Would probably start with the west roman empire surviving at least in the Italian peninsula and being the base of a Italian state... Would probably still need to be settled with Germans though, as Italy is a blend of Latin with germanic influence as far as I know. But maybe rome doesn't need to fall for that this time around.
Venice was, at one point, one of the world's leading superpowers, being able to bring the Ottomans, the Pope, and the Holy Roman Emperor to negotiation through economic and industrial might alone. They maintained a, while thoroughly corrupt, democracy from the fall of Rome until Napoleon's conquest of Italty. So, this begs the question: *What if everything went perfectly for Venice?* P.S. You could also do if Lotharingia survived (though I know that's out of your usual time frame) or *if the Steam Engine was never invented*
Well no, it was remarkably non-corrupt and it was not a democracy. It functioned overall as intended, hence it was not corrupt, and it was not a democracy as they just.... Didn't have democratic institutions, really. The point of their republic was to prevent one singular person or dynasty from dominating politics, which I think they did a very good job at considering how heavily the rest of the medieval world moved towards feudalism compared to them. I agree that a video about what if everything went perfectly for them would be very cool!
@@loldiamond1017 Yeah I forgot the exact details of their Republic and opted to not assume perfection. I also totally mixed them up with Florentine politics, which led to the Corruption thing. Obviously, I was also coming at it with a Democratic mindset, and embarrassingly equated Democratic ideals and Republicanism. Especially since the Republicanism aspect is far more interesting than any Democratic aspect might be, as it links them to their Roman roots in a more dignified way than many other successor states. That they *were* a Republic implies Republicanism was still an important sentiment even into the fall of Rome, which I've always low-key believed, but have found it exceedingly difficult to find any substantial reading or proof on the matter. The fact that the Emperor was adamant he wasn't a King and merely the "first citizen" / "first among equals (in Senate)" sort of leads me to believe that the ideals of Republicanism, if bastardized, lived on. Perhaps even more-so in the Western Roman Empire, as they see tyrants rampaging across their nation, as opposed to the relative serene stability awarded by the Senate. Even after the Senate's "fall" the Papacy, in many ways, was set up with Republican ideals. That was a side-track, but we were already talking about Venetian Republicanism, so I figure you're the type of guy to be interested in this too, lmao.
@@bukanIqbal375 "My lord we have achived a extremaly minor gain of influence in one of unintresting provinces located in South American nation of Bolivia" "Satisfactory"
@@thetoscunymapper it was 12 years before. Garibaldi was much younger and was still looking up to Mazzini as a mentor. By 1860 Garibaldi was much more experienced and now firmly opposing Mazzini's strategies (to say one, Garibaldi was strongly against political assassinations, Mazzini was actively organising several).
One of the biggest changes on this timeline would actually occour in Argentina and Uruguay, they got a bigger italian inmigration than the US at the time, and there culture is HEAVY influenced by italian (even the rioplatence accent is know as spanish speaked as italian), plus you dont get things like tango or milonga. So, in that timeline both Argentina and Uruguay would (culturally) be complete different than today.
@@barsukascooli think that if the decembrists had either planned better for a situation where they are not on time kr had been better organized with better support from the military then it is (though kinda unrealistic) possible for them to have overthrown the tsar and turned Russia into a republic (likely through a civil war maybe) but supposing Russia doesnt collapse from it, it would be interesting to see how a more liberal Russia under the control of a Military Junta, Dictatorship, or Republic would develop and how that would affect Russias relations with other european powers. I know that there were leagues in Europe that were meant yo prevent revolutions but it is simply an knteresting idea to me and id be happy to see a video about this
New video dropped! What if Norway and Sweden accepted the Franco-British plans in the Winter War? Edit: maybe another scenario, since this was already covered, What about if Sweden and Norway sent MORE help to Finland?
@@confusedmango6557 During early stages of ww2, France and Britain made multiple offers to send troops through neutral Norway and Sweden, which they declined in the fear of their countries being drawn into the war.
@@confusedmango6557 France and Britain wanted to send troops to Finland to fight the Soviets via Norway and Sweden. Their offer would have meant sending troops through the part of Norway that exported Sweden's steel to Germany. It basically pushed Germany to invade, while also making it so Norway also had to worry about Britain causing their whole response to be messy.
There's one very interesting butterfly you haven't mentioned. Hitler's Beer Hall Putche may not happen, as this event was in large part inspired by Mussolini's March on Rome. And without the shakeup of this regional coup failing, the Nazi Party wouldn't have decided on seizing power in Germany via elections instead of coups. Nazi Germany would have either not happened at all, or it would have happened in a successful coup later and may thus lack international recognition from opposed powers. Either way, German history in the 1920-30s is irrevocably altered just because Sardinia-Piedmont's King rejected Garibaldi's southern annexation in 1861.
