This episode was recorded on 30th May 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-tank-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265
i like Bogue idea but instead of 1 flex player i would chose 2 (1 tank/1 dps/1 support/ 2 flex players) ofc under assumption that it would be balanced like moba, tanks is survive for a long time and low dps/cc, supports has less dmg or weaker utility/limited healing
@@jaysonmcknight6044hes also just kind of stupid. Hes been masters/diamond for 8 years, and thats part of his job. He doesnt comprehend overwatch over masters.
@@ludwigvanbeethoven8164 not trying to defend Freedo specifically here, but as a Master or even diamond, you can still have a understanding of the game above, but you lack the mechanical skill to reach that far. 'Knowing' the game and how it works can get you to Masters, but you still need aim/mechanical skill to be able to hang in GM and above. This was also the case back in OW1 when Masters arguably was what GM is now.
@@hexia6760 No in Overwatch 1 as a person who was a diamond for 1 year...then masters for 1 year...then low grandmasters for 1.5 years (4000-4200)....then a 4600 player for 2 years...every single step I learned more, even though i was nerding out more diamond and masters, i didnt know the game, even though u thought I did. Yes. My mechanics did get better, but I was a support player. It also doesn't help that I believe, and I truly believe this, now after seeing Freedo talk about overwatch for the past year is that he does NOT speak in good faith. His opinions are so bad, and his demeanor is so gross, I don't believe he's in it "in bona fide". Edit: It's not to say that I didn't know how the game worked in diamond, BUT, I didn't know the crucial details and my opinions about things were wrong about certain things.
This was when bogur was trying to cook up his own take you ppl are unhinged these ppl are strangers to you omfg stop projecting your hatred on to others
Freedo telling the others to put their crazy ideas to a different game because he wants to play his game is crazy condescending especially when they're specifically in a segment about bringing up ideas in their "safe space". Like bruh c'mon now
Specially when you are The worst player on the call, I used to like his content when it was about overwatch new and events, instead of pretending he understands The game, saying shit like "junkrat id lowkey broken", a character that hasnt been player basically for 5 seasons
I think this comment is dumb because all Freedo did was tell his own opinion about what he would like this game to be and after Flats' rant Freedo recognized that his opinion isn't necessarily the healthiest for the game. Also I really like how Freedo acknowledged that everyone can't always have what they want which I see rarely from someone who isn't getting what they want. Huge Freedo W
@@ArttuMoisanderThe issue, you bot, is that he’s speaking out his ass. So others can express their opinion more freely than he can because they’re backed by actual facts
Okay I watched this baked out of my mind and this is what I noticed: SVB trying to rein in Freedo had me geeking. There was one moment where Flats looked very irritated with Freedo, Bogur was completely disinterested/eyes glazed over, and Danteh is 100% looking at Discord or something and not paying attention. Meanwhile Freedo just rants. Freedo released a very divisive video yesterday, so it’s fresh on his mind. I get having him on but it seemed inevitable a long rant was coming (he completely ignored the question lol). That being said after Flats’ A+ tier rant on why they constantly gotta shuffle the game, the whole podcast got a lot better. Felt like everyone settled in, Freedo got more succinct, and Danteh/Bogur were more dialed in for the hero specific changes
@@KanggaxxThat contradiction was his entire point; you can’t really do both. PS: it’s interesting to note Flats’ point in mentioning it as well. He may not agree with 6v6 but there’s not much of a reason why it couldn’t at least be an option in the game.
Freedo starts talking and time slows to a crawl, this guy manages to ramble so much and for so long, yet says so little with each self-imposed rant he decides to go off on. MASSIVE killer of the pacing when everyone else gets their points across without sounding like they belong in an asylum. then Freedo just goes on and on and on about NOTHING.
Imo counter swap inspired game design has destroyed the concept of fulfilling a hero fantasy. You’re not much of a hero if you can’t overcome adversity and as soon as some one swaps to counter you, the fantasy has fallen apart and you now gotta play a completely different hero just to win. Or stay locked to play what you want and throw the game
@@michaels9595Well that’s because those players fundamentally are like sub humans trying to play a game. Obviously counterswapping won’t matter in SUPER low ranks. But now even in plat it matter
i LOVE how the arguement for 5v5 was que times and yet just got off a session were i waited a minimum of 8 minutes to play tank on a saturday night, PEAK hours. Every other role was 8 plus minutes and this was for a couple of hours. So 5v5 was for faster ques yet it ran off so much of the player base that ques times are just as long as 6v6.
Bro I've been experiencing 4-5 min queues on DPS for the last month and a half at the very least. It's actually ridiculous. And people just ignore it because it's their talking point. It's truly amazing how devs have managed to kill the role so much that with half the required tanks were almost back to the worst times of overwatch queue times wise.
Yeah the queues legit feel LONGER than in OW1 at times. And that's compared to a game that had no content updates for 3 YEARS and lackluster balance patches that came infrequently and were often criticized for taking the balance in the wrong direction (things like insane AOE healing sustain etc.)
@@spew42 They light made Tank unfun, so no one wants to solo Tank. That's the problem with 5v5 as a solution to queue times. It ignored the problem of not having fun as a Tank so having one Tank will just feel worse.
I don't know why they ever bring Freedo on this show. All he ever does is be condescending and rude, then be wrong about it anyway, and spit absolutely insane hot takes that are the most "I don't know how games work" opinions of all time.
Devs dont mention 6v6 because it was literally the ONLY tangible gameplay difference made outside the monetization model and they needed something to market to justify a sequel. Queue times were an issue and a convenient neutral justification, perhaps even a two birds one stone, but doesnt change the fact that moving to 5v5 was the only legitimate gameplay difference between OW1 and OW2 because they knew PvE was never happening.
Honestly Same. I'm scared of just making so much new stuff to artificially increase viewership but I understand what he's getting at when it comes to game relevance.
This is the reason that although the 6v6 debate feels like beating a dead horse, I'm ultimately okay with it. We need to continue to bring it up because the devs NEED to address this. They've had 1.5+ years to fix the game and all of the attempts they've made to fix the game haven't worked. 6v6 should at least be experimented with.
Funny how he always tells Samito things like how you have to go based off facts but reacts that way in the video, and even in Freedos newest video "debunking 6v6" about how Jeff Kaplan "wanted 1 tank”, he "references" an article and even says that he cannot find where it was said. But in one of biggest articles about role lock, they explicitly said they tried 1 tank but did not get good feedback from the tank players at all.
I think freedo is too far down the 5v5 6v6 rabbit hole and didn’t give much opinion how he would want the current game improved. I’d still prefer 6v6 tho
He talked about draft pick/bans stuff a long time ago and the devs/community never gave af, he said on this podcast he doesn't give his opinion on that cause he knows its not whats "better for the game overall", in the sense of most players would not like it or it would be less attractive to new audiences despite being more competitive, i think he sees it as a lost battle, so why keep hammering on it
@@wyvzrn he wasted the first hour or so of the podcast going on long patronizing rants never completing a single point. You could tel the other guests were uncomfortable and SVB had to make him wrap it up. He improved towards the end
@@ZzsiegzZ It’s probably because the tank discussion was inevitably going to go to the 6v6 discussion. It seems to me that Freedo was trying to speed up this process by subliminally alluding to it on most of his points. Flats finally got the hint and put the discussion to bed, and the pod moved into a more realistic discussion. Which is let’s move forward and not backwards. Freedo said we all have to sacrifice something for the game to progress. I personally loved open queue, but I got over it. You can even see the rest of the pod kind of liven up after they each put 6v6 to rest.
@@wyvzrnthe reason nobody would take this draft/ban system seriously is because it kills the soul and reason of the game. Overwatch is a hero shooter where you can SWAP AT ANY TIME (originally to any hero, now to only your role). His idea is so fucking ridiculous. Just go play dota, they have the draft system and it works. If at any point overwatch implements a ban or draft system it's gonna speedrun killing the game.
@@nycempirestate4689 I would argue it was only more realistic in the sense that people weren't so combative about whether it would "fix the game" or not. The problem I have with most content creators is that 6v6 doesn't _have_ to be the end-all-be-all in order to be healthier for the game. They keep saying to "move forward" with 5v5, but they all assume the format can keep players interested long-term, which it hasn't shown itself to do across a year-and-a-half with constant balance changes. 6v6 just works better for the game, and you can continue OW2 design by reworking Tanks there more in line with DPS and Support, as the latter was with DPS and Tank in OW2.
I personally don't want every topic to go back to 6v6 (even though I want 6v6 myself), but the format is so intrinsically tied to the issues of that game at the moment that you can't just not discuss it. It feels like in a lot of points they'll purposely avoid the 6v6 argument or disregard the legitimate points it has to not cause tension/they just are tired of hearing about it. And honestly, that's a bit immature.
@@eagerinspiritAlmost all of the problems now are in correlation without having another tank. You can cook the numbers of this game all you want with balances, characters etc but it will never replace an actual human playing beside you. The reason why having two tanks felt so good is that you had more control of the outcome of how your teammates played.
@jm0112 no, even in the open queue days there was a balance. Most games even if they started with 6 Winston's typically ended with a well rounded team.
Yeah Freedo was on something else ever since the last Freedo and Samito Podcast. He basically sounds like he's the Enlightened one and everything he says backed up by facts, even tho those facts have yet to be brought out.
I mean he is with bogur and flats, who have recently looking back fondly at ow1, and with Jake who seems to BE neutral on it, só maybe he was defensive or trying to "fix" their nostalgia
@@hexia6760The only reason he was angrier there is because Samito knows how to shift the flow of a debate. Flats and Bogur can get bitched sometimes but Samito doesn’t allow people to say whatever they want when they speak. And as he should
really loved hearing from danteh in this one! the pro perspective isn’t one we get often outside of casters and coaches like spilo and custa, so this was a cool addition. would love to see him on again
Get freedo off the debate group. Like why does he talk down on everyone that enjoyed 6v6 like if they are some idiots?? The same people that just want overwatch back to when it was at its peak and still considered one of the best fps years later instead of accepting this watered down bs. And for what, what’s the point of defending ow2?? Overwatch content on TH-cam now has so much more negativity, creators talking about the bad state of the game and reacting to other people’s criticism or bad balance patches. Back then there was at least lore videos, cinematic short reactions, hero guides, and overall healthier discussions compared to what we have nowadays.
@@jaysmi5467it's fine if there is different opinions but it needs to be someone who isn't going to insult peoples intelligence and be a dick about everything.
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 Bruh you said an NDA you've never read or heard of is why flats and bogur aren't 6v6 supporters. You literally made up facts about a mystically NDA to make your opinion correct. Please do not speak about facts when you're talking about NDAs
@@jaysmi5467 you've missed the point of the comment you're responding to. Either due to intellectual incompetence, emotional immaturity or intellectual dishonesty. None of which are a great look. No-one with even a semi-developed frontal cortex is going to complain about there being opposing views on the podcast, the issue is the condescending tone and inability to actually REPRESENT the opposing argument when arguing against it.
I love how the 6v6 topic was under the “crazy ideas” section. Flats was spitting facts and I felt his frustration, but he was being so honest with how he felt and what he’s observed. Amazing.
ong, every game of qp is so sweaty, even sweatier than comp. i havent played in a week since every time i play doom the other team counterswaps, and if we lose my team is screaming "tank diff", its really annoying
It sounded to me like Freedo just has played a lot of tank recently, have a lot of thoughts on different heroes and things he has discovered over the past few months that he wanted to share. Unfortunately, the others just weren't really interested in hearing his very personal thoughts and perceptions of each hero and how he discovered playing x can do this and playing y counters this etc. It seems that Bogur and Flats are both very tired of this version of the role and have a hard time finding their current gameplay loop enjoyable, so I imagine nothing could be as uninteresting to them as hearing someome go on a rant about niche hero interactions when all they want to discuss is big shakeups to make the role completely different from its current state.
It’s been Kiriko and Bap (Lucio and kind of Moira too) for so long as the best default choice which are the 3 supports I don’t enjoy playing. I usually play support but haven’t for a while. I miss Anna, Illari, Zen, Brig, Mercy and would love to finally be able to play LW. Support meta feeling pretty stale
Summer 2019 was peak overwatch. Jesus, what is freedo even doing here? He admits he wants to play a shooter type game, but he's basically too scared to go play an actual FPS like Valorant. He's the casual dork, who wants to just play cowboy and stand behind a shield while getting mercy beamed. Doesn't like MOBA game play, but still wants tanks and healers. Unfuckingreal.
Yeah I actually had a similar thought during one of Freedos rant during this episode where I went: "Does Freedo even like the idea of a hero shooter?" Like him complaining that in OW1 it was possible to win against cheaters because positioning and gamesense was king, is such a weird complaint. I always thought that was one of the greatest qualities of Overwatch as a *concept*. If I wanted a game that was just about clicking heads faster and with better accuracy than my enemies I could play literally any other FPS game in existence. It's only in Overwatch where I get to play a character that is a literal wrecking ball, dealing damage by slamming into enemies. (Ball could never have been released in OW2) Only in Overwatch do I get to play a monkey that doesn't have to aim, but needs to understand where to be at all times to be useful. Only in Overwatch can I play a wallriding DJ, always being there to help out my team, not with dealing damage, but by staying alive with complex movement to always give buffs to my team. etc etc. Hitting headshots in OW is up there as some of the most satisfying game feel/feedback ever, but not every character should be about hitting heads because "boohoo the game required too much thought for the average player, so let's strip it of its identity and just make it a generic shooter"
@@spew42 the problem is that then you can't reach wider audiences for a live service game. you launch ow2, people jump on it, get frustrated and leave. hell even i don't want 6v6 back because general solo que ranked experience was far worse and inconsistent.
@@musicxxa6678 I disagree. Where is the data that proves people would be frustrated with 6v6? Cos it definitely isn't OW1, since peoples frustrations were almost always tied to hero balance, and slow, misguided balance patches, not the format itself. Quite the opposite in fact: the end of 2020-start of 2021 the people playing were actually VERY happy with the state of the game ,but without more content releases coming, the game was destined to fizzle out. The wider general audience was not playing during that period. The vast majority of people who tried Overwatch before 2020 but didn't play afterwards never really even got to play Overwatch in it's most functional state ever. So I'm not convinced that your point stands.
Space is anti-attention. If your dps have the ability to take angles and move around without getting shot by 3 people, they have "space". If your ball is just sitting around doing nothing, and the second you show yourself you get shot by all 5 enemies, your ball isnt giving you "space". It can also be about how many abilities are being used on you vs the tank, who has the most ability to "tank" those abilities.
Its when you throw yourself at them and they use all their abilities and ults on you BC Ur annoying, then your team can take advantage of it by not going on and blaming u in chat
Man there has been a lot of tank debates lately. Almost as if the role is struggling the most cause of the format. But hey if Overlord of tanks Freedo says it fine it’s fine right?
