I feel like early in the game they had a good hand in the power budget with characters like Silver Wolf, Luocha, Blade, etc... They were strong characters but had limitations that left room for future characters to compete without having to break the power ceiling. However, I don't know what changed when they released Ruam Mei and Acheron but whatever it was made them throw any notion of balance out the window. It was from then on that every new support had to have the equivalent of 3 different characters in their kit and every DPS had to be able to do twice the damage of the previous one with half the investment.
Yeah, 100% agreed. Maybe it's because ruan sold so well that they were like "well I guess this is what the playerbase is okay with", but it still is unfortunate either way.
I would argue that the first case of serious powercreep came from DHIL. He was a bigger power leap comparatively at launch than than Ruan Mei was when she released. It was the first time we saw a character easily doing multiple hundreds of thousands of damage. She was very good at the time, but her value was nowhere near what it has become over time. For example basically all the break related parts of her kit were mostly just for some extra survivability rather than being an entire extra window of damage for superbreak teams like it is now. Also I'd like to add the main reason I mention DHIL is because powercreep was not even in the cards for discussion until his release. At that point people started to talk about how he was very powerful, and they were worried that this would start a trend of insane powercreep.
@@Sakamoto_1535E3 Ratio was and still is good, but what really pushed him above and beyond was Robin, when he came out he was interchangeable with DHIL depending on the fight.
Thank god you didn’t view SW falling off being due to Boothill,FF, and Feixiao, because with all due respect this is a dumb way of thinking yet it’s so common. SW literally did not fall off because of implant or even weakness ignore, that was never the reason, you could argue it took away some of her uniqueness but thats all. Reason is simply other supports do her main job better (make dps do more damage) whether those teams have a dps with weakness ignore/implant, or not, other supports basically fit like a glove in their best teams and have almost no issues. SW was kinda doomed from the get go, the more dps and RESISTANCES (not weaknesses) you covered with other dps you pulled, the lower her value would be.
I think what makes difficultly feel more oppressive in HSR is that so many bosses and challenges are designed with two or three specific characters in mind. The moment you don’t have one, it’s incredibly hard to compensate because there’s no 4 star equivalent or team alt. While Genshin does in fact make bosses and challenges that clearly lean in specific character promotions, you still make ten other teams to kill that boss. Even if you have the character designed for the challenge, you run their 4th best team and find success cause the other units still compensate for their premium counterparts in some shape or fashion. That new Monkey Boss without Rappa just kinda sucks to deal with. 😅
@@leeminhyung167 Hoolay only has 3 options to fight him with which is Yunli Firefly and Feixiao and two of those have team comps that require certain characters.
I think part of this inflation comes from the fact that it seems they didn't really have fully fleshed out archetypes at the release of 1.0 and took it upon themselves to create distinct playstyles for 2.0. So characters who released during the 2.X series belong to these individual archetypes and feel so much stronger and due to have a playstyle that is actually supported by the game while others don't. And they need to inflate these HP values because once you assemble all the pieces of one of these teams, the amount of damage you can generate is insane compared to your 1.X DPS who don't seem to really have any homes. Individual power budgets wouldn't be so bad if older units were also given the same level of care and attention, but we all know that Hoyo rarely goes back and uplifts older units directly.
I definitely agree with this. Like in seele's case, there's no team that can be built around an "extra turn on kill" because it's so 1 dimensional - she kills, or she doesn't. All you can do for her is buff damage and literally nothing else. Compare that to the recent fua characters where they are all synergistic with each other and it's a night and day difference.
@@fl2ur I agree as well and I have hope in the future that perhaps we'll see older units continue to get uplifted - take Topaz and JY for example, who struggled with meta relevance upon their release but with the synergistic teams shot to relevancy. Even Seele has hope of being 'redeemed' in the event a unit able to buff her damage to insane heights based off speed were to exist, as even at E0 she has a 25% speed increase in her kit, or a unit who buffs a character's damage based off having less hits, to make her ult possibly nuke harder. The ONLY unit who I can still see struggling even with the addition of a dedicated support is Yanqing since SO much of his kit is reliant on him not taking damage AND his buffs only lasting 1 turn anyways. Even with insane supports like Sunday and Robin out there, he has so little to properly convert into damage that it's hard to imagine a balanced support existing that wouldn't make other units be TOO strong.
I agree with this. Before Sunday I didnt even know what a good jy team would be (I dont have sparkle) and the same applies to my Blade and Jingliu that cannot use the same Support 2.x units use to even close to the similar effect unless you pull for supp eidelons. Sundays kit is so loaded and the AV on summon and cleanse fixes the major issue that was in JY Design that he is actually one of my favorite units now after being benched for a Year. Lmao. At this point we will have kit designs so bloated and fight enimies with an HP Pool of an aeon before we reach anything close to an aeon (like 6.0 endgame or smth). These 1.x units have so many random limitations and punishable Designs but so little room to actually reign the Benefit of it. Like Blade solo sustain, and the Hp drain on your Team with jingliu does also very little than force you to run a sustain on low invest.
Part of the issue is how quick they were to treat game mechanics like inconveniences. Weaknesses annoying? All type toughness damage (rip Silver Wolf). Energy annoying? Unique energy mechanics/innate ER mechs. Having your enemies attack too annoying? Advanced Forward. The only balancing route they left themselves is damage, unlike Genshin where they have elements and reactions.
This I definitely think is one of the problems, how they essentially disrespect and break, their own game mechanics. It's cool and novel and even a relief at first, but then in the long run it leaves you nothing to overcome. Part of the fun is in figuring out how to work around the limitations set up with what you have, but then they just decided to hand you the solution on a silver platter. I remember how in the beginning I wished I could bring one more character because I needed a certain element, but couldn't replace anyone on the team or else they'd either die or take forever to kill the enemy. Which led to wishing more characters would do more things. And that's the route they went. I wonder what would've happened instead if we could've brought a team of five instead, but each character was limited to one or two things, and no character did the same two things. Maybe some overlap, like say how Clara and Yunli both are physical destruction and counterattack, but then one of them lands bleed and the other deals extra break dmg or smthn instead. Or one counters when they're hit themselves (and has increased aggro working as a pseudo sustain like a tank/bruiser) and the other counters when others are hit. Instead of ending up with, "X, but better." Point is, they ran out of creativity in terms of gameplay and resorted to the laziest solutions possible by basically just removing their own limitations. With summons we're now getting that fifth team member ON TOP of already bloated kits instead😮 I'm getting more and more convinced I should just quit the community and return to the true single player experience and just enjoy the game for the story and not worry about the characters, because everywhere this seems to be all people talk about and it's so very VERY depressing...😑
I agree, also the paths the characters follow have lost quite a bit of their uniqueness (aside of the Lightcones they have available) because many characters now seems to dip into different paths.
it's such a shame. I see why the developers are doing this they've dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of that easily, but damn it devs just try to, my e2 Acheron obliterates all the content with max points or low cycles. The inflation isn't working it just makes the other team archetypes unusable without having a wallet. PLEASE I JUST WANNA USE MY DOT TEAM AGAIN
@@lazaruslong697he is objectively right though, all three game modes are in favor of dot right now with svarog having both electric and wind weakness, apoc first side having a dot buff, and the whole pf being dot related
@jp-dx6829 That may be true for the current instance of those modes, but what about the next? As soon as those buffs switch, DoT will most likely become as irrelevant and niche as it always has been. Not saying you can't use it, but boy, does it suck in comparison to anything else. You know, even a broken clock is right twice a day kind of situation...
Ruan Mei was their first true overtuned release, she has so many stuff in her kit you could almost swear you are reading seperate kits. but that aside, 2.x was the version of them pushing archetypes and selling teams instead of individual characters like 1.x which contributed to powercreep as it meant your character wasnt at it best without X and Y ( try playing Fei without Robin or Firefly without Ruan Mei ) while 1.x chars already dont have dedicated supports like Blade and JL I noticed that ever since Robin and HMC released is when HP inflation became a thing, i genuinly believe that if it wasn't for both we wouldn't be in this situation right now. Robin is simply way too strong for this game's health as a singular unit, something even Ruan Mei before her didn't do. same thing for HMC despite being a free unit as with basically no investement you're outdamaging most crit DPS's with a average investement On that topic, i feel like it's less units being overall ''overloaded'' and more so Harmonies specifically being overloaded, overbloated and overtuned all at once while doing things Nihilities really should be doing not them. Ruan Mei has so many stuff in her kit she might as well be 3 character kits at once ( why does a Harmony unit have res pen in her base kit as well as knockback after breaking ? thats the most nihility thing ive ever read ), Robin's 100% teamwide AA was always gonna be a problem and im surpised NO ONE saw it coming not mentioning the overtuned damage buffs and Sunday is a Bronya promax that feels more so overloaded than overtuned ( he still is overtuned ) but im positive my opinion will change as soon as we get summon DPSs, Sparkle is the only actually balanced Harmony as she sticks to her gimmick and look at her now losing to two characters not even supposed to buff her archetype due to how overtuned they are. on the other side we have JQ who might be the most balanced 2.x unit as he just.... makes enemies take more damage while doing small damage. Black Swan does DoT and amps damage by def shredding and vunlerability. what im trying to say is that Harmonies are always overtuned and doing way too much to the point where you never really need a 4star or a nihility unless you don't have them. ofc there are exception like Aven's shields being too strong while being easily refreshable or Feixiao having rainbow toughness ignore for seemingly no reason but these are'nt reasons that ''hurt'' the game compared to the teamwide buffers I think 3.x is when they will try to ''fix'' powercreep if JY is any indication especially if you've seen the dreams, as it seems HP inflation is simply them overcorrecting for the mistake they've done with Robin and Superbreak. or of course they could just double down on it and drive HP inflation to the moon.
@@pein4332 I hope so... Acheron(the most hyped character of all time) rerun selling criminally low and hoyo getting no tga(hsr wasn't even nominated at anything for tga, that's underwhelming for a company like hoyo and the fact game is still not even 2 year old imo, whereas genshin still stands somehow)/way less rewards than usual this year awakens them a bit And yeah, I REALLY hope they try to fix our dissatisfaction with Penacony(2.x) arc, they just need to want to fix it.
@@dreamsandhopes6802 in HSR your lifespan as a top dps is shorter than the time it takes for you to rerun, this happened to everyone. By the time acheron reran, Yunli, FF, Boothill and Fei were all either strictly better or situationally better at equal investment.
I think there's also one major factor that contributed to HSR'S imbalance, and that inherently as a turn basec game, it's very bare bones and simple. And thats not a bad thing per say, but then theres only so much you can do to increase the difficulty when all you have are three buttons to work with. You can have certain mechanics, yes, but at the end of fhe day increasing HP is really the only thing you can do to increass fhe difficulty. I think Aventurine is the only boss whose mechanics actually require a plan ahead, but honestly even that is easily countered. Ive seen some people say that you dont need to full star the endgame, and yes you dont have to, but... HSR clearly cares about the combat, as seen by the stupidly overtuned new characters and the fact that we've got THREE endgame modes, not to mention the stimulated universe if you count that, when the game is barely 2 years old. It's not like Genshin where you actually dont need to fully star the endgame because you play that for the story and exploration, in HSR the combat actually matters (and frankly i just dont find the story that interesting tbh.).
I think the devs of HSR are focusing on the team archetypes, and not the actual characters. Genshin has characters that can solo *ahem WATER DRAGON* and the team buffs him. While in HSR, the META is to build a team around an idea. (Fua, Crit, Break, summon).
You aren’t gonna solo anything in hsr unless it’s e6s5 latest dps. In genshin there is much more skill expression and you can just not take damage, in hsr damage is inevitable
@@verse2702 agreed! Best bet would be adventurine or blade. But that's hyper investment! Genshin drops someone like that once in a while. Hsr really, and I mean REALLY plays hard into the team game
@@verse2702yeah I think that’s because one game is a completely different type of gameplay then the other, you aren’t soloing moc with one character because of the turn based nature of it while you can theoretically solo the abyss with one character if you are good enough or just have Mr water dragon and a max dpi mouse, genshin itself is more of a casual go around and explore vs starrails focus on endgame activities that all have different types of gameplay, yeah sure you might not be able to clear with 1.X dps but that’s kinda how most gacha’s are, is it bad? Yeah it’s not good that old units can’t be used to beat current endgame, but that’s just how it is sadly, if you are struggling with endgame with your old characters then you can also just save up for a new dps or support, yknow normal progression where you are not meant to only play with your old units, at some point they won’t be viable anymore. idk tho about how genshin is all I know is every friend I have seen play the game easily clears the abyss and it looks so boring.
Oh and older units such as jingyuan are now even stronger as their niche is getting more support, hypercarry such as seele aren’t as lucky tho but I don’t expect the first ever limited character to be that viable
Also one thing I dislike in hsr compared to other turn based games or turn based gacha games i played (fgo, e7, r1999 or magia) is that all of its major end game mode revolve around time/turn limit instead of actually clearing the content. Like lets take moc, apoc or pf for example. Remove their turn limit and suddenly the game mode becomes extremely easy, just use a healer+shielder and become immortal. The real challenge is the timer and enemy hp and boss gimmicks more serve as an obstacle to your damage race. Thats why they have to rely a lot more on hp scaling enemy more or designing units that do more damage instead far more than any of these where they can go around introducing new gimmicks and units that counter those gimmicks Also as someone who has played other turn based games, having a two button gameplay really feels like limiting the creativity of the kits in this game even though i would say they have done excellent job so far with this limitation
I actually have a video discussing the timed end game stuff being a problem! It's a few videos back called "HSR Needs new end game". Really, I feel adding more diversity to the end game would go a long way to making everything feel better.
I feel that first bit. I've taken breaks from genshin multiple times in the past and I have never felt that punished for it besides missing out on some events and pulls. Taking a break from HSR made me almost not want to try playing again after seeing how far behind I was. I have massively caught up since then with some absurd luck, double robin in one ten pull then Feixao on my next pull, then recently I got Sunday, his lightcone, and Jingyuan all in about 150 pulls. Suddenly after somewhat building these new teams the endgame content is extremely easy, which goes to show just big the gap has become.
Yeah this was my experience too. I’ve taken several breaks in Genshin and it’s always easy and even refreshing to jump back into it. HSR on the other hand feels like I’m being punished for not playing. Everything feels tougher and I can’t even think of doing endgame modes anymore. Took several months but after getting Firefly, Robin, Sunday, Aventurine, Huohuo and Jing Yuan the game actually feels playable now and I’m having fun again. Honestly if this keeps up, the next time I take a break might result in me dropping the game because good grief was it rough trying to catch up.
Honestly same. I frequently take breaks from Genshin and I always come back with nothing amiss except for events, meanwhile I dread having to take some time off HSR because I know it only gets harder with every patch. It sucks because I genuinely enjoy HSR but idk if I can keep playing like this.
I always felt universal break was a dumb mechanics but they proceed to double down and introduced guaranteed weakness implant and ability to shred weakness even faster like why.
It was okay when the universal break or implant was single target. If anything it would've been nice to only give it to Hunt characters, for balance. Then they made Acheron and Firefly.
I feel like Universal break is a near-mandatory effect for Break-centered units. A non-break DPS/team can typically do 60-80% of their damage when fighting off-element content, a Break team fighting against off-element does like, 5-10% of their total damage at best, before accounting for resistances. If Hoyo wanted to make any break damage units mainstream, they needed some means to break enemies off-element. If not for implant/rainbow break, Rappa, Firefly, and Boothill would be completely irrelevant in any non-matched element fight, not just weaker like non-break units. That said, I don't understand why Acheron and Feixiao needed universal break in their kits. I feel like non-break centered units don't really need universal break.
@@ruiyan6797 break units can break enemy much faster than average unit and that's already an incentive to go for them based since they shut down the boss gimmick. I think Sunday boss is an example of that where him having very hard to break toughness should have prevented break units from excelling but it actually ends up then doing better since other teams aren't as good since they have to deal with his gimmicks multiple times or in case of apoc, just get the mode buffs faster And another advantage of break is simply that you don't even need as much sustain. As someone who has boothill, it's very noticeable cuz not only does the dude has fastest shred in the game but his ult also delay enemy action for some reason so I can run him sustain less very reliably and I am someone who refuses to roll Ruan mei who could have further extended his ability to prevent enemy from taking action
@@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584 Yet performance-wise, they don't perform that much better than other team archetypes. They might have slightly more consistent sustainless clears and 0-cycles than other archetypes, but their performance isn't that much better when they are ON-element in optimised scenarios. It might be slightly comfier, but that doesn't matter that much when another archetype can often just kill a boss instead. Sunday is also a boss that's almost tailor-made for break, since you can cut off a lot of his damage by consistently and repeatedly breaking all his adds. He is so tailor made for break that he's supposed to be the boss fight that sells you Harmony Trailblazer. It's hardly a fight that's designed to be difficult for break. And the moment they go off element, without omni-break or weakness implant, they're fucked. Without the ability to break, you get walled by the simplest, single mook enemy in PF, or Story, or SU, or DU. (unless you have the break spreading blessings) And a lot of omni-break also breaks at 50% toughness efficiency anyways. They're still subject to slower clears and damage type resistances even with their weakness implant and omni-break.
Honestly I think another issue with HP inflation and Unit design is that alot of 1.x characters were just poorly designed. There is such a gap between 1.x characters that are relevant and the ones falling off design wise and how they can synergize with future kits. Like Jingliu pretty much capped at her release, sure we have gotten supports that make her better, but her kit is so airtight that there just isn't much you can do to actually buff her directly. Meanwhile Topaz has alot of flexibility in her kit and can be usable in a variety of ways especially with Sunday out. JingYuan has gotten buffed by Sunday aswell but alot of the pain points of his kit design still remain and he is bound to be replaced, from building stacks of LightingLord to Lighting Lord being pushed back if Jing Yuan gets CC'd there are just pain points to his kit that future units probably won't have. Hell if I'm being honest DOTs biggest issue is probably Kafka, sure she's the machine to get the comp going but she's not a very good one because all she is a retrigger not an amplifier which is what DOT actually needs. Even in her skill it only allows dots to do 75% of their original damage, I personally think if Kafka was designed today, she would boost the dot damage instead. Even for Mid characters like Jade who only specialize in PF, she has flexibility to her kit and any strong Erudition, mass AOE, or HP drain units in the future will allow her to stay relevant, and speaking of Blade has more future potential than alot of other 1.x units that used to be vastly superior to him. His biggest issue wasn't his kit but the lack of support for it which can be easily fixed in the future and fights like Hoolay show that he actually can scale pretty well with certain fight designs unlike a lot of other characters. Its sad but alot of 1.x characters just weren't made well while alot of 2.x characters can easily stay relevant with the release of future characters or interesting fight mechanics.
ive been playing hsr on and off since it launched, but only recently started to actively play it. And boy let me tell you, these new units are so strong that i dont even bother with the old ones. they make the early game zoom by QUICK
I think I see your point and I agree. Due to that newer characters are getting better, stronger, and more complicated, the developers are just responding and making the end game content much harder to make some kind of "balance." However, the only downside is that if that "balance" would make more players hate the game and ultimately leave, you know. So, it is a much harder to balance to satisfy players. I would admit that the MOC currently has enemies with ridiculous amount of HP, but I can clear most of it with three stars. Not a perfect score, but I also decently invested my characters. I also think that other problem is that a lot of players (not everybody) are just complaining because it is not the game's issue, but more of a "skill issue" on the player's side. I know that sounds redundant because making fun of a player's skill issue is like an old traditional meme or whatever, but it is kind of true for some people. If you cannot beat the bosses in the game without reading how they work or if you have like a relic set that doesn't quite work well with the team you are using, you will never defeat them or at least have a very hard time doing so.
This is an problem i usually call “the acheronification” of hsr, where they made her so broken that now everything has to compete with her, pushing the dps standard constantly higher and higher and then they need hp to compensate for it, the sad thing is many old units have very good designs on paper (jingliu, dhil, silver wolf, blade, kafka) but suffer from either lower multipliers because the standard of today is so much higher or are completely replaced due to direct powercreep of what they do (like silver wolf being phased out of the meta by dpses just implanting their own weaknesses or ignoring them) The characters not being balanced around a relic set is a pretty interesting idea, it makes units that either a) dont have a perfect relic set, or b) get a new one much later when its already too late (ex: jingliu) suffer significantly more, not to mention how op new relic sets are, id really like them to go back and buff old units, wont happen but one can dream I am just hoping 3.X tones it down a little bit, i feel like a lot of people now skipping acheron on her rerun is a wake up call
Id honestly argue it started with Ruan Mei before acheron, people just didn't realize it yet because she hadn't gotten to her full potential(superbreak) yet. Acheron definitely brought dps into the equation more, but it was already happening earlier imo.
@ yeah shes definitely a factor too, she set the bar very high for supports while acheron did that for dpses, even if her value didnt come out fully until break and ESPECIALLY when APOC came out, that mode can be miserable if you dont have her, acheron pretty much dominated the second she released which is why id attribute it more to her than to mei, but both are true, same way how we see characters like aventurine just dominate the entire sustain meta, setting a extremely high bar for sustains especially preservation and gallagher doing what seems to be setting a much higher expectation for four stars, at least imo he is
I agree will all that you said, except the SW part, her fall off was due to support powercreep essentially, not because breakers could ignore weakness or Feixiao, even just before break took over she wasn’t really great in any team and you would much rather play a harmony like Robin or RM or sparkle even. You could say her uniqueness was stripped away but its not because of implant on dps that she fell. The main thing that SW helped in was attaching a -20% res to the enemy making it as if they actually had a weakness to that element, breakers don’t do that, they still lose 20% of their damage if the enemy isn’t weak to their element. So yeah it was because other supports are insane and have next to no issues that SW got phased out, her supportive capabilities, SP economy, and team variety just doesn’t match theirs at the end of day.
I'm so confused why people think that Acheron did anything when she was literally competitive with DHIL w/ Sparkle and Kafswan at release.. and they both were available BEFORE Acheron. It's not until the lineups favored Acheron more, or until JQ released that Acheron was truly better than them. Not to mention that the perception of her performance is flawed to begin with because most people assume she has her signature. SW isn't being phased out by DPSes just implanting their weaknesses, she's just not good period. The only reason she was still meta was because she was competitive with Harmony units with Acheron, but now JQ exists and you can replace the second nihility even more easily thanks to JQ stacks gen. These DPSes existing or not wouldn't change anything.
I agree that it has gotten ridiculous, power creep is necessary but the fact that E1S1 jingliu is p much unusable right now is crazy. When Acheron came out they were both top tier, which means in less than a year she’s gone from clearing everything at E0S0 with ease to no data for MOC12
Ruan mei and Acheron really were the watershed moment, these 2 completely eclipsed their respective competitions and everything after that has just a one upping mess.
Giga cope. Balance patches will never happen in a hoyo game, however since HSR has shown some creativity I am willing to bet maybe sorta kinda could be a 0.1% chance they look at some underperforming characters, but individually most likely. Some units unironically make pennies on reruns now because they just become useless due to powercreep, like why would you pull Blade nowadays unless you REALLY like him?
