You have been growing fast and the quality of your videos has increased a lot, congratulations friend :) To add to what you said, about Achilles using both ends of the spear to stab, you could do that with a Roman Pilum, but nobody did, because normally the front point is made for combat, the back spike has other minimal purposes, but it's not optimized for combat atleast in Roman examples so I agree with you, it makes no sense. The Romans most likely used the back spike only for thrusting the pilum on the ground, but it was bad for hitting, infact once the pila where thrown and the front tip bent (or the wooden pins broke on impact), you couln't throw it back at the ROmans, because the back tip wasn't good at all and the weapon was balanced to not work that way, so they did that on purpose.
Thank you mate! There are some questions about the buttspike on spears and how (or if) they were used because like you said the Pilum has them but you also see them om Greek dory spears which are way longer and much less manoeuvrable. Some people say its just a counterweight others say it's a backup incase your spear breaks, truly I don't know but I'm willing to believe you could stab someone with it if you get the chance but it depends on the type of spear and the situation I guess. (as it always does :P) Thank you for watching man, appreciate it!
Butt end/spike or sauroter became more standard element of Greek spears only towards the end of Arhcaic era i.e. early 5th century BC when single spear became exclusively thrusting weapon, replacing dual spears, though not entirely. Even then, it came in many shapes and forms, from simple round caps to long spikes. Earlier spears were shorter, and during the time Iliad was written, they were usually without butt spike and used as a dual purpose weapon (for both throwing and stabbing). In fact, in 8th century BC, spear was used mostly as a javelin, with sword being the weapon of choice. At the time of Homer's writing of Iliad, which is most likely early 7th century BC, spear was becoming more popular as a thrusting weapon, while still being short and without butt spike, usually. So I would avoid generalisations such as 'Greeks spears were long and less maneuverable'. Chronology is important as military technology/tactic evolved. The purpose of sauroter was most likely a counter balance and a tool for allowing a spear to be placed into the ground when not in hand. It could be used as a weapon, as could basically any (military) item. However, I it was hardly its original or main purpose. There were other secondary weapons and many butt ends weren't even spikes - dull, relatively light, hollow bronze spikes by the way.
It is retarded to say Greek spears were long and maneuverable. Pretty much all practical one handed spears are shorter and quite maneuverable, otherwise they'd be used two handed. People don't make impractical weapons for use in real warfare.
Well, I hopefully can take advantage of this for conversation's sake: Here's a few extra thoughts though. Seems to me like Achilles was using the momentum when the spear was pushed to the side to switch to the other end of the spear. And changing between back hand and forehand of spear grip in the process, alternating technique. The spear doesn't seem too oddly balanced for a special/specific purpose.
I think you missed a large point in the reactionary choreography. The movie sets up the Ancient Greek mythology that Achilles is a natural fighter, blessed by the gods with an innate combat skill. Hector, on the other hand, has become a warrior through decades of experience. They are close to being equally matched, except for that one fact. Hector is not choosing to "matrix dodge" as an alternative to using his shield. He is essentially struggling to keep up with a warrior whose superiority seems almost effortless, by comparison. Which is not to say that Achilles easily wins the day. We clearly see Achilles using every trick in his own playbook, like the jump attack as you call them. Something Achilles had used previously in the movie because it was unexpected. The movie did a fantastic job of showing how natural Achilles fighting ability was. How he often won a fight by doing what was not expected, just like when he attempted to stab Hector with the reverse side of his spear. It wasn't a kill shot, it was a technique designed to stun the enemy long enough to go in for a kill shot. Hector's experience kept thwarting Achilles natural gift, and Achilles gift kept subverting Hectors hard won skill. The choreography of this fight is incredible for that very reason. You can clearly see each of their pugilistic histories by their techniques and exertion. I feel like this little detail was lost on you and you view this fight as a contest between two equal warriors; two men with the same background. The choices they make, that you see as flaws or pointless, were because their usual go-to moves were not working and they needed to resort to creativity. Neither man had ever faced an opponent like the other.
I agree with your sentiment and how symbolic this fight was, but the truth is that Hector knew he was going to die when Achilles challenged him. That’s why he bid farewell to his wife and child. Don’t misunderstand, Hector held his own, but you could clearly see that Achilles overwhelmed him throughout the entire fight
@@amandeepbaghiana4510 Agreed. However, that doesn't negate Hector's prowess in expending more effort from Achilles than he is used to exerting on his enemies. Achilles is a demigod and easily defeated armies, let alone individuals, in no time flat. His hamartia is that he has no humility, ergo no honor, and compensates for it by instigating fights with people he knows will lose to him just to satisfy his ego. This is why he spent most of the Trojan War pillaging the helpless Trojan countryside. This is also why Hector accepted his challenge. Of course he would be overwhelmed and defeated. But, in dying, he not only exposed Achilles's vainglory and hubris-- a demigod exhausting himself as much as he did on a single man, but he also enshrined himself as a man of honor unafraid of confronting fate head-on, making him a more noble man than Achilles could ever be. Achilles knows this and desperately makes up for this by dragging his opponent's lifeless body around the city in an attempt to instill himself with glory, but in doing so seals his fate. Hector's courage in the face of certain doom and Achilles's arrogance in the face of certain victory is why the latter's death is so poetic: a son of the divine who made his bones picking on mortals and singing his own praises is brought to heel by an arrow through the most insignificant part of the body, shot by the most weak-willed and dishonorable man in Anatolia.
Just throwing it out there, that's not why they took the helmet off. Achilles took the helmet off because of his cousin's death (hector killed him), his cousin was pretending to be him so Achilles was practically taunting Hector, saying this time you're fighting me and not anyone else. Hector took his off I assume due to respect.
Oh yeah right Achilles looked confused when he got hit for the first time in his life. He still knew he would win. But Hector the rest of us and me all took it like he was either hurt or pretending to be hurt as trick to make Hector drop his guard. Actually he was ashamed and surprised that a mortal got so close. So he was god-smacked for a moment well in showy flashy Hollywood anyway. "And then a double spin before the kill". Again you could spin but why? A spear is more of a stab stab stab weapon rather than an elongated curve slashing smashing weapon. Those are very good points and to me those parts of the choreography were confusing partly because they kept changing angles. But the good stuff was good. One of my favorites for the story too.
Great review! But you have to look at the plot on why they take of their helmets. Achilles took his off, because Hector had killed Patroclus the day before, thinking it was Achilles under the armor. And for the rest of the movie. Achilles and Hector are actually wearing their helmets all the time. So I think you should give them credit for the usage of helmet in the film, rather than to bash them for not using them in this fight..
It's kinda a pride thing honestly. Multiple times in this fight they both do this. They both remove their helmets, Achilles drops his shield, the switch from spears to swords is even the same though that has more to do with them breaking things. Hector actually breaks this by picking up the spear head and then Achilles ends it. It might seem dumb but try not to look at things as the optimal form of combat. People do stupid things for relatively no reason others can understand. Just because it's a bad idea in the fight doesn't mean they wouldn't do it.
Daddy eugene The way I see it is because Achilles is both angry and confident that he won't lose to these "loser" who thinks he killed the Achilles, which also serves as an open mockery to Hector. While for Hector's case it's because he wanted to fight fair because this is man to man fight and also because he see Achilles' anger and determination, and he knew what causes it. Edit: Well I still agree about the technicality of removing helmet is stupid, but I think he should've at least mentioned it a bit as to why, otherwise it will just come out just as "Oh because this is movie, DUHHHH".
Daddy eugene You haven't seen this movie, have you? This movie did so much completely right. They use armor all the time. Helmets, shields, spears, they use it all. And in Audience service, the main character just has different armor. And on the occasions were someone is not using shields, helmets and so on, it's always a strategic, or plot explaining why. Beach battle: Everyone uses armor. Paris vs Menaleus: Menaleus throws away his shield, because there were no way in hell Paris could kill him anyway. The biggest battle: Hector doesn't have his helmet nearby, he wasn't expecting to fight. When the Trojans attacks the beach: and Hector is prepared, he has the helmet again! :D Odysseus: Wearing helmet both in the main battle, and when the Trojans attack the beach. But he doesn't use it when leading the attack from inside the Trojan Horse, because in that case, he needed all his senses in place. But at least he picks up a shield after he has opened the gates and starts fighting properly. Now, to your question, Achilles showed power, and dominance. First of, as I said, he had the reason to take of his Helmet, not only to show himself who he is, but that he isn't at all unsure of if he will be able to kill Hector or not. For Hector's part, well, it makes less sense, but he knew he was going to lose, you see it on how he asks for Achilles' pact on making sure the loser will be treated with all the proper respect, and also apologises for killing Patroclus. So he thought he might as well fight Achilles on the exact same terms.
+Ximen "Achilles took his (helmet) off, because…" Except in the Iliad Achilles doesn't take off his helmet so it can't really be justified as a plot development. It's movie theatrics, nothing more.
The fact that Achilles stabs Hector through the armour did bother me a little, in the poem Hector was wearing Achillees-s armor, that he looted from Patroclus, that armor was made by Hephestus and was indestructible, so in the poem Achilles killed Hector by stabbing him in the neck, in the area not protected by the armor. Now that i think of it, mythology Achilles was invulnerable, and also wore an indestructible armor made by the god of blacksmiths, how in the hell any sane warrior could ever hope to defeat him?
Hephaestus on the phone with Hades (the Disney version): "Yes..Aha..And then i told them get this..the armor is indestructible! And they bought it! Shit If i knew how to make unbreakable armor i'd patent that shit and move to Monaco, nahh dawg, its just regular ass metal, grab some popcorn, this should be good.."
ARX 351 As I remember Hephaestus created the armour for Achilles to back up the set of armour lost on Patroclus. Furthermore Achilles being invulnerable is not mentioned by Homer, it's only present in other stories.
ARX 351 also i think the gods fucked about a bit in both hectors and Achilles' death(one version i read said athena tricked hector to stop him running away from Achilles,and Apollo helped some archer shoot Achilles in his... Achilles heel)
Exactly my main point against this video. The rules change when the warrior in question is extremely gifted. I feel like this person hasn’t watched the film and is just doing a blind reaction. Achilles was basically dancing this entire fight, he didn’t need to be held down by any rule of combat. When you outclass your opponent, why make it seem like it’s an equal fight? This duel was about Achilles humiliating Hector
very late but, it's because hector cut achilles cousins throat when they were fighting as hector thought it was a achilles himself, so he mocked hector when he took off his helmet by the sentence "Now you know who you're fighting".
I agree. One of the points this film really drives home is that Hector is honorable. If Achilles is going to disadvantage himself by removing his own helmet, then Hector (out of honor) will do the same to make things even and fair, even if he thinks that Achilles is a stronger fighter than himself.