I always found the Beer Hall Putsch to be a bit bizarre. What would it have accomplished other than a Not-Commune of Munich being quickly put down by the nation? Did they think the masses and the military were this close to a nationwide reactionary-rebellion and would instantly rally behind them?
i think you're overestimating the importance of single events vs the slow gradual forces that created nazism. its gonna take a lot more to significantly change the course of the weimar republic than one failed coup maybe not happening
Fun scenario, just a little correction: the success of Garibaldi in the south (and Italy) was thanks the southern nobility that in large part maintained their land privileges after unification (one of the reasons why the south was left behind), so you should have address that. Also, thanks to Cavor reforms parts of the north were already well developed (1/3 of the Austrian state’s revenues come from Lombardy-Veneto), so must likely north and south would be equal in this scenario Good work anyway 🇳🇱❤🇮🇹
Yeah he kind made out Southern Italy victory to have been more developed and successful Italy when it’s really likely it wouldn’t have been as successful as shown in his timeline. It’s likely some reforms occur but there would always be some nobility that remain
@@funghi2606 North was alredy more industrialised, this is correct. But the success of Garibaldi has little to do with local nobility. Local nobility either opposed or was neutral, with few exceptions. Most of the people Garibaldi recruited while on campaign (accounting at the end to nearly 50k) were revolting peasants who were often revolting also against the ancien regime style nobility. And while temporary dictator Garibaldi did many reforms in favour of peasants. After few months he resigned power and gave the South to Vittorio Emanuele. Some of his reforms were thus revoked, but Garibaldi was of course not happy about this.
The impact of fascism in Italy spreading to the rest of the world is understated here. Fascism was started in Italy, and the word "Fascism" is derived from the Italian Fascismo. The idea of fascism would be far more spread out, it is likely the Falangists identify as National Syndicalists, and Carlists would be fundamentally at odds with them, hampering chances of a Francoist Spain. Nazism would likely be the standardbearer of fascism in this world, and Nazism would fundamentally be different, without the influence of Italy, National Socialism would be primarily dictated by the ideas of Johann Plenge and Strasser rather than Mussolini's Italy, which inspired Hitler. Also if we say the war starts with Agadir Crisis(with the Italo-Turkish and Balkan Wars having happened before that) then we can say that Germany likely gets defeated faster with a stronger Italy and Balkans against Austria-Hungary, then it is likely the war ends by around 1915 or 1916, so that changes some stuff in the timeline, like Franz Joseph dies at the end of the war, likely meaning he tries fighting for longer and Austria-Hungary completely collapses to internal rebellion and invasion in a far more dramatic way instead of the "slow fall" they took during their last days. Maybe Austria and Hungary see communist revolutions which pair with the Spartikus Revolution. In Russia, maybe things go about the same way, the military is still reeling from the humiliation of the Russo-Japanese War so Russia could still fall to Revolution.
I honestly doubt that would change much. Franco won the Civil War because from the beginning he dominated the military, and systematically that professional military rolled across the Republican and Anarchist militias. Similar thing in Germany: Hitler was made Chancellor by appointment by the previous Chancellor trying to keep deomcratically popular communists out of the cabinet by appointed a weak fringe politician as a puppet (which backfired when he used the legal powers of the Chancellor to use mass police action and election fraud to gain control of the government seats overall, it still took about 3 attempts in a row) Ideology is mostly an academic thing, in reality it always comes down to physical power. Its like with Soviet Russia, the fringe Bolsheviks seized power in a coup and built a new military to enforce control and largely acted the same as Tsarist Russia despite supposed opposite ideology (led by absolute leaders, appointed governors and politicians, forced Russian language and culture, tries to keep imperial 'natural' borders, kept gulags and secret police, did ethnic forced relocations, central government seizing regional food causing targeted famines, controlled press and media opposing corrupting West) Just like in Spain, Germany and all the other ideologue dictatorships across the globe it all starts in a coup and held up by violently controlling military and government. The particular ideas would even be swapped as necessary eg Truijjo was both a staunch fascist and when opposing the US an eternal communist but the dictatorship never changed, ideology is always cheap and pointless outside academia
Great job with the video ! This video made me think, there were so many Italian nationalists who wanted Italy united under a federation, Italy almost united into a federation in 1859 if only the great powers actually materialised their agreement, and yet Italy united under a unitary republic, with federalism being reduced to just a North Italian movement. There are proposals for "differentiated autonomy" but that would be too little too late. It is incredible how close we were to federalism and how many nationalists wanted it, and yet we got the (arguably worse) unitary state.
@@thenamesianna Almost nobody wanted a federation. It was a proposal by Gioberti with very limited support and most of its support come from pragmatist who believed it was easier to convince Dukes and Kings to federate rater than conquer them. None of the main players was federalist. Garibaldi was not, Mazzini was not, Cavour was not. Also Italy didn't unified as a Republic, but as a Kingdom. It became a Republic only in 1946, after WWII.
Garibaldi was not a federalist, that was Gioberti. Garibaldi never expressed sympathy for federalism. Huge blunder that invalidate most of the reasoning.
@@hazelarson6970 Best source I reccomend are his own Memoirs, pubblished in 1872. Nothing better than his own words to describe his political ideas. I don't know if there is an English translation, but seems likely.
By this point, the mafia had existed for about three or four hundred years, so it's somewhat odd to say that the mafia never exist because of reforms in the 1800s
Mafia was just a remnant of feudalism or bands of small city criminals like in Naples (basically they were managing illegal lotto gambles). It started becoming a thing with the new Italian government, that used mafia to fight independentist partesans
It is likely to also impact the European fascist movements as for example now Mosley can't go to Italy and see it, and Ukrainian nationalists could now see the success of a liberal republican Italian reunification so instead of fascist influence they could be more liberal possibly staying true to the ideals of UNR thus possibly having better relations with the Allied powers
The Beer Hall Putche likely doesn't happen either, as this was inspired by Mussolini marching on Rome. And without the Beer Hall thing, the Nazis don't engage in mainstream German politics and stay focused on gaining power illegitimately. Which either means they don't get into power or they'd lack some international recognition if they still get power. Neither outcome is great for the Nazis in longterm.
