Dale's words really can be felt in Season 9 when Rick seemingly come full circle and was back to " the world belongs to all of us now" Humanity only thrives when we learn to live with each other and get along. The idea of civilization is what saved humanity from extinction. Something Dale fully understood before the end. Shane's methods are necessary for the intermediate. Dale's were necessary for when the intermediate was over. I think that about sums it up right.
Randall's group didn't become monsters shaped by their environment. They were monsters who immediately took advantage of the chaos , and he was a willing member of them.
Honestly....if there was a zombie apocalypse out there and I knew all kinds of monsters (human ones) were roaming the streets willing to kill and harm absolutely everyone....I would probably join one group just for protection....especially when you don't know about actual communities that are thriving out there. For all you know you might be either alone and get killed by someone over a can of food or stick to the killers who will kill someone else instead....kinda like Daryl 'joined' claimers even though he wasn't a rapist....yes he did stop them from raping Carl but...would he if it were someone he didn't know?? Who knows.
@@antifurryfoundation55idk why Randall sat there and told Darrel that story about the girls when he is trying to convince them he is not a bad guy. Nobody would sit there and say that lol
I think Hershel called it right when he suggested putting Randall down while he was still impaled on the fence. He’d already marked himself as hostile by shooting at you and putting him out of his misery in that moment and sparing him from being torn apart by walkers was more humane than what the remainder of his life amounted to be.
i understand why they did it but i feel like my biggiest issue with that part of the season was how they ended up handling randel. like that whole thing felt almost like a waste or just a slap in the face to whichever side you were on.
@@everybodywalktheDinosaur unfortunately its because he had more expensive ideas, search up 'Frank Darabont's epic rejected plan' he talks about what he would have done in season 2, its pretty cool!
@@everybodywalktheDinosaur wasn't the producer, it was showrunner and director frank Darabont. same guy that directed Shawshank redemption. basically, amc wanted to increase the episode count per season by double and lower the budget and frank said it would make the show a lot worse and didn't agree with it so they fired him. Dale's actor was good friends with him and is in a few of his movies thats why a lot of the following seasons take place in one spot for a long time such as the farm, prison, etc and had less walkers than season 1. was a shame because frank was the guy Robert Kirkman entrusted to bring this to live actions and the people we got after aren't genius directors like he was. Go back and watch season one and some of season 2 and pay attention to how much better the dialogue and directing was, we were robbed of what would have been a top 5 tv show of all time. I'm still fan but mostly because andrew lincoln was so damn good in this show.
@@TheRealCaptainGold I understand that it is technically incorrect & I'm sure Dale knew very well that he was a technical adult, but I also believe he TRULY saw him as still "just a kid". Tho (IMO) he's not doing it in the typical way that older adults can commonly recognise someone young enough to be their child or grandchild as a fully developed adult while simultaneously recognising that they lack so much life experience as compared to themselves that they are like a child comparatively. I believe he's desperately grasping at lost innocence, he's trying to fool himself, not them, he's desperately clinging to the fallacy that "he's just a kid" & not a 20yro POS. Poor Dale, reality sucks, but you can't change it or ignore it & expect to survive in it, you can only make the best of it.
@@u-neekusername4430 no, I guarantee that was not the case. I guarantee he was calling him a kid because he’s an old man you’re looking way too into it man. I literally just turned 29 last week and I still have a dogs that call me a kid or they’ll say jokes like I have socks, older than you. It’s literally all about perspective. If you’re talking to a 60 year old man, they will look at a 30 old like there’s still a kid. With me and my wife a year and a half ago went on vacation we were at this museum and there was these high school kids there too and literally one of the coordinators confused me and my wife who were in our late 20s at the time as high school students because the age difference between me and the museum coordinator was so much that her eye looks like a teenager still it’s literally all about perspective
@@Faceplay2 Mate, I think there's been a miscommunication. I didn't say anything that contradicts your 2nd paragraph. I acknowledged that aspect of it since *I* do that myself, I certainly can't deny it (I'm not close to 60). I think you misunderstood my intentions here. This is/was my personal impression/character psyc analysis of Dale. I'm not a writer (nor have neurotypical thought patterns) so I understand if I wasn't overtly clear about it. I was trying to say that there was another layer to Dale's obvious/normal/typical "older person calling someone a kid". YES, he _was_ doing that, but there was also a deeper level to it (again IMO)....n looking deep is kinda the definition of character analysis, so I absolutely did that. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear n seem to have somehow struck a nerve...maybe you assumed I'm GenZ (cuz so damn many) n not a "young" GenX w/GenZ 20yro who's life experience of people is w/physical people. If so all good, that stuff gets to me too... it's why I replied. 😊
100% agreed. I was happy that Hershel got to see that change at the least just before his death. They kinda took Dale being the moral compass and moved it over to Hershel.
@@AzureRadiothat’s actually because Hershel was supposed to be the one that died on the farm and Dale was originally supposed to be the figure that Hershel was during the prison. They switched directors for season 2 and the actor that played dale didn’t want to work on the show without him, so they switched the characters
Yeah but Dale's mentality made sense it was still early he hadn't experienced so much bad stuff he assumed it reasonable to hold onto humanity. Rick's on the other hand makes no fucking sense he spared negan to be "better" but he's still killing people some for even less then what negan did hell even when Rick bomb's the CRM base it was nice of him to not consider that most of those soldiers might've been forced like he was. Just find it funny during the negan war they made it about "perspectives" and two sides of the coin at a lame attempt to redeem negan but pretty much abandon that mind set after it was over even with that long hair guy who had beef with daryl and the kid on the bridge Rick says to him "stitches won't fix what I do to you" Rick you sound like a fucking idiot not a badass I mean seriously you'll let a guy live who brutally murdered your friend right infront of you and his pregnant wife but you'll kill a guy because....he was angry he didn't get a bit of extra water and not to mention Rick is also trying bring a group together that already has tons of bad blood between them and Rick threatens the guy and tells him to leave yeah fucking genius.
We'd just see him complaining non-stop like before. And die immediately in the harsher world after season 2. I dunno what we'd gain And we already have Morgan as Rick's foil. I don't think we needed a worse one for any longer than we did
I have always liked Season 2 people say it was slow and boring I disagree . The Barn Walkers , Shane's decent into Madness ect. It was the Season that was building the Characters and the show became like watching people we felt we knew and rooted for .
I enjoyed Season 2 when it was released. I understood why people said it was slow, but I much preferred TWD before it became Seal Team Carol and gun porn. (Nothing against Carol the character but when every character turned into Black Ops, the post apoc charm was gone for me.)
Me personally I got into Walking Dead back when season 8 was airing. I enjoyed season 2 since I didn’t have to wait a week in between episodes but I could see that season being kinda boring for the people who did have to wait.
Dale is a super underrated character due to his lack of longevity in the tv series. Unfortunately behind the scenes politics stopped him from being an all time character like Hershel.
@@cbeaudry4646 Frank Darabont the showrunner up until season 2 was “released” Dale’s actor stood with Darabont, his “regime” and creative direction, he asked to be killed off due to this. TWD accepted Jeffrey DeMunn’s (Dale) request.
@@cbeaudry4646 Also, we will never know how long Dale’s character was supposed to survive in the show. But a reasonable speculation on the basis of his possibly superior comic book counterpart is that he most likely would have survived until the post-Terminus arc in Season 5 receiving Bob’s death. Instead of a bullsh!t walker encounter in season 2.
@@LeinkesterThat is what happened to the worser Dale but keep in mind that the TV show loved changing & adding new deaths to the show. Remember Andrea? Shane? Abraham? Rosita? Tyrees? Carl? Lori? The TV show loved making their deaths different
Dale may have been wrong about Randall but the group absolutely needed him to avoid acting strictly out of fear. He made them consider the possibilities more rationally rather than just go along with Shane, whose judgment at that point was questionable at best.
@@AzureRadio Plus his group thought he was dead so it didn't matter because they wasn't gonna come looking anyway so they did let him go he probably wouldn't of made it back because he was injured
honestly i feel like there had to be a way to deal with this but the problem is again its if the writers were like we cant do this for the rest of the show so they just got rid of him in the most rushed and anticalmatic way possible that i feel like goes against what the rest of the episodes were trying to say and honestly kind of feels like a slap to the face if you were invested on both sides.
I dunno. How much would Dale's advice really have helped against the governer or the other monstr people. I feel like he would have encouraged mercy against enemies we know would not return it. I feel like he would have been a downside to the group until they hit Alexandria.
At the end of the day he revealed his true colors to Shane, who in turn snapped his neck. "You're gonna love it with us." The opposite of how he acted to the group that his group was terrible.
Yeah. There's no argument after that. The point of the Randal situation wasn't to prove that he should be spared, but that Rick needed to learn his lesson.
He said that because Shane was holding him at gun point. Randal knew they left him for dead and immediately realized they weren't the right people to be with. No way to prove he actually was a bad person.
Fun fact the scene where Dale tries to convince the group to spare Randall’s life is actually a little nod to the movie "12 Angry Men", def recommend if you good writing, and interesting drama
@@doggolovescheese1310 It can work. Torture is unethical because its effectiveness doesn’t warrant its use. If I remember correctly, it’s a bit less effective than professional interrogation methods. But less effective doesn’t mean “doesn’t work”. You can definitely get the info you want through it, but it isn’t considered to be the optimal strategy.
