Divers React to diver who stabbed himself in the heart to avoid drowning
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ม.ค. 2022
- Is there a better way to kick off 2022 than yet another amazing story by @MrBallen? I DON'T THINK SO!
This one has the possibility to be a HUGE SOURCE for debate and as you can see in this video, we don't necessarily see eye to eye on this one, although we both definitely agree that we would LOVE to dive this cave!
Original Video: • Top 3 places you CAN'T...
Croatian Medical Journal Official Case Report: neuron.mefst.hr/docs/CMJ/issue...
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Why is it so hard to believe that a confused inexperienced diver who's all alone in a pitch black air pocket with no air left would rather end things on his own terms rather than try the impossible by navigating himself up and out in one breath in an unfamiliar cave, from his point of view it was the end which was a reasonable conclusion in my opinion
Big fan of the channel and I like that woody is always respectful but at times gus seems so uncensored and too comfortable with people dying and almost makes a joke of it at times
agreed
your opinion is just that
So he would rather end things on his own terms so your saying he was forced in to the cave to drowned but said no i hate water where's my knife
As a experienced ex military diver l must admit it's something l would not of thought of but respect his decision.
Gus is making a classic mistake and assuming that the guy would think like him. Never assume that that person would react like you.
Agreed. The guy was a novice diver in a place he shouldn’t have been, surrounded by darkness and silt. He couldn’t find his way out and ran out of air. I highly doubt that a novice diver in a highly panicked and disoriented state of mind is going to have the same exact thought process as someone with years more worth of training and experience under their belt like Gus. And personally as someone who is not a diver, I’m not necessarily saying that I would take my own life in this situation, because I’ve never been a situation like this and have no idea what I’d do in the moment. But despite that “never give up” rule, if I’m in a position like this where I feel that death is inevitable, I’d imagine that a stab to the heart would kill me a lot quicker than running out of oxygen/breathing in water 🤷♀️
The CMJ (Croatian Medical Journal) has the full report and there is a picture of the guy's body and the wound that contributed to his death. Alot of things were omitted from the telling of this story. When the victim was reported missing, 2 police divers arrived and went into the cave to search. Only 1 officer exited the cave. He drowned and it's believed that in the darkness he got lost and disoriented just as the victim did. Also the knife used to puncture the victim's chest belonged to him. The wound itself on the surface was 3x1 cm and the depth was 11 cm. That was consistent with the size of the knife which was stated to had a sharp pointed tip, it was nowhere near as large as the one Gus kept showing. In order to removed the victim's body from the cave the knife was removed from his chest, and later retrieved. Another noteworthy fact is the victim had run out of air, there was none in his cylinder. Its believed he was lost approximately 40 minutes and realized he wasn't going to make it without air and stabbed himself. His death was ruled a suicide by drowning along with a puncture in his left pect area that also punctured a lung. Its stated he had basic diving skills and could barely be considered a novice. He was found to have alcohol in his blood or as well and with the carbon dioxide while running out of air would've of contributed to his mental clarity and possibly induced disorientation. Its a very interesting read which substantiates Mr. Ballen's narrative instead of Gus's doubts. I've seen as few reports of this case and though they aren't all identical, they parallel each other and seem believably accurate.
@@zoyalis1487 Thank you for the detailed response. I feel terrible for the man. The rhought of being so afraid the you feel that stabbing yourself is a good answer is so disheartening
@@zoyalis1487 thank you so very much for the greatly detailed info you gave...
Exactly! That's what I was saying. No it doesn't make sense for the guy to of killed himself to me. But people kill themselves ALL THE TIME. Over drastically dumber shit. Losing a girlfriend/boyfriend or anything. To avoid a death like drowning is a much more "Reasonable" situation then ending it over a girl/boy.
Oddly enough, the story is true. The story leaves out a few details, but the full report makes it more clear that the most likely explanation is that he really did stab himself. The body was found with the knife still in his chest, and they had to remove him to get him out of the cave. The knife wound in his chest also perfectly matched the edge, width, and depth of his knife. His friends also mention that they always found it ironic that he was a diver because it was well known that he had a phobia of drowning, and often said he'd take any other death over drowning. Also, his blood alcohol showed he was intoxicated at the time, which would definitely make that fatal decision easier.
Also, the detail of him popping up into the air pocket is unknown. His dive computer showed he was at the same depth as the air pocket, but there were multiple parts of the ceiling that were at that same depth, so it's just speculation.
Really the only other possibility is that one of his friends stabbed him. That's what the police originally suspected, and the friends were actually arrested. However, after reviewing the 3 dive computers, that was shown to be impossible.
Gus is making the mistake of thinking "I would never do this, therefore it would never happen". His friends all said he was deathly afraid of drowning.
I dont think that it was murder either. There are way easier ways to kill a diver under water that would make it look like an accident. For example, pull their mask off and yank their regulator. It would come out looking like he panicked and shed gear. I remember either reading or watching a show that went into detail about this case. and you are correct. The police accused the other divers and did arrest them. But after reviewing the dive computers it showed that the other divers data did not match up to the victims at all.
@@scottcol23 No 🤔 bro the best way would it to use a knife also they could send him in the wrong direction what they probably did. We don't know the truth but those guys look very sus
For a person who's scared of drowning to go into unknown places under water would be the first one to say hell no would i go into some unfamiliar hole while in the back of my mind your terrified of drowning... my mother will not go near water because she's truly scared of drowning ok.
This was lovely. Thank you for the details
Oh the friends who are murder suspects said something about the dead man that makes it more likely he just stabbed himself? Well that's it guys, case closed. Let's pack it up.
Gus' complete disbelief of this story and dramatically pulling out that knife about killed me🤣🤣🤣
Dear friends.
I watch your videos and I admire you for your work. I am a former trained technical and cave diver and I live in Croatia. At the same time, I work for the state and I know more details about this case. First of all, the case is absolutely true and nothing is untrue.
First of all, diving is forbidden in this cave and there is no line for divers in it, so @MrBallen said that it is necessary to get a feel. All the photos shown in his video are not from a cave location in Croatia.
"Special Diver" is a diver of special police.
At the bottom of the underwater cave, at a depth of 54.1 meters, diver Miroslav Kukliš was found dead. A knife stabbed in his chest pointed to murder, and an autopsy confirmed that the death was caused by drowning and stabbing. Two suspects were arrested. These are his friends and colleagues Daniel Frolec and Ivo Koznar, but the investigation against them was suspended because the details of the forensic analysis revealed the unexpected - the diver probably killed himself after being trapped in a cave and left without oxygen. So he wanted to prevent the agony of suffocation at the bottom of the sea.
It was the first known case of suicide of an underwater diver.
It happened on September 11, 2002. Split police received a call from a group of Czech divers who reported that their driver, 31-year-old Kukliš, had not returned three hours after diving below the surface, towards the Poganica underwater cave in the southern part of the island of Solta. Before calling the police, Frolec and Koznar searched for him underwater. When they found parts of his diving equipment, it was clear to them that he had run out of air and drowned, probably because he could not find a way out of the cave.
On the morning of September 11, two Split special police divers set off in search of the body. One of them never came back. He got lost in a cave and ran out of oxygen while the other barely pulled out a living head as he found a way out at the last minute. The next day both bodies were pulled out of the cave.
In the Croatian language, the meaning of the cave is "evil and dangerous".
At the end of August 2015, two more divers lost their lives in the same cave. These are the Supetar notary Ervin Kuzmanić and his German friend Oliver E. Gansen.
The question is why is the Poganica cave so dangerous for people? The reason is probably the sludge it is covered with, which reduces visibility even when a strong lamp is used. The water temperature varies from 24 degrees on the surface to 14 degrees Celsius at the bottom of the cave. Its greatest depth is 57 meters.
Everything is true in this video, strange or not, Miroslav really judged for himself and no one else was with him during the dive. I can’t reveal more details to you because of the nature of my work, but it’s all really true.
Keep up the good work :)
Hey Gus, ya still wanna play with rattlesnakes??? Lol!
