PLA Light As Foam CHALLENGE - Foam vs PLA vs LW-PLA
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ธ.ค. 2020
- Watch as compare different 3D printing material agains a 60in foam wing. My goal was to be within 50 grams of the entire RTF foam wing. Using ColorFabb LW-PLA I made a ready to fly LW-PLA wing that was 40 grams over. Challenge complete. I test flew all three of these wings also check it out. Thank you for watching.
Thank you so much for watching!
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ColorFabb LW-PLA: colorfabb.com/lw-pla-natural
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The best thing about this video is the uploading with its original form, even there is landing and take-off failure. Thank you for good content.
Thank you I appreciate that.
Thanks, i would LOVE for a Plane/Wing design tutorial :)
Excellent information, thank you! I am so envious of your flying field, the ability to take off or land in almost any direction is really nice. A LONG time ago we (local RC fliers) used to fly off a closed runway at the airport. The airport was originally a Naval Air Station during WW2 and had long, wide (150 ft) runways, we were over a half mile from the active runway and the pattern was on the opposite side, and we had written permission from the airport manager to fly there. With 150 ft minimum you had almost unlimited directional choices, we all loved flying there, but things change and that is long gone, man I would love to have a field like yours! 😎
It would be neat to see an inner wing panel from each tested destructively to determine its strength relative to weight.
and price comparison... LW-PLA aint exactly cheap, not foam board cheap...
@@timm1065 LW-PLA isn't cheap, but it looks a lot worse than it really is. Since you only print at ~50-55% flow, you can build twice as much with 1kg of LW-PLA as you can with 1kg of regular PLA. I'm currently printing the Eclipson Model C, which should come it at around 240g of printed material in LW-PLA, where the regular PLA version comes in at 470grams...
Depends where you live, foamboard here where I live is expensive and heavy. LW-PLA is a much better option.
You can find a lot of the properties of different materials on eSuns website. The two parameters important are the density and the yield stress (they only quote tensile and flexural strength, but they are close enough for ballpark figures).
The tensile strength of PLA-LW is approximately 32MPa. For regular PLA we are looking at approximately 72MPa. The density on the roll for PLA-LW is the same as regular PLA at 1.2 g/cm^2. However when foamed it drops to about 0.54 g/cm^3.
Technically the yield strength is already independent on density, and thus we can pretty much say that PLA-LW has about half the yield strength. But that doesn't tell the whole story. This assumes a constant stress (i.e. force per area), which is often not really the case. Usually the force is the same, and because of foaming PLA-LW has a lower density (and thus higher volume) meaning larger surface area for same applied force.
If we print at approximately half the density, we would need to print twice the volume for the same weight. However, assuming a cube shape, this would only mean an approximately 1.6x increase in surface area over which the load is spread. So if we have the same force applied to the structure, because of the 1.6 increase in area, it experiences a 1/1.6x decrease in stress.
So for example if a PLA wing breaks at 10N applied at a point, a PLA-LW wing at 100% density would break at approximately 4.44N. However if foamed to about 50% it would be able to bear about 7.11N of load. As you can see just foaming the material helps, even at the same weight, because of the increase in surface area. Again! Note that this doesn't mean that foamed PLA-LW is stronger!!
It should also be noted that this is with 'slow' static loading. Actual real life loads are very different. I presume that the largest load of a model plane is at impact with the ground which can often cause rapid uncontrolled disassembly of your aircraft. For these kinds of shock loads its not just yield strength that matters, but also the elasticity of the material. To measure impact strength there is an impact strength test (IZOD), which is also a measure per unit area. This is 8.58 and 5.4 kJ/m^2 for ePLA-LW and PLA respectively.
This shows that for impacts, PLA-LW is probably much better than regular PLA (~160% of regular PLA), even at 100% density! At half the density (and thus 1.6x the surface area), assuming a similar force impact, foamed PLA-LW is likely 250% better than regular PLA.
tl;dr I suspect that foamed PLA-LW is about 70-80% of the structural strength/weight ratio of regular PLA. Foamed PLA-LW likely ~250% of the impact strength/weight ratio of regular PLA though, which is likely much more important.
@@tHaH4x0r Amazing response. Engineer?
can you make wing design video tutorial
Great video! Thanks for testing and sharing.
