i recently 'discovered' the cloth wire and just really enjoy working with it. Normally I use teflon coated wire for hifi projects but the cloth wire feels right in a guitar, and not having to strip the ends is convenient
When I upgraded the switch and wiring in my telecaster I went with the cloth wire, mostly because I wanted it to be a more authentic look, but also like you mentioned inexpensive guitars come with cheap wire and the wire my guitar came with was so thin and fragile I was afraid it would rip apart if I wasn’t careful. Also, my soldering skills aren’t great and I’ve melted the shielding on pvc covered wire before, so the push back is more convenient for me.
Man I love the knowledge you drop on these guitar myths, and how you back it up with facts. Your channel does something I’ve seen no other do, and there’s so many people out there who could benefit from the knowledge you have to share. I’ve seen guys even at the pro level who just believe certain things just Bc they’ve heard misinformation for years. This really is a unique, and excellent channel. I wish I’d found you on TH-cam many years ago, before I discovered so many things the hard way. I’ve even learned some new things from watching your videos that I had never heard before. Thanks for such great content!
Dielectric constants of the materials mentioned in this video just in case anyone is interested (lower is better but as Dylan explains it really doesn't matter for wiring a guitar): Cotton: 1.3-1.4 Polytetra Fluoroethylene (PTFE aka Teflon): 2.0 Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC): 3.4
Sounds like there might be a market for fancy looking pvc wire, since so many comments mention the aesthetics of cloth wire; does look nicer than plastic primary color wire!
Interesting videos. I have some cloth wire coming in the post and its good to know it make no difference either way. Even though when installed it is not visible I kinda like the aesthetic. Goes with the 50's tech that has been amazingly durable. Finally changing my first gen EMG single coil pickups for some passive pickups and taking the active tone pots out as well to get back to basics. These videos have been great for information and perspective on how to do a good install.
Thanks for vid, always informative. For me I always use the cloth, not for tone, it's just easier to work with and you can bend it to make a cleaner looking job.
This reminds me of a 4 year-old comment I read on a Tele forum where a very smart guy said that the quality of tone cap makes absolutely no difference on a passive circuit, such as a guitar. He said that buying Orange/Vishay caps is just a waste of money because ceramic is fine. The cork-sniffing that goes on in guitar gear is really something! CONFESSION: I totally bought into the marketing pitch about Orange Vishay caps being superior. I wasn't aware that anyone thought different wire insulators were superior, but I did just realize that my push-back wiring on my Fender Original '57/'62 pickups is a big problem for me because I play my guitar in the swimming pool. Dammit!
The advantage of buying orange drop caps is that they can come in 5% tolerance versions. Also the build quality is good. I accidentally burned one with my soldering iron and it still worked fine. Also supposedly they can tolerate high humidity environments. So you’re paying extra for peace of mind. That said, the cheap $1 caps are fine and most likely will probably work for the rest of your life
They’re all good. Cloth covered is fine. I tend to prefer the plastic covered ones. Stripping it is easy and they can come pretinned too. The cloth covered ones are great but the brittle quality makes me slightly nervous.
a good follow up would be guitar cable differences.too many types to compare,but main points grounding sheilding wire,and resistance.i almost destroyed a 80 ovation acoustic not knowing a cable too long was not not letting the passive piezo signal thru,took it piezo n control box apart but luckly put back together right,,used a shorter cable,big difference
This may not be applicable as applicable to guitar wiring, but electrons do not travel through wire, they travel on the surface. Stranded wire has more surface on which current can travel. Therefore stranded wire is more conductive than solid wire of the same gauge/size, and as you have pointed out it, is more flexible and easier to work with. I always hated working with cloth-covered wire, as the coating unravels. Teflon-coated stranded wire is hard to beat due to the fact that the coating doesn't melt or turn black when soldering delicate connections, and appears more professionally done.
I am a 58 year old man who is getting back into the guitar. I picked up a Squire strat and looking for new pickups. I am a classic rock, country, blues man. What do you think would be best? Tex-Mex sound? Thanks Dave
Thanks for the video, Dylan. Very helpful, as always. You didn't mention anything about wire gauge. I've seen everything from 28 to 22 AWG used. What's the most appropriate gauge for connecting a 3-way toggle switch to a pot in a Les Paul? Thanks again.
Larger wire (lower gauge number) is better for low electrical resistance and high physical durability. Copper is better than aluminum or mystery pot metal. Copper is actually better than just about anything other than Silver. Gold is less conductive than Copper but doesn't oxidize, so it's sometimes useful for plating on connectors. Copper will be chemically stable with tin-lead solder. Remember to clean off any oxide from the objects before soldering them. Clean and tin the tip of the soldering iron before heating up the connection.
Cloth is nicer to work with - especially the pre-soldered stuff. And especially with solderless pot kits like Obsidian Wire that need the wire to be a bit stiff. But never had any illusions it sounded any different or was "better" mechanically - especially after ripping about half a mile of the stuff out of the walls of our old house when we bought it.
