Watching Tesla Bjørn channel since 2019 has no Influence on me...bought E-Golf in 2020, bought Model 3 in 2021, wears a Stormberg Jacket, made vacation in Norway this summer😄😄 Greetings from Stauland😉
What about adding a new column to the excel sheet to even out the range % differences between wide and skinny tyres + temp differences? Would be interesting to see I think!
I'm honestly looking forward to see how stuff like charging speed, range and maybe even acceleration is going to behave with other carmakers over the years.
You can already see it with some. Early Leafs are terrible. i3's not so bad. I think a lot of it depends on what it was designed to do in the first place.
Tesla takes a unique approach than other manufacturers, they give you 100% of the performance (charging, acceleration, etc) immediately, with no regard to how it effects the vehicle long term. All their figures are quoted at peak charge, brand new. Other manufactures over engineer other parts and nerf the performance so that it will keep the advertised charging speed / acceleration / etc for longer. It's just the nature of going flat out with everything versus being more traditional 'safe' approach and building buffers into everything.
@@omelvold Thing is thats not smart engineering or helping to move things forward - thats just gaming the system for easy marketing and now those of us who got the early cars are paying for that.
I've got a 2013 P85 and a 2016 Hyundai Ioniq. I also have a house at the Mediterranean, 800km from my home. It takes exactly the same time to get there with both cars, but the battery of the Tesla is three times bigger. The Ioniq has 200'000km on the clock with a high percentage of fast charging, the Tesla only 80'000km with a low percentage of fast charging, yet the Ioniq still performs exactly like new and also suffered much less battery degradation (almost none in fact). I love my P85 and I'll never sell it, but the Ioniq is a much more practical and much more sensible car. It's also better in most ways on long distance trips despite having less range, because it has better seats, smart cruise, auto steer, etc and uses considerably less electricity. However, I would buy a new Tesla in a heartbeat, if they were to make a somewhat sensible car.
I bought my 2013 P85 last month with 76k in Toronto area, it's my first Tesla and an nice upgrade to my 24kwh Leaf. 99% of my trips are local and we have few supercharging stations near my home. The car is not as efficient as my leaf but I can understand that as it's much heavier car. I also notice the charging speed issue but it's not necessary a bad thing in my situation. I usually charge my car while waiting to pick up my kid. While charging, I usually do grocery shopping/eat/refund at the same time, or stop by a Mcdonald to work remotely with my laptop. I always have to adjust the charging range to give me enough time to avoid the idle fee. For long road trip, I still have my old mini van. Given that I paid only 37% of the original cost of the car, this is still a very good deal and useful for day to day. I'd rather to have it to charge slower to protect the battery health. I want to drive my car for at least 10 more years. We picked this over the model 3 because it's roomy interior and also a lot cheaper. Used model 3/Y cost more than new right now and a used Model S is a better buy. I don't feel like pay few thousands over MSRP to buy a used model 3 with 70,000km on it. And autopilot is not that essential for me.
Hi Bjørn, Do you still have millenium falcon? If so could you plan another 1000km trip after the latest upgrade from Tesla that presumably increases the charge speed on the 85 pack
Watching your channel since 2013. Bought 2014 model s. You are a great influencer. Still have it now and have noted the reduced charging speed. Elon took a chapter out of Tim Apples playbook. Onto the Y in September. Many thx.
Bought my P85D used two years ago, so i never missed the faster charging speed. And 30min extra on a 10h drive is not really something i worry about, that might happen once a year. Wouldn't trade my P85D for a newer but smaller car that charges slightly faster, even though it's done 200k km!
Similar situation here and i fully agree. 900 km trip, 3 * 50kW charger: Late breakfast, lunch and afternoon tea, done. Never have to wait. Arrive relaxed and had a safe drive.
@@moestrei not if one's driving on the highway. E. G. When traveling in the summer, I drove >1200km in a day, in about 10 hours, with lots of stops and 1.5yo twins in a 8yo ICE vehicle that costs less than Tesla's battery pack. EVs are not there yet in replacing ICE if one can't have long trips in 10yo cars
@@ionbarari7202 With these conditions (distance /kids) many people would plan it over 2 days. With overnight charging easily done. I find it interesting how many people waste their life watching TV/gaming/social media and then complain about arriving an hour later. EVs are replacing ICE sooner than later as many countries have relevant legislation plus many manufacturers will just stop making ice. Most sold car in Europe in September 2021: Tesla Model 3. For most ICE owners its about getting your head around change. The price will normalize with time, right now its a high demand and little supply issue. I always had cars around $2000-$5000 but bought a Model S P85+ for $40.000 two years ago. Have not regretted a cent.
@@Xanthopteryx Time will tell. I'd say it goes quicker than anybody thinks because of the overall economics and driving pleasure. Also as a big battery on wheels the perfect complement to renewable energy. Im in an area of frequent blackouts and soaring energy prices. But im on off-grid solar for 22 years now: Still on the 1st battery, never had a failure and charging my Tesla (has done 312.000km) it. 30.000km / year incl. 850km trips. Easier, way cheaper, no-brainer. I calculated if all 21million vehicles in my country would be Model Ss doing 15.000km / year power generation would need to be increased by 12%. Doable.
I think that the Millennium Falcon can still make the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. - Harrison Ford.
Bjorn. A car is like a human body, treat it well during its life and as it ages it can still do most of the things it did when it was young, not as often and not as FAST.
Thank you for making this test again in order to raise awareness of how much Tesla limited the usability of those cars! Really appreciate. I am an owner of one of such cars (2014 P85), and it is a pain to actually arrive at the destination usually 1 (sometimes even 2 hours) later than what you would expect from the initial planning, for longer journeys. And this many times with a 3-year-old child, where every 10-20min extra time in each charging station seems an eternity after some hours of driving. It is not feasible to stop every hour for charging (in order to not charge more than 50%), also not feasible to stay at a charger for 1h or more in order to have proper range, but many are stuck with this situation. I was not aware of this when purchasing the car (second hand, not many knew about this yet), so now I am stuck with this situation, good luck in re-selling the car now when most of the community knows just how slow those models can be. I just hope Tesla would do something about it apart from selling a 20k€-25k€ battery replacement. I am aware that it can not get to the same charging speed (battery is 7y old, already passed 200.000km mark) but 30%-35% slower charging is ridiculous!
Hmmm....my MS, which is EXACTLY same age (November 2013 an 260'000km by now on original battery pack), is still running at very good efficiency (average som 200Wh/km). Do you have a tire problem? However, let's not talk about charging speed....
@@davidshipp623 Degradation was never a problem. I recently had it checked out and it still has almost 90% of its capacity despite almost 50% SuC ratio and many high speed runs on the German Autobahn as well as many trips in the cold such as a trip to the north cape at -20°C.
@@heinzruffieux5817 That’s cool, I’m only at 136,000KM in my 2016 P90DL and am running at between 1 and 2% degradation but was slightly worried it might jump at 160,000 upwards. Nice to know this might not be the case!
@@davidshipp623 90s to my best knowledge got a slightly different battery technology. However, they as well are expected to loose most of the capacity at the beginning and then stabilize. But 1-2% seems VERY low for 136kkm Are you sure about? Did you have it analyze? The on board system may trick you out, if you never run it to 0% to "calibrate" the BMS.
You are absolutely right Bjorn. The same happens to me. Tesla tries to avoid Battery warranty issues by reducing charge speed in order to have less impact on the battery. This is most likely SW induced. Started in 2019 with my car. And I have more than 95% AC charging. This makes me walk away from tesla, The car isn't really usable on long range like this. Degredation is very small, but reduction in charge speed is crazy. In my car it's even more (max 62 KW with preconditioned Battery). Tesla is not helpful at all....
I absolutely love my P85DL+ in every way, it's fast, huge storage, best safety, amazing handling, the best seats I been in and much more, but it's the charging speed which annoys me. Good thing to have the supercharger network, the other are just rubbish to use, not working, 50kW most of them, queue, 1000 different apps and just too complicated then it should be. But I'll rather recommend someone the TM3 performance instead, for time being.
And that is one of the reasons why I traded my P85 a month ago in to a 2021 Model 3. The charging speeds with my P85 was just getting sad compared to when I got the car at the start :/
@@InternetDude Because the same will happen with any car manufacturer. It has nothing do do with manufacturers it is about battery limitations... If they dont do this something else will happen and the same people will complain again, why it wasnt sorted out the other way around.
@@bjornnyland yes, not the same specific battery issue. But, maybe something else fail with new tech, and resulting experience is same as long as tesla approach is the same.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 The new 4680 batteries will be million mile batteries because the warranty on the Tesla Semi truck will be for a million miles! These were very early models.
