Rhaegar stopped being loyal to his father before Robert’s Rebellion started. When Aerys was held hostage at Duskendale, Tywin was willing to let him be killed, knowing that Rhaegar would become king in his place, which he openly said in front of Rhaegar and the others present. If Rhaegar had survived the Battle of the Trident, Aerys would still have been deposed after all the cruelty and murder he committed.
Well it's just a theory but probably true , the turney at Harrenhal was organized by Rhaegar to convince the lords to depose his father , even before riding to meet Robert in the field he said to Jaime , when i come back changes will be made. He was talking about deposing his fatheronce the war was over , but never could .
Indeed, still Aerys was deeply suspicious of his son and his popularity and his arrival at the tourney at Harrenhal was unexpected as he hadn't left the capital in years since the Defiance at Duskendale. If Rhaeger had won on the Trident and the Lannister Army now at his back approaching Kings Landing, Aerys might have well carried out his plot to torch the city, rather than be deposed by Rhaeger or worse killed by Tywin, both of whom detested each other at this stage of the story.
If Rhaegar won, the first thing he would have done - with an army behind himself - is call a counsel to declare Aerys incapacitated and have himself named regent.
No , he had fight in behalf of his father legitimizing his actions What do you mean by Rhaegar won ?? Oh ,you mean kill all the starks , Tully's, arryns, and baratheons , sure a great king 🥴
Sansa marrying Valerion makes no sense since he's the second son. What makes better sense is Rhaenys marrying Robb to appease the North, Valerion marrying Arianne to appease the Dornish and Aegon marrying Margaery since they need the crops and livestock for the coming winter and the Reach supported Rhaegar from the start of the rebellion.
@@sethh1943don't know what you mean. Viserys will hold very little importance to the Targaryans and without the plot going like cannon Dragons never happen
@@thatsoundslikeheresytomeyo4960He'd have to get over it. He would be surrounded. If he went to war he'd have to fight AT LEAST the Baratheons and the storm lands. The North, Most likely the dornish because they hate Lannisters, and once little finger sees that all those houses are against the Lannisters. You'd get Petyr convincing lysa to also have the Arryns go against the Lannisters as well. And because they aren't stupid. You'd have the Tyrells either A. Joining in on that dogpile, or B. Stay neutral. Tywin is smart and would see a lost cause when he saw one and sue for peace pretty fast. In exchange he would likely ask for his children and grandchildren to be spared. Which Stannis likely wouldn't grant, but, with Ned being there and likely still hand of the king. Ned might talk Stannis into it and as a result would probably grant it. Sending Tommen, Joffrey, and Jaime to the nights watch and Myrcella and Cersei to the silent sisters. After that Stannis is king, Eddard is still probably hand. Tywin is bruised and beaten and dishonored because of what his children did. And is forced to name Tyrion his heir, or name Kevan his heir to casterly rock.
The rebellion formally started when Jon Arryn called his bannermen rather than hand over Ned and Robert. It was called Robert’s Rebellion he sat on the Iron Throne. Ned wasn’t interested in it. And the Tully’s were in with the Starks. It’s more of a Northern Rebellion than Stormer own.
Exactly the north lost more and had a reason to fight Robert was just mad over a girl that was never going to be his he was in love with the idea of her was still gonna be the same a fat drunk he only had this rage because the Targaryen were doing whatever they wanted and that made him feel some type of way
@@stevendalloo2433 accourding to robert himself it was all about lyanna He got everything but her and not having her crushed him at the end regardless of the rest Besides how do you think it came to the point of Aerys asking for their heads? It's due to the actions taken after lyannas supposed kidnapping
Exactly, Jon and Ned would have easily continued the fight and potentially still killed/defeated Rhaegar and the Targaryans, the only thing that changes is who sits the Iron Throne, which honestly anyone would have been better suited for it than Robert
@@SamTheMan0425Robert admitted it, the throne and power made him soft weak fat, he should have been a great warrior known for his battlefield strength and military prowess. If lets say they told people she chose to go and Rhaegar got his marriage annulled publicly he'd have problems with Dorne but at least it wouldnt have been a whole Rebellion Robert would be hurt but compensated he'd have his pride he could have been made a general of the army had any woman he wanted but not the one he lied to himself was his soulmate because of his love for Ned they were raised as brother's he loved Ned enough to lie and say he was the way he was because she was stolen from him, each time he said it the lie becomes easier and easier until he believed it himself. Robert was a warrior not a warrior king. He enjoyed the finer things power allowed him and he was a glutton for wine women and spending the wealth the realm provided. Ned would have made a far better king because power is best given to those who dont seek it or crave it and they are less likely to abuse it once put in a position of power. Ned would have been known as the Wise Wolf. Everyone forgets Jon is a Starkgaryen and he has the best qualities of both houses and is fair to low born and nobles alike he treats men on their merit not on their birthright or lack therof. #DragonOfTheNorth
I think Rhaegar would name Jon Aemon after his great-uncle Maester Aemon. Rhaegar and Aemon conversed quite a bit thru ravens about the prophecy and Aemon helped Rhaegar figure out that he himself wasn't the prince who was promised, but one of his heirs would be. Also, throw in the fact that the greatest Targaryen knight to ever live was named Aemon "The dragon knight," and I think that's the name he is given.
I think he would name jon viserys, since he was trying to create aegon, rhaenys and visenya but jon isn't a girl so viserys would be the male version of visenya.
I agree he already had a son named Aegon, who was still alive and well at the time, I think Jon should have been Aemon Targaryen the Dragon of the North Prince of prophecy.
I disagree about Ned's reaction... he actually was never angry or mistrustful of Rhaegar. Robert and Brandon Stark (Ned's brother, the one who strangled to death while watching their father get burned alive) were the hotheaded ones. Ned also knew Rhaegar, at least a little (enough to ponder to himself in the books that Rhaegar wasn't the type to frequent brothels), and if he knew Rhaegar well enough to know that, then he knew Rhaegar well enough to know that he wasn't mad like Aerys. I imagine that Ned's feelings when Lyanna was supposedly "abducted" by Rhaegar, were feelings of confusion. The anger only came when his father and brother were tortured to death for a completely imagined "treason." But Ned never held that against Rhaegar, or Lyanna. He loved Lyanna... and he knew perfectly well that she was never in love with Robert. Nor was Robert truly in love with her... he was in love with the _idea_ of her, but Robert imagined Lyanna as some sort of beautiful angel, when she was actually... a lot like Arya. That's how she's described in the books... Arya's compared to Lyanna a _lot._ Not even remotely what Robert believed her to be. Anyway... Ned's war was always against Aerys, not Rhaegar. Aerys is the one who slaughtered his brother and father. Upon learning that Rhaegar had a plan to remove Aerys, Ned would be all in. I do like that you touched on the plan Rhaegar had to remove his father, btw. Though I wish you went into more detail about what you think that plan may have originally entailed.
The way he mentioned house arrest, I imagined a similar situation to Alicent Hightower when Aegon III was proclaimed king after Aegon II was killed by poison. They simply kept her confined to her own chambers and she was allowed visits with her granddaughter until she frightened her to tears by suggesting she slit Aegon III throat while he slept. I don't know if there would have been a point of putting Aery's on trial considering he was obviously insane. Better to just keep him from doing any more harm to anyone and leave it at that. Allowing him to die of old age and keeping him reasonable comfortable until then would keep Rhaegar from being a kin-slayer or king-slayer. The most important thing is to keep Aery's from interfering with peace and from doing further harm to anybody else.
@@FusionCoreHoarder she was a spoiled 14 year old who ran off with a married man and caused a war. that all these characters wax poetically about her is more unreliable narrator than anything else.
To be honest Big dog nobody cares about the books some of them didn’t even come out when the show did the only ones that did were a knight of the 7 Kingdoms black fire rebellion dance of the dragon the Golden Empire the story of the conqueror the King of the north and The last Targaryen and the Valerian Empire every other book was written during the show and came out during the show and near the end so all this “b-but in the books it says this” is cringe and annoying the show is a live representation of George RR Martins story making it cannon And any other books that come after it aren’t
@@JohnJohn-bz1lqthats not how canon works and if the books do have a better ending if thry do come out why not consider them the main storyline considering they are the person who made its true representation
@@LuciusYano that doesn’t make any sense if I’m directing a show about a story That came from a few books, the script and every element of my shows written by the author of the books books but some elements are different my show isn’t canon as it’s different in the books that came before the show are the original since it came out first but if new books come out which include elements from the show then are non canon or legends but if the author instead claims the show to be canon (which he has) then any material that comes out after the main show has been concluded those books are now canon or if the author includes every material of game of the show and every book that has come out and is being worked on to be canon like what happened with Naruto
@@JohnJohn-bz1lqyeah thats ridiculous the show cuts out SO MUCH from books its completely different and hes said multiple times he wished certain storyliens or characters were closer to the book just like hes praised some characters from thw show as being more fleshed out then in the books but most of those characters had already died anyway and just had extra scenes they didnt completely change them like they do w major characters like jon who is unrecognizable from his book counterpart. also if martin felt tje shows were main canon he would not make sure the stories being adapted are either finished or are going to be finished by there end like HOTD and dunk and egg will be. got s8 pissed the bed whatever sentiment he mau have had about show being the proper canon changed as soon as those characters started to heavily divulge from their book counterparts. again it would be useless to continue writing his books if they werent the canon/real story to him hed just have a heavy hand in the shows
@@JohnJohn-bz1lqthough i will say w certain media franchises this is the case i dont believe it is ANY LONGER for asoiaf/got like i said i just dont see why hes made such a big deal to hbo about only doing completed stories or stories that he can complete or release small quicker novellas of as needed like dunk and egg which even that one is the only spin off where source material isnt mostly done or completely done..which is probably why the long night spin off, the robert rebellion spin off, the doom of valyria spin off, and the jon snow spin off were not made even though they were advertised/spoken about like they were pretty much going to happen
I disagree about Elia. She would see Jon as a serious threat to her children. Remember the Blackfyres anyone Plus Jon is a visible reminder of how Rhaegar humiliated her in front of all of Westeros. I doubt she would be a mother figure for him. Jon would also be surrounded by intrigue and viewed with suspicion by many so I doubt he would be happier growing up in the Red Keep then he was in Winterfell. Also would Ned really betroth Sansa to a bastard?
At this point in time, Elia's beloved brother, Oberon, already has like 3 or 4 bastards running around and her family dotes on them. I mean, sure, she would be hurt by her husband's adultery, she's not made of stone. But the Dornish are known for being very passionate people, she would be more understanding of her husband's actions than most women. The Blackfyre rebellion happened because King Aegon IV made it abundently clear he preferred his bastard son over his trueborn son, to the point of spreading rumors that his wife had been unfaithful and his trueborn son was actually fathered by someone else. I don't see anything like that happening this time around, Rhaegar wouldn't try to claim that his son Aegon was fathered by someone else. He's not a hateful person like King Aegon IV.
@@cosmopeaches2604 again, difference between open pursuits of other partners as a prince , and going behind everyone's back to have an affair that helped kicked off a war leading to a child who could be competition for her children.
Honestly if the Targaryens were smart, they would have classed up their families bastards. Call them dragons and try to at least marry them off to members of the other great houses where they would take that house’s name like how Aagon brother during the conquest
Not so sure they would be accepting of rhaegar creating an alternative heir to aegon. Dorne may not villafy bastards but they are not treating them equal to trueborn children.
It seems weird to me that Rhaegar was hiding with Lyanna in Dorne, in a tower near the main road, and managed to snuggle a person (most likely related to Hightowers somehow) to marry them but Elia’s family or even Elia herself (who knew about Rhaegar’s obsession with the prophecy) didn’t know about that abd even allowed it.
I suspect they knew. Perhaps the reason why rhaegar needed so much time to return to the capital was that he had to reasure the martels that aegon would stay his heir?
It was almost certainly with the help of the Daynes. While we don't know where the Tower of Joy was located, it was in the Mountains of Dorne, which is also where Starfall is, the castle of House Dayne, where Arthur Dayne's brother was the Lord. Arthur was the most likely person for Rhaegar to have confided in, and when they need to go somewhere with his new paramour, Dayne would have said "I know a place..." and brought them to a tower in or near his family's lands. Ned's connection to Ashara Dayne would also explain how he found them as well. There is also the point that although only a single companion of his survived the fight to reach Lyanna, he recalls how "they" found him holding her hand. So Lyanna had someone with her as well. Knights, especially from such distinguished and high-ranking families, would not have considered themselves capable of taking care of a pregnant woman or helping her give birth (or seen it beneath their dignity), so, again, they would have turned to the Daynes of Starfall to provide a female attendant &/or midwife. We know that in the current day, the Lord of Starfall, presumably the son of Arthur's & Ashara's lordly brother, is a boy named Edric Dayne, who is Beric Dondarrion's squire. Edric, known as Ned, was nursed by a Dayne family retainer named Wylla, whom he believes to have been Jon Snow's mother. Wylla is also the name Ned gives Robert for Jon's mother. What it seems is that Wylla was the woman who helped Lyanna during her last days, and she served the Daynes for "years and years" before Lord Edric was born, so that is how the Daynes would have known where Arthur was, and how Ned learned, from the woman he or Brandon hooked up with at Harrenhal. Due to her feelings for whichever Stark brother she had gotten close to, Ashara would have been sympathetic for Ned's desire to reunite with his sister, and told them where to find her. This resulted in her brother being killed. Ned returned Dawn, the ancestral sword of House Dayne, to Starfall and they in turn, appear to have agreed to cover his story. If Wylla was in service to the Daynes of Starfall, she would not have had a whole lot of opportunities to conceive a child with Ned sometime after his marriage to Catelyn, so (some of) the Daynes almost certainly knew the truth, or at least that Jon was not Wylla's son. If Ned wanted her to pretend otherwise, he would have needed a very good reason for it. Anyway, despite a Stark hooking up with Ashara at Harrenhal and getting her with child, which was subsequently stillborn, and then killing their brother Arthur, the Daynes retained a good enough impression of Ned to not only keep his confidence all these years and actively support his story by telling Lord Edric that his wet-nurse bore Lord Stark a bastard son, and even give him the same nickname as Eddard. But all this tragedy would very much explain why Ashara committed suicide shortly after the Rebellion and why Ned is so protective of her memory. Ashara Dayne lost the man she loved, either to the Mad King, or to an arranged marriage, and her efforts to help his family resulted in her brother's death. Her close friend and liege lady, Princess Elia was brutally murdered along with her little children, whom Ashara had probably held and played with and helped care for, and Ashara herself has lost the only child she could ever have of the man she fell for at the last great day for the kingdom. If she had any post-partum depression on top of that, it explains her suicide (or fleeing to Essos to serve as a religious tutor to a prince in hiding). And it explains why Ned is so furious to hear her name being suggested as Jon's mother.
I agree. Most likely he had to convince the martels that aegon would stay his heir though honestly that was still pretty dangerous. With jon beeing born as a boy and with not beeing of dornish origin there may actually a significant group of people that see him as the true heir
But does rhaegar actually know avout the white walkers? Aegons prophecy just speaks about a threat from the north. The wildlings would fit the bill. Also why should ned believe in rhaegars prophecy? If someone would tell me such a thing i would believe them to be mad. From neds perspective this seems to be the more logical conclusion
@@CorvoThanso people like bran and the wildings having magic abilities to warg into animals and humans is believable but talking about prophecy is were you draw the line and called them mad you do realise rhaenger was right the prophecy is real.
@@mohammadhosseini6675 well people in westeros also dont truly believe in wargs anymore. And rhaegar was definitly wrong. Aegon can not be the prince who was promised
@@CorvoThan He was right about the Night King and the ice zombie invasion and he will 100% listen when he hears dead people are coming back to life, and the nights watch need more men he will probably send a platoon in cycles of maybe 3 to 6 months or more and his own men will confirm the Nights watch claim that the others threat is real ironically the commonder of the nights watch that told Jon it doesn’t matter who sits on the iron throne when in fact it does matter and his wrong because someone like Rhaeger will actually help as well as Robb Stark because of his family which is Jon says take this seriously send help than he will.
If Rhaegar killed Robert I think Ned and Jon Arryn would retreat back to the North and the Vale. Both kingdoms are pretty much invasion proof unless Rhaegar gets a dragon or three. So I agree Rhaegar would use Lyanna to negotiate an end of hostilities with Ned. Rhaegar wants to be king of 7 kingdoms not 5 so he’d have to negotiate to get a United Kingdom to face the Long Night.
Lyanna would've been dead from childbirth. There is no using her for peace. What would've happened, is that they both would've immediately retreated for a bit for reinforcements before marching back with more men, and moving to face Rhaegar again, or if it was a bad defeat then they would defend and both become kings of their regions. The Tullys would've possibly lost their Lord Paramountship, though.
Which is BS. just think for a second how could nobody check a letter from the most important figure in roberts rebellion who also happened to be the crown prince? D&D were so gdamn stvpid!
@@harukrentz435 actually... this kinda stuff happened through out history all the time. Information being withheld or hidden by loyalists in wars so go in someone's favor only for it to be discovered years later. It happened a lot in WWII and the American Civil War. Think about how many times you've lost important documents or people you know have. Tbh it being stuffed away in the citadel and forgotten is probably the most realistic thing that's happened lol. Not to mention the maesters probably wanted it hidden and forgotten after Rhaegars death. It probably would have been made public knowledge had Rhaegar won Roberts Rebellion.