TFE (Tetraflouroethylene) is pure Teflon wire insulation. PTFE (Polytetraflouroethylene) is PVC coated Teflon wire insulation and as such there is not a lot of Teflon in it. There is a big difference in these two types of wire insulation as far as cost per foot (four to five times the cost) and electrical specifications and performance. TFE is much superior to PTFE in all aspects of insulation performance and workability. Some performance benefits of TFE is a much higher temperature rating (I actually held a let match to a TFE wire and it was not harmed by the flame at all) and the voltage insulation resistance is off the charts. In fact, it has not been verified last I check but I have installed it in installations were the voltage was in excess of 4.6kV and it was more than up to the task. Try either of these test with PTFE insulation and then you will know that their is a big difference between the them.
I like pushback wire for the solid parts of a pickguard, it looks neat and doesn't move around. But from the last pot/switch to the jack, other cable works better. Also i find it hard to find vitage style wire that does'nt break easy. I've often encountered problems related to broken wire just at the sleeve of a pushback wire. it can't always be spotted with the eye. Question: do you know of any standard that applies to vintage wire, code of some sort to identify specific qualities military/professional grade or something like that? Did't Fender use cloth wire because Leo started making radios, and eventually it was used in his guitar-amps and then guitars ? Great info,very interesting.
I think I missed something key here. You mention how the dielectric value doesn't matter because it's just electrons escaping the copper and becoming heat, the insulation stops it and you have some loss but the better value means it can deal with that better. Now I understood the electrons don't return to the wire because of that insulation, but in that case what would the insulation help if you're still gonna have the loss, but just deal better with the heat? Or is it that the electrons escape the insulation and become heat and the good insulation stops them from escaping and becoming heat, but instead staying as signal?
Hey Dylan, what is 3C Shielded wire? Is it a particular wire that is wrapped with 2 others? Also, if you are installing a single coil pickup with 3C shielded and the other pickup with PVC, that is not a problem because each goes to separate pots?
What type of wire should I use in guitars? Should I use shielded. Or those single conductor copper wires with a ground all in the same insulator or run the ground with a separate wire. How about from the 3 way pickup toggle switch to the control cavity, should I use one of those shielded one insulator with three separate conductors inside? Thanks
For the longer runs, such as to and from the 3 way switch, shielded cable is a good idea. Runs between the pots are short and you can get away with not using shielded cable there, especially if the cavity is shielded.
We put dielectric connectors on water htr pipes to break electrolysis.Why not a rubber coating.It was a rubber washer with a teflon interior threads.I get that lower watt/volts are somewaht irrelevant at these levelsSo it doesent matter so they go for the ptef product cause of price?Seems like I should be more concerned about signals leaking in,not out.Oops I got to the end,you answered all my questions
Took electronics in H.S. ('72) electrician all my life, your exactly right. My only disagreement would be with the voltage and current in a guitar, then the wire being so short, I doubt you would hear a difference in ANY wire. I've been arguing wood affecting guitar tone, not "tonewood", no such thing, but have people tell me wire and pot's make more difference than wood. Use the word psycho-acoustics about wood. Given the pot and cap values are equal, that's where psycho-acoustics takes place. Won't get into PU's, yes they color tone. I was told by one guy, the electronics is what makes the tone and wood doesn't matter at all. If you took PU's out of a strat and put in a tele it would sound exactly like the strat did! Anyway, good tech info in your vid.
I don't have a lot of knowledge in electronics, i earned my living developing software, but i teach myself a bit about electronics here and there, and i love tweaking and playing guitar. The difference between good sounding guitar and crap sounding guitar as far as my experience teach me are just bad joints, crapped out components, and improper wiring. I don't believe in any tonewood, or vintage electronic component bulshittery. Hundreds of dollar of vintage electronic components and wire is just a waste of money you can spend on a good pickup, tuning machine, bridge, fret wire, or nut that can make your guitar more enjoyable. And because of all the myth sorrounding the guitar community, i always have a hard time differentiate between electronic components that are pricey because they are good (well functioning, reliable, and long lasting) from those which are pricey because of the vintage status.
@@bambangkurniawan5634 , Ive been involved in electronics all my adult life and I seem to have an ability to understand most stuff, (my wife say's I can fix anything), not true. Software escapes me big time. You nailed it on the vintage electronics, It's for a vintage LOOK only. Incorrect wiring, bad solder joints, etc. will make a difference. The ohm value of a pot is the only critical factor for tone, not the brand or how old it is, sorry Mr. Bonamassa, and the value and tolerance of the cap, not what type it is. Now paying more for good quality is smart as it will last longer and function better. Tonewood is a really bad term. Tho with a basic understanding of physics you realize that what the guitar is made of does affect it's tone or more so it's character. More than minimal but not huge or the largest factor. Tone is from pickup, and everything else shapes that. Wood, joint's, frets, it all shapes the character of the tone. With all things equal in a guitar the wood is noticeable.
"If you took PU's out of a strat and put in a tele it would sound exactly like the strat did!" Hmm, I haven't tried that, but you may be right. Scale length is the same for both, and pickup placement looks pretty much the same too. You would lose the center pickup and the in-between positions that mix the center pickup with either the neck or bridge, and gain the neck + bridge switch wiring.
I do prefer the cloth wire, because of not needing to fanny around with a sharp knife on the insulation. I do use braided stuff for 'Gibson-a-likes, for the look, but while I do like the pushback insulation, the braid is a PITA to solder. Sonically? WIthin reason, wire is wire is wire... We're not wiring sensitive measuring equipment over great distances here.
