Dylan Talks Tone Ep #13 Magnets! Alnico 3 vs Alnico 5 Vs Ceramic #33
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
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Very well explained! Two points: I've read (on various forums, etc.) that A3 is actually the weakest mag, followed by 2,4,5, etc. Also, a lot of pickup makers (including the Big Two, Duncan and DMZ) have been producing A4 humbuckers, so there is a demand for that sound, which is reputedly very even and transparent, making it suitable for warm guitars.
Thank you for this simple explanation. The only thing I would add is that although stronger magnets are capable of a more powerful signal (i.e., more amplitude), their stronger magnet field is also more capable of interfering with string vibration. A common symptom of this is "Strat-itis", where having the pickups too close to the thicker strings will cause wolf tones. Pickup strength (combined with coil characteristics) will also affect the relative amplitude of various frequencies, which is why some pickups sound comparatively balanced, while others sound trebly or muddy. That's why pickup height is so important to good tone: you want as strong a signal as possible without putting a drag on string vibration or causing the frequency response to become unbalanced.
Ok so I now understand how the magnets affect the electrical response, how does that translate into tone? Is it brightness, harshness, clarity? Can you talk about what happens when someone contacts you for a custom pickup and they describe to you what tone they are looking for in a pickup? So let’s say, I call you and say, I want a set of strat pickups that have a lot of chime and sparkle, but I don’t want them to sound too thin. I want a beefy bridge pickup that can handle medium gain for blues. How do you formulate that in terms of which magnets, how many windings, etc. ? Thanks!
Yea, I remember that experiment as a Cub scout, I plugged it into the wall socket. That didn't go well.
I bet the other cubs got their First Aid badges that day..
@@ApolloVIIIYouAreGoForTLI More like defibrillator and EMS badges... Not recommended
I knocked out the power at a four story Chicago J.C. Pennies department store in 1969 at 8 years old the same way.. Jammed both ends of a fat wire in the two holes of the plug socket on the wall.. Big ass spark and threw me back like three feet..
My Mom asked me if I was alright (small burn on my hand) and What I did.
I got "Oh thank God" then she proceeded to whip my ass!!
Been playing with Electronics ever since..
I've watched a few of your vids so far, and just want to say thanks for putting all of this into language I can understand. I'm new to some of this, and you make it very simple to wrap my head around. Thanks.
You are right, stronger mags, higher output. But there is far more to all this. The iron content within the coil for a start. Ceramic magnets are usually used with steel pole pieces. It's not the ceramic magnet as such, but the steel within the coil that is raising the inductance of the pickup. (And if otherwise the same, lowering its resonance.) Alnico has around half the iron content of steel, and was used in the 50's because there was little choice.... OTOH, I really appreciate how hard it is to make YT content that attempts to communicate technical stuff.
good overview but you need to talk about the relationship of the magnet strength versus sonic characteristics. Amplitude is not the only thing.
For a given coil size, higher magnetic field strength results in higher output. That may affect tone because of the action of the magnetic field on the string. For a given magnetic strength, increasing the number of turns in the coil will also result in a higher output. That will lessen the high frequency response of the pickup because of the higher resistance and increased capacitance in the coil.
Formvar vs. poly coated wire? It's the thickness of the coating, not the coating material. A thicker coating means more space between the the actual wire wrappings and therefore a larger coil than one of the same resistance using wire with a thinner coating. That again affects frequency response.
If you want to know how distance from the strings affects your tone, just sit down, take a screwdriver, adjust your pickup as close to the strings as possible, listen to the sound, time the sustain etc. Then adjust to about 3/8" from the strings and listen to hoe the tone changes, length of sustain etc.
I have a push-pull phase switch on my neck single coil. I noticed that using the pickup by itself, switching out of phase makes it sound brighter. Something to do with the coil capacitance vs. the direction of the signal current. So there's another factor influencing tone.
To sum up, tonality depends on magnet strength, shape & width of the magnetic field, the characteristics of the coil and the distance from the strings. It doesn't matter what the magnet's made of, there's no such thing as alnico magnetism being different from ceramic magnetism.
Totally missed that alnico magnets act as an inductive core and independently of magnet field strength the different compositions of alnico have a slightly different permeability thus different effect on the public's inductance, and it is this one property that has a dominant effect on the frequency response. Magnetic field strength doesn't change the frequency response, but the overall output level.
For comparison, attach a lump of steel to a pickup and listen to it get louder and darker.
We love your videos and it feels like we are having a one on one convo with you about all this useful knowledge. Keep up the amazing work Dylan!
hi, thanks for this but its'a bit short.I've experienced differences in tone following differences of magnetic fields shape, even generated by the same alnico type. Basically when magnetic field is very straight and thin above the pole piece, it's sharp and clear, full of dynamics. then when the MF is wider, o if it's creating kind of magnetic "bridges" across all pole pieces or pickups , then the sound is totally diferent, more flat and thin, with less dynamics and body, kind of intermediate position.
