This episode was recorded on 22/09/23. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: on.soundcloud.com/NHgwE Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265a
As a gold-stuck tank-main, Yeatle's thoughts are *precisely* echoing my own; it's a shame that "streamers" get dismissed by online community noise, because it's rare that non-streamers can speak eloquently on their own experiences like this. 1. Single tank lost all of the nuance of combining offtank utility, damage is still power-crept to melt tanks, and specific abilities are designed to be anti-tank/anti-healer so playing front-line is excessively high pressure. 2. Damage being power-crept to melt shields (OW1's legacy of bad shield design) and kill tanks means non-tanks die too fast > Non-tanks dying too fast means supports get more healing output and tools to save non-tanks from being killed > playing tank becomes un-fun due to the demand of playing under that constant pressure to mitigate that damage output. 3. Healer tools being isolated to each Support hero independently means balance is always around these "impactful" abilities -- anti-heal (Queen/Nade), cleanse (suzu), kill-blocking (lamp/suzu), and now yoink (Lifeweaver pull) means playing tank is just a job of soaking damage and waiting for the enemy team to screw-up and let your team kill. No more "initiator" role, no more "disruption" role (except *maybe* for Doomfist masters), and the utility of the offtank was shifted to Supports to some degree... Tank role is just a sack of health, shields are still just health buffers, and the game revolves around supports............. 4. Tools that are "all or nothing" like anti-heal or suzu or lamp. Moira isn't getting mentioned, though her aoe healing is amazing, because her healing can be countered through damage pressure and she isn't flipping outcomes purely on a single ability use... Anti-heal needs to be changed to *absorb* healing to a capped amount and Suzu needs to not immune targets and instead just cleanse with a slight heal... Mercy's damage boost vs Zen's is another example - you cannot counter Mercy's beam (without killing her) because she applies the boost to an ally and allows that DPS to pick off targets that aren't even aware of her boost being in effect - Discord orb, to the contrary, announces you're the target and allows you to hide from snipers or get to your tank's shield. 5. Lastly, non-tanks die too fast which puts pressure on supports to save them which means Blizzard inevitably buffs their toolkit to save non-tanks from instant death. 200hp is the problem since tanks have 500+ health. I'm not saying everyone needs 500 health - but seeing how Bastion has 300 with armor and numerous other DPS have been given baseline health buffs, it's obvious that damage can never be properly balanced when one set of targets soak 1000+ damage and other targets only soak ~200. Giving everyone baseline 300 (just above the 240 damage breakpoint for sniper headshots with boost iirc) and then using that new metric to balance healing output (goal of reducing healing spam) and thus indirectly nerfing a lot of these tools... Tanks are still tougher, but Reinhardt's firestrike balance flipping for 10 damage (90>100) is an obvious clue that non-tank health is too low to allow Blizzard to properly balance the game for 5v5. Addendum: Shields being giant health buffers is an outdated mechanic; I'd really like to see the entire design reworked to absorb in a "staged" manner, allowing more visual feedback to the integrity of a tank's shield while reducing how much damage is needed to break it -- but increasing regen so "dancing" a shield to block intermittent burst damage is the new role of shield blocking... Rein walking forward with a giant wall is no longer the meta, Bastion/Symm are too strong at tank busting because they were designed with shield-breaking as giant health pools - I want to see this fundamentally change to be closer to how Sigma has to juggle his shield in/out with other cooldowns or become more like Orisa's cooldown cycling brawling.
So why play the game man. It makes sense that these streamers do because they gotta eat but for just a guy like you and me ? We should be enjoying our win, not being happy it's over
@@5080yensome of us have been around since beta/S1 and want to see the game succeed and throughout this following and investment of time and energy, don’t want to just “stop playing” because you feel relieved from a W instead of happy for a W. What the real killer is is, Blizzard as a company and where they are going with the game which is obviously the wrong way and it’s been going the wrong way more than the right way and we are really crossing our fingers that they can realize what’s going on, and listen to the community.
Tanks get blamed the least . Have you ever played dps the worst unneeded role in the game you are bascly hold to the standart dont get any help from anybody and kill 5 peopl every teamfight against supports that do everything better then you and tanks that basicly cant realy ever die
@@xythiera7255 Tell me you don't actually play tank without telling me. Any time I pop off or do kind of average on dps, I get hyped up and endorsed, any time I pop off on tank or do average, I get told to swap, blamed, yelled at, abused and called racist remarks. Let me guess, you play one game of quick play every week?
I understand his take tho. He's consistent. He likes the FPS aspect of OW, not the RPG team builder aspect. He wants to load, play hog, shoot shit and kill. Playing Rein and gathering everyone like an RTS and right clicking the enemy like a Zerg isn't necessarily fun for everyone. I kinda agree with his take, it's fun for a little while, but it gets old. Taking angles, flanking, finding value NOT on the main lane. Those aspects can be fun even on tank. He's an FPS player who enjoys the FPS aspects of OW, even if all the other RPG/Moba stuff exists.
Honestly, I think Salt's take is hypocritical and crap. He complains about Rein's one-shot that's easy to punish while advocating for Hog's unpunishable one-shot to come back? Seriously? Also, he complains that a team-oriented oriented character in a TEAM GAME is bad? Really? Finally, he gets mad that Hog was nigh on deleted from the game while saying Rein shouldn't exist? What if the same was said of his beloved Hog, arguably one of the characters who is the most unhealthy for the state of the game. I'm a support main with no dog in this fight but I get heated when I hearva take this hypocritical and utter nonsense.
@@GriFFonRec4 The moment he decided to throw insults to anyone who liked rush comps he loss the argument. He said people who like rush are bad at the game. What comps are allowed to exist to him? Can't rush, can't poke, and can't dive. My guy basically wants to play CoD literally. He couldn't even point out why he hated Rein aside from just describing Rein. It gets even dumber when you go with the idea of its fun at first but gets old. Well so does every single thing just about. Thats not an argument either. He is free to just dislike Rein but don't bother explaining it when you can only pull weak reasons out your ass.
32:59 I'm leaning more towards the fact that salt's takes are soo dumb and hypocritical regarding the most different heroes... so he thinks sombra not being able to hack when getting shot is the same as kiriko not being able to tp while taking damage?? Oye sombra can translocate away when taking damage. It's the point that you run away when you being pressured...
@@morocuda2090Flats is a paid shill who will say anything Reddit and Tik Tok posts for a quick buck. The only reason he and Spilo sound remotely similar ( love Spilo btw) is becuase of that very truth. Flats and other "former OWL" creators knew about PVE being canceled when the developers did and lied about its release up until the reveal to make more income before the fallout.
@@FlightX101the only complaints I really hear about pin is just its janky hitbox, from both the Rein and the victim. Sometimes what looks like a clear pin just causes the enemy to bounce off like a trampoline and sometimes the enemy is suctioned in from several feet away.
Gotta love yeatle, clearly thinks 6v6 is better but he knows it ain't coming back so he doesn't even mention it. All he says is "without two tanks it's harder..."
I love how salt either brings a good take I've never thought about or the most unhinged brain dead shit I've ever heard there is no in between xD great podcast! love it
I think all his takes are valid. He's a Hog main who is getting his hero reworked because of weebo waifu's ability being broken. You can't ask hammonds to like Sombra, Ana, Cass, or Brig. Similarly, you can't ask Hogs to like Reins.
@@Ajoi14I haven’t seen the whole vid yet but, You can’t base balance of the game around your favorite character. Nerf Suzu so hog won’t be broken? He was throwing his hook across the map and one shotting you for looking at him.He was broken anyway. I play genji and hate mei I don’t think she should be nerfed b/c a bad matchup though.
@Cummster Hog was not broken he you played his counters. Orisa, Ana, and even Reaper (a good Reaper) could completely shut down hog. You'll probably argue that you shouldn't have to play his counters just to be able to contest against him, but then I'll argue that that's a 5v5 format problem, not a hog problem. Blizzard was the one that turned this game into counterwatch, not Roadhog. Blizzard apparently wants u to rely on counters to get anywhere in this game so Hog shouldn't have to be punished for something that wasn't his doing.
@@joeyu498 i didnt watch this one yet. But he was complitely on with gaslighting the comunity as spoiled brats last few episodes. He didnt even played devils advocate as he ussualy do. He was absolitely sucking blizzard. Hard
I disagree. how can he be a good host if hes not playing the devils advocate? you have to be as neutral as possible as the host and to an extent id say he did a good job, its impossible for a human to not have an opinion so him saying his feelings as a way to allow the debate to continue is perfectly justified @@racmanov
Doom is very good tho if u know how to play him. Especially if u compare him to ball... both are hard to play yes, thats why u dont see them, but doom is both easier and better than ball rn atleast
@@hambster9759that’s a potential bias tho, just cuz you see one or two dudes *ahem*ZBRA*ahem*QUAKD*ahem* do really well, doesn’t mean that tank is universally good. Like a strong sojourn will still roll a lobby even tho sojourn isn’t as strong as she used to be, or a strong Zen can tap heads still. They aren’t super top tiers, except maybe for Zen, but with all of them the players skill makes the hero look good.
@@hambster9759I do agree with you tho that Doom > Ball, cuz doom uniquely has better escape tools than ball does. Like ball needs to have super strong map knowledge to use the geometry to move, whereas doom can just press ult and he’s gone in most situations if he sets up correctly.
@@hambster9759 dont worry im aware of that im a doom otp but doom is NOT better than every other tank (ie: orisa,zar last season) as much as i love playing doom calling him the best tank in the game is a stretch.
Based on what I'm hearing, Suzu needs to be changed immediately. It's the one complaint across the board from everyone in this entire debate. Every tank wants to do something, they get suzu protection. You make a play as tank and suzu saves the person. Anything you want to do as tank gets stopped immediately by suzu. The thing I've seen the most is just remove the invuln and it's fine.
It's called suzu wait then kill..You should be pressuring kiriko so she can waste her cooldowns..So you won't have to deal with those scenarios..Problem is it's hard to do that if orisa is there..I still go after them..I still apply pressure the more they focus me they are not doing there job..Now my team is making plays..Example moira..Widowmaker running the room I got pressure her..Support hard carrying I go kill them..I don't just sit back and cry that suzu is stopping me from doing things..I make the player waste there cooldowns..
@@tryingtochangemyways5074 The big issue with the takes they had for Suzu were that, especially with Salt, they seemed to forget that there are... more players in the game? Suzu does not exist to counter you, it exists to help buffer one bad situation. If you're the only one being countered, and Suzu is always around to counter your play, you're not making plays enough and your team is doing literally nothing to apply pressure with you. One if the big examples was them saying Kiriko can TP in, Suzu, and fix all the problems. Have they even played Kiriko? The golden rule is that you never waste both cooldowns, especially to TP in and save a teammate, because you're just signing your own death warrant.
the amount of times I've shattered 4 or 3 people and they get suzued, or even shatter 5 but Suzu is thrown right before they fall and they immediately get back up... these are trying times
@@godzillaenthusiast9687I honestly believe that shatter shouldn't be cleansable. It's ult, for Christ sake, and it's not even that good, considering other ults, on character that doesn't have that good of a damage output on his own. Countering ult with something that has 14 seconds cooldown is just mean.