I forgot about that interrogation scene where Randall was talking about underaged girls. That really took me off the fence and made me in favor of your conclusion.
Yup, even if he states he didn't partake he never shows disgust towards this and wouldn't he not want to find something better than a group that does inexplicable things to people While I understand dale, Randall was always in a losing position
@@ZeonEons What were his options? Leave and be alone and likely be hunted by the group he was leaving as a traitor, NVM the fact that being alone in the woods with almost no food/water no transportation or shelter and likely very limited means of protection is a death sentence on its own. Try and stop the event from occurring in which he would likely be killed himself? He did find another group and they killed him, the fact that he didn't take part in the rapes and how he spoke about the incident kind of shows his moral compass isn't broken.
I was on the fence until Randall was talking about the young girls, and how he almost smiled when thinking about it! ......I feel he was an active participant in what went down!
@@ashleykathleen85 It's funny, because some seasons are better to binge like S2, but others like S1/3 are better with a few days/a week between them for more tension.
Argument is simple. Killing is wrong under any circumstance except self defense or protecting someone else from harm. The saddening reality in Randalls case was, that he was most likely going to assist his group to retaliate. That is the tragedy of the world of The Walking Dead. Shane saw it right from the start and it took Rick until he killed Shane to realize it too. That is the sad reality of the world. That is what makes Dale's story so utterly tragic. He had the insight to realize who was made for this world. Sadly he wasn't one of the ones who live.
Why would he? Had they not tortured him he had every reason to stay and be helpful. His group abandoned him for dead, this group had a pretty nice setup on a farm and saved his life.
@@ds7307 truth is we will never know what randalls intentions were. i mean i feel like he was just a plot device and i feel like once the writters eather just did not know where to take that plot or ran out of time or both they were like well lets just kill him off like the whole past few episodes did not mean anything.
I think the reason S2 is viewed more fondly now isn’t just a comparison to later seasons, but how tv and entertainment has evolved since it aired. Back then, people wanted spectacle and action and anything less was “boring” but nowadays we have amazing slow burn dramas and people expect more character work, interesting and engaging stories and following a more canonical narrative… especially since you can binge the season and follow all of the little subnarratives and character journeys more closely, and things like foreshadowing and slow character building works better on streaming. It’s a different entertainment zeitgeist now than it was over a decade ago… S2 was just ahead of its time…
@@Peejay09if Dale had survived maybe his perspective of the world and keeping the groups humanity would have changed just by looking at the Governor Terminus Saviors the Whispers the claimers the CRM and Other Evil groups and Characters oh and I can’t forget the commonwealth the Croat In NYC And Possibly Jadis in the CRM even Daryl once said that people like Beta or Negan don’t deserve to live because those people are just simply evil one example is the Governor the fucking governor was just plain Evil he didn’t even care about the Prison Group nor of his own Group
i think it's good to have a moral compass in a world where you might have to kill people just to survive, it helps keep peoples humanity and prevent them from becoming someone like the governor and becoming too far gone, i mean the group was humane enough to listen to dale and talk to him about it, so having someone like dale in the world they live in is a good thing
@@somevrdude88 I think that the governor was already like that I mean he lost his wife just a few weeks before the apocalypse he lost his daughter in Woodbury and the governor didn’t exactly had the best childhood when he was a teen
It’s crazy how quickly you put these out considering the quality and editing, I don’t know if you have a bunch of scripts saved up or if you’re just super efficient but hats off to you man
11:00. Randall can handle himself when come to walkers. Remember this...Rick and Shane dropped Randall off. Rick tossed a knife far away to hint Randall that he can cut himself loose after they leave. Remember that Randall spill the beans that he knows Maggie? Shane tried to pop him but Rick stopped Shane and they got into a fight? While Rick and Shane was fighting Randall was able to handle a walker with his hand tied behind his back. So in a nut shell.."getting rid of Randall" was 100% OKAY. Also all of this happened because Rick decided to save Randall. Should of just left him to get eaten or at least put round in him.
In regards to Dale he met his end because he _wasn’t paying attention!_ Seriously all throughout the show Walkers *will* start growling and snarling when they see some fresh food so I refuse to believe the one that got Dale went into Ninja Mode until it was right on top of him! Dale was too busy having his crisis of conscience to focus on his surroundings so he got gotten 😒😒😒
Saying Dale calling Randall a kid is "a fallacy" is kind of lame tbh. Obviously everyone knows that 20 is legal adult age. It's not literal. Anyone over 25 would refer to a 20-year-old as a kid. Randall wasn't even allowed to legally drink in America yet.
16 is old enough to drive, 18 is old enough to vote, 19 to drink some places, 21 in others. Dale calling anyone an adult a kid, is arrogant beyond belief. If anything he's an ancient man out of touch with the modern era.
I think Dale is right in a lot of ways in this discussion, but after learning everything about the raider group and what they did to that group with the underage girls, he was wrong in trying to protect this kid. The episode where Rick and Shane were fighting, he briefly got away and managed to kill a zombie with his hands tied behind his back so there was definitely a chance that he could survive and get back to his raider group. The only thing that I could say that he could possibly add a point to assimilation due to the fact that in the very same episode he saved Rick and Shane when he could have easily driven off in the car that he stole. Dale is morally right in what he’s discussing, but with everything laid out in your video he was wrong. Had this kid been part of some wanderers who lost their settlement to raiders/zombies and were just aggressively defending themselves I’d understand a little bit more, but the fact remains; his group attacked Rick, Dale, and Glenn when they could have discussed things, they were raiders and rapists, his release could easily mean that the farm gets discovered. The cards aren’t in his favor
The thing is Dale doesnt have all the info about Randall, he isnt the viewer like we are and he isnt omnipresent in the future of the show after he died. The other thing about the Bar fight is Randals groups pov: if you rolled up on a group of strangers who killed your friends and they claimed it was self defense, what is your reaction? do you believe the strangers or take revenge? I mean we see in S5 Beth stabbed Dawn first for no reason but Dawn still gets gunned down for retaliating in self defense anyway even though Beth attacked her first? By that logic Beth should be in the wrong and Rick shouldve just sat down and talked it out with Dawn right?
@@xvoidxhunter2129 ya i thought this exact thing but randall literally says he knew they were bad people that have raped, tortured, etc. Its common sense at that point to believe rick and co it was self defense. ykwim?
What a wildly false assumption. I'm 49 years old, and 20 is an adult by every standard in which we measure. Certainly, if you rape or murder you deserve an adult punishment. True now and doubly true when living in a time and/or place where you have no method of incarceration or reasonable evaluation of rehabilitation.
@@timpoolssentientbeanie5646 Actually, not a conservative. Pro-gay marriage, and have been since I was about 19. Pro legalization of weed and several other low-impact drugs. Pro-prison reform. You need me to be a conservative so you can assume. So you can avoid thinking.
@@justinamerican8200 You don't have to steer away from conservatism to believe that gay marriage should be allowed. I'm a conservative-leaning moderate who mostly shares conservative values, and I'm pro-gay marriage. In fact, I'm in a same-sex relationship and plan to marry my boyfriend one day.
Ethically he was right. Practically? Not so much. I wanted Randall to be let go so bad but everytime I went over the situation in my head and asked myself how they can be sure he won't turn on them and come back to kill them with his group I can never give myself a single real answer or solution. There's just no way to be safe unless they pack up and leave the area forever. There's just no choice but to kill him or keep him captive forever rwhich is so fucked up to think about but it's true.
So this thought just came to me. But I may be mistaken. Why didn't they ask Randall where the camp was or they probably did at some point and for some reason he never gave that information I know at the end of the season he agrees to take Shane to this group (which we know shane only wants to kill him and set a trap for rick)
@@ZeonEons I do remember when Daryl was beating him he said " I don't know... we were never one place more than a night!" But then he went on to tell Shane exactly where they last were so odds are he was lying to Daryl which is puzzling because your think of he was so scared of being hit again by Daryl he would tell the truth and not risk getting caught In another lie. Clearly he had some emotional attachment to that group.
@@pyroAdapt Cheers that was it. That's why I was confused of the "we were never one place more than a night" But as you rightly stated he can take Shane directly towards their camp or last known location and he seemed chirpy that this wouldn't be an issue
@@pyroAdapt well he did say to Shane who knows if their still there meaning they might have left so he wasn't guaranteed that if they got there the group would or wouldn't of been there
@@pyroAdapt both can be true. They can never be in one place more than one night and remember where they last stayed at. Those 2 aren't mutually exclusive. We also know that he wasn't lying as Dave and Tony mentioned that they're looking for a permanent place to stay.
Well Rick is to blame for bringing Randall to the farm. However I don't think Randall's group was looking for him because they left him for dead and Randall said they didn't stay anywhere longer than a day or two so I don't think he would've found his people and brought them back.
Dale was a good person that was unwilling to loose his goodness and humanity in order to live so he didn’t for very long. Shane dropped any pretense of morality that he had when the world was civilized very quickly and that’s why he had to be killed. Rick did a better job of balancing maintaining his humanity with doing what it takes to survive.
I 100% agree with Dale, but he was wrong. Randall would have ran back and ratted. He also directly attacked the group. There is the CHANCE that he could change but it's not worth the risk to the group. Eliminating the threat is the correct choice.
Yes. The chance he could be assimilated and rehabilitated isn’t high enough for me to consider it as the correct answer. If it were at Alexandria or the Prison, then I’d be with Dale. It takes no manpower to watch someone locked in a jail-cell they can’t possibly break out of. Food and water aren’t immediate issues in those communities either. And neither are walkers. So, the risk under those circumstances would be permissible.
