I don't blame TFS themselves for the flanderization of characters, I blame the fans and writers who couldn't tell the difference between DBZ and DBZA. Just like Sage said, they begin all their videos with "this is a fan made parody," yet way, way too many people just straight up forgot that those were joke versions of the characters
I understand what the future Trunks take but the original is better simply due to the hypothetical feeling like a cheap cop out and people already exaggerate the narrative that death doesn't matter.
For the future trunks take: I understand his take. essentially to say hell with the special, start the cell saga off with trunks & the z fighters losing to the androids , and then have trunks go back. my whole point is/would be that would be VERYYY deflating to the series. To essentially see all our fav characters die & then a consolation of alternate versions of those characters getting a 2nd chance, is vastly different than portraying our current universe as one that is affected by time travel & another one wasn’t lucky. Essentially “our universe loses & now we’re in a fake one” vibes vs “our universe was going to lose if it wasn’t for time travel” Idk if I’m saying that the perfect way but I’m confident y’all understand unless you don’t want to 😂 lmao point is I def still disagree
I don’t necessarily disagree but that’s kinda what happens regardless we are just on the other side of it from jump. The Future Timeline is the original timeline we see things post Trunks changing things so we already are seeing another version of the cast get a 2nd chance
My hot take: A lot of “what if” scenarios that we call stupid would have been defended by the same people slandering them if they were simply the canon. 🤷🏾♂️
Probably not that hot of a take. There are so many people that are quick to yell "filler" or "not canon" in scenarios that don't even require canonicity to be in the argument. Maybe people don't recognize this as an issue because they haven't thought about it, though that wouldn't be too surprising either.
How to get Gohan Black: Zamasu, not being dumb, asks the All-Knowing guy better questions such as "Is there a better body change candidate than Goku?" or "Who among Goku's allies would be threats to my plan?" etc. etc. This leads to learning about Gohan and his massive growth potential, proceeding to ask for more info on him, finding out about how he was the strongest of the Z fighters during the late/end of Buu Saga, and how swapping bodies to this Gohan gives him a good opportunity to sneak kill Shin, thus killing Beerus. There's no one left in that part of the timeline to stop him, so he can continue with his Zero Mortals plan in Gohan's body that can reach higher levels of power than Goku. It's doable. Unlikely given that Zamasu's whole issue is because of seeing Goku's god power and losing to him, but doable.
not only that, but Gohan is trained by the old kaioshin too and he is the strongest pre BoG (since Goku was busy being a family man and a farmer at the time)
Goku had power leagues above Gohan by that point and Zamasu damn sure wasn't going to put in the effort to exploit the potential through proper training since he clearly didn't bother doing so with Goku's (He was weaker than Goku and couldn't even transform their first fight), so taking Goku's was the best option for him in the end.
@NeonSwordsManFangattack He never transformed because he literally had nobody that strong to fight. Yeah, trunks transformed but still get washed by Goku Black. Once he started fighting Goku/Vegeta, he started enjoying the whole thing more so what're you talking about?,
@@NeonSwordsManFangattack By the end of the Buu arc, Ultimate Gohan was the strongest fighter. The closest Goku could get to him was with SSJ3, which as we know, loses power FAST. Even if it were stronger than Ult Gohan, that's only going to last for a few minutes and cripple him. He doesn't need to train to exploit Gohan's potential. He can just do what he did as Goku Black. Partner with another version of himself, get into fights that cause him to get harmed, then call his double in for healing to exploit Zenkai. And given how triggered Zamasu gets when pissed off, that'll liable to interact well with Gohan's rage boosts and give him even more power.
Hot take: Resurrection F makes no in-universe sense. Frieza got chopped up by Trunks and remained in Hell, wrapped up in a cocoon for 9 years. There is no way that he got wished back to life, trained with a FRIEZA FORCE SOLDIER for 4 months, and became stronger than a Super Saiyan 3. TL;DR - Frieza being as strong as he is in the movie is bullshit.
I personally disagree because thinking about it, without training a day in his life he had a power level of 530k and this was a form he used to SUPPRESS HIS POWER it’s just wild that he’s at 120m (give or take a bit since he did get injured by the spirit bomb and Super Saiyan Goku) without any training We’ve seen what training does for people like Gohan in the Cell Saga so imagine that potential but on steroids on steroids and I think Frieza’s large power jumps are reasonable
@@Swagsire_except… that quality of frieza’s race was retconned FOR THE PURPOSE of Golden Frieza. Think about it, if Frieza can get that strong that quick, and every Frieza race can do it, why was Beerus so lackadaisical about destroying them? Why would whis keep his word and actually resurrect him after TOP. Some elaborate training ritual for Goku/vegeta?? Just cuz they justify it doesn’t mean it’s not lame. Out of all legacy Dbz villains to bring back and quickly make them strong, Cell actually fits much better. He could theoretically keep blowing himself up abusing Zenkai boosts. You could even say he got stronger than He’ll, if Cell’s Hell was constantly getting packed up by Gohan. He has piccolo genes, piccolo can get stronger thru meditation alone. What if he was in a constant battle with someone he could never beat, unknowingly getting stronger and stronger. Idk, makes more sense to me than just making shit up about Frieza.
@@kennethfocarino7075 fair point however… Frieza (I believe anyway) was stated to be a mutant so his insane power is something wouldn’t be shared by others in his race at his age. I personally believe Whis reviving Frieza was a form of training for Goku and Vegeta (didn’t work out so well) but nonetheless it will make them get stronger most likely. Also I agree with Cell being a good pick, I doubt he would be as willing to comply as Frieza since he would be on the team of Gohan who made him crashout HARD after regurgitating #18 while Frieza always had plans to be ruling the universe again while Cell’s motivation would probably be something along the lines of “I want to fight you again” but after the tournament he gets obliterated so dastardly he wouldn’t get the chance again. Also, self inflicted harm doesn’t trigger zenkais so I’m pretty sure the Super Perfect Cell power boost came from the beat down from Gohan originally. Finally, Cell’s “down there place” might not be Gohan beating him again and again, like it wasn’t for Frieza. It’s really weird since there is a chance you’re correct but looking at his character I’d honestly say it’s just somewhere where he can’t fight anybody strong, get stronger and just generally gets reminded of his imperfection. And IF his “down there place” was infact Gohan beating him up time and time again there is NO WAY he would’ve agreed to be put on the team with Gohan as team leader.
22:30 Gohan would still have to go to Namek because the Earth dragon balls would only be able to revive Yamcha, Piccolo, and Future Trunks as they were never revived by Shenron
I loved the start of ssj4 Gogeta’s fight. It was just a showcasing of peak power like how the dude had to slow down his frames for us and omega to see him attack omega. Most swag man for sure
He is literally more human than Goku. And Goku is boring,thats his whole thing.He is NOT more interesting than Gohan. And get ready cause without Toriyama,things are changing
@@newhybrid101whatever makes money we’ll see more of. Personally, a guy who only stands on business when others get bullied isn’t it for me. He’s too reactive. Characters like Goku and Vegeta seize the plot. Goku’s drive, charisma, battle genius, smiling in the face of adversity, unshakable will, and overall life philosophy are inspirations to everyone. That’s why he’s the most popular. 🤷 Goku can replaced, but it won’t be by Copehan.
The thing about Gohan being the main character, he'd have to either be a *different* kind of character or Dragon Ball would have to turn into a different kind of story, which it kinda did at the start of the Buu saga I guess. He'd have to be more like his future self in Trunk's timeline because normal Gohan just isn't driven to fight like that.
I never wanted Gohan to be the main character. He simply did not have what Goku has that made the show enjoyable. With Gohan sure you have a badass character with dope writing possibly but he’s also a greater prodigy than Goku and so seeing him struggle, overcome, train, and etc are not as rewarding as with Goku. Plus Goku and Vegetas dynamic by the buu saga is just goated. So since the z fighters have been pushed to the side by the cell saga already, just having Gohan alone is not as enjoyable as Vegeta and Goku unless you manufacture a rival/partner like piccolo or something. I think Gohans arc served it’s purpose and that’s it.
Goku literally has nothing. He just is an archetypal character that embodies Dragon Ball. He is tied to it but he doesn't bring anything to it. He is the show as one person. Goku is liked cause people like Dragon Ball They dont like Dragon Ball cause of Goku
@@newhybrid101 Actually they do. At least originally before super… Goku, like Superman stood for an example of the ultimate hero. He isn’t “an archetype” he is THE archetype that Naruto, luffy, and the other mcs stem from. Put respect on Gokus name.
