What If Germany Never Invaded the Soviets?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
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"Whoops, Italy didn't defend its coastline properly" spoken like someone who has had to save Italy's ass one too many times in hoi4
Please help half of Italy is British and I have no mountaineers what do I do
@@ddesmarais7251 make mountaineers and cry
@@ddesmarais7251 regno del sud spawning in 3....2...1...
@@ddesmarais7251FLAME TANKS BABY
I mean Italy in Hoi4 is so fukin useless you might as well declare war on it before Poland and annex the whole country for it’s navy and factories.
I'd love to see an alternate history where the Commune of Paris succeeded in establishing a communist state of France, or at least some level of Socialism, that causes an alignment with the Soviets or possibly another civil war with the rest of the French who want the Republic back.
Than Germany wins ww1
Yeah it would be cool
WW1 is still a thing
@@MarcTelangbut then Britain isn’t gonna back the communists
That would be 🔥🔥🔥
This case scenerio is even worse when you think that the main reason why Romania helped Germany is the reconquest of bassarabia from the soviets,if this doesn't happen,Romania probably will not be so willing to help which means that Germany will have even more problems with oil then they have in our time.
Wouldn't Germans just then... invade and occupy Romania as they did with Norway in 1940 and Hungary in 1944?
Bro what are you smoking. The main reason romania joined and helped axis was to be protected from ussr. Once in an alliance, they obviously must help out.
@@narka369 They were promised that they will get their lost territories from the ussr back,thats a big reason why they accepted the loses from hungary and bulgaria and joined the axis.Once Ion Antonescu knew about operation barbarossa he notified hitler that Romania will fully supply germany with what they had,before that Romania didn't help the germans nearly as much,even if they were in the axis they didn't care about the other fronts,the best example is bulgaria,they didn't care about what germany will do so they didn't help even if they were in the axis.
@@narka369 Not always. Italy didn't do that during WW1.
*scenario
Hitler: We won't invade the USSR, take that Reds!
Stalin: Oh, ok, thanks. Anyway, we are invading you.
ROughly as I predict it
Actually, Stalin wanted to join the axis, but hitler didnt respond.
@@Titancameramanedits5614he wanted to gain influence over the balkans
Even if the Soviets invaded first, they would've been crushed. Their army was poorly trained as you can see in their performance in 1941.
@@Titancameramanedits5614 Not true, actually. It was Molotov who wanted an alliance with Germany, he was backed by Mussolini and a few german politicians, Hitler refused this already, and Stalin said he'd only agree if bulgaria and romania join his influence as communist puppets.
@@red-gp9ohh except USSR would never invade in 1941 precisely because of that
Honestly it's refreshing to see a ww2 althistory video that doesn't go super man in the high castle mode and stays realistic, thank you, yet another banger of a video
Yeah, it's weird who many people who write the "doomsday German victory" scenarios don't understand the issues of things like "logistics" and "stretching manpower too thin"
Those things are why Germany even sought out allies in the first place. Speaking of allies, the worst what-ifs tend to forget that Germany had those, which is funny.
Realistic? This channel?
Lmao.
@@hafor2846 To be fair, it usually *starts* decently before breaking down into conclusions that ignore too much of the groundwork it laid
@@hafor2846 more realistic than a lot of other althist channels, mr z made a video where due the julius ceaser staying a live rome more or less conquers the world.
How can you call this video realistic? I swear, every alternate YT channels are so bad it's ridiculous. I have thought about making my own videoes but i'm just to lazy tbh
Funniest part about "Germany Wins WW2" scenarios tend to be that they pretty much rely on Nazi Germany just... not being Nazi Germany. Which at that point you might as well just write fiction or give them alien technology for the extra kick.
Real
Tbf that's just pretty much every althist scenario ever
Okay potential history watcher
With WW1 you can tweak some things, that can shift the lines. But for WW2 would either rewrite Hitlers whole personality or give them an Deus Ex Machina so they could win. The Nazis would loose. They are scenarios where one can say, the war would have been longer, but sooner or later they would loose.
I mean best case (for Nazi Germany) would be that Curchill would die shortly after France had lost(Heart attack, shot down by other Britts, something that could have happend), but even a peace deal would only be temporary.
Ironicly a longer war would have been really bad for Germany, because then the Atom Bomb would have been used against them.
Germany being nazi or not was not in position to win a war against the USSR, America, the French and British empires
WE ARE SO BACK
Conry ahh white boy
Wir sind wieder da
Nein, ihr sind nicht.
Fr
Ja sind wir
Given their ideologies, war between the two was inevitable. Stalin knew it and expected Germany to attack once it came to terms with Britain. After all, Germany lost the Great War partly because they fought on multiple fronts. There's no way they would make the same mistake again, right? It's not that outlandish, since it appeared they learned the lessons of not getting caught up in trench warfare in France again.
That's why the Islamic Republic is totally fighting the Russian Federation and all of it's orthodox priests lol
@@hafor2846Yeah I'm not sure ideology really matter that much, they'll work together when need been.
Especially when you find out the Soviets had been pushing years of propaganda about how they were going to steam roll the Germans. Hitler knew it was inevitable and wanted to strike the Soviets before they could mount a serious war.
What? 🤨@@hafor2846
German made the same dumb mistake and started a war on 2 or 3 front include Africa.