I love spilo & flats on here. They def have the best takes and are also much better at explaining why. Spilo specifically is just so damn well spoken and articulate
What I didn't like about Flats is that when asked for solutions, he just says "there's nothing to do". I don't know if he is one of those content creators who are constantly criticizing the devs, but I hope he is not, because that would be very hypocrite. I say this because, as some may not know, the way you do constructive criticism is to give ways of improving the thing you are saying it's wrong
@@LuigixD Flats is just a high level player and streamer, not a game designer. He can point out what feels bad and what his insights are and not know a perfect solution to fix those issues. He could have worded it better, but instead of wasting time proposing a flawed change, he just leaves it to other people to find the right changes
@@charchadonto That's why I specify people who say "why don't the devs just fix this" without giving an actual solution. If Flats isn't one of those, then I have no problem with him
as a tank player in shambles this episode was THERAPEUTIC. im going to be sleeping good for at least a week listenning to this every night. for a long time i felt voiceless and this cast REPRESENTED WELL!!
Here are the 2 biggest problems with support: 1. 1 less tank in 5v5 means that support healing is distributed over a smaller healthpool = much too high healing per player 2. Immortalities have gotten stronger and are stackable (e.g. Kiriko cleanse + Lifeweaver Pull). Baptiste lamp used to be the only immortality and : a) It left the player under lamp at low HP b) It did not bring the player to a better position c) It did not remove status effects d) It was on a very large cooldown These downsides have been ignored with recent immortalities These 2 problems combined together cause most frustrations with supports atm
I didn't think about the first point even though it's so obvious which is why I appreciate you mentioning it. What I have to add is that the same goes for damage. This is why tanks are getting killed in like 1 second and if they do survive they're full hp in another 2 seconds. It's why tanks aren't really allowed to make mistakes. My point is that nerfing healing wouldn't be enough just like nerfing damage wouldn't be enough. Both have to go down. Sure they could buff hp but I think on a long term perspective it'd be horrible to balance
I disagree with the first point. No healing is going to out heal burst damage. Ass the seasons progress, all of these hero’s are seeing higher damage numbers and outputs. Supports have all this utility to make up for the lack of off tank. I find it funny that tank players complain about kiri cleanse, but when the sombra is always hacking them or the Ana throws her entire kit into them, they praise and love Suzu and everything that it can do.
@@TheRealKush420 Buffing supports has become a necessary evil because of the removal of an off tank. This is one of many examples of how Overwatch was not fundamentally made to be 5v5. For Overwatch to work in 5v5, many characters (and maps) would have had to have been redesigned from the ground up which the dev team will NEVER do. I could go on for ages on all the problems that 5v5 causes that people don't necessarily notice but just to as examples: 1. Maps like Havannah or Dorado have difficult to access high-ground. This wasn't a problem in Overwatch 1 because attackers could contest highground with a mobile off-tank. In Overwatch 2, you are fighting an uphill battle if you don't have a mobile tank on these maps. Notice how recent maps do not have any kind of inaccessible high-ground, as they are made in mind that there is only 1 tank. 2. One-shots are a bigger problem than ever before because a tank cannot be in two places at once. It is very difficult for a tank to contest a Widowmaker while also protecting the team. This was not an issue with 6v6 and is another oversight of 5v5 3. Lack of off tank to peel for supports has made it so supports must become much more survivable in order to protect themselves. This leads to frustrating game design as it necessitates strong immortalities, burst healing, and movement abilities There are so many more points I could mention but I don't want to make this comment too long. Point is, the issue you're describing is a necessary evil that just makes the game play worse for everyone solely because of 5v5. 5v5 can work, but the devs would have to rework fundamentals of the game, including reworking numerous old heroes and maps basically from the ground up. Since the devs would never do this because it would require too much time and ressources for too little return on investment, the only other solution is too bring back the off-tank, and hence bringing back 6v6, which is equally unlikely to happen. These problems are likely here to stay for the forseeable future.
@@Larg_Man I completely agree… I feel like 6v6 was better and more enjoyable for players. If the devs would have just reworked tanks for 6v6, I feel like we wouldn’t have as many problems.
Unsalted’s take on rein was so horrid 😭 A lot of his takes were too, his hog bias is showing so much. He only cares about his one trick hero being good and nobody else is allowed to be good.
"Supports shouldn't be able to survive when I dive them, but I should be able to survive everything." Also the fact that hog was stupid OP for several seasons somehow doesn't get mentioned...
@@galev3955 And then he is also like *Why can rein charge in put shield up and correct his mistake?* Rein is not correcting his mistake, he is trying to survive his mistake. Because he physically has to go in to make something happen. Correcting the mistake would be recalling like tracer. But to have that happen he now relies on lifeweaver Meanwhile his hog can hook somebody from the safety of his team, delete the target, and the only mistake will be.. he misses or hooks in the wrong target. Shits on a very high risk and telegraphed oneshot but wants his easy safe oneshot back, what a trash opinion.
He was right about Hog though. He got a whole rework because of Suzu. But instead of removing immortality out of it, they are punishing him and his mains. (Since God forbid we nerf Weebo Waifu).
@@Ajoi14yeah I was sorta agreeing on that hog was op because of kiriko but then he started talking about how rein shouldn’t be able to one shot because he can cancel which was wild
@@drkatz1192 Yeah, there were a few times where he got a little too riled up. "If you think Hog counters Doom you're a fuckin idiot!" Lol, calm down my guy.
i want a weekly show with spilo and flats, doesnt have to be OW, they so different but watching their expressions when the other is talking they seem to really enjoy each other
I think Flats is probably closer to the truth than not when mentioning that some of these issues might actually stem from a change in design and balance philosophy around tanks by the devs similar to the old support playstyle. I think some dev clarification on what their design and balance philosophy surrounding tanks is would help.
Ow balance team have absoluteluly no idea what they are doing. They have 3 pholosophies. 1. Make every support a dps or heal insane amount (ussualy both), 2. Transform every dps into forgiving tankbusting monster, 3. Nerf tanks
@racmanov But dps arnt tank buster at all its litterly just bastion everybody els is worthless or hit all your shots and stilm do nothing becouse 1 support pressed 1 botton to negate all you did in seconds . What dps outside of bastion and torb can actuly kill a tank solo by them selfs if the enemy tank is not just compleatly running into you and misses everything 10x in a raw
@@xythiera7255 sym, sombra, satan, hanzo, torb, echo, damn soldier can farm you hard, junk... And if mercy or zen are in game everyonr is tankbuster. Dpses have a ton of busted options. It is just that supports are even better
Let me remind everyone here Flats is a paid shill and will never give an unbiased opinion of the game. He lied about PVE's cancellation and knowingly (along with other OWL content creators) strung his audience along.
@@reynauldwhistles2338I talking about they way of coaching and I am aware of awkward personality and how people are not into to it but he does teach you very efficient and practically. He also does not incentives toxicity in the game, he always says to not blames others and rage and motives the self improvement and learning with your mistakes.
What Rein is pinning in, cancelling the charge, and then getting away with it by just walking out with his shield up? Did the enemy team just let him leave?
At basically not a single rank because at low ranks everybody shoots the tank and at high ranks that is either a potential pick on his team or a guick tank delete
@@charchadonto Thats why he was just giving a really bad take on that for me. Anyone looking at a rein knows if he cancels pin then he has no mobility options to get away.
fr, the only time I charge in and cancel is when I wanna bait or I wanna charge past a shield to shatter, no rein is pinning into the middle of a team and surviving lol
I think the main issue with tank is that the rock paper scissors effect in OW 1 was mitigatable by having a second tank when you were getting countered. Where as now not only do you not have that second layer of mitigation on the counter but now if you not only get countered by a better tank but you also get counter swapped by the dps and the supports, and if your team is isnt actively countering the things that are trying to counter you then you auto loose.
Another reason why I believe counter swapping should be removed or punished harder. Might be a controversial opinion, but I think you should be locked to the character you chose at the beginning.
Character lock in a game made for swapping is wild, would love to see how far they will take it till they realise that nothing past 6v6 will fix counterwatch
Something I realized when Flats says they are talking how bad tank feels to play but when they talk about individual heroes they suggest a lot nerfs and they need to be careful of that. I don't think that makes them sound contradicting, I think that proves how reasonable tank players are in comparison to the other roles. Tank players are not asking for their heroes to get giga buffed and become broken like you often see in some other roles. Instead they'd like some nerfs across the board to over powered abilities so the game feels more fluid and fun. What we currently have now is a rock paper scissors of who's abilities counter the other better and it feels really bad. A support like Kiriko gets insane value from suzu and its such an easy low skill ability that gives free value. Don't giga Winston or Ball or Rein, just nerf suzu. That's the sentiment that tank players have across the board in comparison to other roles. Tanks players might be the smallest player base of OW but I think they are also the most reasonable.
This is the problem: You can't gigabuff tanks. If you do that, they'll just become DPS that are insanely hard to kill. What needs to happen is the game around them needs to be brought down to a reasonable level. Support power creep is the root of the issue, but if we nerf supports DPS will need a bit of a nerf too or everyone will just be exploding all the time with the insane damage output the game has right now. This is why Flats said he doesn't see a way out of OW2's current problems. This would require tuning the numbers on every single hero in the game, which isn't really feasible.
Because everything is too high, we need nerfs, not buffs. There is too much damage, too much cc, too much healing, too much movement, too much survivability.
@@esperfire3779 Supports have also been the role to have the most heroes added since the start of OW2 and the balance will likely shift back towards the other roles in the coming seasons. And even though the tanks on this podcast were complaining a lot about invulnerability and other utility, the tank role is also one of the main benefactors from said abilities, so by just nerfing/removing the invulnerabilities, cleanses, and CC's, there'd be tradeoffs for the tanks as well.
The unsalted rein takes were abysmal..rein and winston are both the two characters that make the game fun for id guess to say 3/4 of the community. Without these two being meta or in a good spot, the game usually suffers and we get stuck with a omega buffed tank that just isn't fun to vs or really play as. Rein feels really rewarding to make plays on knowing i took the space and held w like a chad(especially since right now you just blow up, im giving you the side eye bastion zenyatta) and winston feels good to know i called for the dive got there and hopefully started fragging out. He requires team work to make it happen and having a team really trust your calls and follow through on them feels fucking good man. Rein just feels awful right now because he blows up on every single engagement he attempts to make, discord orb is an absolute nightmare to play against (not just for rein but in general tank wise) and im really surprised it wasnt talked about more. Another thing that seems to be happening, is that with every new character that comes out, is another get out of jail free card that comes along with them. It started with suzu and has since developed with every new support character coming out and that also makes rein miserable to play. Even if you dont go for the big slam on a 5 man, you go for one person to get a pick in which landing it is already a skill in itself, you get the slam, and then its just taken away from you FOR FREE. Why do i have to work 50x as hard to actually play the game as rein than practically every other character with the amount of get out of jail or escapes? It's very frustrating and it seems the more these abilities that furthermore come out the less reins youll see because no one wants to deal with these characters having an ability on an 8 second cool down that counters my entire point of existence. Just my thoughts on it of course.
it used to be “just bait out suzu” (even then ppl didnt like it), but now theres so many bs abilities that u just have to ult and hope for the best …..
nah 6v6 was cancer to balance around like almost any time you release a tank you have to consider the tank duo balancing is hard because a tank might be strong when duod with another tank but be usseless with any other
USS: "Rein is op because you have to run a synergistic comp and people have to play around him" Also USS: " Hog needs his 1 shot and Ana nade is stupid and there's no counter play" Well Zen discord/ Mercy dmg boost helps his 1 shot potential. And Kiriko bails Hog out after anti-nade and sleep. Kitune + Whole Hog synergy is ballistic.