People also don’t really talk about how lonely being a solo tank feels in game. It’s all on you, and unlike other games, support and dps don’t really work as a “partner”. I have played tank less than 10 times the past few months, but I’ve barely made it of the metal ranks in OW1. The idea of going back to that is depressing
That's the killer part for me. I can bear counterpicking as it's not happening every game, so at least sometimes I'll have a good time. And eating every cd is also bearable, because there are sometimes comps where there isn't that much shit to throw at you. But what you can't fix is being alone. It's boring, you fuck up and you're at the mercy of your support with immortality to save you, there isn't a player to just step Infront of you and help you while you're recharging your cooldowns or whatever, instead you just look at the wall and wait. And since you're frontlining you don't see your teammates ever. Feels like a single player experience to an extent. Enemies are just bots. You don't see your team. Like if I wanted a single player game I'd go play rdr2 or something, not overwatch.
If you not counterswap as a tank player, you get mass reported or have discussions with teammates. Thats a other really bad thing. I had my first silence on an alt account, just left team chat forever.
Even in quickplay. If you don't counterswap you get flamed. If you do counterswap, the enemies flame you. No matter what your teammates rarely swap with you. You're expected to be the winston that dives the widow, the rein that spearheads the front line, and the D.va that peels for your supports while tracer terrorizes your backline. Yet, by even trying you take up resources that should be used to get a pick. And it's entirely your fault for just wanting to play doomfist. You can't even learn tank heroes anymore because you get mass reported and flamed for not doing well in a quickplay game. :/
Tbh Overwatch has been out for more then 5 years, I started as a hog main & grinded out all tanks now my best r Winston/Ball, so if you cannot counterswap by now then you done nothing to improve ur hero pool & deserve to be flamed by ur team.
@@CGTradezCounterswapping doesn't take skill. You can train a monkey or even a crow to play rock paper scissors. It's that it is tiring, boring, and not fun for the majority of players. Not fun in a game. Games are supposed to be fun. That's the entire point.
@@dtg9k355 well if you want to see improvements & win more then u should be able to flex when needed, may not be the most popular opinion but it’s true. Grind out other tanks especially since some excel better then others in different maps
Please never let frito back on the podcast. He doesn’t actually say anything and what he does say is arrogant. He immediately shuts down discourse and acts like he is smarter than everyone in the room. Genuinely makes me angry to listen to
Freedo is the only guy there who doesn’t derail the conversations by speaking anecdotes for 3 minutes just to get a point across. This episode would literally be 60 minutes shorter and more enjoyable if Flats had to say his thing on a 1 minute stopwatch
This wannabe nostradamus act from freedo is getting so old man. The use of rhetorical devices to frame an argument as logical and based in evidence is one that's employed in "debate" as a game where people compete to see who's better at arguing, not one that's of any particular use when you're "debating" to actually find an answer or meaningful middle ground. He did the same thing in february and it was just as transparent. I just feel like it's really disingenuous given how charitably he's approached by basically everyone he discusses this with
I tried talking to him on X about how he says Baptiste and he went off on me. Dude talked town to me in a tweet and said being correct isn't important after getting defensive and lashing out bc I kindly let him know that some people might not appreciate the way he says it since he's not French, etc. He could've just ignored me but took the time out to make sure I knew he was better than I was.
@defaultdan7923 I just feel that Rein just isn't the gold standard of what a tank should be anymore in Overwatch 2, and he complains as if it should be and screw every other tank in the roster. My picks for Gold Standard would Sig and Winston. He sometimes overblown some changes to the game, especially in the practice range, where it looks bad. In reality, it's countered by this or in practice in a real game it's not all that bad/its irrelevant. I also don't like how rather than think of ways to improve a character, he says to "send them to the farm" and then forgets about them till they're relevant again.
@@noctisofrivia8778it does? have you played brig or against brig before? brig used to be anti dive now She literally dives with her ult and is unkillable. noone knows how to play brig in the avg ranks. she's the least picked support but is prob top 3 support rn. I've seen so many boosted brig players in Masters/GM and they get there, who are like gold on other roles.
I think we just need a day in the week where we have 12 content creators play the workshop code 7HSKW and after idk a month or 2 they can just debate what they like and dont like about it and we dont have the whole "Rose tinted Glasses" come back. We are playing 6v6 rn and a good amount of people enjoy that over the alternative. We dont have to look for the devs to "fix it so it works" fans have already done that to the best of their ability with a small sample size. Something like Emong Flats Eskay Karq Jay3 Seagul vs Bogur Freedo Wanted Samito ML7 Aspen Doesnt have to be them but thats an example.
@@Elizabeth68337 Lol, no problem! If I'm not mistaken the team behind Scrubclub Media are the ones posting it the most but I'm not 100% sure they are the ones behind it
And that's where the shill problem will rise. I remember samito messaging many creators live and all of them declined. It's not like their viewership is dependant on playing ranked, especially since that lobby would also be high ranked. They know that 6v6 is the topic to stay away from, and playing 6v6 is as bad as it can go for them.
They don't wanna use energy on something they think will never happen'. Though we did get a little 6v6 in this debate, I still know what you mean. If the devs make a comment on 6v6, and it isn't about it being 100% off the table, we'll get a 6v6 debate.
@@tyrantla7120Rework on Diva is a viable conversation to be had, if we consider 5v5 to be the end all be all. She needs to be reworked in order to function in this format, same with Zarya to some extend.
@@hexia6760yeah because it’s not like they already reworked ball, hog and orisa and look shit state the game is still in . Reworking dva and Zarya will do nothing in the long run.
@@hexia6760we’ve reworked too many heroes already and half of them have been failures. Enough is enough. If we have to rework the whole game to make 5v5 viable it’s clear there’s a problem with the current format causing issues that weren’t a problem for 6 years.
Yeah it's so intellectually dishonest. (or potentially intellectually incompetent, but I don't think Freedo is lacking in smarts, I just think his ego/emotions get the better of him and he ends up arguing in bad faith as an emotional reaction to the worst takes from the 6v6 camp. Like he develops this personal mission of proving 6v6ers wrong because some of them constantly accuse him of being a shill etc.)
The WHOLE crux of this whole conversation is the problem that 5v5 was tacked onto OW1 instead of a game developed from scratch with a 5v5 design in mind. Like instead of Blizzard having sat there and abandoned OW1 to developed a PVE and waste 2 to 3 years and they actually had a future game design in 5v5 and spent those 3 years with that in mind Im sure ow2 would be in a waaaay better state. But we are stuck with the ghost of 6v6 with 5v5 screw onto the side and we as a game community are stuck having to go through all the growing pains as the developers try to make this work. And after going through this for 2 years, i think it safe to say that as a community we are just done waiting.
I will be honest, Bogur's take on comunity behaviour towards tanks is the ONLY reason I would be down to 6v6, being the only tank makes it a hellish experience in lower elos
Like he said a tank can play almost perfectly still be flamed for one mistake. I had a game like that yesterday. I have a junk that was complaining about me when I was 17 and 4 on sigma yet he was 1 and 12 on junkrat. I had twice the dmg mitigation as the other teams sigma yet he flamed me in match chat. The one surprising thing was the whole enemy team started flaming him during end of match telling him it wasn't my fault then endorsed me. Shows there are some in the community but like Bogur says there is always a bonerfart64.
Bro I had a guy message me on Xbox calling me a loser after winning a NO LIMITS match. I was on Hog and he was on soldier shooting me the entire game and had basically no eliminations.
devs need to nut up and say something about 6v6, SAY SOMTHING! ANYTHING! I also agree with Flats. Updates are way to slow. Its almost been 2 years and weve hardly gotten any maps, "reworks" take 7 months to barely change the hero and balance is stale.
Arron Keller did a few months back. He told the 6v6 people “that nostalgia is one hell of a drug”. That made me lose all respect for him despite people like flats or samito saying he’s a good guy. You know what?! Copium is a far worse drug Arron.
@@ziggy2metalx720wasn't that the executive producer Jared neuss and it was just a twitter reply? They need to have a video talking about 6v6, or at least a blog post. Whatever the dev commented is highly irrelevant as it could just be virtue signaling.
@@garikek both really. Also notice how when Jared neuss comes to a stream to talk about the game, most of the time it’s going to be something negative or something to disappoint the fans
Freedo first complaint that players mentality is what he hates, is wild, no matter what the devs do in this 5v5 format, with 1 tank they will always get more blame than the other roles. The community is not going to change in the way he wants, its only going to get farther from his ideals
You are exactly who he’s referring to. Not a single solution in this big ass comment just reeee go back to 6v6 like bro we heard that take already we are looking for new ones 🙄
@@jaysmi5467as long as tank isn’t fun to play, 5v5 will never the answer. if the devs can find a way to make tank fun without taking away from the other roles, there is hope. However, we’re in season 10 going on season 11. It’s about time we stop pretending it’s possible for them in this format. it’s easier to make a better game by going to 6v6 and work on the problems that it has, especially with this new and better dev team and no bobby kotick. That why people want 6v6, because if overwatch has any chance of being a great game, it’ll be in the 6v6 format
@@itsTKParkerThat's the thing, they keep buffing tank hp and sustain over and over and over. Why is Junker queen fun to play? Because she has a slim hitbox, her A-D spam manipilates her head hitbox to make it hard to hit her head, and she has a movement ability that can be used offensively, defensively and to further dodge incoming damage with good mobility. Why is she fun to play against? Because she has a low max health pool, so if you are good enough to hit her, even when she dodges, she is killable. This also has other positives. She takes less time to heal to full, so supports don't have to pump as much healing into her. She is less likely to be hit, so it feels better for the queen since she is not consistantly drilled with damage and cc. It feels worse to shoot ar her with hard-to-hit weapons and cooldowns than shooting it at a big tank since you are more likely to miss and players love to get the hitmarker sounds. But when players do manage to hit those things, it feels more rewarding since it takes out more of her health percentage. It feels worse psychologically to spam randomly at the junker queen, but it feels better psychologically if you actually hit your shots on her. And that's just a tiny fraction of how tanks could be designed to better fit into the game.
@@jaysmi5467ironically Spilo and Samito just had an hour long conversation about 5v5 vs 6v6 that was much more productive than this one. I think hero design factors so much into this game and the biggest misconception around this conversation is that anyone involved wants OW1 back at all to be honest. The toxicity around even _having the conversation of 6v6 back at all_ *really* stands out to a majority of casual players who would be more than okay with just _having more options in the game_ ; *I’ve seen it in these comments all the time.* It’s the easiest solution to retain interest in the game and we’re too afraid of one format somehow being dominant over the other to even do it without destroying queue times while OW2 also allegedly has this thriving player base that 5v5 has single-handedly maintained, etc. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever. At this point, 6v6 should be implemented out of pure spite for a playerbase so bitter to change that its devs couldn’t just nerf healing without adding bigger bullets and a role passive as compensation. The only ones not offering solutions are people like you that don’t even want to have this conversation. Go to Sam’s video and stop bitching here.
@@jaysmi5467 And you'd be the same person who would probably says "But 6v6 means double shield" or "6v6 means longer queue times" without thinking through it. The reason you are hearing the "6v6" take more is because people are tired of tanking in this game and they remember a time where they liked tanking (including myself). And ofcourse people blame tank more, because every mistake is HUGE. So it is more noticeable and loses the game more which isn't the tank players fault, however it is the design of OW2 which puts so much pressure on 1 person to make all the correct decisions and no wrong ones. And this is why there are more stomps, whichever tank makes the less mistakes win (no matter how minor the mistake) which feels like shit for EVERYONE. And I don't think you suggested any ways to fix this problem either, so why don't you make a comment which brings a solution instead of complaining about a comment with no solution. Solution: 6v6. Revert health changes back to OW1. Remove general role passives (the selfheal change is debatable however) Rammatra block does less mitigation. Mauga Overdrive only affects himself. Queen's Shout only gives her the extra health (still gives team speed). Hog, revert back to OW1 and remove damage reduction on vape and people get full ult charge when shooting him. Doom, keep as tank. Orisa, keep the same but make fortify headshot-able. Reinhardt, revert but keep the pin cancel. Zarya, revert. Sigma, no HP gain on grasp. Winston, you could keep his secondary fire but reverting him is fine too. Ball, revert. Dva, revert Defence Matrix. Sombra, stay the same. Mcree, revert. Bastion, revert. Mei, stay the same. Lifeweaver, his pull need to be a projectile skillshot OR it doesn't make you invulnerable. Bap, make lamp stay up for 1 second so it requires timing but revert his self heal (shift) back. Kiriko, just remove the invulnerability half of suzu (keep the cleanse). Brig, is a tough one (Maybe make inspire only proc during Rally but buff health pack to compensate?). Illari, maybe if you'd revert her to the first Illari iteration (due to having two tanks Illari might struggle with putting attention into both while also shooting her primary. Ofcourse OW needs more precise changes (CD numbers, damage numbers, healing numbers, health numbers & health/armour ratio for new tanks, etc.) but they are impossible for anyone to do without being able to change the game and see for themselves. And I might have missed some heroes who also need changing but I think I covered the more problematic ones.
Freedo is the definition of overcooked, he's constantly arguing a point that isn't even being discussed, is constantly deflecting what is being talked about, yaps on and on about nothing points, and uses his own biases to bring up an "objective" point while slandering everyone else who doesn't think the same. bro needs to go on a vacation, especially after playing 1000 games of tank - maybe that's why he's overcooked, because the gameplay is awful and will literally drive you crazy
@@kingvalor8265 bro doom has 1 CC! 1!! I swear y’all act like he’s pausing the game for 3 minutes just because someone picks him. Meanwhile Orisa has anti CC, a push matrix and a long distance doom punch but I guess that’s perfectly ok? Actual insanity
Obviously, as freedo says, instead of playing the hero you enjoy you need to counter swap off death. Guys remember this is a game. It isn't meant to be fun. You're not allowed to have fun. Only the dps and supports are. They can 1 trick the worst heroes in the game like junkrat and still get value. But if you want to 1 trick doomfist you need to be better than Quaked or hope you're in a dive meta.
