ok but have you considered that going 5 and 20 is actually really fun because of the sheer dopamine content in those 5 killa edit: oh shit it is gambling
@@JohnPikeman except Pyro is actually a strong class. powerjack, flare guns, airblast. Do you seriously think a class with so much versatility should not have direct counters?
@@JohnPikeman or maybe something that isn't a direct attack on the class. Those that are aren't really GOOD because they are one note and those classes have other ways to kill.
Presumably disguised spies being as fast as the class they're disguised as means making the default Spy faster would let you overtake your slower enemies.
@@SimoneBellomonte it's not specifically to catch other spies, he just pointed it out in combination with catching enemies like medics, and making catching enemies just easier in general.
One thing that always baffled me as a Medic main was the "teammates automatically call for help when injured" advanced setting making disguised enemy spies do that as well. I've lost count of how many times I noticed a "teammate" suddenly getting injured from random splash damage or stray bullets despite seemingly not losing any health and figured out the spy. I even killed several of them on accident just because I tried crossbow-ing an injured "teammate" I probably would have ignored without that setting on. It's just another thing that invalidates disguises.
Yeah it’s yet another buggy mechanic that fucks over spy. It’s a dead giveaway when the spy’s disguise is full health, but still has the health marker. Not only that, but the icon will appear from behind you if a spy decloaks. It’s saved me many times.
Adding to disguises and health, there's also the whole thing with the healthbar not changing accordingly if you disguise as someone with a weapon that reduces the max HP (such as Kunai). People seem to consider it a feature at this point, but I feel like it's just another bug no one bothered fixing.
I mean disguising works if they max their health, draw little attention to themselves and act like the class it’ll work but if your a beginner good luck with that
Sniper is poorly designed in a way that makes him too good. Spy is the complete opposite. Which makes it all the more baffling that Spy's weapons got nerfed far more often than Sniper's.
Snipers are more normalized in the FPS space, so getting killed when there's no real counter by a sniper doesn't tip those who are used to snipers off as much. Spy on the other hand is unusual for FPS games, so, he comes off as more bullshit than he is to players more used to other games.
Because a lot of spies' weapons make him into a sniper that could get behind you. You do good damage at base and you can cloak and get behind enemies to shoot them in the back, this will kill anyone with low sensitivity. If someone has max sensitivity they still have to turn, spot you, and shoot you and you somehow miss a few shots. This leaves their back exposed to where your allies are and splits up the enemy force typically.
The only thing that makes Spy not a total joke is that he's the most fun stealth character I've seen in any FPS due to him having complete invisibility and his primary is actually decent in a fight. Poor guy needs more buffs though, playing him competitively was a nightmare.
His primary is absolutely cracked, stock revolver can easily 1v1 medics, engis, scouts, snipers, and even other spies, it could kill every class mid-far range in a 1v1 lol Especially if the opponent underestimates your revolver
@@LaVitr_e Yeah, but if your opponent actually has a functioning brain and knows how to dodge and hit his shots then you are kinda screwed, but for self-defense and picking low-health targets it does wonders, it is consistency in its prime
Something kind of interesting I would like to note about the "anti-buildings" idea, is that after jungle inferno, there was going to be an engineer versus spy update that was planned (and then got scrapped as the TF team just kind of died) He was going to get "spy traps" that were going to be disguise kit replacement(s) (I'm not actually sure if there was going to be one spy trap PDA, for a bunch of them for different individual spy traps)
Imo a Spy is only as good as the rest of their team. No spy is good enough to solo a competent enemy team. I think Spy is best when actively communicating and coordinating with their team, relaying information, going after backstabs at specific times, and waiting till your team attacks to sap a sentry etc. The reason Spy is so wishy-washy is because he's a cooperation reliant class, in a game where most players dont cooperate with each other
While that is true, spy does not need THAT much coordination, he just needs for the enemy to be distracted and like one player from your team spamming shots from a distance is enough. Or spy can just kill unaware enemies. But yes, spy does heavily rely on his team (but medic does so the most).
That can be said with every class though, They all do better when communicating and coordinating. Cooperation alone won't bring spy up to the level of other classes.
@@GiRR007 It will kinda, tell me its not easier to do a push when the Engineer wrangling his Sentry is dead and his Sentry is sapped, even if the Spy died after that, your team was able to push the other team easily after that, and being able to know things like which opponents are retiring or where are the ambushes is really useful
@@leonel392 It brings spy up but as I said teamwork brings ALL the classes up. So if you apply that teamwork rule to all the classes it doesn't bring spy up to them, really any of them. He can be used, but everything in the game can be used, but theres a level of performance that is preferred.
@@GiRR007 Yeah. But Spy is a pickup class, and even the worst Spy will be able to kill someone before dying, even if you tell a Scout to kill a Medic, he sometimes just can't, but Spy can make the key pick for the win, is like telling a Medic to use Uber, a few words can do wonders when you are a support class
2 sapper ideas that i've come up with that i think would be good are 1; a sapper that takes longer to remove and is really quiet and doesn't notify the engie but saps the building really slowly, and 2; a sapper that can be removed in 1 hit and is really noisy so the engie will most definitely hear, but it very quickly hijacks the building to be on you teams side (eg. with a sentry it would fire randomly in various directions occasionally shooting enemies) before exploding and destroying the building (likely with a long cooldown afterwards)
Sapper replacement: A camera that replaces the sapper. While it is deployed and the spy is decloaked any enemies with line of sight to the spy will have wallhacks turned on for the enemy team. Call it Peeping le peu or something.
Spy may be a weaker class, but you’d be hard pressed to find any players in the very top of the Highlander leagues who would say he isn’t incredibly powerful in the top levels of play. Granted he has lots of very harsh things working against him, and his skill ceiling is easily the highest in the game, but being able to drop medics, or snipers or collect information are all vital and interesting
He can be powerful like that but that gameplay really only emerges in the very top levels of play, and I personally don’t think trickle down balance works Too good for a silly goofy game like tf2. I want to have some fun as a sneaky guy in a shoot man game, and spy underperforms at that level a bit
I think you'd find alot of Highlander players who would say spy isnt powerful in top levels. If anything his problems get expanded upon at high levels. He really is relegated to being an info gatherer. Even when it comes to sniper and medics.
13:10 _There's still things valve could do to immediately make spy better. Take some of his items and make them more useful or stronger than they are. That would be a great direction to take him._ What an incredibly enlightening and thought provoking piece of feedback on spys kit.
My first thoughts: -Le Trange (?) hits gives one point, per point the Spy avoids a debuff. (Madmilk, piss, afterburn, and so on.) -Enforcer hits gives one point, per point the Spy avoids damage while disguised.
@@Flamme-Sanabi that’s a bit overturned. A spy could abuse that very easily. There would need to be a cap on the points but I also don’t think it’s a great to make spy tankier for playing less risky. Spies would have the dead ringer and just range everyone to become unstoppable. A better alternative would be to give him a slight speed boost of some kind, like the baby face. He would be able to finally catch medics and other spies, maybe even scouts. Make the points degrade over time so he is forced to play aggressively if he wants to take full advantage of this.
@@Flamme-Sanabi I feel like the L'eTranger is fine as it is, that cloak drain rate reduction is a life saver. It comes especially in handy when using the YER, which is easily my favorite and IMO the most powerful knife. The Enforcer on the other hand needs to be changed as right now its god awful. The extra damage it deals when disguised only works once before you have to redisguise which doesn't help a whole lot. The penetrating bullets can be helpful *sometimes* but it almost never comes into use for me. I like your idea for the L'eTranger but for the enforcer. Perhaps instead of it being a point based system its a meter that charges with saps, backstab, and revolver kills. Draining in chunks for things like Jarate and Mad milk, and rapidly draining for afterburn.
@@mildstrife "Too overtuned, would make spies too aggressive... On the other hand, make them faster, and give them decay, so they have to be more aggressive to maintain it" Fkin' make your mind up, dumb*ss. Do you want aggressive spies or not? :P
There is no other playable character in any game that has as muched nuanced balancing problems as spy does. He should be somewhat honored. The tremendously inconsistent factors with backstabs hurt him so much. The plethora of weapons and mechanics made specially to make spys job harder. The fragility of getting into the enemies base and getting a crucial kill. But spies job HAS to be hard. The ability to instantly kill someone has to be met with telegraphing and traceability. Otherwise spy becomes an unkillable, inevitable force. What i just realized is Demoknight is spy on steriods. He is sneaky, hard to kill, and unavoidably gets one good pick. His speed and strength allow for all of this. He can be a very overwhelming force and boadering on needing a nerf, but his effectiveness comes as long as people are willing to feed into him. Being careless and not taking into account that he can come in at any moment is what makes him so deadly.
