Prob cuz its so easy for sniper to steal anything take a piss in it and throw that than it is to kill a medic steal his syringes and somehow draw piss from his body
The saving grace for jarate is everyone uses it selfishly. And when used that way its actually a balanced weapon that is both fun to use and fun to play against. Its only when used as a team weapon that is so OP. I really wish they would nerf it to allow airblast to remove the effect. And while they are at it airblast should remove mad milk.
@@peterisawesomeplease Nah maybe make it so the manmelter can remove those? The manmelter's whole thing is supporting teammates, but afterburn can already be removed by a flamethrower without giving up a flare or shotgun. Make it so the manmelter can remove those.
This weapon is a psychological weapon, not just because you're being injected with p1$$! But because the second someone gets hit by it and sees the yellow filter, they tend to panic and retreat
Yup, full-charge bodyshot enemy sniper with the Sleeper, and either they crumple in to a ragdoll, or are left running around like a headless chicken with piss on them at low health and miss their shot because you hit first.
The Sydney Sleeper is a sane man in a mad world. Applying 5 seconds of Jarate at range is useful... but the actual Jarate weapon applies it for 10 seconds in a massive AoE with good range to boot. Being unable to quickscope is more "fair" but when every other sniper can quickscope to one-shot most classes who cares about "fairness?" The Sydney Sleeper is that one anime protagonist who's holding back for "chivalry" or whatever, only you aren't so vastly overpowered to make your refusal to fight at full strength a noble act.
@@thatgoldenguy3272 unless the map has no flank routes i doubt theres nothing you can do. but if you mean hes a god lever sniper and can quickscope everybody, no matter how good their movement... yeah theres not much you can do about it. but that goes for a lot of classes besides heavy and spy.
I didn't even know you could shoot allies directly to extinguish them, it's the only rifle (huntsman excluded) I use because headshots are hard. Also it goes "pew"
I feel like you should have mentioned that the Sydney Sleeper used to have explosive headshots in regular gamemodes, but instead of damage, it spread jarate. So you basically had a rapid fire jar of jarate, and valve changed it to mini crit headshots because they thought it was too overpowered. Personally I wanna see it return, it fixes a lot of problems while making the 5 second effect somewhat understandable, because you're just pumping these shots out.
I came close to mentioning it a couple of times in my script, but decided against it since the video ended up being long enough as it stands. Personally, I'm not sure if the mechanic is exactly overpowered, but I would call it frustrating if you end up being punished for your teammate being headshot, especially if you're being wary of the Sniper and hiding behind cover. If anything, I'd like to see it return as an MvM upgrade similar to Mad Milk Syringes.
I always thought the explosive jarate headshots was a really interesting idea and was sad to see it being replaced by some rather mediocre stats. Trading single target elimination for long range crowd control seemed like a good way to balance a support oriented weapon. I never got to try it out in game however, so I don't know if it was overpowered. What was everybody's experience with the weapon when it used to have explosive jarate headshots?
@@MajorKlods It was fun. Upset they removed it. Since you couldn't just instantly kill most targets it allowed you to actually fullfil a support role. Never got hit by it though. Never clumped up around teammates enough for that. That just makes you a target for the actual explosive classes. Being able to insta-kill is still better though.
@@ninjashot37 Yeah but I understand why it might be frudtrated, since not only did it punsih players dtanding in a sniper sightline, it punished teammates who were standing next to them even if thry were hiding behidn cover. Maybe make it so the people around them have 5 second jarate while the headshot person gets 10 second jarate?
@@fishstickonastick-gaming I mean its the thing that made the Rifle stand out and be actually Interesting, rather then just a straight downgrade to in the Stock rifle. Their are ways to balance it. 1. Fully Charged headshot to get the Explosion. 2. Splashed players get 5 seconds while the shot player gets the full 10 seconds just like the Jars.
I remember when it used to create a jarate explosion on headshot, but that got removed because they thought it was overpowered for some reason. So now it just feels kind of awkward to use without that stat.
I used to love that stat, but sadly, yeah... it was kinda absurd. Remember the Jarate video where he talked about Jarate invalidating an entire push through the throw of a single item. Jarate splash headshots were that, but at a much greater range and without a metered cooldown.
@@joedingo7022 probably for the best, think fish’s balance works WAY better. You ever die because a demo’s pill hits your teammate and you die from the splash damage? This sounds like an even worse version of that.
I'm surprised that Fish didn't mention the fact that having Jarate with the slowing upgrade in MVM makes Sydney sleeper slow giants as well. Helps with robot scouts
It also still gets explosive headshots, which makes it actually a somewhat competent challenger for the heat maker against giants since you can stay far away and don’t hav to get close to throw jarate.
You forgot to talk about the hidden stat that every Strange Killstreak version of this weapon is automatically renamed to some kind of piss-related joke.
@@HowToMolly Honestly its not too big a deal cuz Fish isn't the one rebalancing the server. He's just the owner mostly. Its the head dev Shaker whose doing all the actual rebalance work and testing out Fish's rebalance ideas.
@@cantankerousgoblin I mean yeah but Tuffie still isn’t wrong, balancing something means you need to be objective, not biased (something this community can’t do).
The Sydney Sleeper is also one of the best looking Sniper primaries imo. Though admittedly, it'd be quickly beaten by the Bazaar Bargain if it had a similar scope.
I personally think that the hitman heatmaker and machina look cooler. But the sidney sleeper dose look cooler compared to the bezar baragin and classic.
15:17 I think the reason for this is because teammate on teammate interactions have ZERO lag compensation, that's why the Diciplinary Action, another weapon that relies on hitting teammates, can also be very inconsistent.
Aye, I named my Polycount Pack (yes, I've been playing TF2 for THAT long) Sleeper "Sydney Screw You", then when I got a Strange Sleeper I switched to that and named it the "Canberra Chest Counter". It's relaxing counter-sniping Snipers on 2fort with the Sleeper and seeing them ragdoll or run around like a headless chicken with piss on them, as it means they're not focused on my teammates.
@@badideagenerator2315I agree with this so much, honestly. Like seriously this thing is a good weapon that feels fun to use and fight against. But every other rifle is so good in comparison this damn thing looks terrible
The Huntsman is. Even though the Huntsman is goofy tree projectile, it's usually spam and bad luck when it does kill you at range. And being a projectile it can't kill you instantly without prefiring, it has travel time. Every other Sniper Rifle has the potential to delete you a moment after crossing into a sniper's sightline.
@@badideagenerator2315the vanilla rifle is just plain broken The bargain is a direct upgrade The heatmaker is sniper's version of the direct hit The machina is your training wheels for playing sniper The classic is just a meme weapon
My grandma had a old saying that was damn near her Catchphrase. "Better pissed off then Pissed on" I wanna a Description tag and put on my Sleeper "Better pissed off then pissed on? Well now your both
I've been waiting for this episode, and I've gotta admit, this was very insightful. The Sydney Sleeper will still be my favourite sniper overall, but sometimes it's nice to hear a truly critical opinion on it. Thank you, Fish!
Completely disagree with Fish at 21:56, I don't know how he could get that wrong. Obviously, the Bazaar Bargain is the "Bazaar Weapon," not the Sydney Sleeper.
When i used this weapon a lot it was because i didnt expect as much from myself in terms of impact which made me calmer and play better. Dont know if anyone else has a weapon that does this for them too, but i find their is a sweet spot where a weapon is just bad enough to calm me, but still no frustratingly terrible feeling
This, i always use out of the meat but not really bad guns in games like csgo where i run stuff lilke thompson, it doesnt tilt me when i lose because im using a silly gun but its not frustratingly bad.
Same reason I often choose to play battle engie on offense. It's deliberately sub-optimal so if I do poorly it's not a huge deal, but it's just good enough to reward smart play.
Sleeper is kind of a 'u-huh, don't advance, back off' gun as well. Because when you get covered in Jarate, you don't really want to advance into enemies. But still that is achieved better by a headshot, which either puts them on low health, making them back off to heal, or kills them outright. I guess it can help Snipers who cannot headshot reliably yet to fulfill that purpose. Such a weird gun, which sucks, because i love the design.
The sleeper is a very supportive weapon, but it just doesn’t let you KILL the bastich, rather than doing your day-to-day of making brain matter hit the wall
Fish, I'm speechless. You just haaaaad to shit on the piss rifle. The one fucking thing you seemingly forgot to mention in the whole video is player skill level. Not everyone is a Pro MGE sniper main with an 85% headshot rate, as a matter of fact most snipers you have ever met in servers miss more than half their shots on average. And due to how sniper mentality pushes for scoring headshots, most don't bother bodyshoting for the most part. That's where the Sydney Sleeper shines: even if you suck at scoring headshots, you're still contributing, dealing heavy damage and scoring kills via bodyshots, which you will hit a lot of shots since you're not forced to aim for the head, but any part of the body, which in turn you'll hit a lot more shots since it's easier. Accuracy is the one stat never talked about with rifles in TF2, because it's not a stat in-game, but a stat of the player. Yes, it can be improved, but some hit walls and can't get past that level. And no, no amount of dude gymbro talk of "YOU CAN DO IT" and "BELIEVE IN YOURSELF" is gonna fix that. Everyone can run, but not everyone can run a marathon. Lesson of the day kids is to appreciate Sydney Sleeper snipers, because they may not be the best, but they are trying their best, which speaks a lot more than tryharding.
I miss when this thing had the Jarate explosion. It was the entire reason I used the Sleeper, and even bought a strange one. Then Meet Your Match removed the piss-bomb effect, killing the entire reason this thing ever existed.
