They fired the guy who wanted to stay, told the guy who wanted to leave he couldn't, didn't want to invest significantly into the program because they were embarrassed by it, and they were embarrassed by it because they refused to invest enough into it.
I spoke to Steven Wyatt (the writer of "Paradise Towers" and "The Greatest Show in the Galaxy"), and he said that because of that the show's reputation was so low that they had to remove their work at Doctor Who from their CVs
"I think the show had seen better days" - TRANSLATION: "We haven't bothered watching it since Baker or Davison, we won't give it a bigger budget but will complain about how cheap it is, and hell; we don't even like it to begin with unless it gets us ITV Strike viewership" I remember buying a DVD of Battlefield from my local bookshop. I watched it. I loved it. I played it endlessly. This was the DVD I brought with me on family trips. I watched the opening to Part 3 repeatedly. I loved it all: McCoy, Aldred, Courtney, the special effects, the explosions, the title sequence, THE KEFF MUSIC, all of it. I'm so glad that both the McCoy and Colin Baker era are being re-evaluated and beloved more now, because they - the actors and the production team - deserve it. This era was made with so much love, thought and care. And yes, that includes the Kandyman.
It's funny how people often mention the Kandyman as some kind of tacky villian, but he stands so strongly in my mind as one of my first impressions of doctor who as a child, and I remember the doctor thwarting him with the lemonade like it was yesterday and thinking that was clever, even though I've probably only seen the story once.
Battlefield: Ah yes, the serial where Sophie Aldred was nearly either drowned in a cracking glass tank or cut to ribbons if it broke. I still remember the outtakes from that, and McCoy's "GET HER OUT OF THERE!" as she was hauled to safety out of the tank.
@@ireallydidntwanttomakeanac575 Ah yes I hope my reply didn't come across as though I thought you were trashing it, I was picking up from your point as I've seen much discussion about it being a dud too, which I've never quite understood. Similarly I've seen much discussion about paradise towers being a dud but I always had a soft spot for how entertaining it is just because of how campy it was, and how some scenes ("All hail the great architect") come across as Python sketches to me and crack me up.
@@Johno3998 I heard someone say that Paradise Towers was the worst story of Season 24. They must be joking. I've only recently watched it and I love it to pieces. It is such a fun story. You can tell that this was the true changing of hands as Pip and Jane Baker's Time and the Rani was meant for Colin, so Paradise Towers is where Sylv really gets to delve into his own Doctor.
I think we underestimate how much having portable TVs was starting to break up the idea of the family viewing experience. Someone must have though (or been convinced) that the Dr Who fans would follow the show, and probably were not the sort of people who watched Corrie anyway.
@@davidcritchley3509 no, it was meant for families. The way BBC budgets worked back then was Children's TV got an amount per hour (say £200k) Comedy got about the same, but Variety and Family productions got significantly more. That is why at teh same time Dr Who was declining shows like "The Young Ones" which was really an alternative comedy and should have qualified for the lower budget, featured a musical number from a band (like Madness or Motorhead) which then qualified the show as variety not comedy and thus garnered the higher budget. In the same way, Dr Who was a family show and got a higher budget than children's TV
Simply put it: JNT stayed on too long, he should have left with Peter Davison. The Higher Ups didn’t like the show at all, but they hated JNT and wanted to hurt him by refusing his resignation and do everything to make sure the show died a slow painful death with him at the helm. I honestly think if Dr Who was placed on Saturdays during the McCoy years it would have been massive.
JNT has planned to leave after The Five Doctors the BBC asked him to stay on. In the Making of Doctor Who JNT says he's plans to leave at the end of Season 25. The BBC asked him to come back
He was supposed to leave after S23 too but the BBC asked him to stay on bc they couldn’t find anyone to replace him as no one wanted anything to do with DW at that time
I feel that if he'd left after Androzani, he'd be seen as one of the best Doctor Who producers of all time. Sure, there'd still be some real clunkers but he had given Tom Baker's final season a shot in the arm and given Tom a fitting final story....them much of Davison's time was very good with Androzani being absolutely outstanding. But, who else could have taken over? The BBC pretty much kept JNT in place when he wanted to move into soap opera production.
I know McCoy does have his critics, but I always felt that he was great and was saddened when he left. This is a great video that had me engrossed and reminding myself why I actually have great fondness for classic Who. I remembered an article in Empire magazine about The Hobbit titled "The 7th Doctor is the 3rd Wizard" and it made me happy to think how he is genuinely regarded, this video gave me that same feeling. Thank you for all your efforts.
Sylvester McCoy was my first Doctor, though I barely remember watching him as I was so young. I love how much pride he still has in the show, and his relationships with the other actors. I saw an interview with Paul McGann where he said that as soon as Ncuti Gatwa was announced as the new Doctor, Sylvester texted him saying “Scots:4 Scousers:2!!!!” 😂 He also made a lovely video congratulating Ncuti and welcoming him to the Doctor Who family. He just seems like such a wholesome man.
Gatwa isn’t the Doctor any more than Whittaker was. The Doctor ended with Capaldi. All the others have been imposters sent from the Master to ruin the Time Lord’s good name.
@@sird2333 My original reply vanished, but that was such an odd comment. Both Gatwa and Whittaker are every bit as valid as all of the previous actors who played The Doctor.
‘They have some sort of PTSD over the 1985 haters….” Josh, you nailed it! I *do* have PTSD over that era, not only because it was my favorite show, but because it had been around for SO long. It was one of those things that was always there. And for it to end so abruptly, it was a shock. But also - instead of the show ending definitively - they kept teasing that it might return, or that it was just on a hiatus…it died a slow death, which made it all the more painful.
I wasn't there for the '85 and '89 hiatuses (I would've been negative years old), but the fact that the BBC kept paying lip service by saying "Oh, it's not 'cancelled,' it's just 'on hiatus'" is something that I find especially gross and enraging. Why keep stringing people along like that? Would it of affected merch sales THAT dramatically? That's the only reason I can think of, unless they just wanted to be especially cruel.
@@Chord_ - You are very correct on feeling strung along. And to make matters worse, this was in a different era, when that sort of thing was more rare and didn't happen often. There were fewer media companies. Fans had less interaction with the producers than now, etc. So it especially stung in that era.
I know you were worried about what you said and that it was harsh, but I actually snorted when you said it and took no offense at all. The fandom can 100% be a lil dramatic sometimes and in the funniest ways I haven't really seen elsewhere. I also agree though they were right to be upset about the radio silence for so long without even a slither of information. I can imagine it was super daunting to see the writing on the wall but with no confirmation whatsoever and being stuck in limbo.
Doctor Who and Star Trek cannot coexist. Doctor Who got started before Star Trek, so it was able to build up some momentum during the Hartnell years. When Star Trek got started in 1966 Doctor Who didn't immediately suffer, but the timeline has retroactively corrected itself by purging most of the Troughton stories from history. Star Trek, in the meantime, constantly struggled in the ratings and was ultimately cancelled after three years. After that cancellation, Doctor Who rose to new heights with the classic series reaching the peak of its popularity in the 1970s, however many people thought that things began going downhill towards the last couple of years of the Fourth Doctor's run, which occurred at the same time that the Star Trek movie series started. Still, they were just movies, being released years apart, so Doctor Who was able to continue into the 1980s, but in a reduced status, which would hit its low point when the series was taken off the air for eighteen months from 1985 to 1986. Just as that hiatus was ending the Star Trek franchise would reach new levels of financial success with its fourth movie, The Voyage Home, and shortly after Doctor Who came back Star Trek would return to television with The Next Generation. For a few years, then, Star Trek and Doctor Who co-existed, but it was a rough time for both franchises. The first two seasons of The Next Generation were infamously bad, as was the fifth movie, and Doctor Who had its episode count cut in half and its audience plummet. In 1989 Doctor Who was finally cancelled and TNG would receive a second wind with its third season, rising to new heights of popularity which would continue for the rest of the series' run and allow three spin-offs and five additional movies to be made throughout the '90s and early 2000s. By the mid-2000s, though, Star Trek was on the decline, with both its most recent series, Enterprise, and movie, Nemesis, performing badly. This allowed Doctor Who to return to television in 2005 to great success. Star Trek would have a few movies in the years that followed, with each one performing worse than the last, but wouldn't return to television (well, streaming, really) until the premiere of Discovery in 2017. That brings us to the situation we're in now, with both franchises on the air but both experiencing considerable amounts of audience push-back and declining popularity. The universe simply cannot allow both of these properties to exist simultaneously, and when they attempt to do so both of them suffer.
