The parallel earth ones converted by removing the brain, normally... but they also encased full bodies for quicker conversions seen via torchwood's cyber woman. The cybus legion being our universe variants are seen to convert full bodies in Closing time. They also use human parts to repair their own. The latest Warrior's are said in the episode to be full of human remains. (Ashad wanted to remove the parts but it was only for the specific Squadrons) Evan the mondasian revamp are full bodies still. The only ones to not follow this and remove it all as part of their design and just keep the skeleton are the nightmare in silver style. Its self explanatory that they need more armor as time progresses. They were at constant war with humanoids. They managed to fight back the Cybermen and the Cybermen would evolve to overcome and eliminate weakness. They have to defend themselves. Got to remember too this is a all ages show. Look at concept art over the years. Super creepy stuff. But thats the problem its "too scary" for kids n such. Sadly we have massive limitations but its enough to let the imagination do the rest of the work.
@@marquisofcarrabassyeah like that’s the point like I agree the fact of cybermen talking and having normal conversations is hilarious it’s just them being devoid of human life is the point
I feel this description is inaccurate because it's more so like flesh behind metal. The best designs for me the mondasians and cybusmen were more like metal around bone or decaying flesh. They had a wrap around quality that makes the idea of being inside one haunting. The rest are more rounded, cylinder or sphere like in design around their heads, making them clearly helmets which just go around the head. The cloth around the face, tubes with probable liquids, medical like equipment on their bodies made it seem like a medical experiment that went on and on to house a dead but functioning corpse. While the cybus men seemed more like to replace the flesh, the sharp edges of the cheeks and chin built more so to cover nerves or the skull.
I loved the Tenth Planet cybermen. Of all the versions, they looked the most like their concept: human beings who had had their body parts extensively replaced by machinery. Ironically, the small budget lead to what I think is the most effective costume design: these Cybermen still have what are recognisably human parts (such as their hands) and have a bulky life-support system. They're not designed as war machines, as th elater variants were. The cloth face immediately makes the viewer imagine what might be underneath it. The voices are eerie and recognisably human, yet inhuman: they are exactly what you'd expect, synthesised and mad efrom pre-existing human speech, so you get the strange intonations: not quite machine, not quite human either. The later ones tended to be much more like robots.
Definitely the creepiest Cybermen. A lot of thought went into their design, even the large lamp-like unit on their heads that is connected by conduits to where the ears should be. That's actually a parabolic dish microphone, which was how they could hear.
Nobody seems to have mentioned that classic story, about the Cybermen attacking the Moonbase.... Very well made ( considering how long ago, and of course, the famous BBC Budget limitations ).... I agree with all comments, the first Cybermen were the most scary and impressive... As a kid, it always scared me, when they spoke, the mouths opened, but did not open and close according to the words spoken...?.... Always loved the wide lens Woolworths torch up on their heads !... Totally agree, the modern versions are just like Robocop... The old ones are the best....!
My favourite Cybermen are and have always been the Tenth Planet or Mondasian Cybermen. They look like burn victims, wrapped up in bandages, and with all the tubes running in and out of them, they are just SO creepy. And I love their speech pattern. My second favourites are probably the Invasion Cyberman.
@@thewhoview They're my favorites too! (2017 Mondasian, Telosian[Both Moonbase & Tomb variants{Yes, the costumes in bothh episodes are different in design, The Mind Robber shows this on his website.}], Planet 14[Invasion], The 12th Cyber legion, & the Warrior-Class Cybermen to be exact. If only the 80s design kept the Invasion faces.)
I have to agree that the Cybermen were best in the 60s, they started off so disturbing having human hands and were just so ruthless instead of the new series where they just keep saying Delete
If there is one thing that made the old Who cybermen better, was that they were portrayed as individuals not as mindless stomp in time metal men. It played into the suggestion that there was a person or at least what was left of the person entombed in that outer shell. Beyond that flashy cgi does not make up for a good story
I'm not sure they were portrayed as individuals. Part of what I found scary about them as a kid (first time around) was precisely their sameness - that was one of the human aspects they had lost that was creepy about them.
I remember watching the cybermen when I was a kid in the 60s . I’m that old . I’ve always said that they were the scariest adversary for the doctor. They scared me when I was a kid, plus I always wanted to be one. I think it was because the early cybermen had silver wellies. Later ones wore ordinary boots. As a kid I always loved wearing my wellies, so I pretended to be a cyberman when I wore my wellies. Yes I was a strange kid 😂
@@thewhoview cybermen became the henchmen, instead of being the main villains/ baddies. It’s strange remembering watching it and knowing they were silver, even though it was in black and white
Ditto - you weren't the only strange kid - I shot sparks from my hands in Moonbase/Wheel homage. A friend of mine has a pair of silver ugg boots.....still triggering over 50 years later.!
Easy: 1: They often hid in the shadows at first. 2: They had a more cyborg feel to them.....NuWho cybermen are more like Ironman wannabes or Robocop....and Robocop knows how to do it right. 3: Classic Cybermen had more body horror. 4: NO loud STOMP STOMP STOMP (they even had the Mondasian Cybermen in NuWho go stompy stomp), only the aforementioned Robocop does stompy stomp well. 5: They don't got logos on their chests. 6: NO stupid "DELETE!" catchphrase. What the hell was Russel SNORTING back in the 2000's? They messed up the Sontatons as well, and in more ways than one. 7: They were fighting to merely survive. With their home world gone, they were an endangered species. 8: Injured Cybermen spewing white foam from their chest devices, nuff said. 9: The Tomb Cybermen's babbling when doing physical exertion was creepy. 10: The 10th Planet Cybermen speech.....like a computer scanning the functions of a larynx and speaking in a clipped computer voice was also creepy.
Great assessment. I'd also add the glimpses of an eyeball deep in the black socket in Tenth Planet. With the, perhaos best unanswered question of "What sort of face is under that mask?" Rather than a standard shrivelled up skull prop that just falls out when the face panel opens.
@@Benjiesbeenbetter. Me, I always felt what is under any of the Cybermasks are bare skulls with electronic bits. A good example, go look up the prototype test scene from Robocop 2. The second test prototype steps out from the lab, and he pulls off his helmet, revealing a skull, which screams, and falls over. That, I think is what's under the masks. th-cam.com/video/NJIjNs_s2NI/w-d-xo.html
@@thewhoview th-cam.com/video/NJIjNs_s2NI/w-d-xo.html This is what I feel is under the helmets/masks. The second prototype in the clip. Though I COULD see something like this happening on Mondas, when the Mondasians began their cybernetic program.
Admittedly the logos work for the series 2 cybusmen because they’re made by a company (which ties into the fact that they’re trying to send a different message to the originals)
Anyone else noticed that the Cybermen get a new weakness every time they appear until the 1980s? In Tenth Planet it's radiation. In the Moonbase it's gravity. In Tomb, the cold (and electricity). In Wheel, the X Ray laser. In Invasion, emotion. In Revenge, gold. When they turn up in Earthshock and they are STILL weak to gold, that's the first time ANY Dr Who story treated them with consistency.
@@marquisofcarrabass All very true, although their weakness in the moonbase one could argue is Polly's acetone cocktail. But you could look at the cybermen advancing and upgrading more of themselves, removing more of their own organic components to become more immune to stuff like radiation. That's what I go with. 😉
I was 6 when Invasion was broadcast. I found the sewer scenes utterly terrifying. Interesting point about the callbacks in Attack of the Cybermen: at the time of broadcast (1985), not only were most of the earlier Cybermen stories not available on VHS, many had not even been novelised yet. Tomb of the Cybermen - to which Attack was a direct sequel - had been novelised, but the actual episodes were thought to be lost, as they wouldn't turn up for another six years. So for many, their knowledge of Cybermen lore was limited to what they could remember or else what they'd read in Lofficier's episode guide! My favourite Cyberman story is probably Tomb, but my favourite design is undoubtedly Tenth Planet. I especially like that they had human hands. If it had been up to me, I would have made it unmissably clear that although their hands were human, their arms were artificial, consisting of rods and cables that you can actually see through.
@@paulbeardsley4095 I imagine that would of been quite the experience seeing the invasion for the first time.😁 The tenth planet mondassian Cybermen are so nightmarish, I love them. 😊
I think the Tenth Planet ones had the best lines too. They weren't conquering monsters, they just wanted to survive, and have stripped themselves of all their humanity in pursuit of that. "Our brains are just like yours except that certain weaknesses have been removed. You call them emotions, do you not?" "Care? No, why should I care? There are people all over your planet dying and you do not care about them" Way better than the ludicrous Cybusmen going delete delete.
Saw something recently saying that one of the reasons the Cybermen were effective in the 60s was that the main cast were short and they cast tall actors as cybermen to accentuate their size. B&W definitely help them as well. _Revenge of the Cybermen_ is a fave of mine too. There's something about it that gives it a charm that makes it eminently rewatchable.. It's overshadowed by some greats.
@@timothybarnett1006 revenge is so much fun. I know in relation to the cybermen in the 60s, that they chose taller actors to play them to make them more imposing, don't know though if they would always chose smaller actors for the other roles though. 😄
15:25 The Cybermen inherited the traits of their hosts. And the Cybermen were survivors of the Cyberwar, and possibly adopted emotion since total logic did not work all those other times before hand.
I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. Although I feel it's a shame that the Third Doctor never encountered the Cybermen during his era. They would have made superb villains for Season 7, imo. Tomb is my favourite sixties Cybermen story.
@@ulsteredz Tomb of the Cybermen is such an awesome story; I mean, just the cliffhanger for episode 2 alone is arguably one of the greatest in the show. Like you, I do think it was a missed opportunity to not have Pertwee face the cybermen. I could totally see that type of story fitting in very well for season 8 or, like you suggested, season 7, which happens to be my favourite season of all of Doctor Who. 😁 The closest we came to that was when the Master hooked the doctor up to the Keller machine in the mind of evil, and it tried to kill him with the doctor's own fears.
@@andrewholliday251 Terrance didn't actually want to put the cybermen in the five doctors that was insisted upon by Eric Seward. He had no idea where to put them in the story so wrote that scene with the third doctor & Sarah watching them get massacred by the raston robot.
It wasn’t much, but he did finally meet them in the Death Zone. The Cyber-massacre was spectacular, though. Would have liked a team-up between Six & Two for ATTACK, instead of THE TWO DOCTORS. Since ATTACK was a sequel to TOMB; also have ATTACK be a three-parter.
For me, the moon-base is the archetypal Cyberman story, it may not have the mythology of "tomb" but it is self-contained exciting and introduces a lot of features that are re-used in later Cybermen stories. The C-men look fantastic in it as well, with the black and white really giving it a great atmosphere. In the modern era, the 2 parter Age of Steele and rise of the cybermen are immaculate re imagining but the following stories are disappointing. It is a real shame that the novel "Plague of the Cybermen" is unlikely to ever appear on screen as it moves along at a cracking pace and does a great job of combining Dr Who and Horror in the tradition of Talons of Weng Chiang and Pyramids of Mars
The Invasion, Tomb and tenth planet were cracking serials especially the invasion imo. These stories had menace and stakes. The only other time the Cybermen were used to good effect was Earthshock. Nu who did them dirty reducing them to shouty stompy tin soldiers in most of their appearances.
@@wyrdwik4610 literally the best cybermen stories ever. 😊 With the exception of world enough & time / the doctor falls which is superb the cybermen in modern Who were basically robots. 🤖
I find The Invasion more and more impressive - 8 episodes that don't flag; not many 6 parters managed that. And (on broadcast) 4 weeks to see the monster! With a story title that didn't give it away! Unbelievable!
