He is also so fragile, that i could hit him - and his sword through the next wall during a bind with the strong of my wooden bat just by walking into him and not stopping :) technically he has one or two points though :)
Imagine how awesome it would be if they actually had realistic fights. You'd have a lot of fights be over in a moment, and then you'd have those few fights, where the two fighters were at a similar lvl. That would be so cool. You'd have all these short fights, showing the audience how quickly it can end. How fragile a human body actually is. And you'll feel and actually see how skilled the two fighters are! If I ever create something with sword fighting in it, that's how I would want it to be.
The Basst vlogs you sure? Maybe cut in to the anticipation and emotion in their eyes to build up tension in the fight, the immense concentration, formulation of strategy and contingency and that they know one of them is going to die. Like Obi Wan vs Darth Maul in Star Wars Rebels. Not a terribly realistic fight since it’s an animation but it does this pretty well.
"Deflecting with the (cross)guard" is in fact very common in the german school of swordfighting. It's called "reißen" (tear down). But your right, "reißen" is done to create an opening to counterstrike immediatley.
I think to some degree I think the Mountain isn't meant to be a very good swordfighter, he's just huge and strong. He was unhorsed by Ser Loris, defeated in various battles, totally outfoxed by the Red Viper.
mavis cruet you hit the nail on the head. From what I got from the books was because of his size and strength he uses his sword more like a war hammer (why he doesn't just use one I don't know). And that is what you saw in the show.
mavis cruet you hit the nail on the head. From what I got from the books was because of his size and strength he uses his sword more like a war hammer (why he doesn't just use one I don't know). And that is what you saw in the show.
He's like the George Foreman of swordfighting. He wasn't the most skilled boxer back in the day, he was just huge and powerful. He was actually a better boxer in his 40s when he had to be. I like to think of the Mountain in this manner.
FighterCK Awesome! And Oberyn Martel would have been Ali, floating like a butterfly, stinging like a bee (my Futurama addiction made me want to say "sting like an automated stinging machine...) and rope-a-doping him into a black-and-blue submission. Thankfully in this case, fiction is stranger than reality, as I don't think anyone could have recovered from the trauma of watching Foreman crush Ali's skull in a stadium in Kinshasa...
The gaurd displayed by Brienne involving resting the blade on the arm is called 'schlussel (pardon the spelling error)' which is more of a transitional stance than a static gaurd posture. But I agree with you it is as impractical as unscrewing the pommel and throwing at someone who is about to slash and stab you.
Meh even in the books the mountain is known for just relying on brute strength, not skill, he’s just a strong brute, he’s not hard to beat if you know what your doing
That one guard that Brienne assumes is very similar to the guard known in Meyer as Schlüssel, or the "key" guard. grauenwolf.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/image10.png The second guard, the "hanging left" actually IS in German longsword (Meyer again, and it's basically just a left Ochs, different from the Hangetort because it doesn't cover you in the same way) grauenwolf.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/image_thumb1.png?w=590&h=484 Great video though. Probably the biggest factor in movie choreography is safety, and so you'll see lots of people attacking their opponent's weapon, or attacking out of distance, simply because they don't want to hurt their partner. Personally, I'd rather see people executing historical techniques and guards, even if they're striking in a range where they couldn't possibly reach their opponent. Different camera angles could probably be used to make the distance seem shorter.
I think any guard with two-handed swords - where the two hands are so close together that they touch - is bollox. We could basically stop the review in the first frame where their hands are seen. Anything beyond that does no longer matter. She moves well though. :-)
a "short handle" disqualifies the sword as two-hander. Which is why i explicitely said "two-handed swords" if you wield a butterknife like a two hander, w/o the handle of a two hander - you may be doing something not entirely correct :)
So about Bron and Ser Aegan (I think he is called, but i will just say the Knight) The Knight is wearing heavy armor. And a shield. Bron is using a Sword. No way that he can win against the knight using a sword only in a straight out fight. So what does he do? he tires the knight out. Why not counter with a stab? Stab what? The eyeslids in the helmet? Thats a hard cut for any swordsman. Especiallt when the opponent has a shield (Granted, the knight has no idea how to actually use the shield, but thats another issue). I think that Brons actions in the fight is about right. Tire the other guy out, keep mobility up and stay on the defence, dont waste your own strength on meaningless attacks, keep your pose and ruin the pose of the opponent. Because realy, what was he suppose to attack with a counter? Armor is good shit. It does its job. (Yes i realize that armor is worthless when the script calls for it, and you can easily thrust straight through an armored individual in GoT if you have had enough lines up to that point in the script, but still)
you stab in the gaps in the armor: eyes, armpits, inner thigh, inside of the knees and elbows and in ser vardis case his neck since it's compleatly oppen
SnapJelly Yes in theory. But concidering that he is armed with a shield, that realy limits the possible openings. Again, i know that the actor didnt use the shield in a satisfying or professional way, but i still felt it worthy to touch upon. Oh, and you replied. Good on you, mate. Here is a goldstar. New to the channel, will keep on watching. Keep up the good work and the good content. ^^
The thing is a guy in full plate would not have a need for a shield and then he could just use something like two handed axe or a warhammer. I think Bronn had no way of winning that fight if it was not for his armour and that armor was top quality plot armor lol.
The resting the sword on your arm thing is actually realistic, it’s something fighters did when they were resting, and it’s not like brienne really needed to have a high guard as Jaime is in manacles and he trouble swinging
looks to me like what brienne was doing at the start of the fight with jaime, was the Schlüssel guard from German longsword. At least it's supposed to be. I don't know enough about HEMA, but it comes pretty close to illustrations.
HA! good one. I have a Gladius and a practice Gladius any tips on learning some kick ass Roman style sword fighting. I want to be the most bad ass fighter in the legion.
I think Brienne resting the sword on her hand like that is her saving her strength, in the books she was taught that good stamina was bbig part of winning a fight so thats kind of her tactic now.
Bronn was testing Egans reaction time, which was quick at the start of the fight, seeing how it was the first strike and Egan followed up and made Bronn retreat backward. Egan also had a shield. Bronn wanted Egan to get tired, to slow him down... obviously full plate, a tower shield, and a long sword swinging wide gets exhausting.
Could you possibly make a video on women on the battlefield? I have a friend who is so stubborn saying that females were feared the most and its annoying as fuck.
@snapjelly 4:40 (ish) and Briennes stance - wanted to help you out there. What Brienne is doing is pretty much Schlussel or "The Key". It's described in Joachim Meyer's 1570 treatise "Art of Combat". While not a pure guard, its designed so you can easily drop into any of the other core guards in German longsword fencing (why it’s called akey). Given the circumstances she’s in, it’s actually quite smart as Brienne can then adapt her stance to what Jamie is doing.
I think the reason the hound dodges the mountain instead of just blocking him lies in the subtext. The mountain is supposed to be so much stronger, that if anyone tries to block him he just pushes through and cuts his opponent head off... his sword doesn't even need to be sharp to kill you
When facing such an opponent, he could have also tried a rebat, which would have worked well from the guards they were in too. You don't oppose someone's force just redirect it, hitting their blade from underneath so that it continues it's path over your head. It's a known HEMA principle and I'm pretty sure EMA too. Still I don't think what he did was wrong, if just used in the wrong context. Usually a dodge wouldn't work from such a close distance if you're opponent is trying to hit you. So rebat or block (in this case rebat, and while we're at it come to posta frontale, step to your right and cut straight to their head.)
+SnapJelly It's a phrase in my country. I think it comes from having enough room to swing a Cat O' Nine Tails, ie a whip with nine strips (threads, flails?) that was used in the British Navy in previous centuries. It's not literally a cat, that would be animal cruelty. I love cats and would happily hammer a bullet case into the neck of anyone caught abusing one.
There is a saying the exists in most western countries I think (or at least in America) that goes "You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one of those ________" basically meaning there are a lot of _______ all over the place. I think the "swinging a dead cat" part is just supposed to be macabre humor.
As for Brianne "stance/guard", one a bit redeeming factor (granted, not entirely convincing, there are better ways to do it), is the full armor set she is wearing. Wearing a full plate armor you can actually assume position thats focused on covering the joints and other weakspots - if someone slashes you into an "unprotected" (by your sword, but still very well protected by armor) side, not only he isnt going to achieve much, but will open himself to getting killed right there in a counter move. The weak spot in the argumentation is (outside of other things), the lack of helmet - recurring theme in most of the movie fights, I guess done for obvious reasons. I just accept that helmets will never be represented accurately , and I guess i made peace with that.
