Had my 88k miles 3.4S 2½ years now. Had it scoped pre-purchase, regularly changed the oil, a year ago had a Millers oils analysis and still no sign of it. Pick a good one and it's not a worry.
100 agree. Had a 996 and 997.1S. One had bore scoring, one would likely have it.Have a 987.1 base and love knowing of all the problems to worry about, bore score isn’t one. Whenever I try to share my experiences on the internet, I get a lot of pushback….from non Porsche owners. Those who know, know. Thanks and best to you!
This is exactly why i am going with a cayman 987.1 base. Thankfully ive had enough time to research all the issues with the 987.1. Glad someone out here is telling the uncomfortable truth!!! Thank you
One possible prescription to prevent bore scoring: 1. Use Redline 5-40 synthetic. It leaves an oil film for a longer time on the cylinder walls. Will help smooth the start-up. 2. Warm the engine for 2-4 minutes depending on ambient temperature. 3. Don’t track the car. Good discussions on Redline in the forums if you are not familiar with this very excellent oil. Motul 300 synthetic would make a good alternate choice.
@@ramiller2187 Actually they warn you to NOT warm up the engine by idling but drive slowly. Also her in Norway all cars have heaters in the engine block to warm up the water and engine in the winter. I would think having a engine heater like that heating it up before starting would help?
@ Just expressing my 2 cents here and I recognize I’m probably in the minority on this. But these are boxer engines and because their cylinders lie flat, it is best to warm them up before taking off to make sure they are properly lubed. (Same goes for other boxer engines such as Subaru.) Yes, I know it says in the Porsche owners manuals to not warm up the engines. But I’ve heard experienced Porsche techs say almost all these motors from the affected years end up getting bore scoring at some point. So to me, what’s in the owners manual on this can’t possibly be good advice. Yikes, did I really say that? Because these engines have this known defect, I think it probably best to not track the car. It is well known that tracking any car, not just Porsches, puts far more stress and wear on the internal engine components. If you own a car that already has a reputation for bore scoring, you are rolling the dice for more serious engine problems than you would have otherwise. Again, just voicing my opinion here.
Thanks Joe, partly due to your videos I put my ego in check and today a proud owner of a lovely red Cayman 2007 2.7l for the sake of half a second faster acceleration both vehicles sound the same run the same look the same it's just not worth the headache and the financial burden that the S version can put up on you!
Simple solution to those who are genuinely worried about bore scoring in the S models…get a base 2.7. They are super fun and won’t kill you or your wallet!
@@windyrun7979 Yes, it seems to be a “S” specific problem. The cylinder walls are thinner on the 3.4 motors and it’s harder to dissipate heat. Typically bore scoring will occur in cylinders 4-5-6. I believe the piston material was different as well. The motors in the 3.2 Boxsters don’t seem to suffer the same fate.
Lol. I've got a 981. But the 2.7 is plenty fast. Keep it over 4k rpms and it flies. Handles the same...looks the same. Only on a track is there a difference
@@JoeTalksCarsI'm so happy that I put my ego in check. I can't believe I was disregarding this incredible 2.7 6 cylinder engine... The 3.4 is only a good purchase if you are prepared to do the work on it yourself! And you have to be able to rebuild the engine yourself.
Hello Joe. To be fair these model year Porsches (at least on our side of the pond) were all hyped up on IMS failure. To be honest I researched before I purchased my CS ,payed for a pre purchase inspection but it was not done at a Porsche independent shop or dealer so no scoping, and even bought it with high mileage to avoid IMS issues. It has only been in the last 2-3 years that I have seen so much emphasis on bore scoring. Car now is close to 105k and scared me since for the first time I had to top off the oil. Oh well, If they say it’s not a question of if but when then all us CS owners are in for a rough reckoning. I have been for a while seriously considering when that happens just to bite the bullet and bore out the engine for more power. Does it make financial sense? Of course not. But then again these cars are not purchased with a rational and utilitarian purpose. These are our toys. Life is short . Sometimes we have to pay the price to play.
987.1 CS received the third generation of IMS. It's a sealed bearing and located inside the shaft. So Do Not Touch. Failure rate is less than 1% so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Bore scoring is much more prone. For me, excessive oil usage is No.1 indicator. It's does a digital reading every time you start the vehicle. Reason why it's not a dip stick that can be neglected to monitor. Second is if there's blue smoke coming out of one tailpipe. Bore soring happens to one or two cylinders all in one side bank. Keep in mind pipes are crossed. Certainly boring to 4.2l if it happens. Paying for it at the pump but you'll have a smile on your face.
No, this model year of Porsche wasn't hyped up re IMS failure, that was earlier cars. These cars have pretty reliable IMS bearings but if they are going to go, they'll go at higher miles. High miles on an M97 with the big bearing does not take you away IMS failure. It takes you towards it, albeit the risks are low and the engine is far more likely to fail with scoring long before the bearing goes.
Such a good comment! Thank you! Some it seems are able to cruise right up to and over 100k miles without issue. In some ways it does seem to be the lower mileage examples that go. Mine only had 40k on it and most I’ve seen tend to be around that. Oil use is meant to be fairly high on these so wouldn’t worry unless it’s guzzling. Mine was drinking litres and litres before the sounds and ultimately engine failure. Hope all goes well with your car and it gives you lots of smiles per mile!
I am convinced! Anyways all porsche engine have some serious issues up to 991 GT3. We don't know what 992 gen 911 will have an engine issue or not since it is too early stage of its production. I would rather choose to purchase cayman s 2012 mk2 and enjoy it. if it helps to have bore scoring issue then I will think about what I am going to do later. Until then I will take care my baby and enjoy it!
@@flat6crochello. I’m looking forward to buy a 2006 987.1 2.7 L Cayman (66.000 kms total on the engine). I am a little bit worried about bore scoring, if there’s any and very worried about that IMS fail. Can someone explain me if my concerns are not justified and why? Thank you so much.
Great honesty. I think that the love of the brand does cloud the perceptions of reality of many proud owners. Also the Hartech and Ninmeister written report that declared only 5% is now about 6 or 7 years old!
Hey Joe! Funny you should make this video....PCA did a video about bore scoring, i hear about it all over the interwebs but Porsche mechanics i know contradict all the noise i hear about it. i think or (hope) i dodged a bullet, i change my oil every 6 months im going to pre-emptively change my AOS, and all the tubes this weekend because i figure, 17 year old car, 17 year old parts. The one thing that does frighten me is that the car came with 0 service records but im not a professional mechanic but i checked the car out myself and i took a chance and 4 years later, its pretty damn reliable. i did a ton of research on these cars before i bought it and i went with my gut. so far, she hasnt let me down yet.
The coolant pumps are a bit of a weak spot too, fiddly to replace but not too difficult for an experienced amateur. Good quality after market pumps are available too at very reasonable cost.
The interesting thing I took from video 4 in that series is that the rebuild specialists shop was taking 12 engines a week. That's around 600 a year. If there's only a few other shops doing rebuilds on this scale then that's thousands of engines a year in the US.
Yeah I just woke up one day and thought I needed to make it. Mine has been good other than the bore score! Hope yours continues that way! Sounds like you have got a good one!
Presumably, the 2.7 cayman doesn’t suffer bore score issues just as the 2.7 Boxster doesn’t. Buy a 2.7, get a sports exhaust fitted, increases the hp by about 20-25…..drives beautifully. Good luck with your car Joe, at least you know there’s no high cost other issues to probably worry about.
One possible prescription to prevent bore scoring: 1. Use Redline 5-40 synthetic. It leaves an oil film for a longer time on the cylinder walls. Will help smooth the start-up. 2. Warm the engine for 2-4 minutes depending on ambient temperature. 3. Don’t track the car. Good discussions on Redline in the forums if you are not familiar with this very excellent oil. Motul 300 synthetic would make a good alternate choice.
Not tracking the car seems a shame:( is that due to heat? Surely they like to be tracked providing they are warmed up and serviced ect. Mine will be heading to the Nurburgring soon.
From everything I have researched I would also draw the same conclusion, because it is fundamentally a mechanical wear issue, bore scoring is a matter of when, not if.
The best way to avoid this problem is to buy a car that has had the engine rebuilt using Nikasil coated cylinder liners such as by Hartech, on at least cylinders 4,5 & 6. This removes the potential for bore scoring. The problem is that the Locasil liners used by Porsche are prone to scoring, and the larger the bore size of the engine, the worse that gets. Therefore the 2.7 is probably OK, whereas the 3.8 in the Carrera S is almost certain to suffer scoring, and the 3.2 sits somewhere in the middle of that probability scale. The Nikasil coating is much more effective and, as far as I'm aware, there have been no bore scoring issues at all with these liners, and Hartech do a lot of rebuilds. Bear in mind that a car that had its engine rebuilt using new standard Porsche Lokasil liners is just as likely to fail again over time, as the original engine was!! I'm constantly amazed that the Hartech rebuilt cars aren't valued much more highly, because they're effectively just as reliable as the second generation models, particularly if they have the newest IMS bearing as well. Basically cars with that newest IMS and Nikasil liners, are a steal at current values!
