My only ONLY problem with Lucky Charms and Bumblebee is BAD WRITING and lack of understanding. As a Black women, I understand how representing is so important but not all representing is good representation. The only thing I want from CRWBY is more development of the LGBTQ+ and better writing
Right? We are like 8 seasons into the show and the Bumblebee relationship has received almost no treatment at all and it's something we know they've been aware of since like what, season 2?
Yeahhh, RWBY as a series is very.. uhhh, On the spot. They should be writing and planning ahead of time, but RWBY feels like it's just improv after improv, So much improv to the point where RWBY currently makes barely any sense from when you look at where it started out.
This is by far the kindest and most constructive perspective on what happened that I have ever heard. Liked it in the season 7 review and liked it here. Well done and I hope videos and posts like this help CRWBY to avoid this in future.
@@asuna5701 the sad part is every time I come across people talking about this outside this channel's comments, they're portraying Unicorn's intent as calling CRWBY bigots.
I didn't see any romantic relationship between Qrow and Clover, all i saw was a bromance. I think people confused the banter between the two as flirting.
Toxic masculinity can kick a brick. Caring about and helping your male friends and accepting help when you need it normal and healthy. I hate that our society looks down on men who are open with their feelings.
@@handhelder823 Sorry for the late reply. Toxic masculinity is used to describe how certain masculine traits such as stoicism and a focus on showing dominant strength over emotion can cause harm to those who express it and those around them. And yes, there is such a thing as toxic femininity too. Everything can be toxic when taken to a radical extreme. The key is to be able to balance masculine and feminine traits in a way that works for you - regardless of what you identify as. It's okay to show emotions and be vulnerable, but it's also important to show strength and be able to shoulder burdens when needed. Figuring out when to show strength or emotion can be tricky. But finding balance can lead to a healthier and happier life. Hope this helps. :)
When I think about the dynamic of Ruby and Qrow I am reminded of a quote from Uncle Iroh "if you look for the light, you will often find it but if you look for the dark, it is all you will see".
@@TheSkyrider27 Agreed. My point was just how despite Korra's drop in quality from the original, and especially in season 2 where it was at it's worst, they still couldn't mess up Iroh. He is an untouchable character.
Never shipped these two, but I'm bisexual, and when I saw how the CRWBY posted about it and noticed the writing between them, I became understandably pissed off about their sudden oblivion to the message of representation they portrayed to fans.
I feel you as someone who is also bisexual, I never saw them as romantic. I mean people even think a friendly wink or a comforting hug is considered shipping. Also, I always hated that the rwby market staff keeps ship baiting to their customers to buy their products, when there are so many others ways to market/adversite their product.
@@justdb4 honestly, as someone who watched through the series after the fact and didn't have to wait for the episodes to come out... I didn't even have time to decide if I thought they'd be a good romantic pair or not. I think that even if they were gonna kill off Clover, they didn't keep him around long enough for that to matter based on his own merits. Clover's death mostly matters in terms of what it does to Qrow emotionally. which is... I mean, it's alright, I guess, but it makes it seem like they're not willing to take risks by killing anyone who is longer established, and more important for their own reasons. especially because they do this in the same volume where they brought back Penny. if they'd saved his death for at least a volume later... and also if they hadn't made Qrow team up with friggin Tyrian, like, _that_ decision was egregiously dumb on all counts, and it really screws up that whole piece of the show for me because I just can't turn my brain off quite that much. but for what it's worth, I think that what really makes them read as romantic isn't the hugs or winking or whatever... it's that whenever it happens, Qrow is always making this like "oh... feelings" kinda face, and for a baseline less expressive character, it kind of breaks his largely apathetic trend. it reads as a bigger deal that he's reacting to someone this way. and Qrow already has a narrative that's based around isolation and loneliness, which will resonate with a lot of LGBT people who didn't get to date until way later in life because they had to wait til they felt safe enough to come out first. like, that's not meant to be a definitive gotcha or anything, but it is sort of like... the cherry on top, for the people who got drawn in. even if you were just an awkward person who didn't have a lot of friends and you watched this, seeing the result of this volume would be really hurtful to you. I think there is some merit to thinking that the people who could relate to this type of story didn't really deserve to have their investment blow up in their face. and the real nail in the coffin, to me, is that the CRWBY had various members hinting at stuff in their social media posts... which I didn't even know about til pretty recently. if you take CRWBY as a monolith (which I don't, but some might), then the decision to kill off Clover in conjunction with all that posting? kinda makes it seem like the ambiguity lets them be all "it was platonic all along" but only when people end up mad at them. like a "schrodinger's gay" situation, where he's only gay if everyone's cool with it. I understand the nuances that were actually at play, but I can see how someone would get that surface reading off of the situation.
I love how Qrow and Clover just ignored that Tyrian, a crazed psychotic killer with a high body count who Clover was ordered to transport, was not only free but had his weapons and was attacking them. Like WTF, why were they fighting eachother instead of Tyrian? Why didn't either of them say "Hey let's finish this after the political assassin is back in custody"?
As a gay man myself, I have a straight best friend. He's like a brother to me and I would die for him/if anything happened to him. We're just friends, nothing more. I saw LC as a parallel of our relationship. We both make slightly snarky comments at each other, make little flirty jokes sometimes, we have each other's backs, etc. I was basically Qrow to his Clover. He gave me advice when I felt down, stuck by me when I was being a straight up depressing and pessimistic prick, and lifted my spirits overall. And he was the first person I came out to, and he accepted me because it was a human thing. When I see people bashing CRWBY because they were "supposed to be a gay ship", it breaks my heart. I'm upset that people were angry at this because two dudes onscreen who have a healthy relationship = "they MUST fuck". As if the very concept of friendship between two men is dead. In highschool, people kept accusing us of being "fuck buddies" and boyfriends. A former (let me emphasize: FORMER) friend of ours drew fucking YAOI of us one time. We couldn't hang out together because people would gawk and spread rumors that we fucked. The more I see this trope in fandoms, the more it pisses me off. Yes, representation of mlm romance is needed, but so is friendships of men that break the boundaries of toxic masculinity that demand men not interact with each other in certain ways, lest they be branded as the dreaded homosexual. There's nothing wrong with two men being friends. It's the angry rabid shippers of the fandom that take it WAY too far and make it a toxic subject. Overall, I enjoyed it as a platonic friendship and saw it more like my personal relationship with my bff, than I did as a romantic one. It sucks that Clover died, but that's a story choice that the writers made for a reason. I don't believe they need "manuals" on how to write, because it's their story. I do believe that they should be able to write whatever they want without angry fans biting at their heels and demanding their obedience to the fandom. I love representation, but not when it's the product of harassment and toxicity directed at the writers. It should come naturally, without strings attached.
honestly tho. i'm all for mlm representation but i hate the idea that two men can't just be friends. i really feel for CRWBY, they really didn't deserve the backlash they got from this.
I'm so glad someone said it, because I was about to make this comment myself. Representation is important and all but at what cost? I'll admit that I am a straight male, which some people have tried to use as an argument point to discredit my opinion, but I am black so I know what it's like to want more representation. The issue is that I don't want to be catered to. And if Crow and Clover became a thing it wouldve seemed more like tokenism than an actual earned and built relationship. People are not allowed to just be friends, its like any level of care or affection must have romantic inclinations. I personally still don't like the bumblebee ship. I don't have a problem with a lesbian relationship in the show, I have an issue with the lack of build up it got. People who were so desperate to see the ship started seeing things that weren't there as a way to try and prove and validate it, even if it meant bringing up the most miniscule animation choices (like crow putting his hand on his hip). They were great friends who went through a lot together, but that doesnt equate to love and romance. I didnt see any real romantic chemistry whatsoever until volume 7 (maybe even later vol. 6) and by that point it felt like pandering. The reason i bring that up is because it felt like people were starting to do that with crow and clover. Its really sad, because the second I saw them getting along, I instantly thought, oh no people are going to ship them and theyre going to try and randomly make a gay couple cannon again without proper writing. And like you said, why can't guys be good friends without them being gay? Its toxic that that's just the automatic assumption. Theres nothing wrong with being gay, but theres also nothing gay about guys just being good close friends either. And ill ellaborate, I'm not saying that theres needs to be writing for ship to be gay. Like Jaunes sister's relationshion was a really nice inxlusion. I'm saying id like the writing to at least make the eventual relationship seem plausible by showing chemistry and acual romantic interest. Because a relationship with minimal buildup is poor writing, and if its for a minority group it just seems like tokenism "we made it gay/interracial/etc... For the sake of it being that way" and while representation is important, I feel like proper representation is more helpful than being there just for the sake of being there.
@@tigerfalco I agree 100%. And even as a bb shipper, i won't be entirely satisfied with it until it gets a better build up. That truck scene where they talked about what happened on that mountain when they killed Adam was great and i want more of that. I want it slow, well written, and have a fantastic reveal. A simple "im gay for you" kinda throws that out the window. Without proper buildup it comes off as dry. Relationships in shows need a good buildup before they become official. Gay or straight, it's the case with all well written romances. Lucky charms was good, and i probably woulda shipped it if it didn't directly parallel me and my best friend who i consider a brother. But one season wouldn't be enough for something like that. It took 7 seasons til Renora became official, so i believe time should also be a factor.
I really think CRWBY “riding the fence”, so to speak, is where the issue lies. As a black gay man, I of course would love more representation, but i also agree that Guys should be able to just be friends. There isn’t any canon gay characters in the show but I didn’t realize that until vol 7 with the introduction of Clover. Upon seeing his interaction with Qrow, I admittedly immediately wanted them to eventually become a canon couple. However, if outwardly stated that they were just friends in show, that would’ve also been perfectly ok because guys can indeed be just really good friends in a healthy platonic relationship and nothing more. But for them to not only try to pander to both sides by not at least confirming in show where their relationship stood and leaving it to audience interpretation, but to also kill off the sole male potentially gay character (in the WORST fight ever in the show), it personally triggered the big red “Bury Your Gays” flag and pissed me off. And now knowing that the pilot on the cargo ship transporting Weiss was originally supposed to be gay AND die leads me to think that Clover was supposed to be gay but because of his death flag, they didn’t want to regress back to what prevented them adding a gay character before and fulfilling the “Bury Your Gays” trope as their deaths were planned out and canon. But now that’s 2 for 2: Two characters who were supposed to be gay and got killed off. I really hope you guys understand my frustration.
@@Stphndotexe there are currently 3 gay people and one trans person in RWBY (Ilia, Saphron, and Terra are gay and May is trans). Clover was never confirmed to ever be a potential gay character. He was just good friends with Qrow, and it was stated. Multiple times. Nothing "bury your gays" about that. Pilot boy was going to be gay and mention he had a bf back home, but they decided against it because they didn't want to kill off their first gay character. So they wouldn't pull that string with Clover either. Again, the interpretation of Clover being gay was taken too far. That's why this whole debacle exists, because people believed fanon more than canon. I understand your frustration, but overall, it's a character who was never stated to be gay or have romantic feelings with Qrow. It was a ship that was taken too seriously. It suck that he died, sure, but it was never intended to be this controversial.
I think the problem was that we have a basis for bromance in the show already: Ren and Jaune, and Sun and Neptune. From the first interaction between them you can see its a bromance, and not a lot more in that time. Sun and Neptune know each other for a long time and make a lot of jokes (and their supposed romance interests in volume 2 do help define this is not exactly romantic), they are still kept as a close pair (mostly. Apart from that one time sun abandons them for blake for a whole volume or two). Jaune and Ren are the same as Sun and Neptune: can be seen having their moments, but have other romantic interests that point that this pairing isnt going to be explored at that time (if at all, in this case. Which I like because renora is adorable and I love them). Even Jaune and Nora can be said to be a bromance, with Nora being Jaune's wingwoman in volume 3 multiple times. It was clear they had different routes and this was a building block in their character. Another person to bounce off of for development of both of them. But here it wasnt that. They were given opposing semblences as a matching pair, had flirty remarks and had clover show off a few times with flips and winks that werent necessary for a bromance. Qrow was still vulnerable from trying to quit alcohol and developing as more then "drunkle does drink and then fights and is awesome" type thing (he is much more then that but you get me, I hope). Qrow was vulnerable and Clover was there for him, being nice and being a balancing act for his downs, like blake and yang do (whether they are romantic or not I aint getting into it this isnt the comment for that). Opposing colors (black and white) with a main color that they both have (red, one a shade brighter then the other one) catches your eye and makes you go "hey thats.. odd. They almost look like a married couple, bantering like that". And then you realise they do look like that and the unintended ship sails. The big problem is that their bromance was put on a full blast because of clover dying at the end of the season which made it look less like normal bromance but more like "tender adults being nice and honest and sharing emotions to the point of vulnerability, while being flirtatious, like a couple would". Their opposite ends fit nicely in a way that makes people doubt the nature of the relationship.
I personally don't think that Qrow's alcohol recovery was quickly fixed, I just think it was a beginning of a start for him. But I do believe yang's PTSD arc was rushed. You don't have to have things in your face to represent it. But the few times she had shakey hands hindered her in no way. Yang's flashback was the only indication that it hindered her in some way. She never struggled at all after that really, internally or externally. To clarify, I don't mean she should grovel and crumble or anything but even those that tend to push past their trauma as a way of coping have a conflict, with themselves or those around them, in big ways and/or in small ways. Like with me for instance, I got stung by a wasp when I was really young and REALLY struggle with them and bees. I can still function even when passing one although I tense up a bit. I start to panic a bit when I hear buzzing, even when it just a fly and avoid going out in th e spring and honestly avoid flowers and thick patches of grass. These are things I struggle with but I move past, I conduct my life where I can coexist with it. Although I don't show these issues to people and sometimes do end up near flowers since they ARE EVEYWHERE IN MY TOWN, I still struggle. People wouldn't know I have issues with these things unless I told them. Yang can still have confidence and be happy and move past what happened while showing signs, especially when her's was still fresh and they wanted to portray that it had an impact. I don't think the issue is that the impact seemed small but that it was portrayed as if and SHE made it come across as if didn't matter at all. They were building it up, but really didn't cause it was never mentioned or thought about till they met him or when Blake and her held hands in the barn, and it ultimately ended with her treating it like just another fight that didn't matter and it felt like a bad joke. Again she doesnt have to grovel or cry but at least some emotion like hesitation, excess anger but then calming down remembering what her dad said, any emotion other than, I don't care about you dude cause we gotta take care of something bigger than this. Personal character struggles can be just as important or great, sometimes even more so than the actual plot. Just shaking a bit, a small amount of times does nothing and honestly came off as her just needing to get back to form, not as still struggling. And when she interacted with the reason for her trauma, with no build up to this, she didn't seem to care at all. It was built up more for Blake's meeting with him again. Her arm almost and potentially getting torn off again results in an I don't care state from her. And only when he states himself about their previous encounter does she actually seem like she cared and her hand shook a bit till blake held her hand. That's not how people generally respond to their trauma. You don't suddenly start reacting cause someone reminded you it happened when you are right there. It felt like an excuse for yang and Blake to hold hands and "further" their relationship. It didnt feel earned. I'm just baffled because although people do act differently, it was portrayed as something that you can just get over but as soon as the person who affected you reminds you that it happened then you suddenly remember and are actually afraid and then go back to not really caring. It felt half baked and like they didn't know how to deal with the subject Sorry this is long. Your video was really nice and I'm glad you were open and rational. I personally don't think yang and Blake is all that well written of a pairing and kinda think Blake and Weiss would have been a better written couple or her and sun. But I think Qrow and Clover would have been a cute couple but I had a FEELING clover was gonna die or something so I didn't get too attached to him. I feel like they are trying to represent different people and themes without ACTUALLY delving into them or exploring them. and for some of those it's a little too late to make it as believable as they could have been which is how I feel about bumblebee. There was potential but the waited too long to start fleshing it out. A few moments of them thinking of each other MIGHT have made it a bit more.....palatable but something, you know. Also yay WINX CLUB
As a ethnic, sexual, and neurological minority I.... Kind of stopped caring about rep? Like, I do and I don’t? I have a complicated opinion on it (basically, I think it’s important for social progress, but it’s not why I watch shows and I look for things deeper than just surface level representation (emotional investment, interesting ideas, competent structure). I’m not saying this to diminish the feelings of those offended by fumbled and/or offensive representation, I’m just stating my stance to preface that my issues with Clover’s death don’t have to deal with representation since my recent brushes with death have showed my that the reaper doesn’t give a damn who you are, my issue has to do with the stupidity of the encounter. However, as a mixed race black bisexual man with Aspergers, I do think that this is still an important video to watch about representation for those who question why others hold it in high regard.
I love this comment. It's real, it feels great, and I totally understand your point of view. My question is did this video help? Did it answer any questions? Are there any you still have? I'm asking cuz... I'm usually the minority in any given group and I'm trying to learn to communicate why these things matter when people have questions.
Love what you said-but when you said “mixed race black” I-as a black person-was like, “you can just say black we know you have other stuff too. We all do.” XD Besides my quick chuckle at that. I really do love what you said about the whole “issue”. ❤️❤️
@@PharaohOfTheDamned If it helps, a simple way I found to explain why represntation matters is like this: "Media reflects amd shapes society. When media shows minorities as a normal everyday things that exist, it helps people treat them as a normal everyday thing that exists."
For what it's Worth, I don't think clover's death was done with his sexuality in mind - rather, I think it would've been done regardless of wether or not Lucky Charms is meant to be implied. Clover dying was fuel for Qrow's subplot. the whole point is to give Qrow hope that he can have a relationship where he doesn't fear for hurting them with his semblance - and then rip it away from him. I didn't read the interactions between Qrow and Clover as romantic - at least, not yet. I did see the romantic cues and hints the first time around (which i think is progress as a straight dude) but it felt more like romance is something that would've developed in another season or two. in volume 7, its a pure bromance. But, that's just my takeaway.
@Metsarebuff 22 No, it wasn’t. Great voice acting is never worth gaybaiting and violently killing off one of your only mlm characters. It was not needed, you could’ve given them a rivalry that actually made sense. Like, maybe he was the one that killed Summer. Or maybe he killed Glynda and that’s why we haven’t seen her in so long. Or maybe their rivalry can come from the fact that Qrow is a Huntsman and Tyrian is *literally a serial killer and escaped convict already*.
@Metsarebuff 22 No, he was definitely something more. The creators themselves have directly encouraged this line of thinking multiple times, even hanging fan art of it on their walls. If they weren’t intended to be romantic, and Clover wasn’t intended to be mlm, then Rooster Teeth Sure fucking failed at that given how many mlm people saw him and were like “oh there’s def something there.” Qrow’s development didn’t really need “expanding”. It was going fine to begin with until they derailed it randomly with no actual buildup. Fuck you, jackass. “Hey he killed one of the only actual minority characters in the cast but he said a cool line so it’s okay, representation and feelings of the gay and bi men that feel exploited and baited be damned”.