With Sir Fartus or whatever, it was mentioned in the books that Bron wasn't expecting to get through his heavy armor very easily, he was trying to wear him out by pissing Sir Fartus off enough to waste all his energy so that Bron would have time to hit weak spots without being counterattacked, which seems like what he was doing.
to the Bronn vs Ser Vardis part: yes, you can do a cut with the false edge - with a longsword. but with a 1 handed sword (what Bronn is holding), it is really uncommon to cut from above with the false edge, because if you miss (or in this case, another thing can go wrong: you hit the enemy's armor), it is harder to recover than with a true edge cut.
regarding brons fight: in the book it is described clearer than in the show, but the reason he dodges, parrys, and runs, as well as why he refused the shield and only wore light armor, isn't because he is afraid, but because he is trying to draw out the fight and exhaust his opponent to the point he can move in without risk. I agree that static parry was more for visual effect than actual sword skill, but the reason he never moves in is because his opponent is in heavy armor with a metal shield, so he wanted to wear him down and stay mobile without closing distance until he was sure his opponent was too tired to effectively use his shield and sword... also in the book, Bron crushes him with the statue instead of it just knocking him back
Isn't resting your sword on your elbow a german fencing technique called the Schlussel guard? I mean, it doesn't appear to be a very defensive stance and appears more for attacking with powerful strikes to the neck or head. From what I read, the primary functions of it are feinting and catching the enemy off guard.
I kinda disagree with the first guard. That guard prepares for a forward lunge and is made more accurate with the elbow holding it straight. Also, if someone attacks from the outer side, the guard will allow a simple tilt to strongly parry the attack down the edge of the blade to the strong part (from at least mid), especially if one intends to lunge. If they strike from the other side, a lunge with an ending move to the outside of the swing would be a very safe move while still getting your lunge in. Bronn had, and usually has little armor. He sticks and moves. At the beginning of his fight, when he had the most power, a deflection or two of power is not a bad intimidation factor, and then he dodges his agitated opponent for a while to wear him down and make him angry and off tilt. Bronn is a rogue and an opportunist who looks for an opening to get a nasty hit in, even with a second side arm smaller blade (which we know Bronn always has behind his back. Maybe the deflection was the result of him testing wether or not he could get close to the knight he fights (I forgot his name). I agree with the mountain vs hound fight. But maybe they pulled their punches because, since they are brothers, they are not ready to fight to the death yet, over this. Keep in mind that things fall apart in the street. Practice and good form is one thing, but when it's on, footwork is even harder and things just don't work out so if the hound could not get his footing right, that might explain the awkward move. All that being said, I wonder who the fight supervisor is on GoT. Might be good to get in his head a bit. I'd like to learn more about some of the great fight makers of hollywood.
In a lot of movies you see sword fighters bringing their blades around from one angle to the next via twisting their wrist to strike. Realistically I can parry a hollywood one two three simply moving my sword arm slightly up, down, or to the side pushing strikes away closer to the forte of my blade if those strikes are heavy. All without twisting my wrist or needlessly spinning the sword.
Great comments but I disagree with you over Bron's fight. Half of Bron's skill is psychology. He was lulling the knight into a false sense of security, acting like a novice and making him over confident and more likely to make a mistake. In addition, his dancing around was tiring the guy in armour out far faster than he was without any heavy plate armour. Once again, making him frustrated and more likely to make a mistake, which resulted in his opponent leaving the back of his leg open to a hamstring cut. The one thing you didn't mention in any of this video was the psychology behind fighting, which applies to all forms of combat. You may want to address this crucial element in future videos.
7dayspking The whole point of the post was to raise the issue of the psychology of fighting. Morale can win wars against great odds - ask the Spartans. It's too big an influence in the outcome of any fight, to ignore. This clip absolutely highlights the way Bron played Ser Vardis and beat him despite the Knight's superior equipment. Whether it was actually plate or not is really rather irrelevant; it is heavier and more cumbersome nonetheless. I understand a full set of plate weighs approximately 60 lbs. If you think dancing around wearing 60 extra pounds of weight doesn't impair your speed, accuracy and endurance, I'm guessing you've never done it. I think after ten minutes, you would agree it IS heavy plate. Any comments on the psychology of fighting?
7dayspking I never said 'physiologically damaged'. I have no idea where you dragged that one up. I was talking about the psychology of fighting. Look the two words up, educate yourself about the difference between the two, then come back and we can discuss it sensibly. Clearly, it's you that doesn't 'understand it'. lol
7dayspking Not really, you confused me by conflating 'psychology' and 'physiology'. I assumed you meant he was damaged physically by the fight, which would have worked in that context but wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the psychological games Bron was playing, acting like a fool rather than the skilled fighter he really is.
+7dayspking This is a direct cut and paste from your second post: 'a person would only become physiologically damaged within a fight if they were hurt, injured or if their opponent did something impressive.' As you can see, you absolutely did say 'physiologically'. How can you discuss a subject when you don't even know what you're talking about? Would it have hurt to pop back up to your previous posts and check?
7dayspking Strewth, this from the guy that launched into a monologue about types of armour in a conversation that was supposed to be about the psychology of fighting. Despite all your flapping about, you still haven't discussed it. BTW 'Physiology' out of 'psychology' is not a 'typo' unless you are insisting the error was just a fumbling of your fingers, which just happened to type out another word. Are you?
what mail did they use in the middle ages? rivetted or butted mail? If it was butted then that's weird cuz riveted is clearly and literally 10x stronger
SnapJelly could u do a video about mail armor maybe :D ? Maybe destroy some myths, state interesting less known facts how useful it was and how it was worn etc.
Brienne is holding her sword like a polearm. The problem with using a sword like this is that you've locked it to your arm so if someone attacks you low your arm is in the way and you cannot parry. Worse is a low attack slapping that sword up, and you have the flat of the blade providing such a nice target, and then the face is exposed. That guard works for polearms because of their length and because the people standing next to you have the same thing and are protecting you.
as for the thing with Bronn i think that also went over your head a bit as i thought it was beautiful. The man was armored so rather than fighting outright, he made the man move a lot, made him make wider swings, tried to tire him out since gambeson+steel=FuckingHotAndSweaty I dont think he was ever in trouble, he was doing his signature 'fighting dirty' and specifically trying to be unorthodox and unexpected since its not what people train to counter, as he quite literally explains to Pod later on.
Actually that guard Brienn assumes in the fight with the Kingslayer is Joachim Meyer's "schlussel" or "key". Its a real guard and I was surprised she assumed it even though she probably didnt learn it from Meyers Kunst des Fechtens.
I'm not sure if they mention this i the series but in the books Ser Vardys fights with Jon Arryn's sword which is more heavier than the one he is used to. Bronn (in the books) knew this and wanted to exhaust Ser Vardys. This also explains why Vardys was so slow in the books at least, I don't remember how it went down in the show.
Mountain vs the Hound: His over sized shoulder pads look like they would cause him problems when trying to stretch this arms at full length. Also it kind of looks like the Mountain favors lightsaber form 1 and 7 by how he kept his hilt centered and close to his chest or mid section lol... then again its got to be tough swinging that size a sword all the time. I see what you mean at 11:15, sometimes though you have to think that maybe a parry or block is as good as just countering eachothers force placed inside the strikes, yet when I watch Jon Snow fight Im like "goddamn he knows how to not play fight behind the sword, he will actually act like a real person fighting to win" where most everyone else is all about having their swords kiss or hug or whatever that stuff Jamie and Breanne were doing on the bridge.
Couldn't Gregor's arms be bent during that swing because he's wearing awkward jousting armor with huge elbows, preventing him from extending fully? As for the stationary fighting, again, I'd put it up to accentuating the pure physical power of these two characters. Every hit in that fight was supposed to look massive and brutal; doing stuff like backing off for a block and simple little parries, while more efficient than what the actors were doing, would detract from that image.
Looking at the Mountain vs Hound fight, it's easy to say the Mountain misread which way his opponent would swing, and therefore started the wrong guard, only to continue it through in the last moment. Done that myself more than once in kendo and SCA combat. Also I don't the the actor who plays the mountain has proportionately long arms like our reviewer here, so the crosscut looks like he's pulling it tight, but my gut feeling is he's just pulling it a little, but looks more given his size and the bulk of his armour. From my own experience, my arms look like T rex arms doing the same move once I'm in full plate and big gauntlets.
