UPDATE |||||| ------------------------------------------------------- Ineos contacted me to clarify the fuel figures I estimated "You flagged a range of figures based on what you saw on the dash while riding in the vehicle. We just wanted to note that this fuel range isn’t necessarily what the final specification will be. The prototype is running BETA software at this point and as a result, the sensors aren’t delivering the full range on the screen as seen." -------------------------------------------------------- In my Ineos prototype review, I will take a more realistic approach to see if the Grenadier could be my Long Range 4wd Touring vehicle in the harsh Australian Outback and beyond. Let me know what you think in the comments below.
Full disclosure, I have a deposit down. IMHO the Grenadier has to be looked at when the production vehicle is made. For example, the lower swing arms have already been address and ineos felt they were to low. Magna is correcting the issue. The battery box as pointed out by another comment is going to be in a waterproof box. Old man Emu is already working on a lift. You are able to put 35 with little to no modifications. Because they are using tractor axels the weight of wheel will be supported. Ineos has announced they are retooling the steering which should tuck the damper up. Ineos has announce you will be able to get underbody protection that is thicker than the 4mm they use now. Ineos is talking about providing a drawer system that makes everything flat when you put down the rear seats. Now let's discuss how it differs from Rubicon, a USA favorite. Ineos is not a rock crawler and that is where the Jeep excel. But a Jeep can't tow 7700lbs. Jeep can't have 700lbs strap to the roof. You can modify the hell out of a Jeep but we know third party manufactures have already committed to making parts. Ineos has stated many will get the protype versions to design parts. We have to wait for final version before we can make a true assessment.
Can only judge the car by what I see so far, Credit to Ineos and displaying a prototyp hopefully they make use of the opportunity this presents and make required changes. I also would not take a Jeep as a tourer but in the US many do. Off road capability of the Ineos is well below a jeep at present. Looking forward to see final version of Ineos
Well done I will want a 2" lift and 35 tyres in a couple of weeks we get to do the final order. The wife said it has to be mushroom or forget it. I think I can live with that.
1st review I've seen that pointed out that Ineos are making service manuals publicly available. Since this is important to not just the buyers, but Right-to-Repair in general (so many manufacturers make it near impossible to get this information) - I think this really should be highlighted!
Hats off to Ineos, they are bringing prototype/pre-production cars out to the public. Of course there are going to be bits and pieces that aren't right and things that need to be fixed. They are bringing the 'Old school' 4x4 kicking and screaming into the 21st century.....it's so exciting!🤓
It's s total piece of engineering overkill in the wrong place and really really sorry to say but it will not sell.. Having built trucks for the Dakar Rally and other off highway vehicles this just not going to work.. Too many issues, suspension is the most important factor and they have failed completely unless you want and old man's old school Defender type vehicle, then buy a Defender its way better..
Mate, best review out there so far. Real perspective and consideration for Australian use. Will be interesting to see how popular the vehicle will be here.
Totally agree. Great that it 4x4 exists, for obvious competition reasons. As pointed out the low hanging bits and pieces under are disappointing. The no speedo in front strange. And the under seat fuses a very strange decision. But again, great to have it coming along.
Great review Stefan! I found the link to it it on AULRO (Aus Land Rover forum)! That being said, I am an Ineos "paid up deposit/ early hand raiser " and spent several hours at the Scenic Rim (Qld) drive day. A couple of things: At the outset, Ineos stated that the design intent was for a reliable "work horse", not a go-anywhere extreme off-roader . I quizzed the Ineos blokes on this intently. Fuel capacity: I gleaned from the reports on the above mentioned LR website, and comments on the Qld drive day, that Rick Bates was the driver who ferried vehicle from Sth Aus. to SE Qld over a couple of days. From his fuel stops wrt distance on a 90L tank, he got around 9.x L/100km admitting he 'pushed it along' the whole way ! :-) A standard 800-900km range for what's intended is reasonable. In a previous life, a 100L fuel bladder was a very economical way to carry diesel fuel for range extension as/when required Underbody clearance: The Ineos people said that the standard vehicle can take a 50mm lift as is without worrying about drive angles/ brake lines etc. That would take the clearance to a tad over 300mm under the diff on the proposed standard 17" wheels/tyre combination ! Rear Door: it's rated for 110kg minimum, as are all other 4 doors with the track inserts A 35" tyre is heavy and not needed for most people. I personally would much prefer to drive to the conditions...at my age, lifting a 32" tyre/rim combination will be fine thanks! Which is why also I'll probably opt for the alloy rather than steel wheels. Given that I have a retirement list a mile long of jobs for SWMBO, now that I've found your channel I must spend more time watching it...all in the name of critical research you understand!! Good luck!
Thanks for the review. It is good to hear the perspective of someone who is assessing it against harder 4wd scenarios. As you mentioned, most of the reviews I have seen appear to give their assessments against what we might call 'general' on and off-road use, likely what the majority of users will have in mind, and no doubt the major target of Ineos. This makes sense. However, I see no harm in assessing whether or not it will be a suitable vehicle for those that do harder, long-distance, remote travel, where we need more clearance, more range, better articulation, and components designed to both weeks of corrugations or days of rock/mud terrain. After we lost the likes of the coil sprung Toyotas and Patrols, we have all been wanting something new that gives us live-axles, coils and disk brakes all-round, reasonable engine power/torque, essentially a base platform that the Grenadier seems to possess. I applaud Ineos for their efforts in this so far. But I too remain hopeful that there is some provision for the other things we require for our passions, either supplied at source or aftermarket, to include the extra fuel capacity, suspension lift/performance improvements and legally/practically allow larger tyres. We shall see what comes out in the production versions. Thanks again.
Fantastic review. I hope Ineos can manage to take your recommendations on board. I understand that it's also a game of compromises but when you're talking of replacing the legendary defender, things like approach, departure, break-over angles, and payload count as irreducible minimums.
@@AlloffroadAu One of the points Ineos do make about the interior is that it can be hosed out.. That suggests to me that they've already encased the electrics in the final build.. as you say, time will tell.
As a current L316 Defender owner I can say that your observations are spot on. If these fundimental issues such as suspension travel limitations, wheel size options, fuel capacity and low hanging components haven't been dealt by now they are set to stay, meaning best I hold on to my 'old Defender...
Thank you for your honesty!we need more people like you to go past the hype and tell us the nitty gritty. I hope Ineos will work out all the issues! It already has great looks, and I hope it will be capable for what it's designed for and be reliable!
INEOS's first problem is it needs to sell and make money; 35" tyres and better angles will makes it too expensive to get through type approval and noise limits. Huge standard fuel capacity will make it too heavy and upset the fuel consumption conformity. INEOS have already announced co-operation with the aftermarket crowd, so I would be hopeful for long term development. INEOS's announcements on third party support are almost diametrically opposite to the statements of JLR and their design supremo, who want to chase the aftermarket away from current products. An interesting review; it is always good to hear another measured opinion. I did the 2B tour in the UK in August 2021 and thought it was smoother, quieter, more powerful and tighter turning than my existing elderly LR. I've reserved one, but then I'm looking for a modern alternative to a 1989 LR110 CSW, updated with a 200Tdi, in the green UK!
Jeep's success is partly due to aftermarket add-ons. People love to customize their vehicles. The mod community makes the vehicle vibrant. It would be a big mistake not to engage the aftermarket suppliers.
You mention the JLR design supremo. He appears to be someone who sneers at traditional Defender owners (like me) and has done more than any other individual to alienate their traditional customer base. A member of the urban elite / know-it-alls.
@@JeremyEdwards996 Yes and he has designed a range of overly complicated, unreliable vehicles which have caused great reputational damage and cost at least 100,000 lost sales p.a. according to their CEO Thierry Bolloré. Nice work.
Totally agree on need for 33 inch tyres minimum. You can tell that just by looking at the vehicle. I reckon waiting for the longer wheel base will give room underneath for an added fuel tank and some other changes.
Fuel capacity could be the deal breaker. Most other aspects are either great or can be worked around. There really doesn't seem to be space for an aux fuel tank, but happy to be proved wrong. Australia definitely needs more fuel capacity.
Definitely a great review and an actual good look at things that matter to offroaders. I think what I have learned as a Land Rover owner is that British companies build offroaders built for terrain they see, but other parts of the world (US here) have a much different view, and we also have these things called a Rubicon and a Sasquatch. This is only a first look and no firsthand driving on more difficult terrain, so I will reserve last judgement for that review. I think another limiting factor will be the extent to which the aftermarket gets involved. It's a cool, new toy for sure, but it's a one-off built by not-a-car-company so I think some will sit on the sidelines for a bit to see how it evolves.
Definitely agree, one of the main pitfalls of British Industry has been failing to design stuff for world wide use, for some things at some points in time you could get away with it but not anymore.
Ineos is on a right path... they will improve very quickly because with out any prior experience they build something like this think of MK 2... I am a huge fan of companies who go against the typical style.
Refreshing to hear a review from an experienced 4x4 person. I think the effort Ineos puts into allowing the public to road test in a public forum shows they are willing to listen and are keen to develop the vehicle before production commences. Keep up the good work !
Great review! The best I’ve seen, thank you. I agree with the points you’ve mentioned. I went to an experience center in Berrima where they took us for a drive around a lap of gnarly bush tracks and we got to poke around the vehicle and ask questions. ✅The ride was very good. They have spent a lot of money sorting out the suspension and it shows. Very well damped and no shudder or wobble. The cabin was a pre production version so all interior plastics were 3d printed so it felt nasty but you got the concept. ✅Engine was the diesel and it felt strong and torquey. ✅You could see the build quality is going to be really good in the production model. They want people to keep their Grenadier for a long time. I was impressed by the ride quality but found some major disappointments elsewhere: ❌Driver visibility was poor. They have copied the old defender roof line which pushes it down very low at the front and makes for a narrow windscreen which also makes the side windows quite low so your head is up inside the roof. The B pillar is quite far forward so your eye line is blocked by the window frame of the door, especially when looking to merge lanes (say, on a road with traffic). ❌The door sill is quite far from the seat so getting in and out in one smooth move is difficult, even with my long legs. The low roof line and low top of the door frame also made access difficult. ❌Not much leg room. I can stretch out in the drivers seat in my Discovery but not in the Grenadier. They said I could move my seat back, which was true but the footwell is very shallow so if I want more leg room the rear passengers lose it. Cabin felt quite cosy, albeit not as bad as the old Defender, but no where as spacious or comfy as my Discovery. ❌Rear seats don’t fold flat and not very comfy. ❌Rear cargo floor was quite high with no apparent reason (no third seating row folded away in there). ❌Expensive. Starting at AuD $85k with no options this thing is a good $20k more than a specced up Japanese work Ute. Any vehicle sold on Oz over $70k attracts a Luxury Car Tax, plus other dealer and stamp duty, meaning this thing will easily be $110k drive away. I think they’ve succeeded in making a strong and well sorted vehicle from scratch that will take on rugged terrain with ease and will hopefully be a good tough truck to fill the niche in the market where a G-Wagon is too fancy and a Toyota 70 Series is too bumpy. But, in short, it’s not for me. I prefer my Discovery as a great all rounder.
thanks, not so sure if they really sorted out suspension, the front looks like a near copy of the Jeep Wrangler suspension which is good but very finicky. If you google Jeep dead wobble you find a plethora of posts and I personally had it in my Jeep which is very scary. The Jeep suspension is easily upset and just a small misalignment and bushed can cause this and it would be hard to fix or diagnose in the bush. There is a recent Ineos promotional video out which shows a few seconds of horrible dead wobble in the suspension.