Thing is that if you think Randal was wrong for attacking Ricks group then you should also agree Daryl shooting Dawn in S5 was also wrong. Beth attacked her for no reason, she defended herself resulting in Beths death and Daryl attacked and killed her. Rick shouldve just sat down and talked it out with Dawn instead of retaliating as Randals group was supposed to do?
Someone recently posted that S2 of TWD has aged like a fine and satisfying wine while the later seasons has aged like a sour milk 😃. I couldnt have agreed more. S2 reminded me of those great movies from the 70s like All the President's Man, Th Parallax View , The Godfather 1and 2, the Exorcist and Jaws, with their great storytelling, great character developments and slowburn intensity culminating in one of the greatest season finale in T.V. history.
"This is where you belong, Shane. This world, what it is now. This is where you belong. I may not have what it takes to last for long, but that's okay. At least I can say when the world goes to shit, I didn't let it take me down with it." ~Dale
You can look at Tara as an example. She’s someone who join the governor even if you say she didn’t know he was bad she still backed him up. When he started talking about taking over the prison and fighting everyone & kill them She didn’t join Rick until she lost everything. Oh, lets not forget about Negan. They all gave him and he was probably worse than that group.
Not to mention a similar situation happens in S5 with Dawn and the hospital group. Beth stabs Dawn, Dawn kills Beth in self defense, and Daryl kills Dawn. If we compare the Bar situation, Beth would be Dave and Tony, and Rick would be Dawn. Yet somehow Randals group was wrong but Daryl was right?
4:50 An old man called a 20 years old a kid, I'm sure you've heard that countless times. In the context, he was putting the kid term as in with no experience, yet to become a man, in body and in mind. 20 years is not enough for everyone.
I was a big fan of TWD but eventually I got tired of it for obvious reasons. Your videos make me remember the best of what the show could offer to us back then. Thanks!
I 100% believe Randal would be a help to the group right up until he finds a way to contact his buddies. He wouldn’t run off unless threatened, or if he felt confident he knew how to get to his group. He was definitely too risky to let go
I actually believe he would have never attempted to go back to his other group except unless his group came to him first and I have evidence for this. In Ep 10 Seasons 2: 18 miles out. Rick and Shaun were going to release him. But instead of just going back to his group his fear of being alone had him begging to join Rick’s group. Providing information about who he was, who he lost. And as so much that he was willing to give up information that he knows Maggie. Just to not be left alone.
I loved Dale!!! I wish me and him could have our own spin off and just travel around in the rv him teaching me things and just talking about life lol he reminds me of my uncle who passed away that would always go camping with us. Dale was a great character
“Lemme tell you somethin’ else man. If she was alive out there, saw you coming, all meth’d out with your buck knife-geek ears round ya neck, SHE’D RUN IN THE OTHER DIRECTION MAN.” 😂
Yes what was that argument? It's extremely common for older people to consider 20 year olds kids/boys/girls. The difference in maturity between someone who is 14 and 20 is a lot smaller than 20 and 30. There's a reason most people find it creepy for old people to date 20 year olds.
Man your videos make me just want to see this series allover again! Thanks for these videos. Your intellect is amazing. I learn something everytime I look at these. Again gracias!
i am truly blessed to have not gotten into this show until like season 10 or 11 was coming out😂 i could t imagine seeing season 1 and having to fucking wait every week for a new episode let alone half a year for another season
That's what fans do! Sheesh. People these days. 🙄 What makes things fun watching shows as they air, is brainstorming the possibilities of what the next outcome could be and seeing if you were right or faaaar wrong! FN mindless binge watch community. Silver, or gold spoon you need to eat from??
@@emekao502 that was my point….if i had to wait ofc i would but that would suck 😭 that show is TOO good to have to wait for new episodes and seasons that’s why im glad i didn’t hop on the wave till a couple years ago
Before I had to nope out due a spoiler at 6:40, I'll say I disagree with two points you raised: 5:20 You bring up that he fired on the main characters which was wrong because the main characters claim they were fired upon first. What motive would Randall have to believe them? You press further in implying that wanting a cease fire/truce puts the main characters in the obvious moral high ground/defensive-only killing, but again, that could be a ruse to either gain an upper hand via surprise attack or get out while they were ahead. 5:50 As you acknowledge, torture is not an effective means of interrogation, and often produces false statements if the victim believes they will result in less torture. Randall had every reason to believe that if he made himself an unwilling participant (1) in the other group's claimed crimes (2), he could paint himself as a good guy in a bad situation and worthy of redemption/recruitment/etc.
Those are fair objections. I don’t think they stand up to scrutiny though. Randall and the gang fired on Rick after they listened to Rick speak for a few seconds. They kinda took in what he said and started blasting, seemingly out of anger (I’m pretty sure one of them was angry about Dave and Tony being dead). But sure, you can reasonably claim that they had no incentive to trust Rick. But tactically speaking, it’s almost always better to try and avoid any direct combat. Both groups, at that point, didn’t even have sights on each other. Walking away was definitely in the realm of possibility. So, in principle, I’d say the incentive to retreat exists if and only if the people in question are decently intelligent. And since these raiders have survived and since we’ve seen how cunning Dave, Tony and Randall were - I think we can reasonably assume that they would’ve known de-escalation was the better choice but opted for violence anyway. As for the torture of Randall, it makes no sense as to why he would lie to Daryl about the size of his group (making it seem larger than it might be). If anything, it would’ve been smarter to just say they were a small band of nomads (because it’s less threatening; you don’t make threats when you’re tied up in a shack). All he had to do was talk. He claimed he wasn’t like them. Claimed he was only with them to survive. Yet he recounts to Daryl the night his group raped underaged girls (that he found “cute”). He denied having taken part in it - but we really have no reason to believe that, considering he took part in attacking our group after de-escalation attempts and considering that he seemed attached to a group he claimed he wasn’t attached to. That pretty much sealed the deal for him as far as I’m concerned. Even under stress, it wouldn’t be remotely rational to admit what he did as some ruse to escape interrogation. If he was conning the group, he’d say anything but “my group likes underage girls” Hence, it’s very likely that he wasn’t lying. Torture doesn’t always produce reliable information. True. But it certainly can, and I think we have enough reason to believe it did so here. So, as far as I can see, all the evidence points to Randall being a not so good person. Definitely not one that is likely to be trustworthy.
@@TheRealCaptainGold We all know Randall's group are not nice people. How do we the audience already know? Rick rejected Fat Tony and Mr. Nebraska. Rick refuse to let them join the farm and refuse to tell where the farm is. Fat Tony got hostile. "I'll shoot you 3 a88hole right now and take your god damn farm!". Also if you watch carefully Rick popped Mr. Nebraska head, popped 2 ton fat Tony and popped his head too. Now at the end of season 2 Rick told everybody that they come back regardless after death. Lol
Dale was a good guy, but I was absolutely annoyed with him through this. As you pointed out, there's a difference between killing a harmless person out of malice or enjoyment and killing a dangerous person who has already tried to harm you to remove them as a threat, especially when you're as vulnerable as they were. All that, "You're no better than them!" is just disgusting gaslighting meant to emotionally blackmail you into acquiescing to their argument. It's important to keep your humanity and be as ethical as reasonably possible when making tough decisions but being too soft and kindhearted in dangerous situations where someone wants to harm you or others is stupid and needlessly endangers yourself and the people you need to protect. And I'd go as far to say that it's actually morally and ethically contemptible to endanger other people to satisfy your own self-righteous image of yourself. It's the same as keeping a known pedophile (which Randel was) that you're related to around your kids because you don't want to make them feel excluded or isolated from their family 🤦♂️ At that point, you're not a good person - you're just weak. And waiting until they actually succeed in harming someone to do something about it just shows how little you value the safety of the members in your group. Either way, Dale needed to F off.
4:20 not that I'm a nihilist and don't agree with them but I still can't stand people saying "I'm right and they're wrong." The correct answer is usually "I don't know." Make your case just stay away from grand statements about right and wrong.
If you rewatch when Shane kills Randall it’s super clear that he wanted to get back to his group and kill all the farm people immediately. Shane’s false betrayal makes Randall lower his guard and return to his true self. Dale was wrong
Or maybe Randall was pretending to be cool with because Shane was saving him to join a new group. Randal could have just turned into whatever group he was in to survive. Fake basically.
I don't agree that Dale forged a 'fallacy' to 'make his case' I think he just simply didn't know Randal or his age. Which is why he specifies "young man" "kid" and "boy". I think Dale was trying to be as accurate as possible deducing his age.
Dale was one of my most favorite characters of the whole show through and through, I stood by his morale the whole way and be DAMNED to anyone that challenged it, he was keeping everyone's humanity alive and doing his BEST to make sure that no one ever fell down to such a dark place or anarchy
No Shane was right all along. Unfortunately the writers never had Rick re explore this in the later seasons when he goes ham the way Shane did. Dale was too good to continue in such a harsh world. Great character tho.
As a 10+ year vegan, your argument about veganism is 100% on point. None of us would harm an animal as long as it is objectively possible, unless presented with a set a circumstances that dictate the opposite. The philosophy behind it is that we should choose to spare the life of an animal if and whenever possible. That said, when it comes down to pure survival, anyone who says that they wouldn't do the necessary thing to sustain themselves, even if it means to kill an animal, is a big fat hypocrite.