I've always thought that giving spy a button that makes it look like he is shooting while in disguse would really help him with actually fooling people, maybe even if you want to go extra crazy imagine him fake healing someone as medic and being able to make it look like you have uber and telling the person you're healing "ubercharge ready" to make em push into their death.
honestly, I think spy doesn't need to be a god at acting, spychecking just needs to be more balanced. if you've ever been on a teamkill server, you'd know that spy actually does really well on those because all of a sudden if you shoot a teammate you could be causing detriment to your team.
rlly good video, loved the part where you showed the ragdoll definitively best part of the vid. I think you were talking about something like balance based on how many of each class are on a team or something but i was more focused on the spy dying over and over in funny pose that i cant rlly remember
@@42carlos Offense Engi is demonstrably worse than Defense engi and not to be rude, but in pubs lots of stuff can get lots of points that even if it's not the strongest loadout/gameplan. It's easier to do well against 12 uncoordinated randos than a Highlander team, or really even just a group of people who take the game semi-seriously and use mics
I think this goes back to how a "bad class" is defined. Are we talking poorly-designed? Badly-implemented? Unable to provide value? Because offense engie, while indeed worse than defense engie, is still probably better than spy to someone who believes that spy is just gambling. At least engie can provide value on everything that's not a roll through teles and dispensers.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy I don't know, uncletopia, while not comp, is a step up from pubs and definitely can't be compared to them. There's no arguing offense Engi is harder than defense Engi, but I feel like you give him too little credit. Wouldn't you rather have an Uncle Dane on offense over even a MRswipez? I'm probably biased since I main tbe class but even BLU engineer has way more consistency than a spy on all gamemodes, except maybe 5cp where the damn objective moves back and form every 3 seconds.
Fix backstab hitbox then buff revolver giving 100% accuracy and 10% less damage fall of and 10% more damage and make knife random crits when butter satbing
@@humanogaming5421 backstab hitbox is fine, what isn't is the lack of communication (server vs clientside stuff, models not showing hitbox properly, etc) all facestabs are actually backstabs because the spy is actually in a different spot than your client tells you at the time of backstab, or alternatively a spy's client could show them that you're facing them while your back is actually turned, or the spy's client could show your back turned while you're facing them, etc. The problem is that only spy mains who have put too much focus into trickstabs really understand how to play around this and most people just think "bullshit".
honestly, as a spy main, you're exactly correct. even being able to fake a reload without having to waste a bullet at the start of a round would be awesome.
I don't think fake reloading was intentionally programmed into the game, I think it's something that incidentally just worked that way and they left it in. The reason I suspect that is because if you mod the game to give Spy a weapon he's not supposed to have, like the sniper rifle or minigun, his disguise can actually perform the special actions related to those weapons (like scoping in or being revved up). In other words, your disguise mimics everything you do automatically. That means there's probably not any code that says "hey, make the disguise do a fake reload when you reload the revolver". It's just calling for the reload animation sequence on the disguise model because you reloaded, and if there is one for that weapon then it will perform it. Long story short, it makes more sense why you have to waste a shot to do it if you consider the possibility that it might not have ever been an intentional feature in the first place. It's a silly restriction that's there out of technicality, not by design.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with what's being put out here. I don't disagree that spy is weak or that he needs more tools, because he absolutely is and does, but I disagree that spy is solely a class for gamblers or that beating him is as simple as turning around. It seems to me that Spy at his peak is all about exploiting situations when the enemy can't turn around, situations where his one-shot is most effective, and situations where him being a nuisance distracts the team enough to pull them off of the objective. I believe that every match of TF2 ever played has moments like that -- it's up to the spy to find them. When I see a player say that spy is a class that is so easy to beat, all you have to do is turn around, I see either an uncreative spy player or someone who hasn't gone up against a superlative spy. The reason people play spy isn't just because backstab fun, although that's certainly part of it. The reason people play spy is the idea of succeeding despite stacked odds, fooling people with a mechanic that doesn't even let you pretend to shoot, and reading your opponent like a book. They aren't playing him because maybe this time they'll roll double sixes and the enemy team will all be ftps with their game muted.
honestly, I think just adding spy specific voice lines that play for everyone on your team would make it so much better. that way, mic or not, you can still relay specific information to your team, like: "sentry above, sentry left, sentry below, [x number] enemies"
1:24 ok i will not let french boi get these accusations! He clearly loves scout mom and he even called her "Ah, my little cauliflower" and also it is said that one of the biggest reason spy decided to join the tf2 team is to watch scout...and money of corse but he is there for scout till the moment he died
I'm a spy main, and when I see like someone saying that he hates spies, that means that there at least one spy in the world who has done well during at least one round.
I think the best way to play spy is what I call busy spy. It’s a cycle of get behind busy enemy group, kill one or two, retreat into enemy side to drain their resources (medkits/ammo) to recover, and then find a different busy enemy group to harass as the cycle continues. Spy has a huge problem where has lots of time doing nothing and this makes sure that you are always a net negative to the enemy. Most people are grouped up in comp so it’s harder but in casual you can absolutely stomp. And no I use pretty much stock other than a spycicle
Placable distractions is definitely a great idea, it would additionally let Spy bait people into positions where he can stab them rather than having to run around chasing people constantly.
Giving spy more supportive options sounds like a great idea. I've always thought of a couple things. >a debuff gun, this gun would bassically have 3 different debuff on enemies, maybe a tracking debuff, a mark for death and a mad milk debuff in turn it would have one clip and not do a lot of damage. >two slots for things like sappers and other utility that could be added to the Spy such as negative effect buildings ect. >Increase movement speed by a small amount and allow spy while holding down a button as a slower disguise run at normal speed. In general I think spy needs 1. More support options 2. More movement and escape tools. 3. More gameplay styles.
Maybe just something like: if he shoots your legs (or bottom in general) you move a little slower, if he shoots both in quick succession you are as good as dead, like the Natascha, that would make him even more important in teamfights, because he can just paralyze temporarily a Medic for the Sniper to get an easy kill. And for more gameplay strats, just bring the old Enforcer man
I had this idea of a gun that massively helps spy be more supportive: pick up health packs and ammo packs to charge health and metal bars shooting teammates will use up health and ammo and heal them and give metal to engineers shooting will not remove your disguise shooting enemies uses health and refills it on successful hit (like widowmaker) has a 33% damage penalty, and 100% accuracy fire speed is changed to fire speed that disguise is holding (will not be faster than stock revolver firerate though)
Some ideas for Spy weapons with what you said in this video in mind: New Revolver: Damage penalty (around -20%), Large clip penalty (maybe 1 or 2 bullets), +Guaranteed crits against the last enemy you hit with your melee weapon for x seconds. >Gives the spy a backup option when his target turns around last second. A nice alternative for the l'etranger for spies who just want to focus on the knife. New "Sappers": 1) Deploy a building. All enemies nearby the building (say the range of a dispenser, but through walls) are outlined to your team. [Costs 200 metal, can only have one present at a time] >A little niche for the spy to fill in chokes where stabs are too deadly. Have it make a noise so enemies can hunt it down. 2) Place a fake health kit. It appears like a normal health kit, but deals bleed damage for x seconds when picked up by an enemy (has a unique model to your own team). [Costs 100 metal, can have up to two out at a time] >Deception plays. Most players know where the health pickups are, so you could maybe change the level of the pickup by "rotating" the building (, or let them be Ammo packs instead). They deal bleed damage to dissuade you from placing them on top of real health packs. They'd probably end up being dropped in doorways, or around corners, but they can be destroyed by damage so... not 100% sure about this one. New "Disguise Kit": No disguises. +x% movement speed. (Maybe: Sentry range against you is halved) (The YER wouldn't disguise you) >What you said in the video, it'd let him catch people easier and also give gun spy more of a niche. I think this way is better than boosting his base stats, but either's fine really.
You mention the whole new PDA buff at the end, but I think that would make a better new unlock: Pros: Buff based on class choice: - Scout: +25% movement speed - Soldier: No immunity to damage knockback (for blast jumping and bullet surfing) - Pyro: Afterburn immunity (would probably require a Spy-cicle rework) - Demoman: +30% explosive resistance - Heavy: +100% bullet resistance - Engineer: Sappers have the reverse effect on friendly buildings - Medic: +5 healing per second - Sniper: Damage falloff immunity - Spy: Lets you pick which disguise opponents see you using Cons: -25 max health
Better idea for the Spy disguise: You move through enemies as though they're teammates, and gives a 'perfect' cloak which doesn't falter on physical contact with an enemy. This could potentially even allow you to teleport without telefragging as well
stop with the -health, just stop, spy has enough of that sht already, he need every HP he can get his hands on, and that medic bonus is USELESS if spy doesn't have 125 health, as he'd just get one-shotted by pretty much anything with only 100 health, so healing is worthless if he only has 100 health.... And besides, what's he gonna do if he also uses the kunai with this PDA item, huh? xD Instead, -50% cloak meter, meaning with improved disguises, spy will have less need of invisibility, so forcing him to be visible more to MAKE USE of his disguises, is probably a better choice, than nerfing his health and making the medic-bonus pointless.
I wish Spy had the ability to mimic class specific animations, like scoping, carrying buildings and even reving. wouldn't change that much, but at least the disguise kit would become less useless.
That bit about information gathering you mentioned is actually pretty interesting, i wonder if a spy relaying information while hiding via voice chat do your team was something the devs had in mind
Spy's true strength is the threat of his presence. The sheer possibility of getting instantly killed at any moment causes enough distraction & potential for psychological torture that Spy doesn't even need to be present to impact a team fight. The more the enemy is shooting at ghosts trying to find you, the less they're shooting your team.
it truly becomes something else when there's a Spy who preys on low health players. you think you're safe healing by a dispenser and suddenly you're dead.
Not really, the other classes present more presence and take space much better than spy. And its not like people need to shoot much to find and kill a spy anyway.
