You are not keeping up with research. Horses are known to have been in the Americas before Columbus, Chariots are fully possible, they have found objects with wheels in archeology sites... Steel tools and weapons are known to have existed, and steel was known of as far back as 13th century BC a simple google search will show that. Other evidence to be found.... They still don't know how the pyramids were built in Egypt, but you want "proof" of things that happened in the new world? Laughable.... @@randyjordan5521
@@randyjordan5521 most of which has been proved to have existed during that time. You really should read an article or two sometime. Also there was no mention of elephants. So maybe you should read the BOM sometime. Maybe you should just read before you comment 🙃
@@brandonkayla There were small, prehistoric horses in the Americas, but no modern domesticated ones. The first domesticated horses were brought to the Americas by the Spaniards in the 1500s. There were no chariots or any other wheeled conveyances in the Americas before Columbus, because native Americans had no draft animals to pull them. The largest domesticated animals in the Americas before Columbus was the dog. There were no smelted metal tools or weaponry in the Americas during "Book of Mormon times." The only metal that Pre-Columbian Americans used was raw iron ore which they used as ornaments. I suggest that you read an internet article titled "How do you lose a steel mill?" As for elephants, the Book of Mormon states this: "And also all manner of cattle, ... and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man. And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms. (Ether 9:16-19)" There were no modern domesticated elephants in the Americas before Columbus. The only animal even close to elephants were prehistoric mastodons, which went extinct during the last Ice Age, along with other species such as the saber cat, giant sloth, and the dire wolf. So it's kinda funny that you tell me that I should read the BOM before I comment, when you don't even know that it mentions elephants being "useful to man." I have studied these issues for 30 years. You could learn all of this by surfing the internet for ten minutes, instead of showing your ignorance by writing what you wrote.
I have had a really good chuckle today listening to this podcast. Thank you for your work and humour., RFM. If I only had the courage to raise my hand and question most of these lessons.
Thank you for covering this RFM, have questioned for years how on earth they could build a temple with so few people. Seeing the numbers it is even more ridiculous. The wars must have been Duals 😂
My current Sunday School teacher is a former bishop and stake president. He quotes sections of the Inspired Version of the Bible in classes. The IV is the Joseph Smith Translation as used by the RLDS/Community of Christ. This is in a LDS class lesson.
Typical faith-promoting argument: "How could a young man as unlearned and uneducated as Joseph Smith possibly have produced a book like the Book of Mormon?" Natural, common-sense response: "How could a young man as unlearned and uneducated as Joseph Smith NOT have produced a book like the Book of Mormon, if he was determined to produce a book? Have you actually read the thing? It's essentially a religious-themed comic-book story produced by an adolescent mind...something that is even more obvious when reading the first edition (prior to all the editing, polishing, formatting, etc. done in subsequent editions).
The Mormon scholar and GA BH Roberts concluded a century ago that Joseph Smith had the talent and the pre-existing source material to be able to write the book completely on his own. Ironically, when I was an LDS missionary half a century ago, the "Nibley challenge" was all the rage. Nibley's challenge was included in the church's missionary discussion book at that time titled "The Uniform System For Teaching Families." When presenting the subject of the BOM to investigators, we were to ask them to pray and ponder and ask themselves "Could any man have written this book?" Little did I know back then as a naive 19-21 year old missionary that BH Roberts had refuted the Nibley challenge a half century before then.
What is required to believe that the Book of Mormon is a genuine ancient record "translated" by Joseph Smith (by the "Gift and Power of God")? Not too much. Just the following: (1) The Book of Mormon; (2) About 10~15 books written by apologists, explaining how the improbable and impossible are actually probable and possible, based on stopgap supplemental narratives cobbled together out of motivated reasoning, wishful thinking and bald assertions; (3) A willingness to believe ("suspension of disbelief") that God, on at least one occasion, sent a glow-in-the-dark-resurrected-angel-man, named Moroni, to recruit an "unlearned" farm boy to translate an ancient record (from an unknown language) by way of either using a magic rock in a hat or a couple of crystals wired to a breastplate (instead of just having the angel deliver a perfectly prepared translation, published and bound in heaven, which probably would have been easier than hauling heavy gold plates back and forth between heaven and earth); and (5) an unwillingness to ever contemplate the overwhelmingly obvious possibility that the Book of Mormon is just a clumsy early 19th century hoax and not at all what the hoaxter-in-chief (Joseph Smith) claimed it to be.