USS, and a lot of other Hog players, seem to have this mentality that they are the only "real people" playing the game. A big indicator of that is how he's absolutely enraged by the fact that he can't walk all over the supports to win the game, and they now have utility and damage options rather than just being good little healbots that fall over if you dive them like in OW1, meanwhile he hates logging in just to take space and get CC'd and chased around. Support and Tank have somewhat flip-flopped in playstyles from OW1 to OW2, but now that Salt has a taste of what it's like he doesn't just want to stop suffering, he wants Supports to suffer again.
@blackfang0815 hello! coming from a friendly place I think you got the wrong idea from what they were discussing about hog. they don't want to walk all over the supports. they just want the character to be playable. the removal of his one shot and no compensating change to his kit made him completely unviable. Widowmaker and Hanzo still have one shots and they are less committal than hogs one shot and can be done more frequently because they weren't on an 8 second cool down. supports didn't get safer like you suggest when hog got nerfed. jq can one shot most characters almost as well as hog could with her throwing knife, headshot shot, knife combo or her throwing knife, carnage, body shot but nobody complains about her and she is a lot more useful to her team in more ways than Hog was. the point I'm trying to make is that nerfing hog didn't take away one shots and fix the issue, it just killed a character and made the hero roster go from 38 characters to 37.
@@yesimchar That is sadly not true about USS. Right here 36:00 He clearly states that he believes that you should be able to w key into a support and slaughter them unless someone decides to save you. Which is wild, to say that you have to sit there and take it because you have no agency or ability to protect yourself.
@@yesimchar1 shots are a problem In general but, hog is a 700hp target with the easiest 1 shot in the game. Jq 1 shot isn’t reliable at all the knife has arc and projectile speed and if they have movement they can escape your knife axe combo anyway. Hog just throws the hook str8 at you and the massive hit box of it just grabs you.
How was it not mentioned that Yeatle ranked up that high on Kiriko when she first came out because in her release state heal botting was the ideal playstyle (i.e. how Fielder played), her heals were absolutely busted but that's not her best playstyle anymore
get a man who looks at you the way spilo looks at salt. Salt is about to unleash the rant of the century and Spilo is giggling like a little girl on christmas eve
This was really fun to watch, for the 'support debate' wouldn't it be interesting to have a tank player and a support player both talk it out as to how each of the roles feel and then debate on it? i just don't want the support debate or discussion at this point get reduced to "yea but then we don't have tools to do everything xd'' and rinse and repeat that for 3 hours.
Just to give context, I'm an OW1 and 2 support main. Personally, I think the problem is power creep in the support and DPS roles while Tanks have LOST their survivability/threat. I preferred the 6v6 format, but honestly 5v5 could work if tanks were given some survivability or lethality back because right now tanks just get DELETED.
I couldn't stand him after Flats brought up Support being vocal and Salt piggybacked on that by whining for the next three minutes like he had actual PTSD from playing Tank. I think bro needs to hop off Overwatch and into therapy.
@@blackfang0815its bc hes like a support main that complains everytime he has to use skill for his character but now that hog is weak his skills dont carry over
@kyami843 Good. Hog sucked and he was terrible for the game. Of course tanks shouldn't have massive self-heal AND a really easy to use 1-shot. Pre-nerf Hog was literally just better DPS on top of being a tank and not needing supports. I hope his rework is good, both for Hog players and for the health of the game.
Love how Salt's arguments basically boil down to "I should be able to have fun in this game and no one else." This man needs to learn some perspective and empathy. Also "what do you think about this hero?" Salt: I guess it can be fun for a while but gets boring fast.
Yeah, I disagreed with almost every single take. It was like I am playing an entirely different game than him. Was not a positive to the discussion and I skipped a lot of his comments later on.
As a support player, anyone who truly believes they are not the strongest role is huffing some sort of cope. they literally are the life blood of the entire team, and on top of that have crazy utility they bring.
And sometimes just unkillable if a team ain't coordinated or understand what to do casue as a birg in ranked any time I saw a hog injust b lined for him now about half of the time I got obliterated but the other half was just me walking them down and then doing whatever I wanted
It sure feels like it. Even at low ranks, aside from some of those egregiously bad pulls like pulling you off a cliff during your guaranteed teamkill nanoblade, it's hard to hate the guy pulling 12k healing in Quickplay that panic presses E every time you take a hard stun (Your team wasn't going to protect you anyway)
@@Sweet_Reverb”game manager” supports solve a problem that they are creating: more damage coming from the enemy team, because they are not contributing to the fight. That is why supports feel like DPS now, because you can actually remove some of the need to heal by actually doing something instead of watching your teammates do it for you. Weaver players are so smug about the healing numbers and pulls when half of them wouldn’t even have been necessary if you just played Illari.
I love the idea yeatle have for ball with CC immunity on adaptive shields. It's like the dva vs ana duel. Dva knows ana has sleep so she can try to dm it. Like there is some kind of outplay potential. It's just not. "I go in, I assume I'm gonna get triple CCd and die" like it is now. Or "I am gonna get CCd but atleast I have a billion health so I can tank that and roll away."
1:03 I think Spilo hit the nail on the head. Imo the solution is to make tank CC (more broadly, all debuffs) resistant. Just like with boops and sleep dart, tanks should have lessened effects from slows, hinders, discords, hacks, etc. All non-ult CC. The desired target of CC should be other squishies. Using CC on tanks should be very low value. From there, if a tank is too strong without the CC, you nerf the tank individually. If a tank is so strong it requires a hard counter, it’s too strong.
I think an easy fix for the 2 bubble conundrum is the recolor her secondary bubble whether it be on herself or her ally. If she has a bubble already on cool down and she uses a bubble the second bubble should be another color, so you can tell for at least that very moment she doesn't have another bubble. I think that would allow for some counterplay.
3 months late, but spilo was SPITTIN when he was talking about ball. i've been saying the same thing for a while. give ball tools to deal with cc, then nerf his health. that way, he isnt a on/off switch character.
For wrecking ball I think something that would help him immensely is make it so hack doesn't cancel his ball form. It would make it so hack needs to be more precise, like you hack him to disengage his grapple or cancel pile drive instead of just getting insane value from any mindless hacks.
As a support main, the seasons have started feeling more miserable to me. Not because they are weak, but because they are so OP that they don't feel like supports. Support is just better DPS now. As a support I enjoyed playing with and enabling the rest of the team. Now, letting a teammate die so that I can confirm kills (since I out damage nearly the entire roster) is more valuable to wining, but it feels like trash. I don't like playing an OP hero, it's not fun. And I feel bad when there is nothing I can do to let my tank actually play the game. I hate to say it, but I honestly preferred the support Dead by Daylight simulator in the first couple seasons of OW2 even though that sucked in a different way. Now I fear the enemy supports in my face more than the enemy tank. The balance has swung so far in the other direction that supports went from having trouble making any play to being the only ones that can which, is not why I play support. I liked in OW1 when tanks could make big plays and I could smile know that I enabled them to make that play. I want to play support, not stronger DPS.
Svb, just know that your videos make my day. The long form podcasts really help make it through my work day. I work in a machine shop 10+ hours a day, and your content has really grown on me. Love the episode.
I’m so happy to see Yeatle & Flats together. Two of my favorite, and most positive OW streamers out there. Also, Yeatle looks 45 years old with the stash, but I love it!
18:20 Istg flats reaction to salt saying that support are cry babies is fucking hilarious like he knew he was right but he knew the support mafia would find him
1:32:00 if he means like that the Shields give him CC immunity its a really really good idea. When ball dives really good he gets rewarded but when they break his only 200-300 shield bec he dived 2 and gets slept, thats still a way to counter it
Yeah I really like this take from yeatle... like honestly I'd wish I could hear this kinda a good take on roadhog but all I've heard has been trash takes... it's like unsalted knows why hog is bad rn but he doesn't seem to realise anyway to fix roadhog without breaking the character... imo I think yeatle's idea is really good, it could be even changed around a bit and given to hog as well with his vape being used as a fortify but before he vapes, he can get naded and prevented from using the vape
tbh i think slam should also be activated at any point, you have to commit 2 abilities and usually go around the enemy team to get a good engage so they dont just insta kill you or cc chain you. also no everyone should have to be to techs like wall jumping and shit on ball just to do it. theres also the fact that even if you do get a good fireball slam combo with ball… it’s usually not even that effective. it distracts the enemy for a little bit but for all the work you put it in, it barely does anything. this at least makes so ball can do some set up for his team and still have his hook up to continue the engage or disengage. i dont like it when heroes have so much for effort for you to be effective on them… and the value you get is next to nothing
What do y'all think about a charge/level system for Suzu? For example, tapping the button makes it do its healing effect, holding it a bit makes it do healing and cleanse, and holding it for the max duration gives the full current Suzu effect. Each level could maybe have different cooldowns/projecticle speeds maybe. Idk. Mostly just a random thought, am I cooking or am I smoking something?
YEATLE! Finally!! He is my favourite overwatch creator (right after you SvB 😉😉) and I’ve been wanting him on the podcast for the longest time! Just pulled into work, got hours of paperwork to do, can’t wait to listen to this while I work!! As always thank you for your hard work and all the great content ❤
Can’t believe I’m saying this but Samito probably has the best stance on the state of tanks and seems to be a good 5 months ahead of the rest of the community. I just don’t see how they fix tanks without either reworking the entire game or going back to 6v6
My take is very similar to what Flats said early on in the podcast, and that is that the Tank role has lost a lot of its lethality. Not because tanks aren’t dangerous, they are, but because supports are now more dangerous. They’re dps characters that can also heal a ton of damage. Most of their ults completely vibe-check the game and they have standard abilities that regularly allow them to play around ults. Is this a problem, honestly not really. The problem is that the rest of the roster, mainly tanks, don’t get that luxury. Dps players don’t have that luxury and tanks certainly don’t. The Tank role needs an update, a change to make them playmakers instead of finishers. I haven’t feared tanks for quite a while in OW2 and that needs to change. Whether that’s a new passive, boosted hp/damage numbers, some combination of the three, I don’t know. Support is a problem because they are the only role to receive the changes necessary to handle OW2. Time for the tanks and dps to get updated as well.
Unsalted: "Rein is bad because he can cancel his mistake for going in too deep" (meanwhile Roadhog's vape exists AND gives him ult charge for fixing his mistake).
The main issue with Sombra for example, is that in 6v6 there was an actual tradeoff to picking her. You could hack the offtank ball doing his thing, but you were sacrificing frontline pressure and raw damage output towards the 2nd tank. In 5v5 however, if you hack the ball you literally remove the entire enemy frontline presence with one ez ability on a low cooldown that has ZERO risk associated. And this goes for other heroes too, dps and support. If you rock-paper-scissor the enemy tank, their team collapses because tanks are fundamentally so important and also so useless due to there only being 1 of them. I'm not saying 5v5 is unbalancable, but 6v6 literally makes every single problem easier to fix - including the tank synergies that would arise.
thats more like ball bad tho. Sombra tracer was a thing wasnt because ball is meta Also idk why its a given that people should counter pick. Like the amount of people expected me to just switch to genji as a shooty mcshooter player is mindbogglin. Sure maybe if i swap to genji and act like a clown the enemy ana gonna fall over and die ( in game). Its the same shit when a dps swap to counter tank, its not fun ( at least more me) when im "forced" to go on sombra, bastion, reaper because a doomfist is on my ass 24/7 having fun on my corpse
@@MefoWho I think it's risky to conflate what works on average with what works for you, also just from a pure enjoyment standpoint, if you're good at shooty mcshooters it's probably cus that's what you enjoy/comes natural to you. And here I absolutely agree, there is no point in trying to force someone to swap if they are not comfortable with the swap -even if the swap itself objectively could hold more value in general, just not in your hands. Some swaps do gain unholy levels of impact purely by hard countering an enemy player (especially in lobbies where team play is less prevalent, which even means gm these days sadly). Here the outright ease of value vs low risk of picking sombra to vs enemy ball (in isolation) is out of proportions. Is what it is. Doesn't mean you should force yourself to do it if you play to enjoy each match, rather than play to rank up efficiently. There's a big difference between you actively deciding to counterpick, vs an ally demanding that you swap to counterpick. Two unrelated issues that just happen to align around the same context.
