Sample Brass Comparison with Ren's Theme
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.พ. 2018
- A video comparison of three different brass sample libraries featuring a section of music by John Williams from Star Wars 7 The Force Awakens "Ren's Theme".
Spitfire Audio - Symphonic Brass
www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a-...
Orchestral Tools - Berlin Brass
www.orchestraltools.com/librar...
Cinesamples - CineBrass CORE & PRO
cinesamples.com/product/cineb...
Performance Samples - Caspian Brass
performancesamples.com/caspian/
Slate Digital - VerbSuite Classics (with Bricasti presets)
slatedigital.com/verbsuite-cla...
Film Composer Corner | FCC-09 - เพลง
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2:05 Caspian Brass
3:40 Cinebrass
6:10 Berlin Brass
7:44 Spitfire Brass
Thank you!
2:03
3:38
6:09
7:43
The screen shows different libraries than @Film Composer Corner mentions ... the screen shows Performance Samples Caspian as #4 (not Spitfire) and Cinebrass as #2 (not Berlin). Of course it's edited together so it could have been to "trick" us.
2:03 Caspian
3:38 Spitfire Symphonic Brass
6:09 Orchestral Tools Berlin Brass
7:43 Cinesamples Cinebrass
berlin brass sounded best to me
Thanks Scott. Fun to see your setup. I own 3 of these libraries and was still surprised.
Amazing video and composer!! Congrats!
wow, really interesting approach, thank you for demo!
Thanks for making this! Very helpful.
Great work. Thanks for sharing!
Great comparison!
Great video!
Great video my friend!! I totally just came across your video/channel by accident haha great stuff! 😄
No.2 CineBrass is so unreal... meaning REAL! No EQ or other processing... just straight outta the box? Holy poop, man! 🙈
well certainly their new trumpets would be good to try out on this same clip.
They're running a sale for 239 right now, go pick it up!
I thought I was the only one who thinks CineBrass is overrated
@@DBZilla-mi9xe Read again
In my head I went for 2 and 4, lucky as I own them both ;). What you say is so true - I've been caught out several times purchasing a library based on the composition put together by the software developer, only to find it near impossible to achieve a similar sound to their demo. Great comparison video!
OMG.... sounds so freaking real 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
This is really great, thanks for making this! Do you have any plans on making similar videos with other instrument families? Strings, winds, percussion, etc?
nope. I do not. At least on this channel. All new videos are on Scott Glasgow Music.
Nice comparison! I've been checking out brass reviews today, and you're not the first that noted Cinesamples' requirement of the sustain pedal to trigger sustains. But there are a few controller maps they offer in the plugins to choose from -- along with baking your own -- including key, velocity and mod wheel switching, if the sustain pedal approach isn't desired.
Out of all these, the one that impressed me the most was Spitfire. Their trumpet marcatos don't have that overwhelming fatness to them. They bite through when playing chords which I find difficult with most other Brass libraries. I own Cinebrass, Hollywood Brass and Caspian and I'm just not happy with any of the trumpets.
I have Spitfire but likes the Berlin sample set best because the ostinato repetition wasn’t clipped
Your method is awesome. Not letting us know which library is which forced me to just listen first. Thanks!
Very nice video! Confirms my faith in Cinesamples Brass and Albion One Brass, and a few others I use as well.
I don't use ALBION ONE any more but I did for years. Now using METROPOLIS for my "sketch" orch when needed.
Second one. Cinebrass rocks. It's the only one that sounded even close to real. In fairness to the others, brass is really freakin' hard to emulate.
Great video - must say performance sample did for me - great transitions between notes which is the hardest to get right, in my opinion. Btw, what studio desk are you using? any particular place you bought that?
- Fred
Custom. Robert Beijer. facebook.com/BeijerWorkstations/
Not seeing this video, I thought that Berlin Brass was not that good according to the other videos, but when I compare all four, I like Berlin Brass the most.