7:00 Part of the appeal with the Cell/Android Saga was the many mysteries surrounding it. We were given a bit of information from a mysterious stranger that could achieve a legend that only one person could achieve at that point. With that we are given questions: 1.) Just how strong are they? 2.) Will the medicine actually help Goku? 3.) Should we actually believe this stranger or is this a trap? 4.) Will our heroes actually be prepared for these androids? Having History of Trunks as actual episodes before the saga technically begins kinda negates these mysteries and the fake outs like when Gero and 19 show up, having Trunks be like, "Bruh, you trippin'?" causes your heart to drop cause you realize, "Oh crap, if these aren't the androids, where _are_ they?"
My biggest issue with Jiren is that he's characterized by the fact that he believes solely in his own strength. He's got no regard for trust, friendship or comradery. That's his character arc. All good there. No issues with that. But, tell me why a guy who doesn't believe in teamwork or comradery would choose to be part of a goddamn superhero team. Like, at least as far as the anime goes, it really does kinda seem like the writers didn't know what his deal was until the very end
@@CameronClark-rt7dm He doesn't really need to be part of a superhero team to do that tho, especially if he thinks that his teammates would actively slow him down
@@CameronClark-rt7dm I don't mean specifically for the tournament, I mean in general. Jiren was a Pride Trooper before the tournament was even announced, which means he would have been choosing to be part of a team before he knew about that opportunity and threat
Said this before but Black Goku arc shouldn't have had Zamasu but a literal alternate Timeline evil kakorott who didn't hit his head and still went through the events of the series. Imagine how crazy it would've been if that was actually Goku with a similar personality and experiences, but just inherently evil and how it would contrast with our Goku
Kid Buu is weird to scale now honestly. Like back in the day I would agree Buutenks and above were stronger. But then you have the Moro arc where they said the Dai Kaioshin's power was split between fat Buu and kid buu 😂
Gotta disagree with the Buu thing, hypothetically if he absorbed people they wouldn't be dead and he gains some level of their intelligence as shown when he absorbed piccolo and his healing abilities would pretty much allow him to keep everyone around their peak if he's able to get to them and even in if the team were to get close to losing or someones about to be eliminated he could just end up absorbing them and still making use of their power, only thing I do think could happen is Buu getting blitzed by jiren or toppo after realizing his abilities and how busted they are
7:21 Couldn't be bothered to find this one's actual starting point, but he's saying that he wishes that the story continued from the original/Future Trunks timeline with no Trunks interruptions, everything in History Of Trunks plays out, and we see Future Trunks get into the time machine, and then it's pretty much just normal from there. Neat idea, feel like that would mess up pacing a little bit but a neat idea
To phrase it better, it goes Goku kills Frieza like in the F.T. timeline > Goku dies > androids get the squadwipe > Trunks goes back in time > Trunks kills Frieza > everything plays out as normal
6:59 I think he meant to say that we see the future timeline and then the creation of the time machine and Trunks going back in time and cut to the arc as we know it.
I feel like one thing TFS did was showcase how much truth "Dragon Ball fans don't watch the show" has. Them being able to construe the perspective of some characters is purely the fault of the people who leave a video that starts with "this is a fan based PARODY" thinking anything said is a one to one showcase of the source material. This is like thinking Mario hates other gaming characters or is an outright violent person because they saw the Flashgitz video.
Toriyama even refers to all Toei projects as a separate timeline/dimension a while ago. Making the movies, filler, GT, Heroes, video games all canon in their own timelines
Gohan is my favourite db character so seeing him as the mc would be cool but I feel like then it would turn into either a slice of life w Gohan at high school which I’m NOT TRYING TO WATCH or freaking Sailor Moon where he’s a schoolboy in the day and a superhero in the night and I’m NOT TRYING TO WATCH THAT EITHER Goku as the mc is just cool because his main job is fighting guys and not studying which bugs are venomous or toxic😭
that android thing was i think. more like showing goku fighting frieza and his dad, then later die of his sickness, and the z fighters fighting but slowly losing and dying off to the androids and trunks rising up as a saiyan to challenge the androids in the ruined future, getting his ass beat in the process, up until the point where trunks gets in that time machine. seeing how hopeless everything got firsthand and how everyone from piccolo and krillen, to vegeta and gohan all dying in front of us, it's a weirdly dark thing to do in dragon ball, but MIGHT work if framed properly
One thing i hate about db fans is that they dont watch/read the series like your suppossed to then rant over being bad,they either dont read the manga and only watch the anime,with the wrong sub or dub and to add to that they dont event watch the entire anime they either start on z skipping the og or like people are doing rn skipping both og and z to watch from dbza to super.*sigh* sorry for the long rant 😅
I would be happy to see the other universes back story’s only as a different series instead of filler, kinda like how Star Wars has Tales of the Jedi to tell the backstory of Jedi while not interrupting the current timeline (even though the current timelines story is technically over already but you get the point)
The idea was that instead of seeing the main timeline first. We see everyone die first, and then Trunks goes back in time. The story isn’t different. We just see the og timeline first and then see Trunks go back in time to do what he does normally. His actions don’t change, the arc doesn’t change.
so visually show the audience that the universe they fw is wiped & that their main timeline going forth is now a backup… I don’t think that’s a great move but also kinda unnecessary. we’d just see vastly stronger androids have drawn fights just cuz imo
@@TSO_Sage that’s the case already though. This timeline we are currently following is the alt one Trunks makes. The hypothetical doesn’t change that. I don’t see the problem. The androids were weaker in the og timeline, this hypothetical isn’t changing that either. Barely anything is being changed in this hypothetical. Including the androids. Any fight we have seen in Z is still here, and fights aren’t being added. Power levels don’t change. I agree that it’s unnecessary but I feel like you’re making it sound worse than it is. No offense.
@@shadowsansvii8715 i knew u we’re gonna say that lmao there’s a MAJOR difference in the timeline were in being deleted & visually seeing trunks meet new & alive versions of the characters vs trunks popping up in the timeline were already familiar with. Also now that I think about it, it’s VERY weird to have trunks essentially be MC, take an insane backseat, just to then be MC again when he goes back to his timeline, but then we stay in the new alternate timeline. all for the sake of seeing tragedy that can only be dragged on for so long anyway, the androids are insanely strong in comparison to Z fighters who didn’t see them coming. realistically everyone is one shot so the “fights” y’all want to see aren’t really gonna be that good 😂
The trunks take around 7:30 is showing the future trunks timeline and only continue the original timeline by the time trunks goes into the time machine, showing what makes them different and stuff.
not denying that. but again as I said, the more you guys sice & op majin buu, the more likely jiren would just eliminate buu himself earlier on ESPECIALLY if he confronted someone from U11
Buu’s ability alone definitely makes him Public Enemy #2. (Goku is #1) I’d wager that he’d be one of the first five people eliminated after ripping one too many allies out of the jaws of defeat by giving them the second wind. His other abilities are also incredibly dangerous and put a target on his back. however, I don’t really believe he would ever absorb people or turn them into chocolate ever again because of what Mr. Satan told him.
I THINK the trunks idea was to show the bad future backstory (maybe not showing how the androids look like), then the trunks special and then showing trunks get to killing mecha frieza and from there we continue the story like normal It would mostly be a change in order but i still don't like it
7:19 What hes saying is we first see the entire Original timeline of what happens uptil future trunks is beaten up where he goes back that way we see what has happened before this would make the appearance of 19&20 Extremely more Significant confusing the viewers to why these androids showed up and cause anticipation for 17&18 and finally the viewers being surprised at the fact they are so basically we see what had happened and then the changed history like in a classic anime scene where a character foresees his death dies and then we realize that hasnt happened yet and he prevents it. Ive seen this approach personally in other anime some of my favs and it works Like a charm
I think if written better cell saga can be the best. I think the transformations on the villains and z fighters sides weee a bit messy but I know during the original manga run the editors were full on with Akira Toriyama making changes and having a strict deadline I think now he would of paced the cell transformations better and gave us a better understanding of the ascended forms.
@dominiquerobinson8888 Gohan would not work for the story that dragon ball is. Gohan is too serious minded. A character like Gohan could work for a different story though
@@RedMoonLoop Yea but he doesn’t work for Dragonball because he’s simply not goku. Cause Gohan isn’t really that serious especially in the Buu saga. In the beginning he acts kinda goofy and makes jokes, doesn’t take training seriously, and at the end isn’t like a Future trunks who tries to finish the job quick.