I remember when it got cancelled and I was surprised because I loved that era of the show. I think the Colin Baker era killed the brand in the mind of the public of the 80s and nothing could bring it back
Sophie as Ace was quite an action heroine for the Whoniverse thanks to scenes like that. Seeing her use a slingshot with gold coins on the Cybermen was even better. I admired her line: "So who'll be next and who'll be lucky?"
I was only 9 so I may be misremembering, but I'm convinced that at the end of Survival part 4 they broadcast a message saying the show would be back. I waited and waited, it was probably 2-3 years later that it finally dawned on me that it wasn't coming. The McCoy era was MY era. I was 7 when it started, I'd just got my own TV for my bedroom (mainly for playing games on my trusty Acorn Electron) and suddenly I didn't have to watch Coronation Street or EastEnders every night just because it was what my mum and dad wanted to do. I could do my own thing, and I think Doctor Who became a big part of that. It was MY thing, my little interest that I could indulge myself in without needing the approval or involvement of my parents and I found it at just the right age for that. I still love it to this day, not just because of nostalgia but also because (after an admitedly shaky start in season 24) it got really, really good and still holds up brilliantly now.
They didn’t put up such a message. Off-air BBC1 recordings of Survival Part 3 (it was a 3-parter) have the end credits playing out without any announcement about Who. Then IIRC it went into a trailer for Blackadder Goes Forth before starting Bergerac.
@stickytapenrust6869 There you go then. I WAS misremembering! Also I can't believe I forgot Survival was a 3-parter - I literally watched it the other day. Must have been in a rush when I wrote that.
Airing it against Corrie was the final nail in the coffin for DW at that time. The McCoy era especially the last 2 seasons were great. Fun fact: the reason why McCoy had so little dialogue in The TV Movie is bc it was a request from Alan Yentob (BBC 1 controller 1993-1996) as he thought the McCoy era was the reason for DW’s cancellation in 89 and the other execs were hesitant to bring him back for that exact same reason too.
and then jnt complained said regeneration took too long would of been interesting though they said Mcgann on holiday bring back peter davison or colin baker to do a story
I think McCoy was treated very similarly to Baker; cut off, just as he was getting the hang of it. Both their eras had their shaky moments, but more than made up for them in moments of brilliance. It's tantalizing to think what might have happened had either been allowed to continue. . . (For what it's worth, I was NOT a fan of the Virgin New Adventure novels that came after, but it was all we had at the time, and "Power of the Doctor" paying them lip-service, hinting at the Ace/Doctor fallout, and unambiguously reconciling them brought me closure, and a tear to my eye. "We're Ace!"). Something called "Doctor Who" will always be available. It has grown well beyond any one studio's power to cancel.
McCoy's first season was a bit off but it picked up afterwards pretty well, things got darker, more eerie and sinister. Not to mention remembrance of the daleks having the shocking cliff hanger of a dalek chasing the doctor up some steps to a locked door, as well as the hype of two factions against each other.
Josh, you've done it again! I am always in awe of the production values of these docs. You'd think you had a whole team of researchers and graphics people behind them!
I think the BBC at the time simply hated sci-fi, especially their own brand of low budget sci-fi; they saw it as low brow entertainment and not to put to fine a point to it they were elitist snobs! They axed Blake's 7 at the start of the '80's (which had much higher viewing figures than Dr Who did at the end), self sabotaged Star Cops around the mid '80's, then by the late 80's it was Dr Who's turn. They thought they should be spending money on endless period costume dramas and the like. In their supposed infinite wisdom they were very short sighted!
Also I never want to hear John Nathan Turner slander after he stuck around for years after his job was basically gone so he could keep Doctor Who alive. Sayward dragging his name through the mud bugs me to no end
I might be a crazy 7th Doctor fan boy, but I genuinely think the last two seasons are the highpoint on the original series, with literally only Silver Nemesis being a bum note (and even then, there's still lots of positives). Privately, I even extend that to season 24, but the world isn't ready to hear that yet. I do think though, that if the show hadn't gone on hiatus, I can't imagine it running now - the hiatus built a bit of mythos around the show, moving it from a long-running show to something with almost legendary status. Fans built an identity and a community around the novels and other extended media, and I think that really deepens what it means to be a Who fan. I like to see the last few seasons as a bonus - the decision to cancel it, consciously or not, was made a lot earlier. There was realistically nothing the show could do to save itself by that point, but by god did they make a brilliant attempt.
The sylvester McCoy era is up there with the best era of doctor who after a rocky start it really start to take shape once ace joined just a shame the bbc didn't see it that way why does the bbc doesn't support the show like it's awesome
Out of all the dreadful Whittaker episodes, one stood out for me, the one where it feels like an 80s episode in a quarry. The one with the space apartments and bad monster makeup lol.
Having lived through this time and read the DWM articles when published, your video nicely sums up an era most newer fans are unfamiliar with. Something you show well is that the show was the deliberately scheduled to lower ratings. And hey, if you do a video on the many fates of Ace, I'd love to see it!
I watched Dr Who as a kid in the 70s, crying - according to my mother - when Dr Who destroyed the Daleks. The Baker / Davidson / McCoy eras were hamstrung by poor scripts, small budgets and laughable sets and special effects. A more contemporaneous example is Sherlock. A couple of fantastic seasons and then cliff-diving in quality (reminds me of Sliders - a cliff-dive once Arturo is killed off)
I was 5 when it got cancelled. What I knew came mostly came from some random books at my grandparents. Strangely the one enemy I always knew (except for the Daleks) was the Sensorties. it really cannot be Overstated how bad the shows reputation was in this era. Noone ever spoke about it unless they were making fun of it. And all this was on TV or in magazines. No one at school ever spoke about it, except for my teachers during CiN 1993 because that was always a big event in primary schools - Our headmistress brought it up in assembly including offering out some spare 3d glasses for anyone who missed them in the magazine. I recall that most of the school drew blanks, by 1993 literally no child even knew what Doctor Who was: There was no selection of Doctor Who VHS's at video shops we were clamouring to rent. I did watch Dimensions with my teacher at least making me think Iwas missing out of something significant...Oddly for a 9 year old I loved Eastenders (I wasn't the only one, there was much to watch in those days aha) so that was reason enough to be excited, but needless to say I was utterly confused and not impresssed. And that would be the last time I gave Doctor Who any thought until 2005. Most children,even those several years older than me, gave it even less thought. Doctor Who died a rapid death and seemingly only got talked about by people wanting to mock it or give proof to why Britain was not good at Sci-Fi. As RTD said it's memory had degraded, and people were brutal to it...From my perspective I still cannot understand how RTD got away with bringing back the salt and pepper shakers...but I love that he did
Great documentary, Josh. For many there is a sadness that by around 1988/89 the show was on the cusp of greatness again. Had it been given a better slot in McCoy's era - who knows! Small point - Season 26 also aired on Wednesday.
TBH, while the writing and acting were on-point by S25 and S26 (except when McCoy just gurns as “angry”), the production quality wasn’t. Even though editing on the show had come a long way since 1963, it was still being recorded in the same way - a vision mixer switching between the outputs of 5 cameras. It needed either outsourcing to the independent sector or producing in-house more like a short film (like Who has been since 2005). Either way, it needed a real shot in the arm (maybe several?) to bring its production qualities into the 90s. CGI effects could only make it look modern to a limited extent. You can’t refurbish an old car while actually driving it, you need to take it off the roads, switch it off and take it to a garage to take it apart to work on it. That’s what happened to Who, they took it off TV and shut down the production operations so they could find someone who could work on refurbishing it. Star Trek TNG had already debuted in the US and would soon make its UK debut. I think that had the added effect of making the BBC insecure about their main sci-fi offering (though Red Dwarf would very soon take over that mantle once Classic Who finished).
A speculative video about Cinema Veritys take on DW would be interesting, as well as Saffron Productions. I'd guess there'd be little meat to the bone... but still. Verity might have taken it to its roots, Saffron may have pushed a Dalek Wars like program.