@@gerharddamm5933 hang on hang on, slam and ult also slows, but I get your point. Honestly the issue with Orisa isn't the ability in a vacuum, it's the fact she can cycle them pretty well and just exist and hold a position for a ridiculously long time. Javelin alone is alright to play against (maybe they need to change up the hitboxes on it a little bit) but it's moreso she can javelin you, then stuff you onto a corner with spin, then when she's hit with any form of CC or gets low enough, fortify to get out. (or some other variation of that CD rotation). However, the reason Orisa needs these busted cooldowns to remain somewhat relevant is that she has zero other options. Even RIENHARDT can use his pin to fly around the map and hell, even take control of a flank if he so wishes. Orisa is way too slow for any of that, and so especially at higher levels of play, she tends to get blasted from all sides because she can't really do anything other than live on main TLDR; Orisa having all of that is NOT fine, but she HAS to have those abilities because she can't do anything else. A much more flexible, mobile, smaller (and certainly more skillful) tank like Doom can't have too many CD's or CC negation because he simply CAN do more than Orisa in positioning and playmaking, and giving him more will just make him much too powerful in the right hands
As a gold tank I think I hate maps like Dorado cause I see the enemy on high ground and we're not good or coordinated enough to get them off. And I'm not smart enough to adapt in time
As a winston main (not a one trick) I love dorado. Winston is insane on maps like dorado and watchpoint, there's a lot of high ground he can take advantage of.
dorado used to be loved in OW1 but we had to tanks one could contest high ground the other can contest low ground or do something else and they could cycle between each other now theres one tank so thats not a thing any more
As a tank on Dorado specifically if you play play or doom or someone who can get behind there team and knock them off the highground into your team of piranhas
You guys need to just talk about 5v5 and 6v6, it’s frustrating that the whole community on every post is screaming about it, the devs are IGNORING IT, and you guys just keep claiming you don’t want to talk about it?? It’s kind of telling when you have the whole community screaming for 6v6 back while 5 new ability type shooters come out. 6v6 would breathe oxygen into the Overwatch community, playing the new heroes and maps with 6v6 is enough to keep players playing for years just like OW1!!! Who would’ve thought!!! The biggest mistake blizzard made was to get rid of OW1
I genuinely think the devs need to talk about 6v6. Lets be honest the real reason they switched to 5v5 was because they needed a reason to change overwatch significantly, anything else that happened because of it was just conveniently happening. If you genuinely think they did it for queue times then you are an idiot, they simply needed to UPDATE the game and continue releasing content. Double shield could have also easily been fixed with a sigma and orisa rework plus some extra changes to shields like diminishing returns on using 2 shields at once or something idk like they got weaker if used near each other or shields are nerfed across the board. Either way, with pve cancelled and the game doing decently well in terms of playerbase they just need to tell people 6v6 isnt happening. Every reason for them making overwatch 2 a sequel is completely gone. How people dont see it was a shitty marketing tactic that they’re trying to make work is beyond me. I do think they genuinely tried to make the game 5v5 but the game was ridiculously rushedZ Now the team is stuck between releasing content regularly and actually trying to make 5v5 work since they didn’t do enough fundamental changes when the game released. Barely any significant reworks, they reworks they did do did absolutely nothing. No map changes, they are slowly doing them. The game was an unfinished, ridiculous mess that shouldn’t have happened when it did. Also these high level players keep talking about queue timed when rhat only affected 1% of the FUCKING playerbase. Do these guys really think the devs made such monumental changes to the game so that a small percentage of their players get into games like 10-20 min quicker? I really dont think so
True. But there's also a question whether addressing the format argument is worth it for the devs. I feel like it would be such a big topic if they were to put out a blog post saying "nah, we ain't doing 6v6, it's old and trash". Just imagine all the videos, posts and shit. Feels like they're not talking about it to not cause anything bad, like real bad. Like when everyone was hella mad about pve being cancelled. I couldn't clear my feed off all those TH-cam videos for weeks. But it's also true that the topic, if left unaddressed by devs, would only grow bigger, as we've seen for the last 8 months. From one video to every part of the community talking about it, making custom codes, making debates left and right etc. Sooner or later devs will be cornered and would need to make a decision. I guess we'll see, cause the current trend doesn't suggest any changes for 2024. And 2025 is a year of many big releases, ow devs would need to make a decision then.
@@garikekSo their choice is quick and painful outrage or slowly growing outrage. Both are as bad but I think addressing it and taking the blow is better
Way more then 1% affected by queue times not everyone lives in America, small country servers non tank queue time in smaller population country were 15+ in low diamond and beyond
@@Real_MisterSir I really think he might be a moron. He speaks as if his opinion is 100% correct and everyone who thinks otherwise is a child. He often drifts away from the point he’s making and just endlessly rambles without saying anything of substance.
@@lilbongchainz28701:03:36 look at how much of a nerd he sounds here,he’s obviously sneak dissing flats because just before this flats questioned freedo’s comment about jeff kaplan saying he never wanted 2-2-2 role lock. Flats wanted to see proof and you can tell that irked Freedo. You can also tell everyone except SVB thinks Freedo is annoying and weird. Even SVB shows annoyance toward him as well though lol
@@BloodRain222 bro, I used to enjoy his videos, then I watched his tank stream for a bit a couple of weeks ago, and realised he’s a lower rank than me but he has the ego of a pro player. I’m sure he’s nice enough as a person, but his takes are really bad and his delivery of his takes is really arrogant
I just find it wild that after the giga buff tanks patch we are all still sitting here in agreement that it still doesnt feel good or strong. Its insane that we either still need more buffs or a fundamental change to feel good playing tank = /
@@Vastspartan Honestly 2 tanks wasn't that chaotic. The problem is the counterswap game on tank because there is only 1 breaks the role. Also having to put the stats of 2 tanks into one just unbalances certain picks.
@@yabitoI don't think the projectile sizes are too bad. Role passives I agree on though. The only passive that should stay is the ult charge reduction for damaging/healing tanks
@@kierancalverley220 personally I’m actually a big fan of the DPS passive too. Crazy, I know. Giving DPS a reason to shoot things beyond just getting the elim wasn’t a bad idea in concept; It was the fact that the passive was implemented in response to Support power creep rather than what it should have been for: Tank 1v1s. Support healing should be cut by 15% instead of 25% to keep them viable as a backline worth defending. The remaining 10-15% should be a general reduction in the effectiveness of over-health like shields + armor.
27:00 And thats why Lunar Colony's 2nd point was my favorite point of any 2cp map because they tried to open up the amount of ways you could engage from at the main point, but if you got held at the hall between first and second you were screwed because it was just a single entrance with a pathetic door to the side that lead to the same sightline. My problem was never 2cp as a concept it was the map design for 2cp being so unfriendly to flankers.
THIS THIS THIS!!! It's such a shame that 2cp is removed from the game when all 2cp maps are 1 additional choke away from being a good map (and addressing the stalling on 2nd point of course).
@@garikek To be fair, there was the problem of ultimate stacking to just obliterate 2nd point if you won first teamfight of the round on attack, but that could literally just be solved by clearing everyone's ult charge upon the point flip. Then you could give the mode back its stack timer from early OW1 to compensate and combine that with map fixes 2CP would've been great. Temple of Anubis B was also another point that was ridiculously close to being just as good as lunar colony B. There are some maps in 2cp that are just irredeemable though and really should not return if 2cp was to be revamped as it would require so much tinkering that it wouldn't even be the same map at that point, that's how fundamentally ingrained the problems of those maps can get. (Looking at you, Paris and Volskaya)
If you want 5v5 to work you need to rework more than 2 heroes every 6 months, rework more than 1 map every 3 months, actually address problem areas when doing a rework instead of just removing counterplay or buffing the numbers, possibly add a pick or ban phase. Basically if you want 5v5 to work you need to do all the work that is typically required of sequel not add a shop and remove a player. If we cant go back to 6v6 then the solution is the devs need to work their ass off to create an actual sequel and possibly even optimize all the characters and maps for the format they arbitrarily decided was better.
There is no way to balance 5v5. 1 tank means uneven power distribution in that role. No amount of reworks can make this balance-able because tanks have different kits with natural counters. Only way to stop that is to give every tank the same kit which isn’t gonna happen
was playing dva, had a positive kd, had a widowmaker on my team who would not swap off while getting dove by winston sombra and tracer yet at the end of the game when we lost and they had a negative kd they said "holy shit tank diff" This is the tank experience.
I like the crazy ideas part, i wish we had a "wild" mode to test all of them instead of imagining what it could be, but i don't think they have the dev time to do that, gotta make a random time limited mode to sell skins right guys? Live service really causes mediocrity, i wish the devs could just do stuff without caring about the next cosmetic drop, but that is a lost battle tbh.
I agree with the sentiment, but the devs definitely DO have time to implement crazy modes. One random person in workshop can make pretty much any crazy mode you can dream of on their own time. In only one day for example, I made a working flight simulator in Overwatch. In only one day, I made about half of an Overwatch classic mode. The AAA company that is Blizzard can easily do 100x more than I can. The problem is the management layer that plagues all of game dev, making even the smallest creative decisions into laboring planning sessions designed to squeeze maximum profit.
The funny thing is we did have the experimental mode in OW1 where stuff like this got tested out -so the idea that the all-hands-on-deck dev team of OW2 wouldn't have time to do it, is kinda odd. I mean they're doing weird shit all the time anyways, this would just introduce a more sanitized environment to test the wilder stuff out instead of cutting off the edges and throwing things straight into the main game with no public tests whatsoever.
@@Real_MisterSir To be entirely fair our expermential patch in OW1 was basically a preview patch. It was rare they ever tried anything that didn't make it to live.
Flats bringing up the fact that devs are so silent it’s deafening is honestly the scariest thought . Yea it may be about 6v6 however they have never spoken about tanks or 6v6 just try to misdirect the community about their problems
Not sure what you're on about. He's making a good point here, and Flats even nods in agreement after he makes the point. The point being: In OW1, the game was so far on the positioning moba side of things, that aim hackers could get regularly clowned on because the aiming part of the game was relatively irrelevant compared to other soft skills.
@@KuroKittenI mean bro if you invest 100/100 points into aim and have a wood rank positioning then of fucking course you're gonna lose even with hacks. Generally good aim players were all diamond+ in ow1. My friend has lvl 10 faceit and he never played ow, the first season he played he ended up mid masters. Basic understanding of the game and too good of an aim for the rank. But if he was as braindead as an average cheater he'd be gold at best, cause those cheating kids all have room temperature iq.
@@KuroKitten You're missing the point. That is how a game like Overwatch should be. If someone with the game sense and general understanding of a bronze player could dominate a GM lobby using an aimbot, that is a massive issue. The fact that they got stomped because they didn't have anything other than aim shows that the game was properly balanced.
You need to stop bringing on freedo on these discussions. He has lost his mind. He is completely delusional and his ego has gone through the roof. He dismisses all counter arguments and just assumes he is right about everything and then rambles on about it. Not to Mention his recent deranged tweet
because he's not interested in overwatch as much as he's interested in being a contrarian. In a bigot's words, he's a "pink haired hipster feminist." He contributes to nothing to the conversation and hasn't in any of his appearances in the podcast.
@@duel2803The hate is kinda warranted though because Freedo gets super toxic with his arguments at times. For example he recently made a video that was titled something like "6v6 advocates are the flat earthers of Overwatch" where he just says people who think 6v6 is a good idea are dumbass morons for the whole video while making a bunch of strawman arguments.
I am here from the anti-widow mafia to declare that widows one shot like hanzos should be removed. Nobody likes one shots in a hero shooter. if arrow man cannot 1 shot neither should point and click adventure hero. That will be all.
1-shots are fine, but they should be dodgeable in some way (counterplay). You can't dodge a Widow shot, that's why it sucks. Credit to Hanzo, you can dodge him, but it's very difficult at close range, esp because of his rate of fire
@@P-39_Airacobra Even if you can dodge then that requires you to see them first. You can't turn a corner and instantly be removed from the game by a tracer. 1 shot kills have no place in a hero shooter. If sigma cannot have his extremely skillful 1 shot i see no reason why widow needs the easiest one shot in the game to be a hero.
On behalf of the wifow mafia, i declare that your take is hot ass 🔥! The kits are fundamentally different with widows entire identity being around a one shot and hanzos identity never has been, especially if you compare their abilities ✊✊
@@JoltOfJoy wtf YES HANZO'S IDENTITY WAS HIS ONE SHOT lmfao ur smoking if you don't think that's true, also I think widow should be able to 1 shot, but not in 5v5 post season 9, the fact that WIDOW can one shot but HANZO can't is just insane, hanzo is at a disadvantage because it's not hitscan
@@Vastspartanin their opinion it didn’t work. Knowing now, time and time again, what they think works or will work, id wager 7v7 would genuinely be better lmfao.
I think the main and most immediate thing they could do is to stop designing heroes to be the balance in the game, stop making brigs to nerf dive or annas to nerf heal creep or orisa to counter hog/mauga etc. Make characters to have an actual identity, most heroes in ow really don't
48:39 - Did we lean too far into the fps side of overwatch? Yes. In my opinion, Everyone leaned too hard into the fps side of overwatch. The community (especially the dps players), and also the devs. The portion of the playerbase that liked the moba elements that made the game special were shouted down - especially after goats - and were mocked as no-skill casuals whose opinions weren’t valid. At some point Blizzard decided that it was too hard to balance the game around being an fps-moba hybrid and i guess they figured that the majority of their playerbase favors dps, so they said ”screw it, it’s an fps”. I said from the minute they announced 5v5 that the only way this shift in design goals ends well is if the team-fighting aspect of OW goes away in favor of making all the roles self-reliant - aka Deathmatch. Now here we are, the map design is fundamentally changing how the game is played, 2/3 roles are self-reliant, and the tank role is in a crisis because its the only role that isn’t. you can tell that the playerbase is adapting to this more selfish style of gameplay too. For example, I can’t remember the last time I saw an ult combo. Everyone used to know how to execute ult combos, even in quickplay. Even without comms. Now, I rarely see them happen. The devs have more-or-less said that they want to design OW to be more aligned with the average player experience (aka: solo-queue friendly). Therefore they want to move away from the game being played around team-comps and hero synergies - things that were core to the gameplay in OW1 that made it unique. So yeah, they leaned too hard into fps balancing. And I really don’t see them moving away from that. But they will fall on their face because tank & support aren’t “fps” roles. The existence of those roles in this game will always cause problems for the direction they’re trying to go in. I really wish they had balanced the game around becoming more moba-like. Pity.
@@josephreynolds2401 he has the worst takes that also happen to allign with everything blizz does (everything they do is garbage) I cant even take him seriously with these takes he has
@@dtg9k355 You haven't been listening if you think he favors Blizzard. He has been a critic since the channel started and his whole tenure. You're making shit up, flat earther.
I’m begging you to stop letting Freddo on this podcast. “Even a dps player hacking couldn’t beat two tanks”. It’s called a good format, crazy concept I know.
@@Mikeyboy779so implement 6v6 and change the synergies that made them problematic in the first place? Why is Overwatch changing only acceptable in certain circumstances when the game is in dire need of new content? If we constantly have to reinvent in either format, why not do it in one that we know worked in the past and had much more direct problems to tackle than 5v5 has in two years with far more consistent updates and game-shaking balance changes.