TLDR: jumping cell would have been viable if they had planned for it, or even if they ran a similar scheme as on namek vs frieza. The thing that keeps it from happening in story is the characterization I don’t think the “jumping cell” plan is as bad as stated for a couple reasons. First the super saiyans at least (and probably piccolo as well, certainly with special beam cannon) at least damage cell with charged ki attacks like vegeta showed during the beam struggle, where cell was stronger than the start of the tournament. He even would have killed cell if final flash had landed clean, though cell would never let that happen, certainly not again. At a minimum have them back court while gohan and goku duo. Secondly, we saw successful assists with bigger gaps in power on namek. The issue is the characters wouldn’t actually do any of this. As far as “this is how they best could have protected earth” I think it’s right, but it’s not very dragon ball z, at least post namek.
For the Goten black thing you could of gotten creative with it, like maybe Goten was actually born in the future timeline. Does it make sense no but time travel shenanigans are already used to explain weird shit. Let's say he was never acknowledged by Gohan or Trunks, Gohan because he was never home due to stressing over the androids and Trunks being trained by Gohan. You'd say well why wouldn't Chi chi tell Gohan, because she's a mother who's always been obsessed with giving her kids a life outside of fighting so they can be successful and that's in a more successful timeline. In Trunk's future everyone is dead so it would make perfect sense if Chi chi would go to extreme lengths to really make sure Goten also didn't fall into that life, out of fear she would lose him too. So you'd have a Goten who never received any attention form his older brother give him a motivation around that, have him actually be educated on the z fighters history and the traits of the saiyan's that realistically are often times their downfall. Give him some motivation around that, with his perspective being extremely skewed on what it means to be a saiyan, martial artist and a son family member. The story could have honestly been great, because it means we don't just have to receive an answer from Goten black in regard to those questions but also Goten. Hell you could even give Chi chi some character development with her actions being tied to everything, her overprotective nature being scrutinized. Making the present Chi chi also a bit more relevant, with her having to reconsider her actions and even helping the future Chi Chi fix things with her sons. I don't Know maybe I'm trippin but I felt like there was potential, especially since Goku Black was good but next the second Zamasu sucked.
4:25 I’ll say this, Gohan could’ve been introduced into the zamasu mix if he used Zuno more properly. But honestly goten imo would’ve been way cooler than it being Goku
The History of Trunks hot take wasn’t confusing at all to me personally. They were basically saying, we see Goku defeat Mecha Frieza, we see the Z-Fighters have to fight androids 17 and 18 (we also would’ve actually witnessed Goku’s death). We as an audience watch the Z fighters get massacred. Then time skip to Trunks, now a kid, we get to see future Gohan. We see them train, fight the androids. We see Future Gohan die. Then when all hope seems lost, Bulma finishes the Time Machine. Trunks, the character we’ve been following for multiple chapters as he went through all this trauma, goes back in time. He kills Frieza because Goku isn’t showing up in time. And we get to see Trunks save the future. So instead of us watching the History of Trunks movie after, it’s how we START the arc. But more fleshed out. I think it’s a W take. Would’ve made the whole arc feel even darker and would have elevated Trunks and Gohan as characters while we watch the story unfold naturally.
6:09 what he is saying is that the History of Trunks special should've been shown first then the events of the android saga should happen, essentially he is saying let's just remove the whole mystery of who Trunks is at the start.
My hot take(s)- Kid buu is the strongest at least via anime Dbs is Heavily downplayed via Powerscaling and storytelling Jiren has a Generic backstory BUT its told in a way that is decent or even good if you read what the directors say about him Fusion reborn is the best dbz movie Goku and Luffy are literally the same character one piece and Dbz are Equal (imho) as an Anime to enjoy Many Of the Characters solo many other MCs in anime/Shonen Dbs hero wasnt as bad as yall say it was Not mid it was just idk kinda lacking (could've been better) but not bad. Gohans beast mode is pretty cool as a transformation it's literally his rage In a form his Potential in a form. Its cool asf. Dbz even though everybody has it as their #1 is still really underrated a lot of people still dont give it enough credit
ok so hear me out im not exactly a gohan fan but by the time we got ultimate gohan, all the pieces we had to make gohan the mc were kinda already there, sure it would involve tweaking the end of the buu saga but realistically, we couldve had a fire buu saga ending with the characters and circumstances that were available. it couldve also led into a character development were gohan would be like "yeah i gotta keep training" while also having characters like goten and trunks to take up the role that kid gohan played. and while i dont really mess with gohan as much as other people do, i genuinly did like the whole superhero gimmick it brought back the goofy nonsense that was the essence of db.
Sage I appreciate ur contribution to holding down the dbz community rn✊🏽✊🏽✊🏽love brother 🤟🏽🔥🖤keep f*ckin going this dbz disrespect needs to stop it will never lead the big 3 EVER IDC ITS THE GOAT OG
Hot Take: Broly is going to be the edited super sayian 4. The Easter egg was already introduced in the movie. What if he masters his rage and boom 🤷🏽♂️
6:40 i think they meant we see Goku kill Freeza and Cold, he dies to the virus, the Androids appear killing everyone except Gohan Bulma and Trunks, we see them fight Gohan, Gohan dies and THEN they reveal the time machine and goes back to before Goku la ds on Earth
I feel like Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan. Cause when Goku brings the idea up Vegeta dismisses it for the Spirit Bomb. To me that means neither of them think Gohan and Gotenks are in a different league than kid Buu.
Gohan should’ve been the main character in terms of the living side of dragon ball. And the other half of the series should’ve been Goku having sick ass adventures in otherworld and he meets all kinds of opponents. So Goku stays dead and is a main character with Gohan being the next generation of Earth. (Tori was gearing towards that from the beginning tbh)
😂😂 aye you said it best super and gt has good concepts poor execution but here a good hot take If you remove the moves from super it's the exact same. 1st tournament arc ass with good moments same as super 17 Goku black and Baby best arcs TOP and shadow dragon's both boring and to drawn-out with good moments best fighting being goku vs jiren up to ui omen and ssj4 vs nova and ice
yeah tfs absolutely are the sole reason the “goku is a terrible father” take even exists, its never even been hinted at in the real series, its exclusively dbza where goku being a bad dad is ever a thing, but people act like its canon. might just be a result of people only watching dbza and pretending they watched the real series 🤷🏻♂️
90% of the cast didn’t even trust vegeta during the cell saga and just needed him because no one was strong enough ( excluding piccolo and goku ) to do anything against him or the androids still and making vegeta a frieza 2.0 that’s just gets stronger and comes back to get revenge would be horrible cuz we all know he isn’t just gonna go live him life normally 😂
Thought the grand priest was evil lowkey the way he projecting his voice in an angrily manner and some angels were smiling when the universes got erased
when it comes to chi chi, gohan did not like fighting, and when you see adult gohan you know just how much he loves his studies. then goten comes around, and chi chi is literally sparring with this man because goten loves fighting. people only get mad at chi chi because THEY want gohan to be a fighter, but gohan himself does not want to be.
How does Ultimate Gohan beat the brakes off Kid Buu when Kid Buu has hax regeneration, infinite stamina, and could absorb people if he wanted too seeing as he did the same to a Supreme Kai to become Super Buu? Sure, he doesn't lose power at the rate SSJ3 Goku does, but he still doesn't have a reliable kill move against him and is going to take damage that'll add up as the fight goes on.
What? People can't ask for more earthling action moments in current day? Just "watch og dragonball"? Some fans are honestly bored of seeing saiyan only content. Make a series on the side or something to give the earthlings more screentime.
I have to heavily disagree with Sages take on gohan being the “goku black” wouldnt make sense. It would arguable make MORE sense. All it would have took was Zamasu doing 2 seconds of research on how goku got as strong as he did to see gohans potential as he was a huge part of each fight that goku got his power ups from. It’s not like the Kai’s don’t know buu is a thing.