Other big issue is that Sardinia Piedmont did denounce the expedition but nevertheless still invaded the papal states and marched against Garibaldi to prevent him getting any strange ideas. When Garibaldi capitulated the Bourbons he found himself in front of the Piedmontese army with the king which gave him a veil threat “Step aside Garibaldi your troops are tired, mine aren’t” if Garibaldi refused he would just lose and the unification will still happen although with less unity and a much more internally disunited politics.
Great video as always, but I think it could have benefited if it included a timeline where neither Italian state decides to push into Rome, fearing war with the other one Though it seems a bit unrealistic I admit, it would have made a fun timeline imo
Yeah it’s possible they might last longer but they were in a much more divided situation which with Italy supporting the moderate republicans, that just alienated the socialist and anarchist supported by USSR
@@belodie Britain was allied with the Kingdom of Sicily. Conquer your own allies is dangerous long term since it may dissuade any other to become your allies in the future.
@@mrvoice3436But irl italians put things like olives on pizza, or anchovies. I think the Greek guy making pizza in Canada was just copying the traditions. Now American square pizzas, thats a cultural attack
@@mrvoice3436 actually, without mass Italian emigration to the United States, it's likely the American pizza market doesn't take off in the way it did in our timeline (which was responsible for the worldwide spread of pizza)
I'm so torn between feeling like the last scenario would have been awesome and knowing that that would have meant hearing southerners boast about their superiority (okok, this is basically a joke, a scenario in which Italy is more prosperous, the north-south divide is lessened and most importantly organized crime is weak is golden, I'd sign for it in an isntant)
A 3rd scenarion which I'm disappointed that you didn't cover was the notion of neither side winning a decisive victory in their squabble over Rome. If a war for the central Italian region (Rome and the surrounding Lazio, along with Umbria and the Marches), didn't result in a single decisive victor, this could lead to a partition of the territories - possibly with a small area around Rome itself remaining under international observation - and a continued divide between separate Italian states in the north and south. Not all wars end up in one side gaining total victory over the other, and at any rate, I think that the scenario of a sort of semi-disunity continuing in the Italian peninsula late into the 1800s and even into the 1900s could have been a fascinating section of this video.
What if everything went perfectly for Hungary? It could have a POD of 1200's with the mongol invasion, which would drastically change the demographics of Hungary
Honestly you could've added that Italy requested a protectorate over the areas around Laibach/Lubiana/Ljubljana and the areas around Agram/Zagabria/Zagreb so Serbia gets its borders from the 1915 London Treaty
I'm surprised you didn't go more into the federalist aspect as that would have been relevant to both Austria-Hungary and Germany before and after ww1, you just skipped over the peace deal assuming it would all be the same, but would a federalist-republican Italy not have more to say other than their own direct gains?
>this probably prevents the rise of Mussolini Then why does that map at the end have a Vatican City State? I am a little surprised that the whole cultural force of the Catholic Church was omitted in this video.
Unfortunately I don’t think id ever be born without the immigration to the new world and no mass popularity of italian American cuisine in this timeline too 😢
I'm not the biggest fan of geographic determinism, but North Italy has a lot of advantages like better soil quality in the Po river valley and not being covered in tons of mountains that leads it to having a much easier time industrializing that I don't think a southern Italian republic could overcome.
Im totally making a new NRP server based off this video as a part of the lore, probably going more into detail though. This is my favorite video now, no doubt ❤️
It’s crazy how this change in the unification makes Italy far better overall. This Italy would be considered the successor of the pre Marian Roman republic but without the imperialist aims or at least they’re toned down. One thing I see is that without the immigration to the Americans, I see those millions of Italians going to Libya and the Horn of Africa. Historically there were Italians people that had lived there. Those colonies would probably be more profitable than the OG timeline. I would like to think that the natives would be treated but I doubt that.
I love yor content❤❤❤ and I have idea for video: If Prague was the capital city of Habsburg monarchy, then in year 1619, durig the Bohemian Revolt in Prague, then the rovelters conquered the capital city of Habsburg monarchy - Prague and Ferdinand 2nd surrendered and Frederick 5th of Palatinate become king of the Habsburg monarchy. In year 1685 when Frederick's grandson Charles 2nd died without sons, his brother-in-law (brother of his wife) Christian 5th Danish and Norwegian king became king of Danubian kingdom (Habsburg monarchy). In reality in year 1740 Frederick 2nd (Prussian king) attacked Silesia because of destability of Habsburg monarchy and because of someone's non-recognition of Maria Theresa as queen, but in this alternative history it didn't happened, because Oldenburg monarchy (Habsburg monarchy and Denmark-Norway) was stable, everyone recognize Christian 6th as king and Oldenburg monarchy was more times bigger than Prussia. In year 1814 after the unsucceful Norwegian war of indepence the Oldenburg monarchy became federation of three states - Norway, Denmark and Danubia. After 50 years in year 1867 the federak state Danubia splits into 2 federal states - Bohemia and Hungary. In this alternative history duke Franz Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, but successor to the throne and first born son of Christian 10th - Frederick instead. The great war was going on just like in Reality. If the great war win Triple Alliance, then Knut Christian (second born son of Christian 10th) ruled the Denmark-Norway and the part of Oldenburg monarchy in Central Europe (Federal states Bohemia and Hungary) was split like in reality, but Silesia and North and South Lusatia were part of Czechoslovakia. You can edit it a bit. If you make video about this I will be happy.❤❤❤❤
Actually in the first case, when monarchists beat the republicans, san marino would get annexed. The only reason it was not united in our timeline was because they helped garibaldi escape prosecution. Also in my opinion as long as the north does not have a radical monarchist in charge and the south a radical republican, the most likeley outcome is that as soon as france leaves rome, they jointly occupy the city and agree on some type of compromise constitutional-monarchist unification agreement.
