What's In My Template Pt 2: Brass
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ค. 2024
- Part 2 of my favorite libraries in my template: Brass!
0:00 Start
0:20 CineBrass
3:17 CineBrass Examples
6:42 Cinematic Studio Brass
10:07 Cinematic Studio Brass Examples
12:36 Other Brass Libraries
Libraries Mentioned:
CineBrass (by @cinesamples.official)
Cinematic Studio Brass (by @cinematicstudioseries2985)
Berlin Brass / JXL Brass (by @Orchestral-Tools)
Hollywood Brass (by East West)
Symphobia (by @ProjectSAMCinematicSampling)
Albion / BML / Symphonic Brass (by Spitfire)
More info about Anne-Kathrin Dern:
www.annedern-filmcomposer.com
imdb.me/annekathrindern
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne-Ka...
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#samplelibrary #brass #template
"They f'd up!" LOL. You have articulated something I have thought for years.
Sometimes you gotta let it out! ;-)
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer > Exactly! LOL
Hi Anne, I recently came across your site. I totally agree with all of your comments on the Spitfire Symphony library. I also find it very difficult to use for all the reasons you talk about. Your composing experience and library recommendations are valued. Many thanks.
Great detail here. You highlight the main things I have learned to look for in a library yet always keep the discussion centered on musicality and use cases. Thank you!
I’m glad you find my review approach helpful!
Really love this. Im also glad you brought up about doing a bunch of retakes when there are imperfections. I was wondering about this since I am not a professional composer. So I fell for that selling point. I would absolutely love to hear what you like when it comes to strings. Can't wait for the next video. 🙂
Thank you! Yes, strings are coming up soon as well as percussion.
Thank you so much for this series Anne! I've had Cinebrass for a few years but still learning great things about it. Now I really want Cinematic Studio Brass! Your template looks astonishing!!
Thank you Christy! I'll do a template walkthrough as well after I'm done with the library stuff and my next Q&A video. And yes, CSB definitely fills in some gaps from CB. I don't know how necessary it is for people who already have Berlin Brass since I don't know that library well.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer template walk through would DEFINITELY be my #1 request! Thanks! :)
Hi Anne-Kathrin, I really enjoy your channel, I just discovered it. Brava! I also love the shots you put at the beginning of each of your videos, because they remind me of my long visit to LA in 2011. To join the discussion here, my blend for brass has been Spitfire (the older BML series) + Hollywood Brass, out of which I think I have gotten a lot during the past years. HB has a very nice sound and a couple of almost miraculous patches (you know how it goes with libraries). Recently, I have been interested in creating a more playable brass section and I am using a blend of CineBrass Sonore (love it), Adventure Brass by Musical Sampling, brass solo by Sample Modeling and some JXL Brass instruments. And I have to say that, along with the sound and dynamics, I really like the playability of this solution.
Wonderful comparison, thank you very much for this!
Thanks for watching!
Definitely agree with you regarding Cinematic Studio Brass, it really is a great library and SO easy to use (same goes for CSS). And funny you mentioned about the lack of Cinebrass horn trills because the CSB trills are some of the most realistic samples I've ever heard - they really nailed them. Also not tried JXL but heard great things...
Thanks for watching! Yes, absolutely my experience as well. The detail in CSB, the consistency, and the out-of-the box ease of use is really a huge selling point for me.
Seriously, SpitFire, give us as close to perfect samples as possible. Let us add our own humanization if we need it.
Yeah, I really wish their stuff was much cleaner in terms of editing, programming, and denoising.
I totally agree. Quite annoying to play a given note and to hear the floor creaking or an inconsistency in the sound because the player had some kind of a faulty movement and the engineers didn't take the oh-so-extraordinary pain to do another take. Man, they sell that stuff hundreds of euros each. What do they think? It is all the more surprising if not outrageous that Chris Henson keeps saying over and over how realistic they want to be at Spitfire and how much they seek perfection. Well, then, BE close to perfection! Not to mention it is a bitter pill to swallow when you can't be refunded if you're not happy with what you bought. You've just lost your money and that's it.
@@vincentdargere7033 My feelings exactly. Their products ain't cheap, and it hurts when you realise you won't be using some of them at all.