The first season with Sylvester did reinvigorate my excitement for the show, because it was so light-hearted and truly felt like a sick person who got well and now was full of energy. But I was afraid if it continued that way it would destroy the show. The course correction in the last season made one of the greatest seasons of the show, making me a lifelong fan of this Doctor. I do remember worrying that they might take the concept too far and do what they eventually did with the Timeless Children (ahem... Lungbarrow), but regardless, I still wish they'd kept up the momentum.
Doctor Who finding a resurgence in quality in its last two seasons really proves how genius the original concept of the show is; it can literally be and do anything and never get old even if it can be formulaic at times. No wonder expanded media in the wilderness years is popular amongst fans.
@@Harriet-Jesamine And I should add that the Jon Pertwee radio play was followed up in 1996 with another JP radio play which was also the same year of the Paul McGann movie. and if I'm not mistaken. helped jump start the fantastic Big Finish Audio plays all of which reinvigorated the franchise making the current TV series possible.
In the 90s, not long after the TVM aired, I had the opportunity to hobnob with one of the "higher ups" at the BBC. I mentioned Doctor Who and he went into a bit of a rant about how it was generally despised by BBC management and they were glad the TVM bombed. When I pointed out that the TVM had got 8.9 million viewers, proving that the audience would tune in if they had something new to watch, he demanded to know where I got that info from. I sheepishly said "Radio Times"...and he stormed off muttering about having to "Do something about that *****ng magazine". It wasn't just Grade and Cregeen. There was a general hatred of Doctor Who in BBC management at the time. Of course by the time 2005 came around many of the old guard had retired or moved on and the mangers were more favourable. Today, BBC management are proud of Doctor Who.
Wonderful video Josh. I totally understand your creative pattern as it's quite similar to mine. Make a few videos with plans of conquering the world, and then nothing for months. But I think it's a testament to the quality of your projects that even after months of radio silence, the moment you post something, we all flock to it. Awesome job. There's also something so captivating when any video you do touches on something from the wilderness years. That's some good stuff.
i vividly remember watching the 7th doctor on ABC as part of 'the afternoon show' and they were absolute bangers. at the time it was a case of hey we'll just wait around until next year for more new stories.... they did start repeating the 4th doctor each arvo for about 2 or 3 years and then ran pretty much every episode at 4 in the morning, that was when i figured out how to program the VHS for Dr Who and Thunderbirds.... LOLs. the 90's were wild!
80s and 90s america enjoyed dw more then 80s uk viewers did, plus we didnt repeat dw like the usa did, so people didnt get to see it again unless you reordered it or had the 90s vhs, and it being on a weekday
The host of the Afternoon Show did announce at the beginning of Season 26 (which aired in late 1990 or so in Australia) that it was the "final season" of Doctor Who. 13 year old me was stunned.
I was a huge fan at the time and remember the uncertainty over the show’s future. In retrospect I think the cancellation was probably the right decision, preserving enough interest in the show to fuel its return in 2005… even if that wasn’t the plan. Had the show limped onwards into the 90s (with no real support from the BBC), I think it would have ended for good. Having said that, it is hard to think of many BBC programs from 1986-1989 that generate as much interest (and revenue) for the BBC. It’s a show that has been sold worldwide to fans through at least three generations of media (VHS, DVD, and BluRay). Season 25 was just released as a BluRay box set. No doubt the series will continue to generate revenue in the coming years as new people continue to discover the classic series.
I am on the verge of investing in Sylvester McCoy's first season - got an Amazon voucher burning a hole... I already own Silver Nemesis as part of a box set, which is kinda cheap and cheerful but still fun. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens - especially with the Daleks..! I think there's an interesting conversation to be had around how the 'popularity' of Doctor Who in the late 80's compared to Star Trek - The Next Generation, which was a constant early evening weekday fixture on BBC2 during the same late 80's time frame, and was so much "more..."' - production-wise - than the final years of classic Doctor Who in all sorts of ways. I definitely remember setting the VCR for STTNG to watch when I got home in the evening, but had very little enthusiasm for catching post-hiatus Doctor Who - even though I could have tuned in at its later broadcast time. I think the World had kinda moved on through sheer disappointment at how Doctor Who had been mis-managed into no-existence, and even kids of the 60s / 70's who never missed a Saturday teatime episode, had all sorts of more evolved import series to choose from - on every channel - whilst the BBC kept everyone waiting [TWICE].
The BBC was killing it softly after the hiatus in the 80's. They wanted it to disappear. As a young boy, facing cancellation of your favourite show sucks - I hope Ncuti fans don't suffer if it gets cancelled again. 20 years of New Who is a solid run. Maybe after 61 years its time to let go and hit the reboot switch?
Big Finish Audios have made a range of audios called The Lost Stories and they are stories that are based on scripts that didn't get made. These include stories from the original seasons 23, 24 and 27 among others.
having owned all of them its season 22, 23, 27 a mix of colin bakers some are 4 parters which means possibly planned earlier, season 27 is all 4 parters no 3 parters as it would of happened
While 26 seasons is certainly nothing to scoff at, it really is such a shame that the show got cancelled/"put on hiatus" just as it was beginning a renaissance in quality
the director, wanted the show dead ,,,it was orginally cancelled in 1985 during colin baker tenure of dr who, it did return... for a few years...with a low budget and complaints of it being too cheap. even with fans worldwide and during the 1980s longleat house being packed with fandom,,, ,museum, merchandise being sold etc... this obviously did not matter to the director general, who really couldnt care less, the drama dept.. was programmes like chronicles of narnia, the house of eliot, etc that prob received some cash, from the cancellation of dr who ...being put into their budgets, and other tv series like the cleopatras, borgias etc...
It was so surprising and sad when Doctor Who unexpectedly ended in 1989. But on the other side of things, it's good that it ended in 2017. I saw the alternate reality where they kept making it after then, and trust me when I say that it's good to be in the timeline where it ended before that.
Fantastic info as usual! And fantastic dyslexia too! Haha - just teasin', I'm so irreputable. Great video, truly! I say this being only one third of the way through viewing!
Questions must be asked why Josh doesn't get millions of viewers on a fraction of the budget? That was a really well presented video. A lot more to it than "Michael Grade is evil!" or " have you seen the Twin dilema‽"
Pre-internet here so when they moved the night it was broadcast from year to year, no wonder viewers were down. I remember never knowing when it was on as you had to look in a newspaper for the TV guide.
The reason for this massive decline in ratings was the fact it was put up against the ratings juggernaut that was Coronation Street. The ratings in the 1980s first declined from an average of 9m to 7m viewers because of the launch of Channel 4. The new channel, aimed at a younger audience, had a massive impact on ratings across the board. However, when the show moved to Wednesday evenings opposite the aforementioned soap, the viewing figures slumped even further. I have a feeling that was the intention, so those in charge could justify why they could "cancel" the show.
Season 26, especially The Curse Of Fenric, earned my regards for the best possible note that the classic Doctor Who ended on. With more room on TV for new sci-fi shows like the new Star Treks, Red Dwarf, Quantum Leap and The X-Files, it was interesting getting into new mediums for the Whoniverse. For me it began with the Timewyrm novels, The Airzone Solution and episode 1 of P.R.O.B.E. Thank you, Josh. 👍🏻
In Tales of the TARDIS the 7th Doctor mentions that The Rani was involved right before Ace left and I can't stop thinking about the possibility that Dimensions in Time was Ace's last story.
I think the problem was scheduling. The show was put on at the same time as a very popular soap on ITV Coronation Street at 7.30 pm. My wife would watch Coronation Street and I would watch Doctor Who in our bedroom on our Black and white portable TV. I would record Doctor Who in colour on our VHS video recorder to watch later.
