@@frankzappa9853I don’t think it was that - I think he had genuine concerns about the humanity of the situation, but like the creator said in the video - he simply had no logical arguments for keeping him alive, so appealed to people’s emotions. I don’t think leadership or power was a concern of his at all.
Holy moly, you’re right! I didn’t even realize that until I read your comment. Why wasn’t that scene (or one like it) in the show? It woulda been interesting to see, depending on if it’s just Dale and Randal or maybe another character like Shane, Rick or even Daryl was there.
Interesting point! Perhaps Dales concern wasn’t even if Randall was guilty or not but rather the fact that there was no sentence that could be passed that would be both practical for their current survival predicament and satisfactory to his moral sensibilities. While I admit it’s admirable to try keeping faith and goodwill in all of human kind in a zombie apocalypse, it’s also a gamble and Randall shot first then later confessed that his group (and likely he as well) were rapist marauders - why even roll the dice a second time?
@@ghostwriter1440 yeah that episode was really annoying because yeah sure maybe it wasn't the most ethical thing but they couldn't afford to trust him or let him go and keeping him prisoner is just impractical and he would escape eventually and possibly hurt or kill someone on his way out and the safest and most logical thing would be to execute him, and honestly he tried to kill them, given the chance he would kill any of them and if let free he would gladly lead his people there to kill all of them, if he cares so little about their lives then why should they care so much about his, and I know Dale's argument would be we can't stoop to their level and if we kill him we're no better than them but that's a false argument, having mercy on someone who is a clear threat to their group when they have no practical means of holding him is just plain stupid, it doesn't make you a monster to eliminate a threat to your livelihood, sure if they had the power and resources to hold him and carry out some sort of prison sentence then it would be a different story but they don't and keeping him alive is just a threat to them, I honestly don't know why Dale couldn't see that and why anyone even listened to him
@@TheRealCaptainGold thanks for replying 😅 it just cracked me up because it’s such a poignant and hilarious way to say, “just because you’re old, doesn’t mean you’re smart.”
Finished the vid. So yeah you're totally correct, but like, isn't that the whole point of Dale's character. He's the emotional tether to the old world, appealing to people's emotions so they don't lose their humanity in the new uncaring world.
Rick. We have to keep in mind that Rick in Season 2 isn't like the current Rick we know now. I recall Hershel was in favor of leaving Randall. Glenn was busy looking out for the walkers and warning them about walkers coming.
@@SCH292 Rick doesn’t need to be badass Rick to make a logical decision. Taking in someone who just a few seconds ago was firing at you, & probably planning on raiding your camp if they could find it doesn’t seem like a wise decision. More than likely it was a way to have some tension in the story.
@@Sun-Warrior1911 From a tactical perspective, POWs are better than casualties. They can defect to your side, can provide intel, can be used as a bargaining chip in negotiations, can be used as hostages or meat shields, can be used as propaganda, can be used as free manual labor, etc. Barring any ethical concerns, it’s always better to take prisoners if you can afford it. Get what you need and either dispose of them or get them to join you.
@@TheRealCaptainGold That makes sense but it was explained why they couldn’t do that in an episode. The risks vs rewards wasn’t worth it. It would be extra eyes to keep on him instead of on the walkers or potential future foes, the possibility of him escaping and getting back to his camp, even if he supposedly defects can you 100% trust him? The whole point I’m trying to make is that they weren’t stable enough to take prisoners from the start to begin with. Leave him to die by the walkers would’ve been the better choice imo!!
@@Sun-Warrior1911 If Randall wasn’t a bad guy, bringing him back would’ve been a net benefit. But he clearly wasn’t worth the risk of assimilation. Especially at the farm. That’s where Dale was ultimately wrong. Randall wasn’t a good person and all the evidence pointed towards it.
I love Dale as a character but he didn't realise the gravity of the situation that randall had caused. He would have killed Rick, Glenn and Hershel. This makes his argument redundant in my eyes.
Ironically, Rick's group eventually adopt Dale's philosophy and they start reforming people who were previously their enemies. Negan is a prime example, but there is plenty of others. Taking it a bit further to elaborate on that, Rick's choice to not retain his humanity and attack Negan's outpost eventually resulted in Abraham and Glenn's deaths. While it seems to be a case by case situation for each person, his group does eventually start following Dale's advice. While they are completely opposite of each other, both Dale and Shane were way ahead of the rest of the group, just in different ways, and both of them contributed long term to the groups survival, even though they both died early on. All that said, I did find Dale a bit annoying and the only solution for Randall at the time was to just kill him. They should have never brought him back to the farm. lol
@panspermiapancakes I totally get what you're saying. In that world it's kill or be killed. Shane was way ahead of his time and wish he could've sorted his differences out with 'WRECK.' The tipping point for me is he went to school with Maggie. Even though he said he didn't know where she lived that could be complete BS. I would've shot him there and then, which Shane tried to do but Rick was still in his 'we don't kill the living' mentality.
@@danielallen6178 Killing him does seem logical in that situation at the school but as early on in the ZA as it was, I probably would have taken Rick's stance simply because he was unarmed and it would feel weird murdering him, I'm just not sure if I would have stopped Shane from doing it, because I think I would have let him. lol For me personally, I'd have left him to his fate when he was stuck on the fence, mainly because he had been trying to kill Rick's group just seconds prior when he was given an option to leave in peace. lol
@panspermiapancakes true, why the hell try save a kid that would've killed you. Then probably gone down to the farm and killed everyone else. Story over. I would've let Shane do it. That was his final turn to insanity. Most people think it was when he killed otis, but many people would've done the same thing. They both would have died if he didn't kill otis.
@@CryptbloomEnjoyer An expression used to tug at emotional strings and not used to justify any substantive argument. Cap is right. Not surprising some people still disagree - most ppl can’t critically think to save their lives. 👁👄👁
i love his videos but to spend a minute and thirty seconds on explaining that dale calling randall a kid was just kinda like 😐 it’s a fucking term i don’t think dale meant it as deep as the video explained it
@@heiscalledinvinciblenotinv68 saying that alpha would destroy the survivors is an absolute long shot and probably a pretty big lie season 5 survivors were absolutely at their peak in terms of numbers skills and experience the only real reason that negan made the impact that he did is because after arriving at Alexandria Rick and the group after all their trials were led into a false sense of security that they were unbeatable they became soft and in the end that cost them. Negan himself saw Rick and the group from season 5 said he would not mess with them back then. Would destroy the group of survivors is probably a long shot if anything they would have been better prepared and more mentally on edge to fight The whisperers
Even if he used emotional fallacies to manipulate the way the group thought about Randall, whether he was a kid or not, it's not like they themselves cared about the technical definition of the words 'kid' or 'young man.' They did know what Dale meant. It likely wouldn't have impacted their thought processes. Language isn't about perfection, but about conveying the idea clearly.
When it comes to the kid thing, Dale probably does see Randal as a kid because at his age he mine as well be a kid. That said, it is nonetheless still an emotional fallacy he uses to tug on heart strings so others can agree with him on that situation.
That is highly true however Dale is forgetting one thing. This kid is a member of a group that attacked Rick, Glenn, and Hershel earlier him firing shots at them too. An we saw all of that and these 3 saw all of that and knows he is a danger considering the group he was with prefers to shot people they meet.
@@silentecho92able I don’t think he is necessarily forgetting that. Afterall, peace was made with a few groups later in TWD that started initially as hostile. Though, I do agree with your point overall considering how this was the first time this had happened in TWD.
@@JoeyMace28 Yeah i agree with you too but seen's this roughly say 4-5 months seens the apocalypse started it hard to trust a lot of people. I mean Rick group met the Vatos gang the previous season. It could have gone either way with them too. Dale ain't wrong in appealing to people morality. But that's a double edge sword in the world they live in. Its like telltales walking dead 400 days on Shel & Becca story. Where the group they were they caught a stranger sneaking into camp who only speaks Portuguese. An if you let him go one of your own a guy named Boyd is killed. Cause this stranger led his people back to where you are. Its a tough dilemma but sometimes hardest decision can be for the best a better safe then sorry kind of thing.
As a longtime fan of TWD I love these videos analyzing the older seasons’ characters. Always super insightful and makes me reconsider my viewpoint of some characters!
Dale was using emotional fallacies but he was also a dinosaur. Everyone was a kid to him. He like all men, remembered being young and stupid. You got stuck on something that just doesn’t exist. He wanted them to give Randal a chance because he really believed he could redeem himself and become a functional member of society.
@@LedZedd yeah kinda, still he sees dales death as a sign to return to moral. After Dale Hershel became the moral compass of the group even though it wasnt exactly like Dale.