Agreed with everything and I would certainly consider a rebuilt car. However I’d avoid the Gen 1 cars are affected so it wasn’t a roll of the dice. Mines on steel liners built by Strasse in Leeds. Highly regarded as one of the best Porsche builders in the country. Interesting that they use steel and Hartech have their own material. I’m not saying Hartech isn’t the way to go but there is a lot of talk on forums saying they have the only liners worth having. Convenient business model right there.
@@JoeTalksCars the problem with steel liners is that steel expands and contracts at a different rate to the aluminium block as it heats up and cools down, so there could be issues with head gasket integrity over time and obviously the piston gaps could be problematic too because the pistons weren't designed for steel liners. Nikasil coated aluminium liners seem to me to be the best solution for long term peace of mind. In all other 911 engines, Porsche use coated/aluminium liners, but not Lokasil, it's the Lokasil that seems like a big part of the problem with these particular engines. Porsche used Nikasil coating before the M96/97 and they use Alusil liners now because Nikasil has been phased out due to environmental issues in the manufacturing process.
I got my 2006 Cayman S 2 months ago, it came with a receipt for a new short block fitted by Porsche 8 years/15k miles ago! Original Engine died at 48K. Hopefully that's my insurance... Not using any oil as yet and it's had a clean bill of health from a specialist, so I'm going to get on and enjoy it. Ultimately, I'm not even sure if a borescope will definitively identify this problem. And, I genuinely don't believe every car will suffer from this. There are cars out there with well over 100k miles and the original engine. It's a bit like the BMW nikasil issue, some cars will die, some will live on. Whether that's down to oil, servicing, usage,driving style of plain old luck, that's the way it is.
Mine went at 48k or at least around then. Such a bad design, servicing and driving style definitely comes into it as you said but driving style isn’t something that can be measured when buying used. To be honest I’ve never heard about the BMW issue, will Google it now. Interesting.
Great news!!! Enjoy your car! I’m sure you will, love a 2.7 and if I could change anything it would be that I had one and not the S. bore score is too much to cope with.
My local specialist told me it's not if but when with these engines. My 2005 3.2 Boxster S had bore scoring and it was devastating to be told my £11k car had a £10k problem. A pre purchase inspection including a bore scope of all bores is absolutely essential.
@@JoeTalksCars I got rid of the car. It happened roughly the same time as yours so it was interesting to see the similar thought process of weighing up between getting rid and keeping such an amazing car. I was surprised how stressful it was. These cars do get under your skin don't they. I'm now nearly back to the point of being able to buy again and it has put me off getting another Porsche at this price range to be honest.
You’re correct. All 987.1 will suffer from Bore scoring. I’m maintaining to prevent/prolong it by using Liqui Moly 5w 40(molybdenum disulphides) and fill up with top tier gas (High detergent keeps fuel injectors spray evenly). 987.1 are now 17 years old and accumulating over 100,000 kms where bore scoring will rear its ugly head. Some will pay the heavy costs and have it rebuild but others will discard it for parts only. Leaving less and less available. So in the near future, the value of the 987.1 still standing will be higher. The price gap between 987.2 and 987.1 will close. I’m already seeing low milage 987.1 selling same as 987.2 high milage.
These M96 and M97 engines (which were built between '97 - '08) are prone to four major faults; bore scoring, d-chunk of cylinder wall, IMS bearing failure and cylinder head cracking. Any of these faults will likely necessitate a rebuild. The engines were installed on 911, Boxster and Cayman. Nice Porsches but not without risk. New 9A1 engine was developed for '09 model year to mitigate these issues.
@@JoeTalksCars It was quickly apparent in the 90's but Porsche kept producing them for 10 years and got away with it because of their rich clientele that are willing to pay absurd amounts of money and pretend it is normal. It's all done with a wink and a smile; selling them scorred and abused, you know we know, we know you know, but this is Porsche with "heritage" and "social status". It's disgusting. As disgusting as BMW selling crank hub without a keyway for 10 years on N54, N55 and S55 engines.
And that’s why the 987.2 with the 2.9 engine is the best choice if you want a 987. No bore scoring, no IMS, no direct injection leading to carbon buildup on the valves.
My 07 987C Base Tiptronic seems to use no oil at all. No blue smoke. I change the oil my elf every 5000 miles. It has 170,000 mile on it now. I do wonder if bore scoring is more common with stick shift ONLY because previous owners could have possible over revved it a number of times. It's impossible to over rev with the Tiptronic transmission.
Both Porsche SA’s in my region said that 100% of 911’s and 986/987’s with silicon impregnated engines will eventually experience bore scoring. More importantly, they are not allowed to sell them preowned because Porsche knows this will happen eventually and has instructed them not to sell them preowned. Even more worrying, they say they’re seeing it newer models not previously suspected of having this problem experiencing bore scoring.
My cayman s 987.1 has had bore scoring for four years now. Consumes a litre of oil with every full tank of fuel…I’ve learnt to live with it. As long as the oil level is good you can thrash the engine as much as you like. I drive it very hard and hit the redline 2-3 times on every drive. Still works like a charm and no loss of power. The only observable symptom of bore score (and this is my opinion) is a certain resonance from the engine at load between 3-4k rpm while pulling. So yeah, I’m not that bothered to be honest
That’s mad how much it’s burning tho. Do you not worry about the cats and all the other parts of the engine that are going to be affected by the very poor running?
So far no issues with the cat. The car has been passing emissions and no cel either. There is soot around the pipes and bumper area but cleans with every wash. I’ve changed the coils and plugs two years ago..they were caked I admit, but there was no difference in performance with the new plugs like I thought. I tried oil additives like ceratec…and they did make a difference but the effect wore off quickly as the car can’t retain oil. I hesitate from boring out the engine…not entirely due to price but also as I feel it won’t feel factory if I do. Like I said…there are no perceivable issues. The car is perfectly drivable/livable.
I purchased my 997, knowingly, with bore scoring. I got it cheap because of it. Bore scoring is an opportunity to buy a cheap car, get it repaired better than OEM. I would look for a car with bore scoring is my advice.
I see your point, cheap. However, the previous owner has worked the engine hard and maybe over revs too. An owner like that won’t be caring for the Porsche. They just want to red line it every time. Things like oil changes and other maintenance both cosmetic and mechanical will likely be neglected. How’s the condition of the body and interior. After the rebuilt, you’ll probably want to address these other neglected area of the car. Or maybe not and just track the thing until it needs another rebuilt.
@@josephlim8941 Bore scoring doesn’t work like that. Bore scoring is caused by hot spots in the engine which is a fundamental flaw in the design it’s self, that’s why it normally happens on one side and not the other. Bore scoring can happen anytime in any place. So the items you listed are not relevant to bore scoring. Bore scoring has very little relevance on how someone has treated the car. Over revs are normally monitored and recorded on turbo based engines and not so much on normally aspirated. Your correct on the other condition factors but they apply to any car you buy. If it’s not in great condition the price will reflect it. I had full Porsche service history on the car I purchased and the bore scoring happened at 82,000. The car then sat for 2 years which caused more issues due to not moving rather than how it was treated. I now have a full Hartech engine rebuild and a fully sorted car for less than £30k, with no concerns over bore scoring, although I must admit I have spent money on areas which weren’t needed 🤣😂 Sports exhaust, new suspension etc, purely my choice.
Rare is the seller that would admit that. This is porsche, we all pretend they are best engineered engines ever made and give you a wink and a smile while asking 40 thousand euros price.
Hi Joe. I can assure you most dealers are happy to have their cars bore checked by a recognised fixed base Porsche specialist. If not can walk away. The cost of this is £150-300 depending on location. Most aftermarket warranty providers will not cover bore score as it's a known fault. Tiptonics are far more prone as the heat from the box transfers to the flywheel and the engine runs hotter especially in traffic.
@@JoeTalksCars You would be surprised- but agree walk away if they say no. Most Porsche specialist dealers would check a car for scoring before buying it in or retailing it for a customer on sale or return. I bought my 997.1 C2S privately after a clear borescope, but with a view it would likely need to be rebuilt long term regardless- as it's a keeper i would see the value in a rebuild and the huge saving over a similar low mileage manual 997.2 (which have suffered rarer scoring cases themselves).
I seem to be one of the fortunate ones…..3 years of trouble free driving (inc many track days) in my 987.1 S. 53k miles. 🫣 Great vid as always tho Joe! People do need to do their homework when buying a 2nd hand sports car, of any kind! Then treat it like your first born! ☺️
@@sadbuttrue931 nope….i do however have it looked over by my local Porsche specialist (independent) before every track day, just to make sure its in tip top condition. 👍
I’ve seen a 987.1 (2007) with 96k miles in immaculate condition in silver. Every MOT passed with minor advisories and it’s under 13k with full service history Should I go for it Joe? Private seller so no warranty but the man is a teacher and seems very genuine from a nice part of the U.K.
Hi Joe sense a certain amount of frustration and resignation which is understandable given the challenges you’ve had. However i don’t think it’s right to suggest that it is an inevitable issue. If run in and looked after properly these engines will be fine. You just need to look beyond forums to get a proportionate understanding of the issue.
Nope. That's not correct. Perfectly well cared for and run M97 engines can and routinely do suffer from scoring. The problem is the opposite of what you say Forums etc will give you an understated idea of the problem. It is very widespread, unlike IMS issue which were always overblown.