That was my rating
1 : 4 / 10
2 : 8 / 10
3 : 6 / 10
4 : 7 : 10
So i guess i rated Cinebrass the highest. I think its really a solid library.
Yeah good brass from Cinesamples (possibly their best library)
Thanks for this; great video! Could you share what strings/perc you used?
3, 4, 1,2. Berlin is just huge.
You highlighted a major drawback of most libraries out there: they cannot do repeated notes, which is beyond my understanding given how common they are music. You end up with that sucking effect which screams 'fake'.
Yes you are right, but lets be honest this isnt the best possible arrangement of that piece.
You can do repeated notes, spitfire symphonic brass has repeated notes and enough round robins to let it sounds real.
I liked cinesamples and then spitfire. I am heart broken because I love spitfire, but there was something brassier in cinesamples.
Nice video! By the way, what app are you using on the iPad to do the Keyswitching? Thanks!
Liine Lemur. I programmed it myself. There is others like MetaGrid which has some pre-programming.
You can change the switches for articulations in Cinebrass, I use keyswitches. I liked all but #1, the short notes at low dynamics sound not very real.
Yeah I know. I have an ipad that I use to switch Cinebrass articulations using midi cc09 messages instead of "playing" them in using sustain ped.
1 and 2 were my favourite i think the transition between low to high was more fluid and natural sounding, but I also think I just preferred the tonal qualities of them, to be honest though they all sounded great!
There is a point here, that is use the tools you own because they all sound believable. Do not try to BUY them all. At that point you become a "sample collector" instead of working enough to actually merit owning it all.
I agree with that, you should practice making music with what you have to hand rather than thinking you just need to buy more and more, I've been practicing using some home made libraries and that's been a lot of fun, however I think if you have it the money to spare and it's just what you like spending on, go ham!
Sample libraries have massively improved over the years, to the points where you can't tell which is live and which is midi programmed, Cinematic Studio Strings is honestly uncanny in its realism, and Spitfire's symphonic woodwind sound quite real as well. But I think the one which'll take a lot longer is Brass, half of that has to do with the attack, it doesn't have the subtlety and warmth that live brass players have and just sounds like a repetitive fart, no matter how acclaimed or expensive that library is. I guess that we'll just have to wait for that one brass library that gets it right to come.
" to the points where you can't tell which is live and which is midi programmed" absolutely not. LIVE is a huge difference. No midi orchestra compares or comes close in 2018. Go hear more live orchestra music. It will change your life.
When I was in school I spent every day in the orchestra rehearsals of my conservatory (that is where I learned).
Film Composer Corner I do listen to a considerable amount of orchestral music. There hasn't been any orchestra libraries like Albion One which come close to sounding like a live orchestra. But libraries for sections, like Cinematic Studio Strings sound incredibly real in my opinion.
Listening to orchestral albums or live concerts? There is a big difference and effects how you hear orchestra. CSS is fine. I use primarily Spitfire and Cinesamples but they are all tools. No way samples can replace live, not a chance
Film Composer Corner oh sorry I thought you were talking about how Sample libraries couldn't hold candles to orchestral albums, because honestly there aren't many experiences that can out do a live orchestra, especially not midi. I haven't had many opportunities to see one but I've seized every chance, I went to see one in Bristol last year and a few months back I went to see Psycho with a live orchestra too, they were fantastic.
When you talk in the video there's a low rumble sound. Use a High pass filter around 90Hz next time. It will help to clear air condition and cars sounds.
yeah cars around me. Well to be honest, this is a gopro hero 4 right into FCPX so I don't really do much with editing or adding high pass filters to vo. At least not yet, someday might have a better camera and more time to tweak these videos.
Interesting Comparison. Hm - even it is quite old already I think for this special job Cinebrass nailes it best - it just works very well for that John Williams style. Cool! It is stil one of my go-to brass libraries. In fact I stil use a combination of Hollywood Brass Diamond, Cinebrass Complete, Samplemodeling Brass and 8Dio Cage and am stil VERY happy with the results. The only thing that I always found very cool that I dont own yet are the Bones from Caspian. Really curious to see the new Audiobro Modern Brass library soon. The concept looks interesting ;)
Chris Schlee cinebrass still have an awesome sound - as you said - perfect for the JW style. I
Hi. Thanks for the Video. What is the ipad App you use for the Keyswitches? Is it a App that works universal or is it made for Cubase?