I personally saw them as a bromance, but I could see the romantic implications. As for Clover being resurrected, I don't think thats going to happen, what with the whole reason Salem became who she is by trying to cheat death, so I doubt the staff would bring anybody back. Also why did no one ever call the ship Qrover? It's a perfectly good pun right there but nobody ever took it.
I'm aro ace and I was picking up on Lucky Charms. However being aware of Qrow's semblance and general story patterns and tropes knew whatever happened with Clover was going to end in tears and probable betrayal one way or another.
Honestly, it could have been platonic or romantic to me., although I was rooting for the latter They did handle it poorly and i'm glad you articulated the problems people had with it. It isn't as simple as a ship people liked was cut off. I think they will learn from it and be more careful in the future, as I don't think anyone with half a brain genuinely believes Rooster Teeth is a homophobic company. Unfortunately, LGBT people in media have an inherent political aspect in their existence (which is stupid) to both the left and right, and need to be handled in certain ways. I hate that this is the case, I'm a gay guy and long for the days when I don't have to deal with people asking for proof of a gay characters sexuality early in the story, but then complaining when they do get it as pandering and call you an SJW if you point out the idiocy in this. Then there are those people who take any perceived slight out of proportion, which I am glad you did not do even if this did frustrate you, by screaming and abusing people, most of the time people who had no choice in the matter. I loved the LGBT representation so far because it didn't make a big deal out of it at all, any scene could have been done exactly the same with straight characters. It's ridiculous that our mere appearance in media is political, and I hope that one day none of these issues will exist. This problem was most likely caused by poor communication and handling, which does happen. I think the Oscar scene where he punched Neo was meant to be much more sudden, but due to the hallway design, it was animated as a little ridiculous, a good example of how sometimes the different areas of a company or group are not completely autonomous. Sometimes these things happen, the important thing is that CRWBY learn from it, and that people don't turn in morons and start abusing people for what was almost certainly an honest mistake. I also feel the need to say that this didn't bother me that much when it occurred, and while I do think it was a mistake on CRWBYs part, it doesn't make me that angry. However, I do entirely understand the frustrations people have with it
You know what would really be amazing? Two guys. Both are LGBT They *don't* hook up and are just platonic. Nobody makes a fuss about it. That's an entirely plausible scenario in real life, and yet in fiction, LGBT are flanderized to the point that their sexuality is the only part of their personality that exists. *By the people who claim to stand up for them.* I dislike representation because I don't think it actually represents anything other than hubris, a lack of self awareness, and anything but real human beings. Ironically, the most accurate representation of a gay person ever devised is the way in which straight people are presented. Because their orientation isn't blown out of proportion as a defining attribute of their character. I can understand what it's like to be excluded and discriminated against. I had this in my own life despite not standing out at all in terms of sexuality or race relative to my surroundings. This gave me this bizarre sense of entitlement. I wanted everyone else to change in order to suit me. Completely ignoring whether or not what I demanded was valid, it's nevertheless clear to me that a large part of my inability to fit in came from my own unwillingness to understand the situation and my own insistence of separating myself from other people as I increasingly began to identify with my isolation. The hard fact that I was unwilling to accept, was that there are ways of being that are genuinely unusual and difficult for the majority to embrace. One way or another, LGBT people are always going to stand out and be different, as they sometimes enjoy presenting themselves as being. But by that same token, they will always be treated differently. There's no getting around it. I will always be strange, but I can always make a better effort to adapt and not self isolate by being in too strongly to my differences. I will never be a conformist either. But my connection to other people has made me understand that there are sacrifices to my own individuality worth making in order to be apart of a group and with people I value.
I will say part of that whole “lesbians are more acceptable because straight guys can fetishize it.” Thing also comes from how many people I see and in my friends group who are mostly straight or bi males, sees it. When Owl house and She Ra and steven Universe had lesbians it was trumpets time. Doesn’t matter if poison Ivy was cheating on Kite man cause Yes my queens are kissing sort of deal. But m/m pairings in kids and teen cartoons? Until I asked I didn’t know about Kipo and the wonder beats having one. The one in steven universe is drowned out by all the lesbian space rocks talk despite the aliens having no actual gender. And yeah they are just used as background characters for being some other side character’s fathers. Live action does have more I think but I never actually see those celebrated either. That sort of thing is why when stuff like Bumblebee is confirmed and becomes big trending news in the animation community some get soured cause the best guys got to see other guys that is explicitly gay with actual characters in many episodes is Shiro from Voltron.....now I feel like I gotta listen to “kurts turn” from glee for some reason
And Keep in mind for Kipo, Benson's LI was a side character who only got to shine in the third and final season of the show. Benson was great though. And Shiro's oh lord...there is a Reason why the pairing was only talked about NEGATIVELY and why the pairing is so unpopular...granted, when you sideline an MC and pair him with a minor chara who was not named, has no interaction, and wasn't even the original husband, yeah you're not gonna get much positive response.
I think the lack of mlm has something to do with the ideas of traditional masculinity. Men are looked down on for having feelings, having empathy, and caring for the people around them, whether they're gay or straight. So when a show wants to portray a mlm couple, it gets pushed under the rug. Though it is interesting to think about: while shows themselves can sometimes lack in mlm, fandom culture is usually the one to really create and prop them up, which is why I think people think mlm is a lot prevalent than it actually is.
My issue with Bumblebee isn't at all that it exists it's that it seemingly from my perspective came out of nowhere. They had nearly 2 entire chapters where Blake and Sun seemed to be starting something even writing him to meet her parents and having him accepted by them and then suddenly next chapter essentially pretend none of the build up happened and now she's gay. Basically it just came across as sudden and confusing.
I don't think it came out of nowhere, but they should have focused on that instead of trying to go the Sun x Blake route. Sun can still be Blake's friend, but they needed to clarify that, and maybe do something different with Sun as a character, instead of a love interest focused on Blake for no good reason.
right ? their ( blake and yang ) relationship was sisterly and filled with friendly bonding that is normal between girls , a couple of hundreds of toxic shippers later , they're gay
It did come out of nowhere. Don't ever listen to pathetic BB fans lol. "Uh actually in V1 they looked at eachother for 1.2 seconds and they obviously had marry eye's". Wasn't planned.. Blacksun was.. then RT saw the OCEAN of fans backing Yang and Blake as a ship because this disgusting fanbases LOVES lesbian ships.
Honestly, bisexual transgirl here, and I think that the criticism that sapphic pairings are more readily accepted- *in media representation* -is entirely fair. I don't think it's healthy to come to conclusions like "gay women are worse off than gay men". Gay women and gay men deal with different forms of marginalization, just like trans men and trans women, and it trivializes the complex intersectional nature of homophobia to try to compare oppressions and conclude that one is "lesser". I love seeing lesbians in my cartoons, but I don't think we can reasonably deny that they are a lot more common than gay guy couples. We have, what, Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts? Mr. Ratburn in Arthur? Two side characters in She-Ra? For sapphic couples, I'm thinking of Owl House, LoK, Steven Universe, She-Ra, Batman TAS, My Little Pony... lots of high-profile lesbians or "as lesbian as the censors allow". Outside cartoons, Buffy the Vampire Slayer featured multiple lesbian characters, but the only gay guy is a minor character whose gayness is mostly a joke who dies in Season 3. Gay guys *do* clearly have more trouble getting represented. I'm glad lesbians get so much rep, but let's not pretend that the Male Gaze, and toxic masculine gay panic, haven't both played parts in that. (To be clear, I'm using "lesbian" as a synonym for "sapphic" here, not specifically to refer solely to exclusive lesbians. It's a spectrum and sometimes words are more adjective than noun.)
Seven months later, I do want to make one clarification: Lesbian women obviously face intersecting forms of oppression that gay men don't face. That said, I don't think it's healthy to compare like that. They face different problems.
I do like the ship of Bumblebee (yes I know its not the topic of the video), but I feel like it was not an organic relationship from the start. When I first saw Yang helping out Blake in Volume 2, I viewed as them being friends looking out for each other and Yang playing up to be the older sister to the Team Rwby. Yang doesn't really show interest in Blake (in my opinion) and starts to dislike her from volume 4 to volume 6 due to the fact that she left her when she at her most vulnerable just like her mother did. Blake tries to redeem herself to Yang is actually really good since she wants to prove that she won't run away again in Volume 6. Then at the end of their fight with Adam, where they hug each other out was to more accept the fact that they both gotta over their traumas from Adam (Blake not running away and Yang getting over her PTSD or so) as friends. Also talking about Clover, I felt he was more of what Qrow used to be when he worked under Ozpin and that they can get along as friends since they know how it is to serve under someone.
I mean, one could note the vehemence of Yang's response compared against Ruby or Weiss to be an indicator that the feelings she had for Blake were deeper than those that Ruby or Weiss had for Blake. It's not that she disliked her, but she felt the most betrayed because Blake meant the most to her. Unless you're taking her repeated statements that she *TOTALLY* doesn't care about Blake leaving at face value, it's pretty clear that what Yang is displaying isn't dislike, it's pain at losing someone she loves. Of course, this also ignores that the lyrics of Red Like Roses Part 1 cast Blake as the Beast who descends from shadows, while Yang is the Yellow Beauty that burns gold. So before the show even started, there were aspects of it that foreshadowed a romantic pairing between the characters of Blake and Yang, so I don't think there's anything inorganic about it.
@Andrew Gray I'm amazed that people read Blake kidding Sun chastely on the cheek as the beginning of something rather than the end. And I'm not sure how one can read Beauty and the Beast as not romantic, but it takes all kinds.
I've loved qrow ever since we met him, from volume 3 onward I thought I would never see him again. I love that we continued to grow, the relationship they made between qrow and clover (romance or not) was amazing and it shew a grow on a character just from when they interacted. Comparing it to how he interacted in volume 2 and 3 with people. Keeping to himself, finally opening up to someone, and just as they show in the final episode "the fear of growling close to someone" I think this also relates to qrows story as a whole, team STRQ as an example and then clover. Showing that he struggles to grow close to people because it always ends terribly. I am honestly most interested in how they will take his arc as I still love his character and will. I just hope crwby don't screw him over. Also 22:34 is a big mood
And that's the question that is ignored. At some point U.O.W states serveral things people argue against rwbys representation. One of those is good writing. I've said I enjoyed saffron and terracotta. They felt natural and played their role in the plot. Ilia honestly is tokenism especially given her whole backstory is in Atlas but they dump her cause 1) they screwed up the faunus discrimination plot for a rich vs poor arc 2) her voice actress cost to much. Lucky charms is never a confirmed ship. At all. So this turns into a pointless video. We don't see romance and well clover is dead in one of the dumbest fights in all of rwby. Seriously how anyone tries to justify tyrian qrow vs clover is retarded.
@@AnimeIsArt21 i agree. I know Qrow was pushed up against a wall, and he may not be the goodest of do-gooders, but even he wouldn't stoop as low as to team up with Tyrian (someone he not only has a grudge with, but was fighting earlier in the same volume WITH Clover), especially when he knows Tyrian is the bigger threat and needs to be taken care of. As a seasoned Huntsman he should've had that ingrained in him so much it didnt matter if it was a 3 way free for all.
@@jasonjason9270 ur simple ass reply is stupid. We were discussing the quality of representation and inserting LGBT characters at a higher standard so that you can be proud of them. But you clearly are happy w any representation even if its shit but act as if it's good.
@@AnimeIsArt21 You clearly don't know how to make a compelling argument without insulting people. Why don't you take some time and try again when you're ready to engage in a mature and respectful discussion?
As a writer (I Native American, Lakota. I am also Bisexual and suffer from mental illness)... This is one reason why I hesitate to really talk or publish my material. I completely understand the desire from representation and cool characters doing great things. Etc. I fear, that I would make mistakes. Cause honestly. Characters die, and it's because of the world they have been born in And other characters are. Complex I don't want backlash, because I already get judgement for my race, gender, orientation and mental illness So I keep my project between myself, my siblings and my best friend
At this point, I not watching for the romance, it's not what I signed up for, I signed up for a badass girl with a sniper scythe and rose petal powers, when they introduced qrow and seeing his weapon I full I did get attached, and wanted good stuff to happen for him. But when they introduced clover I was kinda like either they become really good friends or maybe date. But like I said I didnt sign up for romance so it wasnt a priority. What I take from this, I'm upset to see a good character go. He could've have offered more to the show, I would have liked to see his and qrow's sembalance explained and used in more full. (Also thank fucking shits they gave us a qrow scythe fight but at what cost?)
As a bisexual, my only gripe with this kinda stuff is when representation is done to fill a sort of "minority quota." Like, I wanna feel like my sexuality being represented does more than just result in a bunch of straight guys in a room clinking champagne glasses saying, "Congratulations gentlemen, we've fixed homophobia!" For example, I feel like Ilia was a good example of representation. Her being bi wasn't just her character, it was part of it. Jaun's sister on the other just felt like CRWBY going, "Hey guys! Look!! A gay!" Even if that may have not been their intent, that's certainly how it came across. Likewise, I'm not a huge fan of retroactively making a character LGBT for the sake representation. Feels a lot more pandering that way.
I agree with this actually Ilia was perfect example of getting proper representation,Im not gay or bi myself but Illia was a character I genuinely liked. While on the other hand jaune's sister was just that "hey guys look lesbians." Thats how yang and blake are currently as well. I am pretty sure that the main 4 girls were supposed to be just friends. I don't have any proof because it was a long time ago and I'm not gonna sully a dead mans name like everyone else likes to,however the voice actress of blake tends to have to much say in her character sometimes. Then again can't expect much from the writers either as they also blamed the fact there white for having a bad racism plot.
@@Savannah_Simpson Rather you like it it or not gay lesbian and bi is a minority. It wouldn't have matyer if they were random passerbies but they have some semblance of ot remblance. Other then giving a house to the gang they offer nothing other then hey were gay. Same thing with blake and yang they don't offer anything to the story anymore other then hey guys were lesbian.
vimain Wow, how do gay people in real life react when you tell they’re gayness better have a purpose? Though I’m guessing from your attitude you know very few gay people. There doesn’t need to be a reason for a character to be gay any more than there does for a character to be straight. Thats just how people are. That’s my point.
@@NarakunoHana100 He's not wrong. That's why this non existent ship was such a big deal. Literally two dudes being friends is pushed as a gay relationship. Qrow and Clover had less than 50 speaking lines together.. they literally barely spoke.
Honestly the moment I saw Clover I knew he was going to die either later in the show or in another volume but I never saw his relationship with Qrow romantic at all I saw it more as Clover is showing Qrow that he can lean onto people and find that even when bad things happen good things can still happen ( this is how I saw this relationship ) Clover was a really cool character and interesting as much as I’d love for him to be in at least one more volume I’m ok with it I see his death as something for Qrow to learn and grow
3:45 I disagree with your statement here. If anything, I'd say it was just like every other theme/social commentary/plot point/character arc/world building element that the writers tried to tackle: they never committed to it! Yang's PTSD is reduced to her shaking her hand from time to time, but it never hinders her daily life or combat skills like would in a case like this. Go search for any documentary about war veterans who lost their limbs and see how they detail their lives when they were brought back to the civil life. This is on the same level of Samus' PTSD in Other M - it shows up only during that infamous Ridley scene, but never prior or after that. Same with Qrow's alcoholism. It is not easy to let go of an addiction, and given Qrow's personality, past failures, loss of trust in the only person he believed blindly in, he should be struggling far more with that decision. His character should be dealing with withdrawal symptoms, temptation to return to the thing that eases the pain, and that in turn should have made the characters around him respond to that shift in his behavior. But neither of these concepts were properly addressed. In the end, RWBY is a show about cool concepts, but no commitment to any one of those ideas introduced in the show. They merely scratch the surface to make the audience think there's something deep and thought provoking there! Same thing with representation: the show has its share of lesbians and some gay hints sprinkled here and there, but they never commit to tell a story with those elements. They're just background noise! And yes, that includes Bumblebee!
The only problem with representation is a problem that RWBY has avoided. That problem is identity swapping in lieu of making new characters. RWBY is nothing, but new characters. In other words, they are doing representation correctly because every group deserves original characters. Changing a pre existing character is condescending because its the creative table scraps. Original characters are a fresh course for any group that receives it.
Yes! This is what they’ve been avoiding. Miraculous Ladybug, A KIDS SHOW has better representation! They actually treat characters with colored skin like normal people. LGBTQ+ are given attention too, but they aren’t used as plot devices.
@@skrrtskrrt4681 That's good to hear. A great many people who advocate for representation seemed to miss the normal in normalization. In order for people to be normalized, they have to be treated as normal people. That's acceptance right there.
Once again i recommend the She-ra reboot which has lbgtq characters, but make them actual characters written like any straight character where it doesn't define them
I'm not a huge fan of the Bumblebee ship...actually, that's an understatement. I straight up don't like it. Mostly because Blake has better chemistry and an overall better dynamic with characters like Sun and Ilia, whereas Yang has a good relationship/chemistry with....honestly, no one but her Dad. Yang's had nothing but lackluster relationships with everyone around her while Blake has had better built relationships with other characters. Having those two suddenly decide they're in love just feels like a downgrade for Blake and a contrived way of a giving Yang someone to have meaningful interactions with (because lord knows she hasn't been getting any of that from her uncle or her sister). That's Bumblebee in a nutshell. Contrived. Even worse than Korrasami (I still think she should have ended up with Bolin but that's a discussion for a different day). The fact that it seems to be the CRWBY's OTP makes the lack of effort in it even worse.
I literally would have no gripes with Bumblebee if it was written like Blacksun in the Becon arc. The writers seem to have no problems with establishing romantic overtones for Blake and Sun, but when it's Yang and Blake we have to settle for "subtlety", a wink, and the end of a dance before being handed off to someone else. Like, I get it, there are hints and they have good chemistry, but come on, it wasn't until the beginning of volume seven where I felt like they had anything close to the romantic chemistry as Blake and Sun in volume one. Then again I watch the show pretty passively so any "hints" until then flew right over my head. But it can't be denied that the show knows how to do blatanly romantic scenes and didn't have to balls to go all out until six seasons in.
I think some of the best shows I've seen recently that have really good representation are RWBY and The Dragon Prince. The Dragon Prince has several interracial couples, including the parents of 2 of the main characters. The other interracial couple is lesbian and they have a daughter. The third main character's adoptive parents are a gay couple, too. Plus the story is really good, highly recommend.
The only question I have about the two queens having a daughter is that, doesn't that make the daughter technically a bastard? If so, how is she eligible to become queen herself?
@@rachelg492 I believe she was adopted. The daughter does end up becoming the queen, but I won't give the details cuz I don't want to spoil the show for anybody interested in watching it.
@@rachelg492 I mean if someone was given a title of princess by both queens, doesn't that automatically given them the ruler ship by default? It's like if someone marrying a queen or king in other stories they become a co-ruler as well. Also, there are also lore reason about the ruler of the human kingdom in the story as well.