"A little iddy bitty tiny movement speed buff" It's funny because Spy already recieved just that buff. He use to run at 100%, which is the 'standard' speed (with Medics and Scouts pulling ahead). Then Valve in their infinite wisdom bumped Spy up to 107%, which is still slower than a Medic. It DOES allow him to trail the other 100% and slower classes, and also run away from them, albeit very slowly. Also sidenote, you called Scout disguises pointless? Let me tell you, throwing in some jumping really helps with that one.
i think a great addition for the spy is to allow him to pick up any weapon a teammate or enemy drops, but he cant reload the weapon after its clip runs out.
disguising allows for spy to act on quick confusion, it also negates knockback allowing stuff like criclestrafing more doable, as impossible as that shit is. Id argue that disguises like scout are usefull in the sense that you want people to run at you, easier to matador/circlestrafe stab, people are very aggressive when it comes to chasing a spy. Changing weapons like the enforcer, spycicle, and maybe adding a new cloak would be help spys limited playstyle tons, maybe a little health/speed boost would be great aswell. I honestly love spy as he is however, I love how difficult he is to play and how after insane amounts of time he can get to a point where that gamble is less and less risky. I love how difficult stuff like circlestrafing is and how unique he is to play. Great video btw, seeing a non spy mains view on this type of thing is very interesting.
Why is Your Final Reward so unpopular? Instant disguise, no sound, the body disappears, it's so easy to chain backstabs especially in casual lobbies where randoms don't communicate as much
17:20 So a sapper which makes enemy unbuffed instead of dealing damage, maybe it could reduce the damage of a sentry or the healing and ammo for a dispenser this -red tape recorder- sapper sounds like an interesting idea which im sure wont be dissapointing sompared to a sapper
Interesting buff idea for spy: If you press (toggle) or hold reload while uncloaked and disguised, you get your normal move speed. Because it's hard having to find a smart disguise that's not another spy, and having to cloak to get your movement speed back because most everyone else is slower than you
15:00 personally I think that type of thing would work really well with the Your Eternal Reward, especially since the your Eternal reward focuses on disguises more than the other weapons.
I think buffing Spy's overall health pool to 150 would be a great change. Spy has to work very hard to get kills - unlike Sniper, so I think a general +25 health would be a great start to balancing Spy.
Or even random crits removed from the game, that would also help. :] And also remove the wallhacks you get for a few seconds when you spawn, that would also help!
Blue engineer is. Like really important. Just build a teleporter and watch the difference a blue engineer can make. Teleporting 60 players directly to the front is a big fucking deal.
Involving the "anti sapper" idea you mentioned I'm pretty sure there was code found in the files showing that Valve experimented with a similar idea to that in the form of traps I don't remember it completely cuz it's been awhile since I heard about it, but basically it looks like they experimented with giving Spy an unlock that worked like Engineer's pda, that allowed Spy to place 4 different trap buildings, I forgot what most of them were, but I remember one being a bear trap I think I heard about this from a shounic video
the spy skill ceiling grows as time goes on and people learn the strats I think a decoy gun could work for spy, makes a sound or plaves a fake modep to direct enemy attention
"just turn around" - as a heavy, when youre having a fight with other heavy, when a slight misaim will mean they will do more damage and you will die before you do? its like the main part of spy gameplay, you look for enemy to be distracted by your teammates. they check their back all they want when coming from spawn but they cant do that in the immediate danger of being two shotted by another foe. have you mentioned this even once in this longass video?
Think of it like this... it's about the same as a demoman, or, a soldier, showing up, and damaging you, making you lose the previous 1v1 with the enemy heavy. You're being 2v1'd, and as such, you SHOULD lose, anyway. Basically, what you're saying is not really an argument... It doesn't imply that spies are unfair or anything, it just implies that you lose that fight, because it's not a 1v1, anymore, it's a 2v1. :P That's why the guy in the video doesn't have to mention it, it's kind of a no-brainer.
If spy rewards were increased that wouldnt even fix his problems unfortunately, as when he got those rewards it would still be wildly inconsistent and the spy still wouldnt have much agency. Not to mention how much more annoying it would be for other people. So if anything its the risk that needs to be changed to be less , giving the spy more agency and consistency.
I would argue that making spy into a nuisance would be pretty good move Usually his buffs were turning him into glass cannon with multiple lives. But if instead he was able to sabotage things more instead of killing other players, that would be fun. Less lethal and more disruptive
@@GiRR007 There are good kinds of annoying and bad kinds of annoying. Pyro constantly killing you with Phlog is bad annoying, but Pyro constantly killing you with your own reflects is good annoying. Basically, if annoyance puts you in position where you can be annoyed at your own shortcomings, that's good. But if it makes you annoyed at random unbalanced thing, that's bad. So, if we will turn spy into immortal mix of scout and sniper like Valve accidentally did many times, that's bad annoying. But if we instead give Spy utilities to give disadvantages to enemy team, disadvantages that would be impactful, but only work if players aren't dealing with them as soon as possible, that would be annoying good. Of course, for that to be annoying good, it would have to be well balanced so it wouldn't be too oppressive
@@nihili4196 When it comes to how spy was with the old amby it was at least respectable since you know the spy had to be good with the weapon to have killed you. If spy was given more "utility" it would have to be at the cost of his more lethal options as well as being easier to use than said lethal options for it to be effective. So this would make spy more annoying to fight since now he is interfering with the gameplay of others with less risk . Most people would prefer to just die than get messed with by a spy that's now harder to kill so they would see it as the bad kind of annoying. By default it would just be more obnoxious to play against, and since you arent getting kills as the spy it would feel less fun to play. Despite spy being labeled a support he really isnt, hes an aggressive type of pick class similar to scout, just weaker in combat.
The less risky option was called the Ambassador. When going for a stab would be suicidal, Spy used to have a skill based way to contribute to fights, or pick players off from an unexpected angle. Of course, Valve had to nerf this after so many years of it being in the game with no one complaining, while also leaving garbage like the Scorch Shot and Diamondback in, before they stopped bothering to balance the game altogether.
I think one thing that could work well for the Spy is the option of a sort of subclass revolving around information gathering. This would be a more support style subclass where instead of fishing for backstabs you would get information on the enemy team to relay back to your own team. For example, Spy Camera, a new 'sapper' that instead of sapping buildings lets Spy take pictures of enemies that gives you and your team wallhacks of this one specific enemy for a brief period of time, and will give you assists if a teammate kills them during this time. Could also add something like gaining cloak or brief mini crits for each assist you get with it. Or perhaps a new 'cloak watch' that instead of cloaking you gives ONLY you wallhacks of enemies within a certain radius of yourself. Obviously it would have a meter so continous use would drain it, but allow you to tell your team where important targets are and what not. Also think it would be cool if an item like this was in the form of a compass. A way for the Spy to check which classes the enemy is using. This could be a stand alone item, or an idea I had is make it so the disguise kit only lets you disguise as classes that are on the enemy team. For example, if they don't have any scouts you can't disugise as a scout, but that also means you know they have no scouts. Could help your team plot out what classes your team will use, what loadouts to use, and what to look out for. Final idea I had was an item, perhaps another 'sapper' that lets you listen in on the enemy team's voice chat and team text chat. Spy is really the only class that gets hard countered by literal voice chat, so a way for Spy to listen in and hear if someone is calling him out or not to better decide to pursue a stab or retreat would be nice. Not to mention being able to listen for coordinated team pushes and similar such things. Just some ideas I had. Feel free to critique
whoever says BLU engi is the worst class never played tf2 more than twice in their life widely known that teleporters and dispensers can win or lose you a game
17:45 I like the idea of sapper unlocks being just any kind of placable gadget is cool. Also making it destroyable as well as auto destructing works both thematically and gameplay wise. I myself like the idea of a sapper that when placed changes the team of buildings like a virus and destroys the building at the same time destroying faster the more it's used. Or perhaps places a tracker that shows the location of enemies in its radius through walls but not spies. Or when placed if an enemy comes near it (it's cloaked but like partially visible like allied spies) it slowly drains that enemy's clip for a set amount also being damage from when that enemy takes damage or picks up ammo.
Spy has to jump through a million different hoops to get his insta-kill Sniper just has to stand at the end of a sightline and wait for you to step into his field of view.
The problem with spies are the players, and they are little selfish pricks who refuse to learn to play more patiently and think any rush to kills will get them reward. It's all about timing and positioning, relying on team to to make moves that distract enemies the most. Simply by existing, you cause the enemies to panic and constantly checking back, which also lets whole enemy team guard down and that also benefit team a lot. Most common mistake is that spy assumed to be pick class, while it's an infiltration class, a spy, that can do sabotage. And, yes, going invisible to infiltrate enemy team to communicate all their movement is actually what spy can be very useful for and benefit the teammates, after all it's a SPY class, and it's a TEAM fortress game where each class has their own class role you assign to in order to help the TEAM. Spy is already fast enough, especially after a buff, any further buff would make spy just become a hard counter to pyros at this point since pyro has inferior ranged weapons and revolver is a hitscan that you can't dodge yet does fair amount of dps against single targer. For selfish little prick spies, there is dead ringer already that just makes escape plan basically effortless, no matter in what situation you get to. Given with his boosted speed buff, he's already pretty mobile to escape and strike as is, but dead ringer speed buff just makes it very cheap. Red tape recorder is good as it gives far greater benefit to the team to help finish, git gud. Saper is a good SUPPORT weapon, perfect one, to disable the main defense tool of enemy and let teammates finish the sentry, so homewrecker is alright, nobody uses it anyway. Also razorback saves sniper back when he's in safe place protected by either teammates or sentry, so shooting sniper with revolver will leave you dead before you land another shoot, it's more of a tool against salty spy players who switch to spy after getting dominated by a sniper, and it helps. If anything, spy could use more consistent backstab that doesn't fuck you up due to netcode, which becomes a big problem on servers with ping above 50. Regardless how good you're at spy, this gonna fuck you up, so rework knife to automatically do backstab by just holding M1 button and having a back near you would help, even though that may sound cheesy but that's how games like Dark Messiah multiplayer turn Assassin class pretty useful in multiplayer, even though he has smaller angle for back. There is also facestab problem that needs addressing, which is a poor game design where by mere moving camera a bit too left or right to the foe can make you do facestab, which should be fixed by having geometric location checking on the map that would prevent you to do cheap kills if you're not actually aiming at the enemy as you should do.
