Hello guys, I am a retired engineer from GKN ePowertrain. We are the manufacturer of that front RDM (front diff assembly). First of all I love your channel. At the facility in Newton NC where it’s built, we manufacture both ring and pinion and then welded ring gear to diff assembly. Then they go to our assembly line. First of all you are very correct that there is a very proprietary additive package in the oil that is in there. It is so proprietary that BMW doesn’t tell us what is in it. Whole unit is of BMW design, not. GKN design. They just have us manufacturing them with our proprietary processes of machining, laser welding and assembly. We along with BMW basically call it a lifetime fill but truthfully it could use a fluid charge around 60K to 70K depending on several things. What I can’t remember if it has a magnetic drain plug or not, if so was there debris on it?. There is on more possible answer that I know has happened before but very difficult to find or prove. I will try to explain…during processing of the firing and pinion set, one step is that every ring and pinion set are lapped together in very special machines. That lapping compound is silicon carbide in an oil suspension. It’s 220 grit equivalent. Set’s are then washed in pair in special custom washers. Then placed in another machine for testing. Then washed again. There have been instances where and small glob of lapping compound get stuck and hardens in the root of pinion teeth. If that was possible case and during you fluid change it came loose. It can and will compromise the pinion head bearing has you showed. If that Valvoline had heavy detergent additive in it it could have actually was said compound out into the bearing since the head bearing is directly behind pinion head. And it doesn’t take much to ruin that bearing. You would never see any gear tooth damage either as they were lapped anyway. Again. I am just speculating as I was not there with you to analyze the diff. In 23 years working there and lead most if not all design and manufacturing phases, I have seem thousands of those go out the door
Lab work on the oil that came out would show the lapping compound as a contaminant. So, as long as the oil was saved after the video was made this might still be provable. How many parts per million of that silicon carbide compound were in the oil would be measurable.
@@ljcardea4 I'm talking about the oil that was in it when it failed. If that shows lapping compound at anything over trace levels, your idea of a lump that was dislodged, either by the oil change, or by the better detergents. I'm assuming the "original" oil went into the sump with a hundred gallons of oils from other cars. However, that oil was probably OK as far as lapping compound or the bearing would have failed long before. That oil is what I'd want to test for bearing materials, iron, chrome and nickel.
@ljcardea4 I would have to agree with you, especially on the additive package and the possibility of the compound. The clearances may be so tight that the lack of the additives caused the problem, and if there was something that came loose could have caused this also. I found out about additives in the late 70s when I built a posi-track for my Mustang and didn't know of the Ford additive needed for it. When I took the car out for the first test drive it made a popping in the rear-end when I made a turn so I immediately parked the car and went to the Ford parts counter and asked about it. That is when I learned about the additive. Not knowing how many miles the customer drove the car, it could have easily damaged the diff in a day. Unfortunately for Sherwood, this may never be solved and could have just been bad luck. I have to say, Sherwood is the person that everyone should strive to be.
Well done, you answered all the negative comments, maybe you and your team were unlucky with the timing of the bearing failure, but you owned the end result and rectified it. I have nothing but respect for you and your company.
I find it incredible that someone would accuse you of faking a video in which you admit you made a major mistake. No business owner would risk damaging their reputation just for a few clicks and likes on TH-cam. You can't win with some people. It doesn't matter how honest you are. They will still find a way to criticise you. Best thing to do is to point at them and laugh.
That bearing was failing prior to you servicing the front diff ..its exemplary that you stood behind your work .I have used the the valvoline oil on BMW front diffs and never had an issue ,am a retired BMW tech with 38 years experience on BMW
Hello Sherwood, Save the pinion bearing and knock the outer race out of the housing and give it to your Valvoline rep and save some of the oil and have them do a breakdown analysis of the bearing. I'm retired now but we have a couple guys at work that do vibration analysis on our equipment and are always inspecting bearings on failed equipment. I'm sure Valvoline has the resources to do this for you. We used Mobile products, and they did it for us if we asked. We also did it ourselves in house, I'd have to agree that the damage was already done, and you were unlucky to have been the last to touch it. too bad you don't have a sample of the old oil from when you performed the service. I bet if you had it analyzed it would show the problem had started before you serviced it. I applaud you for taking care of your customer. I hope they spread the word around on how well you treated them. You know they would have told 100 people or more how you broke it and didn't back up your work. Hang in there, it will be a better day tomorrow Dave Szydlo (Retired NPPC 41 years.)
I second this. When packaging blended lubricants there is absolutely a chance for wrong product to pushed into the filling line. You never know these days....as every company has trouble finding people that care for an hourly wage.
Is it possible the tech did not look for glitter in the old fluid that was drained from the dif? Or missed seeing it if he did look? If a shop is going to recommend fluid service, they better be good at documenting the condition of the removed fluid and report fluid condition to the customer. They also better have the OEM fluid for the refill. Epic Fail!! Plus, we (viewers) still DID NOT learn anything from this., as we still don't know why that bearing failed. Difference between 85 and 90 is ~6%. Difference between 16 and 20 is 20%. Both are small numbers (4 or 5 visc points). The second example is a 20% difference though, no longer a small number.
How would a regular neighborhood shop make money fixing know common factory defects for free just because they were last to touch it? Yeah happy customers but most would go broke because everyday some customer is blaming them for a problem, ever since you did my brakes the engine doesn't run right.
ACCOUNTABILITY. A lot of people have lost this. To touch on the flat rate you are 1000% right. I’m a painter at a collision shop and with flat rate you definitely have to take the good with the bad, but at the end of the month you definitely get more good than bad. Well said Sherwood! Your videos are great and honest. Keep it up 👍🏻
*_"flat rate you are 1000% right. I’m a painter at a collision shop and with flat rate you definitely have to take the good with the bad, but at the end of the month you definitely get more good than bad."_* Unless you're not particularly good at what you do - so if you're not coming out on top, you might want to consider a change of career!
Props to this garage service for taking responsibility and owning mistake without a fuss so rare in today's world. I'd say u made a lifetime customer out of that guy. Much respect 💯
My input on this failure.1) that’s a very economical design of diff,ball races as opposed to taper rollers.2) the bearing doesn’t look like it got hot,so usurer didn’t suffer to lack of lubrication. 3) taper bearing don’t like any debris’s between their surface due to contact area. My conclusion would be the diff was already failing and the process of the oil change disturbed of all ready present debris. You could send that oil off to Valvoline for testing I’m sure they would be interested. Keep up the good work boys.
I think it is over engineered and either has too much stress for the bearing, you have a wide bearing, and the wear is not even. Also, the oil may not have gotten to the bearing, they did put the heaviest fluid in, and it may take the lightest or something closer to trans fluid. You put that heavy gear oil into an engine it will have damage even if the pump could handle the oil and it was above 70F, cold temperatures do not seem to be a factor. I would suspect it is more a viscosity issue over additives, high moly I don't think would make that much of a difference the rest of the additives are for life and quality of oil over time. The BMW fluid is a black box, and its viscosity probably could only be determined with a refrigerated fluid pour test, if they used the lightest vs heaviest oil it may have worked though maybe not if it is closer to trans fluid.
As both an engineer and a mechanic I totally agree with your analysis. I have seen far to many times where a fluid change disturbs existing debris and then the long term wear pop's up suddenly. High mileage automatic transmissions have a similar reverse problem. The transmission clutch packs are rather worn and its the grit and the debis in the fluid that is making them hold. Do a total transmission flush (or several drains and fills to get rid of most of the old fluid with the debris) and the clutch packs start to slip - leading to usually a $2-$4000 transmission job; which the customer will likely blame on the fluid service just provided unless you explain things clearly up front, and the risk, before the start of the job.
Good evening, sir, I’ve been in Mechanic for the past 45 years sorry for any misspell’s. This is voice text. I agree I would 100% take responsibility, especially after one day. And I don’t disagree that you didn’t put exactly the same fluid that they called for into it. But are we sure that enough test drive with the radio off and no AC and a smooth road was done to make sure there was no noise. That bearing could’ve been on the verge of failing and no one caught it. And I wouldn’t run that by the client, because it looks like your CYA. But I just cannot see how that those two different oils are so dissimilar that the improper oil can cause the diff to fail that quick. I think I believe that that thing was on its way out, and no one heard it. But I agree with the way you solved the problem, and I have total respect for the way you run your operation.
I'm not sure if your watched the whole video but you're wrong about the customer. Customer did nothing wrong at all. The shop recommended the service not the customer. So either the diff was going bad and the fluid change was the final straw, the wrong fluid causes more damage than you realize or it was a combination of those things. But the customer didn't ask for the service and Sherwood's point is that if your first instinct is to blame the customer than you're doing it wrong.
@@alanmeyers3957 Irrelevant and if you had done the work like this and didn't correct it you'd be the type of shop he's talking about. His shop recommended the service, put wrong fluid in and then immediately had issues. Doesn't matter if it's just bad luck. They fixed it so good on them but bad on every commenter that keeps commenting irrelevant or incorrect stuff about it.
I think you guy were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Parts are made like crap now a days, you got screwed and rectified the problem very professionally.
Sherwood you are too much of a gentleman to address some of those posters properly. They are simply malcontents. Their lack of critical thinking skills clearly show. They also never signed the front of a check. No reason in the world with your reputation why you would make a fake video for likes or views. We share the earth with odd thinking people. We all see them everyday especially in the comment section. Thank you and your staff for showing the good the bad and the ugly. We all can learn from this.
Absolutely a preexisting condition. That tapered timkin style bearing is the same material and spec as any other diff. The fluid your tech installed is fine for that bearing. I would say that the BMW fluid has properties that are compatible with the non metalic cage on those ball bearings.
Nice to see an honest shop fixing their issues. However, if the fluids were both GL-5 rated either would be appropriate in my opinion. The differential looks poorly designed with the split case and I have had the same issue with the pinion bearing going bad. In both cases it was a piece of cast flashing from the housing that broke off and fell into the bearing. Your mechanic was just the poor guy who was in the right place at the wrong time when the bomb went off.