Thailand announce the new plan to lower the EV import tax, so Tesla or many non-Chinese EVs are more affordable in Thailand. But still no plans to stop the ban of importing second-hand cars (EV included) that is more affordable than the brand-new EVs.
I have followed your channel since you bought Millenium Falcon. You inspired me to buy our Model 2014 S85 (after finding a Model 3 too cramped and over-sprung for grown-ups). Degradation at 80k mles is only 7% but charging speeds are woeful, as we sit for over an hour and watch 3 Model 3's come and go. Best we've seen was 83kw for just a few minutes but by the time we get to 90% it's 21kw - pathetic Tesla. But what can we do? Nothing.
Same problem with my S85 (2015) since more than 2 years. Last Software update was in January (10 month ago). Tesla is too big to see the people any more, they just want to sell new cars.
@@InternetDude duh how many car makers other than tesla even update their older cars at all? Just upgrading your navigation system with VW costs you like 1k these days.. It's insane. And one of the reasons the older Model S didn't see upgrades is likely that they have been remodeling the production thus they likely didn't work too much on the software when doing that, but idk.
@@LunnarisLP "what you pay, what you get" is norm with all car manufacturer.... for tesla, "pay so more, get not that much more". I think all costs including SW updates is included and promised in price tag, its not a cheap car buy the way to compare against.
Didn't know they nurfed charging when it gets older! And I was afraid they'd just randomly cut off super charging if they felt like it like in america. ARGH, I hate they got so much control over something I bought and OWN. Is this a problem with new models as well?
Same ridiculousness in BC with BC Hydro. They are hyping how they are going to double the amount of public Chargers in BC. No mention of speed, but almost certainly only 50kW since that is all they have currently installed...
It makes economic sense to slow charging or they’ll have to pay for new batteries. After the 8 year warranty is up maybe they’ll allow faster charging thereby selling more replacement batteries?
No. Its not this reason. TB car is already out of warranty. Its 8 years or 160k kms. The car have probably driven more than 160k without nerf. Doesnt make sense to many 85. Cant be the reason.
Correct. Millennium Falcon has 8 year unlimited km battery and drivetrain warranty. What Balaji is talking about is Model 3 warranty which is completely different.
@@bjornnyland yes, as well for TMS and TMX, what i learnt is when tesla changed the warranty terms from unlimited to 240k kms, it immediatly applies for all year make. I think at first they put 160k limit and then changed to 260k. Whatever it maybe, it is not good to promise and sell a car with unlimited terms and suddenly broke the promise and put a km limit.
At a guess I’d say like Bjorn, you’re one who follows your conditioning rather than your bodies signals, just a guess ! Numerous studies have shown that vegetarians and vegans are far healthier than the average person with less disease and maladies.
If the nerf is done to protect the battery then I don’t mind. I just put in a bid for a 2014 p85 with refurbished battery and all the bells and whistles. We won’t be making that kind of trips at all. Maybe 400-500 km a couple of times a year.
I would assume it is a design problem that caused them to lower the charging speed in order to keep them safe. Most likely that won't happen to the newer cars now. It is sad for the owners but the cars back then was basically glorified betas. I agree on the compensation though, there wasn't that many sold off these so give them 10.000 euros or a large discount on a new tesla.
@@mikaeloverby They could easily compensate the nerfed ones with 90kWh packs or with the existing 350V 85KWh pack. I have the feeling they dont care anymore about the early adopters.
If I look at positive side , a 6-7 years old EV today is a huge time considering technologie development . So having that car still doing same or little more time than new ones is a good result especially in many cases people don’t drive 1000km every week. For me 30min or 1hour drive more on a total of 10-11hours drive is acceptable for such an « old » car
Most Model S 85 owners don't drive 1000km every week, it's true, but when they do, *unlike Bjorn* they don't: * stop every 100km or less * record/edit videos while waiting * don't use a passport * use ScanMyTesla * arrive with less than 1% SoC * ignore Tesla navigation charging time and SoC at arrival estimates * drive alone If Bjørn tried it as most people doing 1000km in these cars, traveling with their families, he would probably * drive at least 2hrs in a row, * tried his best to keep the family entertained and their minds away from the charging speed * drive within speed limits (+/- VAT) * kept everybody reassured that the SoC is enough to arrive to the destination (despite "drive below ..." warnings on the screen) Not only the 2019.16.1 update tanked the charging speed but it also messed up the SoC estimates. It would be interesting a challenge between different cars where the onboard gom/estimates would be followed religiously to compare how good they are. If you drive one of these older Tesla's, you must know the car and when to start making your own estimates. It makes it usable. Otherwise, they're not much more than amazing XXL size city cars.
I raise this point every time someone mentions X car with X hundred mile range needs even more range. But then if you don't need such a high range, why get a Tesla?
@@benholroyd5221 most time you don’t need a Tesla …. But You want a Tesla :) In my case my model 3 is my only car so I needed a car that can do all type of trip and situations but for many friends that look for a second car ad EV I recommend them « smaller&cheaper » cars with lower range .
I don't understand why so many car manufactories are using frameless windows nowadays. The older the car gets, the more issues you get with sealing / wind noice, freezing and stuck windows during winter etc.
@@buddy1155 Well Mercedes from the 1980s were probably exceptions from the rule. Built like a tank! ;-) I have experience with several other makes and models, and they all have issues.
@@xiphias256 I agree that the 1980's Mercedes are probably the most durable cars build. And I agree that problems you summed up are indeed common at several cars. The problem is always bad design, there is nothing inherent wrong with frameless windows. We only disagree on the fact that it should be dropped or should be improved. If we dropped all technology that wasn't perfect on first try we would still be living in caves.
Is Toyota going to compensate that phone app for Proace EV does not exist? Although it was showed in the brochure and claimed ‘ 'coming soon’ in the owners manual.
My question is, is this because there is an increment on internal resistance with the aging?, If not, my perception of Tesla will of course be changing. So, if it is because aging let's see LiFePO4 behaviour next upcoming years, very interesting. Thanks Björn
Solve an issue, another issue shows up, thats reality of new technology, however, the way tesla handled the 85 battery issue will as well similar for all new tesla products, thats a serious trust issue on the manufacturer-customer relstionship
That is the question. But they surely must have done a cost-benefit analysis with fancy graphs and everything, and conclude that they are coming out worse if old batteries are to rapidly lose capacity (with higher charging speed) vs. the other. It's hard to make a distinction between how much of it is based on the physical reality of batteries vs. PR, hence the trust issue. So it goes back to the basic message that Mr. Musk was telling from the start, that his mission is to accelerate sustainability. I'm nobody, but I'd say it's important to value the good intention, even when some realities creep in the picture and erode that trust. It's his word, basically. How much of this trust would be there if the corporation didn't have him, though...
@@szaboaz i have colleagues with other EV car, dont remember manufacturer. They as well get battery issues, but got battery packs upgraded to different model pack. Ideally, all 85 pack should have received a recall, or proper fix, not a cheap bandaid fix by nerfing charging. The fancy cost-beneift analysis that you are talking is irelevant for a customer point of view, my car is cripled, bottomline is trust and promise is lost.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 yep. They've already lost one new purchase from me so far. I have another car coming up for replacement and am not considering Tesla for this one either since this remains unresolved.
I found it nice to see the old binnacle screen, reminded me of my old 2014 MS, which I occasionally miss. I used to like to moment by moment power usage.
Hej Björn, Har tittat på dig i många år. Men nu först tänker jag att köpa en model X. Jag har en fråga om jag köper en utan dragkrok, finns det någon du känner till som kan eftermontera en dragkrok på den bil jag köper? Mvh Tony, Sverige
But what is your normal long distance consumption, because here in the Netherlands my 85 from 2014 does 220 for 120 km/h. Nevertheless, the charging speed is similar and not Tesla worthy.
There is always a much higher consumption right after supercharging for about 15 km on highway is my experience and then it falls to about 220-230 this time of year with winter tires.
Bjørn, I totally agree with you. As an early adopter with a Model S still in use Tesla made me a tester for their car. The actual charging speed is so slow, that I decided to sell the car. There is no compensation from Tesla, so the new car won’t be a Tesla.
If you did not realize that you might be an early adopter when buying an early sample of the first mass produced car from a new car manufacturer, this might be on you. A car that was revolutionary on so many levels that the Citroen DS seems like a boring addition to the car world. OBVIOUSLY you would be a tester. This was all new technology, as in not rivaled by anyone ever. Additionally, this was a US company in Silicon Valley. Honestly I find the hint that you feel entitled to compensation ridiculous. With that said, I salute you for buying an early sample. Your sacrifice has, is, and will actually change the world for the better.
