The Lies Go Deeper Than I Thought...
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To be clear, 7PRC can indeed get to 3000 in handloading and I like the cartridge. It may be my favorite. BUT I’ve heard sooo many reports of people saying the Precision Hunter load is nowhere near what’s advertised that it’s notable. If you’re using the factory ammo for both, there’s no ballistic advantage to the 7 PRC over 6.8 Western.
An "industry insider" who I know personally and claims to have inside information about this issue, but who wishes to remain anonymous, told me after publishing this video that Hornady was using Reloder 26 powder in the 7mm PRC initially and was close to the advertised velocity, but now can't get that powder and has switched to a ball powder that they can't get the same velocity with. If true, this sucks. A dramatic change to factory ammo without telling consumers and without updating the numbers on the box means consumers waste their money re-zeroing, re-doping, and guessing what will happen with their next box. Very poor transparency--though that is the common practice in the ammo industry.
FREE ADVICE FOR AMMO MAKERS: Want to win some market share? Put a sticker on each box of ammo giving the velocity of the ammo FROM THAT LOT. Include the info from test barrels of 3 different barrel lengths and list them right there. It'd cost basically nothing and would make you IMMEDIATELY stand out from the competition.
Since I got my 6.8 western, in part thanks to your videos initially, I've shouted from the rooftops that the 7 prc isn't any better than the 6.8. Mine shoots right at 3000fps with the winchester ablr load. And it's pretty darn accurate as well
Perhaps manufacturers should list information on their websites
Different barrel lengths , altitudes, temperatures , etc 🤔
Have you had a chance to test the 7 prc with hand loads or the federal ammo just trying to see some info on it I was planning on going and buying a 7mm prc in the next couple days but maybe double thinking that
So...im a member of backfire plus, but what is your honest opinion...if you were going to buy a 7.....what would you go with ....a 7mm rem....a 280 ai....or what... my 280ai... is shooting 2859 with a pretty mild handload... I was suprer excited to buy a 7prc...yet now after this video.... I think I may pump the breaks a while...and either use my 280 ai, 300 win or my old reliable 3006.....and maybe buy me a 22 creed....or a 6.8 western... or one of those point and click burris eliminators for a current setup... I don't know why you'd overpay for a 7prc when a 7mm rem mag exist at this point...
Yes, I am shooting 2950 with Reloder 26 and a 175. But Reloder 26 is hard to come by. I’ve also shot the federal load and it’s much faster than Hornady precision hunter but I am yet to see anyone quite hit 3000 with factory ammo and a 24” barrel.
I wish more creators would call the lies. Thanks for the work.
Except he is lying just as bad, all other ammo manufacturers for the 7 PRC are getting near Horandys numbers kind of left that out. Acting like this is a 7 prc problem is dishonest 💯.
Hornady is having supply chain issues with their powder nothing more nothing less.
They dont wanna risk a potential sponsorship
To be very honest about being honest... There's a butt ton of backlash when you're honest in a gun video. I have a couple that I get seething comments on a regular basis. As my wife says, I seem to pull the pin on social media hand grenades routinely. If a creator makes a video pointing out bad product or information, it's guaranteed to receive regular negative posts. Hell, your post alone has one post calling Backfire a liar. LOL
@@seanmtactical6069 lying through omission is still lying. He’s fully aware there are other manufacturers producing 7 prc ammo that get advertised velocities. He did edit and make some corrections on that so props for that and me call it was warranted
@@OutsidetheEchochamberif they are having supply issues, update the box.
One of the best channels on TH-cam. Great comment, great family and interesting subjects....
Wow, thank you!
My 7prc 22” proof barrel is avg 2753 with Hornady Precision Hunter ammo. I was disappointed too.
Those are 280/280 Ackley numbers.
At that speed the rem mag is kicking its butt.
Man that's bad, I wouldn't be happy either.
so you bought a 280AI
Why would you buy a rifle chambered in a magnum cartridge with only a 22” barrel?
As Paul Harrell says, their numbers are "optimistic".
Great quote. LOL 👍
I like the cross reference to Paul
Companies like Gamo, Benjamin, Crosman ect that make crappy break barrel airguns for inflated prices are about to get piston airguns requiring a very difficult to obtain firearms license here in NZ, thanks to their ridiculously over inflated velocity claims. Every industry is filled with lies. Also the police, politicians and activists either pretend to believe said velocity claims or are too ignorant and lazy to verify said claims. Marketing people are a scourge in this planet. It's going to ruin my hobby.
Good day
@@Patrick-857can't blame companies when its the citizens that willingly gave their rights away in the first place.
Great video . Kinda shows that the old 30-06 with modern ammo is still in the race as a hunting cartridge . You can’t reinvent the wheel .
I just got back from Africa and took a lot of big animals with a 30-06. None of them complained that it was an 118 year old design.
Ha! Because with the real numbers on the box people would see that the 7prc has no better ballistics than the 7mm Rem Mag. That doesn’t make for a hot seller….
Thing is that 7 rem mag if you're a reloader has no problems hitting 3k fps with a 175gr or heavier bullet.
As a lifelong hunter, but novice to the intricacies of ballistics, I’ve used this channel and others to make my purchase of my first new rifle and cartridge combo. From all I’ve researched I’m happy with my choice of a Bergara B-14 Wilderness Ridge in 7 rem mag. Living in a rural area of Montana out on the plains I’m a day hunter so the extra weight of the gun doesn’t bother me and I can find ammo easily in great bullets. Thank you to for all the info and videos to make purchases easier and simplify things for the newbies!
I honestly thought Jim was in bed with Hornady since he got one of the first 7 PRC’s. But this is actually very impressive that he would be willing to do this. He’s not saying the PRC is bad but he’s actually showing the world what we already know but it takes a big name like him to actually say this so hopefully the 6.8 western will get a revival because we all knew this with the seven PRC. I applaud him for being the first person to do rock on 💪
Did you feel smarter than the average bear when you thought Jim was shilling for hornady?
Backfire, purveyor of truth and bane of the dishonest manufacturer.
Good work, appreciate all the work you do.
Hey @backfire. I sell guns part time and have been telling people these same things about over inflated velocites, barrel lengths, the 2 6.5's being the same and how amazing the 6.8 western really is for years. I commend you for being honest and putting this out.
Just here to say that .30-06 is the stuff.
Never felt the need to buy a rifle that shoots anything else for big game.
