What standard car (with genuine options by the manufacturer) would fit your liking?? You are criticizing the only brand that wants to build a real 4x4.
I live in BC, Canada where I live play and work in the back country. I agree with a lot of your comments but need to say that this vehicle is not designed and marketed as a 'rock crawler' therefore should not be judged too harshly against some of your personal trucks that you do or have owned and modified. There is a huge market for 4Wd 'Sports Utility Vehicles' here and most are not designed with purely driving in dried river beds, rocky canyons, fording creeks etc. To launch a new vehicle into an already saturated market and to make it a profitable venture it should appeal to the mass market. Many 4WD enthusiasts here are very competent at rebuilding old trucks and SUV's to play in the dirt, I have friends who are passionate about this. These enthusiasts probably spend 1/3 to 1/2 as much as it would cost to buy the Grenadier. Also we need to look at the environment in which the Ineos Grenadier will be marketed, true some will likely be bought by those who work and live remotely in the Outback or harsh Northern environments...but a lot will not, they will be bought for the rugged aesthetic that will appeal to the urban 'wannabee' outdoor types, the hockey mums and those who want to be seen as driving something different, that might say something about their personal identity needs. Originating in the "Land Rover' community of the UK, I hoped that Ineos might have tried to create a basic, almost minimalistic, vehicle that would be very durable, easy to work on, very affordable and that could be customized by the consumer at a later date to raise its specification and adaptive to individual needs. I think the entry price point is too high and the 'full option' cost puts it into the league of the increasingly popular Range Rovers, high specification Jeep Wranglers and high performance, 'off road' pick up trucks such as the Ford F150 Raptor and the Dodge Ram TRX...I can't see Ineos gaining a market when competing with any of these vehicles. Thanks for a well executed review.
Hm, I never ever compared the Grenadier against my Rock Crawler my comparison is mainly against my 105 Landcruiser, which is precisely in the same vehicle category and a touring vehicle. I think the main issue is that Ineos built a platform that has quite a few shortcomings and shows that no 4wd experts were involved in the design. It's just not as customisable as many other 4wd on the market at present. I do entirely agree with your statement, "they will be bought for the rugged aesthetic that will appeal to the urban 'wannabee' outdoor types, the hockey mums and those who want to be seen as driving something different, that might say something about their personal identity needs. " and I think it's perfectly suited for that market. You have many other cars already in this market segment, and Ineos just adds another option to that segment, it is not the class-leading purposes build 4x4 it was advertised to be, though.
Awesome and thorough review! I agree with everything you have said in this video 100%. Despite the grenadiers shortcomings, I am still happy that they have built a dual solid axle vehicle that can hopefully be revised in the future to eliminate its current issues that you highlighted in the video. This may make it a legendary four wheel drive that can be used as a tourer and for tough tracks. Keep up the great content.
Thanks mate, I'm also keen to see what I think in a year after the Grenadier is on the market and used in public for some time. I'm also keen on what Ineos comes up with in the future after all this is only version 1.
I put my deposit down. I did a test drive. It did well. One small thing that got me, the backseat don't fall flat. I have a 1976 international scout ii and it has that capability. I just traded my 2012 Range Rover Sport with 91,000 for a 2001 Landcruiser!
These are important points to keep in mind while purchasing it. I will not baby it when it’s arrive, it will be driven to extremes until something prevails, common sense say drive what it is intent to but with your skills and preparations to what ever it, full passengers, towing and pulling, off road and over-landing. But it’s good looking on road and comfy also. I have fully loaded it with options with intent to use it. It is very interesting new Off road company car with future cars on the way. For sure the Pick up will definitely in my radar and am selling my current pickup when the Ineos is out. Then I can wait until the new pickup comes in the future while enjoying the Grenadier in the mean time.
Ok you Grenadier fans starting on the 9/9 for 3-days is the 4WD and camping show at eastern creek Sydney on display will be the production model going through its paces. As the author of this article pointed out the pedals were offset on a protype to the steering wheel. If someone from Sydney is going to this event can you please note the seating position and report what you found this would be a great help for buyers.
@@AlloffroadAu You little beauty I wrote a letter to Grenadier after your first article I received a receipt with still no reply.You will be able to sit in it. Look forward to your reply as will many others no doubt.
@@AlloffroadAu Ok its Sunday you have been to the exhibition please what is the verdict on driver position to pedals I know the problem was the position of the exhaust for right hand drivers. talk to me.
Great video and review. I've never thought of it as a tourer in Australia. You touched on my reason that it wouldn't make a good tourer, that being spares and service. As you have previously found out with your 110 Landrover. This vehicle will be an even lower production and ownership, so outback mechanics would rarely see one and wouldn't be keen to work on it. For remote touring in Australia you have to go with Toyota for genuine and after market parts and service, followed closely by Nissan. The best prepared vehicle will still have some kind of problem when touring. The last thing anyone wants is to have a lengthy wait for parts, or an expensive recovery and transport many thousands of kilometers to a service agent. Great review as always.
agree mate and one reason why I switched from the "better looking" Defender to the more reliable and serviceable Landcruiser and after over 3 years touring in the Landcruiser I can say it was 100% the right decision (as much as I liked many aspects of the Defender).
yep in remote communities every other 4wd we have seen was a 80 or 100 series not to mention pretty much every farmer has at least one 70 series somewhere on the farm.
@@AlloffroadAu we were 120km southeast of Carnarvon WA when we had a wheel bearing go without warning in the old 80series. It damaged the spindle. We limped it back to Carnarvon, went into Repco and they had all the parts in stock. I fixed it in the carpark out the front on Repco. We had waited 3 day's for the same parts in western Sydney after smashing a CV and damaging the spindle before we left on the trip. I doubt we would of got parts for any other model without waiting.
@@waynelemmon3007 I guess that many spare parts would have to be ordered if possible before touring, which would significantly increase the cost of initial cost of ownership, possibly delaying some of the nessasary modifications, delaying a persons touring schedule.
Thanks for your honest opinion based on your knowledge. Highly appreciated. - With your view in mind, in this video, you showed me why I (on a limited budget) didn’t wait for the Grenadier but bought a Jimny. That said, IF I was one of the guys WITH the money, I still think I would go for the Grenadier. Because for the ones with that amount of cash cash isn’t a problem. From my point of view, your most interesting point is the locker/-s. Grenadier went for an electrical one, seriously…!!??? Not mentioning the winch option nor the LHD seating position with the weird footwell as my view would ban me from TH-cam… Regarding 3rd party accessory suppliers … Give the manufacturers a chance. Look at the Gen4 Jimny. It was released in 2018. Today the marked is flooded with extras for it. I expect the same for the Grenadier in a few years time, ie be patient. 😉
A lack of 3rd party options is definitely something to consider seriously. I bought a 6x6 land rover perentie, and now Im trying to add extra fuel tank, upgrade the brakes for better performance etc - cannot really buy anything off the shelf, so it is much harder to research and costs go through the roof. Good video, thanks
So I like it, I have driven one but it’s 50k dearer than a new jeep rubicon, (NZD) and it’s no better off-road and lacks things like radar cruise and sway bar disconnect.
I’m in total agreement about the RHD seating position issue while I also, from experience, do not like the very exposed steering damper. I like the Grenadier a lot but will wait to see how things develope going forward with real exposure and reviews.
Thank you sir! Price point is going to be the main factor for real world off roaders. A farmer in the uk is no where near a person needing a dependable, fixable on the go , rugged and reliable vehicle for transport and living.
yes I cant see many engineering limitations as a farm truck (beside price and reliability, parts availability etc) as a proper off road 4wd it has many shortcomings for a supposedly purpose build 4wd.
@@AlloffroadAu I still see them coming out with an offroader, that will fulfill all your needs as well as those of the people living in organic lands. Once they have established for a few years to cover initial costs, they will come out with affordable and dependable variants...as you mentioned ! Its all about moneys trickling down .
After watching your informative video, I will only look at the 2nd gen version . The death wobble really got me thinking? Whilst a good few of your points regarding range/ tire up sizing and suspension upgrades won't be an issue for most " Grey nomad " users-the final package price is getting up there for items that should be standard fitment-the difflocks for example. Great insights, thou 🤔👍🙂
Thank you Stefan for an in-depth analysis, I am not sure if it will be able to safely negotiate the sand dunes in the Middle East due to it only it’s weight, break over angle but mainly it’s front & rear end ground clearances. Middle East is a big market for SUV’S and the terrain is mostly soft sand, I wonder if it will be able to compete with the likes of LC, Jeep Wrangler, Nissan Patrols that have rules the roost and New Bronco that seems equally capable. Let’s wait & watch how the production version comes out & then we will be in a better position to pass a verdict.
I think stock it can not compete, lets see how easy it is to put 35" underneath and if the other components are up for it. I will when I get my hand on a final car.
100% agree.....they have designed an off road vehicle without addressing the basics for going off road. They needed to talk to off road companies and enthusiasts to get to the core ingredients of what makes an off road vehicle excel in all areas!
Thanks a lot, the most deeply analyzed video about IG I've already found. Despite the fact I live in EU I totally agree with you. "Perfect" off-roader have to have potential to be modified heavily. Most manufacturers state the factory spec is enough. And in most cases they are right. Europe is NOT a serious off-road market but in many countries across Asia and Africa I saw thousands of local driven 4x4s and 99% was more or less in stock version when it comes to suspension and wheels. But there is a real off-road community not only in Australia, USA, SA or even South America. In Europe prices of the most proven and wanted 4x4s skyrocketed in recent years (like in Oz) and one have to pay 25-40k EUR for off-roader like not rusted through Patrol Y61, LC J80 with half a million kms, or even more for top-shaped Defender. In Poland where I live there is company making plug-and-play frames! for all Y60/61 Patrols (one can register them in PL). It shows hunger for real 4x4s. I think you're right, Ineos made "European" mistake stating that the stock would be enough. But it is not. This is why Wrangler is so much popular across Europe and keep value for years. The same with my FJ Cruiser despite its IFS. I am oriented towards overlanding more but most people in Europe using its 4x4s locally in some off-road rallys for example. And there is no chance to follow modified Patrol on its 35"s or 37"s in deep mud in a stock off-roader. So fitting 33"s is a absolute minimum for all those who think seriously of doing off-road in Poland and in many other eastern European countries where digging mud is a serious thing. :) Cheers.
“Despite it’s IFS”? IFS is the way to go but combined with IRS. Independent all round. No solid axles and no leaf springs. Removes the low hanging “diff pumpkin” that way also.
Very good review Stefan, and I agree with everything you pointed out. The footwell design looks like it could be a disaster. The speedo is in a rediculous position in my opinion. It will be interesting to see what people think of driving the vehicle long distance on the bitumen, as it is a long way between places of interest. It might be ok driving around the Lord Muck's farm in England, but it will be interesting to see how it handles Oz.
yep, very different sitting in one for a short test drive real ergonomic issues you will find out after a few hours behind the wheel. A 10k round trip is not unusually in OZ and I dare to say it would be quite uncomfortable
@@AlloffroadAu I doubt they design for eg Aus. It's too small a market to warrant such attention. Realistically few people will ever take their 4wds into places so extreme or if they do they will hopefully do as Stefan has...build a vehicle to suit that purpose...which of course for most folk costs a fortune. Eg we're 30k plus into a GQ Patrol built for such extreme use.
I think it’s going to be great, it is a car that far outweighs the components others come with as a starting point. It is purpose built out of the showroom. The car has not even left a show room, I’m not sure how one draws these opinions.
by having many years experience in driving and building 4wd’s, going to the drive day and looking at the plethora of information about the car which is available I can draw pretty accurate conclusions what the car will be like
@@AlloffroadAu likewise having a number of years of experience building 4wds and being involved in the industry, I think the Ineos executes very well on on its criteria, the level of expertise involved in the engineering of this comes from some pretty historic success. A lot of what you are saying is based on your own personal preferences which is fine but I don’t think it is gospel, I guess for yourself it’s the beauty of TH-cam
Interesting review and there is some merit in your comments...but one thing you said that i do totally agree with, is that no vehicle can be everything to all people. I note, by the vehicles you appear to have owned of late (ie you driving in the video), your idea of off-road driving is a little more demanding than many and would have coloured your opinion of what an ideal four wheel drive needs to be and I don't believe any out of the box vehicles would come anywhere near to perfection for you unless its a rock crawling beast sitting on 35s. I like the idea of an alternative to the current crop of vehicles, none of which float my boat. Also the decision to have these exempt from LCT just reduced the cost which is nice. didn't
my vehicle set up is quite common in Australia and a purpose build 4wd should be as easily modifiable to this standards as for example a 105 Landcruiser, a 70 Series or Patrol.
