Cine EI - Watch This Before Trying it on your Sony Camera
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ค. 2024
- Cine EI is a feature to get the most out of the image in the Sony FX6, now brought to the Sony FX3 after the firmware update. Many people are new to the setting, and how to do it right, and many are mistakenly getting Cine EI mistaken, so here's how to use Cine EI on the Sony FX6 AND the Sony FX3.
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SONY FX6 SETUP
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Atomos Ninja V ➡ geni.us/hmnBk6H
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🎥 Gear I Use to Make Videos:
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Great video explaining Cine EI. I started shooting in Slog 3 on my Sony FX6 within the last 8 months. While still wrapping my mind around Cine EI, I'm loving the results I'm getting.
I FINALLY understand EI now! Everyone made it so hard to understand but this was perfect, thank you!
You’re welcome !!
I just got the FX6 for school. This is the first camera of any type that I have ever owned and Im finding your videos very useful. I know nothing about anything you said in this video but after watching it a few more times Im sure ill understand.
So far the best and concise explanation of Cine EI I’ve watched
Oh thanks man 🙏🏾🙏🏾
love how thorough you detailed this!! new sub 🙏🏽
Thanks !! I appreciate it!
one the best, articulate, solid descriptions ever. thank you.
Thanks !
100% best video explanation of this feature.
Thanks !!!
Hey man I saw the video where you outlifted those guys with the shoulderpress haha impressive! keep it up man you're a beast
Haha thanks ! bodybuilding isnt as much of my wheel house as this stuff is haha
Thank you thank you! I have looked at a lot of explanations for Cine EI including Alister Chapman. You have given the best tutorial on this subject I have seen. Keep this up, we need you.
Oh man I appreciate it a lot !!
This is the best, most clear explanation I've found. It makes perfect sense. The only thing I'm wary of is utilizing EI when handing footage off to other editors. In most cases the footage would be in competent hands, but you run the risk of having clients be unhappy with your footage unless you have the option or even want to spend the time walking other editors through the post-production process of properly handling the footage. For the most part, I intend to use this method when I know I will be editing the footage or am certain the editors will know how to handle the process; especially with a lot of the run and gun projects I shoot. Something to consider.
I’ve been handing it off for about a year and so far it’s been fine !
@@KofiYeboah good to know. I'm sure I'll have to hold some hands occasionally, but it'll be worth those smooth ass shadows 👌
Excellent explanation! Finally I unterstood the concept of EI. Thanks for opening my eyes, Kofi!
thanks ! glad you learned something!
Thank you for excellent video. I learned a lot. I was having a problem with color. I couldn't understand why at REC709 and sLog3 the image looked exactly the same. Another issue is that when I applied different LUTS the difference wasn't that dramatic compared to grading footage from my old Lumix FZ2500.
Great stuff man. Glad someone is making consistent Sony content. Making me want to get back on the YT horse 😂
Ahah I haven no intention of making permanent switches , so it’s going to be Sony content and film making for a while 😂
Great content as always Kofi 👏 I am still learning every day with my FX6 😂🙈 but I love it 🎥😍
Ahah that’s the best part about this camera
This by far was one of the best explanations on Cine EI. Lots of detail. I have a two part question for you: 1.) are you using this for moving shots, and it so, would you mind showing us how you use it in that setting? I know thats a big ask, so if you can't no biggie. Thanks for all you're doing for the film community.
I still do, although in that regard nothing really changes for me !
this is so much understandable thanks for the clear message
You’re welcome !!
Perfect articulation 🎬🎬
Thanks !
Bro, I just went GOD MODE on my FX6 because of your video, definitely getting that subscribe and bell
I had to watch twice and save the video for reference
Hope it pans out!
the higher ISOs are quite useful in broad daylight or sets where majority of your shots are lit on the mids and highlights and less in the shadows.
Which started a theory for me , and that’s maybe 12,800 might have a different DR slightly in highlights/shadows when exposed properly , I’m not a scientist and I’ll never know , but had me thinking !