Sherwood, after watching this video over a dozen times I don't think the damage to the roller bearing is the root cause of the problem. In all of my years working in industry I have never seen a roller bearing wear in such a way as to produce a clicking type binding. The clicking here is symmetrical and even. The most common way you would get this in a roller bearing would be if the race had a crack in it and the crack opened up. However, the wear pattern on the rollers do not show an impact wear pattern but a consistent circumference wear pattern about 1/16 of an inch from the top of the rollers. Also the tops of the rollers show no wear. The most severe wear pattern is about 1/16 of an inch from the top of each roller. This looks like the roller cage has been pushed out of its race towards the back end of the pinion. This causes the rollers to run on the edge of the race not the full surface.. Most of the load is then concentrated on a small portion of the rollers causing the narrow wear pattern on each roller. From the video it looks like the problem is caused from the front ball bearing and race. If you look at the front ball bearing closely you will see impact scars on the circumference of each ball in a circular pattern. This would indicate that the ball is falling into a hole smaller than the ball causing the scar. If you look inside of the race area you will see what looks like a hole at the 3 o'clock position. You will also see circumference scars on the race just after the hole on the right side of the race. Not sure what the race is made of or if there is even a race installed. The ball bearings may be riding on the housing. It is hard to tell from the video. If you look where the front ball bearing sits on the pinion shaft you will see a circular wear pattern on the shaft and what looks like a blackening of the shaft. This looks like the front ball bearing inner cage was spinning on the pinion shaft instead of being stationary on the shaft. Looking at all of this is why you are getting the clicking and binding when you turn the pinion slowly. As each ball enters this hole on the right side of the housing it gets stuck a little until you turn the pinion further and the next ball contacts the hole and so on. This acts like the detents on a camera lens when you change the "F" stop settings. The faster you turn, the less of a binding you will feel. The slower you turn the more you feel each ball enter the hole. Not sure what this hole is for or if some kind of plug was there that fell out, since I can't see the right side of the housing. Since this pinion is somewhat floating in the longitudinal direction, this could have caused the shaft to move backwards a little pushing the roller bearing slightly out of its race. To me it looks like the noise is mostly coming from the front ball bearing. You could test for this by using a stethoscope and moving from the roller bearing to the front ball bearing and seeing where the noise is the loudest. Also if you look at the front of the housing at the 6 o'clock position you will see a very small hole drilled through to the front race area. Not sure what this tiny hole is for or if it has any function. As far as the oil is concerned, both the BMW oil and the Valvoline are API rated GL5. According to the API any oil rated GL5 is compatible with another GL5 oil of another manufacturer since they have to meet the same specifications. The only other factor is if the BMW oil had on its label that it was fortified with an additive such as Moly or Boron etc. or some proprietary additive that is necessary for use in their cars. I could not see that on the label because of the lighting in the video. I think your mechanic or your shop did not do anything wrong servicing this BMW. It may be a manufacturing defect on BMW's end since the car had only 35K miles on it. I hope you still have the differential since BMW may owe you the cost of this repair.
I'm a shade tree mechanic and when the damage was shown on screen compared to what was in the replaced oil, I said the amount of mass just doesn't add up. The previous oil had to have a huge amount of contaminant. The mistake here was the tech did not inspect the old oil.
Sherwood. I am a motorcycle tech, nearly 30 yrs. Japanese bikes mainly and since they have evolved into rolling computers the similarities with automobiles they are getting very close in how they are serviced and repaired, they have become very sensitive to fluids and voltages. Many times I have seen bad grounds cause major issues. The spider grounds are just nuts on modern bikes. But the problems that can occur when you get a fluid replacement wrong, they can be massive. There was a shaft drive motorcycle built in the 90s until 2010s, they were shaft driven. There was a fairly small batch that were shipped with standard 80/90w gear oil, most of them that did not have the correct gear oil replaced at PDI failed exactly as the BMW diff in this video. The bearings let go completely, beginning with the bearing cage completely disintegrating and in turn destroying the rest of the assembly. The problem was that the oil was not of the hypoid rated gear oil. Another major fluid issue Ive seen was caused by incorrect brake fluid. Normally dot 4 or 5 in most motorcycles is assumed to be good, most of the time the filler cap indicates what is correct. Not so easy with European or Italian motorcycles. Some of the bikes that are not Japanese can use one of or a combination of DOT, mineral and silicone. None of which are compatible with each other including the systems they are used in. Customer brings a KTM in for a pre-road trip service, a fairly large service at that. Almost every wear item replaced including all fluids. Aftermarket cap on the clutch fluid reservoir no fluid type info on it. Obviously Amazon thinks fluid types are irrelevant, so it is just a shiny hunk of crap that's of no help to the tech. Fortunately there was another KTM of the same model parked in the lot, tech goes out and looks, ok the cap says DOT5. Problem solved.... Nope, problem just created... They were the same model of bike just not the same edition. The next morning we came in to see the entire clutch had burst and all the rubber parts had expanded to 10 times their normal size. Bike is leaving in 4 hrs on a week long trip... Again fortunately one of our racers has the same bike and owes us flavors like you'd never know. Called him up, he came over with his bike and again fortunately all of his clutch actuation system parts were a perfect match. Swap complete, customer on his ride and all new parts on order. They arrived the day before the customer returned from his trip. We owned it and it all worked out great. People! These minor details matter, do not let anyone tell you close enough is ok with modern vehicles. It is either correct or it aint. It might end up costing you big time. Sherwood! Keep up the great work!
You are to be commended for this video and your entire attitude towards the remedy and customer. I have read some of the BMW techs' comments; it's a shame that you didn't have prior knowledge of the failures. Please do not let the idiots on YT bother you. Y'all do OUTSTANDING work, create great videos. Please continue to do that.
Those front diffs are a common fault. Their is no way the fluid or the tech is to blame. Bearings can run in multiple fluid lubricants along with engine oil. Cant help think the customer got one over you guys. Hope the tech isn't feeling to bad about it. my local manual transmission shop here in the uk recomends some diesel motor oils for manual transmissions. Great channel
Just found this channel, I worked at Sears Auto and an engine shop 20 years ago; I've been working as an aircraft mechanic for the last 20 years now and went to a diesel community college working on tractors, school buses ect. Not working in auto, its impossible for me to know everything. This channel reminds me of the speed channel I use to watch in the 90's. If I could clone myself and work two jobs... this is the shop I would want to work for.... liked the video of the parasitic draw with the infra-red imagery tool, we use this for pneumatic leaks on aircraft. Every technician field is different in someway and I love learning more and more....20 years ago I had a Ford Taurus comeback with front pulsation.... felt it in the steering wheel bad on hard braking no worn steering components and I rarely had comebacks.... three times for me this car! back then we cut rotors and I used the on the car brake lathe to minimize run-out in the hub on the last time rather than the ammaco brake lathe . It was a young girl with a breathalyzer in the car from drinking; I used ceramic pads and the rotors were blue from heat well above machine to spec....Were ceramic pads not a good combo for the Taurus, this girl was hard on the car? It was our raybestos brand and if we didn't have it.. I only used Carquest or napa pads, and I always used sil-glide, brake lube, and zep disk brake quiet and all rust was removed with cookies and wire wheels from the hub. No caliper hangup, balooning brake hose pads even wear; any opinions? I was 20 back then and ended up sending her to the dealer thinking it was a combination valve. Back then I had all my state certification and did sales too when the desk people were lazy...so I sold the job and did the repair, customer service is #1 and they pay your check. They wouldn't answer the phones so I had too.... now look at Sears! After watching your video I now think it may have had a worn wheel bearing/ hub. But I shook down all my vehicles down bc I did all maintenance services and alignments. In Detroit Michigan, my High School was aircraft mechanics and we flew planes as well. I failed my Ase test many times until I passed. Learning so much from your channel keep the content coming... this is better than 📺
Great video. I have said this before and I will say it again. I wish your shop was near me. I would 100% take all of my vehicles to you for any work I needed done. You may have been victim of very inconvenient timing on a part failure or it certainly could have been (and probably was) the incorrect fluid. Regardless of which it was, you stood tall and took the hit. That professional response and remedy will payoff 10 fold. Well done!! The haters are going to hate no matter what you do or say. Keep doing what is morally right and good and you will be blessed. Keep up the good work! (PS. well done on not trashing the tech. We all make mistakes. He/she will never forget this lesson)
Thanks for the follow-up. I appreciate that y'all have taken a stand for the customer and backing up your work. Kudos! This is not just a BMW issue. I'm almost at 48K miles and am about to replace the differential fluid in my '15 Challenger SRT 392 with the Sure Grip (Limited Slip) rear end. Mopar specs a 75W-85 that has the friction modifier already in the fluid for my Challenger. After talking to a couple of Dodge Parts/Service Managers, I learned that the Mopar 75W-85 fluid for the Challenger is different than the Mopar 75W-85 that's used in the Ram trucks and it's different than the Mopar 75W-85 that's used by Jeep. And, that it's important to use the correct one. Seeing this video (and the previous one) makes me feel like I potentially avoided a similar issue by making sure I got the "right" fluid instead of just getting a "close enough" fluid from my neighborhood parts store.
I'm not a BMW expert,but i 've done many diffs in my life. I think this vehicle was already making a noise that went undetected. Even if the wrong oil was added when serviced,it's hard to believe that bearings won't survive more than a day with the wrong oil. Wow. That's another reason why i don't work on european cars. Good thing you're taking care of your customer,whether your tech caused the problem or not.
Valvoline GL-5 75w-90 is the right fluid. "GL-5" means it works with that hypoid gear, which is the "tough" thing to lube, so GL-5 means it has to have lots of phosphorus to handle the load/friction. No way "the wrong fluid" caused this. I would say some normal heap of metal dust, from normal wear before, got kicked up and got lodged into where the tapered roller bearing was, during the drain and fill operation. And, BTW, no way the small difference between 75w-85 and 75w-90 viscosity caused this.
The difference in oil couldn’t have cause the tapered roller bearing to degrade so fast. I would want to get the oil tested to find out if there was a problem with it. Either that or the oil was contaminated with dirt when it was installed.
@@xonerateExactly, when they changed the fluid they got unlucky and some debris within the diff got into the bearing which cooked it, the fluid they put in would have been fine otherwise.
I think this is a possible explanation. The fluid change stirred up some grit and a bearing that was about to fail anyway failed. I would want the new/old fluid to be checked, and Valvoline might be interested enough to do the lab work. They might have had a bad batch sneak out. There might also have been something wrong with the old fluid that when you put in new, good fluid that it created a bad reaction on that roller bearing. They might also want to look at the metallurgy of the bearing rollers and races. I doubt a compatibility issue as that fluid does not look frothy or contaminated. It does look like more than a days driving. In any case, while you are doing the right thing by the customer in taking the blame, I'm nowhere near convinced that you or your tech did anything wrong. As far as flat rate shops, my only issue is that a flat rate is great for a tech who's trained on that job and working on something new and unmolested. I would suggest applying a fudge factor on it for older cars or trucks. When I was working in the industry, my suggestion was 10% additional per year of age. So, a 5 year old truck would get a 50% surcharge in flat rate hours to cover rusted bolts, an inch of greasy road dirt on everything and "someone's been here before".
I am I am a 40 year master ( factory trained Toyota,Datsun/Nissan,Chrysler and BMW) I respect the fact that you acknowledge a comeback. I would be lying if I said that I have never had one. Thank you for your honesty from San Luis Obispo California and a mechanic who’s been there before.
Sorry to comment so much but I am amazed how much hate you got for doing the right thing, I am 72, and was under and beside the cars working on them for years. Rear end oil not correct or never changed will destroy it. Bought my wife a 2005 4wd Ranger with front and rear diffs and transfer case. I spent 1200.00 for a full fluid and 4wd service at a shop that is a 4wd specialist virtually in days of her taking delivery. This was so we could be sure regardless to the other owner's actions we baselined it and made sure it was up to snuff. Keep being who you are, doing what you do the way you do it. It infuriated me some of the comments and support you 100% You are a stand up good man and if I lived near you I assure you your shop would do my work. And YES WAY IT CAN GO THIS WRONG as a real mechanic (me) to all your armchair mechanic detractors they need to sit down and shut up. You are a good righteous man with scruples and integrity and I applauder you so much. Love and all the best from south Alabama.
I've always been anal about using specified fluids but this is hard to believe. I'm inclined to think this was a pre existing condition and the client got it fixed for free. Good on you for taking care of it and making these videos. You've got a business to run and a reputation to uphold. I hope this guy didn't take advantage of that. Keep up the good work.
Sherwood - I believe the additives difference is the key - you are a honest knowledgeable person- you are doing the right thing and explaining it extremely well- we appreciate your attitude and attention to your craft- regards, JPJ
The diff either had the wrong preload on the pinion from the factory or the vehicle has mismatched tires on an Xdrive. Many grenaded Xdrive diffs are from changing only 1 tire or 1 axle set of tires.
