Thank you all so much for the overwhelming positive feedback! I am very glad you guys like the video. Thank you! And if any of you have suggestions as to what i can cover next: Feel free to let me know!
House Tyrell to the Gardeners of the Reach is like what House Cassel is to the Starks of the North. The Greyjoys are chosen by their people and the Tullys are at the very least, a lordly house. I agree with your list and you deserve a like :)
@@kevinneutzling8267 During the rebelion both the Blackwoods and Brackens followed Robert and during The war of the five kings they also both declared for Robb its not like they always do it.
I would def argue that the Martells should be significantly higher, simply by the fact that they resisted the Targaryans for a century, where even the pridefull ironborn had submitted
For me I would switch around and martell because the Martell's got everyone to leave their homes to hide in the desert to avoid the conquest and the vale still has to deal with the mountain clans after thousands of years
@@durrangodsgrief6503 I agree that the plot armor is bs but it still happened which would make me rate them higher than the people who can't wipe out the mountain clans after thousands of years, you would think it would have happened already since the clans aren't afraid to kidnap noble women which should lead to a huge hunt for the clans especially since it could be seen as a direct challenge to the vales honor because even a daughter of house arryn was kidnapped
I disagree, Martells only achieved so because of their geography - desert caves. As well as Targaryens were unwilling to systematically genocide all civilians in Dorne. Scorched earth + concentration camps is how British empire defeated the Boer guerilla warfare.
Their geography is their salvation but also their down fall. Because it's a barren desert, they can never be the most richest, populest, or abundant kingdom. WIthout all 3, a kingdom has no political power, thats why they rarely ever participate in westeros affairs.
Not engaging in blood shed is not a weakness. It’s being smart. The Tyrell’s just stayed out of drama. Never went after anyone’s stuff. Took whatever came their way with gratitude. Served loyally for centuries. Made sure the kingdom had food. And they did so gracefully and quietly. I’d say they deserved their house. They told the Gardeners not to fight Aegon. When Aegon came to High Garden, what did you expect them to do. Fight Aegon? Of course they bent the knee. Sometimes admitting defeat is a win.
Putting the Tyrells in charge of high garden was def a smart move on Aegon’s part. He bought this house’s loyalty completely & made their status rely on his legitimacy meaning they couldn’t as easily rebel & default to past claims of kingship as the florents or Redwynes might.
They have failed to even defend the iron islands as well that's why Theon is a ward of ned stark. I always considered them to be pretty weak compared to most other houses. Other than their fleet anyway.
@@majestic8054 then that means the Casterlys were weak not the Lannisters. The Lannisters have held Casterly Rock pretty firmly for a long time even negotiating with Aegon despite trying to meet him in battle.
@@kevinneutzling8267 I think it was left ambiguous, it's implied Lann the Clever either slept with all of Lord Casterly's daughters to have heirs through them or he scared everyone into thinking the place was haunted, another story claims that Lann let a whole den of lions into Casterly Rock which ate just about everyone. George writes the history of this world purposefully ambiguous.
Disagree. The Tyrells had served as loyal and effective stewards for ages, even going so far as to put the Gardener dynasty back together after it fell apart. They have personally ruled as regents many times and overlooked the main keeping of Highgarden.
The Tyrells never ruled as regents before the conquest, they served as Castellians. The Hightowers, Redwynes and Tarly were interlated power lords under house Gardner who each had a good claim. The Targeryons intentional installed the low nobility Tyrells purely to make the wealthiest and arguably most powerful kingdom waste time and effort in domestic squabbles against the Tyrells instead of uniting and effectively fighting off the Targeryons.
This is looking at the houses from the moment Aegon’s conquest was finished. At that point, the Baratheons just looked like a bunch of upjumped weirdos who were Aegon’s friends.
The Tullys are a literal liability in any war against the Lannister's at their castle and homebase is right next to the Westerland's. The Greyjoy's aren't the strongest house by demesne and constantly prevent the Iron Islands from advancing. The Tyrells, on the other hand despite not being kings, like the other two, earned their position due to good politics and great governance.
How does being a liability in a war against the lannisters impact their claim? A: the houses aren't supposed to fight in post conquest westeros.B: where else would the capital of the riverlands be? Harrenhal? It'll be a liability against the arryns. Seagard? Greyjoys. The twins? Starks. The riverlands is surrounded on all sides, there is no good capital location.
Riverrun is very defensible due to how it's constructed but there isn't really any other choice of capital in the Riverlands. Maybe Harrenhal could have been rebuilt at some point but it would never have happened when the memory of House Hoare was still recent and after that it was more work than it was worth.
@@mappingshaman5280 ok this is a bs claim while yes the riverlands are surrounded they can literally utilize the same defenses as their enemies I mean literally in the south is the black water river blocking them from the reach and stormlands, then we have the western hills where an appropriate fort at their end would stop attacks, the north doesnt do shit so dont need a fort their especially with the twins, and same for the mountains of the moon as for the western hills only rivelrnads hold back the Riverlands under a strong dynasty they could have matched the reach in power
The Targaryens. Basically got gifted dragons (would have never been successful without them) and yet still manage to screw everything up with infighting and dumb decisions, losing the throne they were basically gifted by being given a superpower.
Saying they wouldn't of been successful without dragons is not a controversial take, because no one else had either. There had been strong kingdoms before in Westeros, also strong alliances, and yet no one conquered the entire continent. I would say they were smart, even after the dragons went extinct, they held the kingdoms together not based out of fear, but because of their diplomacy and politics. If the Targaryens was as bad/ dumb as you make them out to be, they would have been overthrown soon after their dragons died.
@@rocksjoshuaI think the initial conquering of Westeros’s was almost entirely reliant on their dragons. But it’d agree with you that they were smart enough to hold on to power after the dragons had died
Its mostly because once the dragons were gone Jaeharys reign really made it so Targaryens ruling was the social and societal norm. Targaryens were really dumb as a whole but had social norms as a back bone@Leo-nc5hs
Yes targaryens had infighting and made some mistakes but calling a dynasty which lasted nearly 300 years( which is huge achievment especially when they had no dragons) ,,DuMb,, is kinda stupid bruh Btw GRRM is a great writer but he really annoys me when he says that house X lasted 7000 or 8000 years Its soo unrealistic, even in fantasy landscape, the logistics of it is just dumb Funny how he roast Tolkien : ,,what was Aragorn tax policy?,, While making up timelines like this ( for example house stark lasted somehow, without any infighting, no serious rebelions controling such a vast Kingdom way longer... than real world Roman empire Give me a F break Yes its a fantasy, but GRRM claims to be the one who has realistic spin on the fantasy genre..... Btw Tolkien finished his series GRRM won't
@@Edis12121 they had dragons for half that time and societal and social norms for the next 150. Until the mad king when you can rule your territory with impunity what would even be the point of rebelling. Wasn't worth the effort and targaryens ruling was just the norm.
The Lannister's are an Andal house that took the name from the First Men house when an Andal knight married the last female Lannister. Their connection to Lann the Clever is through the female line.
@@theboarandthelion By that logic, house Baratheon is also a first men house, as it is build upon house Durrandon. No of cause not. Just because you adopt another house's words or sigil, does not change it's origin. House Lannister as it is known at the time, is of Andal origin.
Yeah, the current Lannister line is technically House Lydden, patrilineally. The line of the rulers of Casterly Rock was taken matrilineally two times then, interestingly - and they're definitely more Andal now than First Men, as are most houses south of the Neck.
@@NielsMulvad your Baratheon example is a bad pick. According to you, this would make House Baratheon a Valyrian house, cause Orys was Valyrian… which simply doesn’t describe what House Baratheon is like. Also, by your example, the modern House Stark were actually founded by Bael the Bard, not Brandon the Builder.
During TWOTFK Catelyn saw Edmure bringing in a bunch of peasants into the walls of Riverrun. She knew in the event of a siege, these extra mouths to feed would decrease the time the castle could hold out for. When she asked him about it he said *_"These are my people and they were afraid"_* If that does not make House Tully the most worthy House I don't know what will
This actually makes him more unworthy than anything. Catelyn was 100% right. The peasants were not useful and were only extra mouths to feed. Edmure didn't want to make a hard decision and just did what made him feel good at the time without giving any thought to the big picture. Anyone can make decisions that make them feel good, but a good leader makes the tough decisions that keeps the kingdom and it's people running. "Heavy is the head that wears the crown". Sometimes a leader has to make tough decisions for the better of everything. Sometimes a leader has to look 2000 good men in the eye and tell them to go off and die so your army can get a strategic advantage. Sometimes a mother has to let her daughters be brutalized so as not to lose morale in the army. Sometimes a son has to tell a good smart woman who cares about the people to take a hike because he has to marry someone he never met for politics. Sometimes a doting father needs to tell his daughter that he is taking away her birthright and giving it to his second born pervert drunken son because that is what the kingdom wants. Sometimes the hand of the king needs to listen to a brothel owner, make peace with his enemies, support a terrible PoS's claim to the throne so he can have a chance at actually running the kingdom smoothly and peacefully.
On top of that. When Jaimie went to Riverrun and talked to the Blackfish. Brynden makes it a point to tell Jaimie that the Stark banners still fly in Riverrun. Even after Robb died, the trident still considered themselves subjects to Robb. The Tullys raised a kind lord in Edmure, a honorable warrior in Brynden, and a loving mother in Catelyn. They deserve it more than any other lord.
The Tully’s… they were never kings, never had the strength as an individual house to supplant dominance over Houses Blackwood, House Bracken or House Frey. Also the stupidity of their lords and lady’s in the time frame of the novels or the show does nothing but highlight the Houses unworthiness. Never making an attempt to inter marry the weakest River lands House (Most likely Tully) with the strongest (Everyone knows it’s the Frey’s) is single handedly why the Young Wolf ultimately lost his life during the war. If Hoster or his equally ignorant father had made attempts to unite houses Tully and Frey, all of Walder Frey’s haggling, stubbornness, tardiness and betrayal could have easily been avoided.
@@veritasinvicta8128 True, but the Tyrell’s did more with marriage alliances leading up to the events of the Novel. For instance Lady Olenna is a Rewyne, Maces wife Lady Alerie hails from house Hightower. Both Houses are probably the strongest houses in the Reach in terms of specific Military power and economic prosperity within the region. The current Tully’s… Edmure, Catelyn and Lisa’s Mother came from a house that’s now extinct. What did the Went’s have to offer house Tully in terms of security via that alliance and Marriage.
@@erikdgreenlund I was referring to the time of Aegon's conquest. By ASIOF the Tyrells are the second wealthiest house in Westeros as the Liege Lords of the Reach.
The Frey's were all disgusting pigs, they were tolerated to the point of them sneaking untold wealth into their house. The Tully's should've just tried to hammer them down but then there's also the fact that No one actually wanted the crossing because it was a freezing damp watery shithole that was rife with drama from every house in the regions lmao
Given that the Gardeners have just been wiped out and the Tyrells had no means to raise another army to fight the Targs and their dragons, what were they supposed to do? They saved an untold number of lives by bending the knee. Highgarden would have been another Harrenhal. The Tyrells are no less deserving than any of the other houses. In the long run, they seem to have served their kingdom the best. The only time things got bad in the Reach is when the Targs were at each other's throats, Dance of The Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellion.