I too like to stick with the tried and true calibers. I avoid the new ones until they've been around long enough to develop a track record
Awe yes the turdy ooougt six the onliest rifle cartridge that should even exist ! Nuthin else is even fit Fer squirrel 😂
I could go on but I have a cousin to court. 😅
@@jacktrout5807 sounds fun
The G.O.A.T.
I’ve seen several videos of the 7prc not performing as stated on the box, and not just by a little. Usually around 200 fps slower.
Finally Hornady is being called out for their blatant lies ("marketing") with their 7 PRC and 6.5 PRC cartridges. Makes me want to support them even less than I do. They reinvent rounds and many just go along with the hype (260 Rem vs 6.5 Creedmoor is one and their 22 ARC is a less powerful 22 Nosler for example, lots of other examples too) As a fan of the 6.8 Western I really don't like them because they are so insecure that they won't support a competitors round. Meanwhile the adults and Winchester and Browning support their stupid PRC rounds.
I'm a Nosler fan but they need to measure their b.c's again to get more accurate numbers. They need to do better.
Don't forget to rule out/test 6.5 PRC and 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady Match ammo as well... for the PRC and 147's the advertised speed is 2910. Shooting them out of a brand new CVA Cascade with a 24" barrel here in Utah at 5k feet, the actual velocity over an average of 10 shots was only 2727... that's 183fps slower than advertised on the box. I've also noticed this with Hornady Match 140gr in 6.5 Creedmoor. It's listed at 2710fps. I've now tested this in 3 different Creedmoor's, all factory. Weatherby Vanguard, Savage Axis, and a Tikka t3 lite. ALL of them averaged about 2615 to 2620. That's about 100fps slower than advertised on the box... Hornady is most DEFINITELY lying about their velocities on their boxes.
I'm not sure that the Remington 260 or the 308 was the target of the 6.5 Creedmore when it came out but with the hype the CM got from the start, the cartridge that was the most obvious comparison, ballistics wise, was the .260. Everyone figures that the .308 just with the .30 caliber size of the bullet alone would struggle out past 300 yards to match the CM ballistics. But the 260, because of powder capacity and slightly shorter/lighter bullet starts out around 150 FPS faster, takes the CM out to 700+ before the BC allows it to catch up in speed, drop and energy. Everybody who bothers to look at the performance on the box of bullets noticed the 260 speed and less drop and more energy than the CM up to the usual 500 yard normal max distance shown on a box of bullets. I think Hornady, in their latest edition reloading manual, now has the 6.5 CM muzzle velocity at around 25 FPS faster than the 260. Bad thing is, I'm a 260 believer and have one in a Rem. 700 PCR and the 130 grain Hornady ELDM will easily and consistantly shoot a sub .500 MOA at 100 yards. Maybe even better with a talented marksman cause I ain't. I can put up with their inflated 6.5 CM numbers if they will continue to make 260 ammo that actually performs as good or better than their bullet proof, pun intended, caliber. It has certainly taken a toll on several cartridges and the 260 the most. Hopefully too many 260s still in use out in the hunting/competition public for it to completely be abandoned.
I had similar velocities to yours with Precision Hunter out of a Bergara Ridge in 7 PRC. I dialed in a handload with 168gr Barnes LRX that is very accurate but moving around 2860. My Browning 6.8 Western gets very close to box velocities with the Game Changer and ABLR factory ammo. Very tight groups with the ABLR. Both are great shooting rifles for me and both cartridges offer good ballistics. It is just funny how the 6.8 Western pulls ahead with my two rifles despite the hype train on 7 PRC telling us it is the be all-end all. Interesting to hear that mine is not an isolated experience with better performance out of a 6.8 Western.
Until you try Federal ammunition
I thought Jim was the patron Saint of the 7 PRC. Happy he’s able to call out problems when he sees them.
Very true, but gets on board little to early. Kinda like the rest of us. Lol.
@@travissmith-wz5nc in his defense hornady sold it pretty good..
To be fair to the 7PRC here, he's calling out Hornady's current ammo, that's all. Their initial ammo was apparently faster, and Federal is reportedly hitting box velocities. So the 7PRC is still a dandy, potentially. It just needs some time to get kinks worked out, like everything new and technical.
@@JJ-iu5hl
Exactly!!! I’m not a 7 PRC hater, it’s a great cartridge. I’m pissed at Hornady. When you follow the last two years and how things have progressed and the shady practices, all in order to shutdown the 6.8 Western? I don’t respect that. They lost me as a customer, which sucks, because I love my 6.5 PRC and the Hornady ammo that I shoot out of out.
@@jimedick9496I my experience hornady is crap ammo
I asked this question on hornady's youtube video on the 7 PRC. Here's the response from hornady:
"When the 7mm PRC was first introduced, the velocity specifications were set using several high-performance propellants that were readily available at the time. As most of you are aware, there is a world-wide propellant shortage. As such, we’ve been forced to find alternative propellants. When choosing a substitute powder, we focus on accuracy, consistent ignition, and temperature stability. A new propellant option met our criteria and, more importantly, is available, however it often doesn’t achieve the original velocity specifications. With this reduction in velocity coupled with variation in chambers and barrels, it is possible to see 75-175 fps slower velocity from your rifle, than the velocity printed on the box. This alternative propellant solution does generate the consistency and accuracy we demand. Other substitutes did not meet those requirements; we prioritized accuracy over speed. Hornady has always encouraged shooters to test ammunition from their rifles to obtain accurate velocity data.
Due to the powder shortage, everyone in the ammunition manufacturing sector is faced with choosing between loading ammunition slower than originally specified, or simply not loading ammo at all. This temporary powder solution has allowed us to continue to produce and ship ammunition despite the powder availability concerns."
They aren’t interested in finding the truth
@@OutsidetheEchochamber What do you mean?
Could be the truth I found some retumbo and it produced higher numbers in my gun
But the cartridge is still your favorite right? A little more power than 6.5 but less than 300 win. Hand loading appears to be the answer
@@annexpaint luckily there are other factory options too
Hornady s arrogance has no boundaries. I only wish Browning would actually support the 6.8 western like they cared about it's success
Thank you so much, Jim, for cutting through all the misinformation on the 7prc!!!!! Your clear insight into the reality of sales hype is sobering!! Sounds like everyone should let Hornady know that we’re on to them! Or maybe start buying ammo from other manufacturers!!!!!!!
Happy I stayed with a 7Mag then
Same here!