It would be so interesting to get MF to Autoteile Zimmermann (a very good Tesla specialised Workshop in southern Germany with own YT channel) to see what's the condition.
The battery nerf? That's because a small number of those old 85kW Packs started to burn, they found out it's because the chemistry can't handle the fairly optimistic charging speed with high cycle counts. That's why they reduced it with a firmware update. At least that's the story I know, not 100% sure.
Sounds plausible that a 5 year old battery pack would be speed capped. Tesla has always been pessimistic about superchargers. One solution is probably to “rotate the tyres” to even out the wear, to “rotate” the battery modules in the pack after 5 years, replacing cells in the modules that are unbalanced to refurbish the battery pack. However, you would also need parts that aren’t easy to obtain, working or new/refurb battery modules with refurbished, or new cells of a different chemistry/age that is modified to work with the same BMS parameters. It’s not like swapping the tyres, it’s swapping the “fuel tank”. And possibly the motors and axles. And the charging circuit / side panel for CCS charger support. Etc. extensive modifications, outside of warranty or safety. However, the problem is that failed super-charging, dropping back to 50kw or lower isn’t obvious to the driver unless they can access the BMS directly to look at the pack diagnostics which shows thermals and voltage levels that might have weak cells in a module, which brings down the whole module. And it’s not a good idea to allow that, because then people would want (and probably now armed with some justification) to replace the packs under warranty. Maybe there’s a way to rebalance the pack or assay the “problematic cells” that are reducing the DC float to a “safe” current to balance the aging cells more gradually. I have seen that some workshops have pulled the older packs apart to replace/repair the modules that have excess heat, by rebalancing and watching with thermal cameras for cells that heat up and refurbishing the module over time, sic. But it’s not something you could do with an insured/warranty car. Not yet anyway.
@@Toliman. so many "could be", "may be", this and that reasoning by experts and 3rd party workshops. but no proper communication from tesla to owners. I am not a lawyer, but, i can feel that this is not legally correct, cheating the customer.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 the problem is that you're looking at chemistry reactions that occur when you charge, and discharge. The Battery in an EV, is not a homogenous "ocean" or single object, but a population of individual cells in a "city". There is no communication from Tesla, because there's no way to actually know if the battery pack is "bad" or "good" unless it has an observed problem. And that fault may not show up unless someone spends dozens of hours to pull the battery apart and check rigorously, or there's a catastrophic event, which also may not show up. If Tesla just sent out information to owners that they could pay to swap their old packs with 2022 Model S LFP and an upgrade for BMS, EPU/UI upgrades and charging, as an option... this would solve the wishy-washy silence from Tesla where they won't even talk about their problems, because it opens up very public liability for their past mistakes. The silence does create a problem, as it has also led to opportunities, i.e. Rich Rebuilds wouldn't be the powerhouse he is, without salvaging and savaging Tesla mercilessly. He's right to be aggrieved, but the argument that it should be up to Tesla, is supposing that Tesla can fix their own cars. Which sounds ridiculous, but it probably has a kernel of truth, they may not be able to fix their own cars, or offer upgrades without getting into legal problems of liability or misrepresentation, because some people will miss out if they offer an upgrade path. Much the same as you can't know if there's a potential criminal in an entire Country or City unless there's some indication, or, you just lock the entire city down to find a potential problem ... which is a terrible method that inverts safety for anxiety. And just like a city, when there's a problem, you don't empty the entire country and replace the people and homes. You just find the problem and fix it when you find the problem. The issue is that Tesla, being first in a lot of ways, can't pioneer laws or Customer Service. It's always been obnoxiously mediocre with CS and Repair, to a critical point where it has been a major weakness for their early adopters left with broken cars for months or years in some cases. This has improved, but it's a problem that they should be legally forced to face, especially the unacknowledged defects that they won't list, because it would slow down production lines of new cars, to focus on meeting obligations or expectations of service. The problem isn't the black and white "replace", it's the grey of "meets expected performance", because, there is no agreement or condition to benchmark what the battery should be like at the end of the warranty period. or beyond the warranty period in the case of some of the P85Ds and P90 series, and older. There is no customer law or lemon law that guarantors or protects consumers with a 10 year old car needing replacement or repair. The cardinal idea is that the Battery just exists, so it should work as if it were a 9v battery that you just slide in and out. And, for insurance, they would prefer to have the battery as a single unit in the event of lease terms, collision or defect, recall or repairs. If the Car Manufacturer's were forced to replace cell packs, by insurance concern or safety concern, we would be having a vastly different level of discussion. Instead, the problem exists where the degradation of one, many, all or any cell out of the Possible Billions inside Powerwalls or Tesla's is a factor that cannot be predicted, and it can't be insured or detected in advance either. The odds are fantastic, but it only takes that one fatigued cell or manufacturing defect to destroy a car, or a power station, or a garage, etc. If you treat the battery as if it's a 9V "single unit", then it seems insane not to replace it and deal with the refurbishment market. And, some people do deal with pack swaps when there's problems. Instead, just like a city, you can have trouble monitoring the behavior of thousands of people, especially if you only have 3 or 4 sensors, the "police" of that city. If there's thousands of small individual cells, and one AA sized cell (roughly) out of 1000 have a minor defect, or they shift or move over time due to environment or vibration, or there's an imbalance of charge potential, there's a safety system that has to kick in to prevent the module and also notify the car "somehow" that there's going to be a loss in capacity. How or when this happens, is not public, and that algorithm could change, and apparently has in the past decade. Conversely, Tesla isn't going to check this across a fleet of millions of cars unless they have to perform an incredibly detailed assay of their global fleet, or they have a method to survey and self-diagnose the modules. There are alternatives, but if you are in the position of having a liability like an aged battery pack on an aged car, it's going to be a problem that Tesla or the 3rd party markets are going to solve, with or without Tesla.
I run a Model S P85 from 2015 125,000 UK miles, I remember the update that nerfed the charging also my car toasted the battery (water leak over 3 years finally battery went futt) Tesla replaced the battery for free as car was at 75,000 miles it went quicker but charged slower so no big deal.......still love this car.....waiting......waiting........waiting for my Roadster.
the cars estimation of 15min to 50% was correct, maybe 1min off or so. just check your time. I always said, the KW is fairly lower, but the time is the same. Or maybe 3-5min off compared to before. I think they changed the KW value, what it means on the old cars. I know how long I had from 10% to 70% on old versions. If I meassure the time now, its like 4min more then before. but the KW is way lower...
No. Model 3 not at all yet. At some point it has to come but people who made 300.000km with their Model 3 still report normal behaviour across the board. The 75, 90 and 100kWh packs had a downgrade in charging speed but Tesla completely revoked it months ago. They all charge like new again afaik
The new Model S Plaid has 255 in the front and 285 in the rear. Massive tires! Summer tires with the temps between 1C and 13C?? Pirelli says their P Zero summer tires can crack if the temp goes below 7.2 C.
This is really frustrating, they even leave battery cooling running on 85packs when you leave them with SOC over 78% which makes it impossible to prepare for larger trips when having no Wallbox. Did you actually speak to Tesla about the nerfed speed? If they are so scared abt. those 85packs why they dont offer at least a discounted upgrade to 90 packs or smth?!?! Someone with some influence needs to speak up to Tesla abt this, as you said: leaves no good feeling for early supporters
Great video - love the commentary and view of EV life in N EU. But… not sure your criticisms of the Model S are valid. Your tests are great; but I don’t believe that’s the normal use case. I suspect most people will charge a) overnight; b) while I’m at work. And batteries - at least their current tech - do degrade. 315 000 is a LOT of driving and charging.
Hi Bjørn, Last week i was on a road trip from Drammen to Stockholm and notice my model s 75d 2018 recive peak speed of 125kw (21-34%) and above 100kw (11-42%) do my car charge that slow in a few years?
I switched tires from Pirelli to Michelin and got between 30-40wh/km higher consumption on average. Significantly more in higher speeds and rain. Will be going back to Pirelli.
@@Frygisk Have done it several times, but it makes no difference. Michelin Pilot Sport 4 has a different rubber compound, which makes them more sticky and thus has a worse rolling resistance. But on the plus side, they get an incredibly good grip on dry asphalt. With my Pirelli P Zero I was able to get down to just over 140Wh/km on 70-80km/h roads. Now I hardly get below 200Wh/km on the same roads.
I have the same Tesla with 170k. Two months ago battery was replaced within the warranty, but charging speed was not changed. Looks like it’s the limitation is not in the battery, but in the car itself. I think with older software release it will charge faster.