This is going to be perfect for me. I don't like exceeding manufacturer specs. I am not over the top offroader but the place I live in requires 4x4 (Mongolia) This one is modern enough, yet live axles and mid range engine and with most if not all of modern amenities and also does 70 series does
Great video, when I went to look at the grenadier I was suprised the steering dampener/stabaliser was right in front of the diff pumpkin, which seems it would be very susceptible to damage. And we were told the stud pattern wasnt shared with any other car
didn't know about the stud pattern definitely something to consider as it may be hard getting replacement wheels in the bush, I definitely agree with steering damper position but I heard it is moved but we shall see in final version.
For me… i prefer diesel for my 4WD… Ad Blu is a massive deal breaker. Which is a shame, because i can live/work with all the other flaws except for that. Would purchase one today, instead of hunting for the perfect defender 110…
Just goes the show how well engineered older off road vehicles are despite not having modern design software. All valid points on the Grenadier, the only parts I do like about it are the looks and the powertrain.
Another very genuine, thoughtful and entirely fair opinion piece Stefan. Ineos certainly could and should be doing a better job on providing essential information such as gear ratios and addressing all the other issues such as the footwell, underbody clearance and the other matters you have raised. These are all entirely fair points and concerns. I did put in a Grenadier reservation last year (based on buying a dual cab) and am still hoping it will be worth doing so when that variant is released but Ineos’ stonewalling on these important matters is really a black mark against them at this point. It does irritate me that they only brought one vehicle to Australia and this was effectively a show pony but their declared prime market is mostly miners, farmers, tour operators ie commercial or workhorse sales! They should have brought 10 vehicles here, put them to sustained hard work, and forgotten about testing in most of Europe… Which market are they really targeting?
portals, 2" lift and custom control arms borderline nessessary to get this things belly off the ground. That said, with those installed I bet the whole thing would still have a really low center of gravity compared to contemparies with similar mods
low center of gravity is good but would be great if return to center in steering works or you had room to upgrade fuel tank to a more reasonable size for countries like australia.
How come would spec up FieldMaster and not TrialMaster? As that comes with diff locks. Also think Field comes with leather seats which you said it didn't, not sure if got things muddled up... or I did :)
While I agree with all of your observations mechanically, the looks are VERY important in this case. They copied the old Defender since LR stupidly abandoned its icon. The owner of Ineos copied it for that reason, PRIMARILY. He wanted to make what LR should have made instead of the over-engineered design that they did. LR even lost its case against Ineos for copying their abandoned design. I hope they work out the shortcomings, and beat LR on principle, for turning their back on a world renowned icon. I think they're doing OK for their first vehicle design, so far. Hopefully your assessments will be heard and addressed!
Mine was delayed until Christmas and then Jan…we’ll see but am hopeful Not sure the pricing is anything other than post Covid inflationary pressure and small run production
I've just specced a grenadier in comparison to a Jeep Wrangler JLU Rubicon. Regarding the pricing, the Grenadier is way cheaper, while being better equipped, here in Germany. We are talking about 15% list price - the Jeep would have some noticeable dealer discounts, tho. In the end they'd be pretty evenly priced. At this point both cars would need several after market parts - I don't really see them being different in pricing for any of the cars, besides not having a lot of (any) options for the Grenadier atm. The Grenadier also offers more offroad options from the factory, which is a huge pro-argument, considering our regulations here in Europe.
difference with the Jeep is that all shortcomings are well known and you have a infinite amount of aftermarket parts available and can build a Jeep to whatever you like it to be. Not so with a Grenadier.
I don’t want to sound like I’m sticking up for them because I think the BMW engine was a bad choice to begin with and if they are gonna play with the big boys they gotta compete with them. However, I think the ford F series has a wobble here and there, I think Jeeps get a wobble here and there heck my 4 runner wouldn’t get a death wobble but it would wobble, my Tacoma would wobble. So I don’t think a wobble is acceptable but I also think there is going to be at times situations where that happens. As for the ergonomics, I can agree that would be a weird driving position. As for the bits and pieces as well as accessories, to be honest, I’m not looking to modify mine if I was getting one. I don’t need a rock crawler and where I live gas stations are fairly plentiful. I think for someone like me that lives in a somewhat rural area and likes to travel to somewhat rural areas this thing is overkill for what I’d use it for. I think it’s the price that would be quite off putting. I mean for what most people would use a 4x4 for a 4Runner or heck even a Subaru AWD would get most people where they want to go and probably be more comfortable, fuel efficient and easy to maintain as well as much cheaper. So I respect them for making the attempt, BUT I think with much more luxurious options on the market they’ll have a tough time finding a buyer. Something like the 4Runner is most definitely going to be more reliable and better to live with day to day for half the price. I just don’t know. Time will tell. If the sun and stars align I wouldn’t mind buying one if they release it in the near future but with how finances are going who know how the economy will be when they finally get them out to customers. Their potential middle class base might be broke by the time the actually release it or interest rates could be too high to make financing it an option.
yep would agree your usage case is what it was built for and for Europe that may be unique here in Australia, you could find at least another ten 4wd who could accomplish the same though and quite a bit cheaper in most cases.
@@AlloffroadAu thank you for Your reply. I hope you get to test it a bit more. I dunno depending on the price I don’t know if it will be priced right a 4 Runner fits my needs and a 4Runner seems to be half the price. Sometimes I tow/haul, sometimes I’m on slightly muddy roads, sometimes I go with friends to go shooting in slightly remote areas. So I think the grenadier might be too much, time will tell
Your prices are a little off. Why have you listed a base 300 at 89k (they start at 98k and come with basically nothing) against the top of the range Grenadier? The Grenadier starts at 85k, you would need to get the top of the range 95k model with 20 grand worth of extras to reach your price of 126k. Also good luck getting a new defender 110 at anywhere near 100k, maybe a 90 but that's not even in the same category. Four door jeep Rubicon's also start at closer to 90k and you have to have a 6 cyl petrol. Then there is the 79GXL....... I assume you mean 4 door to keep in the same category? You cant even get one at retail without waiting 2 years, the realistic price for a 2022 GXL 79 is 120k. You make some fair points but that chart is a little misleading towards the Ineos that fairly fits in the middle of the prices and actually at the bottom of the wagon prices with a lot of kit from factory.
the prices are rough prices found online mate I priced it up and the grenadier would cost me 150K I build a dream 70 series for that www.carsguide.com.au/toyota/landcruiser-70-series/price/2022
Good video. Thank you for sharing thoughts. I'm wondering if Ineous pick up will have additional room for extra fuel tank. Also engine from BMW, I am not sure B58 can survive 1million km, but I am sure it can't compete with Toyota's HZ/HD (my personal opinion).
I only agree with parts of this review. You have approached this with an extremely picky/fussy eye. Long range fuel tanks? They're a dumb upgrade for any vehicle! You add the weight of the bigger tanks, which you carry around at all times - even in the city - and then you fill the extra tank with fuel, which adds weight and then you use more fuel to drag around....more fuel. Just leave the factory tank in your 4x4 and when you go out bush chuck a few plastic 20L jerry cans on the roof rack or in the back. Why drive around with all the extra weight? Diff locks - who cares if they're electric or air. There's thousands of people out there running E-lockers without any problems....and the so-called unlocking issue when you stop is over-blown. There's usually enough bind/pre-load in the driveline to keep them locked. Get over it. Plenty of people have issues with air lockers leaking too. The cramped footwell? 100% agree on this one. I'm 191cms and find many cars cramped on long trips. Having my left leg cramped could be a deal breaker for me. I think it was a serious design oversight. Aftermarket parts & upgrades? Don't worry the aftermarket will be all over these things in due time, They've barely been on the market for more than 6 minutes. Give it time, there will be lots of good stuff to upgrade them with. Every other 4x4 has had a 40 year head start. Price? Yep. That's a tough one. This was supposed to be around $80k when they first started marketing it. The actually pricing is really disappointing. There's a really important point you've missed when you criticise the first generation Grenadier. This vehicle is about one man sticking his finger up at the rubbish we're supposed to keep buying every time a car company wants to sell more "SUV"'s to the soccer Mum's. This product is so awesome because of what it represents - Old mate Ratcliffe has literally put his money where his mouth is and said enough is enough. I want a modern Defender, I don't want a useless soft roader. I mean they are a chemicals company having a crack at building a 4x4 and look how far they've pushed the envelope! Toyota and Nissan and Land Rover look like a bunch of utter pussies for delivering each new model softer and more tech-laden than the next. Will the first gen Grenadier have sone short-comings?? Of course it will. Should it be whole-heartedly supported by anyone than can? Absolutely. This is the kind of vehicle building approach we should all support. It's a really good attempt at a no bullshit product. They've attempted to do what we always wanted a manufacturer to do. I think your review is a too picky and I think you should be honest about the tens of thousands you've spent on your vehicles to get them "up to spec".
My 1997 2.8i Defender has 220L fuel on board, (75 L main tank, and aftermarket tanks 45 L in right rear corner and 2x50 L below each front seat with fill opening under driver seat (still 310mm ground clearance) each with pump to main tank operated from dashboard. And 2 jerrycans on roofcarier and another 2 jerrycans in frame hanging off rear spare wheel. Totalling 300 liter, good for 2000km gravel/tar or 1000km serious sand/dunes/rocky surface. And had 2 off 45 L aftermarket water tanks (one in left rear corner and one inside under rear seats spanning the car's width. And does the Grenadier have space for a 120Ah second battery (with BMS) to keep a fridge going for a week, like the Defender has under the passenger seat? Until the Grenadier has similar capacities, it is not suited for Australia, Africa, US or any other wide area remote conditions.
The engineers never made a 4x4? It was developed by Magna Steyr Austria, they develop and build also the Mercedes G-Wagon, Jeep Grand Cherokee … also afaik it is part supplier for UNIMOG
Thank you very much for this educational and real review. I'd appreciate if we can know your thoughts on the Ram power Wagon. They are sold in the US as a off-road truck. Ram is famous for electrical issues, but I'd like to know your opinion.
I could not give much of an opinion as RAM are very rare in Australia, the 250 is probably a great tow vehicle but they are very big and probably not that well suited to really go off road in oz. Reliability and Serviceability would also be a big problem here.
@@AlloffroadAu Thank you for your reply and awesome review of the Ineos!!! The 250 is a better truck!! The great thing about Ford here in the US is that every little town has a Ford dealership!
Well, your review feels a little like an attack piece. From online reviews and without having driven it myself, I submit that it looks like the most promising 4x4 coming down the pike. It starts with a true ladder frame and real 4x4 system. It will have a dependable drivetrain. The footwell appears Jeep like and the pedals as if on the left side for Americans. The dry box beneath the rear seat is a great idea. The only flaw may be the 90 liter tank but that can be remedied quickly with stacking tanks attached to rear and sides to add fuels along the trip. The point is, this appears to offer a bigger ,utility 4x4 where other manufacturers seem only to be focused on car like comforts.
Interesting that anything sightly critical is an attack piece. There are plenty of reviews out there without highlighting any of the potential downsides so I’m doing that as I planed to purchase one so everything I mention is why at this stage I won’t purchase. Solid axle is good but an an independent suspension engineers for offroad would be an better option not for nothing have most comp trucks now also moved to independent. Independent has many advantages on and offroad if it’s designed for it see Ford Raptor for instance. There is no room for additional fuel tanks, there is no way to increase footwell space for RHD. It’s a vehicle with many compromises and on top of it unproved in regards to reliability and serviceability. It not a no brainer 4wd it will suit some and others not. Many other 4wd can deliver the same and often better in some ways with a proven track record.
I think the items you mentioned are important to “you” but not the masses. This is probably why he called you r review an attack piece. I do own several l Land Cruisers so I am a TLC guy, but let’s be honest, not many people are going to do all the high priced mods you mentioned to a brand new truck. They will to an older TLC. So this vehicle is not for “you”, as you are clearly a hard core off-road driver. For an American like myself who does weekend trail riding I don’t see any issues other than the high starting price. It seems as though it will be competitive to other similar vehicles in our market, ie the 200 series TLC. I run a 100 series myself. Thanks for you review.
