I would like the idea of a April Fools episode called "good weapon academy" where you show us a broken weapon or utility and also show us how to use them poorly by mixing them with other weapons/utility's that have no synergy with them
Here. *Insert Scorch Shot spam and then taking out the full phlog mmmph, and then a god like.* Welcome to --bad-- good weapon academy! Where I use and teach you how to be an asshole! But first, HERES OUR SPONSOR *skips 60 seconds maybe probably* Alright, now since thats done lets talk about... Ughhh fuck this thing. Lets talk about its stats. The Scorch Shot stats and hidden stats are: On hit on burning target, you mini crit them, and on top of that it has the same splash as the DETONATOR. Which lets you do a slightly higher jump than normal. But the Detonator has a wayyy better one though. And on direct hit, the flare flies onto the ground, but since it still goes slightly forward, you can make enemies get launched into the air about twice their height! But the hitbox instantly goes above them and then drops... Which means you can just use the degreaser, burn them, switch to the hell shot, shoot them, look up with the degreaser in hand, then shoot them in the air, and that might sound hard, but the scorch shot shoots them into the air on direct hit too. AND SLOWS. So this shit is easy! Boom quick 62 dps, now that might sound like much, but the afterburn doubles, its not much but it's worth mentioning if its mge though. But what if... You spam it? The other flare guns NEVER had this much spamming potential, where you can just continuosly shoot a choke point or aim just outside a wall and you can hit them, which is why the Phlog is painful with this. Just spam it at the payload cart, spam it in dustbowl, and boom, Phlogs already ready to rampage with those FREE CRITS and two second immobile immortality. I'm fishstickonastick, happy aprils fools and don't use this because I didn't mention all the stats you fucking commenter that is pretending to be me. It has a 20% damage penalty and you take 20 damage while flare jumping, and the biggest downside: I'll come to your house and strangle you.
1:20 This con is 100% true. My friend once equipped the Scorch Shot as a joke and Fish jumped through his screen, broke his kneecaps, and then strangled him. It was horrific, but I warned him.
Another change to Jarate that the HiGPS Balance mod does is "On self hit: Piss yourself. Wanker." Where the Sniper who threw it WILL get coated in Jarate if you throw it too close to yourself, and combined with the 20% or so damage vulnerability of the Bushwacka is SPICY.
Honestly I think this is the best way to go with it. It keeps the great support aspects of the weapon and makes the risk of using it to go "haha sniper weak at short range guaranteed crit go brrr?" far more significant. Perhaps tweak the cooldown time or something, but that's the small stuff. I think this should be in the actual game.
Society if everyone in the game got a notification saying "(sniper) pissed themself" Just to clarify, by "in the game" I mean everybody with TF2 currently open, not just people in the same server.
@@notanimposter it makes everyone on the server involuntarily stop any actions, rotate to face the sniper's current position, and play the schadenfreude taunt animation. Then the match resumes as normal.
I am a primary source to this. I distinctly remember a game on Mossrock, I randomly decided to pull out the Jarate as a sniper. I spent, I shit you not, around 10 minutes going back and forth in and out of the spawn doors repeatedly throwing jarate every few seconds. I did absolutely nothing else. The amount of kill assists I earned and the sheer RAGE that the enemy team was spewing in chat is immeasurable. Top of the scoreboard with barely any kills. We held on last for that long and I like to think it's because anyone who walked within visible distance of spawn was coated in piss. The position of the defending team VS the attacking team made that removal of damage falloff, and extra damage, work EXTREMELY effectively. This weapon is banned in standard competitive for a GOOD reason.
Yeah if the sniper really doesn’t care about headshots or really desperate, he can camp in spawn and get his jarate he been storage up and keep throwing it to back off pushes. Same thing with the mad milk.
But yet again, we shouldn't nerf weapons on the basis of whether or not they are banned in competitive. Good example is the bonk nerf in Jungle Inferno. Had absolutely no reason to nerf it whatsoever, especially since you were already trading damage or support for momentary invulnerability which would take a decent amount of time to regenerate again, leaving you already more vulnerable than you previously were. Bonk was banned in Comp. Why? Because people whined that they'd 'have' to chase the Scout around the map as he snuck behind them. Umm... how does that apply to Casual, again? Oh right, he can slip behind the enemy team with slightly more ease than usual and then repeatedly flank or backcap on you. But the thing is, he can already do that. Bonk just makes it slightly easier at the cost of an entire slot which could be filled with more useful items. As a result, Bonk is now much more situational and allows the enemy team to catch up to you like nothing once it ends, making the entire purpose of the weapon in helping you flank completely useless. Maybe it can help you slip past sentries still, but even then if anyone sees you or can be bothered to follow you behind, the slow effect will make you a sitting duck.
@@JeffarryLounder Uh... BONK's fine Lemme ask you this: how often does the fact you get slowed down ACTUALLY get you killed when not getting that would mean you escaped after using BONK? The answer is probably not a lot, because if you were getting slowed, you weren't exactly being inconspicuous (and thus probably had a guy tailing you) Besides, even if you WERE getting chased, guess what: THAT'S FINE. Why? Because if you're getting tailed, that's at least one player who ISN'T fighting the rest of your team. THAT'S why it got nerfed, so that one BONK Scout couldn't charge past an otherwise steadily holding team and back cap instantly Because, well, that's kinda just unfair As of now BONK forces you to play at least a little smart with it rather than just braindead rushing past the entire enemy team with virtually no consequences Plus if comboed with a power class push you can still draw sentry fire and keep it off your team (which is still great and even if you die the sentry's probably going down)
@@red5t653 Actually, you're right. It rarely does come into play because even with pre-nerf bonk I always used it smart anyway. Pre nerf bonk ALSO taught you not to braindead-like rush into a horde of the enemy team because there was often little stopping them, especially enemy Scout's from catching up to you. And yes, I heard that they would abandon their team momentarily, but that only really becomes an issue in competitive gameplay. Missing out on one or two people in the frontlines will weaken the defense slightly, but when you're in a standard casual match with 12 players on each team, this rarely affects anything. We should stop basing competitive TF2's logic on Casual TF2's logic. I don't play TF2 to compete. I play TF2 to toy around with fun, different mechanics which would otherwise be banned in competitive play. Besides, bonk lasted 8 seconds. If the enemy team had a stable defense, Scout would only JUST make it out of the frontline, meaning he would still be easily targeted running away as any enemy worth their salt would give volunteer chase to the Scout. This meant if the enemy could single him out and get the jump on him, he'd barely even make it past the frontline most of the time. As a Scout main, myself, I always used to volunteer myself to chase the Scouts who tried slipping behind with bonk, and it was only rare when they would actually kill me, given I had the jump on them each time. Nonetheless, If he could get out of the frontline with time to spare, it often meant he would not even need the bonk to begin with. It would be annoying for the enemy team, especially when the Scout repetitively did this, but by no means was it broken; and there was also a reason it was rarely used back then anyway. It was never really that effective outside of coordinated pushes and avoiding sentry guns. Back then, I rarely used it myself because everytime I would, I would be behind the enemy line (you know, where NONE of your team to back you up is) and get ganged up on by a large portion of their team who'd narrowly seen me slip by their lines. Since it was Casual gameplay though and not competitive, they had no risk momentarily forfeiting some of their team to take me down. In other words, why base Casual-oriented gameplay on competitive? Overall, sorry for it being so long, but the main use I used to get out of this thing was annoying people. Like drinking the bonk, getting right up in someone's face and taunting them, and then running away without being slowed, and hence with no consequences, so they wouldn't just catch up to me and pwn me instead. That's why I might have such a bias on the issue.
@@JeffarryLounder this is a pointless conversation bc jarate is also overpowered in CASUAL, not just competitive. they dont always contradict each other i agree valve shouldve left bonk alone as its fine in casual and communtiy comp can just ban it, but jarate is ALWAYS op
The funny thing about all this is that a more balanced version of Jarate exists: The Sydney Sleeper. You're sacrificing your direct offensive potential for the ability to place long range debuffs. But it's made redundant by the fact that it exists *ALONGSIDE* the jarate. So why sacrifice your ability to quickscope light classes when you can accomplish the same upsides as the sleeper on your secondary?
I personally use the Sydney Sleeper for its immediately faster charge rate (as opposed to snowballing like the Bazaar Bargain) instead of the Jarate. It can also be used as a backup Jarate in the short downtime when Jarate isn't on somebody.
I mean, I named my Strange Sleeper the "Canberra Chest Counter" for a reason - it's more effective picking off low-health targets with a quick-charge bodyshot and caving in their chests, more than trying to hit jittery head hitboxes. Mind you, I've been playing TF2 long enough that I remember when the Croc-O-Style kit was perfect for counter-sniping (particularly on 2Fort-based maps), where the opposing sniper would try and got for the headshot on you as they do for everybody but when they take the shot you survive long enough to cave in their chest with your own charged shot such if they want to counter you they'd have to have another sniper on their team to be a counter-counter-sniper, thus drawing the heat of 2 of their team away from your team by having them focused on you instead - Of course their counter-counter-sniper was rendered impotent if you had a medic or dispenser backing you up as provided you had at least 2hp or more when their second sniper took the shot; you'd survive any headshot with 1hp when using the full set. But anyway, comparing the Sleeper (modern) against Jarate is kinda difficult as the Jarate works best in short-to-medium range engagements whilst the Sleeper is designed for medium-to-long range engagements (like the other rifles of its day). So people came up with the Critical Piss loadout of Sleeper-Jarate-Bushwhacker in order to cover their bases for pissing on (and thus pissing OFF) their opponents at almost any range, especially since the breaking of the Polycount Kits nerfed the Croc-O-Style for counter-sniping with the Sleeper.
Maybe I'm just an idiot but I like to run Sydney Sleeper + Smg for what I like to call "The Body Shooter" Fully charged shot on an enemy with the Sydney Sleeper, and then pick them off with either my Smg or another shot.
If you think this thing has overpowered potential normally, just wait until Jarate Sniper teams up with Wrangler Engineer. Jarate coated enemies trying to fight a Wrangled Sentry can only be described as suicidal. This combination is outright evil.
Every class should have a throwable jar of bodily fluid at this point. Demo should have a bag full of vomit, medic should have IV full of patient’s blood. Why just restrict it to the sniper and scout? I won’t be satisfied until I can play as a soldier and toss a giant ziplock bag of shit at my enemies
I think Demo would throwable liquid would be a mix of vomit, gunpowder and alcohol. Medic would be blood pack that would be infected Spy: it would a mixed of tear gas and ash from it smokes. edit: it mostly likely smoke or flashbang given spy wants to formal classy about it Engie: it would binding spices or/and maneuver
I think The Bushwhacka gets more of the hate in the combo since it seems to be clearly designed to combo with the Jarate. It's not often that a sniper is going to be pushing along with a Buff Banner Soldier. I like the changes, they seem just enough to reel the Jarate back in without making it feel worthless (like the Gas Passer)
The issue more is the fact that it kind of weakens snipers main weakness of close range combat. If you look at most of snipers non primaries basically all of them outside 2 or MAYBE 3 exist specifically to soften his counters, and the bushwacker jarate combo is arguably the most broad of this. Its not as good against specific counters but its so generalist in its coverage since it basically makes sniper have a fighting chance in so many close range situations that that's kind of its issue on top of basically one shotting 7 out of the 9 classes. Its also easier to punish lower skilled players with easy to use moves like that, just look at the phlog and how much more broken it is in lower skills vs higher skills. Balancing for lower skills is just as important as balancing for higher skills since balancing for lower skill levels means you're balancing for the majority of players. You dont want easy "noob trap" weapons ruining games for weaker players just as you wanna limit better players from being utter pubstompers too much.