@@Real_MisterSir tbh ive always thought thats the case since how many time you heard people cursed out pharah because their team have no hitscan ? even tho shes not "meta". Even when you swap to sombra and hack ball, if you win then nobody knows, if you lose because youre clueless then everyone gonna shit on you even more ( thats my clueless sombra experience anyway). All im saying is counter picking is good, but im willing to hinder myself to play what i considered fun. But when theres no way to kill ball as whatever im playing thats not sombra ( ye its skill issue but aint i matched with similiar skill plebs?) it feels so shit to play. Switched to sombra, im not having fun, ball isnt having fun, so what do? IDK where am i going with this, probably just want a fake idea of a "fair" fight, even if its an illusion. Having a chance to "win" even when the odds are against me is maybe the reason people onetricking.
If we were to implement 6v6 on this environment and specially with the current support passive i assure you nothing would die. Tankbuster dps and oneshots from snipers were a necessary evil to resolve teamfights, otherwise you would be playing 2cp simulator where all teamfights become stale. Its time to put the 6v6 debate to an end.
@@josewolf9884 You're arguing balancing, not format. Two entirely different topics, although aligned around the same context. Every single aspect you bring up, is something that can easily be changed by simple tweaks. What 5v5 will never do, is give tanks freedom and ability to anchor the team. That is impossible to achieve through balance alone.
I love playing Doom and hes one of the few heroes i feel genuinely confident on. But hes so easy to shut down sometimes that i often dont even bother, which is sad
letting Salt cook with that rein part was wild. Especially considering that his whole thing was Rein being able to make up for a bad engage is bad, when Roadhog is literally unkillable if you dont swap to something to stop his heal.
I see why his name is salt. He wants to play tank like a dps. Be dps. He wants to call some of the most skillful heros skilless just bc they can counter him. Like... cmon now. He just wants tank to be op and be the only one who can do anything so he can feel powerful over everyone else.
Every time he opened his mouth only shit came out it lol. Even Flats interrupted him while he was talking about Kiriko tp bc he simple hate how the character can run away and Flats was like “so you want the player to not be capable to do anything?" and them he compared fucking Sombra to Kiriko lol
@andrecarvalho9144 all I heard from him the whole time was "how dare people be able to have the chance to survive and deal with me? I am the God of this match and this team I deserve every kill and all the praise" Like sometimes flats gets on my nerves for his somewhat narrow-minded views but omfg. Salt literally just sat there and showed why some people shouldn't have opinions on games. Calling Ana a skilless hero?????? She's one of the most skillful in the game. Kiri has long cooldowns, and his complaints abt mercy are dumb too. Like what... she should just be unable to protect herself in any way???? Glad I don't follow his content. This video was hard to get through because of him.
Yeah I'm not sure his obsession with one shots. If he was actually good at the game he'd just play widow but he can't aim so he has to throw a giant hook.
@@AtlantisBrooke Flats interrupted him when he was talking about Kiriko teleport, Flats almost said “so you want the player to not do anything against?".
bullshit. Support is the most broken role in the game and by far the easiest to get value out of. Why does the role that requires the least amount of skill get the most value?
Depends really, If your not dying with your team you either stagger or a dirty moira/kiri running away. a good team should go all or nothing against the other team
But that's literally what tank is right now. I say 4v4 but instead just remove tank. 2 dps 2 support, cus then it just turns into 4 dps where some have healing abilities.
@@prestigiouschili7911 yeah i didn’t understand that. dude said “i’m not an idiot. i’m very logical” and then proceeded to say the most illogical things 😭
The thing I hate about being a tank main in O2 is that you experience A LOT of stress and toxicity. Not only from enemy teams in chat but from your OWN team. It takes alot of the fun out of a video game when everyone blames you when the team loses. At the end of the day, it's a game! There's always a winner and a loser. People need to accept that.
![The Great Tank Debate [2024] feat. Flats, Danteh, Bogur & Freedo](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ckPGk9pd6n4/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Great Tank Debate [2024] feat. Flats, Danteh, Bogur & Freedo](/img/tr.png)
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This episode was recorded on 7/09/25! 🎉
bring back 6v6
I actually think limited swaps should be tested
As a gold-stuck tank-main, Yeatle's thoughts are *precisely* echoing my own; it's a shame that "streamers" get dismissed by online community noise, because it's rare that non-streamers can speak eloquently on their own experiences like this.
1. Single tank lost all of the nuance of combining offtank utility, damage is still power-crept to melt tanks, and specific abilities are designed to be anti-tank/anti-healer so playing front-line is excessively high pressure.
2. Damage being power-crept to melt shields (OW1's legacy of bad shield design) and kill tanks means non-tanks die too fast > Non-tanks dying too fast means supports get more healing output and tools to save non-tanks from being killed > playing tank becomes un-fun due to the demand of playing under that constant pressure to mitigate that damage output.
3. Healer tools being isolated to each Support hero independently means balance is always around these "impactful" abilities -- anti-heal (Queen/Nade), cleanse (suzu), kill-blocking (lamp/suzu), and now yoink (Lifeweaver pull) means playing tank is just a job of soaking damage and waiting for the enemy team to screw-up and let your team kill. No more "initiator" role, no more "disruption" role (except *maybe* for Doomfist masters), and the utility of the offtank was shifted to Supports to some degree... Tank role is just a sack of health, shields are still just health buffers, and the game revolves around supports.............
4. Tools that are "all or nothing" like anti-heal or suzu or lamp. Moira isn't getting mentioned, though her aoe healing is amazing, because her healing can be countered through damage pressure and she isn't flipping outcomes purely on a single ability use... Anti-heal needs to be changed to *absorb* healing to a capped amount and Suzu needs to not immune targets and instead just cleanse with a slight heal... Mercy's damage boost vs Zen's is another example - you cannot counter Mercy's beam (without killing her) because she applies the boost to an ally and allows that DPS to pick off targets that aren't even aware of her boost being in effect - Discord orb, to the contrary, announces you're the target and allows you to hide from snipers or get to your tank's shield.
5. Lastly, non-tanks die too fast which puts pressure on supports to save them which means Blizzard inevitably buffs their toolkit to save non-tanks from instant death. 200hp is the problem since tanks have 500+ health. I'm not saying everyone needs 500 health - but seeing how Bastion has 300 with armor and numerous other DPS have been given baseline health buffs, it's obvious that damage can never be properly balanced when one set of targets soak 1000+ damage and other targets only soak ~200. Giving everyone baseline 300 (just above the 240 damage breakpoint for sniper headshots with boost iirc) and then using that new metric to balance healing output (goal of reducing healing spam) and thus indirectly nerfing a lot of these tools... Tanks are still tougher, but Reinhardt's firestrike balance flipping for 10 damage (90>100) is an obvious clue that non-tank health is too low to allow Blizzard to properly balance the game for 5v5.
Addendum: Shields being giant health buffers is an outdated mechanic; I'd really like to see the entire design reworked to absorb in a "staged" manner, allowing more visual feedback to the integrity of a tank's shield while reducing how much damage is needed to break it -- but increasing regen so "dancing" a shield to block intermittent burst damage is the new role of shield blocking... Rein walking forward with a giant wall is no longer the meta, Bastion/Symm are too strong at tank busting because they were designed with shield-breaking as giant health pools - I want to see this fundamentally change to be closer to how Sigma has to juggle his shield in/out with other cooldowns or become more like Orisa's cooldown cycling brawling.
Next episode we need a preemptive rule against saying "fundamentally" and then only talking about specific examples
Putting flats and a hog main in the same call was a bold move
especially when said hog player hates rein😭😭😭
I wish salt actually had good points and debate skills though. That was rough to listen to for me lol
@@ElmoRitterhe had good points he just doesnt express them in a helpful way
@@ElmoRitterfor real i had to force myself thru his parts ☠️
@@clinical2692I haven't heard the whole thing yet but I heard his kiriko one and was like huh? So far I'm wondering what good takes did he have?
"you don't feel happy you won a game, you feel relieved you won the game" is such a real statement on how it feels to play OW2 these days.
So why play the game man. It makes sense that these streamers do because they gotta eat but for just a guy like you and me ? We should be enjoying our win, not being happy it's over
@@5080yenthis is why I quit a month ago
@@greatwhitnorth I'm happy that you got away from something that I'd go as far to say that you probably didn't like.
@@5080yensome of us have been around since beta/S1 and want to see the game succeed and throughout this following and investment of time and energy, don’t want to just “stop playing” because you feel relieved from a W instead of happy for a W. What the real killer is is, Blizzard as a company and where they are going with the game which is obviously the wrong way and it’s been going the wrong way more than the right way and we are really crossing our fingers that they can realize what’s going on, and listen to the community.
Just the state of competitive online games in general.
Yeatle looks like hes been gaslit for months, about the state of tanking and now that people are sane around him, hes achieved bliss.
Bro looks like Hes about to cry 😭
I mean so many people defend overwatch like they get pad for it for no reason
He looks like Freddie Mercury faked his death to become a ball main
@@AngrySecs 💀💀💀💀💀
@@AngrySecshe looks more like Dr Disrespect Lmao
Flats´s facial expressions reacting to salt´s rhein takes were fucking hilarious
Ya, salt was struggling but I do agree that his pin should not be cancelable.
Respect for flats for not just flaming him on the spot for being a hog main 😂😂
@@TorqueKMAbut then pin would go back to being useless
@@TorqueKMAwhy should other heroes get to keep ranged one shots, but the one that requires you to commit in melee range isnt okay? Make it make sense
@@CoinGoblin97wait, he’s a hog main? And he hasn’t quit the game after his nerf?
57:24 "You get blamed; you get focused; you get fucked. Ok, I guess we gave you a quick queue time." That's the Tank experience OW2.
Sad thing is Tank always had the quickest queue times.
@@highheart4300yeah, because no one is playing it
Tanks get blamed the least . Have you ever played dps the worst unneeded role in the game you are bascly hold to the standart dont get any help from anybody and kill 5 peopl every teamfight against supports that do everything better then you and tanks that basicly cant realy ever die
@@xythiera7255 Tell me you don't actually play tank without telling me. Any time I pop off or do kind of average on dps, I get hyped up and endorsed, any time I pop off on tank or do average, I get told to swap, blamed, yelled at, abused and called racist remarks. Let me guess, you play one game of quick play every week?
So? Any Role…if you have a bad team? 🤨
Tanks went from being Raid Bosses to becoming dungeon mobs lmao
underrated comment
naw we the tutorial enemies rn
Salt with the Reinhart take has got to be the most wild thing I've ever heard
Not to be mean, but it's a very braindead take it's baffling
I understand his take tho. He's consistent. He likes the FPS aspect of OW, not the RPG team builder aspect. He wants to load, play hog, shoot shit and kill. Playing Rein and gathering
everyone like an RTS and right clicking the enemy like a Zerg isn't necessarily fun for everyone. I kinda agree with his take, it's fun for a little while, but it gets old.