I canceled my Ineos Grneadiar order, because it will take me make long time to get it , so I made order for (Tesla Y performance ) and I have get it in almost 6 months ,cheaper and faster electric car , and yet people who make order for the Grneadir did get nothing 🥹 tell now 😎
---- UPDATE September 2022 --------- I sat in the latest model, which according to Ineos, is pretty much done besides some small changes under the bonnet and cosmetic stuff. In my opinion, the seating position is bad for someone my size, while I sat in the back, two other people who were around my height jumped into the driver's seat and said exactly the same to their friends. If you are anywhere around 190cm, I strongly suggest sitting in one before buying. For me, it's definitely ruled out as a tourer as the seating position is nothing that you can modify or change. ----------------------- There are a few heated opinions here, and I do value all constructive feedback and will never delete such; however, become disrespectful, I will delete your comments. These are my opinions based on my experience and research. If you don't like to hear concerns or shortcomings, don't watch the video. If you create a purpose-built 4wd for enthusiasts and professionals and make it available as a ProtoType you will get more scrutiny from people who know what they are looking at and see shortcomings. In my opinion better to know possible shortcomings now than after spending 130k. What I mentioned does not concern or affect you? No problem, it seems to be the right car for you, and that is perfectly fine. I see this video as one part of the puzzle to making an informed purchase decision.
Your got too much experience to know what works and what doesn’t Spending over 100K is serious business Heaps appreciate the wisdom your sharing Keep ‘em coming!! 🤙
Absolute respect for your wisdom access points (WAPs) clear, reasoned analysis backed up with much experience n real world situations. People can either take them onboard or not - but the consumers need independent reviews like this to guide their timing on purchasing decisions. Thanks very much for sharing your incite and opinion.
This is a more balanced video than your first one. I think the confusion comes from you spending alot of time listing faults with a vehicle which is not really designed for your application. Your current over landing rig looks bad ass and i don't see how the IG would ever be better than that for your use. I think you summed it up when you said it was designed and built for Europe which it is and with that comes a lot of regulation and compromise. It might not be perfect but it will have it's niche for people who want reliable and robust in a compact package (alot of AUS/ US trucks are just too big for Europe) and who don't need 180litres of fuel capacity! Interesting what you say about the E lockers as i probably don't need them but people are saying to spec them for resale value as people will want them specced. Offset pedals suck so hopefully that is sorted somewhat. The over head switches are cool so probably worth a small compromise
@SCMTBCoach the Landcruiser 105 was also never designed as a long range tourer but it could be easily converted into one. A good purpose build 4wd provides a base where you can make out of it what you want and one of the main issues with the Grenadier is that it does not provide that platform. Is it a bad 4wd? I don't think so but time will tell, but it sure does not have the overwhelming distinguishable feature it was supposed to have as a purpose build 4wd. It has as many if not more pros and cons than many other 4wd on the market and you just need to see which ones you can better live with. Given it's a small volume vehicle at present you have actually way less options than with any other 4wd and Ineos has engineered the Grenadier in a bit of a cull de sac in regards to modifiability. Will it still suit people? Sure it will and I hope enough so we see an improved version 2 maybe with more input from people who actually 4wd.
@@AlloffroadAu I think the thing is could a vehicle as you want it have been created in 2022 and meat European regs? I am not an expert so i don't know but I think that anything that would have added weight was off the table as it is already heavy and has a gross vehicle limit of 3500kg (including payload)
As a long time CJ and Wrangler owner, my absolute love with the looks of the Grenadier has always been tinged with bit of…wariness. At this point I think I still want one, but you’ve definitely given me more to consider. Thank you!
@@timtim2949, between my original comment and now I have retired, so my current 4-door Wrangler is going to me my forever-car by necessity - I don’t think I’m going to be able to afford a Grenadier when if finally makes it to the States.
The Grenadier is a ground breaking vehicle in the history of 4 wheel drive vehicles, combining traditional, functional design with modernity in a very welcome way. I think your comments are all reasonable and accurate critiques of a first generation car company and specialty vehicle. as compared to your wish list. And once the company begins delivering vehicles to customers we will all see the collective real world experience here on youtube. The tough call is whether to buy one, knowing that future model years will only bring improvements in options [gas tank size?] and fit and finish. Look at Ford's pandemic influenced, flawed roll out of the Bronco with defective hard tops, and probably many other fit and finish issues to clean up. And that's by a traditional OEM. Regarding the Grenadier, what gives me a high degree of confidence in a successful roll out are the partners involved in the design and assembly, specifically Magna Steyr, the maker of the legendary G Wagon. [compare the door handles between the two vehicles😉] Also, consider that the Grenadier is being assembled at a former but very modern plant of Mercedes, with the same workforce, suggests a high level of competence and commitment to high quality construction. [The plant will still produce various small MBZ models, per press reports.] The reputation of all of these partners is at stake world wide. All of these factors instill a level of confidence that the vehicle will be reliable and of high quality from the beginning.
And one more comment - even though the there's obvious inspiration and motivation to continue the Defender lineage, this vehicle has more in common with the German G Wagon - design, technically, size and proportions, and production lineage.
hm I agree with many things you say I'm just not as confident that there will be future vehicles, In comparison to Ford, Ineos Car is a one-trick pony. I also don't think that any other manufacturers' reputation is on the line they just supply parts to a niche manufacturer, which is very common in the industry. My concern is that from what I have seen so far, Ineos does not have a team of people who really understand 4wd that is from development all through to their ground staff, who test and even market the vehicle. Mind you, I hope you are right, and future versions will improve on the shortcomings. If future models turn out better, I will more than happily agree that I'm wrong. If the Grenadier is still talked about a year after being in the customer's hand, I will also get my hand on a second-hand one and see what is possible and likely will be touring with one beforehand. I have no ill feelings towards Ineos or the car I just call it how I see it.
Excellent review. Absolutely spot on that you really don't want to be that "first customer" to buy one in Australia or Southern Africa and drive off into the wild blue yonder. My thoughts are to wait at least 5 years into production before seriously considering the Grenadier in Australia
Already been tested in Australia and deserts across the world, including Namibia in Africa, and as far away as Alaska, Iceland and Norway. The engine has been proven as one of the most reliable engines in the 330d and BMWX5 for more than 10 years and the transmission equally solid built by ZF. Any Bosch or BMW dealer will be able to service the vehicle.
the left steered cars most likely wont have the exhaust in the way. I like a few things about it. The one central roof panel 4x4 switch switches off all modern electronic controls at ones. There is a aux battery in the rear. Prewired outside light switches in the roof, so when camping/sleeping in the back, they are easy accessible. The grenadier reminds me on the early G class. Two roof windows 👍🏽 Alloy doors, the rest in steel, german made ladder frame and solid axles, compared to the Defender. You got to design a car like this for modern times first, that has to be understood. Look at the new Defender
You'd be nothing short of brave and deep pocketed to take a gamble on this. Thing could turn out to be a 160k lemon and we havent talked about its resale value yet.
Extremely informative video. Don't worry about the keyboard warriors, you are sharing your perspective based on your significant experiences and that will help a lot of people make their own decisions with their own criteria. One of the most useful videos I've seen yet. Keep up the great work.
Awesome work as usual Stef. Like you, I had high hopes on the Grenadier but have been left very short on the product being delivered. Unlike you, I thought the way this product was marketed, that it SHOULD have been offered off the forecourt with an option for 35's. 33's should surely be standard. Completely agree on the the short arm WAs, death wobble possibility. Actually agree on the lockers, the clearance, the limited fuel capacity, the footwell, the overhead controls, the winch option, gearing etc. I had the Grenadier on my interest list, and it will go back on that list if they look to local support from someone like yourself, perhaps with support from the local modifier suppliers - not formula 1 drivers, ice-cream van people, or rally drivers. But people who actually know 4wd. You've quoted two other 4wd specialists in this vid, and as it goes, that is three of four who are the only 4wd specialists in my TH-cam feed. Grenadier would find it hard doing better than bringing you three to the table. Just do it Grenadier. If you take it seriously, you will love the result.
A very honest video. I love the Genadier concept but as an Australian Outback/desert tourer, it will not make the grade. The current Troopcarrier runs rings around it for outback touring.
Good video. We are going to need to disagree on the necessity for 35s on a tourer though, I find 32-33 adequate. I'm just happy INEOS have made a good offroad/overland/touring 4x4 even if it's not perfect! And I too was appalled by the "gold standard" descent - I'd say that was in high range, and hurtling down a slope is not my idea of control. However, creative agencies typically focus on speed rather than control, and care not about the impact on the car or the environment.
yep would agree with 33" being suitable for most touring, for my remote Desert touring it just gives me some added capability and safety margin and options to safely air down lower.
@@AlloffroadAu Also to add, I agree that 35's are a good idea because of the low hanging, protuding componants. A Nitto Trail Grappler MT 35/11.50r17(265/85r17) would be my choice(fits on a OEM 17x7.5 wheel), idealisticlly speaking if availability permits or a 35x12.50r17 KM3(295/75r17 on a OEM 17x7.5 wheel), with a 3 inch lift for "touring"(given that the base model is 1 inch to low, because otherwise it would be a 2 inch lift). I think that a 1 inch lift and 285/70r17(17×7.5) should be a from the factory option. I think that a 3000mm/118 inch wheelbase would have been better than the approximately 2925mm/115 inch wheelbase, and combined with greater distance between the body and frame and a 100L standard/150L OEM optional tank for diesel and petrol models.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that spotted the death wobble. (I think the only reason we got to see that video is it was 3rd party from the BMW bike event and not Ineos themselves). It definitely feels that the majority of people are over the honeymoon period with the grenadier and, unfortunately, its short comings are starting to appear. That being said Ineos are all too keen to tell everyone that these are prototypes, so it'll be interesting to see if the final production vehicles have the same issues!
As I mentioned I have no doubt the Grenadier from factory will not have a dead wobble just wondering if it's as susceptible to it as the Wranglers with a very similar front set up. Time will tell .
100 percent agree with literally everything you said (from the U.S.). Fortunately we apparently get a 100 L tank over here. I don't know why, but we do, and that's good. Also since our steering wheel is on the left, our foot room might be more natural. The biggest draw-backs for me, and frankly what is keeping me from buying this first version, is that it doesn't seem to have much room for growth of wheel size. Absolutely zero people are going to get smaller tires, so they should set up the geometry of the control arms etc., as if their tires are the absolute smallest it will perform well with. In other words, leave geometry room such that 35" can be placed without rubbing or replacing the control arms, AND offer an optional lower final gear ratio. This is key. Bronco got that right and the 4x4 industry is following suit, not that I'm comparing the two rigs. The concept of this rig being modular is great... but it seems to come out of the shop limited in this fundamental way for a 4x4. I know those in the UK probably don't like to hear when you said it's built too for the UK... but the point of the vehicle is to sell and perform all around the world.
100% agree and the beauty of that is that you keep everyone happy, people who like to drive it stock have no issue and on and off-road behaviour will likely be better with longer arms. People who want bigger could do so without jumping trough hoops so everyone is happy. Thats approach to me makes a good foundation for a purpose build 4wd.
I'm speculating that the US petrol (B58) version can accommodate a 100L tank probably because there's no provision required for the Ad Blue reservoir... which is described elsewhere as having a 17L capacity for the B57 diesel...
@@denism2171 Sounds like a good speculation to me! 10% increased fuel is good in my book. I can get far enough for my use, which is a typical use... weekend warrior type with very occasional very long trip.
Hi Buddy I have mine on order as we in Aus will get them before you guys cant figure out why you get a 100 litre tank and we don't . I may have to ask them. With past experience with Nissan patrols if you fit 35 tyres it is common to fit a 50mm lift kit which does not require replacing steering arms as cambers are not affected. 100 mm lift and you will have to modify the suspension.
@@johnswinkels4383 excited for you brother! I've got the reservation payment in back in February in case I feel good about it when we get our turn. I feel fortunate to see all of you guy's videos before we get pressed to make a decision. Hopefully the geometry is still good with 35" tires, I just kinda doubt it given the length of the control arms, causing geometry to change lots for every inch lifted. I'm guessing a 3" lift or so would be good... give or take. But in OZ it might be perfect as is, if they figured out the "death wobble" shown in the video, and you don't want to lift much. I wonder how long the control arms are compared to the Nissan. She's new and exciting either way and I hope to see your video as you're up to some shenanigans!
Yep after the prototype drive, some of your points were the deal breaker for me. Got my reservation deposit back and bought a 79. Later after seeing the price i would have paid, I'm still ahead.
An extremely professional and thorough review with expert knowledge of the subject. Every 4-wheel driver's gold standard, let the manufacturers take notice. The real deal is not the pitch but the patch the vehicle can cope with.