All 85Kwh batteries of this chemistry are limited. You just got a refurbished battery of the same type, it will slow charge. The limitation is not the car. As soon as you install a 90Kwh battery in there (or maybe a completely unexistent new 85Kwh one, but no longer produced) the charging limit is no longer there.
Considering how old the car is that is actually really impreossive. And the car is actually not 6 but 8 years old if it's a 2013 Model S, isn't it? (notes in the sheet)
@@santerixdxd Well I was stupid and looked at the upper result when making my comment :D To my defense, I was semi distracted with work while watching the video. It indeed does say 8 year old car and I guess the result isn't as impressive as the one achieved 2019, but given the cold temperature it's still decent I guess.
So if I have a trailer, Do I just make the trailer stick out that way A car can still use the front charger? Bjorn those pigs are so intelligent, vegan alternatives can be good too. I love your vids and humor.
Hmm, interesting. People worry about degradation, but it seems with Teslas the bigger worry is the nerf in charging speeds. Which is good news in a way (still great usable range), but of course for those that do drive long distance it is bad news.
Watching these videos kinda make me doubt my purchase on a tm3 Lr 🥺 got delivery some time in desember though, still some time to decide 🤷 great video though, by the way the right lane in the start of the video are primarily for speed locked vehicles, heavy vehicles or vehicles that is turning off the highway, so correct placement would be middle lane
I'm looking forward to an LFP model 3 with maybe 300 mile range in the future. Long term will have less degradation and probably won't be nerfed due to less fire risk.
164K miles... You got to imagine there are Model 3s with more miles then that on a batt pack... also will be interesting to see LFP with high mileage and how it does.
@@christian_eklund get the pumps checked out, there's 4 of them and if even one of them silently fails you might end up with bad thermals! A few days ago I noticed that the stall i was charging at didn't climb above 54kW with the Type2 connector, so I tried the same stall with the CCS adapter and IT charged like expected. I suspect that the old connectors might be a bit worn out
Hi, what is the battery degradation with this car, after the 265000 km and what 7 years? It would be very interesting to compare this car to another P85 from 2013 or 14 with less milage to compare the cyclical vs calendar degradation of the batteries.
One question that arises: If you have an old S but then install a brand new battery: will you then also either directly or reasonably quickly and gradually also get nerfed?
@@moestrei actually the value of Old S's is up. the truth is, most people don't go on long trips everyday, they drive around town and rarely supercharge. a new battery would cost about 14K, plus, usd. I am guessing that pre AP P85 would be about $25,000 in the US, although Bjorn's is in exceptionally good shape, maybe a little m ore
I think it's not /just/ the charging speed. How much does the 17% increase in Wh/km have on the number of charging stops? My guess it increases the number of charges required! So not only is the P85 MF suffering from slow charging, it needs to carry out an extra charge too! What I'm thinking is that it's not just the one variable (slow charging) which slowed the 1000k to 11h50. As a side-note, it would be interesting to see the "number of charges" and/or "energy used" in this sheeiiit too!
Comparing a 100k car vs a 30k car wasn't a fair comparison then and isn't one now... Unless you meant to compare degradation and change in charging speed for the new vs the old car.
tbh i dont think thats that big of a drawback, in our gas car we drive to switzerland in like 10-11hours and thats around 930km, the stops dont matter, theres always someone who has to pee or theres a moment when we need to have lunch or breakfast
If Tesla nerfed the 85Kwh battery pack there must be a safety reason involved. I bet fire risk/cell failure more likely on the pack with fast charging/high currents with aging . Better charge slower than burning the car...
Better to recall and fix it instead of crippling a long range cars that are meant and designed and bought for road trips. Thats the point. They are not cheap cars to be putting a bandaid.
Sounds like a warranty replacement should be done for such a serious defect, not a software patch top hide the problem. Horrifically bad precedent that they're getting away with this.
Watching Tesla Bjørn channel since 2019 has no Influence on me...bought E-Golf in 2020, bought Model 3 in 2021, wears a Stormberg Jacket, made vacation in Norway this summer😄😄
Greetings from Stauland😉
Ha, I bought a P85 and have a model Y on order.. he has had not influence on me at all :)
Haha, no he hasn’t influenced any of us, buying my first Model S in 2014 after binge watching was purely coincidental.
I can't stop eating Thai food.
I keep telling my wife I am “on the move” and “hammering”
bought my MX 90D in 2016 after watching countless Bjorn's videos. Still, no influence on me 😅
Left Norway to go to Sweden for a double French Hotdog. Love it!!
Unknown in France 😀
I can relate.
What about adding a new column to the excel sheet to even out the range % differences between wide and skinny tyres + temp differences? Would be interesting to see I think!
Didn't expect to see You here! 😁
lmao, go catch some more cheaters for vids
@@popefrancis9756 rude :(
eyyy. I know you.
@@SniperSnake50BMG No I meant a stat modifier based on conditions recorded. Just to even out the times a bit.
I'm honestly looking forward to see how stuff like charging speed, range and maybe even acceleration is going to behave with other carmakers over the years.
You can already see it with some. Early Leafs are terrible. i3's not so bad. I think a lot of it depends on what it was designed to do in the first place.
Tesla takes a unique approach than other manufacturers, they give you 100% of the performance (charging, acceleration, etc) immediately, with no regard to how it effects the vehicle long term. All their figures are quoted at peak charge, brand new. Other manufactures over engineer other parts and nerf the performance so that it will keep the advertised charging speed / acceleration / etc for longer. It's just the nature of going flat out with everything versus being more traditional 'safe' approach and building buffers into everything.
@@omelvold Thing is thats not smart engineering or helping to move things forward - thats just gaming the system for easy marketing and now those of us who got the early cars are paying for that.
I've got a 2013 P85 and a 2016 Hyundai Ioniq. I also have a house at the Mediterranean, 800km from my home. It takes exactly the same time to get there with both cars, but the battery of the Tesla is three times bigger. The Ioniq has 200'000km on the clock with a high percentage of fast charging, the Tesla only 80'000km with a low percentage of fast charging, yet the Ioniq still performs exactly like new and also suffered much less battery degradation (almost none in fact). I love my P85 and I'll never sell it, but the Ioniq is a much more practical and much more sensible car. It's also better in most ways on long distance trips despite having less range, because it has better seats, smart cruise, auto steer, etc and uses considerably less electricity. However, I would buy a new Tesla in a heartbeat, if they were to make a somewhat sensible car.
I bought my 2013 P85 last month with 76k in Toronto area, it's my first Tesla and an nice upgrade to my 24kwh Leaf. 99% of my trips are local and we have few supercharging stations near my home. The car is not as efficient as my leaf but I can understand that as it's much heavier car. I also notice the charging speed issue but it's not necessary a bad thing in my situation. I usually charge my car while waiting to pick up my kid. While charging, I usually do grocery shopping/eat/refund at the same time, or stop by a Mcdonald to work remotely with my laptop. I always have to adjust the charging range to give me enough time to avoid the idle fee. For long road trip, I still have my old mini van. Given that I paid only 37% of the original cost of the car, this is still a very good deal and useful for day to day. I'd rather to have it to charge slower to protect the battery health. I want to drive my car for at least 10 more years. We picked this over the model 3 because it's roomy interior and also a lot cheaper. Used model 3/Y cost more than new right now and a used Model S is a better buy. I don't feel like pay few thousands over MSRP to buy a used model 3 with 70,000km on it. And autopilot is not that essential for me.
Are you still driving it? How’s the battery doing?
Hi Bjørn,
Do you still have millenium falcon? If so could you plan another 1000km trip after the latest upgrade from Tesla that presumably increases the charge speed on the 85 pack
Watching your channel since 2013. Bought 2014 model s. You are a great influencer. Still have it now and have noted the reduced charging speed. Elon took a chapter out of Tim Apples playbook. Onto the Y in September. Many thx.
Bought my P85D used two years ago, so i never missed the faster charging speed. And 30min extra on a 10h drive is not really something i worry about, that might happen once a year.
Wouldn't trade my P85D for a newer but smaller car that charges slightly faster, even though it's done 200k km!
Similar situation here and i fully agree. 900 km trip, 3 * 50kW charger: Late breakfast, lunch and afternoon tea, done. Never have to wait. Arrive relaxed and had a safe drive.
@@moestrei not if one's driving on the highway. E. G. When traveling in the summer, I drove >1200km in a day, in about 10 hours, with lots of stops and 1.5yo twins in a 8yo ICE vehicle that costs less than Tesla's battery pack.