I dunno man he didn't mean he was "a kid" like a literally child, he just means he's a young guy with not much life experience. It wasn't a legal claim. Also your point that he didn't listen to Rick wanting to keep peace is a bit unfair, he shot at them anyway because he doesn't know Rick like we do, he doesn't know if they're being genuine or not. Everyone's a potential hostile in this world and standing down because of a promise of peace but then getting killed for it because you didn't keep on your toes is something very possible in this situation
1. Still an appeal to emotion because he’s attempting to spark a specific emotional reaction with the people he’s speaking with, as opposed to relying on reason. He does similar things throughout the episode. Tells Rick “I know you don’t wanna do this” and to “think of the lesson you’re teaching Carl” He tried to get Andrea on his side by appealing to her emotions as well. He told Glenn that everyone was trying to make him scared, when Dale was trying to scare everyone with the idea of moral decay or atrophy. It’s definitely intentional. 2. My first inclination wouldn’t be to shoot a stranger I don’t even have my sights on. Vengeance is for stupid people. Dave and Tony got themselves killed? Best we walk away. Neither side had sights on the other. So no, it’s a totally fair point.
Yeah, but that’s information gained after the moral debate. Sort unfair to use it. If Dale was right, then people on my side of the issue would be right for the wrong reasons in the same way a broken clock is right twice a day.
@@TheRealCaptainGold thats true man. They were about to let him go before shane captured him. Hey. I have an idea for ur next video u should consider making that people might want to see. Its about the governor. What If the governor didn't kill hershel and decided to drop the sword. If he'd be able to coexist with Rick and his group if he decided to join them I think that would be an interesting video. 👍🏻
Dale was a very moral and good man, but Dale was very much an idealist who could not see the world around him for what it actually was.....a literal hellscape where the dead walked the land tearing what few people remained to pieces. He went on about how if they killed Randyl, a genuine threat to the safety of everyone there at the farm, then the world they knew would be dead, when it already was dead. I do believe ethically and morally Dale was right, and that in all actuality debating whether to kill Randyl was a good and right thing to do, for all the reasons listed by the creator of this video. But when you live in a situation like TWD, where law doesn't exist, and you're surrounded by survivors of a horrible and traumatic event who are all willing to do whatever it takes to survive, you need to do whatever you need to do to keep yourself and your loved ones safe at all costs. At a certain point, going to the absolute extremes is entirely justified, because for all of Dale's arguments, he'd never invite Randyl's group to the farm even if he had Herschel's blessing to do so. And why?? Because he's smart enough to know that would be a horrible idea, as those people would likely kill everyone there at the farm.
Imagine if Dale in the TV show fulfilled his comic counterpart. The walking dead TV show had the potential to be the greatest piece of television of all time.
I remember watching live and hw derided Season 2 was and annoyed folks were by Dale. I'm glad there's still discussion an reevaluation that adds to the conversations
2:15 is how far I am and I want to stop it there and counter his argument. He says that if they kill Randall it'll change the group forever. Well, the world is changed forever and it isn't for the better, so maybe they too must change and adapt in order to survive.
Shane had a mental break putting everyones lives at risk over his best friends wife hed been with MAX 69 days. He didnt care about the group or their safety, literally all he was worried about was desperately winning his bo back at all cost. Group be damned. People like to leave that little shane tidbit out. Never a bigger simp ever lived.
Tbh Randal was so stupid. Him telling them about his group of 30 rapists was one of the stupidest things anyone could ever do. Telling them about how he knew Maggie was also stupid asf.
He could’ve told them all of that info, their location, offered to help and a whole host of other common sense rhetoric, that required no substantial level of human intelligence, that would’ve led the group to trust him. All before getting tortured. He didn’t precisely because he felt a kinship with those people and because he, himself, was not a decent person worthy of trust. I find the arguments positing that he was scared of Rick’s group to simply be lacking. He had no rational reason to have fear considering the Atlanta group saved him, cared for him and didn’t outright kill him. Whereas his group left him for dead. The evidence really points in a specific direction and that direction doesn’t support Dale’s position unfortunately.
One thing I disagree with in this video is that the walkers were on the top of the food chain. All through the series it was proven time and time again that humans were the real threat and the zombies were only brought in to increase tension from time to time.
Dale was the bleeding-heart liberal of the troop. His moral, or political opinions, were a danger to the group during this point. Sorry, Dale, but for the safety, and survival of everyone, this individual had to die.
At 1:49 Dale is weak. You don't let an enemy live at your gates. Prisoners consume vital resources with no ROI. I just wouldn't waste a round on him. Follow-up: When dealing with Alexandria or the prison, the decision would be the same.
Without even watching this vid, no. No he was not. Shane did nothing wrong. I'll watch the vid now but you'll change nothing! NOTHING! Edit: Okay so you were 100% right. Great vid lol.
Dale's words really can be felt in Season 9 when Rick seemingly come full circle and was back to " the world belongs to all of us now"
Humanity only thrives when we learn to live with each other and get along. The idea of civilization is what saved humanity from extinction. Something Dale fully understood before the end.
Shane's methods are necessary for the intermediate. Dale's were necessary for when the intermediate was over. I think that about sums it up right.
Eloquently and concisely stated. Gold tier comment.
He was suppose to live until season 5 where he died in Bobs place it was shown in the comic book
@@omarhaq9635yea idk why they added bob for one season just to kill him in the next.
@@2200shotta welcome to the walking dead
@@2200shotta the actor that played dale is good friends with the OG writer and left the show when he was fired
Randall's group didn't become monsters shaped by their environment. They were monsters who immediately took advantage of the chaos , and he was a willing member of them.
Good point
Like those “real young,real cute” girls he mentioned he and his friends ran into.
Honestly....if there was a zombie apocalypse out there and I knew all kinds of monsters (human ones) were roaming the streets willing to kill and harm absolutely everyone....I would probably join one group just for protection....especially when you don't know about actual communities that are thriving out there. For all you know you might be either alone and get killed by someone over a can of food or stick to the killers who will kill someone else instead....kinda like Daryl 'joined' claimers even though he wasn't a rapist....yes he did stop them from raping Carl but...would he if it were someone he didn't know?? Who knows.
@@antifurryfoundation55idk why Randall sat there and told Darrel that story about the girls when he is trying to convince them he is not a bad guy. Nobody would sit there and say that lol
I think Hershel called it right when he suggested putting Randall down while he was still impaled on the fence. He’d already marked himself as hostile by shooting at you and putting him out of his misery in that moment and sparing him from being torn apart by walkers was more humane than what the remainder of his life amounted to be.
Bro ended up being an excuse to kill Rick like wtf
The dumbest mistake was bringing Randel to the farm
Agree
Plot
What about Tara? She actually got people killed and destroying their home.
@@MrGsking12Tara did not want to there, randall was literally part of people that wanted to hurt others
i understand why they did it but i feel like my biggiest issue with that part of the season was how they ended up handling randel. like that whole thing felt almost like a waste or just a slap in the face to whichever side you were on.
Dale actor wanted to get killed off the show because they fired the original producer who was a friend of his too.
Woah I didn't know that, wonder why the original producer was fired
@@everybodywalktheDinosaur unfortunately its because he had more expensive ideas, search up 'Frank Darabont's epic rejected plan' he talks about what he would have done in season 2, its pretty cool!
@@everybodywalktheDinosaur wasn't the producer, it was showrunner and director frank Darabont. same guy that directed Shawshank redemption. basically, amc wanted to increase the episode count per season by double and lower the budget and frank said it would make the show a lot worse and didn't agree with it so they fired him. Dale's actor was good friends with him and is in a few of his movies
thats why a lot of the following seasons take place in one spot for a long time such as the farm, prison, etc and had less walkers than season 1. was a shame because frank was the guy Robert Kirkman entrusted to bring this to live actions and the people we got after aren't genius directors like he was. Go back and watch season one and some of season 2 and pay attention to how much better the dialogue and directing was, we were robbed of what would have been a top 5 tv show of all time. I'm still fan but mostly because andrew lincoln was so damn good in this show.
@@chrispember172well said
The actor who played Dale actually died a few years back
Dale calling him a kid isnt a fallacy. Hes a old man, its pretty normally for old ppl to call young men kids
Still technically a fallacy.
@@TheRealCaptainGold I understand that it is technically incorrect & I'm sure Dale knew very well that he was a technical adult, but I also believe he TRULY saw him as still "just a kid". Tho (IMO) he's not doing it in the typical way that older adults can commonly recognise someone young enough to be their child or grandchild as a fully developed adult while simultaneously recognising that they lack so much life experience as compared to themselves that they are like a child comparatively. I believe he's desperately grasping at lost innocence, he's trying to fool himself, not them, he's desperately clinging to the fallacy that "he's just a kid" & not a 20yro POS.
Poor Dale, reality sucks, but you can't change it or ignore it & expect to survive in it, you can only make the best of it.
@@u-neekusername4430 no, I guarantee that was not the case. I guarantee he was calling him a kid because he’s an old man you’re looking way too into it man.
I literally just turned 29 last week and I still have a dogs that call me a kid or they’ll say jokes like I have socks, older than you. It’s literally all about perspective. If you’re talking to a 60 year old man, they will look at a 30 old like there’s still a kid.