Most hunter are goobers, they won't test, they take the data off the box and the drops and then wonder why they miss. And if the 6.5 PRC and the 6.5 CM are the same that means the 6.5x47 and the 6.5 XC are also the same as the PRC because that case capacity of the CM, 47, and XC are within a few grains of each other.
But we've seen this before. a 30-06 in a 22" barrel, at 300 WM in a 24" barrel, or any magnum in a short barrel giving up all that performance and wasting powder just so you can say you have a magnum. you can't take a .338 Lapua and use it in a 22" barrel and expect 30" barrel performance.
The xc and cm are the same just one is Sammi and one is still considered a wilde cat
LOL at "most hunters are goobers!" True this- you should never shoot beyond distance practiced and proven on the range so you know your cartridge performance.
With that reasoning the 308 and 300 win mag are the same cartridge too. Great video though!
@@craigwhite7209kind of. A 24 inch 308 has the same velicity as a 16 inch 300 win.
143 ELD-X at 2975 in my 24” PRC. Same barrel, same bullet 2730 FPS in 6.5 Creedmoor.
He is saying 20 inch 6.5prc is same as creedmoor with shot barell
I don't know if you remember when I was telling you that we made the first 7 prc but we could not get anywhere near the velocity that Hornady says could be achieved they gave us a chamber reamer and brass and when I used their load data it incinerated the primer the 6.8 western is a better cartridge
I’ve always stood by the utility of 6.8 Western! And I’ve suspected the 7prc numbers were inflated, but I’m very glad to see someone prove it. I get why hornady did it, but… man. It’s so dishonest. And they tried to take down a cartridge that is phenomenal, and deserves more factory offerings, which is the 6.8 Western!
Plus it fits in a short action
The 7 prc literally has the performance of a modern short action
The problem with the 6.8 western is there are few rifles chambered in it. None of the rifles I've seen are of interest to me. I think it is a dandy cartridge but outside of building a custom rifle, I don't see how I can get what I'd like
@@jeffranck6080seekins Havak in 6.8 is pretty cool
on the 6.5s - i gues sif you want a shorter barrel, you want the PRC b/c the CM in the same length (short) barrel will still be slower
key (as I think you pointed out) is to compare not just apples to apples but granny smiths to granny smiths
Great video Jim. I have also found Hornady's box velocities to be inflated. But in Hornady's defense, the bcs seem to be right, standard deviation and es are stellar for factory and the groups are small. I'm willing to sacrifice some speed for that consistency. But wow the optimism on the box is excessive!
Maine North Woods Hunter here. The 6.8 Western is a .277 caliber like the 270 and 270 WSM. I expect that to go a little faster than the 7PRC. I think the 7PRC is competing with the 7 Rem Mag, trying to dethrone it. I have seen people comparing those and getting faster speeds with the 7 Rem Mag. Everyone saw the 175 gr. 7PRC advertisement at 3000 fps and that would be better than the Rem Mag BUT the PRC just doesn't do as advertised.
your not wrong....its the wind drift and the range it carries after 600m...its just doesnt tumblenearly as bad after a certain range. In the end the PRC is more accurate thats about it at 1000 yds
@@Holyspiritrecievednot true at all. My 7 rem mag 22” factory rifle is running a 175 elite at 2970 with a 8 twist factory barrel. Do you even know the difference between the two on the freebore clearance? Its .001. PRC is .001 and the mag is .002, FClass shooters run .003-.005. 7 mag is deadly accurate and has taken game past 1300 yards. I personally will not go beyond 600. That said if it isn’t broke don’t fix it.
@@Holyspiritrecieved From a target perspective i get where you are coming from. From a hunting perspective most people will never see the 600m and beyond. And those serious enough have happily been building custom 7 mags capable of far beyond the 7PRC. The same can be said for the 300 prc
its not even detrhoning the 7 mag its being equalled by a 280 AI
@SpudOutdoors yah ur right. U can spend the money to basically make it the same. I own a 7mm mag.. a 6.5prc..a 309 win msg
.you won't see me buying a 7mm prc. Even the normal 6m5 is good enough. I mean the only thing your wrong about is how the bullets and casings work on the low bc longer bullets. Having a prc is a tiny advantage that's all I'm saying
Love this video and the effort investigating what we take to be facts. I’ve thought the same about the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 6.5 PRC. Barrel length matters!
The crazy part about the Western vs. the 7 PRC is that Hornady markets the ever loving goodness out of this. The Western happened to come out at an abysmal time. I’ve long wanted to get a 270 WSM for a magnum. The Western certainly is an upgrade and from it and will quite possibly be the next caliber I add… in addition to the 6.5 Creedmoor as your video has been eye opening and confirmed some hunches. Browning will most likely get a purchase of mine for both calibers. We need to make sure the Western makes it!
On the BC of bullets.... Anyone who shoots past 500 yards and enters FPS into a Ballistic app, knows to get the 500-1000 yard dope accuracy, requires BC adjusting in the app. Under 500 yards we adjust the FPS to get the dope to line up as perfectly as possible. I cringe when I read or see hunters trust any info other than grain weight from an ammo box. I have yet to find a box in my cartridge choice where the FPS was accurate, like IBO published speeds of bows, they test with parameters we simply wont in the real world
Three years ago I spent $1300 on a nice new X Bolt in 6.8 Western when it first came out. I bought a couple of bags of Winchester brass (only a couple! - big mistake!) that was available at that time. I thought it would be available down the road so I didn't buy any more. I hunted with it, shot a good 10pt whitetail with it, killed several more animals with it with DRT results on all of them, developed several good handloads for it, and honestly it's probably the best hunting cartridge I've ever owned for deer sized game. But now, when you look at Winchester's ammo website under component rifle brass you will see an SKU number for most every cartridge EXCEPT the 6.8 Western! I don't think Winchester is even offering their brass for it anymore (not that it's the best brass anyway). What I don't understand is why NO ONE else is making anything for it. I believe it is more than popular enough to justify other makers to produce it. It's almost like Winchester doesn't want anyone else to make it. I have heard that ADG will be making brass (although it's not available yet), but something is very fishy about this whole 6.8 Western saga.
Email ADG and request brass from them. They emailed me back a few weeks ago, and they are looking hard at producing brass for the 6.8 Western. Where I purchase ammo from, wrote me back, and told me ADG is planning on producing 6.8 Western brass by the end of the year to get a feel of the market. If it sells, they’ll make it permanent.
