Something else I noticed was that not a single member of Miguel's inner circle were Peter parkers, or even Parker adjacent like Peni Parker or Pavitr Prabhakar. Instead it's Jessica Drew, Hobie Brown, Ben Riley, Margo Kess, and Miguel O'Hara himself. Sure, he interacts with Parkers like Peter B. and Lego Peter, but the closest you get with his inner circle is a clone of Peter. Connect that with Nando's observation on the origin discrepancy, and I genuinely think they may touch on this in Beyond the Spider-Verse.
Even if you're not aware of the comic origins, the movie very much you off a lot that at least Miguel's not your typical Spider-Man. He doesn't stick to walls, he has claws that he uses to latch onto things. His "webs" are energy-based whereas everyone else in this film has traditional webbing. He moves and fights very viscerally and even bares fangs in multiple scenes. We also see him injecting something into his shoulder during his first scene, which tips the audience off right away that he's a little different. He fights more like a wild beast or like Venom than he fights like a typical Spiderman. Miles even comments on it near the end of the film, saying "man, you sure you're really Spiderman?"
To clarify: His powers are more biologically accurate. He has paralytic venom in his fangs, 360 vision instead of Spider-Sense, spider claws, and biologically made webbing (except in the movie, they switched it to hard-light futuristic webbing)
Except, as it was addressed in the movie, Miles was a result of an anomaly when the Earth-42 Spider entered the universe and stayed there long enough to bite Miles. Miguel, Ben, Jessica, and Gwen all have different canons to how their story goes. For example, everyone has their Uncle Ben but Gwen lost her friend, Peter.
Origin stories aside, I really like how Ben is one of Miguel's most trusted lieutenants. Not only do they have a lot in common as extremely '90s characters, but according to Miguel's worldview, Ben Reilly is the perfect Spider-Man. According to Miguel, what makes a Spider-person is trauma. Losing loved ones, and feeling guilt about how they couldn't save them, is what teaches them about power and responsibility and all the rest. And he doesn't think that any Spider-person who hasn't gone through those Canon events is trustworthy, because he thinks they haven't learned the lessons that make them a real hero. So to Miguel, Ben is the best Spider-Man because he's the most traumatized. The fact that he's constantly ruminating over his dark past is, to Miguel, what shows that he takes his job seriously and that he's learned the right lessons from his life. And the way the movie absolutely clowns on Ben for every second that he's onscreen shows how unhealthy that mindset really is.
I don't know. The way the movie presents it makes it feel like Miguel is using the trauma explanation to justify his dogmatic adherence to the canon, so following the canon should be a more important part of the perfect spider-man than trauma.
@@yeahey5947 but if it was just trauma, he could replace it with any other trauma. Instead he says it's very specific events. He's catalogued them and assigned them identifiers showing their uniqueness and making them more than just "trauma".
The story also goes out of its way to point out that Miguel is really not a lot like Spider-Man. He says himself that he's different from the others and Peter B. says "You're the only one of us who's not funny. You know, we're supposed to be funny." Everything about the story points out that "cannon" or no, Miles *feels* more Spider-Man and has more Spider-Man heart than Miguel does.
Funny enough, OG Miguel does throw around jokes and is kind of a jerk, but when he's using the costume he gets more serious. It changes a bit with time as he gets more into the hero thing. This version of Miguel has gone through some serious shit, so yeah, I think his mood is justified
I honestly expected the view to bring up how none of the three in the movie really cracks jokes. Who knows tho. BTW Pav was also not bitten by a spider. Hell even Peter Porker is technically not bitten by a spider, he was a spider bitten by a pig lmao.
It's weird that he was a little more cheerful on the post-credit scenes in Into The Spider-verse, to then shift into this. Later on, we don't get into his backstory unlike most of the spider-people that play a major role and most of his powers can easily be credited by the use of technology, rather than actual spider powers... Only thing this Miguel has in common with the Comics one is light sensibility and those fangs of his... Wanna know what else has those qualities? A vampire. Is there an enemy that heavily resembles a vampire that specifically targets spider-people?
if I learned anything from ATSV, its that hints for the direction of the series were hidden in ITSV (spider 42 glitching, miles' purple/green spider-sense, etc). so i trust the filmmakers enough to believe this will become SUPER relevant in BTSV, because you're right that it would be a pretty wild coincidence that these three spider-people just happen to be the ones hunting miles atm
Personally speaking, the overall theme of Across the Spiderverse can easily be "rejecting generational trauma." The old guard and those who have suffered under "canon events" try to enforce the idea that Spider people must suffer these trauma's to preserve what they know. It can easily be represented as a metaphor for older generations putting younger generation through trauma because "I went through that and I turned out fine." While the newer guard look at the evidence, sees the contradictions and goes. "No. I don't want your tauma."
I thought I was the only one who saw the generational thing. The adults have resigned themselves to "this is how the world is" type of mentality and the kids are trying to change that, interesting ideas here
The more i think about the two films so far the more i think Miles' art piece of "no expectations" is one of the through-lines for the series. Is Miles subverting expectations for what his parents want for him as a son and student. But he's also doing his own thing as a spider-man, and striking out against the Spider Society. Gwen ignores the rules and visits Miles, against expectations as a Spider Society member. Hobie backs up Miles, Spider-Byte lets Miles escape, etc. Every Spider in both films is struggling with expectations- and subverting them or subjecting them on others. Miguel *expects* all the spiders to agree with him, accept their canon events because that's the way it has to be. But what if one of the cornerstones of a Spider is 'no expectations'? We all know 'with great power comes great responsibility.' and ' you can't save everyone'. But what if a deeper spider-man truth is to have 'no expectations' and be yourself. because any one could, and can wear the mask. It's inside all of us. And Miles is proving that to everyone. In part 3, he'll become the most spider-man'd spider-man that has ever donned the mask. And he did it his way #Sinatra-Spider
Honestly, my feeling is that it’s easier to have main characters if they aren’t all Peter. The fact that the main circle weren’t bitten by spiders is in my opinion a byproduct of using more well-known spider-verse characters, as well as ‘classic’ non-Peter characters with older origins, as opposed to more recent characters who form more of the rank-and-file, such as spider-Gwen.
I mean yes, but they do make quite a deal out of the fixed features of Spider-Man. How everything must be rigid and unchanged, *including* the bite. So it's interesting that Miguel, Jess, and Ben do not actually fit this type. Especially since Scarlet Spider doesn't seem to be totally all there compared to the other two
@@aromaladyellieI don’t think they were saying the canon event is that you HAVE to get bitten. It’s that Miles was not supposed to be bitten at all by the spider from 42 and, as a result, he should not have become Spider-Man in his universe.
I wonder if not being bitten by a spider makes them "non-canon" in a low-key way - i.e not a 'true' spiderman. Something that sticks out when Miles said to Miguel "You have claws?? Are you sure you're a spiderman?" or something like that. Feel like it's hinting at something that we might see in the sequel next year.
Technically, Spider-Ham was a spider bitten by a radioactive pig and I think it'd be a weird message to say you can only be Spider-Man if you were bitten by a radioactive spider. Miguel has also always had claws. He doesn't stick to things like most Spider-People. He was also the first Spider-Man to have organic webbing in the comics, but that seems to be ignored in the movie.
Spider 42 was meant to bite Miles in Earth 42. And there was already a spiderman in 1610. So... It kinda seems like maybe the point is that Miles does not have to follow the path of the typical spiderman.
I think how they got their powers is more of a literary device to reflect their inner characterization; a visual representation of just how different they are from every other Spider-Man. Sure, how they got their powers technically makes them different, but what truly sets them apart is their actions, especially Miguel's. Spider-Man has never been a pragmatist, and I mean that as compliment. What makes Spider-Man a true hero is the fact that the only life he will ever be willing to trade is his own, especially when innocent people are involved. Miguel has never been that way. He is strictly about the greater good, and he often has to be coaxed into saving people when it diverts from the main task at hand.
Does anyone get the feeling that Jess had some major off screen character arc between recruiting Gwen and meeting Miles? Her personality shifts entirely. I almost get the feeling she split with her partner or something.
@@greywarden5513 one thing that bothers me is that she's evidently very far into her pregnancy when she meets Gwen and if that was a few months before meeting miles, she'd surely be about ready to pop by then
I heard a galaxy-brain theory about who actually architected spider-society: Otto Octavius as the Superior Spider-man. His story is one where he was actually converted from villain to hero specifically because he experienced Peter's traumas and life events. It's easy to consider that he was so deeply affected by those events that he came to see them as crucial to creating a hero. Moreover, in the Superior Spiderman original run, he actually meets Miguel and they team up to try to stop the Green Goblin. Otto is wearing Peter's face, so it would be easy to see how he could use Peter's credibility to convince everyone of the importance of canon events. And, like Miguel in ATSV, Otto is actually known to lack Peter's sense of humor and is far more straightforward and even serious in the way he talks.
I feel like that would be too complicated, they’d have to rehash the motivation scenes and everything. Why does there need to be another setup? We’ve got Miguel already to fill that role and it would take time away from the spot storyline
I've been under the impression that Miguel is just... *wrong.* For example, he slotted himself in with another universe's dead Miguel's family till it went to crap. That the *exact* same thing that Kingpin tried to do in the first movie! Just the people who go to a different universe change is all. Miguel is pulling villain moves with a better "motive" is all.
Miguel will probably be wrong but Miguel entering into another universe is different from the Kingpin pulling people from another universe. Plus Miguel's motivation is implied to be rooted in the guilt over possibly causing this and is seeking to stop anyone else from doing similar.
@@justintrujillo8483 Counter point: Why is Miles the Prowler? If the Spider-Man canon is so crucial to the multiverse, how can a spider never bite anyone, there never be a Spider-Man of any sort, and NYC can become as crime ridden as Gotham without any ramifications whatsoever? For that matter, how does protagonist Miles own reality exist when Spider-Man died and Miles took over? The other Spider-Mans weren't replaced by a younger kid version of themselves. Why doesn't that affect the canon? Two timelines that haven't collapsed despite complete altering the "Spider-canon" within the film already. The whole thing doesn't really stand up to its own logical scrutiny. It also doesn't fit with.....the most basic Marvel multiverse concept. It doesn't matter how much you bork things up, it doesn't collapse reality. It splits off another branch, a new thread in the web.
@@ninjafoxgamesgeekery the way that i interpreted the “spider canon” was that the universes with spider-man had very specific events and if they didn’t have spider-man then those events didn’t matter. since 42 had no spider-man then the spider-man canon events didn’t need to happen. i just don’t understand why people see miguel as a villain because he’s doing his best to save as many people as possible after seeing what altering canon events can do
Maybe the reason they're part of the inner circle is because they aren't Spider-Men, and thus aren't bound to canon events the way people like Spider-Man India, or Gwen, or Peter B are, whether they know it or not. I noticed how Peter B said "if it weren't for Uncle Ben, **most** of us wouldn't be here". Obviously he could just be referring to the fact that not everyone's "Uncle Ben" was actually Uncle Ben, but it could also be a hint that not everyone who works for Miguel had an Uncle Ben at all. Idk, it's just a thought.
No we see in the movie that Spider-Women is bound by canon events. It's in the background but when Miguel is showing Miles all the universes, you can see Jessica having a Canon event in one of the webs
Jessica Drew was the main character in her own cartoon show. The origin I know was that as a child she got sick and her dad was a scientist who made a cure for her disease and it gave her spider powers.
There's also something fishy going on with the whole collapsed universe and canon in general and why miguel is so upset at miles. Miles didnt actually do anything wrong or break the canon, spot did. Spot brought the spider over so he broke the canon. Then when miles broke the reactor, because spot broke the canon and miles wouldnt be there without him, then spot basically created himself in a roundabout way. Miles was in the same position as that of 42 miles, they both had their destiny changed by spot, theyre both victims, and miles isnt the original anomaly. And if miles is an anomaly then so is mayday, because mayday doesnt exist without miles, but mayday is a canon spiderman in the comics. But peter b didnt have his universe fall apart, neither did miles or 42 miles. Id imagine a universe with no spiderman at all would be destroyed rather than continue existing. Now as for why Pav's universe started falling apart, i think that was due to the spot and the reactor, not due to any canon. After the spot leaves we see the alchemex building fall apart with similar darkness n stuff but that was easily understood as the reactors fault. As for why miguels universe destroyed itself, i think it was because a spiderman was trying to live as another universes spiderman. Like if peter b tried to be peter in miles universe the same thing could have happened.
spot had erasure powers! It can be seen 3 times in the movie First scene: Miles and his dad fighting spot, once they go to Alchemax (The collider), Spot holds the Alchemax sign and it disappears into nothing 2nd instance: The Alchemax building in Spiderman India's universe also disappears the same way the sign did 3rd instance: The Hole in the middle of Mumbatten looks like the spots holes rather than a universe tearing itself apart
Yes. This articulates many of my thoughts about why Miguel isn’t telling the whole truth about Miles being the original anomaly and why anomalies and universes can fall apart. The explanation he gives is simple enough and easy to understand on the surface but there’s also enough to wonder when you look at it more broadly that there must be more to it. And that thing about canon events kinda seemed like he was full of shit. Like in Mumbattan would that anomaly hole not have happened if Miles had let that police captain die? And why was that deemed a canon event when that only would have happened as a result of the Spot going there from Miles’ universe and activating the collider to become more powerful. Why was Miles deemed wrong to have saved that one person but all the other people he and everyone else saved were completely fine. It seems a bit contrived on Miguel’s part and none of his followers seem to wanna question it because of the power and authority he holds. Hobie’s willingness to defy Miguel is a clear sign to me that Miguel has the makings of a fascist. And i don’t think the full extent of his goals have been revealed nor has the full extent of his back story. The reason he has to inject himself wasn’t explicitly revealed in the movie, nor has the origins of how he got his somewhat unusual powers
I think Mayday isn't considered an anomaly is because Peter and MJ were probably gonna have her either way and Peter would've fixed himself on his own eventually if he never got pulled by the Collider.
@@AnDrei-nf5jb The canon he described also applied to him just living in a different universe, weird things to note here are the fact that this should have happened to both Miles universes by now considering both of them were highly changed.I don't actually see how him just showing up in a different universe destroyed a universe, if that the case Gwen showing up should have disrupted the Canon of Miles world.How come Miles world is even considered canon? Because he became spiderman? If it's not canon then him saving his father should have no consequences as Miguel would have to find a way to fix Miles universe anyways which would mean he never becomes spiderman anyways.If canon exists then Miguel has to rid the universe of miles to begin with, if not everything should collapse. another funny thing to note is the universe the spidermen are staying at in the movie. Where exactly are they? Are they in 2099s universe?If so why isn't that dimension collapsing? Two spidermen in one dimension disrupted the Canon whatever dimension they're in should be a far bigger danger than miles(who 2099 would technically have to get rid of alongside mayday anyways)who just wants to save his dad(who technically shouldn't have died in universe if he already died in 42 miles universe, that was never technically canon to begin with)
I find it weird that Miles' universe didn't collapse when he was bit by the spider and his Peter died. That should have already qualified as breaking canon.