One cool example, just turn one HB pickup on a les paul type guitar; if the other HB pickup is close and with a powerful magnetic field, a south will face a north, leading to a very wider magnetic field and you will hear clearly the difference, (like Peter Green's LP)
I guess it's different for single coils as north and south are up and down the pole pieces, but there is kind of shaping of a magnetic field that's better than another.
Everyone seems to know how to perfectly reproduce a pickup and they show you as well, but nothing on how pîckups are magnetized. See Seymour Duncan factory tour, not a word on it despite they say it's done further in the process.
Could you say a word on this? or confirm?
Thanks, I appreciate your channel and I'd like to have one video on magnetic field, sure you can make it!!
How does the string material affect the amount of excitation produced? wire wound, solid, Nickel vs steel etc. LOL this never ends.....
Easiest to understand explanation I've yet heard about this subject.. thanks for the knowledge and 👍👍
I have a 335 with their last t type alnico 5 (gibson t top reissue). It's cool overdriven but I play mostly mellow jazz and blues. I think alnico 5 in a 335 is a funny choice, I'm thinking of putting in an alnico 2 to warm it up; thoughts? thanks
Thanks for the informative videos you produce. Here are a couple of answers that are not covered in this video about magnets in pickups. Number one the magnet has a direct relationship to the strings in the guitar. The pull of the magnet on the strings can change the characteristics of the strings to some degree changing the overall sound. Remember metals (guitar strings) can themselves become magnetized to a small degree. Number 2 the flux density around the pickup coils is different. As the guitar string moves in this magnetic field it reacts a little differently since there is a little difference in the magnetic field. Therefore the sound produced is a little different. Remember the guitar string is moving up and down as well as sideways.
Soo many negative comments. This man is trying to break things down for the average person. I think he did a good job myself. Only thing I really see that needs a bit of elaboration is alnico rods are indeed laid out that way in order of strength, however alnico bars are a bit different.
Excellent explanation! Thank you!
THANKS, DYLAN!
Thanks for helping me understand the difference between alnicio and ceramic !!!
How do alnico magnet pole pieces compare with soft steel pole pieces with neodymium disk magnets attached?
Great explanation of magnets but still not sure how they affect tone. Also, how does string distance affect tone? Is it better to increase string distance from stronger magnets to reduce the punch and increase clarity? Or does it just depend on the individual tone some one is looking for? Thxs
I never really thought much about the relation between the coil and the magnet together, this is really interesting. So if my brain is thinking correctly, if I were to wind a humbucker with less winds similar to a vintage paf, but use a stronger magnet like a ceramic or alnico 8, would you be able to get the clarity of a vintage pickup while also having louder, more modern output?
This was very informative! Thank you.
This explains only the strength of singal, does not explain type of tone every magnet has.
Arkadiusz Gil
yes
a waste of time being bored for nothing
you could explain this in 3 minutes tops if you aren't a moron
Yeah magnets don't have "tone" you fucking idiots. "Tone" is frequency and current. Which he explains.
@@ApolloVIIIYouAreGoForTLI The title is misleading,he doesn't explain the tonal differences when all else is equal.IE magnet swapping with a single pickup.Some people don't have the full technical knowledge to know that magnets alone do not determine tone but that loosely they do affect tone (when all else is equal).Angry much?
For the tone, there are plenty of other comparison videos. If you have pickups you like, the best way is to try by yourself and swap different magnets. That's what I've done! Experiment by yourself to get the tone you want.
That could be a whole other video. Generally: A3=bright, with soft bass; A2=mid-range-y with spongy bass and smooth highs; A4=flat eq, with tight bass, chimey, truncated highs, and mids with no noticeable spike that get "browner" with hotter winds; A5=scooped, with big bass and bright highs; C8=tight bass, with aggressive mids and compressed highs. Wind plays a big part in this, so these tendencies can vary.
What's the difference in the effect of lowering pickup height, vs using a lower powered magnet? Either way, there is less magnetic pull on the strings. Thanks, Richard
Well explained.
I thought the magnet factors into the resistance #. Is that just determined by wind and wire grade?
So Dylan let me see if I get this right... If I used a C8 magnet, on an over wrapped P90 I would have a super punchy pup, but depending on what pot and cap it went through, would determine what the actual tone would be. But that pup itself, would have a tremendous amount of force when the string was struck?