EVs are not there yet in replacing ICE if one can't have long trips in 10yo cars
@@ionbarari7202 With these conditions (distance /kids) many people would plan it over 2 days. With overnight charging easily done. I find it interesting how many people waste their life watching TV/gaming/social media and then complain about arriving an hour later. EVs are replacing ICE sooner than later as many countries have relevant legislation plus many manufacturers will just stop making ice. Most sold car in Europe in September 2021: Tesla Model 3. For most ICE owners its about getting your head around change. The price will normalize with time, right now its a high demand and little supply issue. I always had cars around $2000-$5000 but bought a Model S P85+ for $40.000 two years ago. Have not regretted a cent.
@@Xanthopteryx Time will tell. I'd say it goes quicker than anybody thinks because of the overall economics and driving pleasure. Also as a big battery on wheels the perfect complement to renewable energy. Im in an area of frequent blackouts and soaring energy prices. But im on off-grid solar for 22 years now: Still on the 1st battery, never had a failure and charging my Tesla (has done 312.000km) it. 30.000km / year incl. 850km trips. Easier, way cheaper, no-brainer. I calculated if all 21million vehicles in my country would be Model Ss doing 15.000km / year power generation would need to be increased by 12%. Doable.
Thank you for making this film, we appreciate it very much! This is a good statement for old tesla owners
Agreed, as an "old Tesla driver" !
I think that the Millennium Falcon can still make the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. - Harrison Ford.
Bjorn. A car is like a human body, treat it well during its life and as it ages it can still do most of the things it did when it was young, not as often and not as FAST.
It has nothing to do with that.
@@bjornnyland Oh I thought it was. When anything ages you have to treat it more carefully !
Thank you for making this test again in order to raise awareness of how much Tesla limited the usability of those cars!
Really appreciate.
I am an owner of one of such cars (2014 P85), and it is a pain to actually arrive at the destination usually 1 (sometimes even 2 hours) later than what you would expect from the initial planning, for longer journeys. And this many times with a 3-year-old child, where every 10-20min extra time in each charging station seems an eternity after some hours of driving.
It is not feasible to stop every hour for charging (in order to not charge more than 50%), also not feasible to stay at a charger for 1h or more in order to have proper range, but many are stuck with this situation.
I was not aware of this when purchasing the car (second hand, not many knew about this yet), so now I am stuck with this situation, good luck in re-selling the car now when most of the community knows just how slow those models can be.
I just hope Tesla would do something about it apart from selling a 20k€-25k€ battery replacement.
I am aware that it can not get to the same charging speed (battery is 7y old, already passed 200.000km mark) but 30%-35% slower charging is ridiculous!
See, that's the problem I have with electric cars. The newer Teslas Will probably behave like yours down the line
Hmmm....my MS, which is EXACTLY same age (November 2013 an 260'000km by now on original battery pack), is still running at very good efficiency (average som 200Wh/km). Do you have a tire problem? However, let's not talk about charging speed....
Nice, what has been the degradation over that time?
@@davidshipp623 Degradation was never a problem. I recently had it checked out and it still has almost 90% of its capacity despite almost 50% SuC ratio and many high speed runs on the German Autobahn as well as many trips in the cold such as a trip to the north cape at -20°C.
@@heinzruffieux5817 That’s cool, I’m only at 136,000KM in my 2016 P90DL and am running at between 1 and 2% degradation but was slightly worried it might jump at 160,000 upwards. Nice to know this might not be the case!
@@davidshipp623 90s to my best knowledge got a slightly different battery technology. However, they as well are expected to loose most of the capacity at the beginning and then stabilize. But 1-2% seems VERY low for 136kkm Are you sure about? Did you have it analyze? The on board system may trick you out, if you never run it to 0% to "calibrate" the BMS.
I think he did say that he had less efficient tires on or something
You are absolutely right Bjorn. The same happens to me. Tesla tries to avoid Battery warranty issues by reducing charge speed in order to have less impact on the battery. This is most likely SW induced. Started in 2019 with my car. And I have more than 95% AC charging. This makes me walk away from tesla, The car isn't really usable on long range like this. Degredation is very small, but reduction in charge speed is crazy. In my car it's even more (max 62 KW with preconditioned Battery). Tesla is not helpful at all....
Same here!
After 200+ miles ... I'd be grateful I still can drive this car.
I absolutely love my P85DL+ in every way, it's fast, huge storage, best safety, amazing handling, the best seats I been in and much more, but it's the charging speed which annoys me. Good thing to have the supercharger network, the other are just rubbish to use, not working, 50kW most of them, queue, 1000 different apps and just too complicated then it should be. But I'll rather recommend someone the TM3 performance instead, for time being.
And that is one of the reasons why I traded my P85 a month ago in to a 2021 Model 3.
The charging speeds with my P85 was just getting sad compared to when I got the car at the start :/
Be prepared to make a trade in another 5 years. It will be same same but different.
Nope, it will most likely not happen with Model 3.
@@InternetDude Because the same will happen with any car manufacturer. It has nothing do do with manufacturers it is about battery limitations... If they dont do this something else will happen and the same people will complain again, why it wasnt sorted out the other way around.
@@bjornnyland yes, not the same specific battery issue. But, maybe something else fail with new tech, and resulting experience is same as long as tesla approach is the same.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 The new 4680 batteries will be million mile batteries because the warranty on the Tesla Semi truck will be for a million miles! These were very early models.
I was thinking about a used MX. Now I'd think twice about it. Thanks for the heads up.
Thailand announce the new plan to lower the EV import tax, so Tesla or many non-Chinese EVs are more affordable in Thailand. But still no plans to stop the ban of importing second-hand cars (EV included) that is more affordable than the brand-new EVs.
I have followed your channel since you bought Millenium Falcon. You inspired me to buy our Model 2014 S85 (after finding a Model 3 too cramped and over-sprung for grown-ups). Degradation at 80k mles is only 7% but charging speeds are woeful, as we sit for over an hour and watch 3 Model 3's come and go. Best we've seen was 83kw for just a few minutes but by the time we get to 90% it's 21kw - pathetic Tesla. But what can we do? Nothing.
Oh my Lord 😢😢😢 I had no idea Tesla did this to older gens. Not bad compared to other EVs charging at 50-80kw but with a much smaller batt it's fine.
Could do an update for the XC40 with the latest 1.7 firmware and range optimizer enabled? The consumption is way off for it in your datasheet :)
Same problem with my S85 (2015) since more than 2 years. Last Software update was in January (10 month ago). Tesla is too big to see the people any more, they just want to sell new cars.
Not true. There're more recent sw updates. Check with your Service Center.
@@InternetDude duh how many car makers other than tesla even update their older cars at all? Just upgrading your navigation system with VW costs you like 1k these days.. It's insane. And one of the reasons the older Model S didn't see upgrades is likely that they have been remodeling the production thus they likely didn't work too much on the software when doing that, but idk.
@@LunnarisLP "what you pay, what you get" is norm with all car manufacturer.... for tesla, "pay so more, get not that much more". I think all costs including SW updates is included and promised in price tag, its not a cheap car buy the way to compare against.
Can't wait for the 1000 km challenge once you get the Tesla Semi :D
Didn't know they nurfed charging when it gets older! And I was afraid they'd just randomly cut off super charging if they felt like it like in america. ARGH, I hate they got so much control over something I bought and OWN. Is this a problem with new models as well?
Hi Bjorn my m s is a 70d it’s charging curve is similar to your p85 but i still live it
Mine's also a 70. It's worse than this unfortunately. I also live with it, but any trip which requires more than 1 charging stop becomes a nightmare
50kW is state of the art ! This is what Hydro Quebec install here in 2021 ;-)
Same ridiculousness in BC with BC Hydro. They are hyping how they are going to double the amount of public Chargers in BC. No mention of speed, but almost certainly only 50kW since that is all they have currently installed...
It makes economic sense to slow charging or they’ll have to pay for new batteries. After the 8 year warranty is up maybe they’ll allow faster charging thereby selling more replacement batteries?
No. Its not this reason. TB car is already out of warranty. Its 8 years or 160k kms. The car have probably driven more than 160k without nerf. Doesnt make sense to many 85. Cant be the reason.
Correct. Millennium Falcon has 8 year unlimited km battery and drivetrain warranty. What Balaji is talking about is Model 3 warranty which is completely different.
@@bjornnyland yes, as well for TMS and TMX, what i learnt is when tesla changed the warranty terms from unlimited to 240k kms, it immediatly applies for all year make. I think at first they put 160k limit and then changed to 260k. Whatever it maybe, it is not good to promise and sell a car with unlimited terms and suddenly broke the promise and put a km limit.
Great video as always, Bjørn!
Is slowing done to prolong battery life, avoid fires and protect Tesla image ? I think that they tought well at this before doing it.
So old battery charge slower?