Thanks for your perspective on the Grenadier. From what I've seen of it, only on videos thus far, it appears your three "complaints" are right on the money. I've been driving 4-WD's since 1964. I presently drive a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon I've had since new. For 30 years, 1964-1993, I drove Series Land Rovers. I'm far more a "Defender" kind of guy than a Range Rover type of person. The Grenadier may be just my ticket if your points get built into the production vehicle! Thank you very much! Andy McKane, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii, USA.
Thanks for pointing out some the sticky points - like the battery and fuses under the seat. Once I saw that , thats exactly what I thought about fording water. The steering dampener is also a concern. The idea for skid plates is to have all the sensitive part be covered by the plates.
In the beginning I was skeptical about "I will tell you things that others do not" and almost wanted to skip the video, but author quickly passed to interesting technical details and design drawbacks, which I never heard of before in other videos about grenadier. Than you!
Love your review. It is very comprehensive, love the side by side spec comparison table at the beginning. I also like how breakdown your discussion in different sections and more importantly, the low hanging parts underneath the vehicle that will affect the offroad ability. I live in U.S. and will link this video to my favorite offloading/truck review channel trying that they copy some of your review approach techniques. Never thought such big fuel tanks were needed. 260L or 68 gals will have a range somewhere about 700-900 miles. Definetly you do more remote offloading in Australia. According some reviewers in the USA, we will not have the diesel engine option.
Excellent review (and helpful comments). Hopefully the second row seats can be removed completely and battery covered. My LC 100’s with seats removed are comfortable to sleep in, and will haul an American sized refrigerator (68” tall) just fine. Manufacturers aiming for the “luxury” market have killed the versatile work/overland vehicles in the USA (no, I do not want a ‘ute’ or pickup). USA does not even get the LC300, just the $100k+ Lexus version. The Grenadier is a move in the right direction, thank you for pointing out the +/- ‘s!
Has to be one of the most comprehensive reviews of the vehicle. The complexity of the suspension lift with drive shafts and short linkages is a pretty serious deal breaker in my opinion... the rear leg room is also a bit of a let down. Fantastic review mate, well done!
Thanks for a great review. I felt it was an honest and realistic itemisation of the potential weak points. I have experienced the demonstration day in the Ineos and have followed their progress since their inception. I have been looking for the ideal replacement for my Land Rover Discovery 4 for some time and was hoping the Ineos would be the one. Some of the short comings are of concern given the stated high objectives of the Ineos Project. I am not so worried about the fuel capacity as the Discovery has great fuel efficiency and I expect the Ineos to be similar. A couple of extra Jerry cans will be sufficient. My greater concern is the lack of ground clearance and the general vulnerability of some of the under body components. Also the centre console encroachment into the rear seating area as well as the way the rear seats do not lay down flat is a big problem. Particularly when a better design approach could have been adopted. The vulnerability of the under seat battery and electronics location to water ingress is less than ideal. These are all items that affect confidence in the product I regret to say
I agree with your comments, but a disco 3 performs better than a D4. If you want a car that is “better” than a D4, the D5 is much better. If you want off road, this is much better “on paper” than the D4. Otherwise buy a 2.4tdci 110. All off road cars are a compromise. A canter 4x4 crew cab on super singles will out perform most off road, but slow on road. Nothing is perfect
Haven't made my mind up as to whether I would buy one yet, but it does appear Ineos have got a lot of things right with the Grenadier, and full credit to them, especially given this is their first go at building a vehicle of any description, let alone a worthy successor to one of the most iconic 4WDs the world has seen.... The 'open source' style approach Ineos is taking with the vehicle is also promising, and I believe they are working with the aftermarket companies to develop accessories....though as Stefan and others have noted, increasing the fuel capacity appears to be the biggest challenge at this point.... I will definitely continue following the development of this vehicle, and be sure to check it out in the metal once it goes on sale....
Seems like a very objective & fair first analysis, given that you can’t get a vehicle for review. Your Australian touring perspective is spot on. Thank you and well done. 👍🇦🇺
Max Hornibrook Ineos Grenadier is appealing to those who will go off-road when they wish and feel confident, knowing the vehicle and its limits. They are not trying to break it but enjoy the trip or do the job at hand and return safely. Then take a trailer full of sheep to the market because that is what it is designed for, a perfect on/off-road truck that will do the job and pull a load as it is built to do. I think that overlanders have built specialist vehicles and take that vehicle on off offroad trips, that may be not the vehicle to pull the boat wherever or trips to the dump with a trailer load or a trip to the cape with the fam. The Grenadier is the strong allrounder that I have been waiting for, a sensible, sturdy workhorse with enough comfort, grunt and style made simply.
that may be true for the UK or SA but not for Australia or many other countries like the US we have many cars available here who will do exactly the same and do some things better.
Great review and about time we got something that relates to rubber on the road as to what may or may not cause issues, I think it is about time Ineos got some utube creators to take this thing for a test drive
A Fair and honest review - the fuel range is a big concern - i am not sure where the battery and electronics will be housed on the commercial version as it seems to have a completely flat floor - The challenge Grenadier had was the same one Landrover ( Defender ) had - it has to build a vehicle which will appeal to the masses and meet various safety standards which is understandable -including all the constraints they had to meet - imagine an aircraft designed by a committee !
I like the points you bring up. Also, as you say, it depends on use and location. Where I run, in the deserts of Utah, Nevada, and Arizona, I'm not worried as much about water crossings (water? ha!) as I am about range - that's a big deal. Good to see the potential negatives as well as the positives.
Das ist tatsächlich das erste und einzige ehrliche Video das ich zu dem Fahrzeug sehe und es spiegelt viele meiner eigenen Fragen wieder. Danke Dir dafür. Ich bin sehr gespannt was am Ende bei dem Fahrzeug wirklich raus kommt. Gruß
Wow best vid yet. Thanks for that. I feel exactly the same- some great things and potential, but some issues, namely: 1. Ground clearance- I can only judge based on vids and what I’ve seen but it doesn’t seem great for what it is. Which means mods necessary. Then question is- how easy will that be? Will it be a lego vehicle like a Jeep? Thanks for insight into underside- again that has some worries for me with lifting it and fitting larger tires. Right now all of these are questions and concerns and hopefully Ineos will address them positively, but the fact that noone I have seen but you (including Ineos) so far is even mentioning this is annoying. I’m not as concerned about the control arm mounts as much though, as they can be armored up with slippery skid plates pretty easily. 2. Articulation- like ground clearance I am stuck with what I can see in vids, and like you say most of the vids are on pretty mellow tracks that dont test articulation much. But what I’ve seen seems less than what I was expecting for how it is built. Not sure why but your comments on the suspension parts and lengths may be the issues. Can this be fixed? Remains to be seen. 3. Things I already hate- A. The damn back seat that doesn’t fold flat. Are you f’ing kidding me? That has to be the height of stupidity. And I dont want to hear from Ineos that I can buy the commercial variant without a back seat- maybe, just maybe I want a back seat sometimes and other times full, flat cargo space for longer items. Just maybe. At least now I know why. You are the first I have seen to mention that battery and fuse box is under the rear seat. I didnt know that. Man I hate that if that is what is causing rear seats not to fold flat and for same reason you mention- if they’re there they better be in a waterproof box. B. The instrument cluster. Well it is a cluster/ cluster F that is. Why is nothing in front of the driver? Looking to the center to see basic info requires the driver to take his eyes off of what is in front. Wtf are they thinking? And then I agree- one screen with everything. That is risky. They say this is purpose built- where is the built in redundancy or at least some mechanical gauges? Also not having a harddrive GPS is dumb- everyone has smart phones these days- well yeah but many apps only work with cell service and a lot of places I and probably a lot of others go dont have it. Sure some of my outdoor apps allow me to download a certain number of grids of the maps to store on the hard drive that doesnt require cell service, but I still like redundancy of having it on in veh as well. SUMMARY - a LOT to like- too much to list to be honest. But the above could be issues. My biggest worry though- long term viability of it. Seems like their business plan is based around building a veh primarily for NGOs and touring companies in the boonies and a market that I dont think exists much anymore for vehicles like this or the old Defender (farmers). The problem with this is I dont think those segments, including farmers if they do still exist as a market of significance, are going to buy enough of these alone to keep it afloat. All of these industries might be great at buying it when it comes out, but they don’t buy a lot of vehicles on the regular. They keep em running and keep em for 20 years. After the first couple to few years of sales because of its newness, will these markets alone be enough to sustain it as a business entity? Until now the Grenadier has been an ego project for Mr. Radcliff; if it can’t sustain itself financially in the long term will he continue to prop it up with profits from other parts of Ineos? I think to be successful Ineos has to sell these in quantity to civis who don’t need everything they offer all the time, or for some people ever. And they have to sell well in the US. Here they will be competing against the long entrenched Jeep, and now the Bronco, as well as Toyota. Bronco has a 35s and lifted package, Jeep has introduced same, and all of them are easy to mod even if you don’t get it from the factory. Sorry but offering the Grenadier in the US with only 31 in tires and difficulty modifying will be a death sentence for sales here. And I suspect places like Australia too from the vids I watch. So that is my biggest concern for the Grenadier, can it sustain sales long enough to support itself financially and be a viable, ongoing entity? Time will tell, but I feel a bit like they need to bring in some non European marketers to help them with this. It’s great to have the concept of built on purpose and all, but they’re going to have to sell them to a broad market to make it and be more than just some billionaire’s pet ego project of the history books. Look forward to more of your vids on it.
This sounds like a really fair review, in regards to your battery point, I think that the battery/electrical components would be a good fit above the rear wheel arches, then any jacks, wrenches, etc can go under the rear seats. I was also surprised that they said it does not have sway bar disconnects, the test drive I went on was extremely smooth at high speeds but when the serious bumps came it was definitely bumpy! The suspension support parts I think would get caught on rocks like you mentioned however looking and the wrangler and bronco's they too have the same problem.
Another concern I have which I talked to the Ineos guys on the tour was about the plastic BMW cooling parts which is ridiculous have on an off roading driving around in Australia.
this is the kind of analysis you need when buying something that doesn't exist that you can't look at or drive. Very well done video. Carwow did talk about how even the new defender has better angles.. The look underneath is invaluable I agree you will be on the rocks a lot with stock tires..
This was an excellent review. You covered exactly some of the questions I had about the undercarriage. All those low-hanging parts and the questions you ask about the drive train implications of lifting 2"-3" to put 35s on are perfect. A poor turning radius is a killer. I am interested in hearing the answers to your questions. For the kind of overlanding I do here in the US, the entrance/departure angle question is important but of greatest value to me is the fuel tank capacity. The current 90L (~23 US Gallons) could stand improvement. Finally, the battery/fuse placement is a real problem because the inability to lay the seats flat removes the ability to efficiently pack the rear cargo area (which is already small). When I go overlanding, I need all the space I can get in the cargo area and strange angles create a lot of problems when packing up. Thanks for this very good review. Subscribed.
Thing is I dont think they designed it for an overlander / off road niche specialist ...its a utility truck for a farmer with as good an off road capability as 98% of the market needs .. That extra 2% that you need could have added another 10% cost to the truck .... If you want something truly specialist then there are 1000s of defenders and land cruisers to modify !