@@vinhinh6810 nope i didnt play genshin in a long long time , but many games do balance patches for a lot of characters, it wouldnt be Impossible but it likely wont happen
When you mentioned characters doing too much. This reminded me of the gacha i came from. Final Fantasy Brave Exvius, or FFBE for short. It started with characters doing a single thing, kinda like Natasha is a healer, she heals. period. But, by the time of its EoS recently (End of Service), it went way too deep into the powercreep hole. Every unit is an absolute monster of a powerhouse and every single one of them HAD to do everything! Deal Damage, heal, buff, debuff, whatever else is possible. If you didn't have at least 3 to 6 well built units on your team, you would be COOKED in the endgame. But there is a catch... if you were a day one player like myself. You would be fine. You would always have enough to pull for units and could easily keep up with the ascending meta. Sadly for new players it isn't that simple, right? HSR is suffering form the same problem rn, at least i believe. I see a lot of new players complaining that it has been too hard to catch up. While day one players like myself aren't struggling at all. Either Hoyo has a plan that couldn't be fulfilled during the game release, or they are deliberately falling the power creep hole and in two years we'll be dealing 1 billion damage in MOC. I just hope Hoyo do something for older units so they can at least be useful... I fear this decision could be simply re-releasing older characters into new gacha version of themselves. Like DHIL (which is already not optimal, but can still be saved by releasing new characters that buffs Basic ATK/Skill Consumption.)
I had a friend really invested into ffbe, he even got me to play it are little around the time there was like a 6 or 7* cloud and tifa releasing. Honestly my biggest thing with that game is that it felt overwhelming to get into, which kinda points to your point of HSR suffering the same problem for new players. Like, if I was a new player rn and wanted to clear a 5m hp boss in MoC with my base dan heng I'd be like "wtf how is that possible" and the only answer is "get broken supports or replace dan with a newer unit". But how is that new player even meant to figure that out? What if base dan is the unit they want to use but can't? It's just a mess at this point.
It's definitely not that simple, I didn't play since day 1, but I'm logging in daily since Silverwolfs banner and I still often struggle to clear. 3 stars on MoC 12 are definitely not something that's possible to get with my E0S0 Jingliu,, and my Bronya is E0S0 as well, I just had no luck. If the Weakness mix isn't favorable for my roster, I have to spend a lot of time crafting a team that doesn't suck. The problem is simply that I ain't meta slaving. I don't have the latest supports (Robin, Lingsha), I didn't like their designs. I'm not pulling Sunday for the same reason. I built a Crit Kafka because I wanted her to be useful outside of DoT (which seemed very weak at the time). Of course you can say these issues are self inflicted. But my point is just that it's not reasonable to expect everyone pulled all the characters and built all the characters simply because they played for a long time.
HSR is a victim of the fact it's a pure numbers game, there isn't much flexibility to the gameplay itself since at the end of the day the gameplay is just when to use three options and on whom. It feels like Hoyo doesn't understand It's fine for characters to be just a bit stronger than their predecessors but Hoyo is definitely underestimating how much players like the characters, their designs, and animations. As a new player that just started 2 patches ago I was HYPED for Sunday even though I just finished Penacony because the story was just that good. Sunday and Jing Yuan are the first characters I was able to pull and did pull. That's because their stories were just SO GOOD. I didn't care Sunday was super powerful, I just liked his design.
While I don't know the level of a take this is. I feel like part of the problem is how a section of the playerbase almost demands that the next character be that much stronger. I remember how with one of Fugue's earlier version, in a pure DPS setting she was essentially a sidegrade and in some instances weaker than HMC, which I found fine since she had her exo toughness which made her preferable in certain settings there were those who wanted her strength to be "layman levels" noticeably stronger. there was also on top people wondering why her ultimate dealt so much damage not regarding that it was an ultimate that dealt a lot of toughness damage to all enemies full stop. There was also how rappa was considered weaker because she couldn't implant weakness even though she already have penetration. Lingsha being seen as a gahlleger side grade "not in a good way" and look at how she is performing. Earlier than that there were complains that feixiao had her speed reduced from a value that could make her go 5 times a cycle on speed boots alone. Doom post stating that firefly was mid and worthless, look at her now And the oh so famous "who wants a new 4-star. who wants their favourite character to be the new 4-star" just look at ororon. I feel like the players should also grow to accept a character would be released not so strong and accept it.
Thats the funny thing is people don't want there favorites to be the one who got the short end of the stick as the character who tones down the scaling so you see a lot even more so for characters that have a solid first impression in terms of design and personality doomposting and begging for buffs.
That is just another consequence of the same issue, the Devs are the ones who conditioned the player base to think that way by consistently releasing characters consistently stronger than the previous one. The scrutiny towards fugue's kit was born from the fear of "what if I pull for this character that is just slightly better than a free one and hoyo just a few patch down the line release the Sunday to her sparkle?"
@@joyboy_3165 While there is merit to your perspective let me engage you in this hypothetical. Say Fugue resulted in mathematically less damage than HMC, she would still have her exo-toughness which would make her the better support for Rappa, Himeko and xueyi, she is not "stronger" than older units but provided utility that makes them worthwhile, but some people don't want that some people want her to have that utility and be mathematically stronger than HMC. those are the people who I'm pointing my finger at.
@SkyDrifter2025 Yes I got that the first time around and I'm saying even though I'm not part of that crowd I personally can't blame them for feeling that way because their sentiment was ultimately born of the now long standing precedent hoyo has set in this game.
I think the main problem is that people want stronger characters and in a game like HSR, a turn based RPG, it's what the people pay for. In genshin there is the open world aspect, which makes it more "casual" in a way, so the characters don't really require to be too strong, as they already one shot every enemy in the open world, it also doesn't need too complex as the main attraction are not the character gameplay, but the world and the character's story themselves. Meanwhile in HSR there's no such thing as open world, corridors are good time waster but is nowhere near as attractive as a fully open world, so in order for they to make character sell they need to make them stronger or something else. They probably tested the water since DHIL and JL and knew people like to roll/pay for powercreep, and acheron and ff fully proved that it totally worked. The sad thing is, i can see a world where HSR powercreep was more balanced like genshin, but people would become less interesting on rolling for characters or the characters would have been less interesting as balancing sometimes limits the creativity that can be put into a character kit, which is something that genshin is currently suffering. In short, HSR lacks the open world aspect or content of similar magnitute, so it has to sell end-game units with bigger numbers, which in turns makes the game be balanced around those new numbers.
I had a bit of a different thought. When you talked about Chasca, and this applies to other Genshin characters too as far as I'm aware, the important thing to note is that they deal mostly single target damage, while supports mostly support a single character. While raw hp numbers in HSR increased, it was partly as a result of adding more mobs. And they did this because they had to sell Erudition units somehow. Fuck, I can't properly flesh out this idea cuz I'm in a game of TFT... Hopefully you get the idea.
I get what you mean, but that's more of a venti problem I think. If genshin made their end game have mobs rather than always slamming bosses down our throats then I feel venti would take over like he did when the game released and up to 2.0. He's honestly a little bit of a stop gap himself for that game having more varied content.
@@fl2ur Oh no, I wasn't trying to shit on Genshin or anything, or maybe I misunderstood. The differences in combat between GI and HSR exists on a fundamental level, as you're probably aware. Such that, even without knowing much about Genshin, I doubt that even with hordes of mobs, Venti wouldn't be that much better. I'm speculating, but since only one character can exist on the field at any given time, any effective aoe character would necessarily have to be over tuned. When that happens, you get a repeat of HSR, where Erudition, Blast, and ST carries continue to try and powercreep each other. To bring it back to the topic of the video, I ultimately have the same conclusion, that hp has to inflate to curb that vicious cycle of creep, but we arrived there at slightly different ways. This isn't even mentioning the fact that HSR prints nearly 2 characters every patch.
@@fl2urThen just don't add smaller mobs? We've had plenty of abysses during 4.0 (presumably when you took a break) where it was AOE but they were heavy mobs like the Mechs, so Venti or any anemo couldn't group them.
8:15 We already have this tho, it's called archetypes and that's how they're currently balancing units. The real reason hp inflation is happening is because we just got two perfectly synergistic teams and the game is clearly being balanced around that. Sunday should be the strongest support in the game just because he's new and powercreep is a problem, right? Nope, he only works well in some sp intensive teams and summon teams. Break units want Ruan Mei, summons Sunday and follow up ones will want Robin. Having too many buffs or words in his abilities isn't going to make Sunday better in dot teams than whatever dot support they give us in the future.
The thing is, the more bloated kits are, the more likely a unit built for one niche can play outside of it. Robin is the best support in the game, period. You can see this in how she's used in almost every team archetype (including dot). Sunday is meant for summon units sure, but due to being bronya pro max, he's usable in the every one of the places she is. Firefly has niche use cases where she acts as a support(fire implanter) for himeko. Rappa has use cases as a universal breaker for firefly teams. The whole point of the video is that units just do too much. If you take away a little bit from their kits then they're guaranteed to stay in niche, but hoyo doesn't seem to want to do that.
@@fl2ur Yeah but they're played in other teams because the game is still new and we don't have something that covers every niche. Robin isn't going to be played in a dot team once we get a dot support, we just need to give them time. If you complained about things like Sunday powercreeping Sparkle for no reason due to his kit doing too much I would understand, but you often complain about word counts and even brought up Rappa's energy passive even tho she's clearly balanced around that because she deals basically no dmg outside of her ultimate and it costs 140 energy, so of course she's going to have something like that. You even pointed at Ruan Mei but she's no different than Bronya, they both provide a lot of different things, she's just giving buffs that actually work with break units.
1000% agree. HP inflation is a result of character inflation. But nobody wants to talk about the ridiculously strong characters that have been released lately. It's just "HP too high" types of comments. I get that people don't like talking "badly" about their favorite games, but it's just absurd.
This. I was watching a beta video of an upcoming boss in 3.0 and Feixiao running against it and some in the comments were blaming her for how absurd she came to be, as if she wasn't also a consequence from the Acheron> era of dps in this game, then a slightly weaker dps comes out and it's the same community that claims "trash, skip because they're weak". Aglaea looks like she's gonna be absurdly strong too but I wouldn't be surprised if the next Acheron ends being Castorice in terms of it being heavily felt in the game with the kit strength and enemies/mechanics built around for the character to tackle.
Thing is if X dps launches same level or even 1% weaker than the previous one, people will just say why bother or X dps is not worth or mid if you have Y, if they launch too hot (and they aren’t as beloved as say acheron and FF) they are flamed and blamed for powercreep, when it was 1000% acheron who started this whole dps powercreep shitshow to begin with. Now I am not saying we blame the character its hoyo who makes them this way, just that people even when blaming characters blame the wrong ones.
@@Radiant450 We can look at the Rappa banner as an example. Rappa was massively skipped despite having a higher ceiling than FF simply because FF/Boothill already filled a similar role and had similar performance.
Perhaps I am just making a wrong call here, but maybe the reason that people are not talking about character inflation is because how horribly bad the relic system is, like you just won't be able to build your crit characters easily, the relic system is the worst I have seen in any gacha game, ofc Acheron's kit is so good that even with low investment she can dosh out good dmg but other dps still need good builds, but the relic rng is just so horrible
As someone that has been playing gachas for close to a decade at this point, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with this. But honestly, it surprises me that this has to be even said! I'll just call the beast by it's name: This is just by the numbers powercreep. More multipliers, more kit features, more text. These are pretty good indicators for increased strength of characters. And inflated enemy stats are soon to follow, so they can match those stronger characters. This relationship between ally and enemy strength has been known for a long time! I'm honestly a bit confused why people seem to not understand this point. But I have to remember that people that play Hoyo games have very little interaction with the greater gacha space, so they are having these conversations for the first time. In that light, it makes sense that we'll retread old ground here. But that ties to a greater point here I think: While we have been in a gacha popularity boom, "quality gachas" still very much remain gachas using very much the same tactics as their brethren. It's just that people that recently entered the space haven't become quite educated to these aspects yet, which makes them more vulnerable. I do not mean to be hostile in this comment, but wanted to raise awareness, as we need to look out for each other in this space.
Agreed with a lot of this. Most of the point of the video is explaining my thought process and hopefully making people more aware of the issues. I'm a long time gacha player too, so I feel the same way you do about this.
It's more of a chicken and the egg problem. Do enemies get absurd HP values because characters are getting more and more broken, or are characters getting more and more broken because the enemies get absurd HP values? The real problem is that the team behind hsr went too fast with their gameplay visions and now we have the HP and powercreep problem.
I can definitely see this being the case. Realistically though, idk that it matters which came first because it definitely is a problem either way, like you said. HSR just kinda moved too fast compared to how other games are, and its resulted in the issues.
Yes! You've managed to descripe what's been on my mind for the last ~ year. It was kinda exciting when the first broken characters started to come out cause of wow factor, but it got old very quickly. Now I feel like every other new unit is the NEW META, the STRONGEST, the MOST USEFUL. You got new character and they are already feels weaker the next patch. Im exaggerating, but you got the point. I feel like this powercreep will be an even bigger problem in the future.
Someone is same strength level as previous best thing: why bother? Someone is better than previous best thing: POWERCREEP However this sentiment is weird because if a unit is loved enough people are willing to look the other way, its just recently that people are starting to see how unhealthy Acheron’s strength level was for the game, everyone after her is a byproduct of her strength level basically, so that they could at least compete, yet they ended up surpassing and becoming powercreep themselves.
Well Hoyo caused that mentality themselves because they make certain characters better than the others instead of balancing the game well. Boothill and Rappa was good characters but they clearly made Firefly the more definitive and versatile option since they handle single target and aoe content well nevermind she got multiple fire element teammates to help her whereas the others didn't get anything. The only dps you really needed to pull in 2.x was Acheron and Firefly because they handle the situations you would have pulled Feixiao, Boothill, Rappa, Jade or Yunli for without issue anyway because they are the favored units. Those other dps are for sure more situationally useful may even be have higher dmg ceiling like Feixiao but they don't bring much value at all if you pulled the favored units and their supports. No doubt they will make Castorice in the game Awards trailer cracked because thats clearly who they want players to focus on.
Don't know about the Chinese community, but in global there's the pervasive problem of any new character who is not direct and clear powercreep being called mid, ez skip, poor investment, etc. Hoyo's going to sell you the characters you want to buy. "Skip Lingsha, she's a Gallagher sidegrade." "Only reason to pull Fugue is in case you want to run break and RMC on the same floor." "You can skip Robin, she's a Ruan Mei sidegrade and only better for FUA (lol)". Even with kits as bloated as Sunday, you still have some saying it's better to skip and get his rerun because he just doesn't push the envelope as much RIGHT NOW. You also have some content creators / so-called "meta experts" setting 0 cycles as the standard. Even if very few players will ever reach that standard there's still the wider expectation of "If this character can't clear in 1-2 cycles they've fallen off". Which is why you now see Acheron being ragged on, whereas in my personal observations I've yet to see any indication she can't clear MoC12. Or you have some loonies calling Firefly a "fraud DPS" because "she can't 0-cycle without S5 DanceDanceDance". My only hope is that the current HP inflation was done by Hoyo to kill the expectation of 0 cycling for non-whales, because despite all of the recent complaints about powercreep I don't see anything to suggest that the current community is going to do anything but further enable it with their pulling/spending habits. In any case, pulling for meta seems like the most miserable way to play this game. Your characters aren't "investments" when a full endgame clear gives you 2% of the pulls needed to guarantee an E0S0. As much as it might suck to see 33/36 stars in MOC, I'll just ignore it if the current trend keeps up. I grew up too poor for keeping on a gacha treadmill to seem like a good use of my money.
One problem I see is a new player getting into the game, playing through the story. Maybe they read the story carefully, or maybe they just skim through it or use autoclicker. Whatever the case, they may for example see Kafka in the story and think to themselves "Hey, I really like Kafka, her banner is there and I'm gonna roll for her," and they use up 120+ pulls only to find out Kafka has been powercrept long ago.
That's a really good point, it's kinda unfortunate that new players can get stuck in the situation of wanting to pull for older characters but they're not super worth it anymore
Even if you are right. What can be affected easier? A nerf to enemy HP? Or a nerf to units? Even if you say, well going forward don't make them so strong that wont help what's already happened. I realize too that going the other direction is a problem likely also, but the simple answer for now is to nerf the HP. Or start scaling both back in the future.
I'm mixed on how the game is handling things with character power, on one hand I'm actually kind of glad that characters are actually stronger because a higher power budget means they can be more flexible in what they actually do and the more flexibility you allow a character to have the more they can use it to get into something a lot more specific and enter certain niches and promote different playstyles better. This makes me excited for characters that are more unique and interesting than what... *some* 1.X characters have been where some of their ultimates or talents or even skills sometimes felt really uninteresting and that played a fair amount into why they were ultimately just bad units by today's standards. Like look at Bronya's talent (30% action advance on using basic at lv. 10) and tell me when you're gonna ever make any use of that outside of maybe some really niche scenarios. Probably never! So I think raising the overall power level isn't bad on it's own. However there is of course the bad part to this in that yeah this does cause the enemies to get stronger and as such old units become really not good anymore. This is why I really hope that we can get more direct buffs to old units some day because some of them have pretty interesting ideas for a kit that just kinda don't get fleshed out nearly as well as if they were made today, and it's a shame because a modern version of older units that lack some pizazz in their kit would be really fun, this is why the way I hope they buff these characters is through a system similar to HI3's augment cores that kinda just change how the character works, though here I'd not make them into a totally different character, I'd want them to still keep some core ideas in the character even if they do change some parts significantly if it's necessary to be able to actually expand upon the character. Oh and of course there's still the problem of hoyoverse could potentially just keep increasing the power cap without ever really putting a lid on it and making contemporary units the best for their time in more elegant ways than being a power spike over older units (mode specific caters like MoC buffs and PF buffs and enemy lineup plays a part in doing this better than just a power upgrade but that's a whole can of worms that there's no need to get *too* deep into)
I agree with this mostly - realistically I know that it's not possible to fully keep people at even strength levels. Even if they tried, there would eventually be a slip up where someone ends up stronger than intended - what would they do then, nerf them?(no) What I really want is it to slow down at the very least by lowering the amount of things characters get in their kits, or if they want to keep giving a lot of stuff, then make each thing less potent. Like, sure Sunday could keep his AA and CD buff, but make his crit buff 8% instead of 20(wtf were they thinking)
I've seen this kind of thing everywhere: Fate Grand Order, Fire Emblem Heroes, DBZ Dokkan Battle, it always happens to my favorite Gacha games; a true shame.
I hate how people use the excuse of " they can't buff characters cause people will say why dont the buff xxx character their my main and its obvious they dont like xxx character because of xxx!1!1!"
It is funny how with arrival of Acheron all the game balance went out of the window In early 2.x patches I thought that Sparkle was the fairest character in the game (because she is) But because we got balanced characters like Acheron, FF, FX, Lingsha and Sunday, Sparkle seems just bad, terrible The archetype she supports has only one 2 charactes which she cant even support that well when it comes to her sp regen! QQ and Seele both devour more SP that Sparkle can recover The more painful thing that Sparkles specialziation buffs are just powercrept just by other characters having better buffs just by existing - Robin's concerto state, Sunday Beatified state, Ruan Mei res pen, even Moze provides more buffs than Sparkle, I think? I dont know why they didnt just stop with Acheron with the busted af units, when shes only one who makes sense to be op (even when she shouldnt be this good)
I do think another thing that really helped genshin is that it somewhat soft capped itself with archons being the peak of one thing so nothing is really trying to outdo the previous, but hsr never had that so when they released that very first over tuned character they kinda just had to continue doing it so that one character is not just the objective best while everyone else is just subpar
For me, personally, I feel somewhat conflicted, I guess? I actually do not mind the high difficulty at all, but I do feel bad over not being able to relate with some in the community and there being a disagreement from my side in general. There are two things that I should mention to contextualize things. I don't even have 35 characters on my account, and my main DPS chars are Argenti, Qingque and Serval, from 1.5 when I started playing, till today. Furthermore, and more importantly, I think that I have a preestablished and slight bias towards actually not minding the high difficulty because I came from Genshin. I played Genshin from 1.0 until the ending of Sumeru. For a vast majority of the game's life cycle, approximately from 1.3 onwards, I kind of disliked my time there in a similar way to how a lot of HSR players are feeling about the "HP Inflation" / Feature Bloat. However, I disliked my time in Genshin for the exact opposite reason, and for the same reason some might like Genshin, specifically: - I really, really, really disliked how easy the game was, it felt like I never had anything to work towards. This is coming from someone who mained Klee. (Albeit, my other main was Tartaglia.) - I really disliked how simple the character kits were, because each felt so similar to one another in my eyes. On the points of what I disliked there, I also commonly saw comments from people and discussions around these topics wherein people - I would say, based on my insight and experiences - could agree with me. Not everyone, obviously, but a chunk of people. This is not to take away from anyone liking Genshin. I stuck with the game for as long as I did specifically because I cared for the game so much to actually criticize it so much, and I suspect that people have similar outlooks on HSR. I still use old, crusty 4-star DPS units (and Argenti) because I believe in the idea that horizontal investment is the way to go in HSR, compared to the vertical investment that is present moreso in other games. I believe that in Genshin, it is incentivized to produce great stats for a few characters you wanna build, but that in HSR, it's better to produce good enough stats for a lot of characters who cover many bases. I'm still doing fine, I full cleared last PF with my Serval, about to full clear the current AS with my Qingque, etc., and I would assume it's because I invest in every unit I have a good amount. Granted, full disclosure, reason why I advocate for horizontal investment while also having below 35 chars on my acc is because I E6'd Argenti. I love that stupid man. However, I believe that horizontal investment is not easy for the general gacha audience because most gacha games kinda train the mind towards vertical investment, especially with how the culture of "maining" someone is, how humans will typically gravitate towards "perfecting" their favourites, and because its very easy to form a bond with a character in a gacha game considering how companies actively try to hook you in any way possible to feel compelled towards a character. Finally, I also think that there should be a lot more effort put into full clearing if you actually want to, but also that it is ultimately inconsequential, so it doesn't bother me too much. I see the last stars in the endgame content as something to work towards a lot, whether it be in building chars or playing a lot for the god runs. And if I fail, I do not mind it too much, mostly because I think that it's normal for the hardest of hard content in a game to be "exclusive" and also because I won't stress over, like, half a pull or something like that. (On a side-note, I also just prefer HSR's story and reward system a ton more, so that might also be something to consider if we're looking for potential biases.) (EDIT: also to add the fact that there's so much endgame, obviously, too) All in all, despite me not having many characters, nor using newer units to full clear, I do want to say that I have difficulties clearing the hardest content, as aforementioned in the last paragraph I sent, and it's not like I always manage to do it. It takes a lot of research, grinding and effort, but I don't mind it. However, just because I don't mind it, doesn't mean that I advocate necessarily for it. I left Genshin, but I accept that it's simply not for me. I think that both HSR and Genshin have their own niches, and it just depends on what you, as a player, would like more. This was a great video by the way, I wish you much luck in your TH-cam career
Rare Argenti haver spotted! I made a 2nd account forever ago just to get him back when he released. Anyway, I do want to specify the point I was trying to make in the video wasn't really about difficulty. I actually am in the same boat as you comparing genshin to hsr in terms of how genshin didn't really have any as it's a super easy game. I was more trying to point out the difference in character kit bloats between the two, and hopefully lead people to start thinking "well, maybe there's a middle ground between the two" instead of one or the other.
Increasing difficulty doesn't equal to more hp bloat, you can have one without the other, aventurine boss fight was one of the highest difficulty spikes when he's released, but he does so because of his gimmick, not just by having 5x the hp pool. You're rewarded by ulting at the right time to get it back fully after he's doing the gamba thing, while punishing people that don't. Compare that to svarog that have almost 0 mechanic except with his hand summon, and for many teams, the hand is literally a gamba that either doesn't matter at all, or fked up your speed tuning if you ignore it. And the only counter is basically breaking and killing him fast enough before he does it
Tbh I’m thinking about quitting since my biggest problem is saving up for a character. It would be good for a patch, but in a few months about 4-5 new characters would now be better than it. Sad how the devs did not take this into consideration.