If everyone heeded his moralizing, they'd probably all be dead. He was hanging on to a morality meant for a civic society that didn't exist anymore. This channel went over the distinction between survival ethics and normative ethics in a previous video. He wasn't a moral compass, he was a conduit of sentimental moralizing.
The problem with dales kind of arguments (and half a dozen other scenes throughout the show where a character would randomly become dale-esque for a single conversation...) Is that the whole thing can be derailed with simply demanding an alternative to what he thinks is wrong...and then quickly being told to stop talking if they can't add anything.. The other problem is that the show requires the other characters to pretend the above isn't an option so the entirely pointless conversation can happen to pad the run time
I mean, im 30 and i consider 20 year olds to be kids because i can compare myself then to now and there is a gulf of maturity between a young adult and adult, such always comes when personal growth occurs The difference with Dale is level of personal responsibility, i consider both an 8 yr old and 13 yr old to be young kids but i would lay more responsibility on a 13 year olds decisions, Randall had committed awful crimes that even being a "kid" wouldnt lessen
I think that whole episode was for the audience to have a debate, what was Dale's position? To lock Randall up in a nonexistent jail? To put him on trial when everyone watched him trying to kill members of your group? Dale's stance was always ridiculous
Yeah it really was ridiculous, if they had the power and resources to carry out some sort of prison sentence then it would of given Dale's argument more weight, but with their current situation what exactly would be Dale's plan if they decided not to kill him? If he had an actual plan that would ensure the groups safety then again his argument might have more weight, but his only argument was "we can't kill him because it's wrong" even though he posed a massive threat to the group
. Let’s be fair: in shows such as TWD, we tend to see those who express mercy as stupid, weak, nonsensical. Dale could have had the most well thought out argument ever made, we’d still want Randall killed. I wanted Randall killed. I loved Dale, but I wanted him to shut up. I wanted an outlet. Many viewers are the same. In real life, we’d give what Dale says more weight and thought. Because it would be a real situation. In a TV show, we tend to go towards the more violent options with far less trouble, because the people there are not real. No one actually gets hurt.
@Ares99999 I think you would have a very hard time putting up with a Dale in the real world. Maybe Dale was trying to hold onto the past, that could be fair but it doesn't look like it he didn't even talk the "kid"
@@Ares99999 I think TH-cam censored my comment so I will try and say it in a way the algorithm doesn't remove it. But no if I was in Ricks shoes he wouldn't have even made it back to our base I would have dealt with him in the field.
My coworkers call me kid and boy all the time, I'm 20 and they are on their 50-60 and it's not just a couple of them it's most of them. 20 and 30 isn't that far away for you to see them as kids unlike a old man
Remember when dale warned rick about teaching his son to shoot first and ask later, and carl later murdered a teenager in the middle of surrendering? 🤷♂️
Yeah, but Rick didn’t shoot first and ask later. He saved Randall, had Hershel take care of his injury and proceeded to debate with his group what the appropriate course of action should be. Dale’s comment to Rick was unimaginably stupid given those facts. Rick didn’t even shoot first and ask later with Dave and Tony lol
@TheRealCaptainGold while at the time it wasn't a good point to make because of the circumstances, Rick did ultimately make that impression on Carl. And the lack of moral compass from Dale and the arguments he made early on tend to come full circle.
@@Irishfrasa Carl did what he did because Rick didn’t get rid of risks that came back to hurt the group (the prisoner who’s actions led to Lori’s death) and because he was responsible for Dale’s death. Not because Rick influenced Carl to be a cold killer. Rick wasn’t a shoot first and ask later guy until Season 5. Watch the show mate. Regardless, my point stands. It was a very stupid point to make given Rick didn’t set the example Dale was arguing against. It was a straw man and an appeal to emotion.
@TheRealCaptainGold Rick never sat Carl down and explained why things went as they did (that I can remember, not really about to rewatch the show a third time to double check). And instead trusted a child (in the literal sense not Dale's sense) to carry a deadly weapon with no real examples of responsibility to that point. Carl killing that teen was a failure on Rick's part as a father just as much as it was Carl being unstable and rash. Edit:but you are right about rick not being a shoot first guy til the murder jacket era. And while Dale's points don't stand up to a logical hindsight, from the perspective of people not even living in that world, he was clearly doing everything he could to protect some form of group morality.
@@Irishfrasa In that exact moment, I’d place the blame on Hershel. He was the only adult present at that exact moment. But yes, you could say it was Rick’s fault for not sitting down Carl an explaining it to him. Granted, it was also the first time Carl ever had to deal with potentially engaging live people in combat - the entire time, Rick was getting him situated to survival. And to be fair to Rick, he called off Randall’s execution because he didn’t want Carl to witness it. Dale was just wrong to make that argument. You’re stretching really hard for a claim that failed to materialize as being solid. That claim would work better if used on Season 5 Rick. Prior to that, Rick always tried to avoid killing people. So much so that Carl disagreed with his father on that matter, initially.
You're wrong on "just a kid" part. Older people use this saying all the time, they're not trying to use an emotional fallacy. I'm 37 and from my point of view at 20 years old you are in fact an adult, but just barely. People Dale's age could call me a kid, from their point of view I may very well be one. It's all relative. He's not actually trying to argue that he's not of age, it means that he's young and inexperienced. For the record, I somewhat disagree with Dale. Safety is paramount, but I do think that his age should be considered at least.
Honestly I think you’re harping on the definition of the word kid too much. Lots of people view 20 year olds as kids, like tons of people I know. Kid is a very ambiguous term and does not really have a clear definition for your regular person. If he used the word “child” I would agree with that point a bit more but describing an immature 20 year old as a kid is pretty common..
Think u didn't watch the video lol, this guy's right, he harps on it way too much for something that is super common, almost every person I know considers 20 yr olds kids in the sense that they aren't a child, but theyre young and figuring it out, therefore the term kid is pretty reasoable@@Halo47143
Dale was the Humanity in the group the moment he was killed off the show got alot more brutal and they stopped taking riskes with new people. Dale was the heart of the show the only one who had a decent shred of Humanity left in him. Best character IMO
This is one reason why I liked Hershel better. Hershel was a man of principle, yet he also did not allow his emotions to blind him, or not as badly as Dale.
Dale only makes emotional appeals and does nothing actually productive to help the group. He makes for a good neighbor to vent to, but not a good party member for the zombie apocalypse. He loves drama not action.
Dude I was going such a binge with your videos! I absolutely love the way you analyze them along with mixing it with a bit of comedy! also I think your voice is cute af
Let's be real here, regardless of the kid angle, it's an apocalypse and it's man vs man vs zombies. Emotions have no bearing in a life or death situation,in fact, they'll likely get you killed. In order to survive, you need to be logical and pragmatic. Randall was a danger to the group previously and would likely be again. Holding him prisoner is a drain on resources and he's not going to contribute to the group, so that's a moot point. You can't let him go because he'd likely link back up with his old group or a new one entirely, almost certainly come back and kill your group for your resources, so that's a no-go too. Randall HAS to be dealt with accordingly, he's of no benefit to the group as a prisoner and he can't be trusted to be set free, so that only leaves death as the safest option. It's Randall or the group. Circling back to the kid topic, remember Lizzie? You know,the girl that was feeding the walkers, causing all sorts of problems for the group, killed her own sister so she'd become a walker and was getting ready to kill an infant Judith so she could do the same? Yeah, kid or not, she was an insane and a huge liability, she HAD to be put down. I don't think there's one person out there that would argue that on the "she's just a kid" premise, Lizzie was too far gone and would've doomed the group if she were left alive. So,while Randall was more a wild card,as opposed to Lizzie who was clearly and obviously a danger, he needed to be taken out of the equation. He was an adult, made his own decisions to link up with a deranged group, attacked Rick's group of his own free will and should suffer the consequences of his actions. It's just that simple, it's the group or Randall, the group will decide on the best course of action for the group.
people still talking about S2 over a decade later just makes me so happy. when i watched twd i was on the last year of everyone hating it and saying it was the worst season. now it's the most discussed season over the years. it just shows that good storytelling really does matter.
Dale is a character that people think they like, but thanks to people like you, you’ve given us information that paints Dale as a completely different character. I did like Dales character, but I do agree with your points. Plus, if Dale was willing to stand up to that “kid”, you’d think he would want to hear Randles side of things. So while Dale has his flaws, his guts being ripped open by a walker while he was alive is something that not even he deserved. Still, even though his character has flaws, he’s a character you’d like to have around, but probably not during the apocalypse. 🤣
Dale was the oldest and most married to the old world, he was the heart and the hope for returning to civilization, and all his appeals are a crucial part of functioning civilization but he never quite figured out (or maybe admitted) that the old world was dead. If he lived in the United States of America he would be correct, you have to show mercy. If you're at war with an inexplicably hostile foreign expansionary power in the middle of zombie infested wilderness listening to him is certain death.