Buu with everyone abdorbed would have crazy power AND piccolo + gohan intelegence. He would divide himself into a billion little cells and hide them all around the ring and keep respawning from them. Hed win through the timer if not outright
1:00 hi there. Wanted to clarify the filler episode take. Not saying I wanna see nothing but backstory, nor am i saying do every universe. Just do luke the most popular ones for life after tournament of power arc. But definitely aeeing where u coming from tho.
honestly I liked Jiren not so much for his power but the fact that for the first time in the dragon ball franchise the antagonist of the arc was actually a good guy while he may have been a bit extreme about his beliefs jiren was still a hero in his universe hell props to the manga for adding in the bit how Jiren didn't want to go to the TOP because he wasn't big on being responsible for wiping out universes I just found the ideal that Jrien and the pride troopers being these galactic hero's are also the enemy of our main protagonist group
Great video, And for the love of god you people need to stop saying gohan needs to be the main character Cause if he was the main character, Then Dragon ball will be more like boruto, Only ten times worse
Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan and Gohan, but only in the *anime.* Goku directly fights Gohan in Buuhan's body and states that this Gohan has equal power to the original. Goku inside of Buuhan is weaker than he is in the outside world, and didn't even require SSJ3 to beat this Gohan. In the anime and all the other material outside of it, it's stated multiple times over that Kid Buu is the strongest version of Buu. So basically, both Goku and Kid Buu received insane buffs in the anime that are nonsensical, but pretty much have to be accepted. This pretty much invalidates any of the statements from Goku that make him appear weaker than the prior forms of Buu as well because this is only true for the Goku of that specific timeframe. Kid Buu was also proven to just be playing around with Goku during their fight, so take that as you will.
in terms of popularity of takes, cell saga being the best in z is the single coldest take known to humanity, apart from “goku is the strongest in the series” 😂😂
6:18 I think what he means is, we see the future timeline as the main timeline and then we see all of that stuff that happened in the Future special, and then we follow trunks's adventure in the Future timeline. We see Trunks then GO BACK and ask for help and then the series continues as normal, I hope that breaks it down for you a little bit 8:32 I think he's saying Super is better than Og and Gt, but not Z. Which I disagree but opinions be opinions
bet but again that’d be VERY confusing in hindsight to snap to a different timeline & play it out just to then go back. Even more confusing or just deflating if you play things as normal. If you have Goku beat frieza & die, then androids wipe everyone out, just would kinda ruin a lot of things perception wise. that wouldn’t be “our Z fighters” or “our original universe” even if it was easier to track 😂
@@TSO_Sage true, can't deny it would be interesting to see though, but still, I perfer the normal way things played out As normal as normal gets for dragon ball at least
4:20 that evil Gohan not being realistic take is horrible because zamasu literally ask the god of knowledge everything there is to kno about goku, wich i assume includeds his family, howelse could u explain zamasu finding and killing chichi and goten. If he could find thm he could've found Gohan.
Even as someone whos favorite, ride or die character is gohan, he would not work as well as the main character of dragon ball, hell the fact that toriyama at least tried to make it work and went back because he knew gohan better than anyone is awesome and one of the reasons why he's the G.O.A.T. I think anyone that thinks gohan should have been the mc should go watch totally not marks review of the dbz series. He explains in great detail who gohan is and why hes not really meant for the role of mc in a series like this.
😬😬😬 idk man that superhero hot take is kinda accurate.....the animation was 🔥 but the fights wasnt hyped especially cell max and beast Gohan was just a play on ssj2 nostalgia Out of the 4 movies broly 1st BOG 2 RF 3 superhero dead last
That’s just boring man, the plot works with having both zamasu’s work together that’s why xeno goku black is boring as hell as compared to the canon one, that nigga is edgelord the character
6:00 no honestly, I don't like the Abridged argument, because half of this damn community can't even comprehend why a Senzu bean was thrown. Straight up, I've seen way too many instances of people blatantly getting FACTS wrong. Facts that are present in Abridged AND canon. I don't wanna hear shit about Abridged harping any fan confusion outside of those who have only seen Abridged. Goku isn't even a great argument because it is obviously played up, and whether you like it or not, Z and Super are both responsible for slowly breaking Goku's character apart. That is, if you believe it is broken apart. Because if you do, it's not just Super that is to blame. Regardless, my point is that Abridged is not going to be responsible for the falsehoods that people have about Dragon Ball; that's something people have been misinterpreting since canon. The only thing Abridged could possibly do is reaffirm the argument in some peoples' minds, which is hardly a contribution.
@@TSO_Sage nah you got goku going through each stage of super sayain even using god plus goku learning how to use UI better to cause damage and not to mention when goku slides across her beam with the kamehama was one of the cleanest ways to dead a fight in dragon ball history. Goku and kefla’s fight is probably one of the most underrated fight in dragon ball if not just super and it’s mostly because people don’t like kefla People also forget that this fight also brought back a lot of viewers for super after jirin
@@ef-jkota3611 I wouldn’t say it’s 2 separate fights cause it all happened during the same fight but Ig if u count when they fuse another fight then Ig ur right but it still doesn’t change much about my point plus I reckon that fight has if not the best but one of the best use of kamehamha in the series. My top 3 fights would be goku vs broly, piccolo vs 17, goku vs kefla if we’re saying the point before and after they fuse are two different fights then I would say I like before the kefla fuse better than after
About the crybaby trunks thing we’re shown that trunks gets shit done when he has the power to do it aka killing cell & wiping out both dabura & babidi
I like all the series, and this whole proxy war between OG Fans, Z fans, GT fans, and super fans. We just need to agree to disagree, and enjoy what you enjoy. I mean super canonicity is weird cause of the movies, manga, Prequel movies, and it doesnt help half of it like dirt. And a lot of these problems people complain about in all these series started in Z.
why to this day people think that kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan when ss3 Goku wasn't able to keep up with BASE SUPER BUU, and he is able to keep up with KID BUU. kid Buu is the most dangerous and crazy, but Buuhan is stronger and my opinion on is this. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't care IF it is a filler or not (not sure if it was), there is NO WAY kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan. I agree with that comment around 2 minutes. Again, it's my opinion
I don't blame TFS themselves for the flanderization of characters, I blame the fans and writers who couldn't tell the difference between DBZ and DBZA. Just like Sage said, they begin all their videos with "this is a fan made parody," yet way, way too many people just straight up forgot that those were joke versions of the characters
Some of these hot takes really make the joke "Dragon Ball fans have never seen Dragon Ball" not seem like a joke, that Vegeta hot take was wild
Alot of ppl have just played the story in the games lol
@@yonathanafrewki2161 Or they watched it through shorts/YT clips
I've read and watched the show. That was me.
@@waluigijalapeno2080You couldn't be more wrong
@@bungbananaman ain't no fucking way lol
I understand what the future Trunks take but the original is better simply due to the hypothetical feeling like a cheap cop out and people already exaggerate the narrative that death doesn't matter.
THANK YOU
For the future trunks take: I understand his take. essentially to say hell with the special, start the cell saga off with trunks & the z fighters losing to the androids , and then have trunks go back.
my whole point is/would be that would be VERYYY deflating to the series. To essentially see all our fav characters die & then a consolation of alternate versions of those characters getting a 2nd chance, is vastly different than portraying our current universe as one that is affected by time travel & another one wasn’t lucky. Essentially “our universe loses & now we’re in a fake one” vibes vs “our universe was going to lose if it wasn’t for time travel”
Idk if I’m saying that the perfect way but I’m confident y’all understand unless you don’t want to 😂 lmao point is I def still disagree
Btw the guy that said “dbs is better than db, dbgt” he is talking about og dragon ball with kid goku, not dbz
@@astronoman008 literally say in the clip “to be fair he’s prolly talking just og Dragonball because he never even typed a Z”
I don’t necessarily disagree but that’s kinda what happens regardless we are just on the other side of it from jump. The Future Timeline is the original timeline we see things post Trunks changing things so we already are seeing another version of the cast get a 2nd chance
My hot take:
A lot of “what if” scenarios that we call stupid would have been defended by the same people slandering them if they were simply the canon. 🤷🏾♂️
Probably not that hot of a take. There are so many people that are quick to yell "filler" or "not canon" in scenarios that don't even require canonicity to be in the argument. Maybe people don't recognize this as an issue because they haven't thought about it, though that wouldn't be too surprising either.
How to get Gohan Black:
Zamasu, not being dumb, asks the All-Knowing guy better questions such as "Is there a better body change candidate than Goku?" or "Who among Goku's allies would be threats to my plan?" etc. etc. This leads to learning about Gohan and his massive growth potential, proceeding to ask for more info on him, finding out about how he was the strongest of the Z fighters during the late/end of Buu Saga, and how swapping bodies to this Gohan gives him a good opportunity to sneak kill Shin, thus killing Beerus. There's no one left in that part of the timeline to stop him, so he can continue with his Zero Mortals plan in Gohan's body that can reach higher levels of power than Goku.