John Doe confident/elite fighters do many things for many reasons not always for practical purpose. Some fighters have slapped their opponents to show dominance....some have kicked with their back leg from behind their front leg without rotating....some just barley touch to play games...
does achilles even need a shield? or armour for that matter? couldn't he just run around naked intimidating the enemy? if i was achilles i would have used all that metal for some heel protection
he says in the movie that he does: Messenger Boy: Are the stories true? They say your mother was an immortal godess. They say you can't be killed. Achilles: I wouldn't be bothering with the shield then, would I?
indeed, Achilles was simply amazingly proficient he probably was the role model for spartan training centuries later, the way he died, with arrow to his anckle, explains everything, he did not expect it, but when he got it, it removed his best ability- speed and agility away. how it was shown in the movie, is also so amazingly realistic. Love that movie, there should be more movies in that quality.
The concept of Achilles' invulnerability is in fact a very late one. The concept didn't exist in the original tradition, the Epic Cycle or the Homer's work. Achilles was originally vulnerable, and was wounded (topic of many artistic representations), although the heel shot what what brought him down, slowed him down, enabling Paris to kill him. It was probably the part that captured the imagination of later authors who made him imperfectly invulnerable (save for the heel).
+Braden Vande Plasse Five years? Beyblades are from 1999, and as far as I can tell, Disney owns it and is still making new episodes. (2017) That's right, Beyblades are older than you. :) +Raptor302 As far as feeling old for understanding the reference goes... I don't get it. Beyblades are still relevant, new episodes are being made, and the toys are still available in stores. My Brothers-In-Law still play with them, and I don't think either are in middle-school yet.
I dont think this review is very accurate because you are trying to analyze capability of Achilles without actually knowing his speed(training), sword expertise and etc. and you are looking at him like a normal dude in a sword fight. Obviously it might not be very beneficial for a normal fighter to perform a jump attack or spin attack etc but Brad Pitt's job was to play a character who is known as unbeatable in melee combat. What I'm trying to say here is that you look at his every move and see if its logical on paper, but his fighting style is more like a dance with flow rather than hitting and blocking kind of runescape combat. He is not your average fighter, having that form enables him to go beyond what's good on paper because he can make use of it. For example, You say that he can put the spear in front of his body and do the same but what you fail to see is that he saves time by using his back and it goes with his flow. Watch the scene again. When Hector hits Achil's spear in an upward direction, Achil uses the momentum of Hector's hit to put the spear on his back, so it adds to his flow. On the other hand, if he wants to use front of his body for the exact same stab, he has to exert more force downward on his spear using his back, biceps and possibly shoulder muscles to keep the spear in front of his body after Hector's stroke, meaning that he will lose a second or half, but by using the hits momentum and his shoulders range of motion, he directs the momentum and saves maybe half second or so to put his spear on his shield in a position ready to stab his opponent. He has a similar flow with many of his attacks and this is just an example. Obviously it makes more fucking sense to use front of your body but the half second you gain from using your back might the your successful stab in combat and yeah he can perform it because he has an insane form and training. Can an average fighter do the same move with the same flow and get the same time benefit? I doubt it, but hey I hope you understand my point.
Berk Tunahan Demirci I think he actually mentions it in his video abot jump attacks. He says something about judging these moves in the context of a normal person using them, not someone as ridiculously skilled (to the point of being superhuman) as Achilles.
i think theres something to be said for rattling your opponent as well. if you do have as much skill as he has, he wants to kind of flex it. people do the same thing in fighting games for example, doing unnecesarily flashy moves to thier opponent just to show that they can and get away with it, its a way of psyching them out and making them more unsure of themselves
Agreed, kinda how technically speaking Ali pulling back on punches is an awful idea-but most people don’t have the reflexes prime Ali had. Most people also didn’t have knock out power fighting on the back foot.
Achilles is an unorthodox type of fighter. That's why Hector doesn't block with his shield and tries to dodge first. He's not sure which direction Achilles attacks are going to come from.
SnapJelly on regards to your explanation on the Spin Attack I really do like it as well I do understand why spinning attacks are very unrealistic in real Combat though despite that there are some exceptions and that exception is basically how the Spin Attack has been portrayed in this fight scene I do believe that someone can do spin attacks while fighting with sword and shield very similar to the Spin Attack in this scene I think it is also possible in a medieval setting with a broadsword or hand and a half sword with or without a shield you just have to be quick enough and again just like in the scene
saying is easier than doing, when fighting against a style that is not common means the moves you see takes time for the brain to process, in this case, i'm guessing that alot of the moves Achilles use Hector has never seen before in a fight therefore openings that he could have taken advantage of never happen as it took his brain too long to react to it, that why in any fights, being able to read your opponent is the best advantage anyone can have, for the most put, Achilles read through most of Hectors moves which is why hes the better fighter in the end
This is easily one of my favorite one on ones in any movie. I didn't know the true lore of Achilles when I first saw this movie so I was honestly upset when Hector lost this fight. That being said, I think both Eric Bana and Brad Pitt did amazing jobs with their characters, IDC how much shit this movie gets, still love it.
5:51 the thrust of that type is actually extremely accurate and fast, I've tried it, I can even throw a spear in that position, even tho short ranged it is fast and accurate. And powerful.
AT 4:40...no, the reason the butt-spike was used is because Hector already deflected the front blade of Achilles' spear, turning it, so hector was recovering from his own defensive move, and Achilles capitalized on that recovery time by thrusting the butt-spike forward. It's a very effective move, and not about telegraphing anything.
2:45 Achilles removed his helmet so Hector can see it's not another cousin (Hector earlier killed Achilles cousin, mistaking him for Achilles) and is actually Achilles himself. No idea why Hector did it too tbh.
Yeah and also Achilles is supposed to be more than a human. He has abnormal strenght. Still doesnt explain the spear break but i think that explains why he aimed to pierce the armor because he can.
Brad Pitt took his helmet off and said "Now you know who are you fighting," because earlier in the movie Eric Bana killed Pitt's cousin after the cousin had put on Pitt's armor. FYI. So yes, for the movie. But not to show the actors.
I have a theory for Hector not using his shield that much in the movie. I think his fighting style is based on counter strikes cause he is a small man, he wanted to bait his opponets to attack so that he could counter, in this instance achilles was just faster and more explosive. Considering priam and paris are really small I assume hector was also that way when he started training, so speed and counters were his thing. As for achilles moves in the fight, just showoff imo
Agreed Achilles is slow when attacking first he's a athlete and Hector kept attacking first a lot to draw his opponent's moves to counter him. I don't think Achilles played with him a lot and he waited for Hector to attack first and he was getting tired too.
I love this movie fight, however what did drive me nuts about it was the choreography for Hector. Shield was never used properly, Kept making these huge moves to clear the line from the spear strikes. I get it its a movie but still they could've done better with Hector's moves.
I think Hector's spear is stuck into the ground when Achilles breaks his spear. Hector ducks, his spear vertical, and it gets stuck into the ground, giving the second fixed point necessary to break it. Still, I don't think it would have happened, as Achilles strikes above Hector's head and shoulder's, so it's more likely it would have bent out of the way and deflected the shield, or have been twisted out of Hector's grip.
was thinking the same, in fact i think you can even see him thrusting the spear down in the ground. in fact i think even for the rigged spear-prop to break it had to be held by something on the ground.
Even if it was stuck in the ground, the moment of force when striking it in that area (near the end of the spear) would be too great. All the energy would simply transfer into a rotating motion. The moment of force is the force applied in newtons times the distance from the joint (in this case, the spearhead) in meters. Therefore he'd have a greater chance at breaking the spear if he were to strike it near the tip, as Hector did later on with his kick. Both cases are extremely unlikely though, because the wood used to create spears is way too hard to just effortlessly snap with your foot/hand. I'm sorry for inaccurate wording, I studied (and still study) mechanics in a different language.
Roberto Pavan I know this is a couple years old but I wanted to add something to this. Achilles cut the head off of Apollo’s statue with his sword. Any regular human being, who wasn’t bathed in the river styx, could not do that. So I think that just goes to show Achilles strength and power when he swung his shield and snapped the tip of hectors spear off.
Those jump attack and other fancy moves can actually been seen in ancient Greek art that portrays warriors fighting each other and the armor during the Trojan war period would have been leather studded with bronze for the most part and was great against slashes but didn't really do much against stab from a sharp pointed sword as such, the Bronze armor and linen Linothorax armors didn't come into existence till much later, shoot helmets made bone pieces were the norm during this time, the main armor was their shields.
actually the greek armor of nobles in the troyen war period would have been bronze cuirass (www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour5.htm, and www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm), while quilted corslettes reinforced with bronze strips was used by rank and file soldiers. (www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour2.htm). some nobles also used bronze scale armor, but it was less common. both hector and achilles were described as wearing bronze cuirasses in the Iliad.
ya obviously its stupid to take your helmet off but you totally glossed over the fact why Achilles did it in the first place. Because hector killed his cousin because he thought he was achilles because he couldn't see his face clearly. Leading to achilles line that you showed, "Now you know who you're fighting." Everything leading up to this point shows us how cocky achilles is with his fighting anyways so this is totatlly belivable.
Fun fact achilles is technically a descendent of a titan (s) both Uranus n Gaia. But those titans daughter married a mortal then later achilles came into the picture. Point is, it's about as close we can get seeing a demigod fight with such grace n style
The reason that they take off the helmets was explained before the fight. Hector killed Patroclus thinking it was Achilles. Now Achilles wants the world to see him defeat Hector. It’s more about glory and Achilles wanting to stare him in the eyes while he cuts him down
achilles is clearly showing off and plays with his "food", to make hector look better, and increase his own glory. its doesn`t make a good story, if achilles kills hector in 2 seconds. by making hector look better, it`s a better tale. but, he was a bit to cocky, and hector almost gets him, to the big surprise of both of them^^.
Just my two cents but I always see the spinning and twirling in fight scenes like this is about the combatants trying to keep the other guy guessing and not knowing exactly where or what angle the attack is going to come from in the same way that you're supposed to flip a butterfly knife around. (Even though I know it's just because it's flashy and looks cool on camera)
Spinning has the opposite effect of disguising your attacks. If you spin around I know exactly where your next attack is coming from (the direction that you’re spinning in). Also you leave your back open to be attacked before you can even turn around fully. People tend to underestimate how much faster it is to swing a sword than to turn around 360 degrees. Spinning is MUCH slower than swinging, meaning you’re going to take a sword to the back almost 100% of the time against a competent opponent.