I wrote the BBC about Dr. Who's cancelation and got a very nice non-committal letter back. Sorry that the Beeb workers had to waste all that time and postage responding to a fan in America, but perhaps they were scared by that lawsuit and what the Americans would do since we are very litigious in the States. 😉
Watching the whole of S26 again, any of those stories I think could have fitted for Doctor Who's then final TV adventure. Battlefield-Has nostalgic elements as well as the Brigadier return. Ghost Light-Excellent subtext about change and evolution and how the past doesnt define us. The Curse of Fenric-The Doctor battling the ultimate evil. Survival-The Doctor facing against The Master. Anyone of these stories have a finality to them. 😊
The biggest issue Dr Who had back then was that the controller of BBC1 did not like it and wanted to shift the budget to a new soap he had planned to rival the one made by Granada. (something called Coronation Street --- the longest running TV soap in the world) In a bid to prove his point he took a show that had weekly ratings of 9+ million on a Saturday night (high for the UK) and rescheduled it into the same slot as Coronation St - which regularly hit 15m on a weeknight. All this in a time were most households had only one TV - so were mum and dad were happy for the kids to watch Dr Who at Saturday tea time they were less inclined for the kids to watch at primetime when THE soap of the week was on. This drop in viewers was used as the evidence that Dr Who had lost its viewership and the show was then allowed to rest and the money used to make the most depressing show on British prime time TV (except maybe Den telling Angie he wanted a divorce) At the same time in the USA shows like ST-TNG and Babylon 5 were just coming out and they had budgets per episode that were similar to the budget the BBC had in mind for a whole season of Dr Who. This led to Dr Who looking cheap in comparison.
I wasn't there, but speaking as a modern Doctor Who fan who's only just heard about the £30 million lawsuit. I mean I'd take being the butt of the joke here because that is mental!
I'm an American and loved Dr Who in the 80s. It played on the local public TV station in Houston...Channel 8. I watched through the Baker era twice....they repeated it...leaving me confused about the end of Logopolis. I mean, he turned into some blond guy....then it was back to Ark in Space. Eventually, they continued on to the Peter Davison era, then Colin Baker. They used to use the show for pledge drives. I remember Colin Baker having recorded a segment played in the pledge drive. I must confess, I didn't like the Colin Baker era at all, though I did like Peri. She looked great in that pink bikini. However, I liked Trial of a Time Lord. That was when Colin hit his stride and became likable. But I really liked McCoy a LOT. I loved his episodes, especially the more mysterious ones. Curse of the Fenric was amazing. Battlefield. Ghostlight. Survival. I was sad when it was cancelled.
Technically, it wasn't officially cancelled in 1989, just put on another hiatus. This was the excuse they used to justify giving it the Guinness World's Record for longest running science fiction television series. Yeah, it's all semantics.
Guinness used to list Stargate Sg-1 at a point i think. I remember coming across a old Guinness world record thibg saying that from 2006-2007. So Doctor Who should of still had the record at 26 years counting the classic series as a independent thing. So even if you count the classic series and new series a separate shows they must be the longest running and second longest running scifi shows. 26 and 20 years is a long long time for a tv show.
as a fan since 1967/68 may i say that sylvester mccoys 3 seasons I rate as follows... S1 oh dear not too good S2 wow that is way better love it and S3 BANG this is it....... what you are cancelling just as D7 arrives in style??????
The BBC had been looking for an excuse to dump Doctor Who since it began, but ever since the ratings skyrocketed with that first Dalek story, they didn't feel they could. Even Michael Grade directly attacking it could only do so much, although that is the period where the mortal blow was struck, with the coup d'gras being the idiotic idea of moving it from Saturdays to opposite Corry on Mondays. Talk about your death slots, that was a kamikaze slot.
In Australia we got Doctor Who in winter from Mondays to Thursday at 630pm My whole family would watch it even my mother - we got repeats often but none of us cared as long as Dr Who was on we didnt care what episode it was..
Josh I am at a loss as why the BBC don't hire you to do extras on their classic range DVD's as your content is so interesting and professional as well as engaging.
Excellent stuff as always Josh. I'm really sorry but I've tried so hard to try and convince myself that it was okay for the BBC to move on, even if they were crap at telling us...... but I can't, I just can't 😅 😅. I just keep thinking one more season, just one 😂❤❤
Was never really a fan of the Mc Coy era, However, I would rather watch very episode of his reign countless times on loop than watch a single second of the embarrassing monstrosity that this once great show has become. Great video. Cheers
That was a good video, and I have a question are you going to interview the people that worked on Doctor Who including 1989 cancellation? I think Ace was talking about her falling out with the 7th Doctor from the events of Love and War by Paul Cornell and I think that fits with her falling out with her Doctor.
That would be logical, but remember, these novels aren't considered canonical by the BBC. I think the fans who read are meant to know what happened, and the others meant to wonder. . .
Doctor Who was never canceled. It just wasn't renewed for a new season. That may sound the same to some people, but it's not. They wanted to avoid the same public outcry that happened in 85, so it just wasn't renewed for a new season until 2004.
The way I see it is “axed” means that they end production without the intention of reviving it. “Rested” means they either are intending to revive it later or are actively working at re-tooling it.
Imagine how upset the fans would be now after what they’ve tried to pass off as Dr Who over the last few years. Who would have thought it was better off cancelled.
Quick answer Thomas's success killed it. David Mitton knew how to make it work when this show got cancelled Thomas was already in its hay day, not to mention that Tugs came out around the same time even though it lasted for one season
They fired the guy who wanted to stay, told the guy who wanted to leave he couldn't, didn't want to invest significantly into the program because they were embarrassed by it, and they were embarrassed by it because they refused to invest enough into it.
I spoke to Steven Wyatt (the writer of "Paradise Towers" and "The Greatest Show in the Galaxy"), and he said that because of that the show's reputation was so low that they had to remove their work at Doctor Who from their CVs
"I think the show had seen better days" - TRANSLATION: "We haven't bothered watching it since Baker or Davison, we won't give it a bigger budget but will complain about how cheap it is, and hell; we don't even like it to begin with unless it gets us ITV Strike viewership"
I remember buying a DVD of Battlefield from my local bookshop. I watched it. I loved it. I played it endlessly. This was the DVD I brought with me on family trips. I watched the opening to Part 3 repeatedly. I loved it all: McCoy, Aldred, Courtney, the special effects, the explosions, the title sequence, THE KEFF MUSIC, all of it.
I'm so glad that both the McCoy and Colin Baker era are being re-evaluated and beloved more now, because they - the actors and the production team - deserve it. This era was made with so much love, thought and care. And yes, that includes the Kandyman.
It's funny how people often mention the Kandyman as some kind of tacky villian, but he stands so strongly in my mind as one of my first impressions of doctor who as a child, and I remember the doctor thwarting him with the lemonade like it was yesterday and thinking that was clever, even though I've probably only seen the story once.
@@Johno3998 Don't get me wrong, I love both the Kandyman and The Happiness Patrol. People think it is a dud story, but I disagree.
Battlefield: Ah yes, the serial where Sophie Aldred was nearly either drowned in a cracking glass tank or cut to ribbons if it broke. I still remember the outtakes from that, and McCoy's "GET HER OUT OF THERE!" as she was hauled to safety out of the tank.
@@ireallydidntwanttomakeanac575 Ah yes I hope my reply didn't come across as though I thought you were trashing it, I was picking up from your point as I've seen much discussion about it being a dud too, which I've never quite understood. Similarly I've seen much discussion about paradise towers being a dud but I always had a soft spot for how entertaining it is just because of how campy it was, and how some scenes ("All hail the great architect") come across as Python sketches to me and crack me up.
@@Johno3998 I heard someone say that Paradise Towers was the worst story of Season 24. They must be joking. I've only recently watched it and I love it to pieces. It is such a fun story. You can tell that this was the true changing of hands as Pip and Jane Baker's Time and the Rani was meant for Colin, so Paradise Towers is where Sylv really gets to delve into his own Doctor.
I think airing on Wednesdays of all days was the final nail in the coffin. Like theu wanted Doctor Who DEAD
Bet your bottom jelly baby that Disney will see to that...⚰️
@@luisreyes1963Let's hope so? ... I hate New Who!
I think we underestimate how much having portable TVs was starting to break up the idea of the family viewing experience. Someone must have though (or been convinced) that the Dr Who fans would follow the show, and probably were not the sort of people who watched Corrie anyway.
@meewarwoowoo I started watching Doctor Who and Coronation Street, in 1971! ... I still watch Corrie, but NOT garbage New Who!
@@marcse7en my word I can't imagine why.
The McCoy era with Ace was the one my kids loved the most when we were watching the series reruns together on American public television in the 1990s.