"No vegan shit, Greta's going to be so mad: How dare you?!" -- Highlight of the video for me!
At a guess I’d say like Bjorn, you’re one who follows your conditioning rather than your bodies signals, just a guess ! Numerous studies have shown that vegetarians and vegans are far healthier than the average person with less disease and maladies.
She flies all over the world, her carbon footprint is a million times worse than my lazy ass!
Does this mean that used EVs (Tesla's) will soon drop price dramatically?
That window is the OG coldgate 😂
If the nerf is done to protect the battery then I don’t mind. I just put in a bid for a 2014 p85 with refurbished battery and all the bells and whistles. We won’t be making that kind of trips at all. Maybe 400-500 km a couple of times a year.
I would assume it is a design problem that caused them to lower the charging speed in order to keep them safe. Most likely that won't happen to the newer cars now.
It is sad for the owners but the cars back then was basically glorified betas.
I agree on the compensation though, there wasn't that many sold off these so give them 10.000 euros or a large discount on a new tesla.
They don't make the 85kW pack anymore, that's the biggest reason
@@mikaeloverby They could easily compensate the nerfed ones with 90kWh packs or with the existing 350V 85KWh pack. I have the feeling they dont care anymore about the early adopters.
How does the nerfed Tesla charge at non Tesla ccs2 chargers?
ABP. Always Bring Passport. 👍
I don't think you discussed why it might be nerfed.
If I look at positive side , a 6-7 years old EV today is a huge time considering technologie development . So having that car still doing same or little more time than new ones is a good result especially in many cases people don’t drive 1000km every week. For me 30min or 1hour drive more on a total of 10-11hours drive is acceptable for such an « old » car
But in 2 years, Optimus Prime will be as old as Millennium Falcon is today. And he will most likely still hit 140 kW.
@@bjornnyland let's have a race between Optimus and the Millennium Falcon! but first fix the wheel stagger on MF. Optimus was always more thirsty too
Most Model S 85 owners don't drive 1000km every week, it's true, but when they do, *unlike Bjorn* they don't:
* stop every 100km or less
* record/edit videos while waiting
* don't use a passport
* use ScanMyTesla
* arrive with less than 1% SoC
* ignore Tesla navigation charging time and SoC at arrival estimates
* drive alone
If Bjørn tried it as most people doing 1000km in these cars, traveling with their families, he would probably
* drive at least 2hrs in a row,
* tried his best to keep the family entertained and their minds away from the charging speed
* drive within speed limits (+/- VAT)
* kept everybody reassured that the SoC is enough to arrive to the destination (despite "drive below ..." warnings on the screen)
Not only the 2019.16.1 update tanked the charging speed but it also messed up the SoC estimates. It would be interesting a challenge between different cars where the onboard gom/estimates would be followed religiously to compare how good they are.
If you drive one of these older Tesla's, you must know the car and when to start making your own estimates. It makes it usable. Otherwise, they're not much more than amazing XXL size city cars.
I raise this point every time someone mentions X car with X hundred mile range needs even more range. But then if you don't need such a high range, why get a Tesla?
@@benholroyd5221 most time you don’t need a Tesla …. But You want a Tesla :) In my case my model 3 is my only car so I needed a car that can do all type of trip and situations but for many friends that look for a second car ad EV I recommend them « smaller&cheaper » cars with lower range .
I don't understand why so many car manufactories are using frameless windows nowadays. The older the car gets, the more issues you get with sealing / wind noice, freezing and stuck windows during winter etc.
That is not true, it 100% depends on the manufacturer, take any mercedes 300CE from 1987 (34 year old). No problems at all with the frameless windows.
@@buddy1155 Well Mercedes from the 1980s were probably exceptions from the rule. Built like a tank! ;-) I have experience with several other makes and models, and they all have issues.
@@xiphias256 I agree that the 1980's Mercedes are probably the most durable cars build. And I agree that problems you summed up are indeed common at several cars.
The problem is always bad design, there is nothing inherent wrong with frameless windows.
We only disagree on the fact that it should be dropped or should be improved. If we dropped all technology that wasn't perfect on first try we would still be living in caves.
Weight.
Yep, its crap, for all the reasons you mentioned. Wish my car didnt have it.
Is Toyota going to compensate that phone app for Proace EV does not exist? Although it was showed in the brochure and claimed ‘ 'coming soon’ in the owners manual.
My question is, is this because there is an increment on internal resistance with the aging?, If not, my perception of Tesla will of course be changing. So, if it is because aging let's see LiFePO4 behaviour next upcoming years, very interesting. Thanks Björn
Solve an issue, another issue shows up, thats reality of new technology, however, the way tesla handled the 85 battery issue will as well similar for all new tesla products, thats a serious trust issue on the manufacturer-customer relstionship
That is the question. But they surely must have done a cost-benefit analysis with fancy graphs and everything, and conclude that they are coming out worse if old batteries are to rapidly lose capacity (with higher charging speed) vs. the other. It's hard to make a distinction between how much of it is based on the physical reality of batteries vs. PR, hence the trust issue. So it goes back to the basic message that Mr. Musk was telling from the start, that his mission is to accelerate sustainability. I'm nobody, but I'd say it's important to value the good intention, even when some realities creep in the picture and erode that trust.
It's his word, basically. How much of this trust would be there if the corporation didn't have him, though...
@@szaboaz i have colleagues with other EV car, dont remember manufacturer.
They as well get battery issues, but got battery packs upgraded to different model pack.
Ideally, all 85 pack should have received a recall, or proper fix, not a cheap bandaid fix by nerfing charging.
The fancy cost-beneift analysis that you are talking is irelevant for a customer point of view, my car is cripled, bottomline is trust and promise is lost.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 yep. They've already lost one new purchase from me so far. I have another car coming up for replacement and am not considering Tesla for this one either since this remains unresolved.
@@abraxastulammo9940 can you downgrade easily or is it a tricky thing? Thanks
What tyres are on the car? Thinking about the high consumption.
The triangle window can be adjusted, takes 10 mins.
@@InternetDude I have done it myself, it is very easy to do. How hard is it to line up glass / metal with soft rubber? LMAO.
why was the charging nerfed ? age of the battery pack or something else ?
That sucks. I thought an older S would be a great "All-American road trip" vehicle. Did they nerf all markets?
Do they un-nerf it if you buy a new battery, or do you just be happy it's not a Leaf and charge on AC?
@@RandyTWester happy that it’s a non-leaf leaking in air. Maybe I’d rather have a leaf in that case.
@@RandyTWester The OG LEAF is a great car.
It's only the 85 and 70kwh packs that they throttled. Get a 90 or 100 pack and your good to go Transamerica ;)
it still is
I found it nice to see the old binnacle screen, reminded me of my old 2014 MS, which I occasionally miss. I used to like to moment by moment power usage.
Hej Björn,
Har tittat på dig i många år.
Men nu först tänker jag att köpa en model X.
Jag har en fråga om jag köper en utan dragkrok, finns det någon du känner till som kan eftermontera en dragkrok på den bil jag köper?
Mvh Tony, Sverige
But what is your normal long distance consumption, because here in the Netherlands my 85 from 2014 does 220 for 120 km/h. Nevertheless, the charging speed is similar and not Tesla worthy.
Netherlands is flat. Norway has hills.
There is always a much higher consumption right after supercharging for about 15 km on highway is my experience and then it falls to about 220-230 this time of year with winter tires.
Buy a Tesla they say. OK! /BuysNewModel3/ It'll be awesome they say! /OMG it is awesome. Yes, yes it is/ Thanks for all the great videos Bjorn!
Bjørn, I totally agree with you. As an early adopter with a Model S still in use Tesla made me a tester for their car. The actual charging speed is so slow, that I decided to sell the car. There is no compensation from Tesla, so the new car won’t be a Tesla.
Good luck with other manufacturers being more open to compensate you if their cars suffer from degradation and loss of charging speeds.
Another distrust customer, congratulations Tesla.
A bit compensation is the free charching.
If you did not realize that you might be an early adopter when buying an early sample of the first mass produced car from a new car manufacturer, this might be on you. A car that was revolutionary on so many levels that the Citroen DS seems like a boring addition to the car world. OBVIOUSLY you would be a tester. This was all new technology, as in not rivaled by anyone ever. Additionally, this was a US company in Silicon Valley. Honestly I find the hint that you feel entitled to compensation ridiculous.
With that said, I salute you for buying an early sample. Your sacrifice has, is, and will actually change the world for the better.
Why was the BP replaced ?
Sorry if someone else has asked already... what wheels are on the car? They're not the stock wheels
Why was he supercharging at 32amps instead of 40amps?
That amp setting is for AC charging.