The spin attacks required the fighters to wait for the spin attack to complete before they react. In every case, the "defender" could use their thrusting swords to strike on a point that has no armor. As to the killing blow, it would have still been a clean strike through collar (vertical). If we were to be accurate here, that strike to the chest would have led to screams of pain for hours, with the shoulder strike also causing horrendous pain after the first minute or so of shock. Still looked great :)
A fun fact. my stage combat teacher, mentioned that he was friends with the guy that did choreography in that movie. He said that the guy told him, that the reason that they guys had swords in their shields, is because the costume directer didn't want sheaths for the swords, because he thought they would ruin the costumes. :P
no he is not a hoplite hoplites didnt exist at that point anyways hitting with a spear is fine regardless since a spear is a long stick with a pokey metal thing at the time, Heavy wood is still good for hitting (quarterstaff anyone) also breaking the spear is probably just the movie demonstrating how strong achilles is. its not "oh spears can be broken by just anyboyd" but "holy crap achilles is so strong he can break a spear just by swining at it"
It still makes no sense the way it broke though. A piece of strong wood taking the impact as depicted would not break because of basic physics. It would be moved and pushed with the shield's movement, not broken.
my point is that it was just shorthand for "achilles can accellerate his shield x fast (whatever it takes to break it) so hes an absolute beast" using a normal persons sttregth it would definitely just be pushed yes
I disagree with your observation at 5:10. He dodged because he just threw a significant strike, which Achilles parried and quickly countered. This blow also came from his left to right side, his spear side. This made it, in my opinion, more practical to dodge seeing as though it would take slightly longer to get the shield there since it was down. That's not even taking into account Hectors fatigue from being on the run making it harder and more taxing to raise a shield. Also, Achilles is supposed to be much stronger and agile to my knowledge, so I feel Hector would be overwhelmed and not react as normally or as fast.
People, this is hands down the best duel in film history. Let's leave it at that. My only grief is that it didn't last long enough. I could be watching them for hours!
it is a duel though, so maybe Achilles those to keep the helmet off so Hector knows who he's fighting and Hector threw his helmet too, because in a duel everything should be relatively even.
You're missing a very important point : hoplite shields had two "weak" spots. One that bashes the enemy own shield against his helm, and another that leaves him exposed. So striking a hoplite shield with a spear can and was used as a strategy.
I'm not any sort of expert on this subject, but I would think that turning your spear around like Achilles did would have some use in that it allows you to stab at a different angle. You can't stab from the left like that unless you did what Achilles did. I don't know how hard it would be to do using two hands when his other hand is holding his shield. I would also think that using some techniques that are more flashy than useful could be good psychologically to keep your opponent guessing or to just demonstrate skill and make him doubt himself.
Interesting note, the choreographers developed two styles for this fight. Achilles' style was intentionally flashy. More a fancy martial art, "god like" if you will. Whereas Hector's style was more self-taught from the experience of battle. More straight forward. I personally loved this movie as it put a more "realistic" spin to the epic.
1) Achilles took off his helmet for a reason, hence the line. not sure why hector did though... 2) he turns his spear because hector knocked it away, now he can strike again without needing to stop the spears momentum and bring it back 3)hector dodges a lot because it shows that achilies is effortlessly getting around his guard, leaving him no choice. each time he dodges is pretty much a kill shot. 4) the spear behind the back and the wide swing are supposed to be one move (in that it both movements work together and were planned that way). the stabs put the opponent on the frontal defensive, then the swing comes around and hits from the side. still not practical in most situations, but better than if you think of it as two moves. 5) the spear broke because hector drove it into the sand when he locked achillies' spear. it was not only supported by one hand as you suggest. other than these, you are totally on point. you are absolutely right that achillies is toying with hector the whole time, especially with that flashy "shield behind the back" thing... totally a taunt. much of the fight is also probing and measuring hector. fast jabs, exotic moves, etc. just to see if hector can handle it. when hector scored that slash, achillies knew that he had crossed the line from unworthy to a possible threat. achillies is supposed to be legendary, and they were trying to show that without going to the typical fantasy tropes or sacrificing realistic fighting. instead of going with chinese wire fighting and matrix moves, they decided to go with flash and arrogance against the next best fighter. a decision i really appreciate
Ty Guy agreed with everything except the part the part where you said the spear was stuck on the ground. Hector was maybe resting the butt of his spear on the ground, but that is not enough to create a counter moment (it can provide a reaction horizontal and vertical force but not a moment). it has to be in very deep in the ground which really wouldn't happen unless he really struck the spear very hard on a somewhat atleast damp ground. also, why would he stick his spear to the ground? you need your weapon to strike with, not stuck.
The reason ships weren't armored until fairly late was also because wood was almost as tough. The big advantage of steel was that it can be formed into more efficient shapes. People could attach plates to their ships. In fact the British did that; they attached copper plates to the keel of their ships to stop rotting.
Late to the party on this one. Here's my analysis plot-wise/choreography-wise. Achilles isn't "showing off," or purposely opening himself up. He is flashier because he is supposed to be on a different level. The moves he uses don't work for others because they don't have the skill or balance to pull them off effectively. His spin attacks are hard to block because they're fast and hard to read. His jump attack is too quick and too strong to do anything but try to block or avoid. He puts his shield on his back and uses spinning thrusts because he knows he can keep balance and make good strikes that others have never seen while still being able to block. I'm not saying it's realistic, of course, but that's the message it was trying to portray. Hector both winded and almost actually damaged Achilles. He knew he would win, but he also knew he had to take it seriously in order to do so.
I agree, Achilles starts out showing off like always but then realizes for the first time ever that he's fighting a worthy adversary and even though he's shown to be clearly physically and technically superior, he actually has to get serious and use some effort to overcome Hector.
a good analysis. I feel that the jumping and spinning attacks are incredibly risky and largely ineffective. when your feet leave the ground you lose the advantage of leverage. when you turn your back to your opponent you lose line of sight. finally, the spear stab would have been painful but not debilitating. I recently fractured my pelvis and broke my wrist in a fall. I got up and walked to a chair. Hector should have been able to continue fighting despite the injury, not dropped to his knees to await the killing blow.
Except where the spear was, there is lung. Not being able to breath due to lung rubbing on the spear, he really should have lost consciousness pretty quick. Penetrating objects are slightly different to fractured bone
Removing helmets was for showing off not practicality,(even if it was just too show actors it can have story logic) as you see Hector remove it too to show he do not afraid to do the same. They can even fight naked if they desire(they are greeks after all :D).
As far as stabbing him straight in the chest--besides the armor, that thrust could potentially sever the aorta. I believe that such a method as stabbing through the aorta was a method of the Zulus for an instant kill.
One little fact you also forgot to mention. Stabbing a shield with a bronze sword like we see them doing a couple of times would result in your bronze sword getting bent out of shape completly. Bronze is a soft metal, and while pretty resistent to chipping, it doesn't bend back into shape, the same way carbon steel does.
The Spartans were famous Hoplites as well, and their Spears were meant for their Phalanx, but they were often recorded throughout history slashing with their Spears so the fact that Achilles does so is definitely doable.
i was a little disappointed at first because i thought you missed the context a lot in this, but then you brought it back around in the end. Achilles (the son of a goddess) is the most dominant and skilled warrior in the world, and can do stupid unnecessary moves with the confidence that hes too good to lose. His glory and name at this point (and revenge for his cousin) are the most important things to him,and hes fighting the best fighter(and prince)of troy on a grand stage in front of royalty, nobility. He needs to show of because thats who he is, and going all out would be anti climactic because while he doesn't know we are watching the movie he is putting on a show for the audience at hand. great stuff as always and thanks for the video
Agree, one of the best fights in movies, really the whole movie was awesome fights. Love your review. Can you do a review on Prince Caspian? It also starts out with a jump attack (sigh), but the rest of it looks cool (though I have no real knowledge of swordsmanship). Thanks!!
Achilles uses the buttspike because his other end of the spear gets blocked and deflected ot another way. He is using it because its more smooth than having to use the time to correct the spear position and stab with the same end again
Agree...Achilies shield was built kind of different too, like with two dips cut into it, so that if Achilies swung it like a spinning top on his arm, it would actually turn the shield into an effective cutting blade. Which, Achilies did to Hector when he swung his shield through the air and effectively cut Hector's spear in half. Now, yes, normally the force of the shield should wrench the spear out of Hector's hand, but Achilies shield had turn into a cutting blade, and with the non-human strength Achilies used during that swing, he Could Indeed cut Hector's spear cleanly in two.
Spinning the spear would create a lot of momentum, which would increase the force of the impact when the point landed. And the point on both ends halves the time before the point is available during a spin. But like you say, there are a lot of questions around how they fought, so who knows? I really liked the jumps in that fight - I can't see how a one to one fight with spears would really work without that kind of move. But it seems like an odd way to fight. Preferred wotsisname the viper in GoT - his moves all made a lot of sense.
Here's a few extra thoughts though. 1. Achilles stabbing his spearhead on the ground. 2. Achilles left himself open, but it kinda seemed to me like he threw Hector off balance with the shield bash, and he was moving away right after the shield bash. 3. Seems to me like Achilles was using the momentum when the spear was pushed to the side to switch to the other end of the spear. And changing between back hand and forehand of spear grip in the process, alternating technique. The spear doesn't seem too oddly balanced for a special/specific purpose. 4. The spear swing, he used his back to give it speed. I figure hitting with a spear would at the very least be like hitting with a staff. And with a sharp end, a swift pull of the spear could be a cut. 5. Pushing Hector by pushing the shield with the sword. 6. Also how they fight with their shields away from each other, behind them, instead of in front of them in between them and each other. Achilles does it a lot, maybe even more than Hector. 7. 11:25 What the Heck just happened there? 8. Sometimes, spinning is easier than to move otherwise. I'd say maybe 50% of the spinning in the fight is justified. Great vid, btw.
5:49 - I could see that actually being pretty practical. You could hide your face a bit more and could stab and duck at the same time, perhaps getting a quick (if inaccurate) hit on a largely unarmored opponent.
1) Hector loses his shield by falling down. Yeah...no. That shield was STRAPPED to his arm! Nope...that's not going to just fall off. 2) Part of the fight looked like Hector failing at cardio. Achilles was barely breathing heavy while Hector was gasping for air.
2:18 obviously Trojan armour is made out of soft rubber instead of bronze hence the complete lack of protection Hector's cuirass provided to his shoulder and chest.
There is a 2 point lever when hector's spear breaks. Achilles spear is against it and Hector's body, Hector's hand grasping the spear above that and then the sheild bashing it. There is also if the spear point is dug in the ground, however it would break most likely below his hand not where the shield struck the shaft
You forgot to mention the part after Achilles’ armor gets sliced, Hector almost stabs him right in the gut and Achilles only just redirects it to his side between his obliques and the shield.