I’ve got a couple of suggestions. What if the colonization of Africa did not happen in the same light (like what I mean is the Berlin conference didn’t happen) and how would it affect World War One and the balance of power in Europe. Or what if the Ottomans were more stable pre First World War?
Another interesting twist: before 1861, there was a huge network of pro-unity intellectuals all over the peninsula and Napoli (that was the biggest city in Italy) this community was thriving. They fought for pushing Bourbons to issue a constitution but they failed and this was the start of the end of the kingdom of two sicilies. What if they were able to bring democracy in the South first and start a paceful unification with Kingdom of Sardinia? Still Italy could have started as a federation
Honestly, I think the south supporting the Austrians is very likely. At this point, Austria did not want to reclaim Lombardy, and they were willing to give up Vêneto for support against Prussia. Italy only went to war against the Austrians because they thought they could get more lands. Of course, this didn’t happen, given how poorly Italy fought in the war. However, i can see a scenario where Austria gives up their dominion over Venice to the south in compensation for an independent north.
What if everything went perfectly For italy? Love your content btw
hello temporary top comment
Yes please
Yes
Would probably start with the west roman empire surviving at least in the Italian peninsula and being the base of a Italian state... Would probably still need to be settled with Germans though, as Italy is a blend of Latin with germanic influence as far as I know. But maybe rome doesn't need to fall for that this time around.
Please edit your comment to fix grammar. Change ‘perfectly’ with ‘perfect’. Change ‘For’ to ‘for’. Change ‘italy’ to ‘Italy’.
Venice was, at one point, one of the world's leading superpowers, being able to bring the Ottomans, the Pope, and the Holy Roman Emperor to negotiation through economic and industrial might alone.
They maintained a, while thoroughly corrupt, democracy from the fall of Rome until Napoleon's conquest of Italty.
So, this begs the question: *What if everything went perfectly for Venice?*
P.S. You could also do if Lotharingia survived (though I know that's out of your usual time frame) or *if the Steam Engine was never invented*
Well no, it was remarkably non-corrupt and it was not a democracy.
It functioned overall as intended, hence it was not corrupt, and it was not a democracy as they just.... Didn't have democratic institutions, really.
The point of their republic was to prevent one singular person or dynasty from dominating politics, which I think they did a very good job at considering how heavily the rest of the medieval world moved towards feudalism compared to them.
I agree that a video about what if everything went perfectly for them would be very cool!
@@loldiamond1017 it was oligarchy if anything. With positions being usually in a select elite (just see the complex government system they have)
@@board-qu9iu Exactly, and that was by design.
Thirded. Venice has always fascinated me for how long it lasted with such widespread influence in spite of its size.
@@loldiamond1017 Yeah I forgot the exact details of their Republic and opted to not assume perfection. I also totally mixed them up with Florentine politics, which led to the Corruption thing. Obviously, I was also coming at it with a Democratic mindset, and embarrassingly equated Democratic ideals and Republicanism. Especially since the Republicanism aspect is far more interesting than any Democratic aspect might be, as it links them to their Roman roots in a more dignified way than many other successor states.
That they *were* a Republic implies Republicanism was still an important sentiment even into the fall of Rome, which I've always low-key believed, but have found it exceedingly difficult to find any substantial reading or proof on the matter.
The fact that the Emperor was adamant he wasn't a King and merely the "first citizen" / "first among equals (in Senate)" sort of leads me to believe that the ideals of Republicanism, if bastardized, lived on. Perhaps even more-so in the Western Roman Empire, as they see tyrants rampaging across their nation, as opposed to the relative serene stability awarded by the Senate. Even after the Senate's "fall" the Papacy, in many ways, was set up with Republican ideals.
That was a side-track, but we were already talking about Venetian Republicanism, so I figure you're the type of guy to be interested in this too, lmao.
5:12
I love how the British are always excited when they can gain influence in random places 😂
"Sir, we have gained 0.1% of influence in a random Province in Bolivia."
"Yippee!"
@@bukanIqbal375🤣🤣
Well it is the Mediterranean sea so not really random
@@bukanIqbal375 "My lord we have achived a extremaly minor gain of influence in one of unintresting provinces located in South American nation of Bolivia"
"Satisfactory"
That's how you become a superpower in modern history
>Lots of Boats
>Lots of Trade
> Lots of friends
6:35 i actually think that 1 of the 4 "Fathers of Italy" Mazzini would be chose, his ideology was similar to Garibaldi's one, great video!
Mazzini was seen as too radical even from Garibaldi's point of view.
@@barrankobama4840 but in the Republica Romana they have work togeter
@@thetoscunymapper it was 12 years before.
Garibaldi was much younger and was still looking up to Mazzini as a mentor. By 1860 Garibaldi was much more experienced and now firmly opposing Mazzini's strategies (to say one, Garibaldi was strongly against political assassinations, Mazzini was actively organising several).
@@barrankobama4840but i think that (in my opinion) that if not Mazzini Will sponsor a campaign against Garibaldi's and the guy Who he chose
One of the biggest changes on this timeline would actually occour in Argentina and Uruguay, they got a bigger italian inmigration than the US at the time, and there culture is HEAVY influenced by italian (even the rioplatence accent is know as spanish speaked as italian), plus you dont get things like tango or milonga. So, in that timeline both Argentina and Uruguay would (culturally) be complete different than today.