The only thing the Sydney Sleeper desperately needs is to be able to quickscope opposing Snipers; making the weapon always start at 50% charge with a 37% charge rate penalty would allow it to quickscope kill normal Snipers with a mini-crit headshot for at most 135 damage while still taking the same amount of time to fully charge a shot, trading the ability to quickscope medics, two-quickshot soldiers and one-shot overhealed heavies for the ability to extinguish teammates and tag enemies with Jarate on hit, which l'd also extend the max duration to 8 seconds -- albeit without the insta-full duration on headshot you proposed. Also, make the mini-crit headshot kills on the weapon actually count as headshot kills, with the kill tally and score bonus included.
I haven’t started the vid yet but unironically the best use I’ve found for the Sleeper is in Vs. Saxton Hale. One target to shoot at means you don’t have to hard scope, and the nature of the mode means your collective team gets way more benefit from the free minicrits than you would with just headshots. I’ve straight up carried teams with the Sleeper
10:16 "some of them are so good you may as well pick a different class." in that case, you'd be better off finding a new server. you're gonna have a bad time going against a good enemy sniper.
So is stock, the bazaar bargain, the machina, the heatmaker, hell even the huntsman. It's not that it's ineffective it's that it's outclassed by every other option except for the classic (big woop)
@@turquoise6336 It's a support gun. If you're at all familiar with Overwatch, it's kinda like the way you play Zenyatta's Discord orbs - in lower skill/uncoordinated pubs, you just look at whoever your team is most immediately attempting to beat up and shoot them so that they explode from suddenly taking minicrits, and in more coordinated teams with voice you call out who you're gonna tag so that your team can focus them down. It's great in that way for making sure that priority enemies end up dead. disclaimer that I haven't watched the video yet, in case Fish says all this lmao
the sydney-sleeper combo sniper sounds really fun but the weapon just isn’t geared up for it, maybe a huntsman type weapon that applies a set time of jarate would work as a better pick, maybe even giving a switch speed boost also so you can combo stuff together more effectively
I think the problem is that Sydney Sleeper is not necessarily that bad of a weapon by itself, but rather the fact that most other Sniper weapons are fairly broken. You have a class that has 1 true counter other than itself (Spy) that can sit comfortably behind the frontline, can instantly scope, deal consistently high damage regardless of range, has a large pool of ammo, in a game where most of the combat takes place at close to medium range. The game stops being fun when the enemy team (usually defend) has a full semi-competent Sniper nest and your team get choked point until the time runs out because no one can reach them
Even worse, Spy isn't even Sniper's TRUE counter. Sure, on less experienced Snipers, a Spy can get them every once in a while, but once the Sniper gains any amount of gamesense, they can hear the decloak and either 1. Instantly 150 quickscope the Spy, 2. Jarate/Bushwacka the Spy, 3. Random Crit the Spy, or 4. Put on the Razorback and force the Spy to reveal himself to the enemy team and get shredded by a sentry. Unless you have the wrecking ball that is an Ubercharge, good luck pushing into a Sniper/Sentry nest. Zesty Jesus's Sniper Tier List has a much more fleshed out preamble on why Sniper is utterly broken.
@@cowserthekhelinace from my experience, even ubercharge won't help. The uber duos usually mainly focus on the Sentry nest or vital choke point where the enemy medic heals the injured team mates near the frontline then quickly retreat once the uber runs out. Enemy snipers usually wait out and then quick scope the retreating unubered enemies. Ubered players don't usually go after snipers unless they are within reaching distance because they are literally too far away, can outrun them, and risk being wrecked by the enemy team once the uber runs out because they are way too far away from the frontline
@@quakethedoombringer YES EXACTLY THANK YOU EVEN UBERCHARGE DOESN'T COMPLETELY NEGATE A SNIPER SNIPER STRAIGHT UP NEEDS A NERF. My suggestions: 1. Minimum damage nerf to 37 (111 quickscope), requiring more hardscoping to instakill even a light class, enforcing the tunnel vision downside more. Also encourages SMG use for close range, and finishing off quickscopes. 2. 2 second hard reload, granting a higher punishment for missing your shot. Also slows the Sniper down so he doesn't keep blasting people's heads off one after another. You have to choose your targets. 3. Machina Tracers on ALL rifles. This lets people see where a Sniper is easier, so they can more easily avoid them or find them. Machina gets an extra .5 second reload to offset the "buff" (but maybe remove the "on full charge" part on the damage) 4. Reduce the ammo count to 10. Forces the Sniper to move for ammo packs more, reducing his active time, allowing for more pushes. I also have some nerfs/changes for specific weapons, but I don't have time to type them.
@@cowserthekhelinace Sniper is not broken. It is just that every other class is very very weak. Spy cannot stab people whilst invincible, making him a joke of an invisible character. Heavy does not shoot enough bullets per second. He just does not, compared to real miniguns. Soldier’s rocket launcher should always crit to deal even remotely close damage as it should, etc etc etc
I've actually gotten a ton of use of this playing class wars randomizer. Maybe its just upward but there are some great ways to bodyshot without ever being seen.
my piss gun is strange and named “ez” because pissing off others is funny also extinguishing teammates is inconsistent because of lag, aim ahead of the burning teammate to extinguish them
That's actually such a good way to balance sniper. Not one class was designed around a player having thousands of hours worth of playtime on it, and this heavily lowers the skill ceiling for most snipers, encouraging a slower and more passive playstyle
@@Soapromancer Sniper would still be the most effective class at long range. They would just be slightly less powerful. TF2 is balanced around much shorter ranged engagements than most FPS games. But sniper has the range of snipers from FPS games balanced around longer ranges for even their shortest range classes. The extreme power at range is a huge problem for map designers. Open maps are fun for high mobility classes and just in general. But you can't make super open maps because you have to balance against sniper. A little damage fall off would go a long way to fixing this issue. Again I think it would only need to be a very mild amount of fall off only applying at quite long ranges.
I kind of miss the ability of applying Jarate in a radius upon headshot/fully charged bodyshot with this weapon, because while it still makes the Sydney Sleeper weaker than other rifles, the ability to apply Jarate to multiple enemy players far outside of the Jarate's throwing range is good compensation, but for whatever reason, they removed that back in 2018. However, the proposition of applying maximum Jarate duration on headshot regardless of charge level is a good incentive.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention that this weapon is banned in competitive (aside from the future of BWA video from 3 years ago), and didn’t try to rebalance it to no longer be banned like the steak, parachute, and gass passer. But honestly, the only way to make it unbanned is to rework minicrits to have falloff, because removing Jarate from this gun removes the thing people use it for in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the problem with the weapon in competitive is that bodyshots are easier to get because of the charge rate and less enemy bodies to shield Medics in 6s. Plenty of the game's mechanics are not compatible with some competitive formats, and that's okay.
You use the Sydney Sleeper because it's the "funni PP gun." I use the Sydney Sleeper to wage phycological warfare upon my enemies. We are not the same.
You know what's funny? The Sydney Sleeper and the Classic both feel like they should have been stock weapons. The Sleeper is purely a support weapon and fills that role well... but is sadly outclassed by the Jarate when enemies are close. However, the weapon has to be fully charged to instantly drop Medics and that can still feel like a while even with the reduced charge time. The Classic needing to fully charge to crit feels like it's more fair to who ever gets on the receiving end of it because of how long you have to charge for. The point trying to be made: Snipers being able to instantly get a 150 crit upon scoping in is one of the things that makes a decent Sniper so oppressive to play against. The fact that the Sniper can get that damage at any range means even sneaking up to them is bit of a gamble if they catch you. Those other weapons having to fully charge to do high damage makes them seem more fair to play against for other players.
@@lefishe5845 At one point, had this thought: What if all of the Sniper's rifles weren't hitscan but instead just fired a fast moving projectile? Obviously, it'd have to be immune to airblast and the Short Circuit is fine because fast projectiles have a habit of getting through its secondary fire without getting deleted. Even if that was fixed, it'd still be fine. Also, not sure how fast. Maybe a little faster than the Huntsman's arrows? Either way, at that point it'd be possible to give a visual effect to the rounds that players can see and an audio effect when it passes by them. Both would give some form of feedback on whether what ever they did to try to throw off the Sniper's aim actually did something.
@@june9914 The important bit is the visual and audio effect. Being able to see the shot and hear it passing by would give the player the feedback on whether what ever they tried doing to avoid getting dropped did indeed help. As is, with Snipers, it's an honest prayer on whether they screw up their shot because of what ever you did or another player did. You also can't simply 'respect the sightline' because a Sniper can always reposition or even avoid common sightlines just for the surprise factor. No matter what, the Sniper IS a problem that needs addressing. As time continues on, relying on crap Snipers missing their shots will become less and less reliable as they get better.
@@Techhunter_Talon oh yeah I agree sniper is a problem and needs better feedback but with other high reward projectile weapons like the huntsman scorch shot etc being a projectile means you can just peek when absolutely necessary and hope it hits with that collision hull. Giving sniper some kind of tracer round and a much more visible dot does fix a lot of feedback issues Personally I’m mostly ok with sniping in unconventional spots because you basically go way out of your comfourt zone and basically dead against anyone who catches you out and you leave your team with an unwatched point (unless there are multiple snipers then that’s an issue) and I think constant repositioning is also a good thing since that’s a method two fource the sniper intwo downtime (unless the repositioning just lets the sniper watch the same point at a different angle)
I can't entirely agree with the point about sniper duels. The quick charge of the sleeper means that if you know where an enemy sniper generally is, you can often inch around a corner and land a body shot before they can land a headshot on you. It might not seem like that on paper, but I've done it plenty of times.