It was my era too.
The problem is that it was meant for adults!😂
Doctor Leonard "Bones" McCoy? 🙂
@@davidcritchley3509 no, it was meant for families. The way BBC budgets worked back then was Children's TV got an amount per hour (say £200k) Comedy got about the same, but Variety and Family productions got significantly more.
That is why at teh same time Dr Who was declining shows like "The Young Ones" which was really an alternative comedy and should have qualified for the lower budget, featured a musical number from a band (like Madness or Motorhead) which then qualified the show as variety not comedy and thus garnered the higher budget.
In the same way, Dr Who was a family show and got a higher budget than children's TV
Babe wake up! Josh Snares uploaded a new banger!
Simply put it:
JNT stayed on too long, he should have left with Peter Davison.
The Higher Ups didn’t like the show at all, but they hated JNT and wanted to hurt him by refusing his resignation and do everything to make sure the show died a slow painful death with him at the helm.
I honestly think if Dr Who was placed on Saturdays during the McCoy years it would have been massive.
More the BBC hated the show and set out to sabotage it
JNT has planned to leave after The Five Doctors the BBC asked him to stay on. In the Making of Doctor Who JNT says he's plans to leave at the end of Season 25. The BBC asked him to come back
and colin baker took the fall
He was supposed to leave after S23 too but the BBC asked him to stay on bc they couldn’t find anyone to replace him as no one wanted anything to do with DW at that time
I feel that if he'd left after Androzani, he'd be seen as one of the best Doctor Who producers of all time. Sure, there'd still be some real clunkers but he had given Tom Baker's final season a shot in the arm and given Tom a fitting final story....them much of Davison's time was very good with Androzani being absolutely outstanding. But, who else could have taken over? The BBC pretty much kept JNT in place when he wanted to move into soap opera production.
I know McCoy does have his critics, but I always felt that he was great and was saddened when he left. This is a great video that had me engrossed and reminding myself why I actually have great fondness for classic Who. I remembered an article in Empire magazine about The Hobbit titled "The 7th Doctor is the 3rd Wizard" and it made me happy to think how he is genuinely regarded, this video gave me that same feeling. Thank you for all your efforts.
"The many ends of Dorothy Gale McShane" - I am here for this video and I won't leave before I see it. Thank you.
Sylvester McCoy was my first Doctor, though I barely remember watching him as I was so young. I love how much pride he still has in the show, and his relationships with the other actors. I saw an interview with Paul McGann where he said that as soon as Ncuti Gatwa was announced as the new Doctor, Sylvester texted him saying “Scots:4 Scousers:2!!!!” 😂 He also made a lovely video congratulating Ncuti and welcoming him to the Doctor Who family. He just seems like such a wholesome man.
Yeah Sylv seems great! Meeting him next month at a convention in Aus!
@@JoshSnares Aw that’s awesome! I’d love to meet him! Enjoy!
Gatwa isn’t the Doctor any more than Whittaker was.
The Doctor ended with Capaldi.
All the others have been imposters sent from the Master to ruin the Time Lord’s good name.
@@sird2333 Gatwa and Whittaker are both as valid as all of the straight white male Doctors.
@@sird2333 My original reply vanished, but that was such an odd comment. Both Gatwa and Whittaker are every bit as valid as all of the previous actors who played The Doctor.
‘They have some sort of PTSD over the 1985 haters….” Josh, you nailed it! I *do* have PTSD over that era, not only because it was my favorite show, but because it had been around for SO long. It was one of those things that was always there. And for it to end so abruptly, it was a shock. But also - instead of the show ending definitively - they kept teasing that it might return, or that it was just on a hiatus…it died a slow death, which made it all the more painful.
14:18 "1985 hiatus", not haters...
I wasn't there for the '85 and '89 hiatuses (I would've been negative years old), but the fact that the BBC kept paying lip service by saying "Oh, it's not 'cancelled,' it's just 'on hiatus'" is something that I find especially gross and enraging. Why keep stringing people along like that? Would it of affected merch sales THAT dramatically? That's the only reason I can think of, unless they just wanted to be especially cruel.
@@Chord_ - You are very correct on feeling strung along. And to make matters worse, this was in a different era, when that sort of thing was more rare and didn't happen often. There were fewer media companies. Fans had less interaction with the producers than now, etc. So it especially stung in that era.
It was all part of the Valeyard's plot to steal The Doctor's remaining regenerations
You mean the boatyard.
that darn shipyard taking away everything we love :(
I know you were worried about what you said and that it was harsh, but I actually snorted when you said it and took no offense at all. The fandom can 100% be a lil dramatic sometimes and in the funniest ways I haven't really seen elsewhere. I also agree though they were right to be upset about the radio silence for so long without even a slither of information. I can imagine it was super daunting to see the writing on the wall but with no confirmation whatsoever and being stuck in limbo.
Doctor Who and Star Trek cannot coexist. Doctor Who got started before Star Trek, so it was able to build up some momentum during the Hartnell years. When Star Trek got started in 1966 Doctor Who didn't immediately suffer, but the timeline has retroactively corrected itself by purging most of the Troughton stories from history. Star Trek, in the meantime, constantly struggled in the ratings and was ultimately cancelled after three years.
After that cancellation, Doctor Who rose to new heights with the classic series reaching the peak of its popularity in the 1970s, however many people thought that things began going downhill towards the last couple of years of the Fourth Doctor's run, which occurred at the same time that the Star Trek movie series started.
Still, they were just movies, being released years apart, so Doctor Who was able to continue into the 1980s, but in a reduced status, which would hit its low point when the series was taken off the air for eighteen months from 1985 to 1986. Just as that hiatus was ending the Star Trek franchise would reach new levels of financial success with its fourth movie, The Voyage Home, and shortly after Doctor Who came back Star Trek would return to television with The Next Generation.
For a few years, then, Star Trek and Doctor Who co-existed, but it was a rough time for both franchises. The first two seasons of The Next Generation were infamously bad, as was the fifth movie, and Doctor Who had its episode count cut in half and its audience plummet. In 1989 Doctor Who was finally cancelled and TNG would receive a second wind with its third season, rising to new heights of popularity which would continue for the rest of the series' run and allow three spin-offs and five additional movies to be made throughout the '90s and early 2000s.
By the mid-2000s, though, Star Trek was on the decline, with both its most recent series, Enterprise, and movie, Nemesis, performing badly. This allowed Doctor Who to return to television in 2005 to great success. Star Trek would have a few movies in the years that followed, with each one performing worse than the last, but wouldn't return to television (well, streaming, really) until the premiere of Discovery in 2017.
That brings us to the situation we're in now, with both franchises on the air but both experiencing considerable amounts of audience push-back and declining popularity. The universe simply cannot allow both of these properties to exist simultaneously, and when they attempt to do so both of them suffer.
I remember when it got cancelled and I was surprised because I loved that era of the show. I think the Colin Baker era killed the brand in the mind of the public of the 80s and nothing could bring it back
Nothing quite like Ace attacking Daleks with a super charged baseball bat!
Sophie as Ace was quite an action heroine for the Whoniverse thanks to scenes like that. Seeing her use a slingshot with gold coins on the Cybermen was even better. I admired her line: "So who'll be next and who'll be lucky?"
I was only 9 so I may be misremembering, but I'm convinced that at the end of Survival part 4 they broadcast a message saying the show would be back. I waited and waited, it was probably 2-3 years later that it finally dawned on me that it wasn't coming.
The McCoy era was MY era. I was 7 when it started, I'd just got my own TV for my bedroom (mainly for playing games on my trusty Acorn Electron) and suddenly I didn't have to watch Coronation Street or EastEnders every night just because it was what my mum and dad wanted to do. I could do my own thing, and I think Doctor Who became a big part of that. It was MY thing, my little interest that I could indulge myself in without needing the approval or involvement of my parents and I found it at just the right age for that. I still love it to this day, not just because of nostalgia but also because (after an admitedly shaky start in season 24) it got really, really good and still holds up brilliantly now.
They didn’t put up such a message. Off-air BBC1 recordings of Survival Part 3 (it was a 3-parter) have the end credits playing out without any announcement about Who. Then IIRC it went into a trailer for Blackadder Goes Forth before starting Bergerac.