@@durrangodsgrief6503 Yes but over the centuries during Targaryen rule, many women from the other great houses of the Reach married into house Tyrell. So through their mothers, they also have ancestry from these supposed superior houses. House Redwyne for example are the ancestors of the current tyrells through Olenna, and Hightower through Alerie. Therefore being the best claimants doesn't really matter all that much due to a combination of all of these advantageous marriages that bore progeny and being wardens of the south for so long. House Tully are major lords but not wardens, far poorer than house Tyrell, and cannot manage their vassals(*cough cough* Freys/Brackens/Blackwoods). Also as I mentioned in my original comment, house Tyrell were close to the Gardeners due to their ancestry. House Tully doesn't even have that. That is why I ranked them as the most undeserving.
So you deserve to rule not based on your own merits, but based on which womb you happen to be born from? Apart from the fact that is a messeed up morality, it would also mean the Targaryens are actually the least deserving to rule. Literally every other house mentioned here was already reasonably powerful while the Targaryens owned only a rock in Shipbreaker Bay. They had absolutely zero ancestry in Westeros, less than any other house. They just ruled because they burned anyone who stood against them.
@@miklu56 The Tyrells were dutiful stewards who did not usurp power, the Gardeners were literally wiped off the face of Westeros, so they did the smart thing and surrendered. Meanwhile, they've kept a good watch on the Reach. The Tully's on the other hand are just like the Tyrell's, except they pre-emptively surrendered, but unlike the Tyrells, they can't save the Riverlands from a pouty child. I suppose the geography is quite difficult to deal with having been sandwiched by the other houses, but the facts remain.
I’d say the tyrells and the starks were wise in that they saw three giant dragons cutting a swath through the continent and saying “Ight bro I can’t beat you, here’s my sword.”
The Tyrells probaly deserve their position the most xD. They have managed to become the strongest House in Westeros through their rulership skills alone even if they had the weakest blood/claim. They literaly used Highgarden's power and politics at 110%.
The Tyrell’s, they surrendered a vacant castle and got to rule of the most powerful kingdom in the seven kingdoms, The Tullys are close seconds but at least they were the first in the riverlands to aid Aegon, plus by picking them youavoid having to choose between the Brackens and Blackwoods and causing the eternal hatred of at least 1 of those houses.
Yeah this is my take as well, and the Tyrells even admit that a ton of other houses in the reach have just as much of a claim to Highgarden as they do, so like, at the outset they just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and just accept the Targaryen rule and bam. Now, they did kind of make up for it in subsequent years, iirc Highgarden was staunchly loyal to the crown thereafter but yeah
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle not really, Mace Tyrell screwed up at the most pivotal Targaryen rebellion, he basically used 60K men to siege 1 castle. Leo Longthorn was cool and really did help the Targaryens against the Blackfyres, and Lyonel Tyrell was the warden of Dorne for Daeron I but he was an ass and got himself killed off.
@@billychops1280Mace was for sure incompetent but I don't think he was doing that on purpose, I just meant that they were always ride or die for the Targaryens, regardless of ability or competency. That counts for something at the least 🤷
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle but they weren’t, at least with Mace they weren’t, Mace followed his kings commands (something no one can fault him for after the war regardless of who won) he also made sure to basically waste non of his troops, not even allowing Randyl Tarly to pursue the Brocken enemy after the battle of Ashford (which is smart because even if the Targs lose after the war his army is large enough on its own to fight off any Invasions into the reach by Robert or Ned or Jon Arryn). He basically just wasted time, either because he was too dumb to realize what was happening or because he was smart enough to know not to overapply his realm. And like I said this was the most pivotal moment in targ history. And the Tyrell’s failed them. The other most vital point were the Blackfyre rebellions, mostly the first 1 and yes Leo Longthorn was a staunch ally and vassal. But that’s basically the only other time the Tyrell’s had to step up. During the Dance, Lyonel Tyrell was a child and so his mom decided not to support either side, so the Tyrell’s escaped having to make a great decision by virtue of the lord being a babe. When Maegor usurped Aegon the Uncrowned the Tyrellls didn’t rise up, nor did they cut down super hard on the faith militant, they again just kinda stood there.
I agree that the besieging of Storm's End by the Tyrells was a ploy to make it look like they were supporting the Targaryens without having to commit to a war they maybe would not win.
Tully's did some crazy speedrun. From being the least significant house before Aegon conquest to Hoster Tully being the grandfather of king Bran and queen Sansa. Also Edmure Tully is still the paramount of the Trident.
I’m not even going to tag on House Tyrell that much. When some mfs riding on fucking DRAGONS show up and demand you hand over the fief. Yeah hell nah I ain’t fighting.
Most people here are very biased when it comes to House Greyjoy but they do have a long and proud history despite being vassals for a long time. When they chose Vickon Greyjoy as their new ruler, they aimed for peace with the greenland because Vickon in particular was very open minded and wise unlike the stubborn Harren the Black Balon kind of was right seizing the opportunity to declare independence after the Targaryens were gone but his plans were just beyond bad. Dalton "The Red Kraken" was only a tool for Rhaenyra but she and her council underestimated what Ironborn actually do once they gained independence. It was the most stupid offer on the blacks part ngl
Imo 1) Starks- Been there forever, well respected all around, good diplomacy and in general very competent at managing their kingdom 2) Martells- Keep control over a multi-ethnic nation with ease and competent enough even to resist the Targs when they still had dragons, extremely competent governors, constantly make smart political moves (outside of Arienne and the Sand Snakes who aren't part of the actual family anyway) 3/4) Arryn and Lannister- Both very competent families with interesting stories about their origins, Arryns have their identity as the first Andal Kingdom which is cool, Lannisters have grown in power as time has gone by and been very prosperous 5) Baratheon- Despite being a Bastard line of the Targaryens and being gifted their positions, they are also directly decended from the Storm kings through the female line created a great melded identity that ties them to the Targ crown during their reign but also to the original history of the land 6) Tully- Riverlands are just unlucky, it's the worst kingdom to rule outside of the Iron Islands, every single civil war just fucks you over and over and yet they still have a respectable reign even if it's kind of characterized by doing jack shit 7) Tyrells- Literal only claim is being descended from Garth Greenhand and there's like 10 other families that could do the same (imo the Fossoways, Florents, and the Hightowers would be much better choices) basically just awarded one of the best kingdoms for not being burned alive, generally middling rulers, supported the dumbest claim in the war of 5 kings because he was ramming their youngest son in the ass, actual shit house 8) The Targaryens- Don't know how you placed them at #1, they don't deserve to rule the Crownlands let alone the 7 Kingdoms, only even got in power because they had nukes, still couldn't conquer Dorne without marrying into it, half of their monarchs are insane in an incompetent way, 1/4 are good, and the last 1/4 are insane in a dangerous way constantly causing civil wars, fuck themselves out of dragons by civil warring too much, Habsburg levels of incest, don't even have any allies in Essos where they were originally from, pretend to follow the 7 but literally have no intention in following it outside of Baelor the Blessed, actual major villains in 99% of Westerosi history after their arrival 9) Greyjoy- Basically the Tyrells except with a kingdom that is worse than the Riverlands and instead of 1/2 of your Kings being good like the Targaryens they're all shit, Literally none of the Greyjoy family members even respect each other, Miserable line of morons for those miserable little shit covered rocks they live on
Please continue with this content! Love it and you are to say the least good at it, informqtive but not too boring, perfect amount of detail, and so on! Keep it up❤
The Martells should have a higher place. Despite the dragons burning their kingdom, they did not submit to the Targaryens, they even brought down a dragon. They joined on their own terms. That is badass.
The Tullys lol. Easily. Some people will argue the Tyrell’s but they actually have influence in their own kingdom. The Tullys are basically liege lords larping as great lords.
Their biggest weakness was always their tendency to faction. But consider this, the targs built the system that all the westerosi lords now follow. Through the conquest, they invented the game of thrones. I'd say that's pretty great, and makes them deserving of the "great house title" For a real world allegory, house carolingian ruled the kingdom of Francia, and for a time the Holy Roman Empire. Now, they lost it after a good couple generations, but their house is still considered possibly the greatest/most important early european Dynasty for what they did, with the power they had.
It is weird to say that house Targaryan is more deserving of their position then the Starks (as you put the at the top). One house was a minor house that fled their homelands, and was chilling on an island. While the Starks ruled and continued to rule wisely even after bending the knee. The Targaryen's legitimacy is build upon dragons, and when the last dragon died so did their claim to rule. Which is why they lost more and more power until the rebellion. Nah I would argue that the house with the most legitimate position, is house Stark.
They stayed in power for another 150 yrars after losing their dragons, so they didn't need them to rule. The reason they lose so much power is because Summerhault, wich is ironic because if they didn't tried to get more dragons they would've been far stronger than in the canon.
@darkphoenix2745 I would argue they absolutely needed the dragons to rule. Before the overgrow lizards died out the biggest threat to a Targaryen monarch was another Targaryen. Then the Dance of Dragons happen and suddenly your reliant on the loyalty of lords who have their own agendas and ambitions. Summerhall without a doubt weakened the Targaryen cause but the writing was on the wall a long time before that when noble houses backed Daemon Blackfyre to raise his banners in rebellion.
@@jonathonmcclellan4716 I mean, yeah, having dragons helped them to keep the other houses loyal, but that applies for any other house. The fact that each of the noble families have their own agendas and ambitions doesn't means the only way to control them is with dragons. Dragons are the most secure one tho.
1 Martell - Started with barren wasteland and through conquest builds a functional kingdom that successfully resists medieval nuclear weapons. 2 Stark - Starts with frozen wasteland through conquest builds it up a functional Kingdom. Is smart enough not to lose it fighting medieval nuclear weapons. 3 Tyrell - Starts as servants of a rich bountiful kingdom. Acquires it through political maneuvers and maintains it. 4 Arryn - Leads conquest of locals. Builds impregnable castle. Maintains functional kingdom. 5 Lannister - Uses cunning to take over a kingdom with impregnable fortress and infinite money cheat code. Maintains it mostly. 6 tied Greyjoy - Part of a culture that repeatedly makes massive gains then loses it all usually to hubris. Gets elected king of the pirates when no one cares enough to appoint a king of the pirates. 6 tied Baratheon - Trick local King into leaving magically impregnable castle. Kill him, steal his family, and maintain his kingdom 8 Tully - Teams up with local invader to overthrow your own oppressive tyrant king. Maintain a doormat kingdom for 300 years. 9 Targaryen - Luck into medieval, nuclear weapons and air supremacy. Take over most but not all of the area. Bicker and squabble yourselves into extinction in a meager 300 years.
Honorable Mentions Frey - Used basic economics to become more rich and arguably powerful than their liege lords. Hightower - Consistent behind the scenes player through most of history. Always seems close getting a cultural win in this game of Civ VI.
@@Jason-tn3ob The houses that have been around for thousands of years are purposefully shrouded in mystery, we don't even know their exact origins, what lands they ruled for most of their existence and if they've actually even existed for that long, what we dow know is that the Targaryens ruled seven Kingdoms for three hundred years which is a a long time especially if you compare it to irl dynasties and dragonstone before that
So, the Tyrells have fullfield their role efficientely and dutifully for centuries, earned the full trust of their kings and spared their people from being burned alive by refusing a loosing battle (a move that the north king would soon repeat withought a fight). Yet somehow, they are less deserving than the Targariens who were just lucky enough to have dragons, lost one of them during their conquests (along with his rider) and managed to loose it all because of infighting and inbreeding ? Sarcasm aside, I know this list is subjective and I've enjoyed watching it, but this is a hard disagree from me. House Tyrell is way too underated.