Liine Lemur that I custom programmed to trigger midi articulation switches using cc09 (not key switches). It's not a Cubase thing or any DAW. It is just sending program change messages (I use UACC for SPITFIRE for instance)
Thank you.
Ok, I go for Orchestral Tools Berlin Brass. This is...wow.
Performance Samples sounded best to me.
Thanks for doing this! Very helpful. Beforehand I was expecting to like Cinebrass the most (that's what I have), and when I started listening to example #1 I immediately (thought I) recognized Cinebrass and thought "oh yeah, that's how it should sound!" 😀 Because it sounded realistic. But then of course it wasn't Cinebrass! For me, the best library was Caspian. Berlin Brass was mostly ok. Cinebrass and Spitfire I didn't really like. Btw. you can see the name of each library used in the project timeline bar.
yeah i know the names are there also someone added timeline chapters below in comments
I use bbcso orch with cinebrass. I changed the mapping so pedal down is short notes.
I know the pedal programming idea.. it is good but not practice in a real world situation for me. As a film composer I need to work with other people who also work with other people, which means my work flow changes to what the other people are doing to streamline workflow. Pedal is NOT it even if it is cool.
I don't anything about how these things are supposed to sound but I think 3 had interesting accents that stuck out which I liked.
hi great video, thx.... what exactly do you do with the ipad? the left one! which app is that? cheers
Liine Lemur. I have 3 ipads.
Left - midi articulation switching (instead of keyswitching)
Middle - key commands for Cubase
Right - monitoring control for audio outs (mains, mix, dialog, temp, other and click levels).
@@FilmComposerCorner Thank you for your answer. By the way, john williams has used the KyloRen theme before in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. (Amazon Prime 1:40:50) have watched it today and I noticed immediately... pretty cool
Cinesamples is just the obvious choice. Same room as the actual score.
Wow all of them sound great! But i think that the spitfire one sounds the most... star wars ish?
Superb comparison thank you.
Thanks! It is probably time to revist this session using the new Spitfire BBC and Abbey One orch libraries. Things are constantly changing.
@@FilmComposerCorner id love to hear a remake with the BBCSO
What touch screens do you use and how are they integrated?
All Apple iPads. There is a whole video dedicated to touch screens here: th-cam.com/video/bZsEkX4LZVg/w-d-xo.html
The differences are very slighty. First time I like 1 and 3, then 4, then 2. There is too much talking between comparisions. For better checking I need probably have this as .wav files. Also YT compression is not helping at all. I was going to buy Cinebrass, but after this movie I'll skip that and wait for Ark 4 which is around corner and I'll wait for discounts. But this kind of movies are really helping not to put too much money for another "better/best" library because they have nice demo. Almost every orchestra libraries are the same (I was looking same comparision with strings). At the end good music wins :)
At the end good music does win. The uncompressed wav files and the cubase session is available for download for my Patreon supporters (www.patreon.com/scottglasgowmusic)
What library are the strings in the opening from?
sounds like spitfire. most likely sss
Which Bricasti presets in the Verbsuite are you using for this ?
Boston Hall A at 1.8ms decay. Very standard setting for orchestral instruments and samples
@@FilmComposerCorner thank you sir , God Bless
Аre they in the same order as they are in the discription? If so, my favoutite is No. 2
yes correct order
@@FilmComposerCorner I love Berlin Brass. That's why I have it :)
Where can I get the sheet music for this score?
Well I think Hal Lenard put out the suite. Other then that, all I can say is that the complete score is out there on the net. Just have to do some smart searching. =)
Have you tried Junkie XL Brass
Yes fun for over the top but so unrealistic to real life. You won't have a budget on a film for 12 horns. Cool thing about the Orch Tool app is you can buy individual patches so I own just the JXL Horns.