I think you're also forgetting that Peter B Parker was Miguel's other right hand man until he failed to capture Miles. Idk if there's something there honestly I think it's just more about having some more recognisable characters to feature more heavily in the next movie instead of generic spidey recolours
I heard that both Peter b and Miguel actually met before. The theory states that they are the same Miguel and Peter from Edge of Time and Shattered Dimensions, I doubt it but maybe they did have a similar event before.
Well when you think about peter b.'s kid, mayday is a spider person with no spider since she inherited her powers from her father. So while he's a regular spider guy his baby that is always with him isn't
@@wolfcharlie3771omg, I don’t know why people keep bringing up edge of time lol. Edge of time is kind of a sequel to shattered dimensions and that was also a spiderverse game. Miguel and peter B have just experienced multiverse travel for the first time during into the spiderverse. And Edge of time peter wouldn’t be on miguel’s side because he believed in always trying to save someone if you have the chance to. Miguel also learns this when he saves Mary Jane by doing what peter says.
The line that really struck me was when Peter B. shows up while Miguel is giving Miles the whole spiel and Peter butts in with like "Lighten up man, Spider-Man is supposed to be funny." And at face value, it just seems like a little joke about how gritty and self-serious Miguel is. But if you happen to know Miguel's comic backstory, it takes on a completely different meaning. What if Miguel isn't funny... because Miguel isn't a True Spider-Man? Miles isn't the original anomaly, Miguel is.
I’ve definitely been caught up on how different Miguel is in particular from the “canon” he claims is so important. Miguel is really a Spider-Man in name only, every event highlighted in the movie simply doesn’t apply to him. I don’t know if he’s actually a secret villain, I think it’s more simple and thematic for him to simply be misguided, but there are a LOT of subtle points against Miguel that require meta knowledge to recognize.
I'd be a bit disappointed if Miguel turned out to be a straight-up villain. He was the original successor to Spider-Man in the comics. He's also the first hispanic Spider-Man. He's just as much Spider-Man as any of the others. It'd also be weird to say you're not Spider-Man if you weren't bit by a radioactive spider.
@@andrewli6606 well i guess one of the main themes of the movie is that "anyone can be spider-man", so i doubt they'd go against that by saying Miguel *isn't* spider-man
@@andrewli6606 I think they’re just pointing out the hypocrisy. You’re right, it is weird to say that but Miguel says Miles isn’t a real Spider-Man and he WAS bitten, so he’s basically a huge hypocrite
This is an amazing observation and shows that the writers behind Across the Spider-Verse really thought this story through. I think it’s going to pay off powerfully in Beyond the Spider-Verse.
I feel like Ben Reilly is an understated character from the fact the first movie straight up felt like it was HEAVILY inspired by some beats of the clone saga where Ben Reilly became mainline spider-man. You got Peter Parker with blonde hair and an organized lifestyle to which Ben at his best is able to accomplish, Miles is like Ben Reilly when it comes to feeling overshadowed by the name of Spider-Man and at first trying to live like Peter Parker and his Spider-Man. But then overall having to find his own identity whether as another Spider-Man or someone else entirely. Miguel is close to Ben Reilly because of the fact they both have experiences of filling someone else's life as well and literally having another life given to them for a bit. And maybe he associates the Peter Parker that Miles's universe had with Ben Reilly,
I fully expect Madame Web to make an appearance in the next movie. She will "solve" the problem between Miles and Miguel by saying they're both half right. These canon events need to happen but not at the time and not in the exact order that Miguel thinks they do. There's wiggle room to their fates.
I think that won't happen, due to it seeming that Miguel is mistaken about what went wrong, due to cognitive bias he formed around his trauma, which he's now trying to enforce. Much more likely, as MatPat theorized, Miguel caused the destruction of that world where he replaced himself because he was a being from another dimension causing an "incursion" event, breaking that reality. I would like to see Madam Web back, though!
My guess is the wiggle room is that each and every single universe has their own personal canon. That no two Spider-People follow the exact same events. Also that it is possible to reject these events...But there are severe consequences to them and the universes that unravel are actually the lucky ones. As the worst case scenarios are the worlds that live but are irreversibly Broken/Doomed/Left to Rot...Like 42, Zombies, Darkhold, Spider's Shadow, Poison and Ruins etc.
This is a very interesting observation! I definitely think that this will play a part in Beyond the Spider-Verse and will have Miguel realize that there is more to being Spider-Man than canon
I think the hypocrisy might persist without it, because of course Miguel's notion that Miles has to preserve the canon is being aimed at someone who (by Miguel's own definition) is outside that canon. Additionally the canon violation that Miguel claims proves his theory, is levels of magnitudes more serious than the ones he's policing (depending of course on how long he pretended to be AltMiguel). And another amusing sting, Miguel gets hurt by another layer of secret identity, which just underlines the fact that keeping secret identities from ones loved ones is rarely a responsible course of action, which helps highlight the secondary theme of the film with Gwen and Miles (though of course Gwen has solid reason to think that if she reveals her identity, she'll be in immediate danger). I think this really cool, because like the canon, Secret Identities have sort of snuck as 'Just that thing superheroes do' and we've largely stopped thinking about the specific things they do in the narrative and the lives of the characters. I've never really understood the claim that 'secret identities help keep my loved ones safe' because if you trust your loved ones, there's no reason not to tell them and if they knew, then when a villain popped up, they'd know that they need to be careful or be able to help the hero. It just leaves a situation where the only people who know the hero's identity, are the villains. I think this also got briefly examined in Invincible with Amber, but I'm really excited to see Spider-verse getting more critical with tropes and I'm kind of hopeful it can get people thinking more about common superhero features like canon, secret identities, responsiblity etc.
If you want to keep a secret, drive into the desert and tell a jack rabbit. Then, shoot the rabbit. That's the thing about secrets. They rarely get kept. One way or another, it gets out. Someone lets it slip. I agree eventually the closest to the hero have to be told the truth, but there's a reason it's a compelling aspect for super heroes. In Peter's original case, he didn't think Aunt May could handle it with her health problems. Plus she thought Spider-Man was a villain. Add on the guilt Peter feels around Ben's death and he was also *afraid* to tell her. But even if he did and she accepted it, he would have been afraid that her worrying about him off doing Spider-Man stuff would have killed her weak heart.
Usually it makes sense. It's actually a pretty big deal to just tell someone that. I mean mark doesn't tell his gf because they were barely dating for a few months. He liked her but he needed more time. As for Peter guy above me stated it. And Peter never really had cause to tell any of his friends. MJ apparently knew the entire time from when they first met in the iconic tiger panel. And that's why she was always so cool with Peter flaking. And she never once let it slip. But other than that nobody knew or needed to know. Aa for Miles I think for him the conflict has more to do with his own personal conflict of identity and his future. He already feels threatened as Miles and kinda wants to keep the Spider-Man bit to himself but also really wants to share that part of himself with them. But he's just not sure they'll accept it. I mean he told his own dad to get of his ass. Dude is clearly annoyed with them.
Oh man that reminder of Invincible and the college admissions episode where Mark ends up revealing his secret identity to Amber. I’m having PTSD flashbacks to how terrible that episode was. Good lord, that one episode ruined that whole show for me. Also that Amber character sucks so damn much in that show
Yeah the concept of secret identities always frustrates me... because all too often they're like "I gotta keep it a secret to protect you" but my guy, its ONLY a problem if the _villains_ learn your identity. You should totally be able to tell your close family members, so long as your family isn't stupid enough to go revealing your identity to the public.
@@lasercraft32 "If you want to keep a secret, go into the desert and tell the a jackrabbit. Then, shoot the rabbit." You're basically telling the people closest to you "I go out and do the most dangerous things imaginable and every day I'm not here in front of you, I might be dead. Also, what I'm doing might be terribly illegal." What's the first thing you're told to do when you win the major lottery? Do. not. tell. anyone. You maybe tell your spouse and your parents and even the parents are questionable. Experts advise you tell as few people as conceivably possible at first because word gets out and the wolves come to your door. You need to have everything worked out with lawyers and accountants before even your family knows. Now apply that to a situation you can't have things protected via simple legal set ups. It's a more realistic aspect that adds drama that people dismiss as silly, but honestly I think it's more reasonable the more you think on it. Writers just haven't approached it seriously in a long time.
This is kinda off topic, but I realized it while you were talking about Jessica Drew’s powers. All three of the black spider people (Jessica, Miles, Hobie) have some kind of electric blast powers that I don’t think we see from any other spider people. Which is kinda neat, but also continues the weird trend of black heroes with electric powers, so that’s weird
@@jordanloux3883 she didn’t in this movie, but considering the character has had them in most comic iterations, she likely will later. And to my point, she’s the version they decided to make black in this one, not any of the others without electric powers, continuing the trend
Growing up my favourite Spiders were Ben and Miguel and somehow I got them both in one movie and not, at the same time. Amazing movie, sad about my boys.
when Miguel starting talking about how Miles wasn't supposed to be bit, I really thought the reveal was going to be that Spider-42 was from Miguel's universe, and the reason he uses tech rather than having radioactive abilities is because Miles took it from him. "You weren't supposed to be Spider-Man. I WAS." That kinda thing but maybe less melodramatic. I think it being from a universe where a different Miles was supposed to be bit is better, I just thought I'd share since you brought up Miguel not having traditional Spidey powers.
Honestly, with how much the movie plays up the "vampire" aspect, I worry that Miguel might secretly be Morlun, gathering all the various Spider-People together as a trap. I really hope they don't do that, since I think the idea that he just has a different answer to the trolley problem of "save a loved one or the universe" is a more interesting foil to Miles and Gwen than just "Surprise! He's actually evil," but the thought's been stuck in my head since I saw the movie.
I highly doubt it. Like they’ve talked about Miguel’s character complexity in some interviews and unless this is some fucking 4D chess conspiracy to straight up gaslight the entire world, I’m gonna say that Miguel is probably exactly who he’s portrayed to be.
@@cartoonishidealism582 can you hit me up with those cuz even though I'm familiar with the reason behind Miguel's powers I've actually started to worry that they might write that in and I'm hoping it's just fandom bs getting to me (a lot don't seem to realize that Miguel in the movies is the opposite of his comic self which I'm hoping is just the result of breaking canon)
Nando you forgot baby MayDay Parker. She wasn't bitten by a spider either, she just got them through genetics from her dad. Maybe she's a double agent 😆
That’s a really good point that, having never read the comics, I didn’t realize! Another commenter also pointed out that none of Miguel’s inner circle are Peter Parker’s or even Peter Parker “adjacents” (Peni Parker, Pavitr Prabhakar, Peter Parkedcar, Peter Porker, etc.) so this will most likely be brought up in the next movie because there’s no way all of these things are by coincidence.
You didn't mention this, but the reason that Jessica Drew is pregnant in Across the Spider-Verse is because she was pregnant in the comics! Not in the vintage comics, it was a fairly recent issue. It was kind of a nod to one of her origin stories, getting her powers when her mom was pregnant with her. It made a lot of headlines because she was allegedly the first pregnant superhero and was shown heavily pregnant on the first cover. I thought it was cool they added that part in the movie!
I don't think anyone else mentiomed this, but are we sure Canon events are even real? because you should trust what we see instead of what we hear, we're told by Miguel what happens when you break canon, but we also see for ourselves that it doesn't always happen. Gwen's father quits the police and thus there is no police captain close to Gwen who could/can die, so doesn't that break canon, why isn't her universe in danger, then we visit Earth 4242, there is no spiderman, and you can't tell me the bite that creates spiderman is not a canon event, so why is earth 4242 still a thing, it should've been destroyed a year ago when Miles first gets bitten, and again with Pav's world it isn't necessarily the universe collapsing that's causing all the destruction, it's The Spot who does that. So I think there's enough evidence to put the existence of Canon Events into question
What I understand of the canon events, is not the similar origins, but the defining events that make them grow and learn to be a Spider-Person,for some would be their uncle's death, for some would be their child's death, and I think the problem that Miguel has with Miles, is that his universe started the problem with their multiverse, maybe the collider made all the other villains transport to other universes, and that's breaking canon in all of them, and maybe is just frustration that Miles may be able to fix it and save his father when Miguel couldn't do the same for his daughter
I love that ATSV is allowing for so many interpretations, it’s art at its core. Though, with all theories all across TH-cam, it’s hard not to get hyped coz I feel like May be a double edged sword for the 3rd movie (whether it’s going to live up to the hype or not)
It's incredibly interesting that there was a lot of recapping of origins with the EXCEPTION of Jessica Drew and Miguel O'Hara. Hobie got an origin intro. Pavitr got an origin intro. Gwen got a reintroduction.
Ultimate Spider-Woman did shoot webs from her fingers, but your observation still holds up as she was never bitten by a spider either. She was a girl clone of Ultimate Peter Parker who also had all the memories of being Peter Parker.