I say immigration is still likely but it definitely would result in their cultures being different
I live in Brazil, in the southern part, and here there was a REALLY big Italian immigration too
@@davidpicheti yeah I remember there being a significant Italian-Brazilian group even still significant today
@@board-qu9iu yeah I'm actually Italian-Brazilian
I love this, its always neat to imagine political changes on a map but the changes to culture and language that are overlooked are also really cool
I love the transformation of the Ottoman color throughout! Just a note, the Ottomans didn't lose Kars and Batum until 1878.
Fr
suggestion: What if the Decembrist Revolution Succeded in Russia
How tho? Also I think he did it already like 3 years ago.
@@barsukascooli think that if the decembrists had either planned better for a situation where they are not on time kr had been better organized with better support from the military then it is (though kinda unrealistic) possible for them to have overthrown the tsar and turned Russia into a republic (likely through a civil war maybe) but supposing Russia doesnt collapse from it, it would be interesting to see how a more liberal Russia under the control of a Military Junta, Dictatorship, or Republic would develop and how that would affect Russias relations with other european powers. I know that there were leagues in Europe that were meant yo prevent revolutions but it is simply an knteresting idea to me and id be happy to see a video about this
@@borisrodionov1340 agreed
Oh This Wasn't A Joke, THERE WAS A "Decembrist Revolution??"
@@RaydanClubbs What?
New video dropped!
What if Norway and Sweden accepted the Franco-British plans in the Winter War?
Edit: maybe another scenario, since this was already covered, What about if Sweden and Norway sent MORE help to Finland?
what i don get it
@@confusedmango6557 During early stages of ww2, France and Britain made multiple offers to send troops through neutral Norway and Sweden, which they declined in the fear of their countries being drawn into the war.
@@PeekasLukkalathat’s propaganda. They only wanted to do that to secure swedens iron mines because that’s where most of Germany’s iron came from
@@confusedmango6557 France and Britain wanted to send troops to Finland to fight the Soviets via Norway and Sweden. Their offer would have meant sending troops through the part of Norway that exported Sweden's steel to Germany. It basically pushed Germany to invade, while also making it so Norway also had to worry about Britain causing their whole response to be messy.
He basically already covered that in his "what if ww2 was a three-way war" video
There's one very interesting butterfly you haven't mentioned. Hitler's Beer Hall Putche may not happen, as this event was in large part inspired by Mussolini's March on Rome. And without the shakeup of this regional coup failing, the Nazi Party wouldn't have decided on seizing power in Germany via elections instead of coups. Nazi Germany would have either not happened at all, or it would have happened in a successful coup later and may thus lack international recognition from opposed powers. Either way, German history in the 1920-30s is irrevocably altered just because Sardinia-Piedmont's King rejected Garibaldi's southern annexation in 1861.
I always found the Beer Hall Putsch to be a bit bizarre.
What would it have accomplished other than a Not-Commune of Munich being quickly put down by the nation?
Did they think the masses and the military were this close to a nationwide reactionary-rebellion and would instantly rally behind them?
Good point
i think you're overestimating the importance of single events vs the slow gradual forces that created nazism. its gonna take a lot more to significantly change the course of the weimar republic than one failed coup maybe not happening
Fun scenario, just a little correction: the success of Garibaldi in the south (and Italy) was thanks the southern nobility that in large part maintained their land privileges after unification (one of the reasons why the south was left behind), so you should have address that. Also, thanks to Cavor reforms parts of the north were already well developed (1/3 of the Austrian state’s revenues come from Lombardy-Veneto), so must likely north and south would be equal in this scenario
Good work anyway 🇳🇱❤🇮🇹
Yeah he kind made out Southern Italy victory to have been more developed and successful Italy when it’s really likely it wouldn’t have been as successful as shown in his timeline. It’s likely some reforms occur but there would always be some nobility that remain
@@funghi2606 North was alredy more industrialised, this is correct. But the success of Garibaldi has little to do with local nobility. Local nobility either opposed or was neutral, with few exceptions. Most of the people Garibaldi recruited while on campaign (accounting at the end to nearly 50k) were revolting peasants who were often revolting also against the ancien regime style nobility.
And while temporary dictator Garibaldi did many reforms in favour of peasants.
After few months he resigned power and gave the South to Vittorio Emanuele. Some of his reforms were thus revoked, but Garibaldi was of course not happy about this.
The impact of fascism in Italy spreading to the rest of the world is understated here. Fascism was started in Italy, and the word "Fascism" is derived from the Italian Fascismo. The idea of fascism would be far more spread out, it is likely the Falangists identify as National Syndicalists, and Carlists would be fundamentally at odds with them, hampering chances of a Francoist Spain. Nazism would likely be the standardbearer of fascism in this world, and Nazism would fundamentally be different, without the influence of Italy, National Socialism would be primarily dictated by the ideas of Johann Plenge and Strasser rather than Mussolini's Italy, which inspired Hitler. Also if we say the war starts with Agadir Crisis(with the Italo-Turkish and Balkan Wars having happened before that) then we can say that Germany likely gets defeated faster with a stronger Italy and Balkans against Austria-Hungary, then it is likely the war ends by around 1915 or 1916, so that changes some stuff in the timeline, like Franz Joseph dies at the end of the war, likely meaning he tries fighting for longer and Austria-Hungary completely collapses to internal rebellion and invasion in a far more dramatic way instead of the "slow fall" they took during their last days. Maybe Austria and Hungary see communist revolutions which pair with the Spartikus Revolution. In Russia, maybe things go about the same way, the military is still reeling from the humiliation of the Russo-Japanese War so Russia could still fall to Revolution.