To me the apologetics generally aren’t as problematic as the detachment from their implications. An informed reader of the BOM must grant certain allowances to accept the book as divine, but you can’t jump from such expansive thinking to the narrow dogma asserted by the authority of its proclaimed truthfulness. It just doesn’t work. Either the whole thing is a fabrication or the BOM’s truthfulness demands more expansive thought than the Church promotes. Either way the dogmatic McConkie Mormonism still prevalent today is in the wrong.
Supposedly, the main thing that Joseph Smith "restored" in the so-called "Restoration"®... was a correct understanding of everything important, a restoration of the doctrinal and scriptural clarity that had been lost in the "Great Apostasy". Now the "Restoration"®has been rebranded as the "Ongoing Restoration"®. The Ongoing Restoration mainly consists of deleting the clarity and authoritative understanding of doctrines and scriptures that were regarded as essential parts of the original "Restoration"®. So it's no wonder that most Mormons these days are showing signs of chronic cognitive-dissonance fatigue (CCDF).
@@randyjordan5521 no, they really don’t. They show that the text cannot be interpreted literally in all cases. That’s not to say the BOM is not bogus, but any individual flaw or group of flaws does not prove that assertion.
@@aBrewster29 Yes, those anachronisms do indeed prove that the BOM is a fraud. Joseph Smith had no idea that horses, wheeled conveyances, and smelted metal weaponry did not exist in the Americas until the Spaniards brought them in the 1500s. Smith was familiar with Bible stories and culture, so when he wrote his book about ancient Hebrews emigrating to America, he had his characters using the same animals and technology as Biblical cultures had. Those anachronisms are as damning to the BOM's authenticity as for instance, a book set in the 1500s which has people using automobiles and aircraft.
Also with the Adam and Eve story. They were the first humans but why is it not mentioned how the people of Nod came to be existing outside the garden…? Because it is all Myth. Only when people want to take it as literal history does it become problematic. JS made up a mythical story and promoted it as actual history. Problems solved.
Oh, the problem is far worse than that. According to LDS doctrine, Adam and Eve were the first humans, and they lived in western Missouri. A coupla thousand years went by, until God told Noah to build the ark. Every human on earth was drowned in the flood except for those aboard the ark. The ark came to rest in the Middle East, where human life began re-populating the earth. Now, here's the problem: modern day Book of Mormon apologists concede that "other people" were already living in the Americas when the "Book of Mormon people" left the Middle East and sailed there. Modern scientific research shows that Asian people entered the Americas circa 20k+- years ago. But according to LDS doctrine and Joseph Smith's own statements, there couldn't have been anyone living in the Americas when the BOM people arrived, because they had all drowned in the flood. That is why the BOM states that God sent the "Book of Mormon people" to "a promised land" "where man had never been." So, when modern day BOM apologists concede that "non-Book of Mormon people" were already in the Americas before the "Book of Mormon people" arrived, they are inadverdently admitting that the BOM and church doctrine are bogus.
Yes. One must always be willing to add outside people, items, words etc, not mentioned in the BoM in order to explain factual errors. Regardless of what else has been said by prophets.
Enos gives us another timeline issue. Enos is the son of Jacob, meaning he is in the second generation of Lehites. However, in v. 25, he says that at the end of his life, "I began to be old, and an hundred and seventy and nine years had passed away from the time that our father Lehi left Jerusalem." 179 years? Even if we allow that Jacob sired him late in life (say age 80-90), v. 1 tells us that Jacob was around long enough that Enos remembers that "he [Jacob] taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."
The great flood didn't seem to negatively affect the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, or any other Middle Eastern tribes like it supposedly devastated the ancient proto-Hebrews.
You know, with all the greed and polygamy going on with the nephites! The lamenites seemed to want to live naturally off the land! Who are the bad guys again😂
Over the last few months, as I have encountered Book of Mormon believers here on TH-cam, and I have mentioned its anachronisms such as unbelievable population numbers, one of those apologists has responded to them by asserting that ancient people had a bad habit of exaggerating numbers. So, when the Book of Ether says that two million Jaredites were killed circa 600 BC, or that the Lamanites killed 230,000 Nephites circa 400 AD, well those numbers are just exaggerations, you see. In that one apologist's mind, the problem couldn't be that Joseph Smith was writing a fictional book, and he had no idea that those numbers would appear unbelievable to future scholars of American antiquity. Maybe Helaman's two thousand stripling warriors were really just seven dwarves.
God, it is so obvious how blatantly the book of Mormon is wrong when you’re outside the bubble but when you’re inside the bubble, you don’t see things like this it’s just crazy how obvious it is with these numbers that anybody could tell that it isn’t true, but you don’t know that when you’re in the bubble. Thanks for sharing.