Thanks for the thorough explanation! What I can’t find online, is how to edit CineEI footage properly in Final Cut Pro X. Are there transform LUTs for each CineEI level?
Nope! Generally you’d just use exposure , I made a new video showing you editing Luts in resolve if you’re into it 😊🙌🏾
Verrrrrrrry well explained my friend
Thanks!
Amazing video and awesome explanation! I’m just a little confused on the whole exposure index thing. I understand that it doesn’t affect the recorded image, but why are we changing the “brightness” of our monitor? I’m nervous by changing the exposure on the monitor will make me change settings that will ruin my final image. I shoot a ton of weddings so majority of the time I will be run and gun with all different lighting scenarios.
It’s only shooting the preview to give a guide of how to adjust our settings
Finally somebody that explains it correctly, outside of Alister Chapman's blog, thanks for this! Side note: the 41% Zebras are only valid when not using the s709 LUT on the FX6. When the LUT is active middle grey goes to 44-45% zebras, just a heads up for other FX6 users. Also you can see the EI you used in the MXF metadata using catalyst browse. With that info it's easier to adjust gain in Davinci Resolve to make the default SLog3 color transform behave correctly. (At least so far I haven't found Davinci Resolve being able to compensate automatically)
Thanks ! I saw a ton of videos that explained if it topically , but I took a run at trying to make it make sense ! Catalyst browse I learned was more than just stabilizing footage in post haha . Davinci doesn’t auto adjust for Cine EI BUT in resolve I usually set up a cst at the end and exposure adjustments as my first 1-2 nodes and I adjust from there , you can even get some good out of the HDR primaries too ✌🏾
@@KofiYeboah I use their ACES workflow, then there's no need for that final CST node and more flexibility to export to SDR or HDR at the end. Indeed I use the HDR primaries to adjust exposure in my first grading node, because it shows it in t-stops, easier to do the EI math 😅
@@MichaelKefeder haha 😂 I don’t use ACES much, but I feel you on the HDR
I shoot Cine EI all the time the rule of thumb is you wan to always over expose your image by 1.3 to 1.7 Stops OVER 0.0 Exposure, meaning over exposed, the reason for this is, because because you got a good dynamic range out of your camera you can tone down the exposure and shadows and highlights in post production like Premier Pro or Davinci Resolve, and make your exposure look 0.0 like you wanted it, with a ton of less noise, and your getting the less noise over exposing because your using the cleanest base ISO.
So, you don't have to change your EI value at all lets say your shooting at Base ISO 800, you could just adjust your aperture settings and watch you meters to show your 1.3 over exposed and that is where you want to be and not touch the EI adjustment too look normal you could just film with the over exposed look and that still will give you the same look as if you turned down EI value below 800 lets say 640, and then brought your aperture to make the exposure look normal and not over exposed, it will be the same.
Example, lets say i shot a scene at 800 Base ISO and didn't touch the EI value kept it on 800, then used a aperture value of F4.0 and the exposure shows 1.3 stops over.
then if i did it the other way and had base ISO at 800, but used a EI value of 640 and then the picture look correctly exposed using Aperture 4.0 the same value, you would get both the same results in a final video file when you bring your video to your editor (premier pro) the only reason the image looks correctly exposed when using EI value of 640 is because i'm over exposing but making it look correctly exposed as if i was to make adjustments in premier pro,
Basically all this EI value thing is doing is giving you a look at what you will get when you edit your video in prost production, that is all, as i said you could just leave your EI value to base ISO value , and let your image look over exposed on your camera screen and if you want, but your not going to be able to see what your actually going to be working with in your editor, that is the only difference..
Many times i just leave me base ISO at 800 don't play with the EI values at all let me image look over exposed and look at my waveform to see if the exposure is 1.3 to 1.7 stops over and knowing that i will be able to fix that in post production and it will be what i want.
