I bought one of the Zen-Wu blades, too. I didn't do any testing (I'll leave that to the master) but I do like it very much. I'm not sure if I've even sharpened it since I got it!
Absolutely love your product testing. Your iron test has been a game changer for bring science to bear on what has been a subjective topic. Keep up the great work!
Magnacut is the hot knife steel lately. It has a good combination of toughness (resistance to chipping), Edge holding, and being Stainless. The cutting edge so to speak.
Oh wow, that's a significant improvement. That's such a thorough spreadsheet. Lake Erie site says this: "Ultra-fine grain structure including extra hard Vanadium and Niobium carbides for incredible wear resistance", I see.
I think James' analysis is spot on. I am about two years in to my hand tool woodworking hobby, and sharpening more often is actually beneficial, so my original Bedrock irons benefit me as a woodworker. Specifically, they, er ... hone my sharpening skills. That said, I gave myself an Xmas gift of a L-N #5-1/2 last year ... hoo boy, better quality tools (read: irons) do make you a better woodworker. So, if you have the money, great to invest in your craft. If not, you are still investing in your craft.
Thanks professor! Very well done. I’ve been using an Erie tools iron w hock chip breaker on type 11 #5 1/2. Stays razor sharp forever! But had to remove a lot from mouth to get it to project. Well worth it! Thanks!
Great Video. I just received a Zen-Wu plane set that I ordered. Took about 3 or 4 weeks to get here and so well worth the wait. I bought the least expensive set at about $120.00 but now think I will also order the higher priced one that is about $180.00 if my memory is correct? Before this I bought two sets of the Veritas each at a different price. Both are half the price of the Zen-Wu and very good quality, but can not compare to the Zen-Wu. Now you have me also drooling for a taste of the Lake Erie iron. Thanks for the video.
I’ve been using my zen wu for a while now. First, it doesn’t fit in a Stanley. So I used it in my home made bevel up. It just didn’t go blunt. However I managed to chip the blade on a nail gun nail that I hadn’t noticed. It took me for ever to get it past that chip. I think the iron is very hard but brittle. The chip breaker is sharp similarly and I have that in another bevel up as the iron. It works fine. Overall they are great but I prefer my Veritas irons. I don’t know what steel is in my Qiangsheng 6 but that is my favourite iron/plane combination. It works a dream.
This video is obviously worth more than the price of admission. Thank you for your work on this, man. I recently added a Stanley no. 3 to my quiver and spent a day tuning it. I don't know the exact type but I believe it was manufactured in the 1920s. The chipbreaker needed work and it was, itself, already kind of sharp at the tip. I went ahead and hammered - gently and evenly - the bend, so that when I flattened it to better mate the iron, I would have a little more mass to work with. Delicate operation but it worked, no more clogging, and now I have a chipbreaker whose edge doesn't try to be sharp like the iron it supports. The iron, appears to be original, sharpened up better than I expected. Maybe I'm getting better at it, idk. Okay, so do I bite the bullet and upgrade the blade and chipbreaker? For now? No, because I am achieving these really gorgeous results when smoothing random hardwoods as a test. I love it. I'm loving my no. 3. So with all those wonderful metrics you so meticulously tracked and analyzed, should we assume that it's all about workflow? How often do you have to sharpen? How much time does it require to sharpen them? And then in light of the cost, one can make their decision based on these workflow considerations? Or did you see a difference in results on wood surfaces? Do your favorite blades produce a smoother and more shimmering result? I have a tendency to ramble on without catching something obvious that everyone catches, so my apologies if I overlooked anything (I'm really good at overlooking things). But was there not a difference in the experience of actual use, between these different setups? Do you achieve better results on the wood itself with your favorite blades? Thanks again, man. Really enjoying your videos.
I suppose there might be an alternative question: is the best choice of blade, or blade setup, not necessarily justified in terms of a "better" shaving and "smoother" work piece but perhaps the best shavings and smoothest faces are more easily achieved with the better setup? And yeah, that might justify the upgrade, depending maybe on time spent in the shop.
Plain Iron test data: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BX7Reja0P8bI78Pe1DgVy-5D7WD8YuDzg_q4Z3qIlH8/edit?usp=sharing How the test was conducted: th-cam.com/video/lAqzHLMJ0pU/w-d-xo.html Update to the test method: th-cam.com/video/bARPvLAoYG8/w-d-xo.html Lake Erie irons: www.lakeerietoolworks.com/?rfsn=7002427.c12607&.c12607 Zen-Wu Irons: zenwutoolworks.com/products/plane-blade-with-chipbreaker
The difference between PMV-11 and typical plane iron steel, in my experience is impressive. That these have even better durability must be quite noticeable.
One aspect of your testing not categorized is the required prep time to flatten the backs. I have experience with older blades and ECE blades and they typically require a lot of prep work. The MagnaCut blades by @LakeErieToolworks are precision ground and do not require much work to lap the backs. They are great blades and because of how well they are made honing and lapping is quick.
I thought about adding that however coming up with a standard way to measure that was problematic. Also I didn't flatten any of them before use I just put them to use. Everyone has a different level of how flat is flat enough.
Your right (Wright) No idea how to measure this and compare that aspect, but boy is it nice to lap the back of a plane blade that is ground flat!@@WoodByWrightHowTo
LN and Veritas both recommend against flattening the back of their plane blades saying it is done to a much higher tolerance than can be done in most hobby shops.
@Aaron-nj4ou I did not know that, and I have no experience with them. I would still lapping the backs because I would guess that they are factory ground, not factory lapped.
I’ve ordered the Zenwu. I’ll put it in a number 5. I have a Qiangsheng number 6, and a low angle jack wooden I made with Veritas blade. I’ll forward a comparison after it arrives. I am resolved to stop watching. It costs me too much (not really). Great video.
it makes sense that magnacut did what it did. its based on m4, which is used in industrial cutting machines. Magnacut has smaller carbides than m4, so it has a finer overall grain structure.