Gold (again) Joseph always needs gold because he was a treasure digger, and thus wants to clear his name from those digs. DNA doesn't go away they still find Neanderthal DNA after 40,000 years.
In my opinion these episodes miss the point of the Book of Mormon and ignore the spiritual depth. The one-sidedness of the so-called facts that are presented also follows a clear bias.
@@NoteworthyAnalysis Do you believe that these richer subjects are true despite an incorrect historical account? Or is the historical account (wars, temple, etc) also true but unexplained?
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I love this do over of Sunday School. All the things the church failed to mention now layed out before my eyes. Thank you!
You have strengthened my Faith. The book of Mormon wrote about you.
The Book of Mormon also wrote about horses, elephants, chariots, and smelted metal tools and weaponry. That's why it's a fake.
You are not keeping up with research. Horses are known to have been in the Americas before Columbus, Chariots are fully possible, they have found objects with wheels in archeology sites... Steel tools and weapons are known to have existed, and steel was known of as far back as 13th century BC a simple google search will show that. Other evidence to be found.... They still don't know how the pyramids were built in Egypt, but you want "proof" of things that happened in the new world? Laughable.... @@randyjordan5521
@@randyjordan5521 most of which has been proved to have existed during that time. You really should read an article or two sometime. Also there was no mention of elephants. So maybe you should read the BOM sometime. Maybe you should just read before you comment 🙃
@@brandonkayla There were small, prehistoric horses in the Americas, but no modern domesticated ones. The first domesticated horses were brought to the Americas by the Spaniards in the 1500s.
There were no chariots or any other wheeled conveyances in the Americas before Columbus, because native Americans had no draft animals to pull them. The largest domesticated animals in the Americas before Columbus was the dog.
There were no smelted metal tools or weaponry in the Americas during "Book of Mormon times." The only metal that Pre-Columbian Americans used was raw iron ore which they used as ornaments. I suggest that you read an internet article titled "How do you lose a steel mill?"
As for elephants, the Book of Mormon states this:
"And also all manner of cattle, ... and also many other kinds of animals which were useful for the food of man. And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms. (Ether 9:16-19)"
There were no modern domesticated elephants in the Americas before Columbus. The only animal even close to elephants were prehistoric mastodons, which went extinct during the last Ice Age, along with other species such as the saber cat, giant sloth, and the dire wolf. So it's kinda funny that you tell me that I should read the BOM before I comment, when you don't even know that it mentions elephants being "useful to man." I have studied these issues for 30 years.
You could learn all of this by surfing the internet for ten minutes, instead of showing your ignorance by writing what you wrote.
@@brandonkayla Ether Chapter 9 verse 19.
I have had a really good chuckle today listening to this podcast. Thank you for your work and humour., RFM. If I only had the courage to raise my hand and question most of these lessons.
Great Lesson Brother RFM! Are you still stopping by Wednesday for Home Teaching or is this the lesson? Make sure you are at 100 percent for the month
Thank you for covering this RFM, have questioned for years how on earth they could build a temple with so few people. Seeing the numbers it is even more ridiculous. The wars must have been Duals 😂
The actual population would have been zero as they all would have drowned approximately 5 minutes into their trip.
This made me laugh 😅😅😅 Well done!
Another great lesson, RFM! An apologetic response could be that the much larger assimilating population was written about on the lost 116 pages.
Great job
My current Sunday School teacher is a former bishop and stake president. He quotes sections of the Inspired Version of the Bible in classes. The IV is the Joseph Smith Translation as used by the RLDS/Community of Christ. This is in a LDS class lesson.
Your former "bishop" is an idiot.
Good for him
I recently bought several versions of the Inspired version. They sold them on the Book of Mormon Foundation and a few others.
@@Sirach144 Did ya enjoy that last chapter of Genesis where Joseph Smith prophesied of his own coming forth? Amazing how he was able to do that, huh.
@@randyjordan5521
Hahaha you’re funny. 😄
Thank you for the great lesson. We were spiritually fed today. Can I volunteer to say the closing prayer?
Typical faith-promoting argument: "How could a young man as unlearned and uneducated as Joseph Smith possibly have produced a book like the Book of Mormon?"
Natural, common-sense response: "How could a young man as unlearned and uneducated as Joseph Smith NOT have produced a book like the Book of Mormon, if he was determined to produce a book? Have you actually read the thing? It's essentially a religious-themed comic-book story produced by an adolescent mind...something that is even more obvious when reading the first edition (prior to all the editing, polishing, formatting, etc. done in subsequent editions).