To me the Martells are the most deserving of their status. They weren’t gifted flying beasts that can destroy anything in sight, and in spite of that they fought of anyone who attempted to subject them through violence, and even took down a dragon. Could you imagine if the Martells controlled Dragons?
Tyrell. They were just lucky to survive the Field of Fire during Aegons Conquest and risked nothing because they were left behind in Highgarden by the Gardener King Mern IX and opened the Gates after the battle to the victorious Tagaryan. If any son of the Royal house had survived there rule over the reach in Aegons Name would be disputed
The Targaryens were a minor family in Valyria, then they were handed the biggest cheat code imaginable through nothing but sheer luck, which they promptly let slip away largely as a result of infighting and after their advantage was gone, they lost their titles and power entirely within a century and a half and were unable to do anything about it whatsoever until being gifted said cheat code yet again. Meanwhile other houses have maintained and advanced their standings for literal thousands and thousands and thousands of years without any such god given super power. The Targaryens shouldn't be anywhere near the top of this list, I genuinely think they belong in the bottom half of such a ranking.
arryns where of andal decent when a andali knight wi the kingship. kings of the vale where just a bunch of petty kings battling it out for supremacy before then. they haven’t ruled as long as the starks or lannisters. who actually trace their lines back to the first men.
According to the maesters the exact date is not sure. The Andal invasion took place between 6000 and 4000 years before the conquest. For the purpose of this video, I chose 4000 to calculate the length of rule of the respective houses.
I dunno I wouldn't have such an easy time placing house stark beneath house targaryan. It's a song of ice and fire. Ice comes first. The dragons really weren't up to ruling all 7 kingdoms for more than a few years while the wolves knew their place and did a pretty good job.
Except for the stewards to the Gardener Kings. At least the Tullys were lords. I can imagine the Hightowers and others weren't happy about the Tyrell ascension. In fact, Jon Connington supposedly has "Friends in the Reach". Many houses from The Reach were undoubtedly not content with the current situation of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.
I’d probably geive the Martells a bit of a boost on my own list, as the Rhoynish legacy of the house through Nymeria. Any group that was able to go toe to toe with Valyria at its height for 200+ years deserves a special nod, even if they did lose in the end.
I think there is even a case for the Starks being number 1. I mean they have been supporting the Night's Watch a lot and have a vast territory to defend, so they can't always bring heaps of troops to bare, even so, they manage to defend such a huge territory.
dorne didn't submit or get conquered, they joined of their own accord. they are the most deserving of their place. no other kingdom is ruled by a prince.
i might be the only one but i always looked at the kingdoms of westeros as seperate entities. Its just way more interesting this way. All the regions have such a distinct feel to them
"For most of us the Seven Kingdoms make most sense as a single entity" Really?? We see the Seven Kingdoms in a state of civil war throughout almost the entire story lol
I understand that from the POV of someone who watched Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon, the statement can feel a bit of weird. But if you've read the books, and know the full history of Targaryen rule over Westeros, it was mostly a united realm.
@@theboarandthelion I've read the books (twice) and only watched very little of GoT/HotD. I know what you mean about the Targ rule but we never get to see that first hand (even the Dunk & Egg stories show a state of rebellion)... And even during the 300 years of Targ reign there was almost always infighting between the houses, rebellions, religious civil wars, war with Dorne etc etc... Not to mention the 1000s of years before the Targs... Really the Seven Kingdoms were almost never united and the only time we get to see it being united is in the first few chapters/episodes before Robert dies
While this is true they are cowards. Literal snakes, this is something they seem to take pride in tho. Yes they were never conquered but they also never met they enemy in battle. They refused to and let Dorne burn instead. Yes it worked but not through valour but Cowardice.
Nah, House Martell is pretty mid. No Navy, no City and no notable individuals after the conquest. How tf House Manderly/Stark and House Targaryen build a city/roads for their Kingdoms but House Martell did nothing at all lol.
Dorne are weak as shit , using cat and mouse tactics and poison to win their battles , they are so weak that they inhabit the most useless most inhabitable land in Westeros !
@@svampen7782 Valor is the foolishness of young men that is manipulated by their betters to send them off to war. It's no means by which to measure a bloodline or a political strategy. Meeting the Targaryens in battle was suicide and they were wise to be cautious and conservative instead of attempting to prove their mettle against dragonfire.
@@AegonTargaryen300 true, Tyrels at least were loyal, mostly anyway. Baratheons are just anger issue house. They are to gone practikly so in the end, they don't matter.
@@AegonTargaryen300 tyrells were around during the gardners and literally helped the gardners build back up on multiple occasions. They were 10 times the house the tullys were
Wow I had known it but watching this video only really put it in my face that aegon targaryian raised 5 houses(if you count house targaryian) into king status and they still overthrow their house 300 years later
Hot take the Targaryens were not the most deserving they litterally took over the world not because they had skill but because luck had caused all of the people stronger than them to die. The starks however that’s a family that deserved its throne
1) House Tully- No experience at ruling, too many vassals who outclass them in troops, wealth, territory and prestige. Replace them with House Mallister. 2) House Tyrell- Same position as House Greyjoy but as stewards to House Gardener, they would have some experience managing affairs beyond their Domains. 3) House Greyjoy- While Pyke is not the wealthiest, largest, oldest or Prestigeous island they do have the strongest Castle. Also, they were chosen by their own people rather than being appointed by Aegon. While House Tyrell had trouble controlling their vassals in the early Targaryen reign, House Greyjoy maintained absolute control over its vassals.
@@DJayEJay Who else is there? They would never accept the Freys, The Brakens and Blackwoods are a hot potato that should not be handled. It is either the Mallisters or the Mootons.
To quote: “The Tyrells are dogs, they are my liege lords but they are dogs.” Would otherwise joke the correct flag for house Tyrell is a plain white field.
Was conquered by the Targaryens = Everyone else Was not conquered by the Targaryens = House Martell For that reason alone, Martell should be number 2 after the Targaryens
Idk which house is the less deserving, probs the Tully, but to me the most deserving are the Martell. They kept the independency of Dorne for almost 200 years. Also they are descendants of Queen Nymeria. Oh, do you remember that time a vassal of the Martells revolted and almost overthrew them? Yeah, me neither. They inspire respect and loyalty to their subjects. Their inheritance system is also just superior, granting their kingdom always has several valid heirs and 0 risk of extinction due to lack of male children. Their only sin is Prince Doran being a man of peace being caught in the biggest civil war since the Dance.
King Mern IX Gardener made a terrible decision. Why would you bring all of your heirs with you to a battle, and particularly one against dragons? "Sons and grandsons" implies multiple of each. So why wouldn't you leave at least one back in Highgarden? The Starks have the right of it, with their "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" mentality
I'm surprised you didn't put the Martells in top 3. Who could be more deserving of ruling their territory than the house that fought off the Targaryens successfully?
Least deserving: Tully, Tyrell I'd say. Tullys happened to have a great castle that sat in the right place at the right time. Tyrells sort of similarly just clung to the power of their liege lords long enough to see them wiped out. Schemers.
I would personally put dorne second, They pulled off the near impossible by killing a dragon, It is a feat of legendary proportion considering the period and how hopeless the other houses ended up being
Ill take a tyrell over a TULLY any day They cant even seem to stop shit in their OWN LANDS House Tyrel atleast knows how to pick & choose their battles while simultaneously feeding the realm
the Riverlands are also the most difficult kingdom to rule over, though. The Crown after Aegon's conquest and the Lannister/Frey after the War of 5 kings couldn't control and stabilise the region either
@niccologregorutti9309 Fr though, and I say all this not to offend, I just feel the only "REASON" aegon gave the Riverland to House Tully, was cause they "rebelled" against the iron born, though they only did this AFTER aegon came and AFTER he burnt House Hoare to a black charred crisp
I do believe that house Tully led the Riverlands in rebellion before the burning of Harrenhal. And because they led that rebellion, they were rewarded with the lordship of all the Riverlands
I like this video I just have trouble seeing the Greyjoys so high, especially over Baratheons. It was enlightening though, I didn’t expect to see the Tyrell’s so low but after the explanation it made sense.
I would argue that the Tyrells do at least somewhat deserve their position, because the winners of battles and wars write the history and gain the spoils.......The fact that they were not fighting against the Targaryens, obviously made the Targaryens look favourably upon them. The majority of the other houses were fighting against the Targaryens, so obviously they cannot make claims and sook about anything since they lost.
Interesting ranking mine would be: 1st Nymeros-Martell for ingenuity, diplomacy & resilience. 2nd Stark for being so resilient for so long, historically iconic. 3rd or 4th Arryn for ancient & cultural significance. 3rd or 4th Targaryen for mostly luck but also the feat of basically uniting Westeros. 5th Lannister oldish but too dependent on plot armour & few legendary accomplishments. 6th Tully for negotiating their way to such a high status from a middling at best rank. 7th Tyrell basically risen to power for symbolic reasons on the part of Aegon. 8th Baratheon piggy backed their way to power off of Aegon then copied durrandons. 9th Greyjoy nobody even cared enough to pick an iron lord, they just left it to the people there to sort themselves out
Tyrells are the one that suggest and support Gardener to fight with Aegon. They were cunning and played the game right. Also being stewards to lords and become the one of strongest region shows that they deserved their place.
The greyjoys. The tyrells and tullys may have less claim to their thrones than the greyjoys to theirs, but at least they weren't constantly starting shit like the greyjoys.
The Targaryens were on easy mode with their dragons. They cheated their way into power when other kings did so with armies of men. And even then they managed to lose that position by wasting their dragons while infighting. They deserve the last spot, not the first.
Martell are second in this list, as they are the only house to not be conquered by Aegon (while killing a dragon) and kept their independence for 150 years, finally deciding themselves to join the (at the time) Six Kingdoms without a war
Its about legitimacy, every single house in the 7 Kingdoms has legitimacy aside from 2; Tullys and Tyrells. House Tyrell: Yes they were stewards but they were still raised by Aegon I to counter the influence of the Hightowers who were the natural successors to the Gardaners. Tyrells arent respected, every house claims direct descent from the mythical ruler Garth Greenhand. The powerful houses of the Reach, Tarlys, Rowans, Hightowers, Oakhearts, Florents, Redwyns etc all have direct ties to the Gardeners and were the principle bannermen of the old kings. Tyrells were literally just stewards, akin to minor lords. Tyrells are smart though, they managed to have so many children that they married them all into the noble houses. Tyrells are tied to every house in the reach, like vines they grow crazy fast covering the entire reach. They also have the holdings of House Gardaner like Highgarden, being wealthy helps. the only ones they cant seem to get a hold on are the Hightowers who still control vast lands and massive influence in the reach. Thats why they never challenged them dureing the Dance. House Tully: The total opposite, they are a poor house with poor land. Mallisters, Mootons, Brackens, Blackwoods, Freys, whoever the fuck is holding harrenhal all have more wealth and power than their leige lord. Tullys are honestly a fucking joke.
Hey, really nice content dude! You may not have all the lore down quite as tight as some other channels who are REALLY deep in the weeds, but your presentation, structuring, narration, and editing were all really nice! Subscribed! Hope you get to 1000 subs soon, man! Keep up the nice work. I’m gonna go watch some more of your videos!