Correct me if im wrong, but i am pretty sure that you don't have to stretch your arm when you do the ox guard. you can see it when you google it, and at Blood and Iron. i know that these are not sources from a medieval manuscript, but from the things i've seen, it looks to be that you don't have to stretch your arms :)
7:16 I like how they cut the camera because he would have been left wide open for a normal opponent to punch him in the face :p Also why does he swing twice after the deflects for no reason? :| I thought they were trained
The actor for Jon Snow, Kit Harrnington, is very good with swordwork. That's why they kept shoving him in swordfights, from Hardhome to Battle of the Bastards.
Regarding Brienne vs. Jaimie fight, what they use is an awkward version of an already unstable "posta", registered by Fiori dei Liberi (Posta Fenestra). See ih0.redbubble.net/image.33183261.5454/flat,800x800,070,f.u3.jpg If you guys are interested in medieval fencing, that's a name you should start researching - this and Talhoffer. Theirs are two best preserved and most studied medieval fighting books available.
for season one, remember they barely had any money for such a tv show. A simple indicator: try to see how often the characters (apart from sansa and the queen) change costumes. then compare that to season 2 and above.
Don't worry about the autofocus, this is a good video. Am subscribing gladly. I would love it even more if you added a tiny glossary in your description, because some of us are newbs entirely and have never heard of the 'weak of the blade' before, or the... stuff I can't even spell.
I know this is a bit tongue in cheek stuff. Still, the first scene discussed: Why doesn't anyone (disclaimer: haven't read all comments) ever talk about how fast a fit/trained person moves out of range of a longsword; even in armour? And, in addition, the psychology behind this would be: two master swordspersons doing more of a psychological dance than an actual "trying to kill" move at the start of a fight. I would claim that in a duel all sorts of strange moves would happen until one side gets very sure of the outcome (whether this is true or not). This is, you know, more the kind of "I see you, and I see that you see me" kind of actions. Briene certainly have other motives than to kill Jamie (oath to save the Stark children), and Jamie is at the time fascinated with Brienne and working out how to best survive (alone? or maybe just follow Brienne?). Maybe I'm drunk (yes I am), maybe I'm wrong (probably), but I sometimes get the feeling that some of this historical commentary gets stuff right on the theoretical and practical level, but can miss points about the psychology of real combat, the fact that the option that gets you the highest chance of success also raises your chance of defeat (at the cost of the draw percentage of the move). So to conclude a rant that might be totally off point and irrelevant, when in a real life an death situation that you have some semblance of control in (duel). Most people would take the W/D/L of 20/60/20 over 50/20/30 in each "action"because the survival rate is higher in the first instance (W+D is 80 vs 70 in the later instance). It must be noted that this would change completely in a mass battle where the effect of the people next to you, in sum, is often more significant than anything you, individually, can bring to the battle. I guess that's why some mass/group weapons like the Halberd is difficult to understand for some people. They just don't get the diametrically opposed situational effectiveness of the weapons.
Couple of things: 1 - The guard you critique regarding Jamie and Brienne resembles The Key, a secondary guard from the Joachim Meyer school from which you derived the Ox guard. 2 - In the books, Bronn IS toying with the more heavily armed and armored fighter to tire him out. As the fight plays out, he has difficulty piercing the armor of the opposing warrior, so he exhausts him first. Not ideal swordplay, but true to the books and not a terrible strategy for a sell sword who has learned his trade in a more rough and tumble manner vs. a relatively untested, formally trained (and heavily armored) opponent. The fault, I think, is that the show portrays the knight in armor that might be more readily penetrated, where in the books, if I'm not mistaken, the knight is armored in plate. One on one, it's not exactly easy to penetrate articulated plate worn by a moving opponent with a shield. But, I suppose if we're just critiquing how it's portrayed in the show... well... *shrug* You're probably right. Just figured I'd offer an explanation that dozens of others have probably also suggested.
More about The Key... This is from the actual text from Meyer's Fechtbuch: "The Key is illustrated in Image D. If you stand with your left foot forward and hold your sword with the hilt and crossed hands in front of your chest, so that the short edge lies on your left arm and the point is toward your opponent’s face, then this posture or guard is correctly executed." He writes little else about it, though, so typically it is more of a transitional guard than one at which one starts or, similarly to some other lesser guards, one primarily oriented towards thrusting and/or taking measure of one's opponent before a transition (and thus not discussed at length in his work, due to thrusting being considered rude or dishonorable in German fencing of the time).
And again for the final fight (Hound vs. Mountain), Yea, not perfect, but who would make it perfect IRL? You could say that messy underhand parry was wrong, but I could say it actually saved his legs. Which would be nice to have for the rest of the fight. Not saying they get it right every time, more saying, RL would be even more messy... There must be a reason why RL military forces (and probably throughout history) don't teach "perfect strike on that nerve" but rather focus on "do this move and you'll probably break his arm, or at least cause enough pain to make him unable to respond in kind.
I thought I had gotten really drunk really fast, and I sort of did off that half bottle of bourbon, but it was especially the autofocus that fed this blurry vision.
I'd like to point out what every one of you sword channels seems to miss when they talk about jamie- he doesnt hold the sword right, but he also dont look like he even cares. it's smug confidence and i think it suits his character rather well, he's confident enough in his own reflexes that he never worries - his 'stance' almost looks more like he's baiting them to come in close.
I don't have any experience with swords but I think the main reason why many 'sword moves' or stances are very wrong in Hollywood movies is for this main reason: modern people love guns. The way they are holding their swords in the first fight, is like they are aiming (their) guns at the opponent's face. Better watch that sword miss, it might go off if you're not carefull!
hi just wanted to point at minute 11:35 you say the mountain and brienne i think you wanted to say the hound and brienne? just wanted to let you know =) and btw what do you think would be a good real medieval fighting scene from any movie or series. sry for my english lol
Well, I always assumed that they were preparing for a lunge, and that Jaime was testing her footwork. As for the Hound vs the Mountain, you do remember what we saw the Mountain do only a minute earlier, right? Do you really think that Sandor could have blocked Gregor if he used his full strength?
Wesley Molt When you parry you rarely block with your full strength but instead deflect the blow so it just misses instead of hitting you. Perhaps it would've been more accurate to say "parry" rather than "block" but the best thing for the Hound to do was move AND parry.
while I get what you are saying with the "after that move he should have done this" and you're totally right But.....maybe it's because I'm still new to the swordfighting-scene (HEMA for maybe 8 months) but often outside of the fght I think "do this and when that happens do that, maybe" and practice various moves alot, but when it comes to the heat of the fight all that tends to fly out the window we analyze with logic, but in battle, logic doesn't exist
A lot of people struggle with that in the beginning but thats really just a ''getting used to it'' thing you will eventually learn to stay calm in a fight just give it time :)
Alot of it is just stage fighting. It doesn't look real upon inspection but it's done that way for the safety of the actors. Also there's the 'rule of cool' where they just do poses and swings that aren't realistic but look cool for the camera.
great video, I'm looking forward to other GoT analyses! A small request, if you explain something about a particular fight scene, it would be cool if you could briefly show the scene again after the explanation, because then it's easier to comprehend what you were talking about :D
I will disagree on Brienne's guard. It looks to me more like Joachim Meyer's guard Schlüssel, which has the blade in a similar position to Brienne's, although, Meyer's guard is of course more biomechanically efficient. Easiest attack from Schlüssel is a thrust.
For the Bronn vs Ser Vardis Egan I always assumed that Bronn was overly playing how badly under classed he was and that he was purposefully trying to show how bad he was to in order to egg his opponent into assuming he was really bad... Sort of like the over played viking fight scene from the 13th Warrior. The early fights do look like they suffer from lack of time to get them down correctly, but as the actors have proceeded and as the series has progressed & they've realized they're actually making money from this it seems like the sword fights have gotten mostly better.
That guard...even though they are not really using it correctly (don't rest it on your arm) is called Schlüssel. When I use it, it is mostly transitional and not a guard I would recommend to "camp out" in during a fight.
Its all fantasy anyway, still I bet many people in the real medieval age did some kind of "bad swordmanship", like many people use guns in the wrong way nowdays.
Peter Lannister If they relied on a weapon to survive then the incompetent practitioners would be "selected out"! No doubt there were many poorly/un skilled swordsman in medieval times but these characters in GoT are supposed to be some of the most skilled in Westeros so they need to be convincing...
They didnt focus that much on actual fights which bugged me out but when you think of it they post 10 episodes each lasting 1 hour each season which i'm not sure how long it lasts , so yeah you cant have it all perfect.