My opinion on the Sleeper comes down to a core playstyle shift, starting with a full reassessment of where you're putting your crosshair, yourself, and the battle you're trying to contribute to. It's solidly a support tool, unfortunately in the position of a primary and apparently means to be paired with jar and melee, but also works successfully with smgs. So positioning is limited from flanks and controlling vantages, mainly by sniper duels which you're now ill prepared for, putting you in the meat of the fight or at least hugging close to the team. Your targets won't likely be dying from you, so where you aim is shifted from tricky picks to where your team mates are already firing, namely soldier and demo but also scout. It's effectively filling that weird middle ground between huntsman and the other rifles, where you keep mobile with last second decisions but also have the slight advantage of using a hitscan. The weaknesses are exacerbated by the utility of other rifles being able to simply put down a target rather than help a stray rocket do it's job better, but its more viable at closer, harder-to-hit ranges because you're no longer reliant on just headshots. Now you rely on the team and your own game sense to keep danger at bay. Arguably you do normally anyway but that's negligible with most sniper players. Plus, it's much easier to use the paired jarate for basically anything at this mid range since you're already close enough and don't need to waste time running up on the team first.
As a syndey dbiper myself its not as much about physicall damage as it is about psychological damage when someone gets shot and sees that yellow haze they either tend ti freak out or retreat causing them to be easier targets for your teammates
This has basically been the only sniper I use when I feel like being helpful to the team, so basically always. Also helpful since I suck at getting headshots.
I feel like, if they just buffed the piss duration on this thing, it would actually be a pretty good support tool on a class not generally known for its support capabilities. As it stands now though, it's just too brief for me to consider it a viable support option.
even making it so the headshots deal full duration(quickscopes and full charge included) would make the Sydney Sleeper better. Also the extinguish should be a unscoped and scoped ability. I remember the Sleeper having aOE jarate blasts, would getting that back be a good thing, as in balanced? maybe aoe on headshots?
A while back, there were leaks for unused tf2 weapons that had originally been planned, one of them being a sniper rifle, with a blocky camera-like scope on it, relatively white in coloring, suggesting perhaps a supportive niche over "yet another OP sniper rifle". Having gotten into the original OG overwatch launch (RIP and good riddence) i loved Ana as a concept to play supportive sniper. I had hopes we'd maybe get another support sniper weapon for the sniper class that would work just like that (nevermind that the leaked sniper weapon supposedly was for medic?) I still very love the sydney sleeper, it is my favorite sniper rifle when i want to play more supportive.
Hey Fish thanks for uploading another bad weapon academy, your video legitimately brings me Joy even thou I don't play TF2, Maybe because I like the weapons and characters aesthetic. But regardless Keep it up man, Much love brother, Matsala.
If I was redesigning this thing, I'd go with GREATLY reduced damage balanced out by "explosive" headshots that spreads Jarate to nearby enemies. Now it's a full-blown support weapon! Or alternatively... let the rifle apply 1.5 seconds of Garate from un-scoped shots. Enough time to combo with the bushwaka, allowing Sniper to operate as a bizarre piss-based melee sublass.
You fail to understand that some sniper players are just pure hard scopers who very rarely get headshots. They rely on the full charge for meaningful bodyshots. They do still go for headshots, it just rarely connects or they realize there's no way they can get the one they're attempting and simply give up and go for the body. The Sydney Sleeper is definitely the best sniper for these types of players as the full charge happens much faster for that consistent 150 body shots. Because these players are hardscopers and lack quick scope skills, that +25% charge also benefits with hardscope headshots. They take a little longer to line up their shots, yet are rewarded with more than 150 damage a quick scoper would deal. That +25% charge speed max charge headshot IS some people's quickscope. Stock's charge is too long, but quick scoping is also too short for them. Sydney feels just right for them to line up their shot and still do good damage.
It was a long time coming, Fish, but I'm glad you took your time with this one. I'd say the change you proposed (and currently implemented on your server) is a very reasonable one. I do have a side question, though. At one point, the Sydney Sleeper was able to do something similar to explosive headshots and coat everyone nearby in Jarate, not just the target. I'm guessing the reason it was removed was because it was too strong of a buff, effectively rendering Jarate itself obsolete - do you agree, or is there more to it than that? And have you considered implementing the same thing on your server? P.S.: Bison next, maybe?
Hey, I wonder if anyone has or would like to make an animated SFM series out of Bad Weapon Academy. Also, I wouldn't mind that after Jarate gets nerfed, it'll combo better with The Sydney Sleeper better than with the Bushwacker, and that the Sydney Sleeper will have more of a focus on general chip-like damage where at max headshot charge he can do 150 damage to both his target and to everyone else in the maximum splash radius. If it is a Max Charge Bodyshot the target will still take 150 damage, but every one else will take 100 damage. At zero charge it can only do 25 damage to one opponent with a slight shrapnel maybe hitting opponents above where the target was hit. Quick Scope Headshots now do 65 headshot damage to the target along with the splash damage doing 30 damage and the bodyshots do 50 damage to the target with the Splash damage doing 25 damage. So basically, only Max Charge headshots will get you the best results with the best jarate spread, and everything else you should only go for to charge up your bottles to chuck at the opponent. It also has 35 bullets in its clip, compared to every other nerfed Sniper rifle's 12 bullets with the exception of the Hitman's Heatmaker and the Classic, the Heatmaker being 25 bullets and the classic being Classic TF2's bullet amount along with their classic mechanics. And now it can increase the time that Jarate lasts every single shot and the duration of every single Jarate stage is increased by 0.5 seconds except for Max charge, which instead doubles the 5 seconds to 10 seconds. It also no longer has a scope. You cannot scope with this weapon anymore, you will just have to eye every single opponent out. It now cannot mini-crit on headshots, only full crit if the enemy is already covered in Jarate, which if an opponent dies because of this then they will do 175 splash damage to everyone nearby, with the splash radius' damage range depending on how long the weapon was charged and how far away the target was from the Sniper. At max range and charge, if the opponent isn't incredibly far away from their team they become a current Scorch Shot explosion level danger being able to deal 190 damage to everyone near them. If they're incredibly close and the Sniper is just quick scoping them, then unless they're within Melee range of the Sniper they'll only get 25 damage. Also, you can now only douse teammates from fire if they're within the blast radius. So, spray one opponent, then get the opponent as close to you or as far away from you, max headshot them, and then you will have doused nearly your entire team from anything a Pyro can do.
I think it's good that the Sydney Sleeper exists, because I think it's healthy to have a weapon that makes it easier to approach a difficult class, without being good enough to also dominate among good players. Its stats are a solid fit for a beginner sniper who isn't all that competent in their aim; the jarate is a slightly increased reward for your bodyshots, the charge rate makes it easier to land bodyshots on targets like scouts and opposing snipers. The headshot minicrits and weird jarate cooldown thing are small upsides that help encourage you to still go for a headshot if you think you can hit it. It still does sniper things; you're doing a lot of burst damage, and the charged shots are picking off light classes (and a kill is a kill, even if it renders the jarate a bit redundant). I think it fits into a category of "maybe I wouldn't use this much, but I'm still glad it exists." It's for the best that it's outclassed at a higher skill level, but if I have a teammate who isn't that good at sniper I'd rather have them using this and providing some value versus accomplishing nothing with a Bazaar Bargain.
Honestly i was worried how you were going to do this video. I know you love headshoting and despise bodyshots a lot in streams so i was worried you were going to be like, this gun sucks! However i was wrong, you showed you kept your bias at bay. I honestly thought you were going to be like, this weapon does this OR you can just headshot them with the regular sniper file and just kill them. This weapon also does this, OR you can just headshot them with the regular sniper rifle and just kill them. I'm honestly happy to see you broke down this weapon logically, went through its ups and down, and you even showed moments of genuinely having fun with it in the sniper combo part which says hey this weapon is bad but you can still have fun. Overall this video was well done, high quality and I found it very enjoyable to watch, good job fish.
Why is it that the weapons I regularly use are featured on bad weapon academy? I use the huo long heater, back scatter, short stop, and the sleeper regularly.
People use it to pocket people but that’s not how it’s supposed to be used imo, it’s meant to keep all your teammates alive and heal them all in a very short amount of time
True,while you can still pocket with its extra healing its not its mechanic. the most underrated thing about the quickfix is the ubercharge,while your no longer invisble,provides MASSIVE heal rate along with no knockback during charge if you use it with soldier banners,primarly the Battalion's Backup you can use quickfix to its fullest potential.
@@mrgodzillaraptors8632 I use it that way and it's my absolute favourite as a pub medic, often I'll find it makes more of a difference on defence since keeping the team alive often means more than building uber for counter ubers. The quick bursts of mega healing is also super useful since by juggling targets you can save a whole group from something that should have killed them rather than just one target with a regular uber, since even if you do juggle a regular uber your teammates can still get easily picked off, yet if they're quickly burst back up to full health rather than just being invulnerable for a couple seconds and still being low health. Basically a quick fix medic can counter ubers by allowing his team to keep the pressure on and making it much harder for an enemy medic to build a full uber in the first place.