I don't agree, a Jeep Rubicon for example is way better off-road from a factory than an Ineos. While I agree that my requirements are a little higher, the thing is I can modify an old Defender, 200 Series, 70 Series, 100 Series, Patrol without too much effort to meet my requirements and i would think that should be possible on a vehicle purposely build as a 4wd. A lot of the advertising and testing shows it in Afrika, Deserts etc so a tourer must sure have been on their radar. I think the Ineos has limited itself a bit but we shall see how the final version ends up, especially the dual cab. I dare to say that with the current tyre size you will have quite a few issues in Australia without doing any extreme stuff. Ineos will never be my rock crawler
@@AlloffroadAu I dont disagree with any of the design elements you highlight that are less than ideal . I was quite shocked when they released the video some time go showing chassis development and saw those low hanging trailing arm mounts . The rear always seemed a bit low slung to me too. Im in the UK and have run a 300dti 90 for offroading - 35" tyres, winch , roll cage ...all that stuff now for 18 odd years (not the outback but some dedicated sites i go to push the capabilities of driver and truck to the limits) I can see from the elements you again highlight the Grenadier would not be ideal for my purposes either. Given Im no super brain on these matters Im sure the genius pool at INEOS must have been aware of these issues given all the experience and input from the off road community they have had . This is what makes me think they have just made a commercial decision to produce the best utility vehicle they can to the point that satisfies 98% of the market and basically said the other 2% is up to you ! . Farmers will probably love it , utility companies will probably love it ..maybe even the military on a bare bones version. Your weekend outdoors lifestyle action guy will love it along with those that just live in remote (ish) by UK standards areas. As it is the cost of the Grenadier is not exactly utility which is maybe why land rover realised themselves they just couldn't develop their classic defender anymore given the markets they now want to push their current range into. I think Ineos just baulked at doing the last 2 % because it would not be commercially viable for them given the extra costs , I know from my truck the large sums of money you can chuck at them for incrementally small gains . All that said the video was spot on ..really enjoyed it 👍
Ineos have made a fantastic job with the Grenadier . There has to be a balance between off road and road and having used Landrover for over 40 years as a off road work vehicle all I have ever needed to do is put gun tractor wheels on the vehicle with NATO Military tyres . This solves all ground clearing problems and very rare to have to go into four drive and that is towing heavy vehicles out of the bottom of a quarry when digging in. But this gives you a ten foot running height and not very good traction on the road , sliding around especially when braking. My message to Landrover is look what happens when you fill your management structure and design team with very young adults 🧑.
Cracking review. I had been overly excited about the grenadier from every other review I’ve seen. I probably got to blinkered. This has made me sit back and look again, so I thank you for that.
110% Stefan, that these guys need to develop the prototype further for dedicated 4wd in Aus. I find the short arm, short travel very disappointing. Likewise how untidy things are underneath. Also agree 110% that Grenadier have my complete support in making it work and be successful.
All valid points Stefan, I just did the Berrimah day and see where you are coming from. I was dissapointed by the short suspension arms and can see that the suspension travel is limited. The ride dissapointed me as well and I question the choice of progressive springs. I found the rear seats uncomfortable with the seat backs being too vertical and the roof line too low. I'll be interested to see the final product and hope they address some/most of the issues. There are a lot of positives about the vehicle and Ineos are to be commended for bringing a solid axle vehicle to market but i'm not rushing to put my deposit down.
One of the better honest reviews I've watched, I'm old school and understand the need for simplicity and practical rugged design. This vehicle has a lot of good points/ engineering but as all modern day vehicles it is simply over done with technology ie. electrics, no doubt computer and plenty of plastic. These vehicles are only beneficial for the urban towny who drives them around town or goes camping once a year if they can afford to in their life where if the damn thing breaks down you can get it loaded onto a truck and humped back to a "qualified technician and equipped with all of the gear needed to diagnose a simple fix". I'm now living in a developing country where if it went down nobody here would have a bulls roar of an idea on how to get it going as it was designed. I don't know but it is a shame they didn't implement portal axles like the Unimog, would like to know why that isn't considered. Would love to see a model designed as a real workhorse, dual cab/ one ton drop side and useful to people in the developing countries where there are no service centers and we can keep the thing on the road ourselves.
You make some very good points. I find it surprising that these issues even exist considering how this vehicle was supposed to be designed with cues and inspiration from the Defender, Landcruiser and G-Wagons.
I totally agree with your concerns regarding the suspension, and the other things actually. I have also asked Ineos about fuel consumption and range. The lower rear suspension arms mounts look like vehicle stoppers to me, and I felt the arms looked quite short. I have not yet seen images or video of the front suspension adequate to form opinions or concerns. I do hope Ineos do some further development of the suspension. The concept of a vehicle built from the ground up as a four wheel drive is exciting.
Battery and electronics under the rear seat - damn! On my V8 County 110 I pulled that rear seat out, bolted it to the right hand side with recovery gear behind it, put a custom cabinet with a cooker, sliding table and sink unit on the left side, filled the rear footwell with an 80L aluminium water tank and flattened the floor with sound deadening and marine plywood. I guess I can't do that anymore!
I look forward to the final model and seeing how the engine/transmission goes reliability wise. My main concern is those top windows.. I couldn't imagine anything worse, especially for sleepy passengers on hot days.
An excellent and well considered review, highlighting important issues for many potential users. I attended a driving event in the UK last year and also applaud Ineos for demonstrating the prototype and it will be interesting to see how they have responded to all the feedback. The Grenadier will certainly fill a very neglected place in the market. I jumped out of my Discovery 4 for the Grenadier ride and was surprised at the noise levels and firm ride in comparison. I’m really hoping that Ineos will be able to address the concerns that you and many of us have highlighted and have a great success with the vehicle.
Hello from the high desert of New Mexico USA 🇺🇸. I just found your channel and I liked and subscribed. This is my favorite car made now days and I would do anything for one. You made a lot of good points. For me, I don't like the fact that you can't get the diesel engine in America and I wish that they would have used VW or Audi engines
Thank you for the review, I agree nearly all of your comments. Could space for additional fuel potentially be released by switching from dual exhaust system to a single exhaust? Deleting one of the exhausts must surely free up a lot of underfloor space? The rear axle control arms which hang so low in advance of the rear axle could then potentially also be relocated into some of the space gained? The front control arms are too short and probably will not currently allow for much raising of the suspension or larger tyres - their arcs of travel are surely too limited. The vehicle should simply be raised higher from the off - from the factory. All pictures and video clips I've seen give an impression that it is visibly too low for purpose. Apologies for all the negatives when in actual fact there are very many positives and well done Ineos, for making the vehicles available before release for potential user's comments. Actions you now take from these comments and other knowledgeable 4x4 enthusiasts and 4x Overlanders will define the future viability and sale-ability of the Grenadier. These will be your best critics and your best long term friends and fans.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the Ineos Grenadier. Very interesting to hear an opinion of an experienced 4x4 driver from Australia 👍 I think Ineos is producing their first generation cars for the European market. Here in Europe we do not have to take 260 liters of fuel for a trip 😉 The stock tires and steel (👍!) rims will do most of the normal (utility) offroading here. For me , the biggest problems are the ICE engines. Here in the Netherlands, where I live, we pay skyhigh taxes for cars with high CO2 output. A normal Landcruiser of Defender with ICE cost here about 130.000 euros. For that reason, only electric or fuel cell engines will be sold here in the near future. ICE engines are soon history in Europe. I own two Pajeros , first gen. 2500 diesel an second gen. 3500 petrol, and like them very much, and will keep them as oldtimers ( bought them new (!) in 1990 and 1999 ), very reliable cars. My next new car could be an Ineos Grenadier.........but only if they give it an electric engine ! I like the utiliy character of the Ineos 👍 Almost all other 4x4 cars , including the Landcruiser are here in Europe "luxury SUVs" standing on low profile street tires.......
The one thing I keep seeing in all of the videos of the Ineos is that the cooling pack is extended below the front bumper and looks prown to being clogged with mud or damaged while off road.
Really good honest viewpoints.. A little too much hoping it will be a winner, but your point on the rear seat battery etc. is located was very revealing....Water is a constant in real 4x4 , and not having to consider intrusion. Lots of work to do on this super price idea.
Great review Stephen, I’m heading to Berrima on Saturday and can’t wait to go for a spin. I’m sure if sales are strong enough the aftermarket boys will come up with solutions for all your concerns.
yea I’m keen to see as I think there are a few engineering / planing shortcomings. Hope they haven’t got them self in a corner with the design. I think whole floor should have been a little higher to allow more room underneath. I hope I’m wrong though and there will be some viable practical solutions.
I also attended one these days and asked a similar question about rear bashplate and the Ineos guy said if it was him that he would remove the East/West muffler for a smaller Nth/Sth muffler opening up the area for LR fuel tank. My other concern is the Transmission cooler is tucked right behind the LHS front bumper section which is prone to clogging from mud, etc and also open to possible damage. Looking purely from a touring point of view I like it but fuel range is a concern but I’m hopeful by the time I can afford one most things should have been sorted out
In terms of fuel capacity I guess adding a second tank as an option would be a good plan - not everyone is going to need that much fuel but it would be good to have a factory fitted extra fuel tank for those that need it.
Great offroad/overland-focused review with lots of good consideration points! In general, it seems like too much of a compromise vehicle (at least at this stage of development), given the stated intent to make a dedicated, "old school" 4x4. But they are also not shy about stating that vehicle design/building is not their forte, so hopefully they will take feedback like yours into account going forward. That said, in the end, it will ultimately come down to who their real customer will be. If their average buyer will do little more than the occasional dirt road, it wouldn't make sense to design it with long travel suspension and 35s. One final note - your last segment has some excellent footage of the suspension working! Maybe you could bring it up into the discussion about that earlier in the video? Unlike big name manufacturers, they haven't set up their test areas just inside the limits, so you can see by the slight spin of the front left tire just how much droop you get there. The rear seems to stuff quite nicely, but the articulation seems to be on par with competing vehicles for the most part. Thanks again for the effort to put this together!
I think the test track is just one that was available and has been designed for other vehicles, personally, I think the suspension travel for a coil-sprung solid axle vehicle is below average, I actually did a comparison of two images of a Jeep Cherokee and an Ineos in a similar position with front drivers wheel in the air and the IFS Cherokee seems to have very similar wheel travel. I would have thought the Ineos with solid axles and supposedly long-travel suspension would be way better than an IFS Jeep.
Now that the Grenadier is on sale I'd love to see a comparison between one of them and a base-spec new Defender. Although LR aren't actually selling base-spec cars at the moment so maybe that's why such an obvious side-by-side test doesn't seem to have been done yet.
This is a different kind of review from the others for sure. One has to applaud for Ineos for setting up a new company to manufacture vehicles for the market segment which other manufacturers have been vacating. Given that this is their first vehicle there are bound to be some rough edges. All vehicles are compromises and none of them is perfect. The import of Stefan's criticisms depends on what you expect from the vehicle (and my usage is overland trips using roads and tracks, however rough, used by the locals). Taking his points in no particular order. 1. Battery position. The Defender always had under seat batteries but no fuses or electronics down there and that was fine. Clearly the Grenadier would benefit from a waterproof battery box because they have other electrical bits and pieces there too. However the alternative is to place everything in the hot engine bay where things get cooked, shortening the service life. Is that really any better? 2. Underbody clearance. Yup it would benefit from a good tidy up and suspension lift / larger tyres. Not a deal breaker as I see it. Many owners would do the suspension upgrade irrespective. I probably wouldn't because this is already a very competent vehicle for general overlanding. 3. Fuel range. Yes if you are going to do the Canning Stock Route you need to drive a small fuel tanker like Stefan's. For regular overlanders a good rule of thumb is to have an ultimate range of 1000km (and you plan on 800km working range) for the terrain you encounter. Ineos should aim for that IMO. 4. Internal load space. If you are travelling as a couple and find the load space is obstructed because the back seats don't down fold down neatly it will be very annoying. Also the wheel arches need to be squared off so that storage boxes can be stacked there. For me a three door vehicle with a massive load compartment would be great and would open the option of sleeping inside the vehicle. My take is that the vehicle currently scores 7/10 and if Ineos is a listening company they will get the Grenadier to 9/10. Thanks for the honest review.