I wish more people talked about that, because it really is a problem, and it should get resolved someway or another, because eventually characters will reach the point that the only new thing they're going to bring to the table is just bigger numbers. If Sunday kit is already so overloaded, imagine for example in 2 years, they release a support that buffs HP, DEF, ATK, Energy, RES PEN, Crit Rate, Crit Damage, BE, EHR, Speed, DMG at E0 alone Fun Fact: If you try to speak about powercreep problem with the russian community of HSR they will make fun of you saying that their E2 Firefly clears all content, so it's fine
Yeah I've seen some takes saying "well as long as we can clear powercreep doesn't exist", completely ignoring the fact that some people don't want to get the shiny new toy or eidolons on those toys just to do so. It's silly.
Idk about Russian community, but from my perspective (im Russian too), i think opinions are divided 60/40, where 60% - begin to be indignant, because their "acheron" has stopped passing the content. Heh.
I think this mainly has to do with the devs not being able to truly create a different playstyle. The only unique play style we've gotten since release was Dot. The others all share the same triple support glass cannon play style. They might feel different but they are the same exact thing. Like what everyone does, if you can't figure how to make something different then you just have to repeat the same things and make it better. That's how we got here. If HSR released characters slower and focused on making a characters kit more unique than we wouldn't be dealing with HP inflation this early on into the games life but who am I kidding here? They can't even make unique kits in genshin despite being 4 years in.
I noticed this when people talked about Fugue. Her kit seems pretty straightfoward. She gives break damage boost and super break damage. Her multipliers are good and she seems fun and interesting to slot into different teams. But every time she came up, there were a million reasons she sucks. "Can't use DDD on her", "She gives no speed boost like RM", "her def shred isn't that good" and I'm like, how can any character even compete with the current powerhouse supports without just having a "you win" skill button?
Yeah, Penacony had its moments but the story as a whole was kinda of a mess with a LOT of plot points not really conecting or being resolved off-screen (Aventurine being saved by Argenti, Robin whole character arc, the IPC plans to Penacony, Sparkles, etc...).
@@Truck-kun11 LOL... I'm not all the way through Penacony and I cannot figure WTF is going on. And this is coming from someone who has read Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, and the first 4 books of Wheel of Time... I don't struggle with complex plots.... I struggle when they just aren't explained. I'm sure the story is beautiful, but I cannot figure it out. Why is the cornerstone so important to an IPC member? Why did Sunday try to kill Aventurine? If you die in the dream world do you die IRL? My personal favorite: What is the Watch Maker's Legacy? I hear that term once per cut scene and I have NO IDEA what it is.... and somehow the Express Crew and Acheron are after it... and never bother explaining it... Dear, HOYO: If it's so central to the plot, at least show me a picture of the thing, or explain it. Just have a 10 second cut-scene of Sunday glancing at the Watch Maker's Legacy so I know what it is. It isn't hard to write this stuff and yet, Hoyo just cannot help themselves. It's just dialogue dump after dialogue dump.
In the early patches like 1.0 there wasn't a real focus on an team comp, that was up to players to piece together. The characters were their own units and did what they did because they could supply their own triggers to their effects. Kafka could supply her own DoTs to to trigger them in the Ult. Weakness breaks were more important because that was the only real way to get real dmg in. Despite all of that, the dmg characters could do was roughly the same so surviving an onslaught was more important than buffing. Now the dmg characters do has ballooned thanks to the onset of not just Super Break but at base newer characters just do more dmg. Instead of making use of the unique mechanics to control a fight and make them more engaging, Hoyo decided that just ballooning HP will fix it without taking into account that an HP sponge is never fun to fight.
I think kit bloat is okay, but the bloat must be "directed". Like we mention Sunday, but as absurd as his kit is, it has a clear identity, with him having all of his buffs being single target and his ult encouraging only skilling your hypercarry. Yes he is absolutely broken with what he does but there are tons of teams that do not mesh well with what he does, and there is a good chance not all summon comps will actually run Sunday despite his power level. The problem comes with characters like Robin or Fei Xiao, where the limitations were clearly not thought through. Robin's energy demands have tons of workaround, and Fei Xiao being a single target might be a joke at this point, with her damage profile and frequency of attack. Currently, any type of content can be cleared by them and any unit that attacks frequently can become an indirect buff to the team. It becomes very hard to design enemies or characters that could not play into this kind of team archetype. Hopefully summons are not a "I do everything, but with more damage" kind of deal, or else it's looking grim.
Agreed with a lot of this, though I do want to add on that being bloated/broken can bring characters outside of their intended niche - like how robin is usable literally everywhere, and how sunday despite being intended for summons is also usable everywhere bronya is, feixiao(like you said) can be used anywhere that you have a fast attacking unit(hello summons lmao)
Feixiao can't even 2c or barely the content tailored for her (current MoC first half) assuming no signature and no E1 Robin.. what's the issue here exactly? Yeah she's absolutely insane in 0c strategies, but how is that any relevant for the average playerbase? She's not any stronger than Acheron/FF except when the content is obviously tailored for her
Another thing I noticed is that characters now have their best or 2nd best Eidolon effect at E1. Sunday gets DEF shred at E1 (plus the summon gets TWICE the DEF shred) so then E1S1 Sunday is hard buffing any upcoming REM characters at just E1, if Agleae etc have DEF shred or something bonkers at E1, yeah broken game. At the same time, a subset of people are skipping characters that they know are gonna change the meta and complaining they can't clear stuff (regardless of scaling, some bosses/enemies are meant to be fought with certain archetypes)
I feel like another big part of this is that the game in general just moves so much faster than Genshin- more akin to other gachas. We get 2 characters per patch, which goes hand in hand with how much more vast these characters kits are. But in that same vein, just like other gachas, HSR is still a game of investment. Take for example Jing Yuan, he released and he was okay, but very much not as strong as he could be considering the lack of characters that could support a summon/follow up attack character. But each couple of patches, his strength started to show, with him getting a new relic set and characters like Sparkle, Robin, Aventurine/ HuoHuo and now Sunday each elevating him to a new height of strength, to the point where him, as a 1.0 DPS, is considered one of the strongest characters in the game. Trust me, I completely understand the problem with how these characters are constantly coming out with insane kits. One of my biggest issues is the fact that targetting weaknesses, a mechanic that has been here since day 1, is now getting completely warped due to characters simply ignoring the weakness or forcing weakness implant. Ironic, considering Boothill is one of my favorite DPS, I know. But again, characters like Seele or Jing Yuan are getting resurgences thanks to some of these newer supports. Like I said, this is a game of investment, people are still clearing with DoT teams which are almost a year old with no real support just yet, and PF makes it so that characters who may have seen relatively weaker, biggest examples being Himeko and Herta, are absolute monsters without even needing a crazy set-up, just as long as their builds are in order you're set. Sure, summoning on a character that you may not have any real attachment to is unfortunate, I won't deny that. But I feel that if there is a character you enjoy, you would want to bolster their strength and usefulness as much as possible, right? That's why I went for Sunday, because he makes my Jing Yuan and DHIL stronger, and helps them stay competitive along with me improving my builds.
genshin scaled so much since natlan came out tulpa boss was in abyss not long ago with 2 mil hp now it has 3.6 mil but comparing both games really doesn't work due to how they are played elemental reactions vs all the different archetypes in hsr doesn't make sense to compare them since it doesn't translate 1 to 1
Yeah, HP increase doesn't affect Genshin as much as HSR since in Genshin you have several ways to amplify your damage through reactions and smart play while in HSR the only two ways to do more damage is by getting better Relics (Which completely depends on RNG) or getting new characters, and even those two methods have a hard limit on how far you can go.
Something they could do is have dmg type immunities like say Kafka (boss) would be immune to lightning since she does lightning dmg but de buffs like defense down or stuff like that gives them the ability to dmg them
I think the power increase is notable however, I just don't feel it's as bad as people make it out to be for a lot of units. I've been using Clara to 3 star MoC and PF since I got her which was around 2.1 iirc (I started like a day before 2.0). This includes outright brute forcing MoC 12 floors with no physical weakness. Despite being a 1.0 standard banner unit, she's kept up her performance based on me actually investing in her relics, supports (Sparkle, then Robin on her rerun), and upgrades like Yunli's light cone. Old units benefit from new supports as well. I think a bigger part of the powercreep aspect is older units who are lacking synergistic supports- Jingliu, Blade for instance. If you look at what happened to Jing Yuan, being completely T2 on Prydwen then jumping several tiers immediately on Sunday's release should be a good indicator that old units can be good and viable- they just need the same synergistic teams that new units like Acheron, Firefly, and Feixiao have. Personally, I have Acheron but I really struggle with her. She doesn't have the same level of investments in her relics and supports that my Clara, Jing Yuan, or Ratio have. I don't have Jiaoqiu, my Pela's build is so-so, the other nihility option is between Black Swan or Guinaifen... in my circumstances, my e0s1 Acheron is not reliable. She could be, if I put in the work to make her so. She doesn't perform like a t0.5 DPS for me, but that's largely my own fault for neglecting her.
I agree with this but I’d like to add one thing Hsr characters NEED to do a lot to be usable, they need to do a hella ton of DMG to be clear the content, they need to have multiple buffs to actually bring more value to the dps, they need to have a lot of healing etc. Compared to genshin, they don’t have to do all that, they are easy to play/build, they’re usable. They bring more value out of the dps, let’s use them. An example is Natlan characters with the hero set, even characters that offer nothing whatsoever in their kit like kachina can be a very solid character with the four piece hero of the cinder city set. And that’s how niche character stayed at least usable in genshin, they do something, there’s a way for them to be usable. And with newer characters, old characters can still remain if they offer something.
@@justlumien Not just because of hp but if a newer lightning dps stayed around, say Acheron dmg output, what reason would there be to ever pull on them? People who pull for liking the character or other non meta reasons are excluded from this. Acheron does the job just fine so why even bother getting something new when what you have does the job just fine. Once your account has at least a dps of every element and some aoe units, why ever pull for new dps when all your old units do just as a great as the new element dps? The boss' hp wouldn't be improving much since everyone would stay around the same dps lvl. In Genshin, I would've not pulled for Clorinde or Cyno since my C2 Raiden was way stronger than them and only pulled them because of liking their character. So far in Hsr, I haven't been affected by this as I'm still filling out team archetypes and not just new dpses.
@@jordanslaughter9797 in genshin many people still pull for new dps characters regardless if they are meta or not, i know so many ppl who have c1 neuvi and still pulled for mualani, kinich, and chasca even tho they didn't powercreep neuvi they still pulled the characters for other reasons like wanting more characters, finding their kit/mechanic fun, or they simply like them. in HSR however many ppl find it hard to justify pulling a new dps even tho they really like them if they don't compete or outright powercreep older dps. which is honestly just sad cause genshin were still able to sell newer characters without having to powercreep the older ones, while in HSR they have to give this new character a gamebreaking kit mulltiplier or else it won't sell and the cycle continues.
inb4 5.0 Units Buffer: Grants any character Seeles Resurgence and at e2 this can trigger indefinetely when conditions are met. while they have resurgence they gain 50% allrespen and ignore 80% of opponents DEF Dps: Upon casting ultimate immediatly breaks the targets weakness and deals break dmg equal to 2500% of the units fire break dmg. This ignores weakness types and weakness protection Debuffer: they finally caught up with 2.7 harmonies Sustain: grant immortality field to 1 character. the target character cannot be defeated except by certain abilities i see another problem all jokes aside idk why hoyo keeps sidelining nihilities like they are some kind of 2nd grade support the balance would be better if buffers werent giving 50 different buff while nihilities were scrounging to get 1-2. ofc harmonies are bloated to all hell if they are treated like the only dmg amp support class
The "preservation" character of 5.x Talent:When allies are hit, deals dmg equal to 250 percent of (x character) DEF percentage,if it's an aoe hit,triples the damage dealt. After using this, all allies gain a 35 percent def ignorance for 3 turns. Skill:Applies "? " to all allies.Allies that have "?" has their HP increased by 160 percent and they take 35 percent less dmg. When an ally with "? " gets hit,recovers 7 percent of their max HP+120 percent (x character)'s DEF percent,and increases the RES PEN by 10 percent for 5 turns,max 5 stacks. Ultimate(110 cost btw) :Advances the all team by 100 percent and makes them immune to any type of crowd controls, lasting for 5 turns. Additionally, (x character) deals a coordinated attack equal to 85 percent of her def for every hit made by allies. Traces:Increases the team's DEF percentage by 70 percent.When an ally falls down, (x character) revives them equal to 200 percent of their DEF. This can trigger up to 2 times each battle. Every time (x character) triggers her talent or takes action, recover 5 percent of the max HP of all allies and recovers 5 percent of the allies max energy. This can be triggered a maximum amount of 3 per turn. (x character) increases the allies CRIT rate and CRIT dmg based off their DEF percentage, a maximum amount of 50 CRIT rate and 100 CRIT dmg can be obtained this way. Yea this seems undercooked maybe, but seriously this is getting out of normal
I dont play Genshin anymore, so I must ask: Is Bennett/Xiangling/Xingqiu teams still a thing nowdays? Because if so, you cant use them as metric to talk about powercreep. The are literally doing more than 5* units for a loooooooong time, and probably will continue to do so. Their kits, while simple, was god damn effective that even overshadowed shinier units, which is good for F2P, but "bad" for a gacha system that thrives on making new units get the spotlight.
Yep, Bennet is still the only and best ATK Buffer (Even though this is not so valuable anymore since we have a lot of characters that scale in other stats like DEF or HP), Xiangling still is the beat Off-Field Pyro DPS (But Mavuika will probably change that), Xingqiu technically was powercrept by Yelan in damage but he still has more hydro aplication and sustain than her.
completely agreed. Which makes it WILD that Sparkle is actually relatively well-balanced in the grand scheme of things. Yes she gives a little bit more damage buffing and SP regeneration, BUT she also *only action advances by 50% instead of 100%.* They gave her something extra, and then took away a bit from a different part of her kit, to make her a sidegrade to Bronya, not a direct Bronya pro max+++. And then Sunday comes waltzing in with even more buffing than Sparkle while ALSO having 100% action advance. Like... What the HELL are you doing Hoyo? Same with Aventurine, why does he give extra crit DMG to anyone attacking the enemy he used his Ult on? Seriously, there was NO need for that in his kit! From what we know about Fugue's kit, she seems like a generally decently balanced premium replacement for Harmony MC. Superbreak activation is NOT locked behind using Ultimate, gives some Break Effect buffs and allows for Def shred... which is pretty ok because she's Nihility. She's *meant* to debuff enemies. That's par for the course, and she seems balanced alrightly. But then I heard through the grapevine that one of her eidolons gives a full ***s5 Dance Dance Dance action advance on ult usage*** and... Hoyo, why?
The thing is, the strength of these characters shouldn't influence the HP pool until these units with inflated numbers out number characters that don't. Me pulling firefly in the height of her meta did not stop me from clearing MoC 12 with my DoT team+ Argenti in team 2. Nor did it stop me from replaying it with her
7:35 "Create problem, sell the solution." Not only is this an effective way to incetivize players to spend money (I am not calling it "good", but "effective" from a business standpoint), MHY has been doing this since even before Genshin was released. They're not even the only dev doing that, but this is about MHY. Anyway, I'm not at all surprised that this is how Hoyo handles HSR powercreep. As an RPG, the most important factor in the end are hard numbers. MHY has never stricken me as particularly skilled at handling RPGs so the fact the dev team defaulted to numbercreep as the go-to way to advance the game seemed like an obvious thing that was bound to happen eventually. There's only so many ways you can use a certain number of mechanics with equivalent numbers before the solution to variety is to create whole new mechanics, slap several mechanics together in one character or raise the numbers on old mechanics; sometimes they reuse mechanics while removing some limitations they had as well. Now, there are certainly examples accross the board of gacha games about how powercreep is handled; but powercreep in a gacha game is effectively inevitable. Even when it doesn't seem to impact as much, the fact is its still there. To use an example I've seen cited somewhat recently: FGO, despite its infamous reputation as an old and predatory game, has had a relatively elegant solution to powercreep. First off, it exists. Anyone telling you otherwise is BSing you. Secondly, while it exists across all levels of play, from DPS to supports, which kind of powercreep matters most is very, very different. Supports are KING: as long as you have the best supports possible for a given category, you can make a lot of units work for you because the vast majority of the game is about farming and the best supports are also mostly the ones that enable the best farming methods. Similarly, with those supports in hand, there are a number of "omnifarmers" that can do most of the farming on their own for you. The F2P income is poor as hell, but if you spend smart you can certainly get away with being F2P in FGO for an extremely long time. So long, in fact, that HSR could go through five years of powercreep and you could probably still use the same 5 or so units in FGO and keep cruising through the game because, unlike HSR, most of the challenging content in FGO is *entirely optional* often with minuscule rewards...which is the flipside of the coin. In RPGs, the challenge is often about complicated mechanics or high numbers, often both together. HSR decides to make this part of the reward system in MoC/PF/AS (not so much in SU modes where the rewards are negligible), while FGO makes the challenge itself the point. In FGO it makes for a game that's very much about clearing with the characters you like *usually* (because devs will sometimes still fall into annoying design pitfalls that make clearing with your preferred characters much harder or even impossible compared to other options), but also incredibly easy to drop because you have to actively make yourself care about sticking with it, whereas Hoyo's games (including HSR) excel at giving things for the player to do; if not care about, at least it encourages the player to keep coming back. I don't particularly like the powercreep problem, but I've been living with it for so long due to playing HI3 since before Genshin came out that it's just a fact of life for me. This is pretty much Hoyo' s101 and I don't foresee it changing, not when Hoyo is effectively an unkillable giant at this point. In the end, the players vote with their wallets, and as long as people open their wallets to Hoyo while they use these design choices, the trajectories of these games will not change where game balance is concerned.
i'm a relatively new player and my friend plays from day 1. i'm donating a little bit, so i got the newest charas and a couple eidolons, but my friend is ftp and is stuck with blade. i'm closing all the content at all stars easily, friend struggles. it's very sad bc i wand to roll blade too when he reruns... will he even rerun though now that he's negative meta? 😭 just hoping that the old cute charas will get jingyuan treatment and become meta again with the new supports (the hope is very low tho). nice monetary strategy i guess, but i really wish they invested more time into plot instead
5:54 I think you are just wrong They are definitely factoring the relic set. They design the relic sets around the character kits Hoyoverse and more specifically the HSR team want that result. The only way "hoyoverse doesn't factor in relic sets" would make sense as a statement is if Sunday's BiS relics came out way before Sunday and isn't obviously made for him. Personally I don't think its even an issue for these newer characters being made as good as they have. HSR and Genshin are fundamentally different games Genshin is an exploration game with a lot more freedom with their combat HSR is a turn based game and is a lot easier to master the base mechanics of the game leading to the only real way of improving your account lies in new characters which just do more than the last Powercreep isn't even fast, Genshin's powercreep is just slow. Basically non-existent (which leads to their own issues) Despite the HP increase, even with 1.0 character, you can still clear MoC 12 within 10 cycles assuming you have decent relics, on element and use good supports Also telling players to pay up is a bit disingenuous You don't need to spawn for every character and every patch you get a lot of gems and tickets to spawn for new units
Basically every update cycles: 1. Stronger new character 2. The new character shred everything 3. The enemies is "stronger" So the new character doesn't shred as much 4. New even stronger character 5. Repeat the 2. And it will keep going. This is a REAL problem. In the future, the new dps will casually deal 3 million damage to deal 28% in MoC. The problem is that mihoyo's target on the new character is the powers. They're not priotizing on implementing unique character mechanic. It's just like, "this unit is strong, just use it!" Instead of "this unit is strong IF [blablabla] and also this unit only using it's full potential if [blablavla] but [blablabla] which is hard to use, but reward you for a great strength if used correctly" They just don't! The new unit are just free dps spike and they're even THAT easy to use
One of the biggest problems is that people can't tell the difference between powercreep and meta. Firefly is OP, right? What if I tell you that HYV put puppet trio in (LITERALLY) every other MoC since her release? That's called the meta, not powercreep. Firefly loses a lot of performance each time puppet trio isn't in MoC, from 0-1 cycles to 3-4 cycles. HYV keeps putting wind-weak enemies for Feixiao, keeps putting fire-weak enemies for Lingsha (which is one of the reasons why she's so much better than Gallagher right now), etc. Feixiao isn't necessarily better than Firefly and Firefly isn't necessarily better than Acheron. The exact lineup dictates what's better and thus meta, but the meta always change. HYV just happens to heavily favor the recently released characters. Dendro also was heavily favored in Genshin the whole 3.X era, and it fell off a bit since 4.X started, not even a need for new DPS units to come out for that to happen. Nilou was perceived as being insanely good in any AoE lineup and now she's barely viable since 4.X, not even a joke. Note I'm not arguing there isn't powercreep, like obviously 1.X units got powercrept. But sometimes it's also way overblown because people can't tell the difference between powercreep and meta.
Few points, warning long paragraph ahead Before everything,powercreep is responsible for HP inflation but only partially First,HSR is a turn based game which means its a numbers game,no matter how you diversify the way a unit is played,all that matters is the dmg they dealt/their support capability/sustainably. And for those who wants to bring up FGO because every time smthg is up with HSR gameplay its always compared with FGO; FGO is not a "combat game",its a purely a collector's game, there is barely a meta to pull for, no end game content and 99% of units are just sidegrades with extra gimmick means FGO is closer to a collection showcase than a live service game, ppl roll in FGO not bc meta,but bc there is no meta so they roll for whatever 2nd, For the relics compared to Genshin,i dont personally play the game but i heard a lot that Genshin signature relics are so much more impactful than HSR's signature relic sets,upwards of 20-30% compare to HSR's 5-10%. And because of that,a unit power budget is more in themselves than into relics. 3rd, back to HSR being a numbers game,that just it,there is a theoretical "optimal" way to play and build everything and thus the only thing matters is the unit's numbers. Unlike Genshin where numbers can partially be covered up by skill/experience. Additionally, because HSR only focus on combat,niche things like map exploration units dont have a role in the game so all that matters is how they performs in MoC/PF/Apoc 5th, to reiterate on "Powercreep only partially responsible for HP inflation", Hoyo is increase HP is also bc they been adding bosses that requires players interaction. Like players cant just brainlessly hit the boss and expect to kill it, now you'll have to pay attention to its mechanics and (sorrry if this scares you) READ the boss mechanics(like how in 3.0 a new boss with 9.8m total HP but it have 4 summons when it acts that deals 600k dmg to the boss when killed with each only have like 100-200k HP). Also this may sound absurd, but players arent expected to full clear end game contents, they are called "End Game contents" for a reason, only those who heavily invested their time to their units should be those who clear those contents and not your half assed build unit from 1.x clearing 2.x contents. To compare to FGO,its like the Super Recollections quest or 90++, only the top percent of accounts can clear those and get the extra rewards that is more like a bonus(like the different between 36 and 35 Stars in MoC is like 80 jades,thats like 1 extra day you have to log into the game) Last,on the topic of power creep,its barely real, you say your Jingliu or Blade or Seele can barely clear MoC 12,but i ask you this,is clearing means finish in 2-3 cycles or do finish in 10 cycles cuz units from 1.x can still clears plenty fine as long as weakness are matched. Like "Help clearing" content isnt popular in EN community but in VN, its the most common form of content and people here have way worse accounts than most of you and the "Doctor" can still use those shitty garbage account to clear MoC/PF/AS. Which just means skill issue honestly Im not defending HSR, it can definitely be better but the things rn arent that significant to worth talking this much about. Like (sorry if this offends you or anyone reading) these type of "Problem with HSR" are just exaggerating problems that is barely significant to the actual point they are talking I have seen power creep and believe me its so much worse than HSR's,rn the game isnt bad and the power creep only became noticeable like a year or more after a unit is released which is plenty of time to use your favs and if you want to keep using them,pull for Eidolons on rerun banners, E2 DHIL still works fine these days and 2 eidolons is about the same cost as a new E0S1 unit
The whole idea of these kind of discussions honestly just come from how it feels to most players. Like, you don't need to be a genius theorycrafter to understand that seele and kafka dont clear end game modes as fast as they used to. Can you still clear? Yes. Should it take you a thousand times more effort to clear using those units over the newest toy hoyo is trying to sell? No. It feels like shit, so people(like me) talk about it. Change can only happen if people do that.