I personally like the sydney sleeper. My favorite and most effective tactic with it, is to specifically aim at enemies in an area where they're just about to enter line of fire and then tag them with a fully-charged shot, leaving them out in the open with reduced health, and jarated, making them an instant priority target. The satisfaction I feel, seeing a full health soldier or demo FLY right into the battlefield full of confidence, suddenly become half-health and jarated, and instantly turn tail and run away, never gets old. It's also really funny baiting heavies with it.. Whenever I tag a full health or overhealed heavy with a fully-charged shot right as he enters the front lines, he will completely ignore it, and think he's fine, only for my team to immediately focus down the jarate'd heavy and show him the power of mini-crits. If you have a competent team, this gun is basically a scout-kill dispenser. A scout will realize what you're doing, and start just camping near the edge of the enemy front lines, wait for you to tag someone, and then chase them down as they run back into base for an easy kill. This weapon is definitely meant to get you almost as many assists as kills. .. I also love how hard you try to sell your point that vs other snipers the gun fails out.. You make it sound like hoping the sniper misses or is distracted is some shameful tactic only used if you've got nothing left to lose, and you make the suggestion of flanking or attacking from a different spot sound like some far-left-field last ditch tactic. Bro, those are NORMAL sniper tactics, that ALL snipers use.. I don't know who hurt you or your ego, but I've never once felt ashamed or frustrated at having to use "moving to a different spot" as a tactic to kill another sniper. You do make some good points, I'll admit.. If you have a shitty inattentive team, and don't have a great sight-line, this weapon suffers.. But honestly, I still like using it because of the challenge. I utterly detest quick-scoping, and always try to put some kind of dampener or challenge to my own playstyles to keep me both humble, and constantly seeking to increase my skill. Basically like the gaming equivalent to weight training. And in that regard, the sydney sleeper is like an alternate-universe bazaar bargain.. Because it forces you to improve by encouraging you to play very specifically.. With bazaar bargain, it encourages hard-scoping and headshots.. With sydney sleeper, it encourages keeping an eye on your environment, and finding the best location and angle to attack enemies from that will support your team if your shots don't kill, which, hey, coincidentally makes you a better sniper.. Any sniper can rack up kills and decimate an enemy team till they top-score, but that doesn't win battles.. But a sniper that works 'with' their team, takes down priority targets, and attacks the SAME targets their team is focusing to allow their team to progress more easily further, is a sniper that's actually being useful.
Before I watch the video. I don't think the Sydney Sleeper is that bad of a weapon. The change from a damage dealer to a support-based primary is how the weapon was balanced, and it does the job extremely well and is still capable of killing 8/9 classes (excluding overheal) with a full charged headshot as we saw in the first clip with that Demoman. I think the reason why people see it as a bad weapon is the fact it can't kill as easily, or in my opinion, Sniper mains can't get a frag montage with it. But the +25% faster charge rate, and the jarate on hit, plus the explosive headshot to apply jarate to everyone nearby, makes it a pretty nasty threat that it's even banned in comp for those reasons. I don't think the weapon is bad, are there better options? Yes of course, but the same can be said for a lot of weapons. Is the Shahansha good? Not really, stock is just better most of the time and if you're running jarate or carbine then Bushwacka is the best choice. Does that mean it's a bad melee? No, it does its job as advertised and nothing more
@@kerzid not every person playing sniper can consistently get headshots nor is a sniper irl only meant to hit his targets in the head. This whole mentality that a sniper rifle should be mainly used for headshots is not correct nor should be forced upon players in videogames. Its a gun meant to hit people from far away, regardless of how you use it and how you get kills with it.
The problem is it doesn't do that, it only rewards hitting targets with extra for follow up damage, damage that would not be needed if you just used any other weapon in the class
You can tell how sniper is a bs class by the fact that the Sidney Sleeper and The Classic, which were basically designed to be a straight upgrade from stock, the first actually giving a reason to bodyshot and the second removing sniper's main weakness which is tunnel vision, are considered BAD weapons simply because sweaty basement dweller sniper mains with 5k hours put in the game can't kill 5 out of 9 classes with a quickscope 0.5 seconds after seeing them.
I see this weapon as a support weapon that says "I don't trust my aim so I'm picking a gun that will help my team if I can't hit my headshots. And I'm on coms"
![[TF2] The Hitman's Heatmaker Is A Weapon That Exists](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KZN-7JPwM6U/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Hitman's Heatmaker Is A Weapon That Exists](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] The Best Sniper Rifle](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hLi0V-onuhA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Bad Weapon Academy: B.A.S.E. Jumper](/img/n.gif)
I think it’s funny how many weapons there are that provide a more balanced version of Jarate, while Jarate itself has never been nerfed once.
Prob cuz its so easy for sniper to steal anything take a piss in it and throw that than it is to kill a medic steal his syringes and somehow draw piss from his body
Sydney sleeper is a balanced mini crit weapon, too bad it’s overshadowed by jarate.
P.S The ambassador is still better
The saving grace for jarate is everyone uses it selfishly. And when used that way its actually a balanced weapon that is both fun to use and fun to play against. Its only when used as a team weapon that is so OP. I really wish they would nerf it to allow airblast to remove the effect. And while they are at it airblast should remove mad milk.
@@EdibleREAL just like how Syringe Guns are decently balanced, but the Crossbow exists.
@@peterisawesomeplease Nah maybe make it so the manmelter can remove those? The manmelter's whole thing is supporting teammates, but afterburn can already be removed by a flamethrower without giving up a flare or shotgun. Make it so the manmelter can remove those.
This weapon is a psychological weapon, not just because you're being injected with p1$$! But because the second someone gets hit by it and sees the yellow filter, they tend to panic and retreat
literally the heavy class
he sucks ass but hes scary
@@pogobod2128 no and yes
Turns sniper into a support
A longer fan scout
"Psychological damage doesn't show up on the leaderboard, man!"
But why do that... when you can kill them outright?
"with jarate, you don't need to put yourself in a risky position"
_solo charges the cart_
piss
😂
The perfect weapon to piss off and piss on your enemies
Oh let me guess you filled it with piss. 👋👋
" i can't talk right now * put Sun glasses* im making PISS*link park Begin playing*
@@samfire3067 I thought it was Three Days Grace that played in the original?
@@AWholeLegionary i don't remember what music was in The original.
Piss on, piss off.
The Sydney Sleeper's best stat is a hidden one. "Tilts the enemy sniper on kill"
Yup, full-charge bodyshot enemy sniper with the Sleeper, and either they crumple in to a ragdoll, or are left running around like a headless chicken with piss on them at low health and miss their shot because you hit first.
And i think, It can stinguish fire from alies ( maybe IS only with Full charge) but i maybe be missRemembering.
I love mocking other Snipers level of skill by hardscoping them
@@samfire3067they mention that in the video. That aspect of the weapon is bugged to not always happen, though.
The Classic dude.
Say what you want about Sydney Sleeper, but it's really good at what it is meant to do: making people pissed.
i know what you did there "pissed" 🗿
It's actually really good at what it does: charge up 150 bodyshots on medics quicker if your team can't hit heads
Jarate: did you forget about me?
"Nice bodyshot asshole" the weapon.
The true pissed gun
The Sydney Sleeper is a sane man in a mad world. Applying 5 seconds of Jarate at range is useful... but the actual Jarate weapon applies it for 10 seconds in a massive AoE with good range to boot. Being unable to quickscope is more "fair" but when every other sniper can quickscope to one-shot most classes who cares about "fairness?" The Sydney Sleeper is that one anime protagonist who's holding back for "chivalry" or whatever, only you aren't so vastly overpowered to make your refusal to fight at full strength a noble act.
Quickscoping isn’t overpowered against people with half decent movement
HeDronHeDronHedron
It still is
@@GoldenRedder it really isnt if you know how to fucking dodge and dont just walk in a straight line towards the sniper
@@shitanotosauruswhat if the snipers just good though. Like if they’re good enough there’s not much you can really do
@@thatgoldenguy3272 unless the map has no flank routes i doubt theres nothing you can do. but if you mean hes a god lever sniper and can quickscope everybody, no matter how good their movement... yeah theres not much you can do about it. but that goes for a lot of classes besides heavy and spy.
10:00 "There are some more stationary targets that even the dopiest of snipers can headshot"
You overestimate me
I didn't even know you could shoot allies directly to extinguish them, it's the only rifle (huntsman excluded) I use because headshots are hard. Also it goes "pew"
@@pikazooka It wasn’t a thing back then. A lot of people hd been proposing this idea for years and TF2 decided to add it into the game at some point.
@damsen978 what if you miss a brass beast heavy?
I feel like you should have mentioned that the Sydney Sleeper used to have explosive headshots in regular gamemodes, but instead of damage, it spread jarate. So you basically had a rapid fire jar of jarate, and valve changed it to mini crit headshots because they thought it was too overpowered. Personally I wanna see it return, it fixes a lot of problems while making the 5 second effect somewhat understandable, because you're just pumping these shots out.
I came close to mentioning it a couple of times in my script, but decided against it since the video ended up being long enough as it stands. Personally, I'm not sure if the mechanic is exactly overpowered, but I would call it frustrating if you end up being punished for your teammate being headshot, especially if you're being wary of the Sniper and hiding behind cover. If anything, I'd like to see it return as an MvM upgrade similar to Mad Milk Syringes.
I always thought the explosive jarate headshots was a really interesting idea and was sad to see it being replaced by some rather mediocre stats. Trading single target elimination for long range crowd control seemed like a good way to balance a support oriented weapon. I never got to try it out in game however, so I don't know if it was overpowered. What was everybody's experience with the weapon when it used to have explosive jarate headshots?