Many times the bearing used from the factory just don't last for whatever reason, cheap part, maybe the design is bad, contamination, assembled wrong, who knows but it happens way to offen.
Mismatch on tires is correct Subaru, Honda have issues with AWD due to mismatch tires, poor engineering today is costing every driver, bring back 1960"s cars with pushrod engines.
Ok as a retired Automotive independent garage trainer and vocational teacher thank you for these videos. They make me feel still connected to the field. One of Automotive industries biggest mistakes is you get to a certain age the brain works fine however the body is worn out. Instead of keeping one around to mentor young sharp kids coming in they put you out to pasture. Any way the BMW lube deal has me perplexed. As an AMSOIL dealer for 40 years and with a good connection to the company ,my training says ( Monday Quarterback ) it would have been nice to have a sample of the gear oil that came out of there first. And a sample comparison of Valvoline's gear lube new and the gear lube you collected on the bearing failure. When you get a oil analysis comparison of the BMW spec fluid and the Valvoline Fluid side by side it might give you some better feedback. I also know the guys up at Valvoline and would hope you could have a conversion with them and they would help you out. I had a brand new BMW in 2004 after 100 miles I heard a bearing problem driving and it had a bad Diff outta the factory.
Thanks for doing the update. It was needed because your audience are mostly gearheads who were all left hanging on the edge by the sparse technical info in the original video. I'm a retired mechanical engineer and no stranger to gearbox technologies. I have to agree with everyone who is of the opinion is that it was more likely just bad timing. Rolling-element bearings need very little lubrication and care little about viscosity and nothing about the GL rating. The tapered-roller bearing failure was entirely due to metal particles circulating in the oil when they should have been sequestered by a magnet. Big kudos to your shop for covering the repair costs. Of course you're right that there was no other sensible way out of this.
I ask the question, what would have caused the hard facing to come off the rollers if it was lubricated? No signs of heat of bluing due to a lack of lubrication. the only thing I could think of is too much preload on the bearing????
@@robpinter5431 reviewing the video again I'm wondering if the preload was too low? The damage to one part of every roller looks a bit like the load was unevenly distributed due to the rolling geometry being incorrect. I suspect that the angular contact ball bearing at the other end may have failed first if preload was too high as that type of bearing doesn't have as a high an axial load rating. Over this is still a puzzling failure.
The customer should pay 1/3 the cost of the total repair. Not that I believe it was your shops fault. It’s just fair and you were the last holding the bag. Unless you can prove it wasn’t your fault. Ive had people say ever since you fix my heater my garage door opener doesn’t work right???
Anything is possable, your integrity speaks volumes, I'm in the part's industry in Canada and it's rare to find a shop willing to own up to its own errors, keep up the great work
Shit happens. Mistakes happen. Its a life lesson dealt with professionalism and class that we should all aspire to in this industry. Well done and well said.
Don't let the haters get to you. They are everywhere, especially on the internet. Kudos to you for taking care of the problem regardless of what caused it.
It would be interesting to replace the bad ball bearing and use the 75W-90 oil in the differential and run it to see the results, but I agree with you, tolerances are super close these days to use a different fluid. Good video!
Good stuff taking care of the customer EVEN IF worst case scenario it was a coincidence. Regardless you were the last to touch it and you guys are holding yourself accountable and will get a customer for life. Thank you for going above and beyond. Oh! And also, don’t let the comments get to you! They could be bots! Keep doing what you do day to day.
Both of those fluids meet API GL-5 specifications. They're not that different. Certainly not different enough to cause that much damage that quickly. That bearing was already damaged before you changed the fluid.
Absolutely agree with you, obviously the new fluid washed out these parts nicely and revealed the problem with this bearing, putting in the right fluid would have had the same outcome.
It's difficult not to agree with all the comments about damage caused in just one day. Is there any way when adding the fluid somehow that bad bearing got air bound? I would also like to see an oil analysis. You should send out both the Valvoline and Factory BMW oil to get a chemical brake down. You must do this.
Even as a lube tech, any true professional would verify the oil. Like you said, whether you're flat rate, hybrid, hourly, etc. just do your job. People don't understand the tolerances that components are made with today ask for a special fluid for that very reason. The fact it requires a thinner oil, yes all it could take is a day for it to start crying the way it did. Super informative and thank you for the transparency. Hopefully your tech doesn't get grilled too hard and can bounce back from this speed bump.
I have been binge watching your videos and you are a CLASS ACT!! Your customer are so lucky to have you. Thank you for your service, knowledge and being a great human being. 👍👍
C'mon BMW engineer out there we got to know!! Lake Speed Jr said go for spec of oil first over brand. Said there's only three synthetic base oil companies and 4 additive companies. Get the oil that meets spec people!! Thanks for the tear down and info Sherwood!!
Had an idea, how old was that bottle of Valvoline gear oil?? @motoroilgeek did a video how the anti foam additives drop out of it sits too long. Would love an oil analysis to see if something was wrong with oil
Thank you. This is an great example of a customer focused business practice. It says a lot about the culture of your organization that you are willing to share this as a teaching tool for other shops. While the how and why comments on this video are valid, at the end of the day all that matters to the customer is what you do to address their concern.
I do fluid services. Its the life of the vehicle. People who subscribe to lifetime fluids are lazy or dont have the resources to look up the correct fluid. This channel is one of the best beside South main garage. Lol. Thank you for your time and energy Sherwood.
Sherwood Love your videos. Started watching them on Face Book, and migrated to your TH-cam videos. It never ceases to amaze me how specific German cars, and now all other brands are about fluid types. This video is a wakeup call to all mechanics that fluid type, viscosity, and recommend brand matters!
Please don't feed the trolls. Many commenters are just looking for their own 5 minutes of fame. It's better to just ignore them and connect with your honest and serious viewers. Anybody with an IQ over 80 could tell your video wasn't fake. Keep up the good work, there's a reason SMA trusts your judgement, it's because you're honest and know what you're doing. My thought about the diff was Wow, that's crazy, I wonder what caused that, could it really have been the wrong fluid in just a day? I'm glad you posted this follow-up.
Not sure if the wrong fluid was to blame or not, don't care. The fact that the tech put the wrong fluid in and then it broke means they are on the hook. What really matters is that the customer was taken care of.
I have an NC Miata with 6-speed manual transmission. Some years ago when I changed the trans fluid, I used Redline synthetic of the same viscosity as the factory (Ford) fluid. During the first chilly day after the change, my transmission would grind when shifting into second gear and/or if I shifted from 3rd to 5th gear. It turns out that the best fluid is the factory fluid. After switching back to fresh factory fluid, all grinding stopped. So don't always believe that only viscosity matters.
I don't think the failure is anything relating to your choice of oil. I think it was unfortunate coincidence. But since the timing of failure was very suspicious, I will say hats off to you for repairing this car at your cost.
Many thanks for your interesting and ever so honest channel & content. It's my opinion that your technician did not cause this failure; while he did not use the correct classification for the vehicle in question I believe the car had already suffered bearing failure before the fluid change ever occurred. Aged oil combined wit cavitation and contamination from the bearing surface would have somewhat lessened the viscosity of the oil making it an ever so slightly heavier. When replaced with new oil the bearing lubrication and surface tension was no longer there making the existing failed bearing more audible. Whilst manufactures do specify classifications of lubricants to be used and is always best practice to conform to them; The bearings and lubrication properties of a differential such as this would have run quiet normally within tolerance on your Valvoline oil. There are instances here in Europe where garages use the one oil for all scenario. Not how it should be done granted. But it does work to a point. In this case the failure had already occurred as to if the owner was aware I will leave that to others to decide on. Wishing you all the best.
Already a subscriber before this video, but I would definitely have joined after seeing it. Just a superb attitude for dealing with your clients that's sadly lacking in many shops these days. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Hi Sherwood. I live in Australia. I have a 2019 Mitsubishi Pajero Sport 2.4 diesel. (Montero Sport) Service intervals are 15,000 kms (roughly 10,000 miles) that's too long for me, I do an extra engine oil and filter change plug checks at 7,500 kms..I also get the Transmission serviced by a specialist at 40,000 kms (25,000 miles). Regarding the nay sayers about different oils...YOU ARE 100% CORRECT. Here in Australia I use Penrite fluids..these oils and lubricants exceed all manufacturers requirements. I changed my front and rear differential oils at 50,000 kms (30,000 is miles). Penrite Oils nor any other lubricant manufacturer available had a cross referenced lubricant for this application, despite the oil grade being the same as their products. The differential oil can only be purchased through Mitsubishi and has specific friction modifiers and other additives required to meet Mitsubishi specifications. "WARNING" differential oil not specified "Will void warranty". I have also heard damage has been noted when non specified fluid was used. Love your show and Tech Tips. Kind regards John.
Please keep doing what you’re doing. I am seeing a lot of automotive problems out there and it’s not just coming from outside shops it’s the dealerships as well. I live in the North East and have been in the automotive repair service industry for over 30 years, I’m retired now and just do electrical diagnostics for my clients i only turn wrenches on my own cars. I hear so many horror stories about shops now outside and dealer that it’s becoming a serious problem. You are going to have those critics so just keep doing what you’re doing.
Good video.Good costumer service.That diff started to faill before going to the shop...Fluid is not the reason.What is rest of the state of vehicle?tyres?tyre pressures... But that is the way to treat the costumer,unfortunately these thinks happends in this type of work and you have two ways fix it or leave it... It ends up that you are a goed man and take the loss.But in my mind and in yours i belive i dont think that is your fault. 👍
Thank you for posting. You guys totally did the wright thing here. At the shop I work at we do what we call the final inspection once everything is done e and all test drives are complete. Doesn’t catch everything but it does help. I totally agree that things can quickly go shout with the wrong fluids or the wrong amount of fluid. Med and heavy duty trucks tend to be a little more forgiving than high performs cars.
That’s true. But owning it on TH-cam tells people they are honest and brings in more business. I believe it really happened but it’s also believable was a fake
Having operated a drive line shop along with a service & repair shop I have seen bad luck like this before I definitely know it was nothing to do with your work or the oil some of the things that I have seen are certain European bearings are very brittle & the hardened surface will slowly delaminate if the bearing pre load is too loaded also I recall a certain make of vehicle was notorious for pinion bearing failure that we found the preload from factory was ridiculously high having said that if the oil was to blame the first thing it would have done was to badly scuff the crown wheel & pinion to have just one tapered bearing fail still leads me to believe the failure would have occurred regardless of your work . I put it down to bad luck combined with all of the above . Keep up the good work
Absolute BS. Bought my first BMW in 1989, had it for 10 years and still regret that I sold it, to make way for a new one. Apart from regular services, I only replaced the water pump, clutch kit and a complete new stainless steel exhaust system in year 10. Since then not a day went past that there wasn't a BMW parked in my garrage. Only had a turbo exploding on an almost new 320d once, which was sorted out by BMW the next day. Never had a BMW that left me stranded by the roadside, even limped back home with the one with the blown turbo.
@@dirkfolscher3001😂😂you’re comparing a 35 year old car to a new one with a bunch of computers. These new cars just aren’t built to last like the older ones
Something I learned. A part failure doesn't care if you just left a funeral and headed to work that night. 😢 When it's time, it's time. The fluid had nothing to do with the failure. I've used oil heavier than that in those diffs for years if seeping, not one comeback.
Thanks for sharing and for taking responsibility! Great shop attitude and leadership. I'm lucky to have shops.locally that are honest and fair like you.