Taking angles, flanking, finding value NOT on the main lane. Those aspects can be fun even on tank. He's an FPS player who enjoys the FPS aspects of OW, even if all the other RPG/Moba stuff exists.
Honestly, I think Salt's take is hypocritical and crap.
He complains about Rein's one-shot that's easy to punish while advocating for Hog's unpunishable one-shot to come back? Seriously? Also, he complains that a team-oriented oriented character in a TEAM GAME is bad? Really? Finally, he gets mad that Hog was nigh on deleted from the game while saying Rein shouldn't exist? What if the same was said of his beloved Hog, arguably one of the characters who is the most unhealthy for the state of the game.
I'm a support main with no dog in this fight but I get heated when I hearva take this hypocritical and utter nonsense.
@@GriFFonRec4 The moment he decided to throw insults to anyone who liked rush comps he loss the argument. He said people who like rush are bad at the game. What comps are allowed to exist to him? Can't rush, can't poke, and can't dive. My guy basically wants to play CoD literally. He couldn't even point out why he hated Rein aside from just describing Rein. It gets even dumber when you go with the idea of its fun at first but gets old. Well so does every single thing just about. Thats not an argument either. He is free to just dislike Rein but don't bother explaining it when you can only pull weak reasons out your ass.
32:59 I'm leaning more towards the fact that salt's takes are soo dumb and hypocritical regarding the most different heroes... so he thinks sombra not being able to hack when getting shot is the same as kiriko not being able to tp while taking damage?? Oye sombra can translocate away when taking damage. It's the point that you run away when you being pressured...
Spilo is the GOAT please have him on more often i think he has a lot of good takes in general about the game
I trust Spilo implicitly
The cutie gamer boy strikes again
he is a 6ft demon and an ow degenerate, what more could you ask for
He’s good but he doesn’t really play the game. He’s a masters player
he used to be an owl coach, he knows the game far better than almost every single gm player@@rileyp3707
Change the daily challenge from “Thank a support player” to “Thank your tank” lol
Have been doing that since season 4, i always felt that tank was the most unfun role to play as.
"Talk down your tank from the ledge" 🗿
Keep having spilo I think he gives a lot more nuanced and less biased answers
Flats take are fair.
@@morocuda2090Flats is a paid shill who will say anything Reddit and Tik Tok posts for a quick buck. The only reason he and Spilo sound remotely similar ( love Spilo btw) is becuase of that very truth.
Flats and other "former OWL" creators knew about PVE being canceled when the developers did and lied about its release up until the reveal to make more income before the fallout.
@@vopcracker3193 proof?
@kyami843 no. Im not.
@@morocuda2090I've seen that guy's name before, he does this everywhere and it's kinda sad. Pay him no attention.
Salt proves that you can become incredibly good at overwatch while also being a complete tomato can
True
aspen
I have no clue what that means
@@Gnolls...an idiot
@KnylonAdmin In boxing a tomato can is someone who is an inferior fighter. So he might be calling him an inferior OW player. I'm not sure, though
Your name might have salt in it but that Reinhardt take was fully unseasoned holy shit lmao
like who is complaining about his pin? How tf do you get pinned after plat rank? If you make pin committal Rein is automatically F tier
@@FlightX101 Nevermind half the time the hitbox doesn't work correctly and you boop them when it's a clear pin xD
He was RAWWW NOT JUST UNSEASONED 🗣💥‼️
@@footur3179Fucking facts, I don’t get why he was bashing Rein as if he’s Top Tier when he’s not😂
@@FlightX101the only complaints I really hear about pin is just its janky hitbox, from both the Rein and the victim. Sometimes what looks like a clear pin just causes the enemy to bounce off like a trampoline and sometimes the enemy is suctioned in from several feet away.
It's honestly funny how Orisa was reworked to be more aggressive in OW 2, but her most optimal playstyle is STILL to just sit there like a wall.
I liked old orisa more than the new orisa.. like how did they mess up that bad lol
I mean I thought she was fun at first just cause it was a new rework, but then I realized it's super basic and even more boring
Gotta love yeatle, clearly thinks 6v6 is better but he knows it ain't coming back so he doesn't even mention it. All he says is "without two tanks it's harder..."
I'm with flats, fuck it, 4v4. OW3 here we come.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u fuck healers. 3v3, everyone has the supports passive. (?
Nah, we need OW4, 3v3. Just one per role.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u Nah bro they just need to rework all tanks into supports and delete the role
Ow 6 solo Br
I love how salt either brings a good take I've never thought about or the most unhinged brain dead shit I've ever heard there is no in between xD great podcast! love it
I think all his takes are valid. He's a Hog main who is getting his hero reworked because of weebo waifu's ability being broken. You can't ask hammonds to like Sombra, Ana, Cass, or Brig. Similarly, you can't ask Hogs to like Reins.
@@Ajoi14I haven’t seen the whole vid yet but, You can’t base balance of the game around your favorite character. Nerf Suzu so hog won’t be broken? He was throwing his hook across the map and one shotting you for looking at him.He was broken anyway. I play genji and hate mei I don’t think she should be nerfed b/c a bad matchup though.
@@Ajoi14Kiriko does need a nerf though she’s the embodiment of support power creep she can do everything
@Cummster Hog was not broken he you played his counters. Orisa, Ana, and even Reaper (a good Reaper) could completely shut down hog. You'll probably argue that you shouldn't have to play his counters just to be able to contest against him, but then I'll argue that that's a 5v5 format problem, not a hog problem. Blizzard was the one that turned this game into counterwatch, not Roadhog. Blizzard apparently wants u to rely on counters to get anywhere in this game so Hog shouldn't have to be punished for something that wasn't his doing.
can we just admire how neutral svb is... what a great host man
On last few he really was not. I am still supporting on patrion tough but he made me question
you cant really blame him. No one can defend tank this season@@racmanov
@@joeyu498 i didnt watch this one yet. But he was complitely on with gaslighting the comunity as spoiled brats last few episodes. He didnt even played devils advocate as he ussualy do. He was absolitely sucking blizzard. Hard
I disagree. how can he be a good host if hes not playing the devils advocate? you have to be as neutral as possible as the host and to an extent id say he did a good job, its impossible for a human to not have an opinion so him saying his feelings as a way to allow the debate to continue is perfectly justified @@racmanov
he did better this time thats for sure.
Rein is op and doom is the best tank in the game? Bro respectfully, USS is smoking some strong shit
Doom is very good tho if u know how to play him. Especially if u compare him to ball... both are hard to play yes, thats why u dont see them, but doom is both easier and better than ball rn atleast
@@hambster9759that’s a potential bias tho, just cuz you see one or two dudes *ahem*ZBRA*ahem*QUAKD*ahem* do really well, doesn’t mean that tank is universally good.
Like a strong sojourn will still roll a lobby even tho sojourn isn’t as strong as she used to be, or a strong Zen can tap heads still. They aren’t super top tiers, except maybe for Zen, but with all of them the players skill makes the hero look good.
@@hambster9759I do agree with you tho that Doom > Ball, cuz doom uniquely has better escape tools than ball does. Like ball needs to have super strong map knowledge to use the geometry to move, whereas doom can just press ult and he’s gone in most situations if he sets up correctly.
@@hambster9759 dont worry im aware of that im a doom otp but doom is NOT better than every other tank (ie: orisa,zar last season) as much as i love playing doom calling him the best tank in the game is a stretch.
he is sniffing salt, but not on all the takes
Based on what I'm hearing, Suzu needs to be changed immediately. It's the one complaint across the board from everyone in this entire debate. Every tank wants to do something, they get suzu protection. You make a play as tank and suzu saves the person. Anything you want to do as tank gets stopped immediately by suzu. The thing I've seen the most is just remove the invuln and it's fine.
mah remove clensing
It's called suzu wait then kill..You should be pressuring kiriko so she can waste her cooldowns..So you won't have to deal with those scenarios..Problem is it's hard to do that if orisa is there..I still go after them..I still apply pressure the more they focus me they are not doing there job..Now my team is making plays..Example moira..Widowmaker running the room I got pressure her..Support hard carrying I go kill them..I don't just sit back and cry that suzu is stopping me from doing things..I make the player waste there cooldowns..
@@tryingtochangemyways5074 The big issue with the takes they had for Suzu were that, especially with Salt, they seemed to forget that there are... more players in the game? Suzu does not exist to counter you, it exists to help buffer one bad situation. If you're the only one being countered, and Suzu is always around to counter your play, you're not making plays enough and your team is doing literally nothing to apply pressure with you. One if the big examples was them saying Kiriko can TP in, Suzu, and fix all the problems. Have they even played Kiriko? The golden rule is that you never waste both cooldowns, especially to TP in and save a teammate, because you're just signing your own death warrant.
the amount of times I've shattered 4 or 3 people and they get suzued, or even shatter 5 but Suzu is thrown right before they fall and they immediately get back up... these are trying times
@@godzillaenthusiast9687I honestly believe that shatter shouldn't be cleansable. It's ult, for Christ sake, and it's not even that good, considering other ults, on character that doesn't have that good of a damage output on his own.
Countering ult with something that has 14 seconds cooldown is just mean.
I love spilo & flats on here. They def have the best takes and are also much better at explaining why. Spilo specifically is just so damn well spoken and articulate
What I didn't like about Flats is that when asked for solutions, he just says "there's nothing to do". I don't know if he is one of those content creators who are constantly criticizing the devs, but I hope he is not, because that would be very hypocrite.
I say this because, as some may not know, the way you do constructive criticism is to give ways of improving the thing you are saying it's wrong
@@LuigixD I watch a good bit of his content and a typically don’t see him criticize the devs much.
@@LuigixD sometimes there is no solution because the base of the problem is faulty. As in, there is not anything else that can be done, then redo it,
@@LuigixD Flats is just a high level player and streamer, not a game designer. He can point out what feels bad and what his insights are and not know a perfect solution to fix those issues. He could have worded it better, but instead of wasting time proposing a flawed change, he just leaves it to other people to find the right changes
@@charchadonto That's why I specify people who say "why don't the devs just fix this" without giving an actual solution. If Flats isn't one of those, then I have no problem with him
Spilo had the best takes it’s crazy how he views all these issues
plus i respect him so much for admitting when he hasn’t put much thought into something and notes his biases before his opinion
And he's handsome, especially by overwatch standards
He is an OWL coach he knows the game better than everyone else there.
as a tank player in shambles this episode was THERAPEUTIC. im going to be sleeping good for at least a week listenning to this every night. for a long time i felt voiceless and this cast REPRESENTED WELL!!
Jesus Christ dude, stop playing for a bit. Might help you, no offense
@@zero13z34its probably hyperbolic, dude 💀
@@jjinmahn3374
That was the most hyperbolic hyperbole I've ever seen then 💀
Here are the 2 biggest problems with support:
1. 1 less tank in 5v5 means that support healing is distributed over a smaller healthpool = much too high healing per player
2. Immortalities have gotten stronger and are stackable (e.g. Kiriko cleanse + Lifeweaver Pull).
Baptiste lamp used to be the only immortality and :
a) It left the player under lamp at low HP
b) It did not bring the player to a better position
c) It did not remove status effects
d) It was on a very large cooldown
These downsides have been ignored with recent immortalities
These 2 problems combined together cause most frustrations with supports atm
I didn't think about the first point even though it's so obvious which is why I appreciate you mentioning it. What I have to add is that the same goes for damage. This is why tanks are getting killed in like 1 second and if they do survive they're full hp in another 2 seconds. It's why tanks aren't really allowed to make mistakes. My point is that nerfing healing wouldn't be enough just like nerfing damage wouldn't be enough. Both have to go down. Sure they could buff hp but I think on a long term perspective it'd be horrible to balance
I disagree with the first point. No healing is going to out heal burst damage. Ass the seasons progress, all of these hero’s are seeing higher damage numbers and outputs. Supports have all this utility to make up for the lack of off tank. I find it funny that tank players complain about kiri cleanse, but when the sombra is always hacking them or the Ana throws her entire kit into them, they praise and love Suzu and everything that it can do.