I don’t like how you base it off of societal norms like “when you can enlist” or “when you can purchase tabaco” because that fluctuates throughout the world so technically you are a smooth brain too 😂
This reminds me of Captain America Civil War where one of the main arguments between Captain America and Iron Man was that Iron Man basically put Scarlet Witch under house arrest for several reasons (she was unfairly blamed by the UN for multiple deaths that wasn't really her fault, she's not US citizen, she's stateless and technically an illegal immigrant, etc; thus not putting her under house arrest would mean that she would be put into actual prison) and Captain America strongly opposed this because she's just a "kid", eventhough she's a young adult. Never once Cap mentioned things like, "She was trying to save people and us", "It wasn't her fault", "It would've been worse if she wasn't there". Honestly, it felt almost like even he somewhat agreed that she made a mistake, he just didn't want her to be punished in any way for that supposed mistake and yet he made no real argument to defend her. He was being emotional while Iron Man was being logical and practical.
People need to understand that pointing out the fact that someone is utilizing a logical fallacy has no bearing on the correctness of that person's claim.
I agree that he was making an appeal to emotion and trying to maintain a certain semblance of the world he knew but quite simply, the world isn't the same world they knew anymore. The world they're in isn't a forgiving world and that semblance that they knew is gone and have to acclimate to the circumstances they're in. For the argument of Randell being a kid, considering in this usage is subjective term, I'm going to use Carl as an example. Carl is a kid, Objective and Subjective use of the term. He's not fully matured, and he's forced to grow up quickly in a world that is unforgiving. In the scene after the prison, he's forced to take care of his dad and sweep the house of Walkers. While sweeping the house, he comes across a game console with a bunch of games he would've like to play. holding the games in his hands looks up at the tv and sees his own reflection a complete stranger to who he used to be. Carl shouldn't have to deal with this, the reality is he is dealing with it and has to. Emotions in this circumstance has to take the back seat and why we classify Emotions as Subjective. You have to match the reality you're in. Until you can rebuild humanity from the ground up, you don't have a choice.
Thank you for your thoughts on old people calling anyone and everyone younger a kid. But for Dale’s arguments I am kinda wary to think the writers for TWD were actually skilled enough to consider any of that.
I just found this channel and spent the morning binging these videos. And then as if made just for me a new video drops for me to continue the train rolling lol
Looking back on Dale he was a kind've annoying character. At first I saw him as the group's moral center but now I kinda view him as the guy who stuck his nose in everyone else's business. Sure he cared about Andrea but she wasn't his family or responsibility so when she wanted to stay at the CDC it should've been her choice. Then he took her gun away again he had no right to do that. Then he also got on Glenn's case for being with Maggie again not his business. Both liked each other and were adults, Dale also made assumptions about Shane. Yea he was there when Shane raised his gun on Rick but he didn't know the context. Shane was pissed , because he didn't want Rick to put the group at the camp in danger by leaving and they lost a lot of people. At that point, Shane was the leader he lost ppl he was responsible for. Plus Rick implies he didn't care about Lori & Carl the same way he did. With all that context I view the moment of Shane aiming at Rick as a momentary lapse in judgment allowing his rage to get the better of him but he wasn't gonna shoot him. Dale saw this and didn't address it at all. Even in the episode what Lies ahead he still seemed on friendly terms with Shane. He only addressed the incident after again getting overprotective of Andrea, towards Shane. And also using Otis's death to justify his poor perception of Shane. Again he wasn't there and yet he treated Shane as an evil monster without knowing what really went down. Shane was just too angry to defend or deny Dales negative perception of him. Plus I view Shane giving Otis a heroic sounding death as kinda a way of doing penance for killing him. But also he tried to justify it over and over again to make it seem like he wasn't guilty. "He had no business being here...There whatever ". I think he tried to basically rationalize it as "Otis was weak" , "Otis was a liability", "Otis shot Carl, it's all his fault." If Shane really was a monster like Dale assumed he wouldn't have had to justify his actions or reacted so angrily to him judging him after the Barn shootout.
Yeah he really was annoying and stuck his nose in everyone's business, and he was honestly just stupid sometimes like he would let his emotions get in the way of what was clearly the most logical and the best decision for the group
Dale is clearly not calling Randall a child. He's still trying to appeal to emotions, however because hes not a fucking nerd and is relying on morals. Do you believe morals are illogical and a falacy?
Agreed, as a 22 year old I've had my 42 year old coworker refer to me as both a "Grown man" and a "Young stupid kid" lmao but I know that I am a young-man. Even new's articles, there was with 20 year old asian who died recently, can't remember where or from, but even the headlines said "20 YEAR OLD MAN DIED IN ACCIDENT" It's all just a big nitpick, but it's true. When someone older calls a young adult a 'kid' it's usually meant in an ambiguous way, a more ironic way. Like, almost to say, "you're like a kid to me" so it's purely subjective. Using it in Dale's context, c'mon. The real world would've tried him as an adult, why even try to make him sound like a kid? And why didn't you Dale, go talk to the kid anyway?
I never would have thought that this would have been a discussion, that dales intentions by calling dude kid and boy wasn't obvious. But I'm glad you did a video on it.
I fucking love your analysis on what fallacies are since I think a lot of people really don't know how to identify them at all, which is really really important for understanding how to break down the argument of the person you're arguing/discussing with. I think though, to be honest, your mode of analysis may be a little debate-bro coded, which is fine but it allows some of your points to fall a bit short. On your part of the video breaking down semantical points of what a kid is, I don't think the actual dictionary definition or even that much the social or functional definition has much to do with Dale's intentions or view of Randall. Yes, it is a proven fact that Randall is in his early 20's in TWD universe, but this isn't something that is explicit in the show simply because the characters have no way of knowing this. As someone who is around Randall's age, I literally viewed Randall as a kid or boy, a literal fucking minor. Rewatching the episode just now, I'm sure Dale, in terms of how the character thinks, also viewed him as an actual kid. This isn't to say that Dale wasn't employing several emotional fallacies, but just to maybe give the character a bit of light in terms of how you portray his intentions. Terrific video though. Would love to see more creators who make videos on The Walking Dead with as much analytical poise as you.
Just binge watched your vids, your scripts are really well written and I think you include a good amount of your own personal opinion that really ties the videos together. Your channel is gonna blow up soon!
People who will get annoyed about this video, he says in the description this video is " a petty response to some comments made on an older video". He isn't actually being this obnoxious (i think) its suppose to be a bit.
Great video, but it's definitely comes off as like your degrading some of your points. Calling people ignorant whether they are or not isn't going to get your point across better. Then bring up facts in a yet again degrading way and insulting the views that disargreed doesn't help any more. Then, in the last 2 minutes, said that Dale has Dimentia, which he clearly doesn't in a video that is about Emotial Falicies, which you literally just used left a bad taste in my mouth. Still good video though keep up the content.
Never said Dale had dementia lol I said he **isn’t** a dementia ridden retiree who thinks everyone is a kid. Just gotta clarify that - I don’t want to be misrepresented. That bad taste was a result of not listening carefully, unfortunately. That said, I really don’t care if I’m insulting to people. The right to have an opinion doesn’t obligate me to respect said opinion. If that’s somehow harmful to someone’s emotional health, they need to definitely not be apart of any potentially contentious discourse.
Damn, when did you become so savage? 😂 I love it. I found you on some of your older videos, so this was a complete surprise. Also idk why ppl get so offended, you aren't saying that Dale is a bad guy or anything.
Should have left Randall to die and not risked future issues. The group at that point was still ignorant of their new reality and Dale was the most oblivious of what it was going to take to survive in the world. He was going to get himself or others killed sooner or later. It was a net positive when he was killed.
I can see where you're coming from but I definitely have known a lot of people who are even in their early 30s- mid 40s who have and still do refer to people in their early 20s as kids regularly not in some kind of demeaning way just how they see someone younger who's really just starting life
Yes dale did try to pull on the group's heart strings to get them to spare Randall it was a person's life after all but Randall just wasn't who dale was trying paint him out to be he was somebody far more twisted
Dale was a good person but he cared too much about people that shouldn't matter to him as much as his own group/family also great video dude. I love these kinds of videos and it helps when u have someone that knows what they are talking about
In a world where even "kids" can be menaces, the argument shouldn't be whether or not they're a boy, it should be whether or not they can fit into the group and how much they can bring to the table. Let's imagine for a second that Randal was actually a kid, like 12 years old or something. They try to get him assimilated but at what point does his attitude change? Is it even worth the investment? That should've been the cusp of the argument, Dale's diversion does more harm to the group than it does any good.