I call 100% bullshit on him stabbing him self in the chest. No way he could have done that if he was that close to running out of air that he decided to off himself that way. 1- he wouldn’t have had the strength to penetrate all the levels needed to even make it to the heart, it would take a ton of force to do that and no way you could while in water from an arm lengths amount of force. You couldn’t even do that on land while completely healthy and full of air, unless maybe you had one of the sharpest knives in the world. 2- I call BS on anything you just said bc all you did was copy and paste an article you read from the internet and it happened decades ago and it wasn’t considered a murder so there would be nothing keeping you from “releasing more details”. Gtfoh
Look up if it’s possible to stab yourself in the heart. You have an actual diver from Croatia giving you all the details saying it’s 100% true. If you have a sharp knife and you go between the tips I think it’s totally possible to stab your self. And it’s not hard to know where your heart is. I would be more shocked if if he missed. The heart is big. It’s the Center of your chest with most of it off to the left. I think it’s totally possible. Not everyone thinks the same way.
@@davidbiagi2932 which article?
@@davidbiagi2932 He probably didn't die of the knife wound. I also find it hard to believe he could penetrate his own chest to the depth of his heart, however, maybe he tried, and in fact stabbed himself with the knife then drowned anyway, with a stab wound.
If I'm not mistaken, the investigation included checking the dive computers of all of the divers involved. They came up with an approximate time of death and concluded that he was alone in that part of the cave at that particular depth. The police, like Gus, felt sure he didn't stab himself and so approached it all with the idea that he'd been murdered, but only found evidence to contradict that theory. Tbh I don't think the notion that he chose the sword over drowning is that crazy 🤷
The police investigated the incident as a possible homocide because that's what they're supposed to do in cases of suspicious death, not because they "felt sure he didn't stab himself".
Is stabbing oneself in the chest not suspicious as hell?? In previous videos I've seen that covered this incident the investigators' knee jerk reactions were that it was a homicide. I can't say for certain how they felt because I wasn't there and don't know them personally, but do you? Are you merely saying how the police protocol should be? Or are you actually speaking for them? Police aren't infallible and certainly aren't robots who lack the ability to draw conclusions without supporting facts and why are you nit picking, anyway? It's not like that minute distinction has any bearing on the overall point of my comment.
@@tommyotero7465 With respect, it is an impiortant distinction. Your comment "felt sure he didn't stab himself" implies that there was an immediate bias on the part of the officers. Not a good thing when investigating any potential crime to start off with a bias.
@@sct913 fair enough, I agree that's the way it Should be.
it just makes no sense what gus is saying why would rescue divers go in there to rescue him then kill him? and if it wasnt them then who was it???
They left out the other obvious possibility -- Aware that he knew octopuses were aliens, one followed him into the cave. It then held him in place with it's tentacles, then used one to take his knife and stab him, so no one else could ever find out.
I think you're on to something. A lot of potential in Alien franchise to connect face huggers to a undiscovered partially sunken cave system on earth somewhere, or an ice planet (or moon like Europa where there's liquid water under 10-15 miles of ice), or a planet on some far off star system.
Face hugger jump scare to introduce the alien. Then a bit later a chest burster. Wherever they are, they are on a multi-day expedition to explore, so the chest burster has opportunity to grow, and then stalk them during further dives.
Or heck, a company wants to step-up a water refueling base on Europa so they land there and start building and checking out the moon. Expert miners are brought along to explore.
Just a quick question - if you were to dive under a continent made entirely of ice, would the ice contribute to water pressure?
Clearly an alien cephalopod would use mind control to make the diver stab himself. Maybe even hypnosis.
Yes, i was also surprised they left it out, it was obviously the most possible scenario 😂
This guy is so argumentative! You can't believe the guy would be so afraid he would choose to stab himself instead of drowning? Put yourself in his shoes...you're in a cold, dark,cave with no air, hunreds of feet under the ocean and probably no hope of being rescued, and you can't believe the guy would be so afraid he'd choose to end it himself? The guy in the pink toby has more since than the big guy. seriously he makes valid points. Big guy is totally argumentative and in total denial of reality. Lol. Great job rationalizing guy in the pink toby.
From a 2003 Medical journal article, titled "Scuba diver with a knife in his chest: homicide or suicide?" The following is from the abstract, "A scuba diver was found dead at the bottom of an undersea cave at 54.1 m water depth, with a knife protruding from his chest. Autopsy confirmed death due to both drowning and a penetrating knife wound. The incident was first considered a homicide and two suspects were arrested. Careful forensic analysis of the profile of the diver's last dive stored in the dive computer, dimensions of the undersea cave, as well as other forensic findings, showed that the case was a suicide, which the diver most probably committed while running out of air, in an attempt to avoid the agony of drowning. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first report on a suicide during diving."
I have to side with Woody on this one...
From the report :" The victim’s blood alcohol level was 0.114% (legally intoxicated). The increased blood alcohol must have contributed to the mental impairment of the victim already affected by nitrogen narcosis, which, at 35 m, was at least of a minor degree (5,6)." So impaired judgement led to diver stabbing himself as attempted suicide, but drowned before he bled out as Autopsy confirmed death due to both drowning and a penetrating knife wound. The actual report shows a photo of the victim with a stab wound.
OK but to be fair, if I were to kill someone id do it in an underwater cave too lmao
I believe woody to. People react differently in situations.
Me too!🐡
So the suspects who got arrested? What happened to them
I'm on Woody on this one.. The guy maybe panicked and faced certain doom his mind played some dark things in him which resulted in thinking that stabbing himself will be better than drowing
I agree and it looks like we're right based on a comment a guy/girl left who read the report and said that most of the story is true but some details were wrong. He did try to stab himself in the heart (not sure how many times) but apparently failed because they did rule the death being from drowning even with the stab wound/wounds to his chest. And the police did suspect murder initially and a thorough investigation was done including outside help to analyze all the diving equipment. The full comment is close to the top and seems legit.
From the report :" The victim’s blood alcohol level was 0.114% (legally intoxicated). The increased blood alcohol must have contributed to the mental impairment of the victim already affected by nitrogen narcosis, which, at 35 m, was at least of a minor degree (5,6)." So impaired judgement led to diver stabbing himself as attempted suicide, but drowned before he bled out as Autopsy confirmed death due to both drowning and a penetrating knife wound. The actual report shows a photo of the victim with a stab wound.
As both a scuba diver and med student I had to read the rapport, and there are a few key things I'd like to point out:
1. Before the assumed time of death at 35m he had dived to 50m, and right before death to 40m 30min later. Adding to that the fact he had emptied his air cylinder, and had a blood alcohol content of 0.11%, he would likely be suffering from at least mild nitrogen narcosis (I've seen it happen at 25m) and hypercarbia, which could impair his decision making process.
2. He wasn't actually stabbed in the heart, but rather in his left lung and the top of his aorta (the biggest artery leaving the top of the heart). And did also show signs of drowning.
3. The forensics matched the knife wound of the diver to his own diving knife.
4. Based on the tissue damage, and dive computers collected; the time between the stabbing, drowning, and subsequent death were so short, and at such a depth that the accompanying divers could not have been near the diver, let alone stab him, at time of death.
In my opinion this is the tragic case of an inexperienced and impaired diver who panicked and did not see any other way out, and chose to end his own life rather than suffer the painful death of drowning. Given the fact this man's last moments were those of extreme pain and fear I feel it is in very bad taste to make light of it, no matter how you belive you may have handled the situation.
drowning ain't painful though. it's only really panic educing but not actually that painful. you pass out before you suffer to much. trust me i have tried to end myself enough times. i think people are just describing the panic they feel and not an actual pain.
@@rampage3337 I've heard varying reports. Some say its mostly a panic, but I've heard testimonials from drowning victims who inhaled water, and described an unbearable burning sensation caused by the salt water. There is a difference between fresh and salt water, and between holding your breath and inhaling water. Though I have to admit I've never drowned, and would not mind defering to you on that part:)
@@rampage3337so drowning is actually incredibly painful. Have you ever gotten water up your nose? Times that by 100. On top of that your lungs and tubes that go into your lungs actually spams and try to slam shut. Then you start rapidly coughing, same as you would out of the water when water goes “down the wrong pipe”. It would be very painful. Also pressure would probably build in your chest from the water inside that would hurt a lot. Ask people with fluid around their chest how bad it hurt. It’s so bad ERs will drain it bed side for dying patients just to relieve the agony.
@Heavyisthecrown The pressure of the water in the lungs is the same as the outside water pressure so not the same as in a hospital
There's a thing where people who die early often have a phobia of what eventually kills them. I've seen numerous times the family of a deceased drowning victim say "they were always scared of water". It's uncanny!
So this was another one.
Gus asked Woody to try and stab himself in the heart, Woody said no and Gus said exactly because it's difficult. Woody didn't say no because it's difficult he said no because it's crazy 🤣.