I find the cloth wire so much easier to work with...pushing back the cloth is much easier than trimming the plastic, and when released it covers right up to the solder better...never ever had an issue with brittleness, and prefer the way it can be shaped and stay there and easier to push through ...solid wire is much easier to solder i find, less mess if done correctly....
Thank you for sharing all this, Dylan. I recently found your channel and I'm learning a lot from it. Cheers mate ! Is that a Ducati 916 SP on your wall, btw ?
It's Apples and Oranges, comparing wiring inside the guitar, that just has an insulator wrapped around it, vs the guitar cable between the ax and the amp, which also has shielding, plus the insulator around it - due to the shielding, the guitar cable has capacitance, which increases moderately with distance - and this capacitance interacts with your tone by slowly killing off your high end. This is not the same thing as the near unmeasurable interaction with the insulation alone - in either the external guitar cable, or the internal guitar wiring.
Yes, there's distributed capacitance in the shielded instrument cable between the center conductor and the grounded shield, measureable in picofarads per foot of cable length. That's why you should keep your instrument cables under 10 feet for best treble response.
@@JohnShalamskas Damn! Now i have to cut my instrument cable in half. Does cavity shielding technique we tend to do when we trying to protect the instrument from EMI affect the guitar frequency response in a meaningful way as well?
@@bambangkurniawan5634 Cavity shielding shouldn't have a noticeable effect on the tone, other than keeping out radio frequency interference (attenuating hum, static, local AM radio stations, cellphones, etc.) I don't notice any tone suck from 6-10 feet of instrument cable, but longer runs start to perceptably roll off the high frequency audio. 20 feet is definitely noticeable. My cable is low capacitance with a braided copper shield, about 70pF per foot. 10 feet is 700 pf. 15 feet of this cable is like putting a 1 uF capacitor across your amp input. Cheap cables can be much worse. Cheap cables often have crappy spiral wrap shielding, or no shielding at all - it acts like an antenna for hum and radio signals.
Oxygen Free Cable? Given such short runs, tiny voltages / current it sounds like insulation is almost irrelevant. Good conductivity, sounds like it might be the more important characteristic. With that in mind, speaker boys (with those long runs) use Oxygen Free Cable with as many fine strands as possible, to get the lowest possible resistance. Resistance is the property that the wire introduces to the equation. So surely reducing Resistance reduces heat, reduces signal lose???? Also as a guitar uses such a small amount surely to an individual the cost is practically irrelevant? Does anybody have any thoughts on Oxygen Free Cable?
Never in a million years would I have expected cloth wire to sound different or better than PVC. I use cloth for two reasons, I like the simply push back for quick soldering and it looks cool. That's it. I expect and get no benefit than that. I like to push back on the cloth and soldering without additional cutting. I think it looks cool (and no one sees under there but me anyway). Would I halt a project if I couldn't get cloth? @$%* no!! Normal wire works great. I mostly blame Fender for the 'look cool'. Since Texas Specials et al had cloth leads, and then other pickup makers had them (was Seymour first with Antiquities?) regardless... to me it looked silly to have cloth wire off of pickups then everything else PVC. All cloth looks cool. I won't debate tone between them, that's silly. I will only say I prefer working with cloth, and prefer how it looks (in a place that doesn't really matter because only I get to see under the pickguard) I think you'd have to concede with those personal preferences, certainly nothing wrong with cloth. If it were a PITA to work with, I wouldn't bother, but I find it easier to work with instead. So, in short, I agree with everything you said, but will continue to use cloth anyway. Looks and the preference of push back insulation, if you even prefer that... are the valid reasons to use cloth imo. I do applaud your mythbusting on this though. We have WAY too many snake oil salesmen in the guitar industry. 'Buy this snake oil and increase tone by 17.3%' crap everywhere you look. As far as tone, cloth wire is snake oil. Looks cool and I think it's easy to work with. That's not snake oil, that's just my preference.
Thanks fer th very thorough tutorial, I greatly enjoyed it, Dylan! (Probly still gonna order push back cloth on mine, jus cause it makes me happy, though ;-) )
The insulation is not the only thing to deal with. The quality of the wire is more important. I use solid silver wire and it's even more conductive than copper. The fact is: it's not cheap, but you must know what you want? TONE or just tone?
Paul Kasper quality of wire DOES make a difference, but copper vs silver, I dunno maybe some microscopic difference. 99% of “tone” comes from your fingertips. I’ve heard people make $99 squires sound amazing!!!
While there might not be an audible difference between Copper and Silver wire in the interconnections in the guitar, there could be a difference in the durability of the connections. I can guarantee you that there will be a difference in your bank account - Silver wire is very expensive.
Great video. Very informative! Thanks! BTW... PTFE IS Teflon so... saying "there is a bit of Teflon in your PTFE" is like saying "there is a bit of water in your H2O", isn`t it? :-) Anyways.. keep up the good work M8 :-)
I was going to comment about that too. Not at all "a type if pvc" either. Lol but I like his videos and generally agree with his points of view, so I watch, like, and comment :)
I have seen products professing the virtues of silver in the wiring of pickups and guitars. I assume it is because it is a good conductor. What difference (if any) would be notcieable using such wiring in different places of the signal path?