There’s a bunch of us who own and love this carriage.
Also, for the 270 WSM owners. Write in to ADG as well. They’d like requests and a number count for both cartridges.
I feel like the 6.8 Western has been blacklisted. If I remember correctly Christensen arms and maybe one other company have started making factory guns chambered in 6.8, but we know that Hornady refuses to support it because it competes with the 7 PRC. What makes me suspicious is that when Hornady comes out with a cartridge it feels like everyone has a rifle for it especially Ruger. Ruger has an American rifle for like every caliber and even they didn't touch the 6.8. Something fishy is going on.
Ruger and hornady work together. 375 ruger, 6.5 creedmoor, the PRC cartridges etc. They market together and are a monopoly of sorts.
@@cdavison9491 makes sense that Ruger and Hornady have that connection. Feels like Hornady has the industry by the balls. Even Federal can't get support for their cartridges. Just looked at the 224 Valkyrie, I think Savage was the only company to come out with a bolt action and they only offered it for a couple of years.
The parent case is 270 wsm, which seems readily available. If you reload, it looks fairly straght forward to cut down, anneal, and reform. Fire formnfor you chamber then neck size only for thr first firing. You may need to bumb the shoulder slightly on the second( depending how much the cartridge stretches....I confess I've never shot this cartridge...)
Above sea level does have an effect.... along with different barrels, etc......
Eventually.... I've gotten to the point that I'm skeptical about everything, and I don't care as much about velocities anymore.
Just consistent velocities. (NOT max)
The sad thing for me is I purchased a 7PRC based on there hype. Now I wish I had saved my cash and just stuck with my 270.
Good news, Federal factory ammo achieves its published velocities. Buy some and happy days ahead
That's insane because a 7prc is still by far better even if it shot at 2600fps. The 270 is terrible.
I'm glad I didn't have the money (and still don't 😂) to finish my rifle build. I was sold on the 7 PRC too, but now I've moved on. It was a step backwards from what I originally set out on anyway.
Uncle Hornady isn’t going to be happy about the truth coming out on what they thought was their golden ticket. I’m not sure what’s worse; Hornady being much slower than advertised, or Nosler with the bc debacle.
Nosler got a dopler radar machine a handful of years ago, and has corrected many of their inflated BC numbers. If you study Litz's book, he goes into that that different barrels produce significantly different BC values using the same bullet. It isn't so straightforward as "Nosler fudged their BC values."
The B.C information is from a while ago and has been adjusted AFAIK
Nosler lies on their fps also
I'm getting 2780 on 6.5cm Prescision Hunter, 24" barrel on custom loads from a small shop. Pretty solid.
There’s more to this story. I just watched a podcast where they talked up Hornady’s 7mm 160 grain bullet. I load for 7mm-08 and have a 7x57 Mauser rifle coming next week, so I thought “perfect!” The bullet weight is right in the wheelhouse of both cartridges. Hodgdon shows a good variety of 160 bullets for 7mm-08 and a couple for 7x57. However, Hornady doesn’t list data for that bullet in either cartridge (and I have the Hornady reloading app so data gets updated instantly when available). Hmmmm 🧐
I was one of the First to point out the error with the 7-PRC when it comes to the 175/180 grain bullets!!!!!!!!!!!
And YES, the fanboys called me all sorts of names... 😮 But I knew, over the coming years more and more people will buy and test the muzzle velocity and the truth will eventually come out.... Thank you for having the courage to make and post this video.... Ron Spoomer - where are you???
I am an old 300 win mag, 280 ai , 270 wsm fan, but still like to try out new stuff. was very disappointed in the 7 prc but did get very accurate hand load results, nothing a 7 mm rem mag can,t do. change the twist rate of 7 rem mag, and the 7 prc will be dead
This is pure crazy talk.
Federal ammunition and weatherby ammunition are getting actual velocities. To use this as your argument you are either just a hater or willfully ignorant.
My 7PRC with a 22” barrel runs 2821 fps with Hornady precision hunter ammo. I am getting 2891 fps with Federal Premium ELD-X, also saw tighter groups with the Federal ammo
Not shown on this video, I tried the Federal load and got about 2940. Much faster than the Hornady with the same bullet. Not sure what’s up with Precision Hunter.
My howa shot the Hornady eldx absolutely terrible. Federal was 100x better.
@@backfirethe early Hornady 7prc PH loads were much faster - to the point that they were causing overpressures on rifles. Tons of information out there on this. They adjusted the charge and lowered the pressures to reduce the issues they were having. I was hitting 2775fps in an 18” barrel and had stiff bolt lift with the first couple lots that came out. I still have a box or two of it.
Reloading Weatherby was onto the 7prc difference very early on.
Funny how neither of them simply bought federal 7 prc ammo and showed this is a Hornady powder shortage problem not a 7 prc problem. Kind of discredited them for me.
As a SAUM owner I really love the idea of the PRC:It should be a moderate, balanced, fast enough but sub-magnum with factory support. It's a saum/284 win improved. I really don't understand why they felt the need to be deceitful. But also, reading some of the numbers in this comments section they're not even living up to the low end of the concept!
Yet another good reason to handload and own a nice chronograph! But if I'm being harsh, I'd say that as long as you work out your drop tables for different Density Altitudes, it doesn't matter who lies about what on the box. A range finder, the DA +/- 500ft, and your drop table is the only truth you need to hit game. (And a good ability to judge and dope wind.)
Advertised bc doesnt matter in the end, you have to test it yourself and true your ballistics compensations to it for your gun. The box bc is just a starting point.
This.
I shoot airguns, and I never use advertised BC. As a recent interview with a guru from Applied Ballistics seems to indicate, current BC models simply don't work for anything subsonic. My work with airgun projectiles shows that either their advertised BC is way off, or the algorithms in ballistic calculators designed for airguns are not matching the real world, or it's a combination of differences in the projectiles as well as differences in barrel twist, in velocity ect for my particular rifles.
BC is effected by velocity and by twist rate. As far as I'm aware, the effective BC actually changes in flight. I think the only way to truly get an accurate calculation of your trajectory is to use real world data with your rifle, in your conditions, with your ammo. Otherwise you'll just be guessing. Ballistic calculators have gotten better for centerfire shooters, bit you still need to input your actual muzzle velocity. I would argue that you need to get a true BC number with your load and your rifle as well, because a tiny difference in actual vs advertised BC, that may have nothing to do with the manufacturer of the projectile, and a lot to do with your particular setup, can throw the calculations way off.