Or because he wants to live
So I know this sounds as absolutely fantastical story but I'd highly recommend reading the actual report, since it's not from some nobodies but Department of Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine, Naval Medical Institute and Department of Forensic Medicine in Croatia. The reason, why this report has been done is that the Croatian police didn't believe this story either and investigated this as a murder. But it has been conclusively proven this is attempted suicide as insane as it may be.
There are couple of things Mr. Ballen got wrong.
Firstly, Kuklis went into the cave alone, the two other divers and any other diver present never entered the cave before police arrived. This has been proven by forensic analysis of the dive computers of all the involved divers. Second, whether he was trying to breath from the airpockets is something the report speculates about but doesn't say either way. It's one of the explanations of some depth data from the dive computer. Thirdly, police actually arrived several hours after the incident and based on combination of dive comp data and zero remaining air, he was dead long before they arrived. And fourthly, most importantly, the cause of death was drowning, not the stab wound.
I know it sounds crazy, but there's pretty compelling evidence he indeed attempted to kill himself like that. In the end if there's a dead body with a knife in his heart and no other explanation, one has to accept the evidence no matter how crazy it sounds.
Thank you for this. This is a good example of why @dive talk need to do a bit of research before they put out a video reacting to someone elses content.
So he drowned and this is a pointless conversation they are having.
@@moshunit96 It's kind of pointless in a sense whether it's possible to actually instantly kill yourself in such circumstances with single knife stab - because that didn't happen (albeit the stab would be probably fatal without proper medical attention, he just drowned faster).
But also, he did try to do exactly that so when people say that it's impossible / unlikely for people to even try, that's not true, because it actually did happen.
@@misarthim6538 so does the report say anything about the possibility of as he was drowning accidentally stabbing himself with the knife because he was freaking out and panicking? Did it make any comment on unintentional infliction? Is there an autopsy report attached?
@@FrostySumo Yes, there's a autopsy but the report is mostly factual in a sense that they say that the stab wound is consistent with self inflicted injury and there are no other marks or injuries on the body. I'd assume that stabbing yourself like that has to be pretty deliberate but god only knows.
Biggest response to most of what Gus said about "an experienced diver would..." about the line and stuff, Mr Ballen said at the very beginning that they were very inexperienced divers which means they probably weren't cave trained which we all know is the number one reason divers die. ☠🔪
there was a police diver that supposedly did the same thing tho
the number one reason divers die is experienced divers getting cocky & cutting corners/disregarding safety guidelines
@@Falcons8455 Police divers are probably also not cave trained to the level of hobbyists. People assume police training makes them better than the average non-professional, if you really took a look at how the sausage is made you'd be horrified at how minimal their training is in a lot of areas of their work.
The number one reason divers die is because they disregard safety guidelines, which funny enough, tends to be the experienced divers that do so.
@@Falcons8455 there is no guide line in the cave, I don’t know why but there isn’t, that’s why the special diver died because there is no way other than feeling your way around to exit the cave
In Mr Ballen's video he said that the dive data from the other ppl on the trip supported the idea that Miroslav was alone and thus was the only person who could have done the stabbing.
The dive computer illustrates exactly what happened. The story becomes much more believable when see a chart of the victim’s depth measured at 20-second intervals.
I have no reason to doubt the validity of this case. People don’t think straight when they panic. We can sit here and say how stupid his decision was but we need to realise that he wasn’t an experienced diver and was panicking. I’ve made some stupid decisions when I have been panicking and haven’t been thinking straight.
THIS. Inexperience in a super dangerous cave and he panic'd... I've had a friend who we grew up together like brothers, stayed at eachothers house for months on end etc, he got caught in the middle of open water and nearly killed me out of panic, 30 minutes later he started bawling crying and hardly could sleep that night, he felt so guilty and kept saying "he didn't know what happened he didn't mean to", he was drowning and panicking.. Things happen when panic is involved
You don't panic stab yourself in the heart in a way that's going to immediately kill you. Your sternum is a very hard obstacle to get through. Have you ever tried to apply a stabbing force on something through the water? Your power is weakened. The more likely scenario is as he was drowning he was failing around and accidentally was stabbed. There is no way he made the intentional decision to stab himself. The people that read the final report said he drowned and the wound was a contributing factor to his death. So he didn't die of a self-inflicted wound. He died of drowning and the wound. So he failed at killing himself if he did since he just died of drowning either way.
@@FrostySumo Did you even read the article before typing a paragraph? The man died from drowning, not the stab. He ATTEMPTED to stab himself in the heart. There was no signs of a struggle, they investigated it as a murder at first. You go from asserting it's insanely difficult to stab oneself but then assert he "accidentally" did it as if you can just accidentally shove a blade through your chest.
I've not gone cave diving, let alone underwater cave diving but have been in near-drowning situations. In such moments, my response was a fight to stay alive. Sink or Swim. It isn't about thinking straight and I was most certainly in a state of panic. HELLO YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE!!! FUCKING DO SOMETHING OR THIS IS THE END!! And here I am to speak on it. What Woody and Gus are expressing, albeit seeming to come from an area of reason, is that don't give up instinct that one should have when putting themselves in such situations.
@@bgok4059 lmao
As an ex military diver, it always amazing to me what some civilian divers do with little experience. I had just retired and my ex wife's friend informed me she had JUST finished her basic dive course and she and a couple of friends were going to dive on a submarine wreck in deep water. I said have you done this before or been taught about the dangers. Of course not, she just laughed me off and " what would l know " because lm old. Anyway short story, she nearly died and has never dived again.
the special police divers are 2 guys one of them died and the other didnt i dont understand why they didnt have guide lines if they know its a dangerous cave and are taking bodies out of it
Lol that's crack up
Well to be dead real most of them think snorkeling and diving are the same thing. Yeah, yup, heh, this and lets see, uhhh sky divings another one. parasailing even. base jumping, yup. All 3 and ive had myself and see my friends dragged into by there naive girlfriends, almost die and have a horrible time, and then have the girlfriend turn around and act mad to the guys like we planned it, or like we could of somehow prevented all of this. Even camping, my one friends girlfriend ( never camped a day in hre lie ) decides well, she wants to get into camping because she saw some photos on instagram! or read a blog, who knows right. Well, sure enough, she ends up dragging like 4 other couples along with her, first night not even kidding she couldnt sleep in the tent because of mosquitoes, and left... Discreetly mind you. Yeah nah, guys dont be that dumb. Dont be a victim of some dumb death because ur girlfriend thought scuba diving was the same thing as snorkeling.
@@profo4544 interesting stories, but I can feel the sexism coming through. Lets not tell men how to treat women, nor vice versa. We're all people, and all people make mistakes.
@@ethandoingstuff1433 get out with this stupid sexism bullcrap! there is not a least bit of sexism in that post!
I absolutely believe stabbing yourself out of panic of drowning is 100% believable, I got into an incident when I was in my 20's where I was trying to work out where I should cut myself to bleed out fast or without pain rather than dying in the situation I was in, I even took photos of myself smiling and shrugging my shoulders so when they found me, my family would be hopefully ok with my decision, luckily I was found maybe only an hr or 2 before I did it, but believe me, I was going to do it.
Aight gus is fucking insane. I lost it at "there's a million ways to explain a knife to the heart" especially considering we're talking about a guy inside a cave underwater.
True
Dunning Kruger
@@heinzriemann3213 that was an interesting google search. thanks :)
i like how he's willing to acknowledge that when people are intoxicated they'll do illogical stuff like swim down to get to the surface, or take off their rebreather to breathe air because they think they're on the surface and inhale water, but it's impossible that someone would ever stab themselves.
not true
@@weld4200 what is not true? there is plenty of medical documentation on how nitrogen narcosis makes people act irrationally.
Your misrepresenting his argument, he never said it was impossible, but less likely
@@albo181 No, the guy on the right flat out denied it happened. I agree with L
@@PukkaKeef because he’s rejecting the erroneous speculation. You can’t claim that it’s more implausible for foul play to have occurred, but then blindly accept that only suicide explains a knife in the chest. Neither is believable because we’re missing a lot of data. And for some reason Woody, guy in the left, is being a dick about it.
The best thing about this video.. Is it shows exactly what these two are like in real life.. It makes a long van ride very interesting and entertaining..
People probably think this is all scripted 😂
@@DIVETALK no way this is scripted. I laughed so hard, I snorted.