I don't think your argument is any better, if he was 12 he could easily assimilate into the group because he would be more easily influenced and listen to their authority, and he's less likely to rebel and be a threat, and he could become very useful to the group, but Randall isn't 12 he's 20 and he tried to kill several members of the group, they can't trust him to stay or become part of the group and they can't just let him go because he will surely lead his people back to kill them and take their resources, they have no practical means to keep him prisoner, he will most likely escape and could possibly kill someone in the process, even if he didn't escape Randall would be a constant drain on their resources and honestly how long can they keep him locked up in the barn having someone watch him day and night, as long as he's alive he is a major threat to the group and that's just not a risk they can afford to take, so I honestly don't even know where your argument comes into play, he tried to kill several members of the group and he can't be trusted to just stay and become part of the group, even if they could trust him to become part of the group there's no reason why they should want him to become part of the group, your argument has nothing to do with the situation, it's pretty simple, they can't trust him to stay, they can't just let him go, they can't keep him prisoner, and he poses a major risk to the group, the only logical solution is to kill him
randall shouldent have died. his group was murderious, if you wanna live fast you live alone, if you wanna go far you go with a group. yes, he shot at them, but what was he supposed to do? he was no r@pist.
I love Dale a lot, and his last episode is one of my favorites, but sadly, I agree with you. He used emotional arguments to prove his points... Rick's good human values, Glenn's following, Andrea's debt and her lawyer's job, Hershel's religion... Which ALL of them have nothing to do with the suspicions people have for Rendall. He is kinda a kid because he looks like a teen... but when you are with a group that some of them tried to kill Rick, Glenn and Hershel... That doesn't help them! Mostly when Dave and the big guy weren't friendly overall and big mouthed... Yes, it's theories and suppositions, but when you consider someone as a potential threat... You gotta make a big move! Dale wanted to keep the humanity of everyone, but his arguments were based on emotional arguments instead of suspicious which Hershel, Glenn, Rick and Daryl (who made him talked) had the proofs, which aren't always good points. There it is!
the way randal acts, carries himself, and generally looks isnt much different from a highschooler thats way in over his head he isnt some hardened killer he is a baby faced dumbass that got that far into the end of the world by sheer luck so in that aspect id probably call him a kid too also your entire argument is based on the question of killing randal or not killing randal to be a smart argument based on logic and reason which it isnt, its based around paranoia to the point that murdering someone unironically is on the table dales perfectly right to use emotional fallacies because everyone on the other side was fear mongering due to it being the zombie outbreak
While dale may have many emotional fallacies I feel like they made his character this way to keep the humanity left in the cast & not go off the deep end but despite all that I’m always gonna be 50/50 with the Andrea situation because he did exactly what she did 💀😂 but she mad. Yes it was emotional manipulation but she didn’t have to stay they both would be dead. If he died she’d be sad even though she would have died to, if she died he would be sad as well. All dale did was do what she was doing it was just from a different perspective or reason.
I mean honestly what is there to talk about? He tried to kill several members of their group, they can't just let him go or trust him to stay because he will surely bring his people back to kill them and take their stuff, they have no practical means to keep him prisoner, he will either escape and possibly kill someone in the process or he would just be a constant drain on their resources and honestly how long can they just keep him locked up in the barn having someone watch him day and night, there is no practical reason to keep him alive and as long as he is alive he is a major threat to the group and that just isn't a risk they should take, I mean honestly what would be a practical solution to keep him alive that would ensure the groups safety, that wouldn't put the group at risk and that wouldn't be a drain on their resources? If you ask me there really isn't a decision
ts is tough i feel like i graduated from college, Dale is the goat tho hes nice or whatever, and I think Dale was right over shane, just cuz of the fact that Dale wanted the group to not turn into mosters, even if they shouldve killed randall.
Honestly I think he was the only one that kept his moral compass Rick became so much like Dale over the years. I feel like we shouldn't make fun of him because he was right like you can't be judged jury and execution you have to do the right thing. Yes of course if someone is a threat but you have to deal with it, but remember that there have to be something after everything can't just be violence. Plus his death was so brutal carol could have died in that field...
Dales arugment is based on emotions but your argument is based of FEAR not facts you talk about all the fear of what Randal could do but not what he would do. If he was a hardened killer hed take out Rick, Hershel and Glenn by shooting them before he got ate by walkers. Also tons of old people call 20 year olds kids and honestly a lot of them act like them.
I'm not killing anyone until they absolutely prove they need to be handled in an extreme way or have a background that leads me to believe they would be a problem later on. People can change, and deserve a second chance if they truly want to change. Randal has proven he has done or at least condoned some fucked shit, so it would definitely push me to believe he wouldn't make true on his word. Dale didn't know this though and genuinely a good person, and emotional manipulation? It should also apply to Andrea as well should it not? She wanted to die, thus Dale stayed because he didn't want to loose her too, that clearly using emotion as well. Also an 18 year old is likely getting called a kid by really anyone 30 and over, as they are still young in comparison. I believe Dale's he's merely using the term to convey that he's still young and hasn't experienced life like the rest.
Dale's argument has no weight, Randall tried to kill several members of their group, they can't trust him to stick around and become part of the group, they can't just let him go because he will surely bring his group back to kill them and take their resources, they have no practical means to keep him prisoner, he would either escape eventually and possibly kill someone in the process or even if he didn't escape he would be a constant drain on their resources and honestly how long can they keep him locked up in the barn having someone watch him day and night, as long as Randall is alive he poses a major threat to the group and that's a threat they really can't afford to risk, there's no logical reason to keep him alive, he's only endangering the group, even if he could change and turn his life around that's just not a risk they can take
I think they should’ve killed Randall once he revealed that he went to school with Maggie. I was always confused about why he mentioned he knew Maggie to complete strangers.. can someone explain that to me
You know Gold is right when the disagreements in the comments all amount to “it’s not that deep” and “you’re just wrong cuz I say so” 🤡 People can’t just admit when they’ve been beaten.
Otis woulda sniped the kid
💀
😂
💀💀💀💀
Coooorrrrralll!😂
I love how dale fought so hard for Randal but never went and had one conversation with “the kid” himself
That's a very good point it was like Dale was trying to become the leader because it definitely wasn't about Randal or what was good for the group
@@frankzappa9853I don’t think it was that - I think he had genuine concerns about the humanity of the situation, but like the creator said in the video - he simply had no logical arguments for keeping him alive, so appealed to people’s emotions. I don’t think leadership or power was a concern of his at all.
Holy moly, you’re right! I didn’t even realize that until I read your comment. Why wasn’t that scene (or one like it) in the show? It woulda been interesting to see, depending on if it’s just Dale and Randal or maybe another character like Shane, Rick or even Daryl was there.
Interesting point!
Perhaps Dales concern wasn’t even if Randall was guilty or not but rather the fact that there was no sentence that could be passed that would be both practical for their current survival predicament and satisfactory to his moral sensibilities.
While I admit it’s admirable to try keeping faith and goodwill in all of human kind in a zombie apocalypse, it’s also a gamble and Randall shot first then later confessed that his group (and likely he as well) were rapist marauders - why even roll the dice a second time?
@@ghostwriter1440 yeah that episode was really annoying because yeah sure maybe it wasn't the most ethical thing but they couldn't afford to trust him or let him go and keeping him prisoner is just impractical and he would escape eventually and possibly hurt or kill someone on his way out and the safest and most logical thing would be to execute him, and honestly he tried to kill them, given the chance he would kill any of them and if let free he would gladly lead his people there to kill all of them, if he cares so little about their lives then why should they care so much about his, and I know Dale's argument would be we can't stoop to their level and if we kill him we're no better than them but that's a false argument, having mercy on someone who is a clear threat to their group when they have no practical means of holding him is just plain stupid, it doesn't make you a monster to eliminate a threat to your livelihood, sure if they had the power and resources to hold him and carry out some sort of prison sentence then it would be a different story but they don't and keeping him alive is just a threat to them, I honestly don't know why Dale couldn't see that and why anyone even listened to him
Being old isn’t a f***ing intellectual achievement. 😅😅😅
OMG yes!!!! There are so many stupid old people.
It can be if you've experienced enough and have learned from it.
@@Reliford
The experience is the merit. Age, itself (in so far as adults are concerned), means nothing. Plenty of old folks who have zero wisdom.
@@TheRealCaptainGold Very well said.
@@TheRealCaptainGold thanks for replying 😅 it just cracked me up because it’s such a poignant and hilarious way to say, “just because you’re old, doesn’t mean you’re smart.”
Finished the vid. So yeah you're totally correct, but like, isn't that the whole point of Dale's character. He's the emotional tether to the old world, appealing to people's emotions so they don't lose their humanity in the new uncaring world.