I absolutely agree, the '60s was the pinnacle era for the Cybermen. They were at their most effective in every way and all the stories from that era (except Wheel in Space) are solidly cemented among my all-time favourites from the show
I had never really thought about this, but I think I always knew it at my core. Although I will say, that the half converted Cyberman, from the Jodi era added an effective humanity, but not as great as that Capaldi series mentioned with Bill Potts. I think that has to be my favorite story. Doctor Who was super dark and sad under Moffat / Capaldi, from the death of Clara, to the conversion of Bill Potts. I
@@DoctorWhoNose I wished they made ashad more tragic. I would of loved something with the whole partial conversion, like him being overwhelmed by his emotions. 😀
Earthshock for me is the best Cyberman appearance, it has some great action scenes and ties the episodes together - Though I think Beryl Reid was a miscast. Tomb of the Cybermen next as it has some real eerie moments with the archaeological elements. New Who's introduction was good but i think like all the recurring villains they got toned down with each episode subsequently.
@@Biggles_James You can't go wrong with Earthshock. Invasion & tomb are my favs 😍 & I totally agree with you there in regards to modern Who. Although they did make an excellent comeback in world enough and time / the doctor falls, which is my favourite modern Who cyberman story. 😊
All 60's episodes are great. I like the Wheel in space especially as it provides the unknown , with a gradual build up. The modern people have not got any patience to wait to find out or theorise what may be going to happen. Their attention span is also short. Its more about strategy, rather than gimmicks, Special Effects that have now become two a penny - but really costly to make.
You are absolutely right 60s Cybermen are the best. You mention the racist tropes of “Tomb” which are true and uncomfortable from a decent modern perspective. However it I would say Toberman (played by the late great Roy Stewart, Live and Let Die and many other great roles), was the hero of the story. He doesn’t say much but puts on a brilliant performance and steals the show. My favourite is Earthshock. Probably because I grew up with 80s Who and just feel that story had all the great scenes and shock moments. I also like how they keep the human aspect through the glass jaw and more emotion which contrary to how they are supposed to be, shows that they are human beings struggling to become robots and suggests that that is just not possible. I also like how whilst the Daleks are supposed to be representations of Nazis and fascism, the Cybermen are extremes of Communism. I agree though 60s Cybermen fitted the times so well, especially considering the Vietnam War and how the US was desperate to break down communism in Europe and Asia, the advancement of computer technology in the 60s. I can well imagine how that would have played into the fear of young minds in that decade. Also when you consider the happy, flower power hippy culture the idea of monster, replacing their organs and becoming so robotic must have been truly terrifying.
@@floydian2007 Earthshock is a terrific story, you have great taste. Watching these stories as a kid for the first time definitely leaves a lasting impression on you. You can absolutely see the allegorical messaging about fascism especially in the invasion, playing on the fears at the time & it works so well.
As an 8 year old in 1966 I clearly remember watching the Tenth Planet every Saturday after tea at my friend's house and being absolutely traumatised by the Mondas (walking corpse) Cybermen...still the creepiest version of this classic monster
Here in Australia these stories were repeated numerous times - I remember watching new episodes of Wheel in Space/Evil of the Daleks (2nd time around) on weekends while repeats of Tenth Planet were on Mon-Thursday. As a (very) young child seeing both versions of cybermen at the same time took some self-explaining.....! I also clearly remember (in support of this post) that what was scary about them was that they were people converted (the great 1960s designs helped a fair bit too!) - not silver robots.
“Earthshock” is basically a compilation cyberstory… every plot element in it was from something that preceded it… base under siege, destroy earth, gold is a weakness, humans unwittingly helping them, etc. They were the favorite villain of then script editor Eric Saward.
Earthshock Cybermen was my favourite and still are though that maybe due used be a Cyberman/leader in Blackpool, and various Who Conventions as well as Silver Nemesis
@@StephenStumbke-p8y Troughton is fantastic & the Cybermen are so scary. It's such an awesome story & the perfect story to recommend to someone who wants an introduction into 60's Who. 😊
I can understand why people's kneejerk ration is to think Toberman is some sort of racist depiction. The first thing to lead you down this path is how he speaks. I remember reading that originally he was supposed to be deaf and with a visible hearing aid, this was to both mirror how the Cybermen came to be, and to foreshadow his eventual partial conversion. I've no idea why this was dropped but the sort of deaf person's voice was retained. I suppose because Roy Stewart being a part time actor it might have helped hide a possible slightly clunky delivery. Still it's catnip for a modern Western audience on the lookout for racism everywhere. Secondly people latch on to the servant thing. He's a paid servant not a slave (Kaftan can't really say he's my hired muscle for when we turn on you). In terms of his participation in this story, he manages to fight off partial Cyber conversion and ultimately sacrifices himself to avenge Kaftan's murder and save the rest of the group. He's one of the heroes of the story, not exactly a classic racist portrayal. Finally, let's look at the writers. In their previous Cyberman story they also have a Black character. This person happens to be both an astronaut and obviously the mission commander. This was made at a time when racial segregation was still in effect in some parts of the USA. Ultimately, when seen in context I just had a real problem making out that the people making this programme were a bit racist. I know its really trendy these days but I don't think it's true.
I actually liked the Cybermen from the serial Revenge Of The Cybermen. I liked that they had their guns built into their hairdryers on top of their heads.
I think the 60s Cybermen work so well because of Kit Peddler. He either co-wrote or provided ideas for all those stories. He was a scientist and heavily inspired by prosthetics and the gory fear mongering about it that was very present in the 1960s. By 1975, Gerry Davis forgot all that, and things went downhill from there.
100% agree. Those 1960's cybermen are always great. Always good to see Tobias Vaughn and PACKER!!! getting a shout out. I do also enjoy the 80's Cyber Leader and his witty banter.
Very well thought through! you even convinced me the newer versions of the Cybermen are not completely bad. Though indeed the Delete catchphrase is just silly. I think the thing I like most about them is where, though they're not supposed to have emotions, that their hatred of the Doctor seems to overwhelm them enough to even make them angry. At least, the leaders. I forget which episode it is, maybe Earthshock? but where the leader states 'We will crush them', You feel that hatred in the word 'crush'. The worst thing? They're a joke in the new versions, so weak compared to the Daleks. I admit not seeing anything beyond the Missy reveal so I can't comment after that.
@@khaossilva7475 From revenge of the cybermen onwards the cybermen are definitely more emotional. I'm sure there's an in universe reason for that especially for revenge. 😆
What made the Tenth Planet Cybermen even more scary was the fact that they were not really evil. They didn't think about conquest or killing just for the sake of killing. They were driven purely by a logical goal of surviving. You could not reason with them unless you had a 100% logical point to make. As the Cyberman in that story said "Why should I care? People are dying all over, yet you do not care about them", and the characters couldn't counter that arguement. This is actually something the 5th Doctor took note of when he encountered the mondasians again in "Spare Parts". In that story he was able to have an almost civil coversation with the Cybermen because he knew how to say things that made sense from their perspective.
It's their army boots that lace up......... Seriously now the only Dr who worth watching are William Hartnell , Patrick troughton , and possibly Jon pertwee, and yes I saw them first time around
I felt from Tom Bakers Revenge of the Cybermen they always looked second class to the Daleks from then on and not their equals. I have become indifferent to the current versions much like every thing else in Current Doctor Who
When I was in London I happened on the steps near St Paul's where that iconic scene from Invasion was shot. Was later reminded of that when it was re-used in Dark Water. I loved tomb and Invasion. In non-60s cybermen I enjoyed Revenge and Earthshock. Although, Earthshock was probably more memorable due to the poignant end credits.
@@taliesinllanfair4338 that would of been really cool to visit such an iconic location. 😁 I have a lot of fun with revenge of the Cybermen & of course earthshock is brilliant. You have good taste my friend. 👌😊
A friend of mine thought that the Cybermen had a very high "creep" factor because their faces reminded him of clown faces. PS: I loathe the rebooted Cybermen. The only thing I hated more as far as reboots went were the pregnant Lego Daleks.
Laddie, your voice track is movie-quality. In the sense that I can't hear anything without turning computer volume to the max. And then intro music etc. blow out my eardrums.
@@Azzameen99AZ sorry I had problems with the video. I had to record it twice because my mic died so as a result you have different portions at different volumes, it's all over the place.
If you like the Tenth Planet Cybermen, you really need to listen to the Big Finish story Space Parts. It's one of their best - it gves a backstory to Tenth Planet and is set on Mondas, in the last remaining city on a dying world where there's a plan on how to survive and a black market in body parts....
@@adrianace1725 They were literally the most effective the cybermen have ever been, because the writers really understood them. Always restless, impressively imposing, and 100% creepy. "You belong to us. You shall be like us." 🤖
a) In the 60's they addressed a very real ongoing discussion about replacing yourself with artificial appendages which people were afraid of (hello progress) and b) they were treated seriously and not like a cartoon. The Davies Era Cybermen had a catchphrase (DELETE) which made them childish, their design was not threatening at all (felt like a toy... which I think is the point) and then they had some very bad stories or stories where they were jobbed or part of other groups of monsters which dropped their lustre a bit. Nightmare in Silver tried to do better things with them but wasn't a great story so that failed. They were however really good in the Capaldi finish except they did one last story after it which was appalling and therefore stole it's thunder. I didn't see them during Jodie to be honest as I'd stopped watching and I've never wasted my time catching up but I saw there were Gallifreyan Cybermen and they looked so goofy...
@@JeremiahEcks777 yeah the cyber-masters in the Whittaker era were in my opinion, really bad. Capaldi's series 10 finale World enough & time / the doctor falls is the best modern Who Cybermen story. I don't mind the RTD Cybermen, its a different version of the Cybermen that aren't from our universe, but their catchphrase you can never take seriously. Let's just agree that the Cybermen are better in classic Who.
@@thewhoview I agree that the Capaldi story is their best use in 'modern' Who. The Davies one was silly because of the catchphrase. I used to get annoyed by a fellow Whovian of my acquaintance who used to follow me around saying it just to get a rise. That it's annoying and doesn't warm the cockles of my heart (like a good old fashioned "exterminate") says it all! "You will be like US" is scarier anyway.
@@thewhoview I think 'to sell toys' really springs to mind when thinking about RTD's Cybermen. He loved the audio Spare Parts and you definitely see him and his team trying to capture that precise theme but not quite understanding what makes the Cybermen work. You see it with Yvonne - there's the horror at the saws but the horror of the Cybermen isn't that you get chopped up to become a big Dalek-esque catchphrase tank. The horror of the Cybermen is that they still have "human" parts! Hands in the Tenth Planet, mouths in the 80's etc. They are identifiable as humanoids. That's why the Doctor Falls got them right. Because we see firmly that these monsters can be like US if we choose to reject emotion and compassion. If we did those things we wouldn't march like Zombies but we would become horrible, immoral monsters.
I agree I think the cybermen peaked in the 60s and while earthshock was phenomenal and attack of the cybermen was great. The 70s and 80s overall weren't consistently as good as the 60s when it comes to cybermen stories. When it comes to new who the cybermen are a joke that are disrespected by being a subservient and or a secondary antagonist to someone like the master or the daleks. In doomsday something like 50+ cybermen all focus firing on dalek sec and they couldn't even break through his shields, their guns might as well be shooting nerf bullets. Even when they're battling the daleks on the streets the cybermen can't even damage 1 dalek or couldn't even break through the shields of 1 dalek. Also for beings that act on pure logic and lack all emotional thinking they sure are stupid to keep attacking the daleks when their weapons are useless against them. instead of idk forfeiting the battle and retreating because they have absolutely no chance at winning. They just continue to foolishly fight the daleks despite the fact they're useless in a fight against them. The cybermen are completely incompetent in that story. Doomsday is a good dalek story but it just completely disrespects the cybermen. It was not a good outing for the cybermen at all. The cybermen in new who never had the impact that they had in classic who with the only exceptions being the masterpiece that is the world enough in time/the doctor falls and also age of steel/rise of the Cybermen was pretty good as well. However overall The cybermen just don't work in new who. The writers just can't get them right for some reason. I hope that some day the cybermen will come back with a real bang and consistently have good episodes for them. But until then I can just re-watch classic doctor who when I want to experience the greatness of the cybermen again.