Not sure what you mean fgo isn't comparable when fgo has more technically challenging boss fights which don't boil down to do higher damage and have more turn to turn decision making, like if you don't use meta support every cq can become demanding of game mechanic knowledge, that's literally reason why fgo difficult boss fights are remembered not cuz of their visual bcz their mechanics like Cernunos, Ort, Goetia, gawain etc. Like one of my favorites cq is taiga quest from Gil fest and pretty much anyone who played that event know what I am talking about when that quest is very much centered around turn to turn decision making without having much of dps check requirement And again ok let's say fgo didn't exist we have R1999 for comparison which again makes it's content not be a damage check. Most of your gameplay revolves around picking right team based on enemy and merging and stacking right cards But ok let's take that out and we take a game known for powercreep like E7 for example. E7 have a very hard cap on how much damage units they can do like Dark corvus an year 2 unit is still most damaging unit in the game (and he is below average in most game modes except 1) so even it's powercreep doesn't come in form of lol enemy has more hp, now beat it in 10 turns. The powercreep in E7 mostly exist in form of kit creep where new units have more versatile or new mechanics entirely unique to them and in fact it's one game where doing damage more than a certain point is useless since you only need certain damage threshold for pvp content so any excess damage is pointless and most high hp PvE content like expedition and rift aren't stuff game even expect you to do in one try or alone but chip down in multiple attempts so you would rather have a consistent team
@@fl2uryou'd be surprise by how much ppl just play,ignore boss mechanics,couldnt clear to then complain about power creep. On matching weaknesses,1.x units can still comfortably clear current and future contents,just for example KafSwan can 1 cycle svarog with 0 eidolons and very relatable relics or how Jingliu can 4 cycles the new dinosaur boss My point is people dont play the game and then proceed to complain,issues exist yes but in it current state it barely matters and exaggerating these issues also dont help Also, harsh truth,game devs like Hoyo could not give less of a fuck about EN community,only CN opinions matters to them and is the only thing that can be used to be push for changes
@@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584 1st,FGO end game content is like 1% if not less of the game's playtime. There is no meta units,you get Castoria and you basically cleared everything in the game,maybe Oberon if you want to do 90++ or doing min turn CQs. Every unit in FGO is viable bc in the contents that they dont,they'll be hard carried by Castoria anyways and so no point in power creep when there is no challenge and everything are just sidegrades and FGO is effectively a collector's showcase game I cant talk for r1999 or e7 but does those game have skill expression?Like some timing elements or stuff or just absurd level of knowledge check or controlling rng or smthg of the same degree? Cuz technically you can just play HSR on an excel sheet cuz HSR is effectively pokemon but you only fight AI. HSR have little to none skill expression if you just do the thing the game said but a lot dont,they fail and complain
@@hoangnguyen0721 E7 is a pvp focused game so naturally it's live game mode revolves around team building (it basically goes like you select certain amount of unit, then your opponent gets to select certain amount of unit by guessing what kind of team your are trying to build), try to ban each other's problematic units and then engage in live combat. Some of it's game mode like draft arena literally just gives you semi-random fully geared teams (regardless if you have those units or not) and you can play pvp like a random pokemon showdown battle where for most part it's your decision making that matters.
It's stuff like this that makes me scared to pull in hsr. I'm F2p which means that every pull i earn is valuable and i a can't afford to waste at alk so when i see someone like Firecky who i like i think she's a good dps but wity Remembrance coming out i keep having the thoughy of another Dot situation happening
Best way to do it imo is to determine why you're playing. If you care about the characters/story/etc, then just go for who you like - while yeah you might struggle in end game, at least you're using someone you care about. If clearing [end game] content is important to you, then getting some of the newer units is definitely the better option.
GI established itself in the right time and space and still has a pretty solid foundation to date due to the lack of direct competition in the open world ARPG space, especially for mobile. HSR and ZZZ to me are like the poor siblings of GI who are forced by their parents to perform just as well if not outshining GI with way lesser time (hopefully not resources as well) and worst of all, competing in highly saturated spaces in their respective genres. That's why both HSR and ZZZ feel more explicitly of the games trying to make players spend. That being said, powercreeping will never be softened in a gacha game. Gachas are unlike conventional games, that's why we don't see regular balancing of the older stuff against the new. Regular balancing would be counterintuitive towards the very thing they are trying to sell, new characters and weapons. Not to staunch F2Ps, but to potential spenders and whales. Even GI has also made the pressure to pull felt explicitly with Natlan. Sure, you can still choose not to pull for any Natlan members. The first difference immediately felt was the hassle of finding the right saurian in the wrong place to navigate extreme terrains. Then take a team of older characters, namely Inazuma and prior, to pick fights with the open world wayobs or legends and you'll experience a whole tougher and longer fight compared with the experience of having Natlan characters in the mix.
Character's kits getting bloated over time reminds me of FGO where over the years a newer character's single skill, without exaggeration, contains more efects than an early character's entire kit. The difference is that in FGO characters recieve skill buffs that can completely revamp them, upgrading the already existing effects and adding several new ones, which on many occasions made older characters relevant again and letting them shine in new ways. This is depressing because so far, except from that one extreme case with a certain dude called John Lee, mihoyo haven't done anything like that and are probably never planning to.
I miss using my Jingliu and Blade :( let’s hope they will do something about this. Also this would make reruns profitable for them as well. There’s will be no point in pulling reruns at some point. Sad they put in all this money to make a lovable character only to sell it once or twice.
Personally I don't care that units get power crept in gachas. I think most people even expect it. However, I don't think they should balance enemies around said unit power creep. The whale who's one cycling today is still one cycling tomorrow with whatever comes next. However, likewise the f2p who went ham on a top tier unit one cycling today should still be doing similar tomorrow. They shouldn't suddenly need 3x the damage just because some shiny unit came out 6 months later that does 3x more damage. Whales simply don't need the excuse to pull more units if the kit and character design are interesting. However, low spenders and f2p will simply start playing something else that values their time more. Suddenly not being able to clear your endgame efficiently because Mihoyo' is balancing their stuff around more and more broken units is just going to make you feel like all the time you invested in a once great team was wasted. Making broken units is not an issue, balancing around broken units is.
Honestly, my biggest worry going forward (as someone nearing Penacony) is if I'll be able to actually progress past that point. I've heard from friends how that part of the game is the account vibe check which bodes ill for me considering that I only have a few 5 stars to call upon. Its kinda why I dislike this whole limited banner thing the game has, because it feels like a waste to summon constantly for duplicate characters when there are potentially even better options around the corner like Acheron or Adventurine. I'd like it if they had several 5stars per banner outside of the base game roster of 5 atars, because it'd make pulling more meaningful in my opinion. Plus, again, it sucks having to wait several months for reruns because gems aren't exactly cheap for F2P accounts like mine
I’m not convinced that HSR has a “bloated kits problem” Lets compare the lasted HSR character to a 1.0 HSR character, Bronya DMG% buff: Both Bronya and Sunday has it but Sunday last 1 turn longer SP neutral: Both Sunday and Bronya has it if Bronya is E1 Crit dmg buff: Both Bronya and Sunday has it but Bronya can buff the whole team instead of only 1 person Cleanse: Both Bronya and Sunday has it 100% action advance to 1 unit: Both Bronya and Sunday has it Energy charge: Exclusive to Sunday Crit rate buff: Exclusive to Sunday ATK buff: Exclusive to Bronya Can advance and buff summons: exclusive to Sunday Can self advance and can advance other harmony: Exclusive to Bronya Teamwide DEF and dmg buff: Exclusive to Bronya As you can see, both of them has a lot of similar ability and Bronya has an almost equal amount of exclusive abilities that Sunday does, you can argue that Sunday’s ability is more potent but if Sunday’s kit is bloated, so would be Bronya, a 1.0 character.
i feel like the video is starting from an anecdotal bias. on the point from genshin, the current abyss cycles haven't really been that hard since they soft reset the difficulty for 5.0. the end patch 4.x and 3.x abyss cycles were notoriously brutal/unforgiving for non-whale characters with non-meta characters. you can look back and find many people complaining about wenut abyss, consecrated beasts, etc. i would say the difference is those fights were either burst-heavy with short windows which highly favored burst dps (wenut) or just really mechanically involved fights that needed sustain or good dodging (consecrated) on top of high overall dps. hsr has gone in different route with hp inflated bosses that have some vulnerability phase like with new apoc/moc clock boss but the hp is still a little too inflated and the mechanics to access the vulnerability phases are often too hard to do outside of specific teams
Yeah so I feel that is personal preference. I stopped playing genshin because of the fact that my old characters kept clearing end game. I had no motivation to pull new characters and it got boring. Like oh neat, I guess I could pull and level up someone all over again. But why would I when I beat everything anyways? Some people like that I guess. I didn't. Story, aesthetics and gameplay styles are factors yes, but that only goes so far. At least with star rail they show stronger characters which is good incentive. In addition, older characters can still beat end game (serval literally beats aps this month), but it takes work and smart investments. It was brain dead easy in genshin, but here I gotta use my brain. I don't spend a dime, and my clara or kafka team clears end game. It ain't easy, and I like that. So idk, if people want seele to be as relevant as feixiao, idk what to tell them. I'd probably find the game boring if that were the case, but that's just me
I stopped watching 4 mins in, so pardon me if you do end up addressing it but wanted to comment while the thoughts fresh in my mind. When people purchase a character theirs several factors that go into consideration of getting that character and different people will weigh these factors on different levels of scale - those factors are 1) Appearance - Do they like the design or animations associated with the characters kit 2) Personality/Story relevance - Do they play a major role in the story or at least play a role that is enjoyable to see when they are on screen 3)Waifu/Husbando/ship baiting - Is the character for (You) or is the character part of a ship you endorse and you want to collect the pairing/collect the character because of the good feelings you have towards them 4) Gameplay. How strong or fun is the character to use (Theoretically you could design someone weak but who is just really fun to play). Excluding collectors that just roll for everyone, Genshin has a significant advantage when it comes to players who weigh #4 more heavily. While I agree that HSR characters do a lot, I think they *need* to do a lot due to the nature of it being a turn based game their kits would otherwise be uninteresting as 1.0 characters already explored the fundamental mechanics that HSR has. The game is already pretty simple, at least having abundant design of their kits makes them *feel* more fun and complex to use (or at least complexity by the standards of a gacha game). I guess what i'm trying to build to is that Genshin benefits strongly from being a real time exploration game with some simple action combat. Chasca's motorcycle is *Fun* walking around with your character in Genshin is in of itself fun gameplay. So, Genshin doesn't need to power creep to sell and can do novel things like flying around in combat to make your character *feel* interesting and fun to play. HSR gameplay is turn based, kit-creep is a necessity to making these characters feel more fun and *feel* more rewarding to use (setting up a triple turn in a row with Rappa feels great!). More importantly, this kit-creep is enabling more complex and interesting boss designs like the tv monkey friends as we are able to roll for tools to face them. The raw numbers power creep (Fei/Acheron vs Seele) is unfortunate, I do think that older characters deserve to get an 'A8' trace that would either buff their raw number %'s or provide them with another new mechanic to match the kit-creep of new ones. But i personally endorse the kit-complexity increases and number of things every character is doing because having more complex kits will allow them to design more complex and fun enemies to fight. Heck, Sunday not only power creeps but outright kit-creeps Bronya in a variety of ways but one of the most fun team comps with sunday is to use him with Bronya and Jin yuan so you can give Jin a bajillion turns (Jin Yuan goes->Sunday makes Jin go->Bronya makes sunday go->sunday makes jin go again). Basically, I think you pointing out kit-creep as something bad is incorrect. In fact I hope the characters only get *more* complex as time goes on. The only thing thats bad about kit-creep is older characters with more simplistic kits not having the raw numbers to participate in end game, I don't think an older character *Deserves* to 3 star end game, but they do deserve to be able to clear it if built with proper relics and im noticing that people with older characters are struggling to clear and that's just wrong. A8 traces or raw number buffs are deserved so that they can continue to clear. Ok, now that i got my thoughts organized i'll finish the video lmao. Edit: Ok now that i've finished it, something else I wanted to to touch on is how you mention that the discussion is being centered around HP inflation. That's because one of the solutions to power-creep is to just cap how high hp goes so that people can continue to clear no problem. The issue with this solution that you don't touch on (because the premise of your video is against kit-creep) is that new powerful characters will clear to easily - in fact the current meta characters can clear really easily, that means that Hoyo has to give up on one of the four pillars for character rolling - gameplay. HP Inflation allows more complex boss mechanics because we are then able to face the boss for a longer period of time instead of 0-1 cycling them. Your proposed solution of capping power where it's currently at has the same problem, it ties the proverbial arm of Hoyo behind its back because it limits the complexity of foes that Hoyo can design lest enemy kits be to strong for us to face. I think the real issue and the reason that people are upset is two fold 1) 0-1 cycling is a standard for many 2) People are used to receiving the rewards for 3 starring end game modes like MOC I think that as a community #1 should be broken, that 3 starring should be the gold standard not 0-1 cycling. This means we can have more engaging and fun fights for our characters to be in. As for people being used to receiving the rewards of 3 starring end game, I think that Hoyo should either increase rewards via adding a MOC 13/14, a PF5, etc and lowering the gameplay difficulty of the existing levels or increase rewards by having MOC 10/PF 3/Apoc Shadow 3 provide the same amount of rewards that MOC12/PF4/Apoc Shadow 4 has been providing and for MOC12/others to give new rewards - maybe self modeling resign or other chase items - or yes even Jades if Hoyo doesn't want to be stingy about giving us an extra few hundred jades per end game rotation. I mentioned that people are not entitled to 3 starring end game, but they should be entitled to receiving the rewards that Hoyo has built an expectation of receiving with their current level of investment. So, yea. It's a weird thing to me that Hoyo has allowed this betrayal of expectations via rewards to upset the community. It's not their fault that people like 0 cycling but it is their fault that people are not getting what they're used to.
I fully agree with you that some of the older characters need an extra trace or buff to keep them relevant, actually have a video discussing buffs on my channel. I also agree that kit bloat isn't *inherently* bad, but I have to say that how hoyo is doing it is. Like, Sunday giving 20cr on whoever he skills is just unnecessary. There's nothing creative about "bronyas skill but better". If his kit instead was "choose between CD boost or CR boost when you use skill", then the same bloated kit is there, but now there's variety in how you play the character.
@@fl2ur I never claimed Kit-creep is currently more creative on the player side, just that it feels more fun and rewarding to play with. It feels nice that Sunday is providing that crit rate which creatively speaking was designed sadly with his E6 in mind to stack multiple times and give excess crit rate as crit damage. If you have an E6 Sunday that talent does feel more fun and becomes more player-facing creativity instead of just design creativity. I wish it was designed as his E1 (tbh i wish it was designed as his one of his A trace's because i don't like the concept of eidolons very much exactly because of something like how they designed Sundays talent to sync with a freaking E6). I know I just said that Kit-creep isn't necessarily creative on player side but *technically* Sundays talent is creative player side (going for stacks vs. who to action advance in a duel carry line up)....but yea needs an E6 which ew..... I guess i'm trying to say that Sundays crit rate talent isn't an example of bad kit bloat, rather its an example of bad eidolon design, if instead of one of his A traces being the min energy regen of 40, put that on the ultimate itself and make the trace current E6 it'd be rather good talent design (though perhaps 7-10% per stack so that he's not giving 60% crit rate at E0). Then i'd make his E6 turn it to 20% per stack (aka the current E6, increasing kit creativity to be player-facing without significantly downgrading his power) That said, i do hope kit-creep reaches a point where there is more player centric creativity in how to use the kit rather than just the kit itself being more complex (again with the premise that more complex kit = more fun because it allows for better enemy design and more engaging gameplay even if that gameplay is currently in a non-creative state [All 2.X characters are more creative with their kit-creep than 1.X character, but that creativity currently isn't player side its just design side]).
But the lack of depth in char abilities is what makes genshin so boring it feels bad when ur max clearing with a team u invested in an year ago and it feeling like u hit a stagnation point and this would be even worse in a game like hsr where u cant cope with exploration
I think they have made a few (or many, perspective pending) mistakes with 2.X balance they are trying to correct by outscaling it with 3.X. This actually caused the HP inflation, because the game actually got dramatically easier to clear the endgame content from 2.1 -> 2.5, and only started to get harder with 2.6 and now 2.7. There was briefly a discussion that endgame HSR was too easy before the HP inflation kicked in - your friend and you would not have had this conversation two months ago because your HSR experience would have matched his Genshin one. But why did they make those mistakes in the first place? I think Hoyoverse wants supports to be what they are in HSR, not what they are in Genshin. Constantly having DPS be the main thing people pull results in different issues that Genshin consistently expressed, gameplay and monetarily. So they doubled down on making supports strong. This even paid out with Firefly\Ruan Mei combo, and Feixiao\Robin combo. The problem is, they went overboard, both because Bronya\Tingyun\Pela were already strong, and because they didn't know how support pulls would go after Genshin. There is a reason limited Harmony are devoid of sight in 1.X until 1.6. They tried to correct that with Acheron, but printed her E2 in fear so they could sell supports later. More Acheron-esque ideas probably await us without E2 corrections (spoiler: they definitely do), which helps control Honkai: Harmony Rail. Sustains are in a worse position secretly btw, because power creeping Aventurine is a terrifying prospect. HP inflation is one thing - the easiest power creep in the game is to release new units with 23,000 HP and make the enemies do 20k damage. That power creeps every single unit from 1.X and 2.X. And that's one of the few ways to power creep Aventurine. And he still has outs. So my guess is they will slowly work damage toward higher and higher marks, shield breaking\ignoring enemies, or start mass doing debuffs Aventurine can't resist. And we've seen this: they've already started on the debuffs he can't resist.
все началось со светлячка, разработчики будто были одержимы ею и хотели сделать свою вайфу как можно сильнее вопреки здравому смыслу. ахерон сделали настолько сильной только потому что легендарный для хойо во всех смыслах персонаж не мог быть слабее какой-то девочки. и вот теперь, пытаясь забалансить бардак созданный светлячком выпустили монстра вроде воскресенье.
You have to understand no one wants to pull for characters that are ass. If every character does the same thing or is on the same power level, people will complain. If powercreep happens, people will complain as well. I think the only issue is HSR should release power increases in smaller increments but having a gacha game with no powercreep is impossible because no one would want to pull for those characters. And just in general making kits that are creative while also maintaining their power level to be the same as everyone else’s is just extremely difficult to do. There’s a reason why Genshin chara kits are bland. It’s because the elemental reactions are more important than the character themselves. I’m fine with how HSR does things because I can still clear things with my DoT team or Jingliu/Himeko, etc but im still getting new, fun and creative kits with every new character. Fugue is someone I’m skipping even though I love her design because she’s quite frankly boring. Nothing special or unique about her kit & she doesn’t seem particularly strong either. So while yes I think powercreep and HP inflation definitely exists, I don’t think it’s a major issue as people make it out to be if you know and understand the mechanics of the game.
Using Genshin as an example of how not to power creep loses you some credibility. Genshin’s powercreep is not as noticeable but it’s there. Also, Genshin didn’t need to create stronger units because there’s limited opportunities to do actual combat with them 😅 HP inflation is overstated. Nobody is forced to max star anything or pull for anyone. We get enough pulls per patch to get a 5 star completely f2p, and if you’re spending your jades wisely, you’ll keep up with the meta. P.S don’t skip harmony units mmmkay 😂
8:25 there are no other reasons to pull for characters except strength. Never was and never will be. And dont say ' but genshin has a reason' no it f doesnt. Characters in genshin are just skins at this point and most hsr players wont touch this game with a ten-foot pole. Players of hsr and gi are different and games are different. Bigger power creep in hsr for now isnt a problem for those who get meta characters. Its only a problem for those who go 'meeemememe I wanna use my Blade e0s0, what do you mean he will dispatch them in 8 cycles? I want 0!' cant have both. You either have a progression in the game or you just stuck in the endless limbo of game stagnating and rotting out like genshin where old players leave non stop. Because REMEMBER, in genshin, old rusty chars being relevant comes with a cost of literally NO challenge and nothing changing in the game. When in hsr you get new modes/bosses/etc almost every other patch. Jenshin got ONE new mode in 5 years. Its that stupid.
![[2.6] The Godslayer Protocol Isn't What You're Expecting... Probably - A Honkai Star Rail Theory](/img/n.gif)
I feel like early in the game they had a good hand in the power budget with characters like Silver Wolf, Luocha, Blade, etc... They were strong characters but had limitations that left room for future characters to compete without having to break the power ceiling.
However, I don't know what changed when they released Ruam Mei and Acheron but whatever it was made them throw any notion of balance out the window.
It was from then on that every new support had to have the equivalent of 3 different characters in their kit and every DPS had to be able to do twice the damage of the previous one with half the investment.
Yeah, 100% agreed. Maybe it's because ruan sold so well that they were like "well I guess this is what the playerbase is okay with", but it still is unfortunate either way.
It was Ratio. A free character that single-handedly obliterated 2.x. The game changed when that unit was given to players for free.
I would argue that the first case of serious powercreep came from DHIL. He was a bigger power leap comparatively at launch than than Ruan Mei was when she released. It was the first time we saw a character easily doing multiple hundreds of thousands of damage. She was very good at the time, but her value was nowhere near what it has become over time. For example basically all the break related parts of her kit were mostly just for some extra survivability rather than being an entire extra window of damage for superbreak teams like it is now.
Also I'd like to add the main reason I mention DHIL is because powercreep was not even in the cards for discussion until his release. At that point people started to talk about how he was very powerful, and they were worried that this would start a trend of insane powercreep.
@@Sakamoto_1535E3 Ratio was and still is good, but what really pushed him above and beyond was Robin, when he came out he was interchangeable with DHIL depending on the fight.
Thank god you didn’t view SW falling off being due to Boothill,FF, and Feixiao, because with all due respect this is a dumb way of thinking yet it’s so common. SW literally did not fall off because of implant or even weakness ignore, that was never the reason, you could argue it took away some of her uniqueness but thats all. Reason is simply other supports do her main job better (make dps do more damage) whether those teams have a dps with weakness ignore/implant, or not, other supports basically fit like a glove in their best teams and have almost no issues.
SW was kinda doomed from the get go, the more dps and RESISTANCES (not weaknesses) you covered with other dps you pulled, the lower her value would be.
I think what makes difficultly feel more oppressive in HSR is that so many bosses and challenges are designed with two or three specific characters in mind. The moment you don’t have one, it’s incredibly hard to compensate because there’s no 4 star equivalent or team alt.
While Genshin does in fact make bosses and challenges that clearly lean in specific character promotions, you still make ten other teams to kill that boss. Even if you have the character designed for the challenge, you run their 4th best team and find success cause the other units still compensate for their premium counterparts in some shape or fashion. That new Monkey Boss without Rappa just kinda sucks to deal with. 😅
Too true. I swear you can’t beat Hoolay with Firefly’s break team
@@leeminhyung167 Hoolay only has 3 options to fight him with which is Yunli Firefly and Feixiao and two of those have team comps that require certain characters.