I guess it depends on your needs, when i priced one up, it was quite competitive with a LC and surpassed it in load carrying and towing. The foot well business I didn't know about. That is a major failing in my books. The fact that it comes with a BMW diesel and transmission is the best option for a European maker, but not so sure compared to Japanese/Thailand made vehicles.
@@Owhunter-ki3fn I'm sure their engineering is superior, but if it breaks what will it cost to fix and will the guy with the spanner at dingo piss creek know how to do the job?
I fully concur with your commentary and btw this is a great discussion. The concept is fantastic and I actually like the car a lot but for me, I will wait for a couple of iterations to see how everything performs. Having a BMW engine is great and I know they are very reliable but a concern for AU as everything german costs a fortune to repair/replace. Pricing is also a massive issue, as I priced one with my requirements and came to $118k before stamp duty and LCT, I think is way to high. So at this stage I will be watching with anticipation to see how everything evolves in terms of price and specs. Cheers
Great video mate. I definitely agree with you with regard to the space for your feet. It looks to me that it was designed for the LHD market. I went from a Y61 patrol to a new Jeep Commander and it’s foot well was cramped compared to the Patrol & horrible over the long distance. Even my 76 series is cramped but I’d say better compared to the Ineos.
$85K in the USA . Gas mileage and service key to my thoughts on the INEOS G. Fact is, it’s not overpriced from my perspective. Especially in the USA. Vehicles are used for the same purposes here, but in reality it’s a fantastic option vis a vie the G-wagon or current Defender. In 2001 the original US spec car was $72.5K. Not a gray market model from Europa @ $135K. I don’t want a mall parking lot poser / mommy-mobile. No offense Moms .. frankly the new Toyota 300 series, not sold in the USA currently, is probably the best 4x4 on the market worldwide. Cult status, and bulletproof for resale and reliability. JMO ..
great review....would be interesting to do a direct comparison to a stock Toyota Prado and how both can be modified / costs etc, not talking hard core rock climbing but 95% of what people use their 4x4 for in Australia, think you may be surprised which wins !!
this DID NOT FOLLOW THE BRIEF--- 'BUILD A UTILITY 4X4. this is a DISCOVERY for posseurs to tow a horse box, and those are the buyers, who will INSTANTLY GET FED UP of the weird footwell and DANGEROUS overhead switches. the centre console is also dangerous as checking speed etc means TAKING YOUR EYES OFF THE ROAD to a different viewing position.....it should be 4 CYLINDER DIESEL for torque, MANUAL GEARBOX and it should be able to be worked on BY OWNER. bmw engine was BIG MISTAKE. and cringeworthy BODGES like the oil cooler set on bottom of transfer box with a puny pump that will never work in -30 degrees makes it look like just another DISCOVERY from lr.
Wow. That seating error is an immediate deal breaker. As a seating professional for over 30 years, I'm impressed you made that your first point. Overall, your observations are very astute. Thank you.
Actually, I don't think the Grenadier was ever intended to be the perfect 4wd. It's not the target market. It's way too heavy, too long, too low and too wide. As you note, this isn't a vehicle that's friendly to modifications, at least not yet. I don't think it was intended to be such a vehicle. Anyone who can afford it is unlikely to heavily modify it or they'd choose a better platform. No one is buying a Grenny (I may trademark that) to go rock crawling. I think the target market positioning for this vehicle is where LR used to be in the late 90's (for US anyway). A decently rugged and capable vehicle, bought by owners who consider a rough gravel road as "offroading" LR is a luxury vehicle now...too expensive to risk a real offroad adventure. In addition, there's WAY too much electronic stuff to break. We all know LR's reputation with wiring and electronics (Lucas quality control is a perfect example of an oxymoron). LR's were very unreliable before they added all the complexity (I've owned two Discos...loved them except for the bad reliability). Yes, it would be great to have a true utilitarian 110 replacement that's simple to mod and repair. But unfortunately, those days are long gone I'm afraid.
Interesting and thought provoking. Stefan, What a lot of work it must be to put these videos together, not only the production with all the clips inserted into your videos but the time taken to research everything. Amazing work. Do you do this all yourself? On the Grenadier, No its not the perfect 4WD. Like any motor manufacturers they engage marketing companies to sell the vehicle. Most of the people marketing these things probably never have driven on a gravel road, if they have a drivers license at all as they invariably would live in cities. So the hype can be disregarded largely. As you say, in Low range it can go really fast down a hill. That must be good! But what do we mean when we want a 4WD? I have been in the 4wd scene in Australia for 25 years in 4wd clubs and I can not see a bright future for 4WDing. Young people are abandoning clubs as we in clubs try and encourage responsible use of 4wds , the authorities are closing access everywhere. The kind of shots of rock crawling you showed in the clip are being looked at disapprovingly from the conservation groups and forest rangers. As more people go offroad more regulations are being drawn up. 35 inch tyres and bigger make tracks that were passable in a normal family 4wds impossible as they cut them up, digging large ruts. I have first hand experience of this with rangers we work with on adopt a track using their standard vehicles and not being able to get through. Their reaction is to close the track. Then people come along and cut locks, further reaction to this is , install cameras and fine people. So do we need massive lifted and large tyred 4wds anymore? Pretty soon no as there will be few places apart from pay to play 4wd parks that you will be able to use them. For outback touring, lifts and large tyres are not needed. Therefore the Grenadier is probably a player in this segment of the market. I also think looks is a way more important factor than it seems. If we were all just rational we would draw up spread sheets and compare features, capabilities and pricing and end up with a Pajero on top of the list. People buy on gut feeling and looks is very important. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but i do like the look of the Grenadier. (But some people think a Citreon 2cv is beautiful as well ) Older 4wds are very capable and simple so many will keep them going while they can afford to run them. The problem is that they are getting tired and needy, (especially my Land Rovers unfortunately) and unless you have a very good mechanic or have the time, workshop and skills to DIY many people will upgrade sooner or later. Its all a compromise.
I like your review verry much, i just would like to add that the mercedes G Wagon and Land Rover from the 90s have proven that Europe can built good, reliable (i know, debateable when looking at the land rover...) 4x4s, and its not about the country of origin.
It seems like opinions from of Grenadier from "real" Off roading people of Australia are kinda constant. (Not those "Reviewers" that think G63AMG is a perfect offroad vehicle) and footwell for Left handed driving versions is not looking good.... Offroaders need precise control of pedals and comfort driving position!(just like all vehicles. But precise accel and brake control is kinda more important in offroaders) And grenadier does not looks like "no compromise" off roader. And price is too high. Not so moddable. I don't see why to choose this over bronco with sasquatch package. Even gearing is weird. And HDC is not equipped as standard equipment??? And can't add Lockers in low trim level? Everything is wrong. Low hanging parts without Protection and low ground clearance for not compromised off roader. Make hanging parts to be higher position is even jeep do when they design a new vehicle. Like some undercarriage desigh changes from JK to JL. It "looks like" a Land rover and it seems like just a Land rover. Posh vehicle.
I am always amazed by how most of the negative reviews come from Australia. Seriously … how big of a market do you think Australia represents for most of the world’s manufacturers??? Right sided driving ? Lol
1982 v8 landrover cost $12,000 and is still going great. you just need the basics. however the left foot is cramped by the transmission tunel..you would think this would be fixed in a new car. the next one i buy will probaly be a toyota troop carrier.
Comes in only scum transmission. Instant disinterest. I’m fine doing “difficult” routes in Moab with my 3 pedal bronco - the crawl gear leads to sublime crawl ratio in 4L.
As with all modern 4wds no ground clearance to much complexity . BMW power is fine on paper and in Europe . But this is supposedly suitable for Australia , Africa and Asia. A toy for the aristocrasy in reality.
You have fallen into the trap as a journalist...chritism before it has gone through the initial innovation cycle.The promise is a basic platform which you modify to your own likes...Most buyers want the basic quality platform..as sales increase it will attract third party accessory suppliers. they have plans for many modifications as a continual evolution culture. Yes the prices will be steeper than cheaper mass production established manufacturers. Many point the finger to the engineering company in Austria as trying to create a modern Gwagon replacement. Maybe you should team up with The Australian journalist who wants to take it across australia ?
Why on earth did the put such a small fuel tank in the grenadier ? Other than that they look ok and friends that have driven the prototypes said they are not bad (Except for the small fuel tank. My landcrusier has 150l factory and friends who do remote area touring run over 250l with aftermarket tanks) Other than that it will be interesting to see how they hold together once people start using them.. They advertise that they did 1,000,000 km of testing, but remember there are individual 70 series landcruisers that have done more km that than . So it will be interesting to see how the Grenadiers go once they have big distances in harsh terrain on them
We have 2 tractors than need AdBlue. The tank is 100l smaller than the same without. It’s an expensive pain in the ass and if you can’t get it, then your stuffed.
Thanks for the thoughtful review. I was very enthusiastic about the grenadier but they should have done better than a Geländewagen developed 50 years ago.
The foot well on a RHD Jeep Grand Cherokee is like that and very uncomfortable on a long drive so a valid comment. The fuel tank is the biggest miss in my opinion.
@@dpd6401 Absolutely, on the later models the foot operated parking brake really was in a bad position on RHD models but would have been fine in the LHD models.
ie...to be blunt...behind closed doors they really dont care...as you may have guessed from their lack of responses to your queries...as has happened for decades with land rover
Crikey, comments are harsh. Stephan has a critical review style which evidently is miss understood. Not saying that I always agree however I respect the method used to review products. In saying that I must say that in my experience Harrop E lockers rate well above ARB but second to TJM ;) Cheers and thanks for the content
What you're looking for is an extreme 4wd car. Nobody builds that at least not for mass production. Looks like you already have some extremely modified 80s or 90s Land Cruisers, why you not happy with that? Wait 10 years and you will be able to modify an old Grenadier to your liking with all the after market parts that you can get on ur old LC. For what you're trying to do stick to your old proven Land Cruisers.
You’ll know if it’s worth it or not by watching the USED Car Market within 12-24 month period… Me, like Landrover this thing isn’t something that interest me.. Japanese, Austrian, German or Russian are the only things that I’ll invest in for making overlanders.
What standard car (with genuine options by the manufacturer) would fit your liking?? You are criticizing the only brand that wants to build a real 4x4.
Bronco? Jeep? Patrol? Land Cruiser?
I live in BC, Canada where I live play and work in the back country. I agree with a lot of your comments but need to say that this vehicle is not designed and marketed as a 'rock crawler' therefore should not be judged too harshly against some of your personal trucks that you do or have owned and modified. There is a huge market for 4Wd 'Sports Utility Vehicles' here and most are not designed with purely driving in dried river beds, rocky canyons, fording creeks etc.
To launch a new vehicle into an already saturated market and to make it a profitable venture it should appeal to the mass market. Many 4WD enthusiasts here are very competent at rebuilding old trucks and SUV's to play in the dirt, I have friends who are passionate about this. These enthusiasts probably spend 1/3 to 1/2 as much as it would cost to buy the Grenadier. Also we need to look at the environment in which the Ineos Grenadier will be marketed, true some will likely be bought by those who work and live remotely in the Outback or harsh Northern environments...but a lot will not, they will be bought for the rugged aesthetic that will appeal to the urban 'wannabee' outdoor types, the hockey mums and those who want to be seen as driving something different, that might say something about their personal identity needs.
Originating in the "Land Rover' community of the UK, I hoped that Ineos might have tried to create a basic, almost minimalistic, vehicle that would be very durable, easy to work on, very affordable and that could be customized by the consumer at a later date to raise its specification and adaptive to individual needs. I think the entry price point is too high and the 'full option' cost puts it into the league of the increasingly popular Range Rovers, high specification Jeep Wranglers and high performance, 'off road' pick up trucks such as the Ford F150 Raptor and the Dodge Ram TRX...I can't see Ineos gaining a market when competing with any of these vehicles. Thanks for a well executed review.
Hm, I never ever compared the Grenadier against my Rock Crawler my comparison is mainly against my 105 Landcruiser, which is precisely in the same vehicle category and a touring vehicle. I think the main issue is that Ineos built a platform that has quite a few shortcomings and shows that no 4wd experts were involved in the design. It's just not as customisable as many other 4wd on the market at present.
I do entirely agree with your statement, "they will be bought for the rugged aesthetic that will appeal to the urban 'wannabee' outdoor types, the hockey mums and those who want to be seen as driving something different, that might say something about their personal identity needs. " and I think it's perfectly suited for that market. You have many other cars already in this market segment, and Ineos just adds another option to that segment, it is not the class-leading purposes build 4x4 it was advertised to be, though.