I think its fairly stupid to just discount that House Baratheon is essentially a House Durrandon expy. They took Durrandon's lands, castle, sigil, words, and daughter, and just slapped Baratheon onto it. If you are going to give Lannister credit for Lann the Clever, you should take the Storm King lineage into consideration for Baratheon. and if you do, having them this low is a joke. Also, Tully over Tyrell is ridiculous. The Riverlands is the 1900s France of Westeros, just getting their asses kicked every other minute by anyone with more than 7 guys. The Tyrells, while newly appointed, were still Stewards of Highgarden for countless ages, and the Reach was always a powerful kingdom.
If Orys would have taken the Durrandon name, they would probably have tied with House Stark. As it stands now: House Baratheon has only existed for 300 years. The reason they are at the top of the lords paramount is because of their Durrandon history however.
Robert was called Robert Baratheon, not Robert Durrandon. For all intents and purposes, House Baratheon is a new House, and GRRM seems to agree, as he wrote the Baratheons were the youngest of the Great Houses. So, no. Baratheons may have Durrandon blood... but they are not Durrandons.
@@KS-xk2so Hey, don't tell me. Tell GRRM who wrote, and I quote: 'The youngest of the Great Houses, born during the Wars of Conquest. Its founder, Orys Baratheon, was rumored to be Aegon the Dragon's bastard brother'. GRRM considers House Baratheon to be younger than House Arryn, even though the Durrandons were kings thousands of years before the Andals came.
3 got their seats for doing nothing (Tyrell, Greyjoy, Tully) 1 got its seat for being a royal bastard's descendants (Baratheon) Who knows who deserved their position most of all, but I certainly know which ones deserved it _least_ of all.
Can't disagree with the list! What I disagree is about the words chosen on House Tyrell. They were always close to power in the Reach and administered Highgarden for centuries or milliennias. It was implied they were the power behind the oaken throne on the time of weak Gardener kings and once a Tyrell restored the royal power to the Gardeners, defeating Peake and Manderly pretenders. In other words, they have been ruling the country alongside the Gardeners, something a few other great houses haven't done it before Aegon the Conqueror elevated them. Perhaps they could be ahead of the Tullies. I also would put the Martells higher up. While the Starks or Lannister lost their crowns, the Martells never lost theirs, not even to the Targaryens.
Tully last for sure 😂 im glad to see that everyone in the comments agrees. Tyrrells did a way better job, keeping the reach the most prosperous region and preventing them from splitting in small pieces. And they do have Royal ancestry Gardner blood.
Great Video, although I personally think House Tully is least deserving of its title. I honestly don't like House Tully in general. I kinda of see their members as prideful insecure idiots. They got their position through pure luck. They look down upon House Frey and call them "Up jumped toll collectors". In reality, I think they are just jealous of them because house Frey EARNED its position as one of the most important houses in the Riverlands instead of being granted it through pure chance. The Tully's have less land than the Blackwoods, a smaller castle than house Mallister, a weaker army than house Bracken, and less money than house Frey. They are UP JUMPED Vassals, Nothing more.
I just stumbled across your Channel on my recommended videos I Love A Song of Ice and Fire in Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon I just finished watching your video very knowledgeable and very informative I particularly enjoyed your precise dating of how long the different houses ruled over their perspective regions I've always been a little confused about that how long they ruled their prospective regions how are you able to learn this information if you don't mind my asking I've studied every piece of lore I could find and I've never come across anything indicating specifically how long they've ruled their respective region❤
Firstly, thank you very much for your kind words! For the information i've mainly used The World of Ice and Fire. But even the dates there are not set in stone. The Andal invasion for example could have been 6000 years ago, but also 4000 years ago according to the maesters. For the purpose of this video, I chose 4000 and went with it.
@theboarandthelion you're welcome you put a lot of depth and care and thought into this and I respect and appreciate that it's refreshing to meet devoted fans to A Song of Ice and Fire as much as I am I do vividly recall when I first start watching Game of Thrones about the andal Invaders I can see why you would choose 4000 years instead of 6,000 from my perspective 4,000 years makes sense because of the Citadel and the Maesters so I think that was a great example to use I do enjoy thorough analysis of the world of Song of Ice and Fire and its Mysteries and I'm definitely going to keep watching your videos you're doing a good job making them so keep up the good work!😁
Really underrating House Martell here. The only house not to be allowed their title as a table scrap by the Targaryens are almost a tie with the Greyjoys? The Greyjoys were just one island among many before someone else gave them their chance. Arryn and Lannister were permitted to have their position by another house; the Martells forged theirs on their own. Should matter a lot more than mere longevity.
Not to mention, the Dornish were never conquered by the Dragons. In fact they slayed one of the queens and her dragon. Only came into the fold through marriage which is why they are allowed to retain the titles of Prince and Princesses of Dorne.
@@SteezLouise the dornish have the largest plot armor in westeros the idea that a desert kingdom starved of major resources could have those resources bathed in flame for years and not have an economic collapse is dumb
While you make a good point about the Tyrell's deserving it the least look what they made of their ward of the south. It's one that rivals the Lannister's in wealth and power. The Tully's have a comparable region, and yet they are pushovers for all the others during the War of Five Kings.
You're absolutely right. The results of this list would be vastly different if I measured at 298 AC. That may be a fun video to do sometime in the future.
Have to disagree. House Stark is number 1. Ruled for thousands of years. Descended from the first men. Responsible for some of the greatest buildings on the continent and the wall. Have previously fought and defeated the white walkers. Keep the kingdoms safe from wildling invasion. Largest area of any kingdom making it harder to rule. With the exception of house Bolton they have the most loyal bannermen. Did it all without a single dragon.
It is easy to control your vasals when you have 10 time more soldiers than they have. House Tully rulled vassals that are more powerful than they are. Respect to Tullies.
The Targaryens deserved power the least. They had dragons, they had the Seven Kingdoms and all they had to do was not fuck things up. Wouldn't you know, they fucked it up losing both the dragons and the Seven Kingdoms in the process. 😂 Also this list has gone from who deserves power the least to who ruled the longest. Dude unironically put the Ironborn above the Chad Baratheons
Martel should be second if you're including them. They held out against the conquest where no other could as well as a later invasion of the other kingdoms, only joined through marriage over 2 centuries AC. They deserve their position more than Starks, Arryns or Lannisters because they were actually strong enough to hold it, who cares how long the others ruled before they lost
The Starks and Lannister withstood hundreds of years of war with the Andals. The Arryn's were the only Andal house to succesfully claim an entire kingdom during the invasion, after multiple years of war. The Martells needed a foreign queen landing on their shores to even rule Dorne. I get the point about how they defended themselves during Aegon's Conquest, but Westerosi history is more than just the conquest.
I'd say House Tyrell, they were literally just stewards and the only reason they were made lord paramount was because somehow none of House Gardener was left in Highgarden and non survived battle, and thus it was they who surrendered castle. House Tully might be close second but they already had Riverrun and were lords, just not kings, plus fought for Aegon against House Hoare, so actually did work for it.
They had ran the Reach countless times as regents and literally put House Gardener together again and re-united the Reach after House Gardener fell apart. Further it’s heavily implied that the reason House Gardener didn’t survive, leaving the Tyrell’s in charge of High Garden was because the Tyrell’s had plotted it, convincing the Gardeners to meet Aegon on the battlefield knowing the Gardeners would lose.
@@kidgforce1 if they did they would have the best uncontested claim and be in the same boat as Lannisters and Baratheons George is just bad at writing his histories the gardener extinction makes no sense
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Thank you all so much for the overwhelming positive feedback! I am very glad you guys like the video. Thank you! And if any of you have suggestions as to what i can cover next: Feel free to let me know!
House Tyrell to the Gardeners of the Reach is like what House Cassel is to the Starks of the North. The Greyjoys are chosen by their people and the Tullys are at the very least, a lordly house. I agree with your list and you deserve a like :)
i think in second place should be dorne: they are the only ones that repelled the Targaryens - and they did it twice
You're doing such a great job here
The Tullys can’t even prevent two of their most important bannermen from immediately declaring war on each other every time there’s a conflict.
Which ones are you talking about, to clarify?
@@kjsdpgijn Blackwoods and the Brackens. As soon as any conflict breaks out they try to get on opposite sides just to kill each other.
@@kevinneutzling8267 Pretty based
and they cant control the freys
@@kevinneutzling8267 During the rebelion both the Blackwoods and Brackens followed Robert and during The war of the five kings they also both declared for Robb its not like they always do it.
I would def argue that the Martells should be significantly higher, simply by the fact that they resisted the Targaryans for a century, where even the pridefull ironborn had submitted
For me I would switch around and martell because the Martell's got everyone to leave their homes to hide in the desert to avoid the conquest and the vale still has to deal with the mountain clans after thousands of years
@@xandersegovia4120dorne plot armor is bold
@@durrangodsgrief6503 I agree that the plot armor is bs but it still happened which would make me rate them higher than the people who can't wipe out the mountain clans after thousands of years, you would think it would have happened already since the clans aren't afraid to kidnap noble women which should lead to a huge hunt for the clans especially since it could be seen as a direct challenge to the vales honor because even a daughter of house arryn was kidnapped
I disagree, Martells only achieved so because of their geography - desert caves. As well as Targaryens were unwilling to systematically genocide all civilians in Dorne. Scorched earth + concentration camps is how British empire defeated the Boer guerilla warfare.
Their geography is their salvation but also their down fall. Because it's a barren desert, they can never be the most richest, populest, or abundant kingdom. WIthout all 3, a kingdom has no political power, thats why they rarely ever participate in westeros affairs.
Not engaging in blood shed is not a weakness. It’s being smart. The Tyrell’s just stayed out of drama. Never went after anyone’s stuff. Took whatever came their way with gratitude. Served loyally for centuries. Made sure the kingdom had food. And they did so gracefully and quietly. I’d say they deserved their house.
They told the Gardeners not to fight Aegon. When Aegon came to High Garden, what did you expect them to do. Fight Aegon? Of course they bent the knee. Sometimes admitting defeat is a win.
Being politically savvy and protecting your house's interest in the long run is a bigger win than military victory
Putting the Tyrells in charge of high garden was def a smart move on Aegon’s part. He bought this house’s loyalty completely & made their status rely on his legitimacy meaning they couldn’t as easily rebel & default to past claims of kingship as the florents or Redwynes might.
The greyjoys: only ascended after the fall of the previous king and fail constantly to invade anywhere else
God the grejoys are awful, so prideful but dull and ineffective.
Also they live on pillaging alone and therefore do not deserve to even exist
Balon the Stupid @@BoHorn
@@BoHorn Their own family members don't respect each other lmao
They have failed to even defend the iron islands as well that's why Theon is a ward of ned stark. I always considered them to be pretty weak compared to most other houses. Other than their fleet anyway.
I’m currently at 0:01 of the video and the answer is already the Greyjoys
They’re not a great house don’t know why they’re in the video
You sure know how to get a group going.
@@ogBohicalord Paramounts are great houses and greyjoy is a lord paramount house
The Lannisters literally tricked their way into getting a castle💀
Not really, they still have casterly blood. Like baratheons still have durran blood
Sounds like everyone of my bannerlord playthroughs
Yeah, but the Tyrells got Highgarden and the Reach by opening someone else's gates to an invading army 😂
@@majestic8054 then that means the Casterlys were weak not the Lannisters. The Lannisters have held Casterly Rock pretty firmly for a long time even negotiating with Aegon despite trying to meet him in battle.