About the helmet thing.. Archilles said "now you know who you are fighting" He did it because Hector killed his younger brother thinking it was Archilles he was fighting. And Hector removed his helmet too for fair play. As for Archilles being open during his shield bash. He IS doing a shield bash at Hectors head. Hector has to block or dodge and has no chance to counterattack with his spear. 12:01 there was no spinning. Hector dodged Archilles strike and countered with his own stab which Archilles in turn dodged. Yes Hector ended up with his back to Archilles for a second but only because he went with the flow of his attack instead of abruptly stopping it, which usually is the right thing to do in order to preserve both speed and stamina. Agree on everything else. Good review.
About Hector's spear breaking: the butt spike could have been rammed into the ground because he tried to secure (?) Achilles' spear in that way. (still doesn't seem to likely that it would break like that)
I saw a behind the scenes video of the fight choreographer saying that he wanted to mimic the poses of warriors that were seen on Greek artifacts. Which would explain their awkward body movements
I mean, about the helmet thing... yes, it would be stupid to take off your helmet, but I think within the movie it's explained just fine. Achilles is obviously showing arrogance and contempt for his opponent. For him the symbollic gesture of taking off the helmet is more important than the extra safety it would bring because he's so incredibly confident. As for Hector, while it's not directly explained I think based on the sort of character he is it's clear that he took it off to make sure things were fair.
The reason why Achilles didn't just end the fight quickly is spelled out early in the movie. He's here for glory and for stories to be told about him. At two points earlier in the movie he displays that he could have just killed Hector and be done with it, first is when he launched the spear at one of Hector's riders outside the temple (he could have just thrown it at Hector since he showed he had some understanding who he was before confronting him), the second time was inside the temple where Hector is surrounded by the Mymidons. Here also Achilles says it why he isn't just going to kill, he wanted an audience and what better audience than the entire city you are besieging. He wanted it to be flashy and be a clash of heros because that was the story he wanted told about himself. He may have also garnered some respect for Hector from their few interactions they had together and of what Achilles had seen of him. He admired Hectors courage, he watched him lead a decisive victory, killed Ajax, protected his men from going to far into enemy lines (unlike his own king), he knew Hector was a brave and good man and deserved to be remembered who only ever wished to defend his home and family, never for greed. And by killing him with his own hand, he made sure Hectors legend was cemented with his own so that people would remember his nobility and deeds for the ages to come. He made sure that it was shown that he was just playing with Hector and outclassed him, but he didn't just kill Hector as if he was another soldier. The cut on his armor just reminded him that this fight has got to end with one of them dead and that he may have underestimated Hector a bit and grown too comfortable during the fight.
at the scene when the shield bash cut off the spear head, may be it could work if the other point end of the spear was stabbed to the ground while he was defending the earlier attack, also having his hand about half way on the spear ?
was thinking the same, in fact i think you can even see him thrusting the spear down in the ground. in fact i think even for the rigged spear-prop to break it had to be held by something on the ground.
Breathing heavy usually at least for me means that youre just in high gear. Doesn't mean youre tired, or tiring. For example, I do lots of push ups. Sometimes I power through 200 in a few minutes. When I do 50 push ups, I am breathing heavily. But I still do 150 more.
Actually, when Achilles removes his helmet, he wants Hector to see his face, because as we know from poem, Hector killed Achilles's friend who wore his armor in combat. This was the whole reason why they fought! So it's pretty cool. And you are right, Hector removes his helmet because of honor/machismo :D
5:51 he has it that way so he could take a huge powerful swing with the very next move he does, by swinging it he forces Hector to block it, Achilles hoping to be fast enough to bring his spear back and thrust it in hopes of doing it before Hector can block it with his shield.
You are forgetting that the spear still doubles as a staff. It's still a wooden pole that, when used to swipe, has A LOT of power and mass behind it. Also, the thing about them removing the helmets is not dumb at all. Achilles removes his because he wants to insult Hector and because he's arrogant. Hector does the same because he's honorable and wants it to be a fair fight. These characters are polar opposites and the fight is choreographed as such. Achilles uses all flashy moves and uses the shield more as a weapon than for actual defense. Meanwhile Hector allows himself to fall into Achilles' guilt trip and is therefore distracted. If Hector didn't feel guilty about killing Achilles' nephew, then he probably would've fought with a lot more resolve and maybe would've won because Achilles leaves himself open too much. But Achilles knows that he got inside Hector's head. This fight is more thought out and way more brilliant than what initially meets the eye.
I see this as a fight between a man who has nothing to loose and everything to gain and a man that has everything to loose including the safety of his kingdom upon loosing and the weight on Hector's shoulders clouded his mind during the fight and caused his skill to diminish . Now in Achilles case he is fuled by sadness, hate, rage , and will stop at nothing until he exacts his revenge and that makes him an extremely Dangerous opponent not to mention he is the greatest warrior of they're time.
8:06 the spear could be in the ground, when he held achilles' spear, it sortof lookedlike his spear was in the ground or he put it agains tthe ground, so the spear WOULD be in place in the ground, and with enough force with a shield that size, i think you definitely could snap that thin spear.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to think this, I thought that when he dropped under the shield strike he might have planted it in the ground, not to mention the amount of force there would be at the edge of the shield hitting it. Idk I just really had a problem with that breakdown.
As always - Shields are used as counter weights to the weapon not for actual shielding :) I did comment on jumps and they do work. In MMA, Muai Thai, Taekowndo etc... it is hard to anticipate and react to if not use to that move. Its fast paced, fluid and timely and entertaining scene as you stated. Great vid. and scene
I'm very late to the discussion but I'd like to point out that every single time Achilles uses a spinning attack he is never in danger of a counter to his open side. The spin is also never the opening of a flurry but a 2nd or 3rd strike in a combination usually after forcing Hecto off balance or to defend away from where the spinning attack will be aiming for. The swing with the spear would also produce enough force with the shaft alone to break an orbital bone (no helmet), wrist, collar bone. If Hector hadn't raised his shield in time, which for most of the fight Hector forgets he has apparently. As for the jumping attacks, Achilles is far quicker and Hector knows this. To counter, since he's backpedaling every time Achilles uses these strikes, Hector would have to stop, plant, and attack. Even though Achilles is moderately leaving himself open, his blade is already coming down before Hector could stop and counter. Achilles also manages to throw these jump thrusts without much obvious telegraphing since a few of his other attacks including spinning ones start the same way. Hector's only choice is to defend, create space, or to circle out (which he never does). This, as well as the reasons you put forward in your video, is why I find this fight to be a fantastic example of almost perfect fight choreography and performance. Every moment has a purpose, it's own story, and reveals more of the personality of the characters.
I agree with most if not all, in a normal real fight, but please everyone remember, Achilles was a demigod. He was able to pull feats and strengths no other man could preform.
I like how Achilles told the little boy he needed armor because he wasn't immortal like rumors said and in this fight, if he had not the armor, he would have been prety hurt.
1) They take the helmets off for plot reasons, both of them use helmets consistently up to that point. Hector takes it off so he doesn’t have an unfair advantage and look like he’s afraid. 2) Achilles shows and tells throughout the movie that he’s a showman. He doesn’t just need to be great, he needs you to know he’s great, and if he’s going to take on the best of the Trojans in front of them in his home turf, he needs to make a show out of it. 3) Why would you raise your shield if you can duck and counter attack? Shields are great for blocking, but you also can’t see while it’s raised. Even in hand to hand combat, it’s better to duck and strike than to block and end the momentum there. 4) Swings like the one Achilles pulls could break your ribs if it lands properly and with that much force. It’s not a stick, it’s heavy wood with a solid metal tip. 5) The attack that breaks Hector’s spear was intended for his head. 6) The spin attack that kills Hector is extremely effective against a tired opponent. He won’t know where the hit will come from and you’re too tired to run away from it. 7) No such thing as “got tired too soon”. Combat of any kind is exhausting, anything over three minutes will begin to tire out even the most conditioned of fighters. And I’m talking hand to hand with professional fighters who fight nearly naked, these guys are wearing metal armor, and carry around heavy weapons. The shields alone look like they weigh 20 pounds at least (doesn’t sound like much, but try running around and fight with 20lbs of that size, it will get heavy pretty soon), of course they’re tired by the end.
Idk if it has been said but when the shield bash broke the spear i believe the tip of the spear was burried on the ground and that would make a bit more sense, but still is overdone, u're right, just wanted to point it out
a not for the comment at 8:44- "Hector is royalty and Achilles is...Achilles" it's not Achilles was actually royalty. the movie did not portray it at all, But Achilles was actually a king, not just a really good warrior.
You have been growing fast and the quality of your videos has increased a lot, congratulations friend :)
To add to what you said, about Achilles using both ends of the spear to stab, you could do that with a Roman Pilum, but nobody did, because normally the front point is made for combat, the back spike has other minimal purposes, but it's not optimized for combat atleast in Roman examples so I agree with you, it makes no sense.
The Romans most likely used the back spike only for thrusting the pilum on the ground, but it was bad for hitting, infact once the pila where thrown and the front tip bent (or the wooden pins broke on impact), you couln't throw it back at the ROmans, because the back tip wasn't good at all and the weapon was balanced to not work that way, so they did that on purpose.
Thank you mate!
There are some questions about the buttspike on spears and how (or if) they were used because like you said the Pilum has them but you also see them om Greek dory spears which are way longer and much less manoeuvrable.
Some people say its just a counterweight others say it's a backup incase your spear breaks, truly I don't know but I'm willing to believe you could stab someone with it if you get the chance but it depends on the type of spear and the situation I guess. (as it always does :P)
Thank you for watching man, appreciate it!
I found SnapJelly as a recommendation while watching you :D
Butt end/spike or sauroter became more standard element of Greek spears only towards the end of Arhcaic era i.e. early 5th century BC when single spear became exclusively thrusting weapon, replacing dual spears, though not entirely. Even then, it came in many shapes and forms, from simple round caps to long spikes. Earlier spears were shorter, and during the time Iliad was written, they were usually without butt spike and used as a dual purpose weapon (for both throwing and stabbing). In fact, in 8th century BC, spear was used mostly as a javelin, with sword being the weapon of choice. At the time of Homer's writing of Iliad, which is most likely early 7th century BC, spear was becoming more popular as a thrusting weapon, while still being short and without butt spike, usually. So I would avoid generalisations such as 'Greeks spears were long and less maneuverable'. Chronology is important as military technology/tactic evolved.
The purpose of sauroter was most likely a counter balance and a tool for allowing a spear to be placed into the ground when not in hand. It could be used as a weapon, as could basically any (military) item. However, I it was hardly its original or main purpose. There were other secondary weapons and many butt ends weren't even spikes - dull, relatively light, hollow bronze spikes by the way.
It is retarded to say Greek spears were long and maneuverable. Pretty much all practical one handed spears are shorter and quite maneuverable, otherwise they'd be used two handed. People don't make impractical weapons for use in real warfare.