9:02 absolute madman
It would be so interesting to get MF to Autoteile Zimmermann (a very good Tesla specialised Workshop in southern Germany with own YT channel) to see what's the condition.
The battery nerf? That's because a small number of those old 85kW Packs started to burn, they found out it's because the chemistry can't handle the fairly optimistic charging speed with high cycle counts. That's why they reduced it with a firmware update. At least that's the story I know, not 100% sure.
Sounds plausible that a 5 year old battery pack would be speed capped. Tesla has always been pessimistic about superchargers.
One solution is probably to “rotate the tyres” to even out the wear, to “rotate” the battery modules in the pack after 5 years, replacing cells in the modules that are unbalanced to refurbish the battery pack.
However, you would also need parts that aren’t easy to obtain, working or new/refurb battery modules with refurbished, or new cells of a different chemistry/age that is modified to work with the same BMS parameters.
It’s not like swapping the tyres, it’s swapping the “fuel tank”. And possibly the motors and axles. And the charging circuit / side panel for CCS charger support. Etc. extensive modifications, outside of warranty or safety.
However, the problem is that failed super-charging, dropping back to 50kw or lower isn’t obvious to the driver unless they can access the BMS directly to look at the pack diagnostics which shows thermals and voltage levels that might have weak cells in a module, which brings down the whole module. And it’s not a good idea to allow that, because then people would want (and probably now armed with some justification) to replace the packs under warranty.
Maybe there’s a way to rebalance the pack or assay the “problematic cells” that are reducing the DC float to a “safe” current to balance the aging cells more gradually. I have seen that some workshops have pulled the older packs apart to replace/repair the modules that have excess heat, by rebalancing and watching with thermal cameras for cells that heat up and refurbishing the module over time, sic.
But it’s not something you could do with an insured/warranty car.
Not yet anyway.
@@Toliman. so many "could be", "may be", this and that reasoning by experts and 3rd party workshops.
but no proper communication from tesla to owners. I am not a lawyer, but, i can feel that this is not legally correct, cheating the customer.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 the problem is that you're looking at chemistry reactions that occur when you charge, and discharge.
The Battery in an EV, is not a homogenous "ocean" or single object, but a population of individual cells in a "city".
There is no communication from Tesla, because there's no way to actually know if the battery pack is "bad" or "good" unless it has an observed problem. And that fault may not show up unless someone spends dozens of hours to pull the battery apart and check rigorously, or there's a catastrophic event, which also may not show up.
If Tesla just sent out information to owners that they could pay to swap their old packs with 2022 Model S LFP and an upgrade for BMS, EPU/UI upgrades and charging, as an option... this would solve the wishy-washy silence from Tesla where they won't even talk about their problems, because it opens up very public liability for their past mistakes.
The silence does create a problem, as it has also led to opportunities, i.e. Rich Rebuilds wouldn't be the powerhouse he is, without salvaging and savaging Tesla mercilessly. He's right to be aggrieved, but the argument that it should be up to Tesla, is supposing that Tesla can fix their own cars. Which sounds ridiculous, but it probably has a kernel of truth, they may not be able to fix their own cars, or offer upgrades without getting into legal problems of liability or misrepresentation, because some people will miss out if they offer an upgrade path.
Much the same as you can't know if there's a potential criminal in an entire Country or City unless there's some indication, or, you just lock the entire city down to find a potential problem ... which is a terrible method that inverts safety for anxiety.
And just like a city, when there's a problem, you don't empty the entire country and replace the people and homes. You just find the problem and fix it when you find the problem.
The issue is that Tesla, being first in a lot of ways, can't pioneer laws or Customer Service. It's always been obnoxiously mediocre with CS and Repair, to a critical point where it has been a major weakness for their early adopters left with broken cars for months or years in some cases. This has improved, but it's a problem that they should be legally forced to face, especially the unacknowledged defects that they won't list, because it would slow down production lines of new cars, to focus on meeting obligations or expectations of service.
The problem isn't the black and white "replace", it's the grey of "meets expected performance", because, there is no agreement or condition to benchmark what the battery should be like at the end of the warranty period. or beyond the warranty period in the case of some of the P85Ds and P90 series, and older. There is no customer law or lemon law that guarantors or protects consumers with a 10 year old car needing replacement or repair.
The cardinal idea is that the Battery just exists, so it should work as if it were a 9v battery that you just slide in and out. And, for insurance, they would prefer to have the battery as a single unit in the event of lease terms, collision or defect, recall or repairs.
If the Car Manufacturer's were forced to replace cell packs, by insurance concern or safety concern, we would be having a vastly different level of discussion.
Instead, the problem exists where the degradation of one, many, all or any cell out of the Possible Billions inside Powerwalls or Tesla's is a factor that cannot be predicted, and it can't be insured or detected in advance either.
The odds are fantastic, but it only takes that one fatigued cell or manufacturing defect to destroy a car, or a power station, or a garage, etc. If you treat the battery as if it's a 9V "single unit", then it seems insane not to replace it and deal with the refurbishment market. And, some people do deal with pack swaps when there's problems.
Instead, just like a city, you can have trouble monitoring the behavior of thousands of people, especially if you only have 3 or 4 sensors, the "police" of that city. If there's thousands of small individual cells, and one AA sized cell (roughly) out of 1000 have a minor defect, or they shift or move over time due to environment or vibration, or there's an imbalance of charge potential, there's a safety system that has to kick in to prevent the module and also notify the car "somehow" that there's going to be a loss in capacity.
How or when this happens, is not public, and that algorithm could change, and apparently has in the past decade.
Conversely, Tesla isn't going to check this across a fleet of millions of cars unless they have to perform an incredibly detailed assay of their global fleet, or they have a method to survey and self-diagnose the modules.
There are alternatives, but if you are in the position of having a liability like an aged battery pack on an aged car, it's going to be a problem that Tesla or the 3rd party markets are going to solve, with or without Tesla.
I run a Model S P85 from 2015 125,000 UK miles, I remember the update that nerfed the charging also my car toasted the battery (water leak over 3 years finally battery went futt) Tesla replaced the battery for free as car was at 75,000 miles it went quicker but charged slower so no big deal.......still love this car.....waiting......waiting........waiting for my Roadster.
You think the 85 is bad! My classic Feb 2013 model s 60 doesn't go over ~50kw hahah. It takes 2x as long to supercharge as the computer predicts.
Does ur older Tesla charge free like my 2016 S90D?
the cars estimation of 15min to 50% was correct, maybe 1min off or so. just check your time. I always said, the KW is fairly lower, but the time is the same. Or maybe 3-5min off compared to before. I think they changed the KW value, what it means on the old cars. I know how long I had from 10% to 70% on old versions. If I meassure the time now, its like 4min more then before. but the KW is way lower...
i can accept that early models have these issues. but is this also the case with the new 100kwh packs? or the M3 packs?
No. Model 3 not at all yet. At some point it has to come but people who made 300.000km with their Model 3 still report normal behaviour across the board.
The 75, 90 and 100kWh packs had a downgrade in charging speed but Tesla completely revoked it months ago. They all charge like new again afaik
Consumption is really high damn. I saw a video of a tesla model s plaid doing around 188wh/km at 70mph with the 21" wheels.
The new Model S Plaid has 255 in the front and 285 in the rear. Massive tires!
Summer tires with the temps between 1C and 13C?? Pirelli says their P Zero summer tires can crack if the temp goes below 7.2 C.
This is really frustrating, they even leave battery cooling running on 85packs when you leave them with SOC over 78% which makes it impossible to prepare for larger trips when having no Wallbox.
Did you actually speak to Tesla about the nerfed speed? If they are so scared abt. those 85packs why they dont offer at least a discounted upgrade to 90 packs or smth?!?! Someone with some influence needs to speak up to Tesla abt this, as you said: leaves no good feeling for early supporters
And the bat pumps are still running after 6 hours after a 100% long distance run. This car is nerfed to death. What a joke.
Great video - love the commentary and view of EV life in N EU.
But… not sure your criticisms of the Model S are valid. Your tests are great; but I don’t believe that’s the normal use case. I suspect most people will charge a) overnight; b) while I’m at work. And batteries - at least their current tech - do degrade. 315 000 is a LOT of driving and charging.
Impressive how fresh the interior looks :-)
Hi Bjørn, Last week i was on a road trip from Drammen to Stockholm and notice my model s 75d 2018 recive peak speed of 125kw (21-34%) and above 100kw (11-42%) do my car charge that slow in a few years?
You’re lucky. I rarely get it to 120 kw, late 2018 mod s75D for me.