@@mayojar5264 Really great assessment. The Cybermen have just never been fully realised in modern Who with the exception of rise of the Cybermen / age of steel & World enough & time/ the doctor falls. I think army of ghost is good but you're right the Cybermen are completely let down in doomsday.
The Wheel in Space could not see the Cybermen use their fleet to take out the Wheel. They need to capture the Wheel by stealth for the plan to work. A lot of the Cyberman stories had them rely on stealth due to low numbers or other factors. Otherwise, great video, totally spot on in its ideas.
@@tbb4023 I don't remember if the story specifically stated how many cybermen they have in their fleet. The Cybermen's plan requires too many outside variables in order for their plan to work. I still think there could have been a much easier way for the cybermen to attack the wheel, but hey, maybe their invasion fleet was very small and, like you say, stealth could have been their best option. A lot of fans are very hard on this story; I do agree that the pacing is the one thing that hurts it, making it a bit of a drag, and the telesnap reconstruction doesn't help, but I wouldn't say it's terrible or even a bad story. If it were found or animated, I'm sure it would have a bit more appreciation. BTW I'm glad you enjoyed the video. 😉👍
@@thewhoview You are completely right about them probably being able to implement a more streamlined plan with a greater chance of working smoothly. The Cybermen in real life would not be working to a short deadline and needing to fill six episodes. lol. That said, I just need enough to let it not hit me in the face so the willing suspension of disbelief still works. The fleet would not have to be very small but they are definitely a lot less numerous than humans and in multiple stories, probably Revenge of the Cyberman but maybe Attack of the Cybermen and others, they are smaller in number, if at only certain points in their history. Almost all of the Cyberman stories have them infiltrating and building up and having to overcome a lot of people before an overt conflict. It is possible the humans could cut whatever signal they need or otherwise defeat the whole point of taking the wheel. The attack on the wheel would be bound to be detected in any event. That would allow planning time, co-ordination time, and the ability to muster forces. You might gamble on individual cyberman being able to take out 10 human soldiers each, at least briefly with surprise, before mass conversions worked in their favour. You probably could not count on each cybership taking out 10 ships in the Earth fleet without surprise. Anyway, objectively it is definitely too convoluted a plan, and I have never given it this kind of thought so this is fun, but I could rationalize it long enough to enjoy it and wish it were not lost. Keep up the good work.
My favorite Cybermen story is Big Finish's Warzone, a story with the 5th doctor, Tegan, Nyssa and their new comapnion Marc. It's horrifically brutal and one of the most harrowing stories I've ever experienced. It's incredible.
@@3rd_Doctorglad you enjoyed the video. I have never gotten a strike just a lot of copyright claims, which are so annoying because the video is fair use. If you use as little video clips as possible it helps a lot. That's why I use photos mainly.
@@djm-3995 doctor who & the Silurians, inferno, deadly assassin, genesis of the Daleks, caves of androzani, the ark, the war machines, tomb of the cybermen, the invasion, the Dalek invasion of earth, fury from the deep (not the animation), frontier in space, mind of evil, stones of blood, curse of fenric. Those of some of my favourites. Season 7 (classic) is my all time favourite season.
@@thewhoview A lot of those are my favourites too. Some of mine are The Reign of Terror, The Time Meddler, The Moonbase, The Daemons, Death to the Daleks, Horror of Fang Rock, Earthshock, Five Doctors, Revelation of the Daleks, Remembrance, and Ghost Light❤️
I didn't see the 60's Cybermen when originally broadcast cos I wasn't even born then but I think the 60's Cybermen were just so much more creepy and threatening. The Cybermen from more recent times are just clunky steampunk robots.
@@hopebgood totally agree! I wasn't born when classic Who was originally broadcast, but that doesn't mean you had to be alive when they originally aired to enjoy & appreciate them. 😄
I like the way no-one actually tells us what’s the problem with the depiction of Toberman. Just make the necessary social justice noises to make sure we all know you’re a good person and leave it at that.
To some extent, in the 2020s there's LESS problems with Toberman/Kaftan now than there was in 1967 - although this is rarely acknowledged. This is because in 1967 those parts were typical racist stereotypes of the era - and thus reinforced those prejudices. But for a 21st century DW fan who doesn't spend their time watching every other 1960s TV series - they're no longer racist stereotypes because they're the only examples they have!. Instead they're just corny villains and servants. This has the ironic implication that modern viewers who diss the characters (now) are actually revealing their own unresolved hang-ups. A viewer new to the story, and without cultural context re when it was first broadcast won't see the racism. The context isn't there. The problematic story isn't Tomb, it's Talons of Weng-Chiang casting a caucasian as Chinese. This was pretty off when it happened in 1977. Holmes/Hinchcliffe's excuse was that they were riffing on 19th century penny-dreadful tropes (Namely Fu Manchu - always played by caucasians in makeup) but it was a lousy excuse then and it's only gotten worse with time.
I want the Toberman back, he should turn up in a new series, exactly the same, and treated exactly the same, but with no explanation. Return of the Toberman.
Sick of that crap. People apologising for the past every time something ‘controversial’ from decades ago is shown. He was a black slave. So what? He got to be the real hero of the piece - that’s a positive. It never bothered me, neither did his silent strong man from TERROR OF THE AUTONS.
When the surviving WHO was marketed to American PBS, in my region in 1985-'86, broadcast in movie format (like 17 Hartnell, and 5 Troughton),....there were no Cybermen episodes in the package. Only the clip of the trail in The War Games, of the enemies The Doctor fought. Three Dalek stories, one Ice Warriors. We had the Target novels, and DWM to see photos. Then the Cybermen stories vs' 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th. When "tomb" was released on video in '92-'3 -wonderful! The JN-T arranged "Years" videos, like the Cyberman one with surviving "Moonbase" and "Wheel" and the six "Invasion" linked by Nic Courtney on VHS....When the fan recon's, and how to obtain them, one of the first I wanted was "Tenth Planet". And the audio's on CD. We now have all offical Cyber' stories, with animation or episodes, except for the "Wheel" We are sooooo fortunate, all the efforts to find, restore, remake, and let fans experience.
@@jonathanmurphy3141 I'm getting more viewers from America telling me their first exposure to classic Who. It's amazing to hear people's stories. we are definitely very blessed now. I love the fact that so much of missing who has now been animated, which is a great way for people to experience those stories for the first time. Really awesome to hear about you watching doctor who on PBS. 😊
I used to enjoy thinking that inside the cybermen was an emulsified mayonnaise. That is they took people and emulsified them into a mayonnaise and that is what ran the cybermen.
Story and character arcs aside, a child of the 1960s I always felt black and white film was more effective than the oversharp video of later eras. It leant an air of distance and mystery - and obviously it covered over production imperfections better. In recent eras, they made the cybermen too like one-dimensional, invulnerable stormtroopers for my tastes, but it must have been hard to keep Doctor Who baddies fresh - particularly the Daleks.
@@Nigelrudyardmusic That's the great thing about it being in B&W, it masks those mistakes really well. 😉👌 The cybermen beyond the sixties have some stories that are enjoyable, but the Cybermen's actual portrayal are in my opinion all over the place.
@@thewhoview Absolutely. I loved the Hartnell and early Troughton years for that. In recent years, the 'Terminator' seems to have left its fingerprints all over the writing for the Cybermen.
@@aqacefan I agree; it was a cool idea but I don't think it would have made a difference if he was played by someone else. I just wish the cyber controller looked like he did in the tomb of the cybermen. That would have been amazing! 😍
Completely agree 60's Cybermen were amazing - I was not around in the 60's but I remember Tomb of the Cybermen being discovered in 1992 and seeing it for the first time. Earthshock is the only good Cyber story after 1969 IMO. Also you missed the cameo in Carnival of Monsters.. best appearance of the 70s !
@@ritchwaghorn6541 Yes they had a brief appearance in the war games, the mind of evil, & the carnival of monsters. But those were really just 2 second blink & you'll miss it cameos, so I felt that it didn't justify me needing to mention them as they don't really contribute to the plot. 😉
@@yousoufkirkwood6289 It still is very much scary. The idea that they were like us & want to make you like them makes the cybermen as a whole so effect. 😊
I was always a fan of the Cybermen, never keen on the Daleks, The Tomb of the Cybermen is my all time favourite Doctor Who story, though i would've love to see the very first Cybermen in a couple of more stories.
I don't hate the Cybus Cybermen, it really captures the body horror aspect, to my mind. These are not just robots, but they aren't just suits you put on, either. You have to be cut up and put on life support to pilot these things. You cannot put on a cyber boot, there are metal struts, linkages, hydraulic lines, and power and data cables filling the entire leg.
I mainly say this because of that one horrendous scene where thy put on cyber armour as a disguise. Where was your toolbox? Where was the montage with the A-team music showing you ripping out a human-sized computer system just to be able to fit inside? You're telling me that in under an hour you got three people into complex life support system where no biological matter is intended to exist below the chest?
@@dafoex I don't hate them in their first 2 stories, they work. They are different type of cybermen, like the 12th doctor says: Where There's people there's cybermen. Those first 2 stories still had elements of body horror, but after that they kinda forgot that the were people & the cybermen were reduced to stomping robots.
Off topic, but the topics been covered. What I want to see, or wanted to see before they destroyed the series, is a return of the Dominators and Quarks, suitably upgraded, more deadly and floating now.
@@onastick2411 If it's Doctor Who related, it's never off topic. 😄 A reimagining of the Quarks would have definitely been cool to see. If you like the Quarks they have just appeared in a new big finish fourth doctor audio with Harry Sullivan. I have no idea what it's like, though.
I grew up in the 60s when the Cybermen were scary especially in black 'n' white. The current versions look more like something that Disney would have dreamt up so as not to scare the children.
@thewhoview have you listened to The Great Cyber War from Big Finish? Its in the Audacity box set. Its the Cyber story I never thought we needed. and gives a lot of info regarding the Revenge Cybermen. Plus makes them make way more sense
@@BlindTimeLord no I haven't. I love McGann, but when it come to big finish, because they release so much new stuff it's hard to keep up with it so I cherry pick what I'm interested in. But from what you've described it sounds very interesting, might have to get it.
I have watched sixties Doctor Who out of order, thanks to library dvds, and Tomb was my introduction to them, so that's always been my favorite. Need to see the Wheel plotline, don't know if it's at the library. And yes, I have not really seen old Who in order, but the low budget feel just seems more appropriate than some of the current stuff. Just mem
@@jamesomeara2329 I originally watched a lot of classic who out of order, saw them as the DVDs were released. You should be able to check out the wheel in space online. I watched it on dailymotion, it's a photo reconstruction on all episodes except for 3 & 6 because those exist.
@@thewhoview Yes, agreed... It did give that impression of something that was ' different ', and yet compelling to watch, bandages and all...! ... Sadly, I think that this modern ' Robocop ' style, is a real cop-out, and just going for a predictable design, which most younger viewers would understand... To me, as a 68 year old ( who remembers the first ever episode of Dr Who, the day after the Kennedy shooting ) and the repeat, a week later.... I am convinced that the early designs were the best, especially the original Tardis interior... Classic 1960's Science Fiction....
The problem is that after the 60s they deviated from the original concept. The Cybermen are supposed to be something grotesque that used to be human but now is a walking horror. A person that received multiple surgeries to build those systems (imagine lots of tubes and devices to keep you alive). In the 70s and 80s the Cybermen began acting like guys in spacesuits talking normally and everything. In the modern show they are just robots. The blunder in the classic series was to portray them as a conquering race when the Cybermen work better when they are just trying to survive.