@@rdogg114don’t forget Boothill and Clara
I can't say I've had any issues with the Monkey boss and I don't have Rappa. Heck, for this AS I used Himeko/Herta and cleared.
I think part of this inflation comes from the fact that it seems they didn't really have fully fleshed out archetypes at the release of 1.0 and took it upon themselves to create distinct playstyles for 2.0. So characters who released during the 2.X series belong to these individual archetypes and feel so much stronger and due to have a playstyle that is actually supported by the game while others don't. And they need to inflate these HP values because once you assemble all the pieces of one of these teams, the amount of damage you can generate is insane compared to your 1.X DPS who don't seem to really have any homes. Individual power budgets wouldn't be so bad if older units were also given the same level of care and attention, but we all know that Hoyo rarely goes back and uplifts older units directly.
I definitely agree with this. Like in seele's case, there's no team that can be built around an "extra turn on kill" because it's so 1 dimensional - she kills, or she doesn't. All you can do for her is buff damage and literally nothing else. Compare that to the recent fua characters where they are all synergistic with each other and it's a night and day difference.
@@fl2ur I agree as well and I have hope in the future that perhaps we'll see older units continue to get uplifted - take Topaz and JY for example, who struggled with meta relevance upon their release but with the synergistic teams shot to relevancy. Even Seele has hope of being 'redeemed' in the event a unit able to buff her damage to insane heights based off speed were to exist, as even at E0 she has a 25% speed increase in her kit, or a unit who buffs a character's damage based off having less hits, to make her ult possibly nuke harder.
The ONLY unit who I can still see struggling even with the addition of a dedicated support is Yanqing since SO much of his kit is reliant on him not taking damage AND his buffs only lasting 1 turn anyways. Even with insane supports like Sunday and Robin out there, he has so little to properly convert into damage that it's hard to imagine a balanced support existing that wouldn't make other units be TOO strong.
Interestingly it was a bit the opposite with Genshin when the 4* starter characters where overpowered and scaled up with any evolution of the game
I agree with this. Before Sunday I didnt even know what a good jy team would be (I dont have sparkle) and the same applies to my Blade and Jingliu that cannot use the same Support 2.x units use to even close to the similar effect unless you pull for supp eidelons. Sundays kit is so loaded and the AV on summon and cleanse fixes the major issue that was in JY Design that he is actually one of my favorite units now after being benched for a Year. Lmao. At this point we will have kit designs so bloated and fight enimies with an HP Pool of an aeon before we reach anything close to an aeon (like 6.0 endgame or smth). These 1.x units have so many random limitations and punishable Designs but so little room to actually reign the Benefit of it. Like Blade solo sustain, and the Hp drain on your Team with jingliu does also very little than force you to run a sustain on low invest.
Part of the issue is how quick they were to treat game mechanics like inconveniences. Weaknesses annoying? All type toughness damage (rip Silver Wolf). Energy annoying? Unique energy mechanics/innate ER mechs. Having your enemies attack too annoying? Advanced Forward. The only balancing route they left themselves is damage, unlike Genshin where they have elements and reactions.
This I definitely think is one of the problems, how they essentially disrespect and break, their own game mechanics. It's cool and novel and even a relief at first, but then in the long run it leaves you nothing to overcome.
Part of the fun is in figuring out how to work around the limitations set up with what you have, but then they just decided to hand you the solution on a silver platter.
I remember how in the beginning I wished I could bring one more character because I needed a certain element, but couldn't replace anyone on the team or else they'd either die or take forever to kill the enemy. Which led to wishing more characters would do more things. And that's the route they went.
I wonder what would've happened instead if we could've brought a team of five instead, but each character was limited to one or two things, and no character did the same two things.
Maybe some overlap, like say how Clara and Yunli both are physical destruction and counterattack, but then one of them lands bleed and the other deals extra break dmg or smthn instead. Or one counters when they're hit themselves (and has increased aggro working as a pseudo sustain like a tank/bruiser) and the other counters when others are hit.
Instead of ending up with, "X, but better."
Point is, they ran out of creativity in terms of gameplay and resorted to the laziest solutions possible by basically just removing their own limitations.
With summons we're now getting that fifth team member ON TOP of already bloated kits instead😮
I'm getting more and more convinced I should just quit the community and return to the true single player experience and just enjoy the game for the story and not worry about the characters, because everywhere this seems to be all people talk about and it's so very VERY depressing...😑
I agree, also the paths the characters follow have lost quite a bit of their uniqueness (aside of the Lightcones they have available) because many characters now seems to dip into different paths.
it's such a shame. I see why the developers are doing this they've dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of that easily, but damn it devs just try to, my e2 Acheron obliterates all the content with max points or low cycles. The inflation isn't working it just makes the other team archetypes unusable without having a wallet. PLEASE I JUST WANNA USE MY DOT TEAM AGAIN
You can,DoT is in the best spot its ever been since like forver
Viable in all 3 modes(comfortably 1 cycle Svarog,a DoT PF and DoT buff on AS)
@@hoangnguyen0721Can I get a contact for your copium dealer? That guy must have some good stuff. 😂
@@lazaruslong697he is objectively right though, all three game modes are in favor of dot right now with svarog having both electric and wind weakness, apoc first side having a dot buff, and the whole pf being dot related
@jp-dx6829 That may be true for the current instance of those modes, but what about the next? As soon as those buffs switch, DoT will most likely become as irrelevant and niche as it always has been. Not saying you can't use it, but boy, does it suck in comparison to anything else. You know, even a broken clock is right twice a day kind of situation...
@@lazaruslong697 Why does DOT have to be meta forever?
You can still clear with it being niche
Ruan Mei was their first true overtuned release, she has so many stuff in her kit you could almost swear you are reading seperate kits. but that aside, 2.x was the version of them pushing archetypes and selling teams instead of individual characters like 1.x which contributed to powercreep as it meant your character wasnt at it best without X and Y ( try playing Fei without Robin or Firefly without Ruan Mei ) while 1.x chars already dont have dedicated supports like Blade and JL
I noticed that ever since Robin and HMC released is when HP inflation became a thing, i genuinly believe that if it wasn't for both we wouldn't be in this situation right now. Robin is simply way too strong for this game's health as a singular unit, something even Ruan Mei before her didn't do. same thing for HMC despite being a free unit as with basically no investement you're outdamaging most crit DPS's with a average investement
On that topic, i feel like it's less units being overall ''overloaded'' and more so Harmonies specifically being overloaded, overbloated and overtuned all at once while doing things Nihilities really should be doing not them. Ruan Mei has so many stuff in her kit she might as well be 3 character kits at once ( why does a Harmony unit have res pen in her base kit as well as knockback after breaking ? thats the most nihility thing ive ever read ), Robin's 100% teamwide AA was always gonna be a problem and im surpised NO ONE saw it coming not mentioning the overtuned damage buffs and Sunday is a Bronya promax that feels more so overloaded than overtuned ( he still is overtuned ) but im positive my opinion will change as soon as we get summon DPSs, Sparkle is the only actually balanced Harmony as she sticks to her gimmick and look at her now losing to two characters not even supposed to buff her archetype due to how overtuned they are. on the other side we have JQ who might be the most balanced 2.x unit as he just.... makes enemies take more damage while doing small damage. Black Swan does DoT and amps damage by def shredding and vunlerability. what im trying to say is that Harmonies are always overtuned and doing way too much to the point where you never really need a 4star or a nihility unless you don't have them. ofc there are exception like Aven's shields being too strong while being easily refreshable or Feixiao having rainbow toughness ignore for seemingly no reason but these are'nt reasons that ''hurt'' the game compared to the teamwide buffers
I think 3.x is when they will try to ''fix'' powercreep if JY is any indication especially if you've seen the dreams, as it seems HP inflation is simply them overcorrecting for the mistake they've done with Robin and Superbreak. or of course they could just double down on it and drive HP inflation to the moon.
Speaking of HMC... Fuge is in doing the same niche, but even more overturned then HMC is. Like hoyo, was super break teams not strong enough already?
3.x....The character monetization(kit/meta wise) and endgame will either make the game for better, or ruin it completely.
3.0 livestream has a chance to be even greater than 2.7 if the devs listened and performs a mass rebalance. its a big patch after all.
@@pein4332 I hope so...
Acheron(the most hyped character of all time) rerun selling criminally low and hoyo getting no tga(hsr wasn't even nominated at anything for tga, that's underwhelming for a company like hoyo and the fact game is still not even 2 year old imo, whereas genshin still stands somehow)/way less rewards than usual this year awakens them a bit
And yeah, I REALLY hope they try to fix our dissatisfaction with Penacony(2.x) arc, they just need to want to fix it.
@@dreamsandhopes6802 in HSR your lifespan as a top dps is shorter than the time it takes for you to rerun, this happened to everyone. By the time acheron reran, Yunli, FF, Boothill and Fei were all either strictly better or situationally better at equal investment.
Basically just Break a already Broken game until it's *Unrecognizable* 💣
- Remove toughness/weakness is their first step
I think there's also one major factor that contributed to HSR'S imbalance, and that inherently as a turn basec game, it's very bare bones and simple. And thats not a bad thing per say, but then theres only so much you can do to increase the difficulty when all you have are three buttons to work with. You can have certain mechanics, yes, but at the end of fhe day increasing HP is really the only thing you can do to increass fhe difficulty. I think Aventurine is the only boss whose mechanics actually require a plan ahead, but honestly even that is easily countered.
Ive seen some people say that you dont need to full star the endgame, and yes you dont have to, but... HSR clearly cares about the combat, as seen by the stupidly overtuned new characters and the fact that we've got THREE endgame modes, not to mention the stimulated universe if you count that, when the game is barely 2 years old. It's not like Genshin where you actually dont need to fully star the endgame because you play that for the story and exploration, in HSR the combat actually matters (and frankly i just dont find the story that interesting tbh.).
I think the devs of HSR are focusing on the team archetypes, and not the actual characters. Genshin has characters that can solo *ahem WATER DRAGON* and the team buffs him. While in HSR, the META is to build a team around an idea. (Fua, Crit, Break, summon).
You aren’t gonna solo anything in hsr unless it’s e6s5 latest dps. In genshin there is much more skill expression and you can just not take damage, in hsr damage is inevitable
@@verse2702 agreed! Best bet would be adventurine or blade. But that's hyper investment! Genshin drops someone like that once in a while.
Hsr really, and I mean REALLY plays hard into the team game
@@verse2702yeah and some players play without shielders or healers and consider shielders dps loss
@@verse2702yeah I think that’s because one game is a completely different type of gameplay then the other, you aren’t soloing moc with one character because of the turn based nature of it while you can theoretically solo the abyss with one character if you are good enough or just have Mr water dragon and a max dpi mouse, genshin itself is more of a casual go around and explore vs starrails focus on endgame activities that all have different types of gameplay, yeah sure you might not be able to clear with 1.X dps but that’s kinda how most gacha’s are, is it bad? Yeah it’s not good that old units can’t be used to beat current endgame, but that’s just how it is sadly, if you are struggling with endgame with your old characters then you can also just save up for a new dps or support, yknow normal progression where you are not meant to only play with your old units, at some point they won’t be viable anymore. idk tho about how genshin is all I know is every friend I have seen play the game easily clears the abyss and it looks so boring.
Oh and older units such as jingyuan are now even stronger as their niche is getting more support, hypercarry such as seele aren’t as lucky tho but I don’t expect the first ever limited character to be that viable
Also one thing I dislike in hsr compared to other turn based games or turn based gacha games i played (fgo, e7, r1999 or magia) is that all of its major end game mode revolve around time/turn limit instead of actually clearing the content.
Like lets take moc, apoc or pf for example. Remove their turn limit and suddenly the game mode becomes extremely easy, just use a healer+shielder and become immortal. The real challenge is the timer and enemy hp and boss gimmicks more serve as an obstacle to your damage race. Thats why they have to rely a lot more on hp scaling enemy more or designing units that do more damage instead far more than any of these where they can go around introducing new gimmicks and units that counter those gimmicks
Also as someone who has played other turn based games, having a two button gameplay really feels like limiting the creativity of the kits in this game even though i would say they have done excellent job so far with this limitation
I actually have a video discussing the timed end game stuff being a problem! It's a few videos back called "HSR Needs new end game". Really, I feel adding more diversity to the end game would go a long way to making everything feel better.
I feel that first bit. I've taken breaks from genshin multiple times in the past and I have never felt that punished for it besides missing out on some events and pulls. Taking a break from HSR made me almost not want to try playing again after seeing how far behind I was.
I have massively caught up since then with some absurd luck, double robin in one ten pull then Feixao on my next pull, then recently I got Sunday, his lightcone, and Jingyuan all in about 150 pulls. Suddenly after somewhat building these new teams the endgame content is extremely easy, which goes to show just big the gap has become.
Yeah this was my experience too. I’ve taken several breaks in Genshin and it’s always easy and even refreshing to jump back into it. HSR on the other hand feels like I’m being punished for not playing. Everything feels tougher and I can’t even think of doing endgame modes anymore. Took several months but after getting Firefly, Robin, Sunday, Aventurine, Huohuo and Jing Yuan the game actually feels playable now and I’m having fun again.
Honestly if this keeps up, the next time I take a break might result in me dropping the game because good grief was it rough trying to catch up.
Honestly same. I frequently take breaks from Genshin and I always come back with nothing amiss except for events, meanwhile I dread having to take some time off HSR because I know it only gets harder with every patch. It sucks because I genuinely enjoy HSR but idk if I can keep playing like this.
I got that same luck on Robin and Feixiao and it ... the immediacy with which I went from feeling totally cooked to "this is so easy" was ridiculous.
I always felt universal break was a dumb mechanics but they proceed to double down and introduced guaranteed weakness implant and ability to shred weakness even faster like why.
It was okay when the universal break or implant was single target. If anything it would've been nice to only give it to Hunt characters, for balance.
Then they made Acheron and Firefly.
I feel like Universal break is a near-mandatory effect for Break-centered units. A non-break DPS/team can typically do 60-80% of their damage when fighting off-element content, a Break team fighting against off-element does like, 5-10% of their total damage at best, before accounting for resistances. If Hoyo wanted to make any break damage units mainstream, they needed some means to break enemies off-element. If not for implant/rainbow break, Rappa, Firefly, and Boothill would be completely irrelevant in any non-matched element fight, not just weaker like non-break units.
That said, I don't understand why Acheron and Feixiao needed universal break in their kits. I feel like non-break centered units don't really need universal break.
@@ruiyan6797 break units can break enemy much faster than average unit and that's already an incentive to go for them based since they shut down the boss gimmick.
I think Sunday boss is an example of that where him having very hard to break toughness should have prevented break units from excelling but it actually ends up then doing better since other teams aren't as good since they have to deal with his gimmicks multiple times or in case of apoc, just get the mode buffs faster
And another advantage of break is simply that you don't even need as much sustain. As someone who has boothill, it's very noticeable cuz not only does the dude has fastest shred in the game but his ult also delay enemy action for some reason so I can run him sustain less very reliably and I am someone who refuses to roll Ruan mei who could have further extended his ability to prevent enemy from taking action
@@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584 Yet performance-wise, they don't perform that much better than other team archetypes. They might have slightly more consistent sustainless clears and 0-cycles than other archetypes, but their performance isn't that much better when they are ON-element in optimised scenarios. It might be slightly comfier, but that doesn't matter that much when another archetype can often just kill a boss instead.
Sunday is also a boss that's almost tailor-made for break, since you can cut off a lot of his damage by consistently and repeatedly breaking all his adds. He is so tailor made for break that he's supposed to be the boss fight that sells you Harmony Trailblazer. It's hardly a fight that's designed to be difficult for break.
And the moment they go off element, without omni-break or weakness implant, they're fucked. Without the ability to break, you get walled by the simplest, single mook enemy in PF, or Story, or SU, or DU. (unless you have the break spreading blessings)
And a lot of omni-break also breaks at 50% toughness efficiency anyways. They're still subject to slower clears and damage type resistances even with their weakness implant and omni-break.
Honestly I think another issue with HP inflation and Unit design is that alot of 1.x characters were just poorly designed.
There is such a gap between 1.x characters that are relevant and the ones falling off design wise and how they can synergize with future kits. Like Jingliu pretty much capped at her release, sure we have gotten supports that make her better, but her kit is so airtight that there just isn't much you can do to actually buff her directly. Meanwhile Topaz has alot of flexibility in her kit and can be usable in a variety of ways especially with Sunday out. JingYuan has gotten buffed by Sunday aswell but alot of the pain points of his kit design still remain and he is bound to be replaced, from building stacks of LightingLord to Lighting Lord being pushed back if Jing Yuan gets CC'd there are just pain points to his kit that future units probably won't have.
Hell if I'm being honest DOTs biggest issue is probably Kafka, sure she's the machine to get the comp going but she's not a very good one because all she is a retrigger not an amplifier which is what DOT actually needs. Even in her skill it only allows dots to do 75% of their original damage, I personally think if Kafka was designed today, she would boost the dot damage instead.
Even for Mid characters like Jade who only specialize in PF, she has flexibility to her kit and any strong Erudition, mass AOE, or HP drain units in the future will allow her to stay relevant, and speaking of Blade has more future potential than alot of other 1.x units that used to be vastly superior to him. His biggest issue wasn't his kit but the lack of support for it which can be easily fixed in the future and fights like Hoolay show that he actually can scale pretty well with certain fight designs unlike a lot of other characters.
Its sad but alot of 1.x characters just weren't made well while alot of 2.x characters can easily stay relevant with the release of future characters or interesting fight mechanics.
Jing can't be CC'ed if he's paired with Sunday and Adventurine.
@@nessashawunless res is 100%, they all can :(
All my homies hate Cocolia
ive been playing hsr on and off since it launched, but only recently started to actively play it. And boy let me tell you, these new units are so strong that i dont even bother with the old ones. they make the early game zoom by QUICK
I think I see your point and I agree. Due to that newer characters are getting better, stronger, and more complicated, the developers are just responding and making the end game content much harder to make some kind of "balance." However, the only downside is that if that "balance" would make more players hate the game and ultimately leave, you know. So, it is a much harder to balance to satisfy players. I would admit that the MOC currently has enemies with ridiculous amount of HP, but I can clear most of it with three stars. Not a perfect score, but I also decently invested my characters. I also think that other problem is that a lot of players (not everybody) are just complaining because it is not the game's issue, but more of a "skill issue" on the player's side. I know that sounds redundant because making fun of a player's skill issue is like an old traditional meme or whatever, but it is kind of true for some people. If you cannot beat the bosses in the game without reading how they work or if you have like a relic set that doesn't quite work well with the team you are using, you will never defeat them or at least have a very hard time doing so.
This is an problem i usually call “the acheronification” of hsr, where they made her so broken that now everything has to compete with her, pushing the dps standard constantly higher and higher and then they need hp to compensate for it, the sad thing is many old units have very good designs on paper (jingliu, dhil, silver wolf, blade, kafka) but suffer from either lower multipliers because the standard of today is so much higher or are completely replaced due to direct powercreep of what they do (like silver wolf being phased out of the meta by dpses just implanting their own weaknesses or ignoring them)
The characters not being balanced around a relic set is a pretty interesting idea, it makes units that either a) dont have a perfect relic set, or b) get a new one much later when its already too late (ex: jingliu) suffer significantly more, not to mention how op new relic sets are, id really like them to go back and buff old units, wont happen but one can dream
I am just hoping 3.X tones it down a little bit, i feel like a lot of people now skipping acheron on her rerun is a wake up call
Id honestly argue it started with Ruan Mei before acheron, people just didn't realize it yet because she hadn't gotten to her full potential(superbreak) yet. Acheron definitely brought dps into the equation more, but it was already happening earlier imo.
@ yeah shes definitely a factor too, she set the bar very high for supports while acheron did that for dpses, even if her value didnt come out fully until break and ESPECIALLY when APOC came out, that mode can be miserable if you dont have her, acheron pretty much dominated the second she released which is why id attribute it more to her than to mei, but both are true, same way how we see characters like aventurine just dominate the entire sustain meta, setting a extremely high bar for sustains especially preservation and gallagher doing what seems to be setting a much higher expectation for four stars, at least imo he is
I agree will all that you said, except the SW part, her fall off was due to support powercreep essentially, not because breakers could ignore weakness or Feixiao, even just before break took over she wasn’t really great in any team and you would much rather play a harmony like Robin or RM or sparkle even. You could say her uniqueness was stripped away but its not because of implant on dps that she fell.
The main thing that SW helped in was attaching a -20% res to the enemy making it as if they actually had a weakness to that element, breakers don’t do that, they still lose 20% of their damage if the enemy isn’t weak to their element. So yeah it was because other supports are insane and have next to no issues that SW got phased out, her supportive capabilities, SP economy, and team variety just doesn’t match theirs at the end of day.
I'm so confused why people think that Acheron did anything when she was literally competitive with DHIL w/ Sparkle and Kafswan at release.. and they both were available BEFORE Acheron. It's not until the lineups favored Acheron more, or until JQ released that Acheron was truly better than them. Not to mention that the perception of her performance is flawed to begin with because most people assume she has her signature.
SW isn't being phased out by DPSes just implanting their weaknesses, she's just not good period. The only reason she was still meta was because she was competitive with Harmony units with Acheron, but now JQ exists and you can replace the second nihility even more easily thanks to JQ stacks gen. These DPSes existing or not wouldn't change anything.
I agree that it has gotten ridiculous, power creep is necessary but the fact that E1S1 jingliu is p much unusable right now is crazy. When Acheron came out they were both top tier, which means in less than a year she’s gone from clearing everything at E0S0 with ease to no data for MOC12
Ruan mei and Acheron really were the watershed moment, these 2 completely eclipsed their respective competitions and everything after that has just a one upping mess.
idk why but i started thinking about k'sante right when he done listing out all the stuff that sunday do
We need a Sunday version of that ASAP
I hope they would do some balance patches in hsr it could be great..
Giga cope. Balance patches will never happen in a hoyo game, however since HSR has shown some creativity I am willing to bet maybe sorta kinda could be a 0.1% chance they look at some underperforming characters, but individually most likely. Some units unironically make pennies on reruns now because they just become useless due to powercreep, like why would you pull Blade nowadays unless you REALLY like him?
rememnber that one time they try to fix the neuvilette's "bug"? now imagine that but for a lot more characters
@@Radiant450 i KNOW it wont happen , but it could be cool nonetheless
@@vinhinh6810 nope i didnt play genshin in a long long time , but many games do balance patches for a lot of characters, it wouldnt be Impossible but it likely wont happen
When you mentioned characters doing too much. This reminded me of the gacha i came from. Final Fantasy Brave Exvius, or FFBE for short. It started with characters doing a single thing, kinda like Natasha is a healer, she heals. period. But, by the time of its EoS recently (End of Service), it went way too deep into the powercreep hole. Every unit is an absolute monster of a powerhouse and every single one of them HAD to do everything! Deal Damage, heal, buff, debuff, whatever else is possible. If you didn't have at least 3 to 6 well built units on your team, you would be COOKED in the endgame. But there is a catch... if you were a day one player like myself. You would be fine. You would always have enough to pull for units and could easily keep up with the ascending meta. Sadly for new players it isn't that simple, right?
HSR is suffering form the same problem rn, at least i believe. I see a lot of new players complaining that it has been too hard to catch up. While day one players like myself aren't struggling at all. Either Hoyo has a plan that couldn't be fulfilled during the game release, or they are deliberately falling the power creep hole and in two years we'll be dealing 1 billion damage in MOC.