@stickytapenrust6869 There you go then. I WAS misremembering!
Also I can't believe I forgot Survival was a 3-parter - I literally watched it the other day. Must have been in a rush when I wrote that.
@@craigcharlesworth1538 Survival is pretty good and feels like a four parter!
Season 25 blu-ray boxed set out in the UK tomorrow. Nice timing with this video.
'Leave the girl. It's the man I want', is forever etched in my mind. 🖖🙂
Airing it against Corrie was the final nail in the coffin for DW at that time. The McCoy era especially the last 2 seasons were great.
Fun fact: the reason why McCoy had so little dialogue in The TV Movie is bc it was a request from Alan Yentob (BBC 1 controller 1993-1996) as he thought the McCoy era was the reason for DW’s cancellation in 89 and the other execs were hesitant to bring him back for that exact same reason too.
and then jnt complained said regeneration took too long would of been interesting though they said Mcgann on holiday bring back peter davison or colin baker to do a story
I think McCoy was treated very similarly to Baker; cut off, just as he was getting the hang of it. Both their eras had their shaky moments, but more than made up for them in moments of brilliance. It's tantalizing to think what might have happened had either been allowed to continue. . .
(For what it's worth, I was NOT a fan of the Virgin New Adventure novels that came after, but it was all we had at the time, and "Power of the Doctor" paying them lip-service, hinting at the Ace/Doctor fallout, and unambiguously reconciling them brought me closure, and a tear to my eye. "We're Ace!").
Something called "Doctor Who" will always be available. It has grown well beyond any one studio's power to cancel.
Cool vids by the way, keep 'em coming!
This video was generously edited by the happiness patrol 💖💖
😅😅💕💕
McCoy's first season was a bit off but it picked up afterwards pretty well, things got darker, more eerie and sinister. Not to mention remembrance of the daleks having the shocking cliff hanger of a dalek chasing the doctor up some steps to a locked door, as well as the hype of two factions against each other.
Josh, you've done it again! I am always in awe of the production values of these docs. You'd think you had a whole team of researchers and graphics people behind them!
I think the BBC at the time simply hated sci-fi, especially their own brand of low budget sci-fi; they saw it as low brow entertainment and not to put to fine a point to it they were elitist snobs! They axed Blake's 7 at the start of the '80's (which had much higher viewing figures than Dr Who did at the end), self sabotaged Star Cops around the mid '80's, then by the late 80's it was Dr Who's turn. They thought they should be spending money on endless period costume dramas and the like. In their supposed infinite wisdom they were very short sighted!
Sylvesters interview tape is super impressive. I am so glad to see this era getting its flowers now. Wish we could have gotten a season 27!
Also I never want to hear John Nathan Turner slander after he stuck around for years after his job was basically gone so he could keep Doctor Who alive. Sayward dragging his name through the mud bugs me to no end
I might be a crazy 7th Doctor fan boy, but I genuinely think the last two seasons are the highpoint on the original series, with literally only Silver Nemesis being a bum note (and even then, there's still lots of positives). Privately, I even extend that to season 24, but the world isn't ready to hear that yet.
I do think though, that if the show hadn't gone on hiatus, I can't imagine it running now - the hiatus built a bit of mythos around the show, moving it from a long-running show to something with almost legendary status. Fans built an identity and a community around the novels and other extended media, and I think that really deepens what it means to be a Who fan.
I like to see the last few seasons as a bonus - the decision to cancel it, consciously or not, was made a lot earlier. There was realistically nothing the show could do to save itself by that point, but by god did they make a brilliant attempt.
Love this!!
The sylvester McCoy era is up there with the best era of doctor who after a rocky start it really start to take shape once ace joined just a shame the bbc didn't see it that way why does the bbc doesn't support the show like it's awesome
The McCoy era makes the whole show memorable with just one line.... "Unlimited Rice Pudding"
The Sylvester McCoy era is often deemed as "too cheesy and 80s" by its detractors, but that's exactly why I love it.
Out of all the dreadful Whittaker episodes, one stood out for me, the one where it feels like an 80s episode in a quarry. The one with the space apartments and bad monster makeup lol.
yet another fantastic upload!
thank you CrispyPro
My first Classic Era story was Curse of Fenric. I had no idea what was going on in the storyline, but I was instantly drawn to the program
Coincidentally I was rewatching The Eaters of Light by Rona Munro who had earlier written Survival when this came up.
Sylvester McCoy's era was criminally under rated. The stories were a cut above the C Baker and Davison eras.
absolutely fantastic!👏
Having lived through this time and read the DWM articles when published, your video nicely sums up an era most newer fans are unfamiliar with. Something you show well is that the show was the deliberately scheduled to lower ratings. And hey, if you do a video on the many fates of Ace, I'd love to see it!
After Tom Baker I think it started to decline. That's why I prefer the modern day doctor Who David Tennant and Sam Smith
I watched Dr Who as a kid in the 70s, crying - according to my mother - when Dr Who destroyed the Daleks.
The Baker / Davidson / McCoy eras were hamstrung by poor scripts, small budgets and laughable sets and special effects.
A more contemporaneous example is Sherlock. A couple of fantastic seasons and then cliff-diving in quality (reminds me of Sliders - a cliff-dive once Arturo is killed off)
I was 5 when it got cancelled. What I knew came mostly came from some random books at my grandparents. Strangely the one enemy I always knew (except for the Daleks) was the Sensorties.
it really cannot be Overstated how bad the shows reputation was in this era. Noone ever spoke about it unless they were making fun of it.
And all this was on TV or in magazines. No one at school ever spoke about it, except for my teachers during CiN 1993 because that was always a big event in primary schools - Our headmistress brought it up in assembly including offering out some spare 3d glasses for anyone who missed them in the magazine. I recall that most of the school drew blanks, by 1993 literally no child even knew what Doctor Who was: There was no selection of Doctor Who VHS's at video shops we were clamouring to rent.
I did watch Dimensions with my teacher at least making me think Iwas missing out of something significant...Oddly for a 9 year old I loved Eastenders (I wasn't the only one, there was much to watch in those days aha) so that was reason enough to be excited, but needless to say I was utterly confused and not impresssed. And that would be the last time I gave Doctor Who any thought until 2005. Most children,even those several years older than me, gave it even less thought. Doctor Who died a rapid death and seemingly only got talked about by people wanting to mock it or give proof to why Britain was not good at Sci-Fi.
As RTD said it's memory had degraded, and people were brutal to it...From my perspective I still cannot understand how RTD got away with bringing back the salt and pepper shakers...but I love that he did
Great documentary, Josh. For many there is a sadness that by around 1988/89 the show was on the cusp of greatness again. Had it been given a better slot in McCoy's era - who knows!
Small point - Season 26 also aired on Wednesday.
I was just going to say the same thing. Great video though Josh.
TBH, while the writing and acting were on-point by S25 and S26 (except when McCoy just gurns as “angry”), the production quality wasn’t. Even though editing on the show had come a long way since 1963, it was still being recorded in the same way - a vision mixer switching between the outputs of 5 cameras.
It needed either outsourcing to the independent sector or producing in-house more like a short film (like Who has been since 2005). Either way, it needed a real shot in the arm (maybe several?) to bring its production qualities into the 90s. CGI effects could only make it look modern to a limited extent. You can’t refurbish an old car while actually driving it, you need to take it off the roads, switch it off and take it to a garage to take it apart to work on it. That’s what happened to Who, they took it off TV and shut down the production operations so they could find someone who could work on refurbishing it.
Star Trek TNG had already debuted in the US and would soon make its UK debut. I think that had the added effect of making the BBC insecure about their main sci-fi offering (though Red Dwarf would very soon take over that mantle once Classic Who finished).
11:14 praying that now people stop saying that Michael Grade cancelled the show in '89. He wasn't even at the BBC then!
Great vid as ever!
No but he did have blood on his hands for the outcomes.
No, he was responsible for the “original” cancellation in 1985, which turned out to be a longer than usual gap in seasons.
Can always count on Dr Who fans to mansplain things I clearly know lmao
I think his right hand man Jonathan Powell had a hand in the " cancellation "
Look, if I know when Grade left as BBC1 controller, chances are I know who replaced him.
A speculative video about Cinema Veritys take on DW would be interesting, as well as Saffron Productions.