Logical conclusion is foul play.
@@DIVETALK not a chance 🤣 you guys are amazing, the chemistry and obvious true friendship between you two is a big part of why I am here for every video. I just know I’m going to be smiling And will definitely get a laugh out of each video. Fan for life here❤️ thanks for being you!
@@DIVETALK where's the link to the report?
I'm finding it hard to swallow. Was it his knife that made the wound?
That Diver gave up too fast... I know somebody that ended up in an air pocket...had that same feeling (to use his knife to kill himself) and waited 4 days and finally got rescued...what a battle.
Hard to say when your in that moment you know? He probably didn't think he'd live long enough to be rescued, and his other options weren't really good options in his mind. Its like either he drowns or runs out of air, both are agonizing espically since he had a fear of drowning. Stab in the heart will honestly kill you quick, maybe acouple minutes since there's no fresh blood in your brain. Gus was very close minded here, he likes to think rationally and eliminate emotions in a discussion when unfortunately it's the exact opposite here and most other situations similar to this. Very sad way to go, then you have people saying "that's impossible, it's so stupid! Just do this or that!" That's not how real life works. Untrained diver trapped in an underwater cave with a major fear of drowning.. he took his own way out and you gotta respect that atleast, hopefully in his final moments he thought back on all the warmth and amazing things in life instead of a deep dark cold hole with no one around you. A horrible mistake leading to him making a horrible choice, no one could ever imagine what it takes to make that decision unless you've lived through that yourself. I mean the police ruled out everything except suicide and Gus is still denying even the possibility it's true to this day 🤦 I'm glad I'm pretty open minded and can put myself in someone else's shoes, and imagine what they think or feel.
How do we know it wasn’t bad air tho?
@@Kratos-eg7ezvery well said. Gus came off as immature here.
I’ve got to agree with the others here - dying by drowning is my worst fear. I’d rather have control over my death in a different way probably by taking my own life instead of letting myself breathe in water and drown in the dark - that terrifies me
Agreed. My same fear.
You must have a big balls to put a knife in your heart.
But he probably had a dry suit or 7mm wet suit, the diving knife is nothing special, considering that you’re under the water so you don’t have allot of power it’s kinda crazy and almost irrealistic that in one shot you can do it. Drowning it’s scary for sure, but it takes between 3-5min
Maybe he was actually planning to commit suicide and did it like this because he wanted to be diving while he went out? Idk just a thought
@@K3T1 In a state of panic like that the afrenaline is crazy, he probably wedged it in quite slowly without feeling a thing
I actually found medical report from Croatia that indeed one diver was found with a wound in the heart. While at first it was a suspected homicide, later autopsy confirmed that it was a suicide when the diver was running low on air. It's so bizarre but it seems to be true. Stranger than fiction.
You found the one Gus said he put in the description?
Y'all have me laughing so hard. Poor Woody saying "tell me when I can talk" as Gus rants and raves. The pizza toppings. The fact that Woody is part octopus coming up again. Just a super entertaining episode. Thanks! You gave me joy on my first day back to work for the new year.
When he said "I would believe a rattle snake with a "Pet me" sign on ". I cried laughing in the middle of my shift at work
When Woody said tell me when I can talk, it reminded me of when I talked to my dad all the time lol. He would always say things like that when I got really into a topic and wouldn't shut up
@@silentdarkness6260 oh I do that a lot, ADHD
Same lmao
They really are the best aren't they! I hope to meet them one day when they come to Florida
Gus, it "IS" possible to do ! My little brother committed suicide the same way, it may be an obscure way, but I promise you it's possible.
They weren't expert divers. They were young dudes that thought on a whim it'd be cool to dive in to a cave they weren't familiar with nor properly prepared for.
I think it is exactly as Woody suggests at the end. Panic, desperation, crushing realizations, probable hyperventilation, and CO2 effects...just one of those is enough to push a diver, especially an inexperienced one, to illogical thought processes. Human brains are complex and we never truly know how others will react in dire situations.
Crazy people do not pick the most difficult and rarest method of suicide, even when they’re bats**t insane. Wrists, throat, even just bashing your head into a rock wall till you’re unconscious are all far more common and effective means of death. I’d be more willing to accept that his friends were lost with him and in his desperation attacked his friends and one of them defended by stabbing the knife in. It was self defense, but easier to just report him missing and suggest suicide. Even then, the story would have holes, less holes than the suicide hypothesis, but still less difficult to believe.
@@Billsbob Homicide obviously would have been the investigators' first thought too until they ruled it out, according to one source: 'Careful forensic analysis of the profile of the diver's last dive stored in the dive computer, dimensions of the undersea cave, as well as other forensic findings, showed that the case was a suicide'.
@@MilitantBlackGuy1 it was their first thought, you're correct, if billsbob had bothered to read a few of the top comments he could have learned something. More fool him. 😄❤
@@Billsbob really? How come there are stories of people using chainsaws etc to CS? You're obviously not well informed about what you speak of, educate yourself and try again... 🤭🤣
I think gus is off in satimgbthevguy coukdnt jave asbhe needs soecial heart surgeon skills.
As that would then apply to someine murderimg him as well, where they skilled surgeons? Lol no.
So if some freind could stab him ,(its not like he would be in an open chest ,pleaee stab me in clear wster position) then he could stab himself just as easily.
It is rare, but people do commit suicide by stabbing their own heart.
As far as killing ones self to avoid drowning, it is common for people to fear drowning or burning alive more than other forms of death. Also take into consideration at 50 plus meters down he was likely narced out his mind.
Yes, he had air, so probably he was pretty narced and had alcohol in the mix as well. Still, hard way to go. And tricky to do, I would imagine.
Right, just like jumpers from WTC on 9 11.
wow yep those are my top 2 on the spot
Also people have set themselves on fire before, as unimaginable as that is. Albeit not usually for a traditional suicide but still, it has happened.
Gus must hate the fact that he went out like a boss,
Gus hasn’t experienced drowning and it’s not quick.
I want you guys on my jury if I ever end up accused of anything. It's a hung jury for sure, lol.
I am 100% on board with Woody. The struggle, the panic, the fear was much longer than the last 3 minutes in the air pocket. His descent was quick. His ascent took forever. He was terrified and had to make a choice. He knew he had tried over and over again and the ascent to the exit was not available and his inability to escape made no sense. There is no holding your breath that long when you have no idea where you are going. He chose the lesser of the two agonizing deaths, an instant death, a knife to the heart.
lmao that would not be instant at all and there were no hesitation wounds, it doesn't seem like a suicide to me
@@reillyd.4753 in an adrenaline induced state, there wouldn't be a hesitation. Also the mental state he was in might also have allowed
That would not be an instant death
Honestly I'm just gonna drown so my family can get my life insurance
Not even close to instant. He likely still drowned since it takes minutes to die after the heart stops pumping
Gus: "There's a thousand ways to explain why someone has a knife in their heart!"
Woody: "There are!?"
I have 2 explanations. Either he put it there themself, or someone else did.
😂
Exactly what I was thinking. Also there are other videos on this incident, he died of Drowning... so he either stabbed himself and then drowned... seems odd, or someone else stabbed him and he drowned, seems more likely
@@txaggievet mr ballen got the part about the other divers going in the cave wrong he was the only one that went in and when he tired to stab himself being under water with little air a wet suit probably a shitty knife and more than likely exhausted he didn’t have enough force to stab his heart fully which is why the cause of death was drowning and a knife wound
@@txaggievet The official report suspected homicide and arrested his friends, however the official Forensic report showed it was suicide and the suspects were released.
I was thinking maybe he waited for these guys to come and save him, when the other driver got lost he found him but the police driver went out of air while searching for him but this guy that got lost in the first place was still having a little oxygen left. They realised the cave would not have enough air to breath until someone else would come and rescuse them because it was getting difficult to breath. In the end the police driver killed him and took his oxygen and exchanged the bags so in case someone would find them they would assume he killed himself. I am just saying 😂 i know nothing about diving.
No…
I love learning from you guys. I’m not a diver, don’t like water really. But there’s something so fascinating about the unknown. I live vicariously through those that get to experience such a thing.
Reading the report to, it says he died from a mix of drowning and the stab wound.