That is how one would do it using a camera that doesn't have a Cine EI setup like the Fuji X-T4 or something when i used that i was always over exposed 1.3 stops over and my screen always looked over exposed and i was ok with that because i knew what i was doing and knew this is what i wanted to get less noise and good dynamic range..
same thing as if you shoot with the canon R5c your going to over expose Clog as well..
Now i always shoot with the Ninja always and so i watch all my meters and such on the ninja because it has better metering systems in there to tell me what i'm doing and what is over exposed and what is not and by how much it has tons of tools in there better then the camera to tell me i'm where i want to be it has false color it has zebra's and wave forms, histogram's are really not good for watching exposer for video it does give you an idea where your whites and blacks are, but does nothing to tell you if your over or under exposed by small amounts.
So when you first start using CIne EI, you could just over expose your image by 1.3 stops over and not touch the EI values to see what it will look like in the video editor when your fixing it this.
That way you can focus on what your doing while shooting and not have 1 more thing to try and monitor when you don't really have too, but later once you get the hang of it then you can start playing with the EI values and do it that way.. But you don't really have too to get the results you want..
Rule of thumb if you have to turn your exposure up in Post that is bad that is when your getting nose, always having to turn your exposure down slightly is always good, you won't introduce noise unless it's a crazy amount of course and your exposure was clipping while recording..
Many people shoot with low aperture numbers like F2.8 or F1.8 to get a look to blur out the background, and that is fine, how ever tho if that is not the look your going for you do want to use higher aperture values anywhere around F5.6 to F8 to give you the best sharpness, remember low aperture numbers like F1.8 will be softer and not as sharp as lets say F7 or F8.
so if your not trying to get an artistic look and blur out the background like a landscape or full sharp image you don't wan to use low aperture numbers like F2.8 or F1.8 those will produce softer image.
All lenses have a sweet spot of best sharpness anywhere from F5.6 to F8 usually on most lenses F8 is the sharpest image your going to get with your lens, but it does depend on what lens your using.
Don't go too high of an aperture number tho because that will start to degrade your sharpness as well going too high that is why i said there is a sweet spot in your lens.
That also applies to focal length as well there is always sweet spots in how much you zoom in or out, being the widest gives you less detail and zoomed in too much as well there is always a lens sweet spot where it performs it's best a good place to find out where that is for your lens is a website called DXOMARK, this place uses expensive equipment to measure lens specs..
www.dxomark.com/Lenses/
I mean you could use that , but then just using custom mode and shooting at 800 or 12,800 probably is fine , I prefer the 18% grey method in most cases , because if I’m using multi metering , sure I can go 1.3-1.7 over , but WHERE that exposure is I might not have control over since multi metering looks at the whole image , and you may need more shadows/highlights in some areas over others , it’s a great start, but if I have a chance to, i usually keep a grey card on me 👍🏾
@@KofiYeboah yes that is great, and i been doing this so long i always know where i'm at and never have to play with the EI settings at all, i know where my shadows are and what i'm doing for what i shoot, if i do have to shoot something where i'm panning the camera in different angles and places then yes i would use your method because there is all kinds of crazy changes happening when you move your camera around white balance changes exposure highlights change, everything so your method is best if your panning your camera all over the place, but for what i shoot i i don't have to do that, i shoot with lights in a studio and it's always controlled lighting and my subject is always in 1 area and my camera pans are small, i shoot playboy style videos so my scene is always the same in controlled lighting, so it's easier for me to just leave it on 800 base iso and not fool with the Ei settings and leaves me more time to do what i need to do such as directing the model, composition all that..
And i use spot metering because i'm always metering the subject the girl, and what is important to me is her skin tones nothing else really just her skin tones so i don't meter the entire scene because that is basically arbitrary and not as importing as getting her skin tones 100% correctly..
So that is why my method looks fine for me :)
but i if i was shooting a movie scene or something where the entire look is important then that is another story.. :)
Need this video specially on black skin! Thanks for making this. I just filmed a video for my channel for the first time on cine ei and brought the footage in to edit and was soo confused because I underexposed the crap out of it!