@@andymellor9056 True, although there's a high-end set of pickups that uses silver wire instead of copper, and in that case you might notice a difference. The pickup windings are very thin wire, with many turns, so perhaps the lower resistance silver will make a difference in the impedance at audio frequency, which could affect the frequency response.
@@JohnShalamskas silver is very ductile too, so you might end up with finer wire. There will be tonal differences too due to the windings being closer to the magnets.
Cloth wire cant be better than say a poly insulation if that was true then all Electrical wiring would have never changed ,cloth wiring was used years ago because poly wasnt around ,if you look at Cat5 wiring that is used for computer systems and communication the insulator is Poly only difference is the conductors are twisted to cancel signals between the conductors and also a shield,the same thing as 3 phase High voltage the conductors are twisted to cancel each other out so If you want to cancel hum or noise the conductors can be twisted together so that they dont induce current to each conductor or signal in this case ,like you say were talking very minimal voltage and theres no current involved at least not measurable,shielded cable is good but only grounded on one end of the cable ,that being said metal cable is good but not nesessary for guitars because we now have shielded poly cable,there are many insulators for High voltage and poly isnt really used and yes im a High voltage Electrician and could go on for a while
I only use unicorn hairs for my wires. 🐰👍🏼 Great information, once again. I learned so much today. I have cloth wires in most of my guitars that I've done work to, only because I generally order those pre-soldered kits and drop them in. They always seem to come with the same fare...cloth wires and orange drops. I'm still learning how to wire up a full strat pickguard from scratch...can you do a video of that? I have HH and want to split the coils on both neck and bridge pickups. I'd also love to learn to wire a neck "always on" switch to the circuit as well. I would like to use a five-way switch instead of a 3-way switch. I can't find any information on this schematic anywhere. Thanks, Dylan!! 🎸🤘
Cloth covered wire is more aesthetically pleasing to me and other I know. Why hasn't someone just made ptfe wire with a cloth covering over that just for looks? Could be a good money maker especially in the guitar world. If anyone does, please get ahold of me and send me a giant thank you check. Lol.
@@DylanTalksTone I was sitting here wondering where the base word dialect- fit into that and then I looked up the definition. It makes more sense now. And describes this video pretty accurately 👍 From Wikipedia(I think) "Dialectic or dialectics (Greek: διαλεκτική, dialektikḗ; related to dialogue), also known as the dialectical method, is at base a discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned arguments."
WTf, It is this simple. If people can't understand the fact that the guitar electrical system is dealing with such a small volume of electron flow. If you don't or just can't understand when talking guitar circuits your basically dealing with high frequencys of low-level electron flow that's going on in a guitar circuit. if you cannot understand that cable size and material are Irrelevant in any real meaningful way within the guitar circuit. Then those people should not be working on, messing with, or even giving an opinion on the subject. It is that simple. Anyone who can't or doesn't understand this fact, is, Therefore, ignorant on the subject of the electrical system and guitar circuits and how they work. Those who are ignorant of something should not be giving an opinion. If you are taking offense to the word ignorant then you are ignorant to the meaning of the word. The only real factor in a guitar circuit is interference and shielding factors as long as your wires are larger than the coil wires of the pickup it does not matter the type you use. you could even use smaller wire than what is used in your pickups and really not notice a difference. However, I'm just sticking with larger than coil wire to stick with the general specs of guitar manufacturers. However, PVC VS cloth is irrelevant to signal flow and tone Periode fact not opinion. you can have opinions and anything that is not a fact. However. this is a measurable fact.
i recently 'discovered' the cloth wire and just really enjoy working with it. Normally I use teflon coated wire for hifi projects but the cloth wire feels right in a guitar, and not having to strip the ends is convenient
I think is wonderful you take your time to explain your knowledge to people
I love your honesty and clarity Dylan!!! Best part of the video 1:15-1:30 👍
When I upgraded the switch and wiring in my telecaster I went with the cloth wire, mostly because I wanted it to be a more authentic look, but also like you mentioned inexpensive guitars come with cheap wire and the wire my guitar came with was so thin and fragile I was afraid it would rip apart if I wasn’t careful. Also, my soldering skills aren’t great and I’ve melted the shielding on pvc covered wire before, so the push back is more convenient for me.
Man I love the knowledge you drop on these guitar myths, and how you back it up with facts. Your channel does something I’ve seen no other do, and there’s so many people out there who could benefit from the knowledge you have to share. I’ve seen guys even at the pro level who just believe certain things just Bc they’ve heard misinformation for years. This really is a unique, and excellent channel. I wish I’d found you on TH-cam many years ago, before I discovered so many things the hard way. I’ve even learned some new things from watching your videos that I had never heard before. Thanks for such great content!
Dielectric constants of the materials mentioned in this video just in case anyone is interested (lower is better but as Dylan explains it really doesn't matter for wiring a guitar):
Cotton: 1.3-1.4
Polytetra Fluoroethylene (PTFE aka Teflon): 2.0
Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC): 3.4
Sounds like there might be a market for fancy looking pvc wire, since so many comments mention the aesthetics of cloth wire; does look nicer than plastic primary color wire!
Interesting videos.
I have some cloth wire coming in the post and its good to know it make no difference either way.
Even though when installed it is not visible I kinda like the aesthetic. Goes with the 50's tech that has been amazingly durable.
Finally changing my first gen EMG single coil pickups for some passive pickups and taking the active tone pots out as well to get back to basics.