Here's an Extra Layer to Miguel's Hypocrisy... The Entire Premise of WHY he's After Miles and trying to Capture and Trap him and force the "Cannon event" from happening, is WRONG... His Backstory of him Taking the place of his Variant so he can live with his Family left him with the Assumption that "Messing with a Cannon event" is what Causes the Incursions that destroyed that world... But thing is, Miguel Still had HIS Canon Event, and that World ALSO had it's canon event, He took that Miguel's place, but it doesn't change the events that Happened to both, so it shouldn't Cause any problems... Now Consider this: Early in the Movie Miguel says "Don't even get me started on Spider-Man 199999 and his Doctor Strange", That's the MCU, so he's telling us that the events of "No Way Home" Are Canon to this Movie's Timeline... Which Means that the Events of "Mutiverse of Madness" are ALSO Canon... And in MoM, the 838 people (Including Reed Richards), who have a LOT of Experience with all this, Tell us Straight up that the Cause of Incursions is when Someone Who belongs to a different universe Stays around for too long in a Universe that isn't their own... Now Remind me, what was it that Miguel did That Caused that Incursion that Set his Mindset? Yep, that's right, he Stuck around in a Universe that wasn't his own for an EXTENDED Period of time... He Just Misunderstood the Cause, and then built his entire Spider Society around that False Premise... Then he Hunts Miles for that misunderstanding... I'm Also fairly Certain that the Incursion in Mumbattan (Hope I Spelled that Right), wasn't because Miles Stopped a Canon event, it's Because it was someone Foreign to that Universe Did something that would have Major Repercussions on that World... The Reason why Otherworlders Cause Incursions is because their Mere Existence Causes the course of Fated events to Alter, no Matter how careful they are to change as little as possible, their mere presence Causes changes that slowly Unravel the Intended course of that reality... Now Imagine if it's not Tiny Subtle things that get changed, it's Major Events, like Spot Purposefully Blasting that World's Collider causing a Massive Disaster where none was meant to happen, and that Triggering the "Canon Event" of the Death of a Police Chief protecting a Child, Which itself Then gets Prevented by a separate Otherworlder... That's a Lot of Messing with a Dimension's Continuity in a short Amount of time... Canon Events aren't the only Way to Mess with a Reality, nor is breaking one necessarily a thing that will Automatically Break that Reality (Case and point, Many Spiders Never Got Bit, Many Aren't Peter Parker, that's a break in Canon events, yet they exist and their worlds didn't Implode), But they are Linchpin Moments that Will have a Much bigger effect on the Stability of that reality if Disrupted... If those Canon Events were to have been Prevented by the people Native to those worlds, No Incursion would have happened... Oh and Miguel is a Moron, if he Really wanted to preserve the Canon Events, he simply would never have Told Gwen or Miles about them, He'd have Let Miles Go back home without knowing that his dad was supposed to die, if he didn't know about it, it would have Happened as it was supposed to... But Knowledge of Future events is what allows miles to change it.. If he hadn't known, he wouldn't have been able to even try to alter it... Same Goes for Gwen, They Inducted her into the Spider-Society Before that event took place in her world, Meaning that they just gave her a way to Prevent it by telling her about it... Also, Pavitr, why was he even made aware of the Multiverse before his Police Chief Event happened?!? Even if Miguel was RIGHT about the cause of the Universe Imploding Incursion events, He sure as hell went about trying to prevent them in the Worst Way possible. If Anything he All but Guaranteed that those Canon Events would be Broken, or attempted to be be Broken by Literally everyone who didn't already have it happen to them. Because after All, no Spider-Person would EVER Choose to allow their "Captain Stacy" to Die if they had the power to try and stop it... (Except Miguel I Guess, but he's a Psycho, as I just explained... And Gwen in Mumbattan because she Trusts Miguel and Jess way too Much.)
Pavitr didn't get bitten by a spider either, he was gifted spider powers by a Yogi. Miguel, on the other hand, if we talk about the source, does have a spider DNA in him, only instead of a bite he got it through a machine incident in Alchemax while in the terrible experiment of fusing human and spider DNA. He did get a lot of spider DNA, only it was a tarantula or a jumping spider kind rather than a common web-making spider. Those have fangs and everything and are quite feral.
I saw a post on tumblr that basically said since the movie is a call out of people who don't think Miles is worthy. You could read Miguel and Jessica as older POC not liking how the younger generation of POC gets to be a curtain thing while they can't or choose not to. And since the three didn't get the traditional origins it adds to the hypocrisy
That’s a really confusing and from what I understand, a very weird statement. Could you explain this because I don’t see any evidence for this? I’m curious how you got to this conclusion (or how the post you were inspired from got to it).
I think another way of looking at it is that as the older generation they had to suffer a lot to be allowed to be who the are and get where they are in life whereas the younger POC/LGBT spider people like Gwen, Miles and Pavitr don't have that same pushback from society. They're actually able to "come out" to their parents about being spiderman whereas the older spidermen don't even have parents in their story. That's why Miguel wears his trauma as a badge of honour and uses it to gatekeep the Spiderman identity from people like Miles and Gwen. It's not hypocrisy so much that it's the fact that Miguel, Jessica and Ben had to suffer a lot to be accepted as Spider people so they think it's unfair that Miles and Gwen are getting more easily accepted both on an in-universe level by their parents but also on a meta level by fans. Also if you're triggered that I brought up the LGBT community, I just mean it in a subtextual way. If we're just doing textual analysis then it's a POC allegory. If we do a subtextual analysis then the LGBT reading has a lot of legitimacy. If you're confused then I guess the easiest way to explain it would be that, Miles isn't literally LGBT but the scene of him admitting to his mom that he's spiderman is heavily modelled after the experience of a queer person coming out of the closet. It just means that the creators took something from real life and used it to add depth to a fictional interaction.
I really don't think that applies to Miguel though. He was the first hispanic Spider-Man and really the first one written to be Peter's successor in the future. It'd be a shame to throw him under the bus as he's just as much a Spider-Man as Miles.
@@joshred1571 Basically the person was saying that because Miguel and Jessica are POC and Miles is POC, the whole movie is an allegory for the older generation of minorities being angry and jealous that the younger generation get to be free and break from the status quo. Sorry, I’m half-asleep so the original comment is a bit confusing 😅
Something else to note about Miguel in terms of this movie are two other things he is also lacking in addition to the traditional spider origin (at least in this movie). 1. Canonically he has organic web spinnerets, but in the movie he has laser webs (feeling like a definite choice was made to replace or at least obscure a set of his powers). 2. I've only seen it once so far, but I can't remember if he ever has a spider sense tingling "you're like me" moment with anyone... And I'm not entirely sure he even displayed the spider sense at all (going to try and watch again this weekend). In terms of him being an Inheritor... I think that's actually possible... But going down one of two separate routes from the normal comic version. 1. He's a comic style inheritor, but one who has had a change of heart, and who has assumed the identity of Miguel after killing him. His heavy focus on canon is less about protecting the stability of the multiverse, and more about keeping the pattern so as to hide new universes from other inheritors, and his injections are now retconned as derived life essence from each anomaly token sent back through the Go Home machine (so you know... He doesn't starve). 2. Leaning into your theory on non-standard origins, and adding in that Miguel was specifically trying to recreate Peter Parker's powers before his origin story... Inheritor could be flipped around to actually reflect the definition of the word. Miguel sees himself as the inheritor of the spider legacy (or was doing what he could to inherit it with the gene tech). And by using that idea/definition, then gou could possibly roll the other two non-standard spiders in too. 2.
I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure Miguel doesn’t have spider sense because all of his other attributes are extremely enhanced. This leaves him prone to overstimulation but it also means that he can generally tell if an attack is coming without the spider sense.
I also think there's a distinct difference between the way Miguel looks on the computer screen and the Miguel we see today. They don't look that alike. I'm going with him being an inheritor.
I didn’t catch that! Interesting point that you bring up with Miguel’s team! Would’ve been cool if they leaned into this more. Maybe these 3 could’ve also been anomalies? And help Miles(an anomaly)? Solid video Nando!
I've definitely been doing some 'hmming' on the whole Canon Event dilemma and it's relation and differences to how the Spider-man brand has actually worked. On the one hand the Spider Society ARE our antagonists in a story about Miles staying true to himself, so perhaps that's the intent. On the other hand from a certain angle it makes the meta message feel watered down since the complaints of audiences who have a very narrow view of Spider-man clearly aren't having a real impact, so it feels a bit like an easy target. This is at a time where there IS a lot of other controversy around the handling of the Spider-man titles, like Kamala Khan's death coming out the same week. Comparatively the subtext around Miles's rejection specifically has more weight since that racism was certainly very real, and there were the infamous memos on who Spider-man could be on the adaptation side. However we'll probably just have to wait till Beyond to get the full thesis.
What I want to see in the next movie: Miguel, furious, beaten into submission by Miles and his Spider-Team, gathering his society to take them down, and he uses the one word that resonates with every Parker in the multiverse: Menace. He rants, raves, calls Miles a menace that needs to be destroyed, and the veil just drops completely. They're not the heroes anymore. They're the angry old man behind the desk, trying to destroy something because he doesn't understand it and that makes him feel weak and powerless. And then they all turn their backs on him.
I think literally my only issue with across the spider-verse is that there were no duplicate Spider-Men. You mean to tell me that in all the wide multiverse there wasn't another Scarlet spider or Miguel O'Hara? It's not really a big deal and it really didn't even hit me right away. It's sort of came to me as the days went on after initially seeing it. I don't know, maybe there's a comic explanation that I'm not familiar with as to why there are no duplicates? Maybe the filmmakers just wanted to avoid confusion? But I think it would have been funny to have two or three completely identical Spider-Men running around. It would have made for a funny scene or two.
i suppose maybe miguel and his team didn’t want to be redundant? like if there’s two that are identical and bring the same things to the table, miguel could decide he only needs one
Yeah I feel like as we continue to see multiverses in fiction we will continue to see this trend of many individual variants that are unique to the other characters in the film. In theory there are infinite versions of the exact same character with unnoticeable discrepancies. But as far as a narrative goes, seeing a whole bunch of clones is a lot less interesting than seeing a whole bunch of unique characters. I can see why writers wouldn't even try to address how vast infinity is when it comes to other universes as it could be difficult without bogging down the story and it is probably easier to just ignore them.
Something a friend told me that may give you hope is that the reason across took so long was because of Hobie. In order to get his effect right, they made an algorithm to help them or do it for them, which they had to develop and that took a lot of time. But now they've got that algorithm beyond should have less production time than across
I dont have twitter so i couldnt tweet you, but i just started listening to Mostly Nitpicking this weekend and ive binged through soooo many episodes. Love it. I nit pick movies to my brother and he hates it so I was listening to each episode and basically yelling " yes! thank you! Why has no one pointed this out!"
if not being a peter parker gives you some leeway about changing what your canon events are , maybe miguel just wants to force everyone to suffer like he did. maybe he dislikes miles so much not because of anything he did but because if miguel can’t be happy no one can. i do think if this is the case that miguel will have a change of heart even if it takes a lot
My theory is that they’re spider adjacent in the sense of they’re NOT part of the canon, they’re outside of what Spider-Man is. There’s definitely larger forces here at play, like with Kang controlling the TVA, but I’m thinking that these “Spider-Men” were close enough to being a Spider person but just outside of the canon to becoming a true spider person and so whatever higher force is ordaining the multiverse to be structured this way chose these not spider people to rule the spiderverse. Idk meta multiverse stuff is very hard to tackle
I wasn't really aware of the other two's backstories myself, but I was aware of Miguel O'hara's, and I noticed that Miguel never really went through any of the canon events in his that he's so quick to point out. At the very least in my opinion, Miguel is an outsider to the Canon and thus doesn't really have any skin in the game, and at the most, he's lying.
Yeah, I think Miguel's hypocrisy is a really obvious thing. I mean, If you use the information that WE know from the last movie and this one, it's pretty obvious he's wrong about the apocalliptic scenario that comes after a breatch of cannon. He's emotionally damaged and is using the web of life and destiny as a way to make sense of his tragedy by colting it with a venear of algorithm-based logic. What you brought up in the video is just another way that he's wrong. I mean, even Miles calls him out on that during the train chase sequence, but he just sides steps the question and tries to ask the same question to Miles. So not only he's Coping hard with his own tragedy, he is also PROJECTING IT ON MILES!
Maybe the technology miguel had invented to stabalise the spider people while they're in other universes wasn't perfected yet and that lead to the destabalisation of the universe he was hiding away in? And maybe in an act of denial he just refuses to accept that he was the sole cause for that universes collapse?
When I saw the movie I was really expecting them to address that with Miguel, he's the leader of the team and constantly talks about the sacrifice that it takes to be spiderman and how Miles wasn't meant to be spiderman and yet, he's the one who gave himself his powers, in a sense, he's just like miles, an anomaly, they might address this in beyond the spiderverse though, and if they do I feel like that's what will make Miguel stop antagonizing miles and finally join him to stop the spot Also the Jessica drew stuff I wasn't familiar with and with Ben Riley I just forgor that as a clone, he inherently had spider powers
Beyond the spiderverse, the next movie, is scheduled for release summer 2024. My theory is they worked on both movies simultaneously so they could release them with less wait between them :)
i feel like the canon events do exist but spidersociety is putting on too strict limits cause theres such an overwhelming majority with the exact same event. but i think if they generalize the events more it would work. for example: spider related shennagins to get powers, family/friends trauma, evil scientist maybe etc etc
That's what I think as well, there's some leeway. Spider people need things to play out a certain way to complete their origin arc. But they don't need it to happen exactly like each other.
Bro forgot about the Ultimate Comics version of Jessica Drew who was a clone of Spider man, in that version she has organic webs she could shoot out of her fingers.
It should be noted, while we try and draw conclusions from the canon of the comics, the wikis have created pages for the Spider-verse stuff. They specifically made Earth-1610B and Earth-928B to coincide with the movies' Miles Morales and Miguel O'hara (respectively). So it's possible they will re-make their own versions for Beyond the Spider-Verse. The lack of material on Earth-42 implies there wasn't really a comic-canon-adjacent version of it, or maybe it's a new number. But I think it is newly-made, probably because those of us who are Douglas Adams fans knows the number 42 is "The answer to life, the universe, and everything". The team has been quite adapt at not only subverting expectations, but also cleverly fore-telling events using colors and text. Peter B and Miles first meeting Miles has a green/purple color, which now seems to suggest the Earth-42 origin. Also the number 42 was all over the place in Into The Spider-verse. Those who were quick to notice when Miles scanned his retina in the "Go-Home Machine" it flashed "Earth-42" for half a second. And even then the team had subtle color tones during Miles's race home to suggest he may not be in the same dimension. Even Miles's room in Earth-42 looked very different. There were hallmark items like the drawing table and the divider by the window with music, but his usual comic nerd stuff was missing from the shelves. Also his mom mentions "comics-con", and from Into The Spider-verse Miles didn't know what comic-con was, implying Earth-1610B didn't have a comic-con. Also gonna throw this out there since on one seems to mention it. Everyone seems to assume Drew's "very hot" husband is Miguel, but is he really? All of their interactions for very indifferent and professional, there wasn't any real chemistry between them. She was similar to Ben Riley in of being a lieutenant to Miguel, but everyone just seems to assume it's Miguel. There's definitely other questions to be asked (was pulling through the collider spider-42 intentional? Disrupting Mumbattan's canon event implies The Spot and collider had to be involved, why?) but I think everyone should keep in mind the team subverts expectations in a number of ways, and there's more to both movies than it seems before the third releases next year.