I love the feeling of truly fooling a player with a disguise, especially because it’s hard to do. The art of perfect evasion and deception, we live for it!
as a spy main this basicly rounded up my thoughts on spy this is a amazing video thank you for making it. Also think it would be cool if spy had a wepon like demomans boots for his primary to allow trickstabing spys a more viable way of playing 👍
As Spy main, i can say that Spy for me feels the most rewarding BECAUSE of how weak he is. All odds are against you YET you still can outsmart your enemy and defeat them.
I have long since had an idea for a different disguise kit, one that would force spychecks from classes without effects (ie milk fire) harder. Basically the dowsides are you can't be disguised while invisible and disguising takes longer (yes ik its vague but it doesn't have to be specific you get the general idea). But the upsides would be that enemy player could walk through you like you were on their team. This would also make heavy disguises actually viable since people wouldn't think and you actually could land the stab. I believe the concept is good but their should probably be different downsides, I havent thought too hard about this as you probably can tell.
i actually think that spy being a bad class is a good thing, like neon in valorant theres something about playing the weakest class in the game that makes it so rewarding, i personally think that spy offers an option for players who want a greater challenge, while having something of a crazy high skill celling. I think that bad game design is when it overall negatively impacts the playing experience of many people, sniper is fundementally flawed as he contridicts rather than complements the flow of the game (which is why people complain about him) i think that while getting trickstabbed and facestab is frustrating spy is still overall a fun class to play, while not being too bad to play against great video
1:36 Disguises are not a tool for getting BEHIND the enemy, that’s the cloak. Which is weird as you said cloak in the same sentence. 2:45 That is the ‘paranoia management’ aspect of spy, something all good spies should take into account. Basically, it’s the act of not targeting a specific player too much so they don’t become spy-checking happy maniacs. 2:54 That is the reason spies have to be adaptable and have to get used to not being able to play their favourite class all the time if winning js a top priority 4:00 Maybe attempt a backstab at a target currently shooting or scoped in, if a heavy is dishing out supportive cover fire, they’re less likely to turn around randomly. 5:45 Use the YER. It still makes a noise but a substantially harder to detect one. 6:07 It lets you attack instantly any time, lets you attempt to get close to the enemy, even lets you fake the death of a teammate to stop the enemy suspecting a spy has entered their lines. 6:52 That is not a good illusion and relates back to my first statesment. 8:58 *Denies the existence of gun-spy*. 10:24 Valid point, but cloaking halves the duration of visible after-effects. Yes, I wrote a multiple hundred word essay about silly sneaky French-men. I’m a depressed spy main, what can I say?
Why are you implying that BLU engi is bad? EVERONE ALREADY DISGUISES ONLY AS SCOUT at least here on Brazil but still giving an speed boost to a scout disguise would just make spies not get better at disguising, i love when I rarely see a spie that has a brain
Fun fact: Spy actually moves SLOWER when disguised as classes slower than him. However, he does NOT move at Scout speed when disguised as a Scout, which is a problem because an observant player will notice this and shoot you for doing so.
If I could do anything, I would probably make it so enemies who are backstabbed cannot use talk or use chat until they respawn, and backstabbing someone is quieter. Would this be good for spy? Yes. Would it be good for the game? Probably not. But it would be cool, and that’s the only reason people play spy.
There was a weapon concept I saw a while back, the Mann Chop, that could short stun an enemy at the cost of the backstab. It's interesting. The weapons could receive a lot of good changes, and the disguise kit giving you small buffs depending on the class you disguise as could really boost Spy's survivability. I do like the idea of having sidegrade sappers that debuff enemies rather than sap buildings, and one way to prevent it from being overpowered is treat it like trying to stack the same types of ubers one one person: It won't change anything beyond what the debuff already does, but if you want to have three different spies using three different debuffs, it's kiiinda the enemy team's fault for not keeping up with the spies? Like, that's Spy's thing, sabotage. Stabbing important players and destroying buildings. Kiiinda his gig, but also the sappers could break after a period of time if it's really a problem, or break when another sapper is laid out by the same player. He could also get another weapon, a rapier, that replaces his knife. It'd probably be similar to Demoknight in a way, changing up how he's played, but in a *different* way. For example, the rapier could give the Spy the ability to 'parry' thus temporarily disabling an enemy's weapon(again, lending to the sabotage aspects of being a Spy), potentially cause short term bleed, have a movement, health, and attack speed buff/have a similar deal where he strikes three times very rapidly or something, all while removing his ability to backstab. Spy is a French "Gentleman". It'd totally match his aesthetic.
I really like this video and the discussion about it, as to your point about the pda problem, here’s the real answer that you pretty much alluded to, stop making it about the sapper; give spy new interesting and fun things to do, don’t let it be the sapper slot, let it be the spy gadget slot
A disguise kit that could let you fire fake shots from the weapon you’re holding or a watch that just lets you pass through enemies if disguised would be super cool
![[TF2] Kritz Always Sucked](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/H0wdj8A-bII/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Kritz Always Sucked](/img/tr.png)
![[Tf2] The Shotgun Difference](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lvPMTCDLO3w/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Tf2] And It's Worst Class](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ZmgTOYggTE/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Stun Wars](/img/n.gif)
ok but have you considered that going 5 and 20 is actually really fun because of the sheer dopamine content in those 5 killa
edit: oh shit it is gambling
The least gambling focused tf2 player:
At least you're not gambling on cases
I hate how a lot of weapon unlocks in the game are just "fuck spy in particular"
Same with pyro
@@JohnPikeman except Pyro is actually a strong class. powerjack, flare guns, airblast. Do you seriously think a class with so much versatility should not have direct counters?
@@dumbvillage9253 yes I know pyro is strong there is just items that resistant him. Honestly all the spy and pyro resist should be swapped with sniper
@@JohnPikeman or maybe something that isn't a direct attack on the class. Those that are aren't really GOOD because they are one note and those classes have other ways to kill.
the best example is the razor back where its sole purpose is to fuck spies over, it has no other uses besides not letting spies backstab
"Spy needs to be faster so he can catch other spies." I agree he needs to be faster, but what?
the spy paradox
Presumably disguised spies being as fast as the class they're disguised as means making the default Spy faster would let you overtake your slower enemies.
LOL'd out loud at this one
@@cornparade6874 If he’s as fast as the class disguised as, then what’s the point of buffing his speed specifically to catch other spies???
@@SimoneBellomonte it's not specifically to catch other spies, he just pointed it out in combination with catching enemies like medics, and making catching enemies just easier in general.
One thing that always baffled me as a Medic main was the "teammates automatically call for help when injured" advanced setting making disguised enemy spies do that as well. I've lost count of how many times I noticed a "teammate" suddenly getting injured from random splash damage or stray bullets despite seemingly not losing any health and figured out the spy. I even killed several of them on accident just because I tried crossbow-ing an injured "teammate" I probably would have ignored without that setting on. It's just another thing that invalidates disguises.
Yeah it’s yet another buggy mechanic that fucks over spy. It’s a dead giveaway when the spy’s disguise is full health, but still has the health marker. Not only that, but the icon will appear from behind you if a spy decloaks. It’s saved me many times.
Adding to disguises and health, there's also the whole thing with the healthbar not changing accordingly if you disguise as someone with a weapon that reduces the max HP (such as Kunai). People seem to consider it a feature at this point, but I feel like it's just another bug no one bothered fixing.
I mean disguising works if they max their health, draw little attention to themselves and act like the class it’ll work but if your a beginner good luck with that
Spy would be a better class if the Rocket Jumper were a Spy primary
yes, but no
yes, but no
No, it should go on the sapper slot
@@DeepFriedWxffles no, but no
yes
Sniper is poorly designed in a way that makes him too good. Spy is the complete opposite. Which makes it all the more baffling that Spy's weapons got nerfed far more often than Sniper's.
Snipers are more normalized in the FPS space, so getting killed when there's no real counter by a sniper doesn't tip those who are used to snipers off as much.
Spy on the other hand is unusual for FPS games, so, he comes off as more bullshit than he is to players more used to other games.
@@AmbrosiaPoly-yolkEgg i would prefer being punished for letting a spy behind me, than to be punished for entering a sniper sightline
@@dumbvillage9253 you're probably more used to TF2's dynamics then
@@dumbvillage9253 i would never be mad if a spy ever kills me, id prefer that than getting sniped
Because a lot of spies' weapons make him into a sniper that could get behind you.
You do good damage at base and you can cloak and get behind enemies to shoot them in the back, this will kill anyone with low sensitivity. If someone has max sensitivity they still have to turn, spot you, and shoot you and you somehow miss a few shots.
