My P85 from april 2014 has now done 290.000km and it charges about the same as shown in this video. I only supercharge on long trips and in the same way as shown in the video. I drive to Italy 4 times a year. Twice to Northern Italy and twice to Tuscany and Abruzzo. For the trip back and forth to Italy from Copenhagen I will spend around 2 hours extra each way for charging compared to a newer Tesla. I often spend 2-3 hours in queues on the motorway through Germany due to regular roadwork. I'm typically away 2-3 weeks at a time and while I'm in Italy I never wait for charging as it done at hotels. At home I almost never supercharge and don't wait for charging. So in total per year I will spend about 16-20 hours extra on charging. Some of that time is spent going to the rest room and some to eat, so in the end it is probably more like 10 hours waiting for the car per year. If you get really get worked up about this, it is insanely annoying, but if you are rational, is it a big deal? Will I sell the car due to this alone? Absolutely NO! I love to drive the car and in fact there is a special feeling about driving the first really usable electric car. Btw. I do not have the issue with the small triangle window in my car. My car has held up really well. I have had some repairs on the air suspension and other suspension parts. It has been very reliable, but I had several drive train replacements and (of course) the big battery will run out of warranty in april 2022.
Yes, I own a P85 2014. Yes I have limited charging. I understand that this is old tech, but they should be transparent, honest about this with something like: "Hey Tesla owner, look, we have to limit your battery charging speed coming with update XYZ due to safety reasons, to avoid fire, etc.etc. We are sorry about this, and working on an improved battery pack and as goodwill you will receive X% discount when they become available in some years in case you decide to upgrade/replace" I am not even asking for a warranty replacement (which they probably should have done), but at least recognize and work with the clients to mitigate the issue and not ignore it
@@balajipushpanathan7575 The car still works, it just charges slightly slower in exchange for longevity of the battery and safety. Unclear there should be a recall given batteries in EVs are a depreciating part--e.g. we all know we won't have the range at 9 years we had new and isn't clear we should expect the same charge speed as the battery degrades either.
@@teslaanwalt4760 batteries are chemical devices. the fact that they degrade is a known thing and is to be expected. happens to laptop, cell phones (...). at some point the battery will die, there is no escaping it. what is expected from tesla is a battery replacement program, with all new battery tech (say a version with 4680) for the model S
@@AmauryJacquot you're right, but the case here is that Tesla deliberately reduces charging speed by software update. Would be great if Tesla would offer battery upgrade programs, but I don't see that coming. At the moment Tesla is not a company that values ethical, fair and sustainable behavior towards customers. And that's a pity, because I think they would be far more successful otherwise in the long run.
I already made a service appointment and i was told: 1. Its because of software update. 2. Its because I dont always navigate to supercharger and pre heat the battery. 3. One more reason but I forget... They told me if it still Is a problem then i need to write down the charging speed a few supercharge session en report it again... and I will make a new service appointment again, but the car first has other maintenance.
@@daanwesters5549 they tell you in the SeC what are ordered to tell consumers in case they are showing up with a complaint. Instead of doing that we are downgrading the cars to ensure that the customer will be satisfied again with his car
The tech was very much still in early development back in 2013, 2014, so from a technical perspective, this is understandable. HOWEVER, Tesla should not abandon their early customers, especially given how expensive the Model S was and still is. At the very least, they could offer to upgrade the battery packs in these early cars for a reasonable price. Even if they lose money on every single one of them, it would be a great move reputation-wise, and they would show some real appreciation towards the very people who enabled the company's success early on.
@@InternetDude Disagree. My 2012 Model S still gets firmware upgrades. Tesla also made available the MCU upgrades--they didn't have to do that. My car now gets Netflix and most of the games. What other car company provides upgrades for 9 year old vehicles? And since you have a Lexus logo, I'll just say I came from Lexus, and I had all sorts of issues with my IS 300 including melting dash issue which Lexus declined to fix and ultimately had to after a class action lawsuit. So you may think Tesla isn't doing the right thing here, but I've seen plenty of crap from other OEMs.
Bjorn - There is NOBODY online doing the type of exhaustive fact-finding that you do!! Thank you!! If you consider Tesla's as a piece of tech-equipment and not as a car, then it does make sense that they will eventually want the old/obsolete models to just go away. Similar to how Apple stops supporting certain products after so many years, and they certainly have been found to "throttle" performance of their products to encourage people to move on and get a new one. Unlike the original Tesla Roadster which has acquired collector status, the early Model S's are just going to be looked at as an old appliance...like an old dishwasher, and they'll just be thrown away. This really is a shame because it artificially shortens the usable life of the car.
At the time being it’s the opposite way. No other car maker is offering so many options to keep a car up to date than Tesla. 3G Update, CCS Adapter, MCU Replacement. This gives older Model S several more years to stay up to date. Nerving battery charging speeds is bad. However for my car Charing speed became better after another software update again but is below the original speeds. This should be handled or at least communicated by Tesla. But it’s just not true Tesla is not supporting the old Model S anymore.
I have noticed this couple of months ago: there are at least 2 types of battery degradation: the capacity can decrease and the charging speed can decrease. Everyone is focusing ont he first one, but it would be important to test the 2nd one as well. E.g. with 2018 Model 3s would be interesting. Maybe other cars too, but I chose Model 3, because they have very high peak charging speed now. So that may hurt the battery IMHO.