I actually filmed a video on exposing for darker skin tones ✊🏾 keep killin it bro
@@KofiYeboah going to tap in!
Question: You say that changing the EI does not effect the final image, but when I shot a test, the same shot in 3 different EI settings, they all looked different in Resolve. The first was dark, and as I raised the EI, the 2nd was brighter and the 3rd was brightest. So it does seem to be effecting the image. What am I missing?
Are you sure you're not in flexible ISO? and did you change the cine ei setting alone or other settings to compensate?
@@KofiYeboah the answer is no to both. I am not in flex ISO and I changed nothing else but the EI. I will say, that if I go to “Camera Raw” in Resolve, and choose Decode Using > Sony Default, then it does change the Exposure setting from, let’s say 1250/800, down to 800/800. So I do see that you can change this after filming.
Update: in Premiere, the footage all looks the same, as you said. There must be something off about my project settings in Resolve.
This was helpful. It cleared up a lot of questions that I had. One last question. Can you apply a LUT with cine ei and use the gray card or does that mess up your ability to expose correctly?
You ‘can’t but just you gotta make sure your Sony luts are for log so the exposure isn’t off
Great video!! I understand now, but how do you normally expose for run and gun work?
Same thing really I stil use Cine ei
@@KofiYeboah do you use a grey card then outside? Sorry I’m new to this and am starting from 0. Also just a quick one, thanks for your video and inspiration.
Man thank you!
Glad it helped !!
This was awesome! My question is I was testing the FX6 and in S-Log 3 with no monitoring LUT, I saw no changes on the built in monitor in white balance or exposure when adjusting those. Is that normal or is there a live view option like on mirrorless cameras?
That would kinda make sense !
How do you correct your footage in post? Conversion LUTs? Or you bake in?
If i'm filming at base 800, and i move the ISO down to 200 like you've suggest, the footage in post is obviously now two stops over and it's seemingly tricky to bring down in post and doesn't quite look right?
I usually make a node tree with my conversation at the end an a node to adjust my exposure 👍🏾
can you do a video recording on fx30 steps for proper exposure.....appreciate your work and help....
It’s already on the channel my friend !
Hi Kofi. What exact settings should I choose in FX6 for the best , crisp indoor videos?
Not sure, but there’s a ton of videos here to help figure it out 👍🏾
Thank you
You’re welcome !
very useful mate
Glad to hear!
You said to expose at 41% for zebras for middle gray. Do you have a range you use in your waveform to make sure you stay within?
Around 45ish is fine !
im a bit confused. you said to expose for 41 percent gray at first then at 200 ei you said to expose at 18 percent gray. and why did you change the percentage of exposure?
41% ire*
One more question if you don't mind...It seems like you can't re-rate in slog3 without monitor luts on. Is that the case? It looks your footage is being re-rated in slog though, so I am a bit confused.
Idk what re rate is ?
Hello how are you, I know it has nothing to do with this topic, but seeing that you have an fx6, you could still help me..
I am trying to attach the proxies files that create my fx6 in premier pro but I get this error (proxy media and full resolution media should have the same audio channels), the thing is that the original file has 8 channels and the proxy 2, I have tried to change it in the camera, in the proxy menu and it won't let me change the audio channels, I have also tried to do it in the premier pro menu and the same thing keeps coming out. Does anyone know something?? can you help me
Minorly frustrating that no one is explaining what you're doing to change exposure values if EI does literally nothing. Obviously the only other way is to change shutter and aperture, mainly only aperture, but if you're in a situation where you need more light when not in situations where you can use 100% controlled lighting, which is majority of the situations, then aperture can only open up so far meaning......we're just screwed and better off using flexible (normal) ISO settings? Would like someone to explain the entire details on these. If this is the case, then if we know the base ISOs, and we already know we have to adjust aperture first, if we can, to keep best dynamic range and least noise.....then what's the point of Cine EI other than limiting what we can do if in event we actually need more light?