Why do people take Dorne's chill nature as incompetence. Their Society basically hinges on "we are all people but we all have our places". Oberyn and Ellaria where in love had four kids and could not get married bc she was a bastard. Dorian loves his nieces and adores his daughter's friends but I doubt they got the same level of treatment she got in captivity and it's seen in their individual punishments which were more severe than Arianne's. Also how's Martell is a prideful house there is no way that you're not going to feel slighted by the birth of Jon passion or not his birth brought a war that could have killed their princess and her children and did kill one of their princes. They will never let Rhaeger make a Deal that incentive the North or elevate them over Dorne
People seem to have the strange opinion that in dorne they accept everything around sex, gender and bastards. So logically elia will have no problem with rhaegar getting a second wife and from this wife a son that is a real threat to her own sons right to inherite the throne. She would love the boy because ...in dorne they let bastards inherite their parents seats
@alexmartin3143 neither side will be able to accomplish anything. If the targaryens couldn't conquer dorne even with dragons, good luck to the starks, and the dornish have no way to get past moat cailin as they don't even have a navy.
for Jace and Helaena the greens are forced to choose between her or her brother's lives as she would become a hostage for the blacks, the war would still happen because much of the realm would always support Aegon over Rhaenyra or Jace.
You should lean into the scenario with multiple part. Show how Rhaegar could use his sister and brother to secure more alliances and the 16 year prep to the long night.
Or the alternate Dance of the Dragons/Blackfyre Rebellion that can result from it. Heck, you can even throw in the YG plot in the books to spice it up.
Stannis did love Robert and Renly. The problem is, they gave nothing back to him and inspired great resentment in him. Part of why Stannis wants the throne is to fill the void created by Robert's lack of respect or appreciation for his labors. It's why he's so resentful toward the Starks, because Ned got the love from Robert that Stannis was denied.
Daenerys mother would probably still die giving birth to her and Cersei has a profecy that she will be a queen until replaced so she could be a likely third wife to Rhegar.
@@darko-man8549 The prophecy came years before the timeline shifted, and Cersei's personality does not appear to have markedly changed between when she was 17 and the shift occurred, and the present day. Tywin has also not changed his personality at all, and he was planning to marry her to a crown prince or king since the day she was born. So Tywin will be looking to marry her advantageously. Contra the video's nonsense, he will most likely use the more uncertain prospects of the rebels to make high demands for his support. Tywin carries grudges and never lets go of them, but pays them back in the most brutal means he can. He is NOT going to come crawling back to Aerys just because Aerys is winning, he is going to make Aerys ask for his help, and extract concessions for it. Once Rhaegar wins the battle, those concessions look increasingly unlikely to be forthcoming, Aerys is still going to be all paranoid about Tywin and less likely to believe that he needs him. In the hypothetical in the video, Tywin's most probable course of action is to offer his help to the rebels for Cersei's marriage to Stannis, and his own elevation to the Handship, among other things, and then throw his own power against the crown. We will then still have a Queen Cersei who only cares about power, who has no love for her husband, because Stannis will not treat her the way she wants, and who will be so obsessed with her position and ephemeral things like status and power that she will make the prophecy come true in this timeline as well. The point of prophecies like this is not to give her a magic fate she cannot escape, but rather to set her up with a self-fulfilling course of action. Cersei could easily deny the prophecy by creating a life full of family and friendships and worthwhile projects and activities, the sort of thing that no one CAN take away, and even as late as handing over the regency and returning to Casterly Rock. But because the only things she can "hold dear" are power and status, which everyone is fighting for, and no one can hold onto forever, she is making the prophecy come true. Because of her paranoia about losing power, she cannot share it, and cannot trust any person who might be capable of beating her, nor any woman who might possibly be younger and more beautiful (and given how time and human aging works, every day the number of women who are younger and more beautiful increases) and so she makes enemies at every turn, and creates people who will try to take her power or status from her because of how she mistreats them. It's the same way the prophecy drove her to make an enemy of Tyrion and also of Jaime, who I think is the actual younger brother to whom it refers. If she had ignored the prophecy and been a loving and kindly sister to both men, neither one would ever want her dead, no matter what crimes she commits and would go down fighting for her. Basically, the prophecy is not going to be any different when young Cersei visits the fortune-teller with her OTL future ahead of her, or a future where Robert is slain by Rhaegar, because she is the same suspicious, jealous, selfish person, with the same basic nature, who will make the same sort of mistakes, regardless of the name or nature of the king to whom she is married.
@@lumarrandom8144 Wow, can't read OR spell. Am I supposed to feel chastened or flattered? The TL;DR version is that the prophecy Cersei got as a girl would not likely change, because Tywin would still force her into a loveless marriage with a potential king, enabling all the details to come true, and not creating enough of a change for Cersei herself to be a different person. The prophecy will come true because of who Cersei IS and how she behaves, not because of fate. Cersei will still be the same person in the Rhaegar wins timeline.
One problem with the initial argument for the change in the timeline; the North, Vale, and Riverland forces arrived shortly after Robert lands the killing blow. If Rhygar takes his time to win, then the North hell bent on vengeance will arrive the the Vale and Riverland troops before Robert could be killed. Not to mention the if Rhygar does kill Robert as you say his men are in disarray and would be unable to stop the fresh troops from sweeping them from the field. Rhygar is almost certain to die if he engages with Robert. For Rhygar to win he has to hold back and when the North, Vale, and Riverlands arrive fall back and fight a series of running battles to keep the Rebel army after him and blind to it's terrain until Rhygar can get a field advantage to counter the larger force of the rebels. We can't forget Robert was too badly injured to continue the war and Ned Stark became leader of Robert's Rebellion. Therefore the rebellion's name would change. If Robert died as the war was the insult to the Stark family foremost. Lyanna was taken, Rickard and Brandon Stark killed by the king. The Starks and the North have the most reason for war. Not Robert. Robert was the loudest voice over the insult of Lyanna's taking. The result of this change would be a name change and a great council to choose a new king. Tywin would be afraid to deliver kings landing like he did if Robert was dead because Ned was married to Catlynn and Ned was know to be a quite and kind individual. Tywin wouldn't be able to marry Cersie off to Ned nor would he risk Ned's unknown reaction to the underhanded tactics we have in the books
@@AwesomeReshiram Yes for the Rebels Stannis has the stronger blood claim to the throne which Robert used to justify his kingship. For the Royalists it would go to Viserys would be next in line. So viserys would still go to Dragonstone with his mother. And Ned Stark marches to Kingslanding with the North, Vale, and Riverland forces intact and the Stormlanders that survived the battle at the Ruby Ford. During the March south the Rebel army would be too large to attack directly from the remaining "loyal" lords and Tywin wouldn't march to sack Kingslanding. This would put the Reach in a bad situation which their siege of Storm's End. They'll have to choose to lift the siege to either join the Rebels or lift the siege to help Kingslanding. This will let Stannis rally new troops and the Rebels would make him king as he would be free to marry for alliance.
It was more than Arthur Dayne & Gerold Hightower at the Tower of Joy. That’s just what they depicted in the show. Another Kingsguard, Oswell Whent was there in the books.
make a what if Aegon V didn't die in The Tragedy of summerhall, and had managed to hatch dragon eggs, let's say 3 dragon eggs to make it interesting, how would that change history from that point o,n with no one dying in summerhall and dragons returning to the world?
@@dang2320cruel as Maegor, not as skilled a killer, and a far smaller younger dragon. I bet he’d have taken his psychosis out on the small folk instead of landed lords, since he wouldn’t have the support of as many powerful yes men as early.
21:59 my brother who is depressed said to me the other day “I didn’t ask to be born” and as I told him “no one asks to be born it’s impossible to ask to be born!”. Your comment where you said Jon didn’t ask to be born reminded me of that
20:12 yes they literally do. In one episode in season 7, gilly literally reads about a septon annulling the marriage to elia and marrying rhaegar to lyanna
Ned could not have actually taken the throne, Jaime saying that was nonsense. Robert's claim to the throne was supported because his grandmother was a Targaryean and because house Baratheon was founded by Aegon the Conquerors bastard brother Orys.
Huh an idea I’ve literally never heard before, I’ve heard Daeron, Aemon, Jaehaerys even names like Daemon but never Rhaegar because that wouldn’t be his name, never in asoiaf history has a father called their son their own name at least if I remembering correctly, it just isn’t a trend like in own history
@@cosmiccollie5032kind of makes sense though since he thought he literally Was the main character and that his third child would be Azor Ahai/ The Chosen One so in an act of arrogance Rhaegar II doesnt sound too far fetched.
Viserys. Given the names of his other children and his whole "the Dragon must have three heads" Rhaegar was almost certainly trying to replicate the conquering siblings. So having already had a Rhaenys and an Aegon, he would have expected to have a daughter with Lyanna who would then be named Visenya and be the third head of his dragon and sister-wife to his other children. Viserys seems to be the male equivalent of Visenya. And, yes, I know they are out of order, but it seems like he began to believe the prophecy referred to his son shortly before, or upon his birth. Especially since the prophecy cites birth conditions, so maybe he decided that the circumstances fit, so it had to be his new baby boy. Rhaenys was the eldest child and her name could have been chosen without any regard for prophecy as a feminine reference to his name, just as he was named similarly to his mother, Rhaella. So then, he has a son, decides that he is the Prince Who Was Promised, and names him Aegon, and hey, he's already got a Rhaenys, so yeah, this can work, we just need a Visenya...
I really like this video! There's just one thing I think is almost definitely incorrect: Elia's opinion on the matter would probably have no bearing on the potential annulment/plural marriage situation, and it could potentially be considered legally valid. It might be considered dubious for other reasons, but not because of her stance on it. Should it? Yes. But in a legal sense, her assent isn't required. The marriage laws of Westeros are largely religious, so most likely it would just require a high enough religious leader. It's also likely that there's an established process for this (Renly expected Robert to set Cersei aside for Margery, implying there is a procedure), and it would probably require the High Septon to be involved. It would likely require proving some defect in or transgression by one of the parties, since it's unlikely that no fault divorces exist in Westeros, to whatever their version of an ecclesiastical tribunal/court is. That only requires one party to get involved. Also, public announcement may not be a requirement and may have been held off on because of how fractious everything was at the time. But if there were paperwork and documents showing that the High Septon had agreed Rhaegar could set Elia aside prior to him marrying Lyanna there likely wouldn't be legal grounds for anyone to object, including Elia. I don't actually think that Rhaegar married Lyanna in the books, my personal theory is that she didn't want to marry and he (as part of his ongoing effort to groom a literal child, wtf Rhaegar) agreed that she could become something like an official lover/favorite and any of their children would be made legitimate either by his father or by him once he became king. But let's say he did. There are a couple options for how things went down: Illegal/unrecognized ceremony: Rhaegar basically pulled a Maegor and went "let's do a Valyrian ceremony," which no part of the country lawfully recognizes. Basically everyone would consider them not to be married and Elia to be his only wife. Elia's opinion would be moot. They got married in front of a heart tree with no other preperation: first men culture does historically allow for plural marriages, as does Valyrian culture. Unless there are specific non-ecclesiastical laws specifying that you may have only one spouse, passed by a Targaryen monarch, this would arguably be a valid marriage (also, GRRM has made statements implying such laws do not explicitly exist). It would also probably piss off the entire Faith and they would declare it invalid, at which point it becomes a question of how much support Rhaegar has and how willing he is to lead the country into another civil war over all this. (Interestingly, you could also make the argument that Lyanna was the equivelent of a "salt wife," which gives fewer rights than being a "rock wife" but does mean her children wouldn't be bastards. To the Iron Born, anyway, although I doubt the Faith would agree with that either). In this sort of case, Elia's opinion would still be relatively unimportant, since there's no indication that any of the relevant cultures require the assent of a wife to her husband taking other wives. They were married with the consent of/by the High Septon under the doctrine of Targaryen exceptionalism: this would make it a fully legally valid plural marriage, although some elements of the Faith would still raise a stink about it. Lyanna would be considered Rhaegar's fully legal wife, and it's less likely there would be a civil war. Elia's opinion would likely not be consulted, and it's likely she would not be informed until afterward if at all. Rhaegar set Elia aside, AH edition: Rhaegar in the longstanding tradition of "I have power and money so I'll do what I want" put pressure on the High Septon to agree to set Elia aside because he really wanted to marry someone else. This would probably be closer to a divorce than an annulment- this would mean he was no longer married to her, but his children were still his legitimate heirs. Elia possibly should have been informed, but Rhaegar was throwing his weight around so she wasn't. It is unlikely her not knowing beforehand would be sufficent to overturn the seperation, although it might if there are protection laws in place for wives or if she could prove that the accusation levied against her was baseless. Of course, she would either be proving this to the High Septon who agreed to it or to the king, so she may not have much luck, but she might have some legal recourse. Rhaegar annuled his marriage to Elia: this is AH version 2, electric boogaloo. Since annulling a marriage is functionally undoing it altogether, Rhaegar would basically need to prove the marriage was never valid to begin with. This would make his children illegitimate, outrage a great many people, and be unlikely to work at all. Elia's opinion on this would be largely irrelevant, since it's proving the marriage never really happened properly (since she's given him children, it's unlikely that it would be voidable). "Was the marriage legally constructed?" is an objective test, and her views wouldn't be relevant to it. Nor would she necessarily need to be informed, since such a pronouncement is less "you are now divorced" and more "our bad, you were never married" which wouldn't necessarily require notification. The only remotely sensible option- Rhaegar set Elia aside for cause: Renly expecting Robert to do this to Cersei implies that it is a procedure which can occur (if likely a highly involved, expensive one that is only available to the very rich/powerful). We don't know what grounds exist for it, but the most likely ones are: infertility, failure to perform marital duties, adultery, and possibly certain types of crime (like treason) as well. Elia gave Rhaegar children, and we have no reason to believe she cheated or commited treason, but she is likely failing to perform her marital duties. It's stated that more children would be impossible/kill her, making it unlikely they're being intimate and possibly going back to the infertility angle. In this case, Elia might need to be called upon to be asked if she is actually no longer able to have children/denying her husband his 'rights,' but statements from other trusted members of the community (like the Grand Maester) would probably be sufficent. If the High Septon were convinced this was the case, he might agree to annul the marriage. She might have needed to be notified in this case, but there probably wouldn't be a requirement for a public announcement and things would have been kept qquiet because of the rebellion. I also feel like it's worth noting that if Elia's options were "certainly die (probably in childbirth)" or "let your husband marry someone else," she would probably choose the latter. A husband does have rights to his wife in Westerosi culture, and Rhaegar could have pushed the matter on the hope his third child would survive even if she didn't. So even if her assent/notification was required (which is unlikely) she probably couldn't do much to fight it anyway. ETA: some of the Fire and Blood stuff apparently implies it's a king's perogative to set a wife aside? In which case it would have to be either Aerys or one of his many Hands. Which is entirely possible, given that one of those Hands was Jon Connington. But in that case, Elia's opinion would be even less of a factor since it'd basically just be based on the will of the king rather than an established legal or ecclesiastical custom.
@@Gunleaver Maybe, although most of it boils down to "women aren't worth that much in Westeros." And given how things went in season 8, they seemed to vibe with that idea XD
You’re totally ignoring the fact that in any circumstance where Rhaegar set aside his marriage with Elia Martell and married, and legitmitized his children with someone else, Dorne would be on his ass and they would not take kindly to it. Meaning there would be some kind of war in that circumstance.
@pokemcnmaster I wasn't ignoring it. My point was that Elia wouldn't have much to do with that. It'd be her brothers pissed off and fighting. Her opinion on the situation is likely irrelevant there too, if she wants them to fight and Doran says no she won't, if she didn't want war but her House decided to fight she would be expected not to make a fuss. Elia is not a party with agency in this. Doran is, Rheagar is, Oberyn maybe is and their houses are, but she isn't. So her personal opinion would have no bearing on the legality, and little if any on the outcome
19:30 There is a theory(I think it was In Deep Geek) that the reason Rhaegar spent the first part of the Rebellion in Dorne was to negotiate with Doran for an annulment to Elia so he could marry Lyanna. Doran agrees as long as both of his grandchildren have primacy over Rhaegar's child with Lyanna
Also, the dragons actually have a REALLY high chance of still hatching. Illyrio gave those eggs to Dany as a wedding gift...not Viserys. This was planned well in advance, as he had to aquire them. And...he was already part of a group trying to get Targaryen rule back in Westeros. So he was already a supporter, and has little reason not to. He more than likely would still attend whatever wedding Dany has and still give her the eggs, somehow accidently hatching them, if not purposely if he stumbles on info.
Than she just has to have more luck than all her ancestors who basicly did the same thing like her in the books minus the witch. Also wouldnt he give the eggs to aegon or rhaegar? Dany would be only a princess marrieng in the best case viserys since rhaegar would defintly let his son marry his sister
@@CorvoThan theres a theory that the women targaryens were the ones with the power to hatch the eggs, not the men. It explains why he gave them to Dany and not Viserys, despite backing Viserys' claim. Its possible they would be given to any Targaryen, really, I just assume theyd still go to Dany since there was no reason not to gift them to Viserys in the first place, so mustve been for a reason. Keep in mind all of her ancestors who tried didnt have eggs, and were also men. They werent trying to hatch dragons, but create one out of themselves. It doesnt take luck to see why that would fail.