@@eylam9690 That was my case when I bought Abbey Road One. They don't warn you it is ensemble patches only, no single instruments, and I discovered too late I'd bought something that I instantly thought would be totally useless to me. As a matter of fact, I didn't use it for a long time indeed. Then it came to my mind I could make a use of it eventually, if I wanted to draft some rough ideas for instance, but that's not my usual way of working. I'm used to writing directly separate instruments. So, if I sketch something with ARO, it means I'll have to write each separate track again . Double pain.
@@vincentdargere7033Yes they do, there's a whole walkthrough video and it's also mentioned on their website
Absolutely agree with you 100% on the 'imperfections'. The amount of times that 'imperfections' (in places where they absolutely should not be) are celebrated as 'authentic' or 'true-to-life' always surprises me. I suppose I'm referring to the the wider spectrum of music performance and recording with that comment, but I've had several back-and-forths with not-to-be-named Music Library companies because half of the notes of a particular instrument sound as if the Cellist hit the mic with their bow.
Great video series btw, really looking forward to getting some new libraries when work picks up again!
Thanks for watching! Glad you liked it! And indeed, imperfections to me really should cross a certain threshold, otherwise they are just mistakes that weren't corrected.
One of the most honest and best reviewers I have found. Thanks!
I would love your thoughts on JXL Brass, if you have tried it yet.
JXL Brass (aka Tom Holkenborg Brass) is great with its big section sizes. The Horns and Trombones are great. You can achieve some really badass low brass section when you layer Trombones, Bass Trombones, Cimbassi, Tuba and maybe also Horns. I don't like the sound of the trumpets so much in JXL brass.
Synchron brass, my absolute favorite
Excellent series of videos I recently discovered on TH-cam. Not advertising oriented. Comparing linbraries subjectively. Just let you know that your selection is very close to mine in many categories of libraries.! :). After many trials, I love and only using Cinematic Studio Strings layered with Cinematic Strings 2. I love using Cinematic studio Brass layered with CineBrass or with Performance Samples Caspian. After many trials, I love and only using Berlin Woodwinds. Keep up the good videos Anne. God bless.
Thanks for watching! I'm glad you enjoy the videos!
thank you for this!!
Thanks for watching!
Thank you for those presentations. It's pretty hard to have an idea before buying. And usually, you fall for the best sellsman.
I personnaly bought a lot of Sptifire stuff, especially the Studio orchestra version for brass. It's a good one, but needs some work !
My biggest regret is buying spitfire studio strings THEN CSS. Maybe there are less articulations in CSS, but it needs waaaay less effort to make them sound good.
Now i just play them on eachother, which sounds great.
Anyways, big thanks for your reviews !
CineBrass and CSB make the perfect blend you're right! The only drawback I have for CSB is the limited range on some of the instruments. I really wish the trombones and horns went down to a C and not end on an E. Although this can be fixed with tuning.
Yes agreed. I don't understand why the CSB trombones lack the low C and D. From CSB I absolutely love the Horns a4!
EWQL Symphonic Orchestra was a blast 10 years ago but it lacks modern legatos. Please try Hollywood Brass, it is a big studio sounding library so it needs a bit of work delay/reverb wise but it is my favorite thing of the bunch.
I very much appreciate your reviews. You pinpoint issues of which I have experienced. For example, you talk about the inconsistent articulations among instruments. I can relate based on frustration. On a different note, many I know report that Berlin is the best for brass. Given that, I would really like to hear your review on Berlin Brass whenever you happen to get your hands on it.
Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad you're enjoying my reviews. Would love to try out and review Berlin Brass and see how it compares to the other ones if they decide to send me an NFR. It doesn't make sense to me to buy it of course, given that I already own two high end brass libraries and therefore don't need another. But I'm certainly curious!
I am hard working right now, but can not wait to see your video at a break or breakfast.
Hope you'll enjoy!
Thanks for another instructive video... Really interesting to hear about your experiences from recording studios... authentic "miss haps" lose their charm if they happen every time you play a certain way... do you have any experience with the Heavyocity FORZO library?
I really like the way you comment, very real.