Since Woody mentioned Occam's razor "The simplest explanation is usually the correct one." That reminded me of Hanlon's razor " Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I think we can use these to come to the reasonable conclusion that the inexperienced diver, in a unfamiliar and highly stressful life-threatening situation, panicked and stabbed himself. If he were adequately trained/experienced in cave diving (Like Woody and Gus) he probably wouldn't have stabbed himself. I think the government's statement also lends credence to this story.
I sent you guys an article about this case about a year ago. It was an academic journal article. The dive computer shows he went up and down 4 or 5 times in the deeper gallery. He did go until the very end. It was only at the very end that he did this. I’m not a diver but I’ve read SOOO much about this case. You guys obviously know far more about diving than I do but I believe 100% this happened and so did the medical examiners.
gus is just ego tripping.
I agree with Woody. Just because Gus would never think of stabbing him self in the heart, doesn’t mean other people wouldn’t. I’d hate to drown to death so I can’t say I wouldn’t do something drastic like stabbing my self
It’s like you guys switch personalities in this episode-Gus with the out-there sounding theories and woody being the skeptic and delivering some amazing zingers 😂😂
Just because you wouldn't do something doesn't mean somebody else wouldn't do it
Gus I think you forget a very major fact here, PANIC! The guy was alone and panicked! Panic make people do inconsiderate things like stabe themselves in the heart in one blow to avoid a painful drowning death! Panic made people jump off the highest floors of the burning towers on 9/11 to avoid a horrible death by burning!
Common sense cannot obliterate panic because panic is the most common and instinctiv feeling of any living creature even if it brings death in the end! And that makes it the most dangerous feeling...
I think the story is true
This is the best answer
Drowning is not painful..... it's just frightening as all hell because it goes against the body's sheer will to breath.
It's actually been shown somewhat scientifically to be the worst way to go. Waterboarding is the most panic inducing physical torture, I belive it was determined using measurements of certain neurotransmitters but I could be wrong. Vsauce did a video on it a long time ago
Re-reading your comment maybe you're right maybe it's not painful, but hopefully none of us ever find out
Just so you guys know....whenever Mr Ballen uses an actual photo, he labels "real photo" at the top or bottom of the photo. Just for future knowledge. So the only real photo he used in that clip was of Miroslov and the cave in the beginning. And I agree with Woody. The mind will make one do crazy things when in panic. Plus Miroslov was not an expert cave diver...so its plausible to assume that maybe he didnt think or react like one.
Romans “fell on their swords “ all the time, it was a very common thing in history to stab yourself in the heart rather than facing a worse death… the Roman’s did it so they weren’t crucified this guy did it to not drown…
I’ve never been diving & never wanna go diving. But I low key love this channel because it reminds me why I’m never gonna go diving 🫡
Agreed💯😭
I know croatian and i read some articles of the event. Things that are hundred percent true are that miroslav was found with knife in his chest and that it is officially cause of death. Police suspected murder at first and they even quaestioned two other divers and they both failed polygraph testing but it was later said that they couldnt murder him.
Weird situation if you ask me anything could have happened that day
I agree and the only one who knew what happened is dead.
The video said 2 divers out of 3 died therefore the official report makes no sense or the video is wrong that 2 divers died.
@@annsheridan12 the other one was policeman who came to retrieve the body. Then his body was retrieved with miroslavs body later
@@ivanjanjic9862 😎👍🏻
Lmfao they failed the polygraph (even though they are only 80% reliable) but still "eh we know better, get outta heah ya wacky kids".
I think this story is really revealing about what panic can do to some people, and I have absolutely no boubt in my mind that this guy stabbed himself. I mean during the Twin Tower explosions, you could also see people throwing themselves from the building as they could see the fire encoraching on them, and they were plumeting hundreds of feet. I've heard of plenty of stories of people killing themselves upon ISIS takeovers of their land out of fear of being brutally tortured, and I've also seen mothers endanger the lives of their children in panic-enduced fenzies while they're in a car chase with police with their baby in the backseat. Panic works a lot like psychosis in some people, and it affects some more than others.
Especially when your life is concerned, you're bound to make irrational decisions that are, indeed, stupid. But I can't honestly laugh at the guy at all... I feel terribly for him and his family. He didn't deserve to die in that way, but he can only blame himself. Hopefully his story will warn other potential idiots who want to do the same thing he did. Great video by the way.
The point is that it's very unlikely you can stab yourself in the perfect spot one time and die. He said a top heart surgeon said he couldn't stab himself in the heart and kill himself with one thrust.
They found his body and stuck a knife in it to make it a cool story. jk
We don't know shit..for all we know he got trapped down there with his buddies, they found him in an air pocket and said they couldn't save him so he told them to stab him. It is beyond strange for this to happen.
@@cheddarballs864 Nobody claimed he got a clean shot. Cause of death was still drowning, after all.
@Sitcom Christian watch the video. He said, "cause of death was reported as one clean thrust to the heart"
@@cheddarballs864 It didn't necessarily say one clean hit to the heart. Just that they did in fact die due to the stab wound. It just wasn't included that drowning was a factor.
But even if it was it still doesn't change the argument.
Even if someone did stab you in the heart, while you are both in water, Hogjly unlikely they can kill you instantly. There's even times where people are shot 5 times in the chest, get back up, and then take more shots.
It's very rare you die instantly unless it's like catastrophic brute force. I don't think a penetration method could achieve that. Because even when someone is getting beheaded, they still grasp for air even when most of their neck isn't attached
From looking at the Autopsy it sounds to me like he stabbed himself in the left lung. Presumably if he was stupid enough to dive into a cave without experience, he is stupid enough to think the heart is in the wrong place.
PS: Ironically the Autopsy stated he died from drowning! (Stab wound to the lung, and then he drowned)
No one can say how they'll react to any situation, unless & until you're in it, you don't know what you'll do. Of course we all say we'd do this or that but we really don't know. Very sad regardless 💜🛐
I don't understand why Gus is so sure that the guy didn't end his own life because he didn't want to drown.. that makes a lot more sense then him being murdered by his friends. It might not make sense to Gus because he's a expert diver and they are trained not to give up but this wasn't an expert diver. He knew he was going to do die and decided to go out his way because he was in a panic.. idk that makes sense to me, I wouldn't have done that but everyone is different and thinks differently.
Like when you take the time to think of it, knife to the heart sounds more painful and slow, but right off the bat you could easily think "this is easier than drowning slowly and fighting for breath". That's what my mind jumped to at first until I had time to work it out anyways. And I have to guess that at least some divers have a phobia of drowning, maybe this guy did too. Or culturally he thought it was a better death somehow (Idk anything about Croatia). There's lots of what ifs we can do without knowing a lot more.
He literally predicted these comments 😂
Murder happens all the time tho, but stabbing yourself if your not already suicidal doesnt. And a stab wound to the heart sounds pretty panful, drowning with a stab wound sounds worse than drowning without one... im calling murder on this one
@@penguin12902 this is what I was thinking as well. The "only downside" to this is that you'll have plenty of time to realize what an idiot you have been while waiting for the air pocket to run out of breathable air
@@keinmyster8549 because its the obvious difference
So looking at the report, they initially thought murder because people having knives in them is suspicious. However, neither of the other divers could have based on the data from the dive computers. Investigators even tried running simulations where he was murdered on the boat and the dive computer taken down to simulate the dive. Those possibilities were eliminated, too, based on timing. They also noted that it was the divers knife used, it was a clean cut, bo defense wounds, and that the wound matched a self inflicted wound. It also noted that he had consumed alcohol. It's weird, but it feels like they really ended up on suicide by eliminating other possibilities. Between alcohol and potential build up of nitrogen, maybe we are looking for a rational explanation to a decision that did not have one.
Or we are looking at something more simple.
I will not drown good bye world.
Lol what's with the other shit.
@@lolicongang.4974 he took on water either way, he thought he would die instantly because that’s what movies tell you, stab to the heart is instant but it’s not, Mrballen did leave out the part where he took on some water after he had stabbed himself but the was the main culprit
And what if you miss your heart now you're bleeding out and drowning. I'm also guessing the guy wasn't religious
@@SadalDayyeah right ? if you don’t do it right you’re basically gonna bleed to death and drown at the same time , like you would make your death twice as painful now.
@@lolicongang.4974that’s literally what OP said.
Omg your guys killing me 'Octopus are aliens' ...lol
I love dive talk so much they’re so real. And I love that they can have debates with each other and disagree with each other.
Okay, but Mr. B. Allen said at the beginning that these divers were not trained to the level of this dive. Saying that cave divers would know to find the line has nothing to do with what novice divers would do in their place.