I did pick up on this when I watched the film! I think Miguel is projecting his issues onto Miles about being an anomaly because he knows that he himself is not a true Spider-Man, I think this will come up in the sequel
@@ShainaCilimberg it’s not inherently a bad thing to do but if you inadvertently kill everyone in the universe doing it then it becomes bad. they didn’t immediately blame him after he did it but they explained to him what he accidentally did and when he tried to do it again, it became bad
bcs he kinda acts like one, with the teeth and everything, hes not litteraly a vampire espicaillay since gwen calls him a ninja in the same sentence and miguel is no ninja.
One version of Jessica Drew worked for the Inheritors (specifically Morlun) and Miguel in the movie is explicitly stated to have "vampire-like" powers. So maybe let's not cross out that theory yet. ;)
It all feels purposeful to me. There’s no wasted lines in this film, and a lot of attention is drawn to how different Miguel is. There’s something we don’t know yet that will probably be revealed in the next movie
I actually looked it up, while it seems the first actual comic Spider-Woman was white, in 1974, 4 years prior to the Spider-Woman release in 78, Marvel and the Electric Company had a character named Valerie the librarian, and apparently was the first ever 'spider-woman.' Also in the comics they show her shooting webs from her fingers.
i forgot about valerie! i was thinking they just tacked on ultimate!jessica drew's finger webs onto atvs!jessica's powerset but it looks like they just mashed together valerie and jessica drew from the comics to make a new variant. hell, valerie could have just been atsv!jessica drew undercover in her backstory for all we know.
honestly i think you may be over thinking this. the reason why theres not any other typical spidermen in charge is most likely because they simply felt it would be too confusing to have another peter parker in a leading role since we already have one. spider noir is probably the closest we'll get to a second leading peter parker just because hes so different visually from regular spiderman, and even then hes only really there as a supporting character
@@fletchersamaNo way home only had 3 peter Parkers that the audience already knows of. And the spiderverse films already have tons of characters so having another peter parker to remember is too much.
@@IronheartvsMiles sometimes stories are influenced by factors outside of just the realm of the fiction. i dabble in creative writing, even taking some classes on it, and making a story easily understood by your audience is a crucial aspect of that. they might very well reveal some in world reason behind it, but id bet money the leading factor at play here was simply the writers being considerate of the audience. stories are created by people to show to other people and to properly analyze them you need to be aware of that fact
It's not a difficult stretch of interpretation the villain's most trusted lieutenants are people who remind him of himself. Miguel idolized the strength of Peter Parker without understanding who he was as a person and Jessica Drew actively distanced herself from Peter. Likewise, the antagonists dismiss Miles where every Peter Variant Miles has met has been friends with him and mentored him. Hard to write about the themes of the story if you don't address that the villains fundamentally don't understand the philosophy of the person that they are emulating.
Another thing I don't see anyone bring up is the fact that the interdimensional travel watch has the capability of time travel as well. Otherwise, how would Miguel even be there? Noir Spider, Spider-Man 1960s, Young Spectacular Spider-Man, etc.
Someone else noted that almost every spider person is either a variation of Peter Parker or someone from his stories (Ben, Gwen, etc.). Miles and Miguel aren't. (Also Jessica Drew's Spiderwoman). Interesting that the top two of the organization, as well as the person they're most afraid of, are all the most distant from Peter Parker's story.
Good video. This aspect about Miguel being so far from the canonic Spiderman is so intrinsic to the movie that Miles even asks Miguel: "Are you even a Spiderman?" during the train to the Moon scene.
Calling Ben a joke character is very disrespectful, considering the comics went out of their way to establish he is his own character, with his own personality, history, and, yes, even abilities. Ben for example is more savy in engineering then Peter, hence why he upgraded the iconic webshooters (a lot of gimmicks which get used nowadays by Peter in the comics or the Sony Videogame actually were made by Ben). and, again, this shows if people only skim through the Wikipedia articles or only have seen him in this movie (which in general has a different tone then most main line Spider-Man features), because Ben was ALWAYS popular. Even during the clone saga heydays. People can say whatever they want about the clone-sagas overall quality, but both Ben and Kaine were actually beloved by readers, and I know for a fact that, when Ben got written out during the time Marvel scrambled to escape bankruptcy at the end of the 90ies, that sales of the Spider-Man titles actually went down significantly till the Raimi movie created a new generation of fans, who more so came in because of the movie (and less so because of the quality of the comics at the time with a few exceptions like Spider-Girl Mayday. The bigger issue is just that most modern writers at Marvel are just people trying to make their personal headcanons real instead of writing good stories to advance the character/the series, combined with an editorial that doesn't understand that people like progression in stories instead of that abyssmal limbo we are in right now, even if this means we have to move on to a new character wearing the mask of our beloved hero and continuing thier legacy.
u cant blame the game for the impact shooters tho cause itd be kinda weird to have Ben already established in the universe before even Green Goblin and Jackal
@@michaellabonte6390 I didn't blame the game, just pointing out that these new abilities of the webshooters were not done by Pete, but by Ben. Blaming the game would be if I also point out that the game also tried to take away Bens honestly way better Spider-Man suit and give to Peter - By only making the spider on the chest white instead of black. and no, Marvel tried multiple times to transfer Bens costume to Peter one way or the other, same why Warner does with Barry Allen and Wally west because fanboys are at the helm, and not good writers/caretakers.
@@EnerKaizer meh its a diff continuity. Hel the Ulimate Spider-Man comics are some of the best spider-man comics and that universe has Jessica instead. End of the day he was meant to be revealed as the real parker so all of his plot his still valid for Peter. esp since the elements u bring up are cool things and I dont think we should have to wait for Ben (a literal copy of the guyy who is making it ) to invent them himself. As for the suit I agree but Idc. I would LOVE if they gave Peter a more Ben style dsign cause ur right its just better! Tho personally i prefer when the spider is drawn to blend into the blue. I just love Big spider designs on Spider-Man But tb Ben is literally a copy so why is it a big deal his tech ideas were stolen? everything he is was created by some od pervert to copy Peter. His powers? Peter. His INITIAL spider tech? Peter. The belt? A bulky version of peters. They are literally the same character in terms of personality up to a fork in their paths of the clonage. They remember the same childhood. I think their feats should be synonymous and serve the plot they are dealing with at the time. So because Ben is a clone ofc Peter will get the credit. But when they were writing that orignally, they planned on Ben BEING the OG PETER SO WHATEVER
So much like how I've seen people call across the spidervers 'spiderverse 2' just cause its easier, I'm gonna go with spider gwen instead of ghostspider. Also just like that name better.
Also Miguel blames miles as the first anomaly but his break of cannon was the first to have consequences in that world. Also Jess tells Gwen not to get attached but she has a loving husband and is LITERALLY PREGNANT!
The inheriters was a great story I feel like they can do the inheritors right The the only thing that will validate the spidey verse or atleast mado web
@@asdfoifhvjbkaos in my eyes we were shown a Vulture from and Alt universe right at the beginning of the movie and explained how other villians have been misplaced and also shown a live action Prowler and Venomverse. They didn't outright show vture or Morbius but I think it's a way for them to get away with Vulture showing up in the MCU again like it never happened
@@jlev1028 I agree 100 percent (I couldn't get 10 minutes into the movie) I'm moreso excited that Micheal Keaton can return to MCU like it never happened
On the train Miles says to Miguel, "Are those claws? Are you sure you're even Spider-man?" That's when Miguel gets really upset and tells Miles that he is the original anomaly. So there is definitely a nod to it there. I think we might find out more about their origins in the next one. At least Miguel's.
Extremely interesting. I think 100% that in BTSV we are going to find out that the whole “canon” deal is a lie from Miguel. I mean we can straight up see that Spot’s powers are responsible for SM India’s world collapsing and not the canon being disrupted.
@@aakashsahani2991 I think you’re thinking too much about it. I doubt that Sony Animation was keeping the MCU timeline in mind when they wrote the story.
Go back and rewatch Miles meeting Spider-man for the first time in the reactor. The colors change from Purple/Green (Prowler) to Red/Blue (Spiderman), showing his fate changed in those moments. This wasn't picked up at all only until after Spiderverse 2 released. I feel like there's a lot of hidden elements that are super preplanned to the trilogy, and I guarantee this will be a huge payoff in Beyond. Something is afoot.
True I caught that in the first film as well. And if the reactor changes Miles' fate then that means reactors both fuck with cannon events and meld and destroy reality. Spot is actually a walking talking reactor. Peter Parker knew his time was up in that scene I think🤔 Cus his actions changed from just stopping kingpin to motivating Miles.
@@Max_The_Flower “Hi, I’m Nando, I V Movies” is an intro he uses on his main channel fairly often. Yeah it’s not his real name but it’s clearly the name he wants to be referred as online
I saw the outlier in Miguel and Jessica as Miguel has biological powers rather than radiation powers. He has his talons to cling to walls unlike most other Spider-People who can just stick to walls, he has organic webbing rather than web shooters which I found really odd in the movie he has these energy web shooters maybe he’s trying to cover it up or it’s just his new suit. He doesn’t have a Spider-Sense instead he just enhanced vision (which is why he is usually in the dark because he’s sensitive to sunlight) and enhanced hearing instead of a sixth sense. He also had fangs and a venomous bite so like an actual spider he bites his foes to paralyze them. He also fights completely different to Spider-Man with a more wild style since he uses his talons, of course he’s still acrobatic but tears through his villains rather than punching. He also can’t retract his fangs or talons so he is very much a spider like man rather than your traditional Spider-Man. Jessica Drew though her origins are all over the place since she was mainly made to get the trademark for Spider-Women. Again more biological powers and a different power set than Spider-Man with the ability to fly abit, electric blast from her arms, some versions she shoots webbing from her finger tips. Very much an outlier amongst the Spider-People. Then Ben is a clone, so he is lacking in those base canon events that Peter had but also is a really tragic character with a a lot of bad stuff happening to him so I do agree with others in the comments that he is like the perfect Spider-Man in Miguel’s eyes other than Lego Spider-Man the best agent of them all who is also an outlier since he is all bricks and shoots out plastic webs from out of nowhere
Something else I noticed was that not a single member of Miguel's inner circle were Peter parkers, or even Parker adjacent like Peni Parker or Pavitr Prabhakar. Instead it's Jessica Drew, Hobie Brown, Ben Riley, Margo Kess, and Miguel O'Hara himself. Sure, he interacts with Parkers like Peter B. and Lego Peter, but the closest you get with his inner circle is a clone of Peter. Connect that with Nando's observation on the origin discrepancy, and I genuinely think they may touch on this in Beyond the Spider-Verse.
Hobie was not part of the inner circle lol
Lego Spiderman definitely in the inner circle, he's one of their best
Ben Riley is kinda a peter Parker I mean he is still a clone
Peter B. was still there when Miguel's universe or some others universe collapsed tho
Peter B was with Miguel tho when a universe collapsed. Seems like he went to Peter B for help regarding that issue
Even if you're not aware of the comic origins, the movie very much you off a lot that at least Miguel's not your typical Spider-Man. He doesn't stick to walls, he has claws that he uses to latch onto things. His "webs" are energy-based whereas everyone else in this film has traditional webbing. He moves and fights very viscerally and even bares fangs in multiple scenes. We also see him injecting something into his shoulder during his first scene, which tips the audience off right away that he's a little different. He fights more like a wild beast or like Venom than he fights like a typical Spiderman. Miles even comments on it near the end of the film, saying "man, you sure you're really Spiderman?"
Nope he may not be your classic Spider-Man with the powers but he still is one
@@ingram4056 He said, "not your typical Spider-Man". Still a Spider-Man!
To clarify: His powers are more biologically accurate. He has paralytic venom in his fangs, 360 vision instead of Spider-Sense, spider claws, and biologically made webbing (except in the movie, they switched it to hard-light futuristic webbing)
@@diegopansini3152that’s because his dna was fused with a spider rather than being bitten by one
He also doesn't seem to have a Spider-sense, given the way Vulture clocked him in the opening fight.
Easier to ensure that "Peter Parkers" don't break canon when you're not one. Miguel, Jess, Ben, and Gwen all fit that.
Curiously, Miles also fits that.
Except, as it was addressed in the movie, Miles was a result of an anomaly when the Earth-42 Spider entered the universe and stayed there long enough to bite Miles.
Miguel, Ben, Jessica, and Gwen all have different canons to how their story goes. For example, everyone has their Uncle Ben but Gwen lost her friend, Peter.
@@TheLoserface45not everyone loses their uncle ben, some lose a captain, some lose aunt may, some fight venom, some fight prowler
The vast majority aren't named Peter lol
I don’t understand what the first sentence you typed is saying
Origin stories aside, I really like how Ben is one of Miguel's most trusted lieutenants. Not only do they have a lot in common as extremely '90s characters, but according to Miguel's worldview, Ben Reilly is the perfect Spider-Man.
According to Miguel, what makes a Spider-person is trauma. Losing loved ones, and feeling guilt about how they couldn't save them, is what teaches them about power and responsibility and all the rest. And he doesn't think that any Spider-person who hasn't gone through those Canon events is trustworthy, because he thinks they haven't learned the lessons that make them a real hero.
So to Miguel, Ben is the best Spider-Man because he's the most traumatized. The fact that he's constantly ruminating over his dark past is, to Miguel, what shows that he takes his job seriously and that he's learned the right lessons from his life. And the way the movie absolutely clowns on Ben for every second that he's onscreen shows how unhealthy that mindset really is.
well, at least they kept the comic accuracy of Ben being done dirty by the authors. shame on them
Im looking at the wall they seem normal
I don't know. The way the movie presents it makes it feel like Miguel is using the trauma explanation to justify his dogmatic adherence to the canon, so following the canon should be a more important part of the perfect spider-man than trauma.
@@LucenProjectwell to Miguel following canon is trauma, and we haven’t seen Ben do anything to show that he has any desire to do that so
@@yeahey5947 but if it was just trauma, he could replace it with any other trauma. Instead he says it's very specific events. He's catalogued them and assigned them identifiers showing their uniqueness and making them more than just "trauma".
Ultimate Jessica Drew was a clone of Peter Parker in the ultimate universe. She could shoot webs out of her fingertips.
I live Ultimate Jessica Drew. Such a underrated character
Ultimate Jessica Drew was cool, Silk is cool, but shooting webs out of your fingertips is disgusting lol
Ahhhhh that's a good point
My favorite version of the character. She was really compelling.
It can't be here because Peter isn't black. It's more of a mix between Valerie the Librarian and Jessica Drew.
The story also goes out of its way to point out that Miguel is really not a lot like Spider-Man. He says himself that he's different from the others and Peter B. says "You're the only one of us who's not funny. You know, we're supposed to be funny."
Everything about the story points out that "cannon" or no, Miles *feels* more Spider-Man and has more Spider-Man heart than Miguel does.