Could be being a bit dramatic but I just don’t understand how one car can have it and another not. Servicing and the way it’s driven obviously comes into it. However some older cars can drive 3 or 4 years flat out and never see and oil change and be fine. These cars have just got an inherent design flaw. Shame really.
This is my dream car and although your experience pokes some holes in that dream, I'm so grateful for you sharing it. I'm reading the base 2.7 l engines are less likely to have it, snd that 2010 and later cars also are better choices, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah so the 2.7 is the best choice to be fair. The 3.4 is great with the extra power and the S badge but not worth it over the 2.7 at the expense of bore score. Get a 2.7 and save the headache.
That agreement's definitely a smart idea - but from your Facebook reads can you guess how common this is on 987.2 & beyond Caymans? I was hoping that might be one way to mostly avoid it!
Sadly mine has the same issue. 2006 Boxster 3.4 987.1 with just over 100k. Burns loads of oil, lots (and I mean lots) of smoke on cold start-up, black soot tail pipes and occasional plume of smoke on over-run/coasting when driving. Had the AOS replaced before as this blew big-time at speed on the motorway. Now independently checked by two specialists (La Rose Porsche near Sevenoaks and AMS Porsche near Luton) and both confirmed. Shame as the car drives fine otherwise. No ticking yet. 😔
@@JoeTalksCars No plans at the moment to rebuild, like yours, had quotes nearer to £10k. Still getting advice of any kind of cheaper rebuild or drop a different 3.2 engine in. I still have a great 986 (as in my profile picture) with no issues too so that will be my summer fun for now. Love the videos.
3.4, are you sure? if it`s a 2006 boxster model, it should still be a 3.2 liter engine; as porsche only went to 3.4 liter engines in 2007. note that according to porsche club of america`s relevant videos on youtube, a 3.2 liter porsche boxster will not be able to contract bore scoring due to its cast piston; while the larger 3.4 liter cayman engine with its forged aluminium piston (as used in 2007/2008 model year boxsters) may well...
With all due respect, people buying any used car need to have a private purchase inspection. My theory of why the issue was prevalent is how people drive and maintain their cars. I'm not a scientist but I do think the proper oil weight matters. I believe 0-40w is to thin. Personally with a boxer motor I wouldn't go below 5. Also the start procedure for a boxer motor is completely different you're supposed to start the car and drive. Your warmup procedure is to drive the car under 3,000 rmp. Which is contrary to the standard starting procedure of most other cars.
Yeah I’ve heard it can be the way they are driven. I really don’t know and think nobody does. The weight of the oil is totally inappropriate for the car in road use. I use a heavier weight of oil now as recommended by the builder. Oil change next week so I best not find more bad news 🤣
@@JoeTalksCars you'll be all right but I definitely agree with the builder. These cars need heavier oil. 0w-40 it's just simply not suitable. People need to stop treating their boxer motor cars like the average V engine. These motors do not like to idle for long periods of time to warm up. And they definitely at least once per drive to be taken through the revs.
I agree nobody listens, Joe. But then you were told, go to Hartech and you didn't listen to that and look where it got you. You didn't save any money and, I am afraid to say, ended up with an inferior steel liner rebuild that's far more likely to give you problems in future. In the end, people need to take their own journey towards reality with these things. They just don't like being told stuff even if they are, in the end, not well informed. You've gotten most of the way there now with your knowledge, but I am confident you would have (and probably did) resits the idea that scoring is the norm for these engines. No doubt you've said stuff to that effect before - the usual, 'it's rare' 'I got unlocky". Same old, I am afraid.
Very well said. Yeah I went for steel liners but only time will tell if that was a good move. Hartech do offer a superior build but it was a few grand more. £12k I think they quoted. Next Porsche I get for sure is not going to have scoring as il avoid any that can be affected. As much as I love this car I wouldn’t want to do it all again.
991's too...perhaps even 992's. Panamera's and Cayennes' too (the V8's have a lot of known scoring issues). I am avoiding the brand for now for probably a decade. I had a 993 and 996tt....so not a troll.
The MA1 isn't perfect, but no engine is. It's proven very reliable. Very few engines have failed. Any issues with the MA1 / 9A1 are not even remotely on the same scale as scoring in the M97, which is of epidemic scale.
So what do you suggest? All caymans have bore scoring one day , facts , and so ?? I believe if you wanna have fun , be ready to pay for it sooner or later Or buy a Toyota
Yeah either prepare or buy a rebuilt or have it scoped. A clear car could give many years of trouble free driving. Mine clearly had it from purchase and because it didn’t scope it, ended up costing my hugely.
@@prof_tim These cars are about the handling, 2.7 is ample. I've left 400bhp Audi TTs on twisty roads because they don't handle, where as the Cayman is on rails. The Audi drivers get upset and roar past on the straights, as you would expect.
@@prof_tim I try to accelerate out as soon as possible. It was quite funny to look in my mirror and see the front end of the TT running wide and the driver having to back off, while the Cayman was rock solid and just stayed on line. Mine's fitted all around with Bilstein B16 coil-overs which helps.
Bore scoring engine has a tick to it that should not be there and your better off get the engine upgrade to a big bore instead of just fixing it as it will return and you will have more power to the back wheels fact.
This was one of those videos that had the objective to be helpful but in all honesty possibly isn’t. Anyone watching these videos “should” already be well aware of bore scoring and will have assessed it into the equation of purchase. Those that haven’t are the ones that find themselves onto fb forums posting of borescore ailments and symptoms and being directed to AOS replacement. What I’m saying is those of us watching will end up a little depressed if you are correct it’s a matter of when rather than if bore scoring is on the cards. I’m also suspect about the man maths on the statistics of failure rates and if some confirmation bias is being thrown in here. Sure old Hartech are going to paint a picture of doom but they are the ones that get sent the knackered engines. They know no different. If every Cayman/boxster owner got up tomorrow and had their engine borescoped then we’d have a better idea. Even then one companies opinion of damage level is different to another’s because it’s so subjective. The inspections are purely visual. No actual measurements are taken. Regardless if we had every cars score, done in a controlled manner, cross referenced against age, milage and engine; we would have a much better picture. Yet we only ever get the inspections after we suspect it’s happened, because it mainly has in those instances. So when a garage says “every car we’ve scoped has scoring”, it makes sense. Every car brought in for bore scoring issues has been scoped for it and had the problem confirmed. I suspect very few actually just inspect the engines for the sake of it and that’s where the “it will happen to all of them” point falls down because every car being driven around, without issues or symptoms is quite possibly perfectly fine. These are ignored on forums and in these videos. In summary this video tells us one thing. One thing we already know. If you want to buy a cayman/boxster etc, build a bore scope inspection into your decision making. Buying from a specialist should give you opportunity to have that done. Buying privately can also give the you the opportunity to get this done. Inspect, agree on price etc, agree to buy subject to a local specialist bore scope inspection at your cost.
Thanks for the comment. The video came out of pure frustration that more and more cars are now showing signs, if it’s a mechanical defect I don’t see how some don’t get affected. It’s a design flaw in the engine. I’ve had mine fixed and have the same thoughts about Hartech, they do always post doom and gloom and the business is built on that. I went to Strasse, had steel liners fitted as logic suggests this will prevent any further scoring. I then got a lot of hate saying Hartech would have been better as they use a different metal. I don’t doubt Hartech know how to build an engine but if you have seen the posts on Facebook they are long and very one sided. They attack anyone who doesn’t use them. Top and bottom is get it checked out. Easier said then done but it’s the only way you will get a few years of trouble free driving.
they ALL have it.. you can only by using expensive oil or additives, special fuels with special additives, and monitor the fuel ports are clean and working perfectly.. and after all that.. it does not take much .. to get bore scoring.. 100% of all the Caymen S will have it.
3:08 "I feel that every single 987 S will eventually suffer bore scoring", joe claims. this is the first time I`ve ever heard such a claim made, and there is scant evidence that this is actually true: the 987 S series cars prone to bore scoring are now on average roughly 17 years old. if there were any truth to joe`s claims, then most, if not all 987s would have fallen victim to bore scoring by now...and yet...at the very most 10% of them (says porsche club of america) will ever have had the problem. so please don`t make a mountain out of what for the great majority of porsche 987 S owners will forever remain the proverbial mole-hill.
Just an opinion and using logic that this is a design flaw with the coating and design of the engine, if it wasn’t a design fault why have Porsche redesigned and got rid of the problem. Each week more and more cars pop up scored. There is a number of businesses in the UK built the entire business out of repairing these cars. I do understand your argument and hope you are right and I am wrong as this was a painfully expensive job.
@@JoeTalksCars thanks for your reply. porsche would of course redesign the engine even if only 1% of all cars were to contract bore scoring; never mind 10%; or 100%, so that`s not a persuasive argument. I got a 2006 987 boxster three years back with a meagre (then) 5`000 km on the clock; so you now have me wondering...and a little worried, too...and yet I was plannîng on just enjoying the car before we`re all forced to go electric! oh, well.
Hello Joe, could I just ask,if you have a Cayman engine rebuild,by a good specialist, will it still have bore scoring later in life,or are their changes you can do, to completely stop it happening again.thanks.