@@Mikeyboy779 I played OW1 as my main daily game after the latter half of 2020, arguably the peak of the franchise (it definitely was if you ask me), so I completely and uttely disagree. I was a Tracer and Ana main. A game where you can beat your enemy by playing smarter than them is inherently far more interesting than a game where the best aim wins. And what made Overwatch so awesome in the first place was the blend of BOTH of these qualities, mixing FPS and MOBA. The tank synergies needed balancing, there's no doubt about that, but the removal of the second tank was like sweeping the dirt under the carpet. Like cool, now the rest of the house looks clean, but you can't walk over the carpet without tripping and I'm pretty sure something has started living underneath it and shit's starting to get moldy. Go look at OW1 gameplay, or check out the community reactions to the announcement of 5v5. NO-ONE thought that we needed 5v5, even when actively playing inside the worst metas of 6v6, because the issue was a queue time and hero balance/design problem. Let's not forget that OW1 had a surprisingly healthy playerbase, even after 3 YEARS of no content updates and 8+ minute DPS queue times, but now that we're getting constant balance updates and crazy gamemodes etc. NOW the players are getting tired of it?
It was definitely a weird thing to say. Is it the tanks being broken or the hacker being soo dumb that he can’t flank and work around the shield to kill everyone? That’s why Flats said “That’s just bad positioning.”
One of the most low key nerfs to Queen (as a plat Queen OTP) is the inability to actually displace tanks anymore with knife. Pulling a tank out of position was like the one thing you could do against hog and the other annoying sustain tanks and it’s gone for now so 😢.
Dude freedo is slippin, "i dont come here to force my opinion" after casually mentioning overwatch was never meant to be 2-2-2, based on the "data". Changing his argument from 6v6 bad to 2-2-2 bad I guess. Yeah ok, the game released as open queue format but it was still 6v6, later to be refined as 2-2-2.
This on top of the samito + spilo 2 hour discussion (it was much more honest than this one, though flats was actually spitting here today) but still, we're eating good this morning. But also freedo is still as insufferable to listen to as last time. He sounds like he's here to regurgitate his talking points instead of actually listening to and understanding other people on the podcast. Having different takes is good for discussion, but not when you're discussing in bad faith. Once again, look to the 2 hour discussion between samito and spilo for an example of an honest discussion, I wouldn't even call that a debate with how much common ground they managed to find just be listening to each other instead of worrying about what they were gonna say to slam dunk the other guys point
I think fundamentally solo tank is just too much pressure/responsibility to be putting on one player where that simply isn't the case with any other class, it's incredibly exhausting. Sidenote SVB you're a great host!
I didn't believe it till I tried it but open queue is actually fun. If you're in the metal ranks, the queue times are actually better and with the 25% headshot reduction, the health changes actually don't feel that bad
Open queue quickplay is the most fun i've had in ow2. The only time it isn't is when people take it too seriously, which is sad. It's unbalanced quickplay guys, calm down.
This was a pretty good episode i really like how SVB moderated this one, spending less time of lengthy rant and encouraging people to say their piece quicker keeps the debate intersting as more opinions are shared. Great work, huge thumbs up and keep it up.
I would like stats to see how much Freedo speaks, because to me it seems as if he's there to fill space mostly. No offense to the guy, I'm sure he's nice, but against those other three... he doesn't have much to do.
I haven't watched the Freedo Response, but the guy must have mentally broke. Dude didn't come to debate, he came to drop his bag of ideas on the table and say "Here's your fix, done". Do I believe Samito calling 5v5 supporters are Shills? No. We can be adults, that's not the case, it's COMMON SENSE. Do I think Samito is far more right in what he has stated? Absolutely. The guy hasn't really been wrong, and 6v6 would solve a lot of problems. Do I think 5v5 could work? Yes, HOWEVER, To do so, would require changes to Overwatch 2 that would no longer make the game unique.
@@sasorioftheredsand4348 yes it is. There is only ONE balanced Support and that's Mercy. That's sad. Every other support is unkillable and does way too much. Literally easy mode for bad kids to climb. There is no world where supports like Kiriko and Baptiste should exist. Remove all immortalities from supports and then we can start talking
@@bradmiles1984 i think you are projecting tbh, the guy was clearly tired af, if you ask me i think he was not paying attention, bogur doesn't seem to care that much about this stuff
@dgiorr maybe but the timing is awfully strange, and he doesn't do that again at any other point in the stream. It's possible but would have to be quite the coincidence.
i think people are starting not to care anymore. Flats said it was good people are hating on the game cause at least it’s some interaction but when it’s been almost nothing but negative shit it’s kinda hard to care ab what they have to offer in the next year and the rest of this oke
> "we don't want characters with high skill expression dominate games" > "playing tank is depressing you only can outsustain and orisa/hog/mauga meta is stupid and boring"
Flats is cooking, AB hasn't been making OW brand live like Riot does with League. No show, cinematic or music to keep the hype and attract new players. They have to wake up or there will always be a new game to take the spotlight.
Yeah it's crazy with how good the shorts and things are just imagine if those would of been spun into entire movies or tv shows like league did with arcane.
@@bradmiles1984 i rly hope they do make a show but that have to make sure it’s not rushed, all the stars aligned in the conception of arcane and I just hope that they don’t rush it and make yet another shitty video game adaptation because lord knows we have enough of those in circulation.
@@skyler7017 Yeah I mean they make it with the quality level they did the shorts. It could even be like a variety show of one off episodes that could even be expanded things from the origins shorts like an episode that is the job junk and hog went on that got them banned from Junkertown or an episode of echo being made. Could show things from the past too like an episode of Cass and Ashe when they started deadlock. So many things they could expand on.
How to make Mauga actually fun to play/play against: - Remove Volatile Chaingun - Incendiary Chaingun is now on his right (because a left-handed POV feels weird) - Incendiary Chaingun now deals a little more damage and more reliably burns targets - His new right click throws 5 small grenades in front of him (5 meter range) that detonate after 1 second and each explosion deals 40 damage, also burns targets (no instant impact explosion, similar to a more spread-out Junkrat passive) - His abilities can now burn deployables (I just dislike deployables) - Cardiac Overdrive now heals him based on how many heroes are burning (40HP/s per burnt target?) - Cardiac Overdrive also heals allies in range (15HP/s per burnt target?) - Remove his synergy with Ashe's dynamite/Torb's Ult (too strong with new Cardiac Overdrive) - Berserker Passive removed (no more overhealth when dealing crits) Not perfect and numbers definitely need adjusting but this concept allows Mauga to be a fun aim-reliant hero with target prioritzation that can easily destroy deployables and create space with his lethal close-range right-click and new-found synergy (Overrun or Cage Fight + Grenades), while still maintaining plenty of counterplay against him (absorbing his grenades or using shields, bubbles, suzu, anti nade, ...)
It's not 5v5 or 6v6, they just can't balance, and you HAVE to balance top down, they add too many variables and try to balance for different skill levels and it just doesn't work
@sasorioftheredsand4348 nope, 5v5 can be balanced, tanks have bigger hit boxes and inherently need to take space per their role, thus they need inherent survivability.. they should also have less damage but more cc.. ppl don't like this cause they want op damage tanks but that's just not their role.. also, balance should happen top down, unless you're gonna have different balance changes that literally change depending on your rank, stop trying to control bad skill of players and force them to get better instead of crutch characters and the such
@@joshuafruth6420 One role can`t dominate the game. if tanks are op as a solo character and I cant kill them as Dps is that my mistake?, that does not make sense
@sasorioftheredsand4348 you're supposed to kill support/dps first, then the tank, unless the tank greatly overextends itself, that's how mobas work, also, the tank shouldn't be able to secure quick kills, yes, they should win attrition fights 1v1 or 1v2 at times, but it's on you to disengage at that point
@@joshuafruth6420 Comparing Overwatch with league/dota as a moba and saying the tank should be the one do die last is outrages, punishing tanks need to be a thing, they cant just do wherever they want all the times. 1 players holds all the game hostage?. That is a very bad design problem in a fps hero shooter
![The Great DPS Debate [2024] feat. Jay3, Samito, Spilo & Deku](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t0Z5uYpNB80/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Great DPS Debate [2024] feat. Jay3, Samito, Spilo & Deku](/img/tr.png)
This episode was recorded on 30th May 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ )
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i like Bogue idea but instead of 1 flex player i would chose 2 (1 tank/1 dps/1 support/ 2 flex players) ofc under assumption that it would be balanced like moba, tanks is survive for a long time and low dps/cc, supports has less dmg or weaker utility/limited healing
Sorry I'm gonna be the one to do this here lol, Idk why we're ignoring 6v6 so much as an actual solution
I'd love to see a dps and support debate.
freedo is living cringe
Bogurs face at the 58:18 mark is actually an accurate representation of how i feel when freedo starts to attempt to cook
Bro is so unhinged with his sarcastic rants. I think freedo was bullied by two tanks in ow1, somebody hurt him.
@@jaysonmcknight6044hes also just kind of stupid. Hes been masters/diamond for 8 years, and thats part of his job. He doesnt comprehend overwatch over masters.
@@ludwigvanbeethoven8164 not trying to defend Freedo specifically here, but as a Master or even diamond, you can still have a understanding of the game above, but you lack the mechanical skill to reach that far. 'Knowing' the game and how it works can get you to Masters, but you still need aim/mechanical skill to be able to hang in GM and above. This was also the case back in OW1 when Masters arguably was what GM is now.
@@hexia6760 No in Overwatch 1 as a person who was a diamond for 1 year...then masters for 1 year...then low grandmasters for 1.5 years (4000-4200)....then a 4600 player for 2 years...every single step I learned more, even though i was nerding out more diamond and masters, i didnt know the game, even though u thought I did.
Yes. My mechanics did get better, but I was a support player.
It also doesn't help that I believe, and I truly believe this, now after seeing Freedo talk about overwatch for the past year is that he does NOT speak in good faith. His opinions are so bad, and his demeanor is so gross, I don't believe he's in it "in bona fide".
Edit: It's not to say that I didn't know how the game worked in diamond, BUT, I didn't know the crucial details and my opinions about things were wrong about certain things.
This was when bogur was trying to cook up his own take you ppl are unhinged these ppl are strangers to you omfg stop projecting your hatred on to others
Freedo telling the others to put their crazy ideas to a different game because he wants to play his game is crazy condescending especially when they're specifically in a segment about bringing up ideas in their "safe space". Like bruh c'mon now
Specially when you are The worst player on the call, I used to like his content when it was about overwatch new and events, instead of pretending he understands The game, saying shit like "junkrat id lowkey broken", a character that hasnt been player basically for 5 seasons
I noticed that. I bet the discord messages between flats, bogur, danteh and svb went crazy after the debate was over.
yea freedo sounded so emotional in that part
I think this comment is dumb because all Freedo did was tell his own opinion about what he would like this game to be and after Flats' rant Freedo recognized that his opinion isn't necessarily the healthiest for the game. Also I really like how Freedo acknowledged that everyone can't always have what they want which I see rarely from someone who isn't getting what they want. Huge Freedo W
@@ArttuMoisanderThe issue, you bot, is that he’s speaking out his ass. So others can express their opinion more freely than he can because they’re backed by actual facts
Okay I watched this baked out of my mind and this is what I noticed:
SVB trying to rein in Freedo had me geeking. There was one moment where Flats looked very irritated with Freedo, Bogur was completely disinterested/eyes glazed over, and Danteh is 100% looking at Discord or something and not paying attention. Meanwhile Freedo just rants.
Freedo released a very divisive video yesterday, so it’s fresh on his mind. I get having him on but it seemed inevitable a long rant was coming (he completely ignored the question lol).
That being said after Flats’ A+ tier rant on why they constantly gotta shuffle the game, the whole podcast got a lot better. Felt like everyone settled in, Freedo got more succinct, and Danteh/Bogur were more dialed in for the hero specific changes
Low-key tho that's what I expect from freedo, is he really on if he doesn't rant so hard he forgot the point he was tryna make lol
LMAOOOOO, DUDE THATS FUNNY AF
Why does freedo sound like he's arguing against 6v6 even when discussing unrelated topics?
He is talking with the voiced in his head that's how tje man lost his hair too
I KNOW RIGHT
@@Bismarck9871 LMFAO
Because the other participants were doing the same thing just the opposite way
Because he's a creator more interested in rhetoric than the actual quality of the game.
Flats was fr cookin so hard when he was talking about why it’s good to keep the game fresh
So they have to keep the game fresh but also not re-invent the wheel?
@@KanggaxxThat contradiction was his entire point; you can’t really do both.
PS: it’s interesting to note Flats’ point in mentioning it as well. He may not agree with 6v6 but there’s not much of a reason why it couldn’t at least be an option in the game.
I would love skill trees on pvp.
Its because they think LGBTQ events, skins, Porsche colabs, k-pop colab is content. its not. The game play is the content. and they barely change that
@@SuperLifestream wait so season 9 ranked and healthpool/hitbox rework WASNT a major change to gameplay?
Freedo starts talking and time slows to a crawl, this guy manages to ramble so much and for so long, yet says so little with each self-imposed rant he decides to go off on. MASSIVE killer of the pacing when everyone else gets their points across without sounding like they belong in an asylum. then Freedo just goes on and on and on about NOTHING.
58:15 What was the point of Freedo being so condescending and patronizing here lmao. This guy is incapable of having a normal conversation.
I don't understand what he brings to the podcast. I frequently have to just skip his points because they are jumbled and non-sensical as it is.
Freedo just runs on and on 😖
It pisses me off how he's so confident and patronising he is. Bogurs reaction to this says it all
He’s the patch notes clown
You're just a crazy flat earther 😅
Freedo spoke 3 minutes and said absolutely nothing. What a legend. Could have been a great politician.
Can you give the timestamp? (If you didn’t mean three hours)
At 58 mins he goes on a rant and genuinely makes no sense.
@@mitchelljensenproductions2263 bogurs face when freedo talks about the hackers kills me 😂
Imo counter swap inspired game design has destroyed the concept of fulfilling a hero fantasy. You’re not much of a hero if you can’t overcome adversity and as soon as some one swaps to counter you, the fantasy has fallen apart and you now gotta play a completely different hero just to win. Or stay locked to play what you want and throw the game
Nah you stick with your hero and win. At least on console, silver gold qp lol
This is so real, imagine in cannon fucking doomfist runs scared of Ana and brig.
@@michaels9595Well that’s because those players fundamentally are like sub humans trying to play a game. Obviously counterswapping won’t matter in SUPER low ranks. But now even in plat it matter
@@michaels9595this does not apply to tank because you will end up losing the game 100% of the time
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738
I'm Gold 2 and it matters... 😂
Freedo, can you please be a bit more polite in the debates! It’s supposed to be a safe space for people my dude!
Keep your emotions in check!
@Osrsw31 SDE?
This is what tank does to you😂
i LOVE how the arguement for 5v5 was que times and yet just got off a session were i waited a minimum of 8 minutes to play tank on a saturday night, PEAK hours. Every other role was 8 plus minutes and this was for a couple of hours. So 5v5 was for faster ques yet it ran off so much of the player base that ques times are just as long as 6v6.