Ehm. As a fencer I can tell you that Syrio's fighting is far from being "not effective". There was not much shown of him, but what you saw was someone knowing what he was doing. Btw, the actor is trained in sword fighting and used it many years on the stage.
And right in the beginning of your post you disqualify it yourself. Fencing is sport, has almost nothing to do with martial arts. Sure, I thought right away he knows a bit about fencing, but I was still utterly unsurprised that he was curb stomped by someone who.. well, fought to kill.
beageler Doesnt matter how often I read it, I cant find the part where I call it a martial arts. But the most fun part is that Martial Arts is a sport. And fencing is officially listed as a Martial Arts. As someone who is actually teaching it, I know it. I have no fucking idea why you thought you need to piss in my soup, especially without knowing shit..., but you failed hard. Sorry to disappoint you. Go to next video and try to correct someone there.
Nope, Today martial arts is used for sport predominantly, but they're the arts that are martial, so what fighting men do. By the way, I didn't know that util I wrote my post above, because I looked for the right word :-p
Too true good sir but you do have about 5-6 hundred percent on average (lol there no actual way to measure that) more detailed content than some the other ancient combat channels!
I was just thinking about the Mountain and the hound fight's 3rd issue. I have no experience in sword fighting, but in martial arts, when you are fighting a person with a clear strength advantage (which in the universe of GOT, the mountain had a lot more reach and strength than his brother, even more so in the book's descriptions than even the difference with the actors), you always would use their strength against them as opposed to trying the counter-balance it with yours. Wouldn't that extend to how you would block with a sword and you would prefer to counter WITH the attacker's blow, as opposed to what this gentleman was suggesting and counter against the blow? Or maybe I just misunderstand his explanation completely.,
Even the books got that kind of stuff wrong. I mean, that one fight between the full armored knight vs the non-armored mercenary was really stupid. Seems like Mr. Martin doesn't know much about armor.
A great point is first, you are very good and do great videos. You made good points. There are varying degrees of skill and it's TV. Even in martial arts movies, it's about what looks good on film. The individual skills vary but you 'sell it'. Many of the greats were and are very skilled. But there's no excuse for bad fight scenes or lousy swordplay
@SnapJelly : This guard used by Jaimy Lannister is called the Schlüssel guard (or "Key" guard). It is not commonly known, but it was practiced by alot of medieval swordsmen and knights! It sure has some disadvantages, but nonetheless, it is a real guard and it has its purposes! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing You are welcome! :)
haven't even watched the show but watching sword fights from it is painful. i'm not super realism, i totally get why they don't go halfswording all the time and why they deflect blows with the sharp parts of their weapons, but the ones i watched were painfully telegraphed and slow which not only failed realism but failed the cool factor too, with each blow looking like they think "well this time it's gonna hit for sure, better make it count" and not "if i'll attack i might get an opening". i do understand why, but i wish they planned each sword fight more so they'll be able to make a few quick ones.
Schlüssel guard... yes, it's not a great universal guard you can use all day long, but it is used. Blade is retracted back, so it is not that easy to strike it. One of the basic moves from it is initiating with a thrust, long edge towards the opponent's blade, he strikes it away and you follow with a cut from a direction, where opponent's sword was before
Greetings, Snapjelly! Quick question: Are you married to the idea of exclusively reviewing swordfights from Game of Thrones? Because there are all sorts of other movies and TV shows that have impressive-looking swordfights of their own (the final fight in Shanghai Knights against the fencer with the dual-wielded sabers springs readily to mind, though there are a whole mess of medieval films full of sword fighting as well) that I would love to see deconstructed.
nah mate, I have plenty of things I want to talk about just not enough time to get it all done as fast as I want :P please remain patient there is a bunch of interesting stuff coming in the near future! ^^
Ehh, that's not quite what Bronn was trying to do. He was trying to tire ser Vardis out and wear him down. He knew he wasn't as armored and less skilled than ser Vardis, so he didn't take too many risks while also letting him make a few swings he knew he could deflect. He takes cheap shots when he knows he can get away with it because he doesn't fight with honor and his opponent does. He's the kind of fighter who exploits his opponents which isn't a bad strategy at all.
The only actor in the show that i'd really flak is Nikolaj Coster-Waldau(totally didn't Google spellcheck), not because he's not good with a sword, but because he pretends to know anything about swordsmanship.
Yea, the auto focus is one thing, Could you possibly give yourself room to move when giving the demonstrations? Get out of that corner and find a room or park that has enough space where you don't have to worry about smashing everything in the room!
Why didn't bronn counter? Coz narrative. The narrative is more important. We just introduced bronn and we can say a lot about his character with this fight sequence. There might be other ways, but if this is the best we have then I would make the same decision. It's just not that important.
well the mountain and the hound holding back against each other would make since with the lore, being brothers and all. mountain was pissed and the hound just buys time for the king to intervene
Again, as always in film- shields are used as counter weights to your sword swing not actually a shield between you and the opponent. Might happen with a militia but not an experience footman.
This video is sponsored by autofocus going freaking berserk
Autofocus, not even once. If you don't intend to move greatly, leave it fixed.
Hey, hey, don't blame him. He's a sword fight choreographer, not a videographer.
He is also so fragile, that i could hit him - and his sword through the next wall during a bind with the strong of my wooden bat just by walking into him and not stopping :)
technically he has one or two points though :)
SnapJelly how realistic is characters such as Karl tanner and tyene sand fighting in close quarters with two daggers?
SnapJelly, Jamie's hands were chained up together...
Imagine how awesome it would be if they actually had realistic fights. You'd have a lot of fights be over in a moment, and then you'd have those few fights, where the two fighters were at a similar lvl. That would be so cool. You'd have all these short fights, showing the audience how quickly it can end. How fragile a human body actually is. And you'll feel and actually see how skilled the two fighters are! If I ever create something with sword fighting in it, that's how I would want it to be.
Short fights lol that'd suck
The Basst vlogs you sure? Maybe cut in to the anticipation and emotion in their eyes to build up tension in the fight, the immense concentration, formulation of strategy and contingency and that they know one of them is going to die. Like Obi Wan vs Darth Maul in Star Wars Rebels. Not a terribly realistic fight since it’s an animation but it does this pretty well.
The bit where the hound kills the guys in the tavern is probably the best, quick, and brutal
SnapJelly don't turn autofocus on in the future, just reminding you.
thx mate!
Fucking beat me by 4 weeks.
SnapJelly don't turn autofocus on in the future, just reminding you.
"Deflecting with the (cross)guard" is in fact very common in the german school of swordfighting. It's called "reißen" (tear down). But your right, "reißen" is done to create an opening to counterstrike immediatley.
I think to some degree I think the Mountain isn't meant to be a very good swordfighter, he's just huge and strong. He was unhorsed by Ser Loris, defeated in various battles, totally outfoxed by the Red Viper.
mavis cruet you hit the nail on the head. From what I got from the books was because of his size and strength he uses his sword more like a war hammer (why he doesn't just use one I don't know). And that is what you saw in the show.
mavis cruet you hit the nail on the head. From what I got from the books was because of his size and strength he uses his sword more like a war hammer (why he doesn't just use one I don't know). And that is what you saw in the show.
He's like the George Foreman of swordfighting. He wasn't the most skilled boxer back in the day, he was just huge and powerful. He was actually a better boxer in his 40s when he had to be. I like to think of the Mountain in this manner.
FighterCK
Awesome! And Oberyn Martel would have been Ali, floating like a butterfly, stinging like a bee (my Futurama addiction made me want to say "sting like an automated stinging machine...) and rope-a-doping him into a black-and-blue submission.
Thankfully in this case, fiction is stranger than reality, as I don't think anyone could have recovered from the trauma of watching Foreman crush Ali's skull in a stadium in Kinshasa...
mavis cruet loris cheated
inigo montoya ?????..are you alive !!!????
You have killed my father. Prepare to Die.
The gaurd displayed by Brienne involving resting the blade on the arm is called 'schlussel (pardon the spelling error)' which is more of a transitional stance than a static gaurd posture. But I agree with you it is as impractical as unscrewing the pommel and throwing at someone who is about to slash and stab you.
I think the mountain swinging his sword with his arms tucked in was more about his goofy movie armor restricting his arms more than anything else.