I honestly doubt that would change much.
Franco won the Civil War because from the beginning he dominated the military, and systematically that professional military rolled across the Republican and Anarchist militias.
Similar thing in Germany: Hitler was made Chancellor by appointment by the previous Chancellor trying to keep deomcratically popular communists out of the cabinet by appointed a weak fringe politician as a puppet (which backfired when he used the legal powers of the Chancellor to use mass police action and election fraud to gain control of the government seats overall, it still took about 3 attempts in a row)
Ideology is mostly an academic thing, in reality it always comes down to physical power. Its like with Soviet Russia, the fringe Bolsheviks seized power in a coup and built a new military to enforce control and largely acted the same as Tsarist Russia despite supposed opposite ideology (led by absolute leaders, appointed governors and politicians, forced Russian language and culture, tries to keep imperial 'natural' borders, kept gulags and secret police, did ethnic forced relocations, central government seizing regional food causing targeted famines, controlled press and media opposing corrupting West)
Just like in Spain, Germany and all the other ideologue dictatorships across the globe it all starts in a coup and held up by violently controlling military and government. The particular ideas would even be swapped as necessary eg Truijjo was both a staunch fascist and when opposing the US an eternal communist but the dictatorship never changed, ideology is always cheap and pointless outside academia
As someone with Soran background, I am glad you include the duchy of Sora in your maps covering the period it existed.
As a southerner I love this scenario ❤️
Great job with the video ! This video made me think, there were so many Italian nationalists who wanted Italy united under a federation, Italy almost united into a federation in 1859 if only the great powers actually materialised their agreement, and yet Italy united under a unitary republic, with federalism being reduced to just a North Italian movement. There are proposals for "differentiated autonomy" but that would be too little too late. It is incredible how close we were to federalism and how many nationalists wanted it, and yet we got the (arguably worse) unitary state.
@@thenamesianna Almost nobody wanted a federation. It was a proposal by Gioberti with very limited support and most of its support come from pragmatist who believed it was easier to convince Dukes and Kings to federate rater than conquer them.
None of the main players was federalist.
Garibaldi was not, Mazzini was not, Cavour was not.
Also Italy didn't unified as a Republic, but as a Kingdom. It became a Republic only in 1946, after WWII.
Garibaldi was not a federalist, that was Gioberti. Garibaldi never expressed sympathy for federalism. Huge blunder that invalidate most of the reasoning.
Can you post the source? I'm curious
@@hazelarson6970 Best source I reccomend are his own Memoirs, pubblished in 1872. Nothing better than his own words to describe his political ideas. I don't know if there is an English translation, but seems likely.
easy solution, have Gioberti be with Garibaldi for the two Sicily invasion.
this could kick off Napoleon the third's opposition to the timeline.
By this point, the mafia had existed for about three or four hundred years, so it's somewhat odd to say that the mafia never exist because of reforms in the 1800s
One could argue that there's always been a Mafia, since the Roman era
It seems to mean that they wouldn't exist today, but yes, the mafia was not a purely 20th century thing.
Mafia was just a remnant of feudalism or bands of small city criminals like in Naples (basically they were managing illegal lotto gambles). It started becoming a thing with the new Italian government, that used mafia to fight independentist partesans
The mafia is a result of the political structure left by the eastern roman empire's control of southern italy
Suggestion:
What if the good relations of the USA and Russian empire turned into a full on alliance after the sale of Alaska?
Impossibile USA favorite Britain and France
You're trying to transplant WW1 USA into an earlier time period. They were a whole lot more neutral than that during the sale.
You've transplanted the WW1 USA into a different time period. They were noticeably more neutral at this point.
@@gengarzilla1685Hell even the in the 1930s there was semi-serious discussion of opportunistically -invading- liberating Canada.
It is likely to also impact the European fascist movements as for example now Mosley can't go to Italy and see it, and Ukrainian nationalists could now see the success of a liberal republican Italian reunification so instead of fascist influence they could be more liberal possibly staying true to the ideals of UNR thus possibly having better relations with the Allied powers
genuinely insane how u were able to come up with this (i like it)
The Beer Hall Putche likely doesn't happen either, as this was inspired by Mussolini marching on Rome. And without the Beer Hall thing, the Nazis don't engage in mainstream German politics and stay focused on gaining power illegitimately. Which either means they don't get into power or they'd lack some international recognition if they still get power. Neither outcome is great for the Nazis in longterm.
Considering it was the birthplace of the Roman Empire it's still hard to believe how late Italy was to unify. First in and first out I guess.
Just a little pronunciation note from an Italian: we say Lombardìa and Vèneto. Love your content btw
Your maps keep getting better! Amazing work 🔥🔥🔥🔥
I love how even in alternate history there is still and always will be a “France vs Britain”
As is tradition
Other big issue is that Sardinia Piedmont did denounce the expedition but nevertheless still invaded the papal states and marched against Garibaldi to prevent him getting any strange ideas. When Garibaldi capitulated the Bourbons he found himself in front of the Piedmontese army with the king which gave him a veil threat “Step aside Garibaldi your troops are tired, mine aren’t” if Garibaldi refused he would just lose and the unification will still happen although with less unity and a much more internally disunited politics.
Great video as always, but I think it could have benefited if it included a timeline where neither Italian state decides to push into Rome, fearing war with the other one
Though it seems a bit unrealistic I admit, it would have made a fun timeline imo
I actually think it’s possible. they might make a neutral papal state in order to keep a peace in the region
I wish the Anglosphere uniting was still one of the planned videos. That personally seemed one of the most interesting to me.
really don't see where would it go. literally all of anglosphere is allied to each other for the last 100+ years
Wouldn't that just be tbe British Empire continuing? Either as normal or via American Revolution spreading back to England.