First I must say kudos for taking the responsibility although something is fishy here. A bearing is a bearing, so unless you tell me that the only bearing that goes in that diff is BMW proprietary bearing, I can't believe that the "wrong" diff oil can cause it to fail in that short time. It wasn't like he put engine oil there or automatic transmission fluid. If it is above the recommended viscosity, which it is 75-90, don't see how the fluid is to blame. You can also see - on engine oils - the manufacturer usually do not recommend a specific viscosity, it always comes with operating temperature ranges. I think what happened was the pinion bearing was starved of oil, maybe something the tech missed was blocking oil from getting to it, this caused the problem, the customer was lucky you are an honest man and maybe on this case, owned something that was not really your fault. In any case I salute you again for you honesty and responsibility. I believe that this will bring you more blessings in the future. 👍👍👍
The fluid wasn't the issue. BMW bearings are no different than any other. As a retired business owner I do agree with and applaud your decision to repair at no cost. Due to the wrong fluid it was an unwinnable argument with the customer. Your choice shows that you are a reputable shop and today that is rare. 👍for the work and 👍for the videos.
Sherwood, you guys are good folks, and I applaud you for always giving the customer the benefit of the doubt, and showing integrity. Maybe a skill I need to develop again, because here in my market (Miami, FL.) I always doubt everything that comes out of the customer's mouth. That said, I specialize on these cars and I can't tell you how many countless driveline services I've done on BMWs. These diffs aren't picky at all. As long as the fluid is GL5, you're good to go. BMW even allows different viscosities depending on the environment the car lives in. The pinion bearing is a common failure item on these cars. If I haven't done a thousand of them by now, I haven't done one. It was just your lucky day. You NEVER have to pay extortion money to BMW for a diff or even a transfer case. I use a company here in Florida called Cobra Transmission. They sell anything and everything to rebuild the diffs and transfer cases on German cars. I do a front diff overhaul for 2500.00 out the door. That includes removing it and installing it. These diffs are super simple. BMW and Mercedes tend to run open diffs on their non M/AMG cars. They instead use the DSC system to control wheel slippage. That's why the abs systems on these cars are so finicky about speed sensors. I commend you for the integrity, but next time before doing the service. drop all the plastic covers and the metal support plate and give the diff a good back and forth and you would have discovered the failing bearing. This wasn't on you. Good luck ✌🏽
I work with larger industrial bearings. The bearing manufacturer will examine that bearing and determine the failure mode. Our bearing manufacturers have worked with us to recommend lubricant types and lubrication service intervals for our applications based on operating speeds and temperatures. Their recommended parameters have worked well. Just for your info, I'd have that bearing examined.
I love that you threw yourself on the sword and owned up to the damage. All too many in our industry play the game of duck, dodge, and hide looking for ways to get out taking responsibility. I will say, and I think what a lot of comments are pointing to is you are the victim of really bad timing. Kudos to you for taking one for the team, but I agree this failure is hard to imaging givin the time involved. Great video and follow-up guys keep up the good work.
Hey guys I love your videos what I you guys do, I was a tech at bmw for over 10y until 2022. You guys didn’t cause any damage nor the fluid did, these diffs goes bad I have replaced plenty of them under warranty for the same issue. I have my own shop now and I would’ve done the same replace the diff because we worked on it last and less then a day, it’s just unfortunate that happen right after you did the fluid service. Again these diffs front or rear can take any fluid with grater wight as long it has the right approvals
Min 4:01 on this video the tech in background is raising a car with the lift locks released As he gets to the desired height he just stops! Never put the car on the locks! You better school him on that Sherwood.
The first off thank you for the video when I watched the first one I was in disbelief that that could happen within a day. There had been some underlying issue with the bearings to begin with. I have been Twisting the ol iron for 43 years professionally and other than people putting in gear oil instead of dual pump in a Honda I can honestly say I have never experienced gear oil causing that failure so quickly.
Sounds like you were a victim of circumstance. One of those Ripley's Believe It Or Not moments in life. I'm a former SAAB mechanic. The SAAB 99 and 79-85 900 manual transaxles used 75W gear oil. Around 1987 SAAB changed to using 10W30 motor oil in the manual transaxles. They recommended changing earlier gearboxes over to 10W30 motor oil. To go from 75W gear oil to 10W30 motor oil is quite a drastic change in lubricants. We never had a pinion bearing fail in a day after the service. Granted the 5 speed manual boxes were know to suffer pinion bearing failure around the 100k mile mark. I think the bearing was on it's way out and the fluid change was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's not an easy situation in a case like this. The customer brings in a seemingly perfectly functioning car only to have a failure so suddenly of the component they requested the service on. You followed up by examining the amount of fluid and finding out that the manufacturer specifies a specific lubricant that was different from what you put in. It takes a special person to admit that they may have caused the failure and take responsibility. A lot of shops would have thrown the customer to the wind.
The whole country needs a lesson in ethics and accountability not only in the auto repair business. I applaud you for being a stand up guy that stands behind your product and your team. You not only have that customer for life he's going to tell all his friends about his honest mechanic.
I only want to interject that tolerances are so very tight today. When I started working on vehicles back in the 60's, everything ran on 30wt motor oils and 90wt gear oil. Now, when I r and r diff oils from my BMW's, I actually drain it in a clear container to check for possible problems, because I am retired from shop work. I know that is not reality in the shop environment, but that diff could possibly have been ever so marginal before the service. But, thanks for making honest and through video on the subject.
I will admit that it's hard to believe that it was the fault of the oil or that it happened in one day but that's really beside the point and can't be proven 100% either way but the customer is naturally going to come back and think the shop did something wrong somewhere. Most shops that I know would have never taken ownership anyway so good on you for keeping the customer happy even though it's very painful. So good on you!!! Everyone learned a hard lesson for sure!
I find it very hard to believe that the wrong fluid caused that much damage almost immediately. It's more likely that the bearing was shot before it ever came into your shop. You should be commended for taking responsibility for the situation, but I'm convinced it would have happened even if you used the correct fluid. Are you absolutely sure it wasn't making any noise at all prior to you doing the fluid change?
The tech was very adamant it wasn’t making any noise prior. We have to take him at his word, especially when saying it did have noise would be to his benefit.
It was the wrong fluid. BMW calls for Hypoid Differential Fluid which has different properties than normal differential fluid, irrespective of viscosity. Valvoline says they don't have a differential fluid for a BMW M550i (or probably not most BMW's).
Hey mate, I'm a mechanic from Oz and I really appreciate your videos. Respect to you and you buisness for having integrity and taking responsibility for your mistakes even when it costs you. Awesome to see someone in our trade practising what they preach.👍
Watching your videos and I love how professional you handle all of your situations.No huffing just acknowledging that things will happen.I don't believe people understand the amount of pressure the fluid is under and how it dissipates heat.keep up the good work and great job not just paying flat rate but an hourly rate plus.always use the specified fluid
My personal opinion based on 52 years of driving and servicing cars, I call this a very weak gear and bearing system. If it is so terribly sensitive that the bearings fail with the wrong spec oil, it should not be in a vehicle. Unless a LSD seized from not using GL5, I'm not buying it. The lesson to me is avoid owning or servicing BMW at all costs. Toyota/Lexus would not produce something this flaky. Yes, the diff is complete junk, and I feel it was complete junk before the fluid service. BMW junk. I appreciate your posting.
@@TheOnlyKontrol Someone has to do it. I'm saying I would not personally touch something so flaky. Never said I was recommending specialists not service them. I really don't think the shop is at fault here. I think they are a victim of poor engineering and/or part quality.
I worked at a certain dealer that used BG fluid for front and rear differential services, had a span of ten cars come back in short window span that ended up needing all new rear differentials, the word was that batch of BG most recently used didn’t have friction inhibitor additive and that one missing additive was enough to cause that damage, BG footed the bill for them all
I appreciate the honesty, respect, and integrity of this shop greatly. As a fellow business owner, you are doing by far the best customer service and I strive to see more like this.
@@joe1273 You have to enter in the specific vehicle (2021 BMW M550i) and then look at the products they have for that vehicle. Make sure you have selected "Show Only Products That Fit Your Vehicle". When gear oil is selected, you will get a message that says "No products with the applied filters match your vehicle."
The variety of fluids, filters, and parts is indeed overwhelming and seems unnecessary at times. It adds challenges for both vehicle owners and repair shop owners who must stock a wide range of inventory, often due to manufacturers’ specific requirements. Sherwood’s videos sound informative and practical, especially when discussing alignment, oil filters, and diagnostics. His approach to being transparent and straightforward with customers is refreshing, and you’re right-it builds trust and long-term relationships, which can help any business thrive.
BMW's require Hypoid Gear Oil that contain special extreme pressure and anti-wear additives that increase its resistance to breakdown under the high temperatures and mechanical pressure produced by the sliding surfaces of a hypoid gearbox.
@@dB_944 The bottom line is that Valvoline says they do not have a gear/differential oil for that BMW (and probably most other BMW's). The BMW differential oil is specifically labeled "BMW G4 Hypoid Differential Fluid - Genuine BMW."
Hello guys, I am a retired engineer from GKN ePowertrain. We are the manufacturer of that front RDM (front diff assembly). First of all I love your channel. At the facility in Newton NC where it’s built, we manufacture both ring and pinion and then welded ring gear to diff assembly. Then they go to our assembly line. First of all you are very correct that there is a very proprietary additive package in the oil that is in there. It is so proprietary that BMW doesn’t tell us what is in it. Whole unit is of BMW design, not. GKN design. They just have us manufacturing them with our proprietary processes of machining, laser welding and assembly. We along with BMW basically call it a lifetime fill but truthfully it could use a fluid charge around 60K to 70K depending on several things. What I can’t remember if it has a magnetic drain plug or not, if so was there debris on it?. There is on more possible answer that I know has happened before but very difficult to find or prove. I will try to explain…during processing of the firing and pinion set, one step is that every ring and pinion set are lapped together in very special machines. That lapping compound is silicon carbide in an oil suspension. It’s 220 grit equivalent. Set’s are then washed in pair in special custom washers. Then placed in another machine for testing. Then washed again. There have been instances where and small glob of lapping compound get stuck and hardens in the root of pinion teeth. If that was possible case and during you fluid change it came loose. It can and will compromise the pinion head bearing has you showed. If that Valvoline had heavy detergent additive in it it could have actually was said compound out into the bearing since the head bearing is directly behind pinion head. And it doesn’t take much to ruin that bearing. You would never see any gear tooth damage either as they were lapped anyway. Again. I am just speculating as I was not there with you to analyze the diff. In 23 years working there and lead most if not all design and manufacturing phases, I have seem thousands of those go out the door
Lab work on the oil that came out would show the lapping compound as a contaminant. So, as long as the oil was saved after the video was made this might still be provable. How many parts per million of that silicon carbide compound were in the oil would be measurable.
@@bobmazzi7435correct but again I don’t know if they saved or tested original oil.
@@ljcardea4 I'm talking about the oil that was in it when it failed. If that shows lapping compound at anything over trace levels, your idea of a lump that was dislodged, either by the oil change, or by the better detergents. I'm assuming the "original" oil went into the sump with a hundred gallons of oils from other cars. However, that oil was probably OK as far as lapping compound or the bearing would have failed long before. That oil is what I'd want to test for bearing materials, iron, chrome and nickel.
Based on your credentials and the way walked us through the lapping process, I would say this is most likely what happened, thanks for sharing.