These were the longest 7 days of my life. Welcome back my favorite Dutch man
I like seeing these videos where he explains why these alternate events didn’t happen, a lot of alt history stuff just doesn’t make a cent of sense
The ultimate goal of Germany was to destroy the Soviet Union, but the reverse also was true. Stalin only agreed to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, because despite popular perception, he was fully aware of the inadequacies of the Soviet military, and he knew that he needed more time. Given perhaps another few years, the Soviet Union was fully prepared to launch their own Barbarossa. It may come in 1943, 1944, or years later still, but it will come - and in a best case scenario, the Germans would take a decade or more to starve out Britain. There just isn't enough time.
It was planned a few weeks after barbarossa launched
The Allie’s successfully invading requires far more imagination than Germany not attacking the Soviets. The Germans were pasting the British and by 1944 the Allie’s were still worried about D-Day without a massive eastern front and losses any landing troops would be eliminated quickly. They would never take Africa without the United States and Germany would help the Italians take North Africa.
Well I mean here's the thing the Ally's whould have naval and air suprancy also I think it should be full naval so that means the Ally's can cut off any supply lines leading towards North Africa and I think some of the Ally's like Romania whould switch teams as war gets way to costly plus they chould probly make a landing in either the balkens southern France or Italy Germany can't be every where
Whould
@@thomasbriardy2326 Romania? A country on the Soviet border will feel safe with Allied 'guarantees', just like Poland? No, Romania can and will betray the Axis by trying to reach an agreement with the USSR if the situation becomes hopeless, never the Allies, Allied guarantees have no value in the face of the USSR.
Yes! Been waiting For this one! Thanks PH!
what the fuck dude
@@makiro1I love Alternative history. That's all, relax
@@makiro1PH, Possible History
@@danielsantiagourtado3430 sorry wrong guy
@@SethMMX my comment wasn't meant for him l miss clicked
Scenario idea: what if French troops were allowed to move into Belgium into 1938-1940 and/or what if Luxembourg & Belgium agreed to extend to maginot line to their countries.
I think "What if Turkey joined the Axis in WW2?" could make an interesting video!
turkey army in that period of time is really weak , and belive me , turkey might be even worse ally then Italy. And above that , there is 2 more fronts , 1 for GB and 1 for Soviets , and this is even worse situation , bcz germany need spread even more troops , bcz again Turley army and fleet is just trash in ww2 period of time.
Lore dad already did it
@@One_step_above_is_hereYeah but that was part of a larger alternate series so it doesnt count
Unlike Italy, Turkey is really far from GermanyGermany would let allied troops get bogged down there or tied up, as Turkey falling would mean little strategically to Germany's security@@zagsarraykland6291
@@TheT-90thatstaresintoyoursoul No it was literally titled alt-hist 1 off
PH! Huge fan from Colombia! Suggestion: What if everything went perfectly For Colombia after independence? 🇨🇴🇨🇴🇨🇴🇨🇴
Pot
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As Colombian, I support this statement.
Let’s get this to a top comment
As an American, Colombian supremacy!!!!
Sí sí, Colombia!
1:35 considering that Britain immediately switches to a war economy in 1939 and Germany didnt all the way until 1943, Germany indeed was holding back quite a lot of industrial potential.
Total war isnt war eco bro even hoi4 players understand that
@@PerOlemannBobsenXVIIHowever you want to put it, Germany didnt dedicate its eceonomy to the same level to war production until 1943 as Britain already did in 1939.
A comparison to hoi4 in this case does actually make some sense.
@@finitatemthey used slave labour, if they hadn't had an eastern front none of that would be there.
5:22 oh, really? Then why did Germany have 80% of their entire military casualties in WW2 just on the Eastern front in real life? Without a war against Soviets, Germany would successfully defend against the Operation Torch, causing its failure or even causing it to never happen
british navy:
This is just science fiction. But for me was the first question, if usa join to war against germany. I think they never fight with german, cause when they normally join to ww2, naci exactly lost this war against soviet union. Naci was done!!! So i think they never go to war usa vs german... Usa is parasite, that s all. And probably they run out like from afganistan, against goat farmers...
@@PerOlemannBobsenXVIIcould secure the morrocon coast and maybe the eastern med no operation torch bud
@sploster938
Delusional. Every wheraboo just ignores this thing called "logistics." Germany in real life, with the smaller force it had, struggled to supply them in North Africa. Real life isn't hoi4. You can't just shove more troops in and expect to win.
I think the landings in europe in the scenario where the USSR stays peaceful all the way, is way to early. Not only would the axis have millions more soldiers to defend against landings, even if they kept a big force in reserve against the soviets.
But I also doubt that the american public would be optimistic fighting against Germany with no strong allies, while also figh ting against Japan. At that point the german army was still sean as extremely powerful. The british together with the french weren’t able to stop from rapidly conquering mainland europe. So I think the american public wouldn’t have much hope in just the british alone.
Another major reason the Germans joined the war against the USA was to court Japan. The two had always had a rocky relationship. Especially thanks to Japan's non-aggression pact with the Soviets. By declaring war on the USA first, Nazi leaders hoped to show Japan that they could work together against the British, Americans, and, hopefully, the Soviets. Declaring war on the USA wasn't actually a bad play.
It is possible that the Germans could’ve won the air battle with Britain had they started earlier and focused on military targets. There’s actually an article that explains how it increases the chances of German victory in the air significantly.
After seeing a documentary in the RAF Museum in London about the air battle over Britain german victory was quite possible. The documentary mentioned the number 1 cause of the failure was Hitler’s continous changing of the targets.