This "ship" has always had red flags around it for me, on a personal level. On one hand, I feel like the LGBT community tends to be it's own worst enemies when it comes to representation a lot of times. I'm a gay, black guy that likes paintball, weightlifting, has a deep voice, etc. I can't tell you how many times, since I came out, that I'd get weird looks and told "that's not normal/ that's too masculine for a gay guy"..... by other gay guys. So the moment people started shipping Qrow and Clover together, I instantly knew that it'd backfire and get a lot of backlash, both from the LGBT community and straights. But MOSTLY from the LGBT community.....
Yes, it turns out the LGBT+ community are going to have criticisms when you mishandle your LGBT+ representation. I’m sorry others try to stereotypically label you, but that is not the same as genuinely critiquing a show for its failures
I personally, as a bi woman, feel frustrated. I personally felt Bumblebee was rushed after all the time setting up Blacksun in seasons 4 and 5, Ilia was left in unrequited love territory, Jaune’s sister and wife were only unimportant side characters. Clover and Qrow to me felt like they could’ve been a well developed gay romance involving an important character, only for Clover to die. It just kinda reminds me of Adam and Shiro from Voltron. All build up, no pay off.
I think that Qrow and Clover just didn't have enough time together to establish anything more than a friendly, somewhat vulnerable dynamic. They care about each other, that much is clear, but they haven't had enough dialogue, enough time together to really deepen or define their relationship further.
16:32 (TL;DR at the end) I heard that argument too But to be applied to the series, dating between the main cast of characters can cause the creators to focus too much on the relationship of two people rather that’s the relationship of the team And I’m not saying that I can’t be done because it can It’s just that Roosterteeth hasn’t put given us a heart to heart moment and I know they can because of the endings of season 1 and 2 of Camp Camp (I have watched any other seasons if there are more) which I swear to god almost had me in tears because Max was a little shit head throughout the entire series but these two endings especially the second had me almost if not crying and not only that but with the character depth that we get from Season 2 finale everything clicks All of his swearing and bad attitude was all because of his parents I wanted to use that example because that is a very hard subject to handle... made in a series that supposed to be comedic Yet here with a series that’s supposed to be dark and menacing, the subjects are covered with no where near the same care (the scene with Ironwood’s PTSD is perfect and is in the safe zone) But everything else has been handled with no care It would’ve been great back in volume 4 or 5 to see Blake looking at a picture of the team with Yang crying over it or at least show something that she misses Yang but there is absolutely nothing And it’s really bad in 5, 6, and 7 TL;DR For a series that supposed to dark and series it takes care of its sensitive subject matter like it a joke. (Being a TH-camr would make all of this writing worth it lol) (Also sorry for the rant and for it not making sense) I agree with a a good majority I would’ve just reworded some things though Last edit: I was genuinely pissed at how they have controlled their LGBT characters I honestly want leagues better not just from Roosterteeth but for the film industry as a whole
I myself am one of RWBY's WLW fans and I agree with most of the arguments made here. I personally read Qrow and Clover's interactions as platonic, but I can also 100% see why some fans (especially MLM ones) would think otherwise. I don't agree with Clover being brought back to live for the same reasons you mentioned. I'm a writer myself, so I know that resurrection has a very fine line in storytelling between being a good idea and a terrible one, as you said it many times can take away the stakes because it makes it feel as though if a character dies it doesn't matter since they can just be brought back again. In addition to that, I like the idea of Clover's arrogance backfiring since most of the volume he relied heavily on his semblance, seemingly believing that it would prevent ANYTHING bad from happening to him at all, so him dying due to this, from a fellow writer's perspective, was pretty good. I do agree though that before that episode CRWBY should have made an announcement that Lucky Charms would not become canon as anything more than a bromance.
No, Clover needs to come back to life. That is the only way they can salvage this mess. It's way worse from a writers perspective to kill a gay character off than it is to bring sdmeone back from the dead.
@Metsarebuff 22 He May not be explicitly confirmed to be gay, but he was damn sure hinted to be some form of mlm through his relationship with Qrow and the staff’s constant egging on of the ship without any effort to actually address the issue. Also, yes, killing off gay characters is BYG. That’s literally what BYG is. It’s not just randomly killing LGBT+ characters (though again Clover’s death was random and nowhere near as important to the story as you’re saying it was), it’s a blanket term for any LGBT+ characters. And yes, it’s also a problem when GRRM does it, but we’re not talking about that piece of shit edgelord we’re talking about RWBY. And what? No it wouldn’t. Characters have been brought back from the dead before (hi Penny!) and probably will be again after Clover is hopefully brought back. Resurrection is pretty much the only way they can fix this shit show. Well that, and an actual sincere apology that wasn’t just blaming us for getting upset at their “genius” writing.
@Metsarebuff 22 No, they don’t. Straight men don’t have a bond like Qrow and Clover did. Literally every gay man I’ve talked to picked up on super strong subtext about their relationship. Literally all of Clover’s screen time was spent flirting with Qrow. No, killing off gay characters is always bad. Maybe in a few hundred years when we have roughly the same representation as Cishet people you could get away with this but we don’t, so you shouldn’t rob us of what little rep we do have even if you’re such an uncreative hack that ‘death’ is the only way out of a story. And no, it doesn’t. I’m not a big fan of the She-Ra reboot, but that’s a show that gives its LGBT+ characters plot armor but maintains its suspense because it doesn’t let on that they have any. Also, easy way to resurrect him. Staff of Creation. Wanna maintain the stakes? Make it so that they only get to resurrect one person. Boom. Years.
@Metsarebuff 22 Sure, But when they openly wink and flirt with each other they’re clearly not straight. “Wahhhh trans people wont have to worry about their only representation in the show getting violently murdered!!1!” I swear to god it’s like you ignore all my actual points and just bring up the same shit. We *can’t* be treated as normal if we’re constantly baited and killed, and then told we’re in the wrong for feeling baited. (Also Miles saying Qrow and Clover were “friends” doesn’t actually clarify anything because loads of romantic relationships are between friends). Let’s put it this way. If you were in a contest to see who could build the tallest LEGO tower, and your opponent got a 30 minute head start, and the judges took a bat to your tower every five seconds, do you think that you’d actually get any progress on the tower made? No? Or to use an actual real world example: wheelchair ramps! By your logic that’s not treating people that use wheelchairs “equally” because it’s giving them something able-bodied people don’t also have, so it’s bad right? Sometimes “equality” isn’t the solution. Sometimes equity is the solution. It’s not like RWBY’s any stranger to controversial writing decisions. Only now instead of portraying civil rights groups as violent evil terrorists the controversy would stem from them actually listening to the feedback from their LGBT+ audience, so they’d be in the right here. Even from a cynical business perspective and completely disregarding any morals whatsoever it’s the least they could do to try to clear up the massive PR nightmare that this whole incident was.
@Metsarebuff 22 It does when that joking is literally just flirting. “I’m against LGBT+ characters dying at a higher rate but I’m also against doing anything to stop that”. It doesn’t lower the tension, especially if you don’t know the character has plot armor (like my She-Ra example, none of their LGBT+ characters die but it still carries a lot of narrative tension). You say “say goodbye to major television villains like Gus Fring” as if that’s a bad thing lmao yes I want less gay villains and gay deaths. I don’t care if it’s limiting for cishet writers who only know how to kill us off, they shouldn’t be writing us. No, most people have not moved on. Most people are still fuckin pissed at em. I’m in a group chat on Discord full of em. And no, Eddy’s apology wasn’t sincere in the slightest. It was a half-assed “I’m sowwy u feel that way uwu” without actually addressing why people feel that way or promising to do better. And they’ve routinely belittled and tone policed the fans that felt baited - even comparing wanting a gay coded man to not get the most violent death in the show to a bunch of people angry they didn’t get a goddamn shopping montage. They haven’t taken any sort of personal responsibility that they haven’t immediately shifted to the fans for having feelings and criticizing them too hard. You’d stop watching if they actually listened to their LGBT+ fans instead of their own fragile cishet egos? Yeah you’re part of the problem with why LGBT+ representation is so low. Dumbass cishets that think their billionth story about a gay couple dying or breaking up is far more important than actually listening to the people they’re trying to represent.
Gonna be real here? While I do enjoy Clover? (He’s dead in body, not in spirit) only problem I had with the lucky charms/fair game was how it seemed Clover was being a little pushy. I get he’s trying to help and applaud that. But when you add flirting to that? Kinda does add misunderstandings. Especially if you are a person who needs time to open up
I personally think that this an excellent video, even though I personally disagree with a lot of your opinions, this is a conversation that needed to be had about representation in RWBY and western media in general and I completely agree with you and Alex that RWBY really does take after magical girl shows more than shonen, as far as transformation senquences go... Monty just chose to do it with everyone's (named) weapons.
I saw Crow and Clover as a very important relationship, that could evolve to romantic or keep it platonic, but a very important relationship to Crow independent if evolved or not. So.... In my opinion, even if was CLEAR it was a platonic thing, the end still was traumatizing ;-; specially if you count with all the aro people who would appreciate a platonic representation...
I usually don't comment on videos but the quote "Because I hate alcohol but I need something unhealthy to cope with." Is such a mood that I can totally understand.
Ever since Volume 1 there's been a stigma that two characters having a close-ish and or beneficial relationship automatically means shipping, and while I liked what came out of it, I wouldn't call "Lucky Charms" canon, nor would I have ever considered it to be them being gay. It was a very Gon-Killua situation, where it didn't feel right to just yeet the two into a couple just because they had antithetic Semblances and Clover had a positive influence on Qrow as a character. On a personal note, I don't feel like representation is a necessity, because I'm confident I could easily recognize a valid ship when I see one(I watch anime for christ's sake, gays and lesbians surprisingly abound in the medium), and from what I can see, it would be detrimental to BOTH characters to simply characterize their relationship as them being romantically interested in one another, because that inherently points out: - Clover was doing the things he was doing with either the goal or indirect motivation of romance, thus lessening his role as an ADULT Paragon(which I feel was slightly wasted since he and Ruby didn't get a lot of screen time together, but I digress). - Qrow wasn't actually changing due to influence, but rather because of romantic pressure. - That the only reason there was a meaningful connection between the two was because of the underlying romance. Which is a pretty bad theme for the show because it suggests that Lancaster might eventually be a thing(and those would be dark days). - It has an implication that CRWBY either doesn't understand, or doesn't WANT to understand the things I stated above about adult men needing to be in a space with other adult men. Qrow spent every last Volume up to 7 being the only real adult in the setting outside of Maria(who's just a child in an old lady body) and Lionheart. Clover being the first really decent man he's met in a while alleviates a lot of the pressure from him. Side note, anyone who says that two guys caring for one another is "gay" clearly has either never had a best friend before, or they grew up as a toxic and *legitimate* homophobe. What's often lost in more modern media is the positive relationships between men, not guys, not boys, but between two adult males; one of whom is in a not-so-good situation, and maybe just needed a positive influence to get him through that bad time. EDIT: I just want to clarify that I would have had no qualms with Qrow having a male partner, I just feel like there should have been more emphasis put on the peer-relationship rather than the romantic one. Double Edit: Unicorn pretty much said everything I said here in like the first 6 minutes, I just have a more negative affinity toward it ending up as a ship. Triple Edit: I think the negative stigma around Blake and Yang is that in Volume 5 they went and showed a weird prioritization thing where they only seemed to focus on each other, and were kinda- off from the rest of the group(which doesn't really make sense, but same/similar principle as still being lonely in a house full of people).
Representation IS a neccesity, this ain't some passion project, it's corporate. It should aim to please as much as it can. Spoken like a true straight.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Bit late to the party(a whole year late) and not only that but your argument is functionally ad hominem. Firstly, RWBY as a show has very little in the way of actually representing peer-relationships between men and women. My entire point in my comment was that I was pointing out how detrimental it is for Qrow and Clover to be the ones to end up together, because it completely changes the entire dynamic of their relationship and makes it kind of toxic. Secondly, representation is in no way a necessity for any demographic. It never has, never will, and it never should be. Thirdly, for your information, I'm bisexual. Checkmate heterophobe.
@@silverbro13 Lol what? Jaune and Nora? Nora and Oscar? Pietro and Maria? Robyn and Qrow (hopefully)? Emerald and Mercury (probably)? RUBY AND JAUNE?! You just blow in from stupid town or something? Clover makes Qrow happy, how is that toxic? Is every gay relationship toxic to antis? Yall said this shit about BB too, Jaune and Pyrrha was toxic. Jaune and Weiss was especially toxic. Not these two when they better each other and compliment the other. You can be bi and still be homophobic. And lol muh heterophobia. Straight people aren't oppressed. And I doubt you're bi, it's way too convenient everyone I shit on who says homophobic shit is secretly LGBT. Conservatives are known to pretend to be minorities to spread bigotry too.
Honestly I never saw lucky charms as a full relationship. I hope it would be but in my mind it never got to be. This looked more like they were both unsure of what the relation ship was and were just chilling because their jobs were more important at the time. It just never got to progress. My biggest issue isn't even the bury the gays thing because I never saw it as that. My issue was Qrow deciding to embody his fairytale and fucking ditch his brain in that fight. That score to settle shit came ut of nowhere and just seemed like an excuse to have a death which is utter bullshit. I hated that fight on a narrative level because Qrow should've teamed with Cloverin that fight because obviously Tyrion was a higher priority target and Clover and Qrows fight should've come after they caught tyrion. Maybe Qrow could've killed him in a blind rage after unknowingly breaking his aura. Or hell maybe Tyrion just kills him in their fight with his aura breaking semblance. I just hated the team up becaue it was such an obvious trap.
Qrow actually did assume he'd be teaming up with Clover vs Tyrian at first, the second our scorpion pal makes his appearance Qrow immediately turns on him, leaving his back open to Clover as though he's no longer an enemy. CLOVER's the one who abused this trust, not once, but twice, by attacking Qrow instead of Tyrian and putting Qrow in a really shitty position because of it. Clover forced the stalemate between Qrow and Tyrian by continuing to target Qrow despite several opportunities to take down the serial killer instead. While there were many questionable decisions in that fight from ALL parties (WTF Qrow, just fly off, you don't have to fight anyone at all), him teaming up with Tyrian momentarily wasn't one of them. It was literally life or death, Qrow can't sustain a 2v1 vs Tyrian and Clover. And if Clover's not gonna pair up with him (even AFTER Tyrian made the offer, Clover still struck at Qrow), then he's forced to choose the other.
@@SheenaMalfoy Qrow at this point also wanted to keep Robyn from being brought to Atlas, wich she in all likelihood would be after she tried to attack Clover
I’m sorry but I strongly disagree with you on the Yang’s PTSD. It didn’t hinder her at all during that battle with Adam. She was kicking his ass thoroughly through out that entire fight. She wasn’t strongly at all or desperately trying to overcome the “fear” she had towards Adam. Her fist shaking means absolutely nothing when it served no purpose.
@@brianbrush5107 As someone who has PTSD, shaking fists really doesn't mean a whole lot. My hands shake when I'm excited, sometimes, but that's about it. I know everyone handles it in their own way, but shaking fists, is really a big nothing on its own.
@@brianbrush5107 she was literally having nightmares about him. She would literally jump at the mere sight of him. Her PTSD made it difficult for her to even put on the arm. The show made it clear that Adam has a major hold on her. The fact that she was able to fight while confronting him with absolutely no fear or hesitation shows that the PTSD was ultimately pointless.
UOW- I have always and believe that I always will like your videos. They have always been well thought out, explained without be demeaning, and funny(at the right times). Please keep 'em coming!
Hey, person who did the captions on this, if your seeing this I just want to say that while your comments are understandable please for the love of gods do not add them into the captions because there are people who need them and the comments take away from the video.
Lol, thanks very much for putting this together. I feel like so many people commenting on this video didn't actually watch the video in full--not just that they didn't enjoy it or agree with it, but that they straight-up (lol) stopped watching two minutes in, and that makes me sad both within myself and on your behalf. There's too much insight here to be missed, and I hope that some of these people come back and give it another go-around. This fandom needs more content creators like you.
I LOVED the relationship between Qrow and Clover, romantic OR platonic. It was (in my opinion) very well written (up until the fever dream nightmare that was the last few episodes), and showed the healthy progression of someone getting over their alcohol abuse, self-esteem issues, and general pessimism enough to open up and actually Interact with people in a way that doesn't imply or outright conclude with their thinking of themselves as a horrible person. And, yes, Clover flirted with Qrow a lot in the first few episodes. But, quite frankly, to me? Those first attempts seem less like actual flirting, and more like Clover making an almost last-ditch effort to get Qrow to realize that, hey, people care about you, *I* care about you, and I want to be your friend, because you need it. Like how someone would jokingly (or possibly not jokingly) flirt with someone they want to make friends with? So yeah. I personally see Fair Game as romantic, but if it's platonic that's fine too!
While I agree with sentiment that representation should be equal in media there is a caveat to that in the fact the author/creator of the work has the right to showcase what they want in their story. Forcing representation into media might only lead to it being superficial and not real. If the representation helps further the plot or world building then perfect if it doesn't serve either purpose it feels shoehorned in and just doesn't feel real or natural within the world that is being built by the author or creator. I feel of course for the underrepresented in media and absolutely feel that the representation should start happening more but if it doesn't feel real, it would just feel like placation rather than true representation. I wish nothing but the best for humanity no matter the skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and gender get representation because at the end of the day, We are all human.
@@Sephajinami You do have a point on how individuals take the writing. I have had to have this argument with people in the past about points of plot in the past about taking our real world experience into a world were the characters don't have the same experience. We are all guilty of this in some shape or form. For example I may not understand what a same sex couple has to go through as I personally am not interested in the same sex in terms of attraction. Which is why I have friends who I talk with who do have the experience to get that understanding. It is when we don't try to understand the other people when the problems start to arise. I personally don't get the argument that individuals present about introducing a character and getting to know the person only for that person to be LGBT in some way either gay, bi, and so on as a bad thing. If the author introduces the character without going into sexuality until the point of reveal then it is still getting to know the character.
The waitress winks when she says "I went ahead and gave you top" then she said "lucky you." Clover said "my semblance is good fortune" then he winked when he said "lucky you." They both wink and say "lucky you," but it's what they say before "lucky you" and when they wink that makes the difference between the meaning behind their wink.
I think I see what your point is, however couldn't both be interpreted as "I have a way (works behind the bar/counteracting semblance) to help you out ... lucky you" to which the words spoken prior mean no different
@@bluegallade Keep in mind Qrow's reaction after the wink and when they say "Lucky you." Qrow is smirking at the waitress after that interaction but with Clover he looks sad. He's still coming to terms with the truth about Salem and Ozpin. Remember how he said he was cursed? So when Clover said that to him he looked surprised and a bit envious. Like he wish he could have that semblance Clover had. Because his has always been a hinderance to him.