Thank you very much for your research, I live in Mexico an d I am a fan of woodworking but working on other things. I buy ZW O not the 3 for 50 dollars more or less, but i did not know what i was buying, but i love the feeling of the blade, Here we do not have very much planes, maybe a two cherries A2, by amazon, anth all the others o1 ithink.but you need to sharpen the o1 very, very often. I will try to find the way tu buy the new one CPM. Lake Erie.
Australian hardwoods are something else to work with. They contain a lot of silica which destroys the edge very quickly. To get some idea, to smooth a rough sawn 7 foot length of 4” x 4” you have to sharpen the blade 3 or 4 times. I am going to have to try one of these Lake Erie irons.
The powdered metallurgy "super" steels like MagnaCut have amazing durability in the knife world. It's really cool that someone is making plan irons out it.
Nice! Been waiting for and expecting something like this for a while now. Rather interested in the multitool-side of EDC and these new steels have been sweeping that market. Fun to see them making their way into to the woodworking sphere!
Magnacut has been a big deal in the knife community, I'm happy to see its migrating to my other collections woodworking tools. The hype is real, magnacut holds an edge and sharpens relatively easily while being almost completely stainless.
I have a vaguely similar chart exposing the various plane irons in my work shop. Its the rugged skin on my left arm. Various tufts of virgin hair exist amongst the occasional scars and scabs. I am on blood thinners so very sharp irons really show up . When i am between projects i regularly test all of my 15 or so planes on a test piece even when they haven't been used. They do not lose an edge sitting on the shelf. I have a couple of home made wooden planes with cheap ebay irons on them . Surprisingly they seem to attain an acceptable edge .i have made a chip breaker from a hunk of mild steel which works great ,but this got me to thinkin. Why not make out of very hard wood. Rex K made one using a wooden lever cap with a screw tesioner instead of a wedge. There is still a bit of invenionability in tools😅😅
I'm not a numbers guy, but I'm glad you are. Great info. And, by the way, your wonderfully painful puns at the end are better than anything that you see after the credits of superhero movies. Super hype movies, maybe?
Great video! It was recommended to me by a member of the woodworking club I belong to (Long Island Woodworkers), and I'm glad he did! If you're ever in the area, we'd love to have you come to a meeting.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo hope to see you! Let me know, I’ll introduce you around. Our show is happening right now in garden city,,, wish I saw this sooner to let you know lol
Loved the video. It was a bit plane this time. Sometimes the information was a bit hard. But, in the end, you just sliced through the material and got to the point. (I just had to try. Maybe eventually I'll get it.)
James, incredible video (and iron series). My big concern would be the fit in vintage planes. Can you comment on how well these two fit a Bailey style?
The thin lake Erie tool works iron will fit without any modification at all. The other three thicker ones may require you to file the holes on the frog back a little more or to open the mouth up a bit.
Spreadsheets!😂 Great Video as allways! After your tests I allways want to buy some of the new cool stuff. Luckily most of the time I remember, that I bassically don´t need it. Keep up the great chanel!
Great work. You hinted a bit about feel and usability. With the same plane can you feel the difference between a thick blade and a thinner one? Reduced chatter in difficult grain?
General know you can't really feel the difference between a thick iron and a thin iron. Some people say they can't but if you blindfold them and ask them which is which they won't be able to tell you. There is a little bit to less chatter with a thicker iron but not much. That has more to do with the fit between the chip breaker the iron the frog and the body. The most important thing is how sharp is the iron.
I’m a moderately experienced power tool woodworker who is learning how to use a hand plane. I have 2 80-100 year old Stanley #4’s, a 5 and a 7 I was given 30 years ago. After watching you and Paul Sellars, I have “tuned” them and started using them. Chip breaker to blade fit (chips building up) and the inconsistencies in my freehand sharpening technique seem to me to be limiting plane performance in my hands. What would you recommend, investing in better blades or a Veritas sharpening jig? Also any tips on fitting the chip breaker to iron would be appreciated. Thanks much, love your channel. John
th-cam.com/video/cQzLdMsGCqk/w-d-xo.html here's a video on the chip breaker. As to the honing guide if you're having difficulties doing it freehand there is no better honing guide in my book than the Veritas Mark II
Fascinating analysis! For my purposes, I don't know what would lead me to replace a plane iron, particularly in my vintage planes. I'm probably too twee about that...
Awesome review mate thanks, but damn you. Now i have to get some of the Lake Eirie irons fir my vintage stanleys. Just a quick question. Did you notice any significant benefit of the thick iron over the thin blade? I can tune the planes if the difference is huge but if not, i will keep it thin.. Situation is complicated given that i am in Australia and postage is a killer si want to get it right. Thanks Skippy
I do not have a huge benefit between the thin iron or the thick. but some people claim it has less vibration. I have not found that to be the case in a well set up plane.
MagnaCut is a relatively new steel designed by the son of one of the worlds best Damascus makers, who is a PHD in metallurgy. It is an incredible new stainless steel made for knives.
Nice artical, never heard about the Erie brand irons, I do have to say that harder steels are better though. I have never done any real tests on plane irons, but I prefer a harder steel. The hard steel takes more time to sharpen, but they hold the edge a lot longer than the softer, easy to sharpen steels, those simply don't hold an edge very well. I spend almost as much time sharpening them as I do using them. I have a couple dozen planes, a few spokeshaves, and some draw knives (most of them older than I am), and in my experience, the harder it it to sharpen, means I can often go a year more before needing to sharpen it again. Softer, easy to sharpen irons on the other hand means having to sharpen them every week, or at best monthly. have a belt knife that I made from an old plane iron, it's sharp enough to dry shave with, but in the 40 years since I made it, the only sharpening its seen was to stop it over my leather belt once in a while.