So at first they targeted the radars but right before they destroyed them they then switched to bombing RAF air bases after some surprise counter bombings. Then when almost the bases and most of the fighters were wiped out Hitler again switched target to exclusively bomb cities that decimated the Luftwaffe’s strike force (bombers and cas alike) and also caused heavy damage to the fighter fleet as they were busy covering the bombers against the remaining fighters while also trying to not get shot down by heavy flak. All the while the brits repaired their air bases, shifted production to fighter plane en masse wherever they could and started to keep up with the germans eventually outnumbering then when at that point Hitler and Goering just gave up as they needed the Luftwaffe against the Soviets the next year.
I thought Stalin wanted at least a decade before he declared war on Germany.
i heard he was preparing for a war in the mid 40s, like most other european powers (which is one of the reasons germany was succesfull as they prepared for war in 1938 (in hoi4 terms germany were on a massive mil build since the start while the others do a civgrind)
Stalin wants to make Europe communist soooo yea
The plan was for Spring 1943 according to Moscow Archives (at least what Gen. a.D. Bernd Schwipper found out in the early 1990s)......After the French campaign was unfortunately over so quickly and with only a few losses (192 Soviet divisions were meanwhile deployed on the Reich border, so that the OKW, in a state of sheer panic, had to rush 18 battle-experienced and fully motorized divisions from the ongoing French campaign to the east in a forced march in order to be able to support the 9 meager border divisions in the event of a Soviet attack) Stalin hesitated after the desired attrition of the Wehrmacht in France does not took place and wanted to complete the modernization of his Red Army first.
"Sea Lion" was maybe the greatest military bluff of all time.....Stalin was convinced that Germany would attack England first and that he have enough time for his own offensive preparations and the modernization of the Red Army....Add to that the secret correspondence from Ribbentrop that some "disobedient generals" might provoke border incidents in order to sabotage the attack on England.......Even days after the first day of the German attack on the Sovietunion, Stalin still did not want to believe what had happened.....This probably also explains the confusion in the first weeks with absurd dig in orders and the withholding of the strategic reserves....
I really enjoy the explanation of why things didnt and couldn't go certain ways. Makes it a lot more educational than most alternative history content
Well, it's basically just his opinion, there's nothing that says it couldn't have gone a certain way.
@@Maltheus_ well "couldn't" is a bit less generally applied, but it most certainly didnt.
What if Germany invaded the Soviets right after the winter war ? Might be a nice scenario to explore
not ideal, winter war is in 39. Fall of france is in 40s. Even the germans need time to plan the biggest invasion in history . I think the Soviets may be weaker because they didn't made any reforms . But germany overall would be also weaker in logistics. + but that year they wouldn't have Finland and romania as allies yet.
Germany did not have the manpower to fight on both France and the USSR at the same time with no allies. Doing so would be suicidal.
alternatively maybe something like, what if Germany didn't go to war with the Allies at all, instead got Poland on their side peacefully and then invaded the USSR instantly? also interesting but i don't think it's any more plausible lol
@azlanadil3646 France and Britain never intended to invade Germany atleast not in 1939/1940 but they planned to help Finland in the winter war before the German army invaded norway
@@azlanadil3646 Germany did have allies. It just didn't utilize them very well, so in order for things to work, they would have to actually be competent leaders
00:07 can't Japan just invade Soviet Union so Germany survive in the west?
soviets could just.... not care. Good luck capturing all that shit. You can prob just guard the railways and that would work just fine
Marching an entire army into the Siberian wasteland is not a good idea. Also Japan got wrecked in border skirmishes with the Soviet in 1939. The USSR can just focus in Europe, finishing Germany with Western Allies, then turn to Asia later. Late war Germany and Japan would lose eventually.
Germany was the strongest coubtry in the world. It took the entire west to save russia and therefore beat germany. And germany is getting strong again today. Putin must live in fear.
Japan had a treaty with USSR from before "ww2".
Alternate History: What if everything went perfect for Poland starting in 1592?
(When the Commonwealth had a union with Sweden)
Huge respect to you and your channel man! Not many use as good and understandable arguments in their Videos as you do keep it up man!
Why do you give Poland Pomerania and Königsberg which were like 1% polish but don't give them Silesia, which was easily 40-60%. It also includes a much bigger part of the leftover German industry, crippling them much more than taking a few ports and smaller population centers. (In the no soviet intervention scenario)
Silesia wasnt 40-60% Polish only upper silesia had maybe 40% poles, the whole Silesia 10%
@@newgamer0034 Still, makes a whole lot of sense more than land that was practically not polish at all
@@newgamer0034upper Silesia was 70% Polish, lower below 5%.
@@gierczyslaw8446 Making Eastern Prussia a part of Poland makes sense as it takes away the argument saying that Prussia needs to be connected with the rest of Germany away from future German nationalists.
So it has a better coastline
You're wrong about Africa, and also Italy. Without the eastern front, Germany would throw naval invasions back into the sea
and then the soviets would invade them because theyd have no troops gaurding that part of their country
@@Sadnessiuselessthe soviets weren’t ready for a offensive war in 1941 and wouldn’t be for a few years also you act like germany didn’t take troops of their soviet border before ever heard of the balkan campaign the troops used were stationed on the soviet border but when they were moved the soviets couldn’t care less
"I don't take your house, someone else will"
Its relatable now
11:08 is that a dot on Danzig? Considering why the war was started, I doubt they’d nuke Danzig
Finally nice to see it shown that although on the back foot for the first half of the war, Britain wasn’t a sitting duck.