These videos have been great for information and perspective on how to do a good install.
Should you twist the wires together ?
? Always learn a lot from you, thank you. What size (gauge) wire is used from pot to switch to Jack?
Great video. Can you do one with the difference between 50 wiring vs actual wiring?
Thanks for vid, always informative. For me I always use the cloth, not for tone, it's just easier to work with and you can bend it to make a cleaner looking job.
This reminds me of a 4 year-old comment I read on a Tele forum where a very smart guy said that the quality of tone cap makes absolutely no difference on a passive circuit, such as a guitar. He said that buying Orange/Vishay caps is just a waste of money because ceramic is fine. The cork-sniffing that goes on in guitar gear is really something! CONFESSION: I totally bought into the marketing pitch about Orange Vishay caps being superior.
I wasn't aware that anyone thought different wire insulators were superior, but I did just realize that my push-back wiring on my Fender Original '57/'62 pickups is a big problem for me because I play my guitar in the swimming pool. Dammit!
Ceramic caps are microphonic. Also the capacitance value drifts a lot with temperature changes. But they are small, rugged, and cheap.
The advantage of buying orange drop caps is that they can come in 5% tolerance versions. Also the build quality is good. I accidentally burned one with my soldering iron and it still worked fine. Also supposedly they can tolerate high humidity environments. So you’re paying extra for peace of mind. That said, the cheap $1 caps are fine and most likely will probably work for the rest of your life
Basically it’s what’s on the inside more than the outside.
Great video
What are the different ways you can take advantage of those 5 lead wires coming from the pickup? I bet you could make a whole video on that
So is Kapton a better dielectric?
I personally just use cloth covered push-back wire because it's just more convenient. I don't have to strip and tin my wires before I can use it
Bingo
same here. It's so easy to work with and it's pre tinned, so why not.
@Boony Tooty lol yeah so what? it was also used on real vintage guitars. what's your point?
@David Wang Things made back in the day didn’t break down like they do today. Half the stuff we buy today breaks down in a couple years.
They’re all good. Cloth covered is fine. I tend to prefer the plastic covered ones. Stripping it is easy and they can come pretinned too. The cloth covered ones are great but the brittle quality makes me slightly nervous.
a good follow up would be guitar cable differences.too many types to compare,but main points grounding sheilding wire,and resistance.i almost destroyed a 80 ovation acoustic not knowing a cable too long was not not letting the passive piezo signal thru,took it piezo n control box apart but luckly put back together right,,used a shorter cable,big difference
This may not be applicable as applicable to guitar wiring, but electrons do not travel through wire, they travel on the surface. Stranded wire has more surface on which current can travel. Therefore stranded wire is more conductive than solid wire of the same gauge/size, and as you have pointed out it, is more flexible and easier to work with. I always hated working with cloth-covered wire, as the coating unravels. Teflon-coated stranded wire is hard to beat due to the fact that the coating doesn't melt or turn black when soldering delicate connections, and appears more professionally done.
Dylan , what gauge wire do you buy ? 18 ? 22?
I am a 58 year old man who is getting back into the guitar. I picked up a Squire strat and looking for new pickups. I am a classic rock, country, blues man. What do you think would be best? Tex-Mex sound?
Thanks
Dave
MIM Fender Strats have pickups some people like better than usa strats. But then some of the newer Squires are gig ready with just a food setup too.
Thanks for the video, Dylan. Very helpful, as always.
You didn't mention anything about wire gauge. I've seen everything from 28 to 22 AWG used. What's the most appropriate gauge for connecting a 3-way toggle switch to a pot in a Les Paul? Thanks again.
Larger wire (lower gauge number) is better for low electrical resistance and high physical durability. Copper is better than aluminum or mystery pot metal. Copper is actually better than just about anything other than Silver. Gold is less conductive than Copper but doesn't oxidize, so it's sometimes useful for plating on connectors. Copper will be chemically stable with tin-lead solder. Remember to clean off any oxide from the objects before soldering them. Clean and tin the tip of the soldering iron before heating up the connection.
@@JohnShalamskas John, you've got enough great info flowing out of you, you should have your own TH-cam channel!
Cloth is nicer to work with - especially the pre-soldered stuff. And especially with solderless pot kits like Obsidian Wire that need the wire to be a bit stiff. But never had any illusions it sounded any different or was "better" mechanically - especially after ripping about half a mile of the stuff out of the walls of our old house when we bought it.
PTFE is Teflon. Teflon is a product brand name of the E. I. du Pont de Nemours and Company.
Wow, this video is from 2015 and you only beat me to this by two weeks. Damn.
I know. I debated on wether I should comment, or not.
TFE (Tetraflouroethylene) is pure Teflon wire insulation. PTFE (Polytetraflouroethylene) is PVC coated Teflon wire insulation and as such there is not a lot of Teflon in it. There is a big difference in these two types of wire insulation as far as cost per foot (four to five times the cost) and electrical specifications and performance. TFE is much superior to PTFE in all aspects of insulation performance and workability. Some performance benefits of TFE is a much higher temperature rating (I actually held a let match to a TFE wire and it was not harmed by the flame at all) and the voltage insulation resistance is off the charts. In fact, it has not been verified last I check but I have installed it in installations were the voltage was in excess of 4.6kV and it was more than up to the task. Try either of these test with PTFE insulation and then you will know that their is a big difference between the them.