It's doable. Unlikely given that Zamasu's whole issue is because of seeing Goku's god power and losing to him, but doable.
not only that, but Gohan is trained by the old kaioshin too and he is the strongest pre BoG (since Goku was busy being a family man and a farmer at the time)
Goku had power leagues above Gohan by that point and Zamasu damn sure wasn't going to put in the effort to exploit the potential through proper training since he clearly didn't bother doing so with Goku's (He was weaker than Goku and couldn't even transform their first fight), so taking Goku's was the best option for him in the end.
@NeonSwordsManFangattack He never transformed because he literally had nobody that strong to fight. Yeah, trunks transformed but still get washed by Goku Black. Once he started fighting Goku/Vegeta, he started enjoying the whole thing more so what're you talking about?,
Me personally would’ve said that Frieza is better body swap than Gohan if he asked Zuno but maybe it’s only for alive people who knows
@@NeonSwordsManFangattack
By the end of the Buu arc, Ultimate Gohan was the strongest fighter. The closest Goku could get to him was with SSJ3, which as we know, loses power FAST. Even if it were stronger than Ult Gohan, that's only going to last for a few minutes and cripple him.
He doesn't need to train to exploit Gohan's potential. He can just do what he did as Goku Black. Partner with another version of himself, get into fights that cause him to get harmed, then call his double in for healing to exploit Zenkai. And given how triggered Zamasu gets when pissed off, that'll liable to interact well with Gohan's rage boosts and give him even more power.
Hot take: Resurrection F makes no in-universe sense. Frieza got chopped up by Trunks and remained in Hell, wrapped up in a cocoon for 9 years. There is no way that he got wished back to life, trained with a FRIEZA FORCE SOLDIER for 4 months, and became stronger than a Super Saiyan 3.
TL;DR - Frieza being as strong as he is in the movie is bullshit.
i honestly agree because sure while his potential should be high just take the the timeskip from the cell saga buu saga for example
I personally disagree because thinking about it, without training a day in his life he had a power level of 530k and this was a form he used to SUPPRESS HIS POWER it’s just wild that he’s at 120m (give or take a bit since he did get injured by the spirit bomb and Super Saiyan Goku) without any training
We’ve seen what training does for people like Gohan in the Cell Saga so imagine that potential but on steroids on steroids and I think Frieza’s large power jumps are reasonable
@@Swagsire_except… that quality of frieza’s race was retconned FOR THE PURPOSE of Golden Frieza. Think about it, if Frieza can get that strong that quick, and every Frieza race can do it, why was Beerus so lackadaisical about destroying them? Why would whis keep his word and actually resurrect him after TOP. Some elaborate training ritual for Goku/vegeta?? Just cuz they justify it doesn’t mean it’s not lame. Out of all legacy Dbz villains to bring back and quickly make them strong, Cell actually fits much better. He could theoretically keep blowing himself up abusing Zenkai boosts. You could even say he got stronger than He’ll, if Cell’s Hell was constantly getting packed up by Gohan. He has piccolo genes, piccolo can get stronger thru meditation alone. What if he was in a constant battle with someone he could never beat, unknowingly getting stronger and stronger. Idk, makes more sense to me than just making shit up about Frieza.
Cold take
@@kennethfocarino7075 fair point however… Frieza (I believe anyway) was stated to be a mutant so his insane power is something wouldn’t be shared by others in his race at his age. I personally believe Whis reviving Frieza was a form of training for Goku and Vegeta (didn’t work out so well) but nonetheless it will make them get stronger most likely. Also I agree with Cell being a good pick, I doubt he would be as willing to comply as Frieza since he would be on the team of Gohan who made him crashout HARD after regurgitating #18 while Frieza always had plans to be ruling the universe again while Cell’s motivation would probably be something along the lines of “I want to fight you again” but after the tournament he gets obliterated so dastardly he wouldn’t get the chance again. Also, self inflicted harm doesn’t trigger zenkais so I’m pretty sure the Super Perfect Cell power boost came from the beat down from Gohan originally. Finally, Cell’s “down there place” might not be Gohan beating him again and again, like it wasn’t for Frieza. It’s really weird since there is a chance you’re correct but looking at his character I’d honestly say it’s just somewhere where he can’t fight anybody strong, get stronger and just generally gets reminded of his imperfection. And IF his “down there place” was infact Gohan beating him up time and time again there is NO WAY he would’ve agreed to be put on the team with Gohan as team leader.
22:30 Gohan would still have to go to Namek because the Earth dragon balls would only be able to revive Yamcha, Piccolo, and Future Trunks as they were never revived by Shenron
I loved the start of ssj4 Gogeta’s fight. It was just a showcasing of peak power like how the dude had to slow down his frames for us and omega to see him attack omega. Most swag man for sure
Vegito got The same way to nerf Ssj 4 Gogeta. I’ll always be pissed about both of those.
@@thedevilsleuticesame. They did my boys dirty
Gohan is cool, but he isn’t interesting or funny enough to be the main character of a Toriyama story.
He is literally more human than Goku.
And Goku is boring,thats his whole thing.He is NOT more interesting than Gohan.
And get ready cause without Toriyama,things are changing
@@newhybrid101whatever makes money we’ll see more of. Personally, a guy who only stands on business when others get bullied isn’t it for me. He’s too reactive. Characters like Goku and Vegeta seize the plot. Goku’s drive, charisma, battle genius, smiling in the face of adversity, unshakable will, and overall life philosophy are inspirations to everyone. That’s why he’s the most popular. 🤷 Goku can replaced, but it won’t be by Copehan.
Cap gohan has allways has been more interesting ability’s wise,personality wise
Right. Cause as a writer he fits a Spider-Man archetype perfectly. But it’s not what Toriyama wants
@@dominiquerobinson8888 great analogy
The thing about Gohan being the main character, he'd have to either be a *different* kind of character or Dragon Ball would have to turn into a different kind of story, which it kinda did at the start of the Buu saga I guess. He'd have to be more like his future self in Trunk's timeline because normal Gohan just isn't driven to fight like that.
Jesus loves you AMEN🙏
Amen🙏🏾
Amen
Amen 🙏
Amen
Amen 🙏
I never wanted Gohan to be the main character. He simply did not have what Goku has that made the show enjoyable. With Gohan sure you have a badass character with dope writing possibly but he’s also a greater prodigy than Goku and so seeing him struggle, overcome, train, and etc are not as rewarding as with Goku.
Plus Goku and Vegetas dynamic by the buu saga is just goated. So since the z fighters have been pushed to the side by the cell saga already, just having Gohan alone is not as enjoyable as Vegeta and Goku unless you manufacture a rival/partner like piccolo or something. I think Gohans arc served it’s purpose and that’s it.
Goku literally has nothing.
He just is an archetypal character that embodies Dragon Ball.
He is tied to it but he doesn't bring anything to it.
He is the show as one person.
Goku is liked cause people like Dragon Ball
They dont like Dragon Ball cause of Goku
@@newhybrid101 Actually they do. At least originally before super… Goku, like Superman stood for an example of the ultimate hero. He isn’t “an archetype” he is THE archetype that Naruto, luffy, and the other mcs stem from. Put respect on Gokus name.
7:00 Part of the appeal with the Cell/Android Saga was the many mysteries surrounding it. We were given a bit of information from a mysterious stranger that could achieve a legend that only one person could achieve at that point. With that we are given questions:
1.) Just how strong are they?
2.) Will the medicine actually help Goku?
3.) Should we actually believe this stranger or is this a trap?
4.) Will our heroes actually be prepared for these androids?
Having History of Trunks as actual episodes before the saga technically begins kinda negates these mysteries and the fake outs like when Gero and 19 show up, having Trunks be like, "Bruh, you trippin'?" causes your heart to drop cause you realize, "Oh crap, if these aren't the androids, where _are_ they?"
Yea it answers half of the questions and kills the suspense that we got from not knowing what was actually happening in the future timeline
Did the guy who said Zamasu should've stole Gohan's body forget why he stole Goku's body in the first place?
tbf he did it only cuz he didnt know potential of gohan (he took goku's body to get stronger for his plan cuz he saw ssb kaioken on god tube)
My biggest issue with Jiren is that he's characterized by the fact that he believes solely in his own strength. He's got no regard for trust, friendship or comradery. That's his character arc. All good there. No issues with that. But, tell me why a guy who doesn't believe in teamwork or comradery would choose to be part of a goddamn superhero team. Like, at least as far as the anime goes, it really does kinda seem like the writers didn't know what his deal was until the very end
He wants to fight strong fighters
@@CameronClark-rt7dm He doesn't really need to be part of a superhero team to do that tho, especially if he thinks that his teammates would actively slow him down
@@ML1399TheyStoleMyName Nah he doesn’t know the strength of other universes so it makes sense for him to do that. That’s a once in a lifetime chance.