Idk why but I love scenarios like this where you take premises that in theory could lead to Germany winning ww2 and then see the different ways they could lose
Here’s how I’d make it work:
1 Strasserism takes power in Germany.
2 relations with Japan and the axis breakdown
3 a proper Falangist takes power in Spain and joins the axis.
4 anyone but Roosevelt takes power.
7:14 Stalin didn't need money for being rich. He needed money to buy necessary factory equipment. That trade would've been significantly reduced if Germany couldn't produce that if their industries are destroyed resulting in food and oil shortages. USA and Britain wouldn't accept german money.
7:27 Germany would be able to allocate far more resources and push Allies out of Italy.
13:27 USSR would indeed be stronger but much more vulnerable to nuclear strike (like Totallity or Dropshot) cause US' airfields in Europe are much closer to Moscow. And it would be much easier for USA to launch such attack cause there would less support for communism in Europe (since USSR isn't the anti-nazi hero in that timeline).
Another thing you missed is that if USSR is not pressured then it could have provided serious support to communist partizan movements in Greece, Balkans, China and who knows, maybe even France. More headache and less resources for Germany.
7:00 No. Nestle selling food to militaries of both sides is what i would call "cold-blooded opportunist". Stalin was just pragmatic. He tried to make an alliance against Germany and even defend Czechoslovakia. The pact with Germany happened after everything else failed.
I wonder what would happen if the germans not only wouldn’t attack the soviet union, but if the germans managed declare peace with the allies too (not necessarily including japan declaring peace).
I love yor content❤❤❤ and I have idea for video:
If Prague was the capital city of Habsburg monarchy, then in year 1619, durig the Bohemian Revolt in Prague, then the rovelters conquered the capital city of Habsburg monarchy - Prague and Ferdinand 2nd surrendered and Frederick 5th of Palatinate become king of the Habsburg monarchy. In year 1685 when Frederick's grandson Charles 2nd died without sons, his brother-in-law (brother of his wife) Christian 5th Danish and Norwegian king became king of Danubian kingdom (Habsburg monarchy). In reality in year 1740 Frederick 2nd (Prussian king) attacked Silesia because of destability of Habsburg monarchy and because of someone's non-recognition of Maria Theresa as queen, but in this alternative history it didn't happened, because Oldenburg monarchy (Habsburg monarchy and Denmark-Norway) was stable, everyone recognize Christian 6th as king and Oldenburg monarchy was more times bigger than Prussia. In year 1814 after the unsucceful Norwegian war of indepence the Oldenburg monarchy became federation of three states - Norway, Denmark and Danubia. After 50 years in year 1867 the federak state Danubia splits into 2 federal states - Bohemia and Hungary. In this alternative history duke Franz Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, but successor to the throne and first born son of Christian 10th - Frederick instead. The great war was going on just like in Reality. If the great war win Triple Alliance, then Knut Christian (second born son of Christian 10th) ruled the Denmark-Norway and the part of Oldenburg monarchy in Central Europe (Federal states Bohemia and Hungary) was split like in reality, but Silesia and North and South Lusatia were part of Czechoslovakia.
You can edit it a bit.
If you make video about this
You are wrong about the air campaign in Britain. In the beginning the German Luftwaffe were concentrating on airfields and radar stations. This was crippling the English Air force. The British Air program was knocked back that they had few planes and pilots for a short time. They got lucky when the lone British pilot accidentally dropped his payloadnof bombs on a German city. This enraged Hitler and he ordered that London be bombed into oblivion. This took all the pressure off the British air force and they were able to train new pilots and build new planes in the north of england, and since they stopped bombing the radar stations it allowed England to know when the enemy was coming
Your a awesome content creator
I think PH should do "What if Napoleon never invaded Egypt" theres so much potential for a stronger Ottomans and even maybe a stronger Revolutionary France
Please make a part 2 of this where soviets intervene.
Nice to see you're back. Your videos make me happy :)
You've ignored the oil situation in Germany and was the reason for Germany going to war with the Soviets in 1941
germany could have taken the oil fields in iraq tbh. i am very disappointed with this scenario
@@Jawshuahbecause it’s realistic
@@barsukascool germany could have taken north africa very easily if it wasn’t at war with the soviets or planning on it.
@@Jawshuah they also would have collapsed because of the MEFO bills and you are ignoring the very ideological reason H**ler and the National Socialists invaded countries in the first place.
@@JawshuahGermany couldn't win the North African campaign for two main reasons.
(1). The logistics of North Africa was a nightmare for Germany. They needed to get soldiers, food, water, weapons, clothing, etc, which Germany and Italy would struggle even without the Soviets.
(2). The British Navy had naval supremacy which would pester with supplies.
You have surface-level knowledge of North Africa.
New PH just dropped 🗣️🔥
Ah, but what if Italy didn't suck at defending their coast and were more effective without German intervention?
I continue to enjoy your content!
Day 1 on asking for what if everything went perfect for the Qing and they avoided the century of humiliation.
Hey man great video as always, can you make a video on "What if germany accepted USSR's proposal to join the axix powers"
He somewhat looked into it in the "What if the second world war was a three way war", saying that the USSR would first make minor gains in Jrak, then the Germans would backstab them anyways
Focussing of the British was equally or more as impractical as invading Soviet Union was, you do know how disastrous the German air campaign on the British isles was. For me, the invasion of Soviet Union itself wasn't a mistake but there were mistakes done by Hitler during the war in Eastern front which could've been avoided.