The huntsman isn't as bad as the rifles because it forces the Sniper to put himself at greater risk (moving closer to his targets) in order to be effective, due to travel time and lack of scope zoom. It has the same counters as any other projectiles, airblast, short cuircuit, and being able to dodge out of the way of it. Not to mention it has a very noticeable charging animation that makes it very predictable when the sniper is going to fire. That's why the huntsman isn't complained about as much as the rifles...
@@gavros9636 they're saying that huntsman is very strong since it can one shot light classes with an uncharged headshot, and you can jump around corners while charging it like a heavy does when revving up
@@Soapromancer Your second point about corner spamming/guessing is true, but saying the Huntsman can headshot instakill light classes without charge mens nothing when the rifles also do that from a safer distance (excluding the Sydney Sleeper and Classic but let's be real no one uses those if going for max efficiency)
I believe Fish's point was that everyone **used** to complain about the huntsman non-stop and defend the sniper rifle, and now it seems like the inverse is true, which is weird since neither item has been buffed or nerfed in any way for like a decade, but public perception of both of them seems to have changed for some reason.
A bit from the dev commentaries I always think about with Jarate (and also the Mad Milk and Gas Passer): “[Adrian Finol] One of the main changes between Team Fortress Classic and Team Fortress 2 was the removal of thrown grenades. Most classes could carry a standard hand grenade along with a secondary grenade, tied more closely to the class. Team Fortress 2's focus on unique class roles led us to notice that the standard hand grenade was a more powerful combat decider than some of the primary weapons. This made the classes more similar in combat-not a desired effect. In addition, when we looked at some of Team Fortress Classic's map stalemates, they often resulted from large amounts of grenade spam. **Two cases were particularly problematic: That of players throwing grenades repeatedly through doorways, hoping to kill any enemies who might be there, and players on the verge of death throwing all their grenades in rapid succession, hoping to get a kill after they die.** Removing standard hand grenades made the game more fun almost immediately, especially for new players who were often confused as to why they died, when a grenade went off at their feet. **When we examined the class-specific grenades, we found similar problems.** Eliminating them from playtests gave us yet another boost in making the game more fun. Once we'd decided on removal, we analyzed each class to see what capabilities might have been lost as a result of the decision. In some cases we added other capabilities, where we felt a class had lost the ability to make some interesting decisions, related to its special grenade type.”
in my opinion if the grenade slot is added and has it's own stock and unlocks while the grenades mines and other things like it use the Gas Passer like mechanics, by which I mean not being able to be resupplied at the spawn locker, has both a timed recharge but also can be recharged by doing damage, depending on utility vs damage I would make the grenade types have 15, 30 and 45 second recharge and 150, 300 and 450 damage fill up (Gas passer would be on slot 7, but I would try to improve it. obviously make it the 45 second recharge and 450 damage recharge for ability to change item time by pressing R when active between Gasoline Cloud and Gasoline Bomb(50 damage in a stock rocket damage AOE and no falloff)) that would make the grenades less spammy but also allow for actual good grenade type weapons tanks to the simple fact you have to earn those grenades, mines and utility items.
when you pointed out the fact that jarate is just "debuff banner" so to speak, it made me question why there is a duplicate of another item in the game that's just basically a straight upgrade to one another class has, but then I realized that the opportunity cost for jarate is that you aren't playing a better class. a sniper that isn't scoped in and landing headshots has the worst dps of any character in the game, has no mobility options, can't make building, can't heal teammates, and can't go invisible/feign death. if soldier had access to jarate, it would be one of the most overpowered weapons in the game, since it would be on a class with near double the health, and the ability to literally fly across the battlefield. in the hands of a sniper however, the arc of the weapon forces you to slowly walk with your stubby non-scout legs up to the front line, the last place you want to be as sniper, and put yourself in a compromising position with the lowest health pool in the game, and no means of rapid retreat or damage mitigation like literally every other class in the game can do. Your stuck in a bad position with a weapon that's outside its effective range while being within the effective range of your opponents weapons. I think THAT'S the reason why no one complains about it. it's not because people aren't abusing it properly, it's because it just simply has a hidden opportunity cost that's not listed on the weapon: "you must be desperately out of position in order to deploy this item effectively."
That's a really good point to make. Even quickscoping is a difficult counter-argument to make because why would you purposely choose to get into a range where it's "kill or be killed" when you can just hang back and not worry about most of the classes in the game? You either have to commit fully to the bushwacka, which means running at the entire team with a damage vulnerability and no movement options at all, or fall back and continue to snipe people, making it's use for you pointless. And in pubs, coordination isn't going to happen on the average day, so good luck having your team see half the other team pissed on and deciding to follow up on it, especially when the pissed team runs away to avoid the damage vulnerability they now have for 10 seconds. Soldier's most effective range is close range, and he has a reliable method of getting to his most effective range, so jarate on him would be more obviously overpowered and make the buff banner useless, since jarate's nature isn't antithetical the the rocket launcher's nature. Quite honestly you could make that argument for most of the other classes, such as scout, pyro, heavy, hell possibly even demo or spy. The sniper rifle is a terrible weapon to follow up the jarate with, not only because the sniper rifle has no damage fall off, or because the damage bonus is hardly noticeable, but also because you can just shoot someone in the head and get the exact same result you would otherwise, so what's the point!? It's a scare tactic to make them back into your quickscope range at best, and a complete waste of a secondary at worst that is better served for the smg. Which leaves the huntsman and bushwacka as the only options left. The huntsman can be a good argument, but you sacrifice the ability to finish off light classes at any time after shooting them in order for you to be able to bodyshot 5 classes now instead of 0 for ten seconds, every 20 seconds,, but because now you are fighting much closer to the enemy team, 20 seconds of waiting means a lot more than it would with any sniper rifle. But the range where you'll be using jarate, you may as well just go for a headshot anyway and be able to instakill all classes and eight of the nine with overheal. The bushwacka isn't much better. Granted it's the only melee you should ever use with jarate, but having it out makes you take more damage, making it actively worse the longer you have it out, and you have to run DIRECTLY AT THE ENEMY TEAM AS A SNIPER. WITHOUT USING HIS RIFLE. Jarate is a support tool and nothing more. It's best used when sniper throws it at a team and gives his team a free 35% damage bonus, theoretically so that his team can wipe out the enemy team faster so he can focus more on countersniping, at least that's the rosy image I had in mind. That hardly ever happens tho, more often than not you'll just see the sniper using it against that one annoying spy or getting himself killed trying to throw it at the enemy team. Like Fish said, it's one of those weird anomalies where it's blatantly overpowered and banned in competitive, and rightfully so, yet in casual it kind of just exists as the tool that causes the bushwacka to get so much hate.
That is true but most of the time when you want to deploy the jarate you will be around power classes like heavies with medics or soldiers, so that not only you take advantage from it but also your teammates, and so no one will want to try suiciding themselves just to pick a sniper that is out of his place. Plus, you can always equip the huntsman to go for quick jarate and arrows.
@@Reilers idk, a good sniper is worth much more than a normal power class, just watch fatmagic as he demolishes entire (clueless) enemy teams despite being on the frontlines with a normal rifle, or more commonly, a swarm of spinning snipers demolishing teams it’s always a good play to kill (or better yet, annoy) snipers until they give up and play something else
Great video. The buff banner comparison also didnt mention the loud trumpet sound cue which warns the enemy the banner is being deployed. The jarate is a fast moving projectile which can be deployed in one quick throw. It's very hard to avoid jarate if you dont see the sniper before, compared to the banners, and even the bright colors of ubercharge. I'm glad you shouted out your server too, it's great.
@@davidhong1934 i think it does, its got a clip and a barrel, and it doesn't have a string used to fling-shot the arrow, but instead is fried with a trigger, but i could be wrong
@@davidhong1934 "gun" doesn't have to mean firearm I've heard the term "bowgun" get thrown around sometimes before and it's used to refer to crossbows Ergo the crossbow is a gun Plus, uh... semi-auto crossbows exist They're actually really freaking old if you can believe it (archaeologists found some dating back to 2400 BCE)
5:48 Projectiles can be played around, reflected, destroyed, travel time, general unpredictable movements, and a lower damage threshold make Huntsman way less of an objective problem like Sniper Rifles are
at least when a sniper kills you with a bullet, you know he hit you. the huntsman can reward you with a one shot kill for missing (watch shounic's video about it's hitbox if you're unfamiliar.) dying to a sniper rifle headshot can feel unfair, sure, but dying to a huntsman headshot is complete and total bullshit.
@@evan9730 Huntsman is random crit equivalent for snipers. Total drooling moron can shoot in your general direction and score insta kill just because hitboxes deside to be extra wacky. Rifle is much more fearsome and imbalanced in hands of capable sniper but in hands of uncapable one huntsman is way way more annoying.
17:38 "Most of the time when an option is easily the best or the meta as it's often called it's pushed to it's absolute limits in terms of use and abuse" "there isn't a case quite like this" Yes there is. The diamondback for the spy is 100% this. how often do you see people use the revolver on spy? it's blatantly overpowered, yet not a lot of people use it, or at least not in good synergy with their knife. Your entire argument about not using both the primary and jarate together to be more efficient can be EASILY moved over to spy with his knife and diamondback.
Heya Fish, wanna do a video on the Rebalance server just so it gets more exposure? Maybe invite people in for balance discussion, and do like five minute updates on what's changed and why. Low effort, low editing, just a discussion. Maybe it'd help prevent burnout. Sorry for the rantiness. I just like the server a lot and care about your mental health and well being. Keep up the fantastic work and community building.
TF2 boomer here but I still remember when this was added into the game and it was designed to be anti-Spy support because of the Sniper's rivalry with the Spy during the update. Remember when updates were fun and added lore with a theme behind them? Good times huh?
15:05 I prefer the cozy camper because it passively helps me, while still allowing that spy or pyro who sneaked up close to me without me noticing to punish me for not paying attention like I should. Because if a pyro or a spy manages to reach me, they deserve to kill me for managing to avoid my team and awareness of situations.
What if to further discourage selfish Jarate use, make it so that if the Sniper tossing the Jarate is within its range of effect, he also begins to take Mini-Crits?
On topic of Buff Banner, I think its passive upside should give you more reserve ammo, like 1 or 2 extra clips. Since you are playing the role as mostly damage dealer and not flanker in this loadout, you will have to shoot a lot more rockets to charge your banner. And it would even slightly un-fuck Liberty launcher since it technically has 4 reserve clips and not 5 like stock.
oh gods that would make the glue eating beggars loadout have 4 more rockets but yeah, i like this idea it’ll probably never come into play much but it’s something.