@@CameronClark-rt7dm I don't mean specifically for the tournament, I mean in general. Jiren was a Pride Trooper before the tournament was even announced, which means he would have been choosing to be part of a team before he knew about that opportunity and threat
@@ML1399TheyStoleMyName Oh yeah I don’t know then.
Said this before but Black Goku arc shouldn't have had Zamasu but a literal alternate Timeline evil kakorott who didn't hit his head and still went through the events of the series.
Imagine how crazy it would've been if that was actually Goku with a similar personality and experiences, but just inherently evil and how it would contrast with our Goku
Super may have its issue but overall I say it’s still good
Becuz the arguments for the most part people apply to super can apply for Z tbh
Kid Buu is weird to scale now honestly. Like back in the day I would agree Buutenks and above were stronger. But then you have the Moro arc where they said the Dai Kaioshin's power was split between fat Buu and kid buu 😂
that was stated in the dbz manga too but he couldn't you use it because he never train to
So... Kid Buu vs Fat Buu+Piccolo+Gotenks SSJ3... who is stronger?
Gotta disagree with the Buu thing, hypothetically if he absorbed people they wouldn't be dead and he gains some level of their intelligence as shown when he absorbed piccolo and his healing abilities would pretty much allow him to keep everyone around their peak if he's able to get to them and even in if the team were to get close to losing or someones about to be eliminated he could just end up absorbing them and still making use of their power, only thing I do think could happen is Buu getting blitzed by jiren or toppo after realizing his abilities and how busted they are
7:21 Couldn't be bothered to find this one's actual starting point, but he's saying that he wishes that the story continued from the original/Future Trunks timeline with no Trunks interruptions, everything in History Of Trunks plays out, and we see Future Trunks get into the time machine, and then it's pretty much just normal from there. Neat idea, feel like that would mess up pacing a little bit but a neat idea
To phrase it better, it goes Goku kills Frieza like in the F.T. timeline > Goku dies > androids get the squadwipe > Trunks goes back in time > Trunks kills Frieza > everything plays out as normal
6:59 I think he meant to say that we see the future timeline and then the creation of the time machine and Trunks going back in time and cut to the arc as we know it.
I feel like one thing TFS did was showcase how much truth "Dragon Ball fans don't watch the show" has. Them being able to construe the perspective of some characters is purely the fault of the people who leave a video that starts with "this is a fan based PARODY" thinking anything said is a one to one showcase of the source material. This is like thinking Mario hates other gaming characters or is an outright violent person because they saw the Flashgitz video.
Filler is canonical to the version that the filler is with. All DBS filler is canon to the DBS Anime specifically
Toriyama even refers to all Toei projects as a separate timeline/dimension a while ago. Making the movies, filler, GT, Heroes, video games all canon in their own timelines
@@PurpleEyedMintbesides the movie that shall not be named
Gohan is my favourite db character so seeing him as the mc would be cool but I feel like then it would turn into either a slice of life w Gohan at high school which I’m NOT TRYING TO WATCH or freaking Sailor Moon where he’s a schoolboy in the day and a superhero in the night and I’m NOT TRYING TO WATCH THAT EITHER
Goku as the mc is just cool because his main job is fighting guys and not studying which bugs are venomous or toxic😭
that android thing was i think.
more like showing goku fighting frieza and his dad, then later die of his sickness, and the z fighters fighting but slowly losing and dying off to the androids and trunks rising up as a saiyan to challenge the androids in the ruined future, getting his ass beat in the process, up until the point where trunks gets in that time machine.
seeing how hopeless everything got firsthand and how everyone from piccolo and krillen, to vegeta and gohan all dying in front of us, it's a weirdly dark thing to do in dragon ball, but MIGHT work if framed properly
One thing i hate about db fans is that they dont watch/read the series like your suppossed to then rant over being bad,they either dont read the manga and only watch the anime,with the wrong sub or dub and to add to that they dont event watch the entire anime they either start on z skipping the og or like people are doing rn skipping both og and z to watch from dbza to super.*sigh* sorry for the long rant 😅
I would be happy to see the other universes back story’s only as a different series instead of filler, kinda like how Star Wars has Tales of the Jedi to tell the backstory of Jedi while not interrupting the current timeline (even though the current timelines story is technically over already but you get the point)
The idea was that instead of seeing the main timeline first. We see everyone die first, and then Trunks goes back in time. The story isn’t different. We just see the og timeline first and then see Trunks go back in time to do what he does normally. His actions don’t change, the arc doesn’t change.
The mystery of Trunks just showing up was crazy though
so visually show the audience that the universe they fw is wiped & that their main timeline going forth is now a backup… I don’t think that’s a great move but also kinda unnecessary. we’d just see vastly stronger androids have drawn fights just cuz imo
@@TSO_Sage that’s the case already though. This timeline we are currently following is the alt one Trunks makes. The hypothetical doesn’t change that. I don’t see the problem. The androids were weaker in the og timeline, this hypothetical isn’t changing that either. Barely anything is being changed in this hypothetical. Including the androids. Any fight we have seen in Z is still here, and fights aren’t being added. Power levels don’t change. I agree that it’s unnecessary but I feel like you’re making it sound worse than it is. No offense.
@@shadowsansvii8715 i knew u we’re gonna say that lmao there’s a MAJOR difference in the timeline were in being deleted & visually seeing trunks meet new & alive versions of the characters
vs trunks popping up in the timeline were already familiar with. Also now that I think about it, it’s VERY weird to have trunks essentially be MC, take an insane backseat, just to then be MC again when he goes back to his timeline, but then we stay in the new alternate timeline. all for the sake of seeing tragedy that can only be dragged on for so long anyway, the androids are insanely strong in comparison to Z fighters who didn’t see them coming. realistically everyone is one shot so the “fights” y’all want to see aren’t really gonna be that good 😂
@@TSO_Sage fair enough
The trunks take around 7:30 is showing the future trunks timeline and only continue the original timeline by the time trunks goes into the time machine, showing what makes them different and stuff.
Idk buus healing in the TOP is definitely a game changer
not denying that. but again as I said, the more you guys sice & op majin buu, the more likely jiren would just eliminate buu himself earlier on ESPECIALLY if he confronted someone from U11
Buu’s ability alone definitely makes him Public Enemy #2. (Goku is #1) I’d wager that he’d be one of the first five people eliminated after ripping one too many allies out of the jaws of defeat by giving them the second wind.
His other abilities are also incredibly dangerous and put a target on his back. however, I don’t really believe he would ever absorb people or turn them into chocolate ever again because of what Mr. Satan told him.
I THINK the trunks idea was to show the bad future backstory (maybe not showing how the androids look like), then the trunks special and then showing trunks get to killing mecha frieza and from there we continue the story like normal
It would mostly be a change in order but i still don't like it
7:19
What hes saying is we first see the entire Original timeline of what happens uptil future trunks is beaten up where he goes back that way we see what has happened before this would make the appearance of 19&20 Extremely more Significant confusing the viewers to why these androids showed up and cause anticipation for 17&18 and finally the viewers being surprised at the fact they are so basically we see what had happened and then the changed history like in a classic anime scene where a character foresees his death dies and then we realize that hasnt happened yet and he prevents it.
Ive seen this approach personally in other anime some of my favs and it works Like a charm
I think if written better cell saga can be the best. I think the transformations on the villains and z fighters sides weee a bit messy but I know during the original manga run the editors were full on with Akira Toriyama making changes and having a strict deadline I think now he would of paced the cell transformations better and gave us a better understanding of the ascended forms.
Gohan being the main character never would work without changing who Gohan actually is. The people pushing that want Gohan to be something he is not
Gohan could definitely be a main character. Toriyama just wanted to keep it as Goku. Cause he’s basically like Spider-Man
@dominiquerobinson8888 Gohan would not work for the story that dragon ball is. Gohan is too serious minded. A character like Gohan could work for a different story though
@@RedMoonLoop Yea but he doesn’t work for Dragonball because he’s simply not goku. Cause Gohan isn’t really that serious especially in the Buu saga. In the beginning he acts kinda goofy and makes jokes, doesn’t take training seriously, and at the end isn’t like a Future trunks who tries to finish the job quick.