I waited 23 minutes yesterday afternoon with my buddy, yeah it was technically a wide group but the rank difference isn't that high
Bro I've been experiencing 4-5 min queues on DPS for the last month and a half at the very least. It's actually ridiculous. And people just ignore it because it's their talking point.
It's truly amazing how devs have managed to kill the role so much that with half the required tanks were almost back to the worst times of overwatch queue times wise.
@@garikekthis whole last month my dps quae were 8+ min yesterday I I saw 4 mins I qued in since it was lowest I seen all month
Yeah the queues legit feel LONGER than in OW1 at times. And that's compared to a game that had no content updates for 3 YEARS and lackluster balance patches that came infrequently and were often criticized for taking the balance in the wrong direction (things like insane AOE healing sustain etc.)
@@spew42
They light made Tank unfun, so no one wants to solo Tank. That's the problem with 5v5 as a solution to queue times. It ignored the problem of not having fun as a Tank so having one Tank will just feel worse.
I don't know why they ever bring Freedo on this show. All he ever does is be condescending and rude, then be wrong about it anyway, and spit absolutely insane hot takes that are the most "I don't know how games work" opinions of all time.
Yea no that rant he did at the start of crazy ideas made no sense. Like people not liking tanks with no shields which just wasn’t true
Devs dont mention 6v6 because it was literally the ONLY tangible gameplay difference made outside the monetization model and they needed something to market to justify a sequel. Queue times were an issue and a convenient neutral justification, perhaps even a two birds one stone, but doesnt change the fact that moving to 5v5 was the only legitimate gameplay difference between OW1 and OW2 because they knew PvE was never happening.
No lie, this has been my suspicion since awhile ago
Well Flats and Bogur aren't completely against 6v6, so my guess is Freedo is a shill... 😂
@@Adventist1997 flats has now come even as far saying on stream that if the next patch doesnt fix tanks he'll join the 6v6 train
I respect Flats' takes so much, even if I don't agree with them. He tries really hard to see every side of the problem.
Honestly Same. I'm scared of just making so much new stuff to artificially increase viewership but I understand what he's getting at when it comes to game relevance.
Unless you play Reaper, in which case, he wont even entertain the idea.
Thats what i always liked about Flats, he definitely picks a side but he always has a good reason why
Almost too much tho. He won't out his foot down
i’m glad flats stated that even if he doesn’t agree with 6v6, the silence on the devs’ part is deafening. they seem to be deliberately ignoring it
They are because it's a stupid point
@@lordmew5 how is an easy good solution a stupid point
This is the reason that although the 6v6 debate feels like beating a dead horse, I'm ultimately okay with it. We need to continue to bring it up because the devs NEED to address this. They've had 1.5+ years to fix the game and all of the attempts they've made to fix the game haven't worked. 6v6 should at least be experimented with.
@@bambampewpew32If you think it was an "easy good solution," you were not playing in 2020.
@@KingOfNebbishes 🤡
Flats: do you have sources?
Freedo: 😡
exactlyyyy
Lmfao
Funny how he always tells Samito things like how you have to go based off facts but reacts that way in the video, and even in Freedos newest video "debunking 6v6" about how Jeff Kaplan "wanted 1 tank”, he "references" an article and even says that he cannot find where it was said. But in one of biggest articles about role lock, they explicitly said they tried 1 tank but did not get good feedback from the tank players at all.
@@sawtuthe9670 EXACTLY DUDE HE PROJECTS SO HARD lmao
Flats: I’m gonna derail Freedos easy to understand and onpoint arguments by gish gallop my feelings and anecdotes to prove he’s wrong
I think freedo is too far down the 5v5 6v6 rabbit hole and didn’t give much opinion how he would want the current game improved. I’d still prefer 6v6 tho
He talked about draft pick/bans stuff a long time ago and the devs/community never gave af, he said on this podcast he doesn't give his opinion on that cause he knows its not whats "better for the game overall", in the sense of most players would not like it or it would be less attractive to new audiences despite being more competitive, i think he sees it as a lost battle, so why keep hammering on it
@@wyvzrn he wasted the first hour or so of the podcast going on long patronizing rants never completing a single point. You could tel the other guests were uncomfortable and SVB had to make him wrap it up. He improved towards the end
@@ZzsiegzZ It’s probably because the tank discussion was inevitably going to go to the 6v6 discussion. It seems to me that Freedo was trying to speed up this process by subliminally alluding to it on most of his points. Flats finally got the hint and put the discussion to bed, and the pod moved into a more realistic discussion. Which is let’s move forward and not backwards. Freedo said we all have to sacrifice something for the game to progress. I personally loved open queue, but I got over it. You can even see the rest of the pod kind of liven up after they each put 6v6 to rest.
@@wyvzrnthe reason nobody would take this draft/ban system seriously is because it kills the soul and reason of the game. Overwatch is a hero shooter where you can SWAP AT ANY TIME (originally to any hero, now to only your role). His idea is so fucking ridiculous. Just go play dota, they have the draft system and it works. If at any point overwatch implements a ban or draft system it's gonna speedrun killing the game.
@@nycempirestate4689 I would argue it was only more realistic in the sense that people weren't so combative about whether it would "fix the game" or not.
The problem I have with most content creators is that 6v6 doesn't _have_ to be the end-all-be-all in order to be healthier for the game. They keep saying to "move forward" with 5v5, but they all assume the format can keep players interested long-term, which it hasn't shown itself to do across a year-and-a-half with constant balance changes.
6v6 just works better for the game, and you can continue OW2 design by reworking Tanks there more in line with DPS and Support, as the latter was with DPS and Tank in OW2.
Watch the 5v5 vs 6v6 debate with Samito and Spilo instead.
It was a really productive conversation tbh
Yeah these guys talking about imaginary changes while not understanding why casuals agree with Samito is really frustrating
I personally don't want every topic to go back to 6v6 (even though I want 6v6 myself), but the format is so intrinsically tied to the issues of that game at the moment that you can't just not discuss it. It feels like in a lot of points they'll purposely avoid the 6v6 argument or disregard the legitimate points it has to not cause tension/they just are tired of hearing about it. And honestly, that's a bit immature.
Yes, actually hard agree!!
@@eagerinspiritAlmost all of the problems now are in correlation without having another tank. You can cook the numbers of this game all you want with balances, characters etc but it will never replace an actual human playing beside you. The reason why having two tanks felt so good is that you had more control of the outcome of how your teammates played.
Replace freedo the discord mod with Danteh the Roman Chad.
All roads lead to 6v6
All 6v6 roads lead to the end of overwatch.
@@jm0112tell me which way the 5v5 road is leading..
@@jm0112The 6v6 road won Ow1 game of the year.
@@ranjnijan3446 That was 6v6 no limits 6 winston is game of the year gameplay
@jm0112 no, even in the open queue days there was a balance. Most games even if they started with 6 Winston's typically ended with a well rounded team.
Freedo really has OW1 on his mind during this pod cast. I haven’t seen him act this aggressively on a podcast before
Watch the season 9 podcast with him & Samito then
Yeah Freedo was on something else ever since the last Freedo and Samito Podcast. He basically sounds like he's the Enlightened one and everything he says backed up by facts, even tho those facts have yet to be brought out.
I mean he is with bogur and flats, who have recently looking back fondly at ow1, and with Jake who seems to BE neutral on it, só maybe he was defensive or trying to "fix" their nostalgia
@@hexia6760The only reason he was angrier there is because Samito knows how to shift the flow of a debate. Flats and Bogur can get bitched sometimes but Samito doesn’t allow people to say whatever they want when they speak. And as he should
really loved hearing from danteh in this one! the pro perspective isn’t one we get often outside of casters and coaches like spilo and custa, so this was a cool addition. would love to see him on again
Get freedo off the debate group.
Like why does he talk down on everyone that enjoyed 6v6 like if they are some idiots?? The same people that just want overwatch back to when it was at its peak and still considered one of the best fps years later instead of accepting this watered down bs.
And for what, what’s the point of defending ow2?? Overwatch content on TH-cam now has so much more negativity, creators talking about the bad state of the game and reacting to other people’s criticism or bad balance patches.
Back then there was at least lore videos, cinematic short reactions, hero guides, and overall healthier discussions compared to what we have nowadays.
Yeah brother I wanted an echo chamber why tf is there an opposing opinion on my podcast wtf svb!!
@@jaysmi5467it's fine if there is different opinions but it needs to be someone who isn't going to insult peoples intelligence and be a dick about everything.
@@jaysmi5467It needs to be someone that isn’t speaking out their ass. The issue is that no one that is purely for 5v5 is reasonable and has facts
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 Bruh you said an NDA you've never read or heard of is why flats and bogur aren't 6v6 supporters. You literally made up facts about a mystically NDA to make your opinion correct. Please do not speak about facts when you're talking about NDAs
@@jaysmi5467 you've missed the point of the comment you're responding to. Either due to intellectual incompetence, emotional immaturity or intellectual dishonesty. None of which are a great look. No-one with even a semi-developed frontal cortex is going to complain about there being opposing views on the podcast, the issue is the condescending tone and inability to actually REPRESENT the opposing argument when arguing against it.
I love how the 6v6 topic was under the “crazy ideas” section. Flats was spitting facts and I felt his frustration, but he was being so honest with how he felt and what he’s observed. Amazing.
my experience
- tank in ranked: ok if you accept to swap
- tank in QP: miserable
ong, every game of qp is so sweaty, even sweatier than comp. i havent played in a week since every time i play doom the other team counterswaps, and if we lose my team is screaming "tank diff", its really annoying
@@le_m4cho965 literally same
Bogur is tiredddddd of Freedo 😂
Yeah i feel like there was something really awkward going on there
Freedo just be talkin sometimes
So was flats lol
It sounded to me like Freedo just has played a lot of tank recently, have a lot of thoughts on different heroes and things he has discovered over the past few months that he wanted to share.
Unfortunately, the others just weren't really interested in hearing his very personal thoughts and perceptions of each hero and how he discovered playing x can do this and playing y counters this etc.
It seems that Bogur and Flats are both very tired of this version of the role and have a hard time finding their current gameplay loop enjoyable, so I imagine nothing could be as uninteresting to them as hearing someome go on a rant about niche hero interactions when all they want to discuss is big shakeups to make the role completely different from its current state.
@@wyrda1602 wow that was incredibly well articulated and insightful
6v6 opens up more varied hero design more more varied map design more varied comps…
5v5 is corporate think at its worst
Is it just me or does Freedo just have THE WORST takes on everything Overwatch? LOL
not just you, like, I can appreciate some of the words he says but not his attitude
I'm 95% sure he doesn't play the game. Mf is complaining about fucking teamwork in a tram based shooter.
I liked a good amount of his takes during the ow1 days. Not sure what changed
also salt
Yeah
almost all these issues are solvable in 6v6 btw, just dont make awful heroes like launch sigma, bap brig and double barrier is not an issue
Time stamps that skip past freedo? Anyone got them?
Supports: learn Kiriko and Bap.
Dps: learn Tracer and Ashe.
Tanks: learn Sigma, Mauga, Hog, Orisa, Winston, DVa, Zarya.
You were really close. Dps: learn tracer and Sojurn.
I love how tanks don’t have to learn rein🤣🤣
Brig too, for a good jump-start
It’s so damn true though!
It’s been Kiriko and Bap (Lucio and kind of Moira too) for so long as the best default choice which are the 3 supports I don’t enjoy playing. I usually play support but haven’t for a while. I miss Anna, Illari, Zen, Brig, Mercy and would love to finally be able to play LW. Support meta feeling pretty stale
Summer 2019 was peak overwatch.
Jesus, what is freedo even doing here? He admits he wants to play a shooter type game, but he's basically too scared to go play an actual FPS like Valorant. He's the casual dork, who wants to just play cowboy and stand behind a shield while getting mercy beamed. Doesn't like MOBA game play, but still wants tanks and healers. Unfuckingreal.
Yeah I actually had a similar thought during one of Freedos rant during this episode where I went: "Does Freedo even like the idea of a hero shooter?" Like him complaining that in OW1 it was possible to win against cheaters because positioning and gamesense was king, is such a weird complaint. I always thought that was one of the greatest qualities of Overwatch as a *concept*. If I wanted a game that was just about clicking heads faster and with better accuracy than my enemies I could play literally any other FPS game in existence.
It's only in Overwatch where I get to play a character that is a literal wrecking ball, dealing damage by slamming into enemies. (Ball could never have been released in OW2) Only in Overwatch do I get to play a monkey that doesn't have to aim, but needs to understand where to be at all times to be useful. Only in Overwatch can I play a wallriding DJ, always being there to help out my team, not with dealing damage, but by staying alive with complex movement to always give buffs to my team. etc etc.
Hitting headshots in OW is up there as some of the most satisfying game feel/feedback ever, but not every character should be about hitting heads because "boohoo the game required too much thought for the average player, so let's strip it of its identity and just make it a generic shooter"
Time stamp ? So I can lose even more faith in humanity.
@@spew42 the problem is that then you can't reach wider audiences for a live service game. you launch ow2, people jump on it, get frustrated and leave. hell even i don't want 6v6 back because general solo que ranked experience was far worse and inconsistent.
@@musicxxa6678 I disagree. Where is the data that proves people would be frustrated with 6v6? Cos it definitely isn't OW1, since peoples frustrations were almost always tied to hero balance, and slow, misguided balance patches, not the format itself.
Quite the opposite in fact: the end of 2020-start of 2021 the people playing were actually VERY happy with the state of the game ,but without more content releases coming, the game was destined to fizzle out. The wider general audience was not playing during that period. The vast majority of people who tried Overwatch before 2020 but didn't play afterwards never really even got to play Overwatch in it's most functional state ever. So I'm not convinced that your point stands.
Valorant is for fucking losers just saying
As a platinum ball player: what is this "taking space"?
Imagine thinking of parts of maps as "space" and they remove the enemies from that space so they have more options and limit where the enemies can go.
@@ryanbraun3561nah its when you fireball retract into the skybox. Must do on every roll out
it’s when you camp the outside area in Horizon Lunar Colony
Space is anti-attention. If your dps have the ability to take angles and move around without getting shot by 3 people, they have "space". If your ball is just sitting around doing nothing, and the second you show yourself you get shot by all 5 enemies, your ball isnt giving you "space". It can also be about how many abilities are being used on you vs the tank, who has the most ability to "tank" those abilities.
Its when you throw yourself at them and they use all their abilities and ults on you BC Ur annoying, then your team can take advantage of it by not going on and blaming u in chat
Man there has been a lot of tank debates lately. Almost as if the role is struggling the most cause of the format. But hey if Overlord of tanks Freedo says it fine it’s fine right?
People also don’t really talk about how lonely being a solo tank feels in game. It’s all on you, and unlike other games, support and dps don’t really work as a “partner”.