@@tenshiigarashi4063 Rise of the cybermen/ age of steel had some good stuff in it. Defeating the cybermen with their emotional inhibitor. But by far the best modern Who story that showcases the body horror elements of the cybermen is world enough & time. The Cybermen were created out of people's desperation for survival.
Agree about the 60's cybermen. They had a clear and consistent threat. I hated the 70's and 80's cybermen. They were just silly villains with way too much emotion. In the new series there have been mixed results, but at least they brought back their emotionless simple desire to convert rather than conquer. The Capaldi era I think really got them right as did the Whitaker era.
Yeah, although I think the Earthshock cybermen were great. The costumes are terrific and they were kept a total surprise after being absent for many years. Never forget that ending where it pans to two cybermen saying "Destroy them. Destroy them at once" - totally unexpected, and kept completely under wraps. Not a hint of them anywhere. Unfortunately it was downhill from there - they got overused and were awful in Silver Nemesis (literally exploding on contact with gold). Although the scene where Lytton is shown partially converted in Attack of the Cybermen is very effective indeed. And brutal.
@@TheBlackcredo Earthshock does a terrific job with the redesign of the cybermen's costume, still showing the remnants of what they were, but they were portrayed more emotional, you're right. World enough & time/ the doctor falls is probably the best the Cybermen have been in modern Who.
@@thewhoview It's awful. The established canon was that gold plated their breathing apparatus. Here we got them exploding on contact with it - how can anyone be scared of Cybermen whoi can be destroyed by a gold-tipped arrow or a gold coin from a catapult? Absolutely stupid beyond words. They were pretty bad in The Five Doctors too...they were just portrayed as being terminally stupid.
I really hated all the metallic stamping of the new Cybermen. It emphasised how robotic the new ones are. The older ones , with their weird sibilant voices are much more alien and frightening, with that element of body horror lacking in the new ones.
One of the biggest scares in The Invasion is that the cybermen - when not attacking - are totally still and silent - to the point you jump when they turn up. The RTD ones can be heard 10 miles away. For some reason they clunk even when walking on carpet.....
I loved Silver Nemesis maybe because I saw this as a 13 year old really enjoying dr who again and disappointed in its time slot as it should have been better received (season 25 and 26)
I rather liked the Cybermen throughout entirety of the classic show, there was a progression in the design, essentially becoming more and more technological. In my opinion though they really buggered them up in Nu-Who (as with so many other things), and I don't think they've ever actually explained where the Cybus Cybermen went, or why our universe's Cybermen now look like them.
@@Jamie_E_Pritchard definitely agree with you there, advancing & upgrading each time in classic Who. There's some plot holes in modern Who with the Cybermen, It's the same thing with the Daleks in modern who, after victory of the Daleks they would just show up without explanation.
@@thewhoview I'm afraid this is part of the malaise of modern writing (or rather modern writers). They've become far too comfortable with not opening mystery boxes or bothering to tie up loose ends. Or (perhaps even worse in my eyes) hand-waving Deus ex Machina resolutions without any build up or logic after writing themselves into corner. Something which RTD is notorious for. Unless there is an insertion of something for the sake of the series story arc there's seemingly very little effort to take the history, lore, and prior events into account and how they may effect the current story. Of course now with RTD's return Who is transforming from a science fiction show to a science fantasy show, with emphasis on the fantasy, and when you're dealing with what is essentially magic no explanation for anything needs to be given. Just how he likes it...
Wow! Some memories. A bit vague at times lol. I remember Mi Mam taking me to the pictures to see the first film and hiding behind the settee when the Cybermen or Daleks came on. Got the first ever Dr Who Album upstairs Stopped watching it after never missing an episode for so many years when it went stupidly woke, The Dr became female and it became woke preaching. It had been bad enough when the scary Master became the loony, not at all scary, Missy. (Why wasn't she called The Mistress!!)?? The Master, The Mistress?? Missy was such a childish sort of name. Something you call a naughty daughter lol.
@@stephenclaridge1896 To be honest with you apart from destiny of the Daleks where the story thinks they're robots, I would say the Daleks are always a strong antagonist for all of classic Who. There's definitely an argument to be had with which decade are the best for the Daleks.
@@cyrusq5999Flying daleks have been around since Remembrance though. They make it look better than the Cybermen too since they’re more like tiny battleships than anything.
@@idle_speculation They've been around since the comics - I think REVELATION was the first time they were seen flying. Originally, the one Orcini blew away was supposed to be launched into the air by the SFX team, to give the appearance of flight. Later on, Davros was revealed he could also fly - or rather hover - in his chair.
It's funny but for me, the best Cybermen will always be those from the (much maligned) Revenge Of The Cybermen. Do very much appreciate Tomb, though - cracking entertaining!
@@lenlooksback7981 I have a lot of fun with revenge of the cybermen, maybe because it was one of the early fourth doctor stories I saw. I love it despite it's obvious flaws & plot holes. but I can't deny the fact that it's not the greatest portrayal of the cybermen. 😆
@@thewhoview Well, I've never understood this impression, myself. What's so wrong with them being more emotional/bombastic? It's Cybermen at their most desperate and dangerous.
@@thewhoview Do believe they're still THE VERY LAST Cybermen, in all cannon, so, I think it can easily be argued they'd begun to revert back to having more human traits, in order to adapt/survive. Whatever the case, I absolutely LOVE the Revenge Cybermen.
The reason the original Cybermen were so successful was that plastic surgery was in it's infancy. They tapped into the fear and doubts of what surgeons were beginning to do with the human body.
One of the things cybermen in DW are famous for is that almost all their stories are lousy - for every Invasion there's a Revenge, Silver Nemesis, or any 21st century takes (excepting Capaldi's two parter). And yet they remain popular - despite that. Imagine what a good cyberman story - one that actually played with the cyber concept as part of the story - would do for them! The mind boggles....(add a modern budget take on the Moonbase/Tomb era design and there'd be no stopping them) Here's a suggestion - try treating them as amoral rather than immoral villains...how about visiting a planet with human colonists having to deal with cybermen agressors....only to discover the cybermen were there first. These cybermen aren't designed for invasion; instead, they're settler/colonists themselves - and designed accordingly - not for offence capacity - and for that reason their 'breathing' is susceptible to gold dust (while soldier cybermen (1960s style) are immune), as they don't need to defend themselves from attack, they weren't put together that way. Humans invent a glitter gun and wipe out the cybemen, thereby starting the cyber wars. This provides a logical rationale for their ongoing obsession with wiping out/absorbing humans (it's a logical solution to the problem they pose) - as well as for how easy they later became to knock off.. If you really want to drill down into the morality play aspects of DW - a visiting Doctor could help develop (in ignorance/prejudice) the glitter gun, before leaving. So he didn't create the cybermen - but he was pivotal in them becoming villains re human interaction. Too much?
@@andrewholliday251 it's definitely interesting, the one thing with the cybermen especially in modern Who is that the writer's really don't understand how to properly utilise them.
They started looking like robots in THE INVASION, imo. EARTHSHOCK and ATTACK OF THE CYBERMEN did their best to remind viewers that these things were more than just machines. The 1980s Cybermen would do a lot of onscreen bleeding in the action sequences - like their 1960s counterparts.
It's a shame that you can't recreate the shot of the Cybermen coming down the steps anymore, due to someone deciding to bolt the north end of the Millennium Bridge to them!!!! Clearly whoever came up with that idea wasn't a Doctor Who fan!
because they were techno mummies who used to be human, who still think they are alive nu who they had no dialogue and just stomped about and did almost nothing
I wish the Tomb era Cybermen would make a comeback. They already proved the Tenth Planet ones still work with minimal adjustments.
I like the way they talk in that really weird sing-songy voice in The Tenth Planet.
Tomb era cyber design with a modern budget would be fantastic.
@@andrewholliday251 OMG yes please 😁
They brought it back pretty well in The World And Enough Time
You're absolutely correct. Not a fan of current Cybermen, they're just skeletons in metal suits. They've lost all trace of their humanity.
The parallel earth ones converted by removing the brain, normally... but they also encased full bodies for quicker conversions seen via torchwood's cyber woman.
The cybus legion being our universe variants are seen to convert full bodies in Closing time. They also use human parts to repair their own.
The latest Warrior's are said in the episode to be full of human remains. (Ashad wanted to remove the parts but it was only for the specific Squadrons)
Evan the mondasian revamp are full bodies still.
The only ones to not follow this and remove it all as part of their design and just keep the skeleton are the nightmare in silver style.
Its self explanatory that they need more armor as time progresses. They were at constant war with humanoids. They managed to fight back the Cybermen and the Cybermen would evolve to overcome and eliminate weakness. They have to defend themselves.
Got to remember too this is a all ages show. Look at concept art over the years. Super creepy stuff. But thats the problem its "too scary" for kids n such. Sadly we have massive limitations but its enough to let the imagination do the rest of the work.
'Lost all trace of their humanity' is kind of the point.
@@marquisofcarrabassyeah like that’s the point like I agree the fact of cybermen talking and having normal conversations is hilarious it’s just them being devoid of human life is the point
I feel this description is inaccurate because it's more so like flesh behind metal. The best designs for me the mondasians and cybusmen were more like metal around bone or decaying flesh.
They had a wrap around quality that makes the idea of being inside one haunting. The rest are more rounded, cylinder or sphere like in design around their heads, making them clearly helmets which just go around the head.
The cloth around the face, tubes with probable liquids, medical like equipment on their bodies made it seem like a medical experiment that went on and on to house a dead but functioning corpse. While the cybus men seemed more like to replace the flesh, the sharp edges of the cheeks and chin built more so to cover nerves or the skull.
I loved the Tenth Planet cybermen. Of all the versions, they looked the most like their concept: human beings who had had their body parts extensively replaced by machinery. Ironically, the small budget lead to what I think is the most effective costume design: these Cybermen still have what are recognisably human parts (such as their hands) and have a bulky life-support system. They're not designed as war machines, as th elater variants were. The cloth face immediately makes the viewer imagine what might be underneath it. The voices are eerie and recognisably human, yet inhuman: they are exactly what you'd expect, synthesised and mad efrom pre-existing human speech, so you get the strange intonations: not quite machine, not quite human either. The later ones tended to be much more like robots.
Totally agree.
Definitely the creepiest Cybermen. A lot of thought went into their design, even the large lamp-like unit on their heads that is connected by conduits to where the ears should be. That's actually a parabolic dish microphone, which was how they could hear.
The problem with the newer cybermen is they just feel like Iron Man robot suits, you forget theres an actual person in there
@@Clone683 you're absolutely right, they're more robotic & less organic. 🤖☹️
Nobody seems to have mentioned that classic story, about the Cybermen attacking the Moonbase.... Very well made ( considering how long ago, and of course, the famous BBC Budget limitations ).... I agree with all comments, the first Cybermen were the most scary and impressive... As a kid, it always scared me, when they spoke, the mouths opened, but did not open and close according to the words spoken...?.... Always loved the wide lens Woolworths torch up on their heads !... Totally agree, the modern versions are just like Robocop... The old ones are the best....!
My favourite Cybermen are and have always been the Tenth Planet or Mondasian Cybermen. They look like burn victims, wrapped up in bandages, and with all the tubes running in and out of them, they are just SO creepy. And I love their speech pattern. My second favourites are probably the Invasion Cyberman.
@@Dalekzilla great minds think alike, both are my favourites as well. 😄
@@thewhoview They're my favorites too! (2017 Mondasian, Telosian[Both Moonbase & Tomb variants{Yes, the costumes in bothh episodes are different in design, The Mind Robber shows this on his website.}], Planet 14[Invasion], The 12th Cyber legion, & the Warrior-Class Cybermen to be exact. If only the 80s design kept the Invasion faces.)