22:07
Tbh, if Cell takes out the others first(really Piccolo), before Goku, Gohan goes SSJ2 before Cell even gets to Goku.
@19:00 no facts especially Krillin, Piccolo and Tien they NEVER trusted vegeta at first
He’s called Super Buu with Gohan absorbed
Gohan woul have beaten the breaks off Buu but he would have found a way to loose anyway.
I would watch a spin off of Gohan basically being a power ranger.
Lmao I was ready to comment about that last take but u corrected it by remembering dende
TLDR: jumping cell would have been viable if they had planned for it, or even if they ran a similar scheme as on namek vs frieza. The thing that keeps it from happening in story is the characterization
I don’t think the “jumping cell” plan is as bad as stated for a couple reasons. First the super saiyans at least (and probably piccolo as well, certainly with special beam cannon) at least damage cell with charged ki attacks like vegeta showed during the beam struggle, where cell was stronger than the start of the tournament. He even would have killed cell if final flash had landed clean, though cell would never let that happen, certainly not again. At a minimum have them back court while gohan and goku duo. Secondly, we saw successful assists with bigger gaps in power on namek. The issue is the characters wouldn’t actually do any of this. As far as “this is how they best could have protected earth” I think it’s right, but it’s not very dragon ball z, at least post namek.
For the Goten black thing you could of gotten creative with it, like maybe Goten was actually born in the future timeline. Does it make sense no but time travel shenanigans are already used to explain weird shit. Let's say he was never acknowledged by Gohan or Trunks, Gohan because he was never home due to stressing over the androids and Trunks being trained by Gohan. You'd say well why wouldn't Chi chi tell Gohan, because she's a mother who's always been obsessed with giving her kids a life outside of fighting so they can be successful and that's in a more successful timeline. In Trunk's future everyone is dead so it would make perfect sense if Chi chi would go to extreme lengths to really make sure Goten also didn't fall into that life, out of fear she would lose him too. So you'd have a Goten who never received any attention form his older brother give him a motivation around that, have him actually be educated on the z fighters history and the traits of the saiyan's that realistically are often times their downfall. Give him some motivation around that, with his perspective being extremely skewed on what it means to be a saiyan, martial artist and a son family member. The story could have honestly been great, because it means we don't just have to receive an answer from Goten black in regard to those questions but also Goten. Hell you could even give Chi chi some character development with her actions being tied to everything, her overprotective nature being scrutinized. Making the present Chi chi also a bit more relevant, with her having to reconsider her actions and even helping the future Chi Chi fix things with her sons. I don't Know maybe I'm trippin but I felt like there was potential, especially since Goku Black was good but next the second Zamasu sucked.
4:25 I’ll say this, Gohan could’ve been introduced into the zamasu mix if he used Zuno more properly. But honestly goten imo would’ve been way cooler than it being Goku
The History of Trunks hot take wasn’t confusing at all to me personally. They were basically saying, we see Goku defeat Mecha Frieza, we see the Z-Fighters have to fight androids 17 and 18 (we also would’ve actually witnessed Goku’s death). We as an audience watch the Z fighters get massacred. Then time skip to Trunks, now a kid, we get to see future Gohan. We see them train, fight the androids. We see Future Gohan die. Then when all hope seems lost, Bulma finishes the Time Machine. Trunks, the character we’ve been following for multiple chapters as he went through all this trauma, goes back in time. He kills Frieza because Goku isn’t showing up in time. And we get to see Trunks save the future. So instead of us watching the History of Trunks movie after, it’s how we START the arc. But more fleshed out.
I think it’s a W take. Would’ve made the whole arc feel even darker and would have elevated Trunks and Gohan as characters while we watch the story unfold naturally.
6:09 what he is saying is that the History of Trunks special should've been shown first then the events of the android saga should happen, essentially he is saying let's just remove the whole mystery of who Trunks is at the start.
To me, Gohan and Goku are the MC of DBZ .
My hot take(s)- Kid buu is the strongest at least via anime
Dbs is Heavily downplayed via Powerscaling and storytelling
Jiren has a Generic backstory BUT its told in a way that is decent or even good if you read what the directors say about him
Fusion reborn is the best dbz movie
Goku and Luffy are literally the same character one piece and Dbz are Equal (imho) as an Anime to enjoy
Many Of the Characters solo many other MCs in anime/Shonen
Dbs hero wasnt as bad as yall say it was Not mid it was just idk kinda lacking (could've been better) but not bad.
Gohans beast mode is pretty cool as a transformation it's literally his rage In a form his Potential in a form. Its cool asf.
Dbz even though everybody has it as their #1 is still really underrated a lot of people still dont give it enough credit
ok so hear me out im not exactly a gohan fan but by the time we got ultimate gohan, all the pieces we had to make gohan the mc were kinda already there, sure it would involve tweaking the end of the buu saga but realistically, we couldve had a fire buu saga ending with the characters and circumstances that were available. it couldve also led into a character development were gohan would be like "yeah i gotta keep training" while also having characters like goten and trunks to take up the role that kid gohan played. and while i dont really mess with gohan as much as other people do, i genuinly did like the whole superhero gimmick it brought back the goofy nonsense that was the essence of db.
Sage I appreciate ur contribution to holding down the dbz community rn✊🏽✊🏽✊🏽love brother 🤟🏽🔥🖤keep f*ckin going this dbz disrespect needs to stop it will never lead the big 3 EVER IDC ITS THE GOAT OG
Kid Buu held back against everyone this should be common knowledge
Damn not y’all cooking me😂😂😂
I never switched up i always thought jiren was wack
Hot Take: Broly is going to be the edited super sayian 4. The Easter egg was already introduced in the movie. What if he masters his rage and boom 🤷🏽♂️
Tbh I agree with the dude on the buu one, buu would have made top a wash since he can just heal people
Cell saga is the most hyped, but as you said storytelling Namek saga, and best pacing Saiyan saga
14:43 Trunks didn’t run away from his problems, the androids beat him into making better decisions. This manz was against time traveling at first.
6:40 i think they meant we see Goku kill Freeza and Cold, he dies to the virus, the Androids appear killing everyone except Gohan Bulma and Trunks, we see them fight Gohan, Gohan dies and THEN they reveal the time machine and goes back to before Goku la ds on Earth
Super should have jus been a piccolo movie. Running through the same story with Gohan in an even more rushed format was dumb
I feel like Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan. Cause when Goku brings the idea up Vegeta dismisses it for the Spirit Bomb. To me that means neither of them think Gohan and Gotenks are in a different league than kid Buu.
This guy is following the narrative!
Wait people didn't know Jiren was clowned on the second his backstory got outed?
Gohan should’ve been the main character in terms of the living side of dragon ball. And the other half of the series should’ve been Goku having sick ass adventures in otherworld and he meets all kinds of opponents. So Goku stays dead and is a main character with Gohan being the next generation of Earth. (Tori was gearing towards that from the beginning tbh)
bro i gotta assume half these takes are ingenuine as hell, they just wanna make the vid by saying some outlandish shit 😂
😂😂 aye you said it best super and gt has good concepts poor execution but here a good hot take
If you remove the moves from super it's the exact same. 1st tournament arc ass with good moments same as super 17
Goku black and Baby best arcs
TOP and shadow dragon's both boring and to drawn-out with good moments best fighting being goku vs jiren up to ui omen and ssj4 vs nova and ice
18:58 pretty sure he meant staying dead on names and never coming back to the series
Which is even worse because Vegeta is such an integral part of the series.
yeah tfs absolutely are the sole reason the “goku is a terrible father” take even exists, its never even been hinted at in the real series, its exclusively dbza where goku being a bad dad is ever a thing, but people act like its canon. might just be a result of people only watching dbza and pretending they watched the real series 🤷🏻♂️
Here’s my hot take, my all time favorite ark is the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
90% of the cast didn’t even trust vegeta during the cell saga and just needed him because no one was strong enough ( excluding piccolo and goku ) to do anything against him or the androids still and making vegeta a frieza 2.0 that’s just gets stronger and comes back to get revenge would be horrible cuz we all know he isn’t just gonna go live him life normally 😂
Thought the grand priest was evil lowkey the way he projecting his voice in an angrily manner and some angels were smiling when the universes got erased
Buu has healing magic that alone gets him above freeza
when it comes to chi chi, gohan did not like fighting, and when you see adult gohan you know just how much he loves his studies. then goten comes around, and chi chi is literally sparring with this man because goten loves fighting. people only get mad at chi chi because THEY want gohan to be a fighter, but gohan himself does not want to be.