Hell no, just having 1 extra ammo on soldier's rocket would be unbalance as shit. The reason why soldier has a shotgun as his secondary is because his primary was intended to have low ammo count, the banners exist in sole purpose to lower soldiers extra firepower in return give soldier a buff and rewards you after filling the charge.
Unlike other team vs team multiplayer game, TF2 design philosophy does not prioritize teamwork and cooperation. They acknowledge that if youre in a server with a bunch of random full of casuals of 2006 players, cooperation and coordination is not gonna be common before the introduction of competitive tf2. Thats is why I believe jarate is not commonly seen as overpowered. Like you mentioned, it relies on the team to be the most effective. The game impacts how the player think, and in response the player do not treat Jarate to be as blatantly overpowered as it is.
Honestly love how much effort went into this video, you have gotten so much better since you started and I am proud to have been around for the journey!
Quick scoping isn't easy, but that doesn't mean it's balanced. Being able to kill 5 out of the 9 classes in the blink of an eye from any range is the problem.
Lost cause Man, He thinks aiming as sniper is so hard it’s balanced. Sniper only loses 1V1 if they suck, And all the “Counterplay” falls apart the second the team supports their sniper.
You can also do that in almost every other multiplayer shooter, both before and after TF2; from CS:GO to Quake 2 to Call of Duty to Battlefield 1, they all have weapons that can instantly kill anyone from any range. You’d think that if something was so obviously broken that it would have stopped being a thing sometime in the last 25+ years.
@@Shaun_Jones Those are very different kinds of games. When everyone can do it, it's balanced by that very nature. However, in TF2, only one class has that ability, and it's not only the most damage any class can achieve without relying on RNG or outside support, but it's instant, reliable, and requires literally no risk to the Sniper himself.
@@Duothimir it’s not any different, anybody can pick sniper, just like anybody can equip a sniper rifle in those other games. I guess in special game modes like comp or highlander, but most of the time there are no restrictions. Plus, snipers are arguably more overpowered in other games; they don’t have to charge shots, all of their enemies have the same health, and some of those rifles don’t even need a headshot to one-hit.
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There's a reason why Jarate and Mad Milk are both banned in highlander and 6s-- It's too powerful to be able to alter the entire course of a fight with a completely skill-less "I throw this item" action. Good video
1:50 as an asspiring game dev here are my two cent on your cost of skill - Skill/time investment: yes skilled things should be more worth but you always need to avoid having something that when mastered is broken. See Aurelion Sol in League of Legends the Characters is brutally hard to play but people who master him wreck entire games. The skill curve of and unlock in a game should ideally look like a bellcurve almost. If you have no idea what you are doing you should suck once you have an idea you should be able to perform at a good enough level of your own skillgroup (if we talk about mmr based rankings) and once you put alot of time in with it you should be able to wreck even people with it that are slightly better than you. Even if something requires great skill for it to become good if your game incentive people to learn it enough by making it feel rewarding on the way there people will do it. Something that is only fun however once you have mastered it sees rarely any players do it because it is just not rewarding to learn the weapon along the way
See i get where you come from on the skill investment thing, but having skill isnt an actual cost.its a barrier to entry. Sure, it means less people will be dangerous with the item, but it does nothing to weaken the people who have that skill. Imagine if the jarate worked the same, but you had to press b to piss and refill it, and if you didnt, you'd have to wait through the cooldown again. That requires you to have a sense of timing, awareness, and knowledge, and thats, broadly speaking, skill. But it does nothing to weaken the item. What you're actually speaking about is Difficulty. As another, more relevent example. Rocket jumping takes skill. But that skill isnt a cost when doing an unopposed rollout because noone could possibly be between you and your target, the health and ammo you are spending to get there is. It forces you to behave differently, visiting healthpacks and ammo kits and you still usually arrive in a slightly worse state than if you walked- but you also arrived faster. On the other hand, when it comes to market gardening, you have to compensate for the actions of another player, contend with counterplay, and hit a moving target with split second timing. The difficulty of this action is a cost. Which of those applies to sniper? I dont know! But skill is the wrong word to use.
Honestly, if I were to nerf Jarate I would much rather have the effects of it reduced rather than it’s utility. I played with it a bit on your rework server and absolutely hated using it. I never had it when I needed it, because the situations that I needed it were so frequent that it basically was always used up due to how long the regen time was, and you’re not always able to get enough damage to fill the Jarate up. I’d much rather remove the mini crit effect and give it like an outline so if you throw it at the enemy it’s more of a small bonus to your team rather than just winning engagements instantly. That way it can keep the utility and I can continue to extinguish my teammates without feeling like I have to be selfish with it to use it properly. That being said, I do agree Jarate is really damn strong.
That's less of a rebalance and more of a rework (changing from minicrits to applying Glowing). I am also surprised that the long-range headshotting class is struggling to get the damage needed to recharge a Jarate. I would say that maybe what you're suggesting would be good as a different weapon, such as something like a throwable handful of Australian jungleberries, but Fish's alternative of giving it longer time is a good balancing for what we do have now. Remember: Just because something is difficult or not always working doesn't mean it's bad. We don't always win in competitive games, like this.
@@analysissel I just think the nerfs fish made are too harsh. Like, all you need to do to fix Jarate is remove the ability to be filled by the resupply locker and maybe increase the recharge time to 30 seconds so it’s not as spammy.
"Controversally say is the best weapon" Not so much controversy here. The weapon that can grant mini-crits not only for the sniper, but for his team mates, allowing even bad players to score easy kills. Not only that, but this weapon regenerates passively and can be replenished at spawn. (saying this before watching the video)
I just like the implications of the various recharge methods. As soon as he throws his piss, he instantly starts pissing in a new jar. Alternatively, he can run back to the weapon closet, where he has stored several other jars before the match, or extinguish players around him, who return the kindness by donating some of their piss to him.
Canonically Sniper bought pills from Mann Co. that increased his kidneys size and production so he could produce enough piss to perform the combat technique known as Jarate.
Fun fact for memers: piss and glass is really dangerous if mixed in one, if you throw an jar of piss on someone and it breaks the person can be hurt by the shards and the pee will not just make more pain but it can infect the wounds so this s- Piss is dangerous
I really like Shounic's idea of putting a more visible laser on sniper with a bit of testing I think it would be a great way to include sniper into the fight more. I would have it as it becomes more visible the higher your charge meter encouraging snipers to move around more. Also on engie think it'd be interesting to have the wrangler effect on Engie instead of his turret. There's so much awesome balance this game could have..if only, great video though!
Okay, first off soundtracks from the OG Sly Cooper. Now from the OG Ratchet and Clank. Sir, you are now honour bound to use Jak and Daxter music in a future vid. Great work, long may you continue making fun and entertaining content.
Honestly, MOST bad balance isn't about things being bad It's about select things being WAY TOO STRONG For one thing, a bad option just gets ignored except for memes Conversely, an OP option gets rapidly spammed by tier whores who cram it down your throats so hard you can't NOT run up against it
5:40 don't worry fish, hate both the sniper rifle AND the huntsman. Because, yeah, the huntsman is a projectile and projectiles are notably harder to hit than hitscan, so shooting for the head would be much harder. If you had to shoot for the head. Because of the entire projectile teleporting to the head thing once in the bounding box in certain area, shooting for the head is way easier, and because your bounding box is way bigger and doesn't change when crouching. Not only is crouching against sniper now useless, but also he doesn't need to shoot directly at the head. Also I've hear many people say the arrow teleport can also make the shot miss; no, the arrow will only teleport if it DOESN'T hit the head. If the arrow is actually hitting the head, it wont teleport it regardless of the bigger hitbox being hit or not. Either way, great video fish, keep it up!
I find it somewhat funny that the jarate can be restocked with the resupply, being one of the highest impact weapons, while the gas passer, being one of the lowest, has a longer cooldown, doesn’t restock on death AND doesn’t restock on resupply.
The funny jar of pee is better than the hitscan insta-kill from any range because, unlike the hitscan insta-kill from any range, when I land a direct hit on someone's head with it my shot actually registers.
I think a fun canon-minded way to rebalance it would to be to have a longer recharge, like 40s, that reduces when the sniper takes damage - as he wets himself with fear. Could also still retain some fun clutch potential when fighting close quarters
Projectiles are inherently harder to aim than hitscan, and that difficulty increases as range increases. The reason the Huntsman gets a pass is because of this increased cost in skill. A sniper rifle can hit the enemy at the same speed regardless of range, and the only real difference is in how small the head is on your screen. A Huntsman arrow has travel time, and can reach a point where someone can react to you shooting an arrow and dodge out of the way, on longer sightlines. It's far less oppressive to be in a Huntsman's sightline, when it has a longer cooldown between shots, travel time, lower damage, and less ammunition than the rifles. Put simply, a sniper rifle can deal 150 damage in a fraction of a second at any range. The Huntsman takes longer to reach an enemy, with that time increasing with distance, making ranged shots more about prediction and gamesense than just pure aim. Both take skill, just different kinds of skill, and the Huntsman tends to feel more fair when on the receiving end.
there is another cost to consider, Opportunity Cost. where picking up the jar also sacrifices the somewhat reliable single target finishing damage of an SMG.
Not only that, the seconds a sniper is using the jarate are seconds the sniper isn't going apeshit on the enemy from the other side of the map with his sniper rifle
Hello, PISS ENTHUSIAST here, I am going to explain 5:56 with a simple explanation being ENTITY COLLISION. The thing with the last section of thundermountain is that it has a special destruction animation at the end of the round (if blu team caps) and the thing with parts that fly around like that, is that 1. it has no collision with the Jarate, making it bounce around rather than explode on impact, and 2. it doesn't do ANYTHING to block the Jarate's splash radius. Making it the most broken map to involve the Jarate.
What if the jarate spash could also cover the sniper using it? It would still be useful at range, but using it in close range would also put the user at risk.
as much as i like the game being more inclusive with more playstyles, i also like being able to play the fricking game against this fricking piss man who for most classes has no counter at long range besides scrambling around like an idiot (or a rocket jump i guess but sometimes that still gets you fricked.)
What a strange comment. You could say that about any class that exists in the game, they exist because people find playing that role to be fun. That's the whole point of a video game.
I think a fun redesign of the weapon would be not to have it not just be a passive reload but an active one. Like you have an empty jar and need to actively stand still and piss in it to fill it, similar to heavy eating.