Good scenario, except Spain part. Republicans were hopeless. They would still lose even with Italy's support on their side
Yeah it’s possible they might last longer but they were in a much more divided situation which with Italy supporting the moderate republicans, that just alienated the socialist and anarchist supported by USSR
What if Britain didn't leave Sicily (the island, not the other Kingdom of Sicily) after the Napoleonic wars?
The Kingdom of Sicily was partitioned by Naples and Aragon.
@@belodie Britain was allied with the Kingdom of Sicily. Conquer your own allies is dangerous long term since it may dissuade any other to become your allies in the future.
Saw someone comment about a Decemberist Revolt alt hist and I want to say I second it!
Dang, if he did this then Pizza wouldn't have Pineapple on it!
What does that canadian war crime have to do with this
@@User-dyn with Italy being this strong, Canada wouldn't dare desecrate their culture
fr
@@mrvoice3436But irl italians put things like olives on pizza, or anchovies.
I think the Greek guy making pizza in Canada was just copying the traditions.
Now American square pizzas, thats a cultural attack
@@mrvoice3436 actually, without mass Italian emigration to the United States, it's likely the American pizza market doesn't take off in the way it did in our timeline (which was responsible for the worldwide spread of pizza)
video idea:
what if Japan took manchuria after the first sino-japanese war
I'm so torn between feeling like the last scenario would have been awesome and knowing that that would have meant hearing southerners boast about their superiority (okok, this is basically a joke, a scenario in which Italy is more prosperous, the north-south divide is lessened and most importantly organized crime is weak is golden, I'd sign for it in an isntant)
A 3rd scenarion which I'm disappointed that you didn't cover was the notion of neither side winning a decisive victory in their squabble over Rome.
If a war for the central Italian region (Rome and the surrounding Lazio, along with Umbria and the Marches), didn't result in a single decisive victor, this could lead to a partition of the territories - possibly with a small area around Rome itself remaining under international observation - and a continued divide between separate Italian states in the north and south. Not all wars end up in one side gaining total victory over the other, and at any rate, I think that the scenario of a sort of semi-disunity continuing in the Italian peninsula late into the 1800s and even into the 1900s could have been a fascinating section of this video.
Now that’s an Italy every Italian can be proud of
What if History Went Perfect for the Paris Commune?
The amount of detail on these new maps are impeccable 👌!
I really waited for this video
What if everything went perfectly for Hungary? It could have a POD of 1200's with the mongol invasion, which would drastically change the demographics of Hungary
Honestly you could've added that Italy requested a protectorate over the areas around Laibach/Lubiana/Ljubljana and the areas around Agram/Zagabria/Zagreb so Serbia gets its borders from the 1915 London Treaty
Ironic how it was the South of Italy that fought the hardest to keep the monarchy after WW2.
What if the Nazis putsch in 1923 suceeded?
I'm surprised you didn't go more into the federalist aspect as that would have been relevant to both Austria-Hungary and Germany before and after ww1, you just skipped over the peace deal assuming it would all be the same, but would a federalist-republican Italy not have more to say other than their own direct gains?
>this probably prevents the rise of Mussolini
Then why does that map at the end have a Vatican City State? I am a little surprised that the whole cultural force of the Catholic Church was omitted in this video.
dont roast the perfect Italy scenario ☠️
Unfortunately I don’t think id ever be born without the immigration to the new world and no mass popularity of italian American cuisine in this timeline too 😢
I love when the piano hits, makes You feel how the world would be a better place
‘What if everything went perfect for Britain?’
The perfect Entente video seems to keep being pushed back on the upcoming list.
Video idea:what if Pyrrhus conquered Rome
Fun fact: Giuseppe fought in liberating the South of Brazil from the Empire, after it failed, he got to Italy and did a little bit of trolling
What if the British french empires collapsed after World war one
my notifications have been sending me to videos way earlier now
check out what PH says at 12:43
I'm not the biggest fan of geographic determinism, but North Italy has a lot of advantages like better soil quality in the Po river valley and not being covered in tons of mountains that leads it to having a much easier time industrializing that I don't think a southern Italian republic could overcome.
@@blueteamepsilon7798 North is also much closer to the main routes of trading at the time. Sea trading with Britain was relevant but mostly one sided.
Attempt two at suggesting this: what if everythint went perfect for Switzerland
Suggestion: What if the Serbian Empire won the battle of Martisa in 1371
Im totally making a new NRP server based off this video as a part of the lore, probably going more into detail though. This is my favorite video now, no doubt ❤️
mate!!!! can you do what if napoleon II aka napolean's son live longer and became emperor of France like his dad did!!!
My american brain started twisting in knots after hearing this 🤣2:07
Lol. Meanings change and sides shift.
That was weird for me too!
what if belisarius accepted the offer from ostrogoths and became emperor of west Roman empire ?
Headcanon: Garibaldi made the south a republic out of spite for Cavour giving up Garibaldi's hometown of Nice to France.
Nice Video! :D
Loved this scenario, thank you ❤🇮🇹🇳🇱
Pretty sure the white star line ship rms republic helped during the Messina earthquake
I’m pretty sure it was republic
Please make every modern empire vid
"What if EVERTHING went PERFECT for Italy" when?
Anyone happen to know what the music is that starts at 16:25?