Thanx. Have been waiting for such comparison )
Really interesting. Thank you.
BRAVOoooo, BEAWOoooo!!! THANKS!!!
Looks like the perfect place to fly.
I am now committing to watching everyone of your videos. Just starting into the hobby and tuning printer for these single wall prints (challange). Love learning from your videos. Thank you and keep up the stellar work.
Thank you for showing us the flight performance with these weight differences, it really interests me because I intend to make whole models in the near future or at least parts of them with this LW PLA, unfortunately we don't have that here in Brazil yet.
Really nice job!
Awesome experiment! 🎉
I clicked 'like' on this one within the first minute. I am so glad to see people exploring LW-PLA filament. I have been using it successfully for small 3D-printed rubber-powered free flight airplanes.
Thank you, I have been interested in trying to build some small micro indoor rc planes with this material. It really is awesome stuff it is so light. Cheers
A nice comparison, but one version was missing: Balsa wood, covered with oracover (or something like that). That's the version I'm using for my current build (Roland D VI a, 1/6th scale, fully equipped with HD FPV). I already have the Oratex covering with the lozenge pattern laying here. In a previous build, I tried covering 3D printed parts with the heat-shrink and it rarely works. The parts are getting soft when you try to pull the cover around the curves.
To be on the safe side, I'll go with balsa ribs and a carbon spars for the wings. For the fuselage, I already changed the formers from plywood to PLA, LW in the back, normal in front of the CG. I'm pretty excited to get that ready and flying 🙃
Already having plans in my head for the next project, purely made from LW-PLA...
Wow that sounds like quite the project. Yes I agree it would have been nice to have some type of balsa wing for this project also. I think the best configuration would be with some sort of hybrid between LW-PLA and a carbon fiber spar of with a PLA spar. I look forward to hearing about your future builds.
Nice test ;) thank you
Thank you
Hell done Troy I really like your testing not just talking
SuperB! Молодец, всё по делу, ничего лишнего.
great video, especially like the gangster movie scene style at 3:12
hahah Thank you
Great video, It looks like a great trainer plane. Do you have the stl for the wing? I may try to build one with the LW-PLA. Thanks!
nice nice NICE NICE NICE, will try out lw pla
heck ya LW-PLA is awesome
Harika bir video, teşekkürler.
You should make a balsa wing too. I think it is going to be a little over 200g...
Yep. And stronger. Also try carbon fiber. Lighter and stronger still.
yes but balsa, carbon, or foam also.. all require more time to make than just print the wing while you sleep, so that is also one thing to take into account
Bro que buen video amigo exelente.
Thank you
My main issue with LW PLA is that it's only good in white. Once you spray it anything darker like gray it just warps so easily in the sun. Similar to regular PLA but even worse. Once it warps it stays that way too. Have you experienced this issue too?
Something interesting to consider is your construction of the wing. Because interfaces are included in the printed wings there is extra material. If you could print the lw pla as a single piece i wonder how much closer it would be to the foam. I wonder if the printed wings could be made even lighter by sparser support, and how it would stack up to the structural integrity of foam. Also, very impressive that no spar was needed.
You can make the LW-PLA wing even lighter... you are missing holes on its inside frame, plus the design of the interior could be optimized for weight saving. But yes, while normal PLA made 3d printed airplanes not a true competitor to foam, now, with the LW-PLA, we have a match! The only true competitor, in terms of weight/resistence, is the traditional balsa and oracover technoloty... Those can still be more resistent. On the other hand, LW-PLA plus 10g fiberglass, you can go to bigger wings... if you even add carbon fiber tube inside... But the only reason to use a 3d printer for this is if you want to use a lot of curves and a strange wing shape... in that case, then we have a winner!
I did not add any holes in the inner structure so that I could print the LW-PLA without stringing, I print these in vase mode so there is no retraction.
@@TroyMcMillan Stringging is more of a "cosmetic" issue than a resistence issue... I do have the stringging inside, which doesn't make a difference, and saved a lot of weight, without loosing much resistence... Besides, after tuning it, I almost have no stringging... The weight saving is worth it. Check the airplanes from 3d labprints, theirs are optimized for printing and low weight. Have a couple printed in regular PLA, and I can't wait to have the time to print one of them in LW-PLA! It should have a big boost in performance
Please do a build video for LW PLA and a stress test! Amazing content man
What printing parameters do you use to eliminate the stringing on the standard PLA?