This goes to the heart of a corporate mentality that Tesla has that is one of the worst things about the company. They make changes to customers cars without consent, no way to skip updates or opt out of certain changes, and often times, even with the introduction of release notes, they change things without being transparent about it. Things like changing regen without saying it can be dangerous until owners get used to the change. The only option is to opt out of updates entirely, but then you have the update reminder displayed in the UI for eternity without being able to hide it, and my understanding is that Tesla has in the past forced updates on cars without the owner agreeing to it.
Then sell your tesla and get a different EV? Plenty of options if you don’t like your car to be constantly updating and remaining safe in regards to charging/driving etc.
This happened to my 2013 Model S 85. It charged fine during the summer road trip in 2019, but was very slow during a winter road trip. Tesla had also nerfed the charging curve and my car only had about 90K miles on it. This and other quality problems pushed me to trade it in for an Audi e-tron. This is a major negative of OTA updates in addition to the constant bugs introduced by Tesla.
Hi Bjorn Thank you for talking about that under carpeted topic. I had a 2014 P85 and in February 2019 it suddenly became slow in supercharging. Well it was no supercharging anymore. Only fast charging at 45kW. I felt betrayed by Tesla. Long trips became sufferings. I finally sold it and bought a 3P which charges very fast. That topic is a battery gate !
I have a 2014 85 and these days I am very lucky to ever see 80kw at superchargers. Most of the time I start off at the low 70s but it quickly drops into the 60s. It sucks.
Exact same experience for me. I did a long road trip in mine this summer to our usual vacation spot. Typically by gas car it’s 13-14 hours, this year in the Tesla was 18. A real pain to be honest.
@@timchaas I don’t even attempt something that far honestly. Last weekend I made a trip to visit some family. Usually takes 5 hours in a gas but in my tesla it took 7. Having an older 85 with reduced charging is definitely a pain
Good point about the first customers that was very important to Tesla. Im now in the situation to buy a used Tesla S - I know about this - and can get a discount on a car with the 85 battery. Or get one with 90 battery.
Can confirm. Have a 2014 S85 with 197k miles and have the exact same charging curve as you showed in the video. I always assumed it was because I always showed up to chargers with >10% charge, since we’ve only had the car for about a year.
This is mainly the same graph that I find during charging my P85D from 2015. It happened in sweden during summer 2020. The fun thing is that if I charge on a 50 kW charger it goes faster from around 40% than the supercharger...... Not impressing at all from Tesla.
2014 P85 owner here and I was lucky to have my battery replaced under warranty (albeit to a reconditioned one) earlier this year. Given how expensive it will be to replace it when the warranty has expired I'm actually okay with the reduced charging speeds in order to prolong the life of the battery.
I am with you Thor, in real world driving, the charging speed doesn't bother me that much. On a normal trip I may have to stop one time for a long stop.. I plan lunch around that stop. I never really drive for more than 6 hours at a time. so, 20 minutes more isn't too bad.. and to be honest. was it ever that fast?
@@ca09z Let me get this straight--you'd rather be on a roadtrip and be SuperCharging at the original speed and risk an unexpected battery failure? Or fire? When I'm on a trip, I want to actually get there.
Yes i have a 85D SEP 2015, same issue, about more than 100 people is running a case against Tesla on this issue in DK, we will see what will come out of that. I bought the car, because there needed to be a change towards electrification, and Tesla has made this happen more than i ever could Imagine Now I will keep this car until it dies, but 100% my next car will not be a Tesla PS: very happy you bring this up Bjørn
Hi Bjorn, It would be amazing if you would do a video reviewing the EV's you have looked at to date. A nice bit of comparison analysis using those excellent spreadsheets! Thanks
Same issue with my S85 from 2014. The only thing you "can" do is: Make a downgrade to an older Software Version (before the "charge cut"). This version is nerly the same as now (looks like the current Version). Then you have the "full charging speed" again (and the Webbrowser in the Tesla with MCU1 also works fine again). Unnecessary to say that Tesla don't do this....But some guys can do it :-)
@@DeepRacer-zr4yp Yes, the original charge speed will hurt your battery in the long run which is exactly why Tesla made this change. If you continue to charge the old S85 architecture at max speed, you're asking for a bricked battery and/or a fire. We early owners lived through this--most of the cases became news stories at the time, and as Bjorn said in the video, once the change was made, those stories essentially stopped.
I have a 2014 Model S 85 with the slow Supercharging, the real kicker is that the Supercharger network here in Iceland is just being built out now. So the car was bought with Supercharging and then years later when the Superchargers finally arrive, it's nerfed....
Thanks Bjorn, another great video. I bought a used 2015 Model S 85D - the battery had been replaced with a 90D pack, 2 years ago. On my 1st trip to a Supercharger in Scotland, I was surprised to see it charging at 104 kwh and adding 440 mi/hr initially, then reduced to 90 kwh and 378 mi/hr after 25 miles were added. Keep up the good work.
It’s one reason I changed cars. My 2014 last year was supercharging so slow. Once it started at 70kwh. Rest of time mainly 50-60 but rapidly reduced to 28-35. I changed them to the ioniq 28. Which I found so much better in most respects. Great vlog. Thank you 🙏
Mine is similar speed now. Before nerfing my top speed was 134 kw now 113 kw for a few seconds like you mentioned. Now at 50% is around 53 kw. Before at 50% was around 78%. we do long road trips every year and it makes a big difference when you have to stop at 35 superchargers for the trip. There are a couple of stop where we have to charge almost 100% to reach the next supercharger. I takes over an hour. My S 85 is original battery 400 VDC Version D with 165,000 miles. Full charge now is 236 miles. My battery warranty will expire Nov 16, 2021.