@ljcardea4 I would have to agree with you, especially on the additive package and the possibility of the compound. The clearances may be so tight that the lack of the additives caused the problem, and if there was something that came loose could have caused this also. I found out about additives in the late 70s when I built a posi-track for my Mustang and didn't know of the Ford additive needed for it. When I took the car out for the first test drive it made a popping in the rear-end when I made a turn so I immediately parked the car and went to the Ford parts counter and asked about it. That is when I learned about the additive. Not knowing how many miles the customer drove the car, it could have easily damaged the diff in a day. Unfortunately for Sherwood, this may never be solved and could have just been bad luck. I have to say, Sherwood is the person that everyone should strive to be.
Well done, you answered all the negative comments, maybe you and your team were unlucky with the timing of the bearing failure, but you owned the end result and rectified it. I have nothing but respect for you and your company.
I find it incredible that someone would accuse you of faking a video in which you admit you made a major mistake. No business owner would risk damaging their reputation just for a few clicks and likes on TH-cam. You can't win with some people. It doesn't matter how honest you are. They will still find a way to criticise you. Best thing to do is to point at them and laugh.
That bearing was failing prior to you servicing the front diff ..its exemplary that you stood behind your work .I have used the the valvoline oil on BMW front diffs and never had an issue ,am a retired BMW tech with 38 years experience on BMW
Hello Sherwood, Save the pinion bearing and knock the outer race out of the housing and give it to your Valvoline rep and save some of the oil and have them do a breakdown analysis of the bearing. I'm retired now but we have a couple guys at work that do vibration analysis on our equipment and are always inspecting bearings on failed equipment. I'm sure Valvoline has the resources to do this for you. We used Mobile products, and they did it for us if we asked. We also did it ourselves in house, I'd have to agree that the damage was already done, and you were unlucky to have been the last to touch it. too bad you don't have a sample of the old oil from when you performed the service. I bet if you had it analyzed it would show the problem had started before you serviced it. I applaud you for taking care of your customer. I hope they spread the word around on how well you treated them. You know they would have told 100 people or more how you broke it and didn't back up your work.
Hang in there, it will be a better day tomorrow
Dave Szydlo
(Retired NPPC 41 years.)
I second this. When packaging blended lubricants there is absolutely a chance for wrong product to pushed into the filling line. You never know these days....as every company has trouble finding people that care for an hourly wage.
Is it possible the tech did not look for glitter in the old fluid that was drained from the dif? Or missed seeing it if he did look?
If a shop is going to recommend fluid service, they better be good at documenting the condition of the removed fluid and report fluid condition to the customer. They also better have the OEM fluid for the refill. Epic Fail!!
Plus, we (viewers) still DID NOT learn anything from this., as we still don't know why that bearing failed.
Difference between 85 and 90 is ~6%. Difference between 16 and 20 is 20%. Both are small numbers (4 or 5 visc points). The second example is a 20% difference though, no longer a small number.
How would a regular neighborhood shop make money fixing know common factory defects for free just because they were last to touch it? Yeah happy customers but most would go broke because everyday some customer is blaming them for a problem, ever since you did my brakes the engine doesn't run right.
ACCOUNTABILITY. A lot of people have lost this. To touch on the flat rate you are 1000% right. I’m a painter at a collision shop and with flat rate you definitely have to take the good with the bad, but at the end of the month you definitely get more good than bad. Well said Sherwood! Your videos are great and honest. Keep it up 👍🏻
*_"flat rate you are 1000% right. I’m a painter at a collision shop and with flat rate you definitely have to take the good with the bad, but at the end of the month you definitely get more good than bad."_*
Unless you're not particularly good at what you do - so if you're not coming out on top, you might want to consider a change of career!
Props to this garage service for taking responsibility and owning mistake without a fuss so rare in today's world. I'd say u made a lifetime customer out of that guy. Much respect 💯
My input on this failure.1) that’s a very economical design of diff,ball races as opposed to taper rollers.2) the bearing doesn’t look like it got hot,so usurer didn’t suffer to lack of lubrication. 3) taper bearing don’t like any debris’s between their surface due to contact area. My conclusion would be the diff was already failing and the process of the oil change disturbed of all ready present debris. You could send that oil off to Valvoline for testing I’m sure they would be interested. Keep up the good work boys.
I think it is over engineered and either has too much stress for the bearing, you have a wide bearing, and the wear is not even. Also, the oil may not have gotten to the bearing, they did put the heaviest fluid in, and it may take the lightest or something closer to trans fluid. You put that heavy gear oil into an engine it will have damage even if the pump could handle the oil and it was above 70F, cold temperatures do not seem to be a factor. I would suspect it is more a viscosity issue over additives, high moly I don't think would make that much of a difference the rest of the additives are for life and quality of oil over time. The BMW fluid is a black box, and its viscosity probably could only be determined with a refrigerated fluid pour test, if they used the lightest vs heaviest oil it may have worked though maybe not if it is closer to trans fluid.
This is a pretty convincing analysis.
As both an engineer and a mechanic I totally agree with your analysis. I have seen far to many times where a fluid change disturbs existing debris and then the long term wear pop's up suddenly.
High mileage automatic transmissions have a similar reverse problem. The transmission clutch packs are rather worn and its the grit and the debis in the fluid that is making them hold. Do a total transmission flush (or several drains and fills to get rid of most of the old fluid with the debris) and the clutch packs start to slip - leading to usually a $2-$4000 transmission job; which the customer will likely blame on the fluid service just provided unless you explain things clearly up front, and the risk, before the start of the job.
@@perryallan3524 totally agree
No need to change that fluid at 35k miles.
Good evening, sir, I’ve been in Mechanic for the past 45 years sorry for any misspell’s. This is voice text. I agree I would 100% take responsibility, especially after one day. And I don’t disagree that you didn’t put exactly the same fluid that they called for into it. But are we sure that enough test drive with the radio off and no AC and a smooth road was done to make sure there was no noise. That bearing could’ve been on the verge of failing and no one caught it. And I wouldn’t run that by the client, because it looks like your CYA. But I just cannot see how that those two different oils are so dissimilar that the improper oil can cause the diff to fail that quick. I think I believe that that thing was on its way out, and no one heard it. But I agree with the way you solved the problem, and I have total respect for the way you run your operation.
when Shops are busy often there is no time to commence a PWI or Pre-Work Inspection.
I'm a wrench of 40 years.i have never seen more honesty and integrity!! The diff was already trashed and customer knew it.
I'm not sure if your watched the whole video but you're wrong about the customer. Customer did nothing wrong at all. The shop recommended the service not the customer. So either the diff was going bad and the fluid change was the final straw, the wrong fluid causes more damage than you realize or it was a combination of those things. But the customer didn't ask for the service and Sherwood's point is that if your first instinct is to blame the customer than you're doing it wrong.
That’s my thought as well, I played them like a Fidel.
@@TheUkfan69the fluid absolutely didn’t cause this, bad luck did.
@@alanmeyers3957 Irrelevant and if you had done the work like this and didn't correct it you'd be the type of shop he's talking about. His shop recommended the service, put wrong fluid in and then immediately had issues. Doesn't matter if it's just bad luck. They fixed it so good on them but bad on every commenter that keeps commenting irrelevant or incorrect stuff about it.
I think you guy were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Parts are made like crap now a days, you got screwed and rectified the problem very professionally.
Good on you and your company for taking responsibility and keeping that customer happy. Word of mouth, and social media, are huge.
Sherwood you are too much of a gentleman to address some of those posters properly. They are simply malcontents. Their lack of critical thinking skills clearly show. They also never signed the front of a check. No reason in the world with your reputation why you would make a fake video for likes or views. We share the earth with odd thinking people. We all see them everyday especially in the comment section. Thank you and your staff for showing the good the bad and the ugly. We all can learn from this.
Absolutely a preexisting condition. That tapered timkin style bearing is the same material and spec as any other diff. The fluid your tech installed is fine for that bearing. I would say that the BMW fluid has properties that are compatible with the non metalic cage on those ball bearings.
I agree with you on non metallic cages.
This seems like a shop where I would want to travel multiple states to bring my car. 😄
Fact
Yes! I'm willing to travel from NYC to put my vehicle in the hands of this shop.
Nice to see an honest shop fixing their issues. However, if the fluids were both GL-5 rated either would be appropriate in my opinion. The differential looks poorly designed with the split case and I have had the same issue with the pinion bearing going bad. In both cases it was a piece of cast flashing from the housing that broke off and fell into the bearing. Your mechanic was just the poor guy who was in the right place at the wrong time when the bomb went off.
This sounds right on the mark!
Sherwood, after watching this video over a dozen times I don't think the damage to the roller bearing is the root cause of the problem. In all of my years working in industry I have never seen a roller bearing wear in such a way as to produce a clicking type binding. The clicking here is symmetrical and even. The most common way you would get this in a roller bearing would be if the race had a crack in it and the crack opened up. However, the wear pattern on the rollers do not show an impact wear pattern but a consistent circumference wear pattern about 1/16 of an inch from the top of the rollers. Also the tops of the rollers show no wear. The most severe wear pattern is about 1/16 of an inch from the top of each roller. This looks like the roller cage has been pushed out of its race towards the back end of the pinion. This causes the rollers to run on the edge of the race not the full surface.. Most of the load is then concentrated on a small portion of the rollers causing the narrow wear pattern on each roller. From the video it looks like the problem is caused from the front ball bearing and race. If you look at the front ball bearing closely you will see impact scars on the circumference of each ball in a circular pattern. This would indicate that the ball is falling into a hole smaller than the ball causing the scar. If you look inside of the race area you will see what looks like a hole at the 3 o'clock position. You will also see circumference scars on the race just after the hole on the right side of the race. Not sure what the race is made of or if there is even a race installed. The ball bearings may be riding on the housing. It is hard to tell from the video. If you look where the front ball bearing sits on the pinion shaft you will see a circular wear pattern on the shaft and what looks like a blackening of the shaft. This looks like the front ball bearing inner cage was spinning on the pinion shaft instead of being stationary on the shaft. Looking at all of this is why you are getting the clicking and binding when you turn the pinion slowly. As each ball enters this hole on the right side of the housing it gets stuck a little until you turn the pinion further and the next ball contacts the hole and so on. This acts like the detents on a camera lens when you change the "F" stop settings. The faster you turn, the less of a binding you will feel. The slower you turn the more you feel each ball enter the hole. Not sure what this hole is for or if some kind of plug was there that fell out, since I can't see the right side of the housing. Since this pinion is somewhat floating in the longitudinal direction, this could have caused the shaft to move backwards a little pushing the roller bearing slightly out of its race. To me it looks like the noise is mostly coming from the front ball bearing. You could test for this by using a stethoscope and moving from the roller bearing to the front ball bearing and seeing where the noise is the loudest. Also if you look at the front of the housing at the 6 o'clock position you will see a very small hole drilled through to the front race area. Not sure what this tiny hole is for or if it has any function. As far as the oil is concerned, both the BMW oil and the Valvoline are API rated GL5. According to the API any oil rated GL5 is compatible with another GL5 oil of another manufacturer since they have to meet the same specifications. The only other factor is if the BMW oil had on its label that it was fortified with an additive such as Moly or Boron etc. or some proprietary additive that is necessary for use in their cars. I could not see that on the label because of the lighting in the video. I think your mechanic or your shop did not do anything wrong servicing this BMW. It may be a manufacturing defect on BMW's end since the car had only 35K miles on it. I hope you still have the differential since BMW may owe you the cost of this repair.