I'd guess there'd be little meat to the bone... but still.
Verity might have taken it to its roots, Saffron may have pushed a Dalek Wars like program.
The first season with Sylvester did reinvigorate my excitement for the show, because it was so light-hearted and truly felt like a sick person who got well and now was full of energy. But I was afraid if it continued that way it would destroy the show. The course correction in the last season made one of the greatest seasons of the show, making me a lifelong fan of this Doctor. I do remember worrying that they might take the concept too far and do what they eventually did with the Timeless Children (ahem... Lungbarrow), but regardless, I still wish they'd kept up the momentum.
Another fantastic essay, thanks Josh. Stay fabulous!❤
Awesome Sylvester McCoy/Dr. Who button.
Doctor Who finding a resurgence in quality in its last two seasons really proves how genius the original concept of the show is; it can literally be and do anything and never get old even if it can be formulaic at times. No wonder expanded media in the wilderness years is popular amongst fans.
How the BBC hasnt hired you yet to make documentarys for the blu ray collection is GENUINLY beyond me.
they simply couldn't afford him 🧐
I keep telling Josh and the BBC the same thing
I actually would've liked the BBC to make broadcasted documentaries being presented by Josh, they should have done that last November.
Great video. Thank you.
We also had a Jon Pertwee radio play in 1993 for the 30th anniversary. It was way better than Dimensions in Time.
Good Comment
We must play some little games together, I like little games😊
@@Harriet-Jesamine And I should add that the Jon Pertwee radio play was followed up in 1996 with another JP radio play which was also the same year of the Paul McGann movie. and if I'm not mistaken. helped jump start the fantastic Big Finish Audio plays all of which reinvigorated the franchise making the current TV series possible.
but that got 10 millions viewers so the following was still there
@@alexianemp yes they mention that in making of sirens of time that jon pertwee started it by himself he died then big finish took over
In the 90s, not long after the TVM aired, I had the opportunity to hobnob with one of the "higher ups" at the BBC. I mentioned Doctor Who and he went into a bit of a rant about how it was generally despised by BBC management and they were glad the TVM bombed. When I pointed out that the TVM had got 8.9 million viewers, proving that the audience would tune in if they had something new to watch, he demanded to know where I got that info from. I sheepishly said "Radio Times"...and he stormed off muttering about having to "Do something about that *****ng magazine". It wasn't just Grade and Cregeen. There was a general hatred of Doctor Who in BBC management at the time. Of course by the time 2005 came around many of the old guard had retired or moved on and the mangers were more favourable. Today, BBC management are proud of Doctor Who.
As always, the length of your research and your friendly presentation style makes your documentaries superior. That phone call can't be far away
Fascinating details I hadn't known before Josh. The BBC's inexplicable actions back then still rankles today.
Wonderful video Josh. I totally understand your creative pattern as it's quite similar to mine. Make a few videos with plans of conquering the world, and then nothing for months. But I think it's a testament to the quality of your projects that even after months of radio silence, the moment you post something, we all flock to it. Awesome job. There's also something so captivating when any video you do touches on something from the wilderness years. That's some good stuff.
i think this is my sign to rewatch seasons 25 and 26
i vividly remember watching the 7th doctor on ABC as part of 'the afternoon show' and they were absolute bangers. at the time it was a case of hey we'll just wait around until next year for more new stories.... they did start repeating the 4th doctor each arvo for about 2 or 3 years and then ran pretty much every episode at 4 in the morning, that was when i figured out how to program the VHS for Dr Who and Thunderbirds.... LOLs. the 90's were wild!
80s and 90s america enjoyed dw more then 80s uk viewers did, plus we didnt repeat dw like the usa did, so people didnt get to see it again unless you reordered it or had the 90s vhs, and it being on a weekday
The host of the Afternoon Show did announce at the beginning of Season 26 (which aired in late 1990 or so in Australia) that it was the "final season" of Doctor Who. 13 year old me was stunned.
I was a huge fan at the time and remember the uncertainty over the show’s future. In retrospect I think the cancellation was probably the right decision, preserving enough interest in the show to fuel its return in 2005… even if that wasn’t the plan. Had the show limped onwards into the 90s (with no real support from the BBC), I think it would have ended for good.
Having said that, it is hard to think of many BBC programs from 1986-1989 that generate as much interest (and revenue) for the BBC. It’s a show that has been sold worldwide to fans through at least three generations of media (VHS, DVD, and BluRay). Season 25 was just released as a BluRay box set. No doubt the series will continue to generate revenue in the coming years as new people continue to discover the classic series.
It's been a while, Josh. Well done you. Good one.
I am on the verge of investing in Sylvester McCoy's first season - got an Amazon voucher burning a hole... I already own Silver Nemesis as part of a box set, which is kinda cheap and cheerful but still fun. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens - especially with the Daleks..!
I think there's an interesting conversation to be had around how the 'popularity' of Doctor Who in the late 80's compared to Star Trek - The Next Generation, which was a constant early evening weekday fixture on BBC2 during the same late 80's time frame, and was so much "more..."' - production-wise - than the final years of classic Doctor Who in all sorts of ways. I definitely remember setting the VCR for STTNG to watch when I got home in the evening, but had very little enthusiasm for catching post-hiatus Doctor Who - even though I could have tuned in at its later broadcast time. I think the World had kinda moved on through sheer disappointment at how Doctor Who had been mis-managed into no-existence, and even kids of the 60s / 70's who never missed a Saturday teatime episode, had all sorts of more evolved import series to choose from - on every channel - whilst the BBC kept everyone waiting [TWICE].
The BBC was killing it softly after the hiatus in the 80's. They wanted it to disappear. As a young boy, facing cancellation of your favourite show sucks - I hope Ncuti fans don't suffer if it gets cancelled again. 20 years of New Who is a solid run. Maybe after 61 years its time to let go and hit the reboot switch?
Big Finish Audios have made a range of audios called The Lost Stories and they are stories that are based on scripts that didn't get made. These include stories from the original seasons 23, 24 and 27 among others.
having owned all of them its season 22, 23, 27 a mix of colin bakers some are 4 parters which means possibly planned earlier, season 27 is all 4 parters no 3 parters as it would of happened
It was such a shame as Sylvester McCoy had nailed the role in his second season along with Sophie.
While 26 seasons is certainly nothing to scoff at, it really is such a shame that the show got cancelled/"put on hiatus" just as it was beginning a renaissance in quality
the director, wanted the show dead ,,,it was orginally cancelled in 1985 during colin baker tenure of dr who, it did return...
for a few years...with a low budget and complaints of it being too cheap. even with fans worldwide and
during the 1980s longleat house being packed with fandom,,, ,museum, merchandise being sold etc...
this obviously did not matter to the director general, who really couldnt care less,
the drama dept..
was programmes like chronicles of narnia, the house of eliot, etc
that prob received some cash, from the cancellation of dr who ...being put into their budgets, and other tv series like
the cleopatras, borgias etc...
It was so surprising and sad when Doctor Who unexpectedly ended in 1989.
But on the other side of things, it's good that it ended in 2017. I saw the alternate reality where they kept making it after then, and trust me when I say that it's good to be in the timeline where it ended before that.
I love your content . You do a fabulous job . Keep it up . Love from Canada 🇨🇦 🙌
1:15 The pure RESTRAINT in not saying "regenerate" here is a masterclass in willpower.
Fantastic info as usual!
And fantastic dyslexia too! Haha - just teasin', I'm so irreputable.
Great video, truly! I say this being only one third of the way through viewing!
I’m not dyslexic - not sure what you’re on about here haha
But thanks for watching!
Questions must be asked why Josh doesn't get millions of viewers on a fraction of the budget?
That was a really well presented video. A lot more to it than "Michael Grade is evil!" or " have you seen the Twin dilema‽"
if TH-cam could just send me 100K subscribers we can get this party started 😅
Thank you!
This. I was astonished to see he only has 29k subscribers.
Ah, the era I'm most fascinated by! Thank you for giving it the coverage I feel it deserves
you failed to mention the personal animus between colin baker and Michael grade
No I didn’t, it’s in the video haha
i guess i missed it. maybe went to the restroom?@@JoshSnares
@@JoshSnares still liked your video. you are entertaining.