I like pushback wire for the solid parts of a pickguard, it looks neat and doesn't move around. But from the last pot/switch to the jack, other cable works better.
Also i find it hard to find vitage style wire that does'nt break easy. I've often encountered problems related to broken wire just at the sleeve of a pushback wire. it can't always be spotted with the eye.
Question: do you know of any standard that applies to vintage wire, code of some sort to identify specific qualities military/professional grade or something like that?
Did't Fender use cloth wire because Leo started making radios, and eventually it was used in his guitar-amps and then guitars ?
Great info,very interesting.
So would cloth wire make a bigger difference inside a tube amp?
I think I missed something key here. You mention how the dielectric value doesn't matter because it's just electrons escaping the copper and becoming heat, the insulation stops it and you have some loss but the better value means it can deal with that better. Now I understood the electrons don't return to the wire because of that insulation, but in that case what would the insulation help if you're still gonna have the loss, but just deal better with the heat? Or is it that the electrons escape the insulation and become heat and the good insulation stops them from escaping and becoming heat, but instead staying as signal?
Hey Dylan, what is 3C Shielded wire? Is it a particular wire that is wrapped with 2 others? Also, if you are installing a single coil pickup with 3C shielded and the other pickup with PVC, that is not a problem because each goes to separate pots?
What type of wire should I use in guitars? Should I use shielded. Or those single conductor copper wires with a ground all in the same insulator or run the ground with a separate wire. How about from the 3 way pickup toggle switch to the control cavity, should I use one of those shielded one insulator with three separate conductors inside?
Thanks
For the longer runs, such as to and from the 3 way switch, shielded cable is a good idea. Runs between the pots are short and you can get away with not using shielded cable there, especially if the cavity is shielded.
John Shalamskas thanks for the info 👍
Paul Bigsby put PVC wires on his pickups...starting in the late 40s!
great video. thank you.
We put dielectric connectors on water htr pipes to break electrolysis.Why not a rubber coating.It was a rubber washer with a teflon interior threads.I get that lower watt/volts
are somewaht irrelevant at these levelsSo it doesent matter so they go for the ptef product cause of price?Seems like I should be more concerned about signals leaking in,not out.Oops I got to the end,you answered all my questions
Took electronics in H.S. ('72) electrician all my life, your exactly right. My only disagreement would be with the voltage and current in a guitar, then the wire being so short, I doubt you would hear a difference in ANY wire. I've been arguing wood affecting guitar tone, not "tonewood", no such thing, but have people tell me wire and pot's make more difference than wood. Use the word psycho-acoustics about wood. Given the pot and cap values are equal, that's where psycho-acoustics takes place. Won't get into PU's, yes they color tone. I was told by one guy, the electronics is what makes the tone and wood doesn't matter at all. If you took PU's out of a strat and put in a tele it would sound exactly like the strat did! Anyway, good tech info in your vid.
I don't have a lot of knowledge in electronics, i earned my living developing software, but i teach myself a bit about electronics here and there, and i love tweaking and playing guitar. The difference between good sounding guitar and crap sounding guitar as far as my experience teach me are just bad joints, crapped out components, and improper wiring. I don't believe in any tonewood, or vintage electronic component bulshittery. Hundreds of dollar of vintage electronic components and wire is just a waste of money you can spend on a good pickup, tuning machine, bridge, fret wire, or nut that can make your guitar more enjoyable.
And because of all the myth sorrounding the guitar community, i always have a hard time differentiate between electronic components that are pricey because they are good (well functioning, reliable, and long lasting) from those which are pricey because of the vintage status.
@@bambangkurniawan5634 , Ive been involved in electronics all my adult life and I seem to have an ability to understand most stuff, (my wife say's I can fix anything), not true. Software escapes me big time. You nailed it on the vintage electronics, It's for a vintage LOOK only. Incorrect wiring, bad solder joints, etc. will make a difference. The ohm value of a pot is the only critical factor for tone, not the brand or how old it is, sorry Mr. Bonamassa, and the value and tolerance of the cap, not what type it is. Now paying more for good quality is smart as it will last longer and function better. Tonewood is a really bad term. Tho with a basic understanding of physics you realize that what the guitar is made of does affect it's tone or more so it's character. More than minimal but not huge or the largest factor. Tone is from pickup, and everything else shapes that. Wood, joint's, frets, it all shapes the character of the tone. With all things equal in a guitar the wood is noticeable.
"If you took PU's out of a strat and put in a tele it would sound exactly like the strat did!" Hmm, I haven't tried that, but you may be right. Scale length is the same for both, and pickup placement looks pretty much the same too. You would lose the center pickup and the in-between positions that mix the center pickup with either the neck or bridge, and gain the neck + bridge switch wiring.
@@JohnShalamskas , Well the pickup would sound the same, it's the same pickup, but the overall tone of the two guitars wouldn't be.
I do prefer the cloth wire, because of not needing to fanny around with a sharp knife on the insulation. I do use braided stuff for 'Gibson-a-likes, for the look, but while I do like the pushback insulation, the braid is a PITA to solder.
Sonically? WIthin reason, wire is wire is wire... We're not wiring sensitive measuring equipment over great distances here.
very useful for newbies, thank you
OK, Dylan . . .
why Stranded and not solid?