I own a 2013 model S, my charges stop are longer since I don't know when. And I discovered that the car lies on charging time : it calculates with the original charging speed. So when the car displays 45 min it is false it is one hour. And the arrival time is also false...
My 2015 MS P85D has the same slow Supercharging as you are showing now. It is disappointing, but having the free Supercharging makes it sting a bit less, and I usually find ways to entertain myself while it charges.
Bjørn, Thanks for posting these charging speed curves for Millinum Falcon. I was very curious to know how its battery performed. I have a Model S 85 D, produced in March 2015, with 49,500 miles [79,800 km]. Charging speed does seem to be slower than when I got the car in 2016, but the car is still sufficiently charged to continue my trip *before* we are ready to leave after a food or restroom break. So for real trips, the slower charging has not affected me yet.
Hello Bjorn. I recently became the owner of a 2014 Tesla S 85 model and I have the same problem with the charging speed. Before buying Tesla, I talked to a friend and asked me; Do you know what Tesla's biggest problem is? When you buy it, you won't want to drive any other fossil car anymore. And to be honest that’s what happened, I have no desire to sit in any other car. Unfortunately, I have not experienced the charging speeds that used to be, but if I have to choose between a destroyed battery and a slow charge, I choose a slow charge because I think that Tesla is a spaceship compared to fossil vehicles. I agree that the solution would be to buy a 90kW package at some promotional price for sure the best solution to the problem for anyone who is frustrated with the charging speed.
Should we accept? Well if its for saving the battery i would like to control that myself. Give me a button that adjust the charging speed.. probably not the best idea but. I supercharge maybe 2-5 times a year so
Hi Bjorn - interesting to see that the cells temp doesn't go above 43-44 degrees C on that model S 85. It would be interesting to see if it went up to 55-60C which is typical temperature as you show before several times .
I bought a 2015 model 70D for three weeks ago and I don't get it to charge higher than around 68kw at best at the supercharger. But also at home on a Gen. 3 TWC it only charges at 7kw instead of 11kw. In that light I don't feel like buying a CCS upgrade with those charging speeds. :-(
CCS upgrade is useful to be able to charge at v3 superchargers. All new Tesla superchargers sites are v3 only to my knowledge. Also allows to charge at Ionity, ...
I have a 2014 MS 85. I agree with the charging speeds. I've done 3 round trips London-Valencia with the whole family. The slow charging is somewhat inconvenient but since we travel with small kids it's OK for us. In terms of range. 213miles with 2 adults, 3 children and completely max out with cargo.
Oh don't worry about this....I think Elon said that the batteries should last a million miles, just before he announced that FSD would definitely be release in 2017. Drink that Kool Aide children!
@Robert: Exactly. Everyone here commenting that Tesla did the wrong thing by slowing down charging are the same people who would be screaming bloody murder if their battery failed and were facing a $20k replacement bill. There are options, by the way, for third-party repair in that case, at least in the US. Gruber will take the car and only charges $5k to unbrick (depending on the issue), but even that is expensive compared with waiting for 12 extra minutes to charge on a typical session.
Sure it could be, but why? The number of old Tesla’s with free supercharging is minuscule compared to the volume of Model 3’s and Y’s they sell every quarter. A far more likely explanation is that they’ve done it to increase the longevity of these older battery packs.
3 ปีที่แล้ว +4
I doubt that's their motivation, since this also affects charging at other HPC's.
@@bjornnyland IMO Tesla should've issued a recall by now. There probably hasn't been enough noise surrounding this issue and now it is being left to go away on it's own. The battery pack operates well bellow factory specifications and what you initially paid for! And it is even still under warranty.
I paid a significant amount of money for my Tesla in 2013, and I am glad I did. It was a great experience and I felt I supported something worth the while. Yes, Tesla downgraded the car over time. Yes, I had numerous other issues with the car, though all of these were eventually taken care of under warranty. The loss of charging speed doesn't hurt me much in reality, because I no longer use the car for long trips and thus hardly ever need to fast charge it. I never the less think Tesla didn't take proper care of this so far. They don't seem particularly obliged to their early customers, who got them going in the first place.
Maybe a dumb question here. If we use DC fast charging (non Tesla supercharger) is charging speed still controlled by Tesla (i.e. by the CAR) or is it controlled by the actual Tesla supercharger? I was previously told to only fast charge with Supercharger because, for example, with Chademo, charging with the adapter, is still bad for the car's battery.
Having slower charging speeds on Tesla chargers in different times shows that it is the car controlling the charging speed. It cannot be different as the cargers do not know battery degradation, temperatures etc. And should not be relied on the chargers, because if something goes wrong, you end up by having a car on fire.
This is why I personally like swapping capabilities like NIO's... This would be great for older cars that still work well (except for the battery depreciation or charging problems). With battery swapping, this car could go another 8 years no problem and still feel fairly modern, not to mention way better resale value. Later edit: A big misconception is that you need BaaS in order to swap. That is false, ALL NIO OWNERS can swap, even if you don't get BaaS and buy your own battery. This is free for life, and up to 6 swaps per month. The only difference of BaaS leasing vs. buying your own battery is the ~$10000 discount on the up-front price, which makes more sense for those who don't plan to keep the car more than 7 years.
It has some advantages, but obviously this isn’t going to be free. You will pay for the expected degradation of battery packs via the effective lease agreement with Nio. Whether it makes sense financially depends on whether the degradation of your pack is greater or leased than the average in the Nio battery pool. So if I’m a low mileage driver, it makes little sense to subscribe to Nio’s swapping program. If I’m a high mileage driver it makes more sense. But since this is effectively an adverse selection problem, it would tend to push up the cost of the service too.