Well, I hopefully can take advantage of this for conversation's sake: Here's a few extra thoughts though. Seems to me like Achilles was using the momentum when the spear was pushed to the side to switch to the other end of the spear. And changing between back hand and forehand of spear grip in the process, alternating technique. The spear doesn't seem too oddly balanced for a special/specific purpose.
I think you missed a large point in the reactionary choreography. The movie sets up the Ancient Greek mythology that Achilles is a natural fighter, blessed by the gods with an innate combat skill. Hector, on the other hand, has become a warrior through decades of experience. They are close to being equally matched, except for that one fact. Hector is not choosing to "matrix dodge" as an alternative to using his shield. He is essentially struggling to keep up with a warrior whose superiority seems almost effortless, by comparison. Which is not to say that Achilles easily wins the day. We clearly see Achilles using every trick in his own playbook, like the jump attack as you call them. Something Achilles had used previously in the movie because it was unexpected. The movie did a fantastic job of showing how natural Achilles fighting ability was. How he often won a fight by doing what was not expected, just like when he attempted to stab Hector with the reverse side of his spear. It wasn't a kill shot, it was a technique designed to stun the enemy long enough to go in for a kill shot. Hector's experience kept thwarting Achilles natural gift, and Achilles gift kept subverting Hectors hard won skill. The choreography of this fight is incredible for that very reason. You can clearly see each of their pugilistic histories by their techniques and exertion. I feel like this little detail was lost on you and you view this fight as a contest between two equal warriors; two men with the same background. The choices they make, that you see as flaws or pointless, were because their usual go-to moves were not working and they needed to resort to creativity. Neither man had ever faced an opponent like the other.
Spot on
Exactly man, exactly!
Very well said
I agree with your sentiment and how symbolic this fight was, but the truth is that Hector knew he was going to die when Achilles challenged him. That’s why he bid farewell to his wife and child. Don’t misunderstand, Hector held his own, but you could clearly see that Achilles overwhelmed him throughout the entire fight
@@amandeepbaghiana4510 Agreed. However, that doesn't negate Hector's prowess in expending more effort from Achilles than he is used to exerting on his enemies. Achilles is a demigod and easily defeated armies, let alone individuals, in no time flat. His hamartia is that he has no humility, ergo no honor, and compensates for it by instigating fights with people he knows will lose to him just to satisfy his ego. This is why he spent most of the Trojan War pillaging the helpless Trojan countryside. This is also why Hector accepted his challenge. Of course he would be overwhelmed and defeated. But, in dying, he not only exposed Achilles's vainglory and hubris-- a demigod exhausting himself as much as he did on a single man, but he also enshrined himself as a man of honor unafraid of confronting fate head-on, making him a more noble man than Achilles could ever be. Achilles knows this and desperately makes up for this by dragging his opponent's lifeless body around the city in an attempt to instill himself with glory, but in doing so seals his fate. Hector's courage in the face of certain doom and Achilles's arrogance in the face of certain victory is why the latter's death is so poetic: a son of the divine who made his bones picking on mortals and singing his own praises is brought to heel by an arrow through the most insignificant part of the body, shot by the most weak-willed and dishonorable man in Anatolia.
Just throwing it out there, that's not why they took the helmet off. Achilles took the helmet off because of his cousin's death (hector killed him), his cousin was pretending to be him so Achilles was practically taunting Hector, saying this time you're fighting me and not anyone else. Hector took his off I assume due to respect.
Exactly
To be honest Jelly made some dumb mistakes like the spear thing *COUGH*. He used shitty comparisons all over
Oh yeah right Achilles looked confused when he got hit for the first time in his life. He still knew he would win. But Hector the rest of us and me all took it like he was either hurt or pretending to be hurt as trick to make Hector drop his guard. Actually he was ashamed and surprised that a mortal got so close. So he was god-smacked for a moment well in showy flashy Hollywood anyway. "And then a double spin before the kill". Again you could spin but why? A spear is more of a stab stab stab weapon rather than an elongated curve slashing smashing weapon. Those are very good points and to me those parts of the choreography were confusing partly because they kept changing angles. But the good stuff was good. One of my favorites for the story too.
Great review!
But you have to look at the plot on why they take of their helmets. Achilles took his off, because Hector had killed Patroclus the day before, thinking it was Achilles under the armor.
And for the rest of the movie. Achilles and Hector are actually wearing their helmets all the time. So I think you should give them credit for the usage of helmet in the film, rather than to bash them for not using them in this fight..
still doesn't make sense. why not take off your helmet say what you have to say and put it back on again?
It's kinda a pride thing honestly. Multiple times in this fight they both do this. They both remove their helmets, Achilles drops his shield, the switch from spears to swords is even the same though that has more to do with them breaking things. Hector actually breaks this by picking up the spear head and then Achilles ends it. It might seem dumb but try not to look at things as the optimal form of combat. People do stupid things for relatively no reason others can understand. Just because it's a bad idea in the fight doesn't mean they wouldn't do it.
Daddy eugene The way I see it is because Achilles is both angry and confident that he won't lose to these "loser" who thinks he killed the Achilles, which also serves as an open mockery to Hector. While for Hector's case it's because he wanted to fight fair because this is man to man fight and also because he see Achilles' anger and determination, and he knew what causes it.
Edit: Well I still agree about the technicality of removing helmet is stupid, but I think he should've at least mentioned it a bit as to why, otherwise it will just come out just as "Oh because this is movie, DUHHHH".
Daddy eugene You haven't seen this movie, have you?
This movie did so much completely right. They use armor all the time. Helmets, shields, spears, they use it all. And in Audience service, the main character just has different armor. And on the occasions were someone is not using shields, helmets and so on, it's always a strategic, or plot explaining why.
Beach battle: Everyone uses armor.
Paris vs Menaleus: Menaleus throws away his shield, because there were no way in hell Paris could kill him anyway.
The biggest battle: Hector doesn't have his helmet nearby, he wasn't expecting to fight.
When the Trojans attacks the beach: and Hector is prepared, he has the helmet again! :D
Odysseus: Wearing helmet both in the main battle, and when the Trojans attack the beach. But he doesn't use it when leading the attack from inside the Trojan Horse, because in that case, he needed all his senses in place. But at least he picks up a shield after he has opened the gates and starts fighting properly.
Now, to your question, Achilles showed power, and dominance. First of, as I said, he had the reason to take of his Helmet, not only to show himself who he is, but that he isn't at all unsure of if he will be able to kill Hector or not. For Hector's part, well, it makes less sense, but he knew he was going to lose, you see it on how he asks for Achilles' pact on making sure the loser will be treated with all the proper respect, and also apologises for killing Patroclus. So he thought he might as well fight Achilles on the exact same terms.
+Ximen "Achilles took his (helmet) off, because…" Except in the Iliad Achilles doesn't take off his helmet so it can't really be justified as a plot development. It's movie theatrics, nothing more.
Before this ends, let me just say; it was all Paris' fault.
Paris Alexander
It's not parks fualt it's ires
Exactly
200% true
The fact that Achilles stabs Hector through the armour did bother me a little, in the poem Hector was wearing Achillees-s armor, that he looted from Patroclus, that armor was made by Hephestus and was indestructible, so in the poem Achilles killed Hector by stabbing him in the neck, in the area not protected by the armor. Now that i think of it, mythology Achilles was invulnerable, and also wore an indestructible armor made by the god of blacksmiths, how in the hell any sane warrior could ever hope to defeat him?
Hephaestus on the phone with Hades (the Disney version): "Yes..Aha..And then i told them get this..the armor is indestructible! And they bought it! Shit If i knew how to make unbreakable armor i'd patent that shit and move to Monaco, nahh dawg, its just regular ass metal, grab some popcorn, this should be good.."
ARX 351 As I remember Hephaestus created the armour for Achilles to back up the set of armour lost on Patroclus.
Furthermore Achilles being invulnerable is not mentioned by Homer, it's only present in other stories.
ARX 351 also i think the gods fucked about a bit in both hectors and Achilles' death(one version i read said athena tricked hector to stop him running away from Achilles,and Apollo helped some archer shoot Achilles in his... Achilles heel)
That "some archer" was Paris ;)
Athena gave Achilles spear retrieval hacks.
I feel like this review is critical on points that seem more valid if Achilles was just some guy instead of... you know, Achilles.
Exactly my main point against this video. The rules change when the warrior in question is extremely gifted. I feel like this person hasn’t watched the film and is just doing a blind reaction. Achilles was basically dancing this entire fight, he didn’t need to be held down by any rule of combat. When you outclass your opponent, why make it seem like it’s an equal fight? This duel was about Achilles humiliating Hector
I saw removing the helmets as more of an honor thing
But wtf is up with that behind the back spear thrust?
very late but, it's because hector cut achilles cousins throat when they were fighting as hector thought it was a achilles himself, so he mocked hector when he took off his helmet by the sentence "Now you know who you're fighting".
I think the spear thrust was more of achilles asserting dominance and showing off
I agree. One of the points this film really drives home is that Hector is honorable. If Achilles is going to disadvantage himself by removing his own helmet, then Hector (out of honor) will do the same to make things even and fair, even if he thinks that Achilles is a stronger fighter than himself.
Samuel Bailey yea I thought that also
John Doe confident/elite fighters do many things for many reasons not always for practical purpose. Some fighters have slapped their opponents to show dominance....some have kicked with their back leg from behind their front leg without rotating....some just barley touch to play games...
does achilles even need a shield? or armour for that matter? couldn't he just run around naked intimidating the enemy? if i was achilles i would have used all that metal for some heel protection
he says in the movie that he does:
Messenger Boy:
Are the stories true? They say your mother was an immortal godess. They say you can't be killed.
Achilles:
I wouldn't be bothering with the shield then, would I?
oh, thanks
indeed, Achilles was simply amazingly proficient he probably was the role model for spartan training centuries later, the way he died, with arrow to his anckle, explains everything, he did not expect it, but when he got it, it removed his best ability- speed and agility away. how it was shown in the movie, is also so amazingly realistic. Love that movie, there should be more movies in that quality.
The concept of Achilles' invulnerability is in fact a very late one. The concept didn't exist in the original tradition, the Epic Cycle or the Homer's work. Achilles was originally vulnerable, and was wounded (topic of many artistic representations), although the heel shot what what brought him down, slowed him down, enabling Paris to kill him. It was probably the part that captured the imagination of later authors who made him imperfectly invulnerable (save for the heel).
its hommer poetic the greatest warrior in the world is killed by the weakest
With all this spinning it's like watching two beyblades fight.
hahahaha XD
Berzerk Grizzly lol
Wow, I feel old for getting that reference
It's only 5 years. But that's 1/3 of my life so...