The Mormon scholar and GA BH Roberts concluded a century ago that Joseph Smith had the talent and the pre-existing source material to be able to write the book completely on his own.
Ironically, when I was an LDS missionary half a century ago, the "Nibley challenge" was all the rage. Nibley's challenge was included in the church's missionary discussion book at that time titled "The Uniform System For Teaching Families." When presenting the subject of the BOM to investigators, we were to ask them to pray and ponder and ask themselves "Could any man have written this book?" Little did I know back then as a naive 19-21 year old missionary that BH Roberts had refuted the Nibley challenge a half century before then.
rfm sounds far more excited when reading the same data from the book than when he presented it minutes before which is weird
Interesting. I deeply appreciate your input and time doing these. Thanks for the refresher.
Nice lesson, Big R. Thanks for your effort; it was worth my time.
Such a refreshing analysis of the text. Appreciate your expertise!
Thank you RFM.
Brilliant as always.
Thanks RFM!
I finished the BOM for the last time in August. I did the god math that you’re doing. It didn’t add up well. But, miracles happen.
Just watched it.
They know it does not add up. It is so much harder to believe in made up apologetics than just go with the natural flow of things.
What is required to believe that the Book of Mormon is a genuine ancient record "translated" by Joseph Smith (by the "Gift and Power of God")? Not too much. Just the following: (1) The Book of Mormon; (2) About 10~15 books written by apologists, explaining how the improbable and impossible are actually probable and possible, based on stopgap supplemental narratives cobbled together out of motivated reasoning, wishful thinking and bald assertions; (3) A willingness to believe ("suspension of disbelief") that God, on at least one occasion, sent a glow-in-the-dark-resurrected-angel-man, named Moroni, to recruit an "unlearned" farm boy to translate an ancient record (from an unknown language) by way of either using a magic rock in a hat or a couple of crystals wired to a breastplate (instead of just having the angel deliver a perfectly prepared translation, published and bound in heaven, which probably would have been easier than hauling heavy gold plates back and forth between heaven and earth); and (5) an unwillingness to ever contemplate the overwhelmingly obvious possibility that the Book of Mormon is just a clumsy early 19th century hoax and not at all what the hoaxter-in-chief (Joseph Smith) claimed it to be.
The so called the most correct book the Book of Mormon has a huge problem 😮😮😅😅
I remember Sorenson's article. It wasn't compelling because it's not true to the BoM script.
To me the apologetics generally aren’t as problematic as the detachment from their implications. An informed reader of the BOM must grant certain allowances to accept the book as divine, but you can’t jump from such expansive thinking to the narrow dogma asserted by the authority of its proclaimed truthfulness. It just doesn’t work. Either the whole thing is a fabrication or the BOM’s truthfulness demands more expansive thought than the Church promotes. Either way the dogmatic McConkie Mormonism still prevalent today is in the wrong.
Supposedly, the main thing that Joseph Smith "restored" in the so-called "Restoration"®... was a correct understanding of everything important, a restoration of the doctrinal and scriptural clarity that had been lost in the "Great Apostasy". Now the "Restoration"®has been rebranded as the "Ongoing Restoration"®. The Ongoing Restoration mainly consists of deleting the clarity and authoritative understanding of doctrines and scriptures that were regarded as essential parts of the original "Restoration"®. So it's no wonder that most Mormons these days are showing signs of chronic cognitive-dissonance fatigue (CCDF).
The anachronisms in the BOM alone, such as horses, chariots, and metal weaponry, show that the book is bogus.
@@randyjordan5521 no, they really don’t. They show that the text cannot be interpreted literally in all cases. That’s not to say the BOM is not bogus, but any individual flaw or group of flaws does not prove that assertion.
@@aBrewster29 Yes, those anachronisms do indeed prove that the BOM is a fraud. Joseph Smith had no idea that horses, wheeled conveyances, and smelted metal weaponry did not exist in the Americas until the Spaniards brought them in the 1500s. Smith was familiar with Bible stories and culture, so when he wrote his book about ancient Hebrews emigrating to America, he had his characters using the same animals and technology as Biblical cultures had.
Those anachronisms are as damning to the BOM's authenticity as for instance, a book set in the 1500s which has people using automobiles and aircraft.
Also with the Adam and Eve story. They were the first humans but why is it not mentioned how the people of Nod came to be existing outside the garden…?
Because it is all Myth. Only when people want to take it as literal history does it become problematic.