I just hope Hoyo do something for older units so they can at least be useful... I fear this decision could be simply re-releasing older characters into new gacha version of themselves. Like DHIL (which is already not optimal, but can still be saved by releasing new characters that buffs Basic ATK/Skill Consumption.)
I had a friend really invested into ffbe, he even got me to play it are little around the time there was like a 6 or 7* cloud and tifa releasing. Honestly my biggest thing with that game is that it felt overwhelming to get into, which kinda points to your point of HSR suffering the same problem for new players.
Like, if I was a new player rn and wanted to clear a 5m hp boss in MoC with my base dan heng I'd be like "wtf how is that possible" and the only answer is "get broken supports or replace dan with a newer unit". But how is that new player even meant to figure that out? What if base dan is the unit they want to use but can't? It's just a mess at this point.
It's definitely not that simple, I didn't play since day 1, but I'm logging in daily since Silverwolfs banner and I still often struggle to clear. 3 stars on MoC 12 are definitely not something that's possible to get with my E0S0 Jingliu,, and my Bronya is E0S0 as well, I just had no luck. If the Weakness mix isn't favorable for my roster, I have to spend a lot of time crafting a team that doesn't suck.
The problem is simply that I ain't meta slaving. I don't have the latest supports (Robin, Lingsha), I didn't like their designs. I'm not pulling Sunday for the same reason. I built a Crit Kafka because I wanted her to be useful outside of DoT (which seemed very weak at the time).
Of course you can say these issues are self inflicted. But my point is just that it's not reasonable to expect everyone pulled all the characters and built all the characters simply because they played for a long time.
HSR is a victim of the fact it's a pure numbers game, there isn't much flexibility to the gameplay itself since at the end of the day the gameplay is just when to use three options and on whom. It feels like Hoyo doesn't understand It's fine for characters to be just a bit stronger than their predecessors but Hoyo is definitely underestimating how much players like the characters, their designs, and animations.
As a new player that just started 2 patches ago I was HYPED for Sunday even though I just finished Penacony because the story was just that good. Sunday and Jing Yuan are the first characters I was able to pull and did pull. That's because their stories were just SO GOOD. I didn't care Sunday was super powerful, I just liked his design.
While I don't know the level of a take this is. I feel like part of the problem is how a section of the playerbase almost demands that the next character be that much stronger.
I remember how with one of Fugue's earlier version, in a pure DPS setting she was essentially a sidegrade and in some instances weaker than HMC, which I found fine since she had her exo toughness which made her preferable in certain settings there were those who wanted her strength to be "layman levels" noticeably stronger. there was also on top people wondering why her ultimate dealt so much damage not regarding that it was an ultimate that dealt a lot of toughness damage to all enemies full stop.
There was also how rappa was considered weaker because she couldn't implant weakness even though she already have penetration.
Lingsha being seen as a gahlleger side grade "not in a good way" and look at how she is performing.
Earlier than that there were complains that feixiao had her speed reduced from a value that could make her go 5 times a cycle on speed boots alone.
Doom post stating that firefly was mid and worthless, look at her now
And the oh so famous "who wants a new 4-star. who wants their favourite character to be the new 4-star" just look at ororon.
I feel like the players should also grow to accept a character would be released not so strong and accept it.
Thats the funny thing is people don't want there favorites to be the one who got the short end of the stick as the character who tones down the scaling so you see a lot even more so for characters that have a solid first impression in terms of design and personality doomposting and begging for buffs.
That is just another consequence of the same issue, the Devs are the ones who conditioned the player base to think that way by consistently releasing characters consistently stronger than the previous one. The scrutiny towards fugue's kit was born from the fear of "what if I pull for this character that is just slightly better than a free one and hoyo just a few patch down the line release the Sunday to her sparkle?"
@@joyboy_3165 While there is merit to your perspective let me engage you in this hypothetical.
Say Fugue resulted in mathematically less damage than HMC, she would still have her exo-toughness which would make her the better support for Rappa, Himeko and xueyi, she is not "stronger" than older units but provided utility that makes them worthwhile, but some people don't want that some people want her to have that utility and be mathematically stronger than HMC. those are the people who I'm pointing my finger at.
@SkyDrifter2025 Yes I got that the first time around and I'm saying even though I'm not part of that crowd I personally can't blame them for feeling that way because their sentiment was ultimately born of the now long standing precedent hoyo has set in this game.
I think the main problem is that people want stronger characters and in a game like HSR, a turn based RPG, it's what the people pay for.
In genshin there is the open world aspect, which makes it more "casual" in a way, so the characters don't really require to be too strong, as they already one shot every enemy in the open world, it also doesn't need too complex as the main attraction are not the character gameplay, but the world and the character's story themselves.
Meanwhile in HSR there's no such thing as open world, corridors are good time waster but is nowhere near as attractive as a fully open world, so in order for they to make character sell they need to make them stronger or something else. They probably tested the water since DHIL and JL and knew people like to roll/pay for powercreep, and acheron and ff fully proved that it totally worked.
The sad thing is, i can see a world where HSR powercreep was more balanced like genshin, but people would become less interesting on rolling for characters or the characters would have been less interesting as balancing sometimes limits the creativity that can be put into a character kit, which is something that genshin is currently suffering.
In short, HSR lacks the open world aspect or content of similar magnitute, so it has to sell end-game units with bigger numbers, which in turns makes the game be balanced around those new numbers.
I had a bit of a different thought. When you talked about Chasca, and this applies to other Genshin characters too as far as I'm aware, the important thing to note is that they deal mostly single target damage, while supports mostly support a single character.
While raw hp numbers in HSR increased, it was partly as a result of adding more mobs. And they did this because they had to sell Erudition units somehow. Fuck, I can't properly flesh out this idea cuz I'm in a game of TFT...
Hopefully you get the idea.
I get what you mean, but that's more of a venti problem I think. If genshin made their end game have mobs rather than always slamming bosses down our throats then I feel venti would take over like he did when the game released and up to 2.0. He's honestly a little bit of a stop gap himself for that game having more varied content.
@@fl2ur Oh no, I wasn't trying to shit on Genshin or anything, or maybe I misunderstood.
The differences in combat between GI and HSR exists on a fundamental level, as you're probably aware. Such that, even without knowing much about Genshin, I doubt that even with hordes of mobs, Venti wouldn't be that much better. I'm speculating, but since only one character can exist on the field at any given time, any effective aoe character would necessarily have to be over tuned. When that happens, you get a repeat of HSR, where Erudition, Blast, and ST carries continue to try and powercreep each other.
To bring it back to the topic of the video, I ultimately have the same conclusion, that hp has to inflate to curb that vicious cycle of creep, but we arrived there at slightly different ways. This isn't even mentioning the fact that HSR prints nearly 2 characters every patch.
@@fl2urThen just don't add smaller mobs? We've had plenty of abysses during 4.0 (presumably when you took a break) where it was AOE but they were heavy mobs like the Mechs, so Venti or any anemo couldn't group them.
8:15 We already have this tho, it's called archetypes and that's how they're currently balancing units. The real reason hp inflation is happening is because we just got two perfectly synergistic teams and the game is clearly being balanced around that.
Sunday should be the strongest support in the game just because he's new and powercreep is a problem, right? Nope, he only works well in some sp intensive teams and summon teams. Break units want Ruan Mei, summons Sunday and follow up ones will want Robin. Having too many buffs or words in his abilities isn't going to make Sunday better in dot teams than whatever dot support they give us in the future.
The thing is, the more bloated kits are, the more likely a unit built for one niche can play outside of it. Robin is the best support in the game, period. You can see this in how she's used in almost every team archetype (including dot). Sunday is meant for summon units sure, but due to being bronya pro max, he's usable in the every one of the places she is. Firefly has niche use cases where she acts as a support(fire implanter) for himeko. Rappa has use cases as a universal breaker for firefly teams.
The whole point of the video is that units just do too much. If you take away a little bit from their kits then they're guaranteed to stay in niche, but hoyo doesn't seem to want to do that.
@@fl2ur Yeah but they're played in other teams because the game is still new and we don't have something that covers every niche. Robin isn't going to be played in a dot team once we get a dot support, we just need to give them time.
If you complained about things like Sunday powercreeping Sparkle for no reason due to his kit doing too much I would understand, but you often complain about word counts and even brought up Rappa's energy passive even tho she's clearly balanced around that because she deals basically no dmg outside of her ultimate and it costs 140 energy, so of course she's going to have something like that. You even pointed at Ruan Mei but she's no different than Bronya, they both provide a lot of different things, she's just giving buffs that actually work with break units.
Try saying that in Bronya/Sparkle face.
1000% agree. HP inflation is a result of character inflation. But nobody wants to talk about the ridiculously strong characters that have been released lately. It's just "HP too high" types of comments.
I get that people don't like talking "badly" about their favorite games, but it's just absurd.
This. I was watching a beta video of an upcoming boss in 3.0 and Feixiao running against it and some in the comments were blaming her for how absurd she came to be, as if she wasn't also a consequence from the Acheron> era of dps in this game, then a slightly weaker dps comes out and it's the same community that claims "trash, skip because they're weak".
Aglaea looks like she's gonna be absurdly strong too but I wouldn't be surprised if the next Acheron ends being Castorice in terms of it being heavily felt in the game with the kit strength and enemies/mechanics built around for the character to tackle.
Thing is if X dps launches same level or even 1% weaker than the previous one, people will just say why bother or X dps is not worth or mid if you have Y, if they launch too hot (and they aren’t as beloved as say acheron and FF) they are flamed and blamed for powercreep, when it was 1000% acheron who started this whole dps powercreep shitshow to begin with. Now I am not saying we blame the character its hoyo who makes them this way, just that people even when blaming characters blame the wrong ones.
@@Radiant450 We can look at the Rappa banner as an example. Rappa was massively skipped despite having a higher ceiling than FF simply because FF/Boothill already filled a similar role and had similar performance.
Perhaps I am just making a wrong call here, but maybe the reason that people are not talking about character inflation is because how horribly bad the relic system is, like you just won't be able to build your crit characters easily, the relic system is the worst I have seen in any gacha game, ofc Acheron's kit is so good that even with low investment she can dosh out good dmg but other dps still need good builds, but the relic rng is just so horrible
Dang. Thats True, HSR characters do like 8 Billion Things lol
As someone that has been playing gachas for close to a decade at this point, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with this. But honestly, it surprises me that this has to be even said!
I'll just call the beast by it's name:
This is just by the numbers powercreep.
More multipliers, more kit features, more text. These are pretty good indicators for increased strength of characters. And inflated enemy stats are soon to follow, so they can match those stronger characters. This relationship between ally and enemy strength has been known for a long time!
I'm honestly a bit confused why people seem to not understand this point. But I have to remember that people that play Hoyo games have very little interaction with the greater gacha space, so they are having these conversations for the first time. In that light, it makes sense that we'll retread old ground here.
But that ties to a greater point here I think:
While we have been in a gacha popularity boom, "quality gachas" still very much remain gachas using very much the same tactics as their brethren. It's just that people that recently entered the space haven't become quite educated to these aspects yet, which makes them more vulnerable.
I do not mean to be hostile in this comment, but wanted to raise awareness, as we need to look out for each other in this space.
Agreed with a lot of this. Most of the point of the video is explaining my thought process and hopefully making people more aware of the issues. I'm a long time gacha player too, so I feel the same way you do about this.
@@fl2ur In that light, I am very grateful you made this video! We need more education about these topics in this space!
It's more of a chicken and the egg problem. Do enemies get absurd HP values because characters are getting more and more broken, or are characters getting more and more broken because the enemies get absurd HP values? The real problem is that the team behind hsr went too fast with their gameplay visions and now we have the HP and powercreep problem.
I can definitely see this being the case. Realistically though, idk that it matters which came first because it definitely is a problem either way, like you said. HSR just kinda moved too fast compared to how other games are, and its resulted in the issues.
Yes! You've managed to descripe what's been on my mind for the last ~ year. It was kinda exciting when the first broken characters started to come out cause of wow factor, but it got old very quickly. Now I feel like every other new unit is the NEW META, the STRONGEST, the MOST USEFUL. You got new character and they are already feels weaker the next patch. Im exaggerating, but you got the point. I feel like this powercreep will be an even bigger problem in the future.
Duality of man:
WHYYY HP INFLATION HAPPENING REEEEE
and
SKIP UNIT IF NOT SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER DMG OUTPUT
Finally some1 who understands the real problem
Someone is same strength level as previous best thing: why bother?
Someone is better than previous best thing: POWERCREEP
However this sentiment is weird because if a unit is loved enough people are willing to look the other way, its just recently that people are starting to see how unhealthy Acheron’s strength level was for the game, everyone after her is a byproduct of her strength level basically, so that they could at least compete, yet they ended up surpassing and becoming powercreep themselves.
Well Hoyo caused that mentality themselves because they make certain characters better than the others instead of balancing the game well. Boothill and Rappa was good characters but they clearly made Firefly the more definitive and versatile option since they handle single target and aoe content well nevermind she got multiple fire element teammates to help her whereas the others didn't get anything.
The only dps you really needed to pull in 2.x was Acheron and Firefly because they handle the situations you would have pulled Feixiao, Boothill, Rappa, Jade or Yunli for without issue anyway because they are the favored units. Those other dps are for sure more situationally useful may even be have higher dmg ceiling like Feixiao but they don't bring much value at all if you pulled the favored units and their supports.
No doubt they will make Castorice in the game Awards trailer cracked because thats clearly who they want players to focus on.
Actually your whole argument makes a lot of sense. In the next survey I'll recommend the video to the dev team. And u earn a sub
Don't know about the Chinese community, but in global there's the pervasive problem of any new character who is not direct and clear powercreep being called mid, ez skip, poor investment, etc. Hoyo's going to sell you the characters you want to buy. "Skip Lingsha, she's a Gallagher sidegrade." "Only reason to pull Fugue is in case you want to run break and RMC on the same floor." "You can skip Robin, she's a Ruan Mei sidegrade and only better for FUA (lol)". Even with kits as bloated as Sunday, you still have some saying it's better to skip and get his rerun because he just doesn't push the envelope as much RIGHT NOW.
You also have some content creators / so-called "meta experts" setting 0 cycles as the standard. Even if very few players will ever reach that standard there's still the wider expectation of "If this character can't clear in 1-2 cycles they've fallen off". Which is why you now see Acheron being ragged on, whereas in my personal observations I've yet to see any indication she can't clear MoC12. Or you have some loonies calling Firefly a "fraud DPS" because "she can't 0-cycle without S5 DanceDanceDance".
My only hope is that the current HP inflation was done by Hoyo to kill the expectation of 0 cycling for non-whales, because despite all of the recent complaints about powercreep I don't see anything to suggest that the current community is going to do anything but further enable it with their pulling/spending habits. In any case, pulling for meta seems like the most miserable way to play this game. Your characters aren't "investments" when a full endgame clear gives you 2% of the pulls needed to guarantee an E0S0. As much as it might suck to see 33/36 stars in MOC, I'll just ignore it if the current trend keeps up. I grew up too poor for keeping on a gacha treadmill to seem like a good use of my money.
all i got from this video was that we need more supports like jiaoqiu in the game.
One problem I see is a new player getting into the game, playing through the story. Maybe they read the story carefully, or maybe they just skim through it or use autoclicker. Whatever the case, they may for example see Kafka in the story and think to themselves "Hey, I really like Kafka, her banner is there and I'm gonna roll for her," and they use up 120+ pulls only to find out Kafka has been powercrept long ago.
That's a really good point, it's kinda unfortunate that new players can get stuck in the situation of wanting to pull for older characters but they're not super worth it anymore
You think 2.0 MOC Enemy HP was bad? Wait until you see 3.0 MOC HP.
That one 9M HP boss has a gimmick that cuts the HP in half
@@SupurNeoDude4.5M HP is still pretty high
Even if you are right. What can be affected easier? A nerf to enemy HP? Or a nerf to units? Even if you say, well going forward don't make them so strong that wont help what's already happened. I realize too that going the other direction is a problem likely also, but the simple answer for now is to nerf the HP. Or start scaling both back in the future.
I'm mixed on how the game is handling things with character power, on one hand I'm actually kind of glad that characters are actually stronger because a higher power budget means they can be more flexible in what they actually do and the more flexibility you allow a character to have the more they can use it to get into something a lot more specific and enter certain niches and promote different playstyles better. This makes me excited for characters that are more unique and interesting than what... *some* 1.X characters have been where some of their ultimates or talents or even skills sometimes felt really uninteresting and that played a fair amount into why they were ultimately just bad units by today's standards. Like look at Bronya's talent (30% action advance on using basic at lv. 10) and tell me when you're gonna ever make any use of that outside of maybe some really niche scenarios. Probably never! So I think raising the overall power level isn't bad on it's own. However there is of course the bad part to this in that yeah this does cause the enemies to get stronger and as such old units become really not good anymore. This is why I really hope that we can get more direct buffs to old units some day because some of them have pretty interesting ideas for a kit that just kinda don't get fleshed out nearly as well as if they were made today, and it's a shame because a modern version of older units that lack some pizazz in their kit would be really fun, this is why the way I hope they buff these characters is through a system similar to HI3's augment cores that kinda just change how the character works, though here I'd not make them into a totally different character, I'd want them to still keep some core ideas in the character even if they do change some parts significantly if it's necessary to be able to actually expand upon the character. Oh and of course there's still the problem of hoyoverse could potentially just keep increasing the power cap without ever really putting a lid on it and making contemporary units the best for their time in more elegant ways than being a power spike over older units (mode specific caters like MoC buffs and PF buffs and enemy lineup plays a part in doing this better than just a power upgrade but that's a whole can of worms that there's no need to get *too* deep into)
This wall of text requires paragraphs. Please use paragraphs. This is unreadable.
I agree with this mostly - realistically I know that it's not possible to fully keep people at even strength levels. Even if they tried, there would eventually be a slip up where someone ends up stronger than intended - what would they do then, nerf them?(no)
What I really want is it to slow down at the very least by lowering the amount of things characters get in their kits, or if they want to keep giving a lot of stuff, then make each thing less potent. Like, sure Sunday could keep his AA and CD buff, but make his crit buff 8% instead of 20(wtf were they thinking)
I've seen this kind of thing everywhere: Fate Grand Order, Fire Emblem Heroes, DBZ Dokkan Battle, it always happens to my favorite Gacha games; a true shame.
I hate how people use the excuse of " they can't buff characters cause people will say why dont the buff xxx character their my main and its obvious they dont like xxx character because of xxx!1!1!"
It is funny how with arrival of Acheron all the game balance went out of the window
In early 2.x patches I thought that Sparkle was the fairest character in the game (because she is)
But because we got balanced characters like Acheron, FF, FX, Lingsha and Sunday, Sparkle seems just bad, terrible
The archetype she supports has only one 2 charactes which she cant even support that well when it comes to her sp regen!
QQ and Seele both devour more SP that Sparkle can recover
The more painful thing that Sparkles specialziation buffs are just powercrept just by other characters having better buffs just by existing - Robin's concerto state, Sunday Beatified state, Ruan Mei res pen, even Moze provides more buffs than Sparkle, I think?
I dont know why they didnt just stop with Acheron with the busted af units, when shes only one who makes sense to be op (even when she shouldnt be this good)
I do think another thing that really helped genshin is that it somewhat soft capped itself with archons being the peak of one thing so nothing is really trying to outdo the previous, but hsr never had that so when they released that very first over tuned character they kinda just had to continue doing it so that one character is not just the objective best while everyone else is just subpar
For me, personally, I feel somewhat conflicted, I guess? I actually do not mind the high difficulty at all, but I do feel bad over not being able to relate with some in the community and there being a disagreement from my side in general.
There are two things that I should mention to contextualize things. I don't even have 35 characters on my account, and my main DPS chars are Argenti, Qingque and Serval, from 1.5 when I started playing, till today.
Furthermore, and more importantly, I think that I have a preestablished and slight bias towards actually not minding the high difficulty because I came from Genshin. I played Genshin from 1.0 until the ending of Sumeru. For a vast majority of the game's life cycle, approximately from 1.3 onwards, I kind of disliked my time there in a similar way to how a lot of HSR players are feeling about the "HP Inflation" / Feature Bloat. However, I disliked my time in Genshin for the exact opposite reason, and for the same reason some might like Genshin, specifically:
- I really, really, really disliked how easy the game was, it felt like I never had anything to work towards. This is coming from someone who mained Klee. (Albeit, my other main was Tartaglia.)
- I really disliked how simple the character kits were, because each felt so similar to one another in my eyes.
On the points of what I disliked there, I also commonly saw comments from people and discussions around these topics wherein people - I would say, based on my insight and experiences - could agree with me. Not everyone, obviously, but a chunk of people.
This is not to take away from anyone liking Genshin. I stuck with the game for as long as I did specifically because I cared for the game so much to actually criticize it so much, and I suspect that people have similar outlooks on HSR.
I still use old, crusty 4-star DPS units (and Argenti) because I believe in the idea that horizontal investment is the way to go in HSR, compared to the vertical investment that is present moreso in other games. I believe that in Genshin, it is incentivized to produce great stats for a few characters you wanna build, but that in HSR, it's better to produce good enough stats for a lot of characters who cover many bases. I'm still doing fine, I full cleared last PF with my Serval, about to full clear the current AS with my Qingque, etc., and I would assume it's because I invest in every unit I have a good amount. Granted, full disclosure, reason why I advocate for horizontal investment while also having below 35 chars on my acc is because I E6'd Argenti. I love that stupid man.
However, I believe that horizontal investment is not easy for the general gacha audience because most gacha games kinda train the mind towards vertical investment, especially with how the culture of "maining" someone is, how humans will typically gravitate towards "perfecting" their favourites, and because its very easy to form a bond with a character in a gacha game considering how companies actively try to hook you in any way possible to feel compelled towards a character.
Finally, I also think that there should be a lot more effort put into full clearing if you actually want to, but also that it is ultimately inconsequential, so it doesn't bother me too much. I see the last stars in the endgame content as something to work towards a lot, whether it be in building chars or playing a lot for the god runs. And if I fail, I do not mind it too much, mostly because I think that it's normal for the hardest of hard content in a game to be "exclusive" and also because I won't stress over, like, half a pull or something like that.
(On a side-note, I also just prefer HSR's story and reward system a ton more, so that might also be something to consider if we're looking for potential biases.)
(EDIT: also to add the fact that there's so much endgame, obviously, too)
All in all, despite me not having many characters, nor using newer units to full clear, I do want to say that I have difficulties clearing the hardest content, as aforementioned in the last paragraph I sent, and it's not like I always manage to do it. It takes a lot of research, grinding and effort, but I don't mind it.
However, just because I don't mind it, doesn't mean that I advocate necessarily for it. I left Genshin, but I accept that it's simply not for me. I think that both HSR and Genshin have their own niches, and it just depends on what you, as a player, would like more.
This was a great video by the way, I wish you much luck in your TH-cam career
Rare Argenti haver spotted! I made a 2nd account forever ago just to get him back when he released.
Anyway, I do want to specify the point I was trying to make in the video wasn't really about difficulty. I actually am in the same boat as you comparing genshin to hsr in terms of how genshin didn't really have any as it's a super easy game. I was more trying to point out the difference in character kit bloats between the two, and hopefully lead people to start thinking "well, maybe there's a middle ground between the two" instead of one or the other.