Pre-internet here so when they moved the night it was broadcast from year to year, no wonder viewers were down.
I remember never knowing when it was on as you had to look in a newspaper for the TV guide.
This is an excellent documentary. Well put and even handed. (New subscriber)
Thank you!
The reason for this massive decline in ratings was the fact it was put up against the ratings juggernaut that was Coronation Street. The ratings in the 1980s first declined from an average of 9m to 7m viewers because of the launch of Channel 4. The new channel, aimed at a younger audience, had a massive impact on ratings across the board. However, when the show moved to Wednesday evenings opposite the aforementioned soap, the viewing figures slumped even further. I have a feeling that was the intention, so those in charge could justify why they could "cancel" the show.
yeah 1985 attack of the cyberman about 6 million according to wiki
Season 26, especially The Curse Of Fenric, earned my regards for the best possible note that the classic Doctor Who ended on. With more room on TV for new sci-fi shows like the new Star Treks, Red Dwarf, Quantum Leap and The X-Files, it was interesting getting into new mediums for the Whoniverse. For me it began with the Timewyrm novels, The Airzone Solution and episode 1 of P.R.O.B.E. Thank you, Josh. 👍🏻
In Tales of the TARDIS the 7th Doctor mentions that The Rani was involved right before Ace left and I can't stop thinking about the possibility that Dimensions in Time was Ace's last story.
After that awful episode, I’d want to leave the TARDIS too!! Haha
I think the problem was scheduling. The show was put on at the same time as a very popular soap on ITV Coronation Street at 7.30 pm. My wife would watch Coronation Street and I would watch Doctor Who in our bedroom on our Black and white portable TV. I would record Doctor Who in colour on our VHS video recorder to watch later.
A top video Josh. Well done!!!!
I wrote the BBC about Dr. Who's cancelation and got a very nice non-committal letter back. Sorry that the Beeb workers had to waste all that time and postage responding to a fan in America, but perhaps they were scared by that lawsuit and what the Americans would do since we are very litigious in the States. 😉
Watching the whole of S26 again, any of those stories I think could have fitted for Doctor Who's then final TV adventure.
Battlefield-Has nostalgic elements as well as the Brigadier return.
Ghost Light-Excellent subtext about change and evolution and how the past doesnt define us.
The Curse of Fenric-The Doctor battling the ultimate evil.
Survival-The Doctor facing against The Master.
Anyone of these stories have a finality to them. 😊
The biggest issue Dr Who had back then was that the controller of BBC1 did not like it and wanted to shift the budget to a new soap he had planned to rival the one made by Granada. (something called Coronation Street --- the longest running TV soap in the world)
In a bid to prove his point he took a show that had weekly ratings of 9+ million on a Saturday night (high for the UK) and rescheduled it into the same slot as Coronation St - which regularly hit 15m on a weeknight.
All this in a time were most households had only one TV - so were mum and dad were happy for the kids to watch Dr Who at Saturday tea time they were less inclined for the kids to watch at primetime when THE soap of the week was on.
This drop in viewers was used as the evidence that Dr Who had lost its viewership and the show was then allowed to rest and the money used to make the most depressing show on British prime time TV (except maybe Den telling Angie he wanted a divorce)
At the same time in the USA shows like ST-TNG and Babylon 5 were just coming out and they had budgets per episode that were similar to the budget the BBC had in mind for a whole season of Dr Who. This led to Dr Who looking cheap in comparison.
I wasn't there, but speaking as a modern Doctor Who fan who's only just heard about the £30 million lawsuit. I mean I'd take being the butt of the joke here because that is mental!
Another great video Josh.
Remember being a fan of BBCs "The Tripods" with the season 2 ending ...
I'm an American and loved Dr Who in the 80s. It played on the local public TV station in Houston...Channel 8. I watched through the Baker era twice....they repeated it...leaving me confused about the end of Logopolis. I mean, he turned into some blond guy....then it was back to Ark in Space. Eventually, they continued on to the Peter Davison era, then Colin Baker. They used to use the show for pledge drives. I remember Colin Baker having recorded a segment played in the pledge drive.
I must confess, I didn't like the Colin Baker era at all, though I did like Peri. She looked great in that pink bikini.
However, I liked Trial of a Time Lord. That was when Colin hit his stride and became likable.
But I really liked McCoy a LOT. I loved his episodes, especially the more mysterious ones. Curse of the Fenric was amazing. Battlefield. Ghostlight. Survival.
I was sad when it was cancelled.
Technically, it wasn't officially cancelled in 1989, just put on another hiatus. This was the excuse they used to justify giving it the Guinness World's Record for longest running science fiction television series. Yeah, it's all semantics.
Also, didn't William Russell win an award for the longest gap between appearances as the same character in the "same show"?
Guinness used to list Stargate Sg-1 at a point i think. I remember coming across a old Guinness world record thibg saying that from 2006-2007. So Doctor Who should of still had the record at 26 years counting the classic series as a independent thing.
So even if you count the classic series and new series a separate shows they must be the longest running and second longest running scifi shows. 26 and 20 years is a long long time for a tv show.
Brilliant video! I think we got closure with Power of the Doctor. I am happy with that.
as a fan since 1967/68 may i say that sylvester mccoys 3 seasons I rate as follows... S1 oh dear not too good S2 wow that is way better love it and S3 BANG this is it....... what you are cancelling just as D7 arrives in style??????
the first mccoy they was told late that there would be a series adding comedy to make it light
The BBC had been looking for an excuse to dump Doctor Who since it began, but ever since the ratings skyrocketed with that first Dalek story, they didn't feel they could. Even Michael Grade directly attacking it could only do so much, although that is the period where the mortal blow was struck, with the coup d'gras being the idiotic idea of moving it from Saturdays to opposite Corry on Mondays. Talk about your death slots, that was a kamikaze slot.
Sophie’s book on Ace is amazing
Hear hear
In Australia we got Doctor Who in winter from Mondays to Thursday at 630pm My whole family would watch it even my mother - we got repeats often but none of us cared as long as Dr Who was on we didnt care what episode it was..
Josh I am at a loss as why the BBC don't hire you to do extras on their classic range DVD's as your content is so interesting and professional as well as engaging.
Thank you! I think being in Australia makes me a bit too far away!
Very excellent video. I’d love if the tv movie got one of these.
Excellent stuff as always Josh. I'm really sorry but I've tried so hard to try and convince myself that it was okay for the BBC to move on, even if they were crap at telling us...... but I can't, I just can't 😅 😅. I just keep thinking one more season, just one 😂❤❤
Was never really a fan of the Mc Coy era, However, I would rather watch very episode of his reign countless times on loop than watch a single second of the embarrassing monstrosity that this once great show has become. Great video. Cheers
That was a good video, and I have a question are you going to interview the people that worked on Doctor Who including 1989 cancellation? I think Ace was talking about her falling out with the 7th Doctor from the events of Love and War by Paul Cornell and I think that fits with her falling out with her Doctor.
That would be logical, but remember, these novels aren't considered canonical by the BBC. I think the fans who read are meant to know what happened, and the others meant to wonder. . .
Doctor Who was never canceled. It just wasn't renewed for a new season. That may sound the same to some people, but it's not. They wanted to avoid the same public outcry that happened in 85, so it just wasn't renewed for a new season until 2004.
The way I see it is “axed” means that they end production without the intention of reviving it.
“Rested” means they either are intending to revive it later or are actively working at re-tooling it.
Imagine how upset the fans would be now after what they’ve tried to pass off as Dr Who over the last few years. Who would have thought it was better off cancelled.
I hope you will cover the original novels that carried fans over until the return of the Doctor to television in 2005.
Quick answer Thomas's success killed it. David Mitton knew how to make it work when this show got cancelled Thomas was already in its hay day, not to mention that Tugs came out around the same time even though it lasted for one season
Imagine telling a 1989 fan that 2024 Doctor Who is released midnight on a Saturday and is only 8 episodes long. 🫣🫣
LOL i suffer from DW PTSD lol you always hit the nail on the head josh lol love your uploads
Hahaha thanks!
Have you read Paul Magrs book "Diary of a Doctor Who Fan?" I'm immediately reminded of his constant talk about 'The show'
Putting it opposite Corrie did not help at all