This leaves their back exposed to where your allies are and splits up the enemy force typically.
The only thing that makes Spy not a total joke is that he's the most fun stealth character I've seen in any FPS due to him having complete invisibility and his primary is actually decent in a fight. Poor guy needs more buffs though, playing him competitively was a nightmare.
HL? what season.
@@basileusbasil4041 UGC seasons 6 through 9 I believe, to give you an idea on how long ago it was.
@@Charlieweddle yooo
His primary is absolutely cracked, stock revolver can easily 1v1 medics, engis, scouts, snipers, and even other spies, it could kill every class mid-far range in a 1v1 lol
Especially if the opponent underestimates your revolver
@@LaVitr_e Yeah, but if your opponent actually has a functioning brain and knows how to dodge and hit his shots then you are kinda screwed, but for self-defense and picking low-health targets it does wonders, it is consistency in its prime
Something kind of interesting I would like to note about the "anti-buildings" idea, is that after jungle inferno, there was going to be an engineer versus spy update that was planned (and then got scrapped as the TF team just kind of died)
He was going to get "spy traps" that were going to be disguise kit replacement(s) (I'm not actually sure if there was going to be one spy trap PDA, for a bunch of them for different individual spy traps)
Different PDAs with different traps would have been interesting, tbh.
I was honestly expecting an Engineer VS. Medic update where both got weapons to spice up their rather consistent playstyles
Would probably end up being less fun to use and less fun to fight against, just rewards spies being cloak and dagger cowards
source?? I'd LOVE to see what tf2 updates lost
@@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257tyler mcvicker video
Imo a Spy is only as good as the rest of their team. No spy is good enough to solo a competent enemy team. I think Spy is best when actively communicating and coordinating with their team, relaying information, going after backstabs at specific times, and waiting till your team attacks to sap a sentry etc.
The reason Spy is so wishy-washy is because he's a cooperation reliant class, in a game where most players dont cooperate with each other
While that is true, spy does not need THAT much coordination, he just needs for the enemy to be distracted and like one player from your team spamming shots from a distance is enough. Or spy can just kill unaware enemies. But yes, spy does heavily rely on his team (but medic does so the most).
That can be said with every class though, They all do better when communicating and coordinating. Cooperation alone won't bring spy up to the level of other classes.
@@GiRR007 It will kinda, tell me its not easier to do a push when the Engineer wrangling his Sentry is dead and his Sentry is sapped, even if the Spy died after that, your team was able to push the other team easily after that, and being able to know things like which opponents are retiring or where are the ambushes is really useful
@@leonel392 It brings spy up but as I said teamwork brings ALL the classes up. So if you apply that teamwork rule to all the classes it doesn't bring spy up to them, really any of them. He can be used, but everything in the game can be used, but theres a level of performance that is preferred.
@@GiRR007 Yeah. But Spy is a pickup class, and even the worst Spy will be able to kill someone before dying, even if you tell a Scout to kill a Medic, he sometimes just can't, but Spy can make the key pick for the win, is like telling a Medic to use Uber, a few words can do wonders when you are a support class
Kaluka: "Spy is the worst class"
also Kaluka: *Shows some of the most badass/best gameplay of spy I have ever seen*
2 sapper ideas that i've come up with that i think would be good are 1; a sapper that takes longer to remove and is really quiet and doesn't notify the engie but saps the building really slowly, and 2; a sapper that can be removed in 1 hit and is really noisy so the engie will most definitely hear, but it very quickly hijacks the building to be on you teams side (eg. with a sentry it would fire randomly in various directions occasionally shooting enemies) before exploding and destroying the building (likely with a long cooldown afterwards)
Sapper replacement: A camera that replaces the sapper. While it is deployed and the spy is decloaked any enemies with line of sight to the spy will have wallhacks turned on for the enemy team. Call it Peeping le peu or something.
so the spy camera from tc2, gotcha
Y e s
why not allow spy to pick up any weapon a teammate or enemy drops, but at the cost of not being able to reload it once the clip runs out.
an alternative knife that causes a person to lose any meter they have and all their ammo upon backstab instead of killing them.
@@Sleepy_CabbageALL their ammo seems overkill, maybe make it so ammo gets used up 2x or 3x faster
Spy may be a weaker class, but you’d be hard pressed to find any players in the very top of the Highlander leagues who would say he isn’t incredibly powerful in the top levels of play. Granted he has lots of very harsh things working against him, and his skill ceiling is easily the highest in the game, but being able to drop medics, or snipers or collect information are all vital and interesting
He can be powerful like that but that gameplay really only emerges in the very top levels of play, and I personally don’t think trickle down balance works Too good for a silly goofy game like tf2. I want to have some fun as a sneaky guy in a shoot man game, and spy underperforms at that level a bit
I think you'd find alot of Highlander players who would say spy isnt powerful in top levels. If anything his problems get expanded upon at high levels. He really is relegated to being an info gatherer. Even when it comes to sniper and medics.
I mean he's still useful but he's definitely on the weaker side the better and better you get. He's probably one of the best classes in lower divs tho
Spy isn't that big of thing in high level, pyros do their job ans everyone is, in general, more spy aware. SNIPERS however... that's a different story
This is such a wack opinion. Wasting a team slot (of your 6, mind you) on spy is ALMOST never a good trade in competitive.
13:10 _There's still things valve could do to immediately make spy better. Take some of his items and make them more useful or stronger than they are. That would be a great direction to take him._
What an incredibly enlightening and thought provoking piece of feedback on spys kit.
My first thoughts:
-Le Trange (?) hits gives one point, per point the Spy avoids a debuff. (Madmilk, piss, afterburn, and so on.)
-Enforcer hits gives one point, per point the Spy avoids damage while disguised.
@@Flamme-Sanabi that’s a bit overturned. A spy could abuse that very easily. There would need to be a cap on the points but I also don’t think it’s a great to make spy tankier for playing less risky. Spies would have the dead ringer and just range everyone to become unstoppable.
A better alternative would be to give him a slight speed boost of some kind, like the baby face. He would be able to finally catch medics and other spies, maybe even scouts. Make the points degrade over time so he is forced to play aggressively if he wants to take full advantage of this.
@@Flamme-Sanabi I feel like the L'eTranger is fine as it is, that cloak drain rate reduction is a life saver. It comes especially in handy when using the YER, which is easily my favorite and IMO the most powerful knife.
The Enforcer on the other hand needs to be changed as right now its god awful. The extra damage it deals when disguised only works once before you have to redisguise which doesn't help a whole lot. The penetrating bullets can be helpful *sometimes* but it almost never comes into use for me. I like your idea for the L'eTranger but for the enforcer. Perhaps instead of it being a point based system its a meter that charges with saps, backstab, and revolver kills. Draining in chunks for things like Jarate and Mad milk, and rapidly draining for afterburn.
@@Flamme-Sanabi Interesting idea... Pyro would be the only one, along with heavy i guess, to quickly remove disguise-points. :O
@@mildstrife "Too overtuned, would make spies too aggressive... On the other hand, make them faster, and give them decay, so they have to be more aggressive to maintain it"
Fkin' make your mind up, dumb*ss. Do you want aggressive spies or not? :P
There is no other playable character in any game that has as muched nuanced balancing problems as spy does. He should be somewhat honored.
The tremendously inconsistent factors with backstabs hurt him so much.
The plethora of weapons and mechanics made specially to make spys job harder.
The fragility of getting into the enemies base and getting a crucial kill.
But spies job HAS to be hard. The ability to instantly kill someone has to be met with telegraphing and traceability. Otherwise spy becomes an unkillable, inevitable force.
What i just realized is Demoknight is spy on steriods. He is sneaky, hard to kill, and unavoidably gets one good pick. His speed and strength allow for all of this. He can be a very overwhelming force and boadering on needing a nerf, but his effectiveness comes as long as people are willing to feed into him. Being careless and not taking into account that he can come in at any moment is what makes him so deadly.
I've always thought that giving spy a button that makes it look like he is shooting while in disguse would really help him with actually fooling people, maybe even if you want to go extra crazy imagine him fake healing someone as medic and being able to make it look like you have uber and telling the person you're healing "ubercharge ready" to make em push into their death.
honestly, I think spy doesn't need to be a god at acting, spychecking just needs to be more balanced.
if you've ever been on a teamkill server, you'd know that spy actually does really well on those because all of a sudden if you shoot a teammate you could be causing detriment to your team.
rlly good video, loved the part where you showed the ragdoll definitively best part of the vid.
I think you were talking about something like balance based on how many of each class are on a team or something but i was more focused on the spy dying over and over in funny pose that i cant rlly remember
Surely crippling microphone failures will not occur halfway into production
Right
Why would blu engi be bad? I literally got 76 points in a single match as offense Engi on uncletopia once lol
@@42carlos Offense Engi is demonstrably worse than Defense engi and not to be rude, but in pubs lots of stuff can get lots of points that even if it's not the strongest loadout/gameplan. It's easier to do well against 12 uncoordinated randos than a Highlander team, or really even just a group of people who take the game semi-seriously and use mics
The waffle house has found its new host.
I think this goes back to how a "bad class" is defined. Are we talking poorly-designed? Badly-implemented? Unable to provide value?
Because offense engie, while indeed worse than defense engie, is still probably better than spy to someone who believes that spy is just gambling. At least engie can provide value on everything that's not a roll through teles and dispensers.