I think this is one of your best videos! Honestly I think the whole beginning part describing the cost and reward of items was very interesting🥰 If you did general tf2 balance vids I think you would nail it down with how you describe the nature of game balance
I know this isn’t the only point of the video but I don’t find the Jarate + Bushwaka combo to be overpowered. Every class has a way to fight back. People forget that the Bushwaka makes the user 20% more vulnerable to damage while active, so you can practically be one shot by a rocket, pill, scattergun meat shot, etc. In high Level play most snipers prefer to use the shahansha over the Bushwacka because they won’t be annihilated in one hit. Melee is also very inconsistent and often times just won’t work unless you are very precise. Here are the match ups between each class and the Bushwaka combo: Scout: The Scout is faster than the sniper and is better at close range. It’s very hard to get melee’d while running away and jumping. Soldier: Very fast with rocket jumping and a sniper running at you with a melee will just be destroyed by a close range rocket. Pyro: Pyros will Airblast the sniper away from them so they can never be hit with the melee. Demo: Any sniper charging at you with a melee is asking to be blown up by a sticky trap. Demoknight is more vulnerable but he can still run away, and is faster than the sniper. Heavy: Heavy can tank a crit melee and also shred a sniper at close range with the minigun Engie: You don’t have to worry about this combo as Engie as long as a sentry is active. Medic: A medic will stay behind their teammates in order to avoid the melee hit. Sniper: A sniper that gets Jarated and killed with a melee is playing the game wrong. You are a long range class for a reason. Spy: The only class who has trouble with this combo is the spy, but good spies will kill the sniper with a backstab instead of engaging them in a 1v1 fight. In a 1v1 fight, the spy still has access to weapons with crits and the revolver still has a longer range than a melee.
Legitimately braindead. The Jarate Bushwacka combo is notorious for a good reason. It allows sniper to get close range one-shots, the long range class that is SUPPOSED to be weak at close range.
Congrats, you pointed out the problem, spy is snipers counter yet the jarate bushwaka combo specifically destroys them. Spy's low damage on his pistols means that sniper will always win if the spy gets caught by the jarate, unless he's a pro with the ambassador or has crits stored in the diamondback. And given most spys run the L'Etranger the +20% damage means basically nothing.
@@gavros9636 But I also pointed out that spies shouldn’t fight snipers in 1v1 fights. I usually backstab the sniper while they are tunnel visioned with their scope. The Spy sucks at 1v1s with every single class in the game. A Sniper coming towards you with a melee is also a player who is begging to be face stabbed. Good spies can easily facestab any player coming at them with a melee weapon.
5:47 in my eyes, with a 125 health class, if you get MVP with a huntsman, you've got my respect. Since it's harder to hit targets the further they are from you, it promotes a in-your-face kind of playstyle which I vastly prefer to the "oh look, you didn't see the pixel on the screen or crouch jumped non-stop, guess you'll die" because I can retiliate. I'll be honest, if get headshotted twice in the same round by a sniper, I switch my quick- fix to the vaccinator with 90% bullet resistance just to ruin his day. if sniper were to be changed in the future by some kind of miracle, I would personally do this: -Add 25 hp:125-->150 -charged shot only deals extra damage on body shots, hitting a headshot will deal just as much damage -reverse damage fall-off, similar to the crossbow( starting at 15 base damage in melee range, 30 at medic gun range, and 100 from badwater last spawn to the small corridor for enemies) this would make him weak at close range , and not able to quick scope all flanker classes, even if he had an insane skill level, the extra hp and reduced value of charged shots and importance of the placement, will make his gameplay far more active then before, and more interesting to fight against
Nobody's gonna play a class that no matter what scenario, can only oneshot 4/9 classes. every other class except pyro and heavy can oneshot almost everyone one way or the other. What about krits charging a sniper? Would his bodyshots do more?
@@fnutek3720 it's the base damage that would get affected by the fall-off, so yes, a melee range headshot is 45 damage and a long range maximum reverse fall-off would do 300, you would still be able to one shot everybody or at least kill them fast, but that would now require positioning rather then patience, and the extra hp+ reduced utility of charged shot would promote that playstyle
@@fnutek3720 no, fully charged shots would deal the same damage a headshot would do at the same range, it just allows for a higher Marge of error, rather then multiplying a multiplier
Damn I'd love to see that "video pointing out all the weaknesses of sniper so people can shut the fuck up"! Surely it'll make some pretty good, totally logical and unbiased points that aren't just "it takes skill so it's perfectly fair that I can kill you from the other side of the map with a hitscan weapon on a short-to-mid combat game while putting myself at literally no risk cause I'm not even close to the enemy's range"!
Just a quick correction, jarate gives you an assist in the kill feed. I think the perceived lack of impact you suspect is because it doesn't have a kill icon. Also, I saw that the Thermal Thruster got some pretty hefty buffs on the rebalance server. Since that was a maybe on the future of BWA video but wasn't with the bad weapons in the tier list stream, is that getting a BWA? Because the jetpack is my favorite Pyro secondary, and I think it's pretty underrated and useful. All it potentially needs to be as good as the flares or shotguns is a shorter switch speed. I also think the Mantreads could use a slight buff on the server, maybe that should be a BWA since that was another maybe.
In my opinion, the Mantreads are perfect as they are An even better air mobility and straight up knockback immunity on Soldier is huge It's a niche item that wouldn't be used in competitive and that's okay, it's really strong as it is now in the moments and the loadouts where it's supposed to be used
Idea for a fix to Jarate and the other liquid throwables. Make the effects of the item of a dead player that threw it stop being applied on the coated victims. Now what about the Sydney Sleeper you may ask? Have it where it keeps a lingering effect with Jarate and add Mad Milk on Full Charge shots.
Every pyro: “The Scorch shot is the best and does the most damage!” Me: (proceeds to get a kill that would’ve gotten away if I didn’t use the flare gun while he was on fire to crit him) “Yeah, have fun giving me free health buddy!”
The point is, when you have a medic, it's basically useless to use compared to sandvich cuz you're gonna get your health way more effeciently from med than from any lunchbox item and you can support your med and other teammates with sandvich better to keep this wonderful symbiosis going. But yeah, if you're alone, it makes more sense to have a banana. But honestly people really downplay dalokoh's bar, it's basically as good as sandvich in that you can eat it 3x more often but get only 100 health, which is still pretty darn good, only downside is that to maximize that, you would have to eat more often, but other than that +50 health really is excelent for heavy, it saved my ass so many times not to mention it basically nulifies all downsides of the GRU by eating it right after rollout, so you don't end with hundred and something health but basically full 350 health immediately. That's the reason why i use it for heavy on offense.
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Ambassador](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/odd5NY6UCR4/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Ambassador](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] Spy's Best Weapon](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jvfA553xnck/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Bad Weapon Academy: The Brass Beast](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ItPiz9lQIp0/mqdefault.jpg)
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Misc Stereotypes! Episode 9: The Sniper](/img/n.gif)
I would like the idea of a April Fools episode called "good weapon academy" where you show us a broken weapon or utility and also show us how to use them poorly by mixing them with other weapons/utility's that have no synergy with them
Here.
*Insert Scorch Shot spam and then taking out the full phlog mmmph, and then a god like.*
Welcome to --bad-- good weapon academy! Where I use and teach you how to be an asshole! But first, HERES OUR SPONSOR *skips 60 seconds maybe probably* Alright, now since thats done lets talk about... Ughhh fuck this thing. Lets talk about its stats. The Scorch Shot stats and hidden stats are:
On hit on burning target, you mini crit them, and on top of that it has the same splash as the DETONATOR. Which lets you do a slightly higher jump than normal. But the Detonator has a wayyy better one though. And on direct hit, the flare flies onto the ground, but since it still goes slightly forward, you can make enemies get launched into the air about twice their height! But the hitbox instantly goes above them and then drops... Which means you can just use the degreaser, burn them, switch to the hell shot, shoot them, look up with the degreaser in hand, then shoot them in the air, and that might sound hard, but the scorch shot shoots them into the air on direct hit too. AND SLOWS. So this shit is easy! Boom quick 62 dps, now that might sound like much, but the afterburn doubles, its not much but it's worth mentioning if its mge though. But what if... You spam it? The other flare guns NEVER had this much spamming potential, where you can just continuosly shoot a choke point or aim just outside a wall and you can hit them, which is why the Phlog is painful with this. Just spam it at the payload cart, spam it in dustbowl, and boom, Phlogs already ready to rampage with those FREE CRITS and two second immobile immortality. I'm fishstickonastick, happy aprils fools and don't use this because I didn't mention all the stats you fucking commenter that is pretending to be me. It has a 20% damage penalty and you take 20 damage while flare jumping, and the biggest downside: I'll come to your house and strangle you.
@@smickothesmickest Bonus if the dustbowl phlog/scorch shot/powerjack pyro has a medic glued onto him with an übercharge somehow always ready to go
“In Defense of W M1ing”
Yes he will do an Aprils fool video on the original
“Pairing the Gunboats with the Rocket Jumper has a perfect synergy where you actively take negative damage, effectively healing you upon each jump…”
1:20
This con is 100% true. My friend once equipped the Scorch Shot as a joke and Fish jumped through his screen, broke his kneecaps, and then strangled him. It was horrific, but I warned him.
Deserved
did they sleep together?
@@alex.g7317 You can probably find that on Thesaurus or some other obscure site
@@pablo.gonzales.2008 wtf are you talking about?
@@alex.g7317 No, but they were roommates.
Another change to Jarate that the HiGPS Balance mod does is "On self hit: Piss yourself. Wanker." Where the Sniper who threw it WILL get coated in Jarate if you throw it too close to yourself, and combined with the 20% or so damage vulnerability of the Bushwacka is SPICY.
Honestly not a bad idea. Makes using it at close range a huge risk, which should be the case for sniper
Honestly I think this is the best way to go with it. It keeps the great support aspects of the weapon and makes the risk of using it to go "haha sniper weak at short range guaranteed crit go brrr?" far more significant. Perhaps tweak the cooldown time or something, but that's the small stuff. I think this should be in the actual game.
It should also have a kill feed icon when you piss yourself
Society if everyone in the game got a notification saying "(sniper) pissed themself"
Just to clarify, by "in the game" I mean everybody with TF2 currently open, not just people in the same server.
@@notanimposter it makes everyone on the server involuntarily stop any actions, rotate to face the sniper's current position, and play the schadenfreude taunt animation. Then the match resumes as normal.
I think you accidentally forgot to talk about the Classic for the entire video...
I have failed as a cultist.
elmaxo, i offer you 15 keys for you to forgive fishe
I am a primary source to this.
I distinctly remember a game on Mossrock, I randomly decided to pull out the Jarate as a sniper. I spent, I shit you not, around 10 minutes going back and forth in and out of the spawn doors repeatedly throwing jarate every few seconds. I did absolutely nothing else. The amount of kill assists I earned and the sheer RAGE that the enemy team was spewing in chat is immeasurable. Top of the scoreboard with barely any kills. We held on last for that long and I like to think it's because anyone who walked within visible distance of spawn was coated in piss. The position of the defending team VS the attacking team made that removal of damage falloff, and extra damage, work EXTREMELY effectively.
This weapon is banned in standard competitive for a GOOD reason.
Yeah if the sniper really doesn’t care about headshots or really desperate, he can camp in spawn and get his jarate he been storage up and keep throwing it to back off pushes. Same thing with the mad milk.