@@MajorKlods It was fun. Upset they removed it.
Since you couldn't just instantly kill most targets it allowed you to actually fullfil a support role.
Never got hit by it though. Never clumped up around teammates enough for that. That just makes you a target for the actual explosive classes.
Being able to insta-kill is still better though.
@@ninjashot37 Yeah but I understand why it might be frudtrated, since not only did it punsih players dtanding in a sniper sightline, it punished teammates who were standing next to them even if thry were hiding behidn cover. Maybe make it so the people around them have 5 second jarate while the headshot person gets 10 second jarate?
@@fishstickonastick-gaming I mean its the thing that made the Rifle stand out and be actually Interesting, rather then just a straight downgrade to in the Stock rifle.
Their are ways to balance it. 1. Fully Charged headshot to get the Explosion. 2. Splashed players get 5 seconds while the shot player gets the full 10 seconds just like the Jars.
I remember when it used to create a jarate explosion on headshot, but that got removed because they thought it was overpowered for some reason. So now it just feels kind of awkward to use without that stat.
It got removed? Damn i thought it still worked to this day
I'll be honest, that stat fit the weapon better than the mini-crit headshot too.
I used to love that stat, but sadly, yeah... it was kinda absurd.
Remember the Jarate video where he talked about Jarate invalidating an entire push through the throw of a single item. Jarate splash headshots were that, but at a much greater range and without a metered cooldown.
*PISS explosion*
@@joedingo7022 probably for the best, think fish’s balance works WAY better.
You ever die because a demo’s pill hits your teammate and you die from the splash damage? This sounds like an even worse version of that.
I'm surprised that Fish didn't mention the fact that having Jarate with the slowing upgrade in MVM makes Sydney sleeper slow giants as well. Helps with robot scouts
It also still gets explosive headshots, which makes it actually a somewhat competent challenger for the heat maker against giants since you can stay far away and don’t hav to get close to throw jarate.
I love how the Sniper Rifle is basically a Lighting Rod on Giants, everyone around it dies as you just rain death on them.
@@rylangraham9748 Don't explosive headshots also get a slow effect on robots tho?
You forgot to talk about the hidden stat that every Strange Killstreak version of this weapon is automatically renamed to some kind of piss-related joke.
*PISS of The toilet*
I renamed my strange s.s to Urine Therapy
@@jennbob5521 I rest my case.
@@jennbob5521 mine is golden gun
Every Sydney sleeper sniper I see has it named as "piss rifle"
I’m so glad that the rebalance servers exist, because now Fish’s rebalance concepts can actually be tested in-game.
Not a good look for him when he literally admits being biased at the start of the video. Balance discussion/attempts should be objective.
@@HowToMolly Honestly its not too big a deal cuz Fish isn't the one rebalancing the server. He's just the owner mostly. Its the head dev Shaker whose doing all the actual rebalance work and testing out Fish's rebalance ideas.
@@cantankerousgoblin I mean yeah but Tuffie still isn’t wrong, balancing something means you need to be objective, not biased (something this community can’t do).
Two people here didn't watch the video
Great blue could give some support too
The Sydney Sleeper is also one of the best looking Sniper primaries imo. Though admittedly, it'd be quickly beaten by the Bazaar Bargain if it had a similar scope.
I think it looks the best and has satisfying sounds. Super satisfying to use, but I couldn't bring myself to use it much.
I personally think that the hitman heatmaker and machina look cooler. But the sidney sleeper dose look cooler compared to the bezar baragin and classic.
much quieter as well, most people won't notice you killed with it unless they see the piss victim
This is the true "support" Sniper weapon, and not "Death incarnate" that every other rifle is- well I guess The Classic is just a classic, after all.
Classic kinda sux but its the most fun imo
Classic fucking blows peoples heads off. That shit is death’s mother if you can hit all your headshots and see what happens to the enemy
@@theucheao classic actually gibs people, heatmaker decaps
@@coffee0093 Even better
Classic reigns supreme in the satisfactory contest
The only sniper i really use. I just find it more interesting than other normal snipers (plus, strange specialized Sydney sleeper)
*rifle *rifles
@@doods_0 you're being pedantic, stop
@@doods_0 your getting uppity with grammar over that?
@@doods_0 *rififies
@@Dietbutcher rickity rickity roo*
15:17 I think the reason for this is because teammate on teammate interactions have ZERO lag compensation, that's why the Diciplinary Action, another weapon that relies on hitting teammates, can also be very inconsistent.
I always found the sleeper to be a great example of a good weapon in a kit filled with great weapons.
kit fill with overpowered weapons*
@@zwitie3455 And is still overpowered itself. Easiest gun to drop meds with
@@shadow50011so is literally every other sniper rifle
Ah. My favorite Sniper primary… Mostly cause I have a Strange one and I’ve always sucked at sniping
Aye, I named my Polycount Pack (yes, I've been playing TF2 for THAT long) Sleeper "Sydney Screw You", then when I got a Strange Sleeper I switched to that and named it the "Canberra Chest Counter".
It's relaxing counter-sniping Snipers on 2fort with the Sleeper and seeing them ragdoll or run around like a headless chicken with piss on them, as it means they're not focused on my teammates.
Sydney Sleeper + Cleaners Carbine + Bushwacka = Hilariously tilting to the enemy medics and heavies
Switch the BW for the Shiv and this is my exact loadout 😂
Hot take: The Sydney Sleeper is Sniper's most balanced primary.
yeah.
the sleeper is perfectly fine, it's just the rest of his primaries are busted.
@@badideagenerator2315not the classic
@@badideagenerator2315I agree with this so much, honestly.
Like seriously this thing is a good weapon that feels fun to use and fight against.
But every other rifle is so good in comparison this damn thing looks terrible
The Huntsman is. Even though the Huntsman is goofy tree projectile, it's usually spam and bad luck when it does kill you at range. And being a projectile it can't kill you instantly without prefiring, it has travel time. Every other Sniper Rifle has the potential to delete you a moment after crossing into a sniper's sightline.
@@badideagenerator2315the vanilla rifle is just plain broken
The bargain is a direct upgrade
The heatmaker is sniper's version of the direct hit
The machina is your training wheels for playing sniper
The classic is just a meme weapon
I like Sydney Sleeper because I can't hit headshots anyway
My grandma had a old saying that was damn near her Catchphrase. "Better pissed off then Pissed on" I wanna a Description tag and put on my Sleeper "Better pissed off then pissed on? Well now your both
1:14
Just wanna praise you for this transition, absolutely gorgeous editing
I've been waiting for this episode, and I've gotta admit, this was very insightful. The Sydney Sleeper will still be my favourite sniper overall, but sometimes it's nice to hear a truly critical opinion on it. Thank you, Fish!
UK
Taking the term “pissing people off” to a whole other level, and it is always a fun time for me
Completely disagree with Fish at 21:56, I don't know how he could get that wrong. Obviously, the Bazaar Bargain is the "Bazaar Weapon," not the Sydney Sleeper.
Tfw you can finally tell people "Fish sent me" again.
When i used this weapon a lot it was because i didnt expect as much from myself in terms of impact which made me calmer and play better. Dont know if anyone else has a weapon that does this for them too, but i find their is a sweet spot where a weapon is just bad enough to calm me, but still no frustratingly terrible feeling
the hit man for mr
This, i always use out of the meat but not really bad guns in games like csgo where i run stuff lilke thompson, it doesnt tilt me when i lose because im using a silly gun but its not frustratingly bad.
Same reason I often choose to play battle engie on offense. It's deliberately sub-optimal so if I do poorly it's not a huge deal, but it's just good enough to reward smart play.
Sleeper is kind of a 'u-huh, don't advance, back off' gun as well. Because when you get covered in Jarate, you don't really want to advance into enemies.
But still that is achieved better by a headshot, which either puts them on low health, making them back off to heal, or kills them outright. I guess it can help Snipers who cannot headshot reliably yet to fulfill that purpose.
Such a weird gun, which sucks, because i love the design.
The sleeper is a very supportive weapon, but it just doesn’t let you KILL the bastich, rather than doing your day-to-day of making brain matter hit the wall
being fully honest, I like using the Sleeper because your enemies dying in a cloud of piss is objectively hilarious, even if functionally useless.
12:33 Funny how you make that analogy, considering Sniper literally has Halloween cosmetics that turn him into a crocodile.
Definitely one of the most contentious weapons on this show, have definitely put many hours into this rifle and I love it.
I see this weapon simply as "faster charge up, but no headshots" and everything else is just a bonus.
I used it back when i couldn't hit head shots.
Named mine "How to extract salt 101" when i was a new player
I like it for the oops all piss loadout.
Fish, I'm speechless. You just haaaaad to shit on the piss rifle. The one fucking thing you seemingly forgot to mention in the whole video is player skill level.
Not everyone is a Pro MGE sniper main with an 85% headshot rate, as a matter of fact most snipers you have ever met in servers miss more than half their shots on average. And due to how sniper mentality pushes for scoring headshots, most don't bother bodyshoting for the most part. That's where the Sydney Sleeper shines: even if you suck at scoring headshots, you're still contributing, dealing heavy damage and scoring kills via bodyshots, which you will hit a lot of shots since you're not forced to aim for the head, but any part of the body, which in turn you'll hit a lot more shots since it's easier.
Accuracy is the one stat never talked about with rifles in TF2, because it's not a stat in-game, but a stat of the player. Yes, it can be improved, but some hit walls and can't get past that level. And no, no amount of dude gymbro talk of "YOU CAN DO IT" and "BELIEVE IN YOURSELF" is gonna fix that. Everyone can run, but not everyone can run a marathon.