Funny enough, OG Miguel does throw around jokes and is kind of a jerk, but when he's using the costume he gets more serious. It changes a bit with time as he gets more into the hero thing. This version of Miguel has gone through some serious shit, so yeah, I think his mood is justified
I honestly expected the view to bring up how none of the three in the movie really cracks jokes. Who knows tho. BTW Pav was also not bitten by a spider. Hell even Peter Porker is technically not bitten by a spider, he was a spider bitten by a pig lmao.
It's weird that he was a little more cheerful on the post-credit scenes in Into The Spider-verse, to then shift into this. Later on, we don't get into his backstory unlike most of the spider-people that play a major role and most of his powers can easily be credited by the use of technology, rather than actual spider powers... Only thing this Miguel has in common with the Comics one is light sensibility and those fangs of his... Wanna know what else has those qualities? A vampire. Is there an enemy that heavily resembles a vampire that specifically targets spider-people?
@@ethangnasher3848 Morlun, and Spidey had a few scuffles with Morbius before, but it's mostly Morlun
@@sparking023 It's always Morlun in the Spider-verse!
*Always Sunny in Philadelphia's intro song plays in the background.*
if I learned anything from ATSV, its that hints for the direction of the series were hidden in ITSV (spider 42 glitching, miles' purple/green spider-sense, etc). so i trust the filmmakers enough to believe this will become SUPER relevant in BTSV, because you're right that it would be a pretty wild coincidence that these three spider-people just happen to be the ones hunting miles atm
Personally speaking, the overall theme of Across the Spiderverse can easily be "rejecting generational trauma."
The old guard and those who have suffered under "canon events" try to enforce the idea that Spider people must suffer these trauma's to preserve what they know. It can easily be represented as a metaphor for older generations putting younger generation through trauma because "I went through that and I turned out fine."
While the newer guard look at the evidence, sees the contradictions and goes. "No. I don't want your tauma."
i don't want your tauma either
Like the knights of the sun wanting Morty to cut his own dick off?
I thought I was the only one who saw the generational thing. The adults have resigned themselves to "this is how the world is" type of mentality and the kids are trying to change that, interesting ideas here
Problem: Miguel has proof of what’s going on.
@@Joseph_Drew_III the canon events may not be the whole story given that miles' and the other miles' universes are intact or at least seem to be.
The more i think about the two films so far the more i think Miles' art piece of "no expectations" is one of the through-lines for the series. Is Miles subverting expectations for what his parents want for him as a son and student. But he's also doing his own thing as a spider-man, and striking out against the Spider Society. Gwen ignores the rules and visits Miles, against expectations as a Spider Society member. Hobie backs up Miles, Spider-Byte lets Miles escape, etc. Every Spider in both films is struggling with expectations- and subverting them or subjecting them on others. Miguel *expects* all the spiders to agree with him, accept their canon events because that's the way it has to be. But what if one of the cornerstones of a Spider is 'no expectations'? We all know 'with great power comes great responsibility.' and ' you can't save everyone'. But what if a deeper spider-man truth is to have 'no expectations' and be yourself. because any one could, and can wear the mask. It's inside all of us. And Miles is proving that to everyone. In part 3, he'll become the most spider-man'd spider-man that has ever donned the mask. And he did it his way #Sinatra-Spider
Beautifully put!
Honestly, my feeling is that it’s easier to have main characters if they aren’t all Peter. The fact that the main circle weren’t bitten by spiders is in my opinion a byproduct of using more well-known spider-verse characters, as well as ‘classic’ non-Peter characters with older origins, as opposed to more recent characters who form more of the rank-and-file, such as spider-Gwen.
I mean yes, but they do make quite a deal out of the fixed features of Spider-Man. How everything must be rigid and unchanged, *including* the bite. So it's interesting that Miguel, Jess, and Ben do not actually fit this type. Especially since Scarlet Spider doesn't seem to be totally all there compared to the other two
@@aromaladyellieI don’t think they were saying the canon event is that you HAVE to get bitten. It’s that Miles was not supposed to be bitten at all by the spider from 42 and, as a result, he should not have become Spider-Man in his universe.
I wonder if not being bitten by a spider makes them "non-canon" in a low-key way - i.e not a 'true' spiderman. Something that sticks out when Miles said to Miguel "You have claws?? Are you sure you're a spiderman?" or something like that. Feel like it's hinting at something that we might see in the sequel next year.
Technically, Spider-Ham was a spider bitten by a radioactive pig and I think it'd be a weird message to say you can only be Spider-Man if you were bitten by a radioactive spider. Miguel has also always had claws. He doesn't stick to things like most Spider-People. He was also the first Spider-Man to have organic webbing in the comics, but that seems to be ignored in the movie.
But pavitir wasn't bit by a spider either. Nor was mayday Parker seen in a few scenes. As well as other spidermen and spiderwomen
Spider 42 was meant to bite Miles in Earth 42. And there was already a spiderman in 1610. So... It kinda seems like maybe the point is that Miles does not have to follow the path of the typical spiderman.
@@blkvnm6003 mayday Parker is a child of a peter you don't need a spider bite to get genetic powers.
I think how they got their powers is more of a literary device to reflect their inner characterization; a visual representation of just how different they are from every other Spider-Man. Sure, how they got their powers technically makes them different, but what truly sets them apart is their actions, especially Miguel's. Spider-Man has never been a pragmatist, and I mean that as compliment. What makes Spider-Man a true hero is the fact that the only life he will ever be willing to trade is his own, especially when innocent people are involved. Miguel has never been that way. He is strictly about the greater good, and he often has to be coaxed into saving people when it diverts from the main task at hand.
Does anyone get the feeling that Jess had some major off screen character arc between recruiting Gwen and meeting Miles? Her personality shifts entirely.
I almost get the feeling she split with her partner or something.
Perhaps, it might have to do with her motivation to follow Miguel, maybe something happened to her universe and she was hardened
@@greywarden5513 one thing that bothers me is that she's evidently very far into her pregnancy when she meets Gwen and if that was a few months before meeting miles, she'd surely be about ready to pop by then
I didnt like jessica at all in this movie, she made no sense.
@@NateThurlow might be a joke about cartoon characters who stay pregnant forever
@@asdfoifhvjbkaos I mean female spiders do have a lot of babies...
I heard a galaxy-brain theory about who actually architected spider-society: Otto Octavius as the Superior Spider-man.
His story is one where he was actually converted from villain to hero specifically because he experienced Peter's traumas and life events. It's easy to consider that he was so deeply affected by those events that he came to see them as crucial to creating a hero.
Moreover, in the Superior Spiderman original run, he actually meets Miguel and they team up to try to stop the Green Goblin. Otto is wearing Peter's face, so it would be easy to see how he could use Peter's credibility to convince everyone of the importance of canon events.
And, like Miguel in ATSV, Otto is actually known to lack Peter's sense of humor and is far more straightforward and even serious in the way he talks.
I feel like that would be too complicated, they’d have to rehash the motivation scenes and everything. Why does there need to be another setup? We’ve got Miguel already to fill that role and it would take time away from the spot storyline
@@seth8580Exactly. One can dream though
Tbf tho Miguel was designed to contrast Peter entirely so it makes sense that there’s overlap.
Tbf tho Miguel was designed to contrast Peter entirely so it makes sense that there’s overlap.
And Superior Spider-Man's model was already shown in the Spider Society
I've been under the impression that Miguel is just... *wrong.*
For example, he slotted himself in with another universe's dead Miguel's family till it went to crap. That the *exact* same thing that Kingpin tried to do in the first movie! Just the people who go to a different universe change is all. Miguel is pulling villain moves with a better "motive" is all.
what about the fact that when miles saved the captain in pavitr’s universe it started to fall apart?
@@justintrujillo8483 honestly that’s more the Spot’s fault more than anything else
Miguel will probably be wrong but Miguel entering into another universe is different from the Kingpin pulling people from another universe. Plus Miguel's motivation is implied to be rooted in the guilt over possibly causing this and is seeking to stop anyone else from doing similar.
@@justintrujillo8483 Counter point: Why is Miles the Prowler? If the Spider-Man canon is so crucial to the multiverse, how can a spider never bite anyone, there never be a Spider-Man of any sort, and NYC can become as crime ridden as Gotham without any ramifications whatsoever?
For that matter, how does protagonist Miles own reality exist when Spider-Man died and Miles took over? The other Spider-Mans weren't replaced by a younger kid version of themselves. Why doesn't that affect the canon?
Two timelines that haven't collapsed despite complete altering the "Spider-canon" within the film already.
The whole thing doesn't really stand up to its own logical scrutiny. It also doesn't fit with.....the most basic Marvel multiverse concept. It doesn't matter how much you bork things up, it doesn't collapse reality. It splits off another branch, a new thread in the web.
@@ninjafoxgamesgeekery the way that i interpreted the “spider canon” was that the universes with spider-man had very specific events and if they didn’t have spider-man then those events didn’t matter. since 42 had no spider-man then the spider-man canon events didn’t need to happen. i just don’t understand why people see miguel as a villain because he’s doing his best to save as many people as possible after seeing what altering canon events can do
Maybe the reason they're part of the inner circle is because they aren't Spider-Men, and thus aren't bound to canon events the way people like Spider-Man India, or Gwen, or Peter B are, whether they know it or not. I noticed how Peter B said "if it weren't for Uncle Ben, **most** of us wouldn't be here". Obviously he could just be referring to the fact that not everyone's "Uncle Ben" was actually Uncle Ben, but it could also be a hint that not everyone who works for Miguel had an Uncle Ben at all. Idk, it's just a thought.
Might just be a thought but it's a good ass thought
It's a great ass thought.
No we see in the movie that Spider-Women is bound by canon events. It's in the background but when Miguel is showing Miles all the universes, you can see Jessica having a Canon event in one of the webs
@@CatholicPiccoloyeah that’s true but maybe Peter Parkers are more likely to break the cannon then non Peter Parkers
Miles also didn't have an Uncle Ben. Neither did Gwen. Peter B doesn't need to be hinting at anything sinister with that.
Jessica Drew was the main character in her own cartoon show. The origin I know was that as a child she got sick and her dad was a scientist who made a cure for her disease and it gave her spider powers.
There's also something fishy going on with the whole collapsed universe and canon in general and why miguel is so upset at miles.
Miles didnt actually do anything wrong or break the canon, spot did. Spot brought the spider over so he broke the canon. Then when miles broke the reactor, because spot broke the canon and miles wouldnt be there without him, then spot basically created himself in a roundabout way. Miles was in the same position as that of 42 miles, they both had their destiny changed by spot, theyre both victims, and miles isnt the original anomaly.
And if miles is an anomaly then so is mayday, because mayday doesnt exist without miles, but mayday is a canon spiderman in the comics. But peter b didnt have his universe fall apart, neither did miles or 42 miles. Id imagine a universe with no spiderman at all would be destroyed rather than continue existing.
Now as for why Pav's universe started falling apart, i think that was due to the spot and the reactor, not due to any canon. After the spot leaves we see the alchemex building fall apart with similar darkness n stuff but that was easily understood as the reactors fault.
As for why miguels universe destroyed itself, i think it was because a spiderman was trying to live as another universes spiderman. Like if peter b tried to be peter in miles universe the same thing could have happened.
Wasn't that 2099 universe a deadMiguel's? No the one we see in the movie. The one on screen assumes the life of his dead variant ... I think
spot had erasure powers!
It can be seen 3 times in the movie
First scene: Miles and his dad fighting spot, once they go to Alchemax (The collider), Spot holds the Alchemax sign and it disappears into nothing
2nd instance:
The Alchemax building in Spiderman India's universe also disappears the same way the sign did
3rd instance:
The Hole in the middle of Mumbatten looks like the spots holes rather than a universe tearing itself apart
Yes. This articulates many of my thoughts about why Miguel isn’t telling the whole truth about Miles being the original anomaly and why anomalies and universes can fall apart.
The explanation he gives is simple enough and easy to understand on the surface but there’s also enough to wonder when you look at it more broadly that there must be more to it. And that thing about canon events kinda seemed like he was full of shit. Like in Mumbattan would that anomaly hole not have happened if Miles had let that police captain die? And why was that deemed a canon event when that only would have happened as a result of the Spot going there from Miles’ universe and activating the collider to become more powerful. Why was Miles deemed wrong to have saved that one person but all the other people he and everyone else saved were completely fine. It seems a bit contrived on Miguel’s part and none of his followers seem to wanna question it because of the power and authority he holds. Hobie’s willingness to defy Miguel is a clear sign to me that Miguel has the makings of a fascist. And i don’t think the full extent of his goals have been revealed nor has the full extent of his back story. The reason he has to inject himself wasn’t explicitly revealed in the movie, nor has the origins of how he got his somewhat unusual powers
I think Mayday isn't considered an anomaly is because Peter and MJ were probably gonna have her either way and Peter would've fixed himself on his own eventually if he never got pulled by the Collider.
@@AnDrei-nf5jb The canon he described also applied to him just living in a different universe, weird things to note here are the fact that this should have happened to both Miles universes by now considering both of them were highly changed.I don't actually see how him just showing up in a different universe destroyed a universe, if that the case Gwen showing up should have disrupted the Canon of Miles world.How come Miles world is even considered canon? Because he became spiderman? If it's not canon then him saving his father should have no consequences as Miguel would have to find a way to fix Miles universe anyways which would mean he never becomes spiderman anyways.If canon exists then Miguel has to rid the universe of miles to begin with, if not everything should collapse. another funny thing to note is the universe the spidermen are staying at in the movie. Where exactly are they? Are they in 2099s universe?If so why isn't that dimension collapsing? Two spidermen in one dimension disrupted the Canon whatever dimension they're in should be a far bigger danger than miles(who 2099 would technically have to get rid of alongside mayday anyways)who just wants to save his dad(who technically shouldn't have died in universe if he already died in 42 miles universe, that was never technically canon to begin with)
I find it weird that Miles' universe didn't collapse when he was bit by the spider and his Peter died. That should have already qualified as breaking canon.
I think you're also forgetting that Peter B Parker was Miguel's other right hand man until he failed to capture Miles. Idk if there's something there honestly I think it's just more about having some more recognisable characters to feature more heavily in the next movie instead of generic spidey recolours
I heard that both Peter b and Miguel actually met before. The theory states that they are the same Miguel and Peter from Edge of Time and Shattered Dimensions, I doubt it but maybe they did have a similar event before.