@@Rhaenarys sadly there were quite a few male targaryen that had their eggs hatched before the dance. Take rhaenyras children. It also wouldnt make sense that valyrian culture is seemingly still a patriarchat. Atleast if we go after targaryen inheritance-tradition prior to the conquest. Further when there was in world such knowledge than it wouldnt make sense that a non-targaryen would know this but no targaryen themself. Further grr martin said himself that dany managing to hatch the dragons was a lucky series of circumstances which she wont be able to repeat. Since this theory is based on the only resurecting hatching of dragons happening by a woman, this seems to contradict it. So that theory seems to me nothing more than a fancy way to claim that "the women in the targaryen family were the truly special ones" than an serious theory. (Also the premise is wrong. There were many attempts at hatching eggs. Only in harrenhall they lost their last ones)
@@CorvoThan all eggs were hatched in the presence of women, including Rhaenyras childrens eggs. Regardless, i admit its a theory. It just seems to have more support when you consider tge fact there was no reason to gift them to Dany in the first place, and NOT Viserys, considering he would have much more use to them, and as youve said, why not the one with the claim? Its not exactly unreasonable to think someone in Pentose or on that side of Essos altogether to have possible knowledge of how it may be possible considering the Valyrians, Targaryens included, came from Essos to begin with, so not like the people of Essos were clueless about dragons and have never seen any before. The people collectively in all the years have seen way more dragons, many were even slaves of the dragonriders at one point, than all the people ever lived in Westeros, as even though there were dragons, not to the same number. Point is...thats a LOT more experience and knowledge to pass down through the generations to be all forgotten, unlike with the Targaryens, were the knowlegde easily couldve been lost after the Dance. They didnt have a lot of people sharing this info back and forth, not a lot of families sharing dragons, and pretty much killed each other completely, the sides that did have dragons. Its a fact the less people in a group to have some information, the less likely of that information being shared to the next generations. So the chances of people on Essos having knowledge on dragons that Dany and Viserys never got is actually pretty high. Especially when you consider its also highly likely those dragon eggs are the ones stolen by that one girl years before the Dance of Dragons (dont have my book in front of me, and admittedly suck at remembering names in general, not helping my brainfart. Alyssa Farman, i believe?) Those egss have been around Essos for a while, and with people who had money...and knowledge. After all, Illyrio works with the master of spiders. Its not like gaining info isnt part of their gig. So the chances of them having some sort of clue or knowledge the rest of the Targaryens didnt have is still high. I dont remember any eggs after the Dance that didnt hatch and either die sickly or immediately get killed, ill have to check that. And wasnt too many attempts after that, and those that were done had to do with wildfire. Dany had special dreams and instincts telling her to put them in the fire. Not wildfire lol. And yes, it was a combination of magical events going that wasnt normal for dragon hatching. But...thats not to say they wouldnt have hatched on their own later. And nothing about that says that Targaryen women cant have a special gene or whatever that makes the process happen, that isnt based in some magic. To be clear, i simplified the theory heavily. A good part of the theory is based around genetics and having a certain x chromosome with the trait. Hence why not all women Targaryens can do it. And only a few. It could be Dany had a single gene, the theory requires 2 to work, hence female, and the magic aided the other "gene" or acted as it. This also takes into account that despite some mistakes, Martin does take a special interest in genetics and often pushes genetics and the importance of in his stories. But yes, it is just a theory, (a game theory! Sorry couldnt help it there lol) but the main reason it fits is because Illyrio gave Dany the eggs...NOT Viserys. We should be asking why not, if the idea is he would give them to Rhaegar instead. After all, Illyrio was betting on Viserys up until his death. And even with "Aegon" in the books, he didnt give them to him, either. Why not? I think thats what people should be asking.
@@CorvoThan also, just to be really clear, its not my theory, so I might not be representing it 100% accurate, but to the best of my ability. Its not so much saying women are the truly special ones, unless your idea only women give birth in general makes them truly special. It just acknowledges the fact that women are the ones that bring life, not men, and that xx chromosome means youre the sex that brings life into the world. Theres way more to it like the dragon bonds and magic used to bond them centuries before even the Dance, when Old Valyria was still the big dog, and even before that. It covers a lot of history, and also doesnt necessarily even claim anyone has knowledge of it being the reason it happens, buts notes whenever a dragon is hatched, a female is always present. I can see why when i explain it it comes off as half cooked, because i didnt make it. I can only explain it to the best of my ability.
Rhaegar did not "seemingly" kidnap Lyanna. A kidnapping charge does not evaporate if the underage child voluntarily gets in the van! Lyanna was 16 when she died, and the war between the rebels and royals lasted for a year, with considerable time passing between Lyanna being taken by Rhaegar, and the outbreak of the fighting. First Lyanna disappeared. Then Brandon found out she was taken by Rhaegar, so he rode from the Riverlands to Kingslanding, where he was imprisoned and his father summoned to court. Rickard made the long journey from Winterfell, and was murdered along with Brandon, Aerys sent word to the Eyrie demanding the murder of Robert and Ned, and Jon refused, and rebelled, summoning his vassals and troops to fight, which began with Gulltown, where the lord in charge refused Jon's summons and sided with the crown. There would have been talks and negotiations, attempting to get him back on side, before they assaulted the city. And then, there is a year of fighting, culminating in the sack of Kings Landing and the murder of the royal family, after which Ned rode south to Storm's End (and as we see in aCoK), moving an army that distance takes some time, and Ned is specifically contrasted with people who rush headlong into action. After Storm's End was relieved, he then rode to Dorne, almost certainly stopping at Starfall, to learn where Lyanna was being held (Jon was nursed by a retainer of House Dayne, and Arthur Dayne's siblings would be the most likely to know where in the mountains of Dorne he was hiding out with a pregnant woman). Only after all this had transpired, did Lyanna die with Ned at her side, at age 16. The long and short is, Lyanna was WELL below the age of consent when she went with Rhaegar. Rhaegar DID kidnap Lyanna, regardless of how willing she was.
@@MylesKillis Read the books, of course they are. Where do you get things like Cersei being the Queen Regent, or Robert naming Ned to rule the realm until his son comes of age? Why is Lysa calling the shots, and then Petyr in the Vale of Arryn when her son, Robin, is the heir and the son of the last lord, Jon? It's because when the king or lord is a minor, he does not rule, an adult has to do the job for him. They absolutely have the concept of minors, and the age at which you become a legal adult is 16. Lyanna was not old enough to rule if her father and all her brothers died, leaving her as Lady of Winterfell, and she was not old enough to break her own betrothal or marry without parental consent, much less hook up with a man in his 20s.
@@Gunleaver I agree that there is a concept of minors, but it is quite different between men and women. A nobleman coming of age gives him the right to full authority if he is lord. A noblewoman coming of age is more marked by her first period and her ability to be wed and have children. Also, she would still need parental consent to marry, as these are the ways of traditional medieval societies.
@@harmonic_snow Well, that's still supporting my position that Rhaegar is, in fact, committing a serious offense by the laws of their society. By real life rules, Rhaegar is in his 20s and Lyanna is no more than 15, so it's rape. By Westeros laws, Lyanna has no parental consent, and furthermore, is in a binding agreement to marry another man, so it's rape. And no, your comparison is not accurate. There is a difference between adulthood and the age of consent. The age of consent in much of the US is about 16 or so, but you are not a legal adult, nor empowered to make critical life choices until 18. Westeros has the same concepts. Tywin tells Joffrey when the king is ranting about wanting the heads of traitors regardless of Tywin's intention to offer generous terms, that he only head his grandson needs to worry about is Margaery's maidenhead. Basically, Joffrey is old enough to have sex, but not old enough to rule on his own, which is firmly established in the various books as no less than 16. Just because it is lawful to marry a woman and have sex with her does not follow that she is a legal adult or able to make a marriage pact or repudiate a betrothal contract. Arguably, Lyanna running off with Rhaegar proves this, because this is something she CAN do about her marriage to Robert, when she lacks the legal authority to refuse him. Furthermore, the situation is even more extreme for women, who lack many of the rights and powers of an adult man. Even a fully-grown woman is subject to the authority of the male head of her household, and has limited power to arrange her own marriage. MAYBE, Lyanna and Rhaegar could have got away with it if she was 20 or so, but the Starks and Baratheons would still be perceived as the wronged parties and a gesture of some sort from Rhaegar, such as lands or honors or considerations in dealing with the crown, would be considered the minimum compensation they were entitled to. For a 14-15 year old girl, betrothed to someone else? Every lord in Westeros was in agreement with Robert & Brandon, objectively speaking, even if their current alliances or political interests necessitated or invited siding with the king.
@@Gunleaver Rhaegar is committing a serious offence. Whether one counts rape, kidnapping, grooming or the offense to his wife's family in terms of the societal expectations in Westeros. I just do not see how modern, real life laws have anything to do with it. Yes, for us pedophilia is a thing. In the world of Westeros it is also known as a criminal condition, yet it does not matter once a woman reaches her adulthood, which does not seem to have a particular number of years to follow. Now I haven't read the books in a long time, and I'm also not trying to debate. Was just curious about the comment! Have a nice day! Edit: My own comment seemed a bit dry. I meant to say that I am not actually sure if women are considered adult at a specific age in the context of Westeros and ASOIAF because I'd have to read the books again and find the details. So my first comment was not debating, simply raising my doubts for discussion
In Westeros Elia's consent would mean nothing if Rhaegar wanted to anull his marriage with her. And then as king he can easily make Jon legitimate and in line to the throne so there would be tension, but the matter in itself wouldn't be a big issue.
I wrote an entire fanfiction about this. Basically, it opens with Rhaegar rebuilding Summerhall. The main characters are Tyrion, who in this timeline is an innovitive genius. Dany, who gets held hostage by the North, and Rhaegar's kids who end up developing Rhoynar water magic from their Martell side. Ned and the Starks begin as the "bad guys" but end up doing so to try to spurn the realm into battling the rising White Walkers. It's a good read, ngl. Rhaegar actually does get killed by Robert, but gets brought back to life. Rises like a zombie and stabs Robert from the back. I don't think the war would have ended right there. Which means Lyanna probably dies before any of that Ned plot you have gets done.
The only issue with what happens with Stannis is that he has literally been under a siege for the entire rebellion up to the point of The Battle of the Trident. House Tyrell had a massive army holding siege of Storm's End, so how would the Baratheon's pull out of the rebellion if Stannis likely had 0 knowledge of how things are going
This is a big problem with most of these videos as well as with the shows. People have baked in assumptions about information proliferation and travel time that are based on modernity and have no bearing in a medieval world.
@@Sebomai-b8i exactly. To begin to theory craft for something like this you have to take stock of the methods possible for aquiring information. Sure they had ravens for communication, but as history tells us, armies target the communcations of their opponents. Exhibit A carrier pigeons in ww1 being shot to halt vital messages. This same tactic could be applied against ravens, though the desired effect is likely harder to achieve. In effect Stannis is fully cut off from all information while in Storm's End, and I doubt word would reach the Tyrells to left the siege in a timely manner either
In the original story Ned goes from the trident to kings landing and then with a small delay in kings landing to the tower of joy. How could Ned go from the trident all the way north to at least moat cailin, most likely all the way to winterfell and then BACK down to the tower of joy in dorne in the same time.
If Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar then she has my full sympathies, but if she went with Rhaegar willingly then she is a fucking hypocrite for judging Robert for having bastards then she turns around and runs away with another womans man and has a bastard of her own. PS: Rhaegar can not have two wives the targeryans are not allowed, they can marry siblings but not have two wives, so jon would still be a bastard.
Lyanna was 16 when she died, only 15 at most when she was kidnapped/left, and he started making moves on her when she was 14. Rhaegar was 22-24. If he told her he and his wife were amicably seperating because she couldn't have more children and he needed more (a spare at least), that he was in love with her and would marry her/make her children legitimate, etc. that would likely have seemed reasonable to the literal child he was grooming. There is also a world of difference between "man who goes after every warm body in a skirt" and "man who is divorced." Even if divorce isn't much of a thing in their culture for obvious reasons, it's not out of the question that Elia would be fine with Rhaegar keeping a lover and legitimizing her kids (which seems like a more likely agreement for the two to have reached in the books) and Lyanna being willing to go along with that. Plus, even if she did initially go with him willingly, she still wound up being essentially imprisoned either way (Ned's dream isn't reliable, but the Kingsguard refused to let him in when she was calling for him which seems fairly telling. It's also likely they either didn't tell her what was going on or refused to let her write/do anything to try and clear up whatever misunderstanding there was) It would be no surprise that a guy who thought it was reasonable to effectively groom a young teenager and isolate her from her family probably also lied to her. PS: They aren't supposed to have plural marriages because it upsets the Faith, not because it's necessarily illegal. But more relevantly, if he set Ellia aside then he would no longer be married in a legal sense and could take another wife. It's unlikely and difficult to do, especially since she's given him children, but in actual history it has been done at times when a woman can't/won't perform her 'marital duties.' Given that another pregnancy could kill Ellia so she wouldn't be joining him in their marital bed, and that as prince he could pull some strings with the High Septon, it's not inconceivable that he could have done so.
@0predaking0 She would likely be OK with him having a lover, but having one too openly might undermine her status in court and legitimising the children (especially sons) might be an issue. But also, the point is kinda moot. It's highly likely that Elia and Lyanna never actually met, and given all the sketchiness going on, Rhaegar might well have lied/exaggerated/assumed without actually checking with Elia. My point was more that a sheltered 15 year old who thinks she's in love/is looking for any out would probably believe him when he said that his wife was okay with this because she's from Dorne. Lyanna probably knew little but stereotypes about Dorne and may not have realized all the courtly bs ways this could be a potential problem for Elia, so it'd seem plausible to her.
I don't have any insightful or creative thoughts on who the promised prince might be, but I think it being a "prince" would be logical to not necessarily have the king unite the seven kingdoms. It could be a prince who seems to have a lot of charisma and unites the people in battle against the wights and ends up being known as the greatest battle commander and war strategists in the history of Westeros.
Realistically speaking, those dragons would be a huge asset in the fight against the others. If Rhaegar had survived and Dani would have never gone to Essos and therefore the second (supposed) long night would happen without dragons, Westeros and it's inhabitants would have been royally f***ed. Sure the ones wielding Valyrian steel blades could kill a few white walkers, but they'd been buying time at best. Long story short, Rhaegar dying at the trident might not have been the worst thing in the long run.
I'd also wonder whom Rhaegar would pick for Aegon and Rhaenys, since they are alive, and he really needs to stabilize the realm. Or Viserys, since he'd reach marrying age sooner than them.
Aegon and Rhaenys would likely be expected to marry each other. Both to secure the bloodline and because it would stop any Dornish complaints about competing claims (since she's older and would inherit under their law- it's unlikely there would be actual conflict over that but better to keep it from being an issue where possible). Rhaegar also clearly believes in magic bloodline prophecy stuff, so it'd make sense that he wants to hedge his bets just in case. Viserys is iffier, but my guess would be Margery. He's 6 years older than her, but that isn't an uncommon age gap for a political marriage, and she would either already be born by this point or be born soon after. There also aren't any other major families I'm aware of that have a daughter in that age range, so it makes sense.
No way Rhaegar names Tywin as his hand. I don't believe for a second he trusted Tywin. He would need to make peace with some of the pissed off people from the war. Decent chance it goes to Jon Arryn still, I would think. The question is how forgiving people are gonna be off the affair that started the war. Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna come off well in light of this whole war being caused by them being horny and ghosting everybody. Some high school level shit.
I saw a good fanfiction where Jon's real name is Baelon, a Valyrian take on a Northern Name, specifically Bael the Bard who was King Beyond the Wall for a time and stole a Daughter from the King of Winter
The fact that this video has nearly 250k views based on a character who was only mentioned in the books and show is mindblowing and shows how amazing the song of ice and fire truly is
It's not really mind-blowing. Rhaegar is perhaps the most important character in a Song of Ice and Fire. Almost all of the major events that occur in the main story are a result of his rather mysterious actions.
( For 20:08 ) There's a private journal of the septoon who married Lyanna and Rheagar. Sam stumbled upon it when he was transcribing it. (show version)
Viserys wasn’t just a beggar Je was Passed around by ground men in Esso’s & Absolutely abused! The book actually makes his behavior not excusable but understandable!
Not even going to mention what that scumbag Rhagar said to Ser Jamie right before he left for the trident??? He clearly had big plans...plus you're wrong about Khal Raget turning out to be a good lad, he was a Joffrey the 1st long before the rebellion...Barry the bold Ser Jamie and others seen that boy wasn't right and definitely was his father's son. It's actually the main reason why Ser Barry hid his identity at first when he joined up with team dany. He wanted to be damn sure she wasn't her father's daughter and didn't show the same glaring signs that varys did
I feel like marrying his daughter to Robb, or Dany to Robb would make more sense, and finally complete that promise Jace made in 130ac 😅 If Rhaegar had put Viserys in the faith so he didn't have a rival to deal with, and he legitimized Jon/Viserion... Then rebuilt Summerhall..and say granted it to him so he'd have land to inherit, then yeah also marrying Jon/Viserion to Sansa would then make more sense instead of to a landless youngest son.
I think things might play out a bit differently here. Stannis is still likely to support the rebellion due to Aerys not being likely to forgive house Baretheon even if Robert is dead. If Rhaegar does join the rebellion it is likely he would do so by securing support of the houses involved. This would lead to Jon being betrothed to Shireen and Danny being betrothed to Robin Arryn, this secures Rhaegar an alliance with the major players in the rebellion. There's also the possibility that Viserys is promised to house Tully. Rhaegar's wife is still likely to die during Danny's birth so he probably ends up married to Cersei to secure the Lannisters probably as a package for letting Jami free of his oath as a kings guard and allowing him to return as heir to Casterly Rock. To appease the Martel's and Dorne it is likely any children bore by Cersei are promised to the Martel's. The big questions are would Rhaegar get his hands on the Dragon Eggs or not and would they still hatch for Danny if he did?