@@TheRealKush420 Buffing supports has become a necessary evil because of the removal of an off tank. This is one of many examples of how Overwatch was not fundamentally made to be 5v5. For Overwatch to work in 5v5, many characters (and maps) would have had to have been redesigned from the ground up which the dev team will NEVER do. I could go on for ages on all the problems that 5v5 causes that people don't necessarily notice but just to as examples:
1. Maps like Havannah or Dorado have difficult to access high-ground. This wasn't a problem in Overwatch 1 because attackers could contest highground with a mobile off-tank. In Overwatch 2, you are fighting an uphill battle if you don't have a mobile tank on these maps. Notice how recent maps do not have any kind of inaccessible high-ground, as they are made in mind that there is only 1 tank.
2. One-shots are a bigger problem than ever before because a tank cannot be in two places at once. It is very difficult for a tank to contest a Widowmaker while also protecting the team. This was not an issue with 6v6 and is another oversight of 5v5
3. Lack of off tank to peel for supports has made it so supports must become much more survivable in order to protect themselves. This leads to frustrating game design as it necessitates strong immortalities, burst healing, and movement abilities
There are so many more points I could mention but I don't want to make this comment too long. Point is, the issue you're describing is a necessary evil that just makes the game play worse for everyone solely because of 5v5.
5v5 can work, but the devs would have to rework fundamentals of the game, including reworking numerous old heroes and maps basically from the ground up. Since the devs would never do this because it would require too much time and ressources for too little return on investment, the only other solution is too bring back the off-tank, and hence bringing back 6v6, which is equally unlikely to happen. These problems are likely here to stay for the forseeable future.
@@Larg_Man I completely agree… I feel like 6v6 was better and more enjoyable for players. If the devs would have just reworked tanks for 6v6, I feel like we wouldn’t have as many problems.
Honestly, absolute factuals you be speaking there.
Hog player talking about having to pick around rein is craaaazy, hog pretty much needs kiri to pretend to do anything
Wild takes ngl
Yeah I disagreed a lot with his takes but his takes on Rein were wild.
@@Ninjaboy362i agree with his take of ana being a no skill hero
Bro like its not that hard to beat a rein as a hog you just bro so much trash kids getting me mad
Unsalted’s take on rein was so horrid 😭
A lot of his takes were too, his hog bias is showing so much. He only cares about his one trick hero being good and nobody else is allowed to be good.
"Supports shouldn't be able to survive when I dive them, but I should be able to survive everything." Also the fact that hog was stupid OP for several seasons somehow doesn't get mentioned...
@@galev3955 And then he is also like *Why can rein charge in put shield up and correct his mistake?*
Rein is not correcting his mistake, he is trying to survive his mistake. Because he physically has to go in to make something happen. Correcting the mistake would be recalling like tracer.
But to have that happen he now relies on lifeweaver
Meanwhile his hog can hook somebody from the safety of his team, delete the target, and the only mistake will be.. he misses or hooks in the wrong target.
Shits on a very high risk and telegraphed oneshot but wants his easy safe oneshot back, what a trash opinion.
He was right about Hog though. He got a whole rework because of Suzu. But instead of removing immortality out of it, they are punishing him and his mains. (Since God forbid we nerf Weebo Waifu).
@@Ajoi14yeah I was sorta agreeing on that hog was op because of kiriko but then he started talking about how rein shouldn’t be able to one shot because he can cancel which was wild
And thats based
Unsalted Salt has some absolutely wild takes. I don't often think I have a better opinion than top players but this man has got some wild stuff.
I honestly think he shouldn’t be invited on again. He was very uneducated, poorly spoken, and outright disrespectful/vulgar.
@@drkatz1192half the time he said playing x tank or going x is brain dead gameplay
@@mitch4065 To be fair most characters have brain dead gameplay
Give the guy a break, his main got actually deleted from the character select screen
@@drkatz1192 Yeah, there were a few times where he got a little too riled up. "If you think Hog counters Doom you're a fuckin idiot!" Lol, calm down my guy.
i want a weekly show with spilo and flats, doesnt have to be OW, they so different but watching their expressions when the other is talking they seem to really enjoy each other
i second this
I think Flats is probably closer to the truth than not when mentioning that some of these issues might actually stem from a change in design and balance philosophy around tanks by the devs similar to the old support playstyle. I think some dev clarification on what their design and balance philosophy surrounding tanks is would help.
Ow balance team have absoluteluly no idea what they are doing. They have 3 pholosophies. 1. Make every support a dps or heal insane amount (ussualy both), 2. Transform every dps into forgiving tankbusting monster, 3. Nerf tanks
@racmanov But dps arnt tank buster at all its litterly just bastion everybody els is worthless or hit all your shots and stilm do nothing becouse 1 support pressed 1 botton to negate all you did in seconds . What dps outside of bastion and torb can actuly kill a tank solo by them selfs if the enemy tank is not just compleatly running into you and misses everything 10x in a raw
@@xythiera7255 sym, sombra, satan, hanzo, torb, echo, damn soldier can farm you hard, junk... And if mercy or zen are in game everyonr is tankbuster. Dpses have a ton of busted options. It is just that supports are even better
Let me remind everyone here Flats is a paid shill and will never give an unbiased opinion of the game. He lied about PVE's cancellation and knowingly (along with other OWL content creators) strung his audience along.
@@racmanov ahh yes, Satan, my favorite Overwatch 2 character 💀
Not gunna lie rushing in and attacking like brain dead piranhas is probably the funniest way to play overwatch
I'll rather have a fun meta than a "balanced meta". You know the thing is bad when pro players play cheese characters over high skill ceiling heroes
This is hilarious lmao
Right? That sounds like so much more fun than having to stand back and be afraid because of how much will kill you instantly if you go in.
never heard of spilo until this episode but DAMN were his takes good. He seriously knows this game
He's a very good coach just like awkward you should check them out
@@Drezito_27just like awkward? Are you talking about their personalities or how good they are at their job?
Spilo wasn’t an overwatch league coach for nothing
Imo he’s the most knowledgeable ow player on earth
@@reynauldwhistles2338I talking about they way of coaching and I am aware of awkward personality and how people are not into to it but he does teach you very efficient and practically. He also does not incentives toxicity in the game, he always says to not blames others and rage and motives the self improvement and learning with your mistakes.
What Rein is pinning in, cancelling the charge, and then getting away with it by just walking out with his shield up? Did the enemy team just let him leave?
At basically not a single rank because at low ranks everybody shoots the tank and at high ranks that is either a potential pick on his team or a guick tank delete
@@charchadonto Thats why he was just giving a really bad take on that for me. Anyone looking at a rein knows if he cancels pin then he has no mobility options to get away.
fr, the only time I charge in and cancel is when I wanna bait or I wanna charge past a shield to shatter, no rein is pinning into the middle of a team and surviving lol
I think the main issue with tank is that the rock paper scissors effect in OW 1 was mitigatable by having a second tank when you were getting countered. Where as now not only do you not have that second layer of mitigation on the counter but now if you not only get countered by a better tank but you also get counter swapped by the dps and the supports, and if your team is isnt actively countering the things that are trying to counter you then you auto loose.
Another reason why I believe counter swapping should be removed or punished harder. Might be a controversial opinion, but I think you should be locked to the character you chose at the beginning.
@@cagxplays9602Moba style? I think a hero draft or pick and ban would have been better
@@Warrior_Meta literally anything, counter swapping is way too prevalent and should not be a major mechanic.
@@cagxplays9602 true lol
Character lock in a game made for swapping is wild, would love to see how far they will take it till they realise that nothing past 6v6 will fix counterwatch
Something I realized when Flats says they are talking how bad tank feels to play but when they talk about individual heroes they suggest a lot nerfs and they need to be careful of that. I don't think that makes them sound contradicting, I think that proves how reasonable tank players are in comparison to the other roles. Tank players are not asking for their heroes to get giga buffed and become broken like you often see in some other roles. Instead they'd like some nerfs across the board to over powered abilities so the game feels more fluid and fun. What we currently have now is a rock paper scissors of who's abilities counter the other better and it feels really bad. A support like Kiriko gets insane value from suzu and its such an easy low skill ability that gives free value. Don't giga Winston or Ball or Rein, just nerf suzu. That's the sentiment that tank players have across the board in comparison to other roles. Tanks players might be the smallest player base of OW but I think they are also the most reasonable.
This is the problem: You can't gigabuff tanks. If you do that, they'll just become DPS that are insanely hard to kill. What needs to happen is the game around them needs to be brought down to a reasonable level. Support power creep is the root of the issue, but if we nerf supports DPS will need a bit of a nerf too or everyone will just be exploding all the time with the insane damage output the game has right now.
This is why Flats said he doesn't see a way out of OW2's current problems. This would require tuning the numbers on every single hero in the game, which isn't really feasible.
@@esperfire3779but supports now ARE the DPS heroes too. They deal kinda same damage, but they got a ton of utility and healing. Thats not broken?
Because everything is too high, we need nerfs, not buffs. There is too much damage, too much cc, too much healing, too much movement, too much survivability.
@@Melix0ff Most of the games I play, supports have more damage, more elims and less deaths than the dps.
@@esperfire3779 Supports have also been the role to have the most heroes added since the start of OW2 and the balance will likely shift back towards the other roles in the coming seasons. And even though the tanks on this podcast were complaining a lot about invulnerability and other utility, the tank role is also one of the main benefactors from said abilities, so by just nerfing/removing the invulnerabilities, cleanses, and CC's, there'd be tradeoffs for the tanks as well.
watching this while playing support because I don't wanna play tank anymore
Based
If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em..
Imagine beeing a dps player right now with everybody do your job better and everything you do gets out healed or no damage at all
watching this because i dont want to play dps anymore because support is better dps haha
So kind of you guys to have UnsaltedSalt on so he could, for the first time in his life, have a chance to feel like he knows what he's talking about 😊
🤭
Salts anxiety was flaring up while flats cooked him up
The unsalted rein takes were abysmal..rein and winston are both the two characters that make the game fun for id guess to say 3/4 of the community. Without these two being meta or in a good spot, the game usually suffers and we get stuck with a omega buffed tank that just isn't fun to vs or really play as. Rein feels really rewarding to make plays on knowing i took the space and held w like a chad(especially since right now you just blow up, im giving you the side eye bastion zenyatta) and winston feels good to know i called for the dive got there and hopefully started fragging out. He requires team work to make it happen and having a team really trust your calls and follow through on them feels fucking good man. Rein just feels awful right now because he blows up on every single engagement he attempts to make, discord orb is an absolute nightmare to play against (not just for rein but in general tank wise) and im really surprised it wasnt talked about more. Another thing that seems to be happening, is that with every new character that comes out, is another get out of jail free card that comes along with them. It started with suzu and has since developed with every new support character coming out and that also makes rein miserable to play. Even if you dont go for the big slam on a 5 man, you go for one person to get a pick in which landing it is already a skill in itself, you get the slam, and then its just taken away from you FOR FREE. Why do i have to work 50x as hard to actually play the game as rein than practically every other character with the amount of get out of jail or escapes? It's very frustrating and it seems the more these abilities that furthermore come out the less reins youll see because no one wants to deal with these characters having an ability on an 8 second cool down that counters my entire point of existence. Just my thoughts on it of course.
it used to be “just bait out suzu” (even then ppl didnt like it), but now theres so many bs abilities that u just have to ult and hope for the best …..