@@wolfcharlie3771 Peter B was there in the Flash back when Miguel caused the Universe to fall apart. Peter B was helping him to try and save people
Well when you think about peter b.'s kid, mayday is a spider person with no spider since she inherited her powers from her father. So while he's a regular spider guy his baby that is always with him isn't
@@wolfcharlie3771omg, I don’t know why people keep bringing up edge of time lol. Edge of time is kind of a sequel to shattered dimensions and that was also a spiderverse game. Miguel and peter B have just experienced multiverse travel for the first time during into the spiderverse. And Edge of time peter wouldn’t be on miguel’s side because he believed in always trying to save someone if you have the chance to. Miguel also learns this when he saves Mary Jane by doing what peter says.
The line that really struck me was when Peter B. shows up while Miguel is giving Miles the whole spiel and Peter butts in with like "Lighten up man, Spider-Man is supposed to be funny." And at face value, it just seems like a little joke about how gritty and self-serious Miguel is. But if you happen to know Miguel's comic backstory, it takes on a completely different meaning. What if Miguel isn't funny... because Miguel isn't a True Spider-Man? Miles isn't the original anomaly, Miguel is.
I’ve definitely been caught up on how different Miguel is in particular from the “canon” he claims is so important. Miguel is really a Spider-Man in name only, every event highlighted in the movie simply doesn’t apply to him. I don’t know if he’s actually a secret villain, I think it’s more simple and thematic for him to simply be misguided, but there are a LOT of subtle points against Miguel that require meta knowledge to recognize.
I'd be a bit disappointed if Miguel turned out to be a straight-up villain. He was the original successor to Spider-Man in the comics. He's also the first hispanic Spider-Man. He's just as much Spider-Man as any of the others. It'd also be weird to say you're not Spider-Man if you weren't bit by a radioactive spider.
@@andrewli6606 well i guess one of the main themes of the movie is that "anyone can be spider-man", so i doubt they'd go against that by saying Miguel *isn't* spider-man
@@andrewli6606 I think they’re just pointing out the hypocrisy. You’re right, it is weird to say that but Miguel says Miles isn’t a real Spider-Man and he WAS bitten, so he’s basically a huge hypocrite
@@seth8580 in that aspect yes but I think he meant that Miles wasn’t supposed to be bitten by the spider but
@@ingram4056 yeah he wasn’t, I’m just saying that the circumstances shouldn’t change the fact he has a right to the Spider-Man name
This is an amazing observation and shows that the writers behind Across the Spider-Verse really thought this story through. I think it’s going to pay off powerfully in Beyond the Spider-Verse.
I feel like Ben Reilly is an understated character from the fact the first movie straight up felt like it was HEAVILY inspired by some beats of the clone saga where Ben Reilly became mainline spider-man. You got Peter Parker with blonde hair and an organized lifestyle to which Ben at his best is able to accomplish, Miles is like Ben Reilly when it comes to feeling overshadowed by the name of Spider-Man and at first trying to live like Peter Parker and his Spider-Man. But then overall having to find his own identity whether as another Spider-Man or someone else entirely. Miguel is close to Ben Reilly because of the fact they both have experiences of filling someone else's life as well and literally having another life given to them for a bit. And maybe he associates the Peter Parker that Miles's universe had with Ben Reilly,
I fully expect Madame Web to make an appearance in the next movie. She will "solve" the problem between Miles and Miguel by saying they're both half right. These canon events need to happen but not at the time and not in the exact order that Miguel thinks they do. There's wiggle room to their fates.
Great theory
That would be great!
I think that won't happen, due to it seeming that Miguel is mistaken about what went wrong, due to cognitive bias he formed around his trauma, which he's now trying to enforce. Much more likely, as MatPat theorized, Miguel caused the destruction of that world where he replaced himself because he was a being from another dimension causing an "incursion" event, breaking that reality.
I would like to see Madam Web back, though!
My guess is the wiggle room is that each and every single universe has their own personal canon. That no two Spider-People follow the exact same events. Also that it is possible to reject these events...But there are severe consequences to them and the universes that unravel are actually the lucky ones. As the worst case scenarios are the worlds that live but are irreversibly Broken/Doomed/Left to Rot...Like 42, Zombies, Darkhold, Spider's Shadow, Poison and Ruins etc.
You mean Dakota Johnson in live action? That would be horrible.
Peter Porker, aka Spider Ham, did not get bitten by a radioactive spider; he was a spider that got bitten by a radioactive pig, lol
This is a very interesting observation! I definitely think that this will play a part in Beyond the Spider-Verse and will have Miguel realize that there is more to being Spider-Man than canon
I think the hypocrisy might persist without it, because of course Miguel's notion that Miles has to preserve the canon is being aimed at someone who (by Miguel's own definition) is outside that canon. Additionally the canon violation that Miguel claims proves his theory, is levels of magnitudes more serious than the ones he's policing (depending of course on how long he pretended to be AltMiguel).
And another amusing sting, Miguel gets hurt by another layer of secret identity, which just underlines the fact that keeping secret identities from ones loved ones is rarely a responsible course of action, which helps highlight the secondary theme of the film with Gwen and Miles (though of course Gwen has solid reason to think that if she reveals her identity, she'll be in immediate danger).
I think this really cool, because like the canon, Secret Identities have sort of snuck as 'Just that thing superheroes do' and we've largely stopped thinking about the specific things they do in the narrative and the lives of the characters. I've never really understood the claim that 'secret identities help keep my loved ones safe' because if you trust your loved ones, there's no reason not to tell them and if they knew, then when a villain popped up, they'd know that they need to be careful or be able to help the hero. It just leaves a situation where the only people who know the hero's identity, are the villains. I think this also got briefly examined in Invincible with Amber, but I'm really excited to see Spider-verse getting more critical with tropes and I'm kind of hopeful it can get people thinking more about common superhero features like canon, secret identities, responsiblity etc.
If you want to keep a secret, drive into the desert and tell a jack rabbit.
Then, shoot the rabbit.
That's the thing about secrets. They rarely get kept. One way or another, it gets out. Someone lets it slip. I agree eventually the closest to the hero have to be told the truth, but there's a reason it's a compelling aspect for super heroes.
In Peter's original case, he didn't think Aunt May could handle it with her health problems. Plus she thought Spider-Man was a villain. Add on the guilt Peter feels around Ben's death and he was also *afraid* to tell her. But even if he did and she accepted it, he would have been afraid that her worrying about him off doing Spider-Man stuff would have killed her weak heart.
Usually it makes sense. It's actually a pretty big deal to just tell someone that. I mean mark doesn't tell his gf because they were barely dating for a few months. He liked her but he needed more time. As for Peter guy above me stated it. And Peter never really had cause to tell any of his friends. MJ apparently knew the entire time from when they first met in the iconic tiger panel. And that's why she was always so cool with Peter flaking. And she never once let it slip. But other than that nobody knew or needed to know. Aa for Miles I think for him the conflict has more to do with his own personal conflict of identity and his future. He already feels threatened as Miles and kinda wants to keep the Spider-Man bit to himself but also really wants to share that part of himself with them. But he's just not sure they'll accept it. I mean he told his own dad to get of his ass. Dude is clearly annoyed with them.
Oh man that reminder of Invincible and the college admissions episode where Mark ends up revealing his secret identity to Amber. I’m having PTSD flashbacks to how terrible that episode was. Good lord, that one episode ruined that whole show for me. Also that Amber character sucks so damn much in that show
Yeah the concept of secret identities always frustrates me... because all too often they're like "I gotta keep it a secret to protect you" but my guy, its ONLY a problem if the _villains_ learn your identity. You should totally be able to tell your close family members, so long as your family isn't stupid enough to go revealing your identity to the public.
@@lasercraft32 "If you want to keep a secret, go into the desert and tell the a jackrabbit. Then, shoot the rabbit."
You're basically telling the people closest to you "I go out and do the most dangerous things imaginable and every day I'm not here in front of you, I might be dead. Also, what I'm doing might be terribly illegal."
What's the first thing you're told to do when you win the major lottery? Do. not. tell. anyone. You maybe tell your spouse and your parents and even the parents are questionable. Experts advise you tell as few people as conceivably possible at first because word gets out and the wolves come to your door. You need to have everything worked out with lawyers and accountants before even your family knows.
Now apply that to a situation you can't have things protected via simple legal set ups.
It's a more realistic aspect that adds drama that people dismiss as silly, but honestly I think it's more reasonable the more you think on it. Writers just haven't approached it seriously in a long time.
This is kinda off topic, but I realized it while you were talking about Jessica Drew’s powers. All three of the black spider people (Jessica, Miles, Hobie) have some kind of electric blast powers that I don’t think we see from any other spider people. Which is kinda neat, but also continues the weird trend of black heroes with electric powers, so that’s weird
When did Jess use electricity powers?
@@jordanloux3883in the comics always
Naw the weird trend for black superheroes is built proff powers. But yeah that is cool though.
@@jordanloux3883 she didn’t in this movie, but considering the character has had them in most comic iterations, she likely will later. And to my point, she’s the version they decided to make black in this one, not any of the others without electric powers, continuing the trend
Growing up my favourite Spiders were Ben and Miguel and somehow I got them both in one movie and not, at the same time. Amazing movie, sad about my boys.
when Miguel starting talking about how Miles wasn't supposed to be bit, I really thought the reveal was going to be that Spider-42 was from Miguel's universe, and the reason he uses tech rather than having radioactive abilities is because Miles took it from him. "You weren't supposed to be Spider-Man. I WAS." That kinda thing but maybe less melodramatic. I think it being from a universe where a different Miles was supposed to be bit is better, I just thought I'd share since you brought up Miguel not having traditional Spidey powers.
That would've been a fun plot twist
@@PaintSplashProductions it would've been fun but I think it's a bit too safe for this team of writers.
@@fnpoolguy Yeah, that’s not creative enough for this amazing crew
@@fnpoolguy Agreed. The fact that my initial thought wasn't what they went with shows they're doing a good job
Miguel isn't powered by a radioactive spider in the comics, so that'd be a major departure from the character.
Honestly, with how much the movie plays up the "vampire" aspect, I worry that Miguel might secretly be Morlun, gathering all the various Spider-People together as a trap. I really hope they don't do that, since I think the idea that he just has a different answer to the trolley problem of "save a loved one or the universe" is a more interesting foil to Miles and Gwen than just "Surprise! He's actually evil," but the thought's been stuck in my head since I saw the movie.
I highly doubt it. Like they’ve talked about Miguel’s character complexity in some interviews and unless this is some fucking 4D chess conspiracy to straight up gaslight the entire world, I’m gonna say that Miguel is probably exactly who he’s portrayed to be.
I would hate it if they make Spider-Man 2099 a villain
I doubt he’s gathering the spider people as a trap, as we see him be hesitant to invite people to the spider society before
@@cartoonishidealism582 can you hit me up with those cuz even though I'm familiar with the reason behind Miguel's powers I've actually started to worry that they might write that in and I'm hoping it's just fandom bs getting to me (a lot don't seem to realize that Miguel in the movies is the opposite of his comic self which I'm hoping is just the result of breaking canon)
5:55 the finger webs are a refrence to spider woman from the ultimate universe
Nando you forgot baby MayDay Parker. She wasn't bitten by a spider either, she just got them through genetics from her dad.
Maybe she's a double agent 😆
🤣😂 That's cute
Miguel was about to do his introduction in the cold open but I think Gwen cut him off so we didn’t get to see the full thing
That’s a really good point that, having never read the comics, I didn’t realize! Another commenter also pointed out that none of Miguel’s inner circle are Peter Parker’s or even Peter Parker “adjacents” (Peni Parker, Pavitr Prabhakar, Peter Parkedcar, Peter Porker, etc.) so this will most likely be brought up in the next movie because there’s no way all of these things are by coincidence.
I'm so mad I didn't think about this the whole time . Keep up the great work bro 💪🏼
Actually Jessica Drew shooting webs out her fingers is pulled straight from the Ultimate comics where she's a clone of Peter.
You didn't mention this, but the reason that Jessica Drew is pregnant in Across the Spider-Verse is because she was pregnant in the comics! Not in the vintage comics, it was a fairly recent issue. It was kind of a nod to one of her origin stories, getting her powers when her mom was pregnant with her. It made a lot of headlines because she was allegedly the first pregnant superhero and was shown heavily pregnant on the first cover. I thought it was cool they added that part in the movie!
Omg so cool very awesome.
I don't think anyone else mentiomed this, but are we sure Canon events are even real? because you should trust what we see instead of what we hear, we're told by Miguel what happens when you break canon, but we also see for ourselves that it doesn't always happen. Gwen's father quits the police and thus there is no police captain close to Gwen who could/can die, so doesn't that break canon, why isn't her universe in danger, then we visit Earth 4242, there is no spiderman, and you can't tell me the bite that creates spiderman is not a canon event, so why is earth 4242 still a thing, it should've been destroyed a year ago when Miles first gets bitten, and again with Pav's world it isn't necessarily the universe collapsing that's causing all the destruction, it's The Spot who does that. So I think there's enough evidence to put the existence of Canon Events into question
What I understand of the canon events, is not the similar origins, but the defining events that make them grow and learn to be a Spider-Person,for some would be their uncle's death, for some would be their child's death, and I think the problem that Miguel has with Miles, is that his universe started the problem with their multiverse, maybe the collider made all the other villains transport to other universes, and that's breaking canon in all of them, and maybe is just frustration that Miles may be able to fix it and save his father when Miguel couldn't do the same for his daughter
I love that ATSV is allowing for so many interpretations, it’s art at its core.
Though, with all theories all across TH-cam, it’s hard not to get hyped coz I feel like May be a double edged sword for the 3rd movie (whether it’s going to live up to the hype or not)
It's incredibly interesting that there was a lot of recapping of origins with the EXCEPTION of Jessica Drew and Miguel O'Hara. Hobie got an origin intro. Pavitr got an origin intro. Gwen got a reintroduction.
Pavitr also wasn't bit by a spider, but he's on Miles team
Ultimate Spider-Woman did shoot webs from her fingers, but your observation still holds up as she was never bitten by a spider either. She was a girl clone of Ultimate Peter Parker who also had all the memories of being Peter Parker.
Here's an Extra Layer to Miguel's Hypocrisy... The Entire Premise of WHY he's After Miles and trying to Capture and Trap him and force the "Cannon event" from happening, is WRONG... His Backstory of him Taking the place of his Variant so he can live with his Family left him with the Assumption that "Messing with a Cannon event" is what Causes the Incursions that destroyed that world... But thing is, Miguel Still had HIS Canon Event, and that World ALSO had it's canon event, He took that Miguel's place, but it doesn't change the events that Happened to both, so it shouldn't Cause any problems...