So basically, Rhaegar would have LOTS of cleaning up to do, and mistakes to amend for. Yeah, Rhaegar winning would've led to quite something 😅 I still feel the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna BS really was handled extremely poorly from every angle. In what universe did they think this would've worked wonders without a hitch? Absolute morons
A group of my friends are running a GURPs RPG in an Alternate GOT Universes where this happens. We have a full write up on how things would of changed. The idea of this is interesting.
I have a hard time believing any amount of persuading would convince Ned to go to the tower of Joy as far away from the North as possible knowing what happened to his father after the same ploy was used on him after Brandon's capture
Dude can you do a follow-up/sequel to this one? Like you said, there are SO many things this effects and I'd love to see more of the characters and stories this impacts
I heard "being cruel" as "being cool" and now Im thinking of Maegor the Cool. Ngl a lot of the more infamous Targaryeans are pretty cool. Maegor, Daemon the Rogue Prince, Daeron the Young Dragon, even Prince Rhaegar, all some pretty swagged out dudes.
Ned wouldn’t need the letter form Lyanna from everything we know about Ned he believes in men’s honor no matter how smarmy they are and would trust Rhegaer
If Rhaegar won at the Battle of the Trident, I imagine he would have handled the rebels like Daeron II did with the rebels in the first Blackfyre Rebellion. After Daemon Blackfyre's allies were defeated by the royalists, King Daeron II demand a hostage from each of the defeated rebel houses to ensure their future loyalty. With House Baratheon, Rhaegar would probably be given Renly Baratheon as a hostage. With Houses Tully and Arryn, Rhaegar might secure Lysa Tully, who is Jon Arryn's wife and a daughter of Hoster Tully. With House Stark, Rhaegar would not need any more hostages because his son with Lyanna would be the only Stark hostage he would need and Ned Stark would do anything to protect his sister's son. As for who would marry who in this alternate timeline, I imagine Prince Aegon marrying Margery Tyrell to secure the Reach's crops and livestock in preparation for the Long Night. Robb Stark would marry Daenerys Targaryen in an attempt to reconcile the Starks and Targaryens. After being legitimized, (Jon Snow) would likely marry Arianne Martell or another Martell daughter to reconcile with Dorne. In addition, Viserys and Rhaenys would marry like Daemon and Rhaenyra did.
The problem with Sansa being betrothed to Viserion is the same problem of him being named heir: hes still a bastard. Rhaegar would have to do a LOT of work to make it a worthy betrothal in Neds eyes, as well as Cats. Ned would be insulted, after still being angry, because he would...as Rhaegar would become the new Jaime for him...and would NOT accept. Rhaegar would have to give up the sibling marriage tradition and betroth Aegon to Sansa instead.
Or Viserys to Sansa, as hed still be alive and fine. Maybe a lot less "crazy" too, as he wouldnt have to go through all that trauma that got him to that final point.
@@fightingmedialounge519 like i said, he would have to do A LOT of work to raise new Jons station high enough for Ned and Cat, the party still more than likely very angry about the past, to accept it. This means somehow making new Jon, or Viserion, a warden somewhere, displacing another house. Wardens usually married their kids amongst each other, hence why the cousin marriage wasnt so taboo. The Starks probably would have to reach out to lesser houses eventually, but not for Sansa, the first born daughter. Even Arya is more fit for a wardens son over a lesser house. And theres no way Ned would be so willing to make peace that easily. Ned would already be extremely POed when finding out his sister ran off and got rhe family killed. She might even be disowned at that point, being seen as the Stark wh0re by most of the realm, because sexism was still alive and well in this world. Simply legitamizing Viserion wouldnt change all the anger and hate Ned would feel for Rhaegar, as like i said, Rhaegar would be the new Jaime, but on another level as Rhaegar dishonored the Starks personally. It would take a lot more than simply legitamizing him. Sorry. I tend to ramble on sometimes about GoTs topics lol. Its one of my special interests.
@@Rhaenarys again doesn't necessarily have to be a warden. Again he would have been legitimate pretty much immediately. The issue arragment is purely their personal feelings regarding the targaryians. Also I doubt ned would disown her considering he still very much cherish his sister in the show depsite knowing it was a consensual affair with rhaegar(the books are different matter).
@@fightingmedialounge519 im speaking purely off of the Starks personal feelings. The story changes entirely if he lives and Robert dies...and its all revealed she left willingly with him, and couldnt even tell at least Benjen in regards to feelings. Lyanna is no longer the victim of an evil and cruel regime, shes a willing participant in the bloodshed that cost her father, her brother, and her betrothed lives, all of which Ned loved dearly and wouldnt easily forget. And then theres the question of honor. His own honor might force him to disown her because she dishonored the family that way, and caused that much trouble. Again...she got her dad and brother killed. He might still blame Rhaegar more, but knowing she let it all happen will leave a horrible taste in his mouth, and might push him to not even recognize the child himself, in that way, disowning her. Which is also why the betrothal wouldnt happen. Because Ned himself wouldnt see the child as worthy simply by being legitamized. And with Cat there to help insitgate problems, they both wouldnt sell their first born daughter so cheaply. And again...i am speaking on their personal feelings on the matter, not necessarily the realms. I just dont see Ned, with Cat, agreeing that easily. The better arrangement would be Aegon to Sansa, or his daughter to Rob.
ASoIaF is a world of magic and destiny. I agree with much of your coda, Lyanna's son wedding Sansa, etc. However, like bad pennies, R'hllor is going to make those dragons show up somehow.
The first thing that would be different: Rhaeger would’ve launched a coup against his father. Before the Battle of the Trident he told Ser Barristan of the Kingsguard. “There will be changes at court.” Maybe it wouldn’t have been an overt coup. But he certainly would have forced Aerys to abdicate in some way and I imagine that can only end with someone, likely Aerys, dead. With that, I think Ned and Arryn would be placated. Rhaeger than gets peace.
Isn't "Robert's Rebellion" a retronym? Why wouldn't Rheagar marry any of his other children to the Starks instead of the one child that is cousin to them? It would make more sense to bond Starks and Martells by marrying one of Elia's children instead. That way you can write Jon x Arya's bond as a secret Balerion x Arya "forbidden romance" instead and maybe have it echo R+L. Plus it just makes more sense to marry Sansa to the heir apparent or Robb into royalty if what you fear is that the North might try to separate.
Im not sure just because of the intro you have the right here even. In the history of asoiaf, they actually mention there were talks between Rhaegar and several lorldlings about Aerys and how unfit he was. Aerys himself was not big on his own son in his paranoia, but signs point to the fact that he was right to be paranoid. So, if Robert's rebellion is dealt with, Rhaegar is turning to actually disposessing his father. The only reason they were unified was the war; without it Rhaegar isnt staying on his father's side. I think, if you dont mind me saying, that's one critque I have for you: a lot of these what if scenarios boil down to turning everyone to group think. They all are happy and dont fight. Sometimes its substantiated. Sometimes it isnt. It's possible the war ceases with Robert's death, but it's also possible we get a lover's quarrel between the two women. The last time two mothers fought over a chair only one could sit in spelt the end of the dragons. Elia and Lyanna's families could have gone at it hard to get their respective child on the throne. Ned still saw his family die for everything, and wouldnt have forgiven the Targaryans even if Rhaegar had nothing to do with it. My point is, there would still be far more conflict than you let on.
Don’t forget that Rheagar and Jamie had a conversation that when he would come back from the war he would plan to uprise his father from all the fucked shit he did already
with rhaegar being king I don't think he would be a great king like daeron II, I see him being an above average king, and i think ned should be the hand to reduce tension between the north and the throne, i think this is one of the best what if´s that you made
Even if Robert dies, Tullys, Arryns, Starks and Baratheon will continue to fight. As long as Ned is alive the Rebellion will go on. Maybe you forgot. Ned Stark was first in the Kings Landing. He can take the throne himself if he wanted.
To be fair, Regar did end the Targaryen rule for the time with his death, but he did fulfill Egon’s dream of the prince that was promised for the song of ice and fire
I assume Ned would either die in battle still rebelling against Aerys or surrenders when he finds out about Lyanna's marriage to Rhaegar and because of Lyanna's marriage, Ned is allowed to join the Night's Watch where he goes on to eventually become Lord Commander. Benjen most likely rules Winterfell until Robb is old enough. The other Stark children are never born unless something happens to Robb and Benjen becomes the Lord of Winterfell and marries Catelyn.
20:10 my dude, yes they do have documents lol, Sam is the one telling Bran that Jon isn't a bastard. He transcribed the diary of the Maester who did the ceromony
To appease the north, if Rhaegar pulls back his men after he kills Robert and asks for a parlay with Ned, I think Ned would have talked with him. If Rhaegar had Lyanna write a letter to her brother first, Rhaegar could have given it to him then, as well as a pass for Arthur Dayne for Ned to see his sister. With Lyanna's death, I could see Rhaegar fostering Jon in the north with house Stark to have Ned's help in deposing his father. With the stories of dragons in the crypt, it would have been Jon with the "dragon dreams" rather than Daenerys. I still see Jon finding the dire wolves, which would cement him as the "Prince Who Was Promised." Once Jon has the dragon and the wolf, I believe that Rhaegar would have named Jon his heir to ensure survival against the winter. Sending his eldest son to the Doran Martell to wed his daughter would stop any succession issues and appease the Lady of Dorn for the insult to her daughter. I still see Jon giving Arya Needle and a bow as he would have known that Valyrian women hunt and fight and would have seen nothing wrong with Arya doing the same.
Aegon (Jon) was named Aegon because rhaegar believes that his son born with the blood of both ice and fire is the prince that was promised. And he wanted him to have the name of the conqueror, who actually started all this to save the world from white walkers
I think after the trident rhegar would've had a sitdown with ned to discuss his sister and the truth. In which ned would speak to his sister (who in this case would survive) who would renounce the rebellion and tell the truth on what really happened. Which would cause the dornish to not be happy because rhegar was unfaithful and loved another.
What if the First Blackfyre Rebellion succeeded? What if the assassination plot against Aegon the Conqueror and Visenya by the Dornish succeeded? What if Daeron the Young Dragon succeeded in his conquest of Dorne?
@@OcarinaSapphr- Yeah, I know. I meant if he didn't get assassinated, successfully put down the rebellions and somewhat pacified Dorne(as unlikely as that is). My personal opinion is that this couold not be achieved without Daeron creating some sort of professional standing army, but that's definitely possible, if difficult. Some important results might be that he has children, completely changing the Targaryen bloodline going forwad. Dorne is absorbed not through marriage, but through fire and blood, which means they won't be so pro-Targaryen like they were in our timeline. A professional standing army is very useful, and this could make the Targaryen dynasty more durable against future rebellions.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul I wouldnt say it would've been unlikely that Dorne could've been pacified. The problem was for all of Daerons skills in strategy his political skills and clearly knowledge on history was rather lacking, by putting a Tyrell in charge of Dorne he pretty much guaranteed they would rise up.
I think that Rhaegars ofer to marridge Is that Aegon married Sanca and if Sanca married Jon I think that Aegon married Ariana Martel or Margery Tyrel or maybe some one from Dayne dynasty
I think we'd end up with a dance of the dragons type situation. Before roberts rebellion Aerys was paranoid about Rhaegar and some people on his small council had actually secured their positions by Aerys's opinions over Rhaegars in the years before the war. So all that stuff likely comes back to surface , probably worse depending on how resistant rhaegar is when it comes to punishing the rebel houses. One faction (interestingly possibly making the lannisters and starks allies ) might consolidate around Rhaegar and another around Aerys and his infant children (probably lead by a lord that hopes to become their reagent once rhaegar is set aside....maybe stannis ? ). The insuing conflict probably forces the survivors of the losing side to flee to essos anyways (most likey viserys and Danaerys again).
Which is a good thing. Arya's arc is not empowering or cool, it's a horrifying ordeal that breaks her mentally, leaving a shell of a person, a living weapon to be used and thrown away by the House of Black and White.
Jon(valerion) would be trained by Arthur dayne that would be interesting to see. Also Robb and Daeny would be a better match, I think, but Jon and sansa makes sense to help appease Ned
Wait, Liana could not have been possibly aware that the other Aegon was already dead when Jon Snow was born. So yes, it would still be possible for Jon to be named Aegon in this timeline.
Oddly enough i have a friend and his name is Rodney. His younger brother's name is Rodney. Both named after their father. And they are only like 2 year apart so idk what their mom was thinking. Same middle names too if i remember correctly.
Since Elia can't have kids after the first 2 she knew her time as rhaegar's wife was limited. And he could always declare Jon as legitimate. It wasn't something that had never happened before. That's the initial cause of the backfire rebellion.
One thing that always trips me out was that once things were spinning out of control why didn't Lyanna go back and set things straight but i assume Raghar didn't let her leave
I have one question WHO married Cersei in this time line I think that Is interesting I personaly think the best marridge posibility in Tywins eyes Is Stannis and that Is, oh god ,somethik very interesting Please comment
More likely, he tries for Oberyn again. A prince isn't as good as a KING, but still probably preferable to the younger brother of a recent traitorous rebel and whose house probably only narrowly avoided getting destroyed. Failing that, likely a lesser lord from the Westerlands or possibly a Tyrell (Willas doesn't have a confirmed age, and would be notably younger than Cersei, but might still be workable). Again, Stannis probably wouldn't be a great match politically speaking, so there's limited utility in marrying her off to him.
@@vyxzuw768nope, the Targs only get an incest pass from the Faith because they are royalty and because Maegor put them in their place. He who is sovereign makes the exception.
Rhaegar stopped being loyal to his father before Robert’s Rebellion started.
When Aerys was held hostage at Duskendale, Tywin was willing to let him be killed, knowing that Rhaegar would become king in his place, which he openly said in front of Rhaegar and the others present.
If Rhaegar had survived the Battle of the Trident, Aerys would still have been deposed after all the cruelty and murder he committed.
I believe his words are “we have a better king right here.”
Well it's just a theory but probably true , the turney at Harrenhal was organized by Rhaegar to convince the lords to depose his father , even before riding to meet Robert in the field he said to Jaime , when i come back changes will be made. He was talking about deposing his fatheronce the war was over , but never could .
Rhaegar: sorry dad but you're fired.
Indeed, still Aerys was deeply suspicious of his son and his popularity and his arrival at the tourney at Harrenhal was unexpected as he hadn't left the capital in years since the Defiance at Duskendale. If Rhaeger had won on the Trident and the Lannister Army now at his back approaching Kings Landing, Aerys might have well carried out his plot to torch the city, rather than be deposed by Rhaeger or worse killed by Tywin, both of whom detested each other at this stage of the story.
Aerys interestingly sounds like the god of war and the underworld Aeres of Greek mythology. The dude probably lost his mind
Robb betrothed to Daenerys that would be interesting
Now that's a thought exercise.
Wasn't she going to be marrying viserys anyways?
@@LisaAnn777 She just assumes she is. Technically Viserys was supposed to marry Arianne Martell but he didn’t know about the pact and later died.
She'd have an affair with Jon.
Fulfilling the pact of ice and fire that Jace made with Cregan Stark all that time ago.
If Rhaegar won, the first thing he would have done - with an army behind himself - is call a counsel to declare Aerys incapacitated and have himself named regent.
No , he had fight in behalf of his father legitimizing his actions
What do you mean by Rhaegar won ?? Oh ,you mean kill all the starks , Tully's, arryns, and baratheons , sure a great king 🥴
Sansa marrying Valerion makes no sense since he's the second son. What makes better sense is Rhaenys marrying Robb to appease the North, Valerion marrying Arianne to appease the Dornish and Aegon marrying Margaery since they need the crops and livestock for the coming winter and the Reach supported Rhaegar from the start of the rebellion.
I was thinking the same thing lol
Are we talking Dany’s dragon or her brother (Viserys) here? 😉
@@sethh1943don't know what you mean. Viserys will hold very little importance to the Targaryans and without the plot going like cannon Dragons never happen
Marrying the princess to dorne the living embodiment of the king insulting dorne isn't really a sensible option.
@jeambeam3173
I doubt that. Viserys is still the King's brother, and a Targaryen Prince. Why wouldn't he be important?.
What if Ned has successfully deposed Cersei and Joffrey after Robert's death?
Tywin would be pretty angry.
@@timtheskeptic1147 and not much else lol 😂
Boring Story
...but what most of us were hoping would happen.
@@thatsoundslikeheresytomeyo4960He'd have to get over it. He would be surrounded. If he went to war he'd have to fight AT LEAST the Baratheons and the storm lands. The North, Most likely the dornish because they hate Lannisters, and once little finger sees that all those houses are against the Lannisters. You'd get Petyr convincing lysa to also have the Arryns go against the Lannisters as well. And because they aren't stupid. You'd have the Tyrells either A. Joining in on that dogpile, or B. Stay neutral. Tywin is smart and would see a lost cause when he saw one and sue for peace pretty fast. In exchange he would likely ask for his children and grandchildren to be spared. Which Stannis likely wouldn't grant, but, with Ned being there and likely still hand of the king. Ned might talk Stannis into it and as a result would probably grant it. Sending Tommen, Joffrey, and Jaime to the nights watch and Myrcella and Cersei to the silent sisters.
After that Stannis is king, Eddard is still probably hand. Tywin is bruised and beaten and dishonored because of what his children did. And is forced to name Tyrion his heir, or name Kevan his heir to casterly rock.