Refreshing to see a critical objective review of the Grenadier prototype which seems ok but expensive. I don’t think Ineos were planning on a full all out rock crawling overland ping Aussie or SA type 4wd. It’s likely the UK green lanes and towing the horse box is perhaps more aligned to the design original concept. B6 comparison my 2011 Toyota FJ Cruiser is fun to drive, doesn’t have a single rattle or squeak, still turns heads, drawing admiring comments and can go almost anywhere (and get back - Toyota Hino reliability).
I never expected it to replace my Rock Crawler but it was supposed to be a Defender replacement while not perfect and reasonably unreliable it was a modifier's dream and you could modify it to whatever you needed it to be. Missing that with the Grenadier
The only review worth listening to. Agree with every word. Let's hope they sort these issues out. My biggest concern is serviceability and parts availability in this very remote country. It has nothing on my cruiser. And at the prices they are asking it would be very hard to swap for a Grenadier. Thanks Stefan
I was looking at getting one of these to replace my FJ Cruiser when they come to the states. My FJ isn't a trail runner - but living in the climate I do I see snow fairly regularly and often I go to parts of the state where there are no paved roads - only forest/logging roads. But when I look at all of the low hanging fruit on this thing compared to my H1, it really makes me hope that its better tucked up in there. The great thing about the H1 is that there's nothing underneath lower than the front bumper (except the control arms of course) so you know that if you clear an obstacle under your front bumper - as long as you keep it right down the middle you'll be right as rain. Huge benefit IMO and having pumpkins drag links hanging around... ooof.
Hi Stephan - Excellent , thorough 4wd'ers review mate ! Nice to see someone getting under the truck :) Well done. Hopefully the guys designing this vehicle will continue building it along the lines of a good modifyable rig... It would be refreshing as we are rapidly running out of vehicles designed for purpose.
One hopes that the Ineos Grenadier doesn't suffer the same fate as the Australian Army Land Rover 110 did when the suspension had to be raised to accommodate the Isuzu diesel engine. The raising of the suspension created huge instability and became a roll-over death trap, requiring it be speed limited and creating an Army project to design a roll-over protection system. This is not likely to be a risk with Ineos, but you never know.
I Had a deposit down one and went and checked out the INEOS here in Melbourne at Lardner park. I had the same thought in regards the the rear drop boxes and fuel tank as you . The ground clearance is not adequate for Australia especially 4wding rather than touring. I didn't think 35s would fit in the wheel arches. Interior wise the front is nice but owning a y62 and having 2 kids its too small for a family. would be good for a couple though. Front seats and the overhead switch panel is fantastic. Overall I'm in agreement with everything you said and suffice to say I asked for my $800 deposit back
I’m very interested in this truck and it will very likely to replace my Nissan Frontier when it comes to the US, the biggest down side of the truck is the engine, B58 is not known for the reliability, If the truck has ford ecoboost or Toyota engine then it will be perfect but still I like this truck even with a mediocre engine
I hope the Grenadier becomes a succes. As real offroad vehicles are getting less in production numbers, every new model is a win for the community. As LR deleted their offroad program stopping the Defender in 2016, expectations were high. And so the downfall with the SUV Defender was massive. Thank you for your perspective and your honest words at the end. I did not sign for one but can see me driving one. As i can not see me in the so called New Defender.
Just confirms how well engineered the GU Patrols and Landcruisers were, particularly the 105 series. Not being able to lay the seats down flat and batteries under the rear seats would shit me. I’ll stick to my 76 series
Excellent review which asked the hard questions. It's certainly an excellent first attempt to build a new Defender. However, at this stage, I can't see the Ineos replacing my 2009 Defender 110, which has a 120 litre tank, rear airbags and six-speed manual. But I hope they keep trying.
From what I have seen in other videos etc the ground clearance and suspension stood out like the proverbial ......those trailing arm points should be up in the frame rails and longer! The rest of underneath needs a total redesign to be less prone to damage and getting snagged on a rock etc and that under seat battery setup is just wrong on ten different levels.Good and fair run down on the most important pluses and minuses as I see. Hopefully they can get all this sorted and they should have a winner!!
100% agree, the choice of a 5k Red Winch but on the other-hand using less reliable Harrop E-Lockers is very questionable in my book. If a short person like ASPW has issues sitting in the drivers seat because of the foot rest I think for someone tall like me it would be very uncomfortable for longer trips.
I’ve got a 105 series with factory diff locks. I was hoping the 300 series would tempt me out of it but no dice. Now the Ineos looks like a let-down as well. Unless they address the shortcomings you’ve identified the upcoming g-wagon professional is the sole contender.
Adjustable lower arms on the 5-link front end will help address any castor issues when lifting the suspension. The CV/rzeppa joints and be a PITA when lifting and I expect this will be a bit of an issue for some. I'm not sure I'd buy the first iteration of this truck but I reckon it will evolve quickly. If you look at the 79 series LC they have a number of issues that need addressing too. Like you said nothing is perfect.
yes, 100%, the 79 is very modifiable though, but one reason I haven't owned one is that I don't want to change axle housings on a new vehicle to just run the same track width.
I wish they went with a light commercial engine/driveline (ie; Isuzu, Iveco etc) over the BMW/ZF combo. The suspension design is very similar to the G-Wagen (W461) which is no surprise given Magna Steyr's involvement. The G Professional does not have outstanding wheel travel given that it is all coils (3 lockers will help that). I am not a fan of the battery/ECU location - from a water issue and also accessibility (would have been better under the cubby locker in the centre console for the ECU). Extra fuel tanks are going to be an issue (as is the case with the G-wagen, although the aftermarket have addressed some of these issues) but you won't be getting 180ltrs. Jerry's are going to be required (roof loads of 150kgs, I believe). The petrol does appear to have some vacant space underneath as the AdBlue tank is not required.
Not sure if anyone's mentioned it. But the fuse and battery box under rear seat is sealed, according to Mark that you would have met on the Glenworth valley drive. Aside: Being sealed it may cause issues with standard lead acid batteries. But stock batteries are AGM which are recombinant.
yea wasn't mentioned to me and wasn't sealed when we saw it, while I'm not a big fan of under-seat location it has one great advantage it would lend itself perfectly for a Lithium starter and aux set up, especially if you could fit two 100ah LiFePo4 underneath.
Best review I've seen yet. Critical, but fair. Too many low hanging components for my liking. Battery/fuse location compromises rear seating height and ability to have a flat load space with seats folded. Additional fuel capacity a big issue for Australian touring.
I’m overall a fan of the grenadier. I agree that it sits too low and would benefit from a slight lift and larger tires. The sloped rear fender covers are odd. Making them flat would help with storage systems. The drivetrain sounds overall good but that shifter is out of place. It’s electronic and has no mechanical connection to the transmission. That needs to be replaced with a standard shift lever. They’ve come a long way in a short time however. I feel these prototype rides will help improve the final product and we still see some changes.
Best review ever, well untill we actually see a production run car rather than beta. It does seem to have a few issues. The battery and fuse box are crazy unless they are sealed in a waterproof box. The vehicle will do everything a farmer in the UK will want in its present suspension set up. Those who want some extreme off roading will convert it just like every defender or Suzuki you see. But it does need bigger tyres and slightly more ground clearance as standard. Fuel tank I imagine can be an issue in deserts and outback but in the UK not an issue and the upper windows might be hot in aus but will be great in the UK. My biggest gripe is the adblue engine. I get it on the emmisions being forced on us in Europe but should be an option for no ad blue elsewhere. Don't get me started on the price it started out as 30 to 35k now reports of over 50. I suspect it's transformed from a wish list and great concept to a compromise to suit euroarea silly rules. Shame as it had great potential. Now built in France I won't be buying one as a matter of principle.
yes I would agree at it's the current stage it will be a good on-road light tourer and farm vehicle for the UK, it's to a Defender replacement or hardcore 4wd. While I'm sure aftermarket will come up with some solutions looking at the overall design it's not as modifying friendly as the car it aimed to replace (Defender) or any of the other older style 4wd like Landcruisers 80, 105 etc.
I think it can be modified pretty well I know there are already companies offering suspension tweaks and raising kits. But at 50k I suspect you are better with a 30 year old defender and all the cool kits you can buy.
Personal peeve - like most European cars, the rear taillights, brake lights, indicators etc are very small. Covered in dust, how visible will they be? Forward visibility immediately ahead of the vehicle not as good as Defender. Maybe bonnet is longer to accommodate straight 6. Enjoyed your review.
Thanks for the Video. Sorry - i do not read all 449 comments. My comments are from South Africa - I do nothing than travel Africa. 1. Good comment on gauges. Silly no VDO gauges in direct view. 2. Electronics and batteries under seat. silly idea.3. The front and rear bash plates are too low - I realised already on first footage of coverage.4. Fuel tanks too small for real bundu travel. ---- Sorry, I will stick to my defender 110 TDI. My County has 2 seats and a level space right to the rear door with plenty of storage under! But well investigated. Thanks. Wilfried from South Africa
what I would like to see is portal axles and a 10 speed transmission with 1-4 for low ratio off road driving and 5-10 for high ratio on road driving. no stopping to go between high and low.
yea VW tried that with the Amarok, works quite well in forward but without a low range TC you have only one high range gear in revers which can cause big issues.
@@AlloffroadAu would be nice to have a separate reverse selector to have all gears in reverse somewhat like the unimog or have the reverse ratio too match the ratio of first gear.
![Ineos Grenadier - Why it's not the perfect 4wd! [2022]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cTDVWaLJfM8/mqdefault.jpg)
UPDATE ||||||
-------------------------------------------------------
Ineos contacted me to clarify the fuel figures I estimated "You flagged a range of figures based on what you saw on the dash while riding in the vehicle. We just wanted to note that this fuel range isn’t necessarily what the final specification will be. The prototype is running BETA software at this point and as a result, the sensors aren’t delivering the full range on the screen as seen."
--------------------------------------------------------
In my Ineos prototype review, I will take a more realistic approach to see if the Grenadier could be my Long Range 4wd Touring vehicle in the harsh Australian Outback and beyond. Let me know what you think in the comments below.
Full disclosure, I have a deposit down. IMHO the Grenadier has to be looked at when the production vehicle is made. For example, the lower swing arms have already been address and ineos felt they were to low. Magna is correcting the issue. The battery box as pointed out by another comment is going to be in a waterproof box. Old man Emu is already working on a lift. You are able to put 35 with little to no modifications. Because they are using tractor axels the weight of wheel will be supported. Ineos has announced they are retooling the steering which should tuck the damper up. Ineos has announce you will be able to get underbody protection that is thicker than the 4mm they use now. Ineos is talking about providing a drawer system that makes everything flat when you put down the rear seats. Now let's discuss how it differs from Rubicon, a USA favorite. Ineos is not a rock crawler and that is where the Jeep excel. But a Jeep can't tow 7700lbs. Jeep can't have 700lbs strap to the roof. You can modify the hell out of a Jeep but we know third party manufactures have already committed to making parts. Ineos has stated many will get the protype versions to design parts. We have to wait for final version before we can make a true assessment.
Can only judge the car by what I see so far, Credit to Ineos and displaying a prototyp hopefully they make use of the opportunity this presents and make required changes. I also would not take a Jeep as a tourer but in the US many do. Off road capability of the Ineos is well below a jeep at present. Looking forward to see final version of Ineos
I’ve put a $800 reservation down. I’ll wait before I make a decision.
Let's hope so
Well done I will want a 2" lift and 35 tyres in a couple of weeks we get to do the final order. The wife said it has to be mushroom or forget it. I think I can live with that.