+Braden Vande Plasse
Five years? Beyblades are from 1999, and as far as I can tell, Disney owns it and is still making new episodes. (2017)
That's right, Beyblades are older than you. :)
+Raptor302
As far as feeling old for understanding the reference goes... I don't get it. Beyblades are still relevant, new episodes are being made, and the toys are still available in stores. My Brothers-In-Law still play with them, and I don't think either are in middle-school yet.
I dont think this review is very accurate because you are trying to analyze capability of Achilles without actually knowing his speed(training), sword expertise and etc. and you are looking at him like a normal dude in a sword fight. Obviously it might not be very beneficial for a normal fighter to perform a jump attack or spin attack etc but Brad Pitt's job was to play a character who is known as unbeatable in melee combat. What I'm trying to say here is that you look at his every move and see if its logical on paper, but his fighting style is more like a dance with flow rather than hitting and blocking kind of runescape combat. He is not your average fighter, having that form enables him to go beyond what's good on paper because he can make use of it. For example, You say that he can put the spear in front of his body and do the same but what you fail to see is that he saves time by using his back and it goes with his flow.
Watch the scene again.
When Hector hits Achil's spear in an upward direction, Achil uses the momentum of Hector's hit to put the spear on his back, so it adds to his flow. On the other hand, if he wants to use front of his body for the exact same stab, he has to exert more force downward on his spear using his back, biceps and possibly shoulder muscles to keep the spear in front of his body after Hector's stroke, meaning that he will lose a second or half, but by using the hits momentum and his shoulders range of motion, he directs the momentum and saves maybe half second or so to put his spear on his shield in a position ready to stab his opponent. He has a similar flow with many of his attacks and this is just an example.
Obviously it makes more fucking sense to use front of your body but the half second you gain from using your back might the your successful stab in combat and yeah he can perform it because he has an insane form and training. Can an average fighter do the same move with the same flow and get the same time benefit? I doubt it, but hey I hope you understand my point.
Berk Tunahan Demirci I think he actually mentions it in his video abot jump attacks. He says something about judging these moves in the context of a normal person using them, not someone as ridiculously skilled (to the point of being superhuman) as Achilles.
i think theres something to be said for rattling your opponent as well. if you do have as much skill as he has, he wants to kind of flex it. people do the same thing in fighting games for example, doing unnecesarily flashy moves to thier opponent just to show that they can and get away with it, its a way of psyching them out and making them more unsure of themselves
Agreed, kinda how technically speaking Ali pulling back on punches is an awful idea-but most people don’t have the reflexes prime Ali had. Most people also didn’t have knock out power fighting on the back foot.
Berk Tunahan Demirci jumping techniques would’ve been used against shields for sure.
Achilles is an unorthodox type of fighter. That's why Hector doesn't block with his shield and tries to dodge first. He's not sure which direction Achilles attacks are going to come from.
Any mention of brad keeping his shield behind his head for like 5 strikes.
well, Achilles being Achilles.....
SnapJelly on regards to your explanation on the Spin Attack I really do like it as well I do understand why spinning attacks are very unrealistic in real Combat though despite that there are some exceptions and that exception is basically how the Spin Attack has been portrayed in this fight scene I do believe that someone can do spin attacks while fighting with sword and shield very similar to the Spin Attack in this scene I think it is also possible in a medieval setting with a broadsword or hand and a half sword with or without a shield you just have to be quick enough and again just like in the scene
Michael Rizea never spin Dude if hè spins i stab HIM straight away hè is open
saying is easier than doing, when fighting against a style that is not common means the moves you see takes time for the brain to process, in this case, i'm guessing that alot of the moves Achilles use Hector has never seen before in a fight therefore openings that he could have taken advantage of never happen as it took his brain too long to react to it, that why in any fights, being able to read your opponent is the best advantage anyone can have, for the most put, Achilles read through most of Hectors moves which is why hes the better fighter in the end
Zack Thor you don't understand he was shielding himself from the sun.
Achilles stabbed Hector in the chest due to movie age ratings lol.
Rated R
Well Hector did sliced Achilles's cousin's throat in the movie
This is easily one of my favorite one on ones in any movie. I didn't know the true lore of Achilles when I first saw this movie so I was honestly upset when Hector lost this fight. That being said, I think both Eric Bana and Brad Pitt did amazing jobs with their characters, IDC how much shit this movie gets, still love it.
5:51 the thrust of that type is actually extremely accurate and fast, I've tried it, I can even throw a spear in that position, even tho short ranged it is fast and accurate. And powerful.
AT 4:40...no, the reason the butt-spike was used is because Hector already deflected the front blade of Achilles' spear, turning it, so hector was recovering from his own defensive move, and Achilles capitalized on that recovery time by thrusting the butt-spike forward. It's a very effective move, and not about telegraphing anything.
In most stories of Achilles he was always told to be arrogant so he showing off in the film was fantastic
2:45 Achilles removed his helmet so Hector can see it's not another cousin (Hector earlier killed Achilles cousin, mistaking him for Achilles) and is actually Achilles himself. No idea why Hector did it too tbh.
In the Illiad, Achilles does stab Hector in the throat with his spear but Hollywood had to censor that to make it less gory.
Which is odd because Achilles nephew is shown CLEARLY getting his throat cut open by Hector.
At 12:00, you call it a spin but I think Achilles was just pivoting
Yeah and also Achilles is supposed to be more than a human. He has abnormal strenght. Still doesnt explain the spear break but i think that explains why he aimed to pierce the armor because he can.
Brad Pitt took his helmet off and said "Now you know who are you fighting," because earlier in the movie Eric Bana killed Pitt's cousin after the cousin had put on Pitt's armor. FYI. So yes, for the movie. But not to show the actors.
I have a theory for Hector not using his shield that much in the movie. I think his fighting style is based on counter strikes cause he is a small man, he wanted to bait his opponets to attack so that he could counter, in this instance achilles was just faster and more explosive. Considering priam and paris are really small I assume hector was also that way when he started training, so speed and counters were his thing. As for achilles moves in the fight, just showoff imo
Agreed Achilles is slow when attacking first he's a athlete and Hector kept attacking first a lot to draw his opponent's moves to counter him. I don't think Achilles played with him a lot and he waited for Hector to attack first and he was getting tired too.
I love this movie fight, however what did drive me nuts about it was the choreography for Hector. Shield was never used properly, Kept making these huge moves to clear the line from the spear strikes. I get it its a movie but still they could've done better with Hector's moves.
I think Hector's spear is stuck into the ground when Achilles breaks his spear. Hector ducks, his spear vertical, and it gets stuck into the ground, giving the second fixed point necessary to break it. Still, I don't think it would have happened, as Achilles strikes above Hector's head and shoulder's, so it's more likely it would have bent out of the way and deflected the shield, or have been twisted out of Hector's grip.
was thinking the same, in fact i think you can even see him thrusting the spear down in the ground.
in fact i think even for the rigged spear-prop to break it had to be held by something on the ground.
Even if it was stuck in the ground, the moment of force when striking it in that area (near the end of the spear) would be too great. All the energy would simply transfer into a rotating motion. The moment of force is the force applied in newtons times the distance from the joint (in this case, the spearhead) in meters. Therefore he'd have a greater chance at breaking the spear if he were to strike it near the tip, as Hector did later on with his kick.
Both cases are extremely unlikely though, because the wood used to create spears is way too hard to just effortlessly snap with your foot/hand. I'm sorry for inaccurate wording, I studied (and still study) mechanics in a different language.
Roberto Pavan I know this is a couple years old but I wanted to add something to this. Achilles cut the head off of Apollo’s statue with his sword. Any regular human being, who wasn’t bathed in the river styx, could not do that. So I think that just goes to show Achilles strength and power when he swung his shield and snapped the tip of hectors spear off.
Those jump attack and other fancy moves can actually been seen in ancient Greek art that portrays warriors fighting each other and the armor during the Trojan war period would have been leather studded with bronze for the most part and was great against slashes but didn't really do much against stab from a sharp pointed sword as such, the Bronze armor and linen Linothorax armors didn't come into existence till much later, shoot helmets made bone pieces were the norm during this time, the main armor was their shields.
actually the greek armor of nobles in the troyen war period would have been bronze cuirass (www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour5.htm, and www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour1.htm), while quilted corslettes reinforced with bronze strips was used by rank and file soldiers. (www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour2.htm). some nobles also used bronze scale armor, but it was less common.
both hector and achilles were described as wearing bronze cuirasses in the Iliad.
ya obviously its stupid to take your helmet off but you totally glossed over the fact why Achilles did it in the first place. Because hector killed his cousin because he thought he was achilles because he couldn't see his face clearly. Leading to achilles line that you showed, "Now you know who you're fighting." Everything leading up to this point shows us how cocky achilles is with his fighting anyways so this is totatlly belivable.
Fun fact achilles is technically a descendent of a titan (s) both Uranus n Gaia. But those titans daughter married a mortal then later achilles came into the picture. Point is, it's about as close we can get seeing a demigod fight with such grace n style
The reason that they take off the helmets was explained before the fight. Hector killed Patroclus thinking it was Achilles. Now Achilles wants the world to see him defeat Hector. It’s more about glory and Achilles wanting to stare him in the eyes while he cuts him down
Maybe hectors spear broke because the bottom was on the ground? Therefore making the spear break rather than it being disarmed
achilles is clearly showing off and plays with his "food", to make hector look better, and increase his own glory.
its doesn`t make a good story, if achilles kills hector in 2 seconds. by making hector look better, it`s a better tale.
but, he was a bit to cocky, and hector almost gets him, to the big surprise of both of them^^.
Meh Achilles knows he’s going to die in the war, his mom (an oracle) even told him he would, all he care for is the glory, so he’s drawing it out
Just my two cents but I always see the spinning and twirling in fight scenes like this is about the combatants trying to keep the other guy guessing and not knowing exactly where or what angle the attack is going to come from in the same way that you're supposed to flip a butterfly knife around. (Even though I know it's just because it's flashy and looks cool on camera)
yea thats a great concept but in a real swordfight that doesn't work, if you want to keep your opponent guessing you just faint
Spinning has the opposite effect of disguising your attacks. If you spin around I know exactly where your next attack is coming from (the direction that you’re spinning in). Also you leave your back open to be attacked before you can even turn around fully. People tend to underestimate how much faster it is to swing a sword than to turn around 360 degrees. Spinning is MUCH slower than swinging, meaning you’re going to take a sword to the back almost 100% of the time against a competent opponent.
The spin attacks required the fighters to wait for the spin attack to complete before they react. In every case, the "defender" could use their thrusting swords to strike on a point that has no armor. As to the killing blow, it would have still been a clean strike through collar (vertical). If we were to be accurate here, that strike to the chest would have led to screams of pain for hours, with the shoulder strike also causing horrendous pain after the first minute or so of shock. Still looked great :)
6:20 well a quarterstuff hurts me alot when i get hit by it so why wouldnt a spear?