Great video! I’m not mlm, but I am LGBTQ and I was upset about Fair Game and how it ended. This was a great explanation that respects the audience and analyzes the writer’s process well. It also comforts those who were hurt while still discouraging attacks on fans or other writers. Thank you!
11:35 the Q stands for "Questioning". "Queer" isn't accepted by everyone. Personally, I won't forbid someone from using it for themselves but I'll never use this word as an identifier for all the LGBT people because it would be disrespectful to all of those who don't want to be characterized by a slur they never wanted to claim. I agree with most of the video. I also realized that as much as resurrections make the stakes less important, too many character deaths also make me more jaded and uninvested. If any character can die at any moment, I tend to distance myself from the story and (unconsiously?) refuse to sympathize too much with the characters. "Oh, you killed this lovely person for no other reason than trying to make me feel bad? Jokes on you I don't feel a anything anymore!". And thus, after the 3rd death, my reaction generally goes from "F*CK NO!!!" to "Oh... that happened. How unfortunate."
i don't think this video has positively impacted the discourse. this is the same problem i have with Bumblebee now. i don't think not believing a ship will/would/should be cannon makes me homophobic and from most people who support these two ships, that's what i get written off as. i'm not only painted with different intent i'm painted as maliciously just being against LGBTQ+ representation.
Joe Francis I disagree with that sentiment. I and others aren’t against lgbtq+ relationships in media. I do however disagree with creators being accused of queerbating and fans of homophobia because 2 characters had one short conversation. I’m not being insulting and that’s why I watched unicorn’s entire video.
I have watched both this video and your Volume 7 review multiple times and I feel like this is the right time to throw my two cents into this discussion. Since I like to wait til all the episodes are out to binge watch the series in one whole, I get spoilers from all sides and, since I do not fear spoilers, I knew Qrow was gonna get a partner who was going to die by the end of the Volume going into this. As a rookie writer, I see why they decided to kill off Clover in favour of Qrow's character development. It can either make Qrow go back to his self-destructive ways, making him go down on a dark path that can create interesting dynamics with him, his nieces and family, specifically Tai and Raven, or use this as an opportunity to really take a good hard look at himself and the people around him who love and care about him. It can be, as coined by superhero stories, his 'Uncle Ben Moment', the moment where a character loses someone they care about and use that as their drive to make sure nothing like that never happens again to them and to people around them. And it gives him a great motivation to impale Tyrian on his sword more than ever before. All of that said, I still felt sad when they killed off Clover. I grew to love him despite my knowledge of what happens him and I never expected to ship him and Qrow as much as I do. Yes, still do. I acknowledge the canon of them as friends and fully approve of them being two guys with a close and quirky bromance but I feel like it could have been better for both Qrow and the show to make their relationship romantic but have a healthy bromance between Qrow and Ironwood. Not only could Qrow use more close people around his own age but it could have been a good way to explore more of James' character outside of his paranoia and make his fall into fear-filled madness even more gut-punching than it already was but also give him a way out of that mess via his bonds with Winter and Qrow. There would also be no need to kill off anyone to further Qrow's development since Ironwood's decent into madness can be viewed as a death of a character in it's own right and a more effective one at that. It could also give Qrow a good opportunity to actually learn about the Atlesian lifestyle, giving him a better understanding of Ironwood, Winter and, of course, Clover. Also, Qrow, Ironwood and Oscar bonding over stories about Ozpin over non-alcoholic drinks, giving the two older men a more human moment and giving Oscar an opportunity to express his feelings about the whole 'an ancient wizard is sharing my body and mind' situation but also gaining a different perspective on the man that isn't filled with suspicion and betrayal. In short: making Lucky Charms/Fair Game a romantic relationship and having that bromance with Ironwood saves Clover and kills multiple Nevermores with only a pebble. And before anyone says a bromance between Qrow and Ironwood isn't possible thanks to their interactions in Volume 3, are you blind? Did you see the hug in episode 2? And yes, this whole rant was inspired by that one scene because because I like seeing the birb man happy, dammit! Thank you and good night!
Miraculous Ladybug, a *kids* show, literally has better representation. Characters who are People of Color are treated like normal people and are equal to every other character. LGTBQ+ characters are given attention too, but they aren’t treated like plot devices.
I agree! I like the rep in MLB, it’s subtle to the point where you know they a couple but it’s not shoved in our faces like, “LOOOKKK WE HAVE REPRESENTATION FUOSHSSDODR” It’s nice and refreshing.
@@nyabhanteny916 yeah but coloured people means the same thing so what's the point? I'm not gonna be insulted because they both refer to colour. No one's gonna be insulted by a really simple truth.
Bullshit men are nice to each other my friend Kyle cares about me and he’s not gay he’s helped me and made me feel better about myself and WERE JUST BROS !! He helped me wanna get closer to god
Im all for the lucky charms ship, to each their own. I am a straight male but i have guy friends i hug affectionately and even emotionally support them the same way i do a SO but this is an absolutely hetero action no sexual tension and you know what its perfectly fine.
I can't read people for shit so I just went off Qrow's blatant expression of his interest in women from previous seasons and it's still hard for me to piece together the vibe Lucky Charms shippers get off of their scenes together. Though this is coming from someone who'd have to be outright told someone's feelings for them so I'm a garbage judge.
Also bisexuality is a thing. Most people that headcanon Qrow as anything other than straight usually headcanon gets as either bi or pan because of his interest in women
@@ravenfrancis1476 he’s flirted with women multiple times never with men and he’s mentioned women and her skirt to Yang when he visited her if he was bisexual he would have flirted with men and or mentioned he found other men attractive so no he’s not bisexual
@@ravenfrancis1476 "BiSeXuAliTy ExIstS" lol shut up. That same dumb excuse was used for Blake and Yang. Qrow's straight.. people really can't be just friends in this show jesus! Lol.
I personally don’t ship Clover and Qrow, as I never saw any romantic signs. I myself am in two parts of the LGBT community, and I didn’t sense anything. I hate when two same sex characters are shipped just cuz GAY. Plus Qrow in past volumes always showed more flirtatious sides of himself towards females, like in RWBY Chibi or when he talked about that waitress. There were never valuable scenes of Qrow ever coming off as “maybe I’m gay.” To me Clover and Qrow were just close friends as Clover was someone Qrow really needed. I do hate that Clover died though, as I feel it was random in some ways (not completely), and I know it’ll mess Qrow up again. Idk, I just don’t see it.
Ruby and Yang's dad is the most hetero of the characters. Therefore the RWBY writers MUST make him into Mr. safety / boring / dull / uninteresting. Yes, He cares about his daughters, there is never any adventure where he is around. That was the stated reason why Yang wanted to go to Beacon Academy into the huntsman lifestyle. She did not appreciate how he, like many USA parents, wanted his kids to grow up in a safe environment.
His one failing, common among the RWBY parents, is to give his daughters scrolls. All of the RWBY students have them S1-3. The Facebook founder does not allow his own kids near any such social media devices.
21:45 something i heard only secondhandedly was that the reason they changed him from gay to not gay was due to the fact that they didn't want to have the first gay person in rwby to also be doing underhanded activities thus the change. although i could be wrong i can't even remember if this was even right it was just something i heard on the comment grapevine.
Everything you said was right and Yang is bi because in volume 1 in response to ruby saying " I don't think dad would apove the boys" and yang said "I do" with a look a her face
My issue with representation in western anime is the fact that instead of doing it properly they think representation means make everyones gay/lesbian and thats the only thing they bring to the table. Blake is a perfect example. She is literally there just to pander to a ship at this point. Same with yang she is no longer yang anymore.
@@brianbrush5107 Literally anyone could say this to robin and it wouldn't make a difference the plot would have gone the same way. It wasn't that important . Oh yah they also managed to tell the people being criminals top secret information. Iy honestly would have made a lot more sense If rwby was the one who told her considering she was struggling with telling james about salem.
@@brianbrush5107 Yah because james going on a power trip saves mantle right? If I recall they have to flee. Telling robin isn't that important and wouldn't have changed hardly anything. The only thing it might have changed is clover not dying. Be for you say its important that he died,nkt really the fight literarily made no sense they both teamed up with a serial killer. Neither character with the way they act would team up with tyrian. Blake and yang are literally there to appease the shippers. Hell even weiss said nah this ain't it chief in the beginning of the season.
@@brianbrush5107 yang's character is also been stopped to token lesbian ship as in the companion book they state yang is overprotective of her sister and I can maybe recall just maybe 1 or 2 instances where it kinda shows,for the most part she kinda abandons her sister.
I don't like how clover dies however i don't think he should come back because it would destroy to much of the stakes also hell if he came back why not just have pyrah back too
I appreciate your honesty, and the lengths you went to try to keep order in this comment section. I, for one, feel the need to respond in kind. I do not and cannot appreciate the idea of entertainment as purely a reflection of the real world. Using it to represent real groups of people will only lead to exactly what happened here, a misunderstanding. This is not avoidable, this is not stoppable. Gay people are not a hive mind, they are not all the same. That would be tantamount to claiming every heterosexual person is. Instead, let them be characters, let the writers write, even if it is harmful. I'm not saying don't voice your opinions, but you seem to be under the notion that there is a correct way to do things. There is no right way, unless that way is writing someone like a human. Division into smaller, and smaller, more specific groups won't help anyone. This is how I will handle my writings, not how I intend to, or how I think it should be, its how I will do it. People will consider this wrong, or right, or any measure in-between, but I will continue on all the same. Listening, watching, learning, but never bending. As silly as I was, I have a lot of work to do to make those words real, and I would think, you do as well. If you want the world to understand you. Bring your vision to life, you are after all, the only one who can. Written, Noah, someone who could not be more opposite the political spectrum from you even if he tried. Good luck!
And straight couples get turned down/ ridiculed for not representing gays so I'm tired of this. Like who you want but don't ridicule either side of the fence. Gays are great straight is great and in all honesty neither side had to represented in rwby, but they did.
No YT is functioning perfectly fine, it happens because views only register ~30 seconds of watchtime as a view, while likes and comments are registered instantly. The page doesn't show the views etc. in real time hence it looks weird.
Spoken too much on this, so I’m just gonna copy/paste. Guys... if you saw them as platonic, that’s fine. Literally fine. Because like Ive told others before, the shipping aspect was only the *tip* of the iceberg. most critics and fndm can agree Clover was non-het, and liked him for that. Even the animator made him flirt with Qrow. some liked Qrow and Clover’s dynamic and wished to see it grow in future interactions with each other. some people liked that Qrow now had a support structure that could include *actual adults,* and not just children, or an immortal in a *child’s body.* some just felt like Clover acted as the fndm’s mouthpiece to finally tell their favorite character “on god we’re going to get you some self-love” and some people...just felt like seeing Qrow trying to abstain and lead a healthier life and mindset gave them courage to do the same. and these moments were usually brought out in interactions with Clover.(a family member of mine goes to AA, and an important thing that Clover did when Qrow stumbled over his alcoholic past was not judge, or even so much as reference it. That’s...That’s like so important. That scene was such a good one despite how short it was.) Hopefully what I’m getting across is, the criticism for killing off that character was Not just a ship thing, and to say so is inaccurate and kind of alienates people from banding with other critics in hopes of CRWBY listening to a larger number of voices.
14:20 asexual has nothing really to do with ones romantic interests. otherwise they would also be aromantic right. affection and sexual interest to my understanding are different just like the differences between ones biological sex and their behavioral gender.
So...unless I'm missing something, this is in Unicorn's Volume 7 review. Eh, I still think it's an important video for someone like me simply because I'm not part of the LGBT community and didn't really get the blowback to Clover's death. Also Unicorn, could you please release the scripts (Chapters 7-14) of your 'I Rewrote RWBY Volume 5... Again' videos? Chapters 1-6 are great, and I'd love to read the rest. P.S: 7:32, Unicorn, I think both myself, and alot of people would get upset at the idea of losing someone as entertaining as yourself, so if these thoughts are genuinely plaguing you, please take care of yourself. The world will be become a bit more unpleasant without you.
I don't handwave the notion that Qrow and Clover were ever supposed to be a couple, my issue with this apply's to shipping in general regardless of gender. Too often people make the mistake of thinking a relationship should be all that defines a charachter so when two charachters are together and they have any kind of affection toward each other the response is to instantly think they'll be a couple. This is why in order for me to get behind a couple they must have clear solid reasoning that their going to get together. Yang and Blake for example I have no trouble believing that their going to be a couple. The build up has been much stronger than people think for it I noticed signs of it even back when they had that heart to heart in season 2 and as time has gone on it just became stronger. Representation does matter but just as it's important for same sex couples to be seen as normal. I think it's just as important for people to see that two people can still really care about each other and not be in a relationship. Steven Universe was my first real exposure to that and Garnet is now one of my favorite girl charachters same goes for Pearl. The relationship Ruby and sapphire have does'nt define them and Pearl's feelings toward Rose are'nt all there is to her charachter either. This is my point, no matter what I want charachters to be treated as three dimensional and not just objects that only exist to be a couple both by writers and the viewers.
If Qrow were to ever have a love interest. That love interest having a good luck semblance would've been #1 on things that love interest had. It feels too obvious. Sure they could've been just two bros, but really? How do you put a character with a good luck semblance and a character with a bad luck semblance, together in the same room and not ship them?
Ok sooo without hate, I feel like they would’ve done Lucky Charm if it weren’t for their limits on episodes. They definitely were going for something deeper but could only have 12 episodes to get the plot through. It’s not that they need to value character moments over plot but they need to extend their episodes count. Yes more character moments are needed but we also need more plot to balance. Anyways if they had more time I feel like they would’ve given Clover a longer arc with Qrow definitely ending in a relationship and then Clover’s death. Now the death would play a harder part on Qrow and how he feels about the villains and life itself. With them trying to push a Volume every year I feel like they rush and cut out a lot of arcs and everything. I want them to take their time with volume 8 and make sure they get in everything they want to without rushing.
I really doubt that, they were originally gonna have the pilot who gets Weiss out of Atlas be gay, but cut it cause they didn't wanna go with the Bury your gays trope.
Okay I know I'm gonna come off petty af for focusing on this bit out of the whole vid (14:30-14:35), but did you really just say that😳? As if! Literally wouldn't have anymore gay bros still @ war online if that was the case lady.
15:20, While I’m not sure that is the reason why, I do think female LGBT representation is more readily accepted. While I can name so many Sapphic couples in media, Lumity, Bubbline, Catradora, Korrasami, Annomi, ect I can’t really name any male LGBT couples apart from like, Willows dads from TOH (who have basically no screentime and I don’t even think have names from show only sources), Shadam (from Voltron and Adam died instantly to the point I’m not even sure if that’s his name) and Dismault from DD (which isn’t even canon and Reynault dies so it never can be)
Part of the problem is the obvious homophobia and also the gendered double standards as gay male couples are seen as more s*xual, than lesbian couples. That's why there are so many gay dads in kids cartoons, it's easier seeing them as parental figures (which arguably adultifies queer men in a different way from how we adultify queer women).
I remember watching THAT episode with my boyfriend, and him just seeing my face go from one of edged worry to disappointed rage lmaoooo
Fun fact: Clover winking at Qrow wasnt in the episode script, that was added by one of the animators because she shipped them.
Wow.
XD
No that's actually something he might do.
To our unending dismay.
Spencer Malley where’d you hear that?
@@archerlangfield8189 RWBY Reddit Thread.
My only ONLY problem with Lucky Charms and Bumblebee is BAD WRITING and lack of understanding. As a Black women, I understand how representing is so important but not all representing is good representation. The only thing I want from CRWBY is more development of the LGBTQ+ and better writing
Right? We are like 8 seasons into the show and the Bumblebee relationship has received almost no treatment at all and it's something we know they've been aware of since like what, season 2?
@@jojodelacroix
Don't forget the fact that it is lacks communication or well actual touches or ANY of them saying "My girlfriend. Blake over here."
Yeahhh, RWBY as a series is very.. uhhh, On the spot.
They should be writing and planning ahead of time, but RWBY feels like it's just improv after improv, So much improv to the point where RWBY currently makes barely any sense from when you look at where it started out.
All ships in RWBY are badly written
@Andrew Gray Oh shut up
This is by far the kindest and most constructive perspective on what happened that I have ever heard. Liked it in the season 7 review and liked it here. Well done and I hope videos and posts like this help CRWBY to avoid this in future.
That’s why everyone likes Unicorn
@@asuna5701 the sad part is every time I come across people talking about this outside this channel's comments, they're portraying Unicorn's intent as calling CRWBY bigots.
"Lucky You. *winks*"
Me: *Intense regret and internal big oof energy*
I loved Lucky Charms. Normally I would just eat the marshmallows, but the actual cereal was ok.
Oh, and Qrow x Clover was a cool ship, too, ig.
I have been in a lucky charmsless country for ten years. I did manage to get those cinnamon toast squares form my aunt so it's not all bad.
I hated those fake ass Cheerios as a kid! I came for the marshmallows!
Colin J I’m probably the only person who loved the cereal more than the marshmallows
I didn't see any romantic relationship between Qrow and Clover, all i saw was a bromance. I think people confused the banter between the two as flirting.
@@vincegalila7211 which country is that?
Toxic masculinity can kick a brick. Caring about and helping your male friends and accepting help when you need it normal and healthy. I hate that our society looks down on men who are open with their feelings.
Can you define toxic masculinity?
by any chance is there toxic femininity
@@handhelder823 Sorry for the late reply.
Toxic masculinity is used to describe how certain masculine traits such as stoicism and a focus on showing dominant strength over emotion can cause harm to those who express it and those around them. And yes, there is such a thing as toxic femininity too.
Everything can be toxic when taken to a radical extreme. The key is to be able to balance masculine and feminine traits in a way that works for you - regardless of what you identify as. It's okay to show emotions and be vulnerable, but it's also important to show strength and be able to shoulder burdens when needed. Figuring out when to show strength or emotion can be tricky. But finding balance can lead to a healthier and happier life.
Hope this helps. :)
@@johnking9943 Thank you very much. It helped quite a lot actually
@@jamescannella1395 yes
When I think about the dynamic of Ruby and Qrow I am reminded of a quote from Uncle Iroh "if you look for the light, you will often find it but if you look for the dark, it is all you will see".
Iroh's wisdom applies everywhere. Even if it's from Korra
@@justsomeguyanimations wisdom is wisdom no matter the source. Because in the end it is what allows us to grow.
@@TheSkyrider27 Agreed. My point was just how despite Korra's drop in quality from the original, and especially in season 2 where it was at it's worst, they still couldn't mess up Iroh. He is an untouchable character.
@@justsomeguyanimations True Iroh is untouchable.
@@justsomeguyanimations Korra had the best wisdom lines in my opinion.
Never shipped these two, but I'm bisexual, and when I saw how the CRWBY posted about it and noticed the writing between them, I became understandably pissed off about their sudden oblivion to the message of representation they portrayed to fans.