I actually use a fairly simple piece of software for my purposes, tailored specifically for my particular target discipline. The data I input is my scope height, velocity at the muzzle, my velocity after 10 yards, my zero distance, and how many clicks I dialed to get dead on at my closest distance, and my furthest distance. That's all that's needed. From there the software calculates the whole trajectory, and spits out a tape that I wrap around an oversized elevation turret, so then I can easily dial whatever distance I need during a match. It's proven to be an extremely reliable method, whereas all the other ballistic calculators I've tried simply haven't worked for me.
My vote is for the 6.8 Western (for elk)from a fellow gober.
I wonder if the 6.8 western or 7mm PRC is actually any better than good old proven 7mm rem magnum in reality ?
Great video as always and I appreciate all the work that goes into this. Personally, I am more concerned about the consistency of the ammo rather than the departure from what is stated on the box. Unless, of course, said departure impactss the result, especially while hunting. So far, I was a bit disappointed with factory “match ammo” but maybe that’s the combination of ammo and gun. Interesting analysis and comparison between the 6.8 and 7mm PRC. They are not quite popular here in Europe, yet, but slowly picking up. Cheers.
Pistol ammo is worse I think. Some of those company’s are lying through their teeth. The chronograph has turned into the lie detector test. Keep up the good work!
The chrono/polygraph.
Hornady not only lied through their teeth about factory ammo of 175's hitting 3000 fps with a 24 inch barrel, but they are off by 200 fps. I mean seriously.... did they think no one would notice or chronograph the damn thing? How much credibility do you lose with your base when you lie to the extent of 200 fps? BTW, the selling point wasn't reloads, it was FACTORY ammo with a 1-8 twist pushing heavier bullets than a rem mag can supposedly handle (175's) at 3000. I've got a sako S20, 7 rem mag and I can hit 2970 fps with 175 bergers, and pulled a .22 inch group, and haven't even hit pressure signs yet. I have zero doubt i could easily hit 3000 fps with my 175's. The hand loaded rem mag outperforms factory 7 prc loads by 200 fps! Shame on hornady for lying through their teeth. 🤥
hornady marketing at its finest. just like a 6.5 creedmoor is so much better than a 300 win mag. i give them credit they could sell about anything
Hornady could sell ice to an Eskimo
@@bobistuffno one ever said 6.5cm is better than .300wm. The military is adopting it and phasing out .308 so the creed will be popular regardless of marketing
More than that, I maxed out at 3110 with 175 ablr .3in groups with a stock browning 26in barrel 1-8 twist, 7prc won’t get that velocity even with a 26in barrel.
@eddielombera5862 right, but my point is my 24 inch barrel with a 1-9.5 twist will ACTUALLY hit what hornady claimed the prc would be able to do with the same length barrel using factory ammo. I can do it WITHOUT having a 1-8 twist and WITH a 24 inch barrel. The rem mag can and does stabilizes the 175-180 grain pills with a 1-9.5 twist, and does so at 3000 fps. 👆
ADG Brass makes the 6.8 western relevent again
Only if we can get it in Australia 🇦🇺!!.please!
Or in Europe.
I need lapua or norma support for the brass. But it seems to be a really good cartridge.
I just measured the velocity in a 24” CVA Cascade XT in 7 PRC. Hornady Precision Hunter 175 gr. Average volocity= 2821 fps. Extreme spread between the velocities was 140 fps!
Federal Terminal Ascent 170 gr. Average velocity= 3045 fps. Extreme spread between readings= 49 fps.
Federal shoots better in my gun anyway.
Glad to hear the 308 ammo speeds were fairly accurate.
This was a good episode… I noticed the velocities a while back when the 7 prc came out. I think most people are aware of this but they kinda just shut their mouth and blindly went with the flow. I think this will grab Hornadys attention to address this. Good show man!
I never believed Hornady’s hype or anyone’s box posted MV. That being said, the 7 PRC is like a 7 SAUM that’s got a touch more horsepower that’s actually available in factory rifles with more brass options. So what’s not to love about it? If you don’t like Hornady velocity buy custom ammo or start rolling your own. It’ll make those numbers just not out the box
The point was not to reload. 7 mag reloaded the PRC cannot touch it. And at those numbers might as well shoot a 280 AI.
@@SpudOutdoors the Rem mag has maybe 2 grains extra powder capacity. Saying the PRC can’t touch it is silly. Especially if you have a factory rem mag chamber and are running heavy bullets. A 280 AI is awesome and one I considered but the 7 prc give you again a touch more horsepower and can already be found in more factory rifles. The PRC is a hopped up 7 SAUM or 280 AI that’s actually has rifles and components available. It’s like a more balanced rem mag that you don’t need a custom chamber for in a better cartridge design. So I can’t wrap my head around the knocks against it. Knock Hornady box velocity all you want but that’s not the cartridge design fault
@@MilwaukeeDillPickles you clearly don’t understand 7 rem mag. A fully formed case is 88 grains of water. The saami free bore is longer than you think. It’s .115, the tightness of the free bore is still tighter than what FClass runs in their rifles. A properly loaded 7 mag can push a 195 up to 3000 fps in a 26” barrel with less pressure than a PRC. While the 7 mag can out perform it. It’s doing it with 3000 less pressure. You clearly have no long knowledge of a 7 rem mag. Also getting 3036 with a 7 rem mag 22” with a 175. Sorry not sorry. PRC is marketing hype and a big let down. FYI plenty of 280 AI out there
@@SpudOutdoors I’m not going to argue with any of that as I was comparing the PRC to a 7 SAUM. I wouldn’t consider a rem mag personally.
If your insecurities about the rem mag are being threatened by Hornadys marketing team take it up with them
@@MilwaukeeDillPickles not threatened. Annoyed; nothing I hate more than having 0 integrity. And why did you even bring up the 7 saum it’s not really comparable. It’s the best cartridge for 7mm when it comes to accuracy. It will lack on the speed department.
And the main reason it’s ticks people off is the materials for 7 mag is very reasonable but if more manufacturers drop the cartridge it affects 10s of thousands of people who currently load for it. So yes it directly affects the people who use it and enjoy the performance it gives with great materials we have.