Narratively speaking, yes you’re right.
@@TheRealCaptainGold 😘
@@conit4125
Thanks babe.
A BIGGER question is why the hell did they bring him to the farm to begin with?? There’s the head scratcher
Rick. We have to keep in mind that Rick in Season 2 isn't like the current Rick we know now.
I recall Hershel was in favor of leaving Randall. Glenn was busy looking out for the walkers and warning them about walkers coming.
@@SCH292 Rick doesn’t need to be badass Rick to make a logical decision. Taking in someone who just a few seconds ago was firing at you, & probably planning on raiding your camp if they could find it doesn’t seem like a wise decision. More than likely it was a way to have some tension in the story.
@@Sun-Warrior1911
From a tactical perspective, POWs are better than casualties. They can defect to your side, can provide intel, can be used as a bargaining chip in negotiations, can be used as hostages or meat shields, can be used as propaganda, can be used as free manual labor, etc.
Barring any ethical concerns, it’s always better to take prisoners if you can afford it. Get what you need and either dispose of them or get them to join you.
@@TheRealCaptainGold That makes sense but it was explained why they couldn’t do that in an episode. The risks vs rewards wasn’t worth it. It would be extra eyes to keep on him instead of on the walkers or potential future foes, the possibility of him escaping and getting back to his camp, even if he supposedly defects can you 100% trust him? The whole point I’m trying to make is that they weren’t stable enough to take prisoners from the start to begin with. Leave him to die by the walkers would’ve been the better choice imo!!
@@Sun-Warrior1911
If Randall wasn’t a bad guy, bringing him back would’ve been a net benefit. But he clearly wasn’t worth the risk of assimilation. Especially at the farm. That’s where Dale was ultimately wrong. Randall wasn’t a good person and all the evidence pointed towards it.
I love Dale as a character but he didn't realise the gravity of the situation that randall had caused. He would have killed Rick, Glenn and Hershel. This makes his argument redundant in my eyes.
Ironically, Rick's group eventually adopt Dale's philosophy and they start reforming people who were previously their enemies. Negan is a prime example, but there is plenty of others. Taking it a bit further to elaborate on that, Rick's choice to not retain his humanity and attack Negan's outpost eventually resulted in Abraham and Glenn's deaths.
While it seems to be a case by case situation for each person, his group does eventually start following Dale's advice. While they are completely opposite of each other, both Dale and Shane were way ahead of the rest of the group, just in different ways, and both of them contributed long term to the groups survival, even though they both died early on.
All that said, I did find Dale a bit annoying and the only solution for Randall at the time was to just kill him. They should have never brought him back to the farm. lol
@panspermiapancakes I totally get what you're saying.
In that world it's kill or be killed. Shane was way ahead of his time and wish he could've sorted his differences out with 'WRECK.'
The tipping point for me is he went to school with Maggie. Even though he said he didn't know where she lived that could be complete BS. I would've shot him there and then, which Shane tried to do but Rick was still in his 'we don't kill the living' mentality.
@@danielallen6178 Killing him does seem logical in that situation at the school but as early on in the ZA as it was, I probably would have taken Rick's stance simply because he was unarmed and it would feel weird murdering him, I'm just not sure if I would have stopped Shane from doing it, because I think I would have let him. lol
For me personally, I'd have left him to his fate when he was stuck on the fence, mainly because he had been trying to kill Rick's group just seconds prior when he was given an option to leave in peace. lol
@panspermiapancakes true, why the hell try save a kid that would've killed you. Then probably gone down to the farm and killed everyone else. Story over.
I would've let Shane do it. That was his final turn to insanity. Most people think it was when he killed otis, but many people would've done the same thing. They both would have died if he didn't kill otis.
I never looked that deep into it, I thought he called him a kid, due to him remembering his time and actions when he was that age
It’s because it’s not that deep. I don’t think anyone actually thinks Dale was saying he is a literal kid. It’s just an expression.
@@CryptbloomEnjoyer
An expression used to tug at emotional strings and not used to justify any substantive argument. Cap is right. Not surprising some people still disagree - most ppl can’t critically think to save their lives. 👁👄👁
@CaptainMorgannnn how much time do you spend on the internet per day, would you say?
@@PresAlexWhit FAR too much.
i love his videos but to spend a minute and thirty seconds on explaining that dale calling randall a kid was just kinda like 😐 it’s a fucking term i don’t think dale meant it as deep as the video explained it
Appeal to emotion fallacy is what Carl grimes letters were about to keep negan on the show
Sorta. Also if it weren't for negan, we'd be a couple seasons short because alpha would destroy the survivors.
@@heiscalledinvinciblenotinv68 saying that alpha would destroy the survivors is an absolute long shot and probably a pretty big lie season 5 survivors were absolutely at their peak in terms of numbers skills and experience the only real reason that negan made the impact that he did is because after arriving at Alexandria Rick and the group after all their trials were led into a false sense of security that they were unbeatable they became soft and in the end that cost them. Negan himself saw Rick and the group from season 5 said he would not mess with them back then. Would destroy the group of survivors is probably a long shot if anything they would have been better prepared and more mentally on edge to fight The whisperers
Even if he used emotional fallacies to manipulate the way the group thought about Randall, whether he was a kid or not, it's not like they themselves cared about the technical definition of the words 'kid' or 'young man.' They did know what Dale meant. It likely wouldn't have impacted their thought processes. Language isn't about perfection, but about conveying the idea clearly.
When it comes to the kid thing, Dale probably does see Randal as a kid because at his age he mine as well be a kid. That said, it is nonetheless still an emotional fallacy he uses to tug on heart strings so others can agree with him on that situation.
That is highly true however Dale is forgetting one thing. This kid is a member of a group that attacked Rick, Glenn, and Hershel earlier him firing shots at them too. An we saw all of that and these 3 saw all of that and knows he is a danger considering the group he was with prefers to shot people they meet.
@@silentecho92able I don’t think he is necessarily forgetting that. Afterall, peace was made with a few groups later in TWD that started initially as hostile. Though, I do agree with your point overall considering how this was the first time this had happened in TWD.
@@JoeyMace28 Yeah i agree with you too but seen's this roughly say 4-5 months seens the apocalypse started it hard to trust a lot of people. I mean Rick group met the Vatos gang the previous season. It could have gone either way with them too. Dale ain't wrong in appealing to people morality. But that's a double edge sword in the world they live in.
Its like telltales walking dead 400 days on Shel & Becca story. Where the group they were they caught a stranger sneaking into camp who only speaks Portuguese. An if you let him go one of your own a guy named Boyd is killed. Cause this stranger led his people back to where you are.
Its a tough dilemma but sometimes hardest decision can be for the best a better safe then sorry kind of thing.
As a longtime fan of TWD I love these videos analyzing the older seasons’ characters. Always super insightful and makes me reconsider my viewpoint of some characters!
Dale was using emotional fallacies but he was also a dinosaur. Everyone was a kid to him. He like all men, remembered being young and stupid. You got stuck on something that just doesn’t exist. He wanted them to give Randal a chance because he really believed he could redeem himself and become a functional member of society.
I think Dale was right, pretty much in every decision he made. Never give up and do what’s right is the basis of his arguments.
He wasnt necessarily right. But compared to shane. Yea. Id rather survive with dale.
Dale was the total personification of a moral compass. Gotta be honest I‘m a total fanboy of him.
Interesting take.. kinda puts Dale dying when he did in a new light. Ricks moral compass literally dying.
@@LedZedd yeah kinda, still he sees dales death as a sign to return to moral. After Dale Hershel became the moral compass of the group even though it wasnt exactly like Dale.
If everyone heeded his moralizing, they'd probably all be dead. He was hanging on to a morality meant for a civic society that didn't exist anymore. This channel went over the distinction between survival ethics and normative ethics in a previous video. He wasn't a moral compass, he was a conduit of sentimental moralizing.
"Dale appealed to emotional fallacies"
*Immediately appeals to a legal fallacy*
The problem with dales kind of arguments (and half a dozen other scenes throughout the show where a character would randomly become dale-esque for a single conversation...)
Is that the whole thing can be derailed with simply demanding an alternative to what he thinks is wrong...and then quickly being told to stop talking if they can't add anything..