I feel you as someone who is also bisexual, I never saw them as romantic. I mean people even think a friendly wink or a comforting hug is considered shipping. Also, I always hated that the rwby market staff keeps ship baiting to their customers to buy their products, when there are so many others ways to market/adversite their product.
@@justdb4 yeah, they used the fandom's response to their financial advantage.... it's more morally grey than ozpin in all volumes.
@@jk-it2vt right. lol
@@justdb4 honestly, as someone who watched through the series after the fact and didn't have to wait for the episodes to come out... I didn't even have time to decide if I thought they'd be a good romantic pair or not. I think that even if they were gonna kill off Clover, they didn't keep him around long enough for that to matter based on his own merits. Clover's death mostly matters in terms of what it does to Qrow emotionally. which is... I mean, it's alright, I guess, but it makes it seem like they're not willing to take risks by killing anyone who is longer established, and more important for their own reasons. especially because they do this in the same volume where they brought back Penny. if they'd saved his death for at least a volume later... and also if they hadn't made Qrow team up with friggin Tyrian, like, _that_ decision was egregiously dumb on all counts, and it really screws up that whole piece of the show for me because I just can't turn my brain off quite that much.
but for what it's worth, I think that what really makes them read as romantic isn't the hugs or winking or whatever... it's that whenever it happens, Qrow is always making this like "oh... feelings" kinda face, and for a baseline less expressive character, it kind of breaks his largely apathetic trend. it reads as a bigger deal that he's reacting to someone this way. and Qrow already has a narrative that's based around isolation and loneliness, which will resonate with a lot of LGBT people who didn't get to date until way later in life because they had to wait til they felt safe enough to come out first. like, that's not meant to be a definitive gotcha or anything, but it is sort of like... the cherry on top, for the people who got drawn in. even if you were just an awkward person who didn't have a lot of friends and you watched this, seeing the result of this volume would be really hurtful to you. I think there is some merit to thinking that the people who could relate to this type of story didn't really deserve to have their investment blow up in their face. and the real nail in the coffin, to me, is that the CRWBY had various members hinting at stuff in their social media posts... which I didn't even know about til pretty recently. if you take CRWBY as a monolith (which I don't, but some might), then the decision to kill off Clover in conjunction with all that posting? kinda makes it seem like the ambiguity lets them be all "it was platonic all along" but only when people end up mad at them. like a "schrodinger's gay" situation, where he's only gay if everyone's cool with it. I understand the nuances that were actually at play, but I can see how someone would get that surface reading off of the situation.
I love how Qrow and Clover just ignored that Tyrian, a crazed psychotic killer with a high body count who Clover was ordered to transport, was not only free but had his weapons and was attacking them.
Like WTF, why were they fighting eachother instead of Tyrian? Why didn't either of them say "Hey let's finish this after the political assassin is back in custody"?
it’s the bad writing!
As a gay man myself, I have a straight best friend. He's like a brother to me and I would die for him/if anything happened to him. We're just friends, nothing more.
I saw LC as a parallel of our relationship. We both make slightly snarky comments at each other, make little flirty jokes sometimes, we have each other's backs, etc. I was basically Qrow to his Clover. He gave me advice when I felt down, stuck by me when I was being a straight up depressing and pessimistic prick, and lifted my spirits overall. And he was the first person I came out to, and he accepted me because it was a human thing.
When I see people bashing CRWBY because they were "supposed to be a gay ship", it breaks my heart. I'm upset that people were angry at this because two dudes onscreen who have a healthy relationship = "they MUST fuck". As if the very concept of friendship between two men is dead. In highschool, people kept accusing us of being "fuck buddies" and boyfriends. A former (let me emphasize: FORMER) friend of ours drew fucking YAOI of us one time. We couldn't hang out together because people would gawk and spread rumors that we fucked.
The more I see this trope in fandoms, the more it pisses me off. Yes, representation of mlm romance is needed, but so is friendships of men that break the boundaries of toxic masculinity that demand men not interact with each other in certain ways, lest they be branded as the dreaded homosexual. There's nothing wrong with two men being friends. It's the angry rabid shippers of the fandom that take it WAY too far and make it a toxic subject.
Overall, I enjoyed it as a platonic friendship and saw it more like my personal relationship with my bff, than I did as a romantic one. It sucks that Clover died, but that's a story choice that the writers made for a reason. I don't believe they need "manuals" on how to write, because it's their story. I do believe that they should be able to write whatever they want without angry fans biting at their heels and demanding their obedience to the fandom. I love representation, but not when it's the product of harassment and toxicity directed at the writers. It should come naturally, without strings attached.
honestly tho. i'm all for mlm representation but i hate the idea that two men can't just be friends.
i really feel for CRWBY, they really didn't deserve the backlash they got from this.
I'm so glad someone said it, because I was about to make this comment myself.
Representation is important and all but at what cost?
I'll admit that I am a straight male, which some people have tried to use as an argument point to discredit my opinion, but I am black so I know what it's like to want more representation. The issue is that I don't want to be catered to. And if Crow and Clover became a thing it wouldve seemed more like tokenism than an actual earned and built relationship. People are not allowed to just be friends, its like any level of care or affection must have romantic inclinations.
I personally still don't like the bumblebee ship. I don't have a problem with a lesbian relationship in the show, I have an issue with the lack of build up it got. People who were so desperate to see the ship started seeing things that weren't there as a way to try and prove and validate it, even if it meant bringing up the most miniscule animation choices (like crow putting his hand on his hip).
They were great friends who went through a lot together, but that doesnt equate to love and romance. I didnt see any real romantic chemistry whatsoever until volume 7 (maybe even later vol. 6) and by that point it felt like pandering.
The reason i bring that up is because it felt like people were starting to do that with crow and clover.
Its really sad, because the second I saw them getting along, I instantly thought, oh no people are going to ship them and theyre going to try and randomly make a gay couple cannon again without proper writing.
And like you said, why can't guys be good friends without them being gay? Its toxic that that's just the automatic assumption. Theres nothing wrong with being gay, but theres also nothing gay about guys just being good close friends either.
And ill ellaborate,
I'm not saying that theres needs to be writing for ship to be gay. Like Jaunes sister's relationshion was a really nice inxlusion. I'm saying id like the writing to at least make the eventual relationship seem plausible by showing chemistry and acual romantic interest.
Because a relationship with minimal buildup is poor writing, and if its for a minority group it just seems like tokenism "we made it gay/interracial/etc... For the sake of it being that way" and while representation is important, I feel like proper representation is more helpful than being there just for the sake of being there.
@@tigerfalco I agree 100%. And even as a bb shipper, i won't be entirely satisfied with it until it gets a better build up. That truck scene where they talked about what happened on that mountain when they killed Adam was great and i want more of that. I want it slow, well written, and have a fantastic reveal.
A simple "im gay for you" kinda throws that out the window. Without proper buildup it comes off as dry. Relationships in shows need a good buildup before they become official. Gay or straight, it's the case with all well written romances.
Lucky charms was good, and i probably woulda shipped it if it didn't directly parallel me and my best friend who i consider a brother. But one season wouldn't be enough for something like that. It took 7 seasons til Renora became official, so i believe time should also be a factor.
I really think CRWBY “riding the fence”, so to speak, is where the issue lies. As a black gay man, I of course would love more representation, but i also agree that Guys should be able to just be friends. There isn’t any canon gay characters in the show but I didn’t realize that until vol 7 with the introduction of Clover.
Upon seeing his interaction with Qrow, I admittedly immediately wanted them to eventually become a canon couple. However, if outwardly stated that they were just friends in show, that would’ve also been perfectly ok because guys can indeed be just really good friends in a healthy platonic relationship and nothing more.
But for them to not only try to pander to both sides by not at least confirming in show where their relationship stood and leaving it to audience interpretation, but to also kill off the sole male potentially gay character (in the WORST fight ever in the show), it personally triggered the big red “Bury Your Gays” flag and pissed me off.
And now knowing that the pilot on the cargo ship transporting Weiss was originally supposed to be gay AND die leads me to think that Clover was supposed to be gay but because of his death flag, they didn’t want to regress back to what prevented them adding a gay character before and fulfilling the “Bury Your Gays” trope as their deaths were planned out and canon. But now that’s 2 for 2: Two characters who were supposed to be gay and got killed off.
I really hope you guys understand my frustration.
@@Stphndotexe there are currently 3 gay people and one trans person in RWBY (Ilia, Saphron, and Terra are gay and May is trans).
Clover was never confirmed to ever be a potential gay character. He was just good friends with Qrow, and it was stated. Multiple times. Nothing "bury your gays" about that. Pilot boy was going to be gay and mention he had a bf back home, but they decided against it because they didn't want to kill off their first gay character. So they wouldn't pull that string with Clover either.
Again, the interpretation of Clover being gay was taken too far. That's why this whole debacle exists, because people believed fanon more than canon.
I understand your frustration, but overall, it's a character who was never stated to be gay or have romantic feelings with Qrow. It was a ship that was taken too seriously. It suck that he died, sure, but it was never intended to be this controversial.
I think the problem was that we have a basis for bromance in the show already: Ren and Jaune, and Sun and Neptune. From the first interaction between them you can see its a bromance, and not a lot more in that time. Sun and Neptune know each other for a long time and make a lot of jokes (and their supposed romance interests in volume 2 do help define this is not exactly romantic), they are still kept as a close pair (mostly. Apart from that one time sun abandons them for blake for a whole volume or two).
Jaune and Ren are the same as Sun and Neptune: can be seen having their moments, but have other romantic interests that point that this pairing isnt going to be explored at that time (if at all, in this case. Which I like because renora is adorable and I love them). Even Jaune and Nora can be said to be a bromance, with Nora being Jaune's wingwoman in volume 3 multiple times.
It was clear they had different routes and this was a building block in their character. Another person to bounce off of for development of both of them.
But here it wasnt that. They were given opposing semblences as a matching pair, had flirty remarks and had clover show off a few times with flips and winks that werent necessary for a bromance. Qrow was still vulnerable from trying to quit alcohol and developing as more then "drunkle does drink and then fights and is awesome" type thing (he is much more then that but you get me, I hope).
Qrow was vulnerable and Clover was there for him, being nice and being a balancing act for his downs, like blake and yang do (whether they are romantic or not I aint getting into it this isnt the comment for that).
Opposing colors (black and white) with a main color that they both have (red, one a shade brighter then the other one) catches your eye and makes you go "hey thats.. odd. They almost look like a married couple, bantering like that". And then you realise they do look like that and the unintended ship sails.
The big problem is that their bromance was put on a full blast because of clover dying at the end of the season which made it look less like normal bromance but more like "tender adults being nice and honest and sharing emotions to the point of vulnerability, while being flirtatious, like a couple would".
Their opposite ends fit nicely in a way that makes people doubt the nature of the relationship.
I personally don't think that Qrow's alcohol recovery was quickly fixed, I just think it was a beginning of a start for him. But I do believe yang's PTSD arc was rushed. You don't have to have things in your face to represent it. But the few times she had shakey hands hindered her in no way. Yang's flashback was the only indication that it hindered her in some way. She never struggled at all after that really, internally or externally. To clarify, I don't mean she should grovel and crumble or anything but even those that tend to push past their trauma as a way of coping have a conflict, with themselves or those around them, in big ways and/or in small ways. Like with me for instance, I got stung by a wasp when I was really young and REALLY struggle with them and bees. I can still function even when passing one although I tense up a bit. I start to panic a bit when I hear buzzing, even when it just a fly and avoid going out in th e spring and honestly avoid flowers and thick patches of grass. These are things I struggle with but I move past, I conduct my life where I can coexist with it. Although I don't show these issues to people and sometimes do end up near flowers since they ARE EVEYWHERE IN MY TOWN, I still struggle. People wouldn't know I have issues with these things unless I told them. Yang can still have confidence and be happy and move past what happened while showing signs, especially when her's was still fresh and they wanted to portray that it had an impact. I don't think the issue is that the impact seemed small but that it was portrayed as if and SHE made it come across as if didn't matter at all. They were building it up, but really didn't cause it was never mentioned or thought about till they met him or when Blake and her held hands in the barn, and it ultimately ended with her treating it like just another fight that didn't matter and it felt like a bad joke. Again she doesnt have to grovel or cry but at least some emotion like hesitation, excess anger but then calming down remembering what her dad said, any emotion other than, I don't care about you dude cause we gotta take care of something bigger than this. Personal character struggles can be just as important or great, sometimes even more so than the actual plot. Just shaking a bit, a small amount of times does nothing and honestly came off as her just needing to get back to form, not as still struggling. And when she interacted with the reason for her trauma, with no build up to this, she didn't seem to care at all. It was built up more for Blake's meeting with him again. Her arm almost and potentially getting torn off again results in an I don't care state from her. And only when he states himself about their previous encounter does she actually seem like she cared and her hand shook a bit till blake held her hand. That's not how people generally respond to their trauma. You don't suddenly start reacting cause someone reminded you it happened when you are right there. It felt like an excuse for yang and Blake to hold hands and "further" their relationship. It didnt feel earned. I'm just baffled because although people do act differently, it was portrayed as something that you can just get over but as soon as the person who affected you reminds you that it happened then you suddenly remember and are actually afraid and then go back to not really caring. It felt half baked and like they didn't know how to deal with the subject
Sorry this is long. Your video was really nice and I'm glad you were open and rational. I personally don't think yang and Blake is all that well written of a pairing and kinda think Blake and Weiss would have been a better written couple or her and sun. But I think Qrow and Clover would have been a cute couple but I had a FEELING clover was gonna die or something so I didn't get too attached to him. I feel like they are trying to represent different people and themes without ACTUALLY delving into them or exploring them. and for some of those it's a little too late to make it as believable as they could have been which is how I feel about bumblebee. There was potential but the waited too long to start fleshing it out. A few moments of them thinking of each other MIGHT have made it a bit more.....palatable but something, you know.
Also yay WINX CLUB
As a ethnic, sexual, and neurological minority I.... Kind of stopped caring about rep? Like, I do and I don’t? I have a complicated opinion on it (basically, I think it’s important for social progress, but it’s not why I watch shows and I look for things deeper than just surface level representation (emotional investment, interesting ideas, competent structure). I’m not saying this to diminish the feelings of those offended by fumbled and/or offensive representation, I’m just stating my stance to preface that my issues with Clover’s death don’t have to deal with representation since my recent brushes with death have showed my that the reaper doesn’t give a damn who you are, my issue has to do with the stupidity of the encounter. However, as a mixed race black bisexual man with Aspergers, I do think that this is still an important video to watch about representation for those who question why others hold it in high regard.
I love this comment. It's real, it feels great, and I totally understand your point of view. My question is did this video help? Did it answer any questions? Are there any you still have?
I'm asking cuz... I'm usually the minority in any given group and I'm trying to learn to communicate why these things matter when people have questions.
Love what you said-but when you said “mixed race black” I-as a black person-was like, “you can just say black we know you have other stuff too. We all do.” XD Besides my quick chuckle at that. I really do love what you said about the whole “issue”. ❤️❤️
@@PharaohOfTheDamned If it helps, a simple way I found to explain why represntation matters is like this: "Media reflects amd shapes society. When media shows minorities as a normal everyday things that exist, it helps people treat them as a normal everyday thing that exists."
House slave ass lmao. Lemme guess, voted for Trump?
@@crazygamer_1082 Self-loathing ass
For what it's Worth, I don't think clover's death was done with his sexuality in mind - rather, I think it would've been done regardless of wether or not Lucky Charms is meant to be implied. Clover dying was fuel for Qrow's subplot. the whole point is to give Qrow hope that he can have a relationship where he doesn't fear for hurting them with his semblance - and then rip it away from him.
I didn't read the interactions between Qrow and Clover as romantic - at least, not yet. I did see the romantic cues and hints the first time around (which i think is progress as a straight dude) but it felt more like romance is something that would've developed in another season or two. in volume 7, its a pure bromance.
But, that's just my takeaway.
It still wouldn't have hurt to be honest and open with RWBY fans about the nature of their relationship.
Yeah, except the show already excessively tortures Qrow enough. Is it too much to ask just let him, and mlm, be happy for once in their fucking life?
@Metsarebuff 22 No, it wasn’t. Great voice acting is never worth gaybaiting and violently killing off one of your only mlm characters.
It was not needed, you could’ve given them a rivalry that actually made sense. Like, maybe he was the one that killed Summer. Or maybe he killed Glynda and that’s why we haven’t seen her in so long. Or maybe their rivalry can come from the fact that Qrow is a Huntsman and Tyrian is *literally a serial killer and escaped convict already*.
@Metsarebuff 22 No, he was definitely something more. The creators themselves have directly encouraged this line of thinking multiple times, even hanging fan art of it on their walls. If they weren’t intended to be romantic, and Clover wasn’t intended to be mlm, then Rooster Teeth Sure fucking failed at that given how many mlm people saw him and were like “oh there’s def something there.”
Qrow’s development didn’t really need “expanding”. It was going fine to begin with until they derailed it randomly with no actual buildup.
Fuck you, jackass. “Hey he killed one of the only actual minority characters in the cast but he said a cool line so it’s okay, representation and feelings of the gay and bi men that feel exploited and baited be damned”.
I personally saw them as a bromance, but I could see the romantic implications. As for Clover being resurrected, I don't think thats going to happen, what with the whole reason Salem became who she is by trying to cheat death, so I doubt the staff would bring anybody back.
Also why did no one ever call the ship Qrover? It's a perfectly good pun right there but nobody ever took it.
The RWBY fandom doesn't really do portmanteau ship names outside of Arkos and Renora.
@@IndianaJoneFan24 I know, but this one was just sitting there on a silver platter, why do those get combo?
They better resurrect him. That’s the only way they can salvage this mess.
so far ive only heard of this, lucky charm and fairgame
Jaune and Ren and Sun and Neptune don't wink at each other.
I'm aro ace and I was picking up on Lucky Charms. However being aware of Qrow's semblance and general story patterns and tropes knew whatever happened with Clover was going to end in tears and probable betrayal one way or another.
Honestly, it could have been platonic or romantic to me., although I was rooting for the latter They did handle it poorly and i'm glad you articulated the problems people had with it. It isn't as simple as a ship people liked was cut off. I think they will learn from it and be more careful in the future, as I don't think anyone with half a brain genuinely believes Rooster Teeth is a homophobic company.
Unfortunately, LGBT people in media have an inherent political aspect in their existence (which is stupid) to both the left and right, and need to be handled in certain ways. I hate that this is the case, I'm a gay guy and long for the days when I don't have to deal with people asking for proof of a gay characters sexuality early in the story, but then complaining when they do get it as pandering and call you an SJW if you point out the idiocy in this. Then there are those people who take any perceived slight out of proportion, which I am glad you did not do even if this did frustrate you, by screaming and abusing people, most of the time people who had no choice in the matter. I loved the LGBT representation so far because it didn't make a big deal out of it at all, any scene could have been done exactly the same with straight characters. It's ridiculous that our mere appearance in media is political, and I hope that one day none of these issues will exist.