Who is Mr B Allen Hodgkins?
You would expect the rescue divers to use a line though. That’s the strangest part about this story IMO
@@gibson17155 lol they know what's up.
@@gibson17155 rescue divers are in on it lol. There something werid with this. Murder probably with a cover up.
But isn’t that their point? Cave divers know what to do and novices don’t… so if your a novice, don’t dive caves because you won’t know what to do?
Interesting theory but here’s the plot hole. If his friend did murder him I don’t think it would be a single stab to the heart. I feel that he will be fighting not to be stabbed while receiving defensive wounds. Seeing as limited visibility this would be extremely difficult.
Absolutely
official forensic report stated it was suicide. The others were suspected for murder but after the forensic report they were released.
The investigators mentioned in the report that if his friends had the intention to kill him, they doubt they would of went with the knife method anyways:
"If there was an intention to kill the victim, the supposed killer would have probably chosen
a different way. It might be relatively easy to drown a
diver under the water. If another diver would approach the supposed victim from the back, tear the
regulator from his mouth, and hold him, being cautious of possible defense using a knife, any diver
would drown very soon. No knives or complicated
plans would be necessary. A killer could empty the
victim’s cylinder manually using the purge button of
the regulator and an investigation, finding no external
injuries, would conclude that the victim must have
drowned."
I thought they made a fair point here, a knife in the chest, during an underwater cave dive is an odd, unnecessarily complicated and very suspicious way murder someone, and since drowning is what causes the most deaths in underwater cave diving, surely any would be killers is going to go with a method thats going to make it look like that since that is going to draw the least attention and suspicion....a knife in chest is definitely not a method of least suspicion/attention....
This is honestly the first time I feel genuinely disappointed with a reaction from this channel. I will say that I enjoyed Woody's reaction. It was wonderful and I appreciated his attempts at having Gus see it from a different perspective. I am utterly flabbergasted with Gus' willful ignorance and inability to accept the information that is a Google search away. That is all it takes to verify if something is official, valid information. Just because it seems untrue & completely bizarre to Gus, that doesn't change the truth of the situation. Miroslav was an inexperienced diver with the most basic training. He went cave diving under the influence, and became heavily disoriented trying to find his way out. He had a choice for a 'quick' death or slowly drowning & he made it.. Gus may find it a ridiculous choice, and untrue, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. The official report stated that he had a wound in his pec. The cause of death was a punctured lung and ultimately drowning. Those are facts. You cannot argue, nor disagree with facts as though they are simply opinions. I really do enjoy your guy's videos, and I will, of course, continue to watch them. But, I just felt like Gus did a huge disservice to Miroslav and his family by disregarding the truth of his death.
You say facts but the report claimed that the cause of death was NOT drowning, right? So you've made logical fallacies in your pointing out of someone else's.
Google cannot go back in time and be in the cave with them.
You are actually missing the point as you claim Gus does. You say it's absurd he doesn't believe the report because the report is the truth but really you are mistakenly assuming that the report is factual. Gus is actually making less "errors" than you are in your assessment of him.
The only people who truly know what happened were in view of him when the knife entered his body.
Personally I think bringing someone into an underwater cave to kill them is the most unnecessary and ridiculous place you could possibly do it. To me it's absurd to think someone planned that out, however I certainly concede that it could have just ended up playing out that way.
@@Itemtotem Noooo, the report says the cause of death was a punctured lung AND drowning, same as she said. Do yourself a favor; find and read the report.
You got the names backwards
@@Itemtotemif you think that it was murder then you again are wrong, just like Gus. They checked the dive computers of the victim and his friends and first the police even arrested the friends bc they thought that they had to do it and that it had to be murder. But they simulated every possibility exactly with all the informations of all dive computers and came to the conclusion that it was not possible for them to do it. Whats so hard to believe that this happened even? If you read that someone threw himself under a train you also just assume that thats wrong and it didnt happen? People off themselves over way way smaller things and in way clearer situations and btw, just google how many people off themselves every day where you live. Its crazy but it happens all the time. I mean people can think whatever they want but i cant understand how seeing the information, which are the best and most credible information available to the case and they only lead to one conclusion and then some people just disregard all of that and make up whatever suits them and then think that their "idea" is more likely than what the facts clearly point to.
Not to mention always making a stabbing motion making fun of it
I'm with Woody 100% I believe everything about this story. We can't argue you down anymore Gus. I love your tactics Woody!! Too funny!!
i know right? people have done crazier things. its entirely possible.
Same here.
If you listen to Gus's tone, I feel he deep down believes it too. It doesn't make any sense that someone that was with him stabbed him and then sent rescuers to go find him. They'd just leave the guy there. But honestly, considering my own levels of anxiety, this would be my way out. Although I'd probably, like gus said, cut my wrists or something. Idk how long it takes to bleed out from a stab in the heart but that wouldn't be my first thought.
Forensic scientist can tell the difference between self inflicted stab wounds and foul play. They’d also take into account how long he and the others were under for and they’re dive computer which showed he fumbled around and that they resurfaced.
Usually yes... but I'm not sure how the body was recovered in this situation. In a lot of cave recoveries the body does get roughed up during the recovery process, so it could make the examination more difficult due to the presence of extraneous trauma. Granted depending on how long after death you theoretically could tell which wounds were after death and which occurred before/during.
Well... having spent quite some time in croatia... i don't know if i would give the croatian that much credit... really anything could have happened.
@@dariakwiatkowskowa2039 croatia has some of the best forensics in the world just behind us Canada and Japan
@@dariakwiatkowskowa2039 and official police report there was no other diver besides himself he was reported missing by those diving buddies after he never came back from the dive he told them about.
As a widow myself id like to remind everyone that people take their lives for much less than that, my husband certainly did.
God bless you. The biggest hugs
.... And the reason that Woody is dead is because Gus ordered pizza with pepperoni and sausage... that shit stabbed me in the heart lol
Some people like myself are horrified of Drowning! The Story sounds reasonable and possible. Keep up the Great work and keep these videos coming 😂
Horrified of drowning.....would you take up a amateur hobby cave diving if you were horrified of drowning?
But aren't you horrified of stabbing yourself in the heart too?
@@xXCigarXx I free dive and drowning is definitely worse than a near instant death
Horrified of drowning yes... more horrified of plunging a knife into my own heart... yes. Also the official report shows he died from drowning, NOT from the knife wound
@@xXCigarXx That's the 1 milion question right there. If I'm horrified of drowning I'd never dive in the fisrt place...especially in a picth black cave....LOL
Thank you for putting the actual report in the description. I highly recommend anyone watching the video, go and read that report. I think if Woody and Gus had actually read it, their opinions might be a bit different. The poor gentleman in question did show signs of drowning, and also had stabbed himself, not so much in the heart, but in the chest, he’d actually punctured the lung space on the left side. Unfortunately, there is not conclusive answer as to whether or not he had stabbed himself, or if someone else had done it. But all the evidence points at him having done it himself, and so that is what ppl are going with.
yeah, if it was murder there would be more signs of struggle and multiple stab wounds. The murder would also have needed to wrangle the victim's own knife to kill, so that makes murder all the less plausible.
@Robin Shishido First of all thats not entirely true. The dive computers were examined and he was alone in the deep cave by himself. He also spent 5 mins in the air pocket then went up and down in a frenzy before stabbing himself and sinking to the bottom. The police investigated it as a murder but every single piece of evidence pointed to suicide. So no, nobody else stabbed him when he was the only one in the cave. He also had a blood alcohol level of .114
My friend with bipolar took a kitchen knife and plunged it into his chest trying to hit his heart. He missed it by a fraction of an inch and survived thankfully. But he did it and was found bleeding in bed by his sister.
Admittedly he was having a bipolar episode, but one would imagine the stress of being about to drown would be rather intense too.
All that is just to say, a person most certainly can stab themselves in the heart if they are motivated to do so. Just because that isn't how you would do it, doesn't mean that's not how someone else could do it.
The way I see it, he did it so he dies fast as he's just in an air pocket. If he cuts his wrist and dies slowly from blood loss, odds are he's going to lose strength and slip under water and drown anyway, which is exactly what he's seemingly trying so hard to avoid he was willing to stab himself in the heart to avoid it.
If you are that terrified of drowning though, one would wonder why he was a diver...
Gus and woody, i have never heard you two get into it like this, and i gotta say it has made me laugh and brought a huge smile to my face!