Higher output doesnt always mean better i like lower output so the notes on every string are more balanced i like medium wound a5s for humbuckers medium wound A3s are quite good for single coils
How sustaniac works? please make video of it
awesome knowledge to have thanks Dylan
Would like to know how the different magnet strengths effect the tone of the pickup. thanks
Misinformation the type number doesn't necessarily refer to strength but is merely an identifier a2 is in fact weaker than a3. Also you can have a vintage quite not so magnetised at weaker than a3.
AlNiCo - Aluminium Nickel Cobalt
Magnets are measured in Gauss and that is where Gaussian algorythms come from including Gaussian Blur. So the idea that a string is outside the magnetic field is not right, its merely affecting less of it the further away it is.
Coil resistance has no real effect on the sound, its inductance that matters ergo magnetic flux matters. Checking the resistance is good for checking continuity but don't do it with microphone transformers as you can magnetise the core material and impede the quality permanently.
Guitar pickups are essentially one half of a transformer, so I suppose you could think of the permanent magnet's magnetic field rippling with string vibration as a Class-A circuit!
Coil resistance has a very profound effect on a guitar's sound. That's one main reason why certain different pickup designs with differing resistances sound unique from each other, even though they may have a similar overall output. Higher resistance (Thinner wire, more winds etc.) will yield more mid-range and less top end and less transparency, and vice-versa for lower resistance.
How does the strength of the magnet impact the frequency response of a pickup? If it does at all. Why is it that so many wide frequency response pick ups or pickups marketed as having "clarity" and "wide frequency response" feature weaker pickups (TV Jones Ray Butts pickup or the Lollar Gold Foil for example). What do rare earth pickups bring to the equation? Anything or is it just hype?
Your analogy of current in a wire by a standing field is wrong,the wire has to cut through the magnetic flux perpendicularly to create a current flow,flemmings left and right hand rules.
Interesting! Very well explained.
Hi Dylan. Often in very cheap guitars we find ceramic pickups, if these have a very high output, why are they considered of low quality? on what do these pickups lose value? perhaps on the quality of the output? thank you
have a old 70s Tiesco strat that i bought as a young teen 72 to 74 it has ceramic pups ,I recently replaced the slide switches that had issues ,did total seup and it sounds amazing better than most if not all of my 20 guitars ,is it the ceramic pups that is doing this? they are wide i guess double single coil pups much like a p90 just wanted some input on this they measure maybe 7k ohms i think
That was very well explained, thank you!
Question...what magnets would you choose for a fat tone?
So thats mean that some pickups are more sensitive to distance from strings than other because of the magnets? Come could be farther and some could be even more closer?
Clean Explanation. Thanks
HI. Is that true that the gauge and the winding of the copper wire used to build pickups affects the sound a lot?
Hey Dylan, question for you. I have a p90 that has a DC reading in the 14k range. It has ceramic magnets. I was thinking to play around with different magnets, a2/3/5 probably. And different combinations of them. Is it going to work out ok putting lower powered magnets in such a high dc resistance pickup?
Where does magic and mojo play in?
What about neodymium (rare earth) magnets?
very informative/interesting, subscribed!
What are typical output voltages and currents for various magnet types?
This is a GREAT video.
Great explanation!
A3 is weaker than A2 when used as a bar magnet, oddly enough, but it is stronger when used as a rod
I do not see any native americans anymore glad to see some tribes survived the trail of tears you are very skilled in your pick up craft great job
In an effort of public service, I recommend that you do some research on native Americans, their history, and their impact on modern life. It may save you from future embarrassment. Thank you for the compliment on the pickup stuff.
@@DylanTalksTone The mayflower folks should be thanking native Americans for showing them how to survive. You very sensitive about this i will leave it alone dylan
@@DylanTalksTone th-cam.com/video/1kwrEYIQ9-w/w-d-xo.html
Oh… I’m not offended… just know that the hole you are digging for yourself is getting mighty deep.
I was given a bunch of magnets for humbuckers,but there is no marking,so how do you verify what they are A2-A7, or ceramic. ..?
When a pickup is described as having Alnico 3, Alnico 5, Ceramic, or whatever type of magnets, is it the poles/screws (visible from the outside) or is it the magnet bar at the bottom that is made of the material?
bar
Thanks so much for this.
That was great
What would be the result if I used alnico bar magnet to a single coil pickup for strat,and the polepieces is just a steel?does it gets a good sound ?
So can one mix Alnico magnets in a single coil? Like A3 on the wound strings and A5 for the plane strings or vice versa?
What would happen?
Fender makes pickups with an A3/5 mix like that
What would be the best way to designe the noisless pickup? Like 3pl pickup would make it less hum that humbucker what is 2pl ?
Have anyone done such experiment. Would be cool to see such experiment ;)
lets go 4pl mabe . ;)
Thank you.