With me and my wife a year and a half ago went on vacation we were at this museum and there was these high school kids there too and literally one of the coordinators confused me and my wife who were in our late 20s at the time as high school students because the age difference between me and the museum coordinator was so much that her eye looks like a teenager still it’s literally all about perspective
@@Faceplay2 Mate, I think there's been a miscommunication. I didn't say anything that contradicts your 2nd paragraph. I acknowledged that aspect of it since *I* do that myself, I certainly can't deny it (I'm not close to 60). I think you misunderstood my intentions here. This is/was my personal impression/character psyc analysis of Dale.
I'm not a writer (nor have neurotypical thought patterns) so I understand if I wasn't overtly clear about it. I was trying to say that there was another layer to Dale's obvious/normal/typical "older person calling someone a kid". YES, he _was_ doing that, but there was also a deeper level to it (again IMO)....n looking deep is kinda the definition of character analysis, so I absolutely did that.
I'm sorry I didn't make that clear n seem to have somehow struck a nerve...maybe you assumed I'm GenZ (cuz so damn many) n not a "young" GenX w/GenZ 20yro who's life experience of people is w/physical people. If so all good, that stuff gets to me too... it's why I replied. 😊
Kid* is relative. Minor* is not. Randall was* a kid. But he certainly wasn't a minor and* is clearly responsible for his own actions.
It’s a shame Dale didn’t live long enough to see Ricks evolution from the “you kill, you live” mentality to passivity after all out war.
100% agreed. I was happy that Hershel got to see that change at the least just before his death.
They kinda took Dale being the moral compass and moved it over to Hershel.
@@AzureRadiothat’s actually because Hershel was supposed to be the one that died on the farm and Dale was originally supposed to be the figure that Hershel was during the prison. They switched directors for season 2 and the actor that played dale didn’t want to work on the show without him, so they switched the characters
Yeah but Dale's mentality made sense it was still early he hadn't experienced so much bad stuff he assumed it reasonable to hold onto humanity. Rick's on the other hand makes no fucking sense he spared negan to be "better" but he's still killing people some for even less then what negan did hell even when Rick bomb's the CRM base it was nice of him to not consider that most of those soldiers might've been forced like he was. Just find it funny during the negan war they made it about "perspectives" and two sides of the coin at a lame attempt to redeem negan but pretty much abandon that mind set after it was over even with that long hair guy who had beef with daryl and the kid on the bridge Rick says to him "stitches won't fix what I do to you" Rick you sound like a fucking idiot not a badass I mean seriously you'll let a guy live who brutally murdered your friend right infront of you and his pregnant wife but you'll kill a guy because....he was angry he didn't get a bit of extra water and not to mention Rick is also trying bring a group together that already has tons of bad blood between them and Rick threatens the guy and tells him to leave yeah fucking genius.
We'd just see him complaining non-stop like before. And die immediately in the harsher world after season 2. I dunno what we'd gain
And we already have Morgan as Rick's foil. I don't think we needed a worse one for any longer than we did
@@reeceburns8077shut up
I have always liked Season 2 people say it was slow and boring I disagree . The Barn Walkers , Shane's decent into Madness ect. It was the Season that was building the Characters and the show became like watching people we felt we knew and rooted for .
EXACTLY! Completely agree
I enjoyed Season 2 when it was released. I understood why people said it was slow, but I much preferred TWD before it became Seal Team Carol and gun porn. (Nothing against Carol the character but when every character turned into Black Ops, the post apoc charm was gone for me.)
It's better then the repetitiveness of the last, I would say 5 seasons
@@saltytbone perfectly said! Love your pov
Me personally I got into Walking Dead back when season 8 was airing. I enjoyed season 2 since I didn’t have to wait a week in between episodes but I could see that season being kinda boring for the people who did have to wait.
Dale is a super underrated character due to his lack of longevity in the tv series.
Unfortunately behind the scenes politics stopped him from being an all time character like Hershel.
Can you elaborate a tiny bit? Was he forced off the show?
@@cbeaudry4646 Frank Darabont the showrunner up until season 2 was “released” Dale’s actor stood with Darabont, his “regime” and creative direction, he asked to be killed off due to this. TWD accepted Jeffrey DeMunn’s (Dale) request.
@@cbeaudry4646 Also, we will never know how long Dale’s character was supposed to survive in the show. But a reasonable speculation on the basis of his possibly superior comic book counterpart is that he most likely would have survived until the post-Terminus arc in Season 5 receiving Bob’s death. Instead of a bullsh!t walker encounter in season 2.
@@LeinkesterThat is what happened to the worser Dale but keep in mind that the TV show loved changing & adding new deaths to the show. Remember Andrea? Shane? Abraham? Rosita? Tyrees? Carl? Lori? The TV show loved making their deaths different
I hated his character, such a busy body always ready to spout his virtue signaling trash that has no pragmatic use in a damn zombie apocalypse.
"You’re a decent man! so is Rick! But Shane.. he’s different" 🎅🏻
**dale in the afterlife seeing Rick absolutely murdering anyone that is a threat to the group:** "still better than Shane tho-" 🎅
"Shane's still a Hoe Hoe Hoe" 🎅
I'll still never forgive Carl for that zombie
@@ErrorEditzIraqI mean, yeah. The fact that Shane so quickly resorted to the most ruthless solution says much about him.
@@DM-Oz i do realize that, but it feels like that's what Shane would say after seeing the worst of people
Dale may have been wrong about Randall but the group absolutely needed him to avoid acting strictly out of fear. He made them consider the possibilities more rationally rather than just go along with Shane, whose judgment at that point was questionable at best.
Dale was 100% correct morally, it was irrelevant though given the State of the the world.
Making them stop and question was enough
@@AzureRadio Plus his group thought he was dead so it didn't matter because they wasn't gonna come looking anyway so they did let him go he probably wouldn't of made it back because he was injured
@@AzureRadio Dale was aware of this, he said he may not have what it takes to last in this world
honestly i feel like there had to be a way to deal with this but the problem is again its if the writers were like we cant do this for the rest of the show so they just got rid of him in the most rushed and anticalmatic way possible that i feel like goes against what the rest of the episodes were trying to say and honestly kind of feels like a slap to the face if you were invested on both sides.
I dunno. How much would Dale's advice really have helped against the governer or the other monstr people. I feel like he would have encouraged mercy against enemies we know would not return it.
I feel like he would have been a downside to the group until they hit Alexandria.
At the end of the day he revealed his true colors to Shane, who in turn snapped his neck. "You're gonna love it with us." The opposite of how he acted to the group that his group was terrible.
Yeah. There's no argument after that. The point of the Randal situation wasn't to prove that he should be spared, but that Rick needed to learn his lesson.
He said that because Shane was holding him at gun point. Randal knew they left him for dead and immediately realized they weren't the right people to be with. No way to prove he actually was a bad person.
@@Re-Bourne
Nah, group he was with was dangerous from the start.
Fun fact the scene where Dale tries to convince the group to spare Randall’s life is actually a little nod to the movie "12 Angry Men", def recommend if you good writing, and interesting drama
I think 12 angry men was originally a play :D I think I read it in high school
I feel like Randal was lying about his groups numbers just so he stopped getting tortured by Daryl
That is a possibility. A confession made under that kind of duress isn't necessarily reliable.
@@CanItAlreadygotta keep extracting information to see if the answers change
@@JamesDeBalltorture doesn't work
@@doggolovescheese1310 a trained man can endure the torture & not break. An untrained man will fold under torture & give in. Torture in fact does work
@@doggolovescheese1310
It can work. Torture is unethical because its effectiveness doesn’t warrant its use. If I remember correctly, it’s a bit less effective than professional interrogation methods. But less effective doesn’t mean “doesn’t work”. You can definitely get the info you want through it, but it isn’t considered to be the optimal strategy.
I forgot about that interrogation scene where Randall was talking about underaged girls. That really took me off the fence and made me in favor of your conclusion.
But that's part of the trial he would have
Yup, even if he states he didn't partake he never shows disgust towards this and wouldn't he not want to find something better than a group that does inexplicable things to people
While I understand dale, Randall was always in a losing position
@@ZeonEons What were his options? Leave and be alone and likely be hunted by the group he was leaving as a traitor, NVM the fact that being alone in the woods with almost no food/water no transportation or shelter and likely very limited means of protection is a death sentence on its own. Try and stop the event from occurring in which he would likely be killed himself? He did find another group and they killed him, the fact that he didn't take part in the rapes and how he spoke about the incident kind of shows his moral compass isn't broken.
Same. I completely forgot that he implied that he was a pedo (all be it I haven’t watched S2 in 8 years when I was 12)
@@DustinDonald-cz9ot Those are all valid and good reasons
I was on the fence until Randall was talking about the young girls, and how he almost smiled when thinking about it! ......I feel he was an active participant in what went down!
Will never understand why this season got so much hate. I absolutely loved the entire season 2 on the farm. The ending of the farm era was amazing
Its my favorite. Best season to just let play in the background because its a ton of dialog thats rich and well acted but mellow,
It's great to binge, pretty terrible when you're waiting sometimes multiple weeks for another farm episode.
@@kyleellis1825 yea the waiting period was a drag at times but that season wrapped up wonderfully imo
@@spoons250 completely agree. I never mind watching that season over again. I love the way that season wrapped up
@@ashleykathleen85 It's funny, because some seasons are better to binge like S2, but others like S1/3 are better with a few days/a week between them for more tension.
I personally loved Dale, Jeffrey Demunn is an unbelievable actor and his Randall speech is so powerful
Argument is simple. Killing is wrong under any circumstance except self defense or protecting someone else from harm.