I have to agree that the Cybermen were best in the 60s, they started off so disturbing having human hands and were just so ruthless instead of the new series where they just keep saying Delete
If there is one thing that made the old Who cybermen better, was that they were portrayed as individuals not as mindless stomp in time metal men. It played into the suggestion that there was a person or at least what was left of the person entombed in that outer shell.
Beyond that flashy cgi does not make up for a good story
@@willcorlett7630 You're right, so terrifying, that's what made them work so well. In modern Who they're way too robotic.
I'm not sure they were portrayed as individuals. Part of what I found scary about them as a kid (first time around) was precisely their sameness - that was one of the human aspects they had lost that was creepy about them.
I remember watching the cybermen when I was a kid in the 60s . I’m that old . I’ve always said that they were the scariest adversary for the doctor. They scared me when I was a kid, plus I always wanted to be one. I think it was because the early cybermen had silver wellies. Later ones wore ordinary boots. As a kid I always loved wearing my wellies, so I pretended to be a cyberman when I wore my wellies. Yes I was a strange kid 😂
@@peteralderson1483 sounds like a lovely memory. The Cybermen were definitely scarier in the 60s.
@@thewhoview cybermen became the henchmen, instead of being the main villains/ baddies. It’s strange remembering watching it and knowing they were silver, even though it was in black and white
Ditto - you weren't the only strange kid - I shot sparks from my hands in Moonbase/Wheel homage.
A friend of mine has a pair of silver ugg boots.....still triggering over 50 years later.!
@@andrewholliday251 I had red Dunlop wellies, so they weren’t exactly cybermen silver wellies. But my imagination worked
Easy:
1: They often hid in the shadows at first.
2: They had a more cyborg feel to them.....NuWho cybermen are more like Ironman wannabes or Robocop....and Robocop knows how to do it right.
3: Classic Cybermen had more body horror.
4: NO loud STOMP STOMP STOMP (they even had the Mondasian Cybermen in NuWho go stompy stomp), only the aforementioned Robocop does stompy stomp well.
5: They don't got logos on their chests.
6: NO stupid "DELETE!" catchphrase. What the hell was Russel SNORTING back in the 2000's? They messed up the Sontatons as well, and in more ways than one.
7: They were fighting to merely survive. With their home world gone, they were an endangered species.
8: Injured Cybermen spewing white foam from their chest devices, nuff said.
9: The Tomb Cybermen's babbling when doing physical exertion was creepy.
10: The 10th Planet Cybermen speech.....like a computer scanning the functions of a larynx and speaking in a clipped computer voice was also creepy.
@@TheCastellan some really solid points there you covered, very well done. The Cybermen have lost their body horror element.
Great assessment. I'd also add the glimpses of an eyeball deep in the black socket in Tenth Planet. With the, perhaos best unanswered question of "What sort of face is under that mask?" Rather than a standard shrivelled up skull prop that just falls out when the face panel opens.
@@Benjiesbeenbetter. Me, I always felt what is under any of the Cybermasks are bare skulls with electronic bits.
A good example, go look up the prototype test scene from Robocop 2. The second test prototype steps out from the lab, and he pulls off his helmet, revealing a skull, which screams, and falls over. That, I think is what's under the masks.
th-cam.com/video/NJIjNs_s2NI/w-d-xo.html
@@thewhoview th-cam.com/video/NJIjNs_s2NI/w-d-xo.html This is what I feel is under the helmets/masks. The second prototype in the clip. Though I COULD see something like this happening on Mondas, when the Mondasians began their cybernetic program.
Admittedly the logos work for the series 2 cybusmen because they’re made by a company (which ties into the fact that they’re trying to send a different message to the originals)
World enough and time did it really good with Bill’s conversion reveal
@@jcrossan1351 it did indeed 😁
Anyone else noticed that the Cybermen get a new weakness every time they appear until the 1980s?
In Tenth Planet it's radiation. In the Moonbase it's gravity. In Tomb, the cold (and electricity). In Wheel, the X Ray laser. In Invasion, emotion. In Revenge, gold. When they turn up in Earthshock and they are STILL weak to gold, that's the first time ANY Dr Who story treated them with consistency.
@@marquisofcarrabass All very true, although their weakness in the moonbase one could argue is Polly's acetone cocktail. But you could look at the cybermen advancing and upgrading more of themselves, removing more of their own organic components to become more immune to stuff like radiation. That's what I go with. 😉
I was 6 when Invasion was broadcast. I found the sewer scenes utterly terrifying.
Interesting point about the callbacks in Attack of the Cybermen: at the time of broadcast (1985), not only were most of the earlier Cybermen stories not available on VHS, many had not even been novelised yet. Tomb of the Cybermen - to which Attack was a direct sequel - had been novelised, but the actual episodes were thought to be lost, as they wouldn't turn up for another six years. So for many, their knowledge of Cybermen lore was limited to what they could remember or else what they'd read in Lofficier's episode guide!
My favourite Cyberman story is probably Tomb, but my favourite design is undoubtedly Tenth Planet. I especially like that they had human hands. If it had been up to me, I would have made it unmissably clear that although their hands were human, their arms were artificial, consisting of rods and cables that you can actually see through.
@@paulbeardsley4095 I imagine that would of been quite the experience seeing the invasion for the first time.😁 The tenth planet mondassian Cybermen are so nightmarish, I love them. 😊
Love my copy of Lofficier's guide. Sits by my computer when I have to check something. Shame it only goes up to the end of Tom Baker's run.
@@taliesinllanfair4338 there's 2 volumes right? If I'm thinking about the same book.
@@thewhoview yeah 2 volumes. 1st was 'The Programmes', 2nd was 'Who's who' . I lost the second one it had the blue spine.
@@taliesinllanfair4338 very rare, keep hold of it 😄
I think the Tenth Planet ones had the best lines too. They weren't conquering monsters, they just wanted to survive, and have stripped themselves of all their humanity in pursuit of that.
"Our brains are just like yours except that certain weaknesses have been removed. You call them emotions, do you not?"
"Care? No, why should I care? There are people all over your planet dying and you do not care about them"
Way better than the ludicrous Cybusmen going delete delete.
@@richardgregory3684 you're absolutely right, so much more impactful.
Plain and simple the stories were better than the crap they have now
Big time. All about the writing.
Silver Nemesis? Attack of the Cybermen? Let's not get too rose tinted.
Both of those stories were good or at least decent in concept but fell short in execution and could have been good with a bit more work.
Saw something recently saying that one of the reasons the Cybermen were effective in the 60s was that the main cast were short and they cast tall actors as cybermen to accentuate their size. B&W definitely help them as well.
_Revenge of the Cybermen_ is a fave of mine too. There's something about it that gives it a charm that makes it eminently rewatchable.. It's overshadowed by some greats.
@@timothybarnett1006 revenge is so much fun. I know in relation to the cybermen in the 60s, that they chose taller actors to play them to make them more imposing, don't know though if they would always chose smaller actors for the other roles though. 😄
15:25 The Cybermen inherited the traits of their hosts. And the Cybermen were survivors of the Cyberwar, and possibly adopted emotion since total logic did not work all those other times before hand.
I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. Although I feel it's a shame that the Third Doctor never encountered the Cybermen during his era. They would have made superb villains for Season 7, imo.
Tomb is my favourite sixties Cybermen story.
@@ulsteredz Tomb of the Cybermen is such an awesome story; I mean, just the cliffhanger for episode 2 alone is arguably one of the greatest in the show.
Like you, I do think it was a missed opportunity to not have Pertwee face the cybermen. I could totally see that type of story fitting in very well for season 8 or, like you suggested, season 7, which happens to be my favourite season of all of Doctor Who. 😁 The closest we came to that was when the Master hooked the doctor up to the Keller machine in the mind of evil, and it tried to kill him with the doctor's own fears.
I've always assumed that was why Terrance Dicks paired the 3rd Dr off with the cybermen in The Five Doctors.
@@andrewholliday251 Terrance didn't actually want to put the cybermen in the five doctors that was insisted upon by Eric Seward. He had no idea where to put them in the story so wrote that scene with the third doctor & Sarah watching them get massacred by the raston robot.
It wasn’t much, but he did finally meet them in the Death Zone. The Cyber-massacre was spectacular, though.
Would have liked a team-up between Six & Two for ATTACK, instead of THE TWO DOCTORS. Since ATTACK was a sequel to TOMB; also have ATTACK be a three-parter.
For me, the moon-base is the archetypal Cyberman story, it may not have the mythology of "tomb" but it is self-contained exciting and introduces a lot of features that are re-used in later Cybermen stories. The C-men look fantastic in it as well, with the black and white really giving it a great atmosphere. In the modern era, the 2 parter Age of Steele and rise of the cybermen are immaculate re imagining but the following stories are disappointing. It is a real shame that the novel "Plague of the Cybermen" is unlikely to ever appear on screen as it moves along at a cracking pace and does a great job of combining Dr Who and Horror in the tradition of Talons of Weng Chiang and Pyramids of Mars
The Invasion, Tomb and tenth planet were cracking serials especially the invasion imo. These stories had menace and stakes. The only other time the Cybermen were used to good effect was Earthshock. Nu who did them dirty reducing them to shouty stompy tin soldiers in most of their appearances.
@@wyrdwik4610 literally the best cybermen stories ever. 😊 With the exception of world enough & time / the doctor falls which is superb the cybermen in modern Who were basically robots. 🤖
I find The Invasion more and more impressive - 8 episodes that don't flag; not many 6 parters managed that. And (on broadcast) 4 weeks to see the monster! With a story title that didn't give it away! Unbelievable!
I absolutely agree, the '60s was the pinnacle era for the Cybermen. They were at their most effective in every way and all the stories from that era (except Wheel in Space) are solidly cemented among my all-time favourites from the show
I had never really thought about this, but I think I always knew it at my core. Although I will say, that the half converted Cyberman, from the Jodi era added an effective humanity, but not as great as that Capaldi series mentioned with Bill Potts. I think that has to be my favorite story. Doctor Who was super dark and sad under Moffat / Capaldi, from the death of Clara, to the conversion of Bill Potts. I
@@DoctorWhoNose I wished they made ashad more tragic. I would of loved something with the whole partial conversion, like him being overwhelmed by his emotions. 😀
Earthshock for me is the best Cyberman appearance, it has some great action scenes and ties the episodes together - Though I think Beryl Reid was a miscast. Tomb of the Cybermen next as it has some real eerie moments with the archaeological elements. New Who's introduction was good but i think like all the recurring villains they got toned down with each episode subsequently.
@@Biggles_James You can't go wrong with Earthshock. Invasion & tomb are my favs 😍 & I totally agree with you there in regards to modern Who. Although they did make an excellent comeback in world enough and time / the doctor falls, which is my favourite modern Who cyberman story. 😊
All 60's episodes are great. I like the Wheel in space especially as it provides the unknown , with a gradual build up. The modern people have not got any patience to wait to find out or theorise what may be going to happen. Their attention span is also short.
Its more about strategy, rather than gimmicks, Special Effects that have now become two a penny - but really costly to make.
I like cybermen more than daleks
You are absolutely right 60s Cybermen are the best. You mention the racist tropes of “Tomb” which are true and uncomfortable from a decent modern perspective. However it I would say Toberman (played by the late great Roy Stewart, Live and Let Die and many other great roles), was the hero of the story. He doesn’t say much but puts on a brilliant performance and steals the show.
My favourite is Earthshock. Probably because I grew up with 80s Who and just feel that story had all the great scenes and shock moments. I also like how they keep the human aspect through the glass jaw and more emotion which contrary to how they are supposed to be, shows that they are human beings struggling to become robots and suggests that that is just not possible. I also like how whilst the Daleks are supposed to be representations of Nazis and fascism, the Cybermen are extremes of Communism.