In one of your other videos you showed how much more fragile lw-pla is than pla. How do you feel about it for day to day use?
Your hair is on point.
Great video! Perhaps I missed it, but what kind of foam is used in the comparison wing? Foam board? blue foam? Edit: found it in your link - Kraft Paper laminated foam (Depron?) board .18" thick, so must be a built up wing. I imagine the LW-PLA might be lighter than a solid EPP foam wing.
Great Flight Troy totally enjoyed it that PLA wing wow take care
Thank you Robert I appreciate it take care
@@TroyMcMillan th-cam.com/video/l4JqDHwgdzow/w-d-xo.htmlould be a great project for in the future Troy would get lots of traction view wise
I am just finishing up on fuselage
@@MrZeek101 Nice, The Fuselage takes the most work.
@@MrZeek101 Ya that is a good idea. Thank you for the tip for a video. I don't have FPV equipment and have never tried it out. May have to get one.
Hey, do you have a video of how you made this rubber wheels system?
How does the external suface finish compare between PLA and LW PLA?
How would a balsa wing with shrink wrap film compare for weight?
any chance we could get a look at you LW-pla slicer settings
Troy, my dude, what an epic Christmas present! A question about the TPU hinges - with your experience with them, do you think they'll hold up over the long term? After being cycled many times, I'm hesitant to trust 'em. I've been using Blenderm tape along with TPU hinges, because old fuddy-duddies like me resist new and shiny. Merry Christmas, I look forward to your 2021 projects!
Thank you, I have only been using TPU hinges since the Bobber build so I have not used them for a long enough time to say. I have not had any problems with them yet. Merry Christmas
ok, some materials weigh less, but seems to me that for this to be a useful comparison, the wings should have the same strength. Otherwise, you can just reduce weight by making thinner walls, or less internal structure. I guess this is good if the thickness of your walls is already the minimum that your 3D printer can produce.
According to CNC kitchen, strength decreases more rapidly than weight when this material when you increase the foaming.
I think it's a given that PLA would be heavier with the general weight tradeoffs that go along with that, but what about strength? It would be great to see how each of these hold up to destructive load weight testing. Just out them on a stand upside down and start adding weight evenly across the wings. How much stronger is PLA over LW-PLA? How does LW-PLA compare to foam strength?
Ya I have had a few people recommend this. PLA is definitely stronger that LW-PLA. I may try something like this in the future.
How is the strength of the LW PLA compared to normal PLA?
Being that I do a LOT of 3d Printing, about 2 kilos a month, I'd have never thought PLA our LWPLA would have held together. If I decide to get into RC plans, I'll definitely use LWPLA to print them.
Thanks for posting your video's they are really enjoyable.
Thank you for the comment, 2K a month is a lot of printing!! Cheers
@@TroyMcMillan I know, I need to get as better hobby, right after I print.....
How much degress did you print the LW PLA
Can you try to make one wing with PLA ribs and cardboard. I think it's possible to do a simple pla rib to mount easyly cardboard as a skin. Maybe 3 ribs per side with CF rod for reinforcement. Good video!
Where can i get the plans for the wing. Im building a ft legacy and i want to try a pla wing. Thanks
Wich splicer did u use?
I have a huge problem with the structure of the inside. I have the ultimaker splicer and i dont know where is the problem, why it dont want to export the inlets
Very nice video! How did you manage to print lw-pla without stringing?
I design the wing so the extruder never retracts. I printed all these parts in vase mode in Cura.
can you make a 3d printed plane as strong as a balsa plane? I fly in a very windy area and even after a perfect landing I've had the wind grab it and cartwheel it down the runway. the balsa planes don't care and I've never had any damage. how do the printed planes stand up and can they be reinforced to handle the abuse?
Gr8 video. I more time interested 8n price difference between the three
Nozzle temp for the LWPLA print?
Which CAD do you use?
i liked the PLA best, heavy and realistic
Which CAD program you use to draw up your wings?
Fusion 360
were those tires printed too?
What’s the name of the 3D cad program you’re using at the beginning?
Looks like Fusion 360
Very cool video! Next time could you do some aerobatics? In order see which material can sustain it the best.