I’ve heard of cases where people commited suicide by stabbing themselves in the heart. Usually I’m a skeptic in these kinds of things but this isn’t so far fetched that it couldn’t be possible. And I’m sure there is people out there that would rather burn to death than drown.
From my opinion as a former paramedic is that people go for their own troath and the carotid artery because it will make you unconscious very fast and bleed out in just a minute. The problem is that most stops and retracts the knife when they puncture the skin. I've never met a person that has tried to stab them self in the heart. Also the sternum, ribs and ligaments are in the way and you need to be very accurate with the stabbing.
And all I got to say is one word seppuca
There was no water in his lungs...he died by the knife in his heart. If u wana say he didn't put it there fine. But it was his cause of death. Agreed
@@Musiknird i don't think anybody would try to stab their heart through the sternum. Going from the left side and positioning the knife horizontally should give a pretty easy entry.
@@Musiknird if you get the knife between the ribs you'd be shocked at how easy it goes in (source: I've had to finish off a few deer in my time, not too fun)
It wouldn't have been my first thought either but it's definitely possible. I've seen people do some wild things. Drowning is considered by many to be one of the worst ways to go and not everyone has that fight to survive. I can see both sides of the argument though for sure. This was a great one guys 🤣
But would you be a scuba diver and take chances in diving if your fear of drowning was that strong. Would you be a fireman if your bigest fear was burning to death?
I have saw the opposite. "Drowning is one of the more peaceful ways to go."
@@lmckinley145 I know a fair amount of divers who are scared of drowning. They love the environmental features that you can't see on land enough to 'risk it'. Imo the likelihood of an OC rec diver who sticks to their training and their capabilities is super super low. It's not unheard of for catastrophic failures to just snowball out of the blue, but it's not happening everyday.
@@neutaq5553 Nothing like broomstick rape.
@@neutaq5553 Yea, I think once you can't hold it anymore and you inhale that water... it's done. I could think of many many worse situations of going out
I know i'm a year late but I think they are forgetting that 2 people died in the cave. If one guy was going back and forth and drowned, it's easy to think the other guy panicked and killed himself.
The video clearly stated they were not even novice divers, they did not go into the cave with a lot of logic on hand. Also, my husband heard the title and immediately thought it made sense. Drowning is terrifying and it hurts, some people would rather go on their own terms. Might seem extreme to many, but to some people it's a calmer death when you have the control.
Based just on the report...it really does seem like the unfortunate victim did in fact just not want to drown, and stabbed himself hoping for a quicker death than what he knew was coming. Didn't quite get the heart, but the knife did cause enough damage to make the wound fatal in a few minutes. I dunno, we can't know exactly what went through his brain at that time, being slightly inebriated and probably a bit narced on top of knowing his end was near. In any case, poor guy. That's not what he was looking for when he decided "Ahh you know what, i wanna go see the cave too"...maybe if he was better trained he could have made it. Also might have helped if there was a permanent line in the cave, i didn't see any mention of one in the report.
It is virtually impossible to stab yourself in the heart. Your heart is well protected by your rib cage, not to mention, he was wearing a dive suit that is almost impossible to tear. The story is a complete lie. It makes no sense.
@@rickjason215 Yeah, it's pretty hard to get the heart from the front, which is where the report is showing the wound to be. Probably part of why he seemingly nicked the top of his lung and the aorta instead. As to wetsuit durability, they never struck me as being that tough...a quick search around revealed that neoprene suits such as he was wearing are damaged by things like sharp rocks, and fingernails. I'm not quite sure how he managed to get the blade all the way in (11cm), but that's the only part that seems odd to me after looking at the other data. Knife might have been really sharp. They looked at the possibility that he was done in by one of the other guys, but the dive computer data didn't allow for that...who knows, maybe his plan if he ever ran out of air under the water was to take this measure. It's all based purely on a report from the Croatian Medical Journal which states that even they aren't certain, but it's possible.
@@TheOnlyLegitimateZoigle In my experience, dive knives are not that sharp. You don’t want accidental cuts. I worked most of my life in a hospital and never saw a stab that reached the heart. To drive a knife through a rib cage would be an amazing feat of strength. I would think, most people would fight to get out, until the end. People panic to survive. It may be true, but when does the media ever get stuff right?
@@rickjason215 Yeah, i can imagine you wouldn't want to say...cut a bit of rope or seaweed to avoid entanglement then oops, pushed a bit too hard and now your suit is compromised at the hand! Far from ideal. Survival drive in humans (in most living things really) is quite strong, this guy maybe worked a bit differently. It's all maybes, i can't say i know anything about the incident apart from what i've read. Could even be some crazy coverup. It is all quite interesting though, tragic but interesting.
@@TheOnlyLegitimateZoigle Whenever I was at an event covered by the media, they never got the story right. It’s a lot more interesting to say he stabbed himself in the hart than to say he ran out of air and drowned. Especially if it is a TH-cam story.
My belief is that he simply panicked and the brain can do terrible things under such circumstances. They were NOT cave divers according to the story, which only proves what you guys say all the time: don’t go cave diving without proper training and equipment!
Interesting reaction video.
Respect from Sweden 🇸🇪
Can I just say I suffered from a phobia of deep water aka the ocean and started watching diving vodeos and stumbled across yalls channel... and I just wann asay how much I have fallen in love with yalls channel.
I was telling my partner im gunna get over my fear of scuba diving/being underwater and take a class one day with yall as my instructors! lol
I seen another diver who was trapped in a toxic cave that almost stabbed himself. He didn’t, and ended up being rescued. It’s a diver I’m sure you guys know, or heard of. He was a big time cave diver.
My whole family is full of Slavs. This sounds exactly like what one of my Slavic male relatives would do in the same situation. There’s something “macho” about them. I do think the guy panicked and killed himself. Why would the coroner lie? Perhaps the coroner was paid off? Could be. There is a lot of shady stuff that goes on. But how’d the guy get back into the chamber? His friends killed him and then left? The report says his friends never made it into the cave; they analyzed their dive computers.
One of your Slavs male relatives would find an air pocket literally giving him the air needed to live and he still decides to stab himself in the heart? Wow.
@@DIVETALK
Yes, @DIVE TALK, it has something to do with the sense of control. Hence the “macho” part. You can’t control your environment and you’ve lost control of your situation, so the only control I have is by death by my own hands.
I don’t condone or support suicide whatsoever, but having spoken to some people who were suicidal, they told me that that was the only way they could feel any sense of control over their messed up lives
@@DIVETALK The Japanese are the same way. Rather than being taken prisoner in war they would kill themselves by stabbing themselves or blowing themselves up with a grenade. Self-inflicted honor killing.
@@DIVETALK gus take a nap
Is it macho to stab yourself after you got given a lifeline such as a pocket of air?
No. Frankly that’s the most pussy, weak, pathetic, non-admirable and unmanly move that a man can make in such situation.
Do you know what would actually be the macho thing to do in this situation.
It would be to take air from the pocket, go back down to search for the exit and go back to that pocket every time your air runs out. Repeat that as many times as you must until you either find the exit and survive or run out of air and either pass out from CO2 or drown while on your last diving holding the last oxygen of that pocket.
NOW THAT IS MACHO! NOW THAT IS ADMIRABLE!
I don’t know whether Slavs really think like you say but down here in Greece the behaviour of this diver would get you a minute of silence out of empathy followed by a deep thought of just how pathetic a human must be that chooses to kill himself instead of fighting until the very end to survive.
As someone who has been suicidal in the past, I can honestly understand this guy. He may have gone cave diving and have been passively suicidal like "If I come out I live but if I don't I'll take the opportunity to kill myself." That type of thinking isn't unheard of. Putting oneself in a dangerous situation and leaving it up to fate. On top of not knowing his mental state going on, adrenaline is pumping, you're panicking, you fear drowning, he came up from huge depths and may have been out of it to begin with. I can absolutely believe he killed himself.
He panicked and suffered for it, ultimately he did end up drowning with a knife in his chest. I get where youre coming from but the reality is he just made the drowning death worse. I guess he could have lost consciousness before dying
Don’t make assumptions
This is exactly what I'm thinking. Gus doesn't believe it because he thinks that the guy would think exactly like him in that situation and thinks there is a deeper conspiracy behind it, when in reality even if he was the slightest bit suicidal, in a panicked moment like that where hes not trained to stay calm I totally can see this guy being not so stable and just making a quick decision in panic. The last decision he could make for himself
Anyone with basic common sense can believe he killed himself. Gus is just on one for no reason
@@Zaevia tell that to Gus. You know, the one ignoring all of the evidence and making assumptions based on absolutely nothing.