Meh even in the books the mountain is known for just relying on brute strength, not skill, he’s just a strong brute, he’s not hard to beat if you know what your doing
That one guard that Brienne assumes is very similar to the guard known in Meyer as Schlüssel, or the "key" guard. grauenwolf.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/image10.png
The second guard, the "hanging left" actually IS in German longsword (Meyer again, and it's basically just a left Ochs, different from the Hangetort because it doesn't cover you in the same way) grauenwolf.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/image_thumb1.png?w=590&h=484
Great video though. Probably the biggest factor in movie choreography is safety, and so you'll see lots of people attacking their opponent's weapon, or attacking out of distance, simply because they don't want to hurt their partner. Personally, I'd rather see people executing historical techniques and guards, even if they're striking in a range where they couldn't possibly reach their opponent. Different camera angles could probably be used to make the distance seem shorter.
My words.
oh, darn it, didnt see your comment before. could have saved my own on top. Good call, thx for mentioning it, good call.
I think any guard with two-handed swords - where the two hands are so close together that they touch - is bollox.
We could basically stop the review in the first frame where their hands are seen. Anything beyond that does no longer matter. She moves well though. :-)
Just don't forget that with a short handle your hands can't really be too far from each other.
a "short handle" disqualifies the sword as two-hander. Which is why i explicitely said "two-handed swords"
if you wield a butterknife like a two hander, w/o the handle of a two hander - you may be doing something not entirely correct :)
So about Bron and Ser Aegan (I think he is called, but i will just say the Knight)
The Knight is wearing heavy armor. And a shield. Bron is using a Sword. No way that he can win against the knight using a sword only in a straight out fight. So what does he do? he tires the knight out.
Why not counter with a stab? Stab what? The eyeslids in the helmet? Thats a hard cut for any swordsman. Especiallt when the opponent has a shield (Granted, the knight has no idea how to actually use the shield, but thats another issue).
I think that Brons actions in the fight is about right. Tire the other guy out, keep mobility up and stay on the defence, dont waste your own strength on meaningless attacks, keep your pose and ruin the pose of the opponent.
Because realy, what was he suppose to attack with a counter? Armor is good shit. It does its job.
(Yes i realize that armor is worthless when the script calls for it, and you can easily thrust straight through an armored individual in GoT if you have had enough lines up to that point in the script, but still)
you stab in the gaps in the armor: eyes, armpits, inner thigh, inside of the knees and elbows and in ser vardis case his neck since it's compleatly oppen
SnapJelly
Yes in theory. But concidering that he is armed with a shield, that realy limits the possible openings. Again, i know that the actor didnt use the shield in a satisfying or professional way, but i still felt it worthy to touch upon. Oh, and you replied. Good on you, mate. Here is a goldstar. New to the channel, will keep on watching. Keep up the good work and the good content. ^^
I was thinking on making a video about how to counter a kite shield in the future so just wait and I'll show you! ^^
SnapJelly
Oh, looking foreward to it then. Good luck ^^
The thing is a guy in full plate would not have a need for a shield and then he could just use something like two handed axe or a warhammer. I think Bronn had no way of winning that fight if it was not for his armour and that armor was top quality plot armor lol.
Shit did I go back in time to the 70s
?
This guy looks like the Spanish sword fighter from Princess Bride
inigo montoya
The resting the sword on your arm thing is actually realistic, it’s something fighters did when they were resting, and it’s not like brienne really needed to have a high guard as Jaime is in manacles and he trouble swinging
looks to me like what brienne was doing at the start of the fight with jaime, was the Schlüssel guard from German longsword. At least it's supposed to be. I don't know enough about HEMA, but it comes pretty close to illustrations.
Would you do a swordfight dressed as Jesus.
I can't, the crossguard triggers me
HA! good one.
I have a Gladius and a practice Gladius any tips on learning some kick ass Roman style sword fighting. I want to be the most bad ass fighter in the legion.
I think Brienne resting the sword on her hand like that is her saving her strength, in the books she was taught that good stamina was bbig part of winning a fight so thats kind of her tactic now.
Bronn was testing Egans reaction time, which was quick at the start of the fight, seeing how it was the first strike and Egan followed up and made Bronn retreat backward. Egan also had a shield. Bronn wanted Egan to get tired, to slow him down... obviously full plate, a tower shield, and a long sword swinging wide gets exhausting.
"I wish you good fortune in the wars to come....
.....and now it begins."
Tbh the actor they got for Dane was great, just the fight scene kinda sucks
Could you possibly make a video on women on the battlefield? I have a friend who is so stubborn saying that females were feared the most and its annoying as fuck.
hahaha alright I will!
Frenzy Sucks just ignore him...
turtlesinabox Talking about me??
Your friend must be a moron.
You don't need the internet to tell you that you're friend is chatting shit.
@snapjelly 4:40 (ish) and Briennes stance - wanted to help you out there. What Brienne is doing is pretty much Schlussel or "The Key". It's described in Joachim Meyer's 1570 treatise "Art of Combat". While not a pure guard, its designed so you can easily drop into any of the other core guards in German longsword fencing (why it’s called akey). Given the circumstances she’s in, it’s actually quite smart as Brienne can then adapt her stance to what Jamie is doing.
the Schlussel is done with the blade vertically
Hence the "pretty much".
Doesn't fiore also has a guard I'm his longsword manual that looks like her pseudo guard? A mix of Ochs and schlüssel?
what do you think about the sword fights of lord of the rings?
I just cringed so hard.
hobbit is worse haha
*fewer
Lol, the normal human soldiers bearly get any melee kills on screen
They're so realistic... I mean... come on!
I think the reason the hound dodges the mountain instead of just blocking him lies in the subtext. The mountain is supposed to be so much stronger, that if anyone tries to block him he just pushes through and cuts his opponent head off... his sword doesn't even need to be sharp to kill you
When facing such an opponent, he could have also tried a rebat, which would have worked well from the guards they were in too. You don't oppose someone's force just redirect it, hitting their blade from underneath so that it continues it's path over your head. It's a known HEMA principle and I'm pretty sure EMA too. Still I don't think what he did was wrong, if just used in the wrong context. Usually a dodge wouldn't work from such a close distance if you're opponent is trying to hit you. So rebat or block (in this case rebat, and while we're at it come to posta frontale, step to your right and cut straight to their head.)
The reason why the mountain holds back is (probably just an excuse)because the hound is the mountains brother and he dosn't acually want to kill him
didn`t keep him from burning half of his brother`s face after, I think..., taking a toy or something similar from him.
:D
Gwynbleidd yeah
Or because he would be severely punished by king Robert if he killed him
Christoffer Toresen true
You...don't know anything about the Mountain. At all.
You need more space, there's no room to swing a cat, let alone a sword.
why would you swing a cat?
+SnapJelly It's a phrase in my country. I think it comes from having enough room to swing a Cat O' Nine Tails, ie a whip with nine strips (threads, flails?) that was used in the British Navy in previous centuries.
It's not literally a cat, that would be animal cruelty. I love cats and would happily hammer a bullet case into the neck of anyone caught abusing one.
ooh that makes way more sense...
There is a saying the exists in most western countries I think (or at least in America) that goes "You can't swing a dead cat without hitting one of those ________" basically meaning there are a lot of _______ all over the place. I think the "swinging a dead cat" part is just supposed to be macabre humor.
I take my cat in my hands and pretend she's an assault rifle, she doesn't mind tho.
Not enough preparation, you say? What about the auto-focus problem? ;)
As for Brianne "stance/guard", one a bit redeeming factor (granted, not entirely convincing, there are better ways to do it), is the full armor set she is wearing. Wearing a full plate armor you can actually assume position thats focused on covering the joints and other weakspots - if someone slashes you into an "unprotected" (by your sword, but still very well protected by armor) side, not only he isnt going to achieve much, but will open himself to getting killed right there in a counter move.
The weak spot in the argumentation is (outside of other things), the lack of helmet - recurring theme in most of the movie fights, I guess done for obvious reasons. I just accept that helmets will never be represented accurately , and I guess i made peace with that.
With Sir Fartus or whatever, it was mentioned in the books that Bron wasn't expecting to get through his heavy armor very easily, he was trying to wear him out by pissing Sir Fartus off enough to waste all his energy so that Bron would have time to hit weak spots without being counterattacked, which seems like what he was doing.
to the Bronn vs Ser Vardis part: yes, you can do a cut with the false edge - with a longsword. but with a 1 handed sword (what Bronn is holding), it is really uncommon to cut from above with the false edge, because if you miss (or in this case, another thing can go wrong: you hit the enemy's armor), it is harder to recover than with a true edge cut.
regarding brons fight: in the book it is described clearer than in the show, but the reason he dodges, parrys, and runs, as well as why he refused the shield and only wore light armor, isn't because he is afraid, but because he is trying to draw out the fight and exhaust his opponent to the point he can move in without risk. I agree that static parry was more for visual effect than actual sword skill, but the reason he never moves in is because his opponent is in heavy armor with a metal shield, so he wanted to wear him down and stay mobile without closing distance until he was sure his opponent was too tired to effectively use his shield and sword... also in the book, Bron crushes him with the statue instead of it just knocking him back
this guy looks like that guy from princes bride
I can live with that
can you review the eddard vs jaime fight?