This problem was most likely caused by poor communication and handling, which does happen. I think the Oscar scene where he punched Neo was meant to be much more sudden, but due to the hallway design, it was animated as a little ridiculous, a good example of how sometimes the different areas of a company or group are not completely autonomous. Sometimes these things happen, the important thing is that CRWBY learn from it, and that people don't turn in morons and start abusing people for what was almost certainly an honest mistake.
I also feel the need to say that this didn't bother me that much when it occurred, and while I do think it was a mistake on CRWBYs part, it doesn't make me that angry. However, I do entirely understand the frustrations people have with it
You know what would really be amazing?
Two guys. Both are LGBT
They *don't* hook up and are just platonic.
Nobody makes a fuss about it.
That's an entirely plausible scenario in real life, and yet in fiction, LGBT are flanderized to the point that their sexuality is the only part of their personality that exists. *By the people who claim to stand up for them.*
I dislike representation because I don't think it actually represents anything other than hubris, a lack of self awareness, and anything but real human beings.
Ironically, the most accurate representation of a gay person ever devised is the way in which straight people are presented. Because their orientation isn't blown out of proportion as a defining attribute of their character.
I can understand what it's like to be excluded and discriminated against. I had this in my own life despite not standing out at all in terms of sexuality or race relative to my surroundings. This gave me this bizarre sense of entitlement. I wanted everyone else to change in order to suit me. Completely ignoring whether or not what I demanded was valid, it's nevertheless clear to me that a large part of my inability to fit in came from my own unwillingness to understand the situation and my own insistence of separating myself from other people as I increasingly began to identify with my isolation.
The hard fact that I was unwilling to accept, was that there are ways of being that are genuinely unusual and difficult for the majority to embrace.
One way or another, LGBT people are always going to stand out and be different, as they sometimes enjoy presenting themselves as being. But by that same token, they will always be treated differently. There's no getting around it.
I will always be strange, but I can always make a better effort to adapt and not self isolate by being in too strongly to my differences.
I will never be a conformist either. But my connection to other people has made me understand that there are sacrifices to my own individuality worth making in order to be apart of a group and with people I value.
@@amanofnoreputation2164Oh my god this comment is insufferable.
I will say part of that whole “lesbians are more acceptable because straight guys can fetishize it.” Thing also comes from how many people I see and in my friends group who are mostly straight or bi males, sees it.
When Owl house and She Ra and steven Universe had lesbians it was trumpets time. Doesn’t matter if poison Ivy was cheating on Kite man cause Yes my queens are kissing sort of deal.
But m/m pairings in kids and teen cartoons? Until I asked I didn’t know about Kipo and the wonder beats having one. The one in steven universe is drowned out by all the lesbian space rocks talk despite the aliens having no actual gender. And yeah they are just used as background characters for being some other side character’s fathers.
Live action does have more I think but I never actually see those celebrated either. That sort of thing is why when stuff like Bumblebee is confirmed and becomes big trending news in the animation community some get soured cause the best guys got to see other guys that is explicitly gay with actual characters in many episodes is Shiro from Voltron.....now I feel like I gotta listen to “kurts turn” from glee for some reason
And Keep in mind for Kipo, Benson's LI was a side character who only got to shine in the third and final season of the show. Benson was great though.
And Shiro's oh lord...there is a Reason why the pairing was only talked about NEGATIVELY and why the pairing is so unpopular...granted, when you sideline an MC and pair him with a minor chara who was not named, has no interaction, and wasn't even the original husband, yeah you're not gonna get much positive response.
I think the lack of mlm has something to do with the ideas of traditional masculinity. Men are looked down on for having feelings, having empathy, and caring for the people around them, whether they're gay or straight. So when a show wants to portray a mlm couple, it gets pushed under the rug. Though it is interesting to think about: while shows themselves can sometimes lack in mlm, fandom culture is usually the one to really create and prop them up, which is why I think people think mlm is a lot prevalent than it actually is.
My issue with Bumblebee isn't at all that it exists it's that it seemingly from my perspective came out of nowhere. They had nearly 2 entire chapters where Blake and Sun seemed to be starting something even writing him to meet her parents and having him accepted by them and then suddenly next chapter essentially pretend none of the build up happened and now she's gay.
Basically it just came across as sudden and confusing.
Actually there is buildup if you bother to pay attention and listen to the Bumblebee shippers.
I don't think it came out of nowhere, but they should have focused on that instead of trying to go the Sun x Blake route. Sun can still be Blake's friend, but they needed to clarify that, and maybe do something different with Sun as a character, instead of a love interest focused on Blake for no good reason.
right ? their ( blake and yang ) relationship was sisterly and filled with friendly bonding that is normal between girls , a couple of hundreds of toxic shippers later , they're gay
Bi*
It did come out of nowhere. Don't ever listen to pathetic BB fans lol. "Uh actually in V1 they looked at eachother for 1.2 seconds and they obviously had marry eye's".
Wasn't planned.. Blacksun was.. then RT saw the OCEAN of fans backing Yang and Blake as a ship because this disgusting fanbases LOVES lesbian ships.
Honestly, bisexual transgirl here, and I think that the criticism that sapphic pairings are more readily accepted- *in media representation* -is entirely fair. I don't think it's healthy to come to conclusions like "gay women are worse off than gay men". Gay women and gay men deal with different forms of marginalization, just like trans men and trans women, and it trivializes the complex intersectional nature of homophobia to try to compare oppressions and conclude that one is "lesser".
I love seeing lesbians in my cartoons, but I don't think we can reasonably deny that they are a lot more common than gay guy couples. We have, what, Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts? Mr. Ratburn in Arthur? Two side characters in She-Ra? For sapphic couples, I'm thinking of Owl House, LoK, Steven Universe, She-Ra, Batman TAS, My Little Pony... lots of high-profile lesbians or "as lesbian as the censors allow". Outside cartoons, Buffy the Vampire Slayer featured multiple lesbian characters, but the only gay guy is a minor character whose gayness is mostly a joke who dies in Season 3.
Gay guys *do* clearly have more trouble getting represented. I'm glad lesbians get so much rep, but let's not pretend that the Male Gaze, and toxic masculine gay panic, haven't both played parts in that.
(To be clear, I'm using "lesbian" as a synonym for "sapphic" here, not specifically to refer solely to exclusive lesbians. It's a spectrum and sometimes words are more adjective than noun.)
Seven months later, I do want to make one clarification: Lesbian women obviously face intersecting forms of oppression that gay men don't face. That said, I don't think it's healthy to compare like that. They face different problems.
I do like the ship of Bumblebee (yes I know its not the topic of the video), but I feel like it was not an organic relationship from the start. When I first saw Yang helping out Blake in Volume 2, I viewed as them being friends looking out for each other and Yang playing up to be the older sister to the Team Rwby. Yang doesn't really show interest in Blake (in my opinion) and starts to dislike her from volume 4 to volume 6 due to the fact that she left her when she at her most vulnerable just like her mother did. Blake tries to redeem herself to Yang is actually really good since she wants to prove that she won't run away again in Volume 6. Then at the end of their fight with Adam, where they hug each other out was to more accept the fact that they both gotta over their traumas from Adam (Blake not running away and Yang getting over her PTSD or so) as friends. Also talking about Clover, I felt he was more of what Qrow used to be when he worked under Ozpin and that they can get along as friends since they know how it is to serve under someone.
I mean, one could note the vehemence of Yang's response compared against Ruby or Weiss to be an indicator that the feelings she had for Blake were deeper than those that Ruby or Weiss had for Blake. It's not that she disliked her, but she felt the most betrayed because Blake meant the most to her. Unless you're taking her repeated statements that she *TOTALLY* doesn't care about Blake leaving at face value, it's pretty clear that what Yang is displaying isn't dislike, it's pain at losing someone she loves.
Of course, this also ignores that the lyrics of Red Like Roses Part 1 cast Blake as the Beast who descends from shadows, while Yang is the Yellow Beauty that burns gold. So before the show even started, there were aspects of it that foreshadowed a romantic pairing between the characters of Blake and Yang, so I don't think there's anything inorganic about it.
@Andrew Gray I'm amazed that people read Blake kidding Sun chastely on the cheek as the beginning of something rather than the end. And I'm not sure how one can read Beauty and the Beast as not romantic, but it takes all kinds.
No ship in RWBY is organic. We call antis homophobic because they hyperfocus on BB
@Andrew Gray Blake bailed to save Yang lol. Does being a bigot ever get tiring?
I've loved qrow ever since we met him, from volume 3 onward I thought I would never see him again. I love that we continued to grow, the relationship they made between qrow and clover (romance or not) was amazing and it shew a grow on a character just from when they interacted. Comparing it to how he interacted in volume 2 and 3 with people. Keeping to himself, finally opening up to someone, and just as they show in the final episode "the fear of growling close to someone" I think this also relates to qrows story as a whole, team STRQ as an example and then clover. Showing that he struggles to grow close to people because it always ends terribly.
I am honestly most interested in how they will take his arc as I still love his character and will. I just hope crwby don't screw him over.
Also 22:34 is a big mood
Honestly the whole theme of the season was pretty much about trust
I keep thinking you mean MLM like as in Multi-level marketing Pyramid Schemes ;-;
"Is representation really worth it even if the representation is tokenism?"
And that's the question that is ignored. At some point U.O.W states serveral things people argue against rwbys representation. One of those is good writing. I've said I enjoyed saffron and terracotta. They felt natural and played their role in the plot. Ilia honestly is tokenism especially given her whole backstory is in Atlas but they dump her cause 1) they screwed up the faunus discrimination plot for a rich vs poor arc 2) her voice actress cost to much. Lucky charms is never a confirmed ship. At all. So this turns into a pointless video. We don't see romance and well clover is dead in one of the dumbest fights in all of rwby. Seriously how anyone tries to justify tyrian qrow vs clover is retarded.
@@AnimeIsArt21 i agree. I know Qrow was pushed up against a wall, and he may not be the goodest of do-gooders, but even he wouldn't stoop as low as to team up with Tyrian (someone he not only has a grudge with, but was fighting earlier in the same volume WITH Clover), especially when he knows Tyrian is the bigger threat and needs to be taken care of. As a seasoned Huntsman he should've had that ingrained in him so much it didnt matter if it was a 3 way free for all.
Better than ignoring these demographics entirely.
@@jasonjason9270 ur simple ass reply is stupid. We were discussing the quality of representation and inserting LGBT characters at a higher standard so that you can be proud of them. But you clearly are happy w any representation even if its shit but act as if it's good.
@@AnimeIsArt21 You clearly don't know how to make a compelling argument without insulting people. Why don't you take some time and try again when you're ready to engage in a mature and respectful discussion?
As a writer (I Native American, Lakota. I am also Bisexual and suffer from mental illness)...
This is one reason why I hesitate to really talk or publish my material.
I completely understand the desire from representation and cool characters doing great things. Etc.
I fear, that I would make mistakes. Cause honestly. Characters die, and it's because of the world they have been born in
And other characters are. Complex
I don't want backlash, because I already get judgement for my race, gender, orientation and mental illness
So I keep my project between myself, my siblings and my best friend
At this point, I not watching for the romance, it's not what I signed up for, I signed up for a badass girl with a sniper scythe and rose petal powers, when they introduced qrow and seeing his weapon I full I did get attached, and wanted good stuff to happen for him. But when they introduced clover I was kinda like either they become really good friends or maybe date. But like I said I didnt sign up for romance so it wasnt a priority. What I take from this, I'm upset to see a good character go. He could've have offered more to the show, I would have liked to see his and qrow's sembalance explained and used in more full. (Also thank fucking shits they gave us a qrow scythe fight but at what cost?)
What's the problem with romance?
As a bisexual, my only gripe with this kinda stuff is when representation is done to fill a sort of "minority quota." Like, I wanna feel like my sexuality being represented does more than just result in a bunch of straight guys in a room clinking champagne glasses saying, "Congratulations gentlemen, we've fixed homophobia!" For example, I feel like Ilia was a good example of representation. Her being bi wasn't just her character, it was part of it. Jaun's sister on the other just felt like CRWBY going, "Hey guys! Look!! A gay!" Even if that may have not been their intent, that's certainly how it came across. Likewise, I'm not a huge fan of retroactively making a character LGBT for the sake representation. Feels a lot more pandering that way.
I agree with this actually Ilia was perfect example of getting proper representation,Im not gay or bi myself but Illia was a character I genuinely liked. While on the other hand jaune's sister was just that "hey guys look lesbians." Thats how yang and blake are currently as well. I am pretty sure that the main 4 girls were supposed to be just friends. I don't have any proof because it was a long time ago and I'm not gonna sully a dead mans name like everyone else likes to,however the voice actress of blake tends to have to much say in her character sometimes. Then again can't expect much from the writers either as they also blamed the fact there white for having a bad racism plot.
Do you not realize how that sounds? If Jaunes sister had a husband would you have thought they were saying “look straights!”?
@@Savannah_Simpson Rather you like it it or not gay lesbian and bi is a minority. It wouldn't have matyer if they were random passerbies but they have some semblance of ot remblance. Other then giving a house to the gang they offer nothing other then hey were gay. Same thing with blake and yang they don't offer anything to the story anymore other then hey guys were lesbian.
@@Savannah_Simpson one more thing I hate it when stories do that with straights to if they add only the fact their a straight couple.
vimain Wow, how do gay people in real life react when you tell they’re gayness better have a purpose? Though I’m guessing from your attitude you know very few gay people. There doesn’t need to be a reason for a character to be gay any more than there does for a character to be straight. Thats just how people are. That’s my point.
But why show a struggle if we can't see a character go through it and it being resolved off screen
"RWBY is a Magical Girl anime" is a statement so woke my third eye opened and now my room is filled with sparkles and aurora borealis
A...Aurora Borealis?! At THIS time of year, at THIS time of day, in THIS part of the country, localized ENTIRELY within your bedroom?!
I actually liked this paring,
But it doesn’t matter cause Clovers fookin *d e a d*
Qick quow was touched by hill lets ship them 33:37 its canon now .
@@toddstaples7019 Oversimplifying shipping like this is just part of the problem
@@NarakunoHana100 He's not wrong. That's why this non existent ship was such a big deal. Literally two dudes being friends is pushed as a gay relationship. Qrow and Clover had less than 50 speaking lines together.. they literally barely spoke.
Honestly the moment I saw Clover I knew he was going to die either later in the show or in another volume but I never saw his relationship with Qrow romantic at all I saw it more as Clover is showing Qrow that he can lean onto people and find that even when bad things happen good things can still happen ( this is how I saw this relationship ) Clover was a really cool character and interesting as much as I’d love for him to be in at least one more volume I’m ok with it I see his death as something for Qrow to learn and grow
3:45 I disagree with your statement here. If anything, I'd say it was just like every other theme/social commentary/plot point/character arc/world building element that the writers tried to tackle: they never committed to it!
Yang's PTSD is reduced to her shaking her hand from time to time, but it never hinders her daily life or combat skills like would in a case like this. Go search for any documentary about war veterans who lost their limbs and see how they detail their lives when they were brought back to the civil life. This is on the same level of Samus' PTSD in Other M - it shows up only during that infamous Ridley scene, but never prior or after that.
Same with Qrow's alcoholism. It is not easy to let go of an addiction, and given Qrow's personality, past failures, loss of trust in the only person he believed blindly in, he should be struggling far more with that decision. His character should be dealing with withdrawal symptoms, temptation to return to the thing that eases the pain, and that in turn should have made the characters around him respond to that shift in his behavior.
But neither of these concepts were properly addressed. In the end, RWBY is a show about cool concepts, but no commitment to any one of those ideas introduced in the show. They merely scratch the surface to make the audience think there's something deep and thought provoking there! Same thing with representation: the show has its share of lesbians and some gay hints sprinkled here and there, but they never commit to tell a story with those elements. They're just background noise! And yes, that includes Bumblebee!
This time on Unicorn of war: It Keeps going.
"Thomas: Who gave the Gremlin a megaphone?
Weiss: You're under arrest."
That's my fave part still. xD
The only problem with representation is a problem that RWBY has avoided. That problem is identity swapping in lieu of making new characters. RWBY is nothing, but new characters. In other words, they are doing representation correctly because every group deserves original characters. Changing a pre existing character is condescending because its the creative table scraps. Original characters are a fresh course for any group that receives it.
Yes! This is what they’ve been avoiding. Miraculous Ladybug, A KIDS SHOW has better representation! They actually treat characters with colored skin like normal people. LGBTQ+ are given attention too, but they aren’t used as plot devices.
@@skrrtskrrt4681 That's good to hear. A great many people who advocate for representation seemed to miss the normal in normalization. In order for people to be normalized, they have to be treated as normal people. That's acceptance right there.
Once again i recommend the She-ra reboot which has lbgtq characters, but make them actual characters written like any straight character where it doesn't define them
@@Pooky1991 What's wrong with being gay defining you?
We never got confirmation Qrow is solely straight lol
I'm not a huge fan of the Bumblebee ship...actually, that's an understatement. I straight up don't like it. Mostly because Blake has better chemistry and an overall better dynamic with characters like Sun and Ilia, whereas Yang has a good relationship/chemistry with....honestly, no one but her Dad. Yang's had nothing but lackluster relationships with everyone around her while Blake has had better built relationships with other characters.
Having those two suddenly decide they're in love just feels like a downgrade for Blake and a contrived way of a giving Yang someone to have meaningful interactions with (because lord knows she hasn't been getting any of that from her uncle or her sister). That's Bumblebee in a nutshell. Contrived. Even worse than Korrasami (I still think she should have ended up with Bolin but that's a discussion for a different day). The fact that it seems to be the CRWBY's OTP makes the lack of effort in it even worse.
I literally would have no gripes with Bumblebee if it was written like Blacksun in the Becon arc. The writers seem to have no problems with establishing romantic overtones for Blake and Sun, but when it's Yang and Blake we have to settle for "subtlety", a wink, and the end of a dance before being handed off to someone else. Like, I get it, there are hints and they have good chemistry, but come on, it wasn't until the beginning of volume seven where I felt like they had anything close to the romantic chemistry as Blake and Sun in volume one.
Then again I watch the show pretty passively so any "hints" until then flew right over my head. But it can't be denied that the show knows how to do blatanly romantic scenes and didn't have to balls to go all out until six seasons in.
I really love your positive takes and the personality behind it while not being projective. This is great content and just pleasant.
I think some of the best shows I've seen recently that have really good representation are RWBY and The Dragon Prince.
The Dragon Prince has several interracial couples, including the parents of 2 of the main characters. The other interracial couple is lesbian and they have a daughter. The third main character's adoptive parents are a gay couple, too. Plus the story is really good, highly recommend.