For this...2, 4, 3, 1 for me. I was entirely wrong and surprised at what each of them were, so thank you. VERY surprised at CineBrass performing so well here compared to every other example I've heard. I'm thinking Berlin sounded less than it could be during the 'angry' part because it was new to you and as you said were not very comfortable getting sounds from it. Or is Berlin just not able to achieve that sound (the highs when loud)?
Watched some more videos and yeah it seems like Berlin just can't do that with trombones, even with the mod wheel at max. That's unfortunate. Everything else is quite exceptional.
Do you use any of the Vienna Symphonic Libraries?
No. I used to use the Special edition Winds but generally I find all their libraries too dry and played with no emotion. Also can't stand Synchron player. Just sloppy and have to wait too long for loading. Not for me-- sound and ease of use is a fail.
How can you use an iPad for keyswitches?
Liine Lemur programming.. then send midi cc commands (I use cc09) to send to Kontakt instrument through my DAW. Each instrument in Kontakt will need to be programmed to recieve the message. For instance, Spitfire Audio libraries use UACC to give every articulation a number. Program that number and you are good to go. Good luck!
Film Composer Corner oh, I’ve heard of Lemur. Thank you! That’s perfect!
The last one sounds the best to me based on this excerpt. However, I don't like any of the sounds overall, especially after hearing the real cue. I'm sure each cue can be further improved, considering these libraries are actually good.
Well yes this was quick sample programming (which is what happens when working in real world film / tv like I do). There is no time to get deep into programming but indeed with many more hours one could get even more "realistic".
@@FilmComposerCorner I understand. Thanks for highlighting these libraries. I personally really like the Berlin libraries. What are your thoughts on the Hollywood Diamond libraries?
@@alleyway3215 No. I do not like any of the EastWest orchestral libraries at all mostly due to sound but also the very inefficient PLAY engine. It is all just a no on any EastWest library.
What app are you running on your iPad?
Liine Lemur
I know i'm too late to comment this... but... anyway... IMHO talking about the pure sound (not programming or easy of use)... all four libraries have a shining point and a weack point compared to the others. The more "natural" sounding to me is the 1st BUT needs to be "pumped up" a bit to get that "power of the dark side of the force" and "imperial sound" of the others libraries. yah yah a know... the normal way is that one has one or two brass libraries... so let say... 1st for the quietest parts... and the 4th for the big sound.
yeah.. programming nightmare. I stick with 1 library with my work then "produce" as needed. Layering these huge libraries creates such an unnatural sound that we all start getting used to it as time goes on. Sadly.
Why don't you try SampleModeling brass?
I have... just has some realism and some not so much. Sadly it's just not at the level a profession film composer needs yet. Maybe someday there will be a hybrid!
I tried layering them with the samples. The sound is not good. Maybe have to try some sort of panning or something
I think they have a great potential, of course you have to work a lot more than normal sample libraries but they give great satisfaction. I composed something using them and with a good reverb and a good positioning in the panorama I think you could reach great sounds. I agree with you that they need a lot of work, especially for orchestral purposes but I'm confident and I hope they'll do such thing with updates or new instruments. Try to listen to my last tracks, you will hear them in action. I'll post another track soon with those instruments. ;)
Got to disagree with this. Sure, it takes more work initially to get it sounding right, but once it's in the template and sitting well in the mix, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more realistic sounding brass library. Add to that the incredible flexibility that SM have built into the scripting, and you're onto a winner. And for jazz, it really is unparalleled. All that aside, great comparison. I think 2 and 4 are the closest for me.
As for Jazz, I agree. For classical, not so much. Maybe blended.... maybe but I don't have time to layer like that. I need quick great sounding solutions without too much fuss.
Well, technically you have to take some time only when you prepare the instruments. Once you did it you can use them as every other library with the plus of extreme flexibility. But I see your point.
Berlin
What a machine gun effect on all of them. Did you turn off round robin?