Cinematic Studio Brass blows them all out of the water for me! :D
I certainly like it a lot! I'm not sure I'd use it all by itself for some lack of fullness but in terms of expressiveness and detail I think you're right.
It's a tough call, but I think I agree, mostly for the realism. The first thing that sticks out to me as a musician when listening to music is when something sounds cheap or lifeless. So the realism of something sounding like a human played it vs. recorded snippets being stitched together is definitely a win, and (as with CGI) a necessity to not break the world you're immersing your audience into. I think Cinematic Studio Brass excels at building that world.
Have you done a video on how best to mix different Brass librairies? And string librairies.
Gr8 vid! Thanx. And totally agree about Spitfire. Have you noticed though the room noise at the end of some of the Cinebrass samples?
Yes, absolutely! It's one of the flaws of a lot of CS libraries. SONY is not the most quiet hall and sometimes low velocity samples get normalized which increases the room buildup. Definitely was one of the most common complaints while I was working there. I know they've started doing new RX de-noise passes on some libraries to clean that up a little but this is definitely something to watch out for.
Hello Anne,
This weekend I was looking at reviews of brass libraries because of black friday (I am not a musician by trade, but I love all sorts of music and especially acoustic instruments) and I found your channel. I’m glad I did. It is very interesting to see the details, workflow and technical aspects of professional music composition. I watched your “Sample Libraries” series -- well, I did a big mistake there ($$), should have stopped in the “brass” video haha ;) -- long story short: Now I have a long path of learning to do and some incredible acoustic collections to explore and use for a very very long time. Nuff said, right?!… A world of musical inspiration there for sure. I hope you continue sharing your passion and dedication for music and your great wisdom in this channel. Anyways, I just wanted to say thank you!
*If you like to play the piano, have you heard of the Ravenscroft 275 VST, from vilabsaudio? I think it’s fantastic.
**By the way, some of your videos have great intros with places from CA
Glad you like the channel! I have a feeling I'm responsible for a lot of people's $$$ mistakes at this point - then again a good investment is never a mistake. The places in the intros are usually from my bike rides here in LA. It gets me out of the studio on occasion for some welcome vitamin D. :-)
Hey , Thank You for fantastic video. If i may i would love to see some tutorial about how You EQ Your libraries, settings and also reverb them . That would be very helpfull. Thank You very much for great clip again .!
Thanks for watching! Yes, I will address some of this in my template walkthrough but I'll also do a separate video on EQ and Reverb.
Thanks for the video! I agree Spitfire brass libraries leave a lot to be desired. I use BBC Symphony Orchestra and I feel the brass section is the weakest link.
Thanks for watching and for the additional info!
Yup. even with the latest update, the legato's only go up to aound mf in their dynamic range and the solo horn longs dynamic range is a mess. sounds like a kazoo band.
Hi Anne! Thanks for pointing out the Spitfire Brass issues. I couldn't agree more! There are significant tuning issues in some samples (I remember the Trombones a2 and Bass Trombones a2). And of course the thing with the inconsistent articulations per instrument. So annoying. For a long time I refused to buy the more expensive Orchestral Tools Berlin series but meanwhile I did and I am happy with that decision. You get a quality product, really great samples, no tuning issues or whatever. So in my opinion: Berlin Brass has the most realistic orchestral sound. Cinematic Studio Brass is great for trailer stuff / epic music. JXL Brass (now Tom Holkenborg Brass) is soundwise between Berlin and CSB. And if you're into epic music / trailer you will also find great brass in the Metropolis Ark series! Grüße aus der Heimat, Burkhard
I'm loving JXL brass. Its the only library I've used where switching thorugh articulations in the phrase sound like a performance, where other brass gets a sucking effect on some attacks. Cinebrass is simple but I couldn't be without out it - it just sounds so good out the box. I only wish they had better lower dynamics. Not keen on HWB for trombones, but the french horns legatos are insane (like a more agile cinebrass). I stoppped using spitfire because the tuning and is the opposite of JXL in the way that none of the articulations match up and it doesn't sound like a performance. Their legato is also pretty ropey.
Thank you for the additional information! I've heard great stories about both JXL brass and Berlin brass - which is not surprising since Orchestral Tools puts out great stuff all the time.