The rebellion formally started when Jon Arryn called his bannermen rather than hand over Ned and Robert. It was called Robert’s Rebellion he sat on the Iron Throne. Ned wasn’t interested in it. And the Tully’s were in with the Starks. It’s more of a Northern Rebellion than Stormer own.
Exactly the north lost more and had a reason to fight Robert was just mad over a girl that was never going to be his he was in love with the idea of her was still gonna be the same a fat drunk he only had this rage because the Targaryen were doing whatever they wanted and that made him feel some type of way
@@JohnJohn-bz1lq The king called for Roberts head it wasn't just for lyanna
@@stevendalloo2433 accourding to robert himself it was all about lyanna
He got everything but her and not having her crushed him at the end regardless of the rest
Besides how do you think it came to the point of Aerys asking for their heads? It's due to the actions taken after lyannas supposed kidnapping
Exactly, Jon and Ned would have easily continued the fight and potentially still killed/defeated Rhaegar and the Targaryans, the only thing that changes is who sits the Iron Throne, which honestly anyone would have been better suited for it than Robert
@@SamTheMan0425Robert admitted it, the throne and power made him soft weak fat, he should have been a great warrior known for his battlefield strength and military prowess. If lets say they told people she chose to go and Rhaegar got his marriage annulled publicly he'd have problems with Dorne but at least it wouldnt have been a whole Rebellion Robert would be hurt but compensated he'd have his pride he could have been made a general of the army had any woman he wanted but not the one he lied to himself was his soulmate because of his love for Ned they were raised as brother's he loved Ned enough to lie and say he was the way he was because she was stolen from him, each time he said it the lie becomes easier and easier until he believed it himself. Robert was a warrior not a warrior king. He enjoyed the finer things power allowed him and he was a glutton for wine women and spending the wealth the realm provided. Ned would have made a far better king because power is best given to those who dont seek it or crave it and they are less likely to abuse it once put in a position of power. Ned would have been known as the Wise Wolf. Everyone forgets Jon is a Starkgaryen and he has the best qualities of both houses and is fair to low born and nobles alike he treats men on their merit not on their birthright or lack therof. #DragonOfTheNorth
I think Rhaegar would name Jon Aemon after his great-uncle Maester Aemon. Rhaegar and Aemon conversed quite a bit thru ravens about the prophecy and Aemon helped Rhaegar figure out that he himself wasn't the prince who was promised, but one of his heirs would be. Also, throw in the fact that the greatest Targaryen knight to ever live was named Aemon "The dragon knight," and I think that's the name he is given.
Adding to that, Jon was also enamored with Aemon the Dragon Knight since his early childhood
Personally since Jon is his "disguised" name I would be partial to a name like Jaeron. Aemon just doesn't feel right.
I think he would name jon viserys, since he was trying to create aegon, rhaenys and visenya but jon isn't a girl so viserys would be the male version of visenya.
@mappingshaman5280 That's a good option, too. Rheagar was really big on tradition and prophecy and Viserys does check both those boxes.
I agree he already had a son named Aegon, who was still alive and well at the time, I think Jon should have been Aemon Targaryen the Dragon of the North Prince of prophecy.
I disagree about Ned's reaction... he actually was never angry or mistrustful of Rhaegar. Robert and Brandon Stark (Ned's brother, the one who strangled to death while watching their father get burned alive) were the hotheaded ones. Ned also knew Rhaegar, at least a little (enough to ponder to himself in the books that Rhaegar wasn't the type to frequent brothels), and if he knew Rhaegar well enough to know that, then he knew Rhaegar well enough to know that he wasn't mad like Aerys.
I imagine that Ned's feelings when Lyanna was supposedly "abducted" by Rhaegar, were feelings of confusion. The anger only came when his father and brother were tortured to death for a completely imagined "treason." But Ned never held that against Rhaegar, or Lyanna. He loved Lyanna... and he knew perfectly well that she was never in love with Robert. Nor was Robert truly in love with her... he was in love with the _idea_ of her, but Robert imagined Lyanna as some sort of beautiful angel, when she was actually... a lot like Arya. That's how she's described in the books... Arya's compared to Lyanna a _lot._ Not even remotely what Robert believed her to be.
Anyway... Ned's war was always against Aerys, not Rhaegar. Aerys is the one who slaughtered his brother and father. Upon learning that Rhaegar had a plan to remove Aerys, Ned would be all in.
I do like that you touched on the plan Rhaegar had to remove his father, btw. Though I wish you went into more detail about what you think that plan may have originally entailed.
The way he mentioned house arrest, I imagined a similar situation to Alicent Hightower when Aegon III was proclaimed king after Aegon II was killed by poison. They simply kept her confined to her own chambers and she was allowed visits with her granddaughter until she frightened her to tears by suggesting she slit Aegon III throat while he slept. I don't know if there would have been a point of putting Aery's on trial considering he was obviously insane. Better to just keep him from doing any more harm to anyone and leave it at that. Allowing him to die of old age and keeping him reasonable comfortable until then would keep Rhaegar from being a kin-slayer or king-slayer. The most important thing is to keep Aery's from interfering with peace and from doing further harm to anybody else.
We should remember Lyanna was quite daring and adventurous too
@@FusionCoreHoarder she was a spoiled 14 year old who ran off with a married man and caused a war. that all these characters wax poetically about her is more unreliable narrator than anything else.
@@RoamingeastRhaegar is the creep here for running off with a 14 year old while he was a married man and father in his twenties.
in the show, Rhaegar didn't even put a dent into Bobby Baratheon. In the books, Rhaegar wounded Baratheon. So lets get the facts straight here.
To be honest Big dog nobody cares about the books some of them didn’t even come out when the show did the only ones that did were a knight of the 7 Kingdoms black fire rebellion dance of the dragon the Golden Empire the story of the conqueror the King of the north and The last Targaryen and the Valerian Empire every other book was written during the show and came out during the show and near the end so all this “b-but in the books it says this” is cringe and annoying the show is a live representation of George RR Martins story making it cannon And any other books that come after it aren’t
@@JohnJohn-bz1lqthats not how canon works and if the books do have a better ending if thry do come out why not consider them the main storyline considering they are the person who made its true representation
@@LuciusYano that doesn’t make any sense if I’m directing a show about a story That came from a few books, the script and every element of my shows written by the author of the books books but some elements are different my show isn’t canon as it’s different in the books that came before the show are the original since it came out first but if new books come out which include elements from the show then are non canon or legends but if the author instead claims the show to be canon (which he has) then any material that comes out after the main show has been concluded those books are now canon or if the author includes every material of game of the show and every book that has come out and is being worked on to be canon like what happened with Naruto
@@JohnJohn-bz1lqyeah thats ridiculous the show cuts out SO MUCH from books its completely different and hes said multiple times he wished certain storyliens or characters were closer to the book just like hes praised some characters from thw show as being more fleshed out then in the books but most of those characters had already died anyway and just had extra scenes they didnt completely change them like they do w major characters like jon who is unrecognizable from his book counterpart. also if martin felt tje shows were main canon he would not make sure the stories being adapted are either finished or are going to be finished by there end like HOTD and dunk and egg will be. got s8 pissed the bed whatever sentiment he mau have had about show being the proper canon changed as soon as those characters started to heavily divulge from their book counterparts. again it would be useless to continue writing his books if they werent the canon/real story to him hed just have a heavy hand in the shows
@@JohnJohn-bz1lqthough i will say w certain media franchises this is the case i dont believe it is ANY LONGER for asoiaf/got like i said i just dont see why hes made such a big deal to hbo about only doing completed stories or stories that he can complete or release small quicker novellas of as needed like dunk and egg which even that one is the only spin off where source material isnt mostly done or completely done..which is probably why the long night spin off, the robert rebellion spin off, the doom of valyria spin off, and the jon snow spin off were not made even though they were advertised/spoken about like they were pretty much going to happen
I disagree about Elia. She would see Jon as a serious threat to her children. Remember the Blackfyres anyone
Plus Jon is a visible reminder of how Rhaegar humiliated her in front of all of Westeros. I doubt she would be a mother figure for him.
Jon would also be surrounded by intrigue and viewed with suspicion by many so I doubt he would be happier growing up in the Red Keep then he was in Winterfell. Also would Ned really betroth Sansa to a bastard?
Technically jon in this version would have been made legitimate.
He’s the second son, he can be moved down in succession with each son Aegon has.
At this point in time, Elia's beloved brother, Oberon, already has like 3 or 4 bastards running around and her family dotes on them. I mean, sure, she would be hurt by her husband's adultery, she's not made of stone. But the Dornish are known for being very passionate people, she would be more understanding of her husband's actions than most women. The Blackfyre rebellion happened because King Aegon IV made it abundently clear he preferred his bastard son over his trueborn son, to the point of spreading rumors that his wife had been unfaithful and his trueborn son was actually fathered by someone else. I don't see anything like that happening this time around, Rhaegar wouldn't try to claim that his son Aegon was fathered by someone else. He's not a hateful person like King Aegon IV.
@@cosmopeaches2604 again, difference between open pursuits of other partners as a prince , and going behind everyone's back to have an affair that helped kicked off a war leading to a child who could be competition for her children.
@@meri5173exactly . If somehow Aegon II died in HOTD , Jaehaerys would have been crowned King not Aemond
I love how Dorne are more open minded with all the succession and bastards thing
It's a sight better than the other kingdoms' view on bastards.
@@timtheskeptic1147because they’re a promiscuous bunch. they’re truly deprived and shameless
Honestly if the Targaryens were smart, they would have classed up their families bastards. Call them dragons and try to at least marry them off to members of the other great houses where they would take that house’s name like how Aagon brother during the conquest
Not so sure they would be accepting of rhaegar creating an alternative heir to aegon. Dorne may not villafy bastards but they are not treating them equal to trueborn children.
@@CorvoThan Dorne is the only kingdom in Westeros that can legitimately say, "fuck off, I'll do what I want!"
It seems weird to me that Rhaegar was hiding with Lyanna in Dorne, in a tower near the main road, and managed to snuggle a person (most likely related to Hightowers somehow) to marry them but Elia’s family or even Elia herself (who knew about Rhaegar’s obsession with the prophecy) didn’t know about that abd even allowed it.
I suspect they knew. Perhaps the reason why rhaegar needed so much time to return to the capital was that he had to reasure the martels that aegon would stay his heir?
It was almost certainly with the help of the Daynes. While we don't know where the Tower of Joy was located, it was in the Mountains of Dorne, which is also where Starfall is, the castle of House Dayne, where Arthur Dayne's brother was the Lord. Arthur was the most likely person for Rhaegar to have confided in, and when they need to go somewhere with his new paramour, Dayne would have said "I know a place..." and brought them to a tower in or near his family's lands.
Ned's connection to Ashara Dayne would also explain how he found them as well. There is also the point that although only a single companion of his survived the fight to reach Lyanna, he recalls how "they" found him holding her hand. So Lyanna had someone with her as well. Knights, especially from such distinguished and high-ranking families, would not have considered themselves capable of taking care of a pregnant woman or helping her give birth (or seen it beneath their dignity), so, again, they would have turned to the Daynes of Starfall to provide a female attendant &/or midwife.
We know that in the current day, the Lord of Starfall, presumably the son of Arthur's & Ashara's lordly brother, is a boy named Edric Dayne, who is Beric Dondarrion's squire. Edric, known as Ned, was nursed by a Dayne family retainer named Wylla, whom he believes to have been Jon Snow's mother. Wylla is also the name Ned gives Robert for Jon's mother. What it seems is that Wylla was the woman who helped Lyanna during her last days, and she served the Daynes for "years and years" before Lord Edric was born, so that is how the Daynes would have known where Arthur was, and how Ned learned, from the woman he or Brandon hooked up with at Harrenhal. Due to her feelings for whichever Stark brother she had gotten close to, Ashara would have been sympathetic for Ned's desire to reunite with his sister, and told them where to find her. This resulted in her brother being killed. Ned returned Dawn, the ancestral sword of House Dayne, to Starfall and they in turn, appear to have agreed to cover his story. If Wylla was in service to the Daynes of Starfall, she would not have had a whole lot of opportunities to conceive a child with Ned sometime after his marriage to Catelyn, so (some of) the Daynes almost certainly knew the truth, or at least that Jon was not Wylla's son. If Ned wanted her to pretend otherwise, he would have needed a very good reason for it. Anyway, despite a Stark hooking up with Ashara at Harrenhal and getting her with child, which was subsequently stillborn, and then killing their brother Arthur, the Daynes retained a good enough impression of Ned to not only keep his confidence all these years and actively support his story by telling Lord Edric that his wet-nurse bore Lord Stark a bastard son, and even give him the same nickname as Eddard. But all this tragedy would very much explain why Ashara committed suicide shortly after the Rebellion and why Ned is so protective of her memory.
Ashara Dayne lost the man she loved, either to the Mad King, or to an arranged marriage, and her efforts to help his family resulted in her brother's death. Her close friend and liege lady, Princess Elia was brutally murdered along with her little children, whom Ashara had probably held and played with and helped care for, and Ashara herself has lost the only child she could ever have of the man she fell for at the last great day for the kingdom. If she had any post-partum depression on top of that, it explains her suicide (or fleeing to Essos to serve as a religious tutor to a prince in hiding). And it explains why Ned is so furious to hear her name being suggested as Jon's mother.
I agree. Most likely he had to convince the martels that aegon would stay his heir though honestly that was still pretty dangerous. With jon beeing born as a boy and with not beeing of dornish origin there may actually a significant group of people that see him as the true heir
The Nights Watch deserter maybe doesn't get beheaded because Rhaegar has told Ned about the threat from the North.
A happy end for the poor dude xD
But does rhaegar actually know avout the white walkers? Aegons prophecy just speaks about a threat from the north. The wildlings would fit the bill.
Also why should ned believe in rhaegars prophecy? If someone would tell me such a thing i would believe them to be mad. From neds perspective this seems to be the more logical conclusion
@@CorvoThanso people like bran and the wildings having magic abilities to warg into animals and humans is believable but talking about prophecy is were you draw the line and called them mad you do realise rhaenger was right the prophecy is real.
@@mohammadhosseini6675 well people in westeros also dont truly believe in wargs anymore. And rhaegar was definitly wrong. Aegon can not be the prince who was promised
@@CorvoThan He was right about the Night King and the ice zombie invasion and he will 100% listen when he hears dead people are coming back to life, and the nights watch need more men he will probably send a platoon in cycles of maybe 3 to 6 months or more and his own men will confirm the Nights watch claim that the others threat is real ironically the commonder of the nights watch that told Jon it doesn’t matter who sits on the iron throne when in fact it does matter and his wrong because someone like Rhaeger will actually help as well as Robb Stark because of his family which is Jon says take this seriously send help than he will.
If Rhaegar killed Robert I think Ned and Jon Arryn would retreat back to the North and the Vale. Both kingdoms are pretty much invasion proof unless Rhaegar gets a dragon or three. So I agree Rhaegar would use Lyanna to negotiate an end of hostilities with Ned. Rhaegar wants to be king of 7 kingdoms not 5 so he’d have to negotiate to get a United Kingdom to face the Long Night.
Lyanna would've been dead from childbirth.
There is no using her for peace.
What would've happened, is that they both would've immediately retreated for a bit for reinforcements before marching back with more men, and moving to face Rhaegar again, or if it was a bad defeat then they would defend and both become kings of their regions.
The Tullys would've possibly lost their Lord Paramountship, though.
"Does the citadel have documents that this happened" yes, thats how Sam found out about Jon
Which is BS. just think for a second how could nobody check a letter from the most important figure in roberts rebellion who also happened to be the crown prince? D&D were so gdamn stvpid!
@@harukrentz435 actually... this kinda stuff happened through out history all the time. Information being withheld or hidden by loyalists in wars so go in someone's favor only for it to be discovered years later. It happened a lot in WWII and the American Civil War. Think about how many times you've lost important documents or people you know have. Tbh it being stuffed away in the citadel and forgotten is probably the most realistic thing that's happened lol. Not to mention the maesters probably wanted it hidden and forgotten after Rhaegars death. It probably would have been made public knowledge had Rhaegar won Roberts Rebellion.
Why do people take Dorne's chill nature as incompetence. Their Society basically hinges on "we are all people but we all have our places". Oberyn and Ellaria where in love had four kids and could not get married bc she was a bastard. Dorian loves his nieces and adores his daughter's friends but I doubt they got the same level of treatment she got in captivity and it's seen in their individual punishments which were more severe than Arianne's.
Also how's Martell is a prideful house there is no way that you're not going to feel slighted by the birth of Jon passion or not his birth brought a war that could have killed their princess and her children and did kill one of their princes. They will never let Rhaeger make a Deal that incentive the North or elevate them over Dorne
People seem to have the strange opinion that in dorne they accept everything around sex, gender and bastards.
So logically elia will have no problem with rhaegar getting a second wife and from this wife a son that is a real threat to her own sons right to inherite the throne.
She would love the boy because ...in dorne they let bastards inherite their parents seats
Lol… let the North and Dorne go to war and see which side goes back home first…
I thought Ellaria and Oberyn couldn't get married because Oberyn was already married? Hence her being a paramour instead of a wife.
@@aratakasuga4095 nope she was a sand and has as such a lower status than him.
@alexmartin3143 neither side will be able to accomplish anything. If the targaryens couldn't conquer dorne even with dragons, good luck to the starks, and the dornish have no way to get past moat cailin as they don't even have a navy.
What if Viserys only have daughters with Alicent?
What if Jace & Helaena married?
What if Viserys had Aegon married Rhaenyra *After* Laenor’s death?
