Missing generations with the missing BOM population sounds like aliens😂 Thanks RFM for doing the work that this lazy learner never wanted to do! You always make my day! Glad you were able to see the sights in Europe. It's on my to do list.
On problem number 1, initially a few corrections to the math. Text indicates that Jacob and Joseph were twins (biblical typology, and description of the boat mutiny). So adjust to 171 years. Spackman and others determined that the Lehi Departure calendar is in uncorrected (not intercalated) lunar years. That adjustment takes it to 166 years. The assumption is that a person is giving records to the oldest son, which makes little sense if he is wanting to maintain a longer and longer period of continuity of the record from father to son. Jaredite practice was to pass kingship on to the youngest son, not the oldest. Problem 2. Accepting that Enos age is possible as explained one then is looking at 250 lunar years for the remaining 5 generations. Also the assumption of passing a record to a brother who has the same age as the guy who is ready to die makes no sense. So say add 20 years for both of the brother to brother transfers as within the realm of possibility (that is actually the case in my family). Could even theoretically be 50 plus years per transfer if it is a half-brother, but don't have to assume that, but still possible. So goes to 210 lunar years for 5 generations, which is then 42 lunar years per generation, or 40.7 solar years per generation. Which if one does not assume the oldest son, but look at the youngest son, especially when recognizing men can physiologically sire sons well into their 90's works out fine. As far as lifespan assumptions, a string of 17 Maya kings for which we have records indicates an average lifespan of 65 years, however, there were ages of 80, 82, 85, and 95. Anyway, the math works fine even within your assumption of 40 years under an oldest son assumption for the last 5 generations. If any care, one can see some of this discussed (the Enos issue is on page 153 in the book Chronology and Calendars of the Book of Mormon free to download at www.bmslr.org. Problem 2 is not really discussed directly as done here, but the lunar calendar adjustment is, and the year of Benjamin's birth (396 years in the Lehi Departure Calendar) so he is 83 lunar years at death. Warning: pretty much a book designed for BOM eggheads, so somewhat pedantic reading. Also because of the mathematical nature of the topic, I will respond to others reasonable comments with the pre-condition that they have actually read the book
My seminary teacher addressed the problem with the generations and vast populations in The Book of Mormon: He argued that every family was HUGE and that each couple begat DOZENS and DOZENS of children.... And how did he define a "generation"? He taught us that a generation was between ten and fifteen years. Concerning these BIG Nephite and Lamanite families, he once said that people were "more fertile in those days." See! That was easy! You can solve ANY problem that presents itself in Mormonism! Just argue that the ten- and fifteen-year-olds are reproducing in vast numbers!
I pondered this problem many years ago. I came to the conclusion that Jacob had to be at least 70 years old when he got married. This would not be a problem because of finding someone to marry him. There weren’t that many women available. The last 2 verses of Jacob gives me the picture of a guy who had a hard life, who probably had little sense of humor and wasn’t a lot of fun to go on a date with. I don’t think he attracted many women, and he seems to be the type of person who would reject most women as not measuring up to his standards. I can see him in his old age taking a young woman who had little chance of getting married. Enos says that he remembered his father teaching him, however I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Jacob died by the time Enos was 10 years old. Enos’ wife would have kept the plates in the closet until Enos as a man, 30-40 years old came to his senses and decided to get on God’s bandwagon. He was an inactive member for 20-30+ years and that’s why he had such a hard wrestle with God. I also doubt that Enos was married at the time of his conversion because no self respecting young Nephite woman would want to marry a Young Man dropout. We can’t just make assumptions about when people got married in these early years of settlement. Let’s put some real faces on these people and figure out the entire story.
If we analyze Roman lifespans, they come out to about 50 years old for emperors and about 40 years (adjusted for infant mortality) for everyone else. If those lifespans are comparable to the Nephites, how would this factor into the analysis RFM is making here? Although as Bro. Grover pointed out, it is theoretically possible to sire children at 95 years old, there are extremely few of these ancient people making it to that age. Sorry, stretching out the average reproduction age of these ancient people to 40-50 years old, just doesn't seem plausible to me.
this is very interesting,. Something to consider though didn't the bible claim Abraham lived until he was like around 170 ( give or take). So if that is true, maybe people lived longer back then?
The Seven Generations Between Jacob and Mosiah II Jacob (born circa 594 BCE, 2 Nephi 2:1, Got Plates about 544 BCE, Jacob 1:2, ~50 yrs old) (1) Enos (Jacob 7:27, about 421 BCE; 121 years) (2) Jarom (Jarom 1:1, about 399 BCE, 22years) (3) Omni (Got Plates at 276 years in the new world - (600-276)=324 BCE, 75 years)-, Omni 1:1-3) (4) Amaron (Omni 1:3) Amaron gives plates to Chemis (his brother - same generation, Omni 1:8) (5) Abinadom (Omni 1:10) (6) Amaleki (Omni 1:12) Amaleki delivered the plates (same generation) to King Benjamin (Omni 1:25) (7) King Mosiah (Mosiah 1:2, about 130 BCE) If the plates were passed on to the first born 7 times and the first born were all born at the same time, would that make each ‘dad’ 438/7=62 years old for the birth of their first born (of course, if some were earlier, others would have to be later)?