Yes i may do some more testing to test the strength a bit more. This video was just to show the wight difference mainly.
are you use any support for the middle part of the wing, when I'm designing and print it unable to print without support, also to remove support takes lots of time and some support inside the wing are unable to remove
I don't print with any support. There is just a wing structure I designed in the middle of the wing. I don't use any. spar.
My concern with the LW PLA is stress test, that overtime or with a more agressive flight the wing will just snap out
I would bet that it's a tad bit stronger than foam. So you worry on LWPLA but not foam? If it snaps out, so would foam.
@@giannismentz3570 the materials have very different breaking characteristics. It's not about raw strength
@@lu4414 Yeah, you're probably right on this, it's not just about strength, and they might have different properties. And sometimes, way too much rigidity over what you want might not be a good thing I suppose. I'm new to this.
Another great video Troy! So where's and good place to source lw-pla?
Only place I can find it is on ColorFabb website.
@@Pics2FlicksDennis okay thank you!
Hi
Can you tell me please what I am doing wrong?
I got files from thingerverse of a wing part and put it to cura and scaled it as it was a bit too big and put preview and it was not printing the outside skin only the inside when I reset scale it was printing everything.
Is this your first build ( on youtube) with LW-PLA? All your other build videos were regular PLA, right? How about showing a stress test of the 2 printed wings. Is the LW-pla less brittle or more flexible than regular pla? Thanks to your channel I bought a printer and can't wait to calibrate and start printing when my rolls of this lw-pla arrive 👍👍
I actually built the Eclipson model A that was my first build with LW-PLA. LW-PLA is not as strong as PLA so for some builds it will not work as well. It really depends on the designer that makes the STL files if the plane can be printed in LW-PLA. Eclipson planes use LW-PLA and PlanePrint uses PLA. You can print PlanePrints airplanes out of LW-PLA but it will not work as well because of the way the plane is made. With LW-PLA you can not use as much retraction and can't eliminate stringing so there is a special way Eclipson makes there planes to work with LW-PLA.
...but foam can take a hit ;)
this is true. But there are some really neat looking 3D printed planes!
My I Please Know the Name of this Flight Spot next to the Solar Array? I would love to Fly out there some time.
What airfoil did you use?
Is there any washout?
You dont need washout on a square wing - they are not conductive of tip stalls.
I did not use any washout. This was just a wing I designed out of foam and I copied it for this 3D printed wing.
Can you do a video on the basic drawing techniques you use in designing your own planes. I t looks like you use fusion 360 and Id love to mess around with basic designs.
Have you tried the Polymaker/Polylite Pre-Foamed LW PLA?
some of the best landings are on hidden rc channels
Nice! Quick question. I'm working on a wing design meant to be printed horizontally. This means a few things, the skin is two 0.1 layers thick. The top of the skin is printed flat with the bottom of the wing and then after the print folded over the ribs and glued to the bottom's trailing edge.
Has anyone done this before?
WOW I like this idea I have not seen anyone try this out. I will have to give this a try. Cheers
I think strength test should be next maybe put the wing on stands and add weights until they snap
Thank you for the suggestion I have gotten a lot of people asking me to do this. I will test them some more.
So I’m convinced that LPLA ribs, carbon tube spars and shrink plastic covering like the old balsa / monokote planes are going to be the best regarding durability, weight etc.
I have just started back in the RC stuff after a 37yr detour. I have found the foam builds interesting but definitely heavy and very poor durability as the paper delaminates from the foam. 37yrs ago I flew my old balsa gas planes nearly every weekend for a year or more and the eventual failures were tail sections that fail from the engine vibration.
I’m getting into the 3d printing also but definitely see that mixing old building methods with new tech is going to be far superior than the full wing 3D printing in LPLA. Standard PLA used in key structural elements in the fuselage makes sense, firewall, wing saddle, landing gear and tie in for tail section. But the skin being a shrink wrap again should save considerable weight.
I find all the foam and full LPLA planes I have flown definitely to exhibit porky weight behavior as you slow them down. VS the old Balsa planes definitely had a superior float and weight advantage.
Where is this field?
As a design challenge a few years back, tried to make a glider from PLA.
photos.app.goo.gl/cahLV5VvfdCqwKba7
And just the wings:
photos.app.goo.gl/Hf1ExnGLueYU9M2P7
The wings are simple single-wall prints. It does fly, but of course much heavier than stick-built balsa.