You realise that you then buy the NIO then WITHOUT a battery and you have to get a battery subscription to use the car ? I would prefer a slow charging Tesla P85 compared to getting an invoice each month just to have a battery in my car...
My 2015 70D charges even slower... luckily I don't supercharge that often, and also Tesla has removed free Supercharging. I bought the car 4y old. I guess 90kWh battery pack upgrade is my only option now if I want to keep the car.
Many ownership use cases are barely affected by this. Making the batteries last is a valid plan but not being open about it with owners is very poor. Smacks of preventing warranty costs whilst avoiding compensation claims for reduced charging performance. Owners should be compensated so they can choose to stick with it or sell and upgrade to newer vehicle.
Actually .... this is very good on the software part of the battery or charger. Old batteries have a different charging curve from new ones - the resistive part of the battery circuit becomes more apparent and the charger needs to compensate for that. It seems to me that Tesla has some sort of ageing gradient in their charging software that allows for that to happen. Otherwise the fast-charger would not continue when the cell voltage jumps up like that. What you did notice on the previous video is that the cell cooling kicks in earlier, because all those Amps heat up the battery faster now, as they have a higher in circuit resistance. I'm really waiting for the XBus to come out, which I preordered, because although it's hardly a Tesla - it has hot-pluggable battery modules - that's going to make things really interesting.
Just as Apple slowed down aging iPhones to give the battery extra life, Tesla slowed the charging speed. That in itself wouldn't be a problem, it makes sense from a lifetime point of view. The problem is that neither company informed their owners that they were doing it. That's inexcusable.
Today, the charging speed is largely determined by the temperature outdoors! On our P85 2013, we got these charging speeds on a charging session in 41 degrees outdoor temperature in July: 0-10% soc 130 kw flat 15% soc down to 115 kw 23% soc down to 100 kw 30% soc down to 90 kw At around 5-10 degrees Celsius we get the same speed as Bjørn got here. (Original battery, approx. 150,000 km)
@@tkermi 290 / 5000 Battery temperature was all that mattered before the famous software update. Now this has changed (I'm 100% sure). I have had 60-70 supercharges in recent months. In minus degrees Celsius, charging will start at about 100 kw at 0% soc even if you have driven for 6-7 hours at 130 - 140 km / h.
@@jrgenaksnes2676 That's so weird. Could it be that the cell temp sensor array is somehow defective (or it's output is been read wrong) and the temperature reading affecting charge curve is taken from another sensor (more closely following the outdoors temp)?
I have a 2012 S85 that is now out of warranty and while it is a bit annoying to DC charge a little slower, DC charging itself is typically a rare event. Most people charge where they live overnight on AC. So I can see Tesla's side of this--the tradeoff is increased bricking of batteries that are near end of warranty or out of warranty already--and potentially more fires---vs a few more minutes charging on a 5% use case. Clearly whatever Tesla did worked. Further, if Tesla had offered the vehicles new with the same DC charge profile that they have now, likely most people would have still purchased the vehicle. When I bought my car, SuperCharging hadn't even been announced yet, so that's an easy answer for me. Sure, Tesla could have been a little more transparent, but if the update had said "we need to install this to protect your battery and prevent fires, but you'll charge marginally slower", most people would have understood. The flip side--recalling every Model S battery sold to that point because improvements were made later that allowed them to charge faster and safer would have likely bankrupt the company. Meanwhile, my 2012 still drives as great as the day I bought it, and we purchased a 3 when it came time to replace our other car, which in some ways, drives even better than my OG S. I won't hesitate to purchase another Tesla when the time comes, either. My buddy bought a Taycan and is now pretty disappointed with the range and availability of Electrify American chargers.
What kind of wheels are on the car at 19:04? I have the ones at 18:59. They make a difference in consumption? I mostly drive 90% highway. I have a s85 nov 2014. Thanks guys!!
Sorry, maybe I did overhear it, but: does this reduction in charging speed only happen on Tesla Superchargers or on all other fast chargers (like Ionity) as well?
So bjorn what would you recommend Tesla model s or the MG ZS long range that’s going to be out very soon because the only benefits for model s is free supercharging so which is better model s 2014 or MG ZS or MG 5 long range
For me this is my 3rd battery. 2 this year. For the original I had driven 166000 km, the second one 36000 km and this one 22000 km. For now everything is ok, only the charging speed. ModelS 85D 2015 and 225000km
I'm not sure if the power reduction is related with warranty cases, my 70 had the battery replaced last summer and the charging speed was reduced long ago... I think it was more related to the cars getting on fire. But we're just guessing
I've been watching so many videos of EV tests and only now hear someone say it out loud that 200km of typical range is more like 130 when driving at highway speeds 😄 That's what really holds me back from buying an EV. Oh and the lack of proper charging infrastructure in my country, but that only comes second.
I have a P85, and my master charger went out. Before I could replace the fuses, I had to use the supercharger. SUPER SLOW!! Like 55kw/hr slow!! It sucks
Hello Bjorn. I have a P85D and has a battery replacement for a few weeks. My old pack still has 75.4 kwh of capacity, about the same as the refurbished one but the charging speed still as bad as MF. It can peek at 130kw until 15% but then drop like a rock to around 80kw. At the SC they told me tesla will gradually try to ramp up speed, so fingers crossed and hope that's the case but I will not hold my breath until this happens.