Allegedly it will not happen again but I suppose only time will tell. It’s been done by Strasse in Leeds. They come highly recommended although I wouldn’t 100% recommend them despite the build being ok so far
Why are so many porsches afflicted by bore scoring, 5 years ago i wanted a good 957 cayenne s until i read about the possibility of bore scoring, i was quite shocked tbh.... And what with the other problems i went for the vr6 3.6 cayenne instead got an immaculate triple black 957 one owner 51k miler..... Now im possibly thinking of another car... Have considered mustang 5.0 gt, aston vantage...... And cayman,....then i find this video and learn these also suffer bore score 🙄😣😣😣😣
@@drunvert thanks for replying........ Yes, have since learned that since posting my comment. The 981 ticks a lot of boxes,...... Now im torn between gearboxes,, was initially adamant on the PDK for the tech....... But now possibly thinking about a manual
@@robertandrews6555 mine has a manual and I absolutely love it. If you are going to commute in traffic or you plan on tracking it for times, then PDK. If it is just a drivers car. Screw the PDK.
Very true, If you want Gen 1 it is a wise choice to go for 2.7. Gen 2 cars are unaffected so again make a good choice but they are a lot more money. I suppose that’s why people end up with the Gen 1.
@JoeTalksCars it is an S, and I hope I have a hens tooth copy. It's like somebody up there likes me. I just broke one hand brake cable. So I'll take it as an omen and replace all the cables. My roof hasn't dropped yet either, thank god. but it did start behind the passenger headrest.
The problem is that the IMS issue was always overblown. So, people apply the same thinking. And now there's a backlash from the ill informed that bore scoring is overblown and it's quite rare. It's not. It's endemic and far more widespread than IMS issues were on the earlier engines. People get quite angry and aggressive asserting it's only 'x%' of engines. And as a consequence the reality of the problem is being obscured. They all score, it's just a question of when. Most have scored significantly by about 80k. There are zillions of cars out there with cheap steel liner repairs done by traders and the owners don't even know that's what they've got. Plus all the cars that have had new blocks with Porsche under warranty. If you took a random sample of 987.1 3.4s you'd find the majority had either been repaired or had significant scoring. It would be the minority that were on their original liners with no scoring. But for some people, always those who are less informed, there's increasingly a push back against this reality. So it goes.
Yeah more was talked about with IMS. The thing I don’t understand is why steel liners are worse? I just don’t get how Hartech can line the cylinders with a different material and find it better? Strasse race their rebuilt engines on steel liners with no issues.
@@JoeTalksCars There's lots of info out there on why steel liner is worse. It's not suitable for the M97 block design. Can work fine in other block designs.
Is this purely a 3.4 problem are the 2.7 ok ? I recently saw a 2.7 for sale for just over 7k with over 160 k on the clock it sold very quick , the talk of bore scoring is very off putting unfortunately as they are awesome cars
The notes are somewhat scientific in terms of engine numbers, though it requires some head-scratching from your list that Gen 1 987 caymans suffer, but Gen 2’s not so. Unless my R is susceptible? Though I haven’t heard any stories or scoring in Gen2’s. Your notes probably say that but it’s all a bit like algebra. Couldn’t it be explained more simply?
They changed the cylinder coating and also the bearing design from 2009 (gen 2), so no scoring or IMS worries...and that is why a gen 2 model cost's WAY more than a gen 1.
Why do we just accept this? Why isn't this issue a lifetime warranty issue? Class action against Porsche? It's a design flaw and an unacceptable one. My Cayman shows NO signs, NO signs at the moment of suffering, but when it does, I'll swap in an LS3. I was going to rebuild or do a 911 Turbo swap, but why? Porsche engines are crap. Nice cars and I love it, but the engine is a lump of crap. Also watch for leaking fuel tank. Another common point of failure. If my Cayman wasn't so friggin pretty and nice to drive, I'd get rid of it tomorrow. Lastly I don't know how true it is, but I've heard bore scoring is less likely in warmer, dryer climates. I live in Perth Australia so I'm hoping that's true. My car was an original Perth car, and has never left the state. Fingers crossed, but if it does happen, hello V8 engine swap :D Part of me HOPES it happens.
I get that. The engines sound good and perform well but are so flawed it’s a joke. Wish it was accepted by Porsche and on a recall. Yeah I’ve heard that too about climate. That would be interesting to see the figures on cars affected. It does seem to be all cars from this generation tho.
@@JoeTalksCars V8 mate. LS engines are a dime a dozen over here (at the moment) :D The USA do it and they say the weight distribution is the same as the original Porsche engine. If that's true, you get more power, a better car, and any monkey can work on it. Win win.
Basically stop buying Porsche's All of the flat 6 water cooled motors have scoring perhaps the first generation Boxter Look at something else Mercedes Audi Honda all make reliable cars Bore scope will not pick up the scoring unless its done from below as the scoring starts at the bottom Do you think the seller will let you take the oil pan off😅
It's ridiculous how over-rated German cars are. IMS bearing, subframe issues and other major, major engineering flaws. I owned two BMWs and they are shit cars. Won't touch Porsche for same reason.
Go buy an Aston Martin for £20.000 but when they go wrong they’re not a £20.000 car to fix, they’re still a £100.000+ car to fix Same as the cayman. I’ve been lucky with mine it’s been no trouble at all…
My advice is don’t buy a Porsche, buy something else Ford Fiesta, Citroen 2CV, Bmw, AUDI, Lamborghini gaillardo V10 for £50 grand now… why bother with a Porsche they’ve always been shite, just a VE beetle with the front stretched out at the end of the day. Good lord…
Yeah to be fair I’ve been surprised with what I heard goes wrong with these, not the German build you initially expect. Mind you it’s a 17 year old car now, things will and have gone wrong.
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Had my 88k miles 3.4S 2½ years now.
Had it scoped pre-purchase, regularly changed the oil, a year ago had a Millers oils analysis and still no sign of it.
Pick a good one and it's not a worry.
100 agree. Had a 996 and 997.1S. One had bore scoring, one would likely have it.Have a 987.1 base and love knowing of all the problems to worry about, bore score isn’t one. Whenever I try to share my experiences on the internet, I get a lot of pushback….from non Porsche owners. Those who know, know. Thanks and best to you!
This is exactly why i am going with a cayman 987.1 base. Thankfully ive had enough time to research all the issues with the 987.1.
Glad someone out here is telling the uncomfortable truth!!! Thank you
Yeah it’s a scary truth that so many don’t want to know. I want to warn others. Not to be put off by the 987.1 S but be prepared financially.
One possible prescription to prevent bore scoring:
1. Use Redline 5-40 synthetic. It leaves an oil film for a longer time on the cylinder walls. Will help smooth the start-up.
2. Warm the engine for 2-4 minutes depending on ambient temperature.
3. Don’t track the car.
Good discussions on Redline in the forums if you are not familiar with this very excellent oil. Motul 300 synthetic would make a good alternate choice.
@@ramiller2187 Actually they warn you to NOT warm up the engine by idling but drive slowly. Also her in Norway all cars have heaters in the engine block to warm up the water and engine in the winter. I would think having a engine heater like that heating it up before starting would help?
@ Just expressing my 2 cents here and I recognize I’m probably in the minority on this. But these are boxer engines and because their cylinders lie flat, it is best to warm them up before taking off to make sure they are properly lubed. (Same goes for other boxer engines such as Subaru.) Yes, I know it says in the Porsche owners manuals to not warm up the engines. But I’ve heard experienced Porsche techs say almost all these motors from the affected years end up getting bore scoring at some point. So to me, what’s in the owners manual on this can’t possibly be good advice. Yikes, did I really say that?
Because these engines have this known defect, I think it probably best to not track the car. It is well known that tracking any car, not just Porsches, puts far more stress and wear on the internal engine components. If you own a car that already has a reputation for bore scoring, you are rolling the dice for more serious engine problems than you would have otherwise. Again, just voicing my opinion here.
Thanks Joe, partly due to your videos I put my ego in check and today a proud owner of a lovely red Cayman 2007 2.7l for the sake of half a second faster acceleration both vehicles sound the same run the same look the same it's just not worth the headache and the financial burden that the S version can put up on you!
Exactly. Keep your foot down and you won't know the difference
Simple solution to those who are genuinely worried about bore scoring in the S models…get a base 2.7. They are super fun and won’t kill you or your wallet!
2.7 has so many advantages! Cheaper tax, less fuel, no bore score. I don’t know why I went for the 3.4 now 🤣
So only S models have bore score? What is the difference in the motors that makes S models susceptible ?
@@windyrun7979 Yes, it seems to be a “S” specific problem. The cylinder walls are thinner on the 3.4 motors and it’s harder to dissipate heat. Typically bore scoring will occur in cylinders 4-5-6. I believe the piston material was different as well. The motors in the 3.2 Boxsters don’t seem to suffer the same fate.
Lol. I've got a 981. But the 2.7 is plenty fast. Keep it over 4k rpms and it flies. Handles the same...looks the same. Only on a track is there a difference
@@JoeTalksCarsI'm so happy that I put my ego in check.
I can't believe I was disregarding this incredible 2.7 6 cylinder engine... The 3.4 is only a good purchase if you are prepared to do the work on it yourself! And you have to be able to rebuild the engine yourself.