Well done video- there need to be more guys out there doing stuff like this to call out the manufactures on them trying to “accuse” The hunting community of not being smart enough to figure this out. Also, the reason I reload all of my Precision stuff- 👌🏻
You are going to piss them off.good for you !coming from a loyal 7 mag owner!,,
Jim, I just did something similar w 6.5CM in a Cross vs 6.5CM in a 24” Tikka. For me the Federal Terminal Ascent 130 Gr won in both rifles. I got 2725 in the 18” Cross from 2800 fps on the box and the Tikka got 2820. As for 6.5PRC, for both Hornady 147 Match and 143 ELD-X I am getting box Velo out of my Christensen 24”. Over the total loads tested all others were well under factory box numbers. Good vid
I would disagree on his 6.5 Creed. Vs 6.5 PRC because he used different barrel lengths than advertised. I agree with needing proper barrel length to get proper performance from the 6.5 PRC and hand loading. Truth is you will still only get 200ish fps in the PRC but makes a great cow elk gun.
That was the whole point.
@@JimHarmer love your content Jim
Good info , in my reloading experience doing ladder tests of 0.5gr I have seen as high as 133fps jump in 1grain of powder . Different rifles will have different 'nodes ' . Yet 200fps is strange
🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
About time we all woke up to this
I love my Browning Hells Canyon in 6.8 western 🇦🇺🇦🇺
Very interesting. I have noticed that folk are not seeing much advantage with the 7 PRC over the 7 RemMag.
And I have followed some other guntubers with 6.5 PRC who are not getting much more than typical Creed velocities. Thank you.
I guess those 7 PRC ballistics were just too good to be true. I shoot a 7mm rem mag and the 7 PRC on paper gains about 200 yards of range energy wise over the 7 mag whether it be 1000 ft-lbs for deer or 1500 ft-lbs for elk. I went to hornady's ballistic calculator and compared the precision hunter 162 eldx in a 7 mag with the 175 eldx in the 7 PRC, and I changed the velocity of the 7 PRC down to 2800. Now the ballistics are almost identical! I wonder how accurate their velocity is on the precision hunter 162 eldx for the 7 mag? If it is accurate, there really isn't much advantage for the 7 PRC over the 7 mag. The numbers from hornady for the 7PRC were showing a significant advantage for the 7 PRC over the 7 mag. How inaccurate are the BC's? Forget the 6.8 western. If this is true, long live the 7 mag! Now if I can just get it to shoot MOA...
Go buy a 6.8 Western- you’ll never look back
I have the 6.8 and 7 PRC. When I was chronographing then I saw the 7 was way slower than advertised. It’s a great cartridge. I’m a fan of all new cartridges but the 6.8 Western just checks more boxes for me. I really like the lighter recoil from the 6.8 Western. I’m loading the 170 Berger over Mag Pro and I’m less than max getting 2987 average with a SD of 2.3. I am hearing of many new components coming to the market for the 6.8 Western. Thanks for your videos, they are honest and very informative
Im about to work up a load with 170 Bergers and Magpro. How do you like the Magpro? Has you noticed any temperature sensitivity with it?
I haven’t seen enough to worry about. I’ve been shooting from 40 degrees to the mid eighties and haven’t seen any difference out to 500. I really do not believe the newer Mag Pro is as temp sensitive as it was in the past. I’m using these loads for hunting and I don’t shoot much over 350 unless the conditions are perfect. If you’re in that scenario then I believe you will be more than fine. I’ve recently been loading a lot with the Ramshot Grand and it has proven to be a really good powder for the 6.8 Western
@@mitchjohnson7715 thanks for the info. I’m in south Texas and our weather during hunting season is very inconsistent. It can get really cold, but usually doesn’t last long and be right back up to 70+. Are you loading your 170’s at SAAMI length?
I live in Florida so I beer we have about the same temps. I started at mag length and went down 20 thou increments till I found a load. Don’t be scared to have a lot of jump. Customer service at Berger is unmatched! Call them if you have any problems or questions, they will gladly help you out.
You will almost never get more velocity just because you are higher in elevation. The elevation, and a few other factors, lessen the drag on the bullet as it flies and gains you free ballistics at distance but not at the muzzle.
100 percent true... after 600m the prc will drop less and honestly the 6.5prc and 7mmprc are like a 20in diff at 1k yds....just buy the 6.5 prc. The western is just expensive only 2 ammo carriers
I think that 7prc has more potential for reloading than 6.8 western, and I feel like the roll out was slow for the 6.8, giving more longevity to the 7 in comparison. But if 6.8 gets more steam, it'll definitely be more interesting to casual shooters than owning a recently standardized wildcat like it is now.
I learned the barrel length lesson when I tried to upgrade from a 24” barrel on a 308 to a 22” barrel on a 30-06 and got the exact same velocity.
You know who doesn't cheat, Weatherby...
Weatherby ammo.out of weatherby gun is pretty much bang on MV
Yeah I think some of this discrepancy might be due to the chamber being looser than what they used to test at the factory, a tighter chamber or rather a case that is better fit to the chamber should yield higher velocity and if weatherby is making their ammo to match with how they cut their chambers then you should see the advertised speeds, most gun companies use very loose chambers to work with all kinds of fucked up factory ammo.
Well they better fuckin not at pretty much 5 bucks per round..
And Howa is Weatherby :), I think..
My 300wby shoots about 100 fps slower than the box advertises but it's 24" which handicaps it slightly. But yes it's good ammo. Good es and SD as well. Much better than some ammo companies for sure
@@vicbittertoo no Howa is Howa. They manufacture the barreled actions for the vanguard line for Weatherby. The vanguard is a better fit and finish then the Howa 1500 and is assembled by Weatherby.
I had similar conversations a few weeks ago about the 22 ARC and the new 22 creedmore
Even happier now that I bought a 6.8 western last year. I stopped buying hornady products after they refused to support the caliber. If they’re telling me to pound sand because I didn’t buy just one of their products then I guess I’ll buy from other places
I just want to add that twist rate matters as much as barrel length.
There are a lot of shooters out there who don't seem to understand that stability is not binary. It is on a spectrum. There is a lot of math that goes into it, but some external ballistics calculators will give you a Stability Factor calculation if you input the correct data.
Imagine a line running lengthwise through the center of mass of your bullet. In an optimally stabilized bullet, that line will go directly through the tip of the projectile, and the tip will be static on the line such that it presents the smallest possible cross section to the air, perpendicular to its vector in flight. It is however possible to be stabilized for good accuracy but marginally for proper flight characteristics. In a marginally stabilized projectile, the tip traces small circles around the line traveling through its center of mass. Even a slight amount of wobble presents more area perpendicular to the projectile's vector in flight, lowering BC, and increasing drag.