I can confirm what you say about JXL brass (now Tom Holkenborg brass). This was one of the main goals from Tom when he designed the library with Orchestral Tools. And the same is true for Berlin Brass. With Marcato Long, Marcato Short, Staccato and Staccatissimo aarrticulations combined you get realistic, convincing fanfare like performance. In Spitfire Brass these articulations exist (in some instruments yes, others not...) but they do not blend together convincingly.
So, now I am interested in Cinematic Studio Brass :-)
It's great! Though if you already have a bunch of brass libraries, I don't know how much it'll add.
Great overview - thank you! Do you still recommend Cinebrass/CSB as the top brass libraries in 2022?
Very Illustrative and helpful, especially your take on SF libraries.
Glad this was helpful to you!
As you talk about Spitfire, it sounds like you would love VSL's Synchron Brass. Have you demo'd it? What about Tom H's Brass library (orchestral tools)?
Once again, it looks like I bought one of the great brass libraries very early on. I've not used Cinebrass in my productions due to technical issues I had that clearly there's a workaround for. The best demo I've ever heard was from Modern Scoring Brass. Great sounding out of the box it is not, at least not entirely across the board, but I'm very happy with the ultimate result. I'm pretty sure I could have never gotten as far with Cinebrass. You can automate legato speed and volume. Where it absolutely shines is that you get a completely dry option. Can mix with anything. Very responsive, even at really fast speeds. It's also phase coherent. It's a must for me and probably shouldn't be because it excludes so many libraries.
AudioBro’s feature set is incredible: articulations, runs, ostinatos programmable arpeggios and divisi all in one instrument. It’s a bit intimidating though. Yes, Modern Scoring Brass definitely doesn’t sound very good without some initial tweaking but I don’t have that problem as much with Modern Scoring Strings.
Would really love to see an honest review of the „new“ EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Opus Edition, cause it’s just such an affordable option for beginners… and I think their brass sounds really good^^
Excellent review! This really helped me narrow down which library I'm getting next (CSB).
I love your thoughts about about tuning and timing imperfections...you're right professional productions won't accept that level of performance, and mocking something up which doesn't represent the core sound you want to record isn't helpful-in fact, I've found that to be a problem with 8DIO libraries.
Btw, OT Berlin Brass is very good but expensive with all the add-ons to get mutes and baritone brass instruments-TBH, I'm not a fan of their Junkie XL Brass-it sounds very processed to me.
Yes I think CSB is a good choice. With 8dio Century Brass I can't remember to have tuning issues. But very often the articulations do not work together as they should and articulations are not consistent throughout instruments. I loved the Fanfare shorts in Century brass! But in the end I have to say that I don't use Century brass anymore because of the inconsistent articulations. It sucks when you have laid down a great line in your horns and want to do the same an octave lower with the trombones but you can't because some articulations used in the horns do not exist for the trombones...
Oh. I was so curious about your opinion on OT JXL Brass. :-) I hope you can get your hands on it soon and tell us what you think about it. :-)
Would love to try it as well as Berlin Brass to see how they stack up compared to CineBrass and Cinematic Studio Brass. But of course I'm not going to drop several thousand dollars on libraries I don't need just to compare them to the ones I already have...
FINALLY!!
SOMEONE STATING THE OBVIOUS..!!
Sorry for the caps... :D
DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE CAPS! ALL GOOD! :-D
Your ending notes on imperfections sent me! This is brilliant!
Hahaha, it's what most people seem to comment on... and here I am always being careful giving my opinions on things since I want this to be a mostly fact based channel.
God! I loved what you said about those Spitfire libraries! Exactly! I don’t get it either! Who pays that much for a library and says, “man, I wish this didn’t sound as good. Where are the poorly played, out of tune notes?”
I adore Spitfire Audio, they make my absolute favourite string and all in one libraries, I have also found their woodwinds to be above average and usually and lower prices than other companies, and I agree with Tundra and that its brass is absolutely beautiful, I pretty much use it for all my Skyrim and nordic inspired brass textures and to add some fx sounding stuff on my jazz orch stuff. But they have always continuously disappointed me with the Brass libraries, either they are mediocre or just down right horrible (studio brass is atrocious)
also, I'm not sure but maybe the imperfection selling point is a British thing. I mean imperfect sounding libraries do honestly work for Scandi, which is a style spitfire pretty much try to sell out of the box.