@@kevinneutzling8267 I think it was left ambiguous, it's implied Lann the Clever either slept with all of Lord Casterly's daughters to have heirs through them or he scared everyone into thinking the place was haunted, another story claims that Lann let a whole den of lions into Casterly Rock which ate just about everyone. George writes the history of this world purposefully ambiguous.
Disagree.
The Tyrells had served as loyal and effective stewards for ages, even going so far as to put the Gardener dynasty back together after it fell apart. They have personally ruled as regents many times and overlooked the main keeping of Highgarden.
I strongly agree with you. Well said!
Stewards are always overlooked when in reality they do the most work
The Tyrells never ruled as regents before the conquest, they served as Castellians. The Hightowers, Redwynes and Tarly were interlated power lords under house Gardner who each had a good claim. The Targeryons intentional installed the low nobility Tyrells purely to make the wealthiest and arguably most powerful kingdom waste time and effort in domestic squabbles against the Tyrells instead of uniting and effectively fighting off the Targeryons.
@@lazyidiotofthemonth I’m pretty sure a Tyrell ruled as regent before the conquest but I won’t argue about it
@@lazyidiotofthemonth who do you think was ruling Highgarden while house Peak and Manderly destroyed the gardeners
Baratheon under Greyjoy? Robert has entered the chat, and Pyke.
Lmao very underrated comment
At the start of the video he says he doesn't counts post-Robert's rebellion achievedments tho.
@@darkphoenix2745 must have missed that thanks
This is looking at the houses from the moment Aegon’s conquest was finished. At that point, the Baratheons just looked like a bunch of upjumped weirdos who were Aegon’s friends.
well its true
the bartheons were just...given the land by Aegon not at all did they really deserve or have claim to it
The Tullys are a literal liability in any war against the Lannister's at their castle and homebase is right next to the Westerland's. The Greyjoy's aren't the strongest house by demesne and constantly prevent the Iron Islands from advancing. The Tyrells, on the other hand despite not being kings, like the other two, earned their position due to good politics and great governance.
How does being a liability in a war against the lannisters impact their claim? A: the houses aren't supposed to fight in post conquest westeros.B: where else would the capital of the riverlands be? Harrenhal? It'll be a liability against the arryns. Seagard? Greyjoys. The twins? Starks. The riverlands is surrounded on all sides, there is no good capital location.
Riverrun is very defensible due to how it's constructed but there isn't really any other choice of capital in the Riverlands. Maybe Harrenhal could have been rebuilt at some point but it would never have happened when the memory of House Hoare was still recent and after that it was more work than it was worth.
The only tullys that were liabilities were hosted tullys children, with each of them making mistakes that cost thousands of lives
@@mappingshaman5280 ok this is a bs claim while yes the riverlands are surrounded they can literally utilize the same defenses as their enemies I mean literally in the south is the black water river blocking them from the reach and stormlands, then we have the western hills where an appropriate fort at their end would stop attacks, the north doesnt do shit so dont need a fort their especially with the twins, and same for the mountains of the moon as for the western hills only rivelrnads hold back the Riverlands under a strong dynasty they could have matched the reach in power
@@Dobbinator817 And even then Edmure Tully wasn't a liability in the war, he defeated Tywin ffs.
It was Robb who didn't tell him his plan.
The Targaryens. Basically got gifted dragons (would have never been successful without them) and yet still manage to screw everything up with infighting and dumb decisions, losing the throne they were basically gifted by being given a superpower.
Saying they wouldn't of been successful without dragons is not a controversial take, because no one else had either. There had been strong kingdoms before in Westeros, also strong alliances, and yet no one conquered the entire continent. I would say they were smart, even after the dragons went extinct, they held the kingdoms together not based out of fear, but because of their diplomacy and politics. If the Targaryens was as bad/ dumb as you make them out to be, they would have been overthrown soon after their dragons died.
@@rocksjoshuaI think the initial conquering of Westeros’s was almost entirely reliant on their dragons. But it’d agree with you that they were smart enough to hold on to power after the dragons had died
Its mostly because once the dragons were gone Jaeharys reign really made it so Targaryens ruling was the social and societal norm. Targaryens were really dumb as a whole but had social norms as a back bone@Leo-nc5hs
Yes targaryens had infighting and made some mistakes but calling a dynasty which lasted nearly 300 years( which is huge achievment especially when they had no dragons) ,,DuMb,, is kinda stupid bruh
Btw GRRM is a great writer but he really annoys me when he says that house X lasted 7000 or 8000 years
Its soo unrealistic, even in fantasy landscape, the logistics of it is just dumb
Funny how he roast Tolkien : ,,what was Aragorn tax policy?,,
While making up timelines like this ( for example house stark lasted somehow, without any infighting, no serious rebelions controling such a vast Kingdom way longer... than real world Roman empire
Give me a F break
Yes its a fantasy, but GRRM claims to be the one who has realistic spin on the fantasy genre.....
Btw Tolkien finished his series GRRM won't
@@Edis12121 they had dragons for half that time and societal and social norms for the next 150. Until the mad king when you can rule your territory with impunity what would even be the point of rebelling. Wasn't worth the effort and targaryens ruling was just the norm.
The Lannister's are an Andal house that took the name from the First Men house when an Andal knight married the last female Lannister. Their connection to Lann the Clever is through the female line.
Yes. So the Lannisters are a First men house who have had some help along the line from an Andal lord (ser Joffrey Lydden)
@@theboarandthelion By that logic, house Baratheon is also a first men house, as it is build upon house Durrandon. No of cause not. Just because you adopt another house's words or sigil, does not change it's origin. House Lannister as it is known at the time, is of Andal origin.
Yeah, the current Lannister line is technically House Lydden, patrilineally. The line of the rulers of Casterly Rock was taken matrilineally two times then, interestingly - and they're definitely more Andal now than First Men, as are most houses south of the Neck.
I mean thats not uncommon for some Houses.
@@NielsMulvad your Baratheon example is a bad pick. According to you, this would make House Baratheon a Valyrian house, cause Orys was Valyrian… which simply doesn’t describe what House Baratheon is like.
Also, by your example, the modern House Stark were actually founded by Bael the Bard, not Brandon the Builder.
During TWOTFK Catelyn saw Edmure bringing in a bunch of peasants into the walls of Riverrun. She knew in the event of a siege, these extra mouths to feed would decrease the time the castle could hold out for. When she asked him about it he said *_"These are my people and they were afraid"_*
If that does not make House Tully the most worthy House I don't know what will
Edmure definitely has a good heart.
Don't apply modern values to a system of power set in a medival fantasy world.
@@E-Brightvoid Still annoyed at Robb and the others blaming Edmure for not following the plan they didn't tell him about.
This actually makes him more unworthy than anything. Catelyn was 100% right. The peasants were not useful and were only extra mouths to feed. Edmure didn't want to make a hard decision and just did what made him feel good at the time without giving any thought to the big picture.
Anyone can make decisions that make them feel good, but a good leader makes the tough decisions that keeps the kingdom and it's people running. "Heavy is the head that wears the crown". Sometimes a leader has to make tough decisions for the better of everything. Sometimes a leader has to look 2000 good men in the eye and tell them to go off and die so your army can get a strategic advantage. Sometimes a mother has to let her daughters be brutalized so as not to lose morale in the army. Sometimes a son has to tell a good smart woman who cares about the people to take a hike because he has to marry someone he never met for politics. Sometimes a doting father needs to tell his daughter that he is taking away her birthright and giving it to his second born pervert drunken son because that is what the kingdom wants. Sometimes the hand of the king needs to listen to a brothel owner, make peace with his enemies, support a terrible PoS's claim to the throne so he can have a chance at actually running the kingdom smoothly and peacefully.
On top of that. When Jaimie went to Riverrun and talked to the Blackfish. Brynden makes it a point to tell Jaimie that the Stark banners still fly in Riverrun. Even after Robb died, the trident still considered themselves subjects to Robb.
The Tullys raised a kind lord in Edmure, a honorable warrior in Brynden, and a loving mother in Catelyn. They deserve it more than any other lord.
The Tully’s… they were never kings, never had the strength as an individual house to supplant dominance over Houses Blackwood, House Bracken or House Frey. Also the stupidity of their lords and lady’s in the time frame of the novels or the show does nothing but highlight the Houses unworthiness.
Never making an attempt to inter marry the weakest River lands House (Most likely Tully) with the strongest (Everyone knows it’s the Frey’s) is single handedly why the Young Wolf ultimately lost his life during the war. If Hoster or his equally ignorant father had made attempts to unite houses Tully and Frey, all of Walder Frey’s haggling, stubbornness, tardiness and betrayal could have easily been avoided.
Walders Frey Generation of Frey's are largely a**holes the perfect opportunity problably would have been when Sabitha Vypern was in charge.
At least the Tullys were lords. Tyrells were stewards.
@@veritasinvicta8128 True, but the Tyrell’s did more with marriage alliances leading up to the events of the Novel. For instance Lady Olenna is a Rewyne, Maces wife Lady Alerie hails from house Hightower. Both Houses are probably the strongest houses in the Reach in terms of specific Military power and economic prosperity within the region. The current Tully’s… Edmure, Catelyn and Lisa’s Mother came from a house that’s now extinct. What did the Went’s have to offer house Tully in terms of security via that alliance and Marriage.
@@erikdgreenlund I was referring to the time of Aegon's conquest. By ASIOF the Tyrells are the second wealthiest house in Westeros as the Liege Lords of the Reach.
The Frey's were all disgusting pigs, they were tolerated to the point of them sneaking untold wealth into their house. The Tully's should've just tried to hammer them down but then there's also the fact that No one actually wanted the crossing because it was a freezing damp watery shithole that was rife with drama from every house in the regions lmao
Given that the Gardeners have just been wiped out and the Tyrells had no means to raise another army to fight the Targs and their dragons, what were they supposed to do? They saved an untold number of lives by bending the knee. Highgarden would have been another Harrenhal. The Tyrells are no less deserving than any of the other houses. In the long run, they seem to have served their kingdom the best. The only time things got bad in the Reach is when the Targs were at each other's throats, Dance of The Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellion.
Easy, House Tully. Tyrells have matrilineal gardener ancestry at least and were known as skilled stewards. So many riverland houses trump the tullys.
I agree with you that they not among the strongest riverlords. But chance would have it they were during the conquest.
same thing for the Tyrells and many houses are related to the gardeners the Tyrells are literally and self admittedly not the best claimants
@@durrangodsgrief6503 Yes but over the centuries during Targaryen rule, many women from the other great houses of the Reach married into house Tyrell. So through their mothers, they also have ancestry from these supposed superior houses. House Redwyne for example are the ancestors of the current tyrells through Olenna, and Hightower through Alerie. Therefore being the best claimants doesn't really matter all that much due to a combination of all of these advantageous marriages that bore progeny and being wardens of the south for so long. House Tully are major lords but not wardens, far poorer than house Tyrell, and cannot manage their vassals(*cough cough* Freys/Brackens/Blackwoods).
Also as I mentioned in my original comment, house Tyrell were close to the Gardeners due to their ancestry. House Tully doesn't even have that. That is why I ranked them as the most undeserving.
So you deserve to rule not based on your own merits, but based on which womb you happen to be born from?
Apart from the fact that is a messeed up morality, it would also mean the Targaryens are actually the least deserving to rule. Literally every other house mentioned here was already reasonably powerful while the Targaryens owned only a rock in Shipbreaker Bay. They had absolutely zero ancestry in Westeros, less than any other house. They just ruled because they burned anyone who stood against them.