Nailed it. I wish I could "ultra" like this comment. Not the fault of the fluid.
I'm a shade tree mechanic and when the damage was shown on screen compared to what was in the replaced oil, I said the amount of mass just doesn't add up. The previous oil had to have a huge amount of contaminant. The mistake here was the tech did not inspect the old oil.
Mistake was in BMW manufacturing and tech only can do is to report potential issue and nothing else.!@AaronBlankenship
Sherwood. I am a motorcycle tech, nearly 30 yrs. Japanese bikes mainly and since they have evolved into rolling computers the similarities with automobiles they are getting very close in how they are serviced and repaired, they have become very sensitive to fluids and voltages. Many times I have seen bad grounds cause major issues. The spider grounds are just nuts on modern bikes. But the problems that can occur when you get a fluid replacement wrong, they can be massive. There was a shaft drive motorcycle built in the 90s until 2010s, they were shaft driven. There was a fairly small batch that were shipped with standard 80/90w gear oil, most of them that did not have the correct gear oil replaced at PDI failed exactly as the BMW diff in this video. The bearings let go completely, beginning with the bearing cage completely disintegrating and in turn destroying the rest of the assembly. The problem was that the oil was not of the hypoid rated gear oil. Another major fluid issue Ive seen was caused by incorrect brake fluid. Normally dot 4 or 5 in most motorcycles is assumed to be good, most of the time the filler cap indicates what is correct. Not so easy with European or Italian motorcycles. Some of the bikes that are not Japanese can use one of or a combination of DOT, mineral and silicone. None of which are compatible with each other including the systems they are used in. Customer brings a KTM in for a pre-road trip service, a fairly large service at that. Almost every wear item replaced including all fluids. Aftermarket cap on the clutch fluid reservoir no fluid type info on it. Obviously Amazon thinks fluid types are irrelevant, so it is just a shiny hunk of crap that's of no help to the tech. Fortunately there was another KTM of the same model parked in the lot, tech goes out and looks, ok the cap says DOT5. Problem solved.... Nope, problem just created... They were the same model of bike just not the same edition. The next morning we came in to see the entire clutch had burst and all the rubber parts had expanded to 10 times their normal size. Bike is leaving in 4 hrs on a week long trip... Again fortunately one of our racers has the same bike and owes us flavors like you'd never know. Called him up, he came over with his bike and again fortunately all of his clutch actuation system parts were a perfect match. Swap complete, customer on his ride and all new parts on order. They arrived the day before the customer returned from his trip. We owned it and it all worked out great. People! These minor details matter, do not let anyone tell you close enough is ok with modern vehicles. It is either correct or it aint. It might end up costing you big time. Sherwood! Keep up the great work!
Thanks for the update video and for owning up and taking care of the customer, whether it was a pre-existing issue or not!
Live a life of truth and honesty. You are doing just that, and many can learn from you. Thank you.
You are to be commended for this video and your entire attitude towards the remedy and customer.
I have read some of the BMW techs' comments; it's a shame that you didn't have prior knowledge of the failures.
Please do not let the idiots on YT bother you. Y'all do OUTSTANDING work, create great videos. Please continue to do that.
Really diggin' this format with the comments from a previous video! That's a rare treat in the world of TH-cam.
Those front diffs are a common fault. Their is no way the fluid or the tech is to blame. Bearings can run in multiple fluid lubricants along with engine oil.
Cant help think the customer got one over you guys. Hope the tech isn't feeling to bad about it. my local manual transmission shop here in the uk recomends some diesel motor oils for manual transmissions. Great channel
Just found this channel, I worked at Sears Auto and an engine shop 20 years ago; I've been working as an aircraft mechanic for the last 20 years now and went to a diesel community college working on tractors, school buses ect. Not working in auto, its impossible for me to know everything. This channel reminds me of the speed channel I use to watch in the 90's. If I could clone myself and work two jobs... this is the shop I would want to work for.... liked the video of the parasitic draw with the infra-red imagery tool, we use this for pneumatic leaks on aircraft. Every technician field is different in someway and I love learning more and more....20 years ago I had a Ford Taurus comeback with front pulsation.... felt it in the steering wheel bad on hard braking no worn steering components and I rarely had comebacks.... three times for me this car! back then we cut rotors and I used the on the car brake lathe to minimize run-out in the hub on the last time rather than the ammaco brake lathe . It was a young girl with a breathalyzer in the car from drinking; I used ceramic pads and the rotors were blue from heat well above machine to spec....Were ceramic pads not a good combo for the Taurus, this girl was hard on the car? It was our raybestos brand and if we didn't have it.. I only used Carquest or napa pads, and I always used sil-glide, brake lube, and zep disk brake quiet and all rust was removed with cookies and wire wheels from the hub. No caliper hangup, balooning brake hose pads even wear; any opinions? I was 20 back then and ended up sending her to the dealer thinking it was a combination valve. Back then I had all my state certification and did sales too when the desk people were lazy...so I sold the job and did the repair, customer service is #1 and they pay your check. They wouldn't answer the phones so I had too.... now look at Sears! After watching your video I now think it may have had a worn wheel bearing/ hub. But I shook down all my vehicles down bc I did all maintenance services and alignments. In Detroit Michigan, my High School was aircraft mechanics and we flew planes as well. I failed my Ase test many times until I passed. Learning so much from your channel keep the content coming... this is better than 📺
Glade to see there are some reputable people out there stand behind their own work and take care of their customers no matter what.
Ya but the customer took care of you big time
Great video. I have said this before and I will say it again. I wish your shop was near me. I would 100% take all of my vehicles to you for any work I needed done. You may have been victim of very inconvenient timing on a part failure or it certainly could have been (and probably was) the incorrect fluid. Regardless of which it was, you stood tall and took the hit. That professional response and remedy will payoff 10 fold. Well done!! The haters are going to hate no matter what you do or say. Keep doing what is morally right and good and you will be blessed. Keep up the good work! (PS. well done on not trashing the tech. We all make mistakes. He/she will never forget this lesson)
Murphys law..what can go wrong will go wrong..that bearing was on its way. Noise or not. Glad you guys are honest and teach along the way.
This also makes sense besides my comment
Thanks for the follow-up. I appreciate that y'all have taken a stand for the customer and backing up your work. Kudos!
This is not just a BMW issue. I'm almost at 48K miles and am about to replace the differential fluid in my '15 Challenger SRT 392 with the Sure Grip (Limited Slip) rear end. Mopar specs a 75W-85 that has the friction modifier already in the fluid for my Challenger. After talking to a couple of Dodge Parts/Service Managers, I learned that the Mopar 75W-85 fluid for the Challenger is different than the Mopar 75W-85 that's used in the Ram trucks and it's different than the Mopar 75W-85 that's used by Jeep. And, that it's important to use the correct one.
Seeing this video (and the previous one) makes me feel like I potentially avoided a similar issue by making sure I got the "right" fluid instead of just getting a "close enough" fluid from my neighborhood parts store.
I'm not a BMW expert,but i 've done many diffs in my life. I think this vehicle was already making a noise that went undetected. Even if the wrong oil was added when serviced,it's hard to believe that bearings won't survive more than a day with the wrong oil. Wow. That's another reason why i don't work on european cars. Good thing you're taking care of your customer,whether your tech caused the problem or not.
I agree, but by using the "wrong" fluid, they left themselves wide open.
Valvoline GL-5 75w-90 is the right fluid. "GL-5" means it works with that hypoid gear, which is the "tough" thing to lube, so GL-5 means it has to have lots of phosphorus to handle the load/friction.
No way "the wrong fluid" caused this.
I would say some normal heap of metal dust, from normal wear before, got kicked up and got lodged into where the tapered roller bearing was, during the drain and fill operation. And, BTW, no way the small difference between 75w-85 and 75w-90 viscosity caused this.
The difference in oil couldn’t have cause the tapered roller bearing to degrade so fast. I would want to get the oil tested to find out if there was a problem with it. Either that or the oil was contaminated with dirt when it was installed.
75w-90 is a thicker Oil, And Clearances look mighty tight in that Diff.
@@xoneratepinion bearings are bought not made and preload would be fairly close access all the mfg. so I don’t see that
@@xonerateExactly, when they changed the fluid they got unlucky and some debris within the diff got into the bearing which cooked it, the fluid they put in would have been fine otherwise.
I think this is a possible explanation. The fluid change stirred up some grit and a bearing that was about to fail anyway failed.
I would want the new/old fluid to be checked, and Valvoline might be interested enough to do the lab work. They might have had a bad batch sneak out. There might also have been something wrong with the old fluid that when you put in new, good fluid that it created a bad reaction on that roller bearing. They might also want to look at the metallurgy of the bearing rollers and races. I doubt a compatibility issue as that fluid does not look frothy or contaminated. It does look like more than a days driving.
In any case, while you are doing the right thing by the customer in taking the blame, I'm nowhere near convinced that you or your tech did anything wrong.
As far as flat rate shops, my only issue is that a flat rate is great for a tech who's trained on that job and working on something new and unmolested. I would suggest applying a fudge factor on it for older cars or trucks. When I was working in the industry, my suggestion was 10% additional per year of age. So, a 5 year old truck would get a 50% surcharge in flat rate hours to cover rusted bolts, an inch of greasy road dirt on everything and "someone's been here before".
I am
I am a 40 year master ( factory trained Toyota,Datsun/Nissan,Chrysler and BMW) I respect the fact that you acknowledge a comeback. I would be lying if I said that I have never had one. Thank you for your honesty from San Luis Obispo California and a mechanic who’s been there before.
Sorry to comment so much but I am amazed how much hate you got for doing the right thing, I am 72, and was under and beside the cars working on them for years. Rear end oil not correct or never changed will destroy it. Bought my wife a 2005 4wd Ranger with front and rear diffs and transfer case. I spent 1200.00 for a full fluid and 4wd service at a shop that is a 4wd specialist virtually in days of her taking delivery. This was so we could be sure regardless to the other owner's actions we baselined it and made sure it was up to snuff.
Keep being who you are, doing what you do the way you do it. It infuriated me some of the comments and support you 100% You are a stand up good man and if I lived near you I assure you your shop would do my work.
And YES WAY IT CAN GO THIS WRONG as a real mechanic (me) to all your armchair mechanic detractors they need to sit down and shut up. You are a good righteous man with scruples and integrity and I applauder you so much. Love and all the best from south Alabama.
I've always been anal about using specified fluids but this is hard to believe. I'm inclined to think this was a pre existing condition and the client got it fixed for free. Good on you for taking care of it and making these videos. You've got a business to run and a reputation to uphold. I hope this guy didn't take advantage of that. Keep up the good work.
Sherwood - I believe the additives difference is the key - you are a honest knowledgeable person- you are doing the right thing and explaining it extremely well- we appreciate your attitude and attention to your craft- regards, JPJ
The diff either had the wrong preload on the pinion from the factory or the vehicle has mismatched tires on an Xdrive. Many grenaded Xdrive diffs are from changing only 1 tire or 1 axle set of tires.
Many times the bearing used from the factory just don't last for whatever reason, cheap part, maybe the design is bad, contamination, assembled wrong, who knows but it happens way to offen.
Mismatch on tires is correct Subaru, Honda have issues with AWD due to mismatch tires, poor engineering today is costing every driver, bring back 1960"s cars with pushrod engines.