The other problem is that the show requires the other characters to pretend the above isn't an option so the entirely pointless conversation can happen to pad the run time
I mean, im 30 and i consider 20 year olds to be kids because i can compare myself then to now and there is a gulf of maturity between a young adult and adult, such always comes when personal growth occurs
The difference with Dale is level of personal responsibility, i consider both an 8 yr old and 13 yr old to be young kids but i would lay more responsibility on a 13 year olds decisions, Randall had committed awful crimes that even being a "kid" wouldnt lessen
I think that whole episode was for the audience to have a debate, what was Dale's position? To lock Randall up in a nonexistent jail? To put him on trial when everyone watched him trying to kill members of your group? Dale's stance was always ridiculous
Yeah it really was ridiculous, if they had the power and resources to carry out some sort of prison sentence then it would of given Dale's argument more weight, but with their current situation what exactly would be Dale's plan if they decided not to kill him? If he had an actual plan that would ensure the groups safety then again his argument might have more weight, but his only argument was "we can't kill him because it's wrong" even though he posed a massive threat to the group
. Let’s be fair: in shows such as TWD, we tend to see those who express mercy as stupid, weak, nonsensical. Dale could have had the most well thought out argument ever made, we’d still want Randall killed. I wanted Randall killed. I loved Dale, but I wanted him to shut up. I wanted an outlet. Many viewers are the same. In real life, we’d give what Dale says more weight and thought. Because it would be a real situation. In a TV show, we tend to go towards the more violent options with far less trouble, because the people there are not real. No one actually gets hurt.
@Ares99999 I think you would have a very hard time putting up with a Dale in the real world. Maybe Dale was trying to hold onto the past, that could be fair but it doesn't look like it he didn't even talk the "kid"
@@frankzappa9853 No, I don't think I would. I'd be fully open to arguments to not taking a life. Wouldn't you?
@@Ares99999 I think TH-cam censored my comment so I will try and say it in a way the algorithm doesn't remove it.
But no if I was in Ricks shoes he wouldn't have even made it back to our base I would have dealt with him in the field.
Why was it not entertained, that Dale might have thought that Randall was a young goat.
Dude to a 60-year-old man a 20-year-old is a kid
My coworkers call me kid and boy all the time, I'm 20 and they are on their 50-60 and it's not just a couple of them it's most of them. 20 and 30 isn't that far away for you to see them as kids unlike a old man
Capitan Gold, love the copious amounts of sass used in this video. Utterly hilarious, and entertaining.
Remember when dale warned rick about teaching his son to shoot first and ask later, and carl later murdered a teenager in the middle of surrendering? 🤷♂️
Yeah, but Rick didn’t shoot first and ask later. He saved Randall, had Hershel take care of his injury and proceeded to debate with his group what the appropriate course of action should be. Dale’s comment to Rick was unimaginably stupid given those facts. Rick didn’t even shoot first and ask later with Dave and Tony lol
@TheRealCaptainGold while at the time it wasn't a good point to make because of the circumstances, Rick did ultimately make that impression on Carl. And the lack of moral compass from Dale and the arguments he made early on tend to come full circle.
@@Irishfrasa
Carl did what he did because Rick didn’t get rid of risks that came back to hurt the group (the prisoner who’s actions led to Lori’s death) and because he was responsible for Dale’s death. Not because Rick influenced Carl to be a cold killer. Rick wasn’t a shoot first and ask later guy until Season 5. Watch the show mate. Regardless, my point stands. It was a very stupid point to make given Rick didn’t set the example Dale was arguing against. It was a straw man and an appeal to emotion.
@TheRealCaptainGold Rick never sat Carl down and explained why things went as they did (that I can remember, not really about to rewatch the show a third time to double check). And instead trusted a child (in the literal sense not Dale's sense) to carry a deadly weapon with no real examples of responsibility to that point. Carl killing that teen was a failure on Rick's part as a father just as much as it was Carl being unstable and rash. Edit:but you are right about rick not being a shoot first guy til the murder jacket era. And while Dale's points don't stand up to a logical hindsight, from the perspective of people not even living in that world, he was clearly doing everything he could to protect some form of group morality.
@@Irishfrasa
In that exact moment, I’d place the blame on Hershel. He was the only adult present at that exact moment. But yes, you could say it was Rick’s fault for not sitting down Carl an explaining it to him. Granted, it was also the first time Carl ever had to deal with potentially engaging live people in combat - the entire time, Rick was getting him situated to survival. And to be fair to Rick, he called off Randall’s execution because he didn’t want Carl to witness it. Dale was just wrong to make that argument. You’re stretching really hard for a claim that failed to materialize as being solid. That claim would work better if used on Season 5 Rick. Prior to that, Rick always tried to avoid killing people. So much so that Carl disagreed with his father on that matter, initially.
You're wrong on "just a kid" part. Older people use this saying all the time, they're not trying to use an emotional fallacy. I'm 37 and from my point of view at 20 years old you are in fact an adult, but just barely. People Dale's age could call me a kid, from their point of view I may very well be one. It's all relative. He's not actually trying to argue that he's not of age, it means that he's young and inexperienced.
For the record, I somewhat disagree with Dale. Safety is paramount, but I do think that his age should be considered at least.
Honestly I think you’re harping on the definition of the word kid too much. Lots of people view 20 year olds as kids, like tons of people I know. Kid is a very ambiguous term and does not really have a clear definition for your regular person. If he used the word “child” I would agree with that point a bit more but describing an immature 20 year old as a kid is pretty common..
Bro didn’t watch the video
Think u didn't watch the video lol, this guy's right, he harps on it way too much for something that is super common, almost every person I know considers 20 yr olds kids in the sense that they aren't a child, but theyre young and figuring it out, therefore the term kid is pretty reasoable@@Halo47143
Communication is all about interpretation. Dale meant that he was young and stupid and reckless, therefore could be rehabilitated.
Definitions matter in any type of debate. A 20 year old is not a kid. Really ain't that deep...
Dale was the Humanity in the group the moment he was killed off the show got alot more brutal and they stopped taking riskes with new people. Dale was the heart of the show the only one who had a decent shred of Humanity left in him. Best character IMO
This is one reason why I liked Hershel better. Hershel was a man of principle, yet he also did not allow his emotions to blind him, or not as badly as Dale.
Dale only makes emotional appeals and does nothing actually productive to help the group. He makes for a good neighbor to vent to, but not a good party member for the zombie apocalypse. He loves drama not action.
Dude I was going such a binge with your videos! I absolutely love the way you analyze them along with mixing it with a bit of comedy! also I think your voice is cute af
Let's be real here, regardless of the kid angle, it's an apocalypse and it's man vs man vs zombies. Emotions have no bearing in a life or death situation,in fact, they'll likely get you killed. In order to survive, you need to be logical and pragmatic. Randall was a danger to the group previously and would likely be again. Holding him prisoner is a drain on resources and he's not going to contribute to the group, so that's a moot point. You can't let him go because he'd likely link back up with his old group or a new one entirely, almost certainly come back and kill your group for your resources, so that's a no-go too. Randall HAS to be dealt with accordingly, he's of no benefit to the group as a prisoner and he can't be trusted to be set free, so that only leaves death as the safest option. It's Randall or the group.
Circling back to the kid topic, remember Lizzie? You know,the girl that was feeding the walkers, causing all sorts of problems for the group, killed her own sister so she'd become a walker and was getting ready to kill an infant Judith so she could do the same? Yeah, kid or not, she was an insane and a huge liability, she HAD to be put down. I don't think there's one person out there that would argue that on the "she's just a kid" premise, Lizzie was too far gone and would've doomed the group if she were left alive.
So,while Randall was more a wild card,as opposed to Lizzie who was clearly and obviously a danger, he needed to be taken out of the equation. He was an adult, made his own decisions to link up with a deranged group, attacked Rick's group of his own free will and should suffer the consequences of his actions. It's just that simple, it's the group or Randall, the group will decide on the best course of action for the group.
people still talking about S2 over a decade later just makes me so happy. when i watched twd i was on the last year of everyone hating it and saying it was the worst season. now it's the most discussed season over the years. it just shows that good storytelling really does matter.
Dale is a character that people think they like, but thanks to people like you, you’ve given us information that paints Dale as a completely different character.
I did like Dales character, but I do agree with your points. Plus, if Dale was willing to stand up to that “kid”, you’d think he would want to hear Randles side of things.
So while Dale has his flaws, his guts being ripped open by a walker while he was alive is something that not even he deserved. Still, even though his character has flaws, he’s a character you’d like to have around, but probably not during the apocalypse. 🤣
Dale was the oldest and most married to the old world, he was the heart and the hope for returning to civilization, and all his appeals are a crucial part of functioning civilization but he never quite figured out (or maybe admitted) that the old world was dead.
If he lived in the United States of America he would be correct, you have to show mercy. If you're at war with an inexplicably hostile foreign expansionary power in the middle of zombie infested wilderness listening to him is certain death.
I don’t like how you base it off of societal norms like “when you can enlist” or “when you can purchase tabaco” because that fluctuates throughout the world so technically you are a smooth brain too 😂
If Dale isn't talking about how to repair an RV he doesn't know shit about anything.