The only question I have about the two queens having a daughter is that, doesn't that make the daughter technically a bastard? If so, how is she eligible to become queen herself?
@@rachelg492 I believe she was adopted. The daughter does end up becoming the queen, but I won't give the details cuz I don't want to spoil the show for anybody interested in watching it.
@@rachelg492 I mean if someone was given a title of princess by both queens, doesn't that automatically given them the ruler ship by default? It's like if someone marrying a queen or king in other stories they become a co-ruler as well.
Also, there are also lore reason about the ruler of the human kingdom in the story as well.
This "ship" has always had red flags around it for me, on a personal level. On one hand, I feel like the LGBT community tends to be it's own worst enemies when it comes to representation a lot of times. I'm a gay, black guy that likes paintball, weightlifting, has a deep voice, etc. I can't tell you how many times, since I came out, that I'd get weird looks and told "that's not normal/ that's too masculine for a gay guy"..... by other gay guys. So the moment people started shipping Qrow and Clover together, I instantly knew that it'd backfire and get a lot of backlash, both from the LGBT community and straights. But MOSTLY from the LGBT community.....
Yes, it turns out the LGBT+ community are going to have criticisms when you mishandle your LGBT+ representation. I’m sorry others try to stereotypically label you, but that is not the same as genuinely critiquing a show for its failures
@@ravenfrancis1476 you’ve been running around calling anyone that doesn’t like “Fair Game” a homophobic monster.
Kindly grow up. For your sake.
I personally, as a bi woman, feel frustrated. I personally felt Bumblebee was rushed after all the time setting up Blacksun in seasons 4 and 5, Ilia was left in unrequited love territory, Jaune’s sister and wife were only unimportant side characters. Clover and Qrow to me felt like they could’ve been a well developed gay romance involving an important character, only for Clover to die. It just kinda reminds me of Adam and Shiro from Voltron. All build up, no pay off.
BB is the opposite of rushed, they've been dragging their feet forever.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69why not both?
@@alexrussell6399 They rushed to it in two volumes then dragged their feet for six
"And by whiskey I mean pizza, soda, and all eight seasons of Winx Club" - that got me to LOL! Thanx!
My biggest revelation in this video was that Qrow doesnt wear his necklace with the new outfit. Sorry, but.. i loved it so much! How did I not notice?
I think that Qrow and Clover just didn't have enough time together to establish anything more than a friendly, somewhat vulnerable dynamic. They care about each other, that much is clear, but they haven't had enough dialogue, enough time together to really deepen or define their relationship further.
16:32
(TL;DR at the end)
I heard that argument too
But to be applied to the series, dating between the main cast of characters can cause the creators to focus too much on the relationship of two people rather that’s the relationship of the team
And I’m not saying that I can’t be done because it can
It’s just that Roosterteeth hasn’t put given us a heart to heart moment and I know they can because of the endings of season 1 and 2 of Camp Camp (I have watched any other seasons if there are more) which I swear to god almost had me in tears because Max was a little shit head throughout the entire series but these two endings especially the second had me almost if not crying and not only that but with the character depth that we get from Season 2 finale everything clicks
All of his swearing and bad attitude was all because of his parents
I wanted to use that example because that is a very hard subject to handle... made in a series that supposed to be comedic
Yet here with a series that’s supposed to be dark and menacing, the subjects are covered with no where near the same care (the scene with Ironwood’s PTSD is perfect and is in the safe zone)
But everything else has been handled with no care
It would’ve been great back in volume 4 or 5 to see Blake looking at a picture of the team with Yang crying over it or at least show something that she misses Yang but there is absolutely nothing
And it’s really bad in 5, 6, and 7
TL;DR
For a series that supposed to dark and series it takes care of its sensitive subject matter like it a joke.
(Being a TH-camr would make all of this writing worth it lol)
(Also sorry for the rant and for it not making sense)
I agree with a a good majority I would’ve just reworded some things though
Last edit: I was genuinely pissed at how they have controlled their LGBT characters
I honestly want leagues better not just from Roosterteeth but for the film industry as a whole
I myself am one of RWBY's WLW fans and I agree with most of the arguments made here. I personally read Qrow and Clover's interactions as platonic, but I can also 100% see why some fans (especially MLM ones) would think otherwise. I don't agree with Clover being brought back to live for the same reasons you mentioned. I'm a writer myself, so I know that resurrection has a very fine line in storytelling between being a good idea and a terrible one, as you said it many times can take away the stakes because it makes it feel as though if a character dies it doesn't matter since they can just be brought back again. In addition to that, I like the idea of Clover's arrogance backfiring since most of the volume he relied heavily on his semblance, seemingly believing that it would prevent ANYTHING bad from happening to him at all, so him dying due to this, from a fellow writer's perspective, was pretty good. I do agree though that before that episode CRWBY should have made an announcement that Lucky Charms would not become canon as anything more than a bromance.
No, Clover needs to come back to life. That is the only way they can salvage this mess. It's way worse from a writers perspective to kill a gay character off than it is to bring sdmeone back from the dead.
@Metsarebuff 22 He May not be explicitly confirmed to be gay, but he was damn sure hinted to be some form of mlm through his relationship with Qrow and the staff’s constant egging on of the ship without any effort to actually address the issue.
Also, yes, killing off gay characters is BYG. That’s literally what BYG is. It’s not just randomly killing LGBT+ characters (though again Clover’s death was random and nowhere near as important to the story as you’re saying it was), it’s a blanket term for any LGBT+ characters. And yes, it’s also a problem when GRRM does it, but we’re not talking about that piece of shit edgelord we’re talking about RWBY.
And what? No it wouldn’t. Characters have been brought back from the dead before (hi Penny!) and probably will be again after Clover is hopefully brought back. Resurrection is pretty much the only way they can fix this shit show. Well that, and an actual sincere apology that wasn’t just blaming us for getting upset at their “genius” writing.
@Metsarebuff 22 No, they don’t. Straight men don’t have a bond like Qrow and Clover did. Literally every gay man I’ve talked to picked up on super strong subtext about their relationship. Literally all of Clover’s screen time was spent flirting with Qrow.
No, killing off gay characters is always bad. Maybe in a few hundred years when we have roughly the same representation as Cishet people you could get away with this but we don’t, so you shouldn’t rob us of what little rep we do have even if you’re such an uncreative hack that ‘death’ is the only way out of a story. And no, it doesn’t. I’m not a big fan of the She-Ra reboot, but that’s a show that gives its LGBT+ characters plot armor but maintains its suspense because it doesn’t let on that they have any.
Also, easy way to resurrect him. Staff of Creation. Wanna maintain the stakes? Make it so that they only get to resurrect one person. Boom. Years.
@Metsarebuff 22 Sure, But when they openly wink and flirt with each other they’re clearly not straight.
“Wahhhh trans people wont have to worry about their only representation in the show getting violently murdered!!1!” I swear to god it’s like you ignore all my actual points and just bring up the same shit. We *can’t* be treated as normal if we’re constantly baited and killed, and then told we’re in the wrong for feeling baited. (Also Miles saying Qrow and Clover were “friends” doesn’t actually clarify anything because loads of romantic relationships are between friends). Let’s put it this way. If you were in a contest to see who could build the tallest LEGO tower, and your opponent got a 30 minute head start, and the judges took a bat to your tower every five seconds, do you think that you’d actually get any progress on the tower made? No?
Or to use an actual real world example: wheelchair ramps! By your logic that’s not treating people that use wheelchairs “equally” because it’s giving them something able-bodied people don’t also have, so it’s bad right? Sometimes “equality” isn’t the solution. Sometimes equity is the solution.
It’s not like RWBY’s any stranger to controversial writing decisions. Only now instead of portraying civil rights groups as violent evil terrorists the controversy would stem from them actually listening to the feedback from their LGBT+ audience, so they’d be in the right here. Even from a cynical business perspective and completely disregarding any morals whatsoever it’s the least they could do to try to clear up the massive PR nightmare that this whole incident was.
@Metsarebuff 22 It does when that joking is literally just flirting.
“I’m against LGBT+ characters dying at a higher rate but I’m also against doing anything to stop that”. It doesn’t lower the tension, especially if you don’t know the character has plot armor (like my She-Ra example, none of their LGBT+ characters die but it still carries a lot of narrative tension).
You say “say goodbye to major television villains like Gus Fring” as if that’s a bad thing lmao yes I want less gay villains and gay deaths. I don’t care if it’s limiting for cishet writers who only know how to kill us off, they shouldn’t be writing us.
No, most people have not moved on. Most people are still fuckin pissed at em. I’m in a group chat on Discord full of em.
And no, Eddy’s apology wasn’t sincere in the slightest. It was a half-assed “I’m sowwy u feel that way uwu” without actually addressing why people feel that way or promising to do better. And they’ve routinely belittled and tone policed the fans that felt baited - even comparing wanting a gay coded man to not get the most violent death in the show to a bunch of people angry they didn’t get a goddamn shopping montage. They haven’t taken any sort of personal responsibility that they haven’t immediately shifted to the fans for having feelings and criticizing them too hard.
You’d stop watching if they actually listened to their LGBT+ fans instead of their own fragile cishet egos? Yeah you’re part of the problem with why LGBT+ representation is so low. Dumbass cishets that think their billionth story about a gay couple dying or breaking up is far more important than actually listening to the people they’re trying to represent.
Gonna be real here? While I do enjoy Clover? (He’s dead in body, not in spirit) only problem I had with the lucky charms/fair game was how it seemed Clover was being a little pushy. I get he’s trying to help and applaud that. But when you add flirting to that? Kinda does add misunderstandings. Especially if you are a person who needs time to open up
I personally think that this an excellent video, even though I personally disagree with a lot of your opinions, this is a conversation that needed to be had about representation in RWBY and western media in general and I completely agree with you and Alex that RWBY really does take after magical girl shows more than shonen, as far as transformation senquences go... Monty just chose to do it with everyone's (named) weapons.
Why do gay people bother you so much?
I saw Crow and Clover as a very important relationship, that could evolve to romantic or keep it platonic, but a very important relationship to Crow independent if evolved or not. So.... In my opinion, even if was CLEAR it was a platonic thing, the end still was traumatizing ;-; specially if you count with all the aro people who would appreciate a platonic representation...
I usually don't comment on videos but the quote "Because I hate alcohol but I need something unhealthy to cope with." Is such a mood that I can totally understand.
Ever since Volume 1 there's been a stigma that two characters having a close-ish and or beneficial relationship automatically means shipping, and while I liked what came out of it, I wouldn't call "Lucky Charms" canon, nor would I have ever considered it to be them being gay. It was a very Gon-Killua situation, where it didn't feel right to just yeet the two into a couple just because they had antithetic Semblances and Clover had a positive influence on Qrow as a character.
On a personal note, I don't feel like representation is a necessity, because I'm confident I could easily recognize a valid ship when I see one(I watch anime for christ's sake, gays and lesbians surprisingly abound in the medium), and from what I can see, it would be detrimental to BOTH characters to simply characterize their relationship as them being romantically interested in one another, because that inherently points out:
- Clover was doing the things he was doing with either the goal or indirect motivation of romance, thus lessening his role as an ADULT Paragon(which I feel was slightly wasted since he and Ruby didn't get a lot of screen time together, but I digress).
- Qrow wasn't actually changing due to influence, but rather because of romantic pressure.
- That the only reason there was a meaningful connection between the two was because of the underlying romance. Which is a pretty bad theme for the show because it suggests that Lancaster might eventually be a thing(and those would be dark days).
- It has an implication that CRWBY either doesn't understand, or doesn't WANT to understand the things I stated above about adult men needing to be in a space with other adult men. Qrow spent every last Volume up to 7 being the only real adult in the setting outside of Maria(who's just a child in an old lady body) and Lionheart. Clover being the first really decent man he's met in a while alleviates a lot of the pressure from him.
Side note, anyone who says that two guys caring for one another is "gay" clearly has either never had a best friend before, or they grew up as a toxic and *legitimate* homophobe.
What's often lost in more modern media is the positive relationships between men, not guys, not boys, but between two adult males; one of whom is in a not-so-good situation, and maybe just needed a positive influence to get him through that bad time.
EDIT: I just want to clarify that I would have had no qualms with Qrow having a male partner, I just feel like there should have been more emphasis put on the peer-relationship rather than the romantic one.
Double Edit: Unicorn pretty much said everything I said here in like the first 6 minutes, I just have a more negative affinity toward it ending up as a ship.
Triple Edit: I think the negative stigma around Blake and Yang is that in Volume 5 they went and showed a weird prioritization thing where they only seemed to focus on each other, and were kinda- off from the rest of the group(which doesn't really make sense, but same/similar principle as still being lonely in a house full of people).
RWBY has plenty positive relationships between men lol
Representation IS a neccesity, this ain't some passion project, it's corporate. It should aim to please as much as it can. Spoken like a true straight.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Bit late to the party(a whole year late) and not only that but your argument is functionally ad hominem.
Firstly, RWBY as a show has very little in the way of actually representing peer-relationships between men and women. My entire point in my comment was that I was pointing out how detrimental it is for Qrow and Clover to be the ones to end up together, because it completely changes the entire dynamic of their relationship and makes it kind of toxic.
Secondly, representation is in no way a necessity for any demographic. It never has, never will, and it never should be.
Thirdly, for your information, I'm bisexual. Checkmate heterophobe.
@@silverbro13 Lol what? Jaune and Nora? Nora and Oscar? Pietro and Maria? Robyn and Qrow (hopefully)? Emerald and Mercury (probably)? RUBY AND JAUNE?! You just blow in from stupid town or something?
Clover makes Qrow happy, how is that toxic? Is every gay relationship toxic to antis? Yall said this shit about BB too, Jaune and Pyrrha was toxic. Jaune and Weiss was especially toxic. Not these two when they better each other and compliment the other.
You can be bi and still be homophobic. And lol muh heterophobia. Straight people aren't oppressed. And I doubt you're bi, it's way too convenient everyone I shit on who says homophobic shit is secretly LGBT. Conservatives are known to pretend to be minorities to spread bigotry too.
@@silverbro13 Of course your self-loathing ass would say representation doesn't matter. When it does.
Honestly I never saw lucky charms as a full relationship. I hope it would be but in my mind it never got to be. This looked more like they were both unsure of what the relation ship was and were just chilling because their jobs were more important at the time. It just never got to progress. My biggest issue isn't even the bury the gays thing because I never saw it as that. My issue was Qrow deciding to embody his fairytale and fucking ditch his brain in that fight. That score to settle shit came ut of nowhere and just seemed like an excuse to have a death which is utter bullshit. I hated that fight on a narrative level because Qrow should've teamed with Cloverin that fight because obviously Tyrion was a higher priority target and Clover and Qrows fight should've come after they caught tyrion. Maybe Qrow could've killed him in a blind rage after unknowingly breaking his aura. Or hell maybe Tyrion just kills him in their fight with his aura breaking semblance. I just hated the team up becaue it was such an obvious trap.
Qrow actually did assume he'd be teaming up with Clover vs Tyrian at first, the second our scorpion pal makes his appearance Qrow immediately turns on him, leaving his back open to Clover as though he's no longer an enemy. CLOVER's the one who abused this trust, not once, but twice, by attacking Qrow instead of Tyrian and putting Qrow in a really shitty position because of it. Clover forced the stalemate between Qrow and Tyrian by continuing to target Qrow despite several opportunities to take down the serial killer instead.
While there were many questionable decisions in that fight from ALL parties (WTF Qrow, just fly off, you don't have to fight anyone at all), him teaming up with Tyrian momentarily wasn't one of them. It was literally life or death, Qrow can't sustain a 2v1 vs Tyrian and Clover. And if Clover's not gonna pair up with him (even AFTER Tyrian made the offer, Clover still struck at Qrow), then he's forced to choose the other.
@@SheenaMalfoy Qrow at this point also wanted to keep Robyn from being brought to Atlas, wich she in all likelihood would be after she tried to attack Clover
I’m sorry but I strongly disagree with you on the Yang’s PTSD.
It didn’t hinder her at all during that battle with Adam. She was kicking his ass thoroughly through out that entire fight.
She wasn’t strongly at all or desperately trying to overcome the “fear” she had towards Adam. Her fist shaking means absolutely nothing when it served no purpose.
Her fist shaking was to show her PTSD, the fact she's not perpetually in fear of him dosent mean she doesn't have PTSD from the event involving him
@@brianbrush5107 As someone who has PTSD, shaking fists really doesn't mean a whole lot. My hands shake when I'm excited, sometimes, but that's about it. I know everyone handles it in their own way, but shaking fists, is really a big nothing on its own.
@@brianbrush5107 she was literally having nightmares about him. She would literally jump at the mere sight of him. Her PTSD made it difficult for her to even put on the arm.
The show made it clear that Adam has a major hold on her. The fact that she was able to fight while confronting him with absolutely no fear or hesitation shows that the PTSD was ultimately pointless.
UOW- I have always and believe that I always will like your videos. They have always been well thought out, explained without be demeaning, and funny(at the right times). Please keep 'em coming!
Hey, person who did the captions on this, if your seeing this I just want to say that while your comments are understandable please for the love of gods do not add them into the captions because there are people who need them and the comments take away from the video.
Lol, thanks very much for putting this together. I feel like so many people commenting on this video didn't actually watch the video in full--not just that they didn't enjoy it or agree with it, but that they straight-up (lol) stopped watching two minutes in, and that makes me sad both within myself and on your behalf. There's too much insight here to be missed, and I hope that some of these people come back and give it another go-around. This fandom needs more content creators like you.
I thankfully rang the bell so I was notified when this was uploaded but it’s not showing up in my subscriptions
I LOVED the relationship between Qrow and Clover, romantic OR platonic. It was (in my opinion) very well written (up until the fever dream nightmare that was the last few episodes), and showed the healthy progression of someone getting over their alcohol abuse, self-esteem issues, and general pessimism enough to open up and actually Interact with people in a way that doesn't imply or outright conclude with their thinking of themselves as a horrible person.
And, yes, Clover flirted with Qrow a lot in the first few episodes. But, quite frankly, to me? Those first attempts seem less like actual flirting, and more like Clover making an almost last-ditch effort to get Qrow to realize that, hey, people care about you, *I* care about you, and I want to be your friend, because you need it. Like how someone would jokingly (or possibly not jokingly) flirt with someone they want to make friends with? So yeah. I personally see Fair Game as romantic, but if it's platonic that's fine too!
While I agree with sentiment that representation should be equal in media there is a caveat to that in the fact the author/creator of the work has the right to showcase what they want in their story. Forcing representation into media might only lead to it being superficial and not real. If the representation helps further the plot or world building then perfect if it doesn't serve either purpose it feels shoehorned in and just doesn't feel real or natural within the world that is being built by the author or creator. I feel of course for the underrepresented in media and absolutely feel that the representation should start happening more but if it doesn't feel real, it would just feel like placation rather than true representation. I wish nothing but the best for humanity no matter the skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and gender get representation because at the end of the day, We are all human.