Hello Bjorn, i see the Problem also in newer Model S. Maybe not so strong. My Model S 100D from 2017 with 150.000 km (40% DC): 10%-125kW / 40%- 110kW / 50%-85kW / 60%-65kW / 80%- 30kW / 90%- 15kW / 92%-
Great video as usual Bjorn. I'm hoping to buy my first EV soon, a second hand model S. I've been having trouble finding out which would be the best buy in terms of range after degradation between the 70D, 80D, 85D, 90D etc. I'm just wondering, I don't think you have a video comparison on all of these, or any data. I can't even find the range of them all in one place. I'd love to know which is the safest one to go for. 5 years old or so. And based on this video is the P85 to be avoided versus other models?
It has been known that batteries degrade with time and usage. If reduced charging speed is considered normal degradation, only layers win in legal action. Björns car has been heavily used. I guess he would lose. I hope Tesla gets over the worst battery shortage and starts selling replacement batteries.
@@jkn6644 Yes, only lawyers win in legal action. Which is why it’s sad that Tesla aren’t looking after their early customers. This is clearly above normal expected degradation. Tesla could offer discounted replacement packs for those affected and recycle the old packs instead of lining the pockets of lawyers if they wanted to.
@@marcsroberts Björns car has been driven over 300 000 km (if I remember correctly). 'It should be as good as new' is not a winning argument. But Lars Dam (another comment) tells his car is used only 132000 km. He reports 62 km/h speed, with charging, at 1400 km trip. In my opinion, this is a serious case.
The data at 9:53 implies an annual battery degradation of ~4.5% over 8 years. The 2015 "distance added per minute" starts at 8 at km 10 minutes charge time, but if we look at the charge increments per minute from 70 to 75 minutes, we see 1.2 km/minute only in 2015. Distance added per 5 minutes in 2021 runs between 74% and 90% of 2015 data. And the distance increment per minute between 65% and 117% of 2015. It seems like there are several effects going on here. The aging of the battery, software changes, and (outside) temperatures being different between the two data sampling periods of 2021 and 2015. I feel the bottom line question is, what were we led to believe for battery life time in 2015, what did we reasonably expect, and how does that compare with what we see today. The aging of the battery is not a case of "this car has problems" but an inherent problem of batteries. Yes, different chemistries age differently.
its not "free supercharging". Its "paid for life" supercharging. Both are not same. There were options to remove the "paid for life" supercharging which would have reduced the price tag, meaning, its not "free", its "paid for life" just like "2021 unlimited coffe" in circle-K. Please.
16:00 has Tesla claimed a specific charging rate or curve ?? if not... yeah well no compensation then. VW and Polestar did not meet their claims so the had to do something... But it would be good if Tesla would do anything about that... At least let the owner upgrade to another battery...
@@ihurtyourbrain3685 I got ScanMyTesla and my battery is around 32 degrees when I plug it in at 7-10% SoC. At 50% SoC it is near 50 degrees. I think I got the LG battery. It’s a great car, but I drive long distances and I could save a lot of minutes if it would charges faster like the Panasonic packs. Really disappointed that it won’t hit 250kw at 5%SoC with Yo-Yo driving and 42-45 degrees in the pack
@@ihurtyourbrain3685 yes. Bought it 29th December 2020. But some got the Panasonic battery at the same time. I know it has other advantages than the 2019 Panasonic model, but not the later 2021 Panasonic model. Charges significantly slower than both of them
At first I thought it was a restriction because of the free supercharging, but it's the same at every high speed charger, you had the case at a Ionity charger sadly. The Tesla Owners Forum is full of peoples with problematic 85 packs. Either they fail with no warning, or the supercharging speed is ridiculous.
Bjørn, keep it and will become a rarity, like a classic car. There were not too many of those, some got broken/replaced the battery. There will be car museums asking you for exactly this type of a software limited Tesla! 🤑👍 But honestly, this is not right from Tesla, especially now that they have sh*loads of money. I believe the company policy has been formed as they were small and everyone was fighting against them. It’s tough to turn around 180° in just a few years. Look how all those who said Teslas were the greatest bullshit of all times now are praising them?.. Difficult times… So yes, I believe Tesla should better offer some kind of compensation or a battery replacement program. Maybe even for a cost, and then you could decide if you’re doing it or not. And re-use the replaced batteries in some kind of a home appliance or power station buffer - they have enough projects where they participate, right? This would have given them ENORMOUS opportunity to show how they care, and also how they handle old battery packs. But if you ask me, they’re going to do nothing about it. And I own a Tesla and still saying this.
My MS is EXACTLY same age as Millenium Falcon with original battery and the car is suffering from the same issue. I tried to sue Tesla, but my lawyer recommended not to go ahead as Tesla confirmed to take ANY legal measure to fight the case! It might have take a several years long battle for an 8 years old car. I still love the product. I would even have been willing to pay a small amount to upgrade to a 90 pack. But they did not even agree to this. So, this issue as well as their poor service now lead me to buy a Ford Mustang Mach e! I hate to be treated as a fool.
@@InternetDude Ouch. That's just incredibly awful. Thanks for the warning, I'll be careful. You must've been very unlucky, but I don't want to be unlucky too, even if chances are low... And they don't seem to be. But, to be honest, what's the alternative? I want a long-range EV that'll comfortably sit a family of 5, what are the options under 30,000€? It's Tesla or nothing! The only alternative is waiting 3-4 years for some used Kia EV6s, VW ID.4s, etc., but that'll take a looong time. And I kinda need a car now. Logic says "get a Prius V", but I wanted an EV - I have a Nissan Leaf for commuting, and I didn't want to burn another drop of gas... We're still early adopters sadly.