Lesson of the day kids is to appreciate Sydney Sleeper snipers, because they may not be the best, but they are trying their best, which speaks a lot more than tryharding.
it’s not that deep just hit your shots lol
He explicitly mentions that it's a decent choice for low skilled snipers with the notable draw back of making it harder to counter enemy snipers.
It still self contracting
i feel like making headshots make a small splash of jarate make it so much better
I miss when this thing had the Jarate explosion. It was the entire reason I used the Sleeper, and even bought a strange one. Then Meet Your Match removed the piss-bomb effect, killing the entire reason this thing ever existed.
And the piss cloud effect is still there making me really confused for a while why it's not covering other people in it
The only thing the Sydney Sleeper desperately needs is to be able to quickscope opposing Snipers; making the weapon always start at 50% charge with a 37% charge rate penalty would allow it to quickscope kill normal Snipers with a mini-crit headshot for at most 135 damage while still taking the same amount of time to fully charge a shot, trading the ability to quickscope medics, two-quickshot soldiers and one-shot overhealed heavies for the ability to extinguish teammates and tag enemies with Jarate on hit, which l'd also extend the max duration to 8 seconds -- albeit without the insta-full duration on headshot you proposed.
Also, make the mini-crit headshot kills on the weapon actually count as headshot kills, with the kill tally and score bonus included.
Ah yes, the primary weapon of my favourite subclass: the Piss Sniper
It’s the only weapon that fucks over dead ringer spy’s as it triggers the ringer then jarate’s them letting you easily track them
I haven’t started the vid yet but unironically the best use I’ve found for the Sleeper is in Vs. Saxton Hale. One target to shoot at means you don’t have to hard scope, and the nature of the mode means your collective team gets way more benefit from the free minicrits than you would with just headshots. I’ve straight up carried teams with the Sleeper
10:16 "some of them are so good you may as well pick a different class."
in that case, you'd be better off finding a new server. you're gonna have a bad time going against a good enemy sniper.
Seeing the Sydney Sleeper in a bad weapon academy is hilarious, this weapon is phenomenal if you can use it right
just like any weapon besides the gas passer
What in your experience is the right way to use it?
You mean like stock?
So is stock, the bazaar bargain, the machina, the heatmaker, hell even the huntsman. It's not that it's ineffective it's that it's outclassed by every other option except for the classic (big woop)
@@turquoise6336 It's a support gun. If you're at all familiar with Overwatch, it's kinda like the way you play Zenyatta's Discord orbs - in lower skill/uncoordinated pubs, you just look at whoever your team is most immediately attempting to beat up and shoot them so that they explode from suddenly taking minicrits, and in more coordinated teams with voice you call out who you're gonna tag so that your team can focus them down. It's great in that way for making sure that priority enemies end up dead.
disclaimer that I haven't watched the video yet, in case Fish says all this lmao
The Sydney sleeper is good in Man vs machine the explosions defuffs all surrounding enemies
the sydney-sleeper combo sniper sounds really fun but the weapon just isn’t geared up for it, maybe a huntsman type weapon that applies a set time of jarate would work as a better pick, maybe even giving a switch speed boost also so you can combo stuff together more effectively
haha funny piss gun
This is not a BWA this is Sydney Sleeper Cannot Headshot The Video :--/
What I got from this is "quicker at killing everyone, except heavy."
NOOO This is my favorite! It's the sniper where you can go for nutshots without sacrificing damage when did they change that!?
They didn't
@@vyor8837 oh i thought i heard they added minicrits to headshots.
@@codyxvasco592 they did that too. Minicrits on headshot and full bodyshot damage, full charge is still 150.
@@vyor8837 Pardon me for not trying to research myself, but does that mean headshot damage and bodyshot damage are equal or no?
@@codyxvasco592 all headshots give is a minicrit.
My strange Sleeper has 31,833 kills so far. It's a fun way to kill snipers being too serious.
I honestly never knew you could extinguish teammates with the sydney sleeper lol, good to know
20:29 that ragdoll was the funniest thing I've seen all day
He looks like Muppet that got thrown off of someone's hand
I think the problem is that Sydney Sleeper is not necessarily that bad of a weapon by itself, but rather the fact that most other Sniper weapons are fairly broken. You have a class that has 1 true counter other than itself (Spy) that can sit comfortably behind the frontline, can instantly scope, deal consistently high damage regardless of range, has a large pool of ammo, in a game where most of the combat takes place at close to medium range. The game stops being fun when the enemy team (usually defend) has a full semi-competent Sniper nest and your team get choked point until the time runs out because no one can reach them
Even worse, Spy isn't even Sniper's TRUE counter. Sure, on less experienced Snipers, a Spy can get them every once in a while, but once the Sniper gains any amount of gamesense, they can hear the decloak and either 1. Instantly 150 quickscope the Spy, 2. Jarate/Bushwacka the Spy, 3. Random Crit the Spy, or 4. Put on the Razorback and force the Spy to reveal himself to the enemy team and get shredded by a sentry.
Unless you have the wrecking ball that is an Ubercharge, good luck pushing into a Sniper/Sentry nest.
Zesty Jesus's Sniper Tier List has a much more fleshed out preamble on why Sniper is utterly broken.
@@cowserthekhelinace from my experience, even ubercharge won't help. The uber duos usually mainly focus on the Sentry nest or vital choke point where the enemy medic heals the injured team mates near the frontline then quickly retreat once the uber runs out. Enemy snipers usually wait out and then quick scope the retreating unubered enemies. Ubered players don't usually go after snipers unless they are within reaching distance because they are literally too far away, can outrun them, and risk being wrecked by the enemy team once the uber runs out because they are way too far away from the frontline
And with The old effect of a PISS explosion on Headshot ( Just like a karatê but long range) being removed for a minicrit for some reason
@@quakethedoombringer YES EXACTLY THANK YOU
EVEN UBERCHARGE DOESN'T COMPLETELY NEGATE A SNIPER
SNIPER STRAIGHT UP NEEDS A NERF.
My suggestions:
1. Minimum damage nerf to 37 (111 quickscope), requiring more hardscoping to instakill even a light class, enforcing the tunnel vision downside more. Also encourages SMG use for close range, and finishing off quickscopes.
2. 2 second hard reload, granting a higher punishment for missing your shot. Also slows the Sniper down so he doesn't keep blasting people's heads off one after another. You have to choose your targets.
3. Machina Tracers on ALL rifles. This lets people see where a Sniper is easier, so they can more easily avoid them or find them. Machina gets an extra .5 second reload to offset the "buff" (but maybe remove the "on full charge" part on the damage)
4. Reduce the ammo count to 10. Forces the Sniper to move for ammo packs more, reducing his active time, allowing for more pushes.
I also have some nerfs/changes for specific weapons, but I don't have time to type them.
@@cowserthekhelinace Sniper is not broken.
It is just that every other class is very very weak.
Spy cannot stab people whilst invincible, making him a joke of an invisible character.
Heavy does not shoot enough bullets per second. He just does not, compared to real miniguns.
Soldier’s rocket launcher should always crit to deal even remotely close damage as it should, etc etc etc
9:52 >Invalidates his entire video.
still more balanced than anything sniper else has in his kit. also makes me feel less like a fun ruining asshole when I play sniper
Cry
@@didjahoon5520 how about you go cry, hm?
I said you not me, to dumb to follow those instructions or what
I personally love the Sydney sleeper I can agree in the hands of most it's a bad weapon but if you know how to use it can be devastating
I've actually gotten a ton of use of this playing class wars randomizer. Maybe its just upward but there are some great ways to bodyshot without ever being seen.
my piss gun is strange and named “ez” because pissing off others is funny
also extinguishing teammates is inconsistent because of lag, aim ahead of the burning teammate to extinguish them
What if Sniper rifles dealt mini-crits on headshots while below half charge and normal crits above half charge?
That's actually such a good way to balance sniper. Not one class was designed around a player having thousands of hours worth of playtime on it, and this heavily lowers the skill ceiling for most snipers, encouraging a slower and more passive playstyle
I think thats a decent idea. But I still would prefer slight damage fall off.
Quickscopers who singlehandedly shut down the entire enemy team: "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!! THAT IS UNFAIR!!!!"
@@Soapromancer Sniper would still be the most effective class at long range. They would just be slightly less powerful. TF2 is balanced around much shorter ranged engagements than most FPS games. But sniper has the range of snipers from FPS games balanced around longer ranges for even their shortest range classes. The extreme power at range is a huge problem for map designers. Open maps are fun for high mobility classes and just in general. But you can't make super open maps because you have to balance against sniper. A little damage fall off would go a long way to fixing this issue. Again I think it would only need to be a very mild amount of fall off only applying at quite long ranges.
@@peterisawesomeplease That would kill the class, lol
I kind of miss the ability of applying Jarate in a radius upon headshot/fully charged bodyshot with this weapon, because while it still makes the Sydney Sleeper weaker than other rifles, the ability to apply Jarate to multiple enemy players far outside of the Jarate's throwing range is good compensation, but for whatever reason, they removed that back in 2018.