Nope. I don't think you can turn off round robin on these samples.... but again no, everything was setup properly. Good luck on your brass sample search.
@@FilmComposerCorner Spitfire libraries do allow you to turn off/on round robin. It is a good idea because some of their robins are out-of-tune.
2 was the best IMHO. For this piece at least. I have personally found Spitfire Brass to be better for the brass stuff I've written but it's a little tame Exocet for the Phalynx brass- those kick.
What is big real for you when you use libraries as mockup or demo?! You're gonna record it by live orchestra anyway.
Not everyone lol. Most lower budget productions are done through VSTs
@@oibruv3889 I know, Alex. But he is talking about using sample libraries for "mockup". It means that he`s gonna record it by a live orchestra later.
@@trevormadsen oh gotcha
this is really just a horn comparison though innit
yeah I guess it needs to have a new title of "horns" instead of "brass"
For this midi-version, I preferred library #1 due to being played (sampled) musically interesting, sounded separated and realistic, although sonically too compressed and not as expressive as some of the others. The one I liked the least was library #2 which sounded blurry and lacked transients - I would have a hard time getting a musical / timed feeling or performance out of these samples. Library #3 was recorded too loud (makes it harder to make a fair judgement) and sounded to me like they needed more takes with the musicians; somewhat musically off and probably recorded by less experienced recording engineers - but still, all in all; not that bad anyway I must ad. #4, the 2nd half sounded quite okay - again, with this midi-version - the first couple of bars though everything sounded sluggish at that low velocity, and to me this library sounds a bit like the samples were not recorded in the same place or with the same room acoustics taking place - made me not want to use this library for this piece at all with all the focus on the brass going on. Thanks for sharing this video.
Please use a decent mic next time. Your comparison was interesting, but holy hell, the noise floor was just enormous.
Just using my GoPro with a Saramonic additional mic. Not sure I plan invest in something more at this point. I do these videos for fun. Sorry the noise floor sucks.
Had to cut off my subwoofer lol
ack that machine gunning.
hollywood orchestra doesn't have that problem due to round robin so. I'm good. :)
All these libraries use round robin samples. sorry-- I disagree, hollywood orchestra is terrible as is the PLAY engine.
@@FilmComposerCorner To each his own :) Play had a bad rap for a long time, and deserverdly so. But since Play 5 loading times are very solid, sometimes even outperforming batch-resaved kontakt in loading speed. I find the sound of Hollywood Strings and Brass hard to argue with, but then I am one of those people who likes to work with a track-per-articulation anyway. For me, I haven't found a string library that's better sounding than HWS. The tone is impeccable. Whereas other devs cut corners by only sampling every whole tone, EW sampled every semi tone. You'll be surprised how few devs do it. You can probably count them on a single hand. I don't think anyone has spent as much on making a string library either: a million dollars went into the production and I think it shows. The players are A-listers, the recording engineer is renowned in the industry... I have absolutely no problem with you choosing to use differnt products, by all means! Use what works for you. But I don't think you can really say that the hollywood orchestra is objectively terrible. Maybe you have had bad experiences with it or maybe it doesn't jive with you. That's all fine but the sound is very hard to argue with and SoyishK has a valid point. Hollywood Brass has retongued samples which would've made the machine gunning on the repeated E's less noticeable.
ANYWAY, I appreciate the video and enjoyed watching it. Thanks for the effort! :)
1-4-3-2
Berlin sounds the most natural. Spitfire sounds second best with less depth than Berlin. Performance Samples sounds ok, but the attacks are not natural and it is thin sounding. Cinebrass is way to hyped, sound like harmonic distortion on the top end.
I am not sure I agree.. the attack on the Berlin was soft and rose into the pitch where as the others had a good attack. In fact, I would say the Berlin had the worst attack but good sustain for me. They all seem to have + and - to them that is why no one library can rule them all.
