, I called him up along with 2 does that were around 150 -200 yards away from me and my nephew using two of my grunt calls, one was set up as a doe in estrus bleat and the other set up as a mature tending buck grunt...
True Story! But I was shooting light arrows back then. Still shooting the same Hoyt bow. Say what you want about my 30+ year old bow, I know I can count on it to perform every time I head to the woods!
I have learned to tie my own bow string and d-loop, I have restrung my bow 2 times, once by a so called professional that when I got my bow back it wasn't even close to specs... the second I took the time to go through hundreds of TH-cam videos trying to learn how to make my own bow string... Boy was it worth it... just don't cut corners and get cheap string... make the jig just like in the video and away we go...
I Love It When a Plan comes together!!!! Bringing that old bow back to life that is!!!
Have a great day Anthony Lacorte
very seldom i have seen 2 reactions the same. i have hit them with 150fps and 300fps. all we can do is our best, the rest is out of our hands.
There was a study that some college did back in the late 90s or early 2000s on this subject. Basic end point was any arrow speed from 200-400fps at more than 10 yards don't make any difference if the deer is alert and decides to move. Their reaction time and movement can make a perfect shot fall outside the vital area. They had all sorts of data on reaction times, speed of movement, and flight times. The only thing that really makes a difference is if the deer decides to move, and how much. At 10 yards the extra arrow speed MIGHT be enough to save the shot, but only just enough to still get lungs, not heart. At the time I don't know that even a crossbow could hit 400fps with a hunting bolt, but I am not real big on crossbows so I could be wrong there.
So this has been my findings. 100% of the pigs I've shot on video all moved. NOT ONE stood still.
Interestingly:
1. Not all the same amount of jump - it's not a constant like gravity.
2. Then.....not in the same direction - which increases variability.
This variablity, places new, unintended, armor that must be penetrated since the arrow has been released and your fate is sealed.
The animals vote.
If I were to advise people on the best and absolute most lethal possible shot angle. It's quartering away. The animal have NEVER spun toward me on quartering away. So the arrow may miss intended P.O.I by 2 or 6 inches, but the arrow is always traveling toward the vitals.
I would like to input the idea that head up vs head down alters how much an animal (especially long leggers like whitetail) can drop. If you're interested in evidence here's a video th-cam.com/video/foRCrnlj0Ys/w-d-xo.html
The deer in my area tend to not only drop but also kick sideways and up, which adds in a bunch of new directional forces to the equation.
No doubt. I shot a buck this year and he jerked left from a slight quartering away shot . Hit gut. Luckily it did go in deep enough to get lung. No blood trail but did retrieve the deer the next day. 18 yard shot, 50lb bow and 420gr arrow. Animals vote. Deer was found abt 125 yards away straight from where I saw it go.
A quieter bow would be far more effective than a fast bow. Sound travels at 1100 ft/s giving the animal plenty of time to jump the string. Considering the speed bows tend to be louder or any bow shooting real light arrows tend to be louder than shooting a bow with a heavier arrow, I would rather be quieter than fast because you will never out run the sound no matter what your arrow speed is.
Great Video. I happen to agree with you. Animals will do their own thing and there is nothing you can do about it. Try as you may.
Do you think sometime in the Future you could possibly do a video of an Adult Arrow (Bolt) Video for Crossbows
Dragging deer you tube channel did a whole series
Last year my arrow was 29.5 inches total length 440 grain total weight. My bull elk had my whole arrow in the cavity of the elk. It worked fine but this year I added a insert and now my arrow weight is 500 grains. Can't wait to try them out on another bull elk.
I shot a Wisconsin buck this year with a 54 lb. bow, 560 total gr. arrow wth VPA 200 gr. 3 blade. Arrow went through near shoulder blade, through the spine and lodged just under the skin on the far leg (quartering to). He buck dropped right there! Adult arrows make a difference!
Great video! Ive had many discussions with others and talked with Dr Grant Woods of GrowingDeer about this subject...Many people forget that there are a bunch of variables involved that you dont think about...Is it a crisp clear day and the sound travels, are you hunting near a highway, is there a slight breeze and the beech and elm are still holding leaves that rustle on a light breeze or hunting a corn field and the stalk leaves make a ton of noise etc, is the deer perfectly calm or very nervous...For me personally its because of all these factors that I wont shot past 25 yards and prefer to be inside 20...Last thing I want to do is wound an animal...
The math actually does work!
Time in flight is being irrelevant NOT a valid argument. The best case for minimizing movement using a heavy arrow is that brings down bow noise & arrow noise. Drag is proportional to velocity squared and a faster arrow will be louder in flight because of that. It will make that noise slightly longer though. A heavier arrow will bring down the noise of your bow over a really light arrow, but not that much over a moderate weight arrow.
All things equal - 1) Bow noise 2) Arrow noise 3) Same target in the exact same moment. The faster arrow will arrive in less time than the slower arrow = The deer will move less in less time. FULL STOP.
We can use Ranch Fairy's data from his velocity erosion video to do an example. At 30 yards it will take a 436 grain arrow (281 fps launch, 273 fps avg to 30 yds) around 330 milliseconds. A 718 grain out of the same setup will take around 410 milliseconds. This means that the arrow will arrive 25% later than the faster arrow. Now this is only the time for the arrow to get there, we need to deduct the amount of time it take for the first sound of the bow to get there (1125.33 FPS) - which is .08 seconds. And the reaction time of say .08 as well (2x faster than a male sprinter). Taking this into account the animal (if it choses to) has MINIMUM 50% more time to react to the 718 grain arrow at ONLY 30 yards. This is not irrelevant!! Especially because gravity accelerates and animal with time. If you think that an animal won't react more given 50% more time you're on more crack than these whitetail are.
Think of it this way - in the additional time it takes for the 718 grain arrow to get to the target the 436 grain arrow will have traveled 37 yards. Can an animal react more if you take a shot at further distance? Yes. If you take this BS argument presented in this video then you have the believe that a 30 yd shot is no more ethical than 37 shorter shot as it relates to animal movement. Which is not true.
Yes, an animals movement is unpredictable. What we do know is that we want to minimize this unpredictability. You can minimize these by shooting a moderate weight arrow (450-550 depending on specs), a quiet bow, a quiet broadhead and quiet fletchings at a decent velocity.