But yet again, we shouldn't nerf weapons on the basis of whether or not they are banned in competitive. Good example is the bonk nerf in Jungle Inferno. Had absolutely no reason to nerf it whatsoever, especially since you were already trading damage or support for momentary invulnerability which would take a decent amount of time to regenerate again, leaving you already more vulnerable than you previously were. Bonk was banned in Comp. Why? Because people whined that they'd 'have' to chase the Scout around the map as he snuck behind them. Umm... how does that apply to Casual, again? Oh right, he can slip behind the enemy team with slightly more ease than usual and then repeatedly flank or backcap on you. But the thing is, he can already do that. Bonk just makes it slightly easier at the cost of an entire slot which could be filled with more useful items.
As a result, Bonk is now much more situational and allows the enemy team to catch up to you like nothing once it ends, making the entire purpose of the weapon in helping you flank completely useless. Maybe it can help you slip past sentries still, but even then if anyone sees you or can be bothered to follow you behind, the slow effect will make you a sitting duck.
@@JeffarryLounder Uh... BONK's fine
Lemme ask you this: how often does the fact you get slowed down ACTUALLY get you killed when not getting that would mean you escaped after using BONK?
The answer is probably not a lot, because if you were getting slowed, you weren't exactly being inconspicuous (and thus probably had a guy tailing you)
Besides, even if you WERE getting chased, guess what: THAT'S FINE.
Why? Because if you're getting tailed, that's at least one player who ISN'T fighting the rest of your team.
THAT'S why it got nerfed, so that one BONK Scout couldn't charge past an otherwise steadily holding team and back cap instantly
Because, well, that's kinda just unfair
As of now BONK forces you to play at least a little smart with it rather than just braindead rushing past the entire enemy team with virtually no consequences
Plus if comboed with a power class push you can still draw sentry fire and keep it off your team (which is still great and even if you die the sentry's probably going down)
@@red5t653 Actually, you're right. It rarely does come into play because even with pre-nerf bonk I always used it smart anyway. Pre nerf bonk ALSO taught you not to braindead-like rush into a horde of the enemy team because there was often little stopping them, especially enemy Scout's from catching up to you. And yes, I heard that they would abandon their team momentarily, but that only really becomes an issue in competitive gameplay. Missing out on one or two people in the frontlines will weaken the defense slightly, but when you're in a standard casual match with 12 players on each team, this rarely affects anything. We should stop basing competitive TF2's logic on Casual TF2's logic. I don't play TF2 to compete. I play TF2 to toy around with fun, different mechanics which would otherwise be banned in competitive play.
Besides, bonk lasted 8 seconds. If the enemy team had a stable defense, Scout would only JUST make it out of the frontline, meaning he would still be easily targeted running away as any enemy worth their salt would give volunteer chase to the Scout. This meant if the enemy could single him out and get the jump on him, he'd barely even make it past the frontline most of the time. As a Scout main, myself, I always used to volunteer myself to chase the Scouts who tried slipping behind with bonk, and it was only rare when they would actually kill me, given I had the jump on them each time. Nonetheless, If he could get out of the frontline with time to spare, it often meant he would not even need the bonk to begin with.
It would be annoying for the enemy team, especially when the Scout repetitively did this, but by no means was it broken; and there was also a reason it was rarely used back then anyway. It was never really that effective outside of coordinated pushes and avoiding sentry guns. Back then, I rarely used it myself because everytime I would, I would be behind the enemy line (you know, where NONE of your team to back you up is) and get ganged up on by a large portion of their team who'd narrowly seen me slip by their lines. Since it was Casual gameplay though and not competitive, they had no risk momentarily forfeiting some of their team to take me down. In other words, why base Casual-oriented gameplay on competitive?
Overall, sorry for it being so long, but the main use I used to get out of this thing was annoying people. Like drinking the bonk, getting right up in someone's face and taunting them, and then running away without being slowed, and hence with no consequences, so they wouldn't just catch up to me and pwn me instead. That's why I might have such a bias on the issue.
@@JeffarryLounder this is a pointless conversation bc jarate is also overpowered in CASUAL, not just competitive. they dont always contradict each other
i agree valve shouldve left bonk alone as its fine in casual and communtiy comp can just ban it, but jarate is ALWAYS op
Sniper: "professionals have standards"
Also Sniper: *throws his piss at people*
He didn't say that they have high standards
Jarate*
@@muddashucka9743 **Be polite**
@@Pequalidem2 jarate is piss
@@muddashucka9743 be efficient
The funny thing about all this is that a more balanced version of Jarate exists: The Sydney Sleeper. You're sacrificing your direct offensive potential for the ability to place long range debuffs. But it's made redundant by the fact that it exists *ALONGSIDE* the jarate. So why sacrifice your ability to quickscope light classes when you can accomplish the same upsides as the sleeper on your secondary?
Still banned in comp. But not for jarate effect actually.
But because it charges bodyshots faster, which makes med picks way easier
I personally use the Sydney Sleeper for its immediately faster charge rate (as opposed to snowballing like the Bazaar Bargain) instead of the Jarate. It can also be used as a backup Jarate in the short downtime when Jarate isn't on somebody.
I mean, I named my Strange Sleeper the "Canberra Chest Counter" for a reason - it's more effective picking off low-health targets with a quick-charge bodyshot and caving in their chests, more than trying to hit jittery head hitboxes.
Mind you, I've been playing TF2 long enough that I remember when the Croc-O-Style kit was perfect for counter-sniping (particularly on 2Fort-based maps), where the opposing sniper would try and got for the headshot on you as they do for everybody but when they take the shot you survive long enough to cave in their chest with your own charged shot such if they want to counter you they'd have to have another sniper on their team to be a counter-counter-sniper, thus drawing the heat of 2 of their team away from your team by having them focused on you instead - Of course their counter-counter-sniper was rendered impotent if you had a medic or dispenser backing you up as provided you had at least 2hp or more when their second sniper took the shot; you'd survive any headshot with 1hp when using the full set.
But anyway, comparing the Sleeper (modern) against Jarate is kinda difficult as the Jarate works best in short-to-medium range engagements whilst the Sleeper is designed for medium-to-long range engagements (like the other rifles of its day).
So people came up with the Critical Piss loadout of Sleeper-Jarate-Bushwhacker in order to cover their bases for pissing on (and thus pissing OFF) their opponents at almost any range, especially since the breaking of the Polycount Kits nerfed the Croc-O-Style for counter-sniping with the Sleeper.
Maybe I'm just an idiot but I like to run Sydney Sleeper + Smg for what I like to call "The Body Shooter"
Fully charged shot on an enemy with the Sydney Sleeper, and then pick them off with either my Smg or another shot.
answer: because the sleeper is funny
17:14 as a wise man once said "Psychological damage doesnt show up on the scoreboard man! it aint worth nothing!"
I remember it's by Lazy Purple, but which video and what situation led him to say it. I can't remember but it's gold.
@@awhimsyone6510 It was the how it feels to play demoman extras, specifically the bit on the Scottish Resistance
Valve: "We removed grenades because players would abuse them, and they wernt fun to fight against."
Valve: *adds throwable, AOE debuffs*
Demomam thrown grenades
I mean the most memorable time I’ve had with grenades in a valve game was getting 14 lobbed at my hidey hole so maybe they have a point
MvM Gas Passer
Play TfC for any amount of time and you’ll understand why grenades were limited to aoe debuffs.
@TheMuffinman191 I' not sure I ever will play TFC so could you just tell what exactly about them is so hated?
and its the most iconic one too
The sandwich is first. But yea
honestly the most unique one too, food for health yeah... But piss in a bottle? GIMME A SIP OF THAT
Idk about most. But definitely up there
It's also mentioned on the song by random encounters MEDIC
Is the first member, of the-jar-crew
If you think this thing has overpowered potential normally, just wait until Jarate Sniper teams up with Wrangler Engineer. Jarate coated enemies trying to fight a Wrangled Sentry can only be described as suicidal. This combination is outright evil.
Now add a full bfb boost scout with fan o' war
@@victoriascott6062 *fires the pistol 2 times*
*scout loses boost*
*dies*
Every class should have a throwable jar of bodily fluid at this point. Demo should have a bag full of vomit, medic should have IV full of patient’s blood. Why just restrict it to the sniper and scout? I won’t be satisfied until I can play as a soldier and toss a giant ziplock bag of shit at my enemies
Heavy should have a liquid jar of sandvich
Soldier should have bread with tumors in a jar
pyro should have a jar of gasoli- oh wait that already exists. too bad it sucks
I think Demo would throwable liquid would be a mix of vomit, gunpowder and alcohol.
Medic would be blood pack that would be infected
Spy: it would a mixed of tear gas and ash from it smokes. edit: it mostly likely smoke or flashbang given spy wants to formal classy about it
Engie: it would binding spices or/and maneuver
@@starmaker75 A pinch of potassium chloride.. and kablooey!
I think The Bushwhacka gets more of the hate in the combo since it seems to be clearly designed to combo with the Jarate. It's not often that a sniper is going to be pushing along with a Buff Banner Soldier.
I like the changes, they seem just enough to reel the Jarate back in without making it feel worthless (like the Gas Passer)
Yeah it like was clever for scout, but the clever can still useful even with sandman nerf, while bushwach was definitely intended for jarate.
that's a funny gimmick, tho
Bushwacka piss combo is not good, but people can't counter is so they think it's too good.
@@bounter_ it's not like *good*, but it's situationally very strong, annoying as fuck, and bad for sniper's overall class balance
The issue more is the fact that it kind of weakens snipers main weakness of close range combat. If you look at most of snipers non primaries basically all of them outside 2 or MAYBE 3 exist specifically to soften his counters, and the bushwacker jarate combo is arguably the most broad of this. Its not as good against specific counters but its so generalist in its coverage since it basically makes sniper have a fighting chance in so many close range situations that that's kind of its issue on top of basically one shotting 7 out of the 9 classes. Its also easier to punish lower skilled players with easy to use moves like that, just look at the phlog and how much more broken it is in lower skills vs higher skills. Balancing for lower skills is just as important as balancing for higher skills since balancing for lower skill levels means you're balancing for the majority of players. You dont want easy "noob trap" weapons ruining games for weaker players just as you wanna limit better players from being utter pubstompers too much.
The huntsman isn't as bad as the rifles because it forces the Sniper to put himself at greater risk (moving closer to his targets) in order to be effective, due to travel time and lack of scope zoom. It has the same counters as any other projectiles, airblast, short cuircuit, and being able to dodge out of the way of it. Not to mention it has a very noticeable charging animation that makes it very predictable when the sniper is going to fire. That's why the huntsman isn't complained about as much as the rifles...
@@Soapromancer english
@@gavros9636 "You can jump and charge a shot around the corner like Heavy"
like idk, mans was coherent for the first half of the comment
@@gavros9636 they're saying that huntsman is very strong since it can one shot light classes with an uncharged headshot, and you can jump around corners while charging it like a heavy does when revving up
@@Soapromancer Your second point about corner spamming/guessing is true, but saying the Huntsman can headshot instakill light classes without charge mens nothing when the rifles also do that from a safer distance (excluding the Sydney Sleeper and Classic but let's be real no one uses those if going for max efficiency)
I believe Fish's point was that everyone **used** to complain about the huntsman non-stop and defend the sniper rifle, and now it seems like the inverse is true, which is weird since neither item has been buffed or nerfed in any way for like a decade, but public perception of both of them seems to have changed for some reason.