Tully earned in with their might
It has to be the Tullys. They have their position simply for being the first to declare for Aegon. Many better housed in the Riverlands.
Just like Tyrells, they were bare serving people before they gave castle to Aegon
@@miklu56Tyrrells were way more influential though. There were several times when Tyrrells decided who will rule the Reach.
@@argo9750 no only once and that was after a civil war their have been regencies but the Tyrells were stewards not lords
@@miklu56 The Tyrells were dutiful stewards who did not usurp power, the Gardeners were literally wiped off the face of Westeros, so they did the smart thing and surrendered. Meanwhile, they've kept a good watch on the Reach. The Tully's on the other hand are just like the Tyrell's, except they pre-emptively surrendered, but unlike the Tyrells, they can't save the Riverlands from a pouty child. I suppose the geography is quite difficult to deal with having been sandwiched by the other houses, but the facts remain.
Like who? Blackwood and Bracken can't rule bc of each other. Nobody liked the Freys. Mallisters are too focused on the Greyjoys
I’d say the tyrells and the starks were wise in that they saw three giant dragons cutting a swath through the continent and saying “Ight bro I can’t beat you, here’s my sword.”
There is a difference Starks were kings for thousands of years and tyrells opened the gate of someone else's empty castle
The Tyrells probaly deserve their position the most xD. They have managed to become the strongest House in Westeros through their rulership skills alone even if they had the weakest blood/claim. They literaly used Highgarden's power and politics at 110%.
no they have a rocky standing at best with their lords
Nah, the Baratheons have the weakest claim. Their founder was a literal bastard, lol.
The Tyrell’s, they surrendered a vacant castle and got to rule of the most powerful kingdom in the seven kingdoms, The Tullys are close seconds but at least they were the first in the riverlands to aid Aegon, plus by picking them youavoid having to choose between the Brackens and Blackwoods and causing the eternal hatred of at least 1 of those houses.
Yeah this is my take as well, and the Tyrells even admit that a ton of other houses in the reach have just as much of a claim to Highgarden as they do, so like, at the outset they just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and just accept the Targaryen rule and bam. Now, they did kind of make up for it in subsequent years, iirc Highgarden was staunchly loyal to the crown thereafter but yeah
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle not really, Mace Tyrell screwed up at the most pivotal Targaryen rebellion, he basically used 60K men to siege 1 castle. Leo Longthorn was cool and really did help the Targaryens against the Blackfyres, and Lyonel Tyrell was the warden of Dorne for Daeron I but he was an ass and got himself killed off.
@@billychops1280Mace was for sure incompetent but I don't think he was doing that on purpose, I just meant that they were always ride or die for the Targaryens, regardless of ability or competency. That counts for something at the least 🤷
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle but they weren’t, at least with Mace they weren’t, Mace followed his kings commands (something no one can fault him for after the war regardless of who won) he also made sure to basically waste non of his troops, not even allowing Randyl Tarly to pursue the Brocken enemy after the battle of Ashford (which is smart because even if the Targs lose after the war his army is large enough on its own to fight off any Invasions into the reach by Robert or Ned or Jon Arryn). He basically just wasted time, either because he was too dumb to realize what was happening or because he was smart enough to know not to overapply his realm. And like I said this was the most pivotal moment in targ history. And the Tyrell’s failed them. The other most vital point were the Blackfyre rebellions, mostly the first 1 and yes Leo Longthorn was a staunch ally and vassal. But that’s basically the only other time the Tyrell’s had to step up. During the Dance, Lyonel Tyrell was a child and so his mom decided not to support either side, so the Tyrell’s escaped having to make a great decision by virtue of the lord being a babe. When Maegor usurped Aegon the Uncrowned the Tyrellls didn’t rise up, nor did they cut down super hard on the faith militant, they again just kinda stood there.
I agree that the besieging of Storm's End by the Tyrells was a ploy to make it look like they were supporting the Targaryens without having to commit to a war they maybe would not win.
Tully's did some crazy speedrun. From being the least significant house before Aegon conquest to Hoster Tully being the grandfather of king Bran and queen Sansa. Also Edmure Tully is still the paramount of the Trident.
I’m not even going to tag on House Tyrell that much.
When some mfs riding on fucking DRAGONS show up and demand you hand over the fief.
Yeah hell nah I ain’t fighting.
Most people here are very biased when it comes to House Greyjoy but they do have a long and proud history despite being vassals for a long time.
When they chose Vickon Greyjoy as their new ruler, they aimed for peace with the greenland because Vickon in particular was very open minded and wise unlike the stubborn Harren the Black
Balon kind of was right seizing the opportunity to declare independence after the Targaryens were gone but his plans were just beyond bad.
Dalton "The Red Kraken" was only a tool for Rhaenyra but she and her council underestimated what Ironborn actually do once they gained independence.
It was the most stupid offer on the blacks part ngl
Agreed! The Greyjoys might not be the typical Westerosi lords, but they have a very rich history.
Imo
1) Starks- Been there forever, well respected all around, good diplomacy and in general very competent at managing their kingdom
2) Martells- Keep control over a multi-ethnic nation with ease and competent enough even to resist the Targs when they still had dragons, extremely competent governors, constantly make smart political moves (outside of Arienne and the Sand Snakes who aren't part of the actual family anyway)
3/4) Arryn and Lannister- Both very competent families with interesting stories about their origins, Arryns have their identity as the first Andal Kingdom which is cool, Lannisters have grown in power as time has gone by and been very prosperous
5) Baratheon- Despite being a Bastard line of the Targaryens and being gifted their positions, they are also directly decended from the Storm kings through the female line created a great melded identity that ties them to the Targ crown during their reign but also to the original history of the land
6) Tully- Riverlands are just unlucky, it's the worst kingdom to rule outside of the Iron Islands, every single civil war just fucks you over and over and yet they still have a respectable reign even if it's kind of characterized by doing jack shit
7) Tyrells- Literal only claim is being descended from Garth Greenhand and there's like 10 other families that could do the same (imo the Fossoways, Florents, and the Hightowers would be much better choices) basically just awarded one of the best kingdoms for not being burned alive, generally middling rulers, supported the dumbest claim in the war of 5 kings because he was ramming their youngest son in the ass, actual shit house
8) The Targaryens- Don't know how you placed them at #1, they don't deserve to rule the Crownlands let alone the 7 Kingdoms, only even got in power because they had nukes, still couldn't conquer Dorne without marrying into it, half of their monarchs are insane in an incompetent way, 1/4 are good, and the last 1/4 are insane in a dangerous way constantly causing civil wars, fuck themselves out of dragons by civil warring too much, Habsburg levels of incest, don't even have any allies in Essos where they were originally from, pretend to follow the 7 but literally have no intention in following it outside of Baelor the Blessed, actual major villains in 99% of Westerosi history after their arrival
9) Greyjoy- Basically the Tyrells except with a kingdom that is worse than the Riverlands and instead of 1/2 of your Kings being good like the Targaryens they're all shit, Literally none of the Greyjoy family members even respect each other, Miserable line of morons for those miserable little shit covered rocks they live on
This was the list I thought of aswell
Based and true regarding the Lolrells
Please continue with this content! Love it and you are to say the least good at it, informqtive but not too boring, perfect amount of detail, and so on!
Keep it up❤
Thanks, I think! Assuming that me being the least good at it was a typo haha.
@@theboarandthelionhaha what i meant is that the least i can say is tgat your goof at it!
In that case, thank you very much haha!
The Martells should have a higher place. Despite the dragons burning their kingdom, they did not submit to the Targaryens, they even brought down a dragon. They joined on their own terms. That is badass.
The Tullys lol. Easily. Some people will argue the Tyrell’s but they actually have influence in their own kingdom. The Tullys are basically liege lords larping as great lords.
The Targs squandered there power and dominance at every opportunity so them.
And still managed to keep their position throughout all that. And now Daenerys is coming for that Iron Chair
@@kwekuakoni-ampah945in 2045 at this rate.
(Making many sacrifices to Rhllor)
Their biggest weakness was always their tendency to faction.
But consider this, the targs built the system that all the westerosi lords now follow.
Through the conquest, they invented the game of thrones.
I'd say that's pretty great, and makes them deserving of the "great house title"
For a real world allegory, house carolingian ruled the kingdom of Francia, and for a time the Holy Roman Empire. Now, they lost it after a good couple generations, but their house is still considered possibly the greatest/most important early european Dynasty for what they did, with the power they had.
It is weird to say that house Targaryan is more deserving of their position then the Starks (as you put the at the top).
One house was a minor house that fled their homelands, and was chilling on an island. While the Starks ruled and continued to rule wisely even after bending the knee. The Targaryen's legitimacy is build upon dragons, and when the last dragon died so did their claim to rule. Which is why they lost more and more power until the rebellion.
Nah I would argue that the house with the most legitimate position, is house Stark.
They stayed in power for another 150 yrars after losing their dragons, so they didn't need them to rule. The reason they lose so much power is because Summerhault, wich is ironic because if they didn't tried to get more dragons they would've been far stronger than in the canon.
@darkphoenix2745 I would argue they absolutely needed the dragons to rule. Before the overgrow lizards died out the biggest threat to a Targaryen monarch was another Targaryen. Then the Dance of Dragons happen and suddenly your reliant on the loyalty of lords who have their own agendas and ambitions. Summerhall without a doubt weakened the Targaryen cause but the writing was on the wall a long time before that when noble houses backed Daemon Blackfyre to raise his banners in rebellion.
@@jonathonmcclellan4716 I mean, yeah, having dragons helped them to keep the other houses loyal, but that applies for any other house. The fact that each of the noble families have their own agendas and ambitions doesn't means the only way to control them is with dragons. Dragons are the most secure one tho.
@mansuetoyosoresblonde hair and purple eyes mean nothing to you?!
@mansuetoyosores and the most inbreed of all houses too 🤢
1 Martell - Started with barren wasteland and through conquest builds a functional kingdom that successfully resists medieval nuclear weapons.
2 Stark - Starts with frozen wasteland through conquest builds it up a functional Kingdom. Is smart enough not to lose it fighting medieval nuclear weapons.
3 Tyrell - Starts as servants of a rich bountiful kingdom. Acquires it through political maneuvers and maintains it.
4 Arryn - Leads conquest of locals. Builds impregnable castle. Maintains functional kingdom.
5 Lannister - Uses cunning to take over a kingdom with impregnable fortress and infinite money cheat code. Maintains it mostly.
6 tied Greyjoy - Part of a culture that repeatedly makes massive gains then loses it all usually to hubris. Gets elected king of the pirates when no one cares enough to appoint a king of the pirates.
6 tied Baratheon - Trick local King into leaving magically impregnable castle. Kill him, steal his family, and maintain his kingdom
8 Tully - Teams up with local invader to overthrow your own oppressive tyrant king. Maintain a doormat kingdom for 300 years.
9 Targaryen - Luck into medieval, nuclear weapons and air supremacy. Take over most but not all of the area. Bicker and squabble yourselves into extinction in a meager 300 years.
Honorable Mentions
Frey - Used basic economics to become more rich and arguably powerful than their liege lords.
Hightower - Consistent behind the scenes player through most of history. Always seems close getting a cultural win in this game of Civ VI.
"Meager 300 years" in what world is that a sentence that makes sense?