Obviously your camera felt threatened. :'D Make good on its fears!...
Isn't resting your sword on your elbow a german fencing technique called the Schlussel guard? I mean, it doesn't appear to be a very defensive stance and appears more for attacking with powerful strikes to the neck or head. From what I read, the primary functions of it are feinting and catching the enemy off guard.
I kinda disagree with the first guard.
That guard prepares for a forward lunge and is made more accurate with the elbow holding it straight.
Also, if someone attacks from the outer side, the guard will allow a simple tilt to strongly parry the attack down the edge of the blade to the strong part (from at least mid), especially if one intends to lunge.
If they strike from the other side, a lunge with an ending move to the outside of the swing would be a very safe move while still getting your lunge in.
Bronn had, and usually has little armor. He sticks and moves. At the beginning of his fight, when he had the most power, a deflection or two of power is not a bad intimidation factor, and then he dodges his agitated opponent for a while to wear him down and make him angry and off tilt. Bronn is a rogue and an opportunist who looks for an opening to get a nasty hit in, even with a second side arm smaller blade (which we know Bronn always has behind his back. Maybe the deflection was the result of him testing wether or not he could get close to the knight he fights (I forgot his name).
I agree with the mountain vs hound fight. But maybe they pulled their punches because, since they are brothers, they are not ready to fight to the death yet, over this. Keep in mind that things fall apart in the street. Practice and good form is one thing, but when it's on, footwork is even harder and things just don't work out so if the hound could not get his footing right, that might explain the awkward move.
All that being said, I wonder who the fight supervisor is on GoT. Might be good to get in his head a bit. I'd like to learn more about some of the great fight makers of hollywood.
In a lot of movies you see sword fighters bringing their blades around from one angle to the next via twisting their wrist to strike. Realistically I can parry a hollywood one two three simply moving my sword arm slightly up, down, or to the side pushing strikes away closer to the forte of my blade if those strikes are heavy. All without twisting my wrist or needlessly spinning the sword.
Great comments but I disagree with you over Bron's fight. Half of Bron's skill is psychology. He was lulling the knight into a false sense of security, acting like a novice and making him over confident and more likely to make a mistake. In addition, his dancing around was tiring the guy in armour out far faster than he was without any heavy plate armour. Once again, making him frustrated and more likely to make a mistake, which resulted in his opponent leaving the back of his leg open to a hamstring cut.
The one thing you didn't mention in any of this video was the psychology behind fighting, which applies to all forms of combat. You may want to address this crucial element in future videos.
7dayspking The whole point of the post was to raise the issue of the psychology of fighting. Morale can win wars against great odds - ask the Spartans. It's too big an influence in the outcome of any fight, to ignore. This clip absolutely highlights the way Bron played Ser Vardis and beat him despite the Knight's superior equipment. Whether it was actually plate or not is really rather irrelevant; it is heavier and more cumbersome nonetheless.
I understand a full set of plate weighs approximately 60 lbs. If you think dancing around wearing 60 extra pounds of weight doesn't impair your speed, accuracy and endurance, I'm guessing you've never done it. I think after ten minutes, you would agree it IS heavy plate.
Any comments on the psychology of fighting?
7dayspking I never said 'physiologically damaged'. I have no idea where you dragged that one up. I was talking about the psychology of fighting. Look the two words up, educate yourself about the difference between the two, then come back and we can discuss it sensibly.
Clearly, it's you that doesn't 'understand it'. lol
7dayspking Not really, you confused me by conflating 'psychology' and 'physiology'. I assumed you meant he was damaged physically by the fight, which would have worked in that context but wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the psychological games Bron was playing, acting like a fool rather than the skilled fighter he really is.
+7dayspking This is a direct cut and paste from your second post: 'a person would only become physiologically damaged within a fight if they were hurt, injured or if their opponent did something impressive.'
As you can see, you absolutely did say 'physiologically'. How can you discuss a subject when you don't even know what you're talking about? Would it have hurt to pop back up to your previous posts and check?
7dayspking Strewth, this from the guy that launched into a monologue about types of armour in a conversation that was supposed to be about the psychology of fighting. Despite all your flapping about, you still haven't discussed it.
BTW 'Physiology' out of 'psychology' is not a 'typo' unless you are insisting the error was just a fumbling of your fingers, which just happened to type out another word. Are you?
snapjelly could you please do a video explaining the different types of mail armour like chain, ring, and scale.
sure!
what mail did they use in the middle ages? rivetted or butted mail? If it was butted then that's weird cuz riveted is clearly and literally 10x stronger
in europe mostly riveted
SnapJelly could u do a video about mail armor maybe :D ? Maybe destroy some myths, state interesting less known facts how useful it was and how it was worn etc.
all of it is basic riveted mail all other types are inferior
Brienne is holding her sword like a polearm. The problem with using a sword like this is that you've locked it to your arm so if someone attacks you low your arm is in the way and you cannot parry. Worse is a low attack slapping that sword up, and you have the flat of the blade providing such a nice target, and then the face is exposed.
That guard works for polearms because of their length and because the people standing next to you have the same thing and are protecting you.
as for the thing with Bronn i think that also went over your head a bit as i thought it was beautiful.
The man was armored so rather than fighting outright, he made the man move a lot, made him make wider swings,
tried to tire him out since gambeson+steel=FuckingHotAndSweaty
I dont think he was ever in trouble, he was doing his signature 'fighting dirty' and specifically trying to be unorthodox and unexpected since its not what people train to counter, as he quite literally explains to Pod later on.
Actually that guard Brienn assumes in the fight with the Kingslayer is Joachim Meyer's "schlussel" or "key". Its a real guard and I was surprised she assumed it even though she probably didnt learn it from Meyers Kunst des Fechtens.
I'm not sure if they mention this i the series but in the books Ser Vardys fights with Jon Arryn's sword which is more heavier than the one he is used to. Bronn (in the books) knew this and wanted to exhaust Ser Vardys. This also explains why Vardys was so slow in the books at least, I don't remember how it went down in the show.
Mountain vs the Hound: His over sized shoulder pads look like they would cause him problems when trying to stretch this arms at full length. Also it kind of looks like the Mountain favors lightsaber form 1 and 7 by how he kept his hilt centered and close to his chest or mid section lol... then again its got to be tough swinging that size a sword all the time. I see what you mean at 11:15, sometimes though you have to think that maybe a parry or block is as good as just countering eachothers force placed inside the strikes, yet when I watch Jon Snow fight Im like "goddamn he knows how to not play fight behind the sword, he will actually act like a real person fighting to win" where most everyone else is all about having their swords kiss or hug or whatever that stuff Jamie and Breanne were doing on the bridge.
Couldn't Gregor's arms be bent during that swing because he's wearing awkward jousting armor with huge elbows, preventing him from extending fully? As for the stationary fighting, again, I'd put it up to accentuating the pure physical power of these two characters. Every hit in that fight was supposed to look massive and brutal; doing stuff like backing off for a block and simple little parries, while more efficient than what the actors were doing, would detract from that image.
Looking at the Mountain vs Hound fight, it's easy to say the Mountain misread which way his opponent would swing, and therefore started the wrong guard, only to continue it through in the last moment. Done that myself more than once in kendo and SCA combat. Also I don't the the actor who plays the mountain has proportionately long arms like our reviewer here, so the crosscut looks like he's pulling it tight, but my gut feeling is he's just pulling it a little, but looks more given his size and the bulk of his armour. From my own experience, my arms look like T rex arms doing the same move once I'm in full plate and big gauntlets.
Correct me if im wrong, but i am pretty sure that you don't have to stretch your arm when you do the ox guard. you can see it when you google it, and at Blood and Iron. i know that these are not sources from a medieval manuscript, but from the things i've seen, it looks to be that you don't have to stretch your arms :)
7:16 I like how they cut the camera because he would have been left wide open for a normal opponent to punch him in the face :p
Also why does he swing twice after the deflects for no reason? :| I thought they were trained
The actor for Jon Snow, Kit Harrnington, is very good with swordwork. That's why they kept shoving him in swordfights, from Hardhome to Battle of the Bastards.