Enlighten me how the Germans could’ve done it
@@mazmurlo9283 by continuing the army group centre's advance to Moscow instead of redirecting their panzers to flank Kiev
Germany would lose anyway. You can put a puzzle together in amy order you want but the picture is the same. Germans lost the air war so they would be eventualy cripled by bombing even more so then they were in reality. Each month tacked on the war is tens of thousands of tons droped on german infrastructure
Creating a multiple front war against another nation is always a military mistake. Not invading the USSR also gives the Germans a better position to try and get the British to negotiate peace.
@@red-gp9ohh ukraine was the breadbasket of the USSR, hitler wanted ukraine purely to feed germany and the war machine.
Here is a more interesting scenario.
What if Germany persuaded the Soviets to invade south into Persia(Iran), and take the Gulf states and then towards Suez.
The British would be forced to declare war on the Soviets, thus giving the Germans the opportunity to make peace with Britain against a common enemy, and maybe including France into that deal.
Maybe do a video about potential ww3? I know this topic might be... controversial, but still interesting
depends on what starting point you're talking about for said ww3
Russia won't win the long term war, they don't have the economy for that
but the west and the american public wouldnt last 2 years
@@minestar2247 Let's say, today russian forces enter Poland, China attacks Taiwan, South Korea and North Korea begin to fight etc. What would it be like? How would it end like?
@@MichałSzmydt why would russia attack poland?
china attacking taiwan, yeah, but only as long as the us is occupied with ukraine and that other place in the ME
Nukes shouldn't be allowed as then the war would be a stalemate because there would be no countries to take the spoils.
In this programme and the 'What if operation Lion ...' scenario, you too easily brush aside the fact that Franco's Spain and Nazi Germany were in a way Allies, and the only reason Franco didn't join Hitler's campaign at that time was because he knew he was too weak and the people of Spain had had enough of war, having been in their own civil war for years. He co operated were he could but strongly defended 'his' neutrality!
I don't think there's any reasonable argument to suggest that the Soviets would not have eventually attacked Germany. Any such considerations are made out of ignorance of the geopolitics and ideologies at the time. While we cannot say when this would have happened, we can confidently say that it would have happened eventually.
The Soviet Union attempted for several years to build an alliance with France and Britain against Germany. But the Allies were unwilling to fully commit to this, plus there was the issue of Poland which was not very keen on allowing Soviet troops to enter or pass through their country or to return their gains from the Soviet-Polish war to the Soviets.
After giving up on this is when the buildup to the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact started. The entire main purpose of this pact for the Soviets was to buy enough time to prepare to fight Germany on their own, expecting the Allies to never fight Germany.
Well this argumentation is more or less correct, but it presumes that the soviet union was offensive when trying to partner with France and Britain or in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. If we were to say that the soviet union was acting defensively, then all they tried to do was keep war away from them, to build an army to defend themselves.
Also the soviet union had the doctrin of Socialism In One Country, which unlike Trotskys proposed Permanent Revolution, was focused on building a socialist state, that could be a base for all further revolutions. So it seems, basing ourselves on the ideology, that the soviet union would've more tried to support revolutions in Germany. Which they btw. tried with the German October.
This was a interesting scenario, could you maybe do what if everything went perfect for Italy next?
What if Germany juat didn't invaded Poland but continued to annex land by "diplomatic" measures only? And not invade Poland? But try to negotiate something with them?
Like annex Austria, most of Chezekoslovakia, Retake the Ruhr, and The memel but don't sing treaties with USSR and don't invade Poland and go try to fabricate a Annexation of Luxemburg.
They tried that. Every single measure they offered to Poland was refused. Zoomer historian did a video on this. In it he claims the germans were ready to settle just for a small strip of land wide enough for a road to just connect Prussia to germany proper.
EDIT: I'm not saying that Germany didn't intend to do the same to Poland as they did to Cezchoslovakia. I'm merely saying that originally they did try to diplomatically collapse poland and end Polish sovereignty. As for Zoomer Historian, yes he's very much biased towards Germany (blindly so much of the time) just saying its a youtuber I've seen that has done a video on this subject.
@@SerfinBird That's not true, the polish corridor was just an excuse to start the war, the Germans insisted on not repeating the mistakes in Czechoslovakia and make sure that this next conflict would lead to war.
The first proof is that while the ultimatum was delivered on the 29th of August, Germany already planned on invading Poland on the 26th and signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact three days earlier. They've decided to delay the invasion because of the UK forming an alliance with Poland.
The second proof is that the ultimatum was delivered in a way that made it impossible to be responded to in time, as wikipedia says:
On August 29, 1939, Adolf Hitler told British Ambassador Nevile Henderson that he was ready to resume negotiations with Poland. For this purpose, a Polish plenipotentiary was required to come to Berlin within 24 hours.[4] In principle, Poland and Great Britain were ready to negotiate.[5] Because of Hitler's ultimate demand, the British government decided not to forward it to Warsaw until after the set deadline had expired. It was not until the following noon that the Polish Ambassador Józef Lipski appeared at the Foreign Office and sought an audience with Ribbentrop. Five hours later he was shown in, and since he did not have the negotiating authority demanded by Hitler, Ribbentrop briefly dismissed him with the information that he would inform the "Führer" of this. Thus the German-Polish relations were severed.[1] On the night of August 31, Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop read the 16 points to Henderson but, against all diplomatic custom, refused to hand him the relevant document. Since no Polish representative had appeared, the proposal had become void anyway.[6]
As intended by Ribbentrop, the narrow time limit for acceptance of the ultimatum made it impossible for the British government to contact the Polish government in time about the German offer, let alone for the Poles to arrange for a Polish plenipotentiary envoy to arrive in Berlin that night, thereby allowing Ribbentrop to claim that the Poles had rejected the German demands".[2]
@@SerfinBirdI would take Zoomer Historian with a HEAVY dose of salt. He frequently takes German plans at face value completely ignoring obvious euphemisms in the source documents in order to make Germany look better. He’s very dishonest
@@SerfinBird yeah, I agree with the people who commented. The very existence of Poland was seen by Germany as another unwanted effect of Versailles. Plus, as Possible History mentions in the video, they wanted "Lebensraum" in the East, and to defeat the Soviets. I don't see how these goals are at all possible without control over Poland.