I have played tank less than 10 times the past few months, but I’ve barely made it of the metal ranks in OW1. The idea of going back to that is depressing
That's the killer part for me. I can bear counterpicking as it's not happening every game, so at least sometimes I'll have a good time. And eating every cd is also bearable, because there are sometimes comps where there isn't that much shit to throw at you. But what you can't fix is being alone. It's boring, you fuck up and you're at the mercy of your support with immortality to save you, there isn't a player to just step Infront of you and help you while you're recharging your cooldowns or whatever, instead you just look at the wall and wait.
And since you're frontlining you don't see your teammates ever. Feels like a single player experience to an extent. Enemies are just bots. You don't see your team. Like if I wanted a single player game I'd go play rdr2 or something, not overwatch.
If you not counterswap as a tank player, you get mass reported or have discussions with teammates. Thats a other really bad thing. I had my first silence on an alt account, just left team chat forever.
Even in quickplay. If you don't counterswap you get flamed. If you do counterswap, the enemies flame you. No matter what your teammates rarely swap with you. You're expected to be the winston that dives the widow, the rein that spearheads the front line, and the D.va that peels for your supports while tracer terrorizes your backline. Yet, by even trying you take up resources that should be used to get a pick. And it's entirely your fault for just wanting to play doomfist. You can't even learn tank heroes anymore because you get mass reported and flamed for not doing well in a quickplay game. :/
Tbh Overwatch has been out for more then 5 years, I started as a hog main & grinded out all tanks now my best r Winston/Ball, so if you cannot counterswap by now then you done nothing to improve ur hero pool & deserve to be flamed by ur team.
@@CGTradez more than 5 years is such a weird way to phrase that + dogshit take
@@CGTradezCounterswapping doesn't take skill. You can train a monkey or even a crow to play rock paper scissors. It's that it is tiring, boring, and not fun for the majority of players. Not fun in a game. Games are supposed to be fun. That's the entire point.
@@dtg9k355 well if you want to see improvements & win more then u should be able to flex when needed, may not be the most popular opinion but it’s true. Grind out other tanks especially since some excel better then others in different maps
All this effort to reinvent the wheel....when to begin with the wheel was Game Of The Year.
Yes freedo keep meat riding blizzard as you do
Please never let frito back on the podcast. He doesn’t actually say anything and what he does say is arrogant. He immediately shuts down discourse and acts like he is smarter than everyone in the room. Genuinely makes me angry to listen to
L take
@@saudabualdam4477that’s literally what he did the whole podcast.
Freedo is the only guy there who doesn’t derail the conversations by speaking anecdotes for 3 minutes just to get a point across. This episode would literally be 60 minutes shorter and more enjoyable if Flats had to say his thing on a 1 minute stopwatch
This wannabe nostradamus act from freedo is getting so old man. The use of rhetorical devices to frame an argument as logical and based in evidence is one that's employed in "debate" as a game where people compete to see who's better at arguing, not one that's of any particular use when you're "debating" to actually find an answer or meaningful middle ground. He did the same thing in february and it was just as transparent. I just feel like it's really disingenuous given how charitably he's approached by basically everyone he discusses this with
I tried talking to him on X about how he says Baptiste and he went off on me. Dude talked town to me in a tweet and said being correct isn't important after getting defensive and lashing out bc I kindly let him know that some people might not appreciate the way he says it since he's not French, etc. He could've just ignored me but took the time out to make sure I knew he was better than I was.
First time I agree with Flats in a very long time. Here in this section of the podcast 1:16:40 - 1:22:52
i usually find flats very agreeable, i’m curious as to what exactly you’d disagree with
@defaultdan7923 I just feel that Rein just isn't the gold standard of what a tank should be anymore in Overwatch 2, and he complains as if it should be and screw every other tank in the roster. My picks for Gold Standard would Sig and Winston. He sometimes overblown some changes to the game, especially in the practice range, where it looks bad. In reality, it's countered by this or in practice in a real game it's not all that bad/its irrelevant. I also don't like how rather than think of ways to improve a character, he says to "send them to the farm" and then forgets about them till they're relevant again.
@@defaultdan7923 Wasn't he acting like Brig's soft-rework was going to break the game and outplay every tank in the game?
@@immortalmadman4822 ah, fair enough then
@@noctisofrivia8778it does? have you played brig or against brig before? brig used to be anti dive now She literally dives with her ult and is unkillable. noone knows how to play brig in the avg ranks. she's the least picked support but is prob top 3 support rn. I've seen so many boosted brig players in Masters/GM and they get there, who are like gold on other roles.
I think we just need a day in the week where we have 12 content creators play the workshop code 7HSKW and after idk a month or 2 they can just debate what they like and dont like about it and we dont have the whole "Rose tinted Glasses" come back. We are playing 6v6 rn and a good amount of people enjoy that over the alternative. We dont have to look for the devs to "fix it so it works" fans have already done that to the best of their ability with a small sample size.
Something like Emong Flats Eskay Karq Jay3 Seagul vs Bogur Freedo Wanted Samito ML7 Aspen
Doesnt have to be them but thats an example.
THANK YOU SOOO MUCH I HAVE BEEN LOOKING EVERYWHERE FOR THAT CODE
@@Elizabeth68337 Lol, no problem! If I'm not mistaken the team behind Scrubclub Media are the ones posting it the most but I'm not 100% sure they are the ones behind it
And that's where the shill problem will rise. I remember samito messaging many creators live and all of them declined. It's not like their viewership is dependant on playing ranked, especially since that lobby would also be high ranked. They know that 6v6 is the topic to stay away from, and playing 6v6 is as bad as it can go for them.
@@garikek maybe go for people that have also tried it independently like harblue samito guru iron for example
The NDA might have some shitty technicality that they don’t want to try and find out or they’ll lose their big paying contracts
The great tank debate. Featuring steering clear from the elephant in the room 6v6.
They don't wanna use energy on something they think will never happen'. Though we did get a little 6v6 in this debate, I still know what you mean.
If the devs make a comment on 6v6, and it isn't about it being 100% off the table, we'll get a 6v6 debate.
@hexia6760 yeah they did slightly touch on 6v6.. but man it's painful to hear them talk about reworking DVA instead of just going back to 6v6.
@@tyrantla7120Rework on Diva is a viable conversation to be had, if we consider 5v5 to be the end all be all. She needs to be reworked in order to function in this format, same with Zarya to some extend.
@@hexia6760yeah because it’s not like they already reworked ball, hog and orisa and look shit state the game is still in . Reworking dva and Zarya will do nothing in the long run.
@@hexia6760we’ve reworked too many heroes already and half of them have been failures. Enough is enough. If we have to rework the whole game to make 5v5 viable it’s clear there’s a problem with the current format causing issues that weren’t a problem for 6 years.
Bringing Freedo on here seems like hidden engagement farming to me with how ridiculous his takes and behavior is.
lmao a psyop
Freedo genuinely seems unhinged in how he represents others views he disagrees with
Yeah it's so intellectually dishonest. (or potentially intellectually incompetent, but I don't think Freedo is lacking in smarts, I just think his ego/emotions get the better of him and he ends up arguing in bad faith as an emotional reaction to the worst takes from the 6v6 camp. Like he develops this personal mission of proving 6v6ers wrong because some of them constantly accuse him of being a shill etc.)
The WHOLE crux of this whole conversation is the problem that 5v5 was tacked onto OW1 instead of a game developed from scratch with a 5v5 design in mind. Like instead of Blizzard having sat there and abandoned OW1 to developed a PVE and waste 2 to 3 years and they actually had a future game design in 5v5 and spent those 3 years with that in mind Im sure ow2 would be in a waaaay better state. But we are stuck with the ghost of 6v6 with 5v5 screw onto the side and we as a game community are stuck having to go through all the growing pains as the developers try to make this work. And after going through this for 2 years, i think it safe to say that as a community we are just done waiting.
The thing is when they were designing OW1 they were deciding between 5v5, 6v6, and 7v7. They found out the best play overall was 6v6.
I will be honest, Bogur's take on comunity behaviour towards tanks is the ONLY reason I would be down to 6v6, being the only tank makes it a hellish experience in lower elos
Like he said a tank can play almost perfectly still be flamed for one mistake. I had a game like that yesterday. I have a junk that was complaining about me when I was 17 and 4 on sigma yet he was 1 and 12 on junkrat. I had twice the dmg mitigation as the other teams sigma yet he flamed me in match chat. The one surprising thing was the whole enemy team started flaming him during end of match telling him it wasn't my fault then endorsed me. Shows there are some in the community but like Bogur says there is always a bonerfart64.
Bro I had a guy message me on Xbox calling me a loser after winning a NO LIMITS match. I was on Hog and he was on soldier shooting me the entire game and had basically no eliminations.
@@BeastMode-bw2ry Crazy running across someone with such ego in a arcade mode game.
@@bradmiles1984that's Xbox dude, there are very special people on that platform.
devs need to nut up and say something about 6v6, SAY SOMTHING! ANYTHING! I also agree with Flats. Updates are way to slow. Its almost been 2 years and weve hardly gotten any maps, "reworks" take 7 months to barely change the hero and balance is stale.
Arron Keller did a few months back. He told the 6v6 people “that nostalgia is one hell of a drug”.
That made me lose all respect for him despite people like flats or samito saying he’s a good guy.
You know what?! Copium is a far worse drug Arron.
@@ziggy2metalx720wasn't that the executive producer Jared neuss and it was just a twitter reply?
They need to have a video talking about 6v6, or at least a blog post. Whatever the dev commented is highly irrelevant as it could just be virtue signaling.
@@garikek both really. Also notice how when Jared neuss comes to a stream to talk about the game, most of the time it’s going to be something negative or something to disappoint the fans
@@ziggy2metalx720That was Jared and Samito said his piece about that dogshit tweet
1:17:03 Bogurs expression here took me out. 'Oh no....' HAHAHAHA
Freedo first complaint that players mentality is what he hates, is wild, no matter what the devs do in this 5v5 format, with 1 tank they will always get more blame than the other roles. The community is not going to change in the way he wants, its only going to get farther from his ideals
You are exactly who he’s referring to. Not a single solution in this big ass comment just reeee go back to 6v6 like bro we heard that take already we are looking for new ones 🙄
@@jaysmi5467as long as tank isn’t fun to play, 5v5 will never the answer. if the devs can find a way to make tank fun without taking away from the other roles, there is hope. However, we’re in season 10 going on season 11. It’s about time we stop pretending it’s possible for them in this format. it’s easier to make a better game by going to 6v6 and work on the problems that it has, especially with this new and better dev team and no bobby kotick. That why people want 6v6, because if overwatch has any chance of being a great game, it’ll be in the 6v6 format
@@itsTKParkerThat's the thing, they keep buffing tank hp and sustain over and over and over.
Why is Junker queen fun to play? Because she has a slim hitbox, her A-D spam manipilates her head hitbox to make it hard to hit her head, and she has a movement ability that can be used offensively, defensively and to further dodge incoming damage with good mobility.
Why is she fun to play against?
Because she has a low max health pool, so if you are good enough to hit her, even when she dodges, she is killable.
This also has other positives. She takes less time to heal to full, so supports don't have to pump as much healing into her. She is less likely to be hit, so it feels better for the queen since she is not consistantly drilled with damage and cc. It feels worse to shoot ar her with hard-to-hit weapons and cooldowns than shooting it at a big tank since you are more likely to miss and players love to get the hitmarker sounds. But when players do manage to hit those things, it feels more rewarding since it takes out more of her health percentage.
It feels worse psychologically to spam randomly at the junker queen, but it feels better psychologically if you actually hit your shots on her.
And that's just a tiny fraction of how tanks could be designed to better fit into the game.
@@jaysmi5467ironically Spilo and Samito just had an hour long conversation about 5v5 vs 6v6 that was much more productive than this one. I think hero design factors so much into this game and the biggest misconception around this conversation is that anyone involved wants OW1 back at all to be honest.
The toxicity around even _having the conversation of 6v6 back at all_ *really* stands out to a majority of casual players who would be more than okay with just _having more options in the game_ ; *I’ve seen it in these comments all the time.* It’s the easiest solution to retain interest in the game and we’re too afraid of one format somehow being dominant over the other to even do it without destroying queue times while OW2 also allegedly has this thriving player base that 5v5 has single-handedly maintained, etc. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever. At this point, 6v6 should be implemented out of pure spite for a playerbase so bitter to change that its devs couldn’t just nerf healing without adding bigger bullets and a role passive as compensation. The only ones not offering solutions are people like you that don’t even want to have this conversation. Go to Sam’s video and stop bitching here.
@@jaysmi5467 And you'd be the same person who would probably says "But 6v6 means double shield" or "6v6 means longer queue times" without thinking through it. The reason you are hearing the "6v6" take more is because people are tired of tanking in this game and they remember a time where they liked tanking (including myself). And ofcourse people blame tank more, because every mistake is HUGE. So it is more noticeable and loses the game more which isn't the tank players fault, however it is the design of OW2 which puts so much pressure on 1 person to make all the correct decisions and no wrong ones. And this is why there are more stomps, whichever tank makes the less mistakes win (no matter how minor the mistake) which feels like shit for EVERYONE. And I don't think you suggested any ways to fix this problem either, so why don't you make a comment which brings a solution instead of complaining about a comment with no solution. Solution: 6v6. Revert health changes back to OW1. Remove general role passives (the selfheal change is debatable however) Rammatra block does less mitigation. Mauga Overdrive only affects himself. Queen's Shout only gives her the extra health (still gives team speed). Hog, revert back to OW1 and remove damage reduction on vape and people get full ult charge when shooting him. Doom, keep as tank. Orisa, keep the same but make fortify headshot-able. Reinhardt, revert but keep the pin cancel. Zarya, revert. Sigma, no HP gain on grasp. Winston, you could keep his secondary fire but reverting him is fine too. Ball, revert. Dva, revert Defence Matrix. Sombra, stay the same. Mcree, revert. Bastion, revert. Mei, stay the same. Lifeweaver, his pull need to be a projectile skillshot OR it doesn't make you invulnerable. Bap, make lamp stay up for 1 second so it requires timing but revert his self heal (shift) back. Kiriko, just remove the invulnerability half of suzu (keep the cleanse). Brig, is a tough one (Maybe make inspire only proc during Rally but buff health pack to compensate?). Illari, maybe if you'd revert her to the first Illari iteration (due to having two tanks Illari might struggle with putting attention into both while also shooting her primary. Ofcourse OW needs more precise changes (CD numbers, damage numbers, healing numbers, health numbers & health/armour ratio for new tanks, etc.) but they are impossible for anyone to do without being able to change the game and see for themselves. And I might have missed some heroes who also need changing but I think I covered the more problematic ones.