Do you know anything about fender Rhodes pickups/circuitry? I can't get my hands on the specs, but I wanna know what makes the Rhodes sound like it does
AlNiCo 2/4 is where it's at for teles
Does the SIZE of the magnet have an influence? Do you get more gauss in a bigger magnet? Or say the same in a smaller ceramic magnet as a large alnico?
long story short "yes". Bigger magnet = bigger magnetic flux... that said the surface area matters as well. Think of it like this-> if you have a 1cm x 1cm x 5cm long magnet, and you place it on iron -> yes it sticks. NOW lets say you DOUBLE the length, so its 1cm x 1cm x 10cm - > is your holding power twice as strong? No; the surface area didnt change, and due to logarthmic scaling of flux density, the force isnt double; maybe 25% more "strength". Now if you double the surface area, but maintain volume -> 1cm x 2cm x 2.5cm -> you effectively doubled the surface area of the magnet, so you get more force being applied per unit measurment. So at the end , the 1x1x10cm magnet has more gaussian strength, it does not give you a stronger grip than a 1x2x2.5 magnet. So all together, the 1x1x5cm is the weakest, the 1x1x10cm is the next strongest, and the 1x2x5cm has the most force application. In other words, gauss alone does not tell you strength of the flux being applied.
Hope this answers your question.
So magnets don't affect frequency just amplitude or strength of the signal. Correct?
The frequency of the string determines the frequency of the electric signal
Vince Anthony
Magnet type changes the dynamic response & frequency balance. Alnico 2 is compressed & rolls off the bass & highs, whereas Ceramic pumps the bass & highs R jaggy & annoying.
Nice and “technicalish”! 👍🏽
Hi Sir, what if you use n52 neodymium bar magnet on a humbucker? How will it sound?
super hot!!!
@@DylanTalksTone can you make a video for it with regular humbucker?
Wow this is terrible maybe do so research before giving a seminar on electricity you have so much misinformation here .
The electrons in a static wire next to a static magnet do not oscillate. Electrons, and therefore induced current, only flows if the wire or the magnet moves. Your table of magnet strengths against alloy numbers is incorrect. It should be A3, A2, A4 and A5. The alloy numbers actually indicate when the alloy was developed. A2 was formulated first then, because of the US Bill of Strategic Materials which gives military use priority, Cobalt became very difficult to get. Alnico 3 or rather AlNi 3 has no cobalt and although developed after Alnico 2, AlNi 3 is a weaker magnetic material. As far as Fender were concerned they always wanted to used the strongest alloy they could. Gibson didn't seem to care what the alloy was as long the magnet was roughly the right shape to fit their pickups.
Thanks. You saved me from 'splaining things.
Tone is the most important choosing a magnet, we have amplifiers
I think the AC component emitted by the pickups isn't the answer to your question. You're not talking about the tone, the dynamic range of the output, or about the topic. I'm not saying your video is bad but, it really doesn't answer the Alnico 3 vs Alnivo 5. The output goes to an amplifier anyway, and you're gonna choose what gain you want. It's not really a matter of AC voltage. This video would be a bit more appropriate to answer this : "How does pickup position affect my sound"
MrMeiryou lol.... it's how a pickup works.... AC voltage. The voltage you send to the amp affects everything. The pickup position is a different concept entirely
Hey Dylan, how's it going buddy? So, I have an epiphone firebird 7 & it has alnico 5 mini humbuckers, I love the warm clean tone it produces but as soon as I add a fuzz or any dirt pedal I doesn't respond as punchy or as loud as my other guitar which has an alnico 5 humbucker. The humbucker is still louder than the mini humbucker, I am clueless because both has alnico 5 but differs in size. I am thinking of changing only the bridge pick to a Seymour Duncan Ceramic Custom Mini Humbucker : www.seymourduncan.com/pickup/custom-mini-humbucker-bridge & leaving the middle + neck pickups as it is. I wanna have the warm clean tone when I play clean & punchy dirt tone when I hit the dirt pedal. What do you think, I need some advice please.
Not a word about tone, unfortunately. Thanks
More power equals more power..OK but was much more interested in the tone
...Xcept I don't say NEE-kel, so I say Alnico.
a grown man with a batman shirt .
The Carl Rove of pickups lol
Sean Silva ?
lol google Carl Rove you will see why I said that lol
oh yeah please answer my question on my volume pot mystery :)
karlroveholdingawhiteboard.tumblr.com/
Zzzzzzz....
For real. This stuff is SO boring.
Do your homework before trying to educate others, please. C- for accuracy.
My main complaint about all of your videos is this: SHOW DON'T TELL!!!
Not so will explained, need clearer, more fluent and prepared speech backed up with scientific laws...