There is a fanfic in AO3 about Aegon marrying Rhaenyra, slowly updated
@@0predaking0
Why didn’t you mentioned the name?
Now I’m imagining a time line where Lucerys still takes out Aemond’s eye and Viserys then betroths them together
for Jace and Helaena the greens are forced to choose between her or her brother's lives as she would become a hostage for the blacks, the war would still happen because much of the realm would always support Aegon over Rhaenyra or Jace.
what if maegor didn't die on the iron throne instead went to war with jaeheries sorry for misspelling
You should lean into the scenario with multiple part. Show how Rhaegar could use his sister and brother to secure more alliances and the 16 year prep to the long night.
Or the alternate Dance of the Dragons/Blackfyre Rebellion that can result from it. Heck, you can even throw in the YG plot in the books to spice it up.
Shoutout to Stannis, he really had his brothers back even if he didnt love him. Chose his brother over the King.
Stannis did love Robert and Renly. The problem is, they gave nothing back to him and inspired great resentment in him. Part of why Stannis wants the throne is to fill the void created by Robert's lack of respect or appreciation for his labors. It's why he's so resentful toward the Starks, because Ned got the love from Robert that Stannis was denied.
Actually if Rhaegar had Lived Jon might still have been named Jon, but in this case after Jon Connington.
Daenerys mother would probably still die giving birth to her and Cersei has a profecy that she will be a queen until replaced so she could be a likely third wife to Rhegar.
The prophecy would be different because this is a full timeline shift
@@darko-man8549 The prophecy came years before the timeline shifted, and Cersei's personality does not appear to have markedly changed between when she was 17 and the shift occurred, and the present day. Tywin has also not changed his personality at all, and he was planning to marry her to a crown prince or king since the day she was born. So Tywin will be looking to marry her advantageously. Contra the video's nonsense, he will most likely use the more uncertain prospects of the rebels to make high demands for his support. Tywin carries grudges and never lets go of them, but pays them back in the most brutal means he can. He is NOT going to come crawling back to Aerys just because Aerys is winning, he is going to make Aerys ask for his help, and extract concessions for it. Once Rhaegar wins the battle, those concessions look increasingly unlikely to be forthcoming, Aerys is still going to be all paranoid about Tywin and less likely to believe that he needs him.
In the hypothetical in the video, Tywin's most probable course of action is to offer his help to the rebels for Cersei's marriage to Stannis, and his own elevation to the Handship, among other things, and then throw his own power against the crown. We will then still have a Queen Cersei who only cares about power, who has no love for her husband, because Stannis will not treat her the way she wants, and who will be so obsessed with her position and ephemeral things like status and power that she will make the prophecy come true in this timeline as well.
The point of prophecies like this is not to give her a magic fate she cannot escape, but rather to set her up with a self-fulfilling course of action. Cersei could easily deny the prophecy by creating a life full of family and friendships and worthwhile projects and activities, the sort of thing that no one CAN take away, and even as late as handing over the regency and returning to Casterly Rock. But because the only things she can "hold dear" are power and status, which everyone is fighting for, and no one can hold onto forever, she is making the prophecy come true. Because of her paranoia about losing power, she cannot share it, and cannot trust any person who might be capable of beating her, nor any woman who might possibly be younger and more beautiful (and given how time and human aging works, every day the number of women who are younger and more beautiful increases) and so she makes enemies at every turn, and creates people who will try to take her power or status from her because of how she mistreats them. It's the same way the prophecy drove her to make an enemy of Tyrion and also of Jaime, who I think is the actual younger brother to whom it refers. If she had ignored the prophecy and been a loving and kindly sister to both men, neither one would ever want her dead, no matter what crimes she commits and would go down fighting for her.
Basically, the prophecy is not going to be any different when young Cersei visits the fortune-teller with her OTL future ahead of her, or a future where Robert is slain by Rhaegar, because she is the same suspicious, jealous, selfish person, with the same basic nature, who will make the same sort of mistakes, regardless of the name or nature of the king to whom she is married.
@@GunleaverI’m not really allat
@@lumarrandom8144 Wow, can't read OR spell. Am I supposed to feel chastened or flattered?
The TL;DR version is that the prophecy Cersei got as a girl would not likely change, because Tywin would still force her into a loveless marriage with a potential king, enabling all the details to come true, and not creating enough of a change for Cersei herself to be a different person. The prophecy will come true because of who Cersei IS and how she behaves, not because of fate. Cersei will still be the same person in the Rhaegar wins timeline.
Or she could marry Aerys. Thus fulfilling Maggie the Frog's prophecy of her not marrying the prince but the king.
One problem with the initial argument for the change in the timeline; the North, Vale, and Riverland forces arrived shortly after Robert lands the killing blow. If Rhygar takes his time to win, then the North hell bent on vengeance will arrive the the Vale and Riverland troops before Robert could be killed.
Not to mention the if Rhygar does kill Robert as you say his men are in disarray and would be unable to stop the fresh troops from sweeping them from the field. Rhygar is almost certain to die if he engages with Robert. For Rhygar to win he has to hold back and when the North, Vale, and Riverlands arrive fall back and fight a series of running battles to keep the Rebel army after him and blind to it's terrain until Rhygar can get a field advantage to counter the larger force of the rebels.
We can't forget Robert was too badly injured to continue the war and Ned Stark became leader of Robert's Rebellion. Therefore the rebellion's name would change. If Robert died as the war was the insult to the Stark family foremost. Lyanna was taken, Rickard and Brandon Stark killed by the king. The Starks and the North have the most reason for war. Not Robert. Robert was the loudest voice over the insult of Lyanna's taking. The result of this change would be a name change and a great council to choose a new king. Tywin would be afraid to deliver kings landing like he did if Robert was dead because Ned was married to Catlynn and Ned was know to be a quite and kind individual. Tywin wouldn't be able to marry Cersie off to Ned nor would he risk Ned's unknown reaction to the underhanded tactics we have in the books
wouldn't stannis be the next in line if robert dies? or would viserys become the next king?
@@AwesomeReshiram Yes for the Rebels Stannis has the stronger blood claim to the throne which Robert used to justify his kingship. For the Royalists it would go to Viserys would be next in line. So viserys would still go to Dragonstone with his mother. And Ned Stark marches to Kingslanding with the North, Vale, and Riverland forces intact and the Stormlanders that survived the battle at the Ruby Ford. During the March south the Rebel army would be too large to attack directly from the remaining "loyal" lords and Tywin wouldn't march to sack Kingslanding. This would put the Reach in a bad situation which their siege of Storm's End. They'll have to choose to lift the siege to either join the Rebels or lift the siege to help Kingslanding. This will let Stannis rally new troops and the Rebels would make him king as he would be free to marry for alliance.
It was more than Arthur Dayne & Gerold Hightower at the Tower of Joy. That’s just what they depicted in the show. Another Kingsguard, Oswell Whent was there in the books.
He named him Aegon because of the prophecy Of Fire and Ice. He was suppose to be the “one”. Rhegar was known to be obsessed with the prophecy as well.
make a what if Aegon V didn't die in The Tragedy of summerhall, and had managed to hatch dragon eggs, let's say 3 dragon eggs to make it interesting, how would that change history from that point o,n with no one dying in summerhall and dragons returning to the world?
What would suck is that he would probably have given one to young Aerys. He wasn't bat shit insane. Imagine him later on, as King and dragon rider.
@@dang2320 you're right I haven't thought about that but maybe he wouldn't turn crazy, because in aegon V would rule for much longer
Aerys really went batshit crazy when he was kidnapped. I find that hard to imagine happening if he was a dragon rider@@dang2320
@@dang2320cruel as Maegor, not as skilled a killer, and a far smaller younger dragon. I bet he’d have taken his psychosis out on the small folk instead of landed lords, since he wouldn’t have the support of as many powerful yes men as early.
I love these stories. They are fun and less brutal. Sometimes I just like fantasy without all the savagery
21:59 my brother who is depressed said to me the other day “I didn’t ask to be born” and as I told him “no one asks to be born it’s impossible to ask to be born!”. Your comment where you said Jon didn’t ask to be born reminded me of that
20:12 yes they literally do. In one episode in season 7, gilly literally reads about a septon annulling the marriage to elia and marrying rhaegar to lyanna
* What if Jace Velaryon lived?
* What if Ned Stark accepted the Iron Throne, instead of Robert?
**HotD spoilers
I imagine a little speech from Jace like have won Greens this is the end for you. (Except for you auntie). In BW Meg Style
Ned could not have actually taken the throne, Jaime saying that was nonsense. Robert's claim to the throne was supported because his grandmother was a Targaryean and because house Baratheon was founded by Aegon the Conquerors bastard brother Orys.
2:20 Ess-saws? We have never heard it pronounced like this. It’s already been Ess-OHs
I always thought Jon’s name in the book would be Rhaegar the second
Huh an idea I’ve literally never heard before, I’ve heard Daeron, Aemon, Jaehaerys even names like Daemon but never Rhaegar because that wouldn’t be his name, never in asoiaf history has a father called their son their own name at least if I remembering correctly, it just isn’t a trend like in own history
@@cosmiccollie5032kind of makes sense though since he thought he literally Was the main character and that his third child would be Azor Ahai/ The Chosen One so in an act of arrogance Rhaegar II doesnt sound too far fetched.
@cosmiccollie5032 the umbers, they're both named Jon, they're just called greatjon and smalljon to differentiate between the 2
Viserys.
Given the names of his other children and his whole "the Dragon must have three heads" Rhaegar was almost certainly trying to replicate the conquering siblings. So having already had a Rhaenys and an Aegon, he would have expected to have a daughter with Lyanna who would then be named Visenya and be the third head of his dragon and sister-wife to his other children. Viserys seems to be the male equivalent of Visenya.
And, yes, I know they are out of order, but it seems like he began to believe the prophecy referred to his son shortly before, or upon his birth. Especially since the prophecy cites birth conditions, so maybe he decided that the circumstances fit, so it had to be his new baby boy. Rhaenys was the eldest child and her name could have been chosen without any regard for prophecy as a feminine reference to his name, just as he was named similarly to his mother, Rhaella. So then, he has a son, decides that he is the Prince Who Was Promised, and names him Aegon, and hey, he's already got a Rhaenys, so yeah, this can work, we just need a Visenya...
I can’t help but hear “Aeg! Aeg! Mother is looking for you!” (😢 I adored Maester Aemon Targaryen)
I really like this video! There's just one thing I think is almost definitely incorrect: Elia's opinion on the matter would probably have no bearing on the potential annulment/plural marriage situation, and it could potentially be considered legally valid. It might be considered dubious for other reasons, but not because of her stance on it.
Should it? Yes. But in a legal sense, her assent isn't required. The marriage laws of Westeros are largely religious, so most likely it would just require a high enough religious leader. It's also likely that there's an established process for this (Renly expected Robert to set Cersei aside for Margery, implying there is a procedure), and it would probably require the High Septon to be involved. It would likely require proving some defect in or transgression by one of the parties, since it's unlikely that no fault divorces exist in Westeros, to whatever their version of an ecclesiastical tribunal/court is. That only requires one party to get involved. Also, public announcement may not be a requirement and may have been held off on because of how fractious everything was at the time. But if there were paperwork and documents showing that the High Septon had agreed Rhaegar could set Elia aside prior to him marrying Lyanna there likely wouldn't be legal grounds for anyone to object, including Elia.
I don't actually think that Rhaegar married Lyanna in the books, my personal theory is that she didn't want to marry and he (as part of his ongoing effort to groom a literal child, wtf Rhaegar) agreed that she could become something like an official lover/favorite and any of their children would be made legitimate either by his father or by him once he became king. But let's say he did. There are a couple options for how things went down:
Illegal/unrecognized ceremony: Rhaegar basically pulled a Maegor and went "let's do a Valyrian ceremony," which no part of the country lawfully recognizes. Basically everyone would consider them not to be married and Elia to be his only wife. Elia's opinion would be moot.
They got married in front of a heart tree with no other preperation: first men culture does historically allow for plural marriages, as does Valyrian culture. Unless there are specific non-ecclesiastical laws specifying that you may have only one spouse, passed by a Targaryen monarch, this would arguably be a valid marriage (also, GRRM has made statements implying such laws do not explicitly exist). It would also probably piss off the entire Faith and they would declare it invalid, at which point it becomes a question of how much support Rhaegar has and how willing he is to lead the country into another civil war over all this. (Interestingly, you could also make the argument that Lyanna was the equivelent of a "salt wife," which gives fewer rights than being a "rock wife" but does mean her children wouldn't be bastards. To the Iron Born, anyway, although I doubt the Faith would agree with that either). In this sort of case, Elia's opinion would still be relatively unimportant, since there's no indication that any of the relevant cultures require the assent of a wife to her husband taking other wives.
They were married with the consent of/by the High Septon under the doctrine of Targaryen exceptionalism: this would make it a fully legally valid plural marriage, although some elements of the Faith would still raise a stink about it. Lyanna would be considered Rhaegar's fully legal wife, and it's less likely there would be a civil war. Elia's opinion would likely not be consulted, and it's likely she would not be informed until afterward if at all.
Rhaegar set Elia aside, AH edition: Rhaegar in the longstanding tradition of "I have power and money so I'll do what I want" put pressure on the High Septon to agree to set Elia aside because he really wanted to marry someone else. This would probably be closer to a divorce than an annulment- this would mean he was no longer married to her, but his children were still his legitimate heirs. Elia possibly should have been informed, but Rhaegar was throwing his weight around so she wasn't. It is unlikely her not knowing beforehand would be sufficent to overturn the seperation, although it might if there are protection laws in place for wives or if she could prove that the accusation levied against her was baseless. Of course, she would either be proving this to the High Septon who agreed to it or to the king, so she may not have much luck, but she might have some legal recourse.
Rhaegar annuled his marriage to Elia: this is AH version 2, electric boogaloo. Since annulling a marriage is functionally undoing it altogether, Rhaegar would basically need to prove the marriage was never valid to begin with. This would make his children illegitimate, outrage a great many people, and be unlikely to work at all. Elia's opinion on this would be largely irrelevant, since it's proving the marriage never really happened properly (since she's given him children, it's unlikely that it would be voidable). "Was the marriage legally constructed?" is an objective test, and her views wouldn't be relevant to it. Nor would she necessarily need to be informed, since such a pronouncement is less "you are now divorced" and more "our bad, you were never married" which wouldn't necessarily require notification.
The only remotely sensible option- Rhaegar set Elia aside for cause: Renly expecting Robert to do this to Cersei implies that it is a procedure which can occur (if likely a highly involved, expensive one that is only available to the very rich/powerful). We don't know what grounds exist for it, but the most likely ones are: infertility, failure to perform marital duties, adultery, and possibly certain types of crime (like treason) as well. Elia gave Rhaegar children, and we have no reason to believe she cheated or commited treason, but she is likely failing to perform her marital duties. It's stated that more children would be impossible/kill her, making it unlikely they're being intimate and possibly going back to the infertility angle. In this case, Elia might need to be called upon to be asked if she is actually no longer able to have children/denying her husband his 'rights,' but statements from other trusted members of the community (like the Grand Maester) would probably be sufficent. If the High Septon were convinced this was the case, he might agree to annul the marriage. She might have needed to be notified in this case, but there probably wouldn't be a requirement for a public announcement and things would have been kept qquiet because of the rebellion.
I also feel like it's worth noting that if Elia's options were "certainly die (probably in childbirth)" or "let your husband marry someone else," she would probably choose the latter. A husband does have rights to his wife in Westerosi culture, and Rhaegar could have pushed the matter on the hope his third child would survive even if she didn't. So even if her assent/notification was required (which is unlikely) she probably couldn't do much to fight it anyway.
ETA: some of the Fire and Blood stuff apparently implies it's a king's perogative to set a wife aside? In which case it would have to be either Aerys or one of his many Hands. Which is entirely possible, given that one of those Hands was Jon Connington. But in that case, Elia's opinion would be even less of a factor since it'd basically just be based on the will of the king rather than an established legal or ecclesiastical custom.
This is way more thought than Benioff and Weiss gave the matter.
@@Gunleaver Maybe, although most of it boils down to "women aren't worth that much in Westeros." And given how things went in season 8, they seemed to vibe with that idea XD
You’re totally ignoring the fact that in any circumstance where Rhaegar set aside his marriage with Elia Martell and married, and legitmitized his children with someone else, Dorne would be on his ass and they would not take kindly to it. Meaning there would be some kind of war in that circumstance.
@pokemcnmaster I wasn't ignoring it. My point was that Elia wouldn't have much to do with that.
It'd be her brothers pissed off and fighting. Her opinion on the situation is likely irrelevant there too, if she wants them to fight and Doran says no she won't, if she didn't want war but her House decided to fight she would be expected not to make a fuss.
Elia is not a party with agency in this. Doran is, Rheagar is, Oberyn maybe is and their houses are, but she isn't. So her personal opinion would have no bearing on the legality, and little if any on the outcome
19:30 There is a theory(I think it was In Deep Geek) that the reason Rhaegar spent the first part of the Rebellion in Dorne was to negotiate with Doran for an annulment to Elia so he could marry Lyanna. Doran agrees as long as both of his grandchildren have primacy over Rhaegar's child with Lyanna
Also, the dragons actually have a REALLY high chance of still hatching. Illyrio gave those eggs to Dany as a wedding gift...not Viserys. This was planned well in advance, as he had to aquire them. And...he was already part of a group trying to get Targaryen rule back in Westeros. So he was already a supporter, and has little reason not to. He more than likely would still attend whatever wedding Dany has and still give her the eggs, somehow accidently hatching them, if not purposely if he stumbles on info.