Awesome and thorough review! I agree with everything you have said in this video 100%. Despite the grenadiers shortcomings, I am still happy that they have built a dual solid axle vehicle that can hopefully be revised in the future to eliminate its current issues that you highlighted in the video. This may make it a legendary four wheel drive that can be used as a tourer and for tough tracks. Keep up the great content.
Thanks mate, I'm also keen to see what I think in a year after the Grenadier is on the market and used in public for some time. I'm also keen on what Ineos comes up with in the future after all this is only version 1.
There seems to be a disconnect with actual serious off road use.
I put my deposit down. I did a test drive. It did well. One small thing that got me, the backseat don't fall flat. I have a 1976 international scout ii and it has that capability. I just traded my 2012 Range Rover Sport with 91,000 for a 2001 Landcruiser!
These are important points to keep in mind while purchasing it. I will not baby it when it’s arrive, it will be driven to extremes until something prevails, common sense say drive what it is intent to but with your skills and preparations to what ever it, full passengers, towing and pulling, off road and over-landing. But it’s good looking on road and comfy also.
I have fully loaded it with options with intent to use it. It is very interesting new Off road company car with future cars on the way. For sure the Pick up will definitely in my radar and am selling my current pickup when the Ineos is out. Then I can wait until the new pickup comes in the future while enjoying the Grenadier in the mean time.
Ok you Grenadier fans starting on the 9/9 for 3-days is the 4WD and camping show at eastern creek Sydney on display will be the production model going through its paces. As the author of this article pointed out the pedals were offset on a protype to the steering wheel. If someone from Sydney is going to this event can you please note the seating position and report what you found this would be a great help for buyers.
I will be there and having a look at pedal positions, foot rest and a few other things
@@AlloffroadAu You little beauty I wrote a letter to Grenadier after your first article I received a receipt with still no reply.You will be able to sit in it. Look forward to your reply as will many others no doubt.
@@AlloffroadAu Ok its Sunday you have been to the exhibition please what is the verdict on driver position to pedals I know the problem was the position of the exhaust for right hand drivers. talk to me.
Do you think you will get around to answering my questions regarding pedal position. we are all hanging out.
Great video and review. I've never thought of it as a tourer in Australia. You touched on my reason that it wouldn't make a good tourer, that being spares and service. As you have previously found out with your 110 Landrover. This vehicle will be an even lower production and ownership, so outback mechanics would rarely see one and wouldn't be keen to work on it. For remote touring in Australia you have to go with Toyota for genuine and after market parts and service, followed closely by Nissan. The best prepared vehicle will still have some kind of problem when touring. The last thing anyone wants is to have a lengthy wait for parts, or an expensive recovery and transport many thousands of kilometers to a service agent. Great review as always.
agree mate and one reason why I switched from the "better looking" Defender to the more reliable and serviceable Landcruiser and after over 3 years touring in the Landcruiser I can say it was 100% the right decision (as much as I liked many aspects of the Defender).
@@AlloffroadAu yes, that's why we have stayed with the older landcruisers. Just got to look at what the number one vehicle is on farms and stations.
yep in remote communities every other 4wd we have seen was a 80 or 100 series not to mention pretty much every farmer has at least one 70 series somewhere on the farm.
@@AlloffroadAu we were 120km southeast of Carnarvon WA when we had a wheel bearing go without warning in the old 80series. It damaged the spindle. We limped it back to Carnarvon, went into Repco and they had all the parts in stock. I fixed it in the carpark out the front on Repco. We had waited 3 day's for the same parts in western Sydney after smashing a CV and damaging the spindle before we left on the trip. I doubt we would of got parts for any other model without waiting.
@@waynelemmon3007 I guess that many spare parts would have to be ordered if possible before touring, which would significantly increase the cost of initial cost of ownership, possibly delaying some of the nessasary modifications, delaying a persons touring schedule.
Thanks for your honest opinion based on your knowledge. Highly appreciated.
- With your view in mind, in this video, you showed me why I (on a limited budget) didn’t wait for the Grenadier but bought a Jimny.
That said, IF I was one of the guys WITH the money, I still think I would go for the Grenadier. Because for the ones with that amount of cash cash isn’t a problem.
From my point of view, your most interesting point is the locker/-s. Grenadier went for an electrical one, seriously…!!??? Not mentioning the winch option nor the LHD seating position with the weird footwell as my view would ban me from TH-cam…
Regarding 3rd party accessory suppliers … Give the manufacturers a chance. Look at the Gen4 Jimny. It was released in 2018. Today the marked is flooded with extras for it. I expect the same for the Grenadier in a few years time, ie be patient. 😉
A lack of 3rd party options is definitely something to consider seriously. I bought a 6x6 land rover perentie, and now Im trying to add extra fuel tank, upgrade the brakes for better performance etc - cannot really buy anything off the shelf, so it is much harder to research and costs go through the roof.
Good video, thanks
So I like it, I have driven one but it’s 50k dearer than a new jeep rubicon, (NZD) and it’s no better off-road and lacks things like radar cruise and sway bar disconnect.
I’m in total agreement about the RHD seating position issue while I also, from experience, do not like the very exposed steering damper. I like the Grenadier a lot but will wait to see how things develope going forward with real exposure and reviews.
Thank you sir!
Price point is going to be the main factor for real world off roaders.
A farmer in the uk is no where near a person needing a dependable, fixable on the go , rugged and reliable vehicle for transport and living.
yes I cant see many engineering limitations as a farm truck (beside price and reliability, parts availability etc) as a proper off road 4wd it has many shortcomings for a supposedly purpose build 4wd.
@@AlloffroadAu I still see them coming out with an offroader, that will fulfill all your needs as well as those of the people living in organic lands.
Once they have established for a few years to cover initial costs, they will come out with affordable and dependable variants...as you mentioned !
Its all about moneys trickling down .
I really hope so, but they will need to consult actually off-roaders, the team they have now has only a very rudimental clue about actual 4w driving
After watching your informative video, I will only look at the 2nd gen version . The death wobble really got me thinking?
Whilst a good few of your points regarding range/ tire up sizing and suspension upgrades won't be an issue for most " Grey nomad " users-the final package price is getting up there for items that should be standard fitment-the difflocks for example.
Great insights, thou 🤔👍🙂
Thank you Stefan for an in-depth analysis, I am not sure if it will be able to safely negotiate the sand dunes in the Middle East due to it only it’s weight, break over angle but mainly it’s front & rear end ground clearances. Middle East is a big market for SUV’S and the terrain is mostly soft sand, I wonder if it will be able to compete with the likes of LC, Jeep Wrangler, Nissan Patrols that have rules the roost and New Bronco that seems equally capable. Let’s wait & watch how the production version comes out & then we will be in a better position to pass a verdict.
I think stock it can not compete, lets see how easy it is to put 35" underneath and if the other components are up for it. I will when I get my hand on a final car.
100% agree.....they have designed an off road vehicle without addressing the basics for going off road. They needed to talk to off road companies and enthusiasts to get to the core ingredients of what makes an off road vehicle excel in all areas!
Thanks a lot, the most deeply analyzed video about IG I've already found. Despite the fact I live in EU I totally agree with you. "Perfect" off-roader have to have potential to be modified heavily. Most manufacturers state the factory spec is enough. And in most cases they are right. Europe is NOT a serious off-road market but in many countries across Asia and Africa I saw thousands of local driven 4x4s and 99% was more or less in stock version when it comes to suspension and wheels. But there is a real off-road community not only in Australia, USA, SA or even South America. In Europe prices of the most proven and wanted 4x4s skyrocketed in recent years (like in Oz) and one have to pay 25-40k EUR for off-roader like not rusted through Patrol Y61, LC J80 with half a million kms, or even more for top-shaped Defender. In Poland where I live there is company making plug-and-play frames! for all Y60/61 Patrols (one can register them in PL). It shows hunger for real 4x4s. I think you're right, Ineos made "European" mistake stating that the stock would be enough. But it is not. This is why Wrangler is so much popular across Europe and keep value for years. The same with my FJ Cruiser despite its IFS. I am oriented towards overlanding more but most people in Europe using its 4x4s locally in some off-road rallys for example. And there is no chance to follow modified Patrol on its 35"s or 37"s in deep mud in a stock off-roader. So fitting 33"s is a absolute minimum for all those who think seriously of doing off-road in Poland and in many other eastern European countries where digging mud is a serious thing. :) Cheers.
thank you I 100% agree, greetings to Poland
“Despite it’s IFS”? IFS is the way to go but combined with IRS. Independent all round. No solid axles and no leaf springs. Removes the low hanging “diff pumpkin” that way also.
What an excellent breakdown!
thank you
Very good review Stefan, and I agree with everything you pointed out. The footwell design looks like it could be a disaster. The speedo is in a rediculous position in my opinion. It will be interesting to see what people think of driving the vehicle long distance on the bitumen, as it is a long way between places of interest. It might be ok driving around the Lord Muck's farm in England, but it will be interesting to see how it handles Oz.
yep, very different sitting in one for a short test drive real ergonomic issues you will find out after a few hours behind the wheel. A 10k round trip is not unusually in OZ and I dare to say it would be quite uncomfortable
@@AlloffroadAu I doubt they design for eg Aus. It's too small a market to warrant such attention. Realistically few people will ever take their 4wds into places so extreme or if they do they will hopefully do as Stefan has...build a vehicle to suit that purpose...which of course for most folk costs a fortune. Eg we're 30k plus into a
GQ Patrol built for such extreme use.
I think it’s going to be great, it is a car that far outweighs the components others come with as a starting point. It is purpose built out of the showroom. The car has not even left a show room, I’m not sure how one draws these opinions.
by having many years experience in driving and building 4wd’s, going to the drive day and looking at the plethora of information about the car which is available I can draw pretty accurate conclusions what the car will be like
@@AlloffroadAu likewise having a number of years of experience building 4wds and being involved in the industry, I think the Ineos executes very well on on its criteria, the level of expertise involved in the engineering of this comes from some pretty historic success. A lot of what you are saying is based on your own personal preferences which is fine but I don’t think it is gospel, I guess for yourself it’s the beauty of TH-cam
Interesting review and there is some merit in your comments...but one thing you said that i do totally agree with, is that no vehicle can be everything to all people.
I note, by the vehicles you appear to have owned of late (ie you driving in the video), your idea of off-road driving is a little more demanding than many and would have coloured your opinion of what an ideal four wheel drive needs to be and I don't believe any out of the box vehicles would come anywhere near to perfection for you unless its a rock crawling beast sitting on 35s.
I like the idea of an alternative to the current crop of vehicles, none of which float my boat. Also the decision to have these exempt from LCT just reduced the cost which is nice. didn't
my vehicle set up is quite common in Australia and a purpose build 4wd should be as easily modifiable to this standards as for example a 105 Landcruiser, a 70 Series or Patrol.
Well said. Also, you really didn't do that Pinzgauer justice by not taking it on one single adventure. If you've got any footage hidden away post it!
yes I agree in regards to Pinz did not plan to sell it immediately but then had someone who wanted it so badly so all went a bit quick.
This is going to be perfect for me. I don't like exceeding manufacturer specs.
I am not over the top offroader but the place I live in requires 4x4 (Mongolia)
This one is modern enough, yet live axles and mid range engine and with most if not all of modern amenities and also does 70 series does
Great video, when I went to look at the grenadier I was suprised the steering dampener/stabaliser was right in front of the diff pumpkin, which seems it would be very susceptible to damage.
And we were told the stud pattern wasnt shared with any other car
didn't know about the stud pattern definitely something to consider as it may be hard getting replacement wheels in the bush, I definitely agree with steering damper position but I heard it is moved but we shall see in final version.
@@AlloffroadAu Bizarrely I think it is 6x130 PCD.... a stud pattern used by a few commercial vans but literally no 4WD's apart from LDV.
For me… i prefer diesel for my 4WD… Ad Blu is a massive deal breaker. Which is a shame, because i can live/work with all the other flaws except for that. Would purchase one today, instead of hunting for the perfect defender 110…
Just goes the show how well engineered older off road vehicles are despite not having modern design software. All valid points on the Grenadier, the only parts I do like about it are the looks and the powertrain.