@luftwaffle173 says it. if germany would do it like this then they wouldnt be the germany of irl (they wanted to go to war with czhechia and not diplomaticly annex them, and were prepared to go to war with poland and wouldnt let any last minute conference ruin it). If they would tho theyd probably be stopped as the allied powers had realized that hitler was talking bs (and itll be just like irl but start differently) still interesting thought tho
Hmm, what about "What if Everything Went Perfectly for Italy?" for a video?
It’s worth noting that the Soviet war effort and industry was *vastly* subsidized by American support. For a lot of key materials and equipment (both military and industrial), the US provided a majority of what the Soviets used.
Someone with more time will need to run the numbers and compare that to what the Soviets lost to the invasion, as well as extrapolate what would happen if those resources were used on the Western Front (or to expand US’s industrial base even further).
Interesting scenario bc if the Soviets invade and remain on offense then they don’t have to move all their industry east in the first place so they wouldn’t need as much stuff
@@badart3204 Which assumes they attack and it goes well for them. If the US is keeping their industrial and military support on their side of the war, then it isn’t a given that the Soviets will do well if they attack.
The lend-lease myth strikes again
Without Barbarossa, there never would have been an Operation Torch. The Axis would have taken North Africa and the Middle East without breaking a sweat.
Cool video!
What if Leopold of hohenzollern accepted the spanish throne, what would the outcome of the Franco Prussian war (1870-1871), Spanish American war (1898), Scramble for Africa (1884-1885), the boxer rebellion (1898-1901), Venezuelan Crisis (1902-1903), The moroccan Crisis (1905-1910) and WW1 be?
Giving Posen to Poland would make way less sense than Silesia, Silesia is way more industrialized and was german for a way shorter ammount of time.
nah he probably wanted to make germanys borders look like elephant *HOOOOOOOOONK*
There was a documentary on the History Channel that talked a lot about this subject. During this, they interviewed a Soviet Army officer (a Colonel or General I think). He said very specifically, that it was only a matter of time before Germany invaded Russia or vice versa. He mentioned a couple of reasons: 1) their ideological differences, 2) the military threats posed. Ironically, it was the disastrous war in Finland that caused the Soviets to delay any expansionist ideas for a while.
Not sure why you bothered to make a video like this and then never went over troop strength, state of the militaries, and other basic measurable things to observe here. USSR was not ready for a war with Germany anytime soon, demonstrated by their terrible performance in 1940 and 1941 against the Finns and Germans. You bring this up and then just 'oh in three years they get better' with little reason or explanation as to why. A Soviet invasion of Germany in the time scale of ww2 was highly unlikely due to just pitiful the army was at the time. Had Germany chosen not to invade for whatever reasons, it's unlikely the Soviets would've taken the time to attack themselves against an enemy where victory wasn't guaranteed. At no point in the video do you ever bring up the Soviets nearly joined Germany and signed many diplomatic dealings with them.
Many mistake the later soviet strength as if they would've always had became that strong, but they became strong due to Germany's overextension and the incredible cost of the invasion as Germany waned and the USSR had more room to grow and simply outlasted the enemy who exhausted their strength. The Soviet army adapted quickly, that was it's greatest strength in the war. It was not always strong nor predestined to become strong it succeeded in the circumstances of the war. If you change the circumstances, then the status of the soviet army will change as well. It's entirely possible Stalin would've continued purging and making the army more subordinate to his will, thus weakening them even further. Instead of invading the Germans because history is a hoi4 game and his focus tree is telling him to attack.
Also the Nazis always hated communism is just false. Many were ex communist themselves and expressed sympathies to communism just as much as they expressed vitriol. Hitler himself had confusing comments on communism such as 'it is an interesting experiment that I'd like to see play out.' expressed privately while publicly he campaigned against it. I believe the invasion started simply because the Nazis believed falsely they had won the war against the allies who would never threaten them again, and the obvious weakness of the USSR would lead to it's total collapse. The alarming thing is they were nearly right, as their invasion only ended miles away from Moscow. They overestimated themselves by a small percentage, which gave an opening for the Soviets to counter. They had a very complicated relationship and it doesn't help there's a ton of propaganda misrepresenting both sides. I'd encourage people to look at the fact the Soviets very nearly joined the Axis and that there were peace talks in the 42/43 period of the war between Germany and the USSR before the outcomes became clear.
You lack a lot of historical fact knowledge and imagination to make videos like this. I'd consider reading up more and expanding your knowledge and thinking on these subjects.