Damage occurs to the transfer with mis matching tyres
Ok as a retired Automotive independent garage trainer and vocational teacher thank you for these videos. They make me feel still connected to the field. One of Automotive industries biggest mistakes is you get to a certain age the brain works fine however the body is worn out. Instead of keeping one around to mentor young sharp kids coming in they put you out to pasture. Any way the BMW lube deal has me perplexed. As an AMSOIL dealer for 40 years and with a good connection to the company ,my training says ( Monday Quarterback ) it would have been nice to have a sample of the gear oil that came out of there first. And a sample comparison of Valvoline's gear lube new and the gear lube you collected on the bearing failure. When you get a oil analysis comparison of the BMW spec fluid and the Valvoline Fluid side by side it might give you some better feedback. I also know the guys up at Valvoline and would hope you could have a conversion with them and they would help you out. I had a brand new BMW in 2004 after 100 miles I heard a bearing problem driving and it had a bad Diff outta the factory.
Thanks for doing the update. It was needed because your audience are mostly gearheads who were all left hanging on the edge by the sparse technical info in the original video. I'm a retired mechanical engineer and no stranger to gearbox technologies. I have to agree with everyone who is of the opinion is that it was more likely just bad timing. Rolling-element bearings need very little lubrication and care little about viscosity and nothing about the GL rating. The tapered-roller bearing failure was entirely due to metal particles circulating in the oil when they should have been sequestered by a magnet. Big kudos to your shop for covering the repair costs. Of course you're right that there was no other sensible way out of this.
I ask the question, what would have caused the hard facing to come off the rollers if it was lubricated? No signs of heat of bluing due to a lack of lubrication. the only thing I could think of is too much preload on the bearing????
@@robpinter5431 reviewing the video again I'm wondering if the preload was too low? The damage to one part of every roller looks a bit like the load was unevenly distributed due to the rolling geometry being incorrect. I suspect that the angular contact ball bearing at the other end may have failed first if preload was too high as that type of bearing doesn't have as a high an axial load rating. Over this is still a puzzling failure.
The customer should pay 1/3 the cost of the total repair. Not that I believe it was your shops fault. It’s just fair and you were the last holding the bag. Unless you can prove it wasn’t your fault. Ive had people say ever since you fix my heater my garage door opener doesn’t work right???
Anything is possable, your integrity speaks volumes, I'm in the part's industry in Canada and it's rare to find a shop willing to own up to its own errors, keep up the great work
Shit happens. Mistakes happen. Its a life lesson dealt with professionalism and class that we should all aspire to in this industry. Well done and well said.
Don't let the haters get to you. They are everywhere, especially on the internet. Kudos to you for taking care of the problem regardless of what caused it.
It would be interesting to replace the bad ball bearing and use the 75W-90 oil in the differential and run it to see the results, but I agree with you, tolerances are super close these days to use a different fluid. Good video!
Good stuff taking care of the customer EVEN IF worst case scenario it was a coincidence. Regardless you were the last to touch it and you guys are holding yourself accountable and will get a customer for life. Thank you for going above and beyond. Oh! And also, don’t let the comments get to you! They could be bots! Keep doing what you do day to day.
Both of those fluids meet API GL-5 specifications. They're not that different. Certainly not different enough to cause that much damage that quickly. That bearing was already damaged before you changed the fluid.
Look at the Clearances in that Diff.
Absolutely agree with you, obviously the new fluid washed out these parts nicely and revealed the problem with this bearing, putting in the right fluid would have had the same outcome.
It's difficult not to agree with all the comments about damage caused in just one day. Is there any way when adding the fluid somehow that bad bearing got air bound? I would also like to see an oil analysis. You should send out both the Valvoline and Factory BMW oil to get a chemical brake down. You must do this.
Sure Jan, LOL. U don't have a clue.....
Even as a lube tech, any true professional would verify the oil. Like you said, whether you're flat rate, hybrid, hourly, etc. just do your job. People don't understand the tolerances that components are made with today ask for a special fluid for that very reason. The fact it requires a thinner oil, yes all it could take is a day for it to start crying the way it did. Super informative and thank you for the transparency. Hopefully your tech doesn't get grilled too hard and can bounce back from this speed bump.
it just shows how accurate you need to be doing this stuff, the materials and tolerances used today are no joke.
In some areas I’d agree but on a tapered roller bearing? It will be a standard part used in thousands of applications.
I have been binge watching your videos and you are a CLASS ACT!! Your customer are so lucky to have you. Thank you for your service, knowledge and being a great human being. 👍👍
Thanks for watching and the kind words! We appreciate it!
C'mon BMW engineer out there we got to know!! Lake Speed Jr said go for spec of oil first over brand. Said there's only three synthetic base oil companies and 4 additive companies. Get the oil that meets spec people!! Thanks for the tear down and info Sherwood!!
Had an idea, how old was that bottle of Valvoline gear oil?? @motoroilgeek did a video how the anti foam additives drop out of it sits too long. Would love an oil analysis to see if something was wrong with oil
@bigdaddymak1439 the motor oil geek video clearly stated that additives do NOT drop out of suspension in oil.
@@thatrealba go watch his video on old oil
@@thatrealba Wrong. He showed that they do and that mixing them back in doesn't work.
How old are we talking?
Thank you. This is an great example of a customer focused business practice. It says a lot about the culture of your organization that you are willing to share this as a teaching tool for other shops. While the how and why comments on this video are valid, at the end of the day all that matters to the customer is what you do to address their concern.
I do fluid services. Its the life of the vehicle. People who subscribe to lifetime fluids are lazy or dont have the resources to look up the correct fluid. This channel is one of the best beside South main garage. Lol. Thank you for your time and energy Sherwood.
Sherwood
Love your videos. Started watching them on Face Book, and migrated to your TH-cam videos. It never ceases to amaze me how specific German cars, and now all other brands are about fluid types. This video is a wakeup call to all mechanics that fluid type, viscosity, and recommend brand matters!
I would check the TSB's on that vin for factory issues on that diff. Good work trying to go after this issue thanks!
Please don't feed the trolls. Many commenters are just looking for their own 5 minutes of fame. It's better to just ignore them and connect with your honest and serious viewers. Anybody with an IQ over 80 could tell your video wasn't fake. Keep up the good work, there's a reason SMA trusts your judgement, it's because you're honest and know what you're doing. My thought about the diff was Wow, that's crazy, I wonder what caused that, could it really have been the wrong fluid in just a day? I'm glad you posted this follow-up.
Not sure if the wrong fluid was to blame or not, don't care. The fact that the tech put the wrong fluid in and then it broke means they are on the hook. What really matters is that the customer was taken care of.
I have an NC Miata with 6-speed manual transmission. Some years ago when I changed the trans fluid, I used Redline synthetic of the same viscosity as the factory (Ford) fluid.
During the first chilly day after the change, my transmission would grind when shifting into second gear and/or if I shifted from 3rd to 5th gear.
It turns out that the best fluid is the factory fluid. After switching back to fresh factory fluid, all grinding stopped.
So don't always believe that only viscosity matters.
I don't think the failure is anything relating to your choice of oil. I think it was unfortunate coincidence. But since the timing of failure was very suspicious, I will say hats off to you for repairing this car at your cost.
I for one appreciate the high integrity demonstrated in the way you guys operate your business. Thanks for the video and the subsequent follow up.
Many thanks for your interesting and ever so honest channel & content. It's my opinion that your technician did not cause this failure; while he did not use the correct classification for the vehicle in question I believe the car had already suffered bearing failure before the fluid change ever occurred. Aged oil combined wit cavitation and contamination from the bearing surface would have somewhat lessened the viscosity of the oil making it an ever so slightly heavier. When replaced with new oil the bearing lubrication and surface tension was no longer there making the existing failed bearing more audible. Whilst manufactures do specify classifications of lubricants to be used and is always best practice to conform to them; The bearings and lubrication properties of a differential such as this would have run quiet normally within tolerance on your Valvoline oil. There are instances here in Europe where garages use the one oil for all scenario. Not how it should be done granted. But it does work to a point.
In this case the failure had already occurred as to if the owner was aware I will leave that to others to decide on.
Wishing you all the best.
Already a subscriber before this video, but I would definitely have joined after seeing it. Just a superb attitude for dealing with your clients that's sadly lacking in many shops these days. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Hi Sherwood.
I live in Australia.
I have a 2019 Mitsubishi Pajero Sport 2.4 diesel. (Montero Sport)
Service intervals are 15,000 kms (roughly 10,000 miles) that's too long for me, I do an extra engine oil and filter change plug checks at 7,500 kms..I also get the Transmission serviced by a specialist at 40,000 kms (25,000 miles).
Regarding the nay sayers about different oils...YOU ARE 100% CORRECT.
Here in Australia I use Penrite fluids..these oils and lubricants exceed all manufacturers requirements.
I changed my front and rear differential oils at 50,000 kms (30,000 is miles).
Penrite Oils nor any other lubricant manufacturer available had a cross referenced lubricant for this application, despite the oil grade being the same as their products.
The differential oil can only be purchased through Mitsubishi and has specific friction modifiers and other additives required to meet Mitsubishi specifications.
"WARNING" differential oil not specified "Will void warranty".
I have also heard damage has been noted when non specified fluid was used.
Love your show and Tech Tips.
Kind regards
John.
Please keep doing what you’re doing. I am seeing a lot of automotive problems out there and it’s not just coming from outside shops it’s the dealerships as well. I live in the North East and have been in the automotive repair service industry for over 30 years, I’m retired now and just do electrical diagnostics for my clients i only turn wrenches on my own cars. I hear so many horror stories about shops now outside and dealer that it’s becoming a serious problem. You are going to have those critics so just keep doing what you’re doing.
Good video.Good costumer service.That diff started to faill before going to the shop...Fluid is not the reason.What is rest of the state of vehicle?tyres?tyre pressures...
But that is the way to treat the costumer,unfortunately these thinks happends in this type of work and you have two ways fix it or leave it...
It ends up that you are a goed man and take the loss.But in my mind and in yours i belive i dont think that is your fault.
👍
Thank you for posting. You guys totally did the wright thing here. At the shop I work at we do what we call the final inspection once everything is done e and all test drives are complete. Doesn’t catch everything but it does help. I totally agree that things can quickly go shout with the wrong fluids or the wrong amount of fluid. Med and heavy duty trucks tend to be a little more forgiving than high performs cars.
Not many shops would OWN IT like you guys did 👍👍👍🔧🔧🔧😎
That’s true. But owning it on TH-cam tells people they are honest and brings in more business. I believe it really happened but it’s also believable was a fake
Having operated a drive line shop along with a service & repair shop I have seen bad luck like this before I definitely know it was nothing to do with your work or the oil some of the things that I have seen are certain European bearings are very brittle & the hardened surface will slowly delaminate if the bearing pre load is too loaded also I recall a certain make of vehicle was notorious for pinion bearing failure that we found the preload from factory was ridiculously high having said that if the oil was to blame the first thing it would have done was to badly scuff the crown wheel & pinion to have just one tapered bearing fail still leads me to believe the failure would have occurred regardless of your work . I put it down to bad luck combined with all of the above . Keep up the good work
BMW is known for having reliabilty and quality control issues. That bearing probably had issues from the day it rolled off the assembly line.
Absolute BS. Bought my first BMW in 1989, had it for 10 years and still regret that I sold it, to make way for a new one. Apart from regular services, I only replaced the water pump, clutch kit and a complete new stainless steel exhaust system in year 10. Since then not a day went past that there wasn't a BMW parked in my garrage. Only had a turbo exploding on an almost new 320d once, which was sorted out by BMW the next day. Never had a BMW that left me stranded by the roadside, even limped back home with the one with the blown turbo.