Gary Baldy is one of my favourite generals in history
i guess the real italian unification was the friends we made along the way huh?
I have noticed a mistake in the map, Vatican didnt exist until 1929, I dont think that in this scenario it would make it exist earlier
Garibaldi remaining dictator of the Two Sicilies and then unifying Italy from there is the good ending.
It’s crazy how this change in the unification makes Italy far better overall. This Italy would be considered the successor of the pre Marian Roman republic but without the imperialist aims or at least they’re toned down. One thing I see is that without the immigration to the Americans, I see those millions of Italians going to Libya and the Horn of Africa. Historically there were Italians people that had lived there. Those colonies would probably be more profitable than the OG timeline. I would like to think that the natives would be treated but I doubt that.
Best alt history italy soo far,i just love it😢
It’s always somehow Napoleon😂
Well this was his nephew, Louis Napoleon aka Napoleon III but yeah.
4:18 missed opertunitu to color your republican italy red to match the flag
What if everything went perfect for the papal states?
Dude really hates Austria from the depth of his heart😂
Subscribed just now.
Love your videos. My idea for a video is. What if everyrhing went perfect to the Spanish Empire
I love yor content❤❤❤ and I have idea for video:
If Prague was the capital city of Habsburg monarchy, then in year 1619, durig the Bohemian Revolt in Prague, then the rovelters conquered the capital city of Habsburg monarchy - Prague and Ferdinand 2nd surrendered and Frederick 5th of Palatinate become king of the Habsburg monarchy. In year 1685 when Frederick's grandson Charles 2nd died without sons, his brother-in-law (brother of his wife) Christian 5th Danish and Norwegian king became king of Danubian kingdom (Habsburg monarchy). In reality in year 1740 Frederick 2nd (Prussian king) attacked Silesia because of destability of Habsburg monarchy and because of someone's non-recognition of Maria Theresa as queen, but in this alternative history it didn't happened, because Oldenburg monarchy (Habsburg monarchy and Denmark-Norway) was stable, everyone recognize Christian 6th as king and Oldenburg monarchy was more times bigger than Prussia. In year 1814 after the unsucceful Norwegian war of indepence the Oldenburg monarchy became federation of three states - Norway, Denmark and Danubia. After 50 years in year 1867 the federak state Danubia splits into 2 federal states - Bohemia and Hungary. In this alternative history duke Franz Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, but successor to the throne and first born son of Christian 10th - Frederick instead. The great war was going on just like in Reality. If the great war win Triple Alliance, then Knut Christian (second born son of Christian 10th) ruled the Denmark-Norway and the part of Oldenburg monarchy in Central Europe (Federal states Bohemia and Hungary) was split like in reality, but Silesia and North and South Lusatia were part of Czechoslovakia.
You can edit it a bit.
If you make video about this I will be happy.❤❤❤❤
If you ever need an idea (which I mean, maybe) I would love to see a “what if the Islamic conquest was halted?”
Suggestion: what if operation Valkirie (not sure if I spelled it right) was a success?
Can you do a what if Franz Joseph was assassinated video? There was an attempt bu a hungarian in 1851, it would've led to Maximillian becoming Kaiser.
Actually in the first case, when monarchists beat the republicans, san marino would get annexed. The only reason it was not united in our timeline was because they helped garibaldi escape prosecution.
Also in my opinion as long as the north does not have a radical monarchist in charge and the south a radical republican, the most likeley outcome is that as soon as france leaves rome, they jointly occupy the city and agree on some type of compromise constitutional-monarchist unification agreement.
What If Norway Created An Italian Republic In 1861?
(Please do a what if everything went perfect for Norway scenario)
bruh
What if Prussia kept Poland after the napoleonic wars
Russia gains some of Austrian poland Austria still keep Galicia Lublin to Russia
You should make this into that ww1 but you choose kind of thing with all the possible pods
What if everything went great for Croatia (pls)
what if everything went perfectly for the baltics?
Can you give us an updated link to your maps since the old one doesnt work anymore?
I’ve got a couple of suggestions. What if the colonization of Africa did not happen in the same light (like what I mean is the Berlin conference didn’t happen) and how would it affect World War One and the balance of power in Europe. Or what if the Ottomans were more stable pre First World War?
6:39 why not Mazzini?
Another interesting twist: before 1861, there was a huge network of pro-unity intellectuals all over the peninsula and Napoli (that was the biggest city in Italy) this community was thriving. They fought for pushing Bourbons to issue a constitution but they failed and this was the start of the end of the kingdom of two sicilies. What if they were able to bring democracy in the South first and start a paceful unification with Kingdom of Sardinia? Still Italy could have started as a federation
When will there be a new discord link? All the old ones are dead links.
Honestly, I think the south supporting the Austrians is very likely. At this point, Austria did not want to reclaim Lombardy, and they were willing to give up Vêneto for support against Prussia. Italy only went to war against the Austrians because they thought they could get more lands. Of course, this didn’t happen, given how poorly Italy fought in the war. However, i can see a scenario where Austria gives up their dominion over Venice to the south in compensation for an independent north.
Video 15 of asking Possible History for a video about "If Valery Sablin was succesful"
18:22 AHH WOODROW WILSON JUMPSCARE 🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮
😂😂😂😂
@@barsukascool one of the worst us presidents ever
What if Italy and Japan were against Germany during WW2?
suggestion: what if world war 1 is prevented (and how far back in time do we have to go)
I feel like Italian fascism wouldn't be a thing in this timeline, i wonder how Italian futurism will do tho
Really good idea
congrats for 300m
Can you put the maps back up?