I agree though 60s Cybermen fitted the times so well, especially considering the Vietnam War and how the US was desperate to break down communism in Europe and Asia, the advancement of computer technology in the 60s. I can well imagine how that would have played into the fear of young minds in that decade. Also when you consider the happy, flower power hippy culture the idea of monster, replacing their organs and becoming so robotic must have been truly terrifying.
@@floydian2007 Earthshock is a terrific story, you have great taste. Watching these stories as a kid for the first time definitely leaves a lasting impression on you.
You can absolutely see the allegorical messaging about fascism especially in the invasion, playing on the fears at the time & it works so well.
As an 8 year old in 1966 I clearly remember watching the Tenth Planet every Saturday after tea at my friend's house and being absolutely traumatised by the Mondas (walking corpse) Cybermen...still the creepiest version of this classic monster
@@markwardel6751 Sound's like a great memory. They very much feel like zombies in suits & it's such an effective design. 😁
Here in Australia these stories were repeated numerous times - I remember watching new episodes of Wheel in Space/Evil of the Daleks (2nd time around) on weekends while repeats of Tenth Planet were on Mon-Thursday. As a (very) young child seeing both versions of cybermen at the same time took some self-explaining.....!
I also clearly remember (in support of this post) that what was scary about them was that they were people converted (the great 1960s designs helped a fair bit too!) - not silver robots.
Why would the Vogons need to use gold as a weapon when they have their poetry?
@@bob_the_bomb4508 hitchhiker's guide, their poetry is only the third worst in the universe 😂😂
@@bob_the_bomb4508 these Vogans are are different species 😆
“Earthshock” is basically a compilation cyberstory… every plot element in it was from something that preceded it… base under siege, destroy earth, gold is a weakness, humans unwittingly helping them, etc. They were the favorite villain of then script editor Eric Saward.
@@firstlast5499 very much so.
Congratulations on getting to your first 1k subscribers 🎆🎆
@@stephenclaridge1896 thanks Stephen 😊 I'm incredibly grateful. 😃
Earthshock Cybermen was my favourite and still are though that maybe due used be a Cyberman/leader in Blackpool, and various Who Conventions as well as Silver Nemesis
I Love the tomb cybermen the most
@@StephenStumbke-p8y Troughton is fantastic & the Cybermen are so scary. It's such an awesome story & the perfect story to recommend to someone who wants an introduction into 60's Who. 😊
I can understand why people's kneejerk ration is to think Toberman is some sort of racist depiction. The first thing to lead you down this path is how he speaks. I remember reading that originally he was supposed to be deaf and with a visible hearing aid, this was to both mirror how the Cybermen came to be, and to foreshadow his eventual partial conversion. I've no idea why this was dropped but the sort of deaf person's voice was retained. I suppose because Roy Stewart being a part time actor it might have helped hide a possible slightly clunky delivery. Still it's catnip for a modern Western audience on the lookout for racism everywhere. Secondly people latch on to the servant thing. He's a paid servant not a slave (Kaftan can't really say he's my hired muscle for when we turn on you). In terms of his participation in this story, he manages to fight off partial Cyber conversion and ultimately sacrifices himself to avenge Kaftan's murder and save the rest of the group. He's one of the heroes of the story, not exactly a classic racist portrayal. Finally, let's look at the writers. In their previous Cyberman story they also have a Black character. This person happens to be both an astronaut and obviously the mission commander. This was made at a time when racial segregation was still in effect in some parts of the USA. Ultimately, when seen in context I just had a real problem making out that the people making this programme were a bit racist. I know its really trendy these days but I don't think it's true.
I actually liked the Cybermen from the serial Revenge Of The Cybermen. I liked that they had their guns built into their hairdryers on top of their heads.
It's a good costume (particularly like the trendy flares as opposed to scuba gear). It's just the story, cybermat glove puppet, voices, etc etc.
I think the 60s Cybermen work so well because of Kit Peddler. He either co-wrote or provided ideas for all those stories. He was a scientist and heavily inspired by prosthetics and the gory fear mongering about it that was very present in the 1960s. By 1975, Gerry Davis forgot all that, and things went downhill from there.
100% agree. Those 1960's cybermen are always great. Always good to see Tobias Vaughn and PACKER!!! getting a shout out.
I do also enjoy the 80's Cyber Leader and his witty banter.
@@robvegas9354 the cyberleader is excellent! 😄
7:44 He's another Henry Kissinger or Klause Schwab.
Very well thought through! you even convinced me the newer versions of the Cybermen are not completely bad. Though indeed the Delete catchphrase is just silly. I think the thing I like most about them is where, though they're not supposed to have emotions, that their hatred of the Doctor seems to overwhelm them enough to even make them angry. At least, the leaders. I forget which episode it is, maybe Earthshock? but where the leader states 'We will crush them', You feel that hatred in the word 'crush'. The worst thing? They're a joke in the new versions, so weak compared to the Daleks. I admit not seeing anything beyond the Missy reveal so I can't comment after that.
@@khaossilva7475 From revenge of the cybermen onwards the cybermen are definitely more emotional. I'm sure there's an in universe reason for that especially for revenge. 😆
What made the Tenth Planet Cybermen even more scary was the fact that they were not really evil. They didn't think about conquest or killing just for the sake of killing. They were driven purely by a logical goal of surviving. You could not reason with them unless you had a 100% logical point to make. As the Cyberman in that story said "Why should I care? People are dying all over, yet you do not care about them", and the characters couldn't counter that arguement. This is actually something the 5th Doctor took note of when he encountered the mondasians again in "Spare Parts". In that story he was able to have an almost civil coversation with the Cybermen because he knew how to say things that made sense from their perspective.
@@NerdX151 totally agree with you there, spot on.
It's their army boots that lace up......... Seriously now the only Dr who worth watching are William Hartnell , Patrick troughton , and possibly Jon pertwee, and yes I saw them first time around
@@davids8449 🤣 Definitely their lace-up boots. I honestly believe all of classic Who is worth watching. The 70s is my favourite era of the show. 🤘
They were the first Borg
Love the Mondasian Cybermen in 'Tenth Planet.' Another favourite design are those in 'Wheel.' They were elaborate and towered over others.
@@francisorielly9698 nice picks 😎👌
Those 1960s cyber men were truly scary
I felt from Tom Bakers Revenge of the Cybermen they always looked second class to the Daleks from then on and not their equals. I have become indifferent to the current versions much like every thing else in Current Doctor Who
@@trevormaurer3684 that's very fair. I feel a lot of the time modern Who really doesn't understand the Cybermen.
Another great video mate. Still think The Tomb of the Cybermenis best, But then still got Invasion to rewatch. so Who knows.
@@stephenclaridge1896 Let's agree they're both great. 😁
When I was in London I happened on the steps near St Paul's where that iconic scene from Invasion was shot. Was later reminded of that when it was re-used in Dark Water. I loved tomb and Invasion. In non-60s cybermen I enjoyed Revenge and Earthshock. Although, Earthshock was probably more memorable due to the poignant end credits.
@@taliesinllanfair4338 that would of been really cool to visit such an iconic location. 😁 I have a lot of fun with revenge of the Cybermen & of course earthshock is brilliant. You have good taste my friend. 👌😊
A friend of mine thought that the Cybermen had a very high "creep" factor because their faces reminded him of clown faces. PS: I loathe the rebooted Cybermen. The only thing I hated more as far as reboots went were the pregnant Lego Daleks.
@@kayb9979 that's very interesting. The Cybermen's expressionless faces definitely contribute to them being so frightening.
Laddie, your voice track is movie-quality.
In the sense that I can't hear anything without turning computer volume to the max.
And then intro music etc. blow out my eardrums.
@@Azzameen99AZ sorry I had problems with the video. I had to record it twice because my mic died so as a result you have different portions at different volumes, it's all over the place.
If you like the Tenth Planet Cybermen, you really need to listen to the Big Finish story Space Parts. It's one of their best - it gves a backstory to Tenth Planet and is set on Mondas, in the last remaining city on a dying world where there's a plan on how to survive and a black market in body parts....
@@richardgregory3684 I have listened to it. I have it on CD, probably the definitive cyberman story 10/10.
@@thewhoview Me too. It's one of Big Finish best stories. I'd really recommend the _I, Davros_ series too.
@@richardgregory3684 my favourite from the monsters trilogy was Master, it's so good. Both McCoy & beavers are fantastic, I count that as cannon.
I think the Cybermen in the 1960's were far better than the 1980's ones. There more distinictive and creepy.
@@adrianace1725 They were literally the most effective the cybermen have ever been, because the writers really understood them. Always restless, impressively imposing, and 100% creepy. "You belong to us. You shall be like us." 🤖
a) In the 60's they addressed a very real ongoing discussion about replacing yourself with artificial appendages which people were afraid of (hello progress) and b) they were treated seriously and not like a cartoon.
The Davies Era Cybermen had a catchphrase (DELETE) which made them childish, their design was not threatening at all (felt like a toy... which I think is the point) and then they had some very bad stories or stories where they were jobbed or part of other groups of monsters which dropped their lustre a bit.
Nightmare in Silver tried to do better things with them but wasn't a great story so that failed.
They were however really good in the Capaldi finish except they did one last story after it which was appalling and therefore stole it's thunder.
I didn't see them during Jodie to be honest as I'd stopped watching and I've never wasted my time catching up but I saw there were Gallifreyan Cybermen and they looked so goofy...
@@JeremiahEcks777 yeah the cyber-masters in the Whittaker era were in my opinion, really bad. Capaldi's series 10 finale World enough & time / the doctor falls is the best modern Who Cybermen story. I don't mind the RTD Cybermen, its a different version of the Cybermen that aren't from our universe, but their catchphrase you can never take seriously. Let's just agree that the Cybermen are better in classic Who.
@@thewhoview I agree that the Capaldi story is their best use in 'modern' Who.
The Davies one was silly because of the catchphrase. I used to get annoyed by a fellow Whovian of my acquaintance who used to follow me around saying it just to get a rise.
That it's annoying and doesn't warm the cockles of my heart (like a good old fashioned "exterminate") says it all!
"You will be like US" is scarier anyway.
@@JeremiahEcks777 Yeah, it definitely feels like they wanted to make them more like the Daleks & it doesn't work, it's just really silly.
@@thewhoview I think 'to sell toys' really springs to mind when thinking about RTD's Cybermen.
He loved the audio Spare Parts and you definitely see him and his team trying to capture that precise theme but not quite understanding what makes the Cybermen work. You see it with Yvonne - there's the horror at the saws but the horror of the Cybermen isn't that you get chopped up to become a big Dalek-esque catchphrase tank. The horror of the Cybermen is that they still have "human" parts! Hands in the Tenth Planet, mouths in the 80's etc. They are identifiable as humanoids.
That's why the Doctor Falls got them right. Because we see firmly that these monsters can be like US if we choose to reject emotion and compassion. If we did those things we wouldn't march like Zombies but we would become horrible, immoral monsters.
@@JeremiahEcks777 perfect summary 😊👌
Can you imagine the classic cybermen trying to sneak up on anyone with those hydraulic noises?
@@xedalpha1 yeah, that wouldn't be possible. 😆
I agree I think the cybermen peaked in the 60s and while earthshock was phenomenal and attack of the cybermen was great. The 70s and 80s overall weren't consistently as good as the 60s when it comes to cybermen stories.
When it comes to new who the cybermen are a joke that are disrespected by being a subservient and or a secondary antagonist to someone like the master or the daleks. In doomsday something like 50+ cybermen all focus firing on dalek sec and they couldn't even break through his shields, their guns might as well be shooting nerf bullets. Even when they're battling the daleks on the streets the cybermen can't even damage 1 dalek or couldn't even break through the shields of 1 dalek. Also for beings that act on pure logic and lack all emotional thinking they sure are stupid to keep attacking the daleks when their weapons are useless against them. instead of idk forfeiting the battle and retreating because they have absolutely no chance at winning. They just continue to foolishly fight the daleks despite the fact they're useless in a fight against them. The cybermen are completely incompetent in that story. Doomsday is a good dalek story but it just completely disrespects the cybermen. It was not a good outing for the cybermen at all.