Once again we run into the ongoing problem with LDS apologists who (as in Bro. Grover's comments below) do not differentiate between what is possible ("so you are saying there's a chance"), and what is plausible (or likely). Yes, if you assume that generations are running at an average of 40.7 solar years, then it is "possible" that the data in the BOM fits with reality. BUT, it is highly unlikely, because generations do normally run closer to 25 years or so, especially in ancient times, where folks tended to pass away at a much earlier age. In ancient cultures we have reproduction beginning at about age 16 or so, with lots of infant mortality, mothers dying in childbirth, and then a host of disease, accidents and misfortunes that dramatically cuts average life spans. If Jaredite practice was to pass kingship to the youngest son (sorry I missed that reference somehow in Ether), what does that have to do with the Nephite practice, since the Nephites run into the Jaredite record hundreds of years after their civilization is already in motion? Here again, do we assume the more common pattern of male primogeniture, or the much less pattern of youngest son primogeniture? And as I am sure you know, in Mayan culture, the pattern was usually male primogeniture (inheritance of the kingship to the eldest son). "If you add 20 years for brother- to-brother transfers,' this sounds like an assumption, unjustified by any actual evidence in the text, but one necessary to stretch out a longer timeline to make Bro. Grover's timeline seem plausible. The argumentation always seems to be: 'let's assume some things in our favor, on the margins, and if you agree with me that these things are possible, then you must somehow agree with me that my argument is plausible." No, actual reality works the other way around: the more assumptions you start with that are on the margins of possibility, with each step you take in this direction, the LESS plausible your point of view becomes.
The math ain't mathin! We look for logic and reason in a world of fantasy and magic created by Joseph Smith and subsequent leaders. Next thing you know, we leave the lying church. In the name of physics, Amen.
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Missing generations with the missing BOM population sounds like aliens😂 Thanks RFM for doing the work that this lazy learner never wanted to do! You always make my day! Glad you were able to see the sights in Europe. It's on my to do list.
This was fascinating! Great job, RFM!
Love and positivity will win the day!
Took notes and I rewriting my B of M with the corrections.
438 years divided by 7 generations is 62.5 years on average per generation
On problem number 1, initially a few corrections to the math. Text indicates that Jacob and Joseph were twins (biblical typology, and description of the boat mutiny). So adjust to 171 years. Spackman and others determined that the Lehi Departure calendar is in uncorrected (not intercalated) lunar years. That adjustment takes it to 166 years. The assumption is that a person is giving records to the oldest son, which makes little sense if he is wanting to maintain a longer and longer period of continuity of the record from father to son. Jaredite practice was to pass kingship on to the youngest son, not the oldest. Problem 2. Accepting that Enos age is possible as explained one then is looking at 250 lunar years for the remaining 5 generations. Also the assumption of passing a record to a brother who has the same age as the guy who is ready to die makes no sense. So say add 20 years for both of the brother to brother transfers as within the realm of possibility (that is actually the case in my family). Could even theoretically be 50 plus years per transfer if it is a half-brother, but don't have to assume that, but still possible. So goes to 210 lunar years for 5 generations, which is then 42 lunar years per generation, or 40.7 solar years per generation. Which if one does not assume the oldest son, but look at the youngest son, especially when recognizing men can physiologically sire sons well into their 90's works out fine. As far as lifespan assumptions, a string of 17 Maya kings for which we have records indicates an average lifespan of 65 years, however, there were ages of 80, 82, 85, and 95. Anyway, the math works fine even within your assumption of 40 years under an oldest son assumption for the last 5 generations. If any care, one can see some of this discussed (the Enos issue is on page 153 in the book Chronology and Calendars of the Book of Mormon free to download at www.bmslr.org. Problem 2 is not really discussed directly as done here, but the lunar calendar adjustment is, and the year of Benjamin's birth (396 years in the Lehi Departure Calendar) so he is 83 lunar years at death. Warning: pretty much a book designed for BOM eggheads, so somewhat pedantic reading. Also because of the mathematical nature of the topic, I will respond to others reasonable comments with the pre-condition that they have actually read the book
My seminary teacher addressed the problem with the generations and vast populations in The Book of Mormon: He argued that every family was HUGE and that each couple begat DOZENS and DOZENS of children.... And how did he define a "generation"? He taught us that a generation was between ten and fifteen years. Concerning these BIG Nephite and Lamanite families, he once said that people were "more fertile in those days."
See! That was easy! You can solve ANY problem that presents itself in Mormonism! Just argue that the ten- and fifteen-year-olds are reproducing in vast numbers!