@@wojciechmuras553 There are some great prices to be had on older Model S, and mine has held up great. Depends on if you want to take it on road trips frequently. While my old S has free SuperCharging, my Model 3 LR has better range and charges amazingly fast, especially on the new 250 kW SuperChargers. If you are worried about a big repair on an old S, though, go for a 3, you won't regret it.
@@wojciechmuras553 my Tesla model S 70D from 2015 have been heavenly reduce in charging speed at the superchargers. Not what I was promised when I bought it - not at all. About double time for charging now - very bery annoying, but as long as you just charge at home is a very nice and recommendable car Else it is an excellent car
Great that Batterygate is being highlighted like this Bjorn. Tesla marking their own homework to avoid paying out on battery warranty. You wait 3 owners, this is coming to you too.... Great that owners are taking it into their own hands and starting class actions about this in multiple countries, Range Gate and Battery Gate are both examples of Tesla playing fast and loose with OTA and changing what owners bought for the worse. OTA giveth and OTA taketh away.
I have a red 2013 p85 exactly like millennium falcon with 81k miles. The battery broke at about 65k miles and I was given a refurbished 85kwh battery under warranty. Scared it will happen again as I am out of warranty. Also, I have seen a BIG reduction in Supercharging speeds. It’s all aimed I think to get people to buy new Teslas. I figure Elon has enough $ at this point so I’m keeping my free supercharging for life even if they reduce the rate of charging on purpose
@Dad Is Phat: The type of issue you had at 65k is exactly the reason why Tesla made this change. As Bjorn said, instances of S85 battery issues became significantly fewer once this change was made. I wouldn't worry about it and enjoy your free electrons on Elon.
you know its funny but maybe Mister Green is on to something. I have a p85 and next week, I am renting a Model Y long range for a trip from Turo.. only $66/day. and I get my mileage paid for by work so I actually make a little. I am waiting for a model Y delivery, but the Model S is still a great car when charged at home.
Is the nerfing of charging speeds proportional to how much supercharging the pack has seen over its lifetime? Because it would make sense if packs that have been more supercharging and as a result likely more degradation would see a a bigger reduction in supercharging speeds to protect the packs. The charging speed of old ionics was a lot slower than supercharging speeds of older Model S and X cars, so it would make sense they haven’t needed to slow the speeds. And sure, VW and Polestar are being very receptive now because their EVs are new and they need to give a good impression to persuade people to buy them. Wait 6-8 years and see how receptive they are to early adopters having complaints. If VW‘s dieselgate history is anything to go by, I wouldn’t hold my breath (except around their diesels).
@@NZCUTR That’s clearly less than ideal, but I guess the question is whether it was as large a cut as with batteries that have seen more supercharger use or less than that? If it’s a blanket cut across the board that does not differentiate, then it would raise questions of whether there are issues across all packs with that chemistry, and in turn the case for compensation or replacement of the pack under warranty would be better as it would speak to some structural issues.
@@kardy12 my understanding from (admittedly) anecdotal conversations with other owners is that it must be something chemistry/structural issue as there's no discernable pattern to Supercharger use it charge limits/cycles.
6:40 so the question is - was ist REALLY "badass tech" back then or was it just "state of the art" and Tesla pushed it to and beyond the limits to achieve this charging speed back then? This would be a plausible explanation why they have to reduce charging speed now to not completely wrack these batteries.
I am convinced that it is the latter - as always with Tesla, they use very similar tech as other manufacturers, but they go way beyond the limit in order to appear "special" Same goes with the high acceleration, where after a few years drive trains started failing like crazy.
VW gave rebate only for ID3 buyers that bought heat pump as a option. We who bought the whole car with heat pump as standard (nordic contries) with the same promise got nothing.
My P85 from april 2014 has now done 290.000km and it charges about the same as shown in this video. I only supercharge on long trips and in the same way as shown in the video. I drive to Italy 4 times a year. Twice to Northern Italy and twice to Tuscany and Abruzzo. For the trip back and forth to Italy from Copenhagen I will spend around 2 hours extra each way for charging compared to a newer Tesla. I often spend 2-3 hours in queues on the motorway through Germany due to regular roadwork. I'm typically away 2-3 weeks at a time and while I'm in Italy I never wait for charging as it done at hotels. At home I almost never supercharge and don't wait for charging. So in total per year I will spend about 16-20 hours extra on charging. Some of that time is spent going to the rest room and some to eat, so in the end it is probably more like 10 hours waiting for the car per year. If you get really get worked up about this, it is insanely annoying, but if you are rational, is it a big deal? Will I sell the car due to this alone? Absolutely NO! I love to drive the car and in fact there is a special feeling about driving the first really usable electric car. Btw. I do not have the issue with the small triangle window in my car. My car has held up really well. I have had some repairs on the air suspension and other suspension parts. It has been very reliable, but I had several drive train replacements and (of course) the big battery will run out of warranty in april 2022.
Same story here with P85D, just did 200k last week, expecting it to last another 200k :)
Yes, I own a P85 2014. Yes I have limited charging. I understand that this is old tech, but they should be transparent, honest about this with something like:
"Hey Tesla owner, look, we have to limit your battery charging speed coming with update XYZ due to safety reasons, to avoid fire, etc.etc. We are sorry about this, and working on an improved battery pack and as goodwill you will receive X% discount when they become available in some years in case you decide to upgrade/replace"
I am not even asking for a warranty replacement (which they probably should have done), but at least recognize and work with the clients to mitigate the issue and not ignore it
Warranty is for unexpected things. Known stuffs like these should technically be a recall. Consumer protection is lacking here.