@AbbyAZKwhich is why he should keep his mouth shut tbh. He can't talk without channeling his inner hog.
100% agree with your take.
Watching these guys slowly go down the path of realizing how much more difficult it is to balance 5v5 it's so funny lol
Copium. Spilo is the only sensible one here, and you weren't any better. Anyway didn't you quit?
@@Kanggaxxstill plays tho
5v5 is way better samito. Cry and seethe because you rode the ow dick
nah 6v6 was cancer to balance around
like almost any time you release a tank you have to consider the tank duo
balancing is hard because a tank might be strong when duod with another tank but be usseless with any other
Amen.
USS: "Rein is op because you have to run a synergistic comp and people have to play around him"
Also USS: " Hog needs his 1 shot and Ana nade is stupid and there's no counter play"
Well Zen discord/ Mercy dmg boost helps his 1 shot potential. And Kiriko bails Hog out after anti-nade and sleep. Kitune + Whole Hog synergy is ballistic.
USS, and a lot of other Hog players, seem to have this mentality that they are the only "real people" playing the game. A big indicator of that is how he's absolutely enraged by the fact that he can't walk all over the supports to win the game, and they now have utility and damage options rather than just being good little healbots that fall over if you dive them like in OW1, meanwhile he hates logging in just to take space and get CC'd and chased around.
Support and Tank have somewhat flip-flopped in playstyles from OW1 to OW2, but now that Salt has a taste of what it's like he doesn't just want to stop suffering, he wants Supports to suffer again.
Discord also severely weakens Roadhog and Kiriko clenase works on ONE of Ana's abilities if she doesn't vomit them all over the tank.
@blackfang0815 hello! coming from a friendly place I think you got the wrong idea from what they were discussing about hog. they don't want to walk all over the supports. they just want the character to be playable. the removal of his one shot and no compensating change to his kit made him completely unviable. Widowmaker and Hanzo still have one shots and they are less committal than hogs one shot and can be done more frequently because they weren't on an 8 second cool down. supports didn't get safer like you suggest when hog got nerfed. jq can one shot most characters almost as well as hog could with her throwing knife, headshot shot, knife combo or her throwing knife, carnage, body shot but nobody complains about her and she is a lot more useful to her team in more ways than Hog was. the point I'm trying to make is that nerfing hog didn't take away one shots and fix the issue, it just killed a character and made the hero roster go from 38 characters to 37.
@@yesimchar That is sadly not true about USS. Right here 36:00 He clearly states that he believes that you should be able to w key into a support and slaughter them unless someone decides to save you. Which is wild, to say that you have to sit there and take it because you have no agency or ability to protect yourself.
@@yesimchar1 shots are a problem In general but, hog is a 700hp target with the easiest 1 shot in the game. Jq 1 shot isn’t reliable at all the knife has arc and projectile speed and if they have movement they can escape your knife axe combo anyway. Hog just throws the hook str8 at you and the massive hit box of it just grabs you.
How was it not mentioned that Yeatle ranked up that high on Kiriko when she first came out because in her release state heal botting was the ideal playstyle (i.e. how Fielder played), her heals were absolutely busted but that's not her best playstyle anymore
Nah didn't you listen to Flats? Healing numbers are powercrept!!! We've had no healing nerfs at all. /s
@@Kanggaxxher healing did in fact get nerfed since then as well as her ult. Which is why the healbot play style isn’t nearly as viable anymore.
Yeah it was literally whoever gets rush first wins the fight
@@lilgrozzy197 I know dude I agreed are you ok
@@Kanggaxx I guess I’m not because I keep reading you comment and don’t see how you agreed.
Great lineup minus unsalted salt. Boy needs to relax. Thanks for reigning him in. When he flew off the handle it was hard to watch.
I was laughing when he said rein’s charge/charge cancel is too good
I love unsalted. Don't agree with everything he says, but he makes me laugh. I'd want to see him on the support podcast that's coming next
he is so funny "who the fuck logs on to make space?"
🤓
I wouldn't go that far, his takes were bad but the guy is funny. having him in here made the episode more interesting
Lol, USS as the bitter, aggrieved hog enthusiast just makes me laugh.
Yeatle stache is so fire...
Banger guest lineup, enjoyed listening to it.
get a man who looks at you the way spilo looks at salt. Salt is about to unleash the rant of the century and Spilo is giggling like a little girl on christmas eve
This was really fun to watch, for the 'support debate' wouldn't it be interesting to have a tank player and a support player both talk it out as to how each of the roles feel and then debate on it?
i just don't want the support debate or discussion at this point get reduced to "yea but then we don't have tools to do everything xd'' and rinse and repeat that for 3 hours.
Put Unsalted Salt in the call so he can call out Ana mains on their shit XD
Please never have him on again. A hog main complaining about other characters being unskilled is so braindead.@@Harevald
Even better bring in the mercy mains hoshi especially
The tanks get an ep, the support get an ep, and then you put them in a face off
Just to give context, I'm an OW1 and 2 support main. Personally, I think the problem is power creep in the support and DPS roles while Tanks have LOST their survivability/threat.
I preferred the 6v6 format, but honestly 5v5 could work if tanks were given some survivability or lethality back because right now tanks just get DELETED.
I am sorry but any time Unsalted salt talks it becomes harder not to roll my eyes
💯
I couldn't stand him after Flats brought up Support being vocal and Salt piggybacked on that by whining for the next three minutes like he had actual PTSD from playing Tank. I think bro needs to hop off Overwatch and into therapy.
@@blackfang0815its bc hes like a support main that complains everytime he has to use skill for his character
but now that hog is weak his skills dont carry over
@kyami843Let me play a sad song on the worlds smallest violin
@kyami843 Good. Hog sucked and he was terrible for the game. Of course tanks shouldn't have massive self-heal AND a really easy to use 1-shot. Pre-nerf Hog was literally just better DPS on top of being a tank and not needing supports. I hope his rework is good, both for Hog players and for the health of the game.
Love how Salt's arguments basically boil down to "I should be able to have fun in this game and no one else." This man needs to learn some perspective and empathy.
Also "what do you think about this hero?"
Salt: I guess it can be fun for a while but gets boring fast.
He's a Hog player who complains about the one-shot being taken away. What do you expect?
Yeah, I disagreed with almost every single take. It was like I am playing an entirely different game than him. Was not a positive to the discussion and I skipped a lot of his comments later on.
@@blackfang0815to be fair his one shot being removed is bullshit if hanzo and widow get to keep theirs
The fact that you care this much is embarrassing lmao
He really does come off like a bit of beligerant idiot that can't articulate himself and when he does it's complete one-sided bullshit.
Its like, with only one tank to counter, it's easy to counter it, imagine having two tanks, where your enemy team has to try and counter both.
Imagine if you didn't have to counter tanks
well they still got countered, and that makes metas even more instilled
That’s why I play open
go play cod
@@lilwintery6434
every pvp game has meta@@tesla6938
As a support player, anyone who truly believes they are not the strongest role is huffing some sort of cope. they literally are the life blood of the entire team, and on top of that have crazy utility they bring.
And sometimes just unkillable if a team ain't coordinated or understand what to do casue as a birg in ranked any time I saw a hog injust b lined for him now about half of the time I got obliterated but the other half was just me walking them down and then doing whatever I wanted
Love these because I never finish them in one sitting so it’s always nice having something of quality to binge throughout the week
Man, literally every take salt makes has me going “says the HOG player?!”
found the support player.
i don’t think he said a SINGLE wrong take so far. supp is the easiest most broken role it’s actually insane
@@Cororo96I’m a tank main lol
@@nagato.overwatchrein gets out of jail free too easy for instance (coming from a hog main of all people)
@@assimilater-quicktips I mean atleast Rein doesnt instanly die if they have an Ana
Yeatle out here looking like some 1950s father with a family of four.
lol
Finally Spilo back again
only listened 18 minutes but this is golden (and true thank god people finally says it), go tank boys
unsalted's take on lifeweaver being sent by christ was actually so fucking funny
It sure feels like it.
Even at low ranks, aside from some of those egregiously bad pulls like pulling you off a cliff during your guaranteed teamkill nanoblade, it's hard to hate the guy pulling 12k healing in Quickplay that panic presses E every time you take a hard stun (Your team wasn't going to protect you anyway)
@@Sweet_Reverb”game manager” supports solve a problem that they are creating: more damage coming from the enemy team, because they are not contributing to the fight. That is why supports feel like DPS now, because you can actually remove some of the need to heal by actually doing something instead of watching your teammates do it for you. Weaver players are so smug about the healing numbers and pulls when half of them wouldn’t even have been necessary if you just played Illari.
Salt tilted Flats so hard
😂
Fr
I love the idea yeatle have for ball with CC immunity on adaptive shields. It's like the dva vs ana duel. Dva knows ana has sleep so she can try to dm it. Like there is some kind of outplay potential. It's just not. "I go in, I assume I'm gonna get triple CCd and die" like it is now. Or "I am gonna get CCd but atleast I have a billion health so I can tank that and roll away."
Imagine a blue shield around ball when he uses adaptive shields and the duration is dependent on how many players are around ball
1:03 I think Spilo hit the nail on the head. Imo the solution is to make tank CC (more broadly, all debuffs) resistant. Just like with boops and sleep dart, tanks should have lessened effects from slows, hinders, discords, hacks, etc. All non-ult CC. The desired target of CC should be other squishies. Using CC on tanks should be very low value.
From there, if a tank is too strong without the CC, you nerf the tank individually. If a tank is so strong it requires a hard counter, it’s too strong.
It's going down my people
This was a much more civilized discussion lol
I think an easy fix for the 2 bubble conundrum is the recolor her secondary bubble whether it be on herself or her ally. If she has a bubble already on cool down and she uses a bubble the second bubble should be another color, so you can tell for at least that very moment she doesn't have another bubble. I think that would allow for some counterplay.
"what am I supposed to do" is the tank mantra
3 months late, but spilo was SPITTIN when he was talking about ball. i've been saying the same thing for a while. give ball tools to deal with cc, then nerf his health. that way, he isnt a on/off switch character.
For wrecking ball I think something that would help him immensely is make it so hack doesn't cancel his ball form.
It would make it so hack needs to be more precise, like you hack him to disengage his grapple or cancel pile drive instead of just getting insane value from any mindless hacks.
As a support main, the seasons have started feeling more miserable to me. Not because they are weak, but because they are so OP that they don't feel like supports. Support is just better DPS now. As a support I enjoyed playing with and enabling the rest of the team. Now, letting a teammate die so that I can confirm kills (since I out damage nearly the entire roster) is more valuable to wining, but it feels like trash.
I don't like playing an OP hero, it's not fun. And I feel bad when there is nothing I can do to let my tank actually play the game. I hate to say it, but I honestly preferred the support Dead by Daylight simulator in the first couple seasons of OW2 even though that sucked in a different way. Now I fear the enemy supports in my face more than the enemy tank. The balance has swung so far in the other direction that supports went from having trouble making any play to being the only ones that can which, is not why I play support. I liked in OW1 when tanks could make big plays and I could smile know that I enabled them to make that play. I want to play support, not stronger DPS.
Is Salt going to heel turn on every tank other than Hog?
Svb, just know that your videos make my day. The long form podcasts really help make it through my work day. I work in a machine shop 10+ hours a day, and your content has really grown on me. Love the episode.