A bit from the dev commentaries I always think about with Jarate (and also the Mad Milk and Gas Passer):
“[Adrian Finol] One of the main changes between Team Fortress Classic and Team Fortress 2 was the removal of thrown grenades.
Most classes could carry a standard hand grenade along with a secondary grenade, tied more closely to the class. Team Fortress 2's focus on unique class roles led us to notice that the standard hand grenade was a more powerful combat decider than some of the primary weapons. This made the classes more similar in combat-not a desired effect. In addition, when we looked at some of Team Fortress Classic's map stalemates, they often resulted from large amounts of grenade spam.
**Two cases were particularly problematic: That of players throwing grenades repeatedly through doorways, hoping to kill any enemies who might be there, and players on the verge of death throwing all their grenades in rapid succession, hoping to get a kill after they die.**
Removing standard hand grenades made the game more fun almost immediately, especially for new players who were often confused as to why they died, when a grenade went off at their feet.
**When we examined the class-specific grenades, we found similar problems.**
Eliminating them from playtests gave us yet another boost in making the game more fun. Once we'd decided on removal, we analyzed each class to see what capabilities might have been lost as a result of the decision. In some cases we added other capabilities, where we felt a class had lost the ability to make some interesting decisions, related to its special grenade type.”
*Result:* Urination Grenade
in my opinion if the grenade slot is added and has it's own stock and unlocks while the grenades mines and other things like it use the Gas Passer like mechanics, by which I mean not being able to be resupplied at the spawn locker, has both a timed recharge but also can be recharged by doing damage, depending on utility vs damage I would make the grenade types have 15, 30 and 45 second recharge and 150, 300 and 450 damage fill up (Gas passer would be on slot 7, but I would try to improve it. obviously make it the 45 second recharge and 450 damage recharge for ability to change item time by pressing R when active between Gasoline Cloud and Gasoline Bomb(50 damage in a stock rocket damage AOE and no falloff)) that would make the grenades less spammy but also allow for actual good grenade type weapons tanks to the simple fact you have to earn those grenades, mines and utility items.
when you pointed out the fact that jarate is just "debuff banner" so to speak, it made me question why there is a duplicate of another item in the game that's just basically a straight upgrade to one another class has, but then I realized that the opportunity cost for jarate is that you aren't playing a better class.
a sniper that isn't scoped in and landing headshots has the worst dps of any character in the game, has no mobility options, can't make building, can't heal teammates, and can't go invisible/feign death.
if soldier had access to jarate, it would be one of the most overpowered weapons in the game, since it would be on a class with near double the health, and the ability to literally fly across the battlefield. in the hands of a sniper however, the arc of the weapon forces you to slowly walk with your stubby non-scout legs up to the front line, the last place you want to be as sniper, and put yourself in a compromising position with the lowest health pool in the game, and no means of rapid retreat or damage mitigation like literally every other class in the game can do. Your stuck in a bad position with a weapon that's outside its effective range while being within the effective range of your opponents weapons.
I think THAT'S the reason why no one complains about it. it's not because people aren't abusing it properly, it's because it just simply has a hidden opportunity cost that's not listed on the weapon: "you must be desperately out of position in order to deploy this item effectively."
That's a really good point to make. Even quickscoping is a difficult counter-argument to make because why would you purposely choose to get into a range where it's "kill or be killed" when you can just hang back and not worry about most of the classes in the game? You either have to commit fully to the bushwacka, which means running at the entire team with a damage vulnerability and no movement options at all, or fall back and continue to snipe people, making it's use for you pointless. And in pubs, coordination isn't going to happen on the average day, so good luck having your team see half the other team pissed on and deciding to follow up on it, especially when the pissed team runs away to avoid the damage vulnerability they now have for 10 seconds.
Soldier's most effective range is close range, and he has a reliable method of getting to his most effective range, so jarate on him would be more obviously overpowered and make the buff banner useless, since jarate's nature isn't antithetical the the rocket launcher's nature. Quite honestly you could make that argument for most of the other classes, such as scout, pyro, heavy, hell possibly even demo or spy. The sniper rifle is a terrible weapon to follow up the jarate with, not only because the sniper rifle has no damage fall off, or because the damage bonus is hardly noticeable, but also because you can just shoot someone in the head and get the exact same result you would otherwise, so what's the point!? It's a scare tactic to make them back into your quickscope range at best, and a complete waste of a secondary at worst that is better served for the smg.
Which leaves the huntsman and bushwacka as the only options left. The huntsman can be a good argument, but you sacrifice the ability to finish off light classes at any time after shooting them in order for you to be able to bodyshot 5 classes now instead of 0 for ten seconds, every 20 seconds,, but because now you are fighting much closer to the enemy team, 20 seconds of waiting means a lot more than it would with any sniper rifle. But the range where you'll be using jarate, you may as well just go for a headshot anyway and be able to instakill all classes and eight of the nine with overheal. The bushwacka isn't much better. Granted it's the only melee you should ever use with jarate, but having it out makes you take more damage, making it actively worse the longer you have it out, and you have to run DIRECTLY AT THE ENEMY TEAM AS A SNIPER. WITHOUT USING HIS RIFLE.
Jarate is a support tool and nothing more. It's best used when sniper throws it at a team and gives his team a free 35% damage bonus, theoretically so that his team can wipe out the enemy team faster so he can focus more on countersniping, at least that's the rosy image I had in mind. That hardly ever happens tho, more often than not you'll just see the sniper using it against that one annoying spy or getting himself killed trying to throw it at the enemy team. Like Fish said, it's one of those weird anomalies where it's blatantly overpowered and banned in competitive, and rightfully so, yet in casual it kind of just exists as the tool that causes the bushwacka to get so much hate.
That is true but most of the time when you want to deploy the jarate you will be around power classes like heavies with medics or soldiers, so that not only you take advantage from it but also your teammates, and so no one will want to try suiciding themselves just to pick a sniper that is out of his place. Plus, you can always equip the huntsman to go for quick jarate and arrows.
@@Reilers "no one will want to suicide to pick a sniper pit of his place"
That does happen pretty often
@@Reilers idk, a good sniper is worth much more than a normal power class, just watch fatmagic as he demolishes entire (clueless) enemy teams despite being on the frontlines with a normal rifle, or more commonly, a swarm of spinning snipers demolishing teams
it’s always a good play to kill (or better yet, annoy) snipers until they give up and play something else
Ok but this logic falls flat on a lot of maps where you calp nesr the spawn anyway. Especially on last. 8:56
Great video. The buff banner comparison also didnt mention the loud trumpet sound cue which warns the enemy the banner is being deployed. The jarate is a fast moving projectile which can be deployed in one quick throw. It's very hard to avoid jarate if you dont see the sniper before, compared to the banners, and even the bright colors of ubercharge.
I'm glad you shouted out your server too, it's great.
that, and that while you deploying the banner you can do nothing to defend yourself
That trumpet sound is useful, it makes your teammates group up with you
HEADS UP!
in classic tf2 fashion, the strongest weapons aren't even guns
Does the Crusader's crossbow count as a gun? It's not a firearm, and the crossbow part is only decorative.
@@davidhong1934 i think it does, its got a clip and a barrel, and it doesn't have a string used to fling-shot the arrow, but instead is fried with a trigger, but i could be wrong
(exept the gas passer, but we don't talk about that)
@@davidhong1934 "gun" doesn't have to mean firearm
I've heard the term "bowgun" get thrown around sometimes before and it's used to refer to crossbows
Ergo the crossbow is a gun
Plus, uh... semi-auto crossbows exist
They're actually really freaking old if you can believe it (archaeologists found some dating back to 2400 BCE)
Wrangler, jarate, mad milk, sandvich.
5:48 Projectiles can be played around, reflected, destroyed, travel time, general unpredictable movements, and a lower damage threshold make Huntsman way less of an objective problem like Sniper Rifles are
at least when a sniper kills you with a bullet, you know he hit you. the huntsman can reward you with a one shot kill for missing (watch shounic's video about it's hitbox if you're unfamiliar.) dying to a sniper rifle headshot can feel unfair, sure, but dying to a huntsman headshot is complete and total bullshit.
Not to mention that Huntsman arrows are incredibly fucking slow.
@@evan9730 Well, it the hitboxes weren't so generous it would be nigh impossible to hit a moving target.
@@justafurrywithinternet317 not if you git gud
@@evan9730 Huntsman is random crit equivalent for snipers. Total drooling moron can shoot in your general direction and score insta kill just because hitboxes deside to be extra wacky. Rifle is much more fearsome and imbalanced in hands of capable sniper but in hands of uncapable one huntsman is way way more annoying.
9:38 wow.
Setting aside any issues with that weapon combo, hot DAMN was that pretty impressive!
17:38
"Most of the time when an option is easily the best or the meta as it's often called it's pushed to it's absolute limits in terms of use and abuse"
"there isn't a case quite like this"
Yes there is. The diamondback for the spy is 100% this. how often do you see people use the revolver on spy? it's blatantly overpowered, yet not a lot of people use it, or at least not in good synergy with their knife. Your entire argument about not using both the primary and jarate together to be more efficient can be EASILY moved over to spy with his knife and diamondback.
Heya Fish, wanna do a video on the Rebalance server just so it gets more exposure? Maybe invite people in for balance discussion, and do like five minute updates on what's changed and why. Low effort, low editing, just a discussion. Maybe it'd help prevent burnout.
Sorry for the rantiness. I just like the server a lot and care about your mental health and well being. Keep up the fantastic work and community building.
TF2 boomer here but I still remember when this was added into the game and it was designed to be anti-Spy support because of the Sniper's rivalry with the Spy during the update. Remember when updates were fun and added lore with a theme behind them? Good times huh?
you're clearly a tf2 boomer
obligatory "remember when updates?"
12:14
That's it. This has gotta be the best clip to advertise the mad milk's abilities anyone has ever seen.
19:00 Sniper: **gets 5 kills**
His bladder: "YOU GET ONE MORE KILL AND I AIN'T HOLDING IT ANYMORE"
15:05
I prefer the cozy camper because it passively helps me, while still allowing that spy or pyro who sneaked up close to me without me noticing to punish me for not paying attention like I should. Because if a pyro or a spy manages to reach me, they deserve to kill me for managing to avoid my team and awareness of situations.
What if to further discourage selfish Jarate use, make it so that if the Sniper tossing the Jarate is within its range of effect, he also begins to take Mini-Crits?
On topic of Buff Banner, I think its passive upside should give you more reserve ammo, like 1 or 2 extra clips.
Since you are playing the role as mostly damage dealer and not flanker in this loadout, you will have to shoot a lot more rockets to charge your banner. And it would even slightly un-fuck Liberty launcher since it technically has 4 reserve clips and not 5 like stock.
oh gods that would make the glue eating beggars loadout have 4 more rockets
but yeah, i like this idea it’ll probably never come into play much but it’s something.