@@ap6480 It is meager compared to many houses which has been around for more than 1000+ years
@@Jason-tn3ob The houses that have been around for thousands of years are purposefully shrouded in mystery, we don't even know their exact origins, what lands they ruled for most of their existence and if they've actually even existed for that long, what we dow know is that the Targaryens ruled seven Kingdoms for three hundred years which is a a long time especially if you compare it to irl dynasties and dragonstone before that
So, the Tyrells have fullfield their role efficientely and dutifully for centuries, earned the full trust of their kings and spared their people from being burned alive by refusing a loosing battle (a move that the north king would soon repeat withought a fight). Yet somehow, they are less deserving than the Targariens who were just lucky enough to have dragons, lost one of them during their conquests (along with his rider) and managed to loose it all because of infighting and inbreeding ?
Sarcasm aside, I know this list is subjective and I've enjoyed watching it, but this is a hard disagree from me. House Tyrell is way too underated.
To me the Martells are the most deserving of their status. They weren’t gifted flying beasts that can destroy anything in sight, and in spite of that they fought of anyone who attempted to subject them through violence, and even took down a dragon.
Could you imagine if the Martells controlled Dragons?
Dorne managed to stay afloat all these years including fending off the dragons the only houses to do so.
Tyrell. They were just lucky to survive the Field of Fire during Aegons Conquest and risked nothing because they were left behind in Highgarden by the Gardener King Mern IX and opened the Gates after the battle to the victorious Tagaryan. If any son of the Royal house had survived there rule over the reach in Aegons Name would be disputed
The Targaryens were a minor family in Valyria, then they were handed the biggest cheat code imaginable through nothing but sheer luck, which they promptly let slip away largely as a result of infighting and after their advantage was gone, they lost their titles and power entirely within a century and a half and were unable to do anything about it whatsoever until being gifted said cheat code yet again. Meanwhile other houses have maintained and advanced their standings for literal thousands and thousands and thousands of years without any such god given super power. The Targaryens shouldn't be anywhere near the top of this list, I genuinely think they belong in the bottom half of such a ranking.
I LOVE the Tyrells... but I knew they'd probably be at the bottom lol
I think they're a very intriguing great house as well!
We can complain about the Tyrells, but we all know when it comes down to it, we still love that smirking girl from Highgarden.
Martell above lannister and Aryn. Managed to defeat dragons puts them in legendary status. Very deserving imo
Dont know about aryn but yea to the other
always nice to see a good video of a small channel and seeing a subgoal of his has been reached!
Thank you very much for your kind words!
The Andals arrived 6,000 years before Aegons conquest so the the Starks, Lannisters, and Arryns ruled for roughly 6,000 yrs.
arryns where of andal decent when a andali knight wi the kingship. kings of the vale where just a bunch of petty kings battling it out for supremacy before then. they haven’t ruled as long as the starks or lannisters. who actually trace their lines back to the first men.
According to the maesters the exact date is not sure. The Andal invasion took place between 6000 and 4000 years before the conquest. For the purpose of this video, I chose 4000 to calculate the length of rule of the respective houses.
I’m pretty sure the Starks and Lannisters ruled for a few thousand years before the coming of the Andals too.
They both did yes.
I dunno I wouldn't have such an easy time placing house stark beneath house targaryan. It's a song of ice and fire. Ice comes first. The dragons really weren't up to ruling all 7 kingdoms for more than a few years while the wolves knew their place and did a pretty good job.
Blessings from the algorithm today i guess 😅 I'm glad i came across you. Very underrated, great videos, keep up the great work my friend
Thank you very much for your kind words! and i'm glad you like my videos.
Definitely the Tullys
Except for the stewards to the Gardener Kings. At least the Tullys were lords. I can imagine the Hightowers and others weren't happy about the Tyrell ascension. In fact, Jon Connington supposedly has "Friends in the Reach". Many houses from The Reach were undoubtedly not content with the current situation of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.
I’d probably geive the Martells a bit of a boost on my own list, as the Rhoynish legacy of the house through Nymeria. Any group that was able to go toe to toe with Valyria at its height for 200+ years deserves a special nod, even if they did lose in the end.
I think there is even a case for the Starks being number 1. I mean they have been supporting the Night's Watch a lot and have a vast territory to defend, so they can't always bring heaps of troops to bare, even so, they manage to defend such a huge territory.
dorne didn't submit or get conquered, they joined of their own accord. they are the most deserving of their place. no other kingdom is ruled by a prince.
It's hard to argue against your list. Longevity ruling, feat of valor and combat are the correct criteria to list the houses.
i might be the only one but i always looked at the kingdoms of westeros as seperate entities. Its just way more interesting this way. All the regions have such a distinct feel to them
"For most of us the Seven Kingdoms make most sense as a single entity"
Really?? We see the Seven Kingdoms in a state of civil war throughout almost the entire story lol
I understand that from the POV of someone who watched Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon, the statement can feel a bit of weird. But if you've read the books, and know the full history of Targaryen rule over Westeros, it was mostly a united realm.
@@theboarandthelion I've read the books (twice) and only watched very little of GoT/HotD.
I know what you mean about the Targ rule but we never get to see that first hand (even the Dunk & Egg stories show a state of rebellion)...
And even during the 300 years of Targ reign there was almost always infighting between the houses, rebellions, religious civil wars, war with Dorne etc etc...
Not to mention the 1000s of years before the Targs...
Really the Seven Kingdoms were almost never united and the only time we get to see it being united is in the first few chapters/episodes before Robert dies
House Martel should be second they were never conquered so that is S Tier level.
While this is true they are cowards. Literal snakes, this is something they seem to take pride in tho. Yes they were never conquered but they also never met they enemy in battle. They refused to and let Dorne burn instead. Yes it worked but not through valour but Cowardice.
Nah, House Martell is pretty mid. No Navy, no City and no notable individuals after the conquest. How tf House Manderly/Stark and House Targaryen build a city/roads for their Kingdoms but House Martell did nothing at all lol.
Dorne are weak as shit , using cat and mouse tactics and poison to win their battles , they are so weak that they inhabit the most useless most inhabitable land in Westeros !
@@svampen7782 Valor is the foolishness of young men that is manipulated by their betters to send them off to war. It's no means by which to measure a bloodline or a political strategy. Meeting the Targaryens in battle was suicide and they were wise to be cautious and conservative instead of attempting to prove their mettle against dragonfire.
The Tullys literally owe their very existence to the Targaryens.
And still stood against them during Roberts rebellion... Red wedding got them taken care of tho
@@kinggidorah6910 House Baratheon, Tyrell too owes their very existence to the Targaryen's
@@AegonTargaryen300 true, Tyrels at least were loyal, mostly anyway. Baratheons are just anger issue house. They are to gone practikly so in the end, they don't matter.
@@AegonTargaryen300 tyrells were around during the gardners and literally helped the gardners build back up on multiple occasions. They were 10 times the house the tullys were
My vote would be:
Most deserved - Martell (fought Valeria and then the Targs)
Least deserved - Tully (planted by the Targs)
Wow I had known it but watching this video only really put it in my face that aegon targaryian raised 5 houses(if you count house targaryian) into king status and they still overthrow their house 300 years later
Hot take the Targaryens were not the most deserving they litterally took over the world not because they had skill but because luck had caused all of the people stronger than them to die. The starks however that’s a family that deserved its throne
Awesome stuff my friend. Keep up the good work.
I second this!
Thank you both very much for your kind words!
1) House Tully- No experience at ruling, too many vassals who outclass them in troops, wealth, territory and prestige. Replace them with House Mallister.
2) House Tyrell- Same position as House Greyjoy but as stewards to House Gardener, they would have some experience managing affairs beyond their Domains.
3) House Greyjoy- While Pyke is not the wealthiest, largest, oldest or Prestigeous island they do have the strongest Castle. Also, they were chosen by their own people rather than being appointed by Aegon. While House Tyrell had trouble controlling their vassals in the early Targaryen reign, House Greyjoy maintained absolute control over its vassals.
The Mallister bit is absolutely based.
@@DJayEJay Who else is there? They would never accept the Freys, The Brakens and Blackwoods are a hot potato that should not be handled. It is either the Mallisters or the Mootons.
To quote: “The Tyrells are dogs, they are my liege lords but they are dogs.”
Would otherwise joke the correct flag for house Tyrell is a plain white field.
Was conquered by the Targaryens = Everyone else
Was not conquered by the Targaryens = House Martell
For that reason alone, Martell should be number 2 after the Targaryens
Idk which house is the less deserving, probs the Tully, but to me the most deserving are the Martell. They kept the independency of Dorne for almost 200 years. Also they are descendants of Queen Nymeria. Oh, do you remember that time a vassal of the Martells revolted and almost overthrew them? Yeah, me neither. They inspire respect and loyalty to their subjects. Their inheritance system is also just superior, granting their kingdom always has several valid heirs and 0 risk of extinction due to lack of male children. Their only sin is Prince Doran being a man of peace being caught in the biggest civil war since the Dance.
King Mern IX Gardener made a terrible decision. Why would you bring all of your heirs with you to a battle, and particularly one against dragons? "Sons and grandsons" implies multiple of each. So why wouldn't you leave at least one back in Highgarden? The Starks have the right of it, with their "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" mentality
very true!
I'm surprised you didn't put the Martells in top 3. Who could be more deserving of ruling their territory than the house that fought off the Targaryens successfully?
Houses that fought of the Andals, I would say
Least deserving:
Tully, Tyrell I'd say. Tullys happened to have a great castle that sat in the right place at the right time. Tyrells sort of similarly just clung to the power of their liege lords long enough to see them wiped out. Schemers.
Drone should’ve been 3rd. They were the only kingdom not conquered by dragons
I would personally put dorne second, They pulled off the near impossible by killing a dragon, It is a feat of legendary proportion considering the period and how hopeless the other houses ended up being
Most Deserving: House Greyjoy. Kingsmoot Elected. Paid the iron price.
2nd is Targaryen: Right of conquest. Dragons.
Ill take a tyrell over a TULLY any day
They cant even seem to stop shit in their OWN LANDS
House Tyrel atleast knows how to pick & choose their battles while simultaneously feeding the realm
the Riverlands are also the most difficult kingdom to rule over, though. The Crown after Aegon's conquest and the Lannister/Frey after the War of 5 kings couldn't control and stabilise the region either
@niccologregorutti9309
Fr though, and I say all this not to offend, I just feel the only "REASON" aegon gave the Riverland to House Tully, was cause they "rebelled" against the iron born, though they only did this AFTER aegon came and AFTER he burnt House Hoare to a black charred crisp
@@redadmiralofvalyria867 I think it was because Lord Tully was the first of the Riverlords to bend his knee to Aegon
I do believe that house Tully led the Riverlands in rebellion before the burning of Harrenhal. And because they led that rebellion, they were rewarded with the lordship of all the Riverlands
I like this video I just have trouble seeing the Greyjoys so high, especially over Baratheons. It was enlightening though, I didn’t expect to see the Tyrell’s so low but after the explanation it made sense.
I'm glad you liked it!
I would argue that the Tyrells do at least somewhat deserve their position, because the winners of battles and wars write the history and gain the spoils.......The fact that they were not fighting against the Targaryens, obviously made the Targaryens look favourably upon them. The majority of the other houses were fighting against the Targaryens, so obviously they cannot make claims and sook about anything since they lost.