@@johnswinkels4383 I reckon I’m going the red with black. Lift and 35 - is a must have.
1st review I've seen that pointed out that Ineos are making service manuals publicly available. Since this is important to not just the buyers, but Right-to-Repair in general (so many manufacturers make it near impossible to get this information) - I think this really should be highlighted!
Hats off to Ineos, they are bringing prototype/pre-production cars out to the public. Of course there are going to be bits and pieces that aren't right and things that need to be fixed. They are bringing the 'Old school' 4x4 kicking and screaming into the 21st century.....it's so exciting!🤓
It's s total piece of engineering overkill in the wrong place and really really sorry to say but it will not sell.. Having built trucks for the Dakar Rally and other off highway vehicles this just not going to work.. Too many issues, suspension is the most important factor and they have failed completely unless you want and old man's old school Defender type vehicle, then buy a Defender its way better..
Mate, best review out there so far. Real perspective and consideration for Australian use. Will be interesting to see how popular the vehicle will be here.
thank you Sir
Depends also in the price and the customer base
Totally agree. Great that it 4x4 exists, for obvious competition reasons. As pointed out the low hanging bits and pieces under are disappointing. The no speedo in front strange. And the under seat fuses a very strange decision. But again, great to have it coming along.
Even , just same as DEFENDER the people still prefer ro buy DEFENDER..😀😀😀
Great review Stefan! I found the link to it it on AULRO (Aus Land Rover forum)!
That being said, I am an Ineos "paid up deposit/ early hand raiser " and spent several hours at the Scenic Rim (Qld) drive day.
A couple of things: At the outset, Ineos stated that the design intent was for a reliable "work horse", not a go-anywhere extreme off-roader . I quizzed the Ineos blokes on this intently.
Fuel capacity: I gleaned from the reports on the above mentioned LR website, and comments on the Qld drive day, that Rick Bates was the driver who ferried vehicle from Sth Aus. to SE Qld over a couple of days. From his fuel stops wrt distance on a 90L tank, he got around 9.x L/100km admitting he 'pushed it along' the whole way ! :-) A standard 800-900km range for what's intended is reasonable. In a previous life, a 100L fuel bladder was a very economical way to carry diesel fuel for range extension as/when required
Underbody clearance: The Ineos people said that the standard vehicle can take a 50mm lift as is without worrying about drive angles/ brake lines etc. That would take the clearance to a tad over 300mm under the diff on the proposed standard 17" wheels/tyre combination !
Rear Door: it's rated for 110kg minimum, as are all other 4 doors with the track inserts
A 35" tyre is heavy and not needed for most people. I personally would much prefer to drive to the conditions...at my age, lifting a 32" tyre/rim combination will be fine thanks! Which is why also I'll probably opt for the alloy rather than steel wheels.
Given that I have a retirement list a mile long of jobs for SWMBO, now that I've found your channel I must spend more time watching it...all in the name of critical research you understand!!
Good luck!
Thanks for the review. It is good to hear the perspective of someone who is assessing it against harder 4wd scenarios. As you mentioned, most of the reviews I have seen appear to give their assessments against what we might call 'general' on and off-road use, likely what the majority of users will have in mind, and no doubt the major target of Ineos. This makes sense. However, I see no harm in assessing whether or not it will be a suitable vehicle for those that do harder, long-distance, remote travel, where we need more clearance, more range, better articulation, and components designed to both weeks of corrugations or days of rock/mud terrain.
After we lost the likes of the coil sprung Toyotas and Patrols, we have all been wanting something new that gives us live-axles, coils and disk brakes all-round, reasonable engine power/torque, essentially a base platform that the Grenadier seems to possess. I applaud Ineos for their efforts in this so far. But I too remain hopeful that there is some provision for the other things we require for our passions, either supplied at source or aftermarket, to include the extra fuel capacity, suspension lift/performance improvements and legally/practically allow larger tyres. We shall see what comes out in the production versions. Thanks again.
Fantastic review. I hope Ineos can manage to take your recommendations on board. I understand that it's also a game of compromises but when you're talking of replacing the legendary defender, things like approach, departure, break-over angles, and payload count as irreducible minimums.
On the weekend at a prototype tour, they confirmed the seat battery will be encased in the final product, to prevent flooding.
great I wasn't told that, lets's see and wait.
@@AlloffroadAu One of the points Ineos do make about the interior is that it can be hosed out.. That suggests to me that they've already encased the electrics in the final build.. as you say, time will tell.
As a current L316 Defender owner I can say that your observations are spot on. If these fundimental issues such as suspension travel limitations, wheel size options, fuel capacity and low hanging components haven't been dealt by now they are set to stay, meaning best I hold on to my 'old Defender...
Thank you for your honesty!we need more people like you to go past the hype and tell us the nitty gritty. I hope Ineos will work out all the issues! It already has great looks, and I hope it will be capable for what it's designed for and be reliable!
I appreciate that
INEOS's first problem is it needs to sell and make money; 35" tyres and better angles will makes it too expensive to get through type approval and noise limits. Huge standard fuel capacity will make it too heavy and upset the fuel consumption conformity. INEOS have already announced co-operation with the aftermarket crowd, so I would be hopeful for long term development. INEOS's announcements on third party support are almost diametrically opposite to the statements of JLR and their design supremo, who want to chase the aftermarket away from current products.
An interesting review; it is always good to hear another measured opinion. I did the 2B tour in the UK in August 2021 and thought it was smoother, quieter, more powerful and tighter turning than my existing elderly LR. I've reserved one, but then I'm looking for a modern alternative to a 1989 LR110 CSW, updated with a 200Tdi, in the green UK!
Totally agree ,
After all not everyone is Jim
Jeep's success is partly due to aftermarket add-ons. People love to customize their vehicles. The mod community makes the vehicle vibrant. It would be a big mistake not to engage the aftermarket suppliers.
You mention the JLR design supremo. He appears to be someone who sneers at traditional Defender owners (like me) and has done more than any other individual to alienate their traditional customer base. A member of the urban elite / know-it-alls.
@@defendermodsandtravels But he has sold a lot of FFRR, RR Sports and Evokes. Defender was never a big seller and JLR need to shift metal.
@@JeremyEdwards996 Yes and he has designed a range of overly complicated, unreliable vehicles which have caused great reputational damage and cost at least 100,000 lost sales p.a. according to their CEO Thierry Bolloré. Nice work.
Totally agree on need for 33 inch tyres minimum. You can tell that just by looking at the vehicle.
I reckon waiting for the longer wheel base will give room underneath for an added fuel tank and some other changes.
Fuel capacity could be the deal breaker. Most other aspects are either great or can be worked around. There really doesn't seem to be space for an aux fuel tank, but happy to be proved wrong. Australia definitely needs more fuel capacity.
The rails on the side carry extra fuel cans... or water whatever.
Definitely a great review and an actual good look at things that matter to offroaders. I think what I have learned as a Land Rover owner is that British companies build offroaders built for terrain they see, but other parts of the world (US here) have a much different view, and we also have these things called a Rubicon and a Sasquatch. This is only a first look and no firsthand driving on more difficult terrain, so I will reserve last judgement for that review. I think another limiting factor will be the extent to which the aftermarket gets involved. It's a cool, new toy for sure, but it's a one-off built by not-a-car-company so I think some will sit on the sidelines for a bit to see how it evolves.
Definitely agree, one of the main pitfalls of British Industry has been failing to design stuff for world wide use, for some things at some points in time you could get away with it but not anymore.
Ineos is on a right path... they will improve very quickly because with out any prior experience they build something like this think of MK 2... I am a huge fan of companies who go against the typical style.
Great review. Like you said, too many motor journalists are reviewing off road vehicles, instead of guys who use them every day out in the field.
Refreshing to hear a review from an experienced 4x4 person. I think the effort Ineos puts into allowing the public to road test in a public forum shows they are willing to listen and are keen to develop the vehicle before production commences. Keep up the good work !
Well said!
Great review! The best I’ve seen, thank you. I agree with the points you’ve mentioned. I went to an experience center in Berrima where they took us for a drive around a lap of gnarly bush tracks and we got to poke around the vehicle and ask questions.
✅The ride was very good. They have spent a lot of money sorting out the suspension and it shows. Very well damped and no shudder or wobble. The cabin was a pre production version so all interior plastics were 3d printed so it felt nasty but you got the concept.
✅Engine was the diesel and it felt strong and torquey.
✅You could see the build quality is going to be really good in the production model. They want people to keep their Grenadier for a long time.
I was impressed by the ride quality but found some major disappointments elsewhere:
❌Driver visibility was poor. They have copied the old defender roof line which pushes it down very low at the front and makes for a narrow windscreen which also makes the side windows quite low so your head is up inside the roof. The B pillar is quite far forward so your eye line is blocked by the window frame of the door, especially when looking to merge lanes (say, on a road with traffic).
❌The door sill is quite far from the seat so getting in and out in one smooth move is difficult, even with my long legs.
The low roof line and low top of the door frame also made access difficult.
❌Not much leg room. I can stretch out in the drivers seat in my Discovery but not in the Grenadier. They said I could move my seat back, which was true but the footwell is very shallow so if I want more leg room the rear passengers lose it. Cabin felt quite cosy, albeit not as bad as the old Defender, but no where as spacious or comfy as my Discovery.
❌Rear seats don’t fold flat and not very comfy.
❌Rear cargo floor was quite high with no apparent reason (no third seating row folded away in there).
❌Expensive. Starting at AuD $85k with no options this thing is a good $20k more than a specced up Japanese work Ute. Any vehicle sold on Oz over $70k attracts a Luxury Car Tax, plus other dealer and stamp duty, meaning this thing will easily be $110k drive away.
I think they’ve succeeded in making a strong and well sorted vehicle from scratch that will take on rugged terrain with ease and will hopefully be a good tough truck to fill the niche in the market where a G-Wagon is too fancy and a Toyota 70 Series is too bumpy.
But, in short, it’s not for me. I prefer my Discovery as a great all rounder.
thanks, not so sure if they really sorted out suspension, the front looks like a near copy of the Jeep Wrangler suspension which is good but very finicky. If you google Jeep dead wobble you find a plethora of posts and I personally had it in my Jeep which is very scary. The Jeep suspension is easily upset and just a small misalignment and bushed can cause this and it would be hard to fix or diagnose in the bush. There is a recent Ineos promotional video out which shows a few seconds of horrible dead wobble in the suspension.
Thanks for your perspective on the Grenadier. From what I've seen of it, only on videos thus far, it appears your three "complaints" are right on the money. I've been driving 4-WD's since 1964. I presently drive a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon I've had since new. For 30 years, 1964-1993, I drove Series Land Rovers. I'm far more a "Defender" kind of guy than a Range Rover type of person. The Grenadier may be just my ticket if your points get built into the production vehicle! Thank you very much! Andy McKane, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii, USA.
Thank you Andy, lets see how it turns out
Thanks for pointing out some the sticky points - like the battery and fuses under the seat. Once I saw that , thats exactly what I thought about fording water. The steering dampener is also a concern. The idea for skid plates is to have all the sensitive part be covered by the plates.
There's a pretty good chance this is only in prototypes as they need to access all of this for engineering testing.
In the beginning I was skeptical about "I will tell you things that others do not" and almost wanted to skip the video, but author quickly passed to interesting technical details and design drawbacks, which I never heard of before in other videos about grenadier. Than you!
Love your review.
It is very comprehensive, love the side by side spec comparison table at the beginning. I also like how breakdown your discussion in different sections and more importantly, the low hanging parts underneath the vehicle that will affect the offroad ability.