First off, I think the idea here is maybe use Cine ei when you have some control of lights… that’s not the only way this works, if you need more gain, just go to your second high base at 12,800 and nd down as you need to?
Cine ei is an exposure tool, just like false colour or zebras, by that same logic, they don’t change your footage either right?
@@KofiYeboah Right, but it's only for monitor so from what I am seeing in everyone's video, is not giving us accurate right now image and giving us an image that we are supposed to match waveforms to, which is exactly the same as not using it at all and seeing the exact image changing as we change exposure. So that is why this is confusing. I'd rather see the right now image exactly how it is going to look if I record it. So I'm trying to see what the actual benefit is. Unless I am just not understanding something, since it appears that both get the exact same result, one just shows you a live preview and one shows you where you want to be and have to match all the charts to get there
@@KofiYeboah If we're in a situation, like run and gun, majority people using these are not in controlled lighting. Like gym, or running around town, not lugging around tons of gear. Which means most the time we need as much light as possible and have to be wide open, where ND filters are not being used.....so if we need more light, which would normally require us to raise the ISO even further or just lose the shadows regardless.......It sounds like Cine EI would be limiting our results instead?
@@thai_le_foto you are missing something , I’d recommend doing more research because I think the major gap is you’re expecting Cine ei to
Do more than let you know
What settings you need to have better shadows or highlights in a shot, that’s all ( I put a graph here for exactly how many stops that is for each Cine ei)
I'm filming with an FX6 for the next couple of months and I've watched 4 or 5 videos on EI and I still have no idea what the point of it is. I've shot SLOG3 for 5 or 6 years now and have always relied on monitors with SLOG3-REC709 LUTS to monitor my exposure. Is that all it is doing? I can't believe I'm not grasping the concept.
Sorta, it’s just an exposure tool like the others really!
hi, how to set the lower limit of the zebra on a white card using MLUT?
I usually use Luts in my monitor and keep my camera to log or gamma assist, you can change your zebra values in the look menu
Would love to see some davinci resolve tutorials if possible
I got like 5 tricks max I could give it a shot !
ty!
yW!
hi there, is Cine EI on the sony a7siii as well?
No , unfortunately!
Im very new to cinematography and still struggling with the EI thing. If EI is only supposed to adjust how the exposure appears on your monitor, why are you first setting your EI Iso then adjusting for 18% grey? Wouldn't you want to adjust for 18% grey to ensure you are moderately overexposed for slog3, then mess with the EI till you see how the overexposed footage would look when graded properly?
Because the stops in highlight and shadow are better exposed depending on what you set and expose to, the stops in dynamic range don’t change, you just move along a number line so to speak up and down. Ex 200EI is still 800 iso, but if you expose to MG, you’re naturally going to be over exposed, and also have more of your darker spots exposed, and vice versa
i am still lost, if its not backed in why do the three clips look different? is it how you graded it ?
It’s just as I converted it to rec.709!
So what would be the best ISO and EI for best all around look for HIlights and shadow details
Unfortunately there isn’t a “best one” for one size fits all , you have to be able to look at YOUR scene and choose accordingly 👍🏾
@@KofiYeboah this morning I used SLog 3 without putting it in EI mode I kept it in custom and the result was decent still not completely comfortable using log yet
You’ll get it soon trust !
this is the correct explanation of cine ei; unfortunately, and practically it only helps recovering shadows, the opposite will introduce too much noise
Yeah 👎🏾
But! Sure is handy!
So how would you go about exposing that last setup you had? The "robbing peter to pay paul" part. Is the answer to either treat those windows or add way more light to you?
Yeah , if you expose for the windows, you can add more light
@@KofiYeboah thanks. But in a setup like that, without adding more light, you are screwed in someway, correct?