The Soviets were ready for an offensive war with a lot of airports in Poland and railways not a defensive war because of the lack of entrenchment and fortifications
Europa the Last Battle
I guess the idea of joining the Axis was a political play
4:04 here you are wrong. Without
Barbarossa, Axis would expand their zone of control to have the entirety of North Africa
They would have collapsed because of the MEFO bills.
There is an important detail that was very important : Hitler wasn't that stupid. If they attacked the USSR at that time, they had a very good reason for it : Oil.
The German war machine needed oil, and a lot of it. In fact, they were basically running out.
Attacking the soviets was a move made to capture the Russian oil fields, especially the Caucasus. They needed oil for their u-boats, for their planes, for their trucks, and for their tanks. And Romania was basically not enough anymore.
A interesting alternative would be. What if Japan never entered Axis powers and Germany never declare war on USA.
Most boring ww2
Europe would be speaking Russian then and North korea would speak American
@@Trollge398*German
Aid from the US was crucial specifically for logistics and food, without it the USSR would have basically had a famine by 1944 if they hadn't gotten Ukraine back, and the lack of radios would make operations a lot more difficult.
@@Dont14-r4k and without operation barborosa atleast not in 1941 soviet infrastructure in Ukraine,Western Russia and Caucasia would remain intact leading to further militarization of Red army until it was too late for the germans. Even in our timeline Germans failed to capture Moscow in 1941 (keep in mind that USSR became part of land lease program in 1942). Unless Germany capture the entire northern Africa and Middle East to fuel resources, suddenly change all plans of lebransum and promote Russian collaboration in large scale USSR will winn just with more or less deaths
@@Trollge398 in the timeline of the comment operation Barbarossa would still happen at the exact same time. I don't know what you are talking about.
Also around 8-9 million Soviets died of famine on our timeline, without the logistical support of the US and the Radios, as well as the 4.5 million tons of food provided, any advance would be extremely more painful in terms of manpower, and while Germany would run low on resources, the USSR would collapse simply due to millions dying of starvation every month, and the USSR not even making that big of steps.
This scenario is like, "What if Russia and Poland became Allies?"
What of every thing went perfect for Poland (from 966)
Or
What if the Polish conquest of polabia succeeded
British sources themselves admit that the German air war striking RAF targets was 2 to 3 weeks from total success. They switched to civilian sites.
Didnt watched yet but i'am sure its good
Suggestion: What if Usa Invaded brazil in ww2 (Operation war plan Rubber)
Man am I glad I stayed up at 12am, can’t wait for the next video where Horthy establishes a monarchy and unifies South America under the Arabian banner
Lebensraum was the "excuse" for invading Poland, not every country that Germany invaded.
It was the excuse for invading the USSR too
It makes sense if you want a powerful Germany, Germany has not enough oil or resources except for steel and coal, if you want to be a World Power as Germany for the next century, you'd need the oil input from the Caucasus and the other resources Russia has.
1. Germany could invent it's own nuke, couldn't they?
2. German airforce could prevent US nukes from hitting big cities
3. Big cities are harder to destroy because they are filled up with major building made of concrete and other strong materials
4. US nuclear production would not get very big in 1945
1. The Germans were down the absolutely wrong path on their nuclear program. Their focus on heavy water was further curtailed by the action of the SAS and Norwegian Resistance so they are far behind in nuke race.
2. The Germans are losing the air war and losing pilots and aircraft in a war of attrition they can't win. By 1945 they're still going to be nearly depleted of aircraft and fuel. Plus the B-29 would operate beyond the reach of most interceptors.
3. Destroyed or not the devastation would be immense. If the Japanese didn't have the guts to endure more than two, it is unlikely the Germans would either and that's supposing Hitler survived the fist one.
4. Big or not by that point it becomes a matter of time before the Germans are living live action fallout.
@@Cabooseforprez2012 I agree with most of the points you made, but I must say that the Japanese surrendered not only because of inhumane American nuclear actions, but also because of Manchurian operation which destroyed the Kwantung army and made it pointless for Japan to continue the resistance
@@jonahshevtchenko7356 Inhumane is an odd choice of words considering that the alternative was the land invasion that would kill more on both sides in Japan itself, plus increase the deaths in China. Whether critical alone or in part, the bombings assisted bringing a swift end to the war. Both cities produced war material and had significant troops in and around it. When the soviets stormed Berlin over 300,000 died with a further 400,000 wounded. That hardly seems human either.
Germany would have invented the first Nuke if the Nazis where not the Nazis. When they didn’t turn against the Jews and be more open to Science as a whole. The world would look much different today
What If Russia 🇷🇺 never annexed or conquered Siberia and didn't expand East
I always wondered why nobody ever tackles this. It's such a cool idea!!
I once saw a alternate history where britain colonized it instead of
One word: China.
hm, yeah, but would require a reason for them not to do so. Because in OTL, they constantly wanted to grab any land possible, which pushed them into Siberia as well. Nevertheless, plausible. I think PH himself (or someone else) mentioned that Siberia is unusual and that normally you'd expect it to be colonized around the Scramble for Africa times. So would be interesting to delay any colonization till then and e.g. have Russia compete with China and Japan
There's not a single plausible scenario which I can imagine for Russia not to expand into Siberia. The fur industry was much too profitable to not do it and there were only cooperative natives and weak nomadic empires to oppose the expansion all the way to the Pacific Coast.
You need to mention the German resource crisis. The Royal Navy had blockaded all German imports, just like they did in the first war. Germany was on the brink of a food crisis, and the German government knew their oil reserves would run out by autumn 1941. They HAD to expand their empire and go for the eastern oil fields.