Increasing difficulty doesn't equal to more hp bloat, you can have one without the other, aventurine boss fight was one of the highest difficulty spikes when he's released, but he does so because of his gimmick, not just by having 5x the hp pool. You're rewarded by ulting at the right time to get it back fully after he's doing the gamba thing, while punishing people that don't. Compare that to svarog that have almost 0 mechanic except with his hand summon, and for many teams, the hand is literally a gamba that either doesn't matter at all, or fked up your speed tuning if you ignore it. And the only counter is basically breaking and killing him fast enough before he does it
@@fl2ur Hehe, I love ma man
Tbh I’m thinking about quitting since my biggest problem is saving up for a character. It would be good for a patch, but in a few months about 4-5 new characters would now be better than it. Sad how the devs did not take this into consideration.
I wish more people talked about that, because it really is a problem, and it should get resolved someway or another, because eventually characters will reach the point that the only new thing they're going to bring to the table is just bigger numbers.
If Sunday kit is already so overloaded, imagine for example in 2 years, they release a support that buffs HP, DEF, ATK, Energy, RES PEN, Crit Rate, Crit Damage, BE, EHR, Speed, DMG at E0 alone
Fun Fact: If you try to speak about powercreep problem with the russian community of HSR they will make fun of you saying that their E2 Firefly clears all content, so it's fine
Yeah I've seen some takes saying "well as long as we can clear powercreep doesn't exist", completely ignoring the fact that some people don't want to get the shiny new toy or eidolons on those toys just to do so. It's silly.
Idk about Russian community, but from my perspective (im Russian too), i think opinions are divided 60/40, where 60% - begin to be indignant, because their "acheron" has stopped passing the content. Heh.
I think this mainly has to do with the devs not being able to truly create a different playstyle. The only unique play style we've gotten since release was Dot. The others all share the same triple support glass cannon play style. They might feel different but they are the same exact thing. Like what everyone does, if you can't figure how to make something different then you just have to repeat the same things and make it better. That's how we got here. If HSR released characters slower and focused on making a characters kit more unique than we wouldn't be dealing with HP inflation this early on into the games life but who am I kidding here? They can't even make unique kits in genshin despite being 4 years in.
I noticed this when people talked about Fugue. Her kit seems pretty straightfoward. She gives break damage boost and super break damage. Her multipliers are good and she seems fun and interesting to slot into different teams.
But every time she came up, there were a million reasons she sucks. "Can't use DDD on her", "She gives no speed boost like RM", "her def shred isn't that good" and I'm like, how can any character even compete with the current powerhouse supports without just having a "you win" skill button?
HSR seriously needs more power creep in exactly one category: Story. :P
Yeah, Penacony had its moments but the story as a whole was kinda of a mess with a LOT of plot points not really conecting or being resolved off-screen (Aventurine being saved by Argenti, Robin whole character arc, the IPC plans to Penacony, Sparkles, etc...).
@@Truck-kun11 LOL... I'm not all the way through Penacony and I cannot figure WTF is going on. And this is coming from someone who has read Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, and the first 4 books of Wheel of Time... I don't struggle with complex plots.... I struggle when they just aren't explained. I'm sure the story is beautiful, but I cannot figure it out. Why is the cornerstone so important to an IPC member? Why did Sunday try to kill Aventurine? If you die in the dream world do you die IRL?
My personal favorite: What is the Watch Maker's Legacy? I hear that term once per cut scene and I have NO IDEA what it is.... and somehow the Express Crew and Acheron are after it... and never bother explaining it...
Dear, HOYO: If it's so central to the plot, at least show me a picture of the thing, or explain it.
Just have a 10 second cut-scene of Sunday glancing at the Watch Maker's Legacy so I know what it is. It isn't hard to write this stuff and yet, Hoyo just cannot help themselves. It's just dialogue dump after dialogue dump.
Agree fully. It's like where we are now is what ALL OF 3.X should be at ceiling wise.
In the early patches like 1.0 there wasn't a real focus on an team comp, that was up to players to piece together. The characters were their own units and did what they did because they could supply their own triggers to their effects. Kafka could supply her own DoTs to to trigger them in the Ult. Weakness breaks were more important because that was the only real way to get real dmg in. Despite all of that, the dmg characters could do was roughly the same so surviving an onslaught was more important than buffing.
Now the dmg characters do has ballooned thanks to the onset of not just Super Break but at base newer characters just do more dmg. Instead of making use of the unique mechanics to control a fight and make them more engaging, Hoyo decided that just ballooning HP will fix it without taking into account that an HP sponge is never fun to fight.
I think kit bloat is okay, but the bloat must be "directed".
Like we mention Sunday, but as absurd as his kit is, it has a clear identity, with him having all of his buffs being single target and his ult encouraging only skilling your hypercarry. Yes he is absolutely broken with what he does but there are tons of teams that do not mesh well with what he does, and there is a good chance not all summon comps will actually run Sunday despite his power level.
The problem comes with characters like Robin or Fei Xiao, where the limitations were clearly not thought through. Robin's energy demands have tons of workaround, and Fei Xiao being a single target might be a joke at this point, with her damage profile and frequency of attack. Currently, any type of content can be cleared by them and any unit that attacks frequently can become an indirect buff to the team. It becomes very hard to design enemies or characters that could not play into this kind of team archetype.
Hopefully summons are not a "I do everything, but with more damage" kind of deal, or else it's looking grim.
Agreed with a lot of this, though I do want to add on that being bloated/broken can bring characters outside of their intended niche - like how robin is usable literally everywhere, and how sunday despite being intended for summons is also usable everywhere bronya is, feixiao(like you said) can be used anywhere that you have a fast attacking unit(hello summons lmao)
Feixiao can't even 2c or barely the content tailored for her (current MoC first half) assuming no signature and no E1 Robin.. what's the issue here exactly? Yeah she's absolutely insane in 0c strategies, but how is that any relevant for the average playerbase? She's not any stronger than Acheron/FF except when the content is obviously tailored for her
Another thing I noticed is that characters now have their best or 2nd best Eidolon effect at E1. Sunday gets DEF shred at E1 (plus the summon gets TWICE the DEF shred) so then E1S1 Sunday is hard buffing any upcoming REM characters at just E1, if Agleae etc have DEF shred or something bonkers at E1, yeah broken game. At the same time, a subset of people are skipping characters that they know are gonna change the meta and complaining they can't clear stuff (regardless of scaling, some bosses/enemies are meant to be fought with certain archetypes)
I feel like another big part of this is that the game in general just moves so much faster than Genshin- more akin to other gachas. We get 2 characters per patch, which goes hand in hand with how much more vast these characters kits are.
But in that same vein, just like other gachas, HSR is still a game of investment. Take for example Jing Yuan, he released and he was okay, but very much not as strong as he could be considering the lack of characters that could support a summon/follow up attack character. But each couple of patches, his strength started to show, with him getting a new relic set and characters like Sparkle, Robin, Aventurine/ HuoHuo and now Sunday each elevating him to a new height of strength, to the point where him, as a 1.0 DPS, is considered one of the strongest characters in the game.
Trust me, I completely understand the problem with how these characters are constantly coming out with insane kits. One of my biggest issues is the fact that targetting weaknesses, a mechanic that has been here since day 1, is now getting completely warped due to characters simply ignoring the weakness or forcing weakness implant. Ironic, considering Boothill is one of my favorite DPS, I know.
But again, characters like Seele or Jing Yuan are getting resurgences thanks to some of these newer supports. Like I said, this is a game of investment, people are still clearing with DoT teams which are almost a year old with no real support just yet, and PF makes it so that characters who may have seen relatively weaker, biggest examples being Himeko and Herta, are absolute monsters without even needing a crazy set-up, just as long as their builds are in order you're set.
Sure, summoning on a character that you may not have any real attachment to is unfortunate, I won't deny that. But I feel that if there is a character you enjoy, you would want to bolster their strength and usefulness as much as possible, right? That's why I went for Sunday, because he makes my Jing Yuan and DHIL stronger, and helps them stay competitive along with me improving my builds.
genshin scaled so much since natlan came out tulpa boss was in abyss not long ago with 2 mil hp now it has 3.6 mil but comparing both games really doesn't work due to how they are played elemental reactions vs all the different archetypes in hsr doesn't make sense to compare them since it doesn't translate 1 to 1
Pretty sure first Tulpa was already 3m HP.
Yeah, HP increase doesn't affect Genshin as much as HSR since in Genshin you have several ways to amplify your damage through reactions and smart play while in HSR the only two ways to do more damage is by getting better Relics (Which completely depends on RNG) or getting new characters, and even those two methods have a hard limit on how far you can go.
Genshin is also way older as well
We just need a new additional gear system and it'll increase the power ceiling for every unit equally
Something they could do is have dmg type immunities like say Kafka (boss) would be immune to lightning since she does lightning dmg but de buffs like defense down or stuff like that gives them the ability to dmg them
I think the power increase is notable however, I just don't feel it's as bad as people make it out to be for a lot of units. I've been using Clara to 3 star MoC and PF since I got her which was around 2.1 iirc (I started like a day before 2.0). This includes outright brute forcing MoC 12 floors with no physical weakness. Despite being a 1.0 standard banner unit, she's kept up her performance based on me actually investing in her relics, supports (Sparkle, then Robin on her rerun), and upgrades like Yunli's light cone.
Old units benefit from new supports as well. I think a bigger part of the powercreep aspect is older units who are lacking synergistic supports- Jingliu, Blade for instance. If you look at what happened to Jing Yuan, being completely T2 on Prydwen then jumping several tiers immediately on Sunday's release should be a good indicator that old units can be good and viable- they just need the same synergistic teams that new units like Acheron, Firefly, and Feixiao have.
Personally, I have Acheron but I really struggle with her. She doesn't have the same level of investments in her relics and supports that my Clara, Jing Yuan, or Ratio have. I don't have Jiaoqiu, my Pela's build is so-so, the other nihility option is between Black Swan or Guinaifen... in my circumstances, my e0s1 Acheron is not reliable. She could be, if I put in the work to make her so. She doesn't perform like a t0.5 DPS for me, but that's largely my own fault for neglecting her.
I agree with this but I’d like to add one thing
Hsr characters NEED to do a lot to be usable, they need to do a hella ton of DMG to be clear the content, they need to have multiple buffs to actually bring more value to the dps, they need to have a lot of healing etc.
Compared to genshin, they don’t have to do all that, they are easy to play/build, they’re usable. They bring more value out of the dps, let’s use them.
An example is Natlan characters with the hero set, even characters that offer nothing whatsoever in their kit like kachina can be a very solid character with the four piece hero of the cinder city set.
And that’s how niche character stayed at least usable in genshin, they do something, there’s a way for them to be usable.
And with newer characters, old characters can still remain if they offer something.
And why thay NEED to do a lot? bc enemy hight hp?
@@justlumien Not just because of hp but if a newer lightning dps stayed around, say Acheron dmg output, what reason would there be to ever pull on them? People who pull for liking the character or other non meta reasons are excluded from this. Acheron does the job just fine so why even bother getting something new when what you have does the job just fine.
Once your account has at least a dps of every element and some aoe units, why ever pull for new dps when all your old units do just as a great as the new element dps? The boss' hp wouldn't be improving much since everyone would stay around the same dps lvl.
In Genshin, I would've not pulled for Clorinde or Cyno since my C2 Raiden was way stronger than them and only pulled them because of liking their character. So far in Hsr, I haven't been affected by this as I'm still filling out team archetypes and not just new dpses.
@@jordanslaughter9797 in genshin many people still pull for new dps characters regardless if they are meta or not, i know so many ppl who have c1 neuvi and still pulled for mualani, kinich, and chasca even tho they didn't powercreep neuvi they still pulled the characters for other reasons like wanting more characters, finding their kit/mechanic fun, or they simply like them.
in HSR however many ppl find it hard to justify pulling a new dps even tho they really like them if they don't compete or outright powercreep older dps. which is honestly just sad cause genshin were still able to sell newer characters without having to powercreep the older ones, while in HSR they have to give this new character a gamebreaking kit mulltiplier or else it won't sell and the cycle continues.
inb4 5.0 Units
Buffer: Grants any character Seeles Resurgence and at e2 this can trigger indefinetely when conditions are met. while they have resurgence they gain 50% allrespen and ignore 80% of opponents DEF
Dps: Upon casting ultimate immediatly breaks the targets weakness and deals break dmg equal to 2500% of the units fire break dmg. This ignores weakness types and weakness protection
Debuffer: they finally caught up with 2.7 harmonies
Sustain: grant immortality field to 1 character. the target character cannot be defeated except by certain abilities
i see another problem all jokes aside
idk why hoyo keeps sidelining nihilities like they are some kind of 2nd grade support
the balance would be better if buffers werent giving 50 different buff while nihilities were scrounging to get 1-2. ofc harmonies are bloated to all hell if they are treated like the only dmg amp support class
The "preservation" character of 5.x
Talent:When allies are hit, deals dmg equal to 250 percent of (x character) DEF percentage,if it's an aoe hit,triples the damage dealt. After using this, all allies gain a 35 percent def ignorance for 3 turns.
Skill:Applies "? " to all allies.Allies that have "?" has their HP increased by 160 percent and they take 35 percent less dmg. When an ally with "? " gets hit,recovers 7 percent of their max HP+120 percent (x character)'s DEF percent,and increases the RES PEN by 10 percent for 5 turns,max 5 stacks.
Ultimate(110 cost btw) :Advances the all team by 100 percent and makes them immune to any type of crowd controls, lasting for 5 turns. Additionally, (x character) deals a coordinated attack equal to 85 percent of her def for every hit made by allies.
Traces:Increases the team's DEF percentage by 70 percent.When an ally falls down, (x character) revives them equal to 200 percent of their DEF. This can trigger up to 2 times each battle.
Every time (x character) triggers her talent or takes action, recover 5 percent of the max HP of all allies and recovers 5 percent of the allies max energy. This can be triggered a maximum amount of 3 per turn.
(x character) increases the allies CRIT rate and CRIT dmg based off their DEF percentage, a maximum amount of 50 CRIT rate and 100 CRIT dmg can be obtained this way.
Yea this seems undercooked maybe, but seriously this is getting out of normal
I dont play Genshin anymore, so I must ask: Is Bennett/Xiangling/Xingqiu teams still a thing nowdays? Because if so, you cant use them as metric to talk about powercreep. The are literally doing more than 5* units for a loooooooong time, and probably will continue to do so.
Their kits, while simple, was god damn effective that even overshadowed shinier units, which is good for F2P, but "bad" for a gacha system that thrives on making new units get the spotlight.
Yep, Bennet is still the only and best ATK Buffer (Even though this is not so valuable anymore since we have a lot of characters that scale in other stats like DEF or HP), Xiangling still is the beat Off-Field Pyro DPS (But Mavuika will probably change that), Xingqiu technically was powercrept by Yelan in damage but he still has more hydro aplication and sustain than her.
completely agreed.
Which makes it WILD that Sparkle is actually relatively well-balanced in the grand scheme of things. Yes she gives a little bit more damage buffing and SP regeneration, BUT she also *only action advances by 50% instead of 100%.* They gave her something extra, and then took away a bit from a different part of her kit, to make her a sidegrade to Bronya, not a direct Bronya pro max+++. And then Sunday comes waltzing in with even more buffing than Sparkle while ALSO having 100% action advance. Like... What the HELL are you doing Hoyo?
Same with Aventurine, why does he give extra crit DMG to anyone attacking the enemy he used his Ult on? Seriously, there was NO need for that in his kit!
From what we know about Fugue's kit, she seems like a generally decently balanced premium replacement for Harmony MC. Superbreak activation is NOT locked behind using Ultimate, gives some Break Effect buffs and allows for Def shred... which is pretty ok because she's Nihility. She's *meant* to debuff enemies. That's par for the course, and she seems balanced alrightly.
But then I heard through the grapevine that one of her eidolons gives a full ***s5 Dance Dance Dance action advance on ult usage*** and... Hoyo, why?
The thing is, the strength of these characters shouldn't influence the HP pool until these units with inflated numbers out number characters that don't.
Me pulling firefly in the height of her meta did not stop me from clearing MoC 12 with my DoT team+ Argenti in team 2. Nor did it stop me from replaying it with her
7:35 "Create problem, sell the solution."
Not only is this an effective way to incetivize players to spend money (I am not calling it "good", but "effective" from a business standpoint), MHY has been doing this since even before Genshin was released. They're not even the only dev doing that, but this is about MHY. Anyway, I'm not at all surprised that this is how Hoyo handles HSR powercreep. As an RPG, the most important factor in the end are hard numbers. MHY has never stricken me as particularly skilled at handling RPGs so the fact the dev team defaulted to numbercreep as the go-to way to advance the game seemed like an obvious thing that was bound to happen eventually. There's only so many ways you can use a certain number of mechanics with equivalent numbers before the solution to variety is to create whole new mechanics, slap several mechanics together in one character or raise the numbers on old mechanics; sometimes they reuse mechanics while removing some limitations they had as well.
Now, there are certainly examples accross the board of gacha games about how powercreep is handled; but powercreep in a gacha game is effectively inevitable. Even when it doesn't seem to impact as much, the fact is its still there.
To use an example I've seen cited somewhat recently: FGO, despite its infamous reputation as an old and predatory game, has had a relatively elegant solution to powercreep. First off, it exists. Anyone telling you otherwise is BSing you. Secondly, while it exists across all levels of play, from DPS to supports, which kind of powercreep matters most is very, very different. Supports are KING: as long as you have the best supports possible for a given category, you can make a lot of units work for you because the vast majority of the game is about farming and the best supports are also mostly the ones that enable the best farming methods. Similarly, with those supports in hand, there are a number of "omnifarmers" that can do most of the farming on their own for you.
The F2P income is poor as hell, but if you spend smart you can certainly get away with being F2P in FGO for an extremely long time. So long, in fact, that HSR could go through five years of powercreep and you could probably still use the same 5 or so units in FGO and keep cruising through the game because, unlike HSR, most of the challenging content in FGO is *entirely optional* often with minuscule rewards...which is the flipside of the coin.
In RPGs, the challenge is often about complicated mechanics or high numbers, often both together. HSR decides to make this part of the reward system in MoC/PF/AS (not so much in SU modes where the rewards are negligible), while FGO makes the challenge itself the point. In FGO it makes for a game that's very much about clearing with the characters you like *usually* (because devs will sometimes still fall into annoying design pitfalls that make clearing with your preferred characters much harder or even impossible compared to other options), but also incredibly easy to drop because you have to actively make yourself care about sticking with it, whereas Hoyo's games (including HSR) excel at giving things for the player to do; if not care about, at least it encourages the player to keep coming back.
I don't particularly like the powercreep problem, but I've been living with it for so long due to playing HI3 since before Genshin came out that it's just a fact of life for me. This is pretty much Hoyo' s101 and I don't foresee it changing, not when Hoyo is effectively an unkillable giant at this point. In the end, the players vote with their wallets, and as long as people open their wallets to Hoyo while they use these design choices, the trajectories of these games will not change where game balance is concerned.
i'm a relatively new player and my friend plays from day 1. i'm donating a little bit, so i got the newest charas and a couple eidolons, but my friend is ftp and is stuck with blade. i'm closing all the content at all stars easily, friend struggles. it's very sad bc i wand to roll blade too when he reruns... will he even rerun though now that he's negative meta? 😭 just hoping that the old cute charas will get jingyuan treatment and become meta again with the new supports (the hope is very low tho). nice monetary strategy i guess, but i really wish they invested more time into plot instead
oh no
they're starting to understand
someone call Da Wei
5:54 I think you are just wrong
They are definitely factoring the relic set. They design the relic sets around the character kits
Hoyoverse and more specifically the HSR team want that result.
The only way "hoyoverse doesn't factor in relic sets" would make sense as a statement is if Sunday's BiS relics came out way before Sunday and isn't obviously made for him.
Personally I don't think its even an issue for these newer characters being made as good as they have.
HSR and Genshin are fundamentally different games
Genshin is an exploration game with a lot more freedom with their combat
HSR is a turn based game and is a lot easier to master the base mechanics of the game leading to the only real way of improving your account lies in new characters which just do more than the last
Powercreep isn't even fast, Genshin's powercreep is just slow. Basically non-existent (which leads to their own issues)
Despite the HP increase, even with 1.0 character, you can still clear MoC 12 within 10 cycles assuming you have decent relics, on element and use good supports
Also telling players to pay up is a bit disingenuous
You don't need to spawn for every character and every patch you get a lot of gems and tickets to spawn for new units
Basically every update cycles:
1. Stronger new character
2. The new character shred everything
3. The enemies is "stronger" So the new character doesn't shred as much
4. New even stronger character
5. Repeat the 2.
And it will keep going. This is a REAL problem. In the future, the new dps will casually deal 3 million damage to deal 28% in MoC. The problem is that mihoyo's target on the new character is the powers. They're not priotizing on implementing unique character mechanic.
It's just like, "this unit is strong, just use it!" Instead of "this unit is strong IF [blablabla] and also this unit only using it's full potential if [blablavla] but [blablabla] which is hard to use, but reward you for a great strength if used correctly" They just don't! The new unit are just free dps spike and they're even THAT easy to use
Now that I think about it. Some characters are even a reused 4 star character concept for a 5 star character
One of the biggest problems is that people can't tell the difference between powercreep and meta.
Firefly is OP, right? What if I tell you that HYV put puppet trio in (LITERALLY) every other MoC since her release? That's called the meta, not powercreep. Firefly loses a lot of performance each time puppet trio isn't in MoC, from 0-1 cycles to 3-4 cycles. HYV keeps putting wind-weak enemies for Feixiao, keeps putting fire-weak enemies for Lingsha (which is one of the reasons why she's so much better than Gallagher right now), etc.
Feixiao isn't necessarily better than Firefly and Firefly isn't necessarily better than Acheron. The exact lineup dictates what's better and thus meta, but the meta always change. HYV just happens to heavily favor the recently released characters. Dendro also was heavily favored in Genshin the whole 3.X era, and it fell off a bit since 4.X started, not even a need for new DPS units to come out for that to happen. Nilou was perceived as being insanely good in any AoE lineup and now she's barely viable since 4.X, not even a joke.
Note I'm not arguing there isn't powercreep, like obviously 1.X units got powercrept. But sometimes it's also way overblown because people can't tell the difference between powercreep and meta.
Few points, warning long paragraph ahead
Before everything,powercreep is responsible for HP inflation but only partially
First,HSR is a turn based game which means its a numbers game,no matter how you diversify the way a unit is played,all that matters is the dmg they dealt/their support capability/sustainably. And for those who wants to bring up FGO because every time smthg is up with HSR gameplay its always compared with FGO; FGO is not a "combat game",its a purely a collector's game, there is barely a meta to pull for, no end game content and 99% of units are just sidegrades with extra gimmick means FGO is closer to a collection showcase than a live service game, ppl roll in FGO not bc meta,but bc there is no meta so they roll for whatever
2nd, For the relics compared to Genshin,i dont personally play the game but i heard a lot that Genshin signature relics are so much more impactful than HSR's signature relic sets,upwards of 20-30% compare to HSR's 5-10%. And because of that,a unit power budget is more in themselves than into relics.