Unsalt: "Zarya is the tank DPS players take when they have to go tank" (says the Hog player....)
Flats had a similar take but he isnt a hog main
I’m so happy to see Yeatle & Flats together. Two of my favorite, and most positive OW streamers out there.
Also, Yeatle looks 45 years old with the stash, but I love it!
18:20 Istg flats reaction to salt saying that support are cry babies is fucking hilarious like he knew he was right but he knew the support mafia would find him
Salt made zero sense about Reinhardt, and Rein meta is the best meta for me and I'm not even a tank player
Spilo is the goat great to see him on the podcast
Yo svb is an S tier host. Good job mate love the energy
Great to see you back, SVB! Love how the community comes together for these.
unsalted salts takes were the definition of "you can be good at a game without knowing what youre talking about"
1:32:00 if he means like that the Shields give him CC immunity its a really really good idea. When ball dives really good he gets rewarded but when they break his only 200-300 shield bec he dived 2 and gets slept, thats still a way to counter it
Yeah I really like this take from yeatle... like honestly I'd wish I could hear this kinda a good take on roadhog but all I've heard has been trash takes... it's like unsalted knows why hog is bad rn but he doesn't seem to realise anyway to fix roadhog without breaking the character... imo I think yeatle's idea is really good, it could be even changed around a bit and given to hog as well with his vape being used as a fortify but before he vapes, he can get naded and prevented from using the vape
tbh i think slam should also be activated at any point, you have to commit 2 abilities and usually go around the enemy team to get a good engage so they dont just insta kill you or cc chain you. also no everyone should have to be to techs like wall jumping and shit on ball just to do it.
theres also the fact that even if you do get a good fireball slam combo with ball… it’s usually not even that effective. it distracts the enemy for a little bit but for all the work you put it in, it barely does anything. this at least makes so ball can do some set up for his team and still have his hook up to continue the engage or disengage. i dont like it when heroes have so much for effort for you to be effective on them… and the value you get is next to nothing
What do y'all think about a charge/level system for Suzu? For example, tapping the button makes it do its healing effect, holding it a bit makes it do healing and cleanse, and holding it for the max duration gives the full current Suzu effect. Each level could maybe have different cooldowns/projecticle speeds maybe. Idk. Mostly just a random thought, am I cooking or am I smoking something?
pass here whatever you're smoking bro
It should just lose the invulnerability altogether.
"The hero's fantasy", then a hecking metalic demolition ball gets bodyblocked by a tracer
YEATLE! Finally!! He is my favourite overwatch creator (right after you SvB 😉😉) and I’ve been wanting him on the podcast for the longest time!
Just pulled into work, got hours of paperwork to do, can’t wait to listen to this while I work!! As always thank you for your hard work and all the great content ❤
“Who the fxck wants to log on and make space” 😂😂😂😂😂😂
It is crazy we say let a roadhog player talk about skill is like give a gun to a monkey...
We don't do that anymore since astana zoo massacre in 1999
2:27:51 Funny story, Commanding Shout DOES have a shorter duration on allies than it does on Junker Queen.
Can’t believe I’m saying this but Samito probably has the best stance on the state of tanks and seems to be a good 5 months ahead of the rest of the community. I just don’t see how they fix tanks without either reworking the entire game or going back to 6v6
GET SPILO ON MORE! DUDE IS ACTUALLY GOOD AT EXPLAINING AND LET'S OTHERS SPEAK AND ITERATES ON THEIR THOUGHTS INSTEAD OF GOING TANGENTAL!
I’m so happy to see spillo here greatest coach in the history of overwatch videos are truly educational
i love watching everyone reaction to salt's rein take they are all like "dude are you just trying to be controversial for no reason?"
The support part about them playing themselves is very true lol
Nah, I consistently place higher on tank then support.
@@bobdole3996so... maybe you're just a tank player at heart ❤️
Salt's takes sound like a master player malding that they cant get into GM
??
My take is very similar to what Flats said early on in the podcast, and that is that the Tank role has lost a lot of its lethality. Not because tanks aren’t dangerous, they are, but because supports are now more dangerous. They’re dps characters that can also heal a ton of damage. Most of their ults completely vibe-check the game and they have standard abilities that regularly allow them to play around ults. Is this a problem, honestly not really. The problem is that the rest of the roster, mainly tanks, don’t get that luxury. Dps players don’t have that luxury and tanks certainly don’t. The Tank role needs an update, a change to make them playmakers instead of finishers. I haven’t feared tanks for quite a while in OW2 and that needs to change. Whether that’s a new passive, boosted hp/damage numbers, some combination of the three, I don’t know. Support is a problem because they are the only role to receive the changes necessary to handle OW2. Time for the tanks and dps to get updated as well.
Unsalted: "Rein is bad because he can cancel his mistake for going in too deep" (meanwhile Roadhog's vape exists AND gives him ult charge for fixing his mistake).
The main issue with Sombra for example, is that in 6v6 there was an actual tradeoff to picking her. You could hack the offtank ball doing his thing, but you were sacrificing frontline pressure and raw damage output towards the 2nd tank. In 5v5 however, if you hack the ball you literally remove the entire enemy frontline presence with one ez ability on a low cooldown that has ZERO risk associated. And this goes for other heroes too, dps and support. If you rock-paper-scissor the enemy tank, their team collapses because tanks are fundamentally so important and also so useless due to there only being 1 of them.
I'm not saying 5v5 is unbalancable, but 6v6 literally makes every single problem easier to fix - including the tank synergies that would arise.
thats more like ball bad tho. Sombra tracer was a thing wasnt because ball is meta
Also idk why its a given that people should counter pick. Like the amount of people expected me to just switch to genji as a shooty mcshooter player is mindbogglin. Sure maybe if i swap to genji and act like a clown the enemy ana gonna fall over and die ( in game). Its the same shit when a dps swap to counter tank, its not fun ( at least more me) when im "forced" to go on sombra, bastion, reaper because a doomfist is on my ass 24/7 having fun on my corpse
@@MefoWho I think it's risky to conflate what works on average with what works for you, also just from a pure enjoyment standpoint, if you're good at shooty mcshooters it's probably cus that's what you enjoy/comes natural to you. And here I absolutely agree, there is no point in trying to force someone to swap if they are not comfortable with the swap -even if the swap itself objectively could hold more value in general, just not in your hands.
Some swaps do gain unholy levels of impact purely by hard countering an enemy player (especially in lobbies where team play is less prevalent, which even means gm these days sadly). Here the outright ease of value vs low risk of picking sombra to vs enemy ball (in isolation) is out of proportions. Is what it is. Doesn't mean you should force yourself to do it if you play to enjoy each match, rather than play to rank up efficiently.
There's a big difference between you actively deciding to counterpick, vs an ally demanding that you swap to counterpick. Two unrelated issues that just happen to align around the same context.
@@Real_MisterSir tbh ive always thought thats the case since how many time you heard people cursed out pharah because their team have no hitscan ? even tho shes not "meta". Even when you swap to sombra and hack ball, if you win then nobody knows, if you lose because youre clueless then everyone gonna shit on you even more ( thats my clueless sombra experience anyway). All im saying is counter picking is good, but im willing to hinder myself to play what i considered fun. But when theres no way to kill ball as whatever im playing thats not sombra ( ye its skill issue but aint i matched with similiar skill plebs?) it feels so shit to play. Switched to sombra, im not having fun, ball isnt having fun, so what do?
IDK where am i going with this, probably just want a fake idea of a "fair" fight, even if its an illusion. Having a chance to "win" even when the odds are against me is maybe the reason people onetricking.
If we were to implement 6v6 on this environment and specially with the current support passive i assure you nothing would die. Tankbuster dps and oneshots from snipers were a necessary evil to resolve teamfights, otherwise you would be playing 2cp simulator where all teamfights become stale.
Its time to put the 6v6 debate to an end.
@@josewolf9884 You're arguing balancing, not format. Two entirely different topics, although aligned around the same context. Every single aspect you bring up, is something that can easily be changed by simple tweaks. What 5v5 will never do, is give tanks freedom and ability to anchor the team. That is impossible to achieve through balance alone.
I love playing Doom and hes one of the few heroes i feel genuinely confident on. But hes so easy to shut down sometimes that i often dont even bother, which is sad
Weeee sleep 😴 and blow up
Last time doom was good was an awful meta so L
@tiga8600 also a wee hack 😂
Salts take on rein is crazy
letting Salt cook with that rein part was wild. Especially considering that his whole thing was Rein being able to make up for a bad engage is bad, when Roadhog is literally unkillable if you dont swap to something to stop his heal.
I see why his name is salt. He wants to play tank like a dps. Be dps. He wants to call some of the most skillful heros skilless just bc they can counter him. Like... cmon now.
He just wants tank to be op and be the only one who can do anything so he can feel powerful over everyone else.
Every time he opened his mouth only shit came out it lol. Even Flats interrupted him while he was talking about Kiriko tp bc he simple hate how the character can run away and Flats was like “so you want the player to not be capable to do anything?" and them he compared fucking Sombra to Kiriko lol
@andrecarvalho9144 all I heard from him the whole time was "how dare people be able to have the chance to survive and deal with me? I am the God of this match and this team I deserve every kill and all the praise"
Like sometimes flats gets on my nerves for his somewhat narrow-minded views but omfg. Salt literally just sat there and showed why some people shouldn't have opinions on games. Calling Ana a skilless hero?????? She's one of the most skillful in the game. Kiri has long cooldowns, and his complaints abt mercy are dumb too. Like what... she should just be unable to protect herself in any way???? Glad I don't follow his content. This video was hard to get through because of him.
Yeah I'm not sure his obsession with one shots. If he was actually good at the game he'd just play widow but he can't aim so he has to throw a giant hook.
@@AtlantisBrooke Flats interrupted him when he was talking about Kiriko teleport, Flats almost said “so you want the player to not do anything against?".
@@jm0112 it's even funnier bc he said Ana takes no skill but plays Hog the character that heals basically his entire hp and could one shot people lol.
It's nice that there's so much quality OW content so I don't actually need to play it😂
SPILO IS THERE LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Yea i am really excited to have him here
I’m so used to him screaming at himself. It’s very cool for them to bring him on!
spi(L)o unironically
Cant believe none of these guys used the opportunity to say Genji needs a nerf
@AbbyAZK its a joke, and I see Genji all the time.
@AbbyAZKfound the genji main
One support means one focus which means he/she ain't surviving any battle
bullshit. Support is the most broken role in the game and by far the easiest to get value out of. Why does the role that requires the least amount of skill get the most value?
Depends really, If your not dying with your team you either stagger or a dirty moira/kiri running away. a good team should go all or nothing against the other team
Also typing he/she is so much harder than just typing they lol
Dude. Obviously they would adjust them like they did for 1 tank. Think a little
But that's literally what tank is right now. I say 4v4 but instead just remove tank. 2 dps 2 support, cus then it just turns into 4 dps where some have healing abilities.
that rein take from salt was uh……. certainly interesting
For real! I thought he was mistaking him for a different tank. To him cancelling pin is a problem, but all the dive tanks are okay?
@@prestigiouschili7911 yeah i didn’t understand that. dude said “i’m not an idiot. i’m very logical” and then proceeded to say the most illogical things 😭
The thing I hate about being a tank main in O2 is that you experience A LOT of stress and toxicity. Not only from enemy teams in chat but from your OWN team. It takes alot of the fun out of a video game when everyone blames you when the team loses. At the end of the day, it's a game! There's always a winner and a loser. People need to accept that.