I live in U.S. and will link this video to my favorite offloading/truck review channel trying that they copy some of your review approach techniques.
Never thought such big fuel tanks were needed. 260L or 68 gals will have a range somewhere about 700-900 miles. Definetly you do more remote offloading in Australia.
According some reviewers in the USA, we will not have the diesel engine option.
Excellent review (and helpful comments). Hopefully the second row seats can be removed completely and battery covered. My LC 100’s with seats removed are comfortable to sleep in, and will haul an American sized refrigerator (68” tall) just fine. Manufacturers aiming for the “luxury” market have killed the versatile work/overland vehicles in the USA (no, I do not want a ‘ute’ or pickup). USA does not even get the LC300, just the $100k+ Lexus version. The Grenadier is a move in the right direction, thank you for pointing out the +/- ‘s!
That was one of the best critical reviews of the Grenadier from someone who has 4x4 experience. Good stuff!
Has to be one of the most comprehensive reviews of the vehicle. The complexity of the suspension lift with drive shafts and short linkages is a pretty serious deal breaker in my opinion... the rear leg room is also a bit of a let down.
Fantastic review mate, well done!
Thanks for a great review. I felt it was an honest and realistic itemisation of the potential weak points. I have experienced the demonstration day in the Ineos and have followed their progress since their inception. I have been looking for the ideal replacement for my Land Rover Discovery 4 for some time and was hoping the Ineos would be the one. Some of the short comings are of concern given the stated high objectives of the Ineos Project. I am not so worried about the fuel capacity as the Discovery has great fuel efficiency and I expect the Ineos to be similar. A couple of extra Jerry cans will be sufficient. My greater concern is the lack of ground clearance and the general vulnerability of some of the under body components. Also the centre console encroachment into the rear seating area as well as the way the rear seats do not lay down flat is a big problem. Particularly when a better design approach could have been adopted. The vulnerability of the under seat battery and electronics location to water ingress is less than ideal. These are all items that affect confidence in the product I regret to say
I agree with your comments, but a disco 3 performs better than a D4. If you want a car that is “better” than a D4, the D5 is much better. If you want off road, this is much better “on paper” than the D4. Otherwise buy a 2.4tdci 110. All off road cars are a compromise. A canter 4x4 crew cab on super singles will out perform most off road, but slow on road. Nothing is perfect
Haven't made my mind up as to whether I would buy one yet, but it does appear Ineos have got a lot of things right with the Grenadier, and full credit to them, especially given this is their first go at building a vehicle of any description, let alone a worthy successor to one of the most iconic 4WDs the world has seen....
The 'open source' style approach Ineos is taking with the vehicle is also promising, and I believe they are working with the aftermarket companies to develop accessories....though as Stefan and others have noted, increasing the fuel capacity appears to be the biggest challenge at this point....
I will definitely continue following the development of this vehicle, and be sure to check it out in the metal once it goes on sale....
Excellent analysis with NO sugar coating !! I hope Ineos takes your comments to heart !!!
You have earned my Subscription sir !!
I hope so too!
Seems like a very objective & fair first analysis, given that you can’t get a vehicle for review. Your Australian touring perspective is spot on. Thank you and well done. 👍🇦🇺
thank you
Max Hornibrook
Ineos Grenadier is appealing to those who will go off-road when they wish and feel confident, knowing the vehicle and its limits. They are not trying to break it but enjoy the trip or do the job at hand and return safely. Then take a trailer full of sheep to the market because that is what it is designed for, a perfect on/off-road truck that will do the job and pull a load as it is built to do. I think that overlanders have built specialist vehicles and take that vehicle on off offroad trips, that may be not the vehicle to pull the boat wherever or trips to the dump with a trailer load or a trip to the cape with the fam. The Grenadier is the strong allrounder that I have been waiting for, a sensible, sturdy workhorse with enough comfort, grunt and style made simply.
Buy a Landcruiser 76 series with its beautiful 4.5 litre turbo diesel. It’s ticks all your boxes
that may be true for the UK or SA but not for Australia or many other countries like the US we have many cars available here who will do exactly the same and do some things better.
Great review and about time we got something that relates to rubber on the road as to what may or may not cause issues, I think it is about time Ineos got some utube creators to take this thing for a test drive
A Fair and honest review - the fuel range is a big concern - i am not sure where the battery and electronics will be housed on the commercial version as it seems to have a completely flat floor - The challenge Grenadier had was the same one Landrover ( Defender ) had - it has to build a vehicle which will appeal to the masses and meet various safety standards which is understandable -including all the constraints they had to meet - imagine an aircraft designed by a committee !
I like the points you bring up. Also, as you say, it depends on use and location. Where I run, in the deserts of Utah, Nevada, and Arizona, I'm not worried as much about water crossings (water? ha!) as I am about range - that's a big deal. Good to see the potential negatives as well as the positives.
Das ist tatsächlich das erste und einzige ehrliche Video das ich zu dem Fahrzeug sehe und es spiegelt viele meiner eigenen Fragen wieder. Danke Dir dafür. Ich bin sehr gespannt was am Ende bei dem Fahrzeug wirklich raus kommt. Gruß
vielen danke, ja da bin ich auch sehr gespannt
Wow best vid yet. Thanks for that. I feel exactly the same- some great things and potential, but some issues, namely:
1. Ground clearance- I can only judge based on vids and what I’ve seen but it doesn’t seem great for what it is. Which means mods necessary. Then question is- how easy will that be? Will it be a lego vehicle like a Jeep? Thanks for insight into underside- again that has some worries for me with lifting it and fitting larger tires. Right now all of these are questions and concerns and hopefully Ineos will address them positively, but the fact that noone I have seen but you (including Ineos) so far is even mentioning this is annoying. I’m not as concerned about the control arm mounts as much though, as they can be armored up with slippery skid plates pretty easily.
2. Articulation- like ground clearance I am stuck with what I can see in vids, and like you say most of the vids are on pretty mellow tracks that dont test articulation much. But what I’ve seen seems less than what I was expecting for how it is built. Not sure why but your comments on the suspension parts and lengths may be the issues. Can this be fixed? Remains to be seen.
3. Things I already hate-
A. The damn back seat that doesn’t fold flat. Are you f’ing kidding me? That has to be the height of stupidity. And I dont want to hear from Ineos that I can buy the commercial variant without a back seat- maybe, just maybe I want a back seat sometimes and other times full, flat cargo space for longer items. Just maybe. At least now I know why. You are the first I have seen to mention that battery and fuse box is under the rear seat. I didnt know that. Man I hate that if that is what is causing rear seats not to fold flat and for same reason you mention- if they’re there they better be in a waterproof box.
B. The instrument cluster. Well it is a cluster/ cluster F that is. Why is nothing in front of the driver? Looking to the center to see basic info requires the driver to take his eyes off of what is in front. Wtf are they thinking? And then I agree- one screen with everything. That is risky. They say this is purpose built- where is the built in redundancy or at least some mechanical gauges? Also not having a harddrive GPS is dumb- everyone has smart phones these days- well yeah but many apps only work with cell service and a lot of places I and probably a lot of others go dont have it. Sure some of my outdoor apps allow me to download a certain number of grids of the maps to store on the hard drive that doesnt require cell service, but I still like redundancy of having it on in veh as well.
SUMMARY - a LOT to like- too much to list to be honest. But the above could be issues. My biggest worry though- long term viability of it. Seems like their business plan is based around building a veh primarily for NGOs and touring companies in the boonies and a market that I dont think exists much anymore for vehicles like this or the old Defender (farmers). The problem with this is I dont think those segments, including farmers if they do still exist as a market of significance, are going to buy enough of these alone to keep it afloat. All of these industries might be great at buying it when it comes out, but they don’t buy a lot of vehicles on the regular. They keep em running and keep em for 20 years. After the first couple to few years of sales because of its newness, will these markets alone be enough to sustain it as a business entity? Until now the Grenadier has been an ego project for Mr. Radcliff; if it can’t sustain itself financially in the long term will he continue to prop it up with profits from other parts of Ineos? I think to be successful Ineos has to sell these in quantity to civis who don’t need everything they offer all the time, or for some people ever. And they have to sell well in the US. Here they will be competing against the long entrenched Jeep, and now the Bronco, as well as Toyota. Bronco has a 35s and lifted package, Jeep has introduced same, and all of them are easy to mod even if you don’t get it from the factory. Sorry but offering the Grenadier in the US with only 31 in tires and difficulty modifying will be a death sentence for sales here. And I suspect places like Australia too from the vids I watch. So that is my biggest concern for the Grenadier, can it sustain sales long enough to support itself financially and be a viable, ongoing entity? Time will tell, but I feel a bit like they need to bring in some non European marketers to help them with this. It’s great to have the concept of built on purpose and all, but they’re going to have to sell them to a broad market to make it and be more than just some billionaire’s pet ego project of the history books.
Look forward to more of your vids on it.
very well said mate
This sounds like a really fair review, in regards to your battery point, I think that the battery/electrical components would be a good fit above the rear wheel arches, then any jacks, wrenches, etc can go under the rear seats.
I was also surprised that they said it does not have sway bar disconnects, the test drive I went on was extremely smooth at high speeds but when the serious bumps came it was definitely bumpy!
The suspension support parts I think would get caught on rocks like you mentioned however looking and the wrangler and bronco's they too have the same problem.
Another concern I have which I talked to the Ineos guys on the tour was about the plastic BMW cooling parts which is ridiculous have on an off roading driving around in Australia.
I belive this should be shared with Ineos, so they rectify these issues.
Just glad it’s an option and they won in court. Hopefully they build a soft top , and two door later with possible manual option.
this is the kind of analysis you need when buying something that doesn't exist that you can't look at or drive. Very well done video. Carwow did talk about how even the new defender has better angles.. The look underneath is invaluable I agree you will be on the rocks a lot with stock tires..
Easily the best review from a true 4x4 enthusiast. Thank you for this.
Glad you liked it!
This was an excellent review. You covered exactly some of the questions I had about the undercarriage. All those low-hanging parts and the questions you ask about the drive train implications of lifting 2"-3" to put 35s on are perfect. A poor turning radius is a killer. I am interested in hearing the answers to your questions. For the kind of overlanding I do here in the US, the entrance/departure angle question is important but of greatest value to me is the fuel tank capacity. The current 90L (~23 US Gallons) could stand improvement. Finally, the battery/fuse placement is a real problem because the inability to lay the seats flat removes the ability to efficiently pack the rear cargo area (which is already small). When I go overlanding, I need all the space I can get in the cargo area and strange angles create a lot of problems when packing up. Thanks for this very good review. Subscribed.
Thing is I dont think they designed it for an overlander / off road niche specialist ...its a utility truck for a farmer with as good an off road capability as 98% of the market needs .. That extra 2% that you need could have added another 10% cost to the truck .... If you want something truly specialist then there are 1000s of defenders and land cruisers to modify !