Freedo is the definition of overcooked, he's constantly arguing a point that isn't even being discussed, is constantly deflecting what is being talked about, yaps on and on about nothing points, and uses his own biases to bring up an "objective" point while slandering everyone else who doesn't think the same. bro needs to go on a vacation, especially after playing 1000 games of tank - maybe that's why he's overcooked, because the gameplay is awful and will literally drive you crazy
I just want to play Doom without having the enemy team instantly switch to Orisa, Cassidy, sombra, kiriko, Ana
*you don’t like CC
@@kingvalor8265 bro doom has 1 CC! 1!!
I swear y’all act like he’s pausing the game for 3 minutes just because someone picks him. Meanwhile Orisa has anti CC, a push matrix and a long distance doom punch but I guess that’s perfectly ok?
Actual insanity
@@kingvalor8265 No, he likes to play the hero he enjoys witbout HAVING to play counterwatch EVERY MATCH
Obviously, as freedo says, instead of playing the hero you enjoy you need to counter swap off death. Guys remember this is a game. It isn't meant to be fun. You're not allowed to have fun. Only the dps and supports are. They can 1 trick the worst heroes in the game like junkrat and still get value. But if you want to 1 trick doomfist you need to be better than Quaked or hope you're in a dive meta.
@@gerharddamm5933 hang on hang on, slam and ult also slows, but I get your point. Honestly the issue with Orisa isn't the ability in a vacuum, it's the fact she can cycle them pretty well and just exist and hold a position for a ridiculously long time. Javelin alone is alright to play against (maybe they need to change up the hitboxes on it a little bit) but it's moreso she can javelin you, then stuff you onto a corner with spin, then when she's hit with any form of CC or gets low enough, fortify to get out. (or some other variation of that CD rotation).
However, the reason Orisa needs these busted cooldowns to remain somewhat relevant is that she has zero other options. Even RIENHARDT can use his pin to fly around the map and hell, even take control of a flank if he so wishes. Orisa is way too slow for any of that, and so especially at higher levels of play, she tends to get blasted from all sides because she can't really do anything other than live on main
TLDR; Orisa having all of that is NOT fine, but she HAS to have those abilities because she can't do anything else. A much more flexible, mobile, smaller (and certainly more skillful) tank like Doom can't have too many CD's or CC negation because he simply CAN do more than Orisa in positioning and playmaking, and giving him more will just make him much too powerful in the right hands
As a gold tank I think I hate maps like Dorado cause I see the enemy on high ground and we're not good or coordinated enough to get them off. And I'm not smart enough to adapt in time
As a winston main (not a one trick) I love dorado. Winston is insane on maps like dorado and watchpoint, there's a lot of high ground he can take advantage of.
Hampter: my high ground now
Learn Winton & Dorado will be ur favorite map
dorado used to be loved in OW1 but we had to tanks one could contest high ground the other can contest low ground or do something else and they could cycle between each other now theres one tank so thats not a thing any more
As a tank on Dorado specifically if you play play or doom or someone who can get behind there team and knock them off the highground into your team of piranhas
You guys need to just talk about 5v5 and 6v6, it’s frustrating that the whole community on every post is screaming about it, the devs are IGNORING IT, and you guys just keep claiming you don’t want to talk about it??
It’s kind of telling when you have the whole community screaming for 6v6 back while 5 new ability type shooters come out.
6v6 would breathe oxygen into the Overwatch community, playing the new heroes and maps with 6v6 is enough to keep players playing for years just like OW1!!! Who would’ve thought!!!
The biggest mistake blizzard made was to get rid of OW1
The way to make a better game is to bring back Overwatch 1
With added changes etc etc. It's a long road, but it's the better road.
We all know who else needs to be on this Podcast ! Yes, you’re thinking of him right now. #Samito also bring back 6v6
I genuinely think the devs need to talk about 6v6. Lets be honest the real reason they switched to 5v5 was because they needed a reason to change overwatch significantly, anything else that happened because of it was just conveniently happening. If you genuinely think they did it for queue times then you are an idiot, they simply needed to UPDATE the game and continue releasing content. Double shield could have also easily been fixed with a sigma and orisa rework plus some extra changes to shields like diminishing returns on using 2 shields at once or something idk like they got weaker if used near each other or shields are nerfed across the board.
Either way, with pve cancelled and the game doing decently well in terms of playerbase they just need to tell people 6v6 isnt happening. Every reason for them making overwatch 2 a sequel is completely gone. How people dont see it was a shitty marketing tactic that they’re trying to make work is beyond me. I do think they genuinely tried to make the game 5v5 but the game was ridiculously rushedZ Now the team is stuck between releasing content regularly and actually trying to make 5v5 work since they didn’t do enough fundamental changes when the game released.
Barely any significant reworks, they reworks they did do did absolutely nothing. No map changes, they are slowly doing them. The game was an unfinished, ridiculous mess that shouldn’t have happened when it did.
Also these high level players keep talking about queue timed when rhat only affected 1% of the FUCKING playerbase. Do these guys really think the devs made such monumental changes to the game so that a small percentage of their players get into games like 10-20 min quicker? I really dont think so
True. But there's also a question whether addressing the format argument is worth it for the devs. I feel like it would be such a big topic if they were to put out a blog post saying "nah, we ain't doing 6v6, it's old and trash". Just imagine all the videos, posts and shit. Feels like they're not talking about it to not cause anything bad, like real bad. Like when everyone was hella mad about pve being cancelled. I couldn't clear my feed off all those TH-cam videos for weeks.
But it's also true that the topic, if left unaddressed by devs, would only grow bigger, as we've seen for the last 8 months. From one video to every part of the community talking about it, making custom codes, making debates left and right etc. Sooner or later devs will be cornered and would need to make a decision. I guess we'll see, cause the current trend doesn't suggest any changes for 2024. And 2025 is a year of many big releases, ow devs would need to make a decision then.
Another idiotic one I here is less visual clutter, yet every ult from every new hero is a visual mess and adds just as much visual clutter.
@@garikekSo their choice is quick and painful outrage or slowly growing outrage. Both are as bad but I think addressing it and taking the blow is better
Way more then 1% affected by queue times not everyone lives in America, small country servers non tank queue time in smaller population country were 15+ in low diamond and beyond
@@dantheman1998 ikr? It's as if people forget that the devs get to decide how to design and implement the game they're making?
I enjoy these podcasts, and Im sure Freedo is a great person. I just find his discussion style too... patronizing?
it is very much patronizing, and often ends up projecting when someone doesn't agree with his view on the game.
@@Real_MisterSir I really think he might be a moron. He speaks as if his opinion is 100% correct and everyone who thinks otherwise is a child. He often drifts away from the point he’s making and just endlessly rambles without saying anything of substance.
@@lilbongchainz28701:03:36 look at how much of a nerd he sounds here,he’s obviously sneak dissing flats because just before this flats questioned freedo’s comment about jeff kaplan saying he never wanted 2-2-2 role lock. Flats wanted to see proof and you can tell that irked Freedo. You can also tell everyone except SVB thinks Freedo is annoying and weird. Even SVB shows annoyance toward him as well though lol
@@BloodRain222 bro, I used to enjoy his videos, then I watched his tank stream for a bit a couple of weeks ago, and realised he’s a lower rank than me but he has the ego of a pro player. I’m sure he’s nice enough as a person, but his takes are really bad and his delivery of his takes is really arrogant
I just find it wild that after the giga buff tanks patch we are all still sitting here in agreement that it still doesnt feel good or strong.
Its insane that we either still need more buffs or a fundamental change to feel good playing tank = /
Samito called it. I called it ahead of time. This wouldn't do shit for tanks. Two tanks was chaos but it was FUN.
@@Vastspartan Honestly 2 tanks wasn't that chaotic. The problem is the counterswap game on tank because there is only 1 breaks the role. Also having to put the stats of 2 tanks into one just unbalances certain picks.
I still think the "downfall" started with the passives and projectile size
@@yabitoI don't think the projectile sizes are too bad. Role passives I agree on though. The only passive that should stay is the ult charge reduction for damaging/healing tanks
@@kierancalverley220 personally I’m actually a big fan of the DPS passive too. Crazy, I know. Giving DPS a reason to shoot things beyond just getting the elim wasn’t a bad idea in concept; It was the fact that the passive was implemented in response to Support power creep rather than what it should have been for: Tank 1v1s.
Support healing should be cut by 15% instead of 25% to keep them viable as a backline worth defending. The remaining 10-15% should be a general reduction in the effectiveness of over-health like shields + armor.
Tanks in OW 2 is very very powerful (because of all the stats padding) but playing it feels like shit, its a miserable experience
either you stomp or get stomped. That's the 5v5 OW2 experience the devs apparently love.
(Hitbox size). Zarya and JQ perpetually feel good from this alone.
Freedo saying the design was for one tank was crazy lol
That is something that the devs said, it's not out of his ass
@@pigeon_9161 ?? Where?
freedo payed as always
@@pigeon_9161thats not true
@@pigeon_9161stop pulling sh!t put your a$$ like the dumba$$ that compares 6v6 supporters to flat earth believers😭🤣
Bogur seems to understand well, we want ow2 to be fun not boring as shit. Marvel rivals to the rescue for the fun it seems
He legit seems to fully speak for the community at this point. Especially when he was emoting to Freedom's rant 😂
27:00 And thats why Lunar Colony's 2nd point was my favorite point of any 2cp map because they tried to open up the amount of ways you could engage from at the main point, but if you got held at the hall between first and second you were screwed because it was just a single entrance with a pathetic door to the side that lead to the same sightline. My problem was never 2cp as a concept it was the map design for 2cp being so unfriendly to flankers.
THIS THIS THIS!!! It's such a shame that 2cp is removed from the game when all 2cp maps are 1 additional choke away from being a good map (and addressing the stalling on 2nd point of course).
@@garikek To be fair, there was the problem of ultimate stacking to just obliterate 2nd point if you won first teamfight of the round on attack, but that could literally just be solved by clearing everyone's ult charge upon the point flip. Then you could give the mode back its stack timer from early OW1 to compensate and combine that with map fixes 2CP would've been great. Temple of Anubis B was also another point that was ridiculously close to being just as good as lunar colony B.
There are some maps in 2cp that are just irredeemable though and really should not return if 2cp was to be revamped as it would require so much tinkering that it wouldn't even be the same map at that point, that's how fundamentally ingrained the problems of those maps can get. (Looking at you, Paris and Volskaya)
If you want 5v5 to work you need to rework more than 2 heroes every 6 months, rework more than 1 map every 3 months, actually address problem areas when doing a rework instead of just removing counterplay or buffing the numbers, possibly add a pick or ban phase. Basically if you want 5v5 to work you need to do all the work that is typically required of sequel not add a shop and remove a player. If we cant go back to 6v6 then the solution is the devs need to work their ass off to create an actual sequel and possibly even optimize all the characters and maps for the format they arbitrarily decided was better.
There is no way to balance 5v5. 1 tank means uneven power distribution in that role. No amount of reworks can make this balance-able because tanks have different kits with natural counters. Only way to stop that is to give every tank the same kit which isn’t gonna happen
was playing dva, had a positive kd, had a widowmaker on my team who would not swap off while getting dove by winston sombra and tracer yet at the end of the game when we lost and they had a negative kd they said "holy shit tank diff" This is the tank experience.
So true
I like the crazy ideas part, i wish we had a "wild" mode to test all of them instead of imagining what it could be, but i don't think they have the dev time to do that, gotta make a random time limited mode to sell skins right guys? Live service really causes mediocrity, i wish the devs could just do stuff without caring about the next cosmetic drop, but that is a lost battle tbh.
I agree with the sentiment, but the devs definitely DO have time to implement crazy modes. One random person in workshop can make pretty much any crazy mode you can dream of on their own time. In only one day for example, I made a working flight simulator in Overwatch. In only one day, I made about half of an Overwatch classic mode. The AAA company that is Blizzard can easily do 100x more than I can. The problem is the management layer that plagues all of game dev, making even the smallest creative decisions into laboring planning sessions designed to squeeze maximum profit.
This is what total mayhem should be!
I miss Experimental so much
The funny thing is we did have the experimental mode in OW1 where stuff like this got tested out -so the idea that the all-hands-on-deck dev team of OW2 wouldn't have time to do it, is kinda odd. I mean they're doing weird shit all the time anyways, this would just introduce a more sanitized environment to test the wilder stuff out instead of cutting off the edges and throwing things straight into the main game with no public tests whatsoever.
@@Real_MisterSir To be entirely fair our expermential patch in OW1 was basically a preview patch. It was rare they ever tried anything that didn't make it to live.
Flats bringing up the fact that devs are so silent it’s deafening is honestly the scariest thought . Yea it may be about 6v6 however they have never spoken about tanks or 6v6 just try to misdirect the community about their problems
Leaning into the fps is a loss. But good for business. Sooo
58:28 is he ok ?
Its Freedo
Not sure what you're on about. He's making a good point here, and Flats even nods in agreement after he makes the point. The point being: In OW1, the game was so far on the positioning moba side of things, that aim hackers could get regularly clowned on because the aiming part of the game was relatively irrelevant compared to other soft skills.
Bogur was cooking his take just wait 5 mins 🙄
@@KuroKittenI mean bro if you invest 100/100 points into aim and have a wood rank positioning then of fucking course you're gonna lose even with hacks. Generally good aim players were all diamond+ in ow1. My friend has lvl 10 faceit and he never played ow, the first season he played he ended up mid masters. Basic understanding of the game and too good of an aim for the rank. But if he was as braindead as an average cheater he'd be gold at best, cause those cheating kids all have room temperature iq.
@@KuroKitten You're missing the point. That is how a game like Overwatch should be. If someone with the game sense and general understanding of a bronze player could dominate a GM lobby using an aimbot, that is a massive issue. The fact that they got stomped because they didn't have anything other than aim shows that the game was properly balanced.
You need to stop bringing on freedo on these discussions.
He has lost his mind. He is completely delusional and his ego has gone through the roof. He dismisses all counter arguments and just assumes he is right about everything and then rambles on about it.
Not to
Mention his recent deranged tweet
What did he say?
Completely agree
@@jeromus7799I believe he compared 6v6 supporters to people that believe in the flat earth conspiracy💀
@@nahaight1373He is actually unhinged lmao
Facts facts facts ;). Haha.
Please stop inviting freedo 😭
Why
@3:10:17 Danteh basically roasts Freedo. I have a feeling none of them actually like Freedo either 😂
because he's not interested in overwatch as much as he's interested in being a contrarian. In a bigot's words, he's a "pink haired hipster feminist." He contributes to nothing to the conversation and hasn't in any of his appearances in the podcast.
@@KuroiHoshiVwhy you hating so hard he just has arguments you disagree with chill tf out
@@duel2803The hate is kinda warranted though because Freedo gets super toxic with his arguments at times. For example he recently made a video that was titled something like "6v6 advocates are the flat earthers of Overwatch" where he just says people who think 6v6 is a good idea are dumbass morons for the whole video while making a bunch of strawman arguments.