Than she just has to have more luck than all her ancestors who basicly did the same thing like her in the books minus the witch.
Also wouldnt he give the eggs to aegon or rhaegar? Dany would be only a princess marrieng in the best case viserys since rhaegar would defintly let his son marry his sister
@@CorvoThan theres a theory that the women targaryens were the ones with the power to hatch the eggs, not the men. It explains why he gave them to Dany and not Viserys, despite backing Viserys' claim. Its possible they would be given to any Targaryen, really, I just assume theyd still go to Dany since there was no reason not to gift them to Viserys in the first place, so mustve been for a reason.
Keep in mind all of her ancestors who tried didnt have eggs, and were also men. They werent trying to hatch dragons, but create one out of themselves. It doesnt take luck to see why that would fail.
@@Rhaenarys sadly there were quite a few male targaryen that had their eggs hatched before the dance. Take rhaenyras children. It also wouldnt make sense that valyrian culture is seemingly still a patriarchat. Atleast if we go after targaryen inheritance-tradition prior to the conquest.
Further when there was in world such knowledge than it wouldnt make sense that a non-targaryen would know this but no targaryen themself.
Further grr martin said himself that dany managing to hatch the dragons was a lucky series of circumstances which she wont be able to repeat. Since this theory is based on the only resurecting hatching of dragons happening by a woman, this seems to contradict it.
So that theory seems to me nothing more than a fancy way to claim that "the women in the targaryen family were the truly special ones" than an serious theory.
(Also the premise is wrong. There were many attempts at hatching eggs. Only in harrenhall they lost their last ones)
@@CorvoThan all eggs were hatched in the presence of women, including Rhaenyras childrens eggs. Regardless, i admit its a theory. It just seems to have more support when you consider tge fact there was no reason to gift them to Dany in the first place, and NOT Viserys, considering he would have much more use to them, and as youve said, why not the one with the claim?
Its not exactly unreasonable to think someone in Pentose or on that side of Essos altogether to have possible knowledge of how it may be possible considering the Valyrians, Targaryens included, came from Essos to begin with, so not like the people of Essos were clueless about dragons and have never seen any before. The people collectively in all the years have seen way more dragons, many were even slaves of the dragonriders at one point, than all the people ever lived in Westeros, as even though there were dragons, not to the same number.
Point is...thats a LOT more experience and knowledge to pass down through the generations to be all forgotten, unlike with the Targaryens, were the knowlegde easily couldve been lost after the Dance. They didnt have a lot of people sharing this info back and forth, not a lot of families sharing dragons, and pretty much killed each other completely, the sides that did have dragons. Its a fact the less people in a group to have some information, the less likely of that information being shared to the next generations. So the chances of people on Essos having knowledge on dragons that Dany and Viserys never got is actually pretty high. Especially when you consider its also highly likely those dragon eggs are the ones stolen by that one girl years before the Dance of Dragons (dont have my book in front of me, and admittedly suck at remembering names in general, not helping my brainfart. Alyssa Farman, i believe?)
Those egss have been around Essos for a while, and with people who had money...and knowledge. After all, Illyrio works with the master of spiders. Its not like gaining info isnt part of their gig. So the chances of them having some sort of clue or knowledge the rest of the Targaryens didnt have is still high.
I dont remember any eggs after the Dance that didnt hatch and either die sickly or immediately get killed, ill have to check that. And wasnt too many attempts after that, and those that were done had to do with wildfire. Dany had special dreams and instincts telling her to put them in the fire. Not wildfire lol. And yes, it was a combination of magical events going that wasnt normal for dragon hatching. But...thats not to say they wouldnt have hatched on their own later. And nothing about that says that Targaryen women cant have a special gene or whatever that makes the process happen, that isnt based in some magic.
To be clear, i simplified the theory heavily. A good part of the theory is based around genetics and having a certain x chromosome with the trait. Hence why not all women Targaryens can do it. And only a few. It could be Dany had a single gene, the theory requires 2 to work, hence female, and the magic aided the other "gene" or acted as it. This also takes into account that despite some mistakes, Martin does take a special interest in genetics and often pushes genetics and the importance of in his stories.
But yes, it is just a theory, (a game theory! Sorry couldnt help it there lol) but the main reason it fits is because Illyrio gave Dany the eggs...NOT Viserys. We should be asking why not, if the idea is he would give them to Rhaegar instead. After all, Illyrio was betting on Viserys up until his death. And even with "Aegon" in the books, he didnt give them to him, either. Why not?
I think thats what people should be asking.
@@CorvoThan also, just to be really clear, its not my theory, so I might not be representing it 100% accurate, but to the best of my ability. Its not so much saying women are the truly special ones, unless your idea only women give birth in general makes them truly special. It just acknowledges the fact that women are the ones that bring life, not men, and that xx chromosome means youre the sex that brings life into the world. Theres way more to it like the dragon bonds and magic used to bond them centuries before even the Dance, when Old Valyria was still the big dog, and even before that. It covers a lot of history, and also doesnt necessarily even claim anyone has knowledge of it being the reason it happens, buts notes whenever a dragon is hatched, a female is always present.
I can see why when i explain it it comes off as half cooked, because i didnt make it. I can only explain it to the best of my ability.
Rhaegar did not "seemingly" kidnap Lyanna. A kidnapping charge does not evaporate if the underage child voluntarily gets in the van! Lyanna was 16 when she died, and the war between the rebels and royals lasted for a year, with considerable time passing between Lyanna being taken by Rhaegar, and the outbreak of the fighting. First Lyanna disappeared. Then Brandon found out she was taken by Rhaegar, so he rode from the Riverlands to Kingslanding, where he was imprisoned and his father summoned to court. Rickard made the long journey from Winterfell, and was murdered along with Brandon, Aerys sent word to the Eyrie demanding the murder of Robert and Ned, and Jon refused, and rebelled, summoning his vassals and troops to fight, which began with Gulltown, where the lord in charge refused Jon's summons and sided with the crown. There would have been talks and negotiations, attempting to get him back on side, before they assaulted the city. And then, there is a year of fighting, culminating in the sack of Kings Landing and the murder of the royal family, after which Ned rode south to Storm's End (and as we see in aCoK), moving an army that distance takes some time, and Ned is specifically contrasted with people who rush headlong into action. After Storm's End was relieved, he then rode to Dorne, almost certainly stopping at Starfall, to learn where Lyanna was being held (Jon was nursed by a retainer of House Dayne, and Arthur Dayne's siblings would be the most likely to know where in the mountains of Dorne he was hiding out with a pregnant woman). Only after all this had transpired, did Lyanna die with Ned at her side, at age 16.
The long and short is, Lyanna was WELL below the age of consent when she went with Rhaegar. Rhaegar DID kidnap Lyanna, regardless of how willing she was.
Minors aren't a thing in westoros genius
@@MylesKillis Read the books, of course they are. Where do you get things like Cersei being the Queen Regent, or Robert naming Ned to rule the realm until his son comes of age? Why is Lysa calling the shots, and then Petyr in the Vale of Arryn when her son, Robin, is the heir and the son of the last lord, Jon? It's because when the king or lord is a minor, he does not rule, an adult has to do the job for him. They absolutely have the concept of minors, and the age at which you become a legal adult is 16. Lyanna was not old enough to rule if her father and all her brothers died, leaving her as Lady of Winterfell, and she was not old enough to break her own betrothal or marry without parental consent, much less hook up with a man in his 20s.
@@Gunleaver I agree that there is a concept of minors, but it is quite different between men and women. A nobleman coming of age gives him the right to full authority if he is lord. A noblewoman coming of age is more marked by her first period and her ability to be wed and have children. Also, she would still need parental consent to marry, as these are the ways of traditional medieval societies.
@@harmonic_snow Well, that's still supporting my position that Rhaegar is, in fact, committing a serious offense by the laws of their society.
By real life rules, Rhaegar is in his 20s and Lyanna is no more than 15, so it's rape. By Westeros laws, Lyanna has no parental consent, and furthermore, is in a binding agreement to marry another man, so it's rape.
And no, your comparison is not accurate. There is a difference between adulthood and the age of consent. The age of consent in much of the US is about 16 or so, but you are not a legal adult, nor empowered to make critical life choices until 18. Westeros has the same concepts. Tywin tells Joffrey when the king is ranting about wanting the heads of traitors regardless of Tywin's intention to offer generous terms, that he only head his grandson needs to worry about is Margaery's maidenhead. Basically, Joffrey is old enough to have sex, but not old enough to rule on his own, which is firmly established in the various books as no less than 16.
Just because it is lawful to marry a woman and have sex with her does not follow that she is a legal adult or able to make a marriage pact or repudiate a betrothal contract. Arguably, Lyanna running off with Rhaegar proves this, because this is something she CAN do about her marriage to Robert, when she lacks the legal authority to refuse him.
Furthermore, the situation is even more extreme for women, who lack many of the rights and powers of an adult man. Even a fully-grown woman is subject to the authority of the male head of her household, and has limited power to arrange her own marriage. MAYBE, Lyanna and Rhaegar could have got away with it if she was 20 or so, but the Starks and Baratheons would still be perceived as the wronged parties and a gesture of some sort from Rhaegar, such as lands or honors or considerations in dealing with the crown, would be considered the minimum compensation they were entitled to. For a 14-15 year old girl, betrothed to someone else? Every lord in Westeros was in agreement with Robert & Brandon, objectively speaking, even if their current alliances or political interests necessitated or invited siding with the king.
@@Gunleaver Rhaegar is committing a serious offence. Whether one counts rape, kidnapping, grooming or the offense to his wife's family in terms of the societal expectations in Westeros.
I just do not see how modern, real life laws have anything to do with it. Yes, for us pedophilia is a thing.
In the world of Westeros it is also known as a criminal condition, yet it does not matter once a woman reaches her adulthood, which does not seem to have a particular number of years to follow.
Now I haven't read the books in a long time, and I'm also not trying to debate. Was just curious about the comment! Have a nice day!
Edit: My own comment seemed a bit dry. I meant to say that I am not actually sure if women are considered adult at a specific age in the context of Westeros and ASOIAF because I'd have to read the books again and find the details.
So my first comment was not debating, simply raising my doubts for discussion
In Westeros Elia's consent would mean nothing if Rhaegar wanted to anull his marriage with her. And then as king he can easily make Jon legitimate and in line to the throne so there would be tension, but the matter in itself wouldn't be a big issue.
I wrote an entire fanfiction about this.
Basically, it opens with Rhaegar rebuilding Summerhall. The main characters are Tyrion, who in this timeline is an innovitive genius. Dany, who gets held hostage by the North, and Rhaegar's kids who end up developing Rhoynar water magic from their Martell side. Ned and the Starks begin as the "bad guys" but end up doing so to try to spurn the realm into battling the rising White Walkers.
It's a good read, ngl. Rhaegar actually does get killed by Robert, but gets brought back to life. Rises like a zombie and stabs Robert from the back.
I don't think the war would have ended right there. Which means Lyanna probably dies before any of that Ned plot you have gets done.
The only issue with what happens with Stannis is that he has literally been under a siege for the entire rebellion up to the point of The Battle of the Trident. House Tyrell had a massive army holding siege of Storm's End, so how would the Baratheon's pull out of the rebellion if Stannis likely had 0 knowledge of how things are going
This is a big problem with most of these videos as well as with the shows. People have baked in assumptions about information proliferation and travel time that are based on modernity and have no bearing in a medieval world.
@@Sebomai-b8i exactly. To begin to theory craft for something like this you have to take stock of the methods possible for aquiring information. Sure they had ravens for communication, but as history tells us, armies target the communcations of their opponents. Exhibit A carrier pigeons in ww1 being shot to halt vital messages. This same tactic could be applied against ravens, though the desired effect is likely harder to achieve. In effect Stannis is fully cut off from all information while in Storm's End, and I doubt word would reach the Tyrells to left the siege in a timely manner either
In the original story Ned goes from the trident to kings landing and then with a small delay in kings landing to the tower of joy. How could Ned go from the trident all the way north to at least moat cailin, most likely all the way to winterfell and then BACK down to the tower of joy in dorne in the same time.
If Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar then she has my full sympathies, but if she went with Rhaegar willingly then she is a fucking hypocrite for judging Robert for having bastards then she turns around and runs away with another womans man and has a bastard of her own.
PS: Rhaegar can not have two wives the targeryans are not allowed, they can marry siblings but not have two wives, so jon would still be a bastard.
Lyanna was 16 when she died, only 15 at most when she was kidnapped/left, and he started making moves on her when she was 14. Rhaegar was 22-24. If he told her he and his wife were amicably seperating because she couldn't have more children and he needed more (a spare at least), that he was in love with her and would marry her/make her children legitimate, etc. that would likely have seemed reasonable to the literal child he was grooming.
There is also a world of difference between "man who goes after every warm body in a skirt" and "man who is divorced." Even if divorce isn't much of a thing in their culture for obvious reasons, it's not out of the question that Elia would be fine with Rhaegar keeping a lover and legitimizing her kids (which seems like a more likely agreement for the two to have reached in the books) and Lyanna being willing to go along with that.
Plus, even if she did initially go with him willingly, she still wound up being essentially imprisoned either way (Ned's dream isn't reliable, but the Kingsguard refused to let him in when she was calling for him which seems fairly telling. It's also likely they either didn't tell her what was going on or refused to let her write/do anything to try and clear up whatever misunderstanding there was)
It would be no surprise that a guy who thought it was reasonable to effectively groom a young teenager and isolate her from her family probably also lied to her.
PS: They aren't supposed to have plural marriages because it upsets the Faith, not because it's necessarily illegal.
But more relevantly, if he set Ellia aside then he would no longer be married in a legal sense and could take another wife. It's unlikely and difficult to do, especially since she's given him children, but in actual history it has been done at times when a woman can't/won't perform her 'marital duties.' Given that another pregnancy could kill Ellia so she wouldn't be joining him in their marital bed, and that as prince he could pull some strings with the High Septon, it's not inconceivable that he could have done so.
Not by the Rites of Westerns but maybe throw the Northern Rites it's another thing or by the Valyrian Rites like we saw on the show
@@robinarkell7221Elia was from the South I'm quite sure she was there XD
@0predaking0 She would likely be OK with him having a lover, but having one too openly might undermine her status in court and legitimising the children (especially sons) might be an issue.
But also, the point is kinda moot. It's highly likely that Elia and Lyanna never actually met, and given all the sketchiness going on, Rhaegar might well have lied/exaggerated/assumed without actually checking with Elia. My point was more that a sheltered 15 year old who thinks she's in love/is looking for any out would probably believe him when he said that his wife was okay with this because she's from Dorne. Lyanna probably knew little but stereotypes about Dorne and may not have realized all the courtly bs ways this could be a potential problem for Elia, so it'd seem plausible to her.
Targaryens follow old Valaryan customs of marriage. The faith allows it due to the Doctrine of Exceptionalism.
I don't have any insightful or creative thoughts on who the promised prince might be, but I think it being a "prince" would be logical to not necessarily have the king unite the seven kingdoms. It could be a prince who seems to have a lot of charisma and unites the people in battle against the wights and ends up being known as the greatest battle commander and war strategists in the history of Westeros.
When is part 2 with the bronze dragon Maegor.
Yes!!!!
Realistically speaking, those dragons would be a huge asset in the fight against the others. If Rhaegar had survived and Dani would have never gone to Essos and therefore the second (supposed) long night would happen without dragons, Westeros and it's inhabitants would have been royally f***ed. Sure the ones wielding Valyrian steel blades could kill a few white walkers, but they'd been buying time at best. Long story short, Rhaegar dying at the trident might not have been the worst thing in the long run.
There is actually hints too that Rheagar even planned on overthrowing his father for Rhaegar didn't like his father before the war happen.
I'd also wonder whom Rhaegar would pick for Aegon and Rhaenys, since they are alive, and he really needs to stabilize the realm. Or Viserys, since he'd reach marrying age sooner than them.
Aegon and Rhaenys would likely be expected to marry each other. Both to secure the bloodline and because it would stop any Dornish complaints about competing claims (since she's older and would inherit under their law- it's unlikely there would be actual conflict over that but better to keep it from being an issue where possible). Rhaegar also clearly believes in magic bloodline prophecy stuff, so it'd make sense that he wants to hedge his bets just in case.
Viserys is iffier, but my guess would be Margery. He's 6 years older than her, but that isn't an uncommon age gap for a political marriage, and she would either already be born by this point or be born soon after. There also aren't any other major families I'm aware of that have a daughter in that age range, so it makes sense.
@@robinarkell7221 For a moment I forgot that Targ are Targs XD
@@akechijubeimitsuhide XD yeaaaaah...
It might make sense to spread them out for alliance marriages, but the targs be targing
No way Rhaegar names Tywin as his hand. I don't believe for a second he trusted Tywin. He would need to make peace with some of the pissed off people from the war. Decent chance it goes to Jon Arryn still, I would think. The question is how forgiving people are gonna be off the affair that started the war. Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna come off well in light of this whole war being caused by them being horny and ghosting everybody. Some high school level shit.
I saw a good fanfiction where Jon's real name is Baelon, a Valyrian take on a Northern Name, specifically Bael the Bard who was King Beyond the Wall for a time and stole a Daughter from the King of Winter
The fact that this video has nearly 250k views based on a character who was only mentioned in the books and show is mindblowing and shows how amazing the song of ice and fire truly is
It's not really mind-blowing. Rhaegar is perhaps the most important character in a Song of Ice and Fire. Almost all of the major events that occur in the main story are a result of his rather mysterious actions.