However, the proposition of applying maximum Jarate duration on headshot regardless of charge level is a good incentive.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention that this weapon is banned in competitive (aside from the future of BWA video from 3 years ago), and didn’t try to rebalance it to no longer be banned like the steak, parachute, and gass passer. But honestly, the only way to make it unbanned is to rework minicrits to have falloff, because removing Jarate from this gun removes the thing people use it for in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the problem with the weapon in competitive is that bodyshots are easier to get because of the charge rate and less enemy bodies to shield Medics in 6s. Plenty of the game's mechanics are not compatible with some competitive formats, and that's okay.
the sleeper is fine.
it just so happens that all the other rifles are busted
Sniper is a *support* class for a reason
Also I remember the headshot causes a splash that narrators all enemies surrounding the target
It doesn't.
@@bynightfall_4516 It used to, then they removed it.
Assassins are support classes
You use the Sydney Sleeper because it's the "funni PP gun."
I use the Sydney Sleeper to wage phycological warfare upon my enemies.
We are not the same.
You know what's funny? The Sydney Sleeper and the Classic both feel like they should have been stock weapons. The Sleeper is purely a support weapon and fills that role well... but is sadly outclassed by the Jarate when enemies are close. However, the weapon has to be fully charged to instantly drop Medics and that can still feel like a while even with the reduced charge time. The Classic needing to fully charge to crit feels like it's more fair to who ever gets on the receiving end of it because of how long you have to charge for.
The point trying to be made: Snipers being able to instantly get a 150 crit upon scoping in is one of the things that makes a decent Sniper so oppressive to play against. The fact that the Sniper can get that damage at any range means even sneaking up to them is bit of a gamble if they catch you. Those other weapons having to fully charge to do high damage makes them seem more fair to play against for other players.
The biggest issue with sniper is there is zero punishment for a sniper missing for most of the time.
@@lefishe5845 At one point, had this thought: What if all of the Sniper's rifles weren't hitscan but instead just fired a fast moving projectile?
Obviously, it'd have to be immune to airblast and the Short Circuit is fine because fast projectiles have a habit of getting through its secondary fire without getting deleted. Even if that was fixed, it'd still be fine.
Also, not sure how fast. Maybe a little faster than the Huntsman's arrows? Either way, at that point it'd be possible to give a visual effect to the rounds that players can see and an audio effect when it passes by them. Both would give some form of feedback on whether what ever they did to try to throw off the Sniper's aim actually did something.
@@Techhunter_Talonthen snipers would just cornerpeek even more than they already
@@june9914 The important bit is the visual and audio effect. Being able to see the shot and hear it passing by would give the player the feedback on whether what ever they tried doing to avoid getting dropped did indeed help.
As is, with Snipers, it's an honest prayer on whether they screw up their shot because of what ever you did or another player did. You also can't simply 'respect the sightline' because a Sniper can always reposition or even avoid common sightlines just for the surprise factor.
No matter what, the Sniper IS a problem that needs addressing. As time continues on, relying on crap Snipers missing their shots will become less and less reliable as they get better.
@@Techhunter_Talon oh yeah I agree sniper is a problem and needs better feedback but with other high reward projectile weapons like the huntsman scorch shot etc being a projectile means you can just peek when absolutely necessary and hope it hits with that collision hull. Giving sniper some kind of tracer round and a much more visible dot does fix a lot of feedback issues
Personally I’m mostly ok with sniping in unconventional spots because you basically go way out of your comfourt zone and basically dead against anyone who catches you out and you leave your team with an unwatched point (unless there are multiple snipers then that’s an issue) and I think constant repositioning is also a good thing since that’s a method two fource the sniper intwo downtime (unless the repositioning just lets the sniper watch the same point at a different angle)
I can't entirely agree with the point about sniper duels. The quick charge of the sleeper means that if you know where an enemy sniper generally is, you can often inch around a corner and land a body shot before they can land a headshot on you. It might not seem like that on paper, but I've done it plenty of times.
Sniper's Bizarre Primary.
Best*
Urine Tendency
no that would be the bizarre bargain
@@Andri474 jojo fans when they see someone breathing (it's a jojo reference)
@@Andri474 Piss Crusaders
My opinion on the Sleeper comes down to a core playstyle shift,
starting with a full reassessment of where you're putting your crosshair, yourself, and the battle you're trying to contribute to.
It's solidly a support tool, unfortunately in the position of a primary and apparently means to be paired with jar and melee, but also works successfully with smgs.
So positioning is limited from flanks and controlling vantages, mainly by sniper duels which you're now ill prepared for, putting you in the meat of the fight or at least hugging close to the team. Your targets won't likely be dying from you, so where you aim is shifted from tricky picks to where your team mates are already firing, namely soldier and demo but also scout.
It's effectively filling that weird middle ground between huntsman and the other rifles, where you keep mobile with last second decisions but also have the slight advantage of using a hitscan.
The weaknesses are exacerbated by the utility of other rifles being able to simply put down a target rather than help a stray rocket do it's job better, but its more viable at closer, harder-to-hit ranges because you're no longer reliant on just headshots. Now you rely on the team and your own game sense to keep danger at bay. Arguably you do normally anyway but that's negligible with most sniper players.
Plus, it's much easier to use the paired jarate for basically anything at this mid range since you're already close enough and don't need to waste time running up on the team first.
Yes! Support sniper is a really fun subclass once you get the hang of it
As a syndey dbiper myself its not as much about physicall damage as it is about psychological damage when someone gets shot and sees that yellow haze they either tend ti freak out or retreat causing them to be easier targets for your teammates
This has basically been the only sniper I use when I feel like being helpful to the team, so basically always. Also helpful since I suck at getting headshots.
I named mine the "Grog Nozzle", if you know. You know.
I feel like, if they just buffed the piss duration on this thing, it would actually be a pretty good support tool on a class not generally known for its support capabilities. As it stands now though, it's just too brief for me to consider it a viable support option.
even making it so the headshots deal full duration(quickscopes and full charge included) would make the Sydney Sleeper better. Also the extinguish should be a unscoped and scoped ability.
I remember the Sleeper having aOE jarate blasts, would getting that back be a good thing, as in balanced? maybe aoe on headshots?
say what you want about the Sleeper but it finally lets me live out my lifelong dream - pissing on people from 50 yards
HOW DARE YOU PUT SUCH A GOOD WEAPON IN BAD WEAPON ACADEMY ?????
i had a game where someone was using this and called it the ' R. Kelly rifle'.
I thought the headshots of the Sydney sleeper spread jarate in a radius?
It used to. It's not the case anymore.
A while back, there were leaks for unused tf2 weapons that had originally been planned, one of them being a sniper rifle, with a blocky camera-like scope on it, relatively white in coloring, suggesting perhaps a supportive niche over "yet another OP sniper rifle".
Having gotten into the original OG overwatch launch (RIP and good riddence) i loved Ana as a concept to play supportive sniper. I had hopes we'd maybe get another support sniper weapon for the sniper class that would work just like that (nevermind that the leaked sniper weapon supposedly was for medic?)
I still very love the sydney sleeper, it is my favorite sniper rifle when i want to play more supportive.
Hey Fish thanks for uploading another bad weapon academy, your video legitimately brings me Joy even thou I don't play TF2, Maybe because I like the weapons and characters aesthetic. But regardless Keep it up man, Much love brother, Matsala.
Same, but i actually got into TF2 because of watching videos about it.
11:03 The pyro at the right stupidly holding m1 and nothing else while the heavy can't do anything. It cracks me up.
If I was redesigning this thing, I'd go with GREATLY reduced damage balanced out by "explosive" headshots that spreads Jarate to nearby enemies. Now it's a full-blown support weapon!
Or alternatively... let the rifle apply 1.5 seconds of Garate from un-scoped shots. Enough time to combo with the bushwaka, allowing Sniper to operate as a bizarre piss-based melee sublass.
It used to have that first thing
You fail to understand that some sniper players are just pure hard scopers who very rarely get headshots. They rely on the full charge for meaningful bodyshots. They do still go for headshots, it just rarely connects or they realize there's no way they can get the one they're attempting and simply give up and go for the body. The Sydney Sleeper is definitely the best sniper for these types of players as the full charge happens much faster for that consistent 150 body shots. Because these players are hardscopers and lack quick scope skills, that +25% charge also benefits with hardscope headshots. They take a little longer to line up their shots, yet are rewarded with more than 150 damage a quick scoper would deal. That +25% charge speed max charge headshot IS some people's quickscope. Stock's charge is too long, but quick scoping is also too short for them. Sydney feels just right for them to line up their shot and still do good damage.
It was a long time coming, Fish, but I'm glad you took your time with this one. I'd say the change you proposed (and currently implemented on your server) is a very reasonable one.
I do have a side question, though. At one point, the Sydney Sleeper was able to do something similar to explosive headshots and coat everyone nearby in Jarate, not just the target. I'm guessing the reason it was removed was because it was too strong of a buff, effectively rendering Jarate itself obsolete - do you agree, or is there more to it than that? And have you considered implementing the same thing on your server?
P.S.: Bison next, maybe?
The way the Sleeper, Jarate, and Bushwhacka go together and help you act like a crocodile is really funny because they're in the same item set
As someone who *despises* quickscopes, this weapon is super fun to use as an alternative
I quick scope with it an then use the SMG for the minicrits. It's not good just fun
Hey, I wonder if anyone has or would like to make an animated SFM series out of Bad Weapon Academy.
Also, I wouldn't mind that after Jarate gets nerfed, it'll combo better with The Sydney Sleeper better than with the Bushwacker,
and that the Sydney Sleeper will have more of a focus on general chip-like damage where at max headshot charge he can do 150 damage to both his target and to everyone else in the maximum splash radius. If it is a Max Charge Bodyshot the target will still take 150 damage, but every one else will take 100 damage. At zero charge it can only do 25 damage to one opponent with a slight shrapnel maybe hitting opponents above where the target was hit. Quick Scope Headshots now do 65 headshot damage to the target along with the splash damage doing 30 damage and the bodyshots do 50 damage to the target with the Splash damage doing 25 damage.