Exactly even future gohan wanted to be a scholar even though he was forced to fight to protect Bulma and trunks
How does Ultimate Gohan beat the brakes off Kid Buu when Kid Buu has hax regeneration, infinite stamina, and could absorb people if he wanted too seeing as he did the same to a Supreme Kai to become Super Buu? Sure, he doesn't lose power at the rate SSJ3 Goku does, but he still doesn't have a reliable kill move against him and is going to take damage that'll add up as the fight goes on.
The only reason Kid Buu was more of a threat is cause it's wild, savage, it is instinctual.
Buutenks>Kid buu> Gohan>super buu
What?
People can't ask for more earthling action moments in current day? Just "watch og dragonball"? Some fans are honestly bored of seeing saiyan only content. Make a series on the side or something to give the earthlings more screentime.
I have to heavily disagree with Sages take on gohan being the “goku black” wouldnt make sense. It would arguable make MORE sense. All it would have took was Zamasu doing 2 seconds of research on how goku got as strong as he did to see gohans potential as he was a huge part of each fight that goku got his power ups from. It’s not like the Kai’s don’t know buu is a thing.
Buu with everyone abdorbed would have crazy power AND piccolo + gohan intelegence. He would divide himself into a billion little cells and hide them all around the ring and keep respawning from them. Hed win through the timer if not outright
1:00 hi there. Wanted to clarify the filler episode take. Not saying I wanna see nothing but backstory, nor am i saying do every universe. Just do luke the most popular ones for life after tournament of power arc. But definitely aeeing where u coming from tho.
goku should have been main character, but it would have been better not to position gohan to be the mc in first first place.
honestly I liked Jiren not so much for his power but the fact that for the first time in the dragon ball franchise the antagonist of the arc was actually a good guy while he may have been a bit extreme about his beliefs jiren was still a hero in his universe hell props to the manga for adding in the bit how Jiren didn't want to go to the TOP because he wasn't big on being responsible for wiping out universes I just found the ideal that Jrien and the pride troopers being these galactic hero's are also the enemy of our main protagonist group
i love the hot takes vids
W Power Rangers SPD reference, sage came up watching real tv
Rpm better
Great video, And for the love of god you people need to stop saying gohan needs to be the main character
Cause if he was the main character, Then Dragon ball will be more like boruto, Only ten times worse
not even necessarily boruto , but just punting on 90% of the best current db concepts for change just cuz is crazy
Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan and Gohan, but only in the *anime.*
Goku directly fights Gohan in Buuhan's body and states that this Gohan has equal power to the original.
Goku inside of Buuhan is weaker than he is in the outside world, and didn't even require SSJ3 to beat this Gohan.
In the anime and all the other material outside of it, it's stated multiple times over that Kid Buu is the strongest version of Buu.
So basically, both Goku and Kid Buu received insane buffs in the anime that are nonsensical, but pretty much have to be accepted. This pretty much invalidates any of the statements from Goku that make him appear weaker than the prior forms of Buu as well because this is only true for the Goku of that specific timeframe.
Kid Buu was also proven to just be playing around with Goku during their fight, so take that as you will.
Id watch tf out of a U6 arc.
in terms of popularity of takes, cell saga being the best in z is the single coldest take known to humanity, apart from “goku is the strongest in the series” 😂😂
6:18 I think what he means is, we see the future timeline as the main timeline and then we see all of that stuff that happened in the Future special, and then we follow trunks's adventure in the Future timeline. We see Trunks then GO BACK and ask for help and then the series continues as normal, I hope that breaks it down for you a little bit
8:32 I think he's saying Super is better than Og and Gt, but not Z. Which I disagree but opinions be opinions
bet but again that’d be VERY confusing in hindsight to snap to a different timeline & play it out just to then go back. Even more confusing or just deflating if you play things as normal.
If you have Goku beat frieza & die, then androids wipe everyone out, just would kinda ruin a lot of things perception wise. that wouldn’t be “our Z fighters” or “our original universe” even if it was easier to track 😂
@@TSO_Sage true, can't deny it would be interesting to see though, but still, I perfer the normal way things played out
As normal as normal gets for dragon ball at least
4:20 that evil Gohan not being realistic take is horrible because zamasu literally ask the god of knowledge everything there is to kno about goku, wich i assume includeds his family, howelse could u explain zamasu finding and killing chichi and goten. If he could find thm he could've found Gohan.
Even as someone whos favorite, ride or die character is gohan, he would not work as well as the main character of dragon ball, hell the fact that toriyama at least tried to make it work and went back because he knew gohan better than anyone is awesome and one of the reasons why he's the G.O.A.T. I think anyone that thinks gohan should have been the mc should go watch totally not marks review of the dbz series. He explains in great detail who gohan is and why hes not really meant for the role of mc in a series like this.
😬😬😬 idk man that superhero hot take is kinda accurate.....the animation was 🔥 but the fights wasnt hyped especially cell max and beast Gohan was just a play on ssj2 nostalgia
Out of the 4 movies broly 1st BOG 2 RF 3 superhero dead last
I think the Zamasu Saga would’ve been good if Goku Black offed the other Zamasu and carried out his plans.
That’s just boring man, the plot works with having both zamasu’s work together that’s why xeno goku black is boring as hell as compared to the canon one, that nigga is edgelord the character
Happy 80k!! Next step 100.
6:00 no honestly, I don't like the Abridged argument, because half of this damn community can't even comprehend why a Senzu bean was thrown. Straight up, I've seen way too many instances of people blatantly getting FACTS wrong. Facts that are present in Abridged AND canon. I don't wanna hear shit about Abridged harping any fan confusion outside of those who have only seen Abridged. Goku isn't even a great argument because it is obviously played up, and whether you like it or not, Z and Super are both responsible for slowly breaking Goku's character apart. That is, if you believe it is broken apart. Because if you do, it's not just Super that is to blame. Regardless, my point is that Abridged is not going to be responsible for the falsehoods that people have about Dragon Ball; that's something people have been misinterpreting since canon. The only thing Abridged could possibly do is reaffirm the argument in some peoples' minds, which is hardly a contribution.
I loved jiren DAY ONE and i remember everyone else hating
Hot take kefla vs goku is top 3 fight in dragon ball
top 3 fight overall ? hell na. ending to a fight? VERY debatable not mad at it
@@TSO_Sage nah you got goku going through each stage of super sayain even using god plus goku learning how to use UI better to cause damage and not to mention when goku slides across her beam with the kamehama was one of the cleanest ways to dead a fight in dragon ball history. Goku and kefla’s fight is probably one of the most underrated fight in dragon ball if not just super and it’s mostly because people don’t like kefla
People also forget that this fight also brought back a lot of viewers for super after jirin
@@curtisbuddYou combined 2 separate fights. What are your top 3.
@@ef-jkota3611 I wouldn’t say it’s 2 separate fights cause it all happened during the same fight but Ig if u count when they fuse another fight then Ig ur right but it still doesn’t change much about my point plus I reckon that fight has if not the best but one of the best use of kamehamha in the series. My top 3 fights would be goku vs broly, piccolo vs 17, goku vs kefla if we’re saying the point before and after they fuse are two different fights then I would say I like before the kefla fuse better than after
About the crybaby trunks thing we’re shown that trunks gets shit done when he has the power to do it aka killing cell & wiping out both dabura & babidi
I like all the series, and this whole proxy war between OG Fans, Z fans, GT fans, and super fans. We just need to agree to disagree, and enjoy what you enjoy. I mean super canonicity is weird cause of the movies, manga, Prequel movies, and it doesnt help half of it like dirt. And a lot of these problems people complain about in all these series started in Z.
Kid Buu is the strongest Buu.
When is the next big offline video goat😢
All might "beyond plus ultra" >> Gogeta stardust breaker
why to this day people think that kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan when ss3 Goku wasn't able to keep up with BASE SUPER BUU, and he is able to keep up with KID BUU. kid Buu is the most dangerous and crazy, but Buuhan is stronger and my opinion on is this. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't care IF it is a filler or not (not sure if it was), there is NO WAY kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan. I agree with that comment around 2 minutes. Again, it's my opinion