Fascinating to see how many people are confident that he didn't do it without offering any justification or explanation to the contrary.
In that situation, there is only ONE other case where someone ends up with a knife in his chest. Someone else put it there. In some other version ive seen, his friends got detained by the police under suspicion of murder. But they eventually concluded it was suicide.
I never realised Navy Seals called the things on your feet 'flippers'. Perhaps he's just helping a non-specialised audience identify with the story.
I hadn't realised also he was diving alone, going in some minutes after the others, and a bit drunk. So it starts to look all a bit Dunning Kruger: Guy has a couple of drinks with dinner and decides to go diving, at night, alone. So his judgement is already a little impaired, he's overconfident, under-experienced and not trained for the scenario. The good news for potential cave divers is that all these things have solutions!
I see the police did briefly arrest the 2 others who were in the water but found they couldn't have been involved. The expert divers consulted also found suicide hard to believe but it looks like he did indeed stab himself. You made the point that it's hard to stab your own heart, and it seems he missed but got the left lung and the arch of the aorta, which would certainly kill you in a couple of minutes. I can only imagine he was narked, maybe the air in the top of the chamber was a bit high on CO2, he still had enough alcohol to potentially lose a UK driving licence, he had no training to fall back on and he was panicked. Rational behaviour is unlikely. Very sad, and also sad they sent in someone apparently also unqualified to get the body.
I love Mr Ballens videos, and to see y’all react to his videos makes my day. Having such a perfect storyteller then to have cave divers to go deeper into the story is the perfect combo! Thanks for this video!
There is a difference between listening and waiting to talk....that's all.
It absolutely surprised me, because I'm currently studying, when he mentioned it happened in Croatia.
"Octopus are aliens." - Woody 2022. You two are amazing haha
Most of the time I follow Gus' mindset but its so silly to think someone followed this guy down and murdered him underwater. Down to the point of what motivates any official records to be lied about, why? Who has anything to gain from that?
If they thought foul play was involved Im sure they investigated for defensive wounds.
Thinking about Seppuku people can definitely end their lives with one shot. Even if someone were to wound themselves and not kill themselves instantly theyd lose strength and die from bloodloss still.
Also, it seems that if they wanted to murder someone in a cave dive then stabbing them in the heart and leaving it in is the literal stupidest way they could do it 😂
Murderer: I stabbed him in the heart but I made sure that all his air is empty. Everyone will think he drowned
Police: hey there is a knife in this guy.
Murderer: yea but his air is gone, obviously drowned :)
and they really wouldn't have needed to stab him because he was going to die anyway
@@christianwatt2924 That’s what I was saying 😂 Just implicating yourself for no reason at all
Perfect display of an old wise guy talking logical reasoning into a younger man. Did not expect Woody to give Gus life lessons in this episode.
"special diver" would mean a rescue squad with rescue equipment
You two are so fun to listen to! I absolutely love that you guys don’t agree, now this is real TH-cam! Thank you both! I just started watching all your videos, and subscribed!
This is why I love watching you guys. The back and forth between you is amazing. Keep up the great vids guys
MrBallen is an amazing channel to watch as well, I really enjoy his stories so seeing you guys react to his video is great, I got to see MrBallen’s story with you guys reacting
the back and forth between you to was so funny..i laughed so hard..thanks for that
This has to be one of the best dive talk video's purely because Gus and Woody were totally themselves and couldn't come to an agreement on the story. These guys are hilarious and make great entertainment when they argue... I'm with you Gus a Mushroom and cheese pizza is gross! Pepperoni and sausage is the only way to go its just universally good for everyone. Try Pepperoni with bacon(breakfast style bacon) and pineapple on little Ceasars thin crust cooked well done... you can thank me later lol
Also when it comes to the story I'm sorry Woody but I'm with Gus, I think they murdered the dude or just 1 guy did in the deep room and left him an empty cylinder and covered it up as an out of gas suicide. Also the story sounds dumb claiming the "Special Divers" also made the mistake as the first guy... if they were Trained Special divers they would have ran a line To avoid that exact problem seing as the Cave had O% visibility... Whole story sounds so far fetched, and Unlikely
Little Caesar’s is barely pizza
@@austinmitchell8166 is quick easy and cheap and pretty much everywhere i did the same on dominoes thin crust but it felt like eating cardboard for crust
@@austinmitchell8166 plus dominoes has really gone to shit over the past couple years. Can't beat local pizza shops
What actually happened was that when the diver got into the cave he discovered a secret meeting of aquatic aliens!The aliens then used their mind control to make him stab himself.I think Woody should do an on site investigation,and use his fish communication skills to interview some of the local aquatic life and gather some more info!Will be waiting for the new video...
🤣🤣🤣🤣Touché!
It’s so nice to hear a legit argument that doesn’t end in hatred
I mean it would make for an interesting murder plot. "Hey friend want to go for a swim in this really dangerous dark place?"
I glanced through the report linked in the description. At the very least, the wound is real, there's literally a photo in the document. However, it was definitely not an "instant kill" stab, apparently he died some 2 minutes after the wound was inflicted. Also, apparently there was some alcohol found in his blood. Also, authors of the document considered both premediated murder and accident during rescue, but both were ruled out (read the document yourself for detail on that).
Personally, after watching and reading the reports I believe he did it. With the dive computer data available I'm not sure how a killer would fake it given the time tables.
Some people are really scared of drowning man.
That last line you said is facts. He probably assumed stabbing him self would be a quicker & less painful death than drowning, plus he must’ve been panicking. Poor guy.
Its just a dive computer you could just leave it on the boat and dive without.
@@peterpindel8299 And fake the depth/ pressure/ time data?
@@playmaka2007 he means the killer
I would absolutely do that rather than drown, myself. It's not unlike people on 9/11 choosing to fall to their deaths over burning to death in the towers. Which results in less suffering and agony? I'm more afraid of pain than dying, and I have heard drowning described as one of the worst slow deaths that aren't related to illness. No thank you, sir or ma'am, just stab me and end my suffering.
Hey guys i was just reading some croatian news, and it was mentioned that 2 of the divers didn't pass polygraph testing, and that they reacted to the words "knife" and "blood". So probably as well one of the reasons police was suspecting homicide.
This is a part of the translation that was released to the public.
"This course of events is the most likely. Kukliš entered the sea and dived unhindered to the maximum depth of the cave. He started to emerge almost immediately, but made the wrong exit. Namely, the cave has two branches and the exit from the deeper part is easy to miss. He ended up in a shallower part of the cave and, as the instruments show, he managed to emerge to a depth of 35 meters and was completely lost.
For more than half an hour, Kukliš tried to find a way out, but to no avail. The instruments showed five minutes of relatively stable depth and it is assumed that he was trying to inhale air bubbles from the roof of the deeper part of the cave. The instruments recorded a relatively flat fall to the bottom and the authors of the paper believe that at that moment Kukliš committed suicide and fell unconscious. As he lost consciousness, he fell to the bottom. Poganica Cave took three lives. "
The hypothetical scenarios about why you might stab each other in the heart are hilarious
I’ve read the report. They thought that it was strange and investigated the possibility of a murder. But it seemed like the suicide is the most probable option here.
17:35 - haha, I love how the convo turned into a discussion about pizza! Fun side note, I'm currently wearing my pizza hiking socks.
I wear pizza for socks as well...... Love the squish in my boots when I'm hikeing
@@lindawuorio5466 Multipurpose pizza!
I'm hungry see what you did!! Bacon pizza just ordered😁
You still rockin those pizza socks bruh?
I'm actually eating pizza right now watching this. Kinda creepy.
My mother knew his mother - she worked in same hospital. She never believed hi did this and always was thinking about murder. We will never know for sure. I can imagine that one does not want to drown.. but to have balls to stab youself to heart? Well.. shiit
the guy had a blood alcohol level of .114 and nitrogen narcosis. all the evidence points to him not thinking straight and doing this to himself.
I did my very first dive in the grand caman islands a couple years ago. I fell in love with it. I think about diving all the time & get certified. This channel helps me learn a lot.
After seeing some horror stories I know 1 thing for sure. I will never cave dive
People do crazy things when they are terrified, I could 100% see this happening.