( For 20:08 ) There's a private journal of the septoon who married Lyanna and Rheagar. Sam stumbled upon it when he was transcribing it. (show version)
Lyanna named Jon Aegon in the show, we have no idea what she names him in the book
(Reads title) ah, one of my fav Crusader Kings’ A Game of Thrones timelines
Viserys wasn’t just a beggar Je was Passed around by ground men in Esso’s & Absolutely abused! The book actually makes his behavior not excusable but understandable!
25:30 also rickard stark married his first cousin lyarra
Not even going to mention what that scumbag Rhagar said to Ser Jamie right before he left for the trident??? He clearly had big plans...plus you're wrong about Khal Raget turning out to be a good lad, he was a Joffrey the 1st long before the rebellion...Barry the bold Ser Jamie and others seen that boy wasn't right and definitely was his father's son. It's actually the main reason why Ser Barry hid his identity at first when he joined up with team dany. He wanted to be damn sure she wasn't her father's daughter and didn't show the same glaring signs that varys did
I feel like marrying his daughter to Robb, or Dany to Robb would make more sense, and finally complete that promise Jace made in 130ac 😅
If Rhaegar had put Viserys in the faith so he didn't have a rival to deal with, and he legitimized Jon/Viserion... Then rebuilt Summerhall..and say granted it to him so he'd have land to inherit, then yeah also marrying Jon/Viserion to Sansa would then make more sense instead of to a landless youngest son.
I think things might play out a bit differently here. Stannis is still likely to support the rebellion due to Aerys not being likely to forgive house Baretheon even if Robert is dead. If Rhaegar does join the rebellion it is likely he would do so by securing support of the houses involved. This would lead to Jon being betrothed to Shireen and Danny being betrothed to Robin Arryn, this secures Rhaegar an alliance with the major players in the rebellion. There's also the possibility that Viserys is promised to house Tully. Rhaegar's wife is still likely to die during Danny's birth so he probably ends up married to Cersei to secure the Lannisters probably as a package for letting Jami free of his oath as a kings guard and allowing him to return as heir to Casterly Rock. To appease the Martel's and Dorne it is likely any children bore by Cersei are promised to the Martel's. The big questions are would Rhaegar get his hands on the Dragon Eggs or not and would they still hatch for Danny if he did?
So basically, Rhaegar would have LOTS of cleaning up to do, and mistakes to amend for. Yeah, Rhaegar winning would've led to quite something 😅
I still feel the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna BS really was handled extremely poorly from every angle. In what universe did they think this would've worked wonders without a hitch? Absolute morons
A group of my friends are running a GURPs RPG in an Alternate GOT Universes where this happens.
We have a full write up on how things would of changed.
The idea of this is interesting.
I have a hard time believing any amount of persuading would convince Ned to go to the tower of Joy as far away from the North as possible knowing what happened to his father after the same ploy was used on him after Brandon's capture
This video shows that Lyanna was in fact kidnaped. If not that means she let her dad and brother die and she risked lives of other family memmbers
Dude can you do a follow-up/sequel to this one? Like you said, there are SO many things this effects and I'd love to see more of the characters and stories this impacts
Ned found 3 kingsguard knights guarding his sister, you forgot Oswell Whent who was in the series, while Gerold Hightower was left out
Ooooh this needs a part 2 and 3!!! :D So many things would change!!!
I heard "being cruel" as "being cool" and now Im thinking of Maegor the Cool. Ngl a lot of the more infamous Targaryeans are pretty cool. Maegor, Daemon the Rogue Prince, Daeron the Young Dragon, even Prince Rhaegar, all some pretty swagged out dudes.
Ned wouldn’t need the letter form Lyanna from everything we know about Ned he believes in men’s honor no matter how smarmy they are and would trust Rhegaer
Can definitely tell this video is aimed towards the casual audience that only watch the show
If Rhaegar won at the Battle of the Trident, I imagine he would have handled the rebels like Daeron II did with the rebels in the first Blackfyre Rebellion. After Daemon Blackfyre's allies were defeated by the royalists, King Daeron II demand a hostage from each of the defeated rebel houses to ensure their future loyalty. With House Baratheon, Rhaegar would probably be given Renly Baratheon as a hostage. With Houses Tully and Arryn, Rhaegar might secure Lysa Tully, who is Jon Arryn's wife and a daughter of Hoster Tully. With House Stark, Rhaegar would not need any more hostages because his son with Lyanna would be the only Stark hostage he would need and Ned Stark would do anything to protect his sister's son. As for who would marry who in this alternate timeline, I imagine Prince Aegon marrying Margery Tyrell to secure the Reach's crops and livestock in preparation for the Long Night. Robb Stark would marry Daenerys Targaryen in an attempt to reconcile the Starks and Targaryens. After being legitimized, (Jon Snow) would likely marry Arianne Martell or another Martell daughter to reconcile with Dorne. In addition, Viserys and Rhaenys would marry like Daemon and Rhaenyra did.
The problem with Sansa being betrothed to Viserion is the same problem of him being named heir: hes still a bastard. Rhaegar would have to do a LOT of work to make it a worthy betrothal in Neds eyes, as well as Cats. Ned would be insulted, after still being angry, because he would...as Rhaegar would become the new Jaime for him...and would NOT accept. Rhaegar would have to give up the sibling marriage tradition and betroth Aegon to Sansa instead.
Or Viserys to Sansa, as hed still be alive and fine. Maybe a lot less "crazy" too, as he wouldnt have to go through all that trauma that got him to that final point.
@@Rhaenarys technically he wouldn't still be bastard in this what if as rhaegar immediately legitimized him.
@@fightingmedialounge519 like i said, he would have to do A LOT of work to raise new Jons station high enough for Ned and Cat, the party still more than likely very angry about the past, to accept it. This means somehow making new Jon, or Viserion, a warden somewhere, displacing another house. Wardens usually married their kids amongst each other, hence why the cousin marriage wasnt so taboo. The Starks probably would have to reach out to lesser houses eventually, but not for Sansa, the first born daughter. Even Arya is more fit for a wardens son over a lesser house.
And theres no way Ned would be so willing to make peace that easily. Ned would already be extremely POed when finding out his sister ran off and got rhe family killed. She might even be disowned at that point, being seen as the Stark wh0re by most of the realm, because sexism was still alive and well in this world. Simply legitamizing Viserion wouldnt change all the anger and hate Ned would feel for Rhaegar, as like i said, Rhaegar would be the new Jaime, but on another level as Rhaegar dishonored the Starks personally. It would take a lot more than simply legitamizing him.
Sorry. I tend to ramble on sometimes about GoTs topics lol. Its one of my special interests.
@@Rhaenarys again doesn't necessarily have to be a warden. Again he would have been legitimate pretty much immediately. The issue arragment is purely their personal feelings regarding the targaryians. Also I doubt ned would disown her considering he still very much cherish his sister in the show depsite knowing it was a consensual affair with rhaegar(the books are different matter).
@@fightingmedialounge519 im speaking purely off of the Starks personal feelings. The story changes entirely if he lives and Robert dies...and its all revealed she left willingly with him, and couldnt even tell at least Benjen in regards to feelings. Lyanna is no longer the victim of an evil and cruel regime, shes a willing participant in the bloodshed that cost her father, her brother, and her betrothed lives, all of which Ned loved dearly and wouldnt easily forget. And then theres the question of honor. His own honor might force him to disown her because she dishonored the family that way, and caused that much trouble. Again...she got her dad and brother killed. He might still blame Rhaegar more, but knowing she let it all happen will leave a horrible taste in his mouth, and might push him to not even recognize the child himself, in that way, disowning her.
Which is also why the betrothal wouldnt happen. Because Ned himself wouldnt see the child as worthy simply by being legitamized. And with Cat there to help insitgate problems, they both wouldnt sell their first born daughter so cheaply. And again...i am speaking on their personal feelings on the matter, not necessarily the realms. I just dont see Ned, with Cat, agreeing that easily. The better arrangement would be Aegon to Sansa, or his daughter to Rob.
ASoIaF is a world of magic and destiny. I agree with much of your coda, Lyanna's son wedding Sansa, etc. However, like bad pennies, R'hllor is going to make those dragons show up somehow.
The first thing that would be different: Rhaeger would’ve launched a coup against his father. Before the Battle of the Trident he told Ser Barristan of the Kingsguard.
“There will be changes at court.”
Maybe it wouldn’t have been an overt coup. But he certainly would have forced Aerys to abdicate in some way and I imagine that can only end with someone, likely Aerys, dead. With that, I think Ned and Arryn would be placated. Rhaeger than gets peace.
Part 2 needed ASAP
Isn't "Robert's Rebellion" a retronym?
Why wouldn't Rheagar marry any of his other children to the Starks instead of the one child that is cousin to them? It would make more sense to bond Starks and Martells by marrying one of Elia's children instead.
That way you can write Jon x Arya's bond as a secret Balerion x Arya "forbidden romance" instead and maybe have it echo R+L. Plus it just makes more sense to marry Sansa to the heir apparent or Robb into royalty if what you fear is that the North might try to separate.
It was a retronym. It was only because they chose Robert to become king. In reality, Jon Arryn initiated the rebellion
In the newest show, I was very surprised by the appearance of Mormon missionaries on dragons.
Im not sure just because of the intro you have the right here even. In the history of asoiaf, they actually mention there were talks between Rhaegar and several lorldlings about Aerys and how unfit he was. Aerys himself was not big on his own son in his paranoia, but signs point to the fact that he was right to be paranoid.
So, if Robert's rebellion is dealt with, Rhaegar is turning to actually disposessing his father. The only reason they were unified was the war; without it Rhaegar isnt staying on his father's side.
I think, if you dont mind me saying, that's one critque I have for you: a lot of these what if scenarios boil down to turning everyone to group think. They all are happy and dont fight. Sometimes its substantiated. Sometimes it isnt.
It's possible the war ceases with Robert's death, but it's also possible we get a lover's quarrel between the two women. The last time two mothers fought over a chair only one could sit in spelt the end of the dragons. Elia and Lyanna's families could have gone at it hard to get their respective child on the throne. Ned still saw his family die for everything, and wouldnt have forgiven the Targaryans even if Rhaegar had nothing to do with it.
My point is, there would still be far more conflict than you let on.
Sorry how the heck were only two kings guard at the tower of joy mentioned? What about Osney Whent??
Oswell, but yeah, this video mixes up book canon with false info from the show.
Don’t forget that Rheagar and Jamie had a conversation that when he would come back from the war he would plan to uprise his father from all the fucked shit he did already
I like Daeron for Jon’s Targaryen name. In books, Jon is a fan of Daeron I and he would’ve been a good king like Daeron II.
Nice video, liked it alot
with rhaegar being king I don't think he would be a great king like daeron II, I see him being an above average king, and i think ned should be the hand to reduce tension between the north and the throne, i think this is one of the best what if´s that you made
We gonna need part 2 leading to the white walkers
Even if Robert dies, Tullys, Arryns, Starks and Baratheon will continue to fight. As long as Ned is alive the Rebellion will go on. Maybe you forgot. Ned Stark was first in the Kings Landing. He can take the throne himself if he wanted.
To be fair, Regar did end the Targaryen rule for the time with his death, but he did fulfill Egon’s dream of the prince that was promised for the song of ice and fire
I assume Ned would either die in battle still rebelling against Aerys or surrenders when he finds out about Lyanna's marriage to Rhaegar and because of Lyanna's marriage, Ned is allowed to join the Night's Watch where he goes on to eventually become Lord Commander. Benjen most likely rules Winterfell until Robb is old enough. The other Stark children are never born unless something happens to Robb and Benjen becomes the Lord of Winterfell and marries Catelyn.
20:10 my dude, yes they do have documents lol, Sam is the one telling Bran that Jon isn't a bastard. He transcribed the diary of the Maester who did the ceromony
That's from the show, not relevant.
To appease the north, if Rhaegar pulls back his men after he kills Robert and asks for a parlay with Ned, I think Ned would have talked with him. If Rhaegar had Lyanna write a letter to her brother first, Rhaegar could have given it to him then, as well as a pass for Arthur Dayne for Ned to see his sister.
With Lyanna's death, I could see Rhaegar fostering Jon in the north with house Stark to have Ned's help in deposing his father.
With the stories of dragons in the crypt, it would have been Jon with the "dragon dreams" rather than Daenerys.
I still see Jon finding the dire wolves, which would cement him as the "Prince Who Was Promised."
Once Jon has the dragon and the wolf, I believe that Rhaegar would have named Jon his heir to ensure survival against the winter. Sending his eldest son to the Doran Martell to wed his daughter would stop any succession issues and appease the Lady of Dorn for the insult to her daughter.
I still see Jon giving Arya Needle and a bow as he would have known that Valyrian women hunt and fight and would have seen nothing wrong with Arya doing the same.
Aegon (Jon) was named Aegon because rhaegar believes that his son born with the blood of both ice and fire is the prince that was promised. And he wanted him to have the name of the conqueror, who actually started all this to save the world from white walkers
I think after the trident rhegar would've had a sitdown with ned to discuss his sister and the truth. In which ned would speak to his sister (who in this case would survive) who would renounce the rebellion and tell the truth on what really happened. Which would cause the dornish to not be happy because rhegar was unfaithful and loved another.
Oh okay, this is a show version...of what if. I was about to say, there is a lot of information and controversy missing here lol.
What if the First Blackfyre Rebellion succeeded?
What if the assassination plot against Aegon the Conqueror and Visenya by the Dornish succeeded?
What if Daeron the Young Dragon succeeded in his conquest of Dorne?
On question 3- technically he did, according to source material- it just didn't last...
@@OcarinaSapphr- Yeah, I know. I meant if he didn't get assassinated, successfully put down the rebellions and somewhat pacified Dorne(as unlikely as that is).
My personal opinion is that this couold not be achieved without Daeron creating some sort of professional standing army, but that's definitely possible, if difficult.
Some important results might be that he has children, completely changing the Targaryen bloodline going forwad.
Dorne is absorbed not through marriage, but through fire and blood, which means they won't be so pro-Targaryen like they were in our timeline.
A professional standing army is very useful, and this could make the Targaryen dynasty more durable against future rebellions.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul I wouldnt say it would've been unlikely that Dorne could've been pacified. The problem was for all of Daerons skills in strategy his political skills and clearly knowledge on history was rather lacking, by putting a Tyrell in charge of Dorne he pretty much guaranteed they would rise up.
Don’t the second sons get summerhall? Probably rebuild it if they do, can’t remember
I really enjoyed this one!
I think that Rhaegars ofer to marridge Is that Aegon married Sanca and if Sanca married Jon I think that Aegon married Ariana Martel or Margery Tyrel or maybe some one from Dayne dynasty
I think we'd end up with a dance of the dragons type situation. Before roberts rebellion Aerys was paranoid about Rhaegar and some people on his small council had actually secured their positions by Aerys's opinions over Rhaegars in the years before the war. So all that stuff likely comes back to surface , probably worse depending on how resistant rhaegar is when it comes to punishing the rebel houses. One faction (interestingly possibly making the lannisters and starks allies ) might consolidate around Rhaegar and another around Aerys and his infant children (probably lead by a lord that hopes to become their reagent once rhaegar is set aside....maybe stannis ? ).
The insuing conflict probably forces the survivors of the losing side to flee to essos anyways (most likey viserys and Danaerys again).
Only thing is that Arya wouldn’t have had her story arc that lead to her going to bravos and training as a faceless man.
Which is a good thing. Arya's arc is not empowering or cool, it's a horrifying ordeal that breaks her mentally, leaving a shell of a person, a living weapon to be used and thrown away by the House of Black and White.
Jon(valerion) would be trained by Arthur dayne that would be interesting to see. Also Robb and Daeny would be a better match, I think, but Jon and sansa makes sense to help appease Ned
Wait, Liana could not have been possibly aware that the other Aegon was already dead when Jon Snow was born. So yes, it would still be possible for Jon to be named Aegon in this timeline.
Oddly enough i have a friend and his name is Rodney. His younger brother's name is Rodney. Both named after their father. And they are only like 2 year apart so idk what their mom was thinking. Same middle names too if i remember correctly.
LMAO that's wild
Since Elia can't have kids after the first 2 she knew her time as rhaegar's wife was limited. And he could always declare Jon as legitimate. It wasn't something that had never happened before. That's the initial cause of the backfire rebellion.
One thing that always trips me out was that once things were spinning out of control why didn't Lyanna go back and set things straight but i assume Raghar didn't let her leave
Whole thing could have been avoided if only she'd left a note
I have one question WHO married Cersei in this time line I think that Is interesting I personaly think the best marridge posibility in Tywins eyes Is Stannis and that Is, oh god ,somethik very interesting
Please comment
More likely, he tries for Oberyn again. A prince isn't as good as a KING, but still probably preferable to the younger brother of a recent traitorous rebel and whose house probably only narrowly avoided getting destroyed.
Failing that, likely a lesser lord from the Westerlands or possibly a Tyrell (Willas doesn't have a confirmed age, and would be notably younger than Cersei, but might still be workable). Again, Stannis probably wouldn't be a great match politically speaking, so there's limited utility in marrying her off to him.
Willas Tyrell maybe? Perhaps Edmure Tully or a wildcard option like Rodrik Greyjoy or Oberyn Martell.
Maybe she elopes with Jaime? With the Targeryans ruling she might be able to pull it off.
@@vyxzuw768nope, the Targs only get an incest pass from the Faith because they are royalty and because Maegor put them in their place. He who is sovereign makes the exception.