Bruh lmao
Tv dale be like
I think the use of kid until 25 is okay as the prefrontal cortex hasn't fully developed until then.
This reminds me of Captain America Civil War where one of the main arguments between Captain America and Iron Man was that Iron Man basically put Scarlet Witch under house arrest for several reasons (she was unfairly blamed by the UN for multiple deaths that wasn't really her fault, she's not US citizen, she's stateless and technically an illegal immigrant, etc; thus not putting her under house arrest would mean that she would be put into actual prison) and Captain America strongly opposed this because she's just a "kid", eventhough she's a young adult.
Never once Cap mentioned things like, "She was trying to save people and us", "It wasn't her fault", "It would've been worse if she wasn't there". Honestly, it felt almost like even he somewhat agreed that she made a mistake, he just didn't want her to be punished in any way for that supposed mistake and yet he made no real argument to defend her. He was being emotional while Iron Man was being logical and practical.
People need to understand that pointing out the fact that someone is utilizing a logical fallacy has no bearing on the correctness of that person's claim.
Captain Gold wants to kill all kids confirmed
Dale said what he did to get what he wanted. I'm in complete shock no one has ever done that before.
I agree that he was making an appeal to emotion and trying to maintain a certain semblance of the world he knew but quite simply, the world isn't the same world they knew anymore. The world they're in isn't a forgiving world and that semblance that they knew is gone and have to acclimate to the circumstances they're in. For the argument of Randell being a kid, considering in this usage is subjective term, I'm going to use Carl as an example. Carl is a kid, Objective and Subjective use of the term. He's not fully matured, and he's forced to grow up quickly in a world that is unforgiving. In the scene after the prison, he's forced to take care of his dad and sweep the house of Walkers. While sweeping the house, he comes across a game console with a bunch of games he would've like to play. holding the games in his hands looks up at the tv and sees his own reflection a complete stranger to who he used to be. Carl shouldn't have to deal with this, the reality is he is dealing with it and has to. Emotions in this circumstance has to take the back seat and why we classify Emotions as Subjective. You have to match the reality you're in. Until you can rebuild humanity from the ground up, you don't have a choice.
Thank you for your thoughts on old people calling anyone and everyone younger a kid. But for Dale’s arguments I am kinda wary to think the writers for TWD were actually skilled enough to consider any of that.
I just found this channel and spent the morning binging these videos. And then as if made just for me a new video drops for me to continue the train rolling lol
Looking back on Dale he was a kind've annoying character. At first I saw him as the group's moral center but now I kinda view him as the guy who stuck his nose in everyone else's business. Sure he cared about Andrea but she wasn't his family or responsibility so when she wanted to stay at the CDC it should've been her choice. Then he took her gun away again he had no right to do that. Then he also got on Glenn's case for being with Maggie again not his business. Both liked each other and were adults, Dale also made assumptions about Shane. Yea he was there when Shane raised his gun on Rick but he didn't know the context. Shane was pissed , because he didn't want Rick to put the group at the camp in danger by leaving and they lost a lot of people. At that point, Shane was the leader he lost ppl he was responsible for. Plus Rick implies he didn't care about Lori & Carl the same way he did. With all that context I view the moment of Shane aiming at Rick as a momentary lapse in judgment allowing his rage to get the better of him but he wasn't gonna shoot him. Dale saw this and didn't address it at all. Even in the episode what Lies ahead he still seemed on friendly terms with Shane. He only addressed the incident after again getting overprotective of Andrea, towards Shane. And also using Otis's death to justify his poor perception of Shane. Again he wasn't there and yet he treated Shane as an evil monster without knowing what really went down. Shane was just too angry to defend or deny Dales negative perception of him. Plus I view Shane giving Otis a heroic sounding death as kinda a way of doing penance for killing him. But also he tried to justify it over and over again to make it seem like he wasn't guilty. "He had no business being here...There whatever ". I think he tried to basically rationalize it as "Otis was weak" , "Otis was a liability", "Otis shot Carl, it's all his fault." If Shane really was a monster like Dale assumed he wouldn't have had to justify his actions or reacted so angrily to him judging him after the Barn shootout.
Yeah he really was annoying and stuck his nose in everyone's business, and he was honestly just stupid sometimes like he would let his emotions get in the way of what was clearly the most logical and the best decision for the group
Dale is clearly not calling Randall a child. He's still trying to appeal to emotions, however because hes not a fucking nerd and is relying on morals. Do you believe morals are illogical and a falacy?
Agreed, as a 22 year old I've had my 42 year old coworker refer to me as both a "Grown man" and a "Young stupid kid" lmao but I know that I am a young-man. Even new's articles, there was with 20 year old asian who died recently, can't remember where or from, but even the headlines said "20 YEAR OLD MAN DIED IN ACCIDENT"
It's all just a big nitpick, but it's true.
When someone older calls a young adult a 'kid' it's usually meant in an ambiguous way, a more ironic way. Like, almost to say, "you're like a kid to me" so it's purely subjective.
Using it in Dale's context, c'mon. The real world would've tried him as an adult, why even try to make him sound like a kid?
And why didn't you Dale, go talk to the kid anyway?
I never would have thought that this would have been a discussion, that dales intentions by calling dude kid and boy wasn't obvious. But I'm glad you did a video on it.
People are shockingly unintelligent.
I fucking love your analysis on what fallacies are since I think a lot of people really don't know how to identify them at all, which is really really important for understanding how to break down the argument of the person you're arguing/discussing with. I think though, to be honest, your mode of analysis may be a little debate-bro coded, which is fine but it allows some of your points to fall a bit short. On your part of the video breaking down semantical points of what a kid is, I don't think the actual dictionary definition or even that much the social or functional definition has much to do with Dale's intentions or view of Randall. Yes, it is a proven fact that Randall is in his early 20's in TWD universe, but this isn't something that is explicit in the show simply because the characters have no way of knowing this. As someone who is around Randall's age, I literally viewed Randall as a kid or boy, a literal fucking minor. Rewatching the episode just now, I'm sure Dale, in terms of how the character thinks, also viewed him as an actual kid. This isn't to say that Dale wasn't employing several emotional fallacies, but just to maybe give the character a bit of light in terms of how you portray his intentions.
Terrific video though. Would love to see more creators who make videos on The Walking Dead with as much analytical poise as you.
I wish Dale lasted longer man
this how communities on youtube are built keep it up.
I thought a "kid" was a baby goat.
Just binge watched your vids, your scripts are really well written and I think you include a good amount of your own personal opinion that really ties the videos together. Your channel is gonna blow up soon!
with quality videos like this. you’re about a video away from becoming one of my favorite walking dead affiliated youtubers
Dude you have me cracking up you tore into this shit
Why are you so aggressive my guy?
Why not?
Captain Gold- "being old isnt a fucking intellectual achievement"
Sub earned
People who will get annoyed about this video, he says in the description this video is " a petty response to some comments made on an older video". He isn't actually being this obnoxious (i think) its suppose to be a bit.
I may or may not be exaggerating my pettiness.
Dedicated a 13 minute video to digging himself into a deeper hole about being wrong.
Great video, but it's definitely comes off as like your degrading some of your points. Calling people ignorant whether they are or not isn't going to get your point across better. Then bring up facts in a yet again degrading way and insulting the views that disargreed doesn't help any more. Then, in the last 2 minutes, said that Dale has Dimentia, which he clearly doesn't in a video that is about Emotial Falicies, which you literally just used left a bad taste in my mouth. Still good video though keep up the content.
Never said Dale had dementia lol I said he **isn’t** a dementia ridden retiree who thinks everyone is a kid. Just gotta clarify that - I don’t want to be misrepresented. That bad taste was a result of not listening carefully, unfortunately.
That said, I really don’t care if I’m insulting to people. The right to have an opinion doesn’t obligate me to respect said opinion. If that’s somehow harmful to someone’s emotional health, they need to definitely not be apart of any potentially contentious discourse.
Damn, when did you become so savage? 😂 I love it. I found you on some of your older videos, so this was a complete surprise. Also idk why ppl get so offended, you aren't saying that Dale is a bad guy or anything.
This type of content is why Cap is the GOAT 🐐
Should have left Randall to die and not risked future issues. The group at that point was still ignorant of their new reality and Dale was the most oblivious of what it was going to take to survive in the world. He was going to get himself or others killed sooner or later. It was a net positive when he was killed.
Dale was a good man but too heartfelt in a world gone mad.
Yes, we appeal to each others emotions as humans. Others referred to him as a kid as well
Dale was ultra manipulative. This video only scratches the surface.