I pondered this problem many years ago. I came to the conclusion that Jacob had to be at least 70 years old when he got married. This would not be a problem because of finding someone to marry him. There weren’t that many women available. The last 2 verses of Jacob gives me the picture of a guy who had a hard life, who probably had little sense of humor and wasn’t a lot of fun to go on a date with. I don’t think he attracted many women, and he seems to be the type of person who would reject most women as not measuring up to his standards. I can see him in his old age taking a young woman who had little chance of getting married. Enos says that he remembered his father teaching him, however I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Jacob died by the time Enos was 10 years old. Enos’ wife would have kept the plates in the closet until Enos as a man, 30-40 years old came to his senses and decided to get on God’s bandwagon. He was an inactive member for 20-30+ years and that’s why he had such a hard wrestle with God. I also doubt that Enos was married at the time of his conversion because no self respecting young Nephite woman would want to marry a Young Man dropout. We can’t just make assumptions about when people got married in these early years of settlement. Let’s put some real faces on these people and figure out the entire story.
Took me a minute to understand your comment as satire. Nice job.
I missed live chat dammit!! Well hello everyone!
If we analyze Roman lifespans, they come out to about 50 years old for emperors and about 40 years (adjusted for infant mortality) for everyone else. If those lifespans are comparable to the Nephites, how would this factor into the analysis RFM is making here? Although as Bro. Grover pointed out, it is theoretically possible to sire children at 95 years old, there are extremely few of these ancient people making it to that age. Sorry, stretching out the average reproduction age of these ancient people to 40-50 years old, just doesn't seem plausible to me.
146 Hudson Squares
841 Bashirian Glens
Wellington Mews
this is very interesting,. Something to consider though didn't the bible claim Abraham lived until he was like around 170 ( give or take). So if that is true, maybe people lived longer back then?
Jacobs Bypass
770 Desmond Roads
Ewell Port
The Seven Generations Between Jacob and Mosiah II
Jacob (born circa 594 BCE, 2 Nephi 2:1, Got Plates about 544 BCE, Jacob 1:2, ~50 yrs old)
(1) Enos (Jacob 7:27, about 421 BCE; 121 years)
(2) Jarom (Jarom 1:1, about 399 BCE, 22years)
(3) Omni (Got Plates at 276 years in the new world - (600-276)=324 BCE, 75 years)-, Omni 1:1-3)
(4) Amaron (Omni 1:3)
Amaron gives plates to Chemis (his brother - same generation, Omni 1:8)
(5) Abinadom (Omni 1:10)
(6) Amaleki (Omni 1:12)
Amaleki delivered the plates (same generation) to King Benjamin (Omni 1:25)
(7) King Mosiah (Mosiah 1:2, about 130 BCE)
If the plates were passed on to the first born 7 times and the first born were all born at the same time, would that make each ‘dad’ 438/7=62 years old for the birth of their first born (of course, if some were earlier, others would have to be later)?
6703 Everett Cliff
716 Gulgowski Roads
Once again we run into the ongoing problem with LDS apologists who (as in Bro. Grover's comments below) do not differentiate between what is possible ("so you are saying there's a chance"), and what is plausible (or likely). Yes, if you assume that generations are running at an average of 40.7 solar years, then it is "possible" that the data in the BOM fits with reality. BUT, it is highly unlikely, because generations do normally run closer to 25 years or so, especially in ancient times, where folks tended to pass away at a much earlier age. In ancient cultures we have reproduction beginning at about age 16 or so, with lots of infant mortality, mothers dying in childbirth, and then a host of disease, accidents and misfortunes that dramatically cuts average life spans. If Jaredite practice was to pass kingship to the youngest son (sorry I missed that reference somehow in Ether), what does that have to do with the Nephite practice, since the Nephites run into the Jaredite record hundreds of years after their civilization is already in motion? Here again, do we assume the more common pattern of male primogeniture, or the much less pattern of youngest son primogeniture? And as I am sure you know, in Mayan culture, the pattern was usually male primogeniture (inheritance of the kingship to the eldest son). "If you add 20 years for brother- to-brother transfers,' this sounds like an assumption, unjustified by any actual evidence in the text, but one necessary to stretch out a longer timeline to make Bro. Grover's timeline seem plausible. The argumentation always seems to be: 'let's assume some things in our favor, on the margins, and if you agree with me that these things are possible, then you must somehow agree with me that my argument is plausible." No, actual reality works the other way around: the more assumptions you start with that are on the margins of possibility, with each step you take in this direction, the LESS plausible your point of view becomes.
Among other things.
1354 Bednar Stream
Labadie Manor
Or the population written of in BoM.
The math ain't mathin!
We look for logic and reason in a world of fantasy and magic created by Joseph Smith and subsequent leaders. Next thing you know, we leave the lying church.
In the name of physics, Amen.
Okay apologetics,... go to work! (Im sure you can find something to counter this)!
Bro. Grover is already going to work on it in the comment above.