Thanks. Up until about 40 or 50 years ago harder is more durable used to be pretty true. Up until a point. If it gets too hard it's in the edge becomes brittle and it shatters as opposed to roles. But in the last 30-40 years with some of these new steals coming out it no longer holds true. If you look on the far right side of the spreadsheet I have a correlation chart between hardness and different aspects and the only one it really is close to is hardness and sharpen ability.
The magnacut is stainless. I read a test on high carbon knives vs stainless that demonstrated that when left in mildly imperfect environments (humid or whatever) for a month or so, the carbon steel would lose some keeness due to edge corrosion. Would love to see you test this.
I hesitate to market them as 'stainless' because there's a popular misconception that carbon steels automatically have better performance than stainless and since it's a stainless steel, it must be inferior. Do you have a link to that test?
I heard that but I haven't seen any practical testing on it. On top of that if it did it would only be at the tiniest atomic level. And at that level it really doesn't make any difference at all to the usability of the edge.
I switched over to Lake Erie plane blades and enjoy their stay-sharp performance. I also signed up early for their powder metal marking knife which I also like. However, when the production version came out I was surprised to see that they had swtiched to a different steel alloy. According to Lake Erie the new production steel is the best steel for a marking knife. But the new steel is about a third as costly as the original Lake Erie powder steel in my prototype. I am left wondering which is truly the best marking knife steel, irrespetive of price? Can you consider a future marking knife test, not necessarily restricted to these two choices? Your dedicated viewer, Marvin McConoughey
Those jokes weren't quite cutting edge, more like trying my 'temper'. Yet I remain elastic, hard enough, and strong while not being brittle. Oh, the materials science of it all!
I've actually been experimenting with some of the old "junk" plane irons I have and comparing them to the Defiance line. I've got several Defiance irons that I have sharpened up and put through some brutal tests on my own and a couple of them out performed the mainline Stanley irons... I just did it for comparison for myself but it is still interesting.
James, I'm surprised that no one has seemed to make plane irons out of beskar. It seems like it would be an optimal steel, certainly for edge retention. Maybe too hard to sharpen? Might be a business opportunity if you can secure a batch...
Ok, so the major take-away I got is that the best iron for my planer is the Lake Erie Steal at $80, stay away from Harbor Freight (I believe blacksmiths have the same opinion about their anvils), and that a cheaper iron just means you sharpen more often... As a novice, I am thinking that, while a bit more work, a cheaper iron would expose me to more experience seeing the changes and working the whetstone, leading to a better skillset for when I "Git Gud" as the kids say... so what cheap iron would you recommend?
No. It only has to be thin up at the nose. The only other problem is that the screw might not be long enough to hold the lever cap but in all of them that I tried that's not a problem.
I pre-ordered five Lake Erie blades when Nick first announced the line. There were ups and downs in the manufacture but they did arrive and I am pleased. The blade finish is really good. I use diamond plates for flattening backs which show any flaws. The Lake Erie backs are really flat on delivery. For me that saves the most sharpening time. Putting on a secondary bevel takes a couple of minutes. The back prep by Lake Erie puts me way ahead on initial sharpening over Lie Nielsen or Veritas. One of my new plane blades will go in a Lie Nielsen shooting plane. I have found the A2 blade supplied with it chips when trimming hard end grain like oak. Lie Nielsen might should consider offering these blades in their shooting plane.
Those Zen-wu steels sure look neat, but the thick Lake Erie has a (marginally) higher score at half the price. What do the Zen-Wu steels bring to the table to justify the price? Not challenging you, just interested to see what they do.
The marginally better numbers are well within the variability of the test. All four of those are almost identical. The big reason why the Zen-Wu irons cost so much is the amount of time put into all of the details and fitting. They took all of the marks for functionality flatness and usability but then go farther into the fit and finish. There's a lot of people who will pay a significant premium for something that will do the job and looks incredibly beautiful. Just check out Sour and Steiner.
I think you should cheek your price points.... The Zen-Wu blades with chip breakers are cheaper than the listed prices..... Which make them the outstanding choice.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo your internet pointer is for the steel backed laminated blade. The titanium one is twice the price, as you point out. The differences in the edge should be non existant as the steel or titanium back should not make any difference in the edge Would you please check by matching pictures to be sure you have the titanium. I think the two versions look different?
I ordered a 2 inch Zen Wu blade ( the steel one, which is cheaper) in August, it was shipped promptly. It is now October (7 weeks later) and my blade is not yet arrived. It seems to be stuck in shipping. If you order for yourself, be prepared for a long wait. I will update this information when I receive the blade.
Maybe its too early for you to even know, but how do these irons perform when they start to get dull? A2 and O1 seem to behave a little differently and I have heard that PMV-11 behaves a bit more like O1 as it gets dull.
the grain size is so small they micro fracture. not enough that you can see but they just do not bight as well. the edges do not roll like O1. and they don't get streaking chips like A2
I hope you get to make that plane for the Zen Wu iron. Wooden planes are bar none my favorite users and its a bit sad that you see a lot of people make them, but then just having them as decoration, I wonder if you start using the one you make!
How did you manage to fit the Zen Wu iron into your Stanley? Did you modify the throat? I just bought the Zen Wu iron and it won’t fit in my Stanley. I can’t spend another few hundred bucks on something like a Lie Nielsen to find out. It serves as a paper weight now. What a waste.
Yes you have to modify the throat for that one. Most large irons on a Stanley have to modify the throat. But this one is big enough that even on a Lie Nielsen you would have to open the thread up a bit
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Good to know. I might have to modify my only Stanley smoother for this iron. I hope it's really as great as it's advertised so it can stay permanent it that plane. Thanks!
I haven't come up with a good way to measure vibration. But in my experience even the cheapest thin iron can remove vibration by sharpening it and making sure there's a good fit between it and the frog and the frog in the body.