JS made up a mythical story and promoted it as actual history. Problems solved.
Oh, the problem is far worse than that. According to LDS doctrine, Adam and Eve were the first humans, and they lived in western Missouri. A coupla thousand years went by, until God told Noah to build the ark. Every human on earth was drowned in the flood except for those aboard the ark. The ark came to rest in the Middle East, where human life began re-populating the earth.
Now, here's the problem: modern day Book of Mormon apologists concede that "other people" were already living in the Americas when the "Book of Mormon people" left the Middle East and sailed there. Modern scientific research shows that Asian people entered the Americas circa 20k+- years ago. But according to LDS doctrine and Joseph Smith's own statements, there couldn't have been anyone living in the Americas when the BOM people arrived, because they had all drowned in the flood. That is why the BOM states that God sent the "Book of Mormon people" to "a promised land" "where man had never been." So, when modern day BOM apologists concede that "non-Book of Mormon people" were already in the Americas before the "Book of Mormon people" arrived, they are inadverdently admitting that the BOM and church doctrine are bogus.
... They lie in wait to deceive....
I have seen scripture fulfilled in my day.
Yes. One must always be willing to add outside people, items, words etc, not mentioned in the BoM in order to explain factual errors. Regardless of what else has been said by prophets.
Cassandre Trail
Enos gives us another timeline issue. Enos is the son of Jacob, meaning he is in the second generation of Lehites. However, in v. 25, he says that at the end of his life, "I began to be old, and an hundred and seventy and nine years had passed away from the time that our father Lehi left Jerusalem." 179 years? Even if we allow that Jacob sired him late in life (say age 80-90), v. 1 tells us that Jacob was around long enough that Enos remembers that "he [Jacob] taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."
The population after the flood has the same problem.
The great flood didn't seem to negatively affect the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, or any other Middle Eastern tribes like it supposedly devastated the ancient proto-Hebrews.
@@randyjordan5521 oh now you’re going to tell me that the earth is older than 6000 years and round.
Florencio Curve
RFM, this is actually lesson 14. Lesson 13 is the Easter lesson. Just thought you should know. 😁
You know, with all the greed and polygamy going on with the nephites! The lamenites seemed to want to live naturally off the land! Who are the bad guys again😂
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark!
It's probably the herring.
Fahey Inlet
The beard looks great!!
That’s alot in breading
“Anthropologist Apologist” lol 🤣
Since it is all fiction, it doesn’t matter
Over the last few months, as I have encountered Book of Mormon believers here on TH-cam, and I have mentioned its anachronisms such as unbelievable population numbers, one of those apologists has responded to them by asserting that ancient people had a bad habit of exaggerating numbers. So, when the Book of Ether says that two million Jaredites were killed circa 600 BC, or that the Lamanites killed 230,000 Nephites circa 400 AD, well those numbers are just exaggerations, you see.
In that one apologist's mind, the problem couldn't be that Joseph Smith was writing a fictional book, and he had no idea that those numbers would appear unbelievable to future scholars of American antiquity.
Maybe Helaman's two thousand stripling warriors were really just seven dwarves.
God, it is so obvious how blatantly the book of Mormon is wrong when you’re outside the bubble but when you’re inside the bubble, you don’t see things like this it’s just crazy how obvious it is with these numbers that anybody could tell that it isn’t true, but you don’t know that when you’re in the bubble. Thanks for sharing.
LITERAL wolf in sheep's clothing.
Gold (again) Joseph always needs gold because he was a treasure digger, and thus wants to clear his name from those digs.
DNA doesn't go away they still find Neanderthal DNA after 40,000 years.
In my opinion these episodes miss the point of the Book of Mormon and ignore the spiritual depth.
The one-sidedness of the so-called facts that are presented also follows a clear bias.
Can you point out which of RFM’s comments are not factual? Also what are the spiritual depths you mention?
What does the point of the Book of Mormon (presumably to convince people of Jesus Christ) have to do with impossible population dynamics?
The chapters are so much richer than the subject it deals with, especially considering that this video was uploaded at Easter time.
@@NoteworthyAnalysis Do you believe that these richer subjects are true despite an incorrect historical account? Or is the historical account (wars, temple, etc) also true but unexplained?
RFM is an anti mormon
This is an antimormon podcast
Anti-Mormon=pro-truth.
hey guys get a life
Facts hurt
@@kenny-gee lies kill ... 6 million Jews dead by Nazis. Neo Nazis hate Mormons. .
You're here too, same applies, lol