So basically, only Max Charge headshots will get you the best results with the best jarate spread, and everything else you should only go for to charge up your bottles to chuck at the opponent.
It also has 35 bullets in its clip, compared to every other nerfed Sniper rifle's 12 bullets with the exception of the Hitman's Heatmaker and the Classic, the Heatmaker being 25 bullets and the classic being Classic TF2's bullet amount along with their classic mechanics.
And now it can increase the time that Jarate lasts every single shot and the duration of every single Jarate stage is increased by 0.5 seconds except for Max charge, which instead doubles the 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
It also no longer has a scope. You cannot scope with this weapon anymore, you will just have to eye every single opponent out.
It now cannot mini-crit on headshots, only full crit if the enemy is already covered in Jarate, which if an opponent dies because of this then they will do 175 splash damage to everyone nearby, with the splash radius' damage range depending on how long the weapon was charged and how far away the target was from the Sniper. At max range and charge, if the opponent isn't incredibly far away from their team they become a current Scorch Shot explosion level danger being able to deal 190 damage to everyone near them. If they're incredibly close and the Sniper is just quick scoping them, then unless they're within Melee range of the Sniper they'll only get 25 damage.
Also, you can now only douse teammates from fire if they're within the blast radius. So, spray one opponent, then get the opponent as close to you or as far away from you, max headshot them, and then you will have doused nearly your entire team from anything a Pyro can do.
as someone who doesn't even play TF2 I really enjoy these videos thanks for the fun content
You have to scope in to extinguish teammates. Unscoped shots don’t have jarate
Fish why’d you sleep on this for so long?
I think it's good that the Sydney Sleeper exists, because I think it's healthy to have a weapon that makes it easier to approach a difficult class, without being good enough to also dominate among good players.
Its stats are a solid fit for a beginner sniper who isn't all that competent in their aim; the jarate is a slightly increased reward for your bodyshots, the charge rate makes it easier to land bodyshots on targets like scouts and opposing snipers. The headshot minicrits and weird jarate cooldown thing are small upsides that help encourage you to still go for a headshot if you think you can hit it.
It still does sniper things; you're doing a lot of burst damage, and the charged shots are picking off light classes (and a kill is a kill, even if it renders the jarate a bit redundant).
I think it fits into a category of "maybe I wouldn't use this much, but I'm still glad it exists." It's for the best that it's outclassed at a higher skill level, but if I have a teammate who isn't that good at sniper I'd rather have them using this and providing some value versus accomplishing nothing with a Bazaar Bargain.
Honestly i was worried how you were going to do this video. I know you love headshoting and despise bodyshots a lot in streams so i was worried you were going to be like, this gun sucks! However i was wrong, you showed you kept your bias at bay. I honestly thought you were going to be like, this weapon does this OR you can just headshot them with the regular sniper file and just kill them. This weapon also does this, OR you can just headshot them with the regular sniper rifle and just kill them. I'm honestly happy to see you broke down this weapon logically, went through its ups and down, and you even showed moments of genuinely having fun with it in the sniper combo part which says hey this weapon is bad but you can still have fun.
Overall this video was well done, high quality and I found it very enjoyable to watch, good job fish.
Why is it that the weapons I regularly use are featured on bad weapon academy?
I use the huo long heater, back scatter, short stop, and the sleeper regularly.
I liked its old stat of explosive jarate on enemies if you hit a heatshot on one of them. It was pretty useful in maps with chokepoints.
Unironically used this with the carbine and bushwacka for the ultimate sniperknight
Probably had the most fun with sniper that game
Curious to how you will see the quickfix,people say its bad but i see it as an underrated weapon thats underutilized.
People use it to pocket people but that’s not how it’s supposed to be used imo, it’s meant to keep all your teammates alive and heal them all in a very short amount of time
@@mrgodzillaraptors8632 using it with the overdose made being medic 50% less annoying
True,while you can still pocket with its extra healing its not its mechanic.
the most underrated thing about the quickfix is the ubercharge,while your no longer invisble,provides MASSIVE heal rate along with no knockback during charge
if you use it with soldier banners,primarly the Battalion's Backup you can use quickfix to its fullest potential.
@@mrgodzillaraptors8632 I use it that way and it's my absolute favourite as a pub medic, often I'll find it makes more of a difference on defence since keeping the team alive often means more than building uber for counter ubers. The quick bursts of mega healing is also super useful since by juggling targets you can save a whole group from something that should have killed them rather than just one target with a regular uber, since even if you do juggle a regular uber your teammates can still get easily picked off, yet if they're quickly burst back up to full health rather than just being invulnerable for a couple seconds and still being low health. Basically a quick fix medic can counter ubers by allowing his team to keep the pressure on and making it much harder for an enemy medic to build a full uber in the first place.
Nobody calls it bad and it isn't underrated, it's just that people incorrectly use it for pocketing
I personally like the sydney sleeper.
My favorite and most effective tactic with it, is to specifically aim at enemies in an area where they're just about to enter line of fire and then tag them with a fully-charged shot, leaving them out in the open with reduced health, and jarated, making them an instant priority target.
The satisfaction I feel, seeing a full health soldier or demo FLY right into the battlefield full of confidence, suddenly become half-health and jarated, and instantly turn tail and run away, never gets old.
It's also really funny baiting heavies with it.. Whenever I tag a full health or overhealed heavy with a fully-charged shot right as he enters the front lines, he will completely ignore it, and think he's fine, only for my team to immediately focus down the jarate'd heavy and show him the power of mini-crits.
If you have a competent team, this gun is basically a scout-kill dispenser. A scout will realize what you're doing, and start just camping near the edge of the enemy front lines, wait for you to tag someone, and then chase them down as they run back into base for an easy kill. This weapon is definitely meant to get you almost as many assists as kills.
.. I also love how hard you try to sell your point that vs other snipers the gun fails out.. You make it sound like hoping the sniper misses or is distracted is some shameful tactic only used if you've got nothing left to lose, and you make the suggestion of flanking or attacking from a different spot sound like some far-left-field last ditch tactic. Bro, those are NORMAL sniper tactics, that ALL snipers use.. I don't know who hurt you or your ego, but I've never once felt ashamed or frustrated at having to use "moving to a different spot" as a tactic to kill another sniper.
You do make some good points, I'll admit.. If you have a shitty inattentive team, and don't have a great sight-line, this weapon suffers.. But honestly, I still like using it because of the challenge. I utterly detest quick-scoping, and always try to put some kind of dampener or challenge to my own playstyles to keep me both humble, and constantly seeking to increase my skill. Basically like the gaming equivalent to weight training.
And in that regard, the sydney sleeper is like an alternate-universe bazaar bargain.. Because it forces you to improve by encouraging you to play very specifically.. With bazaar bargain, it encourages hard-scoping and headshots.. With sydney sleeper, it encourages keeping an eye on your environment, and finding the best location and angle to attack enemies from that will support your team if your shots don't kill, which, hey, coincidentally makes you a better sniper..
Any sniper can rack up kills and decimate an enemy team till they top-score, but that doesn't win battles.. But a sniper that works 'with' their team, takes down priority targets, and attacks the SAME targets their team is focusing to allow their team to progress more easily further, is a sniper that's actually being useful.
So you mean like killing them? I actually happen to use an item that lets you kill people while sniping.
Before I watch the video. I don't think the Sydney Sleeper is that bad of a weapon. The change from a damage dealer to a support-based primary is how the weapon was balanced, and it does the job extremely well and is still capable of killing 8/9 classes (excluding overheal) with a full charged headshot as we saw in the first clip with that Demoman. I think the reason why people see it as a bad weapon is the fact it can't kill as easily, or in my opinion, Sniper mains can't get a frag montage with it. But the +25% faster charge rate, and the jarate on hit, plus the explosive headshot to apply jarate to everyone nearby, makes it a pretty nasty threat that it's even banned in comp for those reasons. I don't think the weapon is bad, are there better options? Yes of course, but the same can be said for a lot of weapons. Is the Shahansha good? Not really, stock is just better most of the time and if you're running jarate or carbine then Bushwacka is the best choice. Does that mean it's a bad melee? No, it does its job as advertised and nothing more
It doesn't apply it to groups anymore
Well you are definitely right on you not watching the video
@@kerzid not every person playing sniper can consistently get headshots nor is a sniper irl only meant to hit his targets in the head. This whole mentality that a sniper rifle should be mainly used for headshots is not correct nor should be forced upon players in videogames. Its a gun meant to hit people from far away, regardless of how you use it and how you get kills with it.
The problem is it doesn't do that, it only rewards hitting targets with extra for follow up damage, damage that would not be needed if you just used any other weapon in the class
You can tell how sniper is a bs class by the fact that the Sidney Sleeper and The Classic, which were basically designed to be a straight upgrade from stock, the first actually giving a reason to bodyshot and the second removing sniper's main weakness which is tunnel vision, are considered BAD weapons simply because sweaty basement dweller sniper mains with 5k hours put in the game can't kill 5 out of 9 classes with a quickscope 0.5 seconds after seeing them.
I see this weapon as a support weapon that says "I don't trust my aim so I'm picking a gun that will help my team if I can't hit my headshots. And I'm on coms"