Yeah, that makes sense, vibrations will be tricky to measure. But since that's one of the big claim they had, I am just really curious. @@WoodByWrightHowTo
I litterally have one plane iron. From a 13 inch not sure what name brand even folded steal frog plane..and it was so pitted i had ro grind it down to nothing. But i use it every day.
That depends. Functionally they're both about identical. In that case the lake Erie wins out because it's cheaper. But the ZenWu is just so pretty. Makes me happy. And to some people that extra decoration is worth the money.
Since you've discovered the Zen Wu plane irons, have you thought of adding the Zen Wu chisels to your chisel spreadsheet. Their two lines look very interesting, one is affordable, the other, well...
This has been really interesting to watch. When I first started using a handplane, and restoring them, I did try thick irons, but they often would not work with the mouth of the old plane I was restoring. The common "solution" was a file, and widening the mouth. Then after a time I encountered adjusting the location of the chip breaker, since then traditional thickness has worked perfectly. I am seriously considering trying the Lake Erie.
Hi. Do mind if I ask you to elaborate on the position of the chip breaker. I’m not having good success with my thicker iron.. how far back can you adjust the frog without having the iron hit the bottom of the plane?
@@alfredobanuelos4730 I keep my chip breaker very close to the edge of the iron. That limits tearout in all but really cross-grained wood. I usually run the plane with the chipbreaker between around 1/32 to 1/16 inch from the edge. I run the frog's slope right at the top of the trailing bevel in the mouth of the plane most of the time. WIth cranky, cross grained wood, I'll push the frog forward closer to the mouth more. If that, with a sharp blade doesn't help, time for a card scraper. The breaker has to be matched to the blade surface with no gap at all in the front. Even a little, and you will begin to find bits of shavings trapped between the breaker and the blade surface. I've had trouble chatter just once. That was caused by a twisted blade. I kept trying to straighten and flatten the edge of the chip breaker, and it did precisely nothing to stop the chatter. I finally replaced the blade and the gap I could see between the edge of the chip breaker and blade disappeared, and so did the chatter.
I'm impressed, and depressed. Using only wooden planes, I don't want to drop $150 on purdy, fancy Zen-Wu blade. I wish you could have tested the Red Rose Reproduction tapered plane iron. They are cryo treated O-1 (Rc 60-62) steel. Perhaps if I buy one, I can send it to you if you want to test it.
Your testing is very interesting and well thought out. Most of my planes are Lie-Nielsen with a few Veritas mixed in. Personally I don’t see a reason to buy new irons. Are the new steels better, probably. But the irons I have are doing what I need and expect them to do. That being said. When it comes time to replace them, is when I will visit these videos again. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I don’t view what I have as broken.
The Lake Erie irons look great but those Zen Wu ('WOOHOO') irons are just plain gorgeous. They make me think along the lines of Bridge City designs. I'd go as far as to say that even if you don't own a plane, you need one of those in your life, just for bling - wear it with pride on a chunky chain or glue one in place of your car badge...! Seriously though (and I know this will sound controversial), the thick Lake Erie iron would transform a brand new Stanley #4, which has a mouth as wide as a farm gate (a flock of sheep would pass through it); fettle the body for a couple of hours, add in proper wooden handles, fat Lake Erie iron and away to go. Simples!
Aaaa I want to get one of those ZenWu irons and make a nice Chinese style body for it with the oxhorn style of handle Oh wow, 180 for the wood body iron version. Maybe in the future lol
Thank you for ironing out the details and making everything plane. Even at the higher prices, modern irons are obviously a steel!
Beautifully pun, my friend.
Now this guy is sharp!
@@Russ0107 Its a good thing he tempered his humor otherwise it would have been too edgy for me. But he whetted my appetite and I'm keen to hear more!
I bought one of the Zen-Wu blades, too. I didn't do any testing (I'll leave that to the master) but I do like it very much. I'm not sure if I've even sharpened it since I got it!
Rex Flexin' his internet success with his blade bling :) well earned!
Absolutely love your product testing. Your iron test has been a game changer for bring science to bear on what has been a subjective topic. Keep up the great work!
Really fantastic video. Thank you for sharing your rigorous experimentation with the woodworking community!
Thanks man. I will keep them coming.
Magnacut is the hot knife steel lately. It has a good combination of toughness (resistance to chipping), Edge holding, and being Stainless.
The cutting edge so to speak.
yeah being in the knife world the moment i head the word "Magnacut" i got very exited"
Let’s hear it for niobium carbides!
Oh wow, that's a significant improvement. That's such a thorough spreadsheet.
Lake Erie site says this: "Ultra-fine grain structure including extra hard Vanadium and Niobium carbides for incredible wear resistance", I see.
I think James' analysis is spot on. I am about two years in to my hand tool woodworking hobby, and sharpening more often is actually beneficial, so my original Bedrock irons benefit me as a woodworker. Specifically, they, er ... hone my sharpening skills. That said, I gave myself an Xmas gift of a L-N #5-1/2 last year ... hoo boy, better quality tools (read: irons) do make you a better woodworker. So, if you have the money, great to invest in your craft. If not, you are still investing in your craft.
I really like your story on the weighting! And the ability to re-order by changing the numbers in your table for different people's opinion.
Thanks professor! Very well done. I’ve been using an Erie tools iron w hock chip breaker on type 11 #5 1/2. Stays razor sharp forever! But had to remove a lot from mouth to get it to project. Well worth it! Thanks!
Thanks for the info
I really look forward to seeing you make a wooden plane worthy of the Zen-Woo iron art!
Thanks James, the time you spent on this and the prior tests are very much appreciated and wow, what a test and results.