@@balajipushpanathan7575 The car still works, it just charges slightly slower in exchange for longevity of the battery and safety. Unclear there should be a recall given batteries in EVs are a depreciating part--e.g. we all know we won't have the range at 9 years we had new and isn't clear we should expect the same charge speed as the battery degrades either.
Thanks for the video Björn. We have several court cases here in Germany regarding this issue.
Are there successful cases? What was the result/fix? Can we get a battery without this problem, eg. the 90kWh Battery?
@@ev-ladetechnik there are settled cases. And
cases where the collection of evidence is still in progress.
@@teslaanwalt4760 batteries are chemical devices. the fact that they degrade is a known thing and is to be expected. happens to laptop, cell phones (...).
at some point the battery will die, there is no escaping it.
what is expected from tesla is a battery replacement program, with all new battery tech (say a version with 4680) for the model S
@@AmauryJacquot you're right, but the case here is that Tesla deliberately reduces charging speed by software update. Would be great if Tesla would offer battery upgrade programs, but I don't see that coming. At the moment Tesla is not a company that values ethical, fair and sustainable behavior towards customers. And that's a pity, because I think they would be far more successful otherwise in the long run.
Interesting update for ALL Tesla owners. Thanks as usual Bjørn.
I also have a model s p85 (december 2013) and lately the supercharge speed has become much much slower.
I already made a service appointment and i was told: 1. Its because of software update. 2. Its because I dont always navigate to supercharger and pre heat the battery. 3. One more reason but I forget...
They told me if it still Is a problem then i need to write down the charging speed a few supercharge session en report it again... and I will make a new service appointment again, but the car first has other maintenance.
@@daanwesters5549 they tell you in the SeC what are ordered to tell consumers in case they are showing up with a complaint. Instead of doing that we are downgrading the cars to ensure that the customer will be satisfied again with his car
@@InternetDude but why 85 owners
@@e-mobilitydrivingsolutions4449 How do you make sure the car is not going to update itself again OTA? Do you permanently block the updates?
The tech was very much still in early development back in 2013, 2014, so from a technical perspective, this is understandable. HOWEVER, Tesla should not abandon their early customers, especially given how expensive the Model S was and still is. At the very least, they could offer to upgrade the battery packs in these early cars for a reasonable price. Even if they lose money on every single one of them, it would be a great move reputation-wise, and they would show some real appreciation towards the very people who enabled the company's success early on.
@@InternetDude Disagree. My 2012 Model S still gets firmware upgrades. Tesla also made available the MCU upgrades--they didn't have to do that. My car now gets Netflix and most of the games. What other car company provides upgrades for 9 year old vehicles? And since you have a Lexus logo, I'll just say I came from Lexus, and I had all sorts of issues with my IS 300 including melting dash issue which Lexus declined to fix and ultimately had to after a class action lawsuit. So you may think Tesla isn't doing the right thing here, but I've seen plenty of crap from other OEMs.
Very useful for our 2014 Model s Thanks!
Bjorn - There is NOBODY online doing the type of exhaustive fact-finding that you do!! Thank you!! If you consider Tesla's as a piece of tech-equipment and not as a car, then it does make sense that they will eventually want the old/obsolete models to just go away. Similar to how Apple stops supporting certain products after so many years, and they certainly have been found to "throttle" performance of their products to encourage people to move on and get a new one. Unlike the original Tesla Roadster which has acquired collector status, the early Model S's are just going to be looked at as an old appliance...like an old dishwasher, and they'll just be thrown away. This really is a shame because it artificially shortens the usable life of the car.
At the time being it’s the opposite way. No other car maker is offering so many options to keep a car up to date than Tesla. 3G Update, CCS Adapter, MCU Replacement. This gives older Model S several more years to stay up to date. Nerving battery charging speeds is bad. However for my car Charing speed became better after another software update again but is below the original speeds. This should be handled or at least communicated by Tesla.
But it’s just not true Tesla is not supporting the old Model S anymore.
13:35 Nice drift :D
Tesla should really try to find a better solution for this.
Same here on my 2013 P85+. I don’t like this, but don’t know what I can do either. It’s really bad when going on roadtrips.
I have noticed this couple of months ago: there are at least 2 types of battery degradation: the capacity can decrease and the charging speed can decrease. Everyone is focusing ont he first one, but it would be important to test the 2nd one as well. E.g. with 2018 Model 3s would be interesting. Maybe other cars too, but I chose Model 3, because they have very high peak charging speed now. So that may hurt the battery IMHO.
@@ED-im4hc not if you want to own
@@ED-im4hc Yes, but for the rest 99% of the BEV buyers, the question is still important IMHO.
This goes to the heart of a corporate mentality that Tesla has that is one of the worst things about the company. They make changes to customers cars without consent, no way to skip updates or opt out of certain changes, and often times, even with the introduction of release notes, they change things without being transparent about it. Things like changing regen without saying it can be dangerous until owners get used to the change.
The only option is to opt out of updates entirely, but then you have the update reminder displayed in the UI for eternity without being able to hide it, and my understanding is that Tesla has in the past forced updates on cars without the owner agreeing to it.
Then sell your tesla and get a different EV? Plenty of options if you don’t like your car to be constantly updating and remaining safe in regards to charging/driving etc.
@@benjaminwinrow9620 I strongly suggest you to consider how much the 85 car costs and relate that to your suggestion.
This happened to my 2013 Model S 85. It charged fine during the summer road trip in 2019, but was very slow during a winter road trip. Tesla had also nerfed the charging curve and my car only had about 90K miles on it. This and other quality problems pushed me to trade it in for an Audi e-tron. This is a major negative of OTA updates in addition to the constant bugs introduced by Tesla.