Now Consider this: Early in the Movie Miguel says "Don't even get me started on Spider-Man 199999 and his Doctor Strange", That's the MCU, so he's telling us that the events of "No Way Home" Are Canon to this Movie's Timeline... Which Means that the Events of "Mutiverse of Madness" are ALSO Canon... And in MoM, the 838 people (Including Reed Richards), who have a LOT of Experience with all this, Tell us Straight up that the Cause of Incursions is when Someone Who belongs to a different universe Stays around for too long in a Universe that isn't their own... Now Remind me, what was it that Miguel did That Caused that Incursion that Set his Mindset? Yep, that's right, he Stuck around in a Universe that wasn't his own for an EXTENDED Period of time... He Just Misunderstood the Cause, and then built his entire Spider Society around that False Premise... Then he Hunts Miles for that misunderstanding...
I'm Also fairly Certain that the Incursion in Mumbattan (Hope I Spelled that Right), wasn't because Miles Stopped a Canon event, it's Because it was someone Foreign to that Universe Did something that would have Major Repercussions on that World... The Reason why Otherworlders Cause Incursions is because their Mere Existence Causes the course of Fated events to Alter, no Matter how careful they are to change as little as possible, their mere presence Causes changes that slowly Unravel the Intended course of that reality... Now Imagine if it's not Tiny Subtle things that get changed, it's Major Events, like Spot Purposefully Blasting that World's Collider causing a Massive Disaster where none was meant to happen, and that Triggering the "Canon Event" of the Death of a Police Chief protecting a Child, Which itself Then gets Prevented by a separate Otherworlder... That's a Lot of Messing with a Dimension's Continuity in a short Amount of time... Canon Events aren't the only Way to Mess with a Reality, nor is breaking one necessarily a thing that will Automatically Break that Reality (Case and point, Many Spiders Never Got Bit, Many Aren't Peter Parker, that's a break in Canon events, yet they exist and their worlds didn't Implode), But they are Linchpin Moments that Will have a Much bigger effect on the Stability of that reality if Disrupted... If those Canon Events were to have been Prevented by the people Native to those worlds, No Incursion would have happened...
Oh and Miguel is a Moron, if he Really wanted to preserve the Canon Events, he simply would never have Told Gwen or Miles about them, He'd have Let Miles Go back home without knowing that his dad was supposed to die, if he didn't know about it, it would have Happened as it was supposed to... But Knowledge of Future events is what allows miles to change it.. If he hadn't known, he wouldn't have been able to even try to alter it... Same Goes for Gwen, They Inducted her into the Spider-Society Before that event took place in her world, Meaning that they just gave her a way to Prevent it by telling her about it... Also, Pavitr, why was he even made aware of the Multiverse before his Police Chief Event happened?!? Even if Miguel was RIGHT about the cause of the Universe Imploding Incursion events, He sure as hell went about trying to prevent them in the Worst Way possible. If Anything he All but Guaranteed that those Canon Events would be Broken, or attempted to be be Broken by Literally everyone who didn't already have it happen to them. Because after All, no Spider-Person would EVER Choose to allow their "Captain Stacy" to Die if they had the power to try and stop it... (Except Miguel I Guess, but he's a Psycho, as I just explained... And Gwen in Mumbattan because she Trusts Miguel and Jess way too Much.)
if that's true then the spider-society universe should be destroyed by all the spidermen working there
Pavitr didn't get bitten by a spider either, he was gifted spider powers by a Yogi. Miguel, on the other hand, if we talk about the source, does have a spider DNA in him, only instead of a bite he got it through a machine incident in Alchemax while in the terrible experiment of fusing human and spider DNA. He did get a lot of spider DNA, only it was a tarantula or a jumping spider kind rather than a common web-making spider. Those have fangs and everything and are quite feral.
I saw a post on tumblr that basically said since the movie is a call out of people who don't think Miles is worthy. You could read Miguel and Jessica as older POC not liking how the younger generation of POC gets to be a curtain thing while they can't or choose not to.
And since the three didn't get the traditional origins it adds to the hypocrisy
That’s a really confusing and from what I understand, a very weird statement. Could you explain this because I don’t see any evidence for this? I’m curious how you got to this conclusion (or how the post you were inspired from got to it).
I think another way of looking at it is that as the older generation they had to suffer a lot to be allowed to be who the are and get where they are in life whereas the younger POC/LGBT spider people like Gwen, Miles and Pavitr don't have that same pushback from society. They're actually able to "come out" to their parents about being spiderman whereas the older spidermen don't even have parents in their story. That's why Miguel wears his trauma as a badge of honour and uses it to gatekeep the Spiderman identity from people like Miles and Gwen.
It's not hypocrisy so much that it's the fact that Miguel, Jessica and Ben had to suffer a lot to be accepted as Spider people so they think it's unfair that Miles and Gwen are getting more easily accepted both on an in-universe level by their parents but also on a meta level by fans.
Also if you're triggered that I brought up the LGBT community, I just mean it in a subtextual way. If we're just doing textual analysis then it's a POC allegory. If we do a subtextual analysis then the LGBT reading has a lot of legitimacy. If you're confused then I guess the easiest way to explain it would be that, Miles isn't literally LGBT but the scene of him admitting to his mom that he's spiderman is heavily modelled after the experience of a queer person coming out of the closet. It just means that the creators took something from real life and used it to add depth to a fictional interaction.
I really don't think that applies to Miguel though. He was the first hispanic Spider-Man and really the first one written to be Peter's successor in the future. It'd be a shame to throw him under the bus as he's just as much a Spider-Man as Miles.
@@joshred1571 Basically the person was saying that because Miguel and Jessica are POC and Miles is POC, the whole movie is an allegory for the older generation of minorities being angry and jealous that the younger generation get to be free and break from the status quo.
Sorry, I’m half-asleep so the original comment is a bit confusing 😅
@@ummmmmmmmmmmnmmmm That’s what I was saying. Sorry I’m not good at explaining
Jessica drew can also make you pants pissingly scared of her.
Something else to note about Miguel in terms of this movie are two other things he is also lacking in addition to the traditional spider origin (at least in this movie).
1. Canonically he has organic web spinnerets, but in the movie he has laser webs (feeling like a definite choice was made to replace or at least obscure a set of his powers).
2. I've only seen it once so far, but I can't remember if he ever has a spider sense tingling "you're like me" moment with anyone... And I'm not entirely sure he even displayed the spider sense at all (going to try and watch again this weekend).
In terms of him being an Inheritor... I think that's actually possible... But going down one of two separate routes from the normal comic version.
1. He's a comic style inheritor, but one who has had a change of heart, and who has assumed the identity of Miguel after killing him. His heavy focus on canon is less about protecting the stability of the multiverse, and more about keeping the pattern so as to hide new universes from other inheritors, and his injections are now retconned as derived life essence from each anomaly token sent back through the Go Home machine (so you know... He doesn't starve).
2. Leaning into your theory on non-standard origins, and adding in that Miguel was specifically trying to recreate Peter Parker's powers before his origin story... Inheritor could be flipped around to actually reflect the definition of the word. Miguel sees himself as the inheritor of the spider legacy (or was doing what he could to inherit it with the gene tech). And by using that idea/definition, then gou could possibly roll the other two non-standard spiders in too.
2.
I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure Miguel doesn’t have spider sense because all of his other attributes are extremely enhanced. This leaves him prone to overstimulation but it also means that he can generally tell if an attack is coming without the spider sense.
Miguel doesn't have spidersense
I also think there's a distinct difference between the way Miguel looks on the computer screen and the Miguel we see today. They don't look that alike. I'm going with him being an inheritor.
I noticed that when Miguel was talking to Gwen and Vulture blasted him from behind that he likely didn't have Spidersense.
Miguel doesn't have spider-sense. Not every Spider-Person has Spider-Sense. Peni Parker and Jessica Drew do not possess Spider-Sense.
I want a solo Spider-Man 2099 animated movie or show
I get the feeling that Miguel is mistaken about what causes the universes to collapse. Maybe it's not connected to canon events in the way he thinks
I didn’t catch that! Interesting point that you bring up with Miguel’s team!
Would’ve been cool if they leaned into this more.
Maybe these 3 could’ve also been anomalies? And help Miles(an anomaly)?
Solid video Nando!
I've definitely been doing some 'hmming' on the whole Canon Event dilemma and it's relation and differences to how the Spider-man brand has actually worked. On the one hand the Spider Society ARE our antagonists in a story about Miles staying true to himself, so perhaps that's the intent.
On the other hand from a certain angle it makes the meta message feel watered down since the complaints of audiences who have a very narrow view of Spider-man clearly aren't having a real impact, so it feels a bit like an easy target. This is at a time where there IS a lot of other controversy around the handling of the Spider-man titles, like Kamala Khan's death coming out the same week. Comparatively the subtext around Miles's rejection specifically has more weight since that racism was certainly very real, and there were the infamous memos on who Spider-man could be on the adaptation side.
However we'll probably just have to wait till Beyond to get the full thesis.
Super interesting, wonder if this somehow changes Miguel and his inner circles canon events. Possibly they have different events.
What I want to see in the next movie:
Miguel, furious, beaten into submission by Miles and his Spider-Team, gathering his society to take them down, and he uses the one word that resonates with every Parker in the multiverse: Menace. He rants, raves, calls Miles a menace that needs to be destroyed, and the veil just drops completely. They're not the heroes anymore. They're the angry old man behind the desk, trying to destroy something because he doesn't understand it and that makes him feel weak and powerless.
And then they all turn their backs on him.
Why is Miles the only non-Peter variant outside the core circle? Out of every multiverse, not one person thought to include a canon Miles?
I think literally my only issue with across the spider-verse is that there were no duplicate Spider-Men. You mean to tell me that in all the wide multiverse there wasn't another Scarlet spider or Miguel O'Hara? It's not really a big deal and it really didn't even hit me right away. It's sort of came to me as the days went on after initially seeing it. I don't know, maybe there's a comic explanation that I'm not familiar with as to why there are no duplicates? Maybe the filmmakers just wanted to avoid confusion? But I think it would have been funny to have two or three completely identical Spider-Men running around. It would have made for a funny scene or two.
AGREED, it would have been really funny to see two or three popsicle spidermen
i suppose maybe miguel and his team didn’t want to be redundant? like if there’s two that are identical and bring the same things to the table, miguel could decide he only needs one
Yeah I feel like as we continue to see multiverses in fiction we will continue to see this trend of many individual variants that are unique to the other characters in the film. In theory there are infinite versions of the exact same character with unnoticeable discrepancies. But as far as a narrative goes, seeing a whole bunch of clones is a lot less interesting than seeing a whole bunch of unique characters. I can see why writers wouldn't even try to address how vast infinity is when it comes to other universes as it could be difficult without bogging down the story and it is probably easier to just ignore them.
Something a friend told me that may give you hope is that the reason across took so long was because of Hobie. In order to get his effect right, they made an algorithm to help them or do it for them, which they had to develop and that took a lot of time. But now they've got that algorithm beyond should have less production time than across
I dont have twitter so i couldnt tweet you, but i just started listening to Mostly Nitpicking this weekend and ive binged through soooo many episodes. Love it. I nit pick movies to my brother and he hates it so I was listening to each episode and basically yelling " yes! thank you! Why has no one pointed this out!"
if not being a peter parker gives you some leeway about changing what your canon events are , maybe miguel just wants to force everyone to suffer like he did. maybe he dislikes miles so much not because of anything he did but because if miguel can’t be happy no one can.
i do think if this is the case that miguel will have a change of heart even if it takes a lot
you gave more evidence to my after-thought post movie that miguel's trauma induced view point is incorrect.
My theory is that they’re spider adjacent in the sense of they’re NOT part of the canon, they’re outside of what Spider-Man is. There’s definitely larger forces here at play, like with Kang controlling the TVA, but I’m thinking that these “Spider-Men” were close enough to being a Spider person but just outside of the canon to becoming a true spider person and so whatever higher force is ordaining the multiverse to be structured this way chose these not spider people to rule the spiderverse. Idk meta multiverse stuff is very hard to tackle
this my head canon now; i will be boasting this take as my own
@@sneezmireniggity1145 I’m glad someone thinks it’s possible
I wasn't really aware of the other two's backstories myself, but I was aware of Miguel O'hara's, and I noticed that Miguel never really went through any of the canon events in his that he's so quick to point out. At the very least in my opinion, Miguel is an outsider to the Canon and thus doesn't really have any skin in the game, and at the most, he's lying.
Yeah, I think Miguel's hypocrisy is a really obvious thing.
I mean, If you use the information that WE know from the last movie and this one, it's pretty obvious he's wrong about the apocalliptic scenario that comes after a breatch of cannon. He's emotionally damaged and is using the web of life and destiny as a way to make sense of his tragedy by colting it with a venear of algorithm-based logic. What you brought up in the video is just another way that he's wrong. I mean, even Miles calls him out on that during the train chase sequence, but he just sides steps the question and tries to ask the same question to Miles. So not only he's Coping hard with his own tragedy, he is also PROJECTING IT ON MILES!
Maybe the technology miguel had invented to stabalise the spider people while they're in other universes wasn't perfected yet and that lead to the destabalisation of the universe he was hiding away in?
And maybe in an act of denial he just refuses to accept that he was the sole cause for that universes collapse?
When I saw the movie I was really expecting them to address that with Miguel, he's the leader of the team and constantly talks about the sacrifice that it takes to be spiderman and how Miles wasn't meant to be spiderman and yet, he's the one who gave himself his powers, in a sense, he's just like miles, an anomaly, they might address this in beyond the spiderverse though, and if they do I feel like that's what will make Miguel stop antagonizing miles and finally join him to stop the spot
Also the Jessica drew stuff I wasn't familiar with and with Ben Riley I just forgor that as a clone, he inherently had spider powers
Beyond the spiderverse, the next movie, is scheduled for release summer 2024. My theory is they worked on both movies simultaneously so they could release them with less wait between them :)
i feel like the canon events do exist but spidersociety is putting on too strict limits cause theres such an overwhelming majority with the exact same event. but i think if they generalize the events more it would work. for example: spider related shennagins to get powers, family/friends trauma, evil scientist maybe etc etc
That's what I think as well, there's some leeway. Spider people need things to play out a certain way to complete their origin arc.
But they don't need it to happen exactly like each other.
Beyond the spiderverse cones out in 10 months! I'm so excited!
What's weird to me to is that Uncle Aaron dying somehow wasn't considered a canon event.
Bro forgot about the Ultimate Comics version of Jessica Drew who was a clone of Spider man, in that version she has organic webs she could shoot out of her fingers.