James, your enthusiasm is addicting! You have pulled me back from slacking off on my shop time and my plane time. Thank you. 😊
Great Video. I just received a Zen-Wu plane set that I ordered. Took about 3 or 4 weeks to get here and so well worth the wait. I bought the least expensive set at about $120.00 but now think I will also order the higher priced one that is about $180.00 if my memory is correct? Before this I bought two sets of the Veritas each at a different price. Both are half the price of the Zen-Wu and very good quality, but can not compare to the Zen-Wu. Now you have me also drooling for a taste of the Lake Erie iron. Thanks for the video.
I’ve been using my zen wu for a while now. First, it doesn’t fit in a Stanley. So I used it in my home made bevel up. It just didn’t go blunt. However I managed to chip the blade on a nail gun nail that I hadn’t noticed. It took me for ever to get it past that chip. I think the iron is very hard but brittle. The chip breaker is sharp similarly and I have that in another bevel up as the iron. It works fine. Overall they are great but I prefer my Veritas irons. I don’t know what steel is in my Qiangsheng 6 but that is my favourite iron/plane combination. It works a dream.
This video is obviously worth more than the price of admission. Thank you for your work on this, man. I recently added a Stanley no. 3 to my quiver and spent a day tuning it. I don't know the exact type but I believe it was manufactured in the 1920s. The chipbreaker needed work and it was, itself, already kind of sharp at the tip. I went ahead and hammered - gently and evenly - the bend, so that when I flattened it to better mate the iron, I would have a little more mass to work with. Delicate operation but it worked, no more clogging, and now I have a chipbreaker whose edge doesn't try to be sharp like the iron it supports. The iron, appears to be original, sharpened up better than I expected. Maybe I'm getting better at it, idk.
Okay, so do I bite the bullet and upgrade the blade and chipbreaker? For now? No, because I am achieving these really gorgeous results when smoothing random hardwoods as a test. I love it. I'm loving my no. 3.
So with all those wonderful metrics you so meticulously tracked and analyzed, should we assume that it's all about workflow? How often do you have to sharpen? How much time does it require to sharpen them? And then in light of the cost, one can make their decision based on these workflow considerations? Or did you see a difference in results on wood surfaces? Do your favorite blades produce a smoother and more shimmering result?
I have a tendency to ramble on without catching something obvious that everyone catches, so my apologies if I overlooked anything (I'm really good at overlooking things). But was there not a difference in the experience of actual use, between these different setups? Do you achieve better results on the wood itself with your favorite blades?
Thanks again, man. Really enjoying your videos.
I suppose there might be an alternative question: is the best choice of blade, or blade setup, not necessarily justified in terms of a "better" shaving and "smoother" work piece but perhaps the best shavings and smoothest faces are more easily achieved with the better setup? And yeah, that might justify the upgrade, depending maybe on time spent in the shop.
Plain Iron test data: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BX7Reja0P8bI78Pe1DgVy-5D7WD8YuDzg_q4Z3qIlH8/edit?usp=sharing
How the test was conducted: th-cam.com/video/lAqzHLMJ0pU/w-d-xo.html
Update to the test method: th-cam.com/video/bARPvLAoYG8/w-d-xo.html
Lake Erie irons: www.lakeerietoolworks.com/?rfsn=7002427.c12607&.c12607
Zen-Wu Irons: zenwutoolworks.com/products/plane-blade-with-chipbreaker
The difference between PMV-11 and typical plane iron steel, in my experience is impressive. That these have even better durability must be quite noticeable.
One aspect of your testing not categorized is the required prep time to flatten the backs. I have experience with older blades and ECE blades and they typically require a lot of prep work. The MagnaCut blades by @LakeErieToolworks are precision ground and do not require much work to lap the backs. They are great blades and because of how well they are made honing and lapping is quick.
I thought about adding that however coming up with a standard way to measure that was problematic. Also I didn't flatten any of them before use I just put them to use. Everyone has a different level of how flat is flat enough.
Good point, I have restored half a dozen vintage stanley and bought a new veritas and the flatness difference was crazy.
Your right (Wright) No idea how to measure this and compare that aspect, but boy is it nice to lap the back of a plane blade that is ground flat!@@WoodByWrightHowTo
LN and Veritas both recommend against flattening the back of their plane blades saying it is done to a much higher tolerance than can be done in most hobby shops.
@Aaron-nj4ou I did not know that, and I have no experience with them. I would still lapping the backs because I would guess that they are factory ground, not factory lapped.
I’ve ordered the Zenwu. I’ll put it in a number 5. I have a Qiangsheng number 6, and a low angle jack wooden I made with Veritas blade. I’ll forward a comparison after it arrives. I am resolved to stop watching. It costs me too much (not really). Great video.
it makes sense that magnacut did what it did. its based on m4, which is used in industrial cutting machines. Magnacut has smaller carbides than m4, so it has a finer overall grain structure.
Thank you very much for your research, I live in Mexico an d I am a fan of woodworking but working on other things. I buy ZW O not the 3 for 50 dollars more or less, but i did not know what i was buying, but i love the feeling of the blade, Here we do not have very much planes, maybe a two cherries A2, by amazon, anth all the others o1 ithink.but you need to sharpen the o1 very, very often. I will try to find the way tu buy the new one CPM. Lake Erie.
Great video. I can't wait to take a look at the spreadsheet.
Awesome James. Nice to know that steel can still be innovated.
Australian hardwoods are something else to work with. They contain a lot of silica which destroys the edge very quickly. To get some idea, to smooth a rough sawn 7 foot length of 4” x 4” you have to sharpen the blade 3 or 4 times.
I am going to have to try one of these Lake Erie irons.
Love to see testing like this, your tables have guided my decisions in tool selection and sharpening to great success.
The powdered metallurgy "super" steels like MagnaCut have amazing durability in the knife world. It's really cool that someone is making plan irons out it.
Nice! Been waiting for and expecting something like this for a while now. Rather interested in the multitool-side of EDC and these new steels have been sweeping that market. Fun to see them making their way into to the woodworking sphere!