I am here from the anti-widow mafia to declare that widows one shot like hanzos should be removed. Nobody likes one shots in a hero shooter. if arrow man cannot 1 shot neither should point and click adventure hero. That will be all.
1-shots are fine, but they should be dodgeable in some way (counterplay). You can't dodge a Widow shot, that's why it sucks. Credit to Hanzo, you can dodge him, but it's very difficult at close range, esp because of his rate of fire
@@P-39_Airacobra Even if you can dodge then that requires you to see them first. You can't turn a corner and instantly be removed from the game by a tracer. 1 shot kills have no place in a hero shooter. If sigma cannot have his extremely skillful 1 shot i see no reason why widow needs the easiest one shot in the game to be a hero.
On behalf of the wifow mafia, i declare that your take is hot ass 🔥! The kits are fundamentally different with widows entire identity being around a one shot and hanzos identity never has been, especially if you compare their abilities ✊✊
@@JoltOfJoy Widow's kit is fundamentally flawed and should not be in a hero shooter game.
@@JoltOfJoy wtf YES HANZO'S IDENTITY WAS HIS ONE SHOT lmfao ur smoking if you don't think that's true, also I think widow should be able to 1 shot, but not in 5v5 post season 9, the fact that WIDOW can one shot but HANZO can't is just insane, hanzo is at a disadvantage because it's not hitscan
58:27 BOGUR IS KILLING ME LMFAOOOOOOO
7v7 no hero limits
7 Wintons
They tested it. Didnt work
@@Vastspartanin their opinion it didn’t work. Knowing now, time and time again, what they think works or will work, id wager 7v7 would genuinely be better lmfao.
@@Vastspartan you think they wanted to see 6 winstons in OWL....? doesn't take a genius
I think the main and most immediate thing they could do is to stop designing heroes to be the balance in the game, stop making brigs to nerf dive or annas to nerf heal creep or orisa to counter hog/mauga etc. Make characters to have an actual identity, most heroes in ow really don't
48:39 - Did we lean too far into the fps side of overwatch?
Yes. In my opinion, Everyone leaned too hard into the fps side of overwatch. The community (especially the dps players), and also the devs. The portion of the playerbase that liked the moba elements that made the game special were shouted down - especially after goats - and were mocked as no-skill casuals whose opinions weren’t valid. At some point Blizzard decided that it was too hard to balance the game around being an fps-moba hybrid and i guess they figured that the majority of their playerbase favors dps, so they said ”screw it, it’s an fps”.
I said from the minute they announced 5v5 that the only way this shift in design goals ends well is if the team-fighting aspect of OW goes away in favor of making all the roles self-reliant - aka Deathmatch. Now here we are, the map design is fundamentally changing how the game is played, 2/3 roles are self-reliant, and the tank role is in a crisis because its the only role that isn’t.
you can tell that the playerbase is adapting to this more selfish style of gameplay too. For example, I can’t remember the last time I saw an ult combo. Everyone used to know how to execute ult combos, even in quickplay. Even without comms. Now, I rarely see them happen.
The devs have more-or-less said that they want to design OW to be more aligned with the average player experience (aka: solo-queue friendly). Therefore they want to move away from the game being played around team-comps and hero synergies - things that were core to the gameplay in OW1 that made it unique.
So yeah, they leaned too hard into fps balancing. And I really don’t see them moving away from that. But they will fall on their face because tank & support aren’t “fps” roles. The existence of those roles in this game will always cause problems for the direction they’re trying to go in.
I really wish they had balanced the game around becoming more moba-like. Pity.
freedo not beating the shill allegations with this one
Shill allegations are unfounded. Deal with it.
@@josephreynolds2401 he has the worst takes that also happen to allign with everything blizz does (everything they do is garbage) I cant even take him seriously with these takes he has
@@dtg9k355 You haven't been listening if you think he favors Blizzard. He has been a critic since the channel started and his whole tenure. You're making shit up, flat earther.
@@josephreynolds2401he literally has a 9 min porsche ad as one of his latest videos
@@branBRippin OW has a Porsche ad. Get your story straight bucko
"I like silly things" - Bogur
I think the fundamental issue is that tank controls the game unless both tanks are relatively equal, then you have no impact
I’m begging you to stop letting Freddo on this podcast. “Even a dps player hacking couldn’t beat two tanks”. It’s called a good format, crazy concept I know.
That’s what he’s trying to say, that two tanks and their synergies are broken
@@Mikeyboy779so implement 6v6 and change the synergies that made them problematic in the first place? Why is Overwatch changing only acceptable in certain circumstances when the game is in dire need of new content? If we constantly have to reinvent in either format, why not do it in one that we know worked in the past and had much more direct problems to tackle than 5v5 has in two years with far more consistent updates and game-shaking balance changes.
@@Mikeyboy779 I played OW1 as my main daily game after the latter half of 2020, arguably the peak of the franchise (it definitely was if you ask me), so I completely and uttely disagree. I was a Tracer and Ana main.
A game where you can beat your enemy by playing smarter than them is inherently far more interesting than a game where the best aim wins. And what made Overwatch so awesome in the first place was the blend of BOTH of these qualities, mixing FPS and MOBA. The tank synergies needed balancing, there's no doubt about that, but the removal of the second tank was like sweeping the dirt under the carpet. Like cool, now the rest of the house looks clean, but you can't walk over the carpet without tripping and I'm pretty sure something has started living underneath it and shit's starting to get moldy.
Go look at OW1 gameplay, or check out the community reactions to the announcement of 5v5. NO-ONE thought that we needed 5v5, even when actively playing inside the worst metas of 6v6, because the issue was a queue time and hero balance/design problem.
Let's not forget that OW1 had a surprisingly healthy playerbase, even after 3 YEARS of no content updates and 8+ minute DPS queue times, but now that we're getting constant balance updates and crazy gamemodes etc. NOW the players are getting tired of it?
Bro his rant at 58 minutes general made no fucking sense.
It was definitely a weird thing to say. Is it the tanks being broken or the hacker being soo dumb that he can’t flank and work around the shield to kill everyone?
That’s why Flats said “That’s just bad positioning.”
flats crushed freedo's opinion.
When?
@@AlexTheHorridthe entire podcast
I wish Freedo just wasn’t invited in these, he sounds like what Blizzards non pr opinions would be
If this is about the Jeff Kaplan thing you can just Google it.
3:18:05 Bogur calling him out on Sigma's ult change was HILARIOUS
One of the most low key nerfs to Queen (as a plat Queen OTP) is the inability to actually displace tanks anymore with knife. Pulling a tank out of position was like the one thing you could do against hog and the other annoying sustain tanks and it’s gone for now so 😢.
Dude freedo is slippin, "i dont come here to force my opinion" after casually mentioning overwatch was never meant to be 2-2-2, based on the "data". Changing his argument from 6v6 bad to 2-2-2 bad I guess. Yeah ok, the game released as open queue format but it was still 6v6, later to be refined as 2-2-2.
I think he was bullied by two tanks. Bro gets unhinged when ever he talks about “tank synergies” or even the thought that people miss 6v6.
I feel like it’s crazy that Freedo is supposed to represent lower rank players with takes as bad as “rein dominated the lower ranks” lmao
This on top of the samito + spilo 2 hour discussion (it was much more honest than this one, though flats was actually spitting here today) but still, we're eating good this morning.
But also freedo is still as insufferable to listen to as last time. He sounds like he's here to regurgitate his talking points instead of actually listening to and understanding other people on the podcast. Having different takes is good for discussion, but not when you're discussing in bad faith.
Once again, look to the 2 hour discussion between samito and spilo for an example of an honest discussion, I wouldn't even call that a debate with how much common ground they managed to find just be listening to each other instead of worrying about what they were gonna say to slam dunk the other guys point
Freedo s comment section on his channel roasts him all the time. He's a complete joke and doesn't belong here
Fredo is great at saying alot while at the same time saying nothing
Boomer/Paid politician
Bogur scrolling on his computer every time Freedo starts talking is funny af lol
I think fundamentally solo tank is just too much pressure/responsibility to be putting on one player where that simply isn't the case with any other class, it's incredibly exhausting.
Sidenote SVB you're a great host!
I didn't believe it till I tried it but open queue is actually fun. If you're in the metal ranks, the queue times are actually better and with the 25% headshot reduction, the health changes actually don't feel that bad
I just wished they made it so you couldn’t pick more than 2 of each role like svb was saying, playing perma goats is much less fun
Open queue quickplay is the most fun i've had in ow2. The only time it isn't is when people take it too seriously, which is sad. It's unbalanced quickplay guys, calm down.
@@skyler7017 or amp the DPS passive so it's good to have someone applying it
@@scoundrel142it is fun until one team goes 3 tanks two supports , and they win or both teams go 3 tanks two support and nothing dies for 3 minutes
players are just going to gravitate to goats meta. its just fun now because it’s not the main mode
This was a pretty good episode i really like how SVB moderated this one, spending less time of lengthy rant and encouraging people to say their piece quicker keeps the debate intersting as more opinions are shared.
Great work, huge thumbs up and keep it up.
Why is Freedo here, a podcast is supposed to be entertaining and this guy just make this a drag to listen to
I would like stats to see how much Freedo speaks, because to me it seems as if he's there to fill space mostly. No offense to the guy, I'm sure he's nice, but against those other three... he doesn't have much to do.
he speaks a lot but says nothing of substance
I haven't watched the Freedo Response, but the guy must have mentally broke. Dude didn't come to debate, he came to drop his bag of ideas on the table and say "Here's your fix, done". Do I believe Samito calling 5v5 supporters are Shills? No. We can be adults, that's not the case, it's COMMON SENSE. Do I think Samito is far more right in what he has stated? Absolutely. The guy hasn't really been wrong, and 6v6 would solve a lot of problems. Do I think 5v5 could work? Yes, HOWEVER, To do so, would require changes to Overwatch 2 that would no longer make the game unique.
Just ban Freedo from participating
ban ALL SUPPORT PLAYERS from participating. Their opinions shouldn't matter. Game is literally easy mode on support role and has been since S2
@@johnsonspark171 Dps passive. New suports are just broken like Kiriko and LifeWeaver, it is not a role problem
@@sasorioftheredsand4348 yes it is. There is only ONE balanced Support and that's Mercy. That's sad. Every other support is unkillable and does way too much. Literally easy mode for bad kids to climb. There is no world where supports like Kiriko and Baptiste should exist. Remove all immortalities from supports and then we can start talking
@@johnsonspark171 So only two supports have immo but all of them besides Mercy are immortal? do you not know Mercy survives the most in most fights?
@@sasorioftheredsand4348 LW has an IMMO. I really don't care since I quit that deadass game in S8
58:28 Bingus said so much with no words 😂
Bogur's reaction was so good, he was thinking "I don't think Fredo can have a dumber take"
@@bradmiles1984 i think you are projecting tbh, the guy was clearly tired af, if you ask me i think he was not paying attention, bogur doesn't seem to care that much about this stuff
@dgiorr maybe but the timing is awfully strange, and he doesn't do that again at any other point in the stream. It's possible but would have to be quite the coincidence.
1:17:00 I love how flats completely throws freedo argument in his face showing his argument actually could be used for 6v6 😂
i think people are starting not to care anymore. Flats said it was good people are hating on the game cause at least it’s some interaction but when it’s been almost nothing but negative shit it’s kinda hard to care ab what they have to offer in the next year and the rest of this oke
> "we don't want characters with high skill expression dominate games"
> "playing tank is depressing you only can outsustain and orisa/hog/mauga meta is stupid and boring"
Flats is cooking, AB hasn't been making OW brand live like Riot does with League. No show, cinematic or music to keep the hype and attract new players. They have to wake up or there will always be a new game to take the spotlight.
They DID start doing a bunch of colabs tho, it’s worth taking note of that the la serafim colab was really good for the game
Yeah it's crazy with how good the shorts and things are just imagine if those would of been spun into entire movies or tv shows like league did with arcane.
@@bradmiles1984 i rly hope they do make a show but that have to make sure it’s not rushed, all the stars aligned in the conception of arcane and I just hope that they don’t rush it and make yet another shitty video game adaptation because lord knows we have enough of those in circulation.
@@skyler7017 Yeah I mean they make it with the quality level they did the shorts. It could even be like a variety show of one off episodes that could even be expanded things from the origins shorts like an episode that is the job junk and hog went on that got them banned from Junkertown or an episode of echo being made. Could show things from the past too like an episode of Cass and Ashe when they started deadlock. So many things they could expand on.
How to make Mauga actually fun to play/play against:
- Remove Volatile Chaingun
- Incendiary Chaingun is now on his right (because a left-handed POV feels weird)
- Incendiary Chaingun now deals a little more damage and more reliably burns targets
- His new right click throws 5 small grenades in front of him (5 meter range) that detonate after 1 second and each explosion deals 40 damage, also burns targets (no instant impact explosion, similar to a more spread-out Junkrat passive)
- His abilities can now burn deployables (I just dislike deployables)
- Cardiac Overdrive now heals him based on how many heroes are burning (40HP/s per burnt target?)
- Cardiac Overdrive also heals allies in range (15HP/s per burnt target?)
- Remove his synergy with Ashe's dynamite/Torb's Ult (too strong with new Cardiac Overdrive)
- Berserker Passive removed (no more overhealth when dealing crits)
Not perfect and numbers definitely need adjusting but this concept allows Mauga to be a fun aim-reliant hero with target prioritzation that can easily destroy deployables and create space with his lethal close-range right-click and new-found synergy (Overrun or Cage Fight + Grenades), while still maintaining plenty of counterplay against him (absorbing his grenades or using shields, bubbles, suzu, anti nade, ...)
It's not 5v5 or 6v6, they just can't balance, and you HAVE to balance top down, they add too many variables and try to balance for different skill levels and it just doesn't work
It’s impossible to balance 5v5 but in 6v6 it’s totally possible
@sasorioftheredsand4348 nope, 5v5 can be balanced, tanks have bigger hit boxes and inherently need to take space per their role, thus they need inherent survivability.. they should also have less damage but more cc.. ppl don't like this cause they want op damage tanks but that's just not their role.. also, balance should happen top down, unless you're gonna have different balance changes that literally change depending on your rank, stop trying to control bad skill of players and force them to get better instead of crutch characters and the such
@@joshuafruth6420 One role can`t dominate the game. if tanks are op as a solo character and I cant kill them as Dps is that my mistake?, that does not make sense
@sasorioftheredsand4348 you're supposed to kill support/dps first, then the tank, unless the tank greatly overextends itself, that's how mobas work, also, the tank shouldn't be able to secure quick kills, yes, they should win attrition fights 1v1 or 1v2 at times, but it's on you to disengage at that point
@@joshuafruth6420 Comparing Overwatch with league/dota as a moba and saying the tank should be the one do die last is outrages, punishing tanks need to be a thing, they cant just do wherever they want all the times. 1 players holds all the game hostage?. That is a very bad design problem in a fps hero shooter