It would be really nice to know what you think about the performance sample libraries for example Caspian (it's a brass library)
This isn't really a library review channel and of course I won't buy every library out there just to review it on TH-cam. I'm not really in need of another brass library so if a developer wants a review done, they can send me an NFR. But there are plenty of other composers out there already doing this on a weekly basis so I'm not sure how much I'd have to contribute anyway. These videos - as mentioned in part 1 - are just to go over what I like to have in my template since people have been asking about it a lot.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer I understand that. Thank you for your answer :)
@@uuz9188 Performance Samples seems to be for beginners, or folks on time restraints, that want something very decent out of the box that you don't have to tweak. It's that way for their choir. Just plug and play. You can't make it sound bad.
Heyy, what do you think of SWAM vst? I'm considering it for versatility but does it blend well on the professional level in your opinion? Thx.
I use BBCSO Pro, and I think the brass is the weakest part of that library.. It took me a long time and a lot of EQ'ing to get it to where I need it to be. I can't afford to have multiple libraries, but I did end up splashing out on 8Dio Century Brass just to fill in the gaps.
Nice video
Since taking the mantle from pioneers Miroslav, & Peter Siedlaczek, Berlin Orchestral Tools have remained THE best go-to for a realistic European classical symphonic orchestral sound over a Hollywood one, for film scoring, their Brass would best work for intimate, artistic productions. However, an exception is their rare collaboration with former Zimmer protege Hollywood composer Tom Holkenborg for the "Junkie XL Brass" library that successfully takes the huge Hollywood sound for Brass to the nth degree, for a first attempt at such a modern library they really got it right! So if you want to consider investing in an OT library for media-work, Junkie should be your very first choice!
Second that about Spitfire - if you want to be humanly imperfect, then don't try to be imperfect - try to be perfect instead, and you'll come out as humanly imperfect as you are. Also they did something very weird with mic positions in Symphonic Brass - if you solo the close mic of the horn, it sounds like a Casio keyboard from the 90s.
Huge dynamic range in both, unlike, say, BBCSO... You cannot help but feel you could have done without more than half of the mic positions they give you in exchange for better samples.
GET BODIED SPITFIRE!! Lmaoo
is that cine brass essentials or does it have elements needing the whole brass product?
Hi!....Do you use really the Cinebrass Full Brass Ensemble FX 1-3, high chords, low chords,Monster Low Brass, I mean how this it can be notated (sibelius, etc) and played for a real orchestra? Thanks.
Yes, I use these sometimes for effect, as well as some of the Symphobia FX patches. It’s up to the orchestrator to figure out the notation by ear. Some effects we don’t record if the samples do exactly what we need but usually we will have it notated and recorded to have something more unique that not everyone has.
I really appreciate that you share with us your template but one thing i hate is that every, and i mean, EVERY, composer on youtube apply processing on the sounds. Is it really hard to let the samples sound on their own so we can hear the pure, natural sound the way they recorded it? Anyway, keep doing videos, your contents are helpful a lot!!
Any professional recording will have mix processing applied. It’s necessary to clean up frequency buildups, cover up shortcomings of the room, tie everything together, etc.
Take a look at Miroslav Philharmonik!
SO MANY mistakes! They forgot to give one of the the keys in a timpani patch a sound, they sometimes give two keys the same note. XD
and everything plays at one velocity unless specified.
On the bright side, they did give us human noise samples.
Hi, thank you for taking the time. I wonder why you never mention VSL. Some will regard those libraries to be among the best, ann ceryainly no tuning/timing problems.
Spitfire Studio Brass Pro are great but difficult to use. But I really don't like their BBC SO Core Brass library. The horns are to muddy
Yea, Spitfire has some really nice libraries, but I can’t imagine any composer bring happy when a, “feature” interrupts our vision.
This might be a dumb question but if all of your patches are legato then how do you play chords?
Very much agree about the out of tune and/or sloppily edited samples, as well as inconsistencies. I can't work with SF stuff. It's just too problematic.