Thank you so much man. This is like liquid gold. So, thanks so so much.
I for one am straped for money, but definitely amazing
Magnacut has been a big deal in the knife community, I'm happy to see its migrating to my other collections woodworking tools. The hype is real, magnacut holds an edge and sharpens relatively easily while being almost completely stainless.
I have a vaguely similar chart exposing the various plane irons in my work shop.
Its the rugged skin on my left arm. Various tufts of virgin hair exist amongst the occasional scars and scabs.
I am on blood thinners so very sharp irons really show up . When i am between projects i regularly test all of my 15 or so planes on a test piece even when they haven't been used. They do not lose an edge sitting on the shelf. I have a couple of home made wooden planes with cheap ebay irons on them . Surprisingly they seem to attain an acceptable edge .i have made a chip breaker from a hunk of mild steel which works great ,but this got me to thinkin. Why not make out of very hard wood.
Rex K made one using a wooden lever cap with a screw tesioner instead of a wedge. There is still a bit of invenionability in tools😅😅
Oooh more spreadsheets 😍 you’re talking my language
Thank you, James! I am hoping to see you in Raleigh soon.
Looking forward to it. Just over a month
Thanks for sharing that! thats a Lot blades!
I'm not a numbers guy, but I'm glad you are. Great info. And, by the way, your wonderfully painful puns at the end are better than anything that you see after the credits of superhero movies. Super hype movies, maybe?
Very cool I think I'm going to get one for my no.4.
Great video! It was recommended to me by a member of the woodworking club I belong to (Long Island Woodworkers), and I'm glad he did! If you're ever in the area, we'd love to have you come to a meeting.
Thanks. I've never been out to that club. Maybe someday
@@WoodByWrightHowTo hope to see you! Let me know, I’ll introduce you around. Our show is happening right now in garden city,,, wish I saw this sooner to let you know lol
Loved the video.
It was a bit plane this time. Sometimes the information was a bit hard. But, in the end, you just sliced through the material and got to the point.
(I just had to try. Maybe eventually I'll get it.)
James, incredible video (and iron series). My big concern would be the fit in vintage planes. Can you comment on how well these two fit a Bailey style?
The thin lake Erie tool works iron will fit without any modification at all. The other three thicker ones may require you to file the holes on the frog back a little more or to open the mouth up a bit.
Fantastic Video. Lovely blades, but definitely stock blades seem perfectly fine.
This is great information! I almost wish I needed some new plane irons!
Awesome...just Awesome. I want the "Zen-Wu" blade. I was hoping that you would do a video on them.
I suggest you add a column and use the “rank” formula (excel). Very useful in making comparisons. Great video James!
making a plane for the verry butiful iron is a good one. love to see that
Very interesting tests!
Spreadsheets!😂 Great Video as allways! After your tests I allways want to buy some of the new cool stuff. Luckily most of the time I remember, that I bassically don´t need it. Keep up the great chanel!
THANK YOU for your hard work!!! ❤
Another plus from Magnacut is that it’s virtually rust proof. Not that your plane body is though. Matters more in knives I guess.
Great work. You hinted a bit about feel and usability. With the same plane can you feel the difference between a thick blade and a thinner one? Reduced chatter in difficult grain?
General know you can't really feel the difference between a thick iron and a thin iron. Some people say they can't but if you blindfold them and ask them which is which they won't be able to tell you. There is a little bit to less chatter with a thicker iron but not much. That has more to do with the fit between the chip breaker the iron the frog and the body. The most important thing is how sharp is the iron.
Sharp fixes everything!
A great sequel to a great series.
I’m a moderately experienced power tool woodworker who is learning how to use a hand plane. I have 2 80-100 year old Stanley #4’s, a 5 and a 7 I was given 30 years ago. After watching you and Paul Sellars, I have “tuned” them and started using them. Chip breaker to blade fit (chips building up) and the inconsistencies in my freehand sharpening technique seem to me to be limiting plane performance in my hands. What would you recommend, investing in better blades or a Veritas sharpening jig? Also any tips on fitting the chip breaker to iron would be appreciated. Thanks much, love your channel. John
th-cam.com/video/cQzLdMsGCqk/w-d-xo.html here's a video on the chip breaker. As to the honing guide if you're having difficulties doing it freehand there is no better honing guide in my book than the Veritas Mark II
Love the video and results are interesting.
Fascinating analysis! For my purposes, I don't know what would lead me to replace a plane iron, particularly in my vintage planes. I'm probably too twee about that...
Awesome review mate thanks, but damn you. Now i have to get some of the Lake Eirie irons fir my vintage stanleys.
Just a quick question. Did you notice any significant benefit of the thick iron over the thin blade? I can tune the planes if the difference is huge but if not, i will keep it thin..
Situation is complicated given that i am in Australia and postage is a killer si want to get it right.
Thanks
Skippy
I do not have a huge benefit between the thin iron or the thick. but some people claim it has less vibration. I have not found that to be the case in a well set up plane.
Great job. You’re a stud kid.
MagnaCut is a relatively new steel designed by the son of one of the worlds best Damascus makers, who is a PHD in metallurgy. It is an incredible new stainless steel made for knives.
Nice artical, never heard about the Erie brand irons, I do have to say that harder steels are better though.
I have never done any real tests on plane irons, but I prefer a harder steel. The hard steel takes more time to sharpen, but they hold the edge a lot longer than the softer, easy to sharpen steels, those simply don't hold an edge very well. I spend almost as much time sharpening them as I do using them.
I have a couple dozen planes, a few spokeshaves, and some draw knives (most of them older than I am), and in my experience, the harder it it to sharpen, means I can often go a year more before needing to sharpen it again. Softer, easy to sharpen irons on the other hand means having to sharpen them every week, or at best monthly.
have a belt knife that I made from an old plane iron, it's sharp enough to dry shave with, but in the 40 years since I made it, the only sharpening its seen was to stop it over my leather belt once in a while.