A fun fact. my stage combat teacher, mentioned that he was friends with the guy that did choreography in that movie. He said that the guy told him, that the reason that they guys had swords in their shields, is because the costume directer didn't want sheaths for the swords, because he thought they would ruin the costumes. :P
He did tell Priam that Hector was the best fighter he ever fought.
no he is not a hoplite
hoplites didnt exist at that point
anyways hitting with a spear is fine regardless since a spear is a long stick with a pokey metal thing at the time, Heavy wood is still good for hitting (quarterstaff anyone)
also breaking the spear is probably just the movie demonstrating how strong achilles is. its not "oh spears can be broken by just anyboyd" but "holy crap achilles is so strong he can break a spear just by swining at it"
It still makes no sense the way it broke though. A piece of strong wood taking the impact as depicted would not break because of basic physics. It would be moved and pushed with the shield's movement, not broken.
my point is that it was just shorthand for "achilles can accellerate his shield x fast (whatever it takes to break it) so hes an absolute beast"
using a normal persons sttregth it would definitely just be pushed yes
I disagree with your observation at 5:10. He dodged because he just threw a significant strike, which Achilles parried and quickly countered. This blow also came from his left to right side, his spear side. This made it, in my opinion, more practical to dodge seeing as though it would take slightly longer to get the shield there since it was down. That's not even taking into account Hectors fatigue from being on the run making it harder and more taxing to raise a shield. Also, Achilles is supposed to be much stronger and agile to my knowledge, so I feel Hector would be overwhelmed and not react as normally or as fast.
People, this is hands down the best duel in film history. Let's leave it at that. My only grief is that it didn't last long enough. I could be watching them for hours!
it may be fake, but it still one of the best sword fights i have ever saw.
it is a duel though, so maybe Achilles those to keep the helmet off so Hector knows who he's fighting and Hector threw his helmet too, because in a duel everything should be relatively even.
You're missing a very important point :
hoplite shields had two "weak" spots.
One that bashes the enemy own shield against his helm, and another that leaves him exposed.
So striking a hoplite shield with a spear can and was used as a strategy.
I'm not any sort of expert on this subject, but I would think that turning your spear around like Achilles did would have some use in that it allows you to stab at a different angle. You can't stab from the left like that unless you did what Achilles did. I don't know how hard it would be to do using two hands when his other hand is holding his shield. I would also think that using some techniques that are more flashy than useful could be good psychologically to keep your opponent guessing or to just demonstrate skill and make him doubt himself.
Interesting note, the choreographers developed two styles for this fight. Achilles' style was intentionally flashy. More a fancy martial art, "god like" if you will. Whereas Hector's style was more self-taught from the experience of battle. More straight forward.
I personally loved this movie as it put a more "realistic" spin to the epic.
1) Achilles took off his helmet for a reason, hence the line. not sure why hector did though...
2) he turns his spear because hector knocked it away, now he can strike again without needing to stop the spears momentum and bring it back
3)hector dodges a lot because it shows that achilies is effortlessly getting around his guard, leaving him no choice. each time he dodges is pretty much a kill shot.
4) the spear behind the back and the wide swing are supposed to be one move (in that it both movements work together and were planned that way). the stabs put the opponent on the frontal defensive, then the swing comes around and hits from the side. still not practical in most situations, but better than if you think of it as two moves.
5) the spear broke because hector drove it into the sand when he locked achillies' spear. it was not only supported by one hand as you suggest.
other than these, you are totally on point.
you are absolutely right that achillies is toying with hector the whole time, especially with that flashy "shield behind the back" thing... totally a taunt.
much of the fight is also probing and measuring hector. fast jabs, exotic moves, etc. just to see if hector can handle it.
when hector scored that slash, achillies knew that he had crossed the line from unworthy to a possible threat.
achillies is supposed to be legendary, and they were trying to show that without going to the typical fantasy tropes or sacrificing realistic fighting. instead of going with chinese wire fighting and matrix moves, they decided to go with flash and arrogance against the next best fighter. a decision i really appreciate
Ty Guy agreed with everything except the part the part where you said the spear was stuck on the ground. Hector was maybe resting the butt of his spear on the ground, but that is not enough to create a counter moment (it can provide a reaction horizontal and vertical force but not a moment). it has to be in very deep in the ground which really wouldn't happen unless he really struck the spear very hard on a somewhat atleast damp ground.
also, why would he stick his spear to the ground? you need your weapon to strike with, not stuck.
The reason ships weren't armored until fairly late was also because wood was almost as tough. The big advantage of steel was that it can be formed into more efficient shapes. People could attach plates to their ships. In fact the British did that; they attached copper plates to the keel of their ships to stop rotting.
Late to the party on this one. Here's my analysis plot-wise/choreography-wise. Achilles isn't "showing off," or purposely opening himself up. He is flashier because he is supposed to be on a different level. The moves he uses don't work for others because they don't have the skill or balance to pull them off effectively. His spin attacks are hard to block because they're fast and hard to read. His jump attack is too quick and too strong to do anything but try to block or avoid. He puts his shield on his back and uses spinning thrusts because he knows he can keep balance and make good strikes that others have never seen while still being able to block. I'm not saying it's realistic, of course, but that's the message it was trying to portray. Hector both winded and almost actually damaged Achilles. He knew he would win, but he also knew he had to take it seriously in order to do so.
I agree, Achilles starts out showing off like always but then realizes for the first time ever that he's fighting a worthy adversary and even though he's shown to be clearly physically and technically superior, he actually has to get serious and use some effort to overcome Hector.
a good analysis. I feel that the jumping and spinning attacks are incredibly risky and largely ineffective. when your feet leave the ground you lose the advantage of leverage. when you turn your back to your opponent you lose line of sight. finally, the spear stab would have been painful but not debilitating. I recently fractured my pelvis and broke my wrist in a fall. I got up and walked to a chair. Hector should have been able to continue fighting despite the injury, not dropped to his knees to await the killing blow.
Except where the spear was, there is lung. Not being able to breath due to lung rubbing on the spear, he really should have lost consciousness pretty quick.
Penetrating objects are slightly different to fractured bone
Removing helmets was for showing off not practicality,(even if it was just too show actors it can have story logic) as you see Hector remove it too to show he do not afraid to do the same. They can even fight naked if they desire(they are greeks after all :D).
is it just me or does the spear at 2:12 look like it simply grows in size?
As far as stabbing him straight in the chest--besides the armor, that thrust could potentially sever the aorta. I believe that such a method as stabbing through the aorta was a method of the Zulus for an instant kill.
One little fact you also forgot to mention. Stabbing a shield with a bronze sword like we see them doing a couple of times would result in your bronze sword getting bent out of shape completly. Bronze is a soft metal, and while pretty resistent to chipping, it doesn't bend back into shape, the same way carbon steel does.
No bronze is better for that
The Spartans were famous Hoplites as well, and their Spears were meant for their Phalanx, but they were often recorded throughout history slashing with their Spears so the fact that Achilles does so is definitely doable.
yea I never quite got that, they show Achilles armor working twice, but Hector is in costume armor that blocks about as well as butter.
They showed Achilles's armor deflecting a slash, not a thrust.
i was a little disappointed at first because i thought you missed the context a lot in this, but then you brought it back around in the end. Achilles (the son of a goddess) is the most dominant and skilled warrior in the world, and can do stupid unnecessary moves with the confidence that hes too good to lose. His glory and name at this point (and revenge for his cousin) are the most important things to him,and hes fighting the best fighter(and prince)of troy on a grand stage in front of royalty, nobility. He needs to show of because thats who he is, and going all out would be anti climactic because while he doesn't know we are watching the movie he is putting on a show for the audience at hand.
great stuff as always and thanks for the video
A1 analysis. I cocnur with everything you stated
Agree, one of the best fights in movies, really the whole movie was awesome fights. Love your review. Can you do a review on Prince Caspian? It also starts out with a jump attack (sigh), but the rest of it looks cool (though I have no real knowledge of swordsmanship). Thanks!!
I thnk the video could be shortened, but I like the idea you points out
Good original content, subbed.
i wonder if that stone hector is stumbling over is intended to be the intervention of athen
Achilles uses the buttspike because his other end of the spear gets blocked and deflected ot another way. He is using it because its more smooth than having to use the time to correct the spear position and stab with the same end again
Why do they even have shields if they barely use tham?
I would have gone with two swords. The best defense is offense.
Yelonek So that you can break your opponent's crappy spear
Agree...Achilies shield was built kind of different too, like with two dips cut into it, so that if Achilies swung it like a spinning top on his arm, it would actually turn the shield into an effective cutting blade. Which, Achilies did to Hector when he swung his shield through the air and effectively cut Hector's spear in half. Now, yes, normally the force of the shield should wrench the spear out of Hector's hand, but Achilies shield had turn into a cutting blade, and with the non-human strength Achilies used during that swing, he Could Indeed cut Hector's spear cleanly in two.
Spinning the spear would create a lot of momentum, which would increase the force of the impact when the point landed. And the point on both ends halves the time before the point is available during a spin. But like you say, there are a lot of questions around how they fought, so who knows? I really liked the jumps in that fight - I can't see how a one to one fight with spears would really work without that kind of move. But it seems like an odd way to fight. Preferred wotsisname the viper in GoT - his moves all made a lot of sense.
I’ve seen Shaolin monks use the same kind of strike, and it’s enough to bruise and break a bone
I love these kind of videos most. Just amazingly entertaining. Jelly is love, jelly is life.
Here's a few extra thoughts though.
1. Achilles stabbing his spearhead on the ground.
2. Achilles left himself open, but it kinda seemed to me like he threw Hector off balance with the shield bash, and he was moving away right after the shield bash.
3. Seems to me like Achilles was using the momentum when the spear was pushed to the side to switch to the other end of the spear. And changing between back hand and forehand of spear grip in the process, alternating technique. The spear doesn't seem too oddly balanced for a special/specific purpose.
4. The spear swing, he used his back to give it speed. I figure hitting with a spear would at the very least be like hitting with a staff. And with a sharp end, a swift pull of the spear could be a cut.
5. Pushing Hector by pushing the shield with the sword.
6. Also how they fight with their shields away from each other, behind them, instead of in front of them in between them and each other. Achilles does it a lot, maybe even more than Hector.
7. 11:25 What the Heck just happened there?
8. Sometimes, spinning is easier than to move otherwise. I'd say maybe 50% of the spinning in the fight is justified.
Great vid, btw.
5:49 - I could see that actually being pretty practical. You could hide your face a bit more and could stab and duck at the same time, perhaps getting a quick (if inaccurate) hit on a largely unarmored opponent.