The cybermen in new who never had the impact that they had in classic who with the only exceptions being the masterpiece that is the world enough in time/the doctor falls and also age of steel/rise of the Cybermen was pretty good as well. However overall The cybermen just don't work in new who. The writers just can't get them right for some reason. I hope that some day the cybermen will come back with a real bang and consistently have good episodes for them. But until then I can just re-watch classic doctor who when I want to experience the greatness of the cybermen again.
@@mayojar5264 Really great assessment. The Cybermen have just never been fully realised in modern Who with the exception of rise of the Cybermen / age of steel & World enough & time/ the doctor falls. I think army of ghost is good but you're right the Cybermen are completely let down in doomsday.
The Wheel in Space could not see the Cybermen use their fleet to take out the Wheel. They need to capture the Wheel by stealth for the plan to work. A lot of the Cyberman stories had them rely on stealth due to low numbers or other factors. Otherwise, great video, totally spot on in its ideas.
@@tbb4023 I don't remember if the story specifically stated how many cybermen they have in their fleet. The Cybermen's plan requires too many outside variables in order for their plan to work. I still think there could have been a much easier way for the cybermen to attack the wheel, but hey, maybe their invasion fleet was very small and, like you say, stealth could have been their best option.
A lot of fans are very hard on this story; I do agree that the pacing is the one thing that hurts it, making it a bit of a drag, and the telesnap reconstruction doesn't help, but I wouldn't say it's terrible or even a bad story. If it were found or animated, I'm sure it would have a bit more appreciation.
BTW I'm glad you enjoyed the video. 😉👍
@@thewhoview You are completely right about them probably being able to implement a more streamlined plan with a greater chance of working smoothly. The Cybermen in real life would not be working to a short deadline and needing to fill six episodes. lol. That said, I just need enough to let it not hit me in the face so the willing suspension of disbelief still works. The fleet would not have to be very small but they are definitely a lot less numerous than humans and in multiple stories, probably Revenge of the Cyberman but maybe Attack of the Cybermen and others, they are smaller in number, if at only certain points in their history. Almost all of the Cyberman stories have them infiltrating and building up and having to overcome a lot of people before an overt conflict. It is possible the humans could cut whatever signal they need or otherwise defeat the whole point of taking the wheel. The attack on the wheel would be bound to be detected in any event. That would allow planning time, co-ordination time, and the ability to muster forces. You might gamble on individual cyberman being able to take out 10 human soldiers each, at least briefly with surprise, before mass conversions worked in their favour. You probably could not count on each cybership taking out 10 ships in the Earth fleet without surprise. Anyway, objectively it is definitely too convoluted a plan, and I have never given it this kind of thought so this is fun, but I could rationalize it long enough to enjoy it and wish it were not lost. Keep up the good work.
My favorite Cybermen story is Big Finish's Warzone, a story with the 5th doctor, Tegan, Nyssa and their new comapnion Marc. It's horrifically brutal and one of the most harrowing stories I've ever experienced. It's incredible.
@@normallynormal3573I haven't heard that one but it sounds like my cup of tea. Might have to pick it up next time it goes on sale.
Spare parts is my favourite audio for sure don't think it would be the same if they were modern cybermen.
Great video! Loved it. How do you avoid getting copyright struck?
@@3rd_Doctorglad you enjoyed the video. I have never gotten a strike just a lot of copyright claims, which are so annoying because the video is fair use. If you use as little video clips as possible it helps a lot. That's why I use photos mainly.
The Tenth planet is one of my favourite stories of the classic series. Not really big on new who. It doesn't have the same charm and appeal.
@@djm-3995 that's perfectly fine, you can't go wrong with the classics.
@@thewhoview what are your favourites from the classic series?
@@djm-3995 doctor who & the Silurians, inferno, deadly assassin, genesis of the Daleks, caves of androzani, the ark, the war machines, tomb of the cybermen, the invasion, the Dalek invasion of earth, fury from the deep (not the animation), frontier in space, mind of evil, stones of blood, curse of fenric. Those of some of my favourites. Season 7 (classic) is my all time favourite season.
@@thewhoview A lot of those are my favourites too. Some of mine are The Reign of Terror, The Time Meddler, The Moonbase, The Daemons, Death to the Daleks, Horror of Fang Rock, Earthshock, Five Doctors, Revelation of the Daleks, Remembrance, and Ghost Light❤️
@@djm-3995 you have extremely great taste. I'm sure there's some I'm forgetting, but doctor who & the Silurians might be my favourite story ever.
I didn't see the 60's Cybermen when originally broadcast cos I wasn't even born then but I think the 60's Cybermen were just so much more creepy and threatening. The Cybermen from more recent times are just clunky steampunk robots.
@@hopebgood totally agree! I wasn't born when classic Who was originally broadcast, but that doesn't mean you had to be alive when they originally aired to enjoy & appreciate them. 😄
I like the way no-one actually tells us what’s the problem with the depiction of Toberman. Just make the necessary social justice noises to make sure we all know you’re a good person and leave it at that.
To some extent, in the 2020s there's LESS problems with Toberman/Kaftan now than there was in 1967 - although this is rarely acknowledged. This is because in 1967 those parts were typical racist stereotypes of the era - and thus reinforced those prejudices. But for a 21st century DW fan who doesn't spend their time watching every other 1960s TV series - they're no longer racist stereotypes because they're the only examples they have!. Instead they're just corny villains and servants. This has the ironic implication that modern viewers who diss the characters (now) are actually revealing their own unresolved hang-ups. A viewer new to the story, and without cultural context re when it was first broadcast won't see the racism. The context isn't there.
The problematic story isn't Tomb, it's Talons of Weng-Chiang casting a caucasian as Chinese. This was pretty off when it happened in 1977. Holmes/Hinchcliffe's excuse was that they were riffing on 19th century penny-dreadful tropes (Namely Fu Manchu - always played by caucasians in makeup) but it was a lousy excuse then and it's only gotten worse with time.
I want the Toberman back, he should turn up in a new series, exactly the same, and treated exactly the same, but with no explanation. Return of the Toberman.
Sick of that crap. People apologising for the past every time something ‘controversial’ from decades ago is shown.
He was a black slave. So what? He got to be the real hero of the piece - that’s a positive.
It never bothered me, neither did his silent strong man from TERROR OF THE AUTONS.
When the surviving WHO was marketed to American PBS, in my region in 1985-'86, broadcast in movie format (like 17 Hartnell, and 5 Troughton),....there were no Cybermen episodes in the package. Only the clip of the trail in The War Games, of the enemies The Doctor fought. Three Dalek stories, one Ice Warriors. We had the Target novels, and DWM to see photos. Then the Cybermen stories vs' 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th. When "tomb" was released on video in '92-'3 -wonderful! The JN-T arranged "Years" videos, like the Cyberman one with surviving "Moonbase" and "Wheel" and the six "Invasion" linked by Nic Courtney on VHS....When the fan recon's, and how to obtain them, one of the first I wanted was "Tenth Planet". And the audio's on CD. We now have all offical Cyber' stories, with animation or episodes, except for the "Wheel" We are sooooo fortunate, all the efforts to find, restore, remake, and let fans experience.
@@jonathanmurphy3141 I'm getting more viewers from America telling me their first exposure to classic Who. It's amazing to hear people's stories. we are definitely very blessed now. I love the fact that so much of missing who has now been animated, which is a great way for people to experience those stories for the first time. Really awesome to hear about you watching doctor who on PBS. 😊
I used to enjoy thinking that inside the cybermen was an emulsified mayonnaise. That is they took people and emulsified them into a mayonnaise and that is what ran the cybermen.
@@supercompooper 😝 Sounds gnarly. 😆
They sounded like Peter cook and once you twig to it you can’t unhear it.
@@probablynotmyname8521 which cybermen, because honestly I can't hear his voice.
Story and character arcs aside, a child of the 1960s I always felt black and white film was more effective than the oversharp video of later eras. It leant an air of distance and mystery - and obviously it covered over production imperfections better. In recent eras, they made the cybermen too like one-dimensional, invulnerable stormtroopers for my tastes, but it must have been hard to keep Doctor Who baddies fresh - particularly the Daleks.
@@Nigelrudyardmusic That's the great thing about it being in B&W, it masks those mistakes really well. 😉👌
The cybermen beyond the sixties have some stories that are enjoyable, but the Cybermen's actual portrayal are in my opinion all over the place.
@@thewhoview Absolutely. I loved the Hartnell and early Troughton years for that. In recent years, the 'Terminator' seems to have left its fingerprints all over the writing for the Cybermen.
While bringing back Michael Kilgariff as the Controller in Attack was a nice nod to Tomb, they might have done better to not use him in the costume.
@@aqacefan I agree; it was a cool idea but I don't think it would have made a difference if he was played by someone else. I just wish the cyber controller looked like he did in the tomb of the cybermen. That would have been amazing! 😍
Tomb Of The Cybermen has one of the great soundtracks. That creepy brass riff - Dah-da-DHA - is p[ositively haunting
@@andrewmorton7482 I completely agree with you there my friend. 👌
Completely agree 60's Cybermen were amazing - I was not around in the 60's but I remember Tomb of the Cybermen being discovered in 1992 and seeing it for the first time. Earthshock is the only good Cyber story after 1969 IMO. Also you missed the cameo in Carnival of Monsters.. best appearance of the 70s !
@@ritchwaghorn6541 Yes they had a brief appearance in the war games, the mind of evil, & the carnival of monsters. But those were really just 2 second blink & you'll miss it cameos, so I felt that it didn't justify me needing to mention them as they don't really contribute to the plot. 😉
They were terrifying more for the values and intent they had than their appearance - though that was disturbing as a child!
@@yousoufkirkwood6289 It still is very much scary. The idea that they were like us & want to make you like them makes the cybermen as a whole so effect. 😊
I was always a fan of the Cybermen, never keen on the Daleks, The Tomb of the Cybermen is my all time favourite Doctor Who story, though i would've love to see the very first Cybermen in a couple of more stories.
@@davidphilp4453 tomb is a fantastic story, & yeah it would of been awesome if they used that original design for a couple more stories. 😊
Yes Attack of the Cybermen pulls no punches that's for sure; Silver Nemesis was a crock
ATTACK is very good. My favourite colour Cybermen serial.
I don't hate the Cybus Cybermen, it really captures the body horror aspect, to my mind. These are not just robots, but they aren't just suits you put on, either. You have to be cut up and put on life support to pilot these things. You cannot put on a cyber boot, there are metal struts, linkages, hydraulic lines, and power and data cables filling the entire leg.
I mainly say this because of that one horrendous scene where thy put on cyber armour as a disguise. Where was your toolbox? Where was the montage with the A-team music showing you ripping out a human-sized computer system just to be able to fit inside? You're telling me that in under an hour you got three people into complex life support system where no biological matter is intended to exist below the chest?
@@dafoex I don't hate them in their first 2 stories, they work. They are different type of cybermen, like the 12th doctor says: Where There's people there's cybermen. Those first 2 stories still had elements of body horror, but after that they kinda forgot that the were people & the cybermen were reduced to stomping robots.
Off topic, but the topics been covered. What I want to see, or wanted to see before they destroyed the series, is a return of the Dominators and Quarks, suitably upgraded, more deadly and floating now.
@@onastick2411 If it's Doctor Who related, it's never off topic. 😄 A reimagining of the Quarks would have definitely been cool to see. If you like the Quarks they have just appeared in a new big finish fourth doctor audio with Harry Sullivan. I have no idea what it's like, though.