Thanks. Up until about 40 or 50 years ago harder is more durable used to be pretty true. Up until a point. If it gets too hard it's in the edge becomes brittle and it shatters as opposed to roles. But in the last 30-40 years with some of these new steals coming out it no longer holds true. If you look on the far right side of the spreadsheet I have a correlation chart between hardness and different aspects and the only one it really is close to is hardness and sharpen ability.
Wow... That's pretty impressive indeed, James!!!
Fantastic testing! Thanks!!! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Love great advances in technology. The future always hold promise.
The magnacut is stainless. I read a test on high carbon knives vs stainless that demonstrated that when left in mildly imperfect environments (humid or whatever) for a month or so, the carbon steel would lose some keeness due to edge corrosion. Would love to see you test this.
I hesitate to market them as 'stainless' because there's a popular misconception that carbon steels automatically have better performance than stainless and since it's a stainless steel, it must be inferior. Do you have a link to that test?
I heard that but I haven't seen any practical testing on it. On top of that if it did it would only be at the tiniest atomic level. And at that level it really doesn't make any difference at all to the usability of the edge.
I switched over to Lake Erie plane blades and enjoy their stay-sharp performance. I also signed up early for their powder metal marking knife which I also like. However, when the production version came out I was surprised to see that they had swtiched to a different steel alloy. According to Lake Erie the new production steel is the best steel for a marking knife. But the new steel is about a third as costly as the original Lake Erie powder steel in my prototype. I am left wondering which is truly the best marking knife steel, irrespetive of price? Can you consider a future marking knife test, not necessarily restricted to these two choices? Your dedicated viewer, Marvin McConoughey
WoW this video really had me on the edge 😂
I look forward to the gorgeous wood plane you’ll make for that iron. Rosewood sole, yes. What for the body?
Those jokes weren't quite cutting edge, more like trying my 'temper'. Yet I remain elastic, hard enough, and strong while not being brittle. Oh, the materials science of it all!
I've actually been experimenting with some of the old "junk" plane irons I have and comparing them to the Defiance line. I've got several Defiance irons that I have sharpened up and put through some brutal tests on my own and a couple of them out performed the mainline Stanley irons... I just did it for comparison for myself but it is still interesting.
James, I'm surprised that no one has seemed to make plane irons out of beskar. It seems like it would be an optimal steel, certainly for edge retention. Maybe too hard to sharpen? Might be a business opportunity if you can secure a batch...
Ok, so the major take-away I got is that the best iron for my planer is the Lake Erie Steal at $80, stay away from Harbor Freight (I believe blacksmiths have the same opinion about their anvils), and that a cheaper iron just means you sharpen more often...
As a novice, I am thinking that, while a bit more work, a cheaper iron would expose me to more experience seeing the changes and working the whetstone, leading to a better skillset for when I "Git Gud" as the kids say... so what cheap iron would you recommend?
If only I could afford it's metal! LOL. Looks cool though. Great share as always James.
Try the magna cut on a shooting plane, this really changes the game. End grain comes off like butter.
Where did you acquire the skills you applied to comparing those blades? And thanks for doing it.
A life time of being skeptical. LOL that and a masters in theater technology. basically engineering for Theater.
Hello, have you tried re-sharpening the Lake Erie tools with Japanese water stone? Would it be possible to do it in a reasonable time?
I have not. From what I have heard it takes a bit longer then A2.
Do the Zen Wu blades fit into a Stanley plane easily?
They can with a little modification. Sometimes you usually have to file the mouth out a little bit more for them to fit.
Regarding the Zen-Wu. Is it a concern that the iron/chipbreaker is so much thicker that they might not fit into old Bailey and Bedrock planes?
No. It only has to be thin up at the nose. The only other problem is that the screw might not be long enough to hold the lever cap but in all of them that I tried that's not a problem.
I pre-ordered five Lake Erie blades when Nick first announced the line. There were ups and downs in the manufacture but they did arrive and I am pleased. The blade finish is really good. I use diamond plates for flattening backs which show any flaws. The Lake Erie backs are really flat on delivery. For me that saves the most sharpening time. Putting on a secondary bevel takes a couple of minutes. The back prep by Lake Erie puts me way ahead on initial sharpening over Lie Nielsen or Veritas.
One of my new plane blades will go in a Lie Nielsen shooting plane. I have found the A2 blade supplied with it chips when trimming hard end grain like oak. Lie Nielsen might should consider offering these blades in their shooting plane.
Those Zen-wu steels sure look neat, but the thick Lake Erie has a (marginally) higher score at half the price. What do the Zen-Wu steels bring to the table to justify the price? Not challenging you, just interested to see what they do.
The marginally better numbers are well within the variability of the test. All four of those are almost identical. The big reason why the Zen-Wu irons cost so much is the amount of time put into all of the details and fitting. They took all of the marks for functionality flatness and usability but then go farther into the fit and finish. There's a lot of people who will pay a significant premium for something that will do the job and looks incredibly beautiful. Just check out Sour and Steiner.
I think you should cheek your price points.... The Zen-Wu blades with chip breakers are cheaper than the listed prices..... Which make them the outstanding choice.
that is the price on the ones I used they have several versions of both.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo your internet pointer is for the steel backed laminated blade. The titanium one is twice the price, as you point out. The differences in the edge should be non existant as the steel or titanium back should not make any difference in the edge
Would you please check by matching pictures to be sure you have the titanium. I think the two versions look different?
they are both the titanium back with the V2 iron. I will have to check the link. thanks for letting me know.
I ordered a 2 inch Zen Wu blade ( the steel one, which is cheaper) in August, it was shipped promptly. It is now October (7 weeks later) and my blade is not yet arrived. It seems to be stuck in shipping. If you order for yourself, be prepared for a long wait.