@@Sephajinami You do have a point on how individuals take the writing. I have had to have this argument with people in the past about points of plot in the past about taking our real world experience into a world were the characters don't have the same experience. We are all guilty of this in some shape or form. For example I may not understand what a same sex couple has to go through as I personally am not interested in the same sex in terms of attraction. Which is why I have friends who I talk with who do have the experience to get that understanding. It is when we don't try to understand the other people when the problems start to arise. I personally don't get the argument that individuals present about introducing a character and getting to know the person only for that person to be LGBT in some way either gay, bi, and so on as a bad thing. If the author introduces the character without going into sexuality until the point of reveal then it is still getting to know the character.
The waitress winks when she says "I went ahead and gave you top" then she said "lucky you." Clover said "my semblance is good fortune" then he winked when he said "lucky you." They both wink and say "lucky you," but it's what they say before "lucky you" and when they wink that makes the difference between the meaning behind their wink.
I think I see what your point is, however couldn't both be interpreted as "I have a way (works behind the bar/counteracting semblance) to help you out ... lucky you" to which the words spoken prior mean no different
@@bluegallade Keep in mind Qrow's reaction after the wink and when they say "Lucky you." Qrow is smirking at the waitress after that interaction but with Clover he looks sad. He's still coming to terms with the truth about Salem and Ozpin. Remember how he said he was cursed? So when Clover said that to him he looked surprised and a bit envious. Like he wish he could have that semblance Clover had. Because his has always been a hinderance to him.
@@bluegallade
I see your point.
Great video! I’m not mlm, but I am LGBTQ and I was upset about Fair Game and how it ended. This was a great explanation that respects the audience and analyzes the writer’s process well. It also comforts those who were hurt while still discouraging attacks on fans or other writers. Thank you!
Me: watches video
Also Me: Stops video at 22:32
Also Me: sees The stance Qrow has
Also Me: Hey, I use that stance all the time:)
11:35 the Q stands for "Questioning". "Queer" isn't accepted by everyone. Personally, I won't forbid someone from using it for themselves but I'll never use this word as an identifier for all the LGBT people because it would be disrespectful to all of those who don't want to be characterized by a slur they never wanted to claim.
I agree with most of the video. I also realized that as much as resurrections make the stakes less important, too many character deaths also make me more jaded and uninvested. If any character can die at any moment, I tend to distance myself from the story and (unconsiously?) refuse to sympathize too much with the characters. "Oh, you killed this lovely person for no other reason than trying to make me feel bad? Jokes on you I don't feel a anything anymore!". And thus, after the 3rd death, my reaction generally goes from "F*CK NO!!!" to "Oh... that happened. How unfortunate."
yare yare daze...here we go...
i don't think this video has positively impacted the discourse. this is the same problem i have with Bumblebee now. i don't think not believing a ship will/would/should be cannon makes me homophobic and from most people who support these two ships, that's what i get written off as. i'm not only painted with different intent i'm painted as maliciously just being against LGBTQ+ representation.
👏👏👏
Thank you!
I don't think a ship should be judged for its followers
Otherwise no ship would be okay, every ship under the sun has some crazy supporters.
Yeah if you’re being against LGBT+ representation people in the LGBT+ community are gonna say you’re an asshole. Who’d’ve thought, asshole,
Joe Francis I disagree with that sentiment. I and others aren’t against lgbtq+ relationships in media. I do however disagree with creators being accused of queerbating and fans of homophobia because 2 characters had one short conversation. I’m not being insulting and that’s why I watched unicorn’s entire video.
Qrow is a awesome character and I love his growth in the series.
Honestly the Branwen twins in general are great.
I have watched both this video and your Volume 7 review multiple times and I feel like this is the right time to throw my two cents into this discussion. Since I like to wait til all the episodes are out to binge watch the series in one whole, I get spoilers from all sides and, since I do not fear spoilers, I knew Qrow was gonna get a partner who was going to die by the end of the Volume going into this.
As a rookie writer, I see why they decided to kill off Clover in favour of Qrow's character development. It can either make Qrow go back to his self-destructive ways, making him go down on a dark path that can create interesting dynamics with him, his nieces and family, specifically Tai and Raven, or use this as an opportunity to really take a good hard look at himself and the people around him who love and care about him. It can be, as coined by superhero stories, his 'Uncle Ben Moment', the moment where a character loses someone they care about and use that as their drive to make sure nothing like that never happens again to them and to people around them. And it gives him a great motivation to impale Tyrian on his sword more than ever before.
All of that said, I still felt sad when they killed off Clover. I grew to love him despite my knowledge of what happens him and I never expected to ship him and Qrow as much as I do. Yes, still do. I acknowledge the canon of them as friends and fully approve of them being two guys with a close and quirky bromance but I feel like it could have been better for both Qrow and the show to make their relationship romantic but have a healthy bromance between Qrow and Ironwood.
Not only could Qrow use more close people around his own age but it could have been a good way to explore more of James' character outside of his paranoia and make his fall into fear-filled madness even more gut-punching than it already was but also give him a way out of that mess via his bonds with Winter and Qrow. There would also be no need to kill off anyone to further Qrow's development since Ironwood's decent into madness can be viewed as a death of a character in it's own right and a more effective one at that. It could also give Qrow a good opportunity to actually learn about the Atlesian lifestyle, giving him a better understanding of Ironwood, Winter and, of course, Clover. Also, Qrow, Ironwood and Oscar bonding over stories about Ozpin over non-alcoholic drinks, giving the two older men a more human moment and giving Oscar an opportunity to express his feelings about the whole 'an ancient wizard is sharing my body and mind' situation but also gaining a different perspective on the man that isn't filled with suspicion and betrayal.
In short: making Lucky Charms/Fair Game a romantic relationship and having that bromance with Ironwood saves Clover and kills multiple Nevermores with only a pebble.
And before anyone says a bromance between Qrow and Ironwood isn't possible thanks to their interactions in Volume 3, are you blind? Did you see the hug in episode 2? And yes, this whole rant was inspired by that one scene because because I like seeing the birb man happy, dammit!
Thank you and good night!
Miraculous Ladybug, a *kids* show, literally has better representation. Characters who are People of Color are treated like normal people and are equal to every other character. LGTBQ+ characters are given attention too, but they aren’t treated like plot devices.
shuhuaglow this isn’t that relevant but poc (people of color) would be a better description than colored also stan gidle
I agree! I like the rep in MLB, it’s subtle to the point where you know they a couple but it’s not shoved in our faces like, “LOOOKKK WE HAVE REPRESENTATION FUOSHSSDODR” It’s nice and refreshing.
@@nyabhanteny916 does it matter if you say coloured people or not?
βlueφ Høñeyξ of course it matters that’s why she changed it🤔
@@nyabhanteny916 yeah but coloured people means the same thing so what's the point? I'm not gonna be insulted because they both refer to colour. No one's gonna be insulted by a really simple truth.
Bullshit men are nice to each other my friend Kyle cares about me and he’s not gay he’s helped me and made me feel better about myself and WERE JUST BROS !! He helped me wanna get closer to god
This was beautiful and well done! Thank you for this!
Im all for the lucky charms ship, to each their own. I am a straight male but i have guy friends i hug affectionately and even emotionally support them the same way i do a SO but this is an absolutely hetero action no sexual tension and you know what its perfectly fine.
Ever since rwby chibi, its always been tai qrow for me. Also because of the joke of Tai getting with all of team STRQ.
I can't read people for shit so I just went off Qrow's blatant expression of his interest in women from previous seasons and it's still hard for me to piece together the vibe Lucky Charms shippers get off of their scenes together. Though this is coming from someone who'd have to be outright told someone's feelings for them so I'm a garbage judge.
Also bisexuality is a thing. Most people that headcanon Qrow as anything other than straight usually headcanon gets as either bi or pan because of his interest in women
@@ravenfrancis1476 he’s flirted with women multiple times never with men and he’s mentioned women and her skirt to Yang when he visited her if he was bisexual he would have flirted with men and or mentioned he found other men attractive so no he’s not bisexual
@@amarg7657 Clearly you didn't see his interactions with Clover then. Also, he could be bi and just not found a man that he's attracted to yet.
@@ravenfrancis1476 "BiSeXuAliTy ExIstS" lol shut up. That same dumb excuse was used for Blake and Yang. Qrow's straight.. people really can't be just friends in this show jesus! Lol.
@@thelink6756 Just say you're biphobic and leave. He's bi lmao
I personally don’t ship Clover and Qrow, as I never saw any romantic signs. I myself am in two parts of the LGBT community, and I didn’t sense anything. I hate when two same sex characters are shipped just cuz GAY. Plus Qrow in past volumes always showed more flirtatious sides of himself towards females, like in RWBY Chibi or when he talked about that waitress. There were never valuable scenes of Qrow ever coming off as “maybe I’m gay.” To me Clover and Qrow were just close friends as Clover was someone Qrow really needed. I do hate that Clover died though, as I feel it was random in some ways (not completely), and I know it’ll mess Qrow up again.
Idk, I just don’t see it.
Ruby and Yang's dad is the most hetero of the characters. Therefore the RWBY writers MUST make him into Mr. safety / boring / dull / uninteresting.
Yes,
He cares about his daughters, there is never any adventure where he is around. That was the stated reason why Yang wanted to go to Beacon Academy into the huntsman lifestyle. She did not appreciate how he, like many USA parents, wanted his kids to grow up in a safe environment.
His one failing, common among the RWBY parents, is to give his daughters scrolls. All of the RWBY students have them S1-3. The Facebook founder does not allow his own kids near any such social media devices.
21:45 something i heard only secondhandedly was that the reason they changed him from gay to not gay was due to the fact that they didn't want to have the first gay person in rwby to also be doing underhanded activities thus the change. although i could be wrong i can't even remember if this was even right it was just something i heard on the comment grapevine.
Everything you said was right and Yang is bi because in volume 1 in response to ruby saying " I don't think dad would apove the boys" and yang said "I do" with a look a her face
That was all the way back to volume 1. While I think you are right i feel like the writers would retcon for extra brownie points
My issue with representation in western anime is the fact that instead of doing it properly they think representation means make everyones gay/lesbian and thats the only thing they bring to the table. Blake is a perfect example. She is literally there just to pander to a ship at this point. Same with yang she is no longer yang anymore.
Yang and Blake have one of the most important plot points in the Volume(telling Robyn)
@@brianbrush5107 Literally anyone could say this to robin and it wouldn't make a difference the plot would have gone the same way. It wasn't that important . Oh yah they also managed to tell the people being criminals top secret information. Iy honestly would have made a lot more sense If rwby was the one who told her considering she was struggling with telling james about salem.
@@nathan9026 Them telling Robyn is what resulted In Them being able to Save Mantle.
@@brianbrush5107 Yah because james going on a power trip saves mantle right? If I recall they have to flee. Telling robin isn't that important and wouldn't have changed hardly anything. The only thing it might have changed is clover not dying. Be for you say its important that he died,nkt really the fight literarily made no sense they both teamed up with a serial killer. Neither character with the way they act would team up with tyrian.
Blake and yang are literally there to appease the shippers. Hell even weiss said nah this ain't it chief in the beginning of the season.
@@brianbrush5107 yang's character is also been stopped to token lesbian ship as in the companion book they state yang is overprotective of her sister and I can maybe recall just maybe 1 or 2 instances where it kinda shows,for the most part she kinda abandons her sister.
I don't like how clover dies however i don't think he should come back because it would destroy to much of the stakes also hell if he came back why not just have pyrah back too
good video, you adressed so many of the points ive seen made on this topic.
I appreciate your honesty, and the lengths you went to try to keep order in this comment section. I, for one, feel the need to respond in kind.
I do not and cannot appreciate the idea of entertainment as purely a reflection of the real world. Using it to represent real groups of people will only lead to exactly what happened here, a misunderstanding. This is not avoidable, this is not stoppable. Gay people are not a hive mind, they are not all the same. That would be tantamount to claiming every heterosexual person is.
Instead, let them be characters, let the writers write, even if it is harmful. I'm not saying don't voice your opinions, but you seem to be under the notion that there is a correct way to do things.
There is no right way, unless that way is writing someone like a human. Division into smaller, and smaller, more specific groups won't help anyone.
This is how I will handle my writings, not how I intend to, or how I think it should be, its how I will do it. People will consider this wrong, or right, or any measure in-between, but I will continue on all the same. Listening, watching, learning, but never bending. As silly as I was, I have a lot of work to do to make those words real, and I would think, you do as well. If you want the world to understand you.
Bring your vision to life, you are after all, the only one who can.
Written, Noah, someone who could not be more opposite the political spectrum from you even if he tried.
Good luck!
No. There is a right way to do things. Don't gaybait your fans your homophobic "killing your gay characters is perfectly fine" prick.
what i took away from this video "if it's straight it's a lesser race"
*Two guys have a positive interaction*
Fandom: I diagnose you with gay
And straight couples get turned down/ ridiculed for not representing gays so I'm tired of this. Like who you want but don't ridicule either side of the fence. Gays are great straight is great and in all honesty neither side had to represented in rwby, but they did.
No views
2 likes
TH-cam you're drunk go home
No YT is functioning perfectly fine, it happens because views only register ~30 seconds of watchtime as a view, while likes and comments are registered instantly. The page doesn't show the views etc. in real time hence it looks weird.
Oh hey, no ones ever actually given a reason before, neat
Spoken too much on this, so I’m just gonna copy/paste.
Guys... if you saw them as platonic, that’s fine. Literally fine. Because like Ive told others before, the shipping aspect was only the *tip* of the iceberg.
most critics and fndm can agree Clover was non-het, and liked him for that. Even the animator made him flirt with Qrow.
some liked Qrow and Clover’s dynamic and wished to see it grow in future interactions with each other.
some people liked that Qrow now had a support structure that could include *actual adults,* and not just children, or an immortal in a *child’s body.*
some just felt like Clover acted as the fndm’s mouthpiece to finally tell their favorite character “on god we’re going to get you some self-love”
and some people...just felt like seeing Qrow trying to abstain and lead a healthier life and mindset gave them courage to do the same. and these moments were usually brought out in interactions with Clover.(a family member of mine goes to AA, and an important thing that Clover did when Qrow stumbled over his alcoholic past was not judge, or even so much as reference it. That’s...That’s like so important. That scene was such a good one despite how short it was.)
Hopefully what I’m getting across is, the criticism for killing off that character was Not just a ship thing, and to say so is inaccurate and kind of alienates people from banding with other critics in hopes of CRWBY listening to a larger number of voices.
We don't know what clovers sexuality was at all.
14:20 asexual has nothing really to do with ones romantic interests. otherwise they would also be aromantic right. affection and sexual interest to my understanding are different just like the differences between ones biological sex and their behavioral gender.
UoW you’re a king ily 😭💞
Really though, you’re so respectable and compassionate but you do that without giving up your values and I think that’s admirable
I just ask: why did you say with such confidence that gay men are more privileged than lesbians?
‘It’s hard to translate the language of the grim-‘
=loading cause of shitty wifi=
Me: lmao the Grimm lol.
So...unless I'm missing something, this is in Unicorn's Volume 7 review. Eh, I still think it's an important video for someone like me simply because I'm not part of the LGBT community and didn't really get the blowback to Clover's death.
Also Unicorn, could you please release the scripts (Chapters 7-14) of your 'I Rewrote RWBY Volume 5... Again' videos? Chapters 1-6 are great, and I'd love to read the rest.
P.S: 7:32, Unicorn, I think both myself, and alot of people would get upset at the idea of losing someone as entertaining as yourself, so if these thoughts are genuinely plaguing you, please take care of yourself. The world will be become a bit more unpleasant without you.
The subs for this video are great.
I don't handwave the notion that Qrow and Clover were ever supposed to be a couple, my issue with this apply's to shipping in general regardless of gender. Too often people make the mistake of thinking a relationship should be all that defines a charachter so when two charachters are together and they have any kind of affection toward each other the response is to instantly think they'll be a couple. This is why in order for me to get behind a couple they must have clear solid reasoning that their going to get together. Yang and Blake for example I have no trouble believing that their going to be a couple. The build up has been much stronger than people think for it I noticed signs of it even back when they had that heart to heart in season 2 and as time has gone on it just became stronger.
Representation does matter but just as it's important for same sex couples to be seen as normal. I think it's just as important for people to see that two people can still really care about each other and not be in a relationship. Steven Universe was my first real exposure to that and Garnet is now one of my favorite girl charachters same goes for Pearl. The relationship Ruby and sapphire have does'nt define them and Pearl's feelings toward Rose are'nt all there is to her charachter either. This is my point, no matter what I want charachters to be treated as three dimensional and not just objects that only exist to be a couple both by writers and the viewers.
Nobody's shipping Ren and Jaune lol
I wanna see how you and vex react to each other
If Qrow were to ever have a love interest. That love interest having a good luck semblance would've been #1 on things that love interest had. It feels too obvious. Sure they could've been just two bros, but really? How do you put a character with a good luck semblance and a character with a bad luck semblance, together in the same room and not ship them?
Ok sooo without hate, I feel like they would’ve done Lucky Charm if it weren’t for their limits on episodes. They definitely were going for something deeper but could only have 12 episodes to get the plot through. It’s not that they need to value character moments over plot but they need to extend their episodes count. Yes more character moments are needed but we also need more plot to balance. Anyways if they had more time I feel like they would’ve given Clover a longer arc with Qrow definitely ending in a relationship and then Clover’s death. Now the death would play a harder part on Qrow and how he feels about the villains and life itself. With them trying to push a Volume every year I feel like they rush and cut out a lot of arcs and everything. I want them to take their time with volume 8 and make sure they get in everything they want to without rushing.
I really doubt that, they were originally gonna have the pilot who gets Weiss out of Atlas be gay, but cut it cause they didn't wanna go with the Bury your gays trope.
Okay I know I'm gonna come off petty af for focusing on this bit out of the whole vid (14:30-14:35), but did you really just say that😳? As if! Literally wouldn't have anymore gay bros still @ war online if that was the case lady.
This is why I love your channel
15:20,
While I’m not sure that is the reason why, I do think female LGBT representation is more readily accepted.
While I can name so many Sapphic couples in media, Lumity, Bubbline, Catradora, Korrasami, Annomi, ect I can’t really name any male LGBT couples apart from like, Willows dads from TOH (who have basically no screentime and I don’t even think have names from show only sources), Shadam (from Voltron and Adam died instantly to the point I’m not even sure if that’s his name) and Dismault from DD (which isn’t even canon and Reynault dies so it never can be)
Part of the problem is the obvious homophobia and also the gendered double standards as gay male couples are seen as more s*xual, than lesbian couples. That's why there are so many gay dads in kids cartoons, it's easier seeing them as parental figures (which arguably adultifies queer men in a different way from how we adultify queer women).