The saddening reality in Randalls case was, that he was most likely going to assist his group to retaliate. That is the tragedy of the world of The Walking Dead.
Shane saw it right from the start and it took Rick until he killed Shane to realize it too. That is the sad reality of the world.
That is what makes Dale's story so utterly tragic. He had the insight to realize who was made for this world. Sadly he wasn't one of the ones who live.
Why would he? Had they not tortured him he had every reason to stay and be helpful. His group abandoned him for dead, this group had a pretty nice setup on a farm and saved his life.
@@ds7307 truth is we will never know what randalls intentions were. i mean i feel like he was just a plot device and i feel like once the writters eather just did not know where to take that plot or ran out of time or both they were like well lets just kill him off like the whole past few episodes did not mean anything.
yeah killing is wrong, but it's not like the group took pleasure out of killing randal, hence why they wanted his death to be quick and painless
I think the reason S2 is viewed more fondly now isn’t just a comparison to later seasons, but how tv and entertainment has evolved since it aired.
Back then, people wanted spectacle and action and anything less was “boring” but nowadays we have amazing slow burn dramas and people expect more character work, interesting and engaging stories and following a more canonical narrative… especially since you can binge the season and follow all of the little subnarratives and character journeys more closely, and things like foreshadowing and slow character building works better on streaming. It’s a different entertainment zeitgeist now than it was over a decade ago…
S2 was just ahead of its time…
Hershel pretty much found out right away about that new world. Dale was still stuck in the old world
Which is crazy considering how disillusioned Hershel was about the walkers in the barn.
@@Peejay09if Dale had survived maybe his perspective of the world and keeping the groups humanity would have changed just by looking at the Governor Terminus Saviors the Whispers the claimers the CRM and Other Evil groups and Characters oh and I can’t forget the commonwealth the Croat In NYC And Possibly Jadis in the CRM even Daryl once said that people like Beta or Negan don’t deserve to live because those people are just simply evil one example is the Governor the fucking governor was just plain Evil he didn’t even care about the Prison Group nor of his own Group
i think it's good to have a moral compass in a world where you might have to kill people just to survive, it helps keep peoples humanity and prevent them from becoming someone like the governor and becoming too far gone, i mean the group was humane enough to listen to dale and talk to him about it, so having someone like dale in the world they live in is a good thing
@@somevrdude88 I think that the governor was already like that I mean he lost his wife just a few weeks before the apocalypse he lost his daughter in Woodbury and the governor didn’t exactly had the best childhood when he was a teen
It’s crazy how quickly you put these out considering the quality and editing, I don’t know if you have a bunch of scripts saved up or if you’re just super efficient but hats off to you man
Ton of scripts saved. Record on my work days. Edit and render on off days.
@@TheRealCaptainGold keep going Gold, the videos are great
Same man we'll done
Farcry 5. Took me a minute to remember where that music was from.
I am so glad I'm not the only one who noticed
11:00. Randall can handle himself when come to walkers. Remember this...Rick and Shane dropped Randall off. Rick tossed a knife far away to hint Randall that he can cut himself loose after they leave. Remember that Randall spill the beans that he knows Maggie? Shane tried to pop him but Rick stopped Shane and they got into a fight? While Rick and Shane was fighting Randall was able to handle a walker with his hand tied behind his back. So in a nut shell.."getting rid of Randall" was 100% OKAY.
Also all of this happened because Rick decided to save Randall. Should of just left him to get eaten or at least put round in him.
they also left him an unloaded gun too
He’d have been a great distraction
In regards to Dale he met his end because he _wasn’t paying attention!_ Seriously all throughout the show Walkers *will* start growling and snarling when they see some fresh food so I refuse to believe the one that got Dale went into Ninja Mode until it was right on top of him! Dale was too busy having his crisis of conscience to focus on his surroundings so he got gotten 😒😒😒
Saying Dale calling Randall a kid is "a fallacy" is kind of lame tbh. Obviously everyone knows that 20 is legal adult age. It's not literal. Anyone over 25 would refer to a 20-year-old as a kid. Randall wasn't even allowed to legally drink in America yet.
Still a fallacy used to elicit a sympathetic response not tied to an actual rational argument. 💁🏻♂️
Not to mention how old Dale is. Of course that to him Randall is a kid.
Hes fighting age.
not kinda lame, REALLY lame.
16 is old enough to drive, 18 is old enough to vote, 19 to drink some places, 21 in others.
Dale calling anyone an adult a kid, is arrogant beyond belief. If anything he's an ancient man out of touch with the modern era.
I think Dale is right in a lot of ways in this discussion, but after learning everything about the raider group and what they did to that group with the underage girls, he was wrong in trying to protect this kid. The episode where Rick and Shane were fighting, he briefly got away and managed to kill a zombie with his hands tied behind his back so there was definitely a chance that he could survive and get back to his raider group. The only thing that I could say that he could possibly add a point to assimilation due to the fact that in the very same episode he saved Rick and Shane when he could have easily driven off in the car that he stole.
Dale is morally right in what he’s discussing, but with everything laid out in your video he was wrong. Had this kid been part of some wanderers who lost their settlement to raiders/zombies and were just aggressively defending themselves I’d understand a little bit more, but the fact remains; his group attacked Rick, Dale, and Glenn when they could have discussed things, they were raiders and rapists, his release could easily mean that the farm gets discovered. The cards aren’t in his favor
The thing is Dale doesnt have all the info about Randall, he isnt the viewer like we are and he isnt omnipresent in the future of the show after he died.
The other thing about the Bar fight is Randals groups pov: if you rolled up on a group of strangers who killed your friends and they claimed it was self defense, what is your reaction? do you believe the strangers or take revenge?
I mean we see in S5 Beth stabbed Dawn first for no reason but Dawn still gets gunned down for retaliating in self defense anyway even though Beth attacked her first? By that logic Beth should be in the wrong and Rick shouldve just sat down and talked it out with Dawn right?
@@xvoidxhunter2129 ya i thought this exact thing but randall literally says he knew they were bad people that have raped, tortured, etc. Its common sense at that point to believe rick and co it was self defense. ykwim?
The far cry 5 music in the back goes extremely well with this
Dale was so cool moral wise just the best. I have so damm respect for people like him who are fighting to save lifes.
"He's 20. So he isn't a kid." Tell me you're under 35 without telling me you're under 35.
What a wildly false assumption. I'm 49 years old, and 20 is an adult by every standard in which we measure. Certainly, if you rape or murder you deserve an adult punishment. True now and doubly true when living in a time and/or place where you have no method of incarceration or reasonable evaluation of rehabilitation.
@@justinamerican8200tell me you’re a conservative without telling me you’re a conservative
@@timpoolssentientbeanie5646 Actually, not a conservative. Pro-gay marriage, and have been since I was about 19. Pro legalization of weed and several other low-impact drugs. Pro-prison reform.
You need me to be a conservative so you can assume. So you can avoid thinking.
@@justinamerican8200 You don't have to steer away from conservatism to believe that gay marriage should be allowed. I'm a conservative-leaning moderate who mostly shares conservative values, and I'm pro-gay marriage. In fact, I'm in a same-sex relationship and plan to marry my boyfriend one day.
Ethically he was right. Practically? Not so much. I wanted Randall to be let go so bad but everytime I went over the situation in my head and asked myself how they can be sure he won't turn on them and come back to kill them with his group I can never give myself a single real answer or solution. There's just no way to be safe unless they pack up and leave the area forever. There's just no choice but to kill him or keep him captive forever rwhich is so fucked up to think about but it's true.
So this thought just came to me. But I may be mistaken. Why didn't they ask Randall where the camp was or they probably did at some point and for some reason he never gave that information
I know at the end of the season he agrees to take Shane to this group (which we know shane only wants to kill him and set a trap for rick)
@@ZeonEons I do remember when Daryl was beating him he said " I don't know... we were never one place more than a night!" But then he went on to tell Shane exactly where they last were so odds are he was lying to Daryl which is puzzling because your think of he was so scared of being hit again by Daryl he would tell the truth and not risk getting caught In another lie. Clearly he had some emotional attachment to that group.
@@pyroAdapt Cheers that was it. That's why I was confused of the "we were never one place more than a night"
But as you rightly stated he can take Shane directly towards their camp or last known location and he seemed chirpy that this wouldn't be an issue
@@pyroAdapt well he did say to Shane who knows if their still there meaning they might have left so he wasn't guaranteed that if they got there the group would or wouldn't of been there
@@pyroAdapt both can be true. They can never be in one place more than one night and remember where they last stayed at. Those 2 aren't mutually exclusive. We also know that he wasn't lying as Dave and Tony mentioned that they're looking for a permanent place to stay.
Well Rick is to blame for bringing Randall to the farm. However I don't think Randall's group was looking for him because they left him for dead and Randall said they didn't stay anywhere longer than a day or two so I don't think he would've found his people and brought them back.
Dale was a good person that was unwilling to loose his goodness and humanity in order to live so he didn’t for very long.
Shane dropped any pretense of morality that he had when the world was civilized very quickly and that’s why he had to be killed.
Rick did a better job of balancing maintaining his humanity with doing what it takes to survive.
I 100% agree with Dale, but he was wrong. Randall would have ran back and ratted. He also directly attacked the group.
There is the CHANCE that he could change but it's not worth the risk to the group.
Eliminating the threat is the correct choice.