I will update this information when I receive the blade.
What a sharp anayksis
Knifesteelnerds really has made a winning steel with his development of Magnacut.
Maybe its too early for you to even know, but how do these irons perform when they start to get dull? A2 and O1 seem to behave a little differently and I have heard that PMV-11 behaves a bit more like O1 as it gets dull.
the grain size is so small they micro fracture. not enough that you can see but they just do not bight as well. the edges do not roll like O1. and they don't get streaking chips like A2
I hope you get to make that plane for the Zen Wu iron. Wooden planes are bar none my favorite users and its a bit sad that you see a lot of people make them, but then just having them as decoration, I wonder if you start using the one you make!
Any chance for an ASMR of just like 8 hours of planing noise? I guess I sleep best when I feel like other people around me are working.
I might have to do that.
good idea
Another Amazing Video! Thank you. 🇦🇺👴🏻
How did you manage to fit the Zen Wu iron into your Stanley? Did you modify the throat? I just bought the Zen Wu iron and it won’t fit in my Stanley. I can’t spend another few hundred bucks on something like a Lie Nielsen to find out. It serves as a paper weight now. What a waste.
Yes you have to modify the throat for that one. Most large irons on a Stanley have to modify the throat. But this one is big enough that even on a Lie Nielsen you would have to open the thread up a bit
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Good to know. I might have to modify my only Stanley smoother for this iron. I hope it's really as great as it's advertised so it can stay permanent it that plane. Thanks!
According to Zenwu, their thick titanium body is meant do absorb vibrations, did you by any chance to give that a test?
I haven't come up with a good way to measure vibration. But in my experience even the cheapest thin iron can remove vibration by sharpening it and making sure there's a good fit between it and the frog and the frog in the body.
Yeah, that makes sense, vibrations will be tricky to measure. But since that's one of the big claim they had, I am just really curious. @@WoodByWrightHowTo
I litterally have one plane iron. From a 13 inch not sure what name brand even folded steal frog plane..and it was so pitted i had ro grind it down to nothing. But i use it every day.
question, if you were to buy 1 of them, the Lake erie or the zen wu?
That depends. Functionally they're both about identical. In that case the lake Erie wins out because it's cheaper. But the ZenWu is just so pretty. Makes me happy. And to some people that extra decoration is worth the money.
And on top of all that, Magnacut is also a stainless steel.
Now to save some change for a high dollar plane iron or 3.
Since you've discovered the Zen Wu plane irons, have you thought of adding the Zen Wu chisels to your chisel spreadsheet. Their two lines look very interesting, one is affordable, the other, well...
That is coming up.
Ooooh, very fancy.
Comment down below :), thanks James
The question now is... are they (@LakeErietoolworks) gonna make replacement irons for your Veritas Custom #4? 🤔😉
I have a couple in stock
This has been really interesting to watch. When I first started using a handplane, and restoring them, I did try thick irons, but they often would not work with the mouth of the old plane I was restoring. The common "solution" was a file, and widening the mouth. Then after a time I encountered adjusting the location of the chip breaker, since then traditional thickness has worked perfectly. I am seriously considering trying the Lake Erie.
Hi. Do mind if I ask you to elaborate on the position of the chip breaker. I’m not having good success with my thicker iron.. how far back can you adjust the frog without having the iron hit the bottom of the plane?
@@alfredobanuelos4730 I keep my chip breaker very close to the edge of the iron. That limits tearout in all but really cross-grained wood. I usually run the plane with the chipbreaker between around 1/32 to 1/16 inch from the edge. I run the frog's slope right at the top of the trailing bevel in the mouth of the plane most of the time. WIth cranky, cross grained wood, I'll push the frog forward closer to the mouth more. If that, with a sharp blade doesn't help, time for a card scraper.
The breaker has to be matched to the blade surface with no gap at all in the front. Even a little, and you will begin to find bits of shavings trapped between the breaker and the blade surface. I've had trouble chatter just once. That was caused by a twisted blade. I kept trying to straighten and flatten the edge of the chip breaker, and it did precisely nothing to stop the chatter. I finally replaced the blade and the gap I could see between the edge of the chip breaker and blade disappeared, and so did the chatter.
I'm impressed, and depressed. Using only wooden planes, I don't want to drop $150 on purdy, fancy Zen-Wu blade. I wish you could have tested the Red Rose Reproduction tapered plane iron. They are cryo treated O-1 (Rc 60-62) steel. Perhaps if I buy one, I can send it to you if you want to test it.
I have tested other cryo steels so they will be in that ballpark.
Are your sheets twin, full, queen, or king?
Fantastic!!
Your testing is very interesting and well thought out. Most of my planes are Lie-Nielsen with a few Veritas mixed in. Personally I don’t see a reason to buy new irons. Are the new steels better, probably. But the irons I have are doing what I need and expect them to do.
That being said. When it comes time to replace them, is when I will visit these videos again. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I don’t view what I have as broken.
The Lake Erie irons look great but those Zen Wu ('WOOHOO') irons are just plain gorgeous. They make me think along the lines of Bridge City designs. I'd go as far as to say that even if you don't own a plane, you need one of those in your life, just for bling - wear it with pride on a chunky chain or glue one in place of your car badge...!
Seriously though (and I know this will sound controversial), the thick Lake Erie iron would transform a brand new Stanley #4, which has a mouth as wide as a farm gate (a flock of sheep would pass through it); fettle the body for a couple of hours, add in proper wooden handles, fat Lake Erie iron and away to go. Simples!
Aaaa I want to get one of those ZenWu irons and make a nice Chinese style body for it with the oxhorn style of handle
Oh wow, 180 for the wood body iron version. Maybe in the future lol
Comment down below!
In case you were wondering, this is a comment down below.