Interesting ranking mine would be: 1st Nymeros-Martell for ingenuity, diplomacy & resilience. 2nd Stark for being so resilient for so long, historically iconic. 3rd or 4th Arryn for ancient & cultural significance. 3rd or 4th Targaryen for mostly luck but also the feat of basically uniting Westeros. 5th Lannister oldish but too dependent on plot armour & few legendary accomplishments. 6th Tully for negotiating their way to such a high status from a middling at best rank. 7th Tyrell basically risen to power for symbolic reasons on the part of Aegon. 8th Baratheon piggy backed their way to power off of Aegon then copied durrandons. 9th Greyjoy nobody even cared enough to pick an iron lord, they just left it to the people there to sort themselves out
Good list! Although I especially disagree with the low placing of the Greyjoys. These guys ruled as chosen kings of the Iron Islands for many years!
Tyrells are the one that suggest and support Gardener to fight with Aegon. They were cunning and played the game right. Also being stewards to lords and become the one of strongest region shows that they deserved their place.
The greyjoys. The tyrells and tullys may have less claim to their thrones than the greyjoys to theirs, but at least they weren't constantly starting shit like the greyjoys.
The Targaryens were on easy mode with their dragons. They cheated their way into power when other kings did so with armies of men. And even then they managed to lose that position by wasting their dragons while infighting. They deserve the last spot, not the first.
I like Tyrell the most. Such an underrated house. I do agree with the order though
Martell are second in this list, as they are the only house to not be conquered by Aegon (while killing a dragon) and kept their independence for 150 years, finally deciding themselves to join the (at the time) Six Kingdoms without a war
Its about legitimacy, every single house in the 7 Kingdoms has legitimacy aside from 2; Tullys and Tyrells.
House Tyrell: Yes they were stewards but they were still raised by Aegon I to counter the influence of the Hightowers who were the natural successors to the Gardaners. Tyrells arent respected, every house claims direct descent from the mythical ruler Garth Greenhand. The powerful houses of the Reach, Tarlys, Rowans, Hightowers, Oakhearts, Florents, Redwyns etc all have direct ties to the Gardeners and were the principle bannermen of the old kings. Tyrells were literally just stewards, akin to minor lords. Tyrells are smart though, they managed to have so many children that they married them all into the noble houses. Tyrells are tied to every house in the reach, like vines they grow crazy fast covering the entire reach. They also have the holdings of House Gardaner like Highgarden, being wealthy helps. the only ones they cant seem to get a hold on are the Hightowers who still control vast lands and massive influence in the reach. Thats why they never challenged them dureing the Dance.
House Tully: The total opposite, they are a poor house with poor land. Mallisters, Mootons, Brackens, Blackwoods, Freys, whoever the fuck is holding harrenhal all have more wealth and power than their leige lord. Tullys are honestly a fucking joke.
Hey, really nice content dude! You may not have all the lore down quite as tight as some other channels who are REALLY deep in the weeds, but your presentation, structuring, narration, and editing were all really nice! Subscribed! Hope you get to 1000 subs soon, man! Keep up the nice work. I’m gonna go watch some more of your videos!
Thank you very much for your kind words!
I think its fairly stupid to just discount that House Baratheon is essentially a House Durrandon expy. They took Durrandon's lands, castle, sigil, words, and daughter, and just slapped Baratheon onto it. If you are going to give Lannister credit for Lann the Clever, you should take the Storm King lineage into consideration for Baratheon. and if you do, having them this low is a joke.
Also, Tully over Tyrell is ridiculous. The Riverlands is the 1900s France of Westeros, just getting their asses kicked every other minute by anyone with more than 7 guys. The Tyrells, while newly appointed, were still Stewards of Highgarden for countless ages, and the Reach was always a powerful kingdom.
If Orys would have taken the Durrandon name, they would probably have tied with House Stark. As it stands now: House Baratheon has only existed for 300 years. The reason they are at the top of the lords paramount is because of their Durrandon history however.
Robert was called Robert Baratheon, not Robert Durrandon. For all intents and purposes, House Baratheon is a new House, and GRRM seems to agree, as he wrote the Baratheons were the youngest of the Great Houses. So, no. Baratheons may have Durrandon blood... but they are not Durrandons.
@@zaja2418 yeah Durrandon blood, Durrandon lands, Durrandon's castle, Durrandon's vassals, Durrandon's words, Durrandon's sigil, etc...... but, nah they're totally new! Come on.
@@KS-xk2so Hey, don't tell me. Tell GRRM who wrote, and I quote:
'The youngest of the Great Houses, born during the Wars of Conquest. Its founder, Orys Baratheon, was rumored to be Aegon the Dragon's bastard brother'.
GRRM considers House Baratheon to be younger than House Arryn, even though the Durrandons were kings thousands of years before the Andals came.
20 more subs, lets go dude!!
Thanks you so much for the support!
The house that immediately came to my mind after reading the title of the video is tyrells
House Tyrell still hold on should politics rather than swords.. they are Smart
Awesome video with a perfect mix of amazing art
Thank you very much for your kind words!
3 got their seats for doing nothing (Tyrell, Greyjoy, Tully)
1 got its seat for being a royal bastard's descendants (Baratheon)
Who knows who deserved their position most of all, but I certainly know which ones deserved it _least_ of all.
Calling it before I watch. House Tully.
Tyrells. They always sit back and do the bare minimum. That’s the only reason they got high garden in the first place.
Can't disagree with the list! What I disagree is about the words chosen on House Tyrell.
They were always close to power in the Reach and administered Highgarden for centuries or milliennias.
It was implied they were the power behind the oaken throne on the time of weak Gardener kings and once a Tyrell
restored the royal power to the Gardeners, defeating Peake and Manderly pretenders. In other words, they have been ruling the country alongside the Gardeners, something a few other great houses haven't done it before Aegon the Conqueror elevated them. Perhaps they could be ahead of the Tullies.
I also would put the Martells higher up. While the Starks or Lannister lost their crowns, the Martells never lost theirs, not even to the Targaryens.
Mostly i would do the same Except i'm Definitly putting the Tullys Last, though the Tyrells are a Easy 2th Last.
Tully last for sure 😂 im glad to see that everyone in the comments agrees. Tyrrells did a way better job, keeping the reach the most prosperous region and preventing them from splitting in small pieces.
And they do have Royal ancestry Gardner blood.
Great Video, although I personally think House Tully is least deserving of its title. I honestly don't like House Tully in general. I kinda of see their members as prideful insecure idiots. They got their position through pure luck. They look down upon House Frey and call them "Up jumped toll collectors". In reality, I think they are just jealous of them because house Frey EARNED its position as one of the most important houses in the Riverlands instead of being granted it through pure chance. The Tully's have less land than the Blackwoods, a smaller castle than house Mallister, a weaker army than house Bracken, and less money than house Frey. They are UP JUMPED Vassals, Nothing more.
I mean personally I wouldn't put as much importance on the mythic past of some houses but I like the list. I guess would put the Martells higher.
I just stumbled across your Channel on my recommended videos I Love A Song of Ice and Fire in Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon I just finished watching your video very knowledgeable and very informative I particularly enjoyed your precise dating of how long the different houses ruled over their perspective regions I've always been a little confused about that how long they ruled their prospective regions how are you able to learn this information if you don't mind my asking I've studied every piece of lore I could find and I've never come across anything indicating specifically how long they've ruled their respective region❤
Firstly, thank you very much for your kind words! For the information i've mainly used The World of Ice and Fire. But even the dates there are not set in stone. The Andal invasion for example could have been 6000 years ago, but also 4000 years ago according to the maesters. For the purpose of this video, I chose 4000 and went with it.
@theboarandthelion you're welcome you put a lot of depth and care and thought into this and I respect and appreciate that it's refreshing to meet devoted fans to A Song of Ice and Fire as much as I am I do vividly recall when I first start watching Game of Thrones about the andal Invaders I can see why you would choose 4000 years instead of 6,000 from my perspective 4,000 years makes sense because of the Citadel and the Maesters so I think that was a great example to use I do enjoy thorough analysis of the world of Song of Ice and Fire and its Mysteries and I'm definitely going to keep watching your videos you're doing a good job making them so keep up the good work!😁
Really underrating House Martell here. The only house not to be allowed their title as a table scrap by the Targaryens are almost a tie with the Greyjoys? The Greyjoys were just one island among many before someone else gave them their chance. Arryn and Lannister were permitted to have their position by another house; the Martells forged theirs on their own. Should matter a lot more than mere longevity.
Not to mention, the Dornish were never conquered by the Dragons. In fact they slayed one of the queens and her dragon. Only came into the fold through marriage which is why they are allowed to retain the titles of Prince and Princesses of Dorne.
@@SteezLouise the dornish have the largest plot armor in westeros the idea that a desert kingdom starved of major resources could have those resources bathed in flame for years and not have an economic collapse is dumb
While you make a good point about the Tyrell's deserving it the least look what they made of their ward of the south. It's one that rivals the Lannister's in wealth and power. The Tully's have a comparable region, and yet they are pushovers for all the others during the War of Five Kings.
You're absolutely right. The results of this list would be vastly different if I measured at 298 AC. That may be a fun video to do sometime in the future.
Have to disagree. House Stark is number 1. Ruled for thousands of years. Descended from the first men. Responsible for some of the greatest buildings on the continent and the wall. Have previously fought and defeated the white walkers. Keep the kingdoms safe from wildling invasion. Largest area of any kingdom making it harder to rule. With the exception of house Bolton they have the most loyal bannermen.
Did it all without a single dragon.
It is easy to control your vasals when you have 10 time more soldiers than they have. House Tully rulled vassals that are more powerful than they are. Respect to Tullies.
Nice to see this before RR cause we know who at the top after that
The Targaryens deserved power the least. They had dragons, they had the Seven Kingdoms and all they had to do was not fuck things up.
Wouldn't you know, they fucked it up losing both the dragons and the Seven Kingdoms in the process. 😂
Also this list has gone from who deserves power the least to who ruled the longest.
Dude unironically put the Ironborn above the Chad Baratheons
Martel should be second if you're including them. They held out against the conquest where no other could as well as a later invasion of the other kingdoms, only joined through marriage over 2 centuries AC. They deserve their position more than Starks, Arryns or Lannisters because they were actually strong enough to hold it, who cares how long the others ruled before they lost
The Starks and Lannister withstood hundreds of years of war with the Andals. The Arryn's were the only Andal house to succesfully claim an entire kingdom during the invasion, after multiple years of war. The Martells needed a foreign queen landing on their shores to even rule Dorne. I get the point about how they defended themselves during Aegon's Conquest, but Westerosi history is more than just the conquest.
I'd say House Tyrell, they were literally just stewards and the only reason they were made lord paramount was because somehow none of House Gardener was left in Highgarden and non survived battle, and thus it was they who surrendered castle.
House Tully might be close second but they already had Riverrun and were lords, just not kings, plus fought for Aegon against House Hoare, so actually did work for it.
they ran the entire kingdom in all but name. So why aren't they deserving of the position
They had ran the Reach countless times as regents and literally put House Gardener together again and re-united the Reach after House Gardener fell apart. Further it’s heavily implied that the reason House Gardener didn’t survive, leaving the Tyrell’s in charge of High Garden was because the Tyrell’s had plotted it, convincing the Gardeners to meet Aegon on the battlefield knowing the Gardeners would lose.
There should have been some female Gardeners left, but I guess they married into House Tyrell
@@kidgforce1 if they did they would have the best uncontested claim and be in the same boat as Lannisters and Baratheons George is just bad at writing his histories the gardener extinction makes no sense
I haven't watched the video yet but my vote is for Greyjoy.