I so agree with you 👍 excellent video
@@David-zo7fb thanks glad you liked it.😊
I grew up in the 60s when the Cybermen were scary especially in black 'n' white. The current versions look more like something that Disney would have dreamt up so as not to scare the children.
Favourite Cyberman Story: its between between Sword of Orion and Spare Parts I think.
@@borusa32 oh those are good picks. I love spare parts 😍
@thewhoview have you listened to The Great Cyber War from Big Finish?
Its in the Audacity box set. Its the Cyber story I never thought we needed. and gives a lot of info regarding the Revenge Cybermen. Plus makes them make way more sense
@@BlindTimeLord no I haven't. I love McGann, but when it come to big finish, because they release so much new stuff it's hard to keep up with it so I cherry pick what I'm interested in. But from what you've described it sounds very interesting, might have to get it.
Yeah it's good :)
I have watched sixties Doctor Who out of order, thanks to library dvds, and Tomb was my introduction to them, so that's always been my favorite. Need to see the Wheel plotline, don't know if it's at the library. And yes, I have not really seen old Who in order, but the low budget feel just seems more appropriate than some of the current stuff. Just mem
@@jamesomeara2329 I originally watched a lot of classic who out of order, saw them as the DVDs were released. You should be able to check out the wheel in space online. I watched it on dailymotion, it's a photo reconstruction on all episodes except for 3 & 6 because those exist.
To me, the image at 20:55 is the classic Cyberman... Impressive, considering when it was made...
@@richardruff8712 I love the original tenth planet designs, so creepy.
@@thewhoview Yes, agreed... It did give that impression of something that was ' different ', and yet compelling to watch, bandages and all...! ... Sadly, I think that this modern ' Robocop ' style, is a real cop-out, and just going for a predictable design, which most younger viewers would understand... To me, as a 68 year old ( who remembers the first ever episode of Dr Who, the day after the Kennedy shooting ) and the repeat, a week later.... I am convinced that the early designs were the best, especially the original Tardis interior... Classic 1960's Science Fiction....
The problem is that after the 60s they deviated from the original concept. The Cybermen are supposed to be something grotesque that used to be human but now is a walking horror. A person that received multiple surgeries to build those systems (imagine lots of tubes and devices to keep you alive). In the 70s and 80s the Cybermen began acting like guys in spacesuits talking normally and everything. In the modern show they are just robots. The blunder in the classic series was to portray them as a conquering race when the Cybermen work better when they are just trying to survive.
@@tenshiigarashi4063 Rise of the cybermen/ age of steel had some good stuff in it. Defeating the cybermen with their emotional inhibitor. But by far the best modern Who story that showcases the body horror elements of the cybermen is world enough & time. The Cybermen were created out of people's desperation for survival.
Agree about the 60's cybermen. They had a clear and consistent threat. I hated the 70's and 80's cybermen. They were just silly villains with way too much emotion. In the new series there have been mixed results, but at least they brought back their emotionless simple desire to convert rather than conquer. The Capaldi era I think really got them right as did the Whitaker era.
Yeah, although I think the Earthshock cybermen were great. The costumes are terrific and they were kept a total surprise after being absent for many years. Never forget that ending where it pans to two cybermen saying "Destroy them. Destroy them at once" - totally unexpected, and kept completely under wraps. Not a hint of them anywhere. Unfortunately it was downhill from there - they got overused and were awful in Silver Nemesis (literally exploding on contact with gold). Although the scene where Lytton is shown partially converted in Attack of the Cybermen is very effective indeed. And brutal.
@@TheBlackcredo Earthshock does a terrific job with the redesign of the cybermen's costume, still showing the remnants of what they were, but they were portrayed more emotional, you're right. World enough & time/ the doctor falls is probably the best the Cybermen have been in modern Who.
@@richardgregory3684 Silver nemesis is IMO the weakest portrayal of the Cybermen in classic Who.
@@thewhoview It's awful. The established canon was that gold plated their breathing apparatus. Here we got them exploding on contact with it - how can anyone be scared of Cybermen whoi can be destroyed by a gold-tipped arrow or a gold coin from a catapult? Absolutely stupid beyond words. They were pretty bad in The Five Doctors too...they were just portrayed as being terminally stupid.
@@richardgregory3684 but the scene where they get massacred in the 5 doctors is great. 🤖🏹💥
I really hated all the metallic stamping of the new Cybermen. It emphasised how robotic the new ones are. The older ones , with their weird sibilant voices are much more alien and frightening, with that element of body horror lacking in the new ones.
@@Helen-ge5ng yeah they are way too robotic in modern Who & need to go back to doing more body horror with the Cybermen.
One of the biggest scares in The Invasion is that the cybermen - when not attacking - are totally still and silent - to the point you jump when they turn up. The RTD ones can be heard 10 miles away. For some reason they clunk even when walking on carpet.....
Though I AM fond of the Revenge Cybermen.
I loved Silver Nemesis maybe because I saw this as a 13 year old really enjoying dr who again and disappointed in its time slot as it should have been better received (season 25 and 26)
@@masterdanthrax hey that's cool, we all know what we like. 😉
I rather liked the Cybermen throughout entirety of the classic show, there was a progression in the design, essentially becoming more and more technological.
In my opinion though they really buggered them up in Nu-Who (as with so many other things), and I don't think they've ever actually explained where the Cybus Cybermen went, or why our universe's Cybermen now look like them.
@@Jamie_E_Pritchard definitely agree with you there, advancing & upgrading each time in classic Who. There's some plot holes in modern Who with the Cybermen, It's the same thing with the Daleks in modern who, after victory of the Daleks they would just show up without explanation.
@@thewhoview I'm afraid this is part of the malaise of modern writing (or rather modern writers). They've become far too comfortable with not opening mystery boxes or bothering to tie up loose ends.
Or (perhaps even worse in my eyes) hand-waving Deus ex Machina resolutions without any build up or logic after writing themselves into corner. Something which RTD is notorious for.
Unless there is an insertion of something for the sake of the series story arc there's seemingly very little effort to take the history, lore, and prior events into account and how they may effect the current story.
Of course now with RTD's return Who is transforming from a science fiction show to a science fantasy show, with emphasis on the fantasy, and when you're dealing with what is essentially magic no explanation for anything needs to be given. Just how he likes it...
Wow! Some memories. A bit vague at times lol. I remember Mi Mam taking me to the pictures to see the first film and hiding behind the settee when the Cybermen or Daleks came on. Got the first ever Dr Who Album upstairs
Stopped watching it after never missing an episode for so many years when it went stupidly woke, The Dr became female and it became woke preaching.
It had been bad enough when the scary Master became the loony, not at all scary, Missy. (Why wasn't she called The Mistress!!)??
The Master, The Mistress??
Missy was such a childish sort of name. Something you call a naughty daughter lol.
Ironic lulz if AI could be used to 'recover' these lost episodes...
@@chezsnailez Ian Levine is doing that, though I have no idea if there any good.
So were the Daleks also better in the 60s ? 😊
@@stephenclaridge1896 To be honest with you apart from destiny of the Daleks where the story thinks they're robots, I would say the Daleks are always a strong antagonist for all of classic Who. There's definitely an argument to be had with which decade are the best for the Daleks.
They can fucking fly in NuWho, for a start...
Flying Cybermen to go with flying Daleks, I suppose.
NuWHO is sh*t. I greatly dislike it.
Why wouldn't they fly? It gives the cybermen an advantage where they're far more mobile compared to humans.
@@robotx9285 It's a silly idea - and it looks stupid.
@@cyrusq5999Flying daleks have been around since Remembrance though. They make it look better than the Cybermen too since they’re more like tiny battleships than anything.
@@idle_speculation They've been around since the comics - I think REVELATION was the first time they were seen flying. Originally, the one Orcini blew away was supposed to be launched into the air by the SFX team, to give the appearance of flight. Later on, Davros was revealed he could also fly - or rather hover - in his chair.
dr who was scary back then....ya know pre disney days
The Cyberborg.
It's funny but for me, the best Cybermen will always be those from the (much maligned) Revenge Of The Cybermen. Do very much appreciate Tomb, though - cracking entertaining!
@@lenlooksback7981 I have a lot of fun with revenge of the cybermen, maybe because it was one of the early fourth doctor stories I saw. I love it despite it's obvious flaws & plot holes. but I can't deny the fact that it's not the greatest portrayal of the cybermen. 😆
@@thewhoview Well, I've never understood this impression, myself. What's so wrong with them being more emotional/bombastic? It's Cybermen at their most desperate and dangerous.
@@lenlooksback7981 I suppose so, I'm sure there's an in universe canon explanation for why they are so emotional.
@@thewhoview Do believe they're still THE VERY LAST Cybermen, in all cannon, so, I think it can easily be argued they'd begun to revert back to having more human traits, in order to adapt/survive. Whatever the case, I absolutely LOVE the Revenge Cybermen.
A poor man's Borg
@@SoundwaveSG1 they were actually created before the Borg. But you can't really compare star trek's big budget to doctor who.
More like the Borg are grungy cybermen😅
It's the other way around (and didn't we all notice it at the time!?) - the borg were cookie-cutter steals from the cybermen.
The reason the original Cybermen were so successful was that plastic surgery was in it's infancy. They tapped into the fear and doubts of what surgeons were beginning to do with the human body.
Try listening to Spare Parts. It's harrowing. Great fifth doctor story.
@@Palooka37 I own it on CD. One of my favourite big finish audios. 😁👌
One of the things cybermen in DW are famous for is that almost all their stories are lousy - for every Invasion there's a Revenge, Silver Nemesis, or any 21st century takes (excepting Capaldi's two parter). And yet they remain popular - despite that.
Imagine what a good cyberman story - one that actually played with the cyber concept as part of the story - would do for them! The mind boggles....(add a modern budget take on the Moonbase/Tomb era design and there'd be no stopping them)
Here's a suggestion - try treating them as amoral rather than immoral villains...how about visiting a planet with human colonists having to deal with cybermen agressors....only to discover the cybermen were there first. These cybermen aren't designed for invasion; instead, they're settler/colonists themselves - and designed accordingly - not for offence capacity - and for that reason their 'breathing' is susceptible to gold dust (while soldier cybermen (1960s style) are immune), as they don't need to defend themselves from attack, they weren't put together that way. Humans invent a glitter gun and wipe out the cybemen, thereby starting the cyber wars. This provides a logical rationale for their ongoing obsession with wiping out/absorbing humans (it's a logical solution to the problem they pose) - as well as for how easy they later became to knock off.. If you really want to drill down into the morality play aspects of DW - a visiting Doctor could help develop (in ignorance/prejudice) the glitter gun, before leaving. So he didn't create the cybermen - but he was pivotal in them becoming villains re human interaction.
Too much?
@@andrewholliday251 it's definitely interesting, the one thing with the cybermen especially in modern Who is that the writer's really don't understand how to properly utilise them.
405 lines TV made these beings really creepy
Creepy early cyber men now just look like robots
They started looking like robots in THE INVASION, imo.
EARTHSHOCK and ATTACK OF THE CYBERMEN did their best to remind viewers that these things were more than just machines.
The 1980s Cybermen would do a lot of onscreen bleeding in the action sequences - like their 1960s counterparts.
It's a shame that you can't recreate the shot of the Cybermen coming down the steps anymore, due to someone deciding to bolt the north end of the Millennium Bridge to them!!!! Clearly whoever came up with that idea wasn't a Doctor Who fan!
@@MadDragon-lb7qg The dam spoilsports. 🤬
because they were techno mummies who used to be human, who still think they are alive
nu who they had no dialogue and just stomped about and did almost nothing
@@papalaz4444244 way too robotic in modern Who.
HI I Loved the !980's Cybermen 👍
@@mrb3991 that's awesome 😊