(As alleged elsewhere)
Do people just not use silicone wires at all?
This makes the EMG solder less setups intriguing. BTW Teflon is PTFE, just a brand name.
great detailed info. thank you.
I find the cloth wire so much easier to work with...pushing back the cloth is much easier than trimming the plastic, and when released it covers right up to the solder better...never ever had an issue with brittleness, and prefer the way it can be shaped and stay there and easier to push through ...solid wire is much easier to solder i find, less mess if done correctly....
Thank you for sharing all this, Dylan. I recently found your channel and I'm learning a lot from it. Cheers mate !
Is that a Ducati 916 SP on your wall, btw ?
Interesting, with some good points, but why are there commercials every minute?
Great job! It's all a matter of physics.
It's Apples and Oranges, comparing wiring inside the guitar, that just has an insulator wrapped around it, vs the guitar cable between the ax and the amp, which also has shielding, plus the insulator around it - due to the shielding, the guitar cable has capacitance, which increases moderately with distance - and this capacitance interacts with your tone by slowly killing off your high end. This is not the same thing as the near unmeasurable interaction with the insulation alone - in either the external guitar cable, or the internal guitar wiring.
Yes, there's distributed capacitance in the shielded instrument cable between the center conductor and the grounded shield, measureable in picofarads per foot of cable length. That's why you should keep your instrument cables under 10 feet for best treble response.
@@JohnShalamskas Damn! Now i have to cut my instrument cable in half.
Does cavity shielding technique we tend to do when we trying to protect the instrument from EMI affect the guitar frequency response in a meaningful way as well?
@@bambangkurniawan5634 Cavity shielding shouldn't have a noticeable effect on the tone, other than keeping out radio frequency interference (attenuating hum, static, local AM radio stations, cellphones, etc.) I don't notice any tone suck from 6-10 feet of instrument cable, but longer runs start to perceptably roll off the high frequency audio. 20 feet is definitely noticeable. My cable is low capacitance with a braided copper shield, about 70pF per foot. 10 feet is 700 pf. 15 feet of this cable is like putting a 1 uF capacitor across your amp input. Cheap cables can be much worse. Cheap cables often have crappy spiral wrap shielding, or no shielding at all - it acts like an antenna for hum and radio signals.
@@JohnShalamskas Agree on the guitar cable. I have 3 meters and 6 meters cable and experience a noticable difference when switching between the two.
The cable to the amp is technically a transmission line and should be analyzed as such.
great info sure learned something about all the myth
PTFE : Polytetrafluoroethylene. Originally developed by ICI for NASA . Saturn Five utilised a lot of it ,I was told.
PTFE is stable over a wide temperature range and in vacuum.
@@JohnShalamskas I used to sell the stuff in various forms 👍
great video thanks
Oxygen Free Cable?
Given such short runs, tiny voltages / current it sounds like insulation is almost irrelevant.
Good conductivity, sounds like it might be the more important characteristic.
With that in mind, speaker boys (with those long runs) use Oxygen Free Cable with as many fine strands as possible, to get the lowest possible resistance. Resistance is the property that the wire introduces to the equation. So surely reducing Resistance reduces heat, reduces signal lose????
Also as a guitar uses such a small amount surely to an individual the cost is practically irrelevant?
Does anybody have any thoughts on Oxygen Free Cable?
Never in a million years would I have expected cloth wire to sound different or better than PVC. I use cloth for two reasons, I like the simply push back for quick soldering and it looks cool. That's it. I expect and get no benefit than that. I like to push back on the cloth and soldering without additional cutting. I think it looks cool (and no one sees under there but me anyway). Would I halt a project if I couldn't get cloth? @$%* no!! Normal wire works great. I mostly blame Fender for the 'look cool'. Since Texas Specials et al had cloth leads, and then other pickup makers had them (was Seymour first with Antiquities?) regardless... to me it looked silly to have cloth wire off of pickups then everything else PVC. All cloth looks cool.
I won't debate tone between them, that's silly. I will only say I prefer working with cloth, and prefer how it looks (in a place that doesn't really matter because only I get to see under the pickguard) I think you'd have to concede with those personal preferences, certainly nothing wrong with cloth. If it were a PITA to work with, I wouldn't bother, but I find it easier to work with instead.
So, in short, I agree with everything you said, but will continue to use cloth anyway. Looks and the preference of push back insulation, if you even prefer that... are the valid reasons to use cloth imo.
I do applaud your mythbusting on this though. We have WAY too many snake oil salesmen in the guitar industry. 'Buy this snake oil and increase tone by 17.3%' crap everywhere you look. As far as tone, cloth wire is snake oil. Looks cool and I think it's easy to work with. That's not snake oil, that's just my preference.
What about wire gauge, and material of the wire?
Nope. Jist use whatever you have
Thanks fer th very thorough tutorial, I greatly enjoyed it, Dylan!
(Probly still gonna order push back cloth on mine, jus cause it makes me happy, though ;-) )
The insulation is not the only thing to deal with. The quality of the wire is more important. I use solid silver wire and it's even more conductive than copper. The fact is: it's not cheap, but you must know what you want? TONE or just tone?
Paul Kasper quality of wire DOES make a difference, but copper vs silver, I dunno maybe some microscopic difference. 99% of “tone” comes from your fingertips. I’ve heard people make $99 squires sound amazing!!!