What the German could have done was make sure the Allies weren’t a threat anymore and then after making peace with Britian than invade the Soviets the German’s biggest mistake wasn’t invading the USSR it was invading the USSR while already being at war with other nations
I think you overestimate the influence FDR would have had in getting the US into European war. People were clearly more angry at the Japanese post Pearl Harbor. Yes the US still would have provided some supplies to the UK but they would not have had the same level of support without the US actually directly involved. I think you should be re-evaluating your position on that impact. Not saying Germany wins mind you, but Churchill in OTL still had a no confidence vote attempted in 1942. What happens with that if no US/German war declaration? Does a no confidence vote happen and Churchill forced from PM role? how does that impact the war?
0 views in 1 second? You fell off
Funny... So you could say Germany wanted to fight the Soviets way before the US did.
The Allies prevented it only to find out afterwards that the Soviets were indeed a threat and began fighting them 😅
Quelle ironie! 😂
Germany lost the war at Dunkirk when it let those soldiers escape and gave Churchill an excuse to continue fighting.
didnt exactly "let" the soilders just sail out of there but yeah it did gave make the uk not want to surrender as much
Knowing that the western allies needed 3 years to made it to continental Europe when the bulk of the German forces were on the eastern front.
The proposed scenario would have given the Whermacht enough forces and supplies capacity to kick the Brits out of north Africa. Making mediteranena sea a private italian pool. By having the brit out of the region, the axis forces could help to secure change of regime in the middle east. Depriving England from Oil ressources. Relying even more on the US.
Turkey would have more struggle of not aligning her policy on the Axis one. The Vichy's France would seen her political power consolidated.
On the long run, and by securing the south front, the axis forces would only have to focus on the Atlantic battle. Churchill would have to give up after loosing a sifnificant part or the condominium.
Germany didn't have to win against the Brits. But only to have a peace deal.
And then, whatever the soviet may have build up, they will have to allocate their forces in the Caucase, central Asia (boarder of newly independant Iran) and the entire western front.
The blow from the whermacht may even be harder by then. And without a second front and a lack of oil, Germany may have been able to keep up with manoeuver warfare longer that originally.
As an English socialist, this is cope. We are taught that if they had not redirected the Luftwaffe east, we would've ran out of planes in literally a couple of weeks.
It's an issue with alternative history to do it justice you need to look at hundreds of historical resources on every side to see what would happen. This would likely take entire teams and months to do correctly and quickly.
@@rust9542 Very true
The other thing to keep in mind is that the Western Allies would likely be slightly worse off in this timeline due more losses as result of Germany concentrating on the West.
I hate how the Soviets still get Konigsberg. Also, why was Germany balkanized? Why did they nuke Germany? Terrible video.
I agree honestly
@@Kinkedorpheus74it’s just his idea, also it’s also unrealistic as he acknowledges earlier
It’s just his one idea against hundreds of others
Honestly, I see the signing of a separate peace with France and UK after Poland's conquered more probable than not invading USSR
I wonder if Germany could have won WW2? I know you already did a great video on that, but a reboot would be nice.
4:24 To be honest, Roosevelt would not just then try to go to war with Germany.
He had actively been rallying the public to declare war on Germany for years at this point.
Also the American Navy was also kinda in a undeclared war against Germany, since they were attacking German submarines in the Atlantic
If that happened, Germany will most likely won that war
I love how in the thumbnail, Czechoslovakia looks a fist and Germany was raring for a fight
Liebensraum was a fallacy. Germany never wanted any war with Britain in the first place.. what should a country do if they're being bombed by a neighbouring country? If planes are carrying out night raids + dropping bombs on their cities[including hospitals] for 10 weeks straight, in the forlorn hope they might desist any day and they don't stop, what is the country under attack supposed to do? Every country has a breaking point. If Germany and her 5 allies[Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Italy(60,000 troops),Finland and 47,000 Spanish volunteers + 2 divisions of Belgian troops] didn't cross into the Soviet Union in June 1941, then the Reds were ultimately preparing to move into Europe (Russia had 170 divisions of soldiers at Europe's eastern front, and this doesn't get talked about)... Operation Barbarossa was a 6 nation attack. It was a pre-emptive strike to try to destroy the threat of Bolshevism forever...
I waited for this thanksssssss
Lore of What If Germany Never Invaded the Soviets? Momentum 100
There were some things which would be possible in case if Germans didn't invade Soviets. Germans also was researching nuclear weapon, they also were researched rocket weapons and jet planes (and jet bombers). Without eastern front problems German had 3 million troops more against western allies (in Africa) for example (they may probably conquer all Egypt, and other oil and materials rich areas). Till 1945 nazis could build more than 5000 jet planes and bombers and some little nuclear bombs which would change the balance of power and support Japan on Pacific (at least in Indochina).
Can you make a video about what would happen if Napoleon never lost. realisticilly.
If Germany doesn't do Barbarossa and the starvation campaign that followed in Ukraine, the German public will starve in no more than 6 months and the German war effort will collapse. Finis.
And they had already been starving the rest of Europe for 6 months prior to that point to keep the German home front fed, which should give you some idea of just how impossible the idea of them _not invading the Soviet Union_ was.
Norway?
(Please do a what if everything went perfect for Norway scenario)
3:59 The average hoi4 game when you're allied with italy
Video idea: What if the Ottoman Empire collapsed in 1912?
PossibleHistory try not to glaze the allies challenge level: impossible
What part was glaze