3rd, back to HSR being a numbers game,that just it,there is a theoretical "optimal" way to play and build everything and thus the only thing matters is the unit's numbers. Unlike Genshin where numbers can partially be covered up by skill/experience. Additionally, because HSR only focus on combat,niche things like map exploration units dont have a role in the game so all that matters is how they performs in MoC/PF/Apoc
5th, to reiterate on "Powercreep only partially responsible for HP inflation", Hoyo is increase HP is also bc they been adding bosses that requires players interaction. Like players cant just brainlessly hit the boss and expect to kill it, now you'll have to pay attention to its mechanics and (sorrry if this scares you) READ the boss mechanics(like how in 3.0 a new boss with 9.8m total HP but it have 4 summons when it acts that deals 600k dmg to the boss when killed with each only have like 100-200k HP). Also this may sound absurd, but players arent expected to full clear end game contents, they are called "End Game contents" for a reason, only those who heavily invested their time to their units should be those who clear those contents and not your half assed build unit from 1.x clearing 2.x contents. To compare to FGO,its like the Super Recollections quest or 90++, only the top percent of accounts can clear those and get the extra rewards that is more like a bonus(like the different between 36 and 35 Stars in MoC is like 80 jades,thats like 1 extra day you have to log into the game)
Last,on the topic of power creep,its barely real, you say your Jingliu or Blade or Seele can barely clear MoC 12,but i ask you this,is clearing means finish in 2-3 cycles or do finish in 10 cycles cuz units from 1.x can still clears plenty fine as long as weakness are matched. Like "Help clearing" content isnt popular in EN community but in VN, its the most common form of content and people here have way worse accounts than most of you and the "Doctor" can still use those shitty garbage account to clear MoC/PF/AS. Which just means skill issue honestly
Im not defending HSR, it can definitely be better but the things rn arent that significant to worth talking this much about. Like (sorry if this offends you or anyone reading) these type of "Problem with HSR" are just exaggerating problems that is barely significant to the actual point they are talking
I have seen power creep and believe me its so much worse than HSR's,rn the game isnt bad and the power creep only became noticeable like a year or more after a unit is released which is plenty of time to use your favs and if you want to keep using them,pull for Eidolons on rerun banners, E2 DHIL still works fine these days and 2 eidolons is about the same cost as a new E0S1 unit
The whole idea of these kind of discussions honestly just come from how it feels to most players. Like, you don't need to be a genius theorycrafter to understand that seele and kafka dont clear end game modes as fast as they used to. Can you still clear? Yes. Should it take you a thousand times more effort to clear using those units over the newest toy hoyo is trying to sell? No.
It feels like shit, so people(like me) talk about it. Change can only happen if people do that.
Not sure what you mean fgo isn't comparable when fgo has more technically challenging boss fights which don't boil down to do higher damage and have more turn to turn decision making, like if you don't use meta support every cq can become demanding of game mechanic knowledge, that's literally reason why fgo difficult boss fights are remembered not cuz of their visual bcz their mechanics like Cernunos, Ort, Goetia, gawain etc. Like one of my favorites cq is taiga quest from Gil fest and pretty much anyone who played that event know what I am talking about when that quest is very much centered around turn to turn decision making without having much of dps check requirement
And again ok let's say fgo didn't exist we have R1999 for comparison which again makes it's content not be a damage check. Most of your gameplay revolves around picking right team based on enemy and merging and stacking right cards
But ok let's take that out and we take a game known for powercreep like E7 for example. E7 have a very hard cap on how much damage units they can do like Dark corvus an year 2 unit is still most damaging unit in the game (and he is below average in most game modes except 1) so even it's powercreep doesn't come in form of lol enemy has more hp, now beat it in 10 turns. The powercreep in E7 mostly exist in form of kit creep where new units have more versatile or new mechanics entirely unique to them and in fact it's one game where doing damage more than a certain point is useless since you only need certain damage threshold for pvp content so any excess damage is pointless and most high hp PvE content like expedition and rift aren't stuff game even expect you to do in one try or alone but chip down in multiple attempts so you would rather have a consistent team
@@fl2uryou'd be surprise by how much ppl just play,ignore boss mechanics,couldnt clear to then complain about power creep.
On matching weaknesses,1.x units can still comfortably clear current and future contents,just for example KafSwan can 1 cycle svarog with 0 eidolons and very relatable relics or how Jingliu can 4 cycles the new dinosaur boss
My point is people dont play the game and then proceed to complain,issues exist yes but in it current state it barely matters and exaggerating these issues also dont help
Also, harsh truth,game devs like Hoyo could not give less of a fuck about EN community,only CN opinions matters to them and is the only thing that can be used to be push for changes
@@i_dont_have_a_youtube_chan8584
1st,FGO end game content is like 1% if not less of the game's playtime. There is no meta units,you get Castoria and you basically cleared everything in the game,maybe Oberon if you want to do 90++ or doing min turn CQs. Every unit in FGO is viable bc in the contents that they dont,they'll be hard carried by Castoria anyways and so no point in power creep when there is no challenge and everything are just sidegrades and FGO is effectively a collector's showcase game
I cant talk for r1999 or e7 but does those game have skill expression?Like some timing elements or stuff or just absurd level of knowledge check or controlling rng or smthg of the same degree? Cuz technically you can just play HSR on an excel sheet cuz HSR is effectively pokemon but you only fight AI. HSR have little to none skill expression if you just do the thing the game said but a lot dont,they fail and complain
@@hoangnguyen0721
E7 is a pvp focused game so naturally it's live game mode revolves around team building (it basically goes like you select certain amount of unit, then your opponent gets to select certain amount of unit by guessing what kind of team your are trying to build), try to ban each other's problematic units and then engage in live combat. Some of it's game mode like draft arena literally just gives you semi-random fully geared teams (regardless if you have those units or not) and you can play pvp like a random pokemon showdown battle where for most part it's your decision making that matters.
If anything, if the dps isn’t 5x better than the last, it just gives you more time to save for who you really want.
It's stuff like this that makes me scared to pull in hsr. I'm F2p which means that every pull i earn is valuable and i a can't afford to waste at alk so when i see someone like Firecky who i like i think she's a good dps but wity Remembrance coming out i keep having the thoughy of another Dot situation happening
Best way to do it imo is to determine why you're playing. If you care about the characters/story/etc, then just go for who you like - while yeah you might struggle in end game, at least you're using someone you care about. If clearing [end game] content is important to you, then getting some of the newer units is definitely the better option.
I hope they increase more so my E2R1 Castorice will be worth investing
GI established itself in the right time and space and still has a pretty solid foundation to date due to the lack of direct competition in the open world ARPG space, especially for mobile. HSR and ZZZ to me are like the poor siblings of GI who are forced by their parents to perform just as well if not outshining GI with way lesser time (hopefully not resources as well) and worst of all, competing in highly saturated spaces in their respective genres. That's why both HSR and ZZZ feel more explicitly of the games trying to make players spend.
That being said, powercreeping will never be softened in a gacha game. Gachas are unlike conventional games, that's why we don't see regular balancing of the older stuff against the new. Regular balancing would be counterintuitive towards the very thing they are trying to sell, new characters and weapons. Not to staunch F2Ps, but to potential spenders and whales.
Even GI has also made the pressure to pull felt explicitly with Natlan. Sure, you can still choose not to pull for any Natlan members. The first difference immediately felt was the hassle of finding the right saurian in the wrong place to navigate extreme terrains. Then take a team of older characters, namely Inazuma and prior, to pick fights with the open world wayobs or legends and you'll experience a whole tougher and longer fight compared with the experience of having Natlan characters in the mix.
Character's kits getting bloated over time reminds me of FGO where over the years a newer character's single skill, without exaggeration, contains more efects than an early character's entire kit. The difference is that in FGO characters recieve skill buffs that can completely revamp them, upgrading the already existing effects and adding several new ones, which on many occasions made older characters relevant again and letting them shine in new ways. This is depressing because so far, except from that one extreme case with a certain dude called John Lee, mihoyo haven't done anything like that and are probably never planning to.
it's easier to build chars in hsr i dont know why
auto battle, easier to get relic materials, and the fact you can get support from someone stronger makes character building less tedious
AND we don't have to wait for specific days to level up traces!! It's my biggest complaint about building characters in Genshin.
You don't have to fun around the open world for mats and you can craft from anywhere in hsr
Yeah. That's why hp has been increased as an artificial difficulty spike. Because characters are so strong. That's why it happens.
I miss using my Jingliu and Blade :( let’s hope they will do something about this. Also this would make reruns profitable for them as well. There’s will be no point in pulling reruns at some point. Sad they put in all this money to make a lovable character only to sell it once or twice.
Character kits bloated is also a side effect of the game releasing slot of units meaning the meta evolves much faster than Genshin
Make me a single relic set in Star Fail comparable to Venerer.
Great video goat
"summon will have proper power budget".
Naaaah bro, stop the cap
We can hope at least 😂
Summon will make super break team obsolete. Mark my words.
Summons gonna have characters doing the job of a whole team
Personally I don't care that units get power crept in gachas. I think most people even expect it. However, I don't think they should balance enemies around said unit power creep. The whale who's one cycling today is still one cycling tomorrow with whatever comes next. However, likewise the f2p who went ham on a top tier unit one cycling today should still be doing similar tomorrow. They shouldn't suddenly need 3x the damage just because some shiny unit came out 6 months later that does 3x more damage.
Whales simply don't need the excuse to pull more units if the kit and character design are interesting. However, low spenders and f2p will simply start playing something else that values their time more. Suddenly not being able to clear your endgame efficiently because Mihoyo' is balancing their stuff around more and more broken units is just going to make you feel like all the time you invested in a once great team was wasted. Making broken units is not an issue, balancing around broken units is.
Honestly, my biggest worry going forward (as someone nearing Penacony) is if I'll be able to actually progress past that point. I've heard from friends how that part of the game is the account vibe check which bodes ill for me considering that I only have a few 5 stars to call upon.
Its kinda why I dislike this whole limited banner thing the game has, because it feels like a waste to summon constantly for duplicate characters when there are potentially even better options around the corner like Acheron or Adventurine. I'd like it if they had several 5stars per banner outside of the base game roster of 5 atars, because it'd make pulling more meaningful in my opinion. Plus, again, it sucks having to wait several months for reruns because gems aren't exactly cheap for F2P accounts like mine
I think youll be alright going through story! Just make sure you're not neglecting your character levels/traces/etc
I’m not convinced that HSR has a “bloated kits problem”
Lets compare the lasted HSR character to a 1.0 HSR character, Bronya
DMG% buff: Both Bronya and Sunday has it but Sunday last 1 turn longer
SP neutral: Both Sunday and Bronya has it if Bronya is E1
Crit dmg buff: Both Bronya and Sunday has it but Bronya can buff the whole team instead of only 1 person
Cleanse: Both Bronya and Sunday has it
100% action advance to 1 unit: Both Bronya and Sunday has it
Energy charge: Exclusive to Sunday
Crit rate buff: Exclusive to Sunday
ATK buff: Exclusive to Bronya
Can advance and buff summons: exclusive to Sunday
Can self advance and can advance other harmony: Exclusive to Bronya
Teamwide DEF and dmg buff: Exclusive to Bronya
As you can see, both of them has a lot of similar ability and Bronya has an almost equal amount of exclusive abilities that Sunday does, you can argue that Sunday’s ability is more potent but if Sunday’s kit is bloated, so would be Bronya, a 1.0 character.
It's time to raise the lvl cap to 90 😂
i feel like the video is starting from an anecdotal bias. on the point from genshin, the current abyss cycles haven't really been that hard since they soft reset the difficulty for 5.0. the end patch 4.x and 3.x abyss cycles were notoriously brutal/unforgiving for non-whale characters with non-meta characters. you can look back and find many people complaining about wenut abyss, consecrated beasts, etc. i would say the difference is those fights were either burst-heavy with short windows which highly favored burst dps (wenut) or just really mechanically involved fights that needed sustain or good dodging (consecrated) on top of high overall dps.
hsr has gone in different route with hp inflated bosses that have some vulnerability phase like with new apoc/moc clock boss but the hp is still a little too inflated and the mechanics to access the vulnerability phases are often too hard to do outside of specific teams
Yeah so I feel that is personal preference. I stopped playing genshin because of the fact that my old characters kept clearing end game. I had no motivation to pull new characters and it got boring. Like oh neat, I guess I could pull and level up someone all over again. But why would I when I beat everything anyways?
Some people like that I guess. I didn't. Story, aesthetics and gameplay styles are factors yes, but that only goes so far. At least with star rail they show stronger characters which is good incentive.
In addition, older characters can still beat end game (serval literally beats aps this month), but it takes work and smart investments. It was brain dead easy in genshin, but here I gotta use my brain. I don't spend a dime, and my clara or kafka team clears end game. It ain't easy, and I like that.
So idk, if people want seele to be as relevant as feixiao, idk what to tell them. I'd probably find the game boring if that were the case, but that's just me
The answer is no, characters kits will lore and more packed while the subsequent enemies will have hp in the billions by the mid 2025
I stopped watching 4 mins in, so pardon me if you do end up addressing it but wanted to comment while the thoughts fresh in my mind. When people purchase a character theirs several factors that go into consideration of getting that character and different people will weigh these factors on different levels of scale - those factors are
1) Appearance - Do they like the design or animations associated with the characters kit
2) Personality/Story relevance - Do they play a major role in the story or at least play a role that is enjoyable to see when they are on screen
3)Waifu/Husbando/ship baiting - Is the character for (You) or is the character part of a ship you endorse and you want to collect the pairing/collect the character because of the good feelings you have towards them
4) Gameplay. How strong or fun is the character to use (Theoretically you could design someone weak but who is just really fun to play).
Excluding collectors that just roll for everyone, Genshin has a significant advantage when it comes to players who weigh #4 more heavily.
While I agree that HSR characters do a lot, I think they *need* to do a lot due to the nature of it being a turn based game their kits would otherwise be uninteresting as 1.0 characters already explored the fundamental mechanics that HSR has. The game is already pretty simple, at least having abundant design of their kits makes them *feel* more fun and complex to use (or at least complexity by the standards of a gacha game).
I guess what i'm trying to build to is that Genshin benefits strongly from being a real time exploration game with some simple action combat. Chasca's motorcycle is *Fun* walking around with your character in Genshin is in of itself fun gameplay. So, Genshin doesn't need to power creep to sell and can do novel things like flying around in combat to make your character *feel* interesting and fun to play.
HSR gameplay is turn based, kit-creep is a necessity to making these characters feel more fun and *feel* more rewarding to use (setting up a triple turn in a row with Rappa feels great!). More importantly, this kit-creep is enabling more complex and interesting boss designs like the tv monkey friends as we are able to roll for tools to face them.
The raw numbers power creep (Fei/Acheron vs Seele) is unfortunate, I do think that older characters deserve to get an 'A8' trace that would either buff their raw number %'s or provide them with another new mechanic to match the kit-creep of new ones. But i personally endorse the kit-complexity increases and number of things every character is doing because having more complex kits will allow them to design more complex and fun enemies to fight.
Heck, Sunday not only power creeps but outright kit-creeps Bronya in a variety of ways but one of the most fun team comps with sunday is to use him with Bronya and Jin yuan so you can give Jin a bajillion turns (Jin Yuan goes->Sunday makes Jin go->Bronya makes sunday go->sunday makes jin go again).
Basically, I think you pointing out kit-creep as something bad is incorrect. In fact I hope the characters only get *more* complex as time goes on. The only thing thats bad about kit-creep is older characters with more simplistic kits not having the raw numbers to participate in end game, I don't think an older character *Deserves* to 3 star end game, but they do deserve to be able to clear it if built with proper relics and im noticing that people with older characters are struggling to clear and that's just wrong. A8 traces or raw number buffs are deserved so that they can continue to clear.
Ok, now that i got my thoughts organized i'll finish the video lmao.
Edit:
Ok now that i've finished it, something else I wanted to to touch on is how you mention that the discussion is being centered around HP inflation. That's because one of the solutions to power-creep is to just cap how high hp goes so that people can continue to clear no problem. The issue with this solution that you don't touch on (because the premise of your video is against kit-creep) is that new powerful characters will clear to easily - in fact the current meta characters can clear really easily, that means that Hoyo has to give up on one of the four pillars for character rolling - gameplay. HP Inflation allows more complex boss mechanics because we are then able to face the boss for a longer period of time instead of 0-1 cycling them.
Your proposed solution of capping power where it's currently at has the same problem, it ties the proverbial arm of Hoyo behind its back because it limits the complexity of foes that Hoyo can design lest enemy kits be to strong for us to face.
I think the real issue and the reason that people are upset is two fold
1) 0-1 cycling is a standard for many
2) People are used to receiving the rewards for 3 starring end game modes like MOC
I think that as a community #1 should be broken, that 3 starring should be the gold standard not 0-1 cycling. This means we can have more engaging and fun fights for our characters to be in. As for people being used to receiving the rewards of 3 starring end game, I think that Hoyo should either increase rewards via adding a MOC 13/14, a PF5, etc and lowering the gameplay difficulty of the existing levels or increase rewards by having MOC 10/PF 3/Apoc Shadow 3 provide the same amount of rewards that MOC12/PF4/Apoc Shadow 4 has been providing and for MOC12/others to give new rewards - maybe self modeling resign or other chase items - or yes even Jades if Hoyo doesn't want to be stingy about giving us an extra few hundred jades per end game rotation. I mentioned that people are not entitled to 3 starring end game, but they should be entitled to receiving the rewards that Hoyo has built an expectation of receiving with their current level of investment.
So, yea. It's a weird thing to me that Hoyo has allowed this betrayal of expectations via rewards to upset the community. It's not their fault that people like 0 cycling but it is their fault that people are not getting what they're used to.
I fully agree with you that some of the older characters need an extra trace or buff to keep them relevant, actually have a video discussing buffs on my channel.
I also agree that kit bloat isn't *inherently* bad, but I have to say that how hoyo is doing it is. Like, Sunday giving 20cr on whoever he skills is just unnecessary. There's nothing creative about "bronyas skill but better". If his kit instead was "choose between CD boost or CR boost when you use skill", then the same bloated kit is there, but now there's variety in how you play the character.
@@fl2ur I never claimed Kit-creep is currently more creative on the player side, just that it feels more fun and rewarding to play with. It feels nice that Sunday is providing that crit rate which creatively speaking was designed sadly with his E6 in mind to stack multiple times and give excess crit rate as crit damage. If you have an E6 Sunday that talent does feel more fun and becomes more player-facing creativity instead of just design creativity. I wish it was designed as his E1 (tbh i wish it was designed as his one of his A trace's because i don't like the concept of eidolons very much exactly because of something like how they designed Sundays talent to sync with a freaking E6).
I know I just said that Kit-creep isn't necessarily creative on player side but *technically* Sundays talent is creative player side (going for stacks vs. who to action advance in a duel carry line up)....but yea needs an E6 which ew.....
I guess i'm trying to say that Sundays crit rate talent isn't an example of bad kit bloat, rather its an example of bad eidolon design, if instead of one of his A traces being the min energy regen of 40, put that on the ultimate itself and make the trace current E6 it'd be rather good talent design (though perhaps 7-10% per stack so that he's not giving 60% crit rate at E0). Then i'd make his E6 turn it to 20% per stack (aka the current E6, increasing kit creativity to be player-facing without significantly downgrading his power)
That said, i do hope kit-creep reaches a point where there is more player centric creativity in how to use the kit rather than just the kit itself being more complex (again with the premise that more complex kit = more fun because it allows for better enemy design and more engaging gameplay even if that gameplay is currently in a non-creative state [All 2.X characters are more creative with their kit-creep than 1.X character, but that creativity currently isn't player side its just design side]).
if new character doesn't do 10 or more things at once, would player pull for the new character?
But the lack of depth in char abilities is what makes genshin so boring it feels bad when ur max clearing with a team u invested in an year ago and it feeling like u hit a stagnation point and this would be even worse in a game like hsr where u cant cope with exploration
Damn it u should’ve shown the Acheron ult at the end
I think they have made a few (or many, perspective pending) mistakes with 2.X balance they are trying to correct by outscaling it with 3.X. This actually caused the HP inflation, because the game actually got dramatically easier to clear the endgame content from 2.1 -> 2.5, and only started to get harder with 2.6 and now 2.7. There was briefly a discussion that endgame HSR was too easy before the HP inflation kicked in - your friend and you would not have had this conversation two months ago because your HSR experience would have matched his Genshin one. But why did they make those mistakes in the first place?
I think Hoyoverse wants supports to be what they are in HSR, not what they are in Genshin. Constantly having DPS be the main thing people pull results in different issues that Genshin consistently expressed, gameplay and monetarily. So they doubled down on making supports strong. This even paid out with Firefly\Ruan Mei combo, and Feixiao\Robin combo. The problem is, they went overboard, both because Bronya\Tingyun\Pela were already strong, and because they didn't know how support pulls would go after Genshin. There is a reason limited Harmony are devoid of sight in 1.X until 1.6. They tried to correct that with Acheron, but printed her E2 in fear so they could sell supports later. More Acheron-esque ideas probably await us without E2 corrections (spoiler: they definitely do), which helps control Honkai: Harmony Rail. Sustains are in a worse position secretly btw, because power creeping Aventurine is a terrifying prospect. HP inflation is one thing - the easiest power creep in the game is to release new units with 23,000 HP and make the enemies do 20k damage. That power creeps every single unit from 1.X and 2.X. And that's one of the few ways to power creep Aventurine. And he still has outs. So my guess is they will slowly work damage toward higher and higher marks, shield breaking\ignoring enemies, or start mass doing debuffs Aventurine can't resist. And we've seen this: they've already started on the debuffs he can't resist.
First of all, lower your voice about Rappa….
Secondly you’re totally right lol
все началось со светлячка, разработчики будто были одержимы ею и хотели сделать свою вайфу как можно сильнее вопреки здравому смыслу. ахерон сделали настолько сильной только потому что легендарный для хойо во всех смыслах персонаж не мог быть слабее какой-то девочки. и вот теперь, пытаясь забалансить бардак созданный светлячком выпустили монстра вроде воскресенье.
it was always powercreep you just cant make every dps deal double the damage the one before him dealt hsr powercreep is out of control
You have to understand no one wants to pull for characters that are ass. If every character does the same thing or is on the same power level, people will complain. If powercreep happens, people will complain as well. I think the only issue is HSR should release power increases in smaller increments but having a gacha game with no powercreep is impossible because no one would want to pull for those characters. And just in general making kits that are creative while also maintaining their power level to be the same as everyone else’s is just extremely difficult to do. There’s a reason why Genshin chara kits are bland. It’s because the elemental reactions are more important than the character themselves. I’m fine with how HSR does things because I can still clear things with my DoT team or Jingliu/Himeko, etc but im still getting new, fun and creative kits with every new character. Fugue is someone I’m skipping even though I love her design because she’s quite frankly boring. Nothing special or unique about her kit & she doesn’t seem particularly strong either. So while yes I think powercreep and HP inflation definitely exists, I don’t think it’s a major issue as people make it out to be if you know and understand the mechanics of the game.
Using Genshin as an example of how not to power creep loses you some credibility. Genshin’s powercreep is not as noticeable but it’s there. Also, Genshin didn’t need to create stronger units because there’s limited opportunities to do actual combat with them 😅
HP inflation is overstated. Nobody is forced to max star anything or pull for anyone. We get enough pulls per patch to get a 5 star completely f2p, and if you’re spending your jades wisely, you’ll keep up with the meta.
P.S don’t skip harmony units mmmkay 😂
8:25 there are no other reasons to pull for characters except strength.
Never was and never will be.
And dont say ' but genshin has a reason' no it f doesnt.
Characters in genshin are just skins at this point and most hsr players wont touch this game with a ten-foot pole. Players of hsr and gi are different and games are different. Bigger power creep in hsr for now isnt a problem for those who get meta characters. Its only a problem for those who go 'meeemememe I wanna use my Blade e0s0, what do you mean he will dispatch them in 8 cycles? I want 0!'
cant have both. You either have a progression in the game or you just stuck in the endless limbo of game stagnating and rotting out like genshin where old players leave non stop. Because REMEMBER, in genshin, old rusty chars being relevant comes with a cost of literally NO challenge and nothing changing in the game. When in hsr you get new modes/bosses/etc almost every other patch. Jenshin got ONE new mode in 5 years. Its that stupid.
Now wait until characters can deal damage equal to the enemies HP (We will be doomed)