Hello Joe. To be fair these model year Porsches (at least on our side of the pond) were all hyped up on IMS failure. To be honest I researched before I purchased my CS ,payed for a pre purchase inspection but it was not done at a Porsche independent shop or dealer so no scoping, and even bought it with high mileage to avoid IMS issues. It has only been in the last 2-3 years that I have seen so much emphasis on bore scoring. Car now is close to 105k and scared me since for the first time I had to top off the oil. Oh well, If they say it’s not a question of if but when then all us CS owners are in for a rough reckoning. I have been for a while seriously considering when that happens just to bite the bullet and bore out the engine for more power. Does it make financial sense? Of course not. But then again these cars are not purchased with a rational and utilitarian purpose. These are our toys. Life is short . Sometimes we have to pay the price to play.
987.1 CS received the third generation of IMS. It's a sealed bearing and located inside the shaft. So Do Not Touch. Failure rate is less than 1% so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Bore scoring is much more prone. For me, excessive oil usage is No.1 indicator. It's does a digital reading every time you start the vehicle. Reason why it's not a dip stick that can be neglected to monitor. Second is if there's blue smoke coming out of one tailpipe. Bore soring happens to one or two cylinders all in one side bank. Keep in mind pipes are crossed. Certainly boring to 4.2l if it happens. Paying for it at the pump but you'll have a smile on your face.
No, this model year of Porsche wasn't hyped up re IMS failure, that was earlier cars. These cars have pretty reliable IMS bearings but if they are going to go, they'll go at higher miles. High miles on an M97 with the big bearing does not take you away IMS failure. It takes you towards it, albeit the risks are low and the engine is far more likely to fail with scoring long before the bearing goes.
Such a good comment! Thank you! Some it seems are able to cruise right up to and over 100k miles without issue. In some ways it does seem to be the lower mileage examples that go. Mine only had 40k on it and most I’ve seen tend to be around that. Oil use is meant to be fairly high on these so wouldn’t worry unless it’s guzzling. Mine was drinking litres and litres before the sounds and ultimately engine failure. Hope all goes well with your car and it gives you lots of smiles per mile!
I am convinced! Anyways all porsche engine have some serious issues up to 991 GT3. We don't know what 992 gen 911 will have an engine issue or not since it is too early stage of its production. I would rather choose to purchase cayman s 2012 mk2 and enjoy it. if it helps to have bore scoring issue then I will think about what I am going to do later. Until then I will take care my baby and enjoy it!
@@flat6crochello. I’m looking forward to buy a 2006 987.1 2.7 L Cayman (66.000 kms total on the engine). I am a little bit worried about bore scoring, if there’s any and very worried about that IMS fail. Can someone explain me if my concerns are not justified and why? Thank you so much.
Just bought a 2.7 gen 1 Cayman, it is brave to say all 3.4's bore score eventually. But true I suspect.
Sadly I think it’s true. If it’s not then that’s great but I just don’t see how they all can’t eventually suffer.
Great honesty. I think that the love of the brand does cloud the perceptions of reality of many proud owners. Also the Hartech and Ninmeister written report that declared only 5% is now about 6 or 7 years old!
Hey Joe! Funny you should make this video....PCA did a video about bore scoring, i hear about it all over the interwebs but Porsche mechanics i know contradict all the noise i hear about it.
i think or (hope) i dodged a bullet, i change my oil every 6 months im going to pre-emptively change my AOS, and all the tubes this weekend because i figure, 17 year old car, 17 year old parts.
The one thing that does frighten me is that the car came with 0 service records but im not a professional mechanic but i checked the car out myself and i took a chance and 4 years later, its pretty damn reliable. i did a ton of research on these cars before i bought it and i went with my gut. so far, she hasnt let me down yet.
The coolant pumps are a bit of a weak spot too, fiddly to replace but not too difficult for an experienced amateur. Good quality after market pumps are available too at very reasonable cost.
The interesting thing I took from video 4 in that series is that the rebuild specialists shop was taking 12 engines a week. That's around 600 a year. If there's only a few other shops doing rebuilds on this scale then that's thousands of engines a year in the US.
@@kw8757 yep, I replaced the water pump in 11/2020
@@ThatCaymanGuy 👍Good 👍
Yeah I just woke up one day and thought I needed to make it. Mine has been good other than the bore score! Hope yours continues that way! Sounds like you have got a good one!
Presumably, the 2.7 cayman doesn’t suffer bore score issues just as the 2.7 Boxster doesn’t. Buy a 2.7, get a sports exhaust fitted, increases the hp by about 20-25…..drives beautifully. Good luck with your car Joe, at least you know there’s no high cost other issues to probably worry about.
Yeah the 2.7 is unaffected and is the car of choice if I were to do it all again.
So does that mean the 2.5. 2.7 & 3.2 are all safe bets in terms of bore score. ? any year of those engines are OK ?
One possible prescription to prevent bore scoring:
1. Use Redline 5-40 synthetic. It leaves an oil film for a longer time on the cylinder walls. Will help smooth the start-up.
2. Warm the engine for 2-4 minutes depending on ambient temperature.
3. Don’t track the car.
Good discussions on Redline in the forums if you are not familiar with this very excellent oil. Motul 300 synthetic would make a good alternate choice.
Not tracking the car seems a shame:( is that due to heat? Surely they like to be tracked providing they are warmed up and serviced ect. Mine will be heading to the Nurburgring soon.
From everything I have researched I would also draw the same conclusion, because it is fundamentally a mechanical wear issue, bore scoring is a matter of when, not if.
Yeah, shame really but true.
The best way to avoid this problem is to buy a car that has had the engine rebuilt using Nikasil coated cylinder liners such as by Hartech, on at least cylinders 4,5 & 6. This removes the potential for bore scoring.
The problem is that the Locasil liners used by Porsche are prone to scoring, and the larger the bore size of the engine, the worse that gets. Therefore the 2.7 is probably OK, whereas the 3.8 in the Carrera S is almost certain to suffer scoring, and the 3.2 sits somewhere in the middle of that probability scale.
The Nikasil coating is much more effective and, as far as I'm aware, there have been no bore scoring issues at all with these liners, and Hartech do a lot of rebuilds.
Bear in mind that a car that had its engine rebuilt using new standard Porsche Lokasil liners is just as likely to fail again over time, as the original engine was!!
I'm constantly amazed that the Hartech rebuilt cars aren't valued much more highly, because they're effectively just as reliable as the second generation models, particularly if they have the newest IMS bearing as well.
Basically cars with that newest IMS and Nikasil liners, are a steal at current values!
Agreed with everything and I would certainly consider a rebuilt car. However I’d avoid the Gen 1 cars are affected so it wasn’t a roll of the dice. Mines on steel liners built by Strasse in Leeds. Highly regarded as one of the best Porsche builders in the country. Interesting that they use steel and Hartech have their own material. I’m not saying Hartech isn’t the way to go but there is a lot of talk on forums saying they have the only liners worth having. Convenient business model right there.
@@JoeTalksCars the problem with steel liners is that steel expands and contracts at a different rate to the aluminium block as it heats up and cools down, so there could be issues with head gasket integrity over time and obviously the piston gaps could be problematic too because the pistons weren't designed for steel liners.
Nikasil coated aluminium liners seem to me to be the best solution for long term peace of mind. In all other 911 engines, Porsche use coated/aluminium liners, but not Lokasil, it's the Lokasil that seems like a big part of the problem with these particular engines. Porsche used Nikasil coating before the M96/97 and they use Alusil liners now because Nikasil has been phased out due to environmental issues in the manufacturing process.
I got my 2006 Cayman S 2 months ago, it came with a receipt for a new short block fitted by Porsche 8 years/15k miles ago! Original Engine died at 48K. Hopefully that's my insurance... Not using any oil as yet and it's had a clean bill of health from a specialist, so I'm going to get on and enjoy it. Ultimately, I'm not even sure if a borescope will definitively identify this problem. And, I genuinely don't believe every car will suffer from this. There are cars out there with well over 100k miles and the original engine. It's a bit like the BMW nikasil issue, some cars will die, some will live on. Whether that's down to oil, servicing, usage,driving style of plain old luck, that's the way it is.
Mine went at 48k or at least around then. Such a bad design, servicing and driving style definitely comes into it as you said but driving style isn’t something that can be measured when buying used. To be honest I’ve never heard about the BMW issue, will Google it now. Interesting.
My cayman went at 89k and now it needs rebuilding
Thank you so much, It was your channel that steered we away from the S,
I pick up
My 07 plate base cayman
One 24th
Great news!!! Enjoy your car! I’m sure you will, love a 2.7 and if I could change anything it would be that I had one and not the S. bore score is too much to cope with.
My local specialist told me it's not if but when with these engines. My 2005 3.2 Boxster S had bore scoring and it was devastating to be told my £11k car had a £10k problem. A pre purchase inspection including a bore scope of all bores is absolutely essential.
It’s just awful isn’t it. Mine nearly cost what the car did too. Is yours all done now?