@@kalukagamingfellaguy I don't know, uncletopia, while not comp, is a step up from pubs and definitely can't be compared to them. There's no arguing offense Engi is harder than defense Engi, but I feel like you give him too little credit. Wouldn't you rather have an Uncle Dane on offense over even a MRswipez? I'm probably biased since I main tbe class but even BLU engineer has way more consistency than a spy on all gamemodes, except maybe 5cp where the damn objective moves back and form every 3 seconds.
Turning to face the Spy is good and all until he facestabs you.
Fix backstab hitbox then buff revolver giving 100% accuracy and 10% less damage fall of and 10% more damage and make knife random crits when butter satbing
@@humanogaming5421 backstab hitbox is fine, what isn't is the lack of communication (server vs clientside stuff, models not showing hitbox properly, etc)
all facestabs are actually backstabs because the spy is actually in a different spot than your client tells you at the time of backstab, or alternatively a spy's client could show them that you're facing them while your back is actually turned, or the spy's client could show your back turned while you're facing them, etc. The problem is that only spy mains who have put too much focus into trickstabs really understand how to play around this and most people just think "bullshit".
@@dr.infernous9342 yeah You are right
honestly, as a spy main, you're exactly correct.
even being able to fake a reload without having to waste a bullet at the start of a round would be awesome.
I don't think fake reloading was intentionally programmed into the game, I think it's something that incidentally just worked that way and they left it in. The reason I suspect that is because if you mod the game to give Spy a weapon he's not supposed to have, like the sniper rifle or minigun, his disguise can actually perform the special actions related to those weapons (like scoping in or being revved up). In other words, your disguise mimics everything you do automatically. That means there's probably not any code that says "hey, make the disguise do a fake reload when you reload the revolver". It's just calling for the reload animation sequence on the disguise model because you reloaded, and if there is one for that weapon then it will perform it.
Long story short, it makes more sense why you have to waste a shot to do it if you consider the possibility that it might not have ever been an intentional feature in the first place. It's a silly restriction that's there out of technicality, not by design.
16:02 I'm glad you have this great gameplay footage in the background, it adds to the video plus shows that you're good at spy.
Yep
I'm not sure I entirely agree with what's being put out here. I don't disagree that spy is weak or that he needs more tools, because he absolutely is and does, but I disagree that spy is solely a class for gamblers or that beating him is as simple as turning around.
It seems to me that Spy at his peak is all about exploiting situations when the enemy can't turn around, situations where his one-shot is most effective, and situations where him being a nuisance distracts the team enough to pull them off of the objective. I believe that every match of TF2 ever played has moments like that -- it's up to the spy to find them.
When I see a player say that spy is a class that is so easy to beat, all you have to do is turn around, I see either an uncreative spy player or someone who hasn't gone up against a superlative spy.
The reason people play spy isn't just because backstab fun, although that's certainly part of it. The reason people play spy is the idea of succeeding despite stacked odds, fooling people with a mechanic that doesn't even let you pretend to shoot, and reading your opponent like a book. They aren't playing him because maybe this time they'll roll double sixes and the enemy team will all be ftps with their game muted.
As a spy main i agree
@@imigratingbox funny, I figured you'd main soldier
honestly, I think just adding spy specific voice lines that play for everyone on your team would make it so much better. that way, mic or not, you can still relay specific information to your team, like: "sentry above, sentry left, sentry below, [x number] enemies"
1:24 ok i will not let french boi get these accusations! He clearly loves scout mom and he even called her "Ah, my little cauliflower" and also it is said that one of the biggest reason spy decided to join the tf2 team is to watch scout...and money of corse but he is there for scout till the moment he died
I'm a spy main, and when I see like someone saying that he hates spies, that means that there at least one spy in the world who has done well during at least one round.
I think the best way to play spy is what I call busy spy. It’s a cycle of get behind busy enemy group, kill one or two, retreat into enemy side to drain their resources (medkits/ammo) to recover, and then find a different busy enemy group to harass as the cycle continues. Spy has a huge problem where has lots of time doing nothing and this makes sure that you are always a net negative to the enemy. Most people are grouped up in comp so it’s harder but in casual you can absolutely stomp.
And no I use pretty much stock other than a spycicle
14:43 "that way spy could actually catch other spies" as if only YOU got the buff😂😂
Placable distractions is definitely a great idea, it would additionally let Spy bait people into positions where he can stab them rather than having to run around chasing people constantly.
valve actually did have a scrapped set of "anti-buildings" that were found in the code leak a few years back
this is why valve should hire me as their chief guy-who-complains-at-the-office
@@kalukagamingfellaguy I don't think anyone would really complain about your voice either. :P
@@kalukagamingfellaguy then you can complain to the potted plant currently making tf2
Wow, this is actually the best video I've ever watched as a spy main, very cool
Giving spy more supportive options sounds like a great idea. I've always thought of a couple things.
>a debuff gun, this gun would bassically have 3 different debuff on enemies, maybe a tracking debuff, a mark for death and a mad milk debuff in turn it would have one clip and not do a lot of damage.
>two slots for things like sappers and other utility that could be added to the Spy such as negative effect buildings ect.
>Increase movement speed by a small amount and allow spy while holding down a button as a slower disguise run at normal speed.
In general I think spy needs 1. More support options 2. More movement and escape tools. 3. More gameplay styles.
Maybe just something like: if he shoots your legs (or bottom in general) you move a little slower, if he shoots both in quick succession you are as good as dead, like the Natascha, that would make him even more important in teamfights, because he can just paralyze temporarily a Medic for the Sniper to get an easy kill.
And for more gameplay strats, just bring the old Enforcer man
an alternative knife that causes a person to lose any meter they have and all their ammo upon backstab instead of killing them.
I had this idea of a gun that massively helps spy be more supportive:
pick up health packs and ammo packs to charge health and metal bars
shooting teammates will use up health and ammo and heal them and give metal to engineers
shooting will not remove your disguise
shooting enemies uses health and refills it on successful hit (like widowmaker)
has a 33% damage penalty, and 100% accuracy
fire speed is changed to fire speed that disguise is holding (will not be faster than stock revolver firerate though)
Some ideas for Spy weapons with what you said in this video in mind:
New Revolver: Damage penalty (around -20%), Large clip penalty (maybe 1 or 2 bullets), +Guaranteed crits against the last enemy you hit with your melee weapon for x seconds.
>Gives the spy a backup option when his target turns around last second. A nice alternative for the l'etranger for spies who just want to focus on the knife.
New "Sappers":
1) Deploy a building. All enemies nearby the building (say the range of a dispenser, but through walls) are outlined to your team. [Costs 200 metal, can only have one present at a time]
>A little niche for the spy to fill in chokes where stabs are too deadly. Have it make a noise so enemies can hunt it down.
2) Place a fake health kit. It appears like a normal health kit, but deals bleed damage for x seconds when picked up by an enemy (has a unique model to your own team). [Costs 100 metal, can have up to two out at a time]
>Deception plays. Most players know where the health pickups are, so you could maybe change the level of the pickup by "rotating" the building (, or let them be Ammo packs instead). They deal bleed damage to dissuade you from placing them on top of real health packs. They'd probably end up being dropped in doorways, or around corners, but they can be destroyed by damage so... not 100% sure about this one.
New "Disguise Kit": No disguises. +x% movement speed. (Maybe: Sentry range against you is halved) (The YER wouldn't disguise you)
>What you said in the video, it'd let him catch people easier and also give gun spy more of a niche. I think this way is better than boosting his base stats, but either's fine really.
You mention the whole new PDA buff at the end, but I think that would make a better new unlock:
Pros:
Buff based on class choice:
- Scout: +25% movement speed
- Soldier: No immunity to damage knockback (for blast jumping and bullet surfing)
- Pyro: Afterburn immunity (would probably require a Spy-cicle rework)
- Demoman: +30% explosive resistance
- Heavy: +100% bullet resistance
- Engineer: Sappers have the reverse effect on friendly buildings
- Medic: +5 healing per second
- Sniper: Damage falloff immunity
- Spy: Lets you pick which disguise opponents see you using
Cons:
-25 max health
Better idea for the Spy disguise: You move through enemies as though they're teammates, and gives a 'perfect' cloak which doesn't falter on physical contact with an enemy. This could potentially even allow you to teleport without telefragging as well
@@williamnixon3994 This would cadue alot of problems with stabs
stop with the -health, just stop, spy has enough of that sht already, he need every HP he can get his hands on, and that medic bonus is USELESS if spy doesn't have 125 health, as he'd just get one-shotted by pretty much anything with only 100 health, so healing is worthless if he only has 100 health.... And besides, what's he gonna do if he also uses the kunai with this PDA item, huh? xD
Instead, -50% cloak meter, meaning with improved disguises, spy will have less need of invisibility, so forcing him to be visible more to MAKE USE of his disguises, is probably a better choice, than nerfing his health and making the medic-bonus pointless.
PDA that removes spy's ability to disguise himself as a merc but adds the ability to disguise himself as a prop
prophunt, lmao. xD
I wish Spy had the ability to mimic class specific animations, like scoping, carrying buildings and even reving. wouldn't change that much, but at least the disguise kit would become less useless.
I couldn't take this video seriously when I realized him ragging on the L'etranger wasn't a meme and called for it to be reworked
It's an old video
That bit about information gathering you mentioned is actually pretty interesting, i wonder if a spy relaying information while hiding via voice chat do your team was something the devs had in mind
A throwable sapper that shows the enemys position is a cool idea
okay being able to unleash smoke bombs or poison gas as spy sounds super cool
Spy's true strength is the threat of his presence.