Hell no, just having 1 extra ammo on soldier's rocket would be unbalance as shit. The reason why soldier has a shotgun as his secondary is because his primary was intended to have low ammo count, the banners exist in sole purpose to lower soldiers extra firepower in return give soldier a buff and rewards you after filling the charge.
YOOO IS THAT RATCHET AND CLANK MYSIC I HEAR, I’m glad to see another classic R&C fan make use of its incredible soundtrack
Wait so you're basically telling me a sniper pisses into a jar every 20 seconds and then uses it as a broken weapon
Unlike other team vs team multiplayer game, TF2 design philosophy does not prioritize teamwork and cooperation. They acknowledge that if youre in a server with a bunch of random full of casuals of 2006 players, cooperation and coordination is not gonna be common before the introduction of competitive tf2.
Thats is why I believe jarate is not commonly seen as overpowered. Like you mentioned, it relies on the team to be the most effective. The game impacts how the player think, and in response the player do not treat Jarate to be as blatantly overpowered as it is.
Honestly love how much effort went into this video, you have gotten so much better since you started and I am proud to have been around for the journey!
Quick scoping isn't easy, but that doesn't mean it's balanced. Being able to kill 5 out of the 9 classes in the blink of an eye from any range is the problem.
Lost cause Man, He thinks aiming as sniper is so hard it’s balanced. Sniper only loses 1V1 if they suck, And all the “Counterplay” falls apart the second the team supports their sniper.
Agreed. “It’s hard” isn’t an excuse for unbalanced design.
You can also do that in almost every other multiplayer shooter, both before and after TF2; from CS:GO to Quake 2 to Call of Duty to Battlefield 1, they all have weapons that can instantly kill anyone from any range. You’d think that if something was so obviously broken that it would have stopped being a thing sometime in the last 25+ years.
@@Shaun_Jones Those are very different kinds of games. When everyone can do it, it's balanced by that very nature. However, in TF2, only one class has that ability, and it's not only the most damage any class can achieve without relying on RNG or outside support, but it's instant, reliable, and requires literally no risk to the Sniper himself.
@@Duothimir it’s not any different, anybody can pick sniper, just like anybody can equip a sniper rifle in those other games. I guess in special game modes like comp or highlander, but most of the time there are no restrictions. Plus, snipers are arguably more overpowered in other games; they don’t have to charge shots, all of their enemies have the same health, and some of those rifles don’t even need a headshot to one-hit.
Completely unrelated but it's actually great to hear some Ratchet and Clank OST for once in someone's video. That's awesome my dude
0:13 Beating someone to death with a raw fish, after dousing them with a jar of mysterious white liquid.
Ever heard the phrase trouser trout
The silent Ratchet and Clank backround music its a good touch my man
Yop is a product originally from France, and is produced by the yogurt manufacturer Yoplait. Later Yop was marketed to different countries worldwide. Yoplait claims that Yop was the first drinkable smoothie in Canada.
- saturated: 15%
Energy: 333kJ / 79kcal
Fat, total: 7%
Protein: 5 grams
1:21 I dunno man, dying in real life seems like pretty high cost to me.
There's a reason why Jarate and Mad Milk are both banned in highlander and 6s-- It's too powerful to be able to alter the entire course of a fight with a completely skill-less "I throw this item" action. Good video
keep on using the RAC 1 music, it always makes my day hearing David Bergeaud's best work
1:50 as an asspiring game dev here are my two cent on your cost of skill
- Skill/time investment: yes skilled things should be more worth but you always need to avoid having something that when mastered is broken. See Aurelion Sol in League of Legends the Characters is brutally hard to play but people who master him wreck entire games. The skill curve of and unlock in a game should ideally look like a bellcurve almost. If you have no idea what you are doing you should suck once you have an idea you should be able to perform at a good enough level of your own skillgroup (if we talk about mmr based rankings) and once you put alot of time in with it you should be able to wreck even people with it that are slightly better than you. Even if something requires great skill for it to become good if your game incentive people to learn it enough by making it feel rewarding on the way there people will do it. Something that is only fun however once you have mastered it sees rarely any players do it because it is just not rewarding to learn the weapon along the way
If there was a lengthy animation of sniper filling the jar up with piss I would be happy
What about mad milk?
See i get where you come from on the skill investment thing, but having skill isnt an actual cost.its a barrier to entry. Sure, it means less people will be dangerous with the item, but it does nothing to weaken the people who have that skill. Imagine if the jarate worked the same, but you had to press b to piss and refill it, and if you didnt, you'd have to wait through the cooldown again. That requires you to have a sense of timing, awareness, and knowledge, and thats, broadly speaking, skill. But it does nothing to weaken the item. What you're actually speaking about is Difficulty.
As another, more relevent example. Rocket jumping takes skill. But that skill isnt a cost when doing an unopposed rollout because noone could possibly be between you and your target, the health and ammo you are spending to get there is. It forces you to behave differently, visiting healthpacks and ammo kits and you still usually arrive in a slightly worse state than if you walked- but you also arrived faster. On the other hand, when it comes to market gardening, you have to compensate for the actions of another player, contend with counterplay, and hit a moving target with split second timing. The difficulty of this action is a cost.
Which of those applies to sniper? I dont know! But skill is the wrong word to use.
And there are entire games that have a high skill floor.
Honestly, if I were to nerf Jarate I would much rather have the effects of it reduced rather than it’s utility.
I played with it a bit on your rework server and absolutely hated using it. I never had it when I needed it, because the situations that I needed it were so frequent that it basically was always used up due to how long the regen time was, and you’re not always able to get enough damage to fill the Jarate up.
I’d much rather remove the mini crit effect and give it like an outline so if you throw it at the enemy it’s more of a small bonus to your team rather than just winning engagements instantly. That way it can keep the utility and I can continue to extinguish my teammates without feeling like I have to be selfish with it to use it properly.
That being said, I do agree Jarate is really damn strong.
That's less of a rebalance and more of a rework (changing from minicrits to applying Glowing). I am also surprised that the long-range headshotting class is struggling to get the damage needed to recharge a Jarate.
I would say that maybe what you're suggesting would be good as a different weapon, such as something like a throwable handful of Australian jungleberries, but Fish's alternative of giving it longer time is a good balancing for what we do have now. Remember: Just because something is difficult or not always working doesn't mean it's bad. We don't always win in competitive games, like this.
I wonder if just making it have a splash effect like a direct hit instead of all this other stuff would balance it.
@@analysissel I just think the nerfs fish made are too harsh. Like, all you need to do to fix Jarate is remove the ability to
be filled by the resupply locker and maybe increase the recharge time to 30 seconds so it’s not as spammy.
That and increasing the throwing rang would make it like a spotting tool for other snipers on your team, it'd be pretty cool
"Controversally say is the best weapon"
Not so much controversy here. The weapon that can grant mini-crits not only for the sniper, but for his team mates, allowing even bad players to score easy kills. Not only that, but this weapon regenerates passively and can be replenished at spawn.
(saying this before watching the video)
well the sniper rifle is just op so
I just like the implications of the various recharge methods. As soon as he throws his piss, he instantly starts pissing in a new jar. Alternatively, he can run back to the weapon closet, where he has stored several other jars before the match, or extinguish players around him, who return the kindness by donating some of their piss to him.
Canonically Sniper bought pills from Mann Co. that increased his kidneys size and production so he could produce enough piss to perform the combat technique known as Jarate.
Fun fact for memers: piss and glass is really dangerous if mixed in one, if you throw an jar of piss on someone and it breaks the person can be hurt by the shards and the pee will not just make more pain but it can infect the wounds so this s- Piss is dangerous
I really like Shounic's idea of putting a more visible laser on sniper with a bit of testing I think it would be a great way to include sniper into the fight more. I would have it as it becomes more visible the higher your charge meter encouraging snipers to move around more.
Also on engie think it'd be interesting to have the wrangler effect on Engie instead of his turret.
There's so much awesome balance this game could have..if only, great video though!
14:45 Please make a video on how to counter sniper that'd be amazing thanks
(play sniper or use the vaccinator if you aren’t as good as the other sniper)
jumpscare them with flight options
Okay, first off soundtracks from the OG Sly Cooper. Now from the OG Ratchet and Clank. Sir, you are now honour bound to use Jak and Daxter music in a future vid. Great work, long may you continue making fun and entertaining content.
"Behold! My Hitscan That Can Insta-Kill From Any Range Inator!"
"It's kind of an unwieldy name, isn't it?"
My thought process seeing a shit load of people approaching me as sniper is more along the lines of;
1) Oh shit, oh god, oh fuck.
2) Panic.
3) Dead.
This video made me realize that bad balance doesn't always have to be about a bad weapon, it can also be for busted, OP weapons
Honestly, MOST bad balance isn't about things being bad
It's about select things being WAY TOO STRONG
For one thing, a bad option just gets ignored except for memes
Conversely, an OP option gets rapidly spammed by tier whores who cram it down your throats so hard you can't NOT run up against it
5:40 don't worry fish, hate both the sniper rifle AND the huntsman. Because, yeah, the huntsman is a projectile and projectiles are notably harder to hit than hitscan, so shooting for the head would be much harder. If you had to shoot for the head. Because of the entire projectile teleporting to the head thing once in the bounding box in certain area, shooting for the head is way easier, and because your bounding box is way bigger and doesn't change when crouching. Not only is crouching against sniper now useless, but also he doesn't need to shoot directly at the head. Also I've hear many people say the arrow teleport can also make the shot miss; no, the arrow will only teleport if it DOESN'T hit the head. If the arrow is actually hitting the head, it wont teleport it regardless of the bigger hitbox being hit or not.
Either way, great video fish, keep it up!
I find it somewhat funny that the jarate can be restocked with the resupply, being one of the highest impact weapons, while the gas passer, being one of the lowest, has a longer cooldown, doesn’t restock on death AND doesn’t restock on resupply.
i love how ratchet and clank 1 soundtracks are used in the background
Good to know that a fellow ratchet and clank enjoyer is out there besides myself
@@tishansmith-king1951 sadly I have only played all the ps2 versions. Newest playstation I got lol.
@@thehaterade61 I don't blame you at all. Just knowing you exist is fine with me
That Spy ragdoll at 12:48 was beautiful.
The funny jar of pee is better than the hitscan insta-kill from any range because, unlike the hitscan insta-kill from any range, when I land a direct hit on someone's head with it my shot actually registers.
TF2 is a game
* end video *
Thank god you did it. I ve been waiting man. Missed you
I think a fun canon-minded way to rebalance it would to be to have a longer recharge, like 40s, that reduces when the sniper takes damage - as he wets himself with fear. Could also still retain some fun clutch potential when fighting close quarters
Could the cooldown speed up if Sniper is under water? As in he drinks it and refills his bladder.
I’d say mad milk is more repulsive because they literally call it a ‘milk-like’ substance
Projectiles are inherently harder to aim than hitscan, and that difficulty increases as range increases. The reason the Huntsman gets a pass is because of this increased cost in skill. A sniper rifle can hit the enemy at the same speed regardless of range, and the only real difference is in how small the head is on your screen. A Huntsman arrow has travel time, and can reach a point where someone can react to you shooting an arrow and dodge out of the way, on longer sightlines. It's far less oppressive to be in a Huntsman's sightline, when it has a longer cooldown between shots, travel time, lower damage, and less ammunition than the rifles.