When a manufacturer like Hornady goes through the work to publish accurate BCs, they also provide a recommended twist rate. This is because twist rate directly affects BC, and without the proper twist rate, you will not achieve optimal stabilization necessary for the published ballistic coefficient.
You may get good accuracy with a marginally stabilized projectile. But as you stretch it out, you will notice your drop figures are off. This isn't your external ballistics calculator, or even the bullet manufacturer lying to you. You need to have a fast enough twist rate to achieve optimal stabilization if you want optimal BC. Like barrel length matters to velocity, barrel twist matters to BC.
Hornady also lies about twist rate. They claim you need a 1in8 twist to shoot the 180 gr ELD-M in 7mm. Berger says you only need a 1in9 twist to shoot the 195 gr EOL which is actually a much longer bullet than the 180 ELD-M. Sorry I trust Berger a whole lot more than Hornady. My personal tests with twist rate also show that Berger is right.
You can shoot the 180 in a 9 twist.
@ReloadingWeatherby So, in other words, you didn't watch the video and have never consulted Hornady's reference, but rather choose to have strongly held opinions about that which you remain willfully ignorant?
As shown in the video, independent testing shows Hornady has the most accurate publicized BCs. It seems kind of foolish to assume they go through the effort to publish accurate BCs, but not to provide the best possible data on how to achieve these BCs. In fact, Hornady does show their work. They have expanded BCs published from their work at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in which they show the modified BCs for their bullets at different Mach numbers and twist rates. With an 8.75 twist, that 180 gr ELD-M has a Mach 2.25 G7 BC of .391. With a 7.5 twist, that same bullet has a Mach 2.25 G7 BC of .411. So when Hornady recommends an 8 twist or faster, it is because they have done the work, showed the work, and have the receipts. If you choose to ignore it, that is your problem. But Hornady goes to great lengths to provide their customers with accurate data.
Secondly, have you ever used Berger's stability calculator? If you punch that 195 gr out of a 9 twist, it is marginally stabilized, and they have a warning saying it might shoot good groups, but the BC will be compromised. Then they list alternative bullets they offer that will be more stable in a 9 twist. So even Berger says you're full of shit.
Finally, Strelok Pro calculates a JBM Stability Factor for a given bullet and twist rate, at given atmospheric conditions. It also says the 195 gr Berger is marginally stable at 9 twist. In fact, a 1.3 is even on the low end of marginal. Punch it through an 8 twist and you get a pretty much ideal 1.65. So Hornady, Berger, and multiple third party independent sources still suggest both of those bullets are maeginal at 9 twist but ideal at 8 twist. How are you going to claim you believe Berger more when you haven't even actually consulted Berger? They have the resources right on their website. You don't even have to call them. Just select the bullet, input a velocity, modify atmospheric conditions if you want, and press go. If you had taken 15 seconds to make use of the resources they provide, you wouldn't look so silly now...
@beavismagnum Nobody says you can't shoot it. You just won't get the publicized BC. Again, they have expanded BC data available showing the reduction of BC in that exact bullet going from a 7.5 twist to a 8.75 twist. Hornady shows their work, and the data is pretty clear.
@@MTMILITIAMAN7.62 I bet you didn't know that Hornady themselves just lowered the b.c. of the 180 ELD-M. As for the Berger... go look at the 195 gr EOL spec sheet. Berger says 1in9 twist. Seems they have some conflicting info on their website.
I had been looking at getting a 7 PRC, however from what I have been learning about Hornady's factory load (one of the few for that chambering) it has me reconsidering tried and true calibers like the 300 win mag. It is one thing to have to change powders unexpectedly due to supply chain issues. It is something else entirely to keep claiming the offering performs at levels it simply doesn't. I get that they are worried about getting customers on board early with the 7 PRC because if they don't it will only ever do 6.8 Western levels of business. That is really bad considering that 6.8 Western seems to be on life support in terms of sales and manufacturer willingness to make factory loads.
6.8 western deserves more love. I think in time people will start to appreciate how versatile and efficient it is.
What I have been telling folks for years. A lot of the industries whiz bang velocities quoted are out of a 30" pressure barrel, not a 20-22" hunting rifle barrel. I shoot the 6.5x284 our of a long action with 24" barrel, the long action so I can seat the bullet out and not take up case capacity and outrun a 6.5prc all day long. And accuracy is second to none. Thanks for exposing the shady side of the industry.
Thanks for sharing #savethe6.8Western !
My results, Browning X-Bolt Hell's Canyon Speed 24" barrel in 7mm PRC: Hornady Precision Hunter ELD-X 175 gr, average 2703 fps. Federal Premium ELD-X 175 gr, average 2945 fps. Temp approximately 58 degrees at an altitude of 550ft.
Get the Browning hells canyon in the 6.8 Western
You will not be disappointed 😊 🇦🇺
Now that's the kind of data I like to see. I'm going to try a test of my own. 6.5PRC vs 6.5CM
I like the idea of the 7 PRC. I like the tight chamber reamer tolerances and the beltless case, etc. But any case works. Capacity is what matters. There is no magic shoulder angle or case shape that produces higher velocities. This velocity disparity reminds me of the 264 WM, which had a claimed velocity of 3200 fps, but in most guns didn't get past 3000 fps with Winchester 140 gr factory ammo.
6.5 cm and 6.5 prc are the same cartridge… if you chop 4 inches off the prc barrel
Maybe I shouldn't buy a new 7PRC rifle for a upcoming hunt 🤔
I'll sell ya my brand new one ... Haha!
6.8 western, 280ackley, 7RMag all great alternatives but you won’t get the “cool kid on the block” vibes from your hunting buddies.
7prc appears to be inflated.
Buy a fast twist 7 mag Remington alpha 1 or a browning fast twist xbolt or xbolt 2 and have 3.6” in the mag for browning and 3.9” in the mag for Remington alpha 1. Fully form brass to the chamber and you can shoot a softer load that exceeds the PRC with less pressure.
Just use one that you've already got.
It’s critical that you consistently place the radar in the same position and angle to the boreline. Variations in angle and distance from the bore will deliver different results!