The sheer possibility of getting instantly killed at any moment causes enough distraction & potential for psychological torture that Spy doesn't even need to be present to impact a team fight.
The more the enemy is shooting at ghosts trying to find you, the less they're shooting your team.
it truly becomes something else when there's a Spy who preys on low health players. you think you're safe healing by a dispenser and suddenly you're dead.
Not really, the other classes present more presence and take space much better than spy. And its not like people need to shoot much to find and kill a spy anyway.
@@GiRR007 sounds like you can't play Spy very well
@@wrongtime9097 I think you are just overestimating what spy can do because all you play are pub games.
@@GiRR007 again, sounds like you suck at Spy
It‘s almost like… He was designed that way.
BLU Engineer has his moments, especially on payload offense
"A little iddy bitty tiny movement speed buff"
It's funny because Spy already recieved just that buff. He use to run at 100%, which is the 'standard' speed (with Medics and Scouts pulling ahead). Then Valve in their infinite wisdom bumped Spy up to 107%, which is still slower than a Medic. It DOES allow him to trail the other 100% and slower classes, and also run away from them, albeit very slowly.
Also sidenote, you called Scout disguises pointless? Let me tell you, throwing in some jumping really helps with that one.
i think a great addition for the spy is to allow him to pick up any weapon a teammate or enemy drops, but he cant reload the weapon after its clip runs out.
imagine direct hit spy
3:13 for Pyros you can use the Spy-cicle and/or the Dead Ringer
for overlapping sentries you can use the Your Eternal Reward or the Dead Ringer
BLU engie on payload at least has a job. To set up a sentry to pick off overextending RED players. He is the last line of defense basically
And teleporters win games
based vid
Thanks Wheezer from Manntreads vs. Mannmelter
disguising allows for spy to act on quick confusion, it also negates knockback allowing stuff like criclestrafing more doable, as impossible as that shit is. Id argue that disguises like scout are usefull in the sense that you want people to run at you, easier to matador/circlestrafe stab, people are very aggressive when it comes to chasing a spy. Changing weapons like the enforcer, spycicle, and maybe adding a new cloak would be help spys limited playstyle tons, maybe a little health/speed boost would be great aswell. I honestly love spy as he is however, I love how difficult he is to play and how after insane amounts of time he can get to a point where that gamble is less and less risky. I love how difficult stuff like circlestrafing is and how unique he is to play. Great video btw, seeing a non spy mains view on this type of thing is very interesting.
friendly fire would be an insane spy buff ngl
Why is Your Final Reward so unpopular? Instant disguise, no sound, the body disappears, it's so easy to chain backstabs especially in casual lobbies where randoms don't communicate as much
He did get a movement buff, though! he moves slightly faster then most normal movement speed classes!!!
17:20 So a sapper which makes enemy unbuffed instead of dealing damage, maybe it could reduce the damage of a sentry or the healing and ammo for a dispenser this -red tape recorder- sapper sounds like an interesting idea which im sure wont be dissapointing sompared to a sapper
Spy needs to be faster than Spy so Spy can catch up to Spy
Interesting buff idea for spy:
If you press (toggle) or hold reload while uncloaked and disguised, you get your normal move speed.
Because it's hard having to find a smart disguise that's not another spy, and having to cloak to get your movement speed back because most everyone else is slower than you
15:00 personally I think that type of thing would work really well with the Your Eternal Reward, especially since the your Eternal reward focuses on disguises more than the other weapons.
I think buffing Spy's overall health pool to 150 would be a great change. Spy has to work very hard to get kills - unlike Sniper, so I think a general +25 health would be a great start to balancing Spy.
That could be interesting, in all honesty.
@@mdbgamer556 no
increase spy speed so that he can catch up to other spies... hmmmmmmmmmmm
The game and spy in general would be greatly improved with friendly fire
Or even random crits removed from the game, that would also help. :]
And also remove the wallhacks you get for a few seconds when you spawn, that would also help!
You fix spy by turning on friendly fire
remember guys, always CLOAK before disguise, other wise chemtrails will be following you :)
blu engineer is good.
for instance :
" teleporter "
Blue engineer is. Like really important. Just build a teleporter and watch the difference a blue engineer can make. Teleporting 60 players directly to the front is a big fucking deal.
damn we really just gonna ignore the dead ringer the whole vid huh
2:57
Jontohil2: SPY HAS A GUN!
Amazing job keep them videos coming and you’ll go far on TH-cam 😊
Ty!
@@kalukagamingfellaguy your welcome
Involving the "anti sapper" idea you mentioned
I'm pretty sure there was code found in the files showing that Valve experimented with a similar idea to that in the form of traps
I don't remember it completely cuz it's been awhile since I heard about it, but basically it looks like they experimented with giving Spy an unlock that worked like Engineer's pda, that allowed Spy to place 4 different trap buildings, I forgot what most of them were, but I remember one being a bear trap
I think I heard about this from a shounic video
the spy skill ceiling grows as time goes on and people learn the strats
I think a decoy gun could work for spy, makes a sound or plaves a fake modep to direct enemy attention
13:54 THANK YOU MISTER, I LOVE TO SEE THAT SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME RECOGNIZED HOW RIDICULOUS THE HOMEWRECKER IS
Watching this TH-cam video on my shift at Northrop Grumman is the funniest shit ever dude, your scripting is golden 🖤
"just turn around" - as a heavy, when youre having a fight with other heavy, when a slight misaim will mean they will do more damage and you will die before you do? its like the main part of spy gameplay, you look for enemy to be distracted by your teammates. they check their back all they want when coming from spawn but they cant do that in the immediate danger of being two shotted by another foe. have you mentioned this even once in this longass video?
Think of it like this... it's about the same as a demoman, or, a soldier, showing up, and damaging you, making you lose the previous 1v1 with the enemy heavy.
You're being 2v1'd, and as such, you SHOULD lose, anyway.
Basically, what you're saying is not really an argument... It doesn't imply that spies are unfair or anything, it just implies that you lose that fight, because it's not a 1v1, anymore, it's a 2v1. :P
That's why the guy in the video doesn't have to mention it, it's kind of a no-brainer.
If spy rewards were increased that wouldnt even fix his problems unfortunately, as when he got those rewards it would still be wildly inconsistent and the spy still wouldnt have much agency. Not to mention how much more annoying it would be for other people.
So if anything its the risk that needs to be changed to be less , giving the spy more agency and consistency.
I would argue that making spy into a nuisance would be pretty good move
Usually his buffs were turning him into glass cannon with multiple lives. But if instead he was able to sabotage things more instead of killing other players, that would be fun. Less lethal and more disruptive
@@nihili4196 I dont think intentionally making something annoying would be a good thing. Its basically the opposite of fun.
@@GiRR007 There are good kinds of annoying and bad kinds of annoying.
Pyro constantly killing you with Phlog is bad annoying, but Pyro constantly killing you with your own reflects is good annoying.
Basically, if annoyance puts you in position where you can be annoyed at your own shortcomings, that's good. But if it makes you annoyed at random unbalanced thing, that's bad.
So, if we will turn spy into immortal mix of scout and sniper like Valve accidentally did many times, that's bad annoying.
But if we instead give Spy utilities to give disadvantages to enemy team, disadvantages that would be impactful, but only work if players aren't dealing with them as soon as possible, that would be annoying good.
Of course, for that to be annoying good, it would have to be well balanced so it wouldn't be too oppressive
@@nihili4196 When it comes to how spy was with the old amby it was at least respectable since you know the spy had to be good with the weapon to have killed you.
If spy was given more "utility" it would have to be at the cost of his more lethal options as well as being easier to use than said lethal options for it to be effective. So this would make spy more annoying to fight since now he is interfering with the gameplay of others with less risk . Most people would prefer to just die than get messed with by a spy that's now harder to kill so they would see it as the bad kind of annoying. By default it would just be more obnoxious to play against, and since you arent getting kills as the spy it would feel less fun to play. Despite spy being labeled a support he really isnt, hes an aggressive type of pick class similar to scout, just weaker in combat.
The less risky option was called the Ambassador. When going for a stab would be suicidal, Spy used to have a skill based way to contribute to fights, or pick players off from an unexpected angle. Of course, Valve had to nerf this after so many years of it being in the game with no one complaining, while also leaving garbage like the Scorch Shot and Diamondback in, before they stopped bothering to balance the game altogether.
11:24 I like how even you looked back at the demo probably in disbelief that was a "backstab"... Jesus that was a facestab
I think one thing that could work well for the Spy is the option of a sort of subclass revolving around information gathering. This would be a more support style subclass where instead of fishing for backstabs you would get information on the enemy team to relay back to your own team.
For example, Spy Camera, a new 'sapper' that instead of sapping buildings lets Spy take pictures of enemies that gives you and your team wallhacks of this one specific enemy for a brief period of time, and will give you assists if a teammate kills them during this time. Could also add something like gaining cloak or brief mini crits for each assist you get with it.
Or perhaps a new 'cloak watch' that instead of cloaking you gives ONLY you wallhacks of enemies within a certain radius of yourself. Obviously it would have a meter so continous use would drain it, but allow you to tell your team where important targets are and what not. Also think it would be cool if an item like this was in the form of a compass.