Bron's tactics was to let him wear himself out. Through taunting moves and waiting it out. It's a well known boxing tactic.
Regarding Brienne vs. Jaimie fight, what they use is an awkward version of an already unstable "posta", registered by Fiori dei Liberi (Posta Fenestra). See ih0.redbubble.net/image.33183261.5454/flat,800x800,070,f.u3.jpg
If you guys are interested in medieval fencing, that's a name you should start researching - this and Talhoffer. Theirs are two best preserved and most studied medieval fighting books available.
for season one, remember they barely had any money for such a tv show. A simple indicator: try to see how often the characters (apart from sansa and the queen) change costumes. then compare that to season 2 and above.
Don't worry about the autofocus, this is a good video. Am subscribing gladly. I would love it even more if you added a tiny glossary in your description, because some of us are newbs entirely and have never heard of the 'weak of the blade' before, or the... stuff I can't even spell.
I know this is a bit tongue in cheek stuff. Still, the first scene discussed: Why doesn't anyone (disclaimer: haven't read all comments) ever talk about how fast a fit/trained person moves out of range of a longsword; even in armour? And, in addition, the psychology behind this would be: two master swordspersons doing more of a psychological dance than an actual "trying to kill" move at the start of a fight. I would claim that in a duel all sorts of strange moves would happen until one side gets very sure of the outcome (whether this is true or not). This is, you know, more the kind of "I see you, and I see that you see me" kind of actions. Briene certainly have other motives than to kill Jamie (oath to save the Stark children), and Jamie is at the time fascinated with Brienne and working out how to best survive (alone? or maybe just follow Brienne?). Maybe I'm drunk (yes I am), maybe I'm wrong (probably), but I sometimes get the feeling that some of this historical commentary gets stuff right on the theoretical and practical level, but can miss points about the psychology of real combat, the fact that the option that gets you the highest chance of success also raises your chance of defeat (at the cost of the draw percentage of the move). So to conclude a rant that might be totally off point and irrelevant, when in a real life an death situation that you have some semblance of control in (duel). Most people would take the W/D/L of 20/60/20 over 50/20/30 in each "action"because the survival rate is higher in the first instance (W+D is 80 vs 70 in the later instance). It must be noted that this would change completely in a mass battle where the effect of the people next to you, in sum, is often more significant than anything you, individually, can bring to the battle. I guess that's why some mass/group weapons like the Halberd is difficult to understand for some people. They just don't get the diametrically opposed situational effectiveness of the weapons.
well I think the guard in the Brienne Jamie fight could be a schlüssel guard so you're wrong
Why do your ads play a quarter of a way into the video? I don't mind ads but I prefer them at the beginning.
Couple of things:
1 - The guard you critique regarding Jamie and Brienne resembles The Key, a secondary guard from the Joachim Meyer school from which you derived the Ox guard.
2 - In the books, Bronn IS toying with the more heavily armed and armored fighter to tire him out. As the fight plays out, he has difficulty piercing the armor of the opposing warrior, so he exhausts him first. Not ideal swordplay, but true to the books and not a terrible strategy for a sell sword who has learned his trade in a more rough and tumble manner vs. a relatively untested, formally trained (and heavily armored) opponent. The fault, I think, is that the show portrays the knight in armor that might be more readily penetrated, where in the books, if I'm not mistaken, the knight is armored in plate. One on one, it's not exactly easy to penetrate articulated plate worn by a moving opponent with a shield. But, I suppose if we're just critiquing how it's portrayed in the show... well... *shrug* You're probably right. Just figured I'd offer an explanation that dozens of others have probably also suggested.
the key guard is done with the blade vertically
More about The Key...
This is from the actual text from Meyer's Fechtbuch:
"The Key is illustrated in Image D. If you stand with your left foot forward and hold your sword with the hilt and crossed hands in front of your chest, so that the short edge lies on your left arm and the point is toward your opponent’s face, then this posture or guard is correctly executed."
He writes little else about it, though, so typically it is more of a transitional guard than one at which one starts or, similarly to some other lesser guards, one primarily oriented towards thrusting and/or taking measure of one's opponent before a transition (and thus not discussed at length in his work, due to thrusting being considered rude or dishonorable in German fencing of the time).
Also, the accompanying illustration from the Fechtbuch:
grauenwolf.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/image_thumb11.png?w=567&h=484
And again for the final fight (Hound vs. Mountain), Yea, not perfect, but who would make it perfect IRL? You could say that messy underhand parry was wrong, but I could say it actually saved his legs. Which would be nice to have for the rest of the fight. Not saying they get it right every time, more saying, RL would be even more messy...
There must be a reason why RL military forces (and probably throughout history) don't teach "perfect strike on that nerve" but rather focus on "do this move and you'll probably break his arm, or at least cause enough pain to make him unable to respond in kind.
I thought I had gotten really drunk really fast, and I sort of did off that half bottle of bourbon, but it was especially the autofocus that fed this blurry vision.
Do you get blurry vision when you are drunk?
Not entirely sure if its blurry so much as slower to focus/the eyes are a bit slower. If that makes sense...
Out for a stroll are we? Now hand over your liquor or your life!
I'd like to point out what every one of you sword channels seems to miss when they talk about jamie-
he doesnt hold the sword right, but he also dont look like he even cares.
it's smug confidence and i think it suits his character rather well, he's confident enough in his own reflexes that he never worries - his 'stance' almost looks more like he's baiting them to come in close.
I don't have any experience with swords but I think the main reason why many 'sword moves' or stances are very wrong in Hollywood movies is for this main reason: modern people love guns. The way they are holding their swords in the first fight, is like they are aiming (their) guns at the opponent's face. Better watch that sword miss, it might go off if you're not carefull!
hi just wanted to point at minute 11:35 you say the mountain and brienne i think you wanted to say the hound and brienne? just wanted to let you know =) and btw what do you think would be a good real medieval fighting scene from any movie or series. sry for my english lol
Well, I always assumed that they were preparing for a lunge, and that Jaime was testing her footwork. As for the Hound vs the Mountain, you do remember what we saw the Mountain do only a minute earlier, right? Do you really think that Sandor could have blocked Gregor if he used his full strength?
Wesley Molt When you parry you rarely block with your full strength but instead deflect the blow so it just misses instead of hitting you. Perhaps it would've been more accurate to say "parry" rather than "block" but the best thing for the Hound to do was move AND parry.
Never turn autofocus on.
I thought the whole point of Jamie's stance was that it was bad. He was saying even from here you are no threat to me.
while I get what you are saying with the "after that move he should have done this" and you're totally right
But.....maybe it's because I'm still new to the swordfighting-scene (HEMA for maybe 8 months) but often outside of the fght I think "do this and when that happens do that, maybe" and practice various moves alot, but when it comes to the heat of the fight all that tends to fly out the window
we analyze with logic, but in battle, logic doesn't exist
A lot of people struggle with that in the beginning but thats really just a ''getting used to it'' thing
you will eventually learn to stay calm in a fight just give it time :)
Alot of it is just stage fighting. It doesn't look real upon inspection but it's done that way for the safety of the actors. Also there's the 'rule of cool' where they just do poses and swings that aren't realistic but look cool for the camera.
great video, I'm looking forward to other GoT analyses! A small request, if you explain something about a particular fight scene, it would be cool if you could briefly show the scene again after the explanation, because then it's easier to comprehend what you were talking about :D
I do have some fight reviews on my to do list I just haven't gotten around to doing them
I will disagree on Brienne's guard. It looks to me more like Joachim Meyer's guard Schlüssel, which has the blade in a similar position to Brienne's, although, Meyer's guard is of course more biomechanically efficient.
Easiest attack from Schlüssel is a thrust.
For the Bronn vs Ser Vardis Egan I always assumed that Bronn was overly playing how badly under classed he was and that he was purposefully trying to show how bad he was to in order to egg his opponent into assuming he was really bad... Sort of like the over played viking fight scene from the 13th Warrior. The early fights do look like they suffer from lack of time to get them down correctly, but as the actors have proceeded and as the series has progressed & they've realized they're actually making money from this it seems like the sword fights have gotten mostly better.