@@dirkfolscher3001You call that reliable? pos
@@dirkfolscher3001😂😂you’re comparing a 35 year old car to a new one with a bunch of computers. These new cars just aren’t built to last like the older ones
You guys did the right thing and you don't see much of that these days. God bless you for that.
Something I learned. A part failure doesn't care if you just left a funeral and headed to work that night. 😢 When it's time, it's time.
The fluid had nothing to do with the failure.
I've used oil heavier than that in those diffs for years if seeping, not one comeback.
Thanks for sharing and for taking responsibility! Great shop attitude and leadership. I'm lucky to have shops.locally that are honest and fair like you.
Haters will hate good guys do what is right!
First I must say kudos for taking the responsibility although something is fishy here. A bearing is a bearing, so unless you tell me that the only bearing that goes in that diff is BMW proprietary bearing, I can't believe that the "wrong" diff oil can cause it to fail in that short time. It wasn't like he put engine oil there or automatic transmission fluid.
If it is above the recommended viscosity, which it is 75-90, don't see how the fluid is to blame. You can also see - on engine oils - the manufacturer usually do not recommend a specific viscosity, it always comes with operating temperature ranges. I think what happened was the pinion bearing was starved of oil, maybe something the tech missed was blocking oil from getting to it, this caused the problem, the customer was lucky you are an honest man and maybe on this case, owned something that was not really your fault.
In any case I salute you again for you honesty and responsibility. I believe that this will bring you more blessings in the future. 👍👍👍
The fluid wasn't the issue. BMW bearings are no different than any other. As a retired business owner I do agree with and applaud your decision to repair at no cost. Due to the wrong fluid it was an unwinnable argument with the customer. Your choice shows that you are a reputable shop and today that is rare. 👍for the work and 👍for the videos.
Sherwood, you guys are good folks, and I applaud you for always giving the customer the benefit of the doubt, and showing integrity. Maybe a skill I need to develop again, because here in my market (Miami, FL.) I always doubt everything that comes out of the customer's mouth.
That said, I specialize on these cars and I can't tell you how many countless driveline services I've done on BMWs. These diffs aren't picky at all. As long as the fluid is GL5, you're good to go. BMW even allows different viscosities depending on the environment the car lives in.
The pinion bearing is a common failure item on these cars. If I haven't done a thousand of them by now, I haven't done one. It was just your lucky day. You NEVER have to pay extortion money to BMW for a diff or even a transfer case. I use a company here in Florida called Cobra Transmission. They sell anything and everything to rebuild the diffs and transfer cases on German cars. I do a front diff overhaul for 2500.00 out the door. That includes removing it and installing it. These diffs are super simple. BMW and Mercedes tend to run open diffs on their non M/AMG cars. They instead use the DSC system to control wheel slippage. That's why the abs systems on these cars are so finicky about speed sensors.
I commend you for the integrity, but next time before doing the service. drop all the plastic covers and the metal support plate and give the diff a good back and forth and you would have discovered the failing bearing. This wasn't on you. Good luck ✌🏽
I work with larger industrial bearings. The bearing manufacturer will examine that bearing and determine the failure mode. Our bearing manufacturers have worked with us to recommend lubricant types and lubrication service intervals for our applications based on operating speeds and temperatures. Their recommended parameters have worked well. Just for your info, I'd have that bearing examined.
We might do that! Thanks!
I’m in the same field as you.
I love that you threw yourself on the sword and owned up to the damage. All too many in our industry play the game of duck, dodge, and hide looking for ways to get out taking responsibility. I will say, and I think what a lot of comments are pointing to is you are the victim of really bad timing. Kudos to you for taking one for the team, but I agree this failure is hard to imaging givin the time involved. Great video and follow-up guys keep up the good work.
I don't believe for one second that the fluid caused the issue, but I applaud you for doing right by the customer, nonetheless.
Hey guys I love your videos what I you guys do, I was a tech at bmw for over 10y until 2022. You guys didn’t cause any damage nor the fluid did, these diffs goes bad I have replaced plenty of them under warranty for the same issue. I have my own shop now and I would’ve done the same replace the diff because we worked on it last and less then a day, it’s just unfortunate that happen right after you did the fluid service. Again these diffs front or rear can take any fluid with grater wight as long it has the right approvals
You didn’t need to share any of this with us. But thank you for sharing.
I would take my car to your shop in a heartbeat if you were close. Ethical automotive shops are hard to find. Appreciate your vids!
Min 4:01 on this video the tech in background is raising a car with the lift locks released As he gets to the desired height he just stops! Never put the car on the locks! You better school him on that Sherwood.
The first off thank you for the video when I watched the first one I was in disbelief that that could happen within a day. There had been some underlying issue with the bearings to begin with. I have been Twisting the ol iron for 43 years professionally and other than people putting in gear oil instead of dual pump in a Honda I can honestly say I have never experienced gear oil causing that failure so quickly.
Sounds like you were a victim of circumstance. One of those Ripley's Believe It Or Not moments in life. I'm a former SAAB mechanic. The SAAB 99 and 79-85 900 manual transaxles used 75W gear oil. Around 1987 SAAB changed to using 10W30 motor oil in the manual transaxles. They recommended changing earlier gearboxes over to 10W30 motor oil. To go from 75W gear oil to 10W30 motor oil is quite a drastic change in lubricants. We never had a pinion bearing fail in a day after the service. Granted the 5 speed manual boxes were know to suffer pinion bearing failure around the 100k mile mark. I think the bearing was on it's way out and the fluid change was the straw that broke the camel's back.
It's not an easy situation in a case like this. The customer brings in a seemingly perfectly functioning car only to have a failure so suddenly of the component they requested the service on. You followed up by examining the amount of fluid and finding out that the manufacturer specifies a specific lubricant that was different from what you put in. It takes a special person to admit that they may have caused the failure and take responsibility. A lot of shops would have thrown the customer to the wind.
The whole country needs a lesson in ethics and accountability not only in the auto repair business. I applaud you for being a stand up guy that stands behind your product and your team. You not only have that customer for life he's going to tell all his friends about his honest mechanic.
This deferential was probably before go to service
I only want to interject that tolerances are so very tight today. When I started working on vehicles back in the 60's, everything ran on 30wt motor oils and 90wt gear oil. Now, when I r and r diff oils from my BMW's, I actually drain it in a clear container to check for possible problems, because I am retired from shop work. I know that is not reality in the shop environment, but that diff could possibly have been ever so marginal before the service. But, thanks for making honest and through video on the subject.
You need see my deferential and sound from front end
Excellent point.
I will admit that it's hard to believe that it was the fault of the oil or that it happened in one day but that's really beside the point and can't be proven 100% either way but the customer is naturally going to come back and think the shop did something wrong somewhere. Most shops that I know would have never taken ownership anyway so good on you for keeping the customer happy even though it's very painful. So good on you!!! Everyone learned a hard lesson for sure!
I find it very hard to believe that the wrong fluid caused that much damage almost immediately. It's more likely that the bearing was shot before it ever came into your shop. You should be commended for taking responsibility for the situation, but I'm convinced it would have happened even if you used the correct fluid. Are you absolutely sure it wasn't making any noise at all prior to you doing the fluid change?
The tech was very adamant it wasn’t making any noise prior. We have to take him at his word, especially when saying it did have noise would be to his benefit.
It was the wrong fluid. BMW calls for Hypoid Differential Fluid which has different properties than normal differential fluid, irrespective of viscosity. Valvoline says they don't have a differential fluid for a BMW M550i (or probably not most BMW's).
Hey mate, I'm a mechanic from Oz and I really appreciate your videos. Respect to you and you buisness for having integrity and taking responsibility for your mistakes even when it costs you. Awesome to see someone in our trade practising what they preach.👍
My is working 10 years and broke down the bearing because is bad quality from BMW and they never repaired
BMW sucks.
Watching your videos and I love how professional you handle all of your situations.No huffing just acknowledging that things will happen.I don't believe people understand the amount of pressure the fluid is under and how it dissipates heat.keep up the good work and great job not just paying flat rate but an hourly rate plus.always use the specified fluid
My personal opinion based on 52 years of driving and servicing cars, I call this a very weak gear and bearing system. If it is so terribly sensitive that the bearings fail with the wrong spec oil, it should not be in a vehicle. Unless a LSD seized from not using GL5, I'm not buying it. The lesson to me is avoid owning or servicing BMW at all costs. Toyota/Lexus would not produce something this flaky. Yes, the diff is complete junk, and I feel it was complete junk before the fluid service. BMW junk. I appreciate your posting.
Yeah he’s definitely gonna stop servicing BMWs which are probably in the shop more often then the Toyota and Lexus…makes perfect business sense
@@TheOnlyKontrol Someone has to do it. I'm saying I would not personally touch something so flaky. Never said I was recommending specialists not service them. I really don't think the shop is at fault here. I think they are a victim of poor engineering and/or part quality.
Thanks for being a great role model for the automotive business.
Got to love them keyboard warrior mechanics I’m guessing Jiffy Lube changes their oil.
I worked at a certain dealer that used BG fluid for front and rear differential services, had a span of ten cars come back in short window span that ended up needing all new rear differentials, the word was that batch of BG most recently used didn’t have friction inhibitor additive and that one missing additive was enough to cause that damage, BG footed the bill for them all
I went to a dealer in Elmore Ohio and they f u c - k e d my rear end up with just a service. cost me 2K or I had to toe it back from illinois.
I appreciate the honesty, respect, and integrity of this shop greatly. As a fellow business owner, you are doing by far the best customer service and I strive to see more like this.
The fluid change didn't do damage. Just very unfortunate timing.
Not so sure, since Valvoline says they don't make gear oil compatible with BMW's. BMW's require Hypoid Gear Oil.
@@Mark-rw3kwsource? I haven’t found it
@@joe1273 You have to enter in the specific vehicle (2021 BMW M550i) and then look at the products they have for that vehicle. Make sure you have selected "Show Only Products That Fit Your Vehicle". When gear oil is selected, you will get a message that says "No products with the applied filters match your vehicle."
The variety of fluids, filters, and parts is indeed overwhelming and seems unnecessary at times. It adds challenges for both vehicle owners and repair shop owners who must stock a wide range of inventory, often due to manufacturers’ specific requirements.
Sherwood’s videos sound informative and practical, especially when discussing alignment, oil filters, and diagnostics. His approach to being transparent and straightforward with customers is refreshing, and you’re right-it builds trust and long-term relationships, which can help any business thrive.
It is a BMW. As such it is more than capable of destroying itself in one day. Quality German engineering
BMW's require Hypoid Gear Oil that contain special extreme pressure and anti-wear additives that increase its resistance to breakdown under the high temperatures and mechanical pressure produced by the sliding surfaces of a hypoid gearbox.
@@Mark-rw3kw pretty much any diff, even back to my 55 Austin-Healey are hypoid gear type. The problem was with the tapered roller bearing.
@@dB_944 The bottom line is that Valvoline says they do not have a gear/differential oil for that BMW (and probably most other BMW's). The BMW differential oil is specifically labeled "BMW G4 Hypoid Differential Fluid - Genuine BMW."
@@Mark-rw3kw I agree. But people shouldn’t fixate on the hypoid part because practically every modern differential is of hypoid type.
@@dB_944 People should fixate on the fact that Valvoline says they don't have a gear oil for 2021 BMW M550i.
You got my full respect for doing that video and showing us what not to do. Thank you a lot.