Yeah to each their own. There are ppl who really like it but I have a hard time with SF as well.
I completely agree. I find it silly we're paying for imperfections noisy/outune samples.
Yes, the premium prices don't really help the matter I find.
Anne-Kathrin, you got me interested in the Albion V Tundra Brass textures! I’d like to try them but can’t find them in the library, which folder are they located in? Tundra’s Brass folder seems to contain only mellow brass sustains...thanks for the informational video and any help!
Undoubtedly Berlin Brass is the best among those libraries. the very picture of Berlin woodwinds you do not need anything else .
What makes me mad with Spitfire Brass is the lack of upper dynamic layers, especially trumpets and horns. At most it sounds like a strong mf. Berlin Brass was like that, but now they added a fff layer to horns and trumpets.
Oh! MULHER LINDA!
I agree with everyone else..SF is notorious for leaving things out of tune and noisy for the sake of "humanism"..nope. Redo it. The only library that I will accept slight imperfections from is Performance Samples because the rewards and playability far outweighs the slight imperfections or noise...well worth the trade off.
Indeed! It's been a topic of heated discussion for years. Of course some instruments are a bit noisy but that's why a sampling team would normally go through every single sample (especially the releases) and look at them in iZotope RX to find any egregious noises that need to be taken out or lowered in volume.
I don't see any VSL instruments in your libraries. Do you not use VSL or have an opinion on them? I'm curious to know!
Yea I don't hear too much about people using VSL. I think their demos sound terrible IMO
@@es__music I think it's over priced too. Looks like they have a cumbersome UI too so you spend more time in the settings than playing and writing music.
@@KevinLynchNJ Or considered oppositely, the Synchron Player is wonderfully flexible.
Hi, I'm watching all your library videos and I have a question.
} Why in none of them do you mention the BBCSO of spitfire and what opinion do you have about that library?
And I don't know if you know Steinberg's ICONICS, you should see them, although they are expensive, they have good points in wood and their brass have an interesting sound.
sorry if i write something wrong i don't speak english this is written with google translator
greetings from Colombia South America HOW I WOULD LOVE FOR SOMEONE TO CREATE ALL THIS TYPE OF VIDEOS IN SPANISH BUT I THINK THAT IN THIS REGION THE MONEY IS NOT REACHED FOR SO MANY LIBRARIES
I can’t agree with you more. Don’t they realize we have to use the same samples over and over in the same piece of music, which means the identical imperfections appear over and over in the same track, which is just bizarre! Humans can’t produce the identical imperfections over and over again.
Yes, it really does become an issue when you hear the same noise over and over again. In some passages it can make a library completely unusable unfortunately.
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer Absolutely yes! If I need that specific C2 Bass Trombones Marcato note in my piece and it is so significantly out of tune then the library is simply unusable for me.
best brass libraries are orchestral tools brass libraries, you should try to..
I never see you speak about Vienna Symphonic Library, except when it comes to VEP, of course.
I'm wondering whether it's because you don't like their libraries, or never tried any of them? Or maybe they're not adapted to your more 'Hollywood' style? They just release a whole new, very complete, brass library (in July 2021). So, what's the deal with them? Curious to know what you think of their products (if you have any thoughts about them)...
Being a trombone player for over 15 years, I'm constantly frustrated by trombone samples. Berlin Brass are very good however. Even JXL have some nice trombone patches. Berlin Brass is more classical/concert hall sounding. It's not as hyped for film scoring.
Yeah agreed. It's generally the mouthpieces of trumpets and trombones that make them harder to sample and the generally stronger "bright brassiness". That's why horns and tubas fare a bit better usually when it comes to sampling. It's surprising to me how few developers manage to get the warmth and body of the trombones instead of capturing the attack and brightness. There's some processing that can be done to compensate for that but in general this is one of the biggest differences for me when using live brass. The horns are great but even just getting 3 trombones in there just changes everything. I remember my additional writers using all those massive trombone ensemble patches and being worried when we only had 3 live trombones. I reassured them that the three live trombones would sound twice as massive as their "monster low brass" and they didn't disappoint - huge learning opportunity right there.