It is real players and if that is what you hear then it is what they played. You also didn't use all the different attacks that are is the library so it's hard to compare. I've listened to all the Berlin samples and I think their ear, room and process are the most realistic sounding. It seems most of the libraries tweak their high end to give it a push like people do in the compression wars. I'd rather start with the most natural sounding sample then tweak them to the desired sound. Thanks for your posts.
All the libraries use "real players" however Berlin started all their attacks soft then bloom into the note which sounds natural for some instances but certainly not all. I am not hear to argue about tastes. What you like others may not and hence why I present the video without giving my own opinion on what I feel is best. Truth is, what I feel is best changes from style of music and articulation needed. Essentially we composers need to have many libraries to achieve "realness" in orchestral mockups.
Brilliant video mate, my favourite theme from the sequel trilogy by far (a shame The Last Jedi was such a disaster writing/story wise). Number 2 sounded the best for me, followed by number 4.
Good comparison, with the worst audio possible.
Thanks. I do plan to fix audio and video.
Oh jeez... after listening to the original piece, all these libraries sound terrible, to be honest :(
yep! can't beat live. maybe I could have spent more time programming but honestly there is no time for that in film scoring... you gotta work quick, so just hire a live orchestra instead!
If you spend any time woodsheding with samples (which I have done from the very beginning of virtual orchestration) and spent any time trying to duplicate the sound of various scores, you quickly find out that you cannot. You can get close, you can get a good result, but you are not duplicating anything. Every score is done with different people, different composers, different rooms, different conductors, different microphones and so on. So many variables. Same with virtual orchestrations. Live musicians is not the end-all be-all of music, and getting live musicians guarantees nothing. It is just a tool (a very good one with the right effort) just like the virtual stuff, but there are things you can do with virtual instruments that you cannot with live musicians, and there are things you can only get with live musicians. Almost all movie trailers use virtual instruments, most TV shows use mostly all virtual instruments with some live musicians mixed in (some few TV shows are mostly live), and most movies use virtual orchestrations, but as the budget goes up, so does the use of live musicians. Even blockbuster scores use many virtual instruments with the live stuff, with Hans Zimmer being the pioneer of the mixed media approach. One of the best composers I know, who is a master of orchestral virtualiazations, said to me once "the arrangement is what matters the most". So like Scott says below, if you spend a lot of time with the arrangement, it makes a big difference, and then most people can't tell virtual from real. It's all a collection of tools and how you use them. The only rule is, "If it sounds good, it is good."
Thanks for the answers. I don't have too many experience with live musicians in my composing work, not to mention orchestras - as you pointed out, budgets (in my field) don't allow to hire more than a few instrumentalist, usually; but surely both of the statements seem to be true in some way, as far as I could tell.
Definitely - samples can sound great and nothing stops one from making great track based purely on your computer. I've been doing that for a few years, succesfully. I've never heard anyone telling me to tweak in my cues, because its "computerness" was too noticeable.
BUUUT at the same time I felt, very quickly!, that samples are narrowing my palette and have serious impact on not only arragements, but overall style of my cues. At some point of perfectioning parts you just cannot imitate real, expressive strings with samples. Programmed, good sounding string quartet was out of my reach, always. You also cannot experiment with instruments in a creative way, as usually VIs have just basic articulations. However I wanted to experiment to create interesting acoustic sounds - I always ended up relying on synths for that task. Shame!
And slowly, but gradually, I sank into composing very staccatoed, tonal percussion-heavy pieces, for obvious reasons - only short, finite articulations' samples can sound 'real real'. Anything softer, longer, stretched - pain in the ass...
Solution was, and is, for me - getting best samples I could find, especially for string parts (Chamber Strings, yeah!) and mixing in at least one real instrumentalist along the way, somewhere.
Cheers!
but isn't hiring a live orchestra too expensive compared to hiring 40 to 50 computer artist to nuance the libraries to be just as good
what's the difference if you cut the cost in half and it doesn't take longer?
Incorrect. All samples were PLAYED in and I used ModWh for all of them. You are simply wrong sir however you are welcome to recreate my experiment on your own systems and show me better.