The trick is to use compound curves. Otherwise light skins crumple. Posted to Google+ ... but that is gone.
Nice I like the wing shape
@@TroyMcMillan The shape is functional, not aesthetic. Also not my first try. Simple plates and curves buckle, with thin walls. Adding ribs adds weight, and still tends to buckle. Compound curves are self-supporting, with less material, and yield the lightest solution.
Old knowledge - the auto industry got deep-draw alloys for steel stamping back in the 70s, and were able to reduce cost and weight using stamped (self-stiffening) compound curves.
What about Colorfabb LW-ASA?
Would you share your Fusion files (Not stls) for the wing??
I am not sharing them right now sorry!!
We share at least 3 hobbies. 3D printing, RC flying and mini's.
What type of foam it is sir
That looks a lot like El Mirage dry lake...🤔🤔🤔🤘🏻
I is Mursha Reservoir in Las Vegas
How did u get the strining down
I print this wing in vase mode so there is no retractions.
Can u set the printer to print in vase mode is that something u did in the cad design
LDPE is nice?
Are you in the Palmdale or Santa Clarita area...?
I am in Las Vegas. I fly at Mursha Reservoir dry lake bed.
@@TroyMcMillan Nice It looks very similar to the Santa Clarita Palmdale area I'm at
How's the durability of Light PLA? I hear that regular PLA tends to be brittle.
EDIT: Found your video about this subject ;)
I would like to see a 3d printed J3 1/4 scale
where are you flying at?
Las Vegas Dry Lake Bed
@@TroyMcMillan ok i thought it was here in cali.
Foam is such a hard hit on our environment. I’m glad you advocating a better choice for slaking our hobbyist’s hunger.
Thank you
Can you post the stl's for the wing?
I am not posting the STL files as of now.
@@TroyMcMillan sad, but I understand
How come I do not see anyone printing R/C Airplanes with HIPS? The charts would dictate using it because it is stronger and lighter than LW-PLA . Why do you not use (try) HIPS?
Troy will you be making any Sailplanes? maybe make a F5J Wing for the F5J Carbon fiber Bodies the are on Ebay Seller
boika with airoplay
15' of wings in a cooper???? nice...
Nice work. How does the light weight PLA hold up in the heat? That has been my biggest issue with 3D printed planes. ;)
It resists heat much better than normal Pla, but temperatures below 10 Celsius are dangerous- it gets brittle!
I thought this is veritsum at the first look lol
U r smart intelligent man. Go ahead & finish Aerospace Engineering & do it professionally.
My question to everyone watching this video, Who is going to be the first to build a full scale aircraft with a 3d printer and fly it?
would like to see if 0,3 nozzle and pla would be a good alternative to lw-pla
Anyone tried resin printing wings?
I have not tried printing in resin.
@@TroyMcMillan thanks for the reply. I wonder if you could print super thin wing skin and end up with balsa wing weights.
is there foam petg? pla is gonna melt in the sun
colorfabb is now selling LW-ASA. As far as the LW-PLA goes from my experience with the materia, the natural white LW-PLA seems to be able to hold up to a hot sun, while black LW-PLA will warp like a vinyl record in the backseat of a car on a hot day.
@@wfpelletier4348 Yes this is correct I have not tried the LW-ASA I have had experiences with printing PETG and it warps badly on the print bed. ASA has a tendency to warp also. I have not had any problems with Natural LW-PLA melting in the sun.
I doubt a grey PLA wing can suffer the sun ray in a desert .
Come summer time PLA and LW-PLA are going to suffer warping no matter the color. Looked like he was already getting some.
I like your pioneering spirit of the PLA wing. My thought is that if you optimized the wing for PLA it could be reduced to 400 grams because the wing ribs can be spaced further apart because the PLA is stronger and if you used PLA+ the wing would be stronger than regular PLA. This can be done with fusion 360 CAD program laying out a wider pattern of ribs on a Clark Y airfoil and PLA+.
Give it a try using Tim Stanton's video (th-cam.com/video/QJjhMan6T_E/w-d-xo.html).
Fantastic 😍💋 💝💖♥️❤️
Thank you