Yes. The chance he could be assimilated and rehabilitated isn’t high enough for me to consider it as the correct answer. If it were at Alexandria or the Prison, then I’d be with Dale. It takes no manpower to watch someone locked in a jail-cell they can’t possibly break out of. Food and water aren’t immediate issues in those communities either. And neither are walkers. So, the risk under those circumstances would be permissible.
Thing is that if you think Randal was wrong for attacking Ricks group then you should also agree Daryl shooting Dawn in S5 was also wrong. Beth attacked her for no reason, she defended herself resulting in Beths death and Daryl attacked and killed her. Rick shouldve just sat down and talked it out with Dawn instead of retaliating as Randals group was supposed to do?
@@xvoidxhunter2129
Really appreciating these deep dives, and helps to emphasize that, when TWD was at its best, it was a HELLUVA good show!
Someone recently posted that S2 of TWD has aged like a fine and satisfying wine while the later seasons has aged like a sour milk 😃. I couldnt have agreed more. S2 reminded me of those great movies from the 70s like All the President's Man, Th Parallax View , The Godfather 1and 2, the Exorcist and Jaws, with their great storytelling, great character developments and slowburn intensity culminating in one of the greatest season finale in T.V. history.
"This is where you belong, Shane. This world, what it is now. This is where you belong.
I may not have what it takes to last for long, but that's okay. At least I can say when the world goes to shit, I didn't let it take me down with it."
~Dale
You can look at Tara as an example. She’s someone who join the governor even if you say she didn’t know he was bad she still backed him up. When he started talking about taking over the prison and fighting everyone & kill them She didn’t join Rick until she lost everything. Oh, lets not forget about Negan. They all gave him and he was probably worse than that group.
Not to mention a similar situation happens in S5 with Dawn and the hospital group. Beth stabs Dawn, Dawn kills Beth in self defense, and Daryl kills Dawn.
If we compare the Bar situation, Beth would be Dave and Tony, and Rick would be Dawn. Yet somehow Randals group was wrong but Daryl was right?
People telling me that they hated season 2 the most has always been the quickest way to tell that they're not worth talking to about TWD.
4:50 An old man called a 20 years old a kid, I'm sure you've heard that countless times. In the context, he was putting the kid term as in with no experience, yet to become a man, in body and in mind. 20 years is not enough for everyone.
exactly, he was obviously written as immature and inexperienced through life, when a kid becomes a man is highly subjective and is a very long process
I was a big fan of TWD but eventually I got tired of it for obvious reasons. Your videos make me remember the best of what the show could offer to us back then. Thanks!
I 100% believe Randal would be a help to the group right up until he finds a way to contact his buddies. He wouldn’t run off unless threatened, or if he felt confident he knew how to get to his group. He was definitely too risky to let go
I actually believe he would have never attempted to go back to his other group except unless his group came to him first and I have evidence for this. In Ep 10 Seasons 2: 18 miles out. Rick and Shaun were going to release him. But instead of just going back to his group his fear of being alone had him begging to join Rick’s group. Providing information about who he was, who he lost. And as so much that he was willing to give up information that he knows Maggie. Just to not be left alone.
I just noticed thw thumbnail, oh Dale resting your rifle on your shoulder on the scope. Sweet innocent Dale, go zero your rifle back in.
That wont cause problems if its of quality manufacturing
I loved Dale!!! I wish me and him could have our own spin off and just travel around in the rv him teaching me things and just talking about life lol he reminds me of my uncle who passed away that would always go camping with us. Dale was a great character
The intro scene “carol… I think it’s time we start to consider… the other possibilities”
“Lemme tell you somethin’ else man. If she was alive out there, saw you coming, all meth’d out with your buck knife-geek ears round ya neck, SHE’D RUN IN THE OTHER DIRECTION MAN.” 😂
@@TheRealCaptainGold I love how Shane is engraved in everyone’s heads what a legend
he was a kid, even at 20 he wasn't old enough to drink.
Yes what was that argument? It's extremely common for older people to consider 20 year olds kids/boys/girls. The difference in maturity between someone who is 14 and 20 is a lot smaller than 20 and 30. There's a reason most people find it creepy for old people to date 20 year olds.
Man your videos make me just want to see this series allover again! Thanks for these videos. Your intellect is amazing. I learn something everytime I look at these. Again gracias!
i am truly blessed to have not gotten into this show until like season 10 or 11 was coming out😂 i could t imagine seeing season 1 and having to fucking wait every week for a new episode let alone half a year for another season
That's what fans do! Sheesh. People these days. 🙄 What makes things fun watching shows as they air, is brainstorming the possibilities of what the next outcome could be and seeing if you were right or faaaar wrong! FN mindless binge watch community. Silver, or gold spoon you need to eat from??
@@thatbobusguy somebody help this fanboy understand my point cause he missed it
It was soooo painful😭😭
@@emekao502 that was my point….if i had to wait ofc i would but that would suck 😭 that show is TOO good to have to wait for new episodes and seasons that’s why im glad i didn’t hop on the wave till a couple years ago
I watched all 11 seasons in 3 months. Loved it!!
Yup looking back the second season made all of us fall in love with all the characters. It’s an amazing season even with the few slow episodes.
Before I had to nope out due a spoiler at 6:40, I'll say I disagree with two points you raised:
5:20 You bring up that he fired on the main characters which was wrong because the main characters claim they were fired upon first. What motive would Randall have to believe them? You press further in implying that wanting a cease fire/truce puts the main characters in the obvious moral high ground/defensive-only killing, but again, that could be a ruse to either gain an upper hand via surprise attack or get out while they were ahead.
5:50 As you acknowledge, torture is not an effective means of interrogation, and often produces false statements if the victim believes they will result in less torture. Randall had every reason to believe that if he made himself an unwilling participant (1) in the other group's claimed crimes (2), he could paint himself as a good guy in a bad situation and worthy of redemption/recruitment/etc.
Those are fair objections. I don’t think they stand up to scrutiny though.
Randall and the gang fired on Rick after they listened to Rick speak for a few seconds. They kinda took in what he said and started blasting, seemingly out of anger (I’m pretty sure one of them was angry about Dave and Tony being dead). But sure, you can reasonably claim that they had no incentive to trust Rick. But tactically speaking, it’s almost always better to try and avoid any direct combat. Both groups, at that point, didn’t even have sights on each other. Walking away was definitely in the realm of possibility. So, in principle, I’d say the incentive to retreat exists if and only if the people in question are decently intelligent. And since these raiders have survived and since we’ve seen how cunning Dave, Tony and Randall were - I think we can reasonably assume that they would’ve known de-escalation was the better choice but opted for violence anyway.
As for the torture of Randall, it makes no sense as to why he would lie to Daryl about the size of his group (making it seem larger than it might be). If anything, it would’ve been smarter to just say they were a small band of nomads (because it’s less threatening; you don’t make threats when you’re tied up in a shack). All he had to do was talk. He claimed he wasn’t like them. Claimed he was only with them to survive. Yet he recounts to Daryl the night his group raped underaged girls (that he found “cute”). He denied having taken part in it - but we really have no reason to believe that, considering he took part in attacking our group after de-escalation attempts and considering that he seemed attached to a group he claimed he wasn’t attached to. That pretty much sealed the deal for him as far as I’m concerned. Even under stress, it wouldn’t be remotely rational to admit what he did as some ruse to escape interrogation. If he was conning the group, he’d say anything but “my group likes underage girls” Hence, it’s very likely that he wasn’t lying. Torture doesn’t always produce reliable information. True. But it certainly can, and I think we have enough reason to believe it did so here.
So, as far as I can see, all the evidence points to Randall being a not so good person. Definitely not one that is likely to be trustworthy.
@@TheRealCaptainGold We all know Randall's group are not nice people. How do we the audience already know? Rick rejected Fat Tony and Mr. Nebraska. Rick refuse to let them join the farm and refuse to tell where the farm is. Fat Tony got hostile. "I'll shoot you 3 a88hole right now and take your god damn farm!". Also if you watch carefully Rick popped Mr. Nebraska head, popped 2 ton fat Tony and popped his head too. Now at the end of season 2 Rick told everybody that they come back regardless after death. Lol
Man that FarCry 5 Music Hits Hard, and who would’ve thought it would fit so well with The Walking Dead? 😅
Great choice of Music 😁
The only thing i didnt like about Walking Dead was the lack of Nachos. Seriously, they could have saved the entire series by adding that
Don’t forget the dip.
Dale was a good guy, but I was absolutely annoyed with him through this.
As you pointed out, there's a difference between killing a harmless person out of malice or enjoyment and killing a dangerous person who has already tried to harm you to remove them as a threat, especially when you're as vulnerable as they were. All that, "You're no better than them!" is just disgusting gaslighting meant to emotionally blackmail you into acquiescing to their argument.
It's important to keep your humanity and be as ethical as reasonably possible when making tough decisions but being too soft and kindhearted in dangerous situations where someone wants to harm you or others is stupid and needlessly endangers yourself and the people you need to protect.
And I'd go as far to say that it's actually morally and ethically contemptible to endanger other people to satisfy your own self-righteous image of yourself. It's the same as keeping a known pedophile (which Randel was) that you're related to around your kids because you don't want to make them feel excluded or isolated from their family 🤦♂️
At that point, you're not a good person - you're just weak. And waiting until they actually succeed in harming someone to do something about it just shows how little you value the safety of the members in your group. Either way, Dale needed to F off.