Achilles took his helmet off to mock Hector for not recognizing his brother. Hector took his own helmet off to make it a fair fight.
1) Hector loses his shield by falling down. Yeah...no. That shield was STRAPPED to his arm! Nope...that's not going to just fall off. 2) Part of the fight looked like Hector failing at cardio. Achilles was barely breathing heavy while Hector was gasping for air.
2:18 obviously Trojan armour is made out of soft rubber instead of bronze hence the complete lack of protection Hector's cuirass provided to his shoulder and chest.
There is a 2 point lever when hector's spear breaks. Achilles spear is against it and Hector's body, Hector's hand grasping the spear above that and then the sheild bashing it. There is also if the spear point is dug in the ground, however it would break most likely below his hand not where the shield struck the shaft
I don't think you need almoust 2 minutes of introduction... just saying
You forgot to mention the part after Achilles’ armor gets sliced, Hector almost stabs him right in the gut and Achilles only just redirects it to his side between his obliques and the shield.
About the helmet thing.. Archilles said "now you know who you are fighting"
He did it because Hector killed his younger brother thinking it was Archilles he was fighting.
And Hector removed his helmet too for fair play.
As for Archilles being open during his shield bash. He IS doing a shield bash at Hectors head. Hector has to block or dodge and has no chance to counterattack with his spear.
12:01 there was no spinning. Hector dodged Archilles strike and countered with his own stab which Archilles in turn dodged. Yes Hector ended up with his back to Archilles for a second but only because he went with the flow of his attack instead of abruptly stopping it, which usually is the right thing to do in order to preserve both speed and stamina.
Agree on everything else. Good review.
One thing it was very much some stated that Achilles only beat hector because he was super human.
One thing I like is that, while they don’t always use their shields, they do more with them then just letting them flail behind them.
About Hector's spear breaking: the butt spike could have been rammed into the ground because he tried to secure (?) Achilles' spear in that way. (still doesn't seem to likely that it would break like that)
I saw a behind the scenes video of the fight choreographer saying that he wanted to mimic the poses of warriors that were seen on Greek artifacts. Which would explain their awkward body movements
I mean, about the helmet thing... yes, it would be stupid to take off your helmet, but I think within the movie it's explained just fine. Achilles is obviously showing arrogance and contempt for his opponent. For him the symbollic gesture of taking off the helmet is more important than the extra safety it would bring because he's so incredibly confident. As for Hector, while it's not directly explained I think based on the sort of character he is it's clear that he took it off to make sure things were fair.
I'm a big fan of the sword striking the armour, btw. Too few shows, movies, etc. show how really badass, tough and practical armour was.
The reason why Achilles didn't just end the fight quickly is spelled out early in the movie. He's here for glory and for stories to be told about him. At two points earlier in the movie he displays that he could have just killed Hector and be done with it, first is when he launched the spear at one of Hector's riders outside the temple (he could have just thrown it at Hector since he showed he had some understanding who he was before confronting him), the second time was inside the temple where Hector is surrounded by the Mymidons. Here also Achilles says it why he isn't just going to kill, he wanted an audience and what better audience than the entire city you are besieging. He wanted it to be flashy and be a clash of heros because that was the story he wanted told about himself. He may have also garnered some respect for Hector from their few interactions they had together and of what Achilles had seen of him. He admired Hectors courage, he watched him lead a decisive victory, killed Ajax, protected his men from going to far into enemy lines (unlike his own king), he knew Hector was a brave and good man and deserved to be remembered who only ever wished to defend his home and family, never for greed. And by killing him with his own hand, he made sure Hectors legend was cemented with his own so that people would remember his nobility and deeds for the ages to come. He made sure that it was shown that he was just playing with Hector and outclassed him, but he didn't just kill Hector as if he was another soldier. The cut on his armor just reminded him that this fight has got to end with one of them dead and that he may have underestimated Hector a bit and grown too comfortable during the fight.
at the scene when the shield bash cut off the spear head, may be it could work if the other point end of the spear was stabbed to the ground while he was defending the earlier attack, also having his hand about half way on the spear ?
was thinking the same, in fact i think you can even see him thrusting the spear down in the ground.
in fact i think even for the rigged spear-prop to break it had to be held by something on the ground.
Breathing heavy usually at least for me means that youre just in high gear. Doesn't mean youre tired, or tiring. For example, I do lots of push ups. Sometimes I power through 200 in a few minutes. When I do 50 push ups, I am breathing heavily. But I still do 150 more.
Actually, when Achilles removes his helmet, he wants Hector to see his face, because as we know from poem, Hector killed Achilles's friend who wore his armor in combat. This was the whole reason why they fought! So it's pretty cool. And you are right, Hector removes his helmet because of honor/machismo :D
5:51 he has it that way so he could take a huge powerful swing with the very next move he does, by swinging it he forces Hector to block it, Achilles hoping to be fast enough to bring his spear back and thrust it in hopes of doing it before Hector can block it with his shield.
You are forgetting that the spear still doubles as a staff. It's still a wooden pole that, when used to swipe, has A LOT of power and mass behind it. Also, the thing about them removing the helmets is not dumb at all. Achilles removes his because he wants to insult Hector and because he's arrogant. Hector does the same because he's honorable and wants it to be a fair fight. These characters are polar opposites and the fight is choreographed as such. Achilles uses all flashy moves and uses the shield more as a weapon than for actual defense. Meanwhile Hector allows himself to fall into Achilles' guilt trip and is therefore distracted. If Hector didn't feel guilty about killing Achilles' nephew, then he probably would've fought with a lot more resolve and maybe would've won because Achilles leaves himself open too much. But Achilles knows that he got inside Hector's head. This fight is more thought out and way more brilliant than what initially meets the eye.
The snapping of Achilles spear while also drawing the sword while also landing a fair blow is definitely the best part of this fight
I see this as a fight between a man who has nothing to loose and everything to gain and a man that has everything to loose including the safety of his kingdom upon loosing and the weight on Hector's shoulders clouded his mind during the fight and caused his skill to diminish . Now in Achilles case he is fuled by sadness, hate, rage , and will stop at nothing until he exacts his revenge and that makes him an extremely Dangerous opponent not to mention he is the greatest warrior of they're time.
8:06 the spear could be in the ground, when he held achilles' spear, it sortof lookedlike his spear was in the ground or he put it agains tthe ground, so the spear WOULD be in place in the ground, and with enough force with a shield that size, i think you definitely could snap that thin spear.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to think this, I thought that when he dropped under the shield strike he might have planted it in the ground, not to mention the amount of force there would be at the edge of the shield hitting it. Idk I just really had a problem with that breakdown.
As always - Shields are used as counter weights to the weapon not for actual shielding :)
I did comment on jumps and they do work. In MMA, Muai Thai, Taekowndo etc... it is hard to anticipate and react to if not use to that move.
Its fast paced, fluid and timely and entertaining scene as you stated.
Great vid. and scene
Thanks for the video. Was fun to watch and hear it broken down. Has anyone written out the: stage combat choreography from this scene?
I'm very late to the discussion but I'd like to point out that every single time Achilles uses a spinning attack he is never in danger of a counter to his open side. The spin is also never the opening of a flurry but a 2nd or 3rd strike in a combination usually after forcing Hecto off balance or to defend away from where the spinning attack will be aiming for. The swing with the spear would also produce enough force with the shaft alone to break an orbital bone (no helmet), wrist, collar bone. If Hector hadn't raised his shield in time, which for most of the fight Hector forgets he has apparently. As for the jumping attacks, Achilles is far quicker and Hector knows this. To counter, since he's backpedaling every time Achilles uses these strikes, Hector would have to stop, plant, and attack. Even though Achilles is moderately leaving himself open, his blade is already coming down before Hector could stop and counter. Achilles also manages to throw these jump thrusts without much obvious telegraphing since a few of his other attacks including spinning ones start the same way. Hector's only choice is to defend, create space, or to circle out (which he never does). This, as well as the reasons you put forward in your video, is why I find this fight to be a fantastic example of almost perfect fight choreography and performance. Every moment has a purpose, it's own story, and reveals more of the personality of the characters.
I agree with most if not all, in a normal real fight, but please everyone remember, Achilles was a demigod. He was able to pull feats and strengths no other man could preform.
What if hector's bottom spike was in the groud, when A. broke his spear? might it be enough of ''antiforce'' against the force of A's impact?
I like how Achilles told the little boy he needed armor because he wasn't immortal like rumors said and in this fight, if he had not the armor, he would have been prety hurt.
I don't know if you done this before, but can you take a look on the Dark Souls 1 armor ? I'm very interested in Sigmeyer of Catharina's armor.
1) They take the helmets off for plot reasons, both of them use helmets consistently up to that point. Hector takes it off so he doesn’t have an unfair advantage and look like he’s afraid.
2) Achilles shows and tells throughout the movie that he’s a showman. He doesn’t just need to be great, he needs you to know he’s great, and if he’s going to take on the best of the Trojans in front of them in his home turf, he needs to make a show out of it.
3) Why would you raise your shield if you can duck and counter attack? Shields are great for blocking, but you also can’t see while it’s raised. Even in hand to hand combat, it’s better to duck and strike than to block and end the momentum there.
4) Swings like the one Achilles pulls could break your ribs if it lands properly and with that much force. It’s not a stick, it’s heavy wood with a solid metal tip.
5) The attack that breaks Hector’s spear was intended for his head.
6) The spin attack that kills Hector is extremely effective against a tired opponent. He won’t know where the hit will come from and you’re too tired to run away from it.
7) No such thing as “got tired too soon”. Combat of any kind is exhausting, anything over three minutes will begin to tire out even the most conditioned of fighters. And I’m talking hand to hand with professional fighters who fight nearly naked, these guys are wearing metal armor, and carry around heavy weapons. The shields alone look like they weigh 20 pounds at least (doesn’t sound like much, but try running around and fight with 20lbs of that size, it will get heavy pretty soon), of course they’re tired by the end.
Wow, you read my mind... I just watched this movie and wanted to ask you to review this fight! Awesome
The jump attach with the sword on a metal shield, that was a strong stab against that shield how did the sword not break at least its tip
I think in order to break the sword hector would have to withstand the hit not get knocked back
Idk if it has been said but when the shield bash broke the spear i believe the tip of the spear was burried on the ground and that would make a bit more sense, but still is overdone, u're right, just wanted to point it out
a not for the comment at 8:44- "Hector is royalty and Achilles is...Achilles"
it's not Achilles was actually royalty. the movie did not portray it at all, But Achilles was actually a king, not just a really good warrior.
9:40 a shield bash to Achilles' elbow is a yes yes here. Much better than the attack Hector preferred )=