I LOVED THE MOVIE
But the fact that Spectacular was on Miguel's side made me unreasonablely angry
Omg i thought I was the only one
He won't be in the next film.
@@LabiLabi777 dammit
@@LabiLabi777 When was that stated?
it was just a cameo bruh chill, Peter B Parker shouldnt have been on his side either if we're going by logic
Oh shit so they're anomalies like Miles... Coincidence? Na. Consistency in the canon is definitely a lie.
its just too coincidental that the trio that is going after miles, and "leads" the society, just so happen to not be traditional spidermen in any way.
To the point about the inheritors, and idk if it's related or just coincidence, but Gwen does describe Miguel as vampire-like early in the film
It should be noted, while we try and draw conclusions from the canon of the comics, the wikis have created pages for the Spider-verse stuff. They specifically made Earth-1610B and Earth-928B to coincide with the movies' Miles Morales and Miguel O'hara (respectively). So it's possible they will re-make their own versions for Beyond the Spider-Verse. The lack of material on Earth-42 implies there wasn't really a comic-canon-adjacent version of it, or maybe it's a new number. But I think it is newly-made, probably because those of us who are Douglas Adams fans knows the number 42 is "The answer to life, the universe, and everything".
The team has been quite adapt at not only subverting expectations, but also cleverly fore-telling events using colors and text. Peter B and Miles first meeting Miles has a green/purple color, which now seems to suggest the Earth-42 origin. Also the number 42 was all over the place in Into The Spider-verse. Those who were quick to notice when Miles scanned his retina in the "Go-Home Machine" it flashed "Earth-42" for half a second. And even then the team had subtle color tones during Miles's race home to suggest he may not be in the same dimension. Even Miles's room in Earth-42 looked very different. There were hallmark items like the drawing table and the divider by the window with music, but his usual comic nerd stuff was missing from the shelves. Also his mom mentions "comics-con", and from Into The Spider-verse Miles didn't know what comic-con was, implying Earth-1610B didn't have a comic-con.
Also gonna throw this out there since on one seems to mention it. Everyone seems to assume Drew's "very hot" husband is Miguel, but is he really? All of their interactions for very indifferent and professional, there wasn't any real chemistry between them. She was similar to Ben Riley in of being a lieutenant to Miguel, but everyone just seems to assume it's Miguel. There's definitely other questions to be asked (was pulling through the collider spider-42 intentional? Disrupting Mumbattan's canon event implies The Spot and collider had to be involved, why?) but I think everyone should keep in mind the team subverts expectations in a number of ways, and there's more to both movies than it seems before the third releases next year.
The facial hair only continues to look better and better
Muuuuussttaaaacheeeeeee
The Nando Scruff
Heck yeah
I did pick up on this when I watched the film! I think Miguel is projecting his issues onto Miles about being an anomaly because he knows that he himself is not a true Spider-Man, I think this will come up in the sequel
or literally he watched miles already destroy pavitr’s universe by breaking canon. so why would he want to watch him do it again?
@@justintrujillo8483 He didn't mean to. Why would saving Pavitr's Girlfriend's dad be a bad thing?
@@justintrujillo8483 miles didn't do that. that was the spot.
@@ShainaCilimberg it’s not inherently a bad thing to do but if you inadvertently kill everyone in the universe doing it then it becomes bad. they didn’t immediately blame him after he did it but they explained to him what he accidentally did and when he tried to do it again, it became bad
@@justintrujillo8483He didn't destroy he's universe the Spot did bruh.
very strange, that they're all red
Now that you mention the Inheritors... didn't Gwen call Miguel a vampire?
bcs he kinda acts like one, with the teeth and everything, hes not litteraly a vampire espicaillay since gwen calls him a ninja in the same sentence and miguel is no ninja.
Gwen calls him a vampire cuz Miguel has fangs... which he always have since the comics.
Miles says "a vampire good guy, i'd pay money to watch that" which sounds more like morbius than anything lol
thanks for the explanation on Miguel, I thought his bite was because he was an inheritor. I liked them but I understand that you may not like them.
One version of Jessica Drew worked for the Inheritors (specifically Morlun) and Miguel in the movie is explicitly stated to have "vampire-like" powers. So maybe let's not cross out that theory yet. ;)
It all feels purposeful to me. There’s no wasted lines in this film, and a lot of attention is drawn to how different Miguel is. There’s something we don’t know yet that will probably be revealed in the next movie
I actually looked it up, while it seems the first actual comic Spider-Woman was white, in 1974, 4 years prior to the Spider-Woman release in 78, Marvel and the Electric Company had a character named Valerie the librarian, and apparently was the first ever 'spider-woman.' Also in the comics they show her shooting webs from her fingers.
i forgot about valerie! i was thinking they just tacked on ultimate!jessica drew's finger webs onto atvs!jessica's powerset but it looks like they just mashed together valerie and jessica drew from the comics to make a new variant. hell, valerie could have just been atsv!jessica drew undercover in her backstory for all we know.
Pavitr Prabhakar did not get bit either
honestly i think you may be over thinking this. the reason why theres not any other typical spidermen in charge is most likely because they simply felt it would be too confusing to have another peter parker in a leading role since we already have one. spider noir is probably the closest we'll get to a second leading peter parker just because hes so different visually from regular spiderman, and even then hes only really there as a supporting character
I don’t think it’d be that confusing, look at Spider-Man nwh
@@fletchersamaNo way home only had 3 peter Parkers that the audience already knows of. And the spiderverse films already have tons of characters so having another peter parker to remember is too much.
Comment makes no sense. The writers don't put anything in Miles' films. If it's in the film, it's there for a reason
@@IronheartvsMiles sometimes stories are influenced by factors outside of just the realm of the fiction. i dabble in creative writing, even taking some classes on it, and making a story easily understood by your audience is a crucial aspect of that. they might very well reveal some in world reason behind it, but id bet money the leading factor at play here was simply the writers being considerate of the audience. stories are created by people to show to other people and to properly analyze them you need to be aware of that fact
It's not a difficult stretch of interpretation the villain's most trusted lieutenants are people who remind him of himself.
Miguel idolized the strength of Peter Parker without understanding who he was as a person and Jessica Drew actively distanced herself from Peter. Likewise, the antagonists dismiss Miles where every Peter Variant Miles has met has been friends with him and mentored him.
Hard to write about the themes of the story if you don't address that the villains fundamentally don't understand the philosophy of the person that they are emulating.
Another thing I don't see anyone bring up is the fact that the interdimensional travel watch has the capability of time travel as well. Otherwise, how would Miguel even be there? Noir Spider, Spider-Man 1960s, Young Spectacular Spider-Man, etc.
Someone else noted that almost every spider person is either a variation of Peter Parker or someone from his stories (Ben, Gwen, etc.). Miles and Miguel aren't. (Also Jessica Drew's Spiderwoman). Interesting that the top two of the organization, as well as the person they're most afraid of, are all the most distant from Peter Parker's story.
Miles is connected to the Prowler, though, who's an established Spider-Man villain.
Good video. This aspect about Miguel being so far from the canonic Spiderman is so intrinsic to the movie that Miles even asks Miguel: "Are you even a Spiderman?" during the train to the Moon scene.
Calling Ben a joke character is very disrespectful, considering the comics went out of their way to establish he is his own character, with his own personality, history, and, yes, even abilities. Ben for example is more savy in engineering then Peter, hence why he upgraded the iconic webshooters (a lot of gimmicks which get used nowadays by Peter in the comics or the Sony Videogame actually were made by Ben).
and, again, this shows if people only skim through the Wikipedia articles or only have seen him in this movie (which in general has a different tone then most main line Spider-Man features), because Ben was ALWAYS popular. Even during the clone saga heydays. People can say whatever they want about the clone-sagas overall quality, but both Ben and Kaine were actually beloved by readers, and I know for a fact that, when Ben got written out during the time Marvel scrambled to escape bankruptcy at the end of the 90ies, that sales of the Spider-Man titles actually went down significantly till the Raimi movie created a new generation of fans, who more so came in because of the movie (and less so because of the quality of the comics at the time with a few exceptions like Spider-Girl Mayday.
The bigger issue is just that most modern writers at Marvel are just people trying to make their personal headcanons real instead of writing good stories to advance the character/the series, combined with an editorial that doesn't understand that people like progression in stories instead of that abyssmal limbo we are in right now, even if this means we have to move on to a new character wearing the mask of our beloved hero and continuing thier legacy.
Yeah they treated him pretty bad in the movie.
@@bobojo6447I’m hoping they’ve saved him for a major role in the last film
u cant blame the game for the impact shooters tho cause itd be kinda weird to have Ben already established in the universe before even Green Goblin and Jackal
@@michaellabonte6390 I didn't blame the game, just pointing out that these new abilities of the webshooters were not done by Pete, but by Ben.
Blaming the game would be if I also point out that the game also tried to take away Bens honestly way better Spider-Man suit and give to Peter - By only making the spider on the chest white instead of black.
and no, Marvel tried multiple times to transfer Bens costume to Peter one way or the other, same why Warner does with Barry Allen and Wally west because fanboys are at the helm, and not good writers/caretakers.
@@EnerKaizer meh its a diff continuity. Hel the Ulimate Spider-Man comics are some of the best spider-man comics and that universe has Jessica instead. End of the day he was meant to be revealed as the real parker so all of his plot his still valid for Peter. esp since the elements u bring up are cool things and I dont think we should have to wait for Ben (a literal copy of the guyy who is making it ) to invent them himself.
As for the suit I agree but Idc. I would LOVE if they gave Peter a more Ben style dsign cause ur right its just better! Tho personally i prefer when the spider is drawn to blend into the blue. I just love Big spider designs on Spider-Man
But tb Ben is literally a copy so why is it a big deal his tech ideas were stolen? everything he is was created by some od pervert to copy Peter. His powers? Peter. His INITIAL spider tech? Peter. The belt? A bulky version of peters. They are literally the same character in terms of personality up to a fork in their paths of the clonage. They remember the same childhood. I think their feats should be synonymous and serve the plot they are dealing with at the time. So because Ben is a clone ofc Peter will get the credit. But when they were writing that orignally, they planned on Ben BEING the OG PETER SO WHATEVER
So much like how I've seen people call across the spidervers 'spiderverse 2' just cause its easier, I'm gonna go with spider gwen instead of ghostspider. Also just like that name better.
Also Miguel blames miles as the first anomaly but his break of cannon was the first to have consequences in that world. Also Jess tells Gwen not to get attached but she has a loving husband and is LITERALLY PREGNANT!
Jessica is married to someone in her own Universe. Miles and Gwen are from two different universes.
what are you waffling on about
Jessica Drew being married and pregnant has nothing to do with Gwen wanting to see an old friend aka Miles.
The inheriters was a great story
I feel like they can do the inheritors right
The the only thing that will validate the spidey verse or atleast mado web
This movie also fixed Vulture in Morbius and no one is talking about it
how
@@asdfoifhvjbkaos in my eyes we were shown a Vulture from and Alt universe right at the beginning of the movie and explained how other villians have been misplaced and also shown a live action Prowler and Venomverse.
They didn't outright show vture or Morbius but I think it's a way for them to get away with Vulture showing up in the MCU again like it never happened
Doesn't make that movie suck any less or make the post-credits fanservice any less forced.
@@jlev1028 I agree 100 percent (I couldn't get 10 minutes into the movie) I'm moreso excited that Micheal Keaton can return to MCU like it never happened
On the train Miles says to Miguel, "Are those claws? Are you sure you're even Spider-man?" That's when Miguel gets really upset and tells Miles that he is the original anomaly. So there is definitely a nod to it there. I think we might find out more about their origins in the next one. At least Miguel's.
Extremely interesting. I think 100% that in BTSV we are going to find out that the whole “canon” deal is a lie from Miguel. I mean we can straight up see that Spot’s powers are responsible for SM India’s world collapsing and not the canon being disrupted.
It was Tony Stark who broke the canon and destroyed universes (technically) when they travelled back tin time to steal the Infinity Stones.
But still, 2099 cannot not fix canons when it's already broken in many universes especially when Kang exists to do that.
@@aakashsahani2991 I think you’re thinking too much about it. I doubt that Sony Animation was keeping the MCU timeline in mind when they wrote the story.
Go back and rewatch Miles meeting Spider-man for the first time in the reactor. The colors change from Purple/Green (Prowler) to Red/Blue (Spiderman), showing his fate changed in those moments. This wasn't picked up at all only until after Spiderverse 2 released.
I feel like there's a lot of hidden elements that are super preplanned to the trilogy, and I guarantee this will be a huge payoff in Beyond. Something is afoot.
True I caught that in the first film as well.
And if the reactor changes Miles' fate then that means reactors both fuck with cannon events and meld and destroy reality.
Spot is actually a walking talking reactor.
Peter Parker knew his time was up in that scene I think🤔
Cus his actions changed from just stopping kingpin to motivating Miles.
nando is a cool dude
His name isn’t Nando
@@Max_The_Flower “Hi, I’m Nando, I V Movies” is an intro he uses on his main channel fairly often. Yeah it’s not his real name but it’s clearly the name he wants to be referred as online
I like how Ben Reilly is basically a metacommentary on how edgy 90s so he acks like an antsy he is.
I saw the outlier in Miguel and Jessica as Miguel has biological powers rather than radiation powers. He has his talons to cling to walls unlike most other Spider-People who can just stick to walls, he has organic webbing rather than web shooters which I found really odd in the movie he has these energy web shooters maybe he’s trying to cover it up or it’s just his new suit. He doesn’t have a Spider-Sense instead he just enhanced vision (which is why he is usually in the dark because he’s sensitive to sunlight) and enhanced hearing instead of a sixth sense. He also had fangs and a venomous bite so like an actual spider he bites his foes to paralyze them. He also fights completely different to Spider-Man with a more wild style since he uses his talons, of course he’s still acrobatic but tears through his villains rather than punching. He also can’t retract his fangs or talons so he is very much a spider like man rather than your traditional Spider-Man.
Jessica Drew though her origins are all over the place since she was mainly made to get the trademark for Spider-Women. Again more biological powers and a different power set than Spider-Man with the ability to fly abit, electric blast from her arms, some versions she shoots webbing from her finger tips. Very much an outlier amongst the Spider-People.
Then Ben is a clone, so he is lacking in those base canon events that Peter had but also is a really tragic character with a a lot of bad stuff happening to him so I do agree with others in the comments that he is like the perfect Spider-Man in Miguel’s eyes other than Lego Spider-Man the best agent of them all who is also an outlier since he is all bricks and shoots out plastic webs from out of nowhere