I can see where you're coming from but I definitely have known a lot of people who are even in their early 30s- mid 40s who have and still do refer to people in their early 20s as kids regularly not in some kind of demeaning way just how they see someone younger who's really just starting life
Yes dale did try to pull on the group's heart strings to get them to spare Randall it was a person's life after all but Randall just wasn't who dale was trying paint him out to be he was somebody far more twisted
Dale was a good person but he cared too much about people that shouldn't matter to him as much as his own group/family also great video dude. I love these kinds of videos and it helps when u have someone that knows what they are talking about
I’m hoping to see a was Morgan right video. I think that would make for an interesting video
That’s on my list.
I hope to never see that moronic and annoying lunatic ever again, so please no. He's literally the worst character of this entire franchise.
In a world where even "kids" can be menaces, the argument shouldn't be whether or not they're a boy, it should be whether or not they can fit into the group and how much they can bring to the table. Let's imagine for a second that Randal was actually a kid, like 12 years old or something. They try to get him assimilated but at what point does his attitude change? Is it even worth the investment? That should've been the cusp of the argument, Dale's diversion does more harm to the group than it does any good.
I don't think your argument is any better, if he was 12 he could easily assimilate into the group because he would be more easily influenced and listen to their authority, and he's less likely to rebel and be a threat, and he could become very useful to the group, but Randall isn't 12 he's 20 and he tried to kill several members of the group, they can't trust him to stay or become part of the group and they can't just let him go because he will surely lead his people back to kill them and take their resources, they have no practical means to keep him prisoner, he will most likely escape and could possibly kill someone in the process, even if he didn't escape Randall would be a constant drain on their resources and honestly how long can they keep him locked up in the barn having someone watch him day and night, as long as he's alive he is a major threat to the group and that's just not a risk they can afford to take, so I honestly don't even know where your argument comes into play, he tried to kill several members of the group and he can't be trusted to just stay and become part of the group, even if they could trust him to become part of the group there's no reason why they should want him to become part of the group, your argument has nothing to do with the situation, it's pretty simple, they can't trust him to stay, they can't just let him go, they can't keep him prisoner, and he poses a major risk to the group, the only logical solution is to kill him
randall shouldent have died. his group was murderious, if you wanna live fast you live alone, if you wanna go far you go with a group. yes, he shot at them, but what was he supposed to do? he was no r@pist.
i change my mind
I love Dale a lot, and his last episode is one of my favorites, but sadly, I agree with you.
He used emotional arguments to prove his points...
Rick's good human values, Glenn's following, Andrea's debt and her lawyer's job, Hershel's religion...
Which ALL of them have nothing to do with the suspicions people have for Rendall.
He is kinda a kid because he looks like a teen... but when you are with a group that some of them tried to kill Rick, Glenn and Hershel... That doesn't help them! Mostly when Dave and the big guy weren't friendly overall and big mouthed...
Yes, it's theories and suppositions, but when you consider someone as a potential threat... You gotta make a big move!
Dale wanted to keep the humanity of everyone, but his arguments were based on emotional arguments instead of suspicious which Hershel, Glenn, Rick and Daryl (who made him talked) had the proofs, which aren't always good points.
There it is!
Im glad to see these videos, i fucking LOATHED dale and his moral high ground bullshit and everyone thought i was out of my mind for it
We gotta be honest dale was annoying af
Dale never deserved to die and I'll never forgive Carl for what he did
dale and tyreese got the best deaths in the show imo. they died staying true to who they were and didn't let the end of the world to change them.
the way randal acts, carries himself, and generally looks isnt much different from a highschooler thats way in over his head
he isnt some hardened killer he is a baby faced dumbass that got that far into the end of the world by sheer luck so in that aspect id probably call him a kid too
also your entire argument is based on the question of killing randal or not killing randal to be a smart argument based on logic and reason which it isnt, its based around paranoia to the point that murdering someone unironically is on the table
dales perfectly right to use emotional fallacies because everyone on the other side was fear mongering due to it being the zombie outbreak
Randal wasn’t a fkn kid, he was enemy combatant that was captured. If he left he would’ve came back with his group. You’re a fool.
20 year old is a kid. Can’t change my mind on that 🤷🏼♂️
Didn’t wanna bloat the video with an actually important point 😂 but rambled on about the definition of child and kid for 5 minutes
The most enjoyable part of this video was you taking naysayers to task
Dale horvath dale horvath dale horvath dale horvath dale horvath dale horvath Dale horvath dale horvath dale horvath
While dale may have many emotional fallacies I feel like they made his character this way to keep the humanity left in the cast & not go off the deep end but despite all that I’m always gonna be 50/50 with the Andrea situation because he did exactly what she did 💀😂 but she mad. Yes it was emotional manipulation but she didn’t have to stay they both would be dead. If he died she’d be sad even though she would have died to, if she died he would be sad as well. All dale did was do what she was doing it was just from a different perspective or reason.
bro ur seething lmao
I’m foaming at the mouth.
I agree with Dale a little bit. Like they should have a conversation but Dale wanted to save Randell and wasnt gonna take any other way
I mean honestly what is there to talk about? He tried to kill several members of their group, they can't just let him go or trust him to stay because he will surely bring his people back to kill them and take their stuff, they have no practical means to keep him prisoner, he will either escape and possibly kill someone in the process or he would just be a constant drain on their resources and honestly how long can they just keep him locked up in the barn having someone watch him day and night, there is no practical reason to keep him alive and as long as he is alive he is a major threat to the group and that just isn't a risk they should take, I mean honestly what would be a practical solution to keep him alive that would ensure the groups safety, that wouldn't put the group at risk and that wouldn't be a drain on their resources? If you ask me there really isn't a decision
Bro 20 is kid to a lot of people who are grown they haven’t really thought life through and still dumb these still like sophomore college kids 💀
Generational yapping
ts is tough i feel like i graduated from college, Dale is the goat tho hes nice or whatever, and I think Dale was right over shane, just cuz of the fact that Dale wanted the group to not turn into mosters, even if they shouldve killed randall.
also u should make more vids on Dale
Honestly I think he was the only one that kept his moral compass Rick became so much like Dale over the years. I feel like we shouldn't make fun of him because he was right like you can't be judged jury and execution you have to do the right thing. Yes of course if someone is a threat but you have to deal with it, but remember that there have to be something after everything can't just be violence. Plus his death was so brutal carol could have died in that field...
dont know bro. Ask Phil Leotardo about his kid brother. 47 years old, just a fuckin kid
LOL
The title in the thumbnail sends me 🤣
I'm definitely a minority in the Walking Dead fandom because I love Lori and Dale just annoys me whenever his flaired nostrils are on the screen.
Dales arugment is based on emotions but your argument is based of FEAR not facts you talk about all the fear of what Randal could do but not what he would do. If he was a hardened killer hed take out Rick, Hershel and Glenn by shooting them before he got ate by walkers. Also tons of old people call 20 year olds kids and honestly a lot of them act like them.
Lol
20 is an odd age. Your no longer a child but your also not fully developed into the man your becoming yet.
If Randall said "i went poopy in my pants" it probably wouldnt be considered cute or innocent. Just saying for those who call him a kid.
My question - how strong was the walker that opened Dale up like a tin of sardines??
Strong af lol
I'm not killing anyone until they absolutely prove they need to be handled in an extreme way or have a background that leads me to believe they would be a problem later on. People can change, and deserve a second chance if they truly want to change. Randal has proven he has done or at least condoned some fucked shit, so it would definitely push me to believe he wouldn't make true on his word. Dale didn't know this though and genuinely a good person, and emotional manipulation? It should also apply to Andrea as well should it not? She wanted to die, thus Dale stayed because he didn't want to loose her too, that clearly using emotion as well. Also an 18 year old is likely getting called a kid by really anyone 30 and over, as they are still young in comparison. I believe Dale's he's merely using the term to convey that he's still young and hasn't experienced life like the rest.
Dale's argument has no weight, Randall tried to kill several members of their group, they can't trust him to stick around and become part of the group, they can't just let him go because he will surely bring his group back to kill them and take their resources, they have no practical means to keep him prisoner, he would either escape eventually and possibly kill someone in the process or even if he didn't escape he would be a constant drain on their resources and honestly how long can they keep him locked up in the barn having someone watch him day and night, as long as Randall is alive he poses a major threat to the group and that's a threat they really can't afford to risk, there's no logical reason to keep him alive, he's only endangering the group, even if he could change and turn his life around that's just not a risk they can take
I’m surprised you haven’t done a video on the governor.
I think they should’ve killed Randall once he revealed that he went to school with Maggie. I was always confused about why he mentioned he knew Maggie to complete strangers.. can someone explain that to me
Could u do a vid on the governor 🙏
I promise it’s in the works. Probably be out in July.
You know Gold is right when the disagreements in the comments all amount to “it’s not that deep” and “you’re just wrong cuz I say so” 🤡 People can’t just admit when they’ve been beaten.