That guard...even though they are not really using it correctly (don't rest it on your arm) is called Schlüssel. When I use it, it is mostly transitional and not a guard I would recommend to "camp out" in during a fight.
the schussel is done with the blade vertically though
1.bp.blogspot.com/-nW9HphyLFxk/VpNfeVwN5oI/AAAAAAAACMU/vLZRcoo1zEc/s1600/Schl%25C3%25BCssel.jpg
yes... that is verical... notice the cross guard on the inside of the arm standing straight up
vertical means straight down
You said "with the blade vertically" not the cross guard.
you are aware the blade and guard go in the same direction right?
Its all fantasy anyway, still I bet many people in the real medieval age did some kind of "bad swordmanship", like many people use guns in the wrong way nowdays.
Peter Lannister If they relied on a weapon to survive then the incompetent practitioners would be "selected out"!
No doubt there were many poorly/un skilled swordsman in medieval times but these characters in GoT are supposed to be some of the most skilled in Westeros so they need to be convincing...
Yeah but Jamie Lanister is supposed to be a superb swordfighter.
They didnt focus that much on actual fights which bugged me out but when you think of it they post 10 episodes each lasting 1 hour each season which i'm not sure how long it lasts , so yeah you cant have it all perfect.
Ehm. As a fencer I can tell you that Syrio's fighting is far from being "not effective". There was not much shown of him, but what you saw was someone knowing what he was doing. Btw, the actor is trained in sword fighting and used it many years on the stage.
And right in the beginning of your post you disqualify it yourself. Fencing is sport, has almost nothing to do with martial arts. Sure, I thought right away he knows a bit about fencing, but I was still utterly unsurprised that he was curb stomped by someone who.. well, fought to kill.
beageler Doesnt matter how often I read it, I cant find the part where I call it a martial arts. But the most fun part is that Martial Arts is a sport. And fencing is officially listed as a Martial Arts. As someone who is actually teaching it, I know it. I have no fucking idea why you thought you need to piss in my soup, especially without knowing shit..., but you failed hard. Sorry to disappoint you. Go to next video and try to correct someone there.
Nope, Today martial arts is used for sport predominantly, but they're the arts that are martial, so what fighting men do. By the way, I didn't know that util I wrote my post above, because I looked for the right word :-p
Yea you are just wrong. And no chance to discuss with you. Too bad.
martial art =/= sport.
Have you seen "For Honor" game? Got any thoughts about how they represent European fighting there?
i watched this because im high, im not even interested in game of thrones and don't ask me how i got here
How did you get here?
How did you get here?
How did u get here? I'm also high
srsly guys i don't remember -_-"
Im high too. Got here from financial market research...
In all my blade fight classes (Kali) I have been always taught the slash is to position and the stab is to kill? correct?
stabbing is more deadly but a slash could also easily kill someone
SnapJelly is sooo nit picky!!!! I LOVE IT!!! so much detail!!!
this is nothing mate, but if I would really point out all the details my videos would be about 2 hours long..
Too true good sir but you do have about 5-6 hundred percent on average (lol there no actual way to measure that) more detailed content than some the other ancient combat channels!
What do you think about the fights from Gladiator and Troy?
8:00 he was waiting for him to get tired. A very risky thing to do
I was just thinking about the Mountain and the hound fight's 3rd issue. I have no experience in sword fighting, but in martial arts, when you are fighting a person with a clear strength advantage (which in the universe of GOT, the mountain had a lot more reach and strength than his brother, even more so in the book's descriptions than even the difference with the actors), you always would use their strength against them as opposed to trying the counter-balance it with yours. Wouldn't that extend to how you would block with a sword and you would prefer to counter WITH the attacker's blow, as opposed to what this gentleman was suggesting and counter against the blow? Or maybe I just misunderstand his explanation completely.,
What about the fight between Hector and Achilles in the movie Troy? Is it any good?
u look like stifler with long hair
i like stifler
LMFAO :DDDD
YESSS
How much would having handcuffs like Jamie effect one's ability to fight with a sword?
depends on the size of your sword hilt and how far apart you can hold your hands
Even the books got that kind of stuff wrong. I mean, that one fight between the full armored knight vs the non-armored mercenary was really stupid. Seems like Mr. Martin doesn't know much about armor.
A great point is first, you are very good and do great videos. You made good points. There are varying degrees of skill and it's TV. Even in martial arts movies, it's about what looks good on film. The individual skills vary but you 'sell it'. Many of the greats were and are very skilled. But there's no excuse for bad fight scenes or lousy swordplay
@SnapJelly : This guard used by Jaimy Lannister is called the Schlüssel guard (or "Key" guard). It is not commonly known, but it was practiced by alot of medieval swordsmen and knights! It sure has some disadvantages, but nonetheless, it is a real guard and it has its purposes! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing
You are welcome! :)
the key guard is done with the blade vertically, for the reasons I pointed out
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/8c/7d/e5/8c7de552aea258d50f94a78a3fbbab65.jpg
A vertical guard like that is the Ochs guard you are reffering to.
haven't even watched the show but watching sword fights from it is painful. i'm not super realism, i totally get why they don't go halfswording all the time and why they deflect blows with the sharp parts of their weapons, but the ones i watched were painfully telegraphed and slow which not only failed realism but failed the cool factor too, with each blow looking like they think "well this time it's gonna hit for sure, better make it count" and not "if i'll attack i might get an opening". i do understand why, but i wish they planned each sword fight more so they'll be able to make a few quick ones.
i almost started the next Video, but your hair pulled me back!! :) ;)
Cool Video dude!
just a quick reminder, never turn autofocus on again in the future. great video btw!
How did you mount your crates to the wall? I need to do that. Looks like you have some pretty heavy books in them.
bronn vs vardis fight i think bronn was just making him tired and wearing him out. and when bronn got an opening he took it.
Schlüssel guard... yes, it's not a great universal guard you can use all day long, but it is used. Blade is retracted back, so it is not that easy to strike it. One of the basic moves from it is initiating with a thrust, long edge towards the opponent's blade, he strikes it away and you follow with a cut from a direction, where opponent's sword was before
the schlussel is done with the blade vertically
th-cam.com/video/ya_jp28Mr9A/w-d-xo.html Maybe we have different ideas about what the Schlüssel is...
eeehm… in that video they're doing it with the blade vertically like I said you should
Ohh, i see, sorry. I really overlooked it.. I thought by vertically you mean position like in vom tag or something like that..
oh I see the confusion :P
no I meant point forward, arms tucked in with the guard pointing up
what's your background? are you a world class swordsman? did you study sword fighting?
you know you can just click on my channel and find out...
I will do that for sure. I wasn't trying to a dick, I was just curious on your background.
so I checked out your channel but still didn't answer my question. I am just going to assume now that your educated in sword fighting.
Greetings, Snapjelly! Quick question: Are you married to the idea of exclusively reviewing swordfights from Game of Thrones? Because there are all sorts of other movies and TV shows that have impressive-looking swordfights of their own (the final fight in Shanghai Knights against the fencer with the dual-wielded sabers springs readily to mind, though there are a whole mess of medieval films full of sword fighting as well) that I would love to see deconstructed.
nah mate, I have plenty of things I want to talk about just not enough time to get it all done as fast as I want :P
please remain patient there is a bunch of interesting stuff coming in the near future! ^^
Ehh, that's not quite what Bronn was trying to do. He was trying to tire ser Vardis out and wear him down. He knew he wasn't as armored and less skilled than ser Vardis, so he didn't take too many risks while also letting him make a few swings he knew he could deflect. He takes cheap shots when he knows he can get away with it because he doesn't fight with honor and his opponent does. He's the kind of fighter who exploits his opponents which isn't a bad strategy at all.
The only actor in the show that i'd really flak is Nikolaj Coster-Waldau(totally didn't Google spellcheck), not because he's not good with a sword, but because he pretends to know anything about swordsmanship.
Yea, the auto focus is one thing, Could you possibly give yourself room to move when giving the demonstrations? Get out of that corner and find a room or park that has enough space where you don't have to worry about smashing everything in the room!
Why didn't bronn counter? Coz narrative. The narrative is more important.
We just introduced bronn and we can say a lot about his character with this fight sequence. There might be other ways, but if this is the best we have then I would make the same decision. It's just not that important.
well the mountain and the hound holding back against each other would make since with the lore, being brothers and all. mountain was pissed and the hound just buys time for the king to intervene
They also went through their Itinerary in their heads, while fighting with deadly weapons, started because of bubbling tempers.
Maybe that Jaime Lannister guard is an imitation of posta di fenestra from italian longsword fencing?
Again, as always in film- shields are used as counter weights to your sword swing not actually a shield between you and the opponent. Might happen with a militia but not an experience footman.