Dale hurts cuz it feels like they just killed him because they got a new old dude
I understand Dale and sympathize. Going further, I believe if I were there that I would be persuaded by him. But he was wrong. No doubt about that.
Far Cry 5 music? Gave me some nostalgia.
4:20 not that I'm a nihilist and don't agree with them but I still can't stand people saying "I'm right and they're wrong." The correct answer is usually "I don't know." Make your case just stay away from grand statements about right and wrong.
If you rewatch when Shane kills Randall it’s super clear that he wanted to get back to his group and kill all the farm people immediately. Shane’s false betrayal makes Randall lower his guard and return to his true self. Dale was wrong
Or maybe Randall was pretending to be cool with because Shane was saving him to join a new group. Randal could have just turned into whatever group he was in to survive. Fake basically.
I really liked your analysis. It’s a hard thing to explain your point of view and have an engaging voice. You did both very well.
Dale was WRONG.
Very, very wrong.
That being said, he went head-up with the strongest walker on the show.
It opened him up like a can of sardines.
Dale is a great example of loving a character while disagreeing with them. I loved his heart and compassion. He was a great person, we just disagree.
I don't agree that Dale forged a 'fallacy' to 'make his case' I think he just simply didn't know Randal or his age. Which is why he specifies "young man" "kid" and "boy". I think Dale was trying to be as accurate as possible deducing his age.
Im older than Randal is but im still a "kid" to elderly because im in that College age bracket
@@xvoidxhunter2129type shit
Dale was one of my most favorite characters of the whole show through and through, I stood by his morale the whole way and be DAMNED to anyone that challenged it, he was keeping everyone's humanity alive and doing his BEST to make sure that no one ever fell down to such a dark place or anarchy
No Shane was right all along. Unfortunately the writers never had Rick re explore this in the later seasons when he goes ham the way Shane did. Dale was too good to continue in such a harsh world. Great character tho.
Dale was one of my favorite characters. If I had a group of survivors, he’d be one of them.
Dale was right, the world around him was wrong
Tbf, "Just a kid" doesn't mean literally a kid, it's a figure of speech i.e. he's young
Can you make videos on the governor?
What if he did redeem himself with his new family?
Dude, I'm in my 30s and I'd call a 20 year old a kid
Im 20 and I'd call a 20 year old a kid tbh
As a 10+ year vegan, your argument about veganism is 100% on point. None of us would harm an animal as long as it is objectively possible, unless presented with a set a circumstances that dictate the opposite. The philosophy behind it is that we should choose to spare the life of an animal if and whenever possible. That said, when it comes down to pure survival, anyone who says that they wouldn't do the necessary thing to sustain themselves, even if it means to kill an animal, is a big fat hypocrite.
Gayyy
@@Sneeezzyy look at all the fucks I gave for this comment
Shane was thinkung how they would survive, Dale was thinking how they would live again
it is also possible he could've found more people to join him on the journey back to his group making their numbers even higher
Good point.
Love the far cry 5 music in the background 🤣
I dunno man he didn't mean he was "a kid" like a literally child, he just means he's a young guy with not much life experience. It wasn't a legal claim.
Also your point that he didn't listen to Rick wanting to keep peace is a bit unfair, he shot at them anyway because he doesn't know Rick like we do, he doesn't know if they're being genuine or not. Everyone's a potential hostile in this world and standing down because of a promise of peace but then getting killed for it because you didn't keep on your toes is something very possible in this situation
1. Still an appeal to emotion because he’s attempting to spark a specific emotional reaction with the people he’s speaking with, as opposed to relying on reason. He does similar things throughout the episode. Tells Rick “I know you don’t wanna do this” and to “think of the lesson you’re teaching Carl” He tried to get Andrea on his side by appealing to her emotions as well. He told Glenn that everyone was trying to make him scared, when Dale was trying to scare everyone with the idea of moral decay or atrophy. It’s definitely intentional.
2. My first inclination wouldn’t be to shoot a stranger I don’t even have my sights on. Vengeance is for stupid people. Dave and Tony got themselves killed? Best we walk away. Neither side had sights on the other. So no, it’s a totally fair point.
The intro's background music hit me like a van going 133mph on the highway
U forgot to mention Randell actually admitted it before shane snapped his neck.
Yeah, but that’s information gained after the moral debate. Sort unfair to use it. If Dale was right, then people on my side of the issue would be right for the wrong reasons in the same way a broken clock is right twice a day.
@@TheRealCaptainGold thats true man. They were about to let him go before shane captured him. Hey. I have an idea for ur next video u should consider making that people might want to see. Its about the governor. What If the governor didn't kill hershel and decided to drop the sword. If he'd be able to coexist with Rick and his group if he decided to join them I think that would be an interesting video. 👍🏻
Dale was a very moral and good man, but Dale was very much an idealist who could not see the world around him for what it actually was.....a literal hellscape where the dead walked the land tearing what few people remained to pieces.
He went on about how if they killed Randyl, a genuine threat to the safety of everyone there at the farm, then the world they knew would be dead, when it already was dead.
I do believe ethically and morally Dale was right, and that in all actuality debating whether to kill Randyl was a good and right thing to do, for all the reasons listed by the creator of this video.
But when you live in a situation like TWD, where law doesn't exist, and you're surrounded by survivors of a horrible and traumatic event who are all willing to do whatever it takes to survive, you need to do whatever you need to do to keep yourself and your loved ones safe at all costs. At a certain point, going to the absolute extremes is entirely justified, because for all of Dale's arguments, he'd never invite Randyl's group to the farm even if he had Herschel's blessing to do so.
And why?? Because he's smart enough to know that would be a horrible idea, as those people would likely kill everyone there at the farm.
Imagine if Dale in the TV show fulfilled his comic counterpart. The walking dead TV show had the potential to be the greatest piece of television of all time.
What did he do in the comic?
@@emekao502 he had Bobs tainted meat moment
@@jamesalauri460 haha thanks 🙏
i love the Far Cry 5 music in the background lol
Dale got un alived as he fell out with the showrunner.
That episode where they all discuss what to do with the guy almost felt like a scene from 12 angry men
Being that Dale is an old fart & Randal is 20 & just started his life it's understandable that Dale referenced him as a kid 😂
Yeah, but he was like the philosopher of the group. Man should’ve known to be more precise with his wording lol
You deserve more subscribers, content is immaculate!
I remember being so mad when they killed off dale like that. I still am somewhat bitter about it and I don't think he deserved such a lame death
The acting from each actor/actress in season 2, was just superb on many levels! My favorite group of the entire series!
There is no right or wrong in TWD world, everything is so screwed that any decision only prolongs the inevitable
There is always right and wrong. In the walking dead, whats right is not always good.
@@azoniarnl3362 everyone is eventually killed regardless of their decision
I remember watching live and hw derided Season 2 was and annoyed folks were by Dale. I'm glad there's still discussion an reevaluation that adds to the conversations
Loved this video!!!
2:15 is how far I am and I want to stop it there and counter his argument. He says that if they kill Randall it'll change the group forever. Well, the world is changed forever and it isn't for the better, so maybe they too must change and adapt in order to survive.
Dale was old enough to where randall was a "kid" to him
Agreed. He's a kid to dale considering the age difference between them
second and third is my fav seasons, and dale forever my fav characters, loved the questions he raised
Dale was a remnant from a past society.
Shane was right!
He just figured it out, too early.
Shane had a mental break putting everyones lives at risk over his best friends wife hed been with MAX 69 days. He didnt care about the group or their safety, literally all he was worried about was desperately winning his bo back at all cost. Group be damned. People like to leave that little shane tidbit out. Never a bigger simp ever lived.
A better question is if Dale's face can make any other exception then "WTF is wrong with you?"
Season 5 Rick would of just killed Dale
And season seven rick would have just sobbed randomly
Tbh Randal was so stupid. Him telling them about his group of 30 rapists was one of the stupidest things anyone could ever do. Telling them about how he knew Maggie was also stupid asf.
He could’ve told them all of that info, their location, offered to help and a whole host of other common sense rhetoric, that required no substantial level of human intelligence, that would’ve led the group to trust him. All before getting tortured.
He didn’t precisely because he felt a kinship with those people and because he, himself, was not a decent person worthy of trust. I find the arguments positing that he was scared of Rick’s group to simply be lacking. He had no rational reason to have fear considering the Atlanta group saved him, cared for him and didn’t outright kill him. Whereas his group left him for dead. The evidence really points in a specific direction and that direction doesn’t support Dale’s position unfortunately.
One thing I disagree with in this video is that the walkers were on the top of the food chain. All through the series it was proven time and time again that humans were the real threat and the zombies were only brought in to increase tension from time to time.
5:57 No that he didn‘t speak is something thats speaks for him in my opinion, it shows that he has loyalty.
Dale was the bleeding-heart liberal of the troop. His moral, or political opinions, were a
danger to the group during this point. Sorry, Dale, but for the safety, and survival of everyone,
this individual had to die.
At 1:49 Dale is weak. You don't let an enemy live at your gates. Prisoners consume vital resources with no ROI.
I just wouldn't waste a round on him.
Follow-up: When dealing with Alexandria or the prison, the decision would be the same.
Without even watching this vid, no. No he was not. Shane did nothing wrong. I'll watch the vid now but you'll change nothing! NOTHING!
Edit: Okay so you were 100% right. Great vid lol.
Dale's look of disapproval meant another swig of beer in my house game.