Put simply, a sniper rifle can deal 150 damage in a fraction of a second at any range. The Huntsman takes longer to reach an enemy, with that time increasing with distance, making ranged shots more about prediction and gamesense than just pure aim. Both take skill, just different kinds of skill, and the Huntsman tends to feel more fair when on the receiving end.
This is a really good video with a well-written script. The ending scared me.
there is another cost to consider, Opportunity Cost. where picking up the jar also sacrifices the somewhat reliable single target finishing damage of an SMG.
Not only that, the seconds a sniper is using the jarate are seconds the sniper isn't going apeshit on the enemy from the other side of the map with his sniper rifle
His rifle is pretty alright for finishing wounded enemies at close range so lack of SMG doesn't hurt him that much.
It really should coat the sniper in it too at close range, making it high risk high reward with bwacka
Yes!
Doesn't the Bushwacka already have a damage vulnerability on it?
It's 3pm honey! Time to like the checkmarked account's comment
This is the best video you've ever made. Absolutely love the way you discuss it all, and every single joke hit for me.
Hello, PISS ENTHUSIAST here, I am going to explain 5:56 with a simple explanation being ENTITY COLLISION.
The thing with the last section of thundermountain is that it has a special destruction animation at the end of the round (if blu team caps) and the thing with parts that fly around like that, is that 1. it has no collision with the Jarate, making it bounce around rather than explode on impact, and 2. it doesn't do ANYTHING to block the Jarate's splash radius. Making it the most broken map to involve the Jarate.
Well-put, Fish. It's an interesting perspective to hear as someone who does not play sniper period.
What if the jarate spash could also cover the sniper using it? It would still be useful at range, but using it in close range would also put the user at risk.
Your editing has already made a massive leap since the start of the year, keep the good stuff rolling!
Sniper serves no purpose in the game, except to give people who like to play as snipers something to do.
those are facts but sniper mains will always be in denial.
Yeah it’s the only class you could remove and the game would get better instead of worse.
as much as i like the game being more inclusive with more playstyles, i also like being able to play the fricking game against this fricking piss man who for most classes has no counter at long range besides scrambling around like an idiot (or a rocket jump i guess but sometimes that still gets you fricked.)
What a strange comment. You could say that about any class that exists in the game, they exist because people find playing that role to be fun. That's the whole point of a video game.
@@Banshee523 the other classes interact in a more natural way, and the game is otherwise close range. Sniper is an out of place anomaly
I like the idea of sniper pissing himself out of satisfaction every time he gets a headshot.
I think a fun redesign of the weapon would be not to have it not just be a passive reload but an active one.
Like you have an empty jar and need to actively stand still and piss in it to fill it, similar to heavy eating.
I think this is one of your best videos! Honestly I think the whole beginning part describing the cost and reward of items was very interesting🥰
If you did general tf2 balance vids I think you would nail it down with how you describe the nature of game balance
I know this isn’t the only point of the video but I don’t find the Jarate + Bushwaka combo to be overpowered. Every class has a way to fight back. People forget that the Bushwaka makes the user 20% more vulnerable to damage while active, so you can practically be one shot by a rocket, pill, scattergun meat shot, etc. In high Level play most snipers prefer to use the shahansha over the Bushwacka because they won’t be annihilated in one hit. Melee is also very inconsistent and often times just won’t work unless you are very precise. Here are the match ups between each class and the Bushwaka combo:
Scout: The Scout is faster than the sniper and is better at close range. It’s very hard to get melee’d while running away and jumping.
Soldier: Very fast with rocket jumping and a sniper running at you with a melee will just be destroyed by a close range rocket.
Pyro: Pyros will Airblast the sniper away from them so they can never be hit with the melee.
Demo: Any sniper charging at you with a melee is asking to be blown up by a sticky trap.
Demoknight is more vulnerable but he can still run away, and is faster than the sniper.
Heavy: Heavy can tank a crit melee and also shred a sniper at close range with the minigun
Engie: You don’t have to worry about this combo as Engie as long as a sentry is active.
Medic: A medic will stay behind their teammates in order to avoid the melee hit.
Sniper: A sniper that gets Jarated and killed with a melee is playing the game wrong. You are a long range class for a reason.
Spy: The only class who has trouble with this combo is the spy, but good spies will kill the sniper with a backstab instead of engaging them in a 1v1 fight. In a 1v1 fight, the spy still has access to weapons with crits and the revolver still has a longer range than a melee.
Legitimately braindead. The Jarate Bushwacka combo is notorious for a good reason. It allows sniper to get close range one-shots, the long range class that is SUPPOSED to be weak at close range.
Congrats, you pointed out the problem, spy is snipers counter yet the jarate bushwaka combo specifically destroys them.
Spy's low damage on his pistols means that sniper will always win if the spy gets caught by the jarate, unless he's a pro with the ambassador or has crits stored in the diamondback. And given most spys run the L'Etranger the +20% damage means basically nothing.
@@gavros9636 But I also pointed out that spies shouldn’t fight snipers in 1v1 fights. I usually backstab the sniper while they are tunnel visioned with their scope. The Spy sucks at 1v1s with every single class in the game. A Sniper coming towards you with a melee is also a player who is begging to be face stabbed. Good spies can easily facestab any player coming at them with a melee weapon.
love that you had ratchet and clank music for this one
5:47 in my eyes, with a 125 health class, if you get MVP with a huntsman, you've got my respect. Since it's harder to hit targets the further they are from you, it promotes a in-your-face kind of playstyle which I vastly prefer to the "oh look, you didn't see the pixel on the screen or crouch jumped non-stop, guess you'll die" because I can retiliate. I'll be honest, if get headshotted twice in the same round by a sniper, I switch my quick- fix to the vaccinator with 90% bullet resistance just to ruin his day.
if sniper were to be changed in the future by some kind of miracle, I would personally do this:
-Add 25 hp:125-->150
-charged shot only deals extra damage on body shots, hitting a headshot will deal just as much damage
-reverse damage fall-off, similar to the crossbow( starting at 15 base damage in melee range, 30 at medic gun range, and 100 from badwater last spawn to the small corridor for enemies) this would make him weak at close range , and not able to quick scope all flanker classes, even if he had an insane skill level, the extra hp and reduced value of charged shots and importance of the placement, will make his gameplay far more active then before, and more interesting to fight against
Nobody's gonna play a class that no matter what scenario, can only oneshot 4/9 classes. every other class except pyro and heavy can oneshot almost everyone one way or the other. What about krits charging a sniper? Would his bodyshots do more?
@@fnutek3720 it's the base damage that would get affected by the fall-off, so yes, a melee range headshot is 45 damage and a long range maximum reverse fall-off would do 300, you would still be able to one shot everybody or at least kill them fast, but that would now require positioning rather then patience, and the extra hp+ reduced utility of charged shot would promote that playstyle
@@Bnvnu you said charged shots only deal 150 no matter what.
@@Bnvnu you want a long ranged class to be short range.
@@fnutek3720 no, fully charged shots would deal the same damage a headshot would do at the same range, it just allows for a higher Marge of error, rather then multiplying a multiplier
whenever i see the jarate (i tried) i always think its the stock secondary and then i realize… “no wait the smg is the stock secondary”
Damn I'd love to see that "video pointing out all the weaknesses of sniper so people can shut the fuck up"!
Surely it'll make some pretty good, totally logical and unbiased points that aren't just "it takes skill so it's perfectly fair that I can kill you from the other side of the map with a hitscan weapon on a short-to-mid combat game while putting myself at literally no risk cause I'm not even close to the enemy's range"!
Great vid fish. Good natural flow to the script
Just a quick correction, jarate gives you an assist in the kill feed. I think the perceived lack of impact you suspect is because it doesn't have a kill icon.
Also, I saw that the Thermal Thruster got some pretty hefty buffs on the rebalance server. Since that was a maybe on the future of BWA video but wasn't with the bad weapons in the tier list stream, is that getting a BWA? Because the jetpack is my favorite Pyro secondary, and I think it's pretty underrated and useful. All it potentially needs to be as good as the flares or shotguns is a shorter switch speed.
I also think the Mantreads could use a slight buff on the server, maybe that should be a BWA since that was another maybe.
Big nick you gotta pay attention when watching the video because fish never said assists dont come up in the kill feed
In my opinion, the Mantreads are perfect as they are
An even better air mobility and straight up knockback immunity on Soldier is huge
It's a niche item that wouldn't be used in competitive and that's okay, it's really strong as it is now in the moments and the loadouts where it's supposed to be used
Your editing has gotten so insanely good holy shit
Idea for a fix to Jarate and the other liquid throwables. Make the effects of the item of a dead player that threw it stop being applied on the coated victims. Now what about the Sydney Sleeper you may ask? Have it where it keeps a lingering effect with Jarate and add Mad Milk on Full Charge shots.
Jarate and bushwacka make a combo I like to call : Australian scout
Sniper doesn't have any counter play though.
Far be it for me to say, but now that the piss has been talked about, can we discuss the Piss Gun? It's that support syndrome, but to an extreme.
The Ratchet and Clank 1 ost in the background? Ya got good music taste.
The Mad Milk is even more disturbing. In its description, it’s considered a “non milk substance”
Original name
MANN MILK
LOOK IT UP!
I appreciate your use of Ratchet and Clank music.
What if they gave scout the scorch shot. That would be terrible.
Every pyro: “The Scorch shot is the best and does the most damage!”
Me: (proceeds to get a kill that would’ve gotten away if I didn’t use the flare gun while he was on fire to crit him) “Yeah, have fun giving me free health buddy!”
if they swapped the jarates and gas passers timers everyone would go apeshit for differing reasons
11:57 hold on, did that demon catch _the_ demon slayers punch?
the banana is better than sandvich because, when you're at the point when the sandvich is much better, you're basically dead as heavy
The point is, when you have a medic, it's basically useless to use compared to sandvich cuz you're gonna get your health way more effeciently from med than from any lunchbox item and you can support your med and other teammates with sandvich better to keep this wonderful symbiosis going. But yeah, if you're alone, it makes more sense to have a banana. But honestly people really downplay dalokoh's bar, it's basically as good as sandvich in that you can eat it 3x more often but get only 100 health, which is still pretty darn good, only downside is that to maximize that, you would have to eat more often, but other than that +50 health really is excelent for heavy, it saved my ass so many times not to mention it basically nulifies all downsides of the GRU by eating it right after rollout, so you don't end with hundred and something health but basically full 350 health immediately. That's the reason why i use it for heavy on offense.
"What are you watching?"
"a man justifying why throwing jars of piss at people is a good thing"
Is that the music from the logging site on planet Eudora? Hell yeah, I love that place.
It's kinda funny that the best weapon in a game is a jar of urine.
the jarate-buchwacka is kinda useless since snipers have guaranteed melee crits anyways
believe it or not but I don't mind the jarate.