It needs portal axles and a manual gearbox. Its a must to strip out all gadgets nobody can fix outside the first world.
portals I agree a good auto box has served me better than many manual but both have pros and cons
Another very genuine, thoughtful and entirely fair opinion piece Stefan. Ineos certainly could and should be doing a better job on providing essential information such as gear ratios and addressing all the other issues such as the footwell, underbody clearance and the other matters you have raised. These are all entirely fair points and concerns. I did put in a Grenadier reservation last year (based on buying a dual cab) and am still hoping it will be worth doing so when that variant is released but Ineos’ stonewalling on these important matters is really a black mark against them at this point. It does irritate me that they only brought one vehicle to Australia and this was effectively a show pony but their declared prime market is mostly miners, farmers, tour operators ie commercial or workhorse sales! They should have brought 10 vehicles here, put them to sustained hard work, and forgotten about testing in most of Europe… Which market are they really targeting?
I 100% agree mate and even though from what heard Australia had the highest number of pre-orders I can't see that any feedback has been incorporated.
portals, 2" lift and custom control arms borderline nessessary to get this things belly off the ground. That said, with those installed I bet the whole thing would still have a really low center of gravity compared to contemparies with similar mods
low center of gravity is good but would be great if return to center in steering works or you had room to upgrade fuel tank to a more reasonable size for countries like australia.
How come would spec up FieldMaster and not TrialMaster? As that comes with diff locks. Also think Field comes with leather seats which you said it didn't, not sure if got things muddled up... or I did :)
Unfortunately in the UK the Nissan patrol or Land Cruzer 70 series are not on sale.
While I agree with all of your observations mechanically, the looks are VERY important in this case. They copied the old Defender since LR stupidly abandoned its icon. The owner of Ineos copied it for that reason, PRIMARILY. He wanted to make what LR should have made instead of the over-engineered design that they did. LR even lost its case against Ineos for copying their abandoned design. I hope they work out the shortcomings, and beat LR on principle, for turning their back on a world renowned icon. I think they're doing OK for their first vehicle design, so far. Hopefully your assessments will be heard and addressed!
ineos acquired the right from LR as far as i know
@@kl6cchih No. LR sued Ineos for coppying the look of the original Defender and LOST.
Well it has nothing to do with that stuppid Landrover.
Mine was delayed until Christmas and then Jan…we’ll see but am hopeful
Not sure the pricing is anything other than post Covid inflationary pressure and small run production
keen to hear how you go if and when you get it
I've just specced a grenadier in comparison to a Jeep Wrangler JLU Rubicon. Regarding the pricing, the Grenadier is way cheaper, while being better equipped, here in Germany. We are talking about 15% list price - the Jeep would have some noticeable dealer discounts, tho. In the end they'd be pretty evenly priced. At this point both cars would need several after market parts - I don't really see them being different in pricing for any of the cars, besides not having a lot of (any) options for the Grenadier atm. The Grenadier also offers more offroad options from the factory, which is a huge pro-argument, considering our regulations here in Europe.
difference with the Jeep is that all shortcomings are well known and you have a infinite amount of aftermarket parts available and can build a Jeep to whatever you like it to be. Not so with a Grenadier.
great video thanks - very clear explanations and opinions
Glad it was helpful!
I don’t want to sound like I’m sticking up for them because I think the BMW engine was a bad choice to begin with and if they are gonna play with the big boys they gotta compete with them. However, I think the ford F series has a wobble here and there, I think Jeeps get a wobble here and there heck my 4 runner wouldn’t get a death wobble but it would wobble, my Tacoma would wobble. So I don’t think a wobble is acceptable but I also think there is going to be at times situations where that happens. As for the ergonomics, I can agree that would be a weird driving position. As for the bits and pieces as well as accessories, to be honest, I’m not looking to modify mine if I was getting one. I don’t need a rock crawler and where I live gas stations are fairly plentiful. I think for someone like me that lives in a somewhat rural area and likes to travel to somewhat rural areas this thing is overkill for what I’d use it for. I think it’s the price that would be quite off putting. I mean for what most people would use a 4x4 for a 4Runner or heck even a Subaru AWD would get most people where they want to go and probably be more comfortable, fuel efficient and easy to maintain as well as much cheaper. So I respect them for making the attempt, BUT I think with much more luxurious options on the market they’ll have a tough time finding a buyer. Something like the 4Runner is most definitely going to be more reliable and better to live with day to day for half the price. I just don’t know. Time will tell. If the sun and stars align I wouldn’t mind buying one if they release it in the near future but with how finances are going who know how the economy will be when they finally get them out to customers. Their potential middle class base might be broke by the time the actually release it or interest rates could be too high to make financing it an option.
yep would agree your usage case is what it was built for and for Europe that may be unique here in Australia, you could find at least another ten 4wd who could accomplish the same though and quite a bit cheaper in most cases.
@@AlloffroadAu thank you for
Your reply. I hope you get to test it a bit more. I dunno depending on the price I don’t know if it will be priced right a 4 Runner fits my needs and a 4Runner seems to be half the price. Sometimes I tow/haul, sometimes I’m on slightly muddy roads, sometimes I go with friends to go shooting in slightly remote areas. So I think the grenadier might be too much, time will tell
Your prices are a little off. Why have you listed a base 300 at 89k (they start at 98k and come with basically nothing) against the top of the range Grenadier? The Grenadier starts at 85k, you would need to get the top of the range 95k model with 20 grand worth of extras to reach your price of 126k. Also good luck getting a new defender 110 at anywhere near 100k, maybe a 90 but that's not even in the same category. Four door jeep Rubicon's also start at closer to 90k and you have to have a 6 cyl petrol. Then there is the 79GXL....... I assume you mean 4 door to keep in the same category? You cant even get one at retail without waiting 2 years, the realistic price for a 2022 GXL 79 is 120k. You make some fair points but that chart is a little misleading towards the Ineos that fairly fits in the middle of the prices and actually at the bottom of the wagon prices with a lot of kit from factory.
the prices are rough prices found online mate I priced it up and the grenadier would cost me 150K I build a dream 70 series for that www.carsguide.com.au/toyota/landcruiser-70-series/price/2022
Good video. Thank you for sharing thoughts. I'm wondering if Ineous pick up will have additional room for extra fuel tank. Also engine from BMW, I am not sure B58 can survive 1million km, but I am sure it can't compete with Toyota's HZ/HD (my personal opinion).
Good question! And I'm also wondering if we possibly see some changes and improvement in the LWB model.
I only agree with parts of this review. You have approached this with an extremely picky/fussy eye. Long range fuel tanks? They're a dumb upgrade for any vehicle! You add the weight of the bigger tanks, which you carry around at all times - even in the city - and then you fill the extra tank with fuel, which adds weight and then you use more fuel to drag around....more fuel.
Just leave the factory tank in your 4x4 and when you go out bush chuck a few plastic 20L jerry cans on the roof rack or in the back. Why drive around with all the extra weight? Diff locks - who cares if they're electric or air. There's thousands of people out there running E-lockers without any problems....and the so-called unlocking issue when you stop is over-blown. There's usually enough bind/pre-load in the driveline to keep them locked. Get over it. Plenty of people have issues with air lockers leaking too. The cramped footwell? 100% agree on this one. I'm 191cms and find many cars cramped on long trips. Having my left leg cramped could be a deal breaker for me. I think it was a serious design oversight. Aftermarket parts & upgrades? Don't worry the aftermarket will be all over these things in due time, They've barely been on the market for more than 6 minutes. Give it time, there will be lots of good stuff to upgrade them with. Every other 4x4 has had a 40 year head start. Price? Yep. That's a tough one. This was supposed to be around $80k when they first started marketing it. The actually pricing is really disappointing. There's a really important point you've missed when you criticise the first generation Grenadier. This vehicle is about one man sticking his finger up at the rubbish we're supposed to keep buying every time a car company wants to sell more "SUV"'s to the soccer Mum's. This product is so awesome because of what it represents - Old mate Ratcliffe has literally put his money where his mouth is and said enough is enough. I want a modern Defender, I don't want a useless soft roader. I mean they are a chemicals company having a crack at building a 4x4 and look how far they've pushed the envelope! Toyota and Nissan and Land Rover look like a bunch of utter pussies for delivering each new model softer and more tech-laden than the next. Will the first gen Grenadier have sone short-comings?? Of course it will. Should it be whole-heartedly supported by anyone than can? Absolutely. This is the kind of vehicle building approach we should all support. It's a really good attempt at a no bullshit product. They've attempted to do what we always wanted a manufacturer to do. I think your review is a too picky and I think you should be honest about the tens of thousands you've spent on your vehicles to get them "up to spec".
Excelente reportaje.
I do hope ineovs build team take you expertise to heart
I don't think so unfortunately they have not taken any of the Australian feedback on board.
My 1997 2.8i Defender has 220L fuel on board, (75 L main tank, and aftermarket tanks 45 L in right rear corner and 2x50 L below each front seat with fill opening under driver seat (still 310mm ground clearance) each with pump to main tank operated from dashboard. And 2 jerrycans on roofcarier and another 2 jerrycans in frame hanging off rear spare wheel. Totalling 300 liter, good for 2000km gravel/tar or 1000km serious sand/dunes/rocky surface.
And had 2 off 45 L aftermarket water tanks (one in left rear corner and one inside under rear seats spanning the car's width.
And does the Grenadier have space for a 120Ah second battery (with BMS) to keep a fridge going for a week, like the Defender has under the passenger seat?
Until the Grenadier has similar capacities, it is not suited for Australia, Africa, US or any other wide area remote conditions.
The engineers never made a 4x4?
It was developed by Magna Steyr Austria, they develop and build also the Mercedes G-Wagon, Jeep Grand Cherokee … also afaik it is part supplier for UNIMOG
yep the designer never design a 4wd before or any car for that matter
Very interesting. Great video.
Thank you!
Good review Stefan
thank you, hope you are well seeing some awesome images from your trips
Still better then any defender ever build
depends on what better means for you
Thank you very much for this educational and real review. I'd appreciate if we can know your thoughts on the Ram power Wagon. They are sold in the US as a off-road truck. Ram is famous for electrical issues, but I'd like to know your opinion.
I'm from Canada and Rams are everywhere. My general thought is that they are unreliable as heck and would never trust one off road.
@@mark2073 Thank you for your feedback! :) yeah so I heard as well!
I could not give much of an opinion as RAM are very rare in Australia, the 250 is probably a great tow vehicle but they are very big and probably not that well suited to really go off road in oz. Reliability and Serviceability would also be a big problem here.
@@AlloffroadAu Thank you for your reply and awesome review of the Ineos!!! The 250 is a better truck!! The great thing about Ford here in the US is that every little town has a Ford dealership!
100% thats the same for us here with Toyota, every outback mechanic knows them in and out (especially the older versions)
Brilliant, honest, balanced very sensible review. I will now consider another make, probably the Toyota Landcrusier.
Toyotas are well proven with a lot of support and knowing mechanics around, definitely not a bad choice
Well, your review feels a little like an attack piece. From online reviews and without having driven it myself, I submit that it looks like the most promising 4x4 coming down the pike. It starts with a true ladder frame and real 4x4 system. It will have a dependable drivetrain. The footwell appears Jeep like and the pedals as if on the left side for Americans. The dry box beneath the rear seat is a great idea. The only flaw may be the 90 liter tank but that can be remedied quickly with stacking tanks attached to rear and sides to add fuels along the trip. The point is, this appears to offer a bigger ,utility 4x4 where other manufacturers seem only to be focused on car like comforts.
Interesting that anything sightly critical is an attack piece. There are plenty of reviews out there without highlighting any of the potential downsides so I’m doing that as I planed to purchase one so everything I mention is why at this stage I won’t purchase. Solid axle is good but an an independent suspension engineers for offroad would be an better option not for nothing have most comp trucks now also moved to independent. Independent has many advantages on and offroad if it’s designed for it see Ford Raptor for instance. There is no room for additional fuel tanks, there is no way to increase footwell space for RHD. It’s a vehicle with many compromises and on top of it unproved in regards to reliability and serviceability. It not a no brainer 4wd it will suit some and others not. Many other 4wd can deliver the same and often better in some ways with a proven track record.
I think the items you mentioned are important to “you” but not the masses. This is probably why he called you r review an attack piece. I do own several l Land Cruisers so I am a TLC guy, but let’s be honest, not many people are going to do all the high priced mods you mentioned to a brand new truck. They will to an older TLC. So this vehicle is not for “you”, as you are clearly a hard core off-road driver. For an American like myself who does weekend trail riding I don’t see any issues other than the high starting price. It seems as though it will be competitive to other similar vehicles in our market, ie the 200 series TLC. I run a 100 series myself. Thanks for you review.