While there might not be an audible difference between Copper and Silver wire in the interconnections in the guitar, there could be a difference in the durability of the connections. I can guarantee you that there will be a difference in your bank account - Silver wire is very expensive.
Great video Dylan. I knew this pvc vs cloth was a lot of bollocks. Just another marketing ruse.
Hello
Negligible . . ?
Great video. Very informative! Thanks!
BTW... PTFE IS Teflon so... saying "there is a bit of Teflon in your PTFE" is like saying "there is a bit of water in your H2O", isn`t it? :-)
Anyways.. keep up the good work M8 :-)
I was going to comment about that too. Not at all "a type if pvc" either. Lol but I like his videos and generally agree with his points of view, so I watch, like, and comment :)
I have seen products professing the virtues of silver in the wiring of pickups and guitars. I assume it is because it is a good conductor. What difference (if any) would be notcieable using such wiring in different places of the signal path?
I'd hazard a well educated guess and say no practical difference whatsoever except the cost will go up.
@@andymellor9056 True, although there's a high-end set of pickups that uses silver wire instead of copper, and in that case you might notice a difference. The pickup windings are very thin wire, with many turns, so perhaps the lower resistance silver will make a difference in the impedance at audio frequency, which could affect the frequency response.
@@JohnShalamskas True. The conductivity of silver is 5% better than that of copper, so for pickups they would be hotter for the same DC resistance.
@@JohnShalamskas silver is very ductile too, so you might end up with finer wire. There will be tonal differences too due to the windings being closer to the magnets.
❤️❤️❤️
Cloth wire cant be better than say a poly insulation if that was true then all Electrical wiring would have never changed ,cloth wiring was used years ago because poly wasnt around ,if you look at Cat5 wiring that is used for computer systems and communication the insulator is Poly only difference is the conductors are twisted to cancel signals between the conductors and also a shield,the same thing as 3 phase High voltage the conductors are twisted to cancel each other out so If you want to cancel hum or noise the conductors can be twisted together so that they dont induce current to each conductor or signal in this case ,like you say were talking very minimal voltage and theres no current involved at least not measurable,shielded cable is good but only grounded on one end of the cable ,that being said metal cable is good but not nesessary for guitars because we now have shielded poly cable,there are many insulators for High voltage and poly isnt really used and yes im a High voltage Electrician and could go on for a while
. . . and you can bet your little bippy Leo would have gone PVC had it been cheaper!
I only use unicorn hairs for my wires. 🐰👍🏼
Great information, once again. I learned so much today. I have cloth wires in most of my guitars that I've done work to, only because I generally order those pre-soldered kits and drop them in. They always seem to come with the same fare...cloth wires and orange drops. I'm still learning how to wire up a full strat pickguard from scratch...can you do a video of that? I have HH and want to split the coils on both neck and bridge pickups. I'd also love to learn to wire a neck "always on" switch to the circuit as well. I would like to use a five-way switch instead of a 3-way switch. I can't find any information on this schematic anywhere.
Thanks, Dylan!! 🎸🤘
Cloth covered wire is more aesthetically pleasing to me and other I know. Why hasn't someone just made ptfe wire with a cloth covering over that just for looks? Could be a good money maker especially in the guitar world. If anyone does, please get ahold of me and send me a giant thank you check. Lol.
So it's just basic nostalgia that draw people to cloth wire.
Tone-cloth.
It's Dialectic, sounds like you are saying Dialectric.
Lol.... no.... dialectic- the art of investigating truth
Dialectric - having the property of transmitting electrical force.
Both taken from Webster's.
@@DylanTalksTone I was sitting here wondering where the base word dialect- fit into that and then I looked up the definition. It makes more sense now. And describes this video pretty accurately 👍
From Wikipedia(I think)
"Dialectic or dialectics (Greek: διαλεκτική, dialektikḗ; related to dialogue), also known as the dialectical method, is at base a discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned arguments."
dielectric. Think "insulator."
WTf, It is this simple. If people can't understand the fact that the guitar electrical system is dealing with such a small volume of electron flow. If you don't or just can't understand when talking guitar circuits your basically dealing with high frequencys of low-level electron flow that's going on in a guitar circuit. if you cannot understand that cable size and material are Irrelevant in any real meaningful way within the guitar circuit. Then those people should not be working on, messing with, or even giving an opinion on the subject.
It is that simple. Anyone who can't or doesn't understand this fact, is, Therefore, ignorant on the subject of the electrical system and guitar circuits and how they work. Those who are ignorant of something should not be giving an opinion. If you are taking offense to the word ignorant then you are ignorant to the meaning of the word.
The only real factor in a guitar circuit is interference and shielding factors as long as your wires are larger than the coil wires of the pickup it does not matter the type you use. you could even use smaller wire than what is used in your pickups and really not notice a difference. However, I'm just sticking with larger than coil wire to stick with the general specs of guitar manufacturers. However, PVC VS cloth is irrelevant to signal flow and tone Periode fact not opinion. you can have opinions and anything that is not a fact. However. this is a measurable fact.
Likes 500 ;) 500V cap :p
But can grandma knit you a sweater out of pvc? Noooooo
Can you 3D print with cotton? Checkmate, Luddite!