@@JoeTalksCars I got rid of the car. It happened roughly the same time as yours so it was interesting to see the similar thought process of weighing up between getting rid and keeping such an amazing car. I was surprised how stressful it was. These cars do get under your skin don't they. I'm now nearly back to the point of being able to buy again and it has put me off getting another Porsche at this price range to be honest.
@@ianhortonplant really? Mad how common this is! Yeah to be honest I wouldn’t do it again. A 991 or above is what il be getting next.
@@JoeTalksCars or get a 996 or 997 Turbo as they have Mezger engines which are bomb proof. Also ridiculously fast!
What was the Mileage?
You’re correct. All 987.1 will suffer from Bore scoring. I’m maintaining to prevent/prolong it by using Liqui Moly 5w 40(molybdenum disulphides) and fill up with top tier gas (High detergent keeps fuel injectors spray evenly). 987.1 are now 17 years old and accumulating over 100,000 kms where bore scoring will rear its ugly head. Some will pay the heavy costs and have it rebuild but others will discard it for parts only. Leaving less and less available. So in the near future, the value of the 987.1 still standing will be higher. The price gap between 987.2 and 987.1 will close. I’m already seeing low milage 987.1 selling same as 987.2 high milage.
Look k
Not quite…
These M96 and M97 engines (which were built between '97 - '08) are prone to four major faults; bore scoring, d-chunk of cylinder wall, IMS bearing failure and cylinder head cracking. Any of these faults will likely necessitate a rebuild. The engines were installed on 911, Boxster and Cayman. Nice Porsches but not without risk. New 9A1 engine was developed for '09 model year to mitigate these issues.
Amazing how long the period spanned. Wonder when it was first apparent that there was an issue?
@@JoeTalksCars It was quickly apparent in the 90's but Porsche kept producing them for 10 years and got away with it because of their rich clientele that are willing to pay absurd amounts of money and pretend it is normal. It's all done with a wink and a smile; selling them scorred and abused, you know we know, we know you know, but this is Porsche with "heritage" and "social status". It's disgusting. As disgusting as BMW selling crank hub without a keyway for 10 years on N54, N55 and S55 engines.
And that’s why the 987.2 with the 2.9 engine is the best choice if you want a 987. No bore scoring, no IMS, no direct injection leading to carbon buildup on the valves.
The 2.9 in 987.2 is still the old one affected by all these issues. Only the 3.4 is DFI and hassle free.
@@MercSLRFan I believe Rick is right. 2.9 is the most trouble freeish one.
Great advice Joe. Thanks.
My 07 987C Base Tiptronic seems to use no oil at all. No blue smoke. I change the oil my elf every 5000 miles. It has 170,000 mile on it now. I do wonder if bore scoring is more common with stick shift ONLY because previous owners could have possible over revved it a number of times. It's impossible to over rev with the Tiptronic transmission.
Both Porsche SA’s in my region said that 100% of 911’s and 986/987’s with silicon impregnated engines will eventually experience bore scoring. More importantly, they are not allowed to sell them preowned because Porsche knows this will happen eventually and has instructed them not to sell them preowned. Even more worrying, they say they’re seeing it newer models not previously suspected of having this problem experiencing bore scoring.
My cayman s 987.1 has had bore scoring for four years now. Consumes a litre of oil with every full tank of fuel…I’ve learnt to live with it. As long as the oil level is good you can thrash the engine as much as you like. I drive it very hard and hit the redline 2-3 times on every drive. Still works like a charm and no loss of power. The only observable symptom of bore score (and this is my opinion) is a certain resonance from the engine at load between 3-4k rpm while pulling. So yeah, I’m not that bothered to be honest
That’s mad how much it’s burning tho. Do you not worry about the cats and all the other parts of the engine that are going to be affected by the very poor running?
So far no issues with the cat. The car has been passing emissions and no cel either. There is soot around the pipes and bumper area but cleans with every wash. I’ve changed the coils and plugs two years ago..they were caked I admit, but there was no difference in performance with the new plugs like I thought. I tried oil additives like ceratec…and they did make a difference but the effect wore off quickly as the car can’t retain oil. I hesitate from boring out the engine…not entirely due to price but also as I feel it won’t feel factory if I do. Like I said…there are no perceivable issues. The car is perfectly drivable/livable.
I also do an engine flush during every oil change and think that makes a difference..
I purchased my 997, knowingly, with bore scoring. I got it cheap because of it. Bore scoring is an opportunity to buy a cheap car, get it repaired better than OEM. I would look for a car with bore scoring is my advice.
I see your point, cheap. However, the previous owner has worked the engine hard and maybe over revs too. An owner like that won’t be caring for the Porsche. They just want to red line it every time. Things like oil changes and other maintenance both cosmetic and mechanical will likely be neglected. How’s the condition of the body and interior. After the rebuilt, you’ll probably want to address these other neglected area of the car. Or maybe not and just track the thing until it needs another rebuilt.
@@josephlim8941 Bore scoring doesn’t work like that. Bore scoring is caused by hot spots in the engine which is a fundamental flaw in the design it’s self, that’s why it normally happens on one side and not the other. Bore scoring can happen anytime in any place. So the items you listed are not relevant to bore scoring. Bore scoring has very little relevance on how someone has treated the car.
Over revs are normally monitored and recorded on turbo based engines and not so much on normally aspirated.
Your correct on the other condition factors but they apply to any car you buy. If it’s not in great condition the price will reflect it.
I had full Porsche service history on the car I purchased and the bore scoring happened at 82,000. The car then sat for 2 years which caused more issues due to not moving rather than how it was treated.
I now have a full Hartech engine rebuild and a fully sorted car for less than £30k, with no concerns over bore scoring, although I must admit I have spent money on areas which weren’t needed 🤣😂 Sports exhaust, new suspension etc, purely my choice.
Very good idea! I did actually think this when I got mine, if only I bought one with known scoring!
Rare is the seller that would admit that. This is porsche, we all pretend they are best engineered engines ever made and give you a wink and a smile while asking 40 thousand euros price.
Hi Joe. I can assure you most dealers are happy to have their cars bore checked by a recognised fixed base Porsche specialist. If not can walk away. The cost of this is £150-300 depending on location. Most aftermarket warranty providers will not cover bore score as it's a known fault. Tiptonics are far more prone as the heat from the box transfers to the flywheel and the engine runs hotter especially in traffic.
Yeah probably sound advice, I’m not sure most would agree but then that should be the indication to walk away.
@@JoeTalksCars You would be surprised- but agree walk away if they say no. Most Porsche specialist dealers would check a car for scoring before buying it in or retailing it for a customer on sale or return. I bought my 997.1 C2S privately after a clear borescope, but with a view it would likely need to be rebuilt long term regardless- as it's a keeper i would see the value in a rebuild and the huge saving over a similar low mileage manual 997.2 (which have suffered rarer scoring cases themselves).
I seem to be one of the fortunate ones…..3 years of trouble free driving (inc many track days) in my 987.1 S. 53k miles. 🫣
Great vid as always tho Joe! People do need to do their homework when buying a 2nd hand sports car, of any kind! Then treat it like your first born! ☺️
Very very lucky. I just don’t understand how mine went and went so so quickly.
Have you done something with it to go on track? Deep sump, motorsport AOS or something else?
@@sadbuttrue931 nope….i do however have it looked over by my local Porsche specialist (independent) before every track day, just to make sure its in tip top condition. 👍
I’ve seen a 987.1 (2007) with 96k miles in immaculate condition in silver.
Every MOT passed with minor advisories and it’s under 13k with full service history
Should I go for it Joe? Private seller so no warranty but the man is a teacher and seems very genuine from a nice part of the U.K.
Hi Joe sense a certain amount of frustration and resignation which is understandable given the challenges you’ve had.
However i don’t think it’s right to suggest that it is an inevitable issue. If run in and looked after properly these engines will be fine.
You just need to look beyond forums to get a proportionate understanding of the issue.
Nope. That's not correct. Perfectly well cared for and run M97 engines can and routinely do suffer from scoring. The problem is the opposite of what you say Forums etc will give you an understated idea of the problem. It is very widespread, unlike IMS issue which were always overblown.
Could be being a bit dramatic but I just don’t understand how one car can have it and another not. Servicing and the way it’s driven obviously comes into it. However some older cars can drive 3 or 4 years flat out and never see and oil change and be fine. These cars have just got an inherent design flaw. Shame really.
@@flat6croc I think you probably need to look at the data
@@jonfrench7133 Feel free to share this 'data'. There isn't any data, of course. You just made that up.
This is my dream car and although your experience pokes some holes in that dream, I'm so grateful for you sharing it. I'm reading the base 2.7 l engines are less likely to have it, snd that 2010 and later cars also are better choices, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah so the 2.7 is the best choice to be fair. The 3.4 is great with the extra power and the S badge but not worth it over the 2.7 at the expense of bore score. Get a 2.7 and save the headache.
That agreement's definitely a smart idea - but from your Facebook reads can you guess how common this is on 987.2 & beyond Caymans?
I was hoping that might be one way to mostly avoid it!
My 2.9 boxster started kicking out blue smoke on start up after 4 weeks of ownership
Has it been ok since?