I don't agree, a Jeep Rubicon for example is way better off-road from a factory than an Ineos. While I agree that my requirements are a little higher, the thing is I can modify an old Defender, 200 Series, 70 Series, 100 Series, Patrol without too much effort to meet my requirements and i would think that should be possible on a vehicle purposely build as a 4wd. A lot of the advertising and testing shows it in Afrika, Deserts etc so a tourer must sure have been on their radar. I think the Ineos has limited itself a bit but we shall see how the final version ends up, especially the dual cab. I dare to say that with the current tyre size you will have quite a few issues in Australia without doing any extreme stuff. Ineos will never be my rock crawler
@@AlloffroadAu I dont disagree with any of the design elements you highlight that are less than ideal . I was quite shocked when they released the video some time go showing chassis development and saw those low hanging trailing arm mounts . The rear always seemed a bit low slung to me too. Im in the UK and have run a 300dti 90 for offroading - 35" tyres, winch , roll cage ...all that stuff now for 18 odd years (not the outback but some dedicated sites i go to push the capabilities of driver and truck to the limits) I can see from the elements you again highlight the Grenadier would not be ideal for my purposes either. Given Im no super brain on these matters Im sure the genius pool at INEOS must have been aware of these issues given all the experience and input from the off road community they have had . This is what makes me think they have just made a commercial decision to produce the best utility vehicle they can to the point that satisfies 98% of the market and basically said the other 2% is up to you ! . Farmers will probably love it , utility companies will probably love it ..maybe even the military on a bare bones version. Your weekend outdoors lifestyle action guy will love it along with those that just live in remote (ish) by UK standards areas. As it is the cost of the Grenadier is not exactly utility which is maybe why land rover realised themselves they just couldn't develop their classic defender anymore given the markets they now want to push their current range into. I think Ineos just baulked at doing the last 2 % because it would not be commercially viable for them given the extra costs , I know from my truck the large sums of money you can chuck at them for incrementally small gains . All that said the video was spot on ..really enjoyed it 👍
Ineos have made a fantastic job with the Grenadier . There has to be a balance between off road and road and having used Landrover for over 40 years as a off road work vehicle all I have ever needed to do is put gun tractor wheels on the vehicle with NATO Military tyres . This solves all ground clearing problems and very rare to have to go into four drive and that is towing heavy vehicles out of the bottom of a quarry when digging in. But this gives you a ten foot running height and not very good traction on the road , sliding around especially when braking. My message to Landrover is look what happens when you fill your management structure and design team with very young adults 🧑.
Cracking review. I had been overly excited about the grenadier from every other review I’ve seen. I probably got to blinkered. This has made me sit back and look again, so I thank you for that.
Glad I could help
I totally agree with your comments about ground clearance. That's potentially a very large repair costs.
Finally, a real review from a real off-roader. Electrics under rear seat and low ground clearance are show-stopper issues for me. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
110% Stefan, that these guys need to develop the prototype further for dedicated 4wd in Aus. I find the short arm, short travel very disappointing. Likewise how untidy things are underneath.
Also agree 110% that Grenadier have my complete support in making it work and be successful.
All valid points Stefan, I just did the Berrimah day and see where you are coming from. I was dissapointed by the short suspension arms and can see that the suspension travel is limited. The ride dissapointed me as well and I question the choice of progressive springs. I found the rear seats uncomfortable with the seat backs being too vertical and the roof line too low. I'll be interested to see the final product and hope they address some/most of the issues.
There are a lot of positives about the vehicle and Ineos are to be commended for bringing a solid axle vehicle to market but i'm not rushing to put my deposit down.
One of the better honest reviews I've watched, I'm old school and understand the need for simplicity and practical rugged design. This vehicle has a lot of good points/ engineering but as all modern day vehicles it is simply over done with technology ie. electrics, no doubt computer and plenty of plastic. These vehicles are only beneficial for the urban towny who drives them around town or goes camping once a year if they can afford to in their life where if the damn thing breaks down you can get it loaded onto a truck and humped back to a "qualified technician and equipped with all of the gear needed to diagnose a simple fix". I'm now living in a developing country where if it went down nobody here would have a bulls roar of an idea on how to get it going as it was designed. I don't know but it is a shame they didn't implement portal axles like the Unimog, would like to know why that isn't considered. Would love to see a model designed as a real workhorse, dual cab/ one ton drop side and useful to people in the developing countries where there are no service centers and we can keep the thing on the road ourselves.
You make some very good points. I find it surprising that these issues even exist considering how this vehicle was supposed to be designed with cues and inspiration from the Defender, Landcruiser and G-Wagons.
yes indeed not what I expected at all
Thanks for making a nice review and good point that you mentioned are really important and for any off-roader or overlander .
Glad it was helpful!
I totally agree with your concerns regarding the suspension, and the other things actually. I have also asked Ineos about fuel consumption and range. The lower rear suspension arms mounts look like vehicle stoppers to me, and I felt the arms looked quite short. I have not yet seen images or video of the front suspension adequate to form opinions or concerns. I do hope Ineos do some further development of the suspension. The concept of a vehicle built from the ground up as a four wheel drive is exciting.
Battery and electronics under the rear seat - damn! On my V8 County 110 I pulled that rear seat out, bolted it to the right hand side with recovery gear behind it, put a custom cabinet with a cooker, sliding table and sink unit on the left side, filled the rear footwell with an 80L aluminium water tank and flattened the floor with sound deadening and marine plywood. I guess I can't do that anymore!
I look forward to the final model and seeing how the engine/transmission goes reliability wise.
My main concern is those top windows.. I couldn't imagine anything worse, especially for sleepy passengers on hot days.
My Disco 1 has a transparent top window but with an inner sliding cover. I can't say it causes me any problems even in hot climates.
An excellent and well considered review, highlighting important issues for many potential users. I attended a driving event in the UK last year and also applaud Ineos for demonstrating the prototype and it will be interesting to see how they have responded to all the feedback. The Grenadier will certainly fill a very neglected place in the market. I jumped out of my Discovery 4 for the Grenadier ride and was surprised at the noise levels and firm ride in comparison. I’m really hoping that Ineos will be able to address the concerns that you and many of us have highlighted and have a great success with the vehicle.
Hello from the high desert of New Mexico USA 🇺🇸. I just found your channel and I liked and subscribed. This is my favorite car made now days and I would do anything for one. You made a lot of good points. For me, I don't like the fact that you can't get the diesel engine in America and I wish that they would have used VW or Audi engines
Welcome aboard!
Great review - Thanks a ton. Hope Ineos will have a closer look and rethink one or two concerns you raised. Awesome Job!
I hope so too!
Thank you for the review, I agree nearly all of your comments. Could space for additional fuel potentially be released by switching from dual exhaust system to a single exhaust? Deleting one of the exhausts must surely free up a lot of underfloor space? The rear axle control arms which hang so low in advance of the rear axle could then potentially also be relocated into some of the space gained? The front control arms are too short and probably will not currently allow for much raising of the suspension or larger tyres - their arcs of travel are surely too limited. The vehicle should simply be raised higher from the off - from the factory. All pictures and video clips I've seen give an impression that it is visibly too low for purpose. Apologies for all the negatives when in actual fact there are very many positives and well done Ineos, for making the vehicles available before release for potential user's comments. Actions you now take from these comments and other knowledgeable 4x4 enthusiasts and 4x Overlanders will define the future viability and sale-ability of the Grenadier. These will be your best critics and your best long term friends and fans.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the Ineos Grenadier.
Very interesting to hear an opinion of an experienced 4x4 driver from Australia 👍
I think Ineos is producing their first generation cars for the European market.
Here in Europe we do not have to take 260 liters of fuel for a trip 😉
The stock tires and steel (👍!) rims will do most of the normal (utility) offroading here.
For me , the biggest problems are the ICE engines.
Here in the Netherlands, where I live, we pay skyhigh taxes for cars with high CO2 output.
A normal Landcruiser of Defender with ICE cost here about 130.000 euros.
For that reason, only electric or fuel cell engines will be sold here in the near future.
ICE engines are soon history in Europe.
I own two Pajeros , first gen. 2500 diesel an second gen. 3500 petrol, and like them very much, and will keep them as oldtimers ( bought them new (!) in 1990 and 1999 ), very reliable cars.
My next new car could be an Ineos Grenadier.........but only if they give it an electric engine !
I like the utiliy character of the Ineos 👍
Almost all other 4x4 cars , including the Landcruiser are here in Europe "luxury SUVs" standing on low profile street tires.......
Great observations and critique. Let's hope the Grenadier continues to evolve!
I hope so too!
The most important question is will it leak like a defender or have they sealed it like a Toyota?
Let's hope they can seal the airbox better than Toyota 🤣🤣
Vanity project - technology moves on
The one thing I keep seeing in all of the videos of the Ineos is that the cooling pack is extended below the front bumper and looks prown to being clogged with mud or damaged while off road.
Really good honest viewpoints.. A little too much hoping it will be a winner, but your point on the rear seat battery etc. is located was very revealing....Water is a constant in real 4x4 , and not having to consider intrusion. Lots of work to do on this super price idea.
Great review Stephen, I’m heading to Berrima on Saturday and can’t wait to go for a spin. I’m sure if sales are strong enough the aftermarket boys will come up with solutions for all your concerns.
yea I’m keen to see as I think there are a few engineering / planing shortcomings. Hope they haven’t got them self in a corner with the design. I think whole floor should have been a little higher to allow more room underneath. I hope I’m wrong though and there will be some viable practical solutions.
I also attended one these days and asked a similar question about rear bashplate and the Ineos guy said if it was him that he would remove the East/West muffler for a smaller Nth/Sth muffler opening up the area for LR fuel tank.
My other concern is the Transmission cooler is tucked right behind the LHS front bumper section which is prone to clogging from mud, etc and also open to possible damage.
Looking purely from a touring point of view I like it but fuel range is a concern but I’m hopeful by the time I can afford one most things should have been sorted out
yep 100% mate I thought the same with the fuel tank not sure you get more than 40-50 l there though.
In terms of fuel capacity I guess adding a second tank as an option would be a good plan - not everyone is going to need that much fuel but it would be good to have a factory fitted extra fuel tank for those that need it.
yep little space for it though without re-arranging rear exhaust system
Great offroad/overland-focused review with lots of good consideration points! In general, it seems like too much of a compromise vehicle (at least at this stage of development), given the stated intent to make a dedicated, "old school" 4x4. But they are also not shy about stating that vehicle design/building is not their forte, so hopefully they will take feedback like yours into account going forward. That said, in the end, it will ultimately come down to who their real customer will be. If their average buyer will do little more than the occasional dirt road, it wouldn't make sense to design it with long travel suspension and 35s. One final note - your last segment has some excellent footage of the suspension working! Maybe you could bring it up into the discussion about that earlier in the video? Unlike big name manufacturers, they haven't set up their test areas just inside the limits, so you can see by the slight spin of the front left tire just how much droop you get there. The rear seems to stuff quite nicely, but the articulation seems to be on par with competing vehicles for the most part. Thanks again for the effort to put this together!
I think the test track is just one that was available and has been designed for other vehicles, personally, I think the suspension travel for a coil-sprung solid axle vehicle is below average, I actually did a comparison of two images of a Jeep Cherokee and an Ineos in a similar position with front drivers wheel in the air and the IFS Cherokee seems to have very similar wheel travel. I would have thought the Ineos with solid axles and supposedly long-travel suspension would be way better than an IFS Jeep.
Now that the Grenadier is on sale I'd love to see a comparison between one of them and a base-spec new Defender. Although LR aren't actually selling base-spec cars at the moment so maybe that's why such an obvious side-by-side test doesn't seem to have been done yet.
This is a different kind of review from the others for sure.
One has to applaud for Ineos for setting up a new company to manufacture vehicles for the market segment which other manufacturers have been vacating. Given that this is their first vehicle there are bound to be some rough edges.
All vehicles are compromises and none of them is perfect. The import of Stefan's criticisms depends on what you expect from the vehicle (and my usage is overland trips using roads and tracks, however rough, used by the locals). Taking his points in no particular order.
1. Battery position. The Defender always had under seat batteries but no fuses or electronics down there and that was fine. Clearly the Grenadier would benefit from a waterproof battery box because they have other electrical bits and pieces there too. However the alternative is to place everything in the hot engine bay where things get cooked, shortening the service life. Is that really any better?