Spot on!
I like it and I want one.
Yes, truly the case!
I canceled my Ineos Grneadiar order, because it will take me make long time to get it , so I made order for (Tesla Y performance ) and I have get it in almost 6 months ,cheaper and faster electric car , and yet people who make order for the Grneadir did get nothing 🥹 tell now 😎
It was built for Europe, few people are interested in what down under wants
---- UPDATE September 2022 ---------
I sat in the latest model, which according to Ineos, is pretty much done besides some small changes under the bonnet and cosmetic stuff. In my opinion, the seating position is bad for someone my size, while I sat in the back, two other people who were around my height jumped into the driver's seat and said exactly the same to their friends. If you are anywhere around 190cm, I strongly suggest sitting in one before buying. For me, it's definitely ruled out as a tourer as the seating position is nothing that you can modify or change.
-----------------------
There are a few heated opinions here, and I do value all constructive feedback and will never delete such; however, become disrespectful, I will delete your comments.
These are my opinions based on my experience and research. If you don't like to hear concerns or shortcomings, don't watch the video.
If you create a purpose-built 4wd for enthusiasts and professionals and make it available as a ProtoType you will get more scrutiny from people who know what they are looking at and see shortcomings.
In my opinion better to know possible shortcomings now than after spending 130k. What I mentioned does not concern or affect you? No problem, it seems to be the right car for you, and that is perfectly fine.
I see this video as one part of the puzzle to making an informed purchase decision.
Your got too much experience to know what works and what doesn’t
Spending over 100K is serious business
Heaps appreciate the wisdom your sharing
Keep ‘em coming!! 🤙
Absolute respect for your wisdom access points (WAPs) clear, reasoned analysis backed up with much experience n real world situations. People can either take them onboard or not - but the consumers need independent reviews like this to guide their timing on purchasing decisions. Thanks very much for sharing your incite and opinion.
This is a more balanced video than your first one. I think the confusion comes from you spending alot of time listing faults with a vehicle which is not really designed for your application. Your current over landing rig looks bad ass and i don't see how the IG would ever be better than that for your use. I think you summed it up when you said it was designed and built for Europe which it is and with that comes a lot of regulation and compromise. It might not be perfect but it will have it's niche for people who want reliable and robust in a compact package (alot of AUS/ US trucks are just too big for Europe) and who don't need 180litres of fuel capacity! Interesting what you say about the E lockers as i probably don't need them but people are saying to spec them for resale value as people will want them specced. Offset pedals suck so hopefully that is sorted somewhat. The over head switches are cool so probably worth a small compromise
@SCMTBCoach the Landcruiser 105 was also never designed as a long range tourer but it could be easily converted into one. A good purpose build 4wd provides a base where you can make out of it what you want and one of the main issues with the Grenadier is that it does not provide that platform. Is it a bad 4wd? I don't think so but time will tell, but it sure does not have the overwhelming distinguishable feature it was supposed to have as a purpose build 4wd. It has as many if not more pros and cons than many other 4wd on the market and you just need to see which ones you can better live with. Given it's a small volume vehicle at present you have actually way less options than with any other 4wd and Ineos has engineered the Grenadier in a bit of a cull de sac in regards to modifiability. Will it still suit people? Sure it will and I hope enough so we see an improved version 2 maybe with more input from people who actually 4wd.
@@AlloffroadAu I think the thing is could a vehicle as you want it have been created in 2022 and meat European regs? I am not an expert so i don't know but I think that anything that would have added weight was off the table as it is already heavy and has a gross vehicle limit of 3500kg (including payload)
As a long time CJ and Wrangler owner, my absolute love with the looks of the Grenadier has always been tinged with bit of…wariness. At this point I think I still want one, but you’ve definitely given me more to consider. Thank you!
Thanks for sharing
What Wrangler do/did you own? 2- or 4-door? What year? I’m possibly interested in owning a second-hand 4-door Wrangler in the future.
@@timtim2949, between my original comment and now I have retired, so my current 4-door Wrangler is going to me my forever-car by necessity - I don’t think I’m going to be able to afford a Grenadier when if finally makes it to the States.
@@AlloffroadAu Hi, departure angle of the quartermaster does not look great.
I have a gladiator and I test drove one of these. It’s nice but lacks a lot of stuff the jeep has. Also, it’s a lot more expensive.
The Grenadier is a ground breaking vehicle in the history of 4 wheel drive vehicles, combining traditional, functional design with modernity in a very welcome way. I think your comments are all reasonable and accurate critiques of a first generation car company and specialty vehicle. as compared to your wish list. And once the company begins delivering vehicles to customers we will all see the collective real world experience here on youtube. The tough call is whether to buy one, knowing that future model years will only bring improvements in options [gas tank size?] and fit and finish. Look at Ford's pandemic influenced, flawed roll out of the Bronco with defective hard tops, and probably many other fit and finish issues to clean up. And that's by a traditional OEM. Regarding the Grenadier, what gives me a high degree of confidence in a successful roll out are the partners involved in the design and assembly, specifically Magna Steyr, the maker of the legendary G Wagon. [compare the door handles between the two vehicles😉] Also, consider that the Grenadier is being assembled at a former but very modern plant of Mercedes, with the same workforce, suggests a high level of competence and commitment to high quality construction. [The plant will still produce various small MBZ models, per press reports.] The reputation of all of these partners is at stake world wide. All of these factors instill a level of confidence that the vehicle will be reliable and of high quality from the beginning.
And one more comment - even though the there's obvious inspiration and motivation to continue the Defender lineage, this vehicle has more in common with the German G Wagon - design, technically, size and proportions, and production lineage.
hm I agree with many things you say I'm just not as confident that there will be future vehicles, In comparison to Ford, Ineos Car is a one-trick pony. I also don't think that any other manufacturers' reputation is on the line they just supply parts to a niche manufacturer, which is very common in the industry. My concern is that from what I have seen so far, Ineos does not have a team of people who really understand 4wd that is from development all through to their ground staff, who test and even market the vehicle. Mind you, I hope you are right, and future versions will improve on the shortcomings. If future models turn out better, I will more than happily agree that I'm wrong. If the Grenadier is still talked about a year after being in the customer's hand, I will also get my hand on a second-hand one and see what is possible and likely will be touring with one beforehand. I have no ill feelings towards Ineos or the car I just call it how I see it.
Excellent review. Absolutely spot on that you really don't want to be that "first customer" to buy one in Australia or Southern Africa and drive off into the wild blue yonder. My thoughts are to wait at least 5 years into production before seriously considering the Grenadier in Australia
They wont be around in 5 years if nobody buys one
Already been tested in Australia and deserts across the world, including Namibia in Africa, and as far away as Alaska, Iceland and Norway. The engine has been proven as one of the most reliable engines in the 330d and BMWX5 for more than 10 years and the transmission equally solid built by ZF. Any Bosch or BMW dealer will be able to service the vehicle.
😂😂
the left steered cars most likely wont have the exhaust in the way. I like a few things about it. The one central roof panel 4x4 switch switches off all modern electronic controls at ones. There is a aux battery in the rear. Prewired outside light switches in the roof, so when camping/sleeping in the back, they are easy accessible. The grenadier reminds me on the early G class. Two roof windows 👍🏽 Alloy doors, the rest in steel, german made ladder frame and solid axles, compared to the Defender. You got to design a car like this for modern times first, that has to be understood. Look at the new Defender
images I have seen from LHD have a much smaller footrest so should be much better for you guys driving in n the “wrong” side of the road
You'd be nothing short of brave and deep pocketed to take a gamble on this. Thing could turn out to be a 160k lemon and we havent talked about its resale value yet.
Extremely informative video. Don't worry about the keyboard warriors, you are sharing your perspective based on your significant experiences and that will help a lot of people make their own decisions with their own criteria. One of the most useful videos I've seen yet. Keep up the great work.
I appreciate that!
That's Andrew St. Pierre White at 6:50. He has a dedicated channel for overlanding. Check his channel out! I learned a lot from him.
Awesome work as usual Stef. Like you, I had high hopes on the Grenadier but have been left very short on the product being delivered. Unlike you, I thought the way this product was marketed, that it SHOULD have been offered off the forecourt with an option for 35's. 33's should surely be standard. Completely agree on the the short arm WAs, death wobble possibility. Actually agree on the lockers, the clearance, the limited fuel capacity, the footwell, the overhead controls, the winch option, gearing etc.
I had the Grenadier on my interest list, and it will go back on that list if they look to local support from someone like yourself, perhaps with support from the local modifier suppliers - not formula 1 drivers, ice-cream van people, or rally drivers. But people who actually know 4wd. You've quoted two other 4wd specialists in this vid, and as it goes, that is three of four who are the only 4wd specialists in my TH-cam feed. Grenadier would find it hard doing better than bringing you three to the table.
Just do it Grenadier. If you take it seriously, you will love the result.
@Dru Spork...no product has yet been delivered.....so what are you actually talking about?
A very honest video. I love the Genadier concept but as an Australian Outback/desert tourer, it will not make the grade. The current Troopcarrier runs rings around it for outback touring.
Good video. We are going to need to disagree on the necessity for 35s on a tourer though, I find 32-33 adequate. I'm just happy INEOS have made a good offroad/overland/touring 4x4 even if it's not perfect! And I too was appalled by the "gold standard" descent - I'd say that was in high range, and hurtling down a slope is not my idea of control. However, creative agencies typically focus on speed rather than control, and care not about the impact on the car or the environment.
yep would agree with 33" being suitable for most touring, for my remote Desert touring it just gives me some added capability and safety margin and options to safely air down lower.
@@AlloffroadAu Also to add, I agree that 35's are a good idea because of the low hanging, protuding componants. A Nitto Trail Grappler MT 35/11.50r17(265/85r17) would be my choice(fits on a OEM 17x7.5 wheel), idealisticlly speaking if availability permits or a 35x12.50r17 KM3(295/75r17 on a OEM 17x7.5 wheel), with a 3 inch lift for "touring"(given that the base model is 1 inch to low, because otherwise it would be a 2 inch lift). I think that a 1 inch lift and 285/70r17(17×7.5) should be a from the factory option. I think that a 3000mm/118 inch wheelbase would have been better than the approximately 2925mm/115 inch wheelbase, and combined with greater distance between the body and frame and a 100L standard/150L OEM optional tank for diesel and petrol models.
I have been on a test in France and 1st low was as you would expect probably a bit slower than my L322 Range Rover. Definitely not as in the video.
Very interesting to hear your objective analysis, there are many flaws you highlight that I hadn't considered!
I'm glad I'm not the only one that spotted the death wobble. (I think the only reason we got to see that video is it was 3rd party from the BMW bike event and not Ineos themselves). It definitely feels that the majority of people are over the honeymoon period with the grenadier and, unfortunately, its short comings are starting to appear.
That being said Ineos are all too keen to tell everyone that these are prototypes, so it'll be interesting to see if the final production vehicles have the same issues!
As I mentioned I have no doubt the Grenadier from factory will not have a dead wobble just wondering if it's as susceptible to it as the Wranglers with a very similar front set up. Time will tell .
The Grenadier sounds like a rich man’s vehicle. Unfortunately this is not an option for me, especially if I am going to take it off-road.
100 percent agree with literally everything you said (from the U.S.). Fortunately we apparently get a 100 L tank over here. I don't know why, but we do, and that's good. Also since our steering wheel is on the left, our foot room might be more natural. The biggest draw-backs for me, and frankly what is keeping me from buying this first version, is that it doesn't seem to have much room for growth of wheel size. Absolutely zero people are going to get smaller tires, so they should set up the geometry of the control arms etc., as if their tires are the absolute smallest it will perform well with. In other words, leave geometry room such that 35" can be placed without rubbing or replacing the control arms, AND offer an optional lower final gear ratio. This is key. Bronco got that right and the 4x4 industry is following suit, not that I'm comparing the two rigs. The concept of this rig being modular is great... but it seems to come out of the shop limited in this fundamental way for a 4x4. I know those in the UK probably don't like to hear when you said it's built too for the UK... but the point of the vehicle is to sell and perform all around the world.
100% agree and the beauty of that is that you keep everyone happy, people who like to drive it stock have no issue and on and off-road behaviour will likely be better with longer arms. People who want bigger could do so without jumping trough hoops so everyone is happy. Thats approach to me makes a good foundation for a purpose build 4wd.
I'm speculating that the US petrol (B58) version can accommodate a 100L tank probably because there's no provision required for the Ad Blue reservoir... which is described elsewhere as having a 17L capacity for the B57 diesel...