Sadly mine has the same issue. 2006 Boxster 3.4 987.1 with just over 100k. Burns loads of oil, lots (and I mean lots) of smoke on cold start-up, black soot tail pipes and occasional plume of smoke on over-run/coasting when driving. Had the AOS replaced before as this blew big-time at speed on the motorway. Now independently checked by two specialists (La Rose Porsche near Sevenoaks and AMS Porsche near Luton) and both confirmed. Shame as the car drives fine otherwise. No ticking yet. 😔
Awww such a shame! 100k tho, it’s done well! Are you planning on a rebuild?
@@JoeTalksCars No plans at the moment to rebuild, like yours, had quotes nearer to £10k. Still getting advice of any kind of cheaper rebuild or drop a different 3.2 engine in. I still have a great 986 (as in my profile picture) with no issues too so that will be my summer fun for now. Love the videos.
3.4, are you sure? if it`s a 2006 boxster model, it should still be a 3.2 liter engine; as porsche only went to 3.4 liter engines in 2007.
note that according to porsche club of america`s relevant videos on youtube, a 3.2 liter porsche boxster will not be able to contract bore scoring
due to its cast piston; while the larger 3.4 liter cayman engine with its forged aluminium piston (as used in 2007/2008 model year boxsters)
may well...
@@donkeyshot8472 It is a 2007 model, just on a 2006 56 plate. Def a 3.4 . Thanks
Not worried about my 06 Cayman S, I’ll just keep driving it, if it fails, I will rebuild it.
That’s the best attitude
Do you have a sample bill of sale with the appropriate language?
Great content 🙌👍👍
Thank you 🙌
With all due respect, people buying any used car need to have a private purchase inspection.
My theory of why the issue was prevalent is how people drive and maintain their cars.
I'm not a scientist but I do think the proper oil weight matters. I believe 0-40w is to thin. Personally with a boxer motor I wouldn't go below 5. Also the start procedure for a boxer motor is completely different you're supposed to start the car and drive. Your warmup procedure is to drive the car under 3,000 rmp. Which is contrary to the standard starting procedure of most other cars.
Yeah I’ve heard it can be the way they are driven. I really don’t know and think nobody does. The weight of the oil is totally inappropriate for the car in road use. I use a heavier weight of oil now as recommended by the builder. Oil change next week so I best not find more bad news 🤣
@@JoeTalksCars you'll be all right but I definitely agree with the builder. These cars need heavier oil. 0w-40 it's just simply not suitable.
People need to stop treating their boxer motor cars like the average V engine. These motors do not like to idle for long periods of time to warm up. And they definitely at least once per drive to be taken through the revs.
I agree nobody listens, Joe. But then you were told, go to Hartech and you didn't listen to that and look where it got you. You didn't save any money and, I am afraid to say, ended up with an inferior steel liner rebuild that's far more likely to give you problems in future. In the end, people need to take their own journey towards reality with these things. They just don't like being told stuff even if they are, in the end, not well informed. You've gotten most of the way there now with your knowledge, but I am confident you would have (and probably did) resits the idea that scoring is the norm for these engines. No doubt you've said stuff to that effect before - the usual, 'it's rare' 'I got unlocky". Same old, I am afraid.
Very well said. Yeah I went for steel liners but only time will tell if that was a good move. Hartech do offer a superior build but it was a few grand more. £12k I think they quoted. Next Porsche I get for sure is not going to have scoring as il avoid any that can be affected. As much as I love this car I wouldn’t want to do it all again.
991's too...perhaps even 992's. Panamera's and Cayennes' too (the V8's have a lot of known scoring issues). I am avoiding the brand for now for probably a decade. I had a 993 and 996tt....so not a troll.
The MA1 isn't perfect, but no engine is. It's proven very reliable. Very few engines have failed. Any issues with the MA1 / 9A1 are not even remotely on the same scale as scoring in the M97, which is of epidemic scale.
I’ve heard of the Cayenne Turbo too! Crazy that Porsche screwed up this bad. I wouldn’t buy another between 96-07
So what do you suggest? All caymans have bore scoring one day , facts , and so ??
I believe if you wanna have fun , be ready to pay for it sooner or later
Or buy a Toyota
Yeah either prepare or buy a rebuilt or have it scoped. A clear car could give many years of trouble free driving. Mine clearly had it from purchase and because it didn’t scope it, ended up costing my hugely.
@@JoeTalksCars Or get a 2.7: they’re all the power you can use on a public road.
@@prof_tim These cars are about the handling, 2.7 is ample. I've left 400bhp Audi TTs on twisty roads because they don't handle, where as the Cayman is on rails. The Audi drivers get upset and roar past on the straights, as you would expect.
@@kw8757 Yep! If you’re not slowing down for bends then 2.7 is all you need :)
@@prof_tim I try to accelerate out as soon as possible. It was quite funny to look in my mirror and see the front end of the TT running wide and the driver having to back off, while the Cayman was rock solid and just stayed on line. Mine's fitted all around with Bilstein B16 coil-overs which helps.
Bore scoring engine has a tick to it that should not be there and your better off get the engine upgrade to a big bore instead of just fixing it as it will return and you will have more power to the back wheels fact.
I did consider it but it was nearly £4,000 extra to bore it out. Taking the price to £14000. Just hard to justify for a little extra power
This was one of those videos that had the objective to be helpful but in all honesty possibly isn’t.
Anyone watching these videos “should” already be well aware of bore scoring and will have assessed it into the equation of purchase. Those that haven’t are the ones that find themselves onto fb forums posting of borescore ailments and symptoms and being directed to AOS replacement.
What I’m saying is those of us watching will end up a little depressed if you are correct it’s a matter of when rather than if bore scoring is on the cards.
I’m also suspect about the man maths on the statistics of failure rates and if some confirmation bias is being thrown in here. Sure old Hartech are going to paint a picture of doom but they are the ones that get sent the knackered engines. They know no different.
If every Cayman/boxster owner got up tomorrow and had their engine borescoped then we’d have a better idea. Even then one companies opinion of damage level is different to another’s because it’s so subjective. The inspections are purely visual. No actual measurements are taken.
Regardless if we had every cars score, done in a controlled manner, cross referenced against age, milage and engine; we would have a much better picture.
Yet we only ever get the inspections after we suspect it’s happened, because it mainly has in those instances. So when a garage says “every car we’ve scoped has scoring”, it makes sense. Every car brought in for bore scoring issues has been scoped for it and had the problem confirmed.
I suspect very few actually just inspect the engines for the sake of it and that’s where the “it will happen to all of them” point falls down because every car being driven around, without issues or symptoms is quite possibly perfectly fine. These are ignored on forums and in these videos.
In summary this video tells us one thing. One thing we already know. If you want to buy a cayman/boxster etc, build a bore scope inspection into your decision making.
Buying from a specialist should give you opportunity to have that done. Buying privately can also give the you the opportunity to get this done. Inspect, agree on price etc, agree to buy subject to a local specialist bore scope inspection at your cost.
Thanks for the comment. The video came out of pure frustration that more and more cars are now showing signs, if it’s a mechanical defect I don’t see how some don’t get affected. It’s a design flaw in the engine. I’ve had mine fixed and have the same thoughts about Hartech, they do always post doom and gloom and the business is built on that.
I went to Strasse, had steel liners fitted as logic suggests this will prevent any further scoring. I then got a lot of hate saying Hartech would have been better as they use a different metal. I don’t doubt Hartech know how to build an engine but if you have seen the posts on Facebook they are long and very one sided. They attack anyone who doesn’t use them.
Top and bottom is get it checked out. Easier said then done but it’s the only way you will get a few years of trouble free driving.
Would regular and more common to most garages compression test find out about bore scoring
I’m 99% sure a compression test shows nothing as the gap is small and sealed with oil. Could be wrong tho.
they ALL have it.. you can only by using expensive oil or additives, special fuels with special additives, and monitor the fuel ports are clean and working perfectly.. and after all that.. it does not take much .. to get bore scoring.. 100% of all the Caymen S will have it.
They sure will, I did think it was a low % before I got mine. It’s clear the issue is way more widespread!
3:08 "I feel that every single 987 S will eventually suffer bore scoring", joe claims. this is the first time I`ve ever heard such a claim made,
and there is scant evidence that this is actually true: the 987 S series cars prone to bore scoring are now on average roughly 17 years old.
if there were any truth to joe`s claims, then most, if not all 987s would have fallen victim to bore scoring by now...and yet...at the very most
10% of them (says porsche club of america) will ever have had the problem. so please don`t make a mountain out of what for the great
majority of porsche 987 S owners will forever remain the proverbial mole-hill.
Just an opinion and using logic that this is a design flaw with the coating and design of the engine, if it wasn’t a design fault why have Porsche redesigned and got rid of the problem. Each week more and more cars pop up scored. There is a number of businesses in the UK built the entire business out of repairing these cars. I do understand your argument and hope you are right and I am wrong as this was a painfully expensive job.
@@JoeTalksCars thanks for your reply. porsche would of course redesign the engine even if only 1% of all cars were to contract bore scoring;
never mind 10%; or 100%, so that`s not a persuasive argument. I got a 2006 987 boxster three years back with a meagre (then) 5`000 km on
the clock; so you now have me wondering...and a little worried, too...and yet I was plannîng on just enjoying the car before we`re all forced to
go electric! oh, well.