2. Underbody clearance. Yup it would benefit from a good tidy up and suspension lift / larger tyres. Not a deal breaker as I see it. Many owners would do the suspension upgrade irrespective. I probably wouldn't because this is already a very competent vehicle for general overlanding.
3. Fuel range. Yes if you are going to do the Canning Stock Route you need to drive a small fuel tanker like Stefan's. For regular overlanders a good rule of thumb is to have an ultimate range of 1000km (and you plan on 800km working range) for the terrain you encounter. Ineos should aim for that IMO.
4. Internal load space. If you are travelling as a couple and find the load space is obstructed because the back seats don't down fold down neatly it will be very annoying. Also the wheel arches need to be squared off so that storage boxes can be stacked there. For me a three door vehicle with a massive load compartment would be great and would open the option of sleeping inside the vehicle.
My take is that the vehicle currently scores 7/10 and if Ineos is a listening company they will get the Grenadier to 9/10.
Thanks for the honest review.
Definitely a let down underneath the car,clearances,fuel storage,but with you,I hope they address some of the issues you’ve mentioned 🙂
Refreshing to see a critical objective review of the Grenadier prototype which seems ok but expensive. I don’t think Ineos were planning on a full all out rock crawling overland ping Aussie or SA type 4wd. It’s likely the UK green lanes and towing the horse box is perhaps more aligned to the design original concept.
B6 comparison my 2011 Toyota FJ Cruiser is fun to drive, doesn’t have a single rattle or squeak, still turns heads, drawing admiring comments and can go almost anywhere (and get back - Toyota Hino reliability).
I never expected it to replace my Rock Crawler but it was supposed to be a Defender replacement while not perfect and reasonably unreliable it was a modifier's dream and you could modify it to whatever you needed it to be. Missing that with the Grenadier
The only review worth listening to. Agree with every word.
Let's hope they sort these issues out.
My biggest concern is serviceability and parts availability in this very remote country.
It has nothing on my cruiser. And at the prices they are asking it would be very hard to swap for a Grenadier.
Thanks Stefan
Very cool 👌 I've been waiting for a decent review of the grenadier! Well done Stef 👍
thank you
I was looking at getting one of these to replace my FJ Cruiser when they come to the states. My FJ isn't a trail runner - but living in the climate I do I see snow fairly regularly and often I go to parts of the state where there are no paved roads - only forest/logging roads. But when I look at all of the low hanging fruit on this thing compared to my H1, it really makes me hope that its better tucked up in there. The great thing about the H1 is that there's nothing underneath lower than the front bumper (except the control arms of course) so you know that if you clear an obstacle under your front bumper - as long as you keep it right down the middle you'll be right as rain. Huge benefit IMO and having pumpkins drag links hanging around... ooof.
Shame it's not being built in the UK 😟 well done Mr Radcliff
Hi Stephan - Excellent , thorough 4wd'ers review mate ! Nice to see someone getting under the truck :) Well done. Hopefully the guys designing this vehicle will continue building it along the lines of a good modifyable rig... It would be refreshing as we are rapidly running out of vehicles designed for purpose.
Fingers crossed!
Seems crazy to have developed a purpose built off roader but ended up with inadequate ground clearance .
One hopes that the Ineos Grenadier doesn't suffer the same fate as the Australian Army Land Rover 110 did when the suspension had to be raised to accommodate the Isuzu diesel engine. The raising of the suspension created huge instability and became a roll-over death trap, requiring it be speed limited and creating an Army project to design a roll-over protection system. This is not likely to be a risk with Ineos, but you never know.
I Had a deposit down one and went and checked out the INEOS here in Melbourne at Lardner park. I had the same thought in regards the the rear drop boxes and fuel tank as you . The ground clearance is not adequate for Australia especially 4wding rather than touring. I didn't think 35s would fit in the wheel arches.
Interior wise the front is nice but owning a y62 and having 2 kids its too small for a family. would be good for a couple though. Front seats and the overhead switch panel is fantastic.
Overall I'm in agreement with everything you said and suffice to say I asked for my $800 deposit back
I’m very interested in this truck and it will very likely to replace my Nissan Frontier when it comes to the US, the biggest down side of the truck is the engine, B58 is not known for the reliability, If the truck has ford ecoboost or Toyota engine then it will be perfect but still I like this truck even with a mediocre engine
I hope the Grenadier becomes a succes. As real offroad vehicles are getting less in production numbers, every new model is a win for the community. As LR deleted their offroad program stopping the Defender in 2016, expectations were high. And so the downfall with the SUV Defender was massive.
Thank you for your perspective and your honest words at the end.
I did not sign for one but can see me driving one. As i can not see me in the so called New Defender.
Just confirms how well engineered the GU Patrols and Landcruisers were, particularly the 105 series. Not being able to lay the seats down flat and batteries under the rear seats would shit me. I’ll stick to my 76 series
yes 100% and they weren't designed as supposed hardcore 4w drives. But are more capable and what I can see so far way more modifiable.
I drive a 100 series and boy do I wish the 105 series was available here.
@@jonathanwhiteacre7046 funny, I’m selling 105 series at the moment, $17k AUD
Very informative video about this so-called "Defender killer". I still like the Defender better, and with that I mean my 2002 Defender TD5 🙃🙃
Excellent review which asked the hard questions.
It's certainly an excellent first attempt to build a new Defender.
However, at this stage, I can't see the Ineos replacing my 2009 Defender 110, which has a 120 litre tank, rear airbags and six-speed manual.
But I hope they keep trying.
From what I have seen in other videos etc the ground clearance and suspension stood out like the proverbial ......those trailing arm points should be up in the frame rails and longer! The rest of underneath needs a total redesign to be less prone to damage and getting snagged on a rock etc and that under seat battery setup is just wrong on ten different levels.Good and fair run down on the most important pluses and minuses as I see. Hopefully they can get all this sorted and they should have a winner!!
100% agree, the choice of a 5k Red Winch but on the other-hand using less reliable Harrop E-Lockers is very questionable in my book. If a short person like ASPW has issues sitting in the drivers seat because of the foot rest I think for someone tall like me it would be very uncomfortable for longer trips.
I’ve got a 105 series with factory diff locks. I was hoping the 300 series would tempt me out of it but no dice. Now the Ineos looks like a let-down as well. Unless they address the shortcomings you’ve identified the upcoming g-wagon professional is the sole contender.
The upcoming G Professional will be no more than a design package, unfortunately. Also IFS.
Adjustable lower arms on the 5-link front end will help address any castor issues when lifting the suspension. The CV/rzeppa joints and be a PITA when lifting and I expect this will be a bit of an issue for some. I'm not sure I'd buy the first iteration of this truck but I reckon it will evolve quickly.
If you look at the 79 series LC they have a number of issues that need addressing too. Like you said nothing is perfect.
yes, 100%, the 79 is very modifiable though, but one reason I haven't owned one is that I don't want to change axle housings on a new vehicle to just run the same track width.
@@AlloffroadAu That was the dumbest thing Toyota has ever done.
I wish they went with a light commercial engine/driveline (ie; Isuzu, Iveco etc) over the BMW/ZF combo.
The suspension design is very similar to the G-Wagen (W461) which is no surprise given Magna Steyr's involvement. The G Professional does not have outstanding wheel travel given that it is all coils (3 lockers will help that).
I am not a fan of the battery/ECU location - from a water issue and also accessibility (would have been better under the cubby locker in the centre console for the ECU).
Extra fuel tanks are going to be an issue (as is the case with the G-wagen, although the aftermarket have addressed some of these issues) but you won't be getting 180ltrs. Jerry's are going to be required (roof loads of 150kgs, I believe). The petrol does appear to have some vacant space underneath as the AdBlue tank is not required.
yea hate carrying fuel on the roof but agree can’t see how they fit 180l in I recon 140l tops
@@AlloffroadAu Hoping for 150L at lest from the aftermarket.
@@danielpope3579 More W461 than W463.
Not sure if anyone's mentioned it. But the fuse and battery box under rear seat is sealed, according to Mark that you would have met on the Glenworth valley drive.
Aside: Being sealed it may cause issues with standard lead acid batteries. But stock batteries are AGM which are recombinant.
yea wasn't mentioned to me and wasn't sealed when we saw it, while I'm not a big fan of under-seat location it has one great advantage it would lend itself perfectly for a Lithium starter and aux set up, especially if you could fit two 100ah LiFePo4 underneath.
looks like it would be a good candidate for portals on the diffs
yes Portals on an Ineos would make a lot of difference
Best review I've seen yet. Critical, but fair. Too many low hanging components for my liking. Battery/fuse location compromises rear seating height and ability to have a flat load space with seats folded. Additional fuel capacity a big issue for Australian touring.
thank you.
I’m overall a fan of the grenadier. I agree that it sits too low and would benefit from a slight lift and larger tires. The sloped rear fender covers are odd. Making them flat would help with storage systems. The drivetrain sounds overall good but that shifter is out of place. It’s electronic and has no mechanical connection to the transmission. That needs to be replaced with a standard shift lever. They’ve come a long way in a short time however. I feel these prototype rides will help improve the final product and we still see some changes.
I really hope so, yes the shifter I didn't even want to mention it's completely out of place.
Best review ever, well untill we actually see a production run car rather than beta. It does seem to have a few issues. The battery and fuse box are crazy unless they are sealed in a waterproof box.
The vehicle will do everything a farmer in the UK will want in its present suspension set up. Those who want some extreme off roading will convert it just like every defender or Suzuki you see. But it does need bigger tyres and slightly more ground clearance as standard.
Fuel tank I imagine can be an issue in deserts and outback but in the UK not an issue and the upper windows might be hot in aus but will be great in the UK.
My biggest gripe is the adblue engine. I get it on the emmisions being forced on us in Europe but should be an option for no ad blue elsewhere. Don't get me started on the price it started out as 30 to 35k now reports of over 50. I suspect it's transformed from a wish list and great concept to a compromise to suit euroarea silly rules. Shame as it had great potential. Now built in France I won't be buying one as a matter of principle.
yes I would agree at it's the current stage it will be a good on-road light tourer and farm vehicle for the UK, it's to a Defender replacement or hardcore 4wd. While I'm sure aftermarket will come up with some solutions looking at the overall design it's not as modifying friendly as the car it aimed to replace (Defender) or any of the other older style 4wd like Landcruisers 80, 105 etc.
I think it can be modified pretty well I know there are already companies offering suspension tweaks and raising kits. But at 50k I suspect you are better with a 30 year old defender and all the cool kits you can buy.
Personal peeve - like most European cars, the rear taillights, brake lights, indicators etc are very small. Covered in dust, how visible will they be?
Forward visibility immediately ahead of the vehicle not as good as Defender. Maybe bonnet is longer to accommodate straight 6.
Enjoyed your review.
What a brilliant review, honest & informative.
Thanks for the Video. Sorry - i do not read all 449 comments. My comments are from South Africa - I do nothing than travel Africa. 1. Good comment on gauges. Silly no VDO gauges in direct view. 2. Electronics and batteries under seat. silly idea.3. The front and rear bash plates are too low - I realised already on first footage of coverage.4. Fuel tanks too small for real bundu travel. ---- Sorry, I will stick to my defender 110 TDI. My County has 2 seats and a level space right to the rear door with plenty of storage under! But well investigated. Thanks. Wilfried from South Africa
what I would like to see is portal axles and a 10 speed transmission with 1-4 for low ratio off road driving and 5-10 for high ratio on road driving. no stopping to go between high and low.
yea VW tried that with the Amarok, works quite well in forward but without a low range TC you have only one high range gear in revers which can cause big issues.
@@AlloffroadAu would be nice to have a separate reverse selector to have all gears in reverse somewhat like the unimog or have the reverse ratio too match the ratio of first gear.