@@danfresh36 technically, I wouldn’t try to go window as backlight in the day and exporse for highlights and not have any light , you’re better off just moving your subject
what if the white balance is off? Then I would expose my image wrong, right?
White balance and exposure are separate, but I’d recommend getting proper WB!
@@KofiYeboah Yeah sure they are - but the first step would be: set the white balance correctly based on the grey card and then the second step is set exposure based on middle grey. Otherwise the exposure would be off because WB is wrong, Right?
Excellent video but I still don’t quite get it. What I am not getting is you showing how the Cine EI previsualisation tool affects post work. Because that’s what it’s for right? Since it doesn’t do anything whatsoever to exposure it must be about pulling exposure down in post?
Your camera was set to 12800, then you changed Cine EI to display the image 2 stops darker. That means that you have exposed for the shadows and are now pulling the image down in post to look correct. The difference is that we now no longer have noisy shadows, since we gave them 2 stops extra light.
I’m from the darkroom era and this Cine EI seems to me to be somewhat reminiscent of Ansel Adams zone systems. Make a choice where middle grey will be and the rest of the spectrum will fall accordingly.
The problem is your video (and everyone else’s) are only talking about the capturing part, you’re not talking about post. This becomes EXTREMELY confusing as you’re talking about protecting highlights and shadows. There is no way you could possibly be doing that if you’re not changing exposure. Still haven’t found a single video that can properly explain this. Incredible!
I think what’s missing here is that Cine ei alone DOESNT change your exposure , that is correct , but it’ll give you a preview of what things look like at ei values, where you use lighting/nd or your iris. That’s it. If I flick my switch from 200 to 640 to 800 if I change no other settings , nothing happens, it’ll just look like it on a monitor. also reason why I didn’t go into post is 1: there’s 3 major editing programs , I don’t use 2 of them ( I’m on resolve) so it would be disingenuous to pretend I use fcpx or pp, on resolve , I just set a rec.709 transform and pull my image back as I’d need to , I’ll probably hav a post workflow on another video though , thanks 🙏
another 1
Comin through a few times a week !
All mine are like at 20000 I so confused lowest I can go is 3200. Help?
I don’t understand the question ?
@@KofiYeboah I figured it out thanks just learning these presets. Excuse my typos
I'm still confused as all hell. Who cares what your LCD shows or what your IE value is at if it doesn't change anything to the file itself when you go into post-production?
How can it help get you proper exposure or more/different dynamic range if it literally doesn't do anything to your file? Why is that better than just shooting with actual correct exposure?
It's confusing to wrap a head around, but try watching it again, there's details on adjusting your settings for proper s-log3 exposure, cine ei essentially makes that easier to achieve, rather than just saying " go +1.7 stops over exposed"
@@KofiYeboah Right, but say I’m run and gunning. And I need to bump my ISO a little higher than 12,800 for proper exposure. Why on earth would I just shoot under exposed with CineEI, and bump that in post, rather than literally exposing it correctly in camera with Flexible ISO
@@richardnayfilms2812 if you watch it again , the idea is the opposite where you WOULDNT pick an ei that under exposes your image. Also , there’s nothing wrong with flexible iso, it’s all a choice if you’d like to
@@KofiYeboah but EI doesn’t expose your image, just your LCD. Right? I want to understand and use this if it’s beneficial, I’m truly just lost at understanding why I care what the exposure is on my LCD
@@richardnayfilms2812 well you’d need to monitor your image somehow . It’s just a setting to ensure you’re at the best dynamic range you can use other isos in flexible but the DR is highest is at either of those 2, it’s more an assist feature , not a baked in look
So we no longer expose to the right with cine ei?
Sort of ! Truthfully , if you’re using grey cards and Cine ei , you’ll probably find yourself a touch over exposed anyways, ETTR is just a great rule of thumb to get good results , Cine ei in a way is a bit deeper that’s all
Try not to touch your white card like this, it’s gonna turn grey.
I make sure I wash my hands
Ok but pls do not touch the surface of that color checker
K