Crazy about the Hornsby 7PRC. Looks like their desire to kill off 6.8 Western put them down a dark path of lies and deception. Those are pretty unimpressive numbers for the case size. My 20” barrel 300WSM averages 2850fps with 200gr Federal Terminal Ascent.
Hornady have been lying for long before the 7 PRC
I have a 6.5prc with 24" barrel that shoots 140-147gr factory bullets at 2700-2782. My ar10 6.5 creedmoor with a 22" barrel and handloads shoots the same velocities. This is frustrating to me because I wasn't planning on reloading the prc until next year. Looks like I'm going to have to since I bought it for deer/elk hunting.
Huge video. Very important. I love Hornady and will use several of their reloading dies and other products, but this video saved me a LOT of money. I have a very accurate 270 Win that produces very good velocities. Probably going to pass on the 7mm PRC for now.
everyone had a 30 06 so they had to come up with gimmicks to get you to give them your hard earned money
Yep and the 30-06 is still better than these fads.
I would maybe add, SOMETIMES the different cartridge option means different barrel twists and throats that work better for heavy for caliber bullets, off the shelf.
South African hand loader here. I recently bought myself a 7mm Rem Mag and I'm using the 162gr ELD-X from Hornady. The G1 BC value for this bullet is supposed to be 0.630. When I used the Trajectory Validation in Strelok a couple of weeks ago (did it out at 500m) my new BC according Strelok is 0.493! That's 21.75% less than what they say it is.. Make with that what you will but this is quite a big difference! With my 6.5 Creed and 243 Win (also using Hornady ammo), Strelok was always near perfectly accurate with the elevation adjustments. But when I got my 7mm I was finding that I'm always a few clicks low (especially out beyond 350m). After the Trajectory Validation and the new BC, it's pretty dead on now.
*Edit* For interest, I did the trajectory validation on the 6.5 Creed as well. For this I'm using the 130gr ELD Match bullet from Hornady. Also at 500m. The stated G1 BC is 0.554. After truing the new BC is 0.479. That's 13.54% less. So it seems to confirm what Jim is saying, with Match bullets they're being more honest.
Tires ain't the size they claim, the mpg displayed on dash is never right, trucks can't tow/haul advertised #'s unless 2wd reg cab. Gofigure big companies are full of chit.
Glad this was explained. I'm not rich by any means but I finally saved up to get a decent gun and went with a 7mm PRC. After testing round after round, best I could get was just shy of 2800fps. I'm quite disappointed as I was hoping this would be the way to go. I'm gonna reload some here soon as soon as my powder comes in and see if it changes at all. Thanks backfire for your honesty
Try the Federal ammo
Excellent job sir, we appreciate your work. I have a suggestion for a video for you. Pull 3-5 rounds apart from the same box of ammo, and weigh the difference in the powder charge. This will answer some questions of why there are some flyers in factory ammo
Hornady should start making 6.8 Western now if they have so much confidence in the 7PRC..
Do they test the ammo at the factory out of a 24" barrel?
Hornady, very proudly, exclaimed in their 7 prc was tested with 24" barrels
It's the generally accepted standard. Exceptions for a few military cartridges and ones specifically designed for shorter barrels
@@mattcomchoc2957that’s what I like about 300 blackout. Most box numbers are with 16” barrels. Even then you can get faster velocities out of a 16” barrel than what the box states. It’s really just convenient for subsonic rounds. You can know for a fact your 16” barrel will keep them subsonic but for other calibers you never really know at what barrel length the subs will go super
Wow….great video and very informative, eye opening to say the least 👍
Jim, Hornady ain't gone like you now! it marketing bull crap. if you tell a child he is dumb all the time, the child will actually believe he dumb. that is what Hornady is doing to uninformed consumers. great job in proving the point !
When I shot the Hornady ELDX it was a lot slower than advertised also. Very close to what your results were. However, when shooting the Federal ELDX velocities were very close to and even just a bit faster than advertised. The Federal load was also more accurate than the Hornady load. I am also shooting Federal 170gr Terminal Ascent and velocities are between 2973 and 3007 out of my rifle. BTW my rifle has a 24" barrel.
So the moral of the story, get a 308 win as it takes a lot to surpass it and save money
Depends what you're doing with it. .308 has some shortcomings, just like every cartridge. If you're a hunter, you're unlikely to need much else, because it has cheap, available ammo and a wide range of projectiles that can take it from varmint territory up to big game. But if you're into long range shooting, particularly if you shoot competitively, the new cartridges with the long thin bullets are where it's at. Also 30.06 is arguably even more versatile than .308, especially as you can get a bit higher performance from it, so it can cover all the things .308 can do and then some. But really, the new cartridges, despite all the marketing BS and hype, are in fact better technology than these older cartridges. If you reload, it doesn't matter anyway, you choose the best for your purposes, and the cost of the ammo isn't really that much different.
7mm rem mag looks even better now
Congratulations Jim🎉
Hornady 6.5 creed precision hunter is also 100 fps slower in a 24' barrel and 150 fps slower in a 22' barrel
I understand what you mean about the barrel length effecting ammo performance. But i disagree with the statement that 6.5cm and 6.5prc are the same. Clearly they perform differently if used in the same rifle specs. And i may have missed it but were the bullet weights the same?
Oh, this is changing my mind on 7MM PRC....
I stay with the Originals: 6,5x47, 6,5-284, 270 win, 7mm rem mag and several others.
6.5 PRC handloaded with Reloder 26 and Hornady data gets the book numbers! I get 3150fps in my savage ultralight carbon barrel with the Hornady 143 PRC and 142 Accubond LR. No pressure signs and shoots true .75MOA. My last mule deer and 2 whitetail were with this load and dropped similar to the lightning bolt that is the 257 Weatherby!
I load for my sons 6.5 Creedmoor as well. No slouch, but the 6.5 PRC needs to be handloaded and it is amazing!
with Hornady loading the 7 PRC with Staball HD its not going to have the speeds as it did when they tested it with the RL26, and i believe the advertised MV printed on the boxes were based on the initial testing with RL26. in trying to get as close to published MV Hornady has pushed the charge weight to over 100% in many of the lots of ammo they have been sending out causing a number of issues from basic inconsistences in MV and POI to blown primers
because i do reload i have 175g ABLR zipping along at the 3100 fps mark as well as 177 Hammer Hunters (now the 170 HHTs) both loads use ADG and Peterson brass with either BR2 or 210M LR primers and i can get the same MV and POI with either RL26 or N565
26" barrel shooting suppressed as well