A way for the Spy to check which classes the enemy is using. This could be a stand alone item, or an idea I had is make it so the disguise kit only lets you disguise as classes that are on the enemy team. For example, if they don't have any scouts you can't disugise as a scout, but that also means you know they have no scouts. Could help your team plot out what classes your team will use, what loadouts to use, and what to look out for.
Final idea I had was an item, perhaps another 'sapper' that lets you listen in on the enemy team's voice chat and team text chat. Spy is really the only class that gets hard countered by literal voice chat, so a way for Spy to listen in and hear if someone is calling him out or not to better decide to pursue a stab or retreat would be nice. Not to mention being able to listen for coordinated team pushes and similar such things.
Just some ideas I had. Feel free to critique
whoever says BLU engi is the worst class never played tf2 more than twice in their life
widely known that teleporters and dispensers can win or lose you a game
17:45 I like the idea of sapper unlocks being just any kind of placable gadget is cool. Also making it destroyable as well as auto destructing works both thematically and gameplay wise. I myself like the idea of a sapper that when placed changes the team of buildings like a virus and destroys the building at the same time destroying faster the more it's used. Or perhaps places a tracker that shows the location of enemies in its radius through walls but not spies. Or when placed if an enemy comes near it (it's cloaked but like partially visible like allied spies) it slowly drains that enemy's clip for a set amount also being damage from when that enemy takes damage or picks up ammo.
Spy is a glass canon by design and it doesn't have to change
He does
being a glass cannon is good and all, but he's bad at even that.
Fun fact, spy doesn’t technically have a primary weapon, his revolvers are considered secondary weapons by the game
I don't think spy buildings would be too bad with multiple spies compared to a shit ton of engineers placing sentries everywhere
Spy has to jump through a million different hoops to get his insta-kill
Sniper just has to stand at the end of a sightline and wait for you to step into his field of view.
The problem with spies are the players, and they are little selfish pricks who refuse to learn to play more patiently and think any rush to kills will get them reward. It's all about timing and positioning, relying on team to to make moves that distract enemies the most. Simply by existing, you cause the enemies to panic and constantly checking back, which also lets whole enemy team guard down and that also benefit team a lot. Most common mistake is that spy assumed to be pick class, while it's an infiltration class, a spy, that can do sabotage. And, yes, going invisible to infiltrate enemy team to communicate all their movement is actually what spy can be very useful for and benefit the teammates, after all it's a SPY class, and it's a TEAM fortress game where each class has their own class role you assign to in order to help the TEAM.
Spy is already fast enough, especially after a buff, any further buff would make spy just become a hard counter to pyros at this point since pyro has inferior ranged weapons and revolver is a hitscan that you can't dodge yet does fair amount of dps against single targer.
For selfish little prick spies, there is dead ringer already that just makes escape plan basically effortless, no matter in what situation you get to. Given with his boosted speed buff, he's already pretty mobile to escape and strike as is, but dead ringer speed buff just makes it very cheap.
Red tape recorder is good as it gives far greater benefit to the team to help finish, git gud. Saper is a good SUPPORT weapon, perfect one, to disable the main defense tool of enemy and let teammates finish the sentry, so homewrecker is alright, nobody uses it anyway. Also razorback saves sniper back when he's in safe place protected by either teammates or sentry, so shooting sniper with revolver will leave you dead before you land another shoot, it's more of a tool against salty spy players who switch to spy after getting dominated by a sniper, and it helps.
If anything, spy could use more consistent backstab that doesn't fuck you up due to netcode, which becomes a big problem on servers with ping above 50. Regardless how good you're at spy, this gonna fuck you up, so rework knife to automatically do backstab by just holding M1 button and having a back near you would help, even though that may sound cheesy but that's how games like Dark Messiah multiplayer turn Assassin class pretty useful in multiplayer, even though he has smaller angle for back.
There is also facestab problem that needs addressing, which is a poor game design where by mere moving camera a bit too left or right to the foe can make you do facestab, which should be fixed by having geometric location checking on the map that would prevent you to do cheap kills if you're not actually aiming at the enemy as you should do.
3:50 The idea of spy pinging enemies sounds kinda cool... Annoying, but cool
strange for kaluka to not have 15 family guy funny moment gags per second
getting accidentally killed by a soldier trying to rocket jump is the worst feeling when you’re playing spy
I love the feeling of truly fooling a player with a disguise, especially because it’s hard to do.
The art of perfect evasion and deception, we live for it!
as a spy main this basicly rounded up my thoughts on spy this is a amazing video thank you for making it. Also think it would be cool if spy had a wepon like demomans boots for his primary to allow trickstabing spys a more viable way of playing 👍
As Spy main, i can say that Spy for me feels the most rewarding BECAUSE of how weak he is. All odds are against you YET you still can outsmart your enemy and defeat them.
9:59 I think spy is a great idea, he's just poorly executed.
I have long since had an idea for a different disguise kit, one that would force spychecks from classes without effects (ie milk fire) harder. Basically the dowsides are you can't be disguised while invisible and disguising takes longer (yes ik its vague but it doesn't have to be specific you get the general idea). But the upsides would be that enemy player could walk through you like you were on their team. This would also make heavy disguises actually viable since people wouldn't think and you actually could land the stab. I believe the concept is good but their should probably be different downsides, I havent thought too hard about this as you probably can tell.
i actually think that spy being a bad class is a good thing, like neon in valorant theres something about playing the weakest class in the game that makes it so rewarding, i personally think that spy offers an option for players who want a greater challenge, while having something of a crazy high skill celling. I think that bad game design is when it overall negatively impacts the playing experience of many people, sniper is fundementally flawed as he contridicts rather than complements the flow of the game (which is why people complain about him) i think that while getting trickstabbed and facestab is frustrating spy is still overall a fun class to play, while not being too bad to play against
great video
1:36
Disguises are not a tool for getting BEHIND the enemy, that’s the cloak. Which is weird as you said cloak in the same sentence.
2:45
That is the ‘paranoia management’ aspect of spy, something all good spies should take into account. Basically, it’s the act of not targeting a specific player too much so they don’t become spy-checking happy maniacs.
2:54
That is the reason spies have to be adaptable and have to get used to not being able to play their favourite class all the time if winning js a top priority
4:00
Maybe attempt a backstab at a target currently shooting or scoped in, if a heavy is dishing out supportive cover fire, they’re less likely to turn around randomly.
5:45
Use the YER. It still makes a noise but a substantially harder to detect one.
6:07
It lets you attack instantly any time, lets you attempt to get close to the enemy, even lets you fake the death of a teammate to stop the enemy suspecting a spy has entered their lines.
6:52
That is not a good illusion and relates back to my first statesment.
8:58
*Denies the existence of gun-spy*.
10:24
Valid point, but cloaking halves the duration of visible after-effects.
Yes, I wrote a multiple hundred word essay about silly sneaky French-men.
I’m a depressed spy main, what can I say?
Why are you implying that BLU engi is bad?
EVERONE ALREADY DISGUISES ONLY AS SCOUT at least here on Brazil but still giving an speed boost to a scout disguise would just make spies not get better at disguising, i love when I rarely see a spie that has a brain
blu engineer is fine, just use the gunslinger
blu engineer goated
Fun fact: Spy actually moves SLOWER when disguised as classes slower than him.
However, he does NOT move at Scout speed when disguised as a Scout, which is a problem because an observant player will notice this and shoot you for doing so.
So you want spy to get a move speed boost so he can catch other spies?
Wait... Hold up...
I was going to comment tha-
If I could do anything, I would probably make it so enemies who are backstabbed cannot use talk or use chat until they respawn, and backstabbing someone is quieter. Would this be good for spy? Yes. Would it be good for the game? Probably not. But it would be cool, and that’s the only reason people play spy.
There was a weapon concept I saw a while back, the Mann Chop, that could short stun an enemy at the cost of the backstab. It's interesting.
The weapons could receive a lot of good changes, and the disguise kit giving you small buffs depending on the class you disguise as could really boost Spy's survivability. I do like the idea of having sidegrade sappers that debuff enemies rather than sap buildings, and one way to prevent it from being overpowered is treat it like trying to stack the same types of ubers one one person: It won't change anything beyond what the debuff already does, but if you want to have three different spies using three different debuffs, it's kiiinda the enemy team's fault for not keeping up with the spies? Like, that's Spy's thing, sabotage. Stabbing important players and destroying buildings. Kiiinda his gig, but also the sappers could break after a period of time if it's really a problem, or break when another sapper is laid out by the same player.
He could also get another weapon, a rapier, that replaces his knife. It'd probably be similar to Demoknight in a way, changing up how he's played, but in a *different* way. For example, the rapier could give the Spy the ability to 'parry' thus temporarily disabling an enemy's weapon(again, lending to the sabotage aspects of being a Spy), potentially cause short term bleed, have a movement, health, and attack speed buff/have a similar deal where he strikes three times very rapidly or something, all while removing his ability to backstab. Spy is a French "Gentleman". It'd totally match his aesthetic.
I really like this video and the discussion about it, as to your point about the pda problem, here’s the real answer that you pretty much alluded to, stop making it about the sapper; give spy new interesting and fun things to do, don’t let it be the sapper slot, let it be the spy gadget slot
A disguise kit that could let you fire fake shots from the weapon you’re holding or a watch that just lets you pass through enemies if disguised would be super cool
I'd say Spy's interesting unlocks are:
-eternal reward
-spycicle (statue go brr)
-Ambassador (headshot go brr)