@@omarbabakarkhail my family Also have a model x 75d 2017 and they said the highest they have seen was 126kw. One kw more them mine🤣
I switched tires from Pirelli to Michelin and got between 30-40wh/km higher consumption on average. Significantly more in higher speeds and rain. Will be going back to Pirelli.
Double check your tire pressure. I’d get 15-20% higher conaumption at 41 psi than t 45+ psi. Massive difference.
@@Frygisk Have done it several times, but it makes no difference. Michelin Pilot Sport 4 has a different rubber compound, which makes them more sticky and thus has a worse rolling resistance. But on the plus side, they get an incredibly good grip on dry asphalt.
With my Pirelli P Zero I was able to get down to just over 140Wh/km on 70-80km/h roads. Now I hardly get below 200Wh/km on the same roads.
@@eastcoastdashcamsweden2483 Similar tires dont have that difference, by far. Something else is amiss/different. I guarantee it.
Did tesla slow down the charge speed of this car because of free supercharging?
No
I have the same Tesla with 170k. Two months ago battery was replaced within the warranty, but charging speed was not changed. Looks like it’s the limitation is not in the battery, but in the car itself. I think with older software release it will charge faster.
All 85Kwh batteries of this chemistry are limited. You just got a refurbished battery of the same type, it will slow charge. The limitation is not the car. As soon as you install a 90Kwh battery in there (or maybe a completely unexistent new 85Kwh one, but no longer produced) the charging limit is no longer there.
Considering how old the car is that is actually really impreossive. And the car is actually not 6 but 8 years old if it's a 2013 Model S, isn't it? (notes in the sheet)
It does say 8 years in the sheet🤔
@@santerixdxd The battery is not the first, it was replaced.
@@santerixdxd Well I was stupid and looked at the upper result when making my comment :D To my defense, I was semi distracted with work while watching the video.
It indeed does say 8 year old car and I guess the result isn't as impressive as the one achieved 2019, but given the cold temperature it's still decent I guess.
Bjorn you haver to do a trip internet Portugal you won't complaint about the food, it's the best
And drive your Millenium Falcon over here!!!
Just for some perspective, how does the MF compare to any other 8 year old EV with over 240K km on its battery?
Oldest Nissan Leafs with same km go 30km on a single charge.
So if I have a trailer, Do I just make the trailer stick out that way A car can still use the front charger? Bjorn those pigs are so intelligent, vegan alternatives can be good too. I love your vids and humor.
Don't forget: this car is only 8 years old. That's not much at all, loads of people want to keep their cars at least that amount of time.
According to IHS, the average length of ownership was a record 79.3 months, or nearly seven years.
It's more than average.
@@avirbd Yes, a bit more than average. Which means it is still in the high part of the bell curve.
Why not Hyundai Ioniq 5 in the list?
why not use more aero-like wheels?
Because they are ugly.
@@bjornnyland understandable bjorn. have a nice day. :)
Hmm, interesting. People worry about degradation, but it seems with Teslas the bigger worry is the nerf in charging speeds. Which is good news in a way (still great usable range), but of course for those that do drive long distance it is bad news.
Is that an mcu2? Really responsive...
It has to be. 2021.40 on a P85 it's not MCU1 territory 😝
th-cam.com/video/jxK8Jq8cfBM/w-d-xo.html
Bjorn are you going to test the new KIA EV6 soon? :)
Watching these videos kinda make me doubt my purchase on a tm3 Lr 🥺 got delivery some time in desember though, still some time to decide 🤷 great video though, by the way the right lane in the start of the video are primarily for speed locked vehicles, heavy vehicles or vehicles that is turning off the highway, so correct placement would be middle lane
This will most likely not happen with Model 3. Watch tomorrow's video.
I'm looking forward to an LFP model 3 with maybe 300 mile range in the future. Long term will have less degradation and probably won't be nerfed due to less fire risk.
If not nerfing, some other issue might showup and end up in similar situation 5 years after.
Quite certain they have gone through most of the baby problems now. The first cars sold was more like concept cars still under development.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 As with any other car. Look at Leafs or Bolts.
This is very interesting, and slightly disconcerting. I’m about to possibly buy a 2016 P90DL, would this car suffer the same fate?
Nobody knows. But 75, 90 and 100 have Different battery chemistry. Thus Maybe not
Range wise it's not a big difference but charging speed is night and day. The 90 pack is really good.
240,000 miles on the pack , 8 years old and it still charges quicker than a mk2 leaf
164K miles... You got to imagine there are Model 3s with more miles then that on a batt pack... also will be interesting to see LFP with high mileage and how it does.
You're comparing apples with bananas ...
Really entertaining 🤭 Cold air leaking 😤
3 digit charging speed?? Havn’t had that in years with my 2015 85D.
Mine usually starts at around 70 and quickly falls back to 50-ish…
Cold battery and / or too high SoC
@@f36443 I whish… This is supercharging on roadtrips with preheated battery at around 15-20% SOC (I always start my trips with 80% SOC)
@@christian_eklund get the pumps checked out, there's 4 of them and if even one of them silently fails you might end up with bad thermals!
A few days ago I noticed that the stall i was charging at didn't climb above 54kW with the Type2 connector, so I tried the same stall with the CCS adapter and IT charged like expected. I suspect that the old connectors might be a bit worn out
@@christian_eklund to get three digits SoC needs to be at 5-10%, but it doesn’t last long.
Hi, what is the battery degradation with this car, after the 265000 km and what 7 years? It would be very interesting to compare this car to another P85 from 2013 or 14 with less milage to compare the cyclical vs calendar degradation of the batteries.
th-cam.com/video/4aTgscnmlR8/w-d-xo.html
Considering its an 8 year old ev. not bad at all. just not in winter. Remember this was early adopter tech, tbh, its a surprise its still alive.
The question is why did tesla do this ? Because the car charges for free ? Or because the battery is old and used and must charge slowly ?
One question that arises: If you have an old S but then install a brand new battery: will you then also either directly or reasonably quickly and gradually also get nerfed?
if you get a new battery, you get a 90, not an 85 so it's a little better
@@Chrisb8s Not a little better... a lot better.
Do you know the value of an old S vs the price for a new battery?
@@HansKruse that's true.. a lot better
@@moestrei actually the value of Old S's is up. the truth is, most people don't go on long trips everyday, they drive around town and rarely supercharge. a new battery would cost about 14K, plus, usd. I am guessing that pre AP P85 would be about $25,000 in the US, although Bjorn's is in exceptionally good shape, maybe a little m ore
I think it's not /just/ the charging speed. How much does the 17% increase in Wh/km have on the number of charging stops?
My guess it increases the number of charges required! So not only is the P85 MF suffering from slow charging, it needs to carry out an extra charge too! What I'm thinking is that it's not just the one variable (slow charging) which slowed the 1000k to 11h50.
As a side-note, it would be interesting to see the "number of charges" and/or "energy used" in this sheeiiit too!
(I just realised that multiplying Wh/km by 1000 gives the energy used, so still 17% more then)
Where did you get that double hotdog??:O
Circle K
@@bjornnyland I just bought some shares. It doesn't matter which EV is best if you're selling hot dogs beside the CCS chargers.
A Fair comparison would be to compare the 2013 Model S with other 2013 EV's,for example the 2013 Nissan Leaf.
Comparing a 100k car vs a 30k car wasn't a fair comparison then and isn't one now... Unless you meant to compare degradation and change in charging speed for the new vs the old car.
@@BilldalSWE Yes, that's what I meant. And there weren't many EV models around back then..
Can’t wait till the model s refresh and x and cyber truck
A legendary Car in many respects
Makes you miss driving the NIO huh? Thanks for your videos... always very insightful!
Yes and no. It depends.
Kind of cold. Temperature 1 degrees. Just Norway things.
My takeaway of this video is TB and wifey going Thailand. Uploads will make my winter. Hope pregnancy carv real thai food, southern. E.g. Pak Phayun
Brother of another mother, north thai food tasteless. Would love to se a video renting EV roadtrip down south. TB drooling proper food
tbh i dont think thats that big of a drawback, in our gas car we drive to switzerland in like 10-11hours and thats around 930km, the stops dont matter, theres always someone who has to pee or theres a moment when we need to have lunch or breakfast
If Tesla nerfed the 85Kwh battery pack there must be a safety reason involved. I bet fire risk/cell failure more likely on the pack with fast charging/high currents with aging . Better charge slower than burning the car...
Better to recall and fix it instead of crippling a long range cars that are meant and designed and bought for road trips. Thats the point. They are not cheap cars to be putting a bandaid.
Sounds like a warranty replacement should be done for such a serious defect, not a software patch top hide the problem. Horrifically bad precedent that they're getting away with this.