@@denism2171 Sounds like a good speculation to me! 10% increased fuel is good in my book. I can get far enough for my use, which is a typical use... weekend warrior type with very occasional very long trip.
Hi Buddy I have mine on order as we in Aus will get them before you guys cant figure out why you get a 100 litre tank and we don't . I may have to ask them. With past experience with Nissan patrols if you fit 35 tyres it is common to fit a 50mm lift kit which does not require replacing steering arms as cambers are not affected. 100 mm lift and you will have to modify the suspension.
@@johnswinkels4383 excited for you brother! I've got the reservation payment in back in February in case I feel good about it when we get our turn. I feel fortunate to see all of you guy's videos before we get pressed to make a decision. Hopefully the geometry is still good with 35" tires, I just kinda doubt it given the length of the control arms, causing geometry to change lots for every inch lifted. I'm guessing a 3" lift or so would be good... give or take. But in OZ it might be perfect as is, if they figured out the "death wobble" shown in the video, and you don't want to lift much. I wonder how long the control arms are compared to the Nissan. She's new and exciting either way and I hope to see your video as you're up to some shenanigans!
Yep after the prototype drive, some of your points were the deal breaker for me. Got my reservation deposit back and bought a 79.
Later after seeing the price i would have paid, I'm still ahead.
An extremely professional and thorough review with expert knowledge of the subject. Every 4-wheel driver's gold standard, let the manufacturers take notice.
The real deal is not the pitch but the patch the vehicle can cope with.
I guess it depends on your needs, when i priced one up, it was quite competitive with a LC and surpassed it in load carrying and towing. The foot well business I didn't know about. That is a major failing in my books. The fact that it comes with a BMW diesel and transmission is the best option for a European maker, but not so sure compared to Japanese/Thailand made vehicles.
I’d say it’s better then Nissans modern diesels and just below a Mitsubishi
@@Owhunter-ki3fn I'm sure their engineering is superior, but if it breaks what will it cost to fix and will the guy with the spanner at dingo piss creek know how to do the job?
I fully concur with your commentary and btw this is a great discussion.
The concept is fantastic and I actually like the car a lot but for me, I will wait for a couple of iterations to see how everything performs.
Having a BMW engine is great and I know they are very reliable but a concern for AU as everything german costs a fortune to repair/replace.
Pricing is also a massive issue, as I priced one with my requirements and came to $118k before stamp duty and LCT, I think is way to high.
So at this stage I will be watching with anticipation to see how everything evolves in terms of price and specs.
Cheers
Apparently they avoid lct which is interesting. agricultural rating. i,m going to a drive day tomorrow so will vheck that out
Great video mate. I definitely agree with you with regard to the space for your feet. It looks to me that it was designed for the LHD market. I went from a Y61 patrol to a new Jeep Commander and it’s foot well was cramped compared to the Patrol & horrible over the long distance. Even my 76 series is cramped but I’d say better compared to the Ineos.
Totally agree
$85K in the USA . Gas mileage and service key to my thoughts on the INEOS G. Fact is, it’s not overpriced from my perspective. Especially in the USA. Vehicles are used for the same purposes here, but in reality it’s a fantastic option vis a vie the G-wagon or current Defender. In 2001 the original US spec car was $72.5K. Not a gray market model from Europa @ $135K. I don’t want a mall parking lot poser / mommy-mobile. No offense Moms .. frankly the new Toyota 300 series, not sold in the USA currently, is probably the best 4x4 on the market worldwide. Cult status, and bulletproof for resale and reliability. JMO ..
great review....would be interesting to do a direct comparison to a stock Toyota Prado and how both can be modified / costs etc, not talking hard core rock climbing but 95% of what people use their 4x4 for in Australia, think you may be surprised which wins !!
this DID NOT FOLLOW THE BRIEF--- 'BUILD A UTILITY 4X4. this is a DISCOVERY for posseurs to tow a horse box, and those are the buyers, who will INSTANTLY GET FED UP of the weird footwell and DANGEROUS overhead switches. the centre console is also dangerous as checking speed etc means TAKING YOUR EYES OFF THE ROAD to a different viewing position.....it should be 4 CYLINDER DIESEL for torque, MANUAL GEARBOX and it should be able to be worked on BY OWNER. bmw engine was BIG MISTAKE. and cringeworthy BODGES like the oil cooler set on bottom of transfer box with a puny pump that will never work in -30 degrees makes it look like just another DISCOVERY from lr.
Wow. That seating error is an immediate deal breaker. As a seating professional for over 30 years, I'm impressed you made that your first point. Overall, your observations are very astute. Thank you.
Thanks for watching!
Actually, I don't think the Grenadier was ever intended to be the perfect 4wd. It's not the target market. It's way too heavy, too long, too low and too wide. As you note, this isn't a vehicle that's friendly to modifications, at least not yet. I don't think it was intended to be such a vehicle. Anyone who can afford it is unlikely to heavily modify it or they'd choose a better platform. No one is buying a Grenny (I may trademark that) to go rock crawling. I think the target market positioning for this vehicle is where LR used to be in the late 90's (for US anyway). A decently rugged and capable vehicle, bought by owners who consider a rough gravel road as "offroading" LR is a luxury vehicle now...too expensive to risk a real offroad adventure. In addition, there's WAY too much electronic stuff to break. We all know LR's reputation with wiring and electronics (Lucas quality control is a perfect example of an oxymoron). LR's were very unreliable before they added all the complexity (I've owned two Discos...loved them except for the bad reliability). Yes, it would be great to have a true utilitarian 110 replacement that's simple to mod and repair. But unfortunately, those days are long gone I'm afraid.
Interesting and thought provoking. Stefan, What a lot of work it must be to put these videos together, not only the production with all the clips inserted into your videos but the time taken to research everything. Amazing work. Do you do this all yourself? On the Grenadier, No its not the perfect 4WD. Like any motor manufacturers they engage marketing companies to sell the vehicle. Most of the people marketing these things probably never have driven on a gravel road, if they have a drivers license at all as they invariably would live in cities. So the hype can be disregarded largely. As you say, in Low range it can go really fast down a hill. That must be good! But what do we mean when we want a 4WD? I have been in the 4wd scene in Australia for 25 years in 4wd clubs and I can not see a bright future for 4WDing. Young people are abandoning clubs as we in clubs try and encourage responsible use of 4wds , the authorities are closing access everywhere. The kind of shots of rock crawling you showed in the clip are being looked at disapprovingly from the conservation groups and forest rangers. As more people go offroad more regulations are being drawn up. 35 inch tyres and bigger make tracks that were passable in a normal family 4wds impossible as they cut them up, digging large ruts. I have first hand experience of this with rangers we work with on adopt a track using their standard vehicles and not being able to get through. Their reaction is to close the track. Then people come along and cut locks, further reaction to this is , install cameras and fine people. So do we need massive lifted and large tyred 4wds anymore? Pretty soon no as there will be few places apart from pay to play 4wd parks that you will be able to use them. For outback touring, lifts and large tyres are not needed. Therefore the Grenadier is probably a player in this segment of the market. I also think looks is a way more important factor than it seems. If we were all just rational we would draw up spread sheets and compare features, capabilities and pricing and end up with a Pajero on top of the list. People buy on gut feeling and looks is very important. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but i do like the look of the Grenadier. (But some people think a Citreon 2cv is beautiful as well ) Older 4wds are very capable and simple so many will keep them going while they can afford to run them. The problem is that they are getting tired and needy, (especially my Land Rovers unfortunately) and unless you have a very good mechanic or have the time, workshop and skills to DIY many people will upgrade sooner or later. Its all a compromise.
I like your review verry much, i just would like to add that the mercedes G Wagon and Land Rover from the 90s have proven that Europe can built good, reliable (i know, debateable when looking at the land rover...) 4x4s, and its not about the country of origin.
It seems like opinions from of Grenadier from "real" Off roading people of Australia are kinda constant. (Not those "Reviewers" that think G63AMG is a perfect offroad vehicle) and footwell for Left handed driving versions is not looking good.... Offroaders need precise control of pedals and comfort driving position!(just like all vehicles. But precise accel and brake control is kinda more important in offroaders)
And grenadier does not looks like "no compromise" off roader. And price is too high. Not so moddable. I don't see why to choose this over bronco with sasquatch package. Even gearing is weird.
And HDC is not equipped as standard equipment??? And can't add Lockers in low trim level? Everything is wrong.
Low hanging parts without Protection and low ground clearance for not compromised off roader.
Make hanging parts to be higher position is even jeep do when they design a new vehicle. Like some undercarriage desigh changes from JK to JL.
It "looks like" a Land rover and it seems like just a Land rover. Posh vehicle.
wow I thought the only shortcoming was the BMW engine. This was very informative
And some people say the BMW engine is a strength hahaha
I am always amazed by how most of the negative reviews come from Australia. Seriously … how big of a market do you think Australia represents for most of the world’s manufacturers??? Right sided driving ? Lol
hm Australia had the most pre-orders of any country at some stage
Very thorough review and I agree with your points, therefore its not the best off roader after all!
I had high hopes when I heard about the project sadly it has to many compromises
It almost seems like this vehicle was built for the U.S. market. Left-hand drive, without the bump out and fancy seats the U.S. market appreciates.
1982 v8 landrover cost $12,000 and is still going great. you just need the basics. however the left foot is cramped by the transmission tunel..you would think this would be fixed in a new car. the next one i buy will probaly be a toyota troop carrier.
Comes in only scum transmission. Instant disinterest. I’m fine doing “difficult” routes in Moab with my 3 pedal bronco - the crawl gear leads to sublime crawl ratio in 4L.
As with all modern 4wds no ground clearance to much complexity . BMW power is fine on paper and in Europe . But this is supposedly suitable for Australia , Africa and Asia. A toy for the aristocrasy in reality.
You have fallen into the trap as a journalist...chritism before it has gone through the initial innovation cycle.The promise is a basic platform which you modify to your own likes...Most buyers want the basic quality platform..as sales increase it will attract third party accessory suppliers. they have plans for many modifications as a continual evolution culture. Yes the prices will be steeper than cheaper mass production established manufacturers. Many point the finger to the engineering company in Austria as trying to create a modern Gwagon replacement.
Maybe you should team up with The Australian journalist who wants to take it across australia ?
Why on earth did the put such a small fuel tank in the grenadier ? Other than that they look ok and friends that have driven the prototypes said they are not bad (Except for the small fuel tank. My landcrusier has 150l factory and friends who do remote area touring run over 250l with aftermarket tanks)
Other than that it will be interesting to see how they hold together once people start using them.. They advertise that they did 1,000,000 km of testing, but remember there are individual 70 series landcruisers that have done more km that than . So it will be interesting to see how the Grenadiers go once they have big distances in harsh terrain on them
We have 2 tractors than need AdBlue. The tank is 100l smaller than the same without. It’s an expensive pain in the ass and if you can’t get it, then your stuffed.
Thanks for the thoughtful review. I was very enthusiastic about the grenadier but they should have done better than a Geländewagen developed 50 years ago.
Totally agree
The foot well on a RHD Jeep Grand Cherokee is like that and very uncomfortable on a long drive so a valid comment.
The fuel tank is the biggest miss in my opinion.
I think it’s because they’re primarily designed as a LHD vehicle
@@dpd6401 Absolutely, on the later models the foot operated parking brake really was in a bad position on RHD models but would have been fine in the LHD models.
One could not have expressed in a better way . Well done mate 👌🏽
ie...to be blunt...behind closed doors they really dont care...as you may have guessed from their lack of responses to your queries...as has happened for decades with land rover
More brittle British engineering? Not convinced the company will last long with a single product that has such a vague target market.
Crikey, comments are harsh. Stephan has a critical review style which evidently is miss understood. Not saying that I always agree however I respect the method used to review products. In saying that I must say that in my experience Harrop E lockers rate well above ARB but second to TJM ;) Cheers and thanks for the content
I agree
What you're looking for is an extreme 4wd car. Nobody builds that at least not for mass production. Looks like you already have some extremely modified 80s or 90s Land Cruisers, why you not happy with that? Wait 10 years and you will be able to modify an old Grenadier to your liking with all the after market parts that you can get on ur old LC. For what you're trying to do stick to your old proven Land Cruisers.
You’ll know if it’s worth it or not by watching the USED Car Market within 12-24 month period…
Me, like Landrover this thing isn’t something that interest me.. Japanese, Austrian, German or Russian are the only things that I’ll invest in for making overlanders.