Hello Joe, could I just ask,if you have a Cayman engine rebuild,by a good specialist, will it still have bore scoring later in life,or are their changes you can do, to completely stop it happening again.thanks.
Allegedly it will not happen again but I suppose only time will tell. It’s been done by Strasse in Leeds. They come highly recommended although I wouldn’t 100% recommend them despite the build being ok so far
Why are so many porsches afflicted by bore scoring, 5 years ago i wanted a good 957 cayenne s until i read about the possibility of bore scoring, i was quite shocked tbh.... And what with the other problems i went for the vr6 3.6 cayenne instead got an immaculate triple black 957 one owner 51k miler..... Now im possibly thinking of another car... Have considered mustang 5.0 gt, aston vantage...... And cayman,....then i find this video and learn these also suffer bore score 🙄😣😣😣😣
981s don't
@@drunvert thanks for replying........ Yes, have since learned that since posting my comment. The 981 ticks a lot of boxes,...... Now im torn between gearboxes,, was initially adamant on the PDK for the tech....... But now possibly thinking about a manual
@@robertandrews6555 mine has a manual and I absolutely love it.
If you are going to commute in traffic or you plan on tracking it for times, then PDK.
If it is just a drivers car. Screw the PDK.
I've heard the 3.4 is more prone to scoring than the 3.2. 2.7 very rare I've also heard. If you want peace of mind pay a fortune more and buy a gen 2.
Very true, If you want Gen 1 it is a wise choice to go for 2.7. Gen 2 cars are unaffected so again make a good choice but they are a lot more money. I suppose that’s why people end up with the Gen 1.
But does it have also IMS bearing issue 2.7 engines??
Nope, not the 56 plate onwards cars as far as I know
sounds like the only way to avoid is to keep it in the garage?
That and not drive it 🤣
knock wood, my 07 does not smoke on start up or at any other time.
That’s great! Is it an S?
@JoeTalksCars it is an S, and I hope I have a hens tooth copy. It's like somebody up there likes me.
I just broke one hand brake cable. So I'll take it as an omen and replace all the cables. My roof hasn't dropped yet either, thank god. but it did start behind the passenger headrest.
Porsche should have never abandon nick sealing the cylinders.
I know :(
The problem is that the IMS issue was always overblown. So, people apply the same thinking. And now there's a backlash from the ill informed that bore scoring is overblown and it's quite rare. It's not. It's endemic and far more widespread than IMS issues were on the earlier engines. People get quite angry and aggressive asserting it's only 'x%' of engines. And as a consequence the reality of the problem is being obscured. They all score, it's just a question of when. Most have scored significantly by about 80k. There are zillions of cars out there with cheap steel liner repairs done by traders and the owners don't even know that's what they've got. Plus all the cars that have had new blocks with Porsche under warranty. If you took a random sample of 987.1 3.4s you'd find the majority had either been repaired or had significant scoring. It would be the minority that were on their original liners with no scoring. But for some people, always those who are less informed, there's increasingly a push back against this reality. So it goes.
Yeah more was talked about with IMS. The thing I don’t understand is why steel liners are worse? I just don’t get how Hartech can line the cylinders with a different material and find it better? Strasse race their rebuilt engines on steel liners with no issues.
@@JoeTalksCars There's lots of info out there on why steel liner is worse. It's not suitable for the M97 block design. Can work fine in other block designs.
Reckon my 987.1 with 14k on the clock should do me a good while yet 😊
Yeah I mean that’s not a lot of miles. Incredible! Mind you mine went at 40k
Is this purely a 3.4 problem are the 2.7 ok ? I recently saw a 2.7 for sale for just over 7k with over 160 k on the clock it sold very quick , the talk of bore scoring is very off putting unfortunately as they are awesome cars
Yeah so it’s more or less exclusively the 3.4 and many 911 with bigger engines. Shame really but the 2.7 does seem to be the pick of the bunch.
2.7 don’t suffer from bore score at all. 2007 onwards don’t really have IMS issues either.
Plan on getting the engine rebuilt and bored out... before you buy.
That’s probably the best idea!
My 987 s model has bore scoring 90%
Really? Is it smoking?
@@JoeTalksCars it smokes a bit on cold start, oil consumption is terrible, and there is some ticking (knocking) sound on idle when hot
@@ИванСычев-ж2э how bad is the consumption?
The notes are somewhat scientific in terms of engine numbers, though it requires some head-scratching from your list that Gen 1 987 caymans suffer, but Gen 2’s not so. Unless my R is susceptible? Though I haven’t heard any stories or scoring in Gen2’s.
Your notes probably say that but it’s all a bit like algebra. Couldn’t it be explained more simply?
They changed the cylinder coating and also the bearing design from 2009 (gen 2), so no scoring or IMS worries...and that is why a gen 2 model cost's WAY more than a gen 1.
@@vincentlong8773 that is not covered in the video - it should be
Il have a look and see. It’s basically all cars from 1997 to 2006 from what I can tell. Bigger the engine the more likely.
Yeah forgot to mention that. This was just about the Gen 1 car. However I have heard of 1 Gen 2 car with scoring, that was abused from new tho.
Porsche prices are unbelievable considering their awful reliability and durability.
It does seem that way.
Why do we just accept this? Why isn't this issue a lifetime warranty issue? Class action against Porsche? It's a design flaw and an unacceptable one.
My Cayman shows NO signs, NO signs at the moment of suffering, but when it does, I'll swap in an LS3. I was going to rebuild or do a 911 Turbo swap, but why? Porsche engines are crap. Nice cars and I love it, but the engine is a lump of crap. Also watch for leaking fuel tank. Another common point of failure. If my Cayman wasn't so friggin pretty and nice to drive, I'd get rid of it tomorrow. Lastly I don't know how true it is, but I've heard bore scoring is less likely in warmer, dryer climates. I live in Perth Australia so I'm hoping that's true. My car was an original Perth car, and has never left the state. Fingers crossed, but if it does happen, hello V8 engine swap :D Part of me HOPES it happens.
I get that. The engines sound good and perform well but are so flawed it’s a joke. Wish it was accepted by Porsche and on a recall. Yeah I’ve heard that too about climate. That would be interesting to see the figures on cars affected. It does seem to be all cars from this generation tho.
@@JoeTalksCars V8 mate. LS engines are a dime a dozen over here (at the moment) :D The USA do it and they say the weight distribution is the same as the original Porsche engine. If that's true, you get more power, a better car, and any monkey can work on it. Win win.
“ball scoring” ? sure doesn’t sound good
That sounds painful
2.7 PORSCHE 987 is really reliable ;-) Title is not so accurate. Pitty.
Basically stop buying Porsche's
All of the flat 6 water cooled motors have scoring
perhaps the first generation Boxter
Look at something else Mercedes Audi Honda all make reliable cars
Bore scope will not pick up the scoring unless its done from below as the scoring starts at the bottom
Do you think the seller will let you take the oil pan off😅
Not all the versions suffer it. The Turbo doesn’t, GT cars and even the smaller engined Boxster and Cayman are fine.
Every fanboy of every car brand always believes that if you change your oil every 5000km, you cant have issues.
Yup, total bs really. Just luck of the draw
I had a porche, worst case ever! WHY NOT AN EXPENSEIVE CAR THAT HAS PROBLEMS ALL THE TIME?! STUPID
Yeah agreed they can be bad. Mines been fine since the initial bore score situation.
It's ridiculous how over-rated German cars are. IMS bearing, subframe issues and other major, major engineering flaws. I owned two BMWs and they are shit cars. Won't touch Porsche for same reason.
🤣🤣 couldn’t agree more. As much as I love Porsche. They are not as well engineered as people have you believe. Couldn’t have said it better myself!
Skip to 5 minutes for the answer, especially if you dont want to hear pasty boy ramble on about random internet nonsense.
Lovely comment. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Glad I wasted a few minutes of your life. 👍
it's just a matter of time before countless Porsches become victims of bore scoring. You can't "avoid" it.
Yeah it does seem like that unfortunately
You pronounced Porsche wrong... LOL
Not exactly. Just maybe different. In the UK most say it this way.
Go buy an Aston Martin for £20.000 but when they go wrong they’re not a £20.000 car to fix, they’re still a £100.000+ car to fix
Same as the cayman. I’ve been lucky with mine it’s been no trouble at all…
I’ve always thought that. It’s true, the cayman wasn’t that cheap to buy new so I expect fairly big bills. A failed engine however 🤣
My advice is don’t buy a Porsche, buy something else Ford Fiesta, Citroen 2CV, Bmw, AUDI, Lamborghini gaillardo V10 for £50 grand now… why bother with a Porsche they’ve always been shite, just a VE beetle with the front stretched out at the end of the day. Good lord…
Yeah to be fair I’ve been surprised with what I heard goes wrong with these, not the German build you initially expect. Mind you it’s a 17 year old car now, things will and have gone wrong.
if I defined a porsche as "just a VW beetle with the front stretched out", I`d stay away from porsches, too!
Nice looking car with crap engine.
I mean you are not wrong🤣 it’s less crap now it works tho
They’re only 20 grand live with it
Still a lot for an engine to go bang
My cayman s.1 suffered with bore scoring🥲
How Porsche make such beautiful looking cars but make engines made out of paper is beyond me