I am also not happy with Tesla quality issues
Hi Bjorn
Thank you for talking about that under carpeted topic.
I had a 2014 P85 and in February 2019 it suddenly became slow in supercharging. Well it was no supercharging anymore. Only fast charging at 45kW.
I felt betrayed by Tesla. Long trips became sufferings.
I finally sold it and bought a 3P which charges very fast.
That topic is a battery gate !
I have a 2014 85 and these days I am very lucky to ever see 80kw at superchargers. Most of the time I start off at the low 70s but it quickly drops into the 60s. It sucks.
Have you still a mcu1? Than there are solutions
Exact same experience for me. I did a long road trip in mine this summer to our usual vacation spot. Typically by gas car it’s 13-14 hours, this year in the Tesla was 18. A real pain to be honest.
@@e-mobilitydrivingsolutions4449 I’m not sure actually?? How can you tell? I had the whole mcu and screen replaced two years ago
@@timchaas I don’t even attempt something that far honestly. Last weekend I made a trip to visit some family. Usually takes 5 hours in a gas but in my tesla it took 7. Having an older 85 with reduced charging is definitely a pain
@@tevinlimon8967 please check whether you have an Nvidia tegra system and not an Intel atom system.
Good point about the first customers that was very important to Tesla. Im now in the situation to buy a used Tesla S - I know about this - and can get a discount on a car with the 85 battery. Or get one with 90 battery.
Can confirm. Have a 2014 S85 with 197k miles and have the exact same charging curve as you showed in the video. I always assumed it was because I always showed up to chargers with >10% charge, since we’ve only had the car for about a year.
Wife's 2014 P85 got a new battery. 85kWh 350V package, and they removed the free supercharging as well... Great.
This is mainly the same graph that I find during charging my P85D from 2015. It happened in sweden during summer 2020. The fun thing is that if I charge on a 50 kW charger it goes faster from around 40% than the supercharger...... Not impressing at all from Tesla.
2014 P85 owner here and I was lucky to have my battery replaced under warranty (albeit to a reconditioned one) earlier this year. Given how expensive it will be to replace it when the warranty has expired I'm actually okay with the reduced charging speeds in order to prolong the life of the battery.
I am with you Thor, in real world driving, the charging speed doesn't bother me that much. On a normal trip I may have to stop one time for a long stop.. I plan lunch around that stop. I never really drive for more than 6 hours at a time. so, 20 minutes more isn't too bad.. and to be honest. was it ever that fast?
@@ca09z Let me get this straight--you'd rather be on a roadtrip and be SuperCharging at the original speed and risk an unexpected battery failure? Or fire? When I'm on a trip, I want to actually get there.
@@ca09z I don't think it is as much about prolonging battery life as it is preventing battery failure and/or fire.
Yes i have a 85D SEP 2015, same issue, about more than 100 people is running a case against Tesla on this issue in DK, we will see what will come out of that.
I bought the car, because there needed to be a change towards electrification, and Tesla has made this happen more than i ever could Imagine
Now I will keep this car until it dies, but 100% my next car will not be a Tesla
PS: very happy you bring this up Bjørn
Totally agree. Tesle does not handle this in a good way.
Hi Bjorn, It would be amazing if you would do a video reviewing the EV's you have looked at to date. A nice bit of comparison analysis using those excellent spreadsheets! Thanks
Same issue with my S85 from 2014. The only thing you "can" do is: Make a downgrade to an older Software Version (before the "charge cut"). This version is nerly the same as now (looks like the current Version). Then you have the "full charging speed" again (and the Webbrowser in the Tesla with MCU1 also works fine again). Unnecessary to say that Tesla don't do this....But some guys can do it :-)
Will this hurt the battery on the long run? Why did Tesla reduce the charching speed on this 85kwh packs in the first place?
@@DeepRacer-zr4yp Yes, the original charge speed will hurt your battery in the long run which is exactly why Tesla made this change. If you continue to charge the old S85 architecture at max speed, you're asking for a bricked battery and/or a fire. We early owners lived through this--most of the cases became news stories at the time, and as Bjorn said in the video, once the change was made, those stories essentially stopped.
I have a 2014 Model S 85 with the slow Supercharging, the real kicker is that the Supercharger network here in Iceland is just being built out now. So the car was bought with Supercharging and then years later when the Superchargers finally arrive, it's nerfed....
Can you please consider to do a degradation test on 2019 model hyundai konas?
2015 P85D (12/2014) with 400V pack and
it's a dirty company
Thanks Bjorn, another great video. I bought a used 2015 Model S 85D - the battery had been replaced with a 90D pack, 2 years ago. On my 1st trip to a Supercharger in Scotland, I was surprised to see it charging at 104 kwh and adding 440 mi/hr initially, then reduced to 90 kwh and 378 mi/hr after 25 miles were added. Keep up the good work.
How much time does it take to sc? Im looking at buying the same car, used.
It’s one reason I changed cars. My 2014 last year was supercharging so slow. Once it started at 70kwh. Rest of time mainly 50-60 but rapidly reduced to 28-35. I changed them to the ioniq 28. Which I found so much better in most respects. Great vlog. Thank you 🙏
@@InternetDude hmmm prefer Tesla anyday. Personal choice.
Do they do it with the cars that have 'free supercharging" only?
TMS70 '15, 323k km. Quite nerfed - struggling to even keep kW+SoC at 100. Not ideal....
I read somewhere that Tesla was sued for this in Norway and they had to pay 150.000 NOK to each customer. Is this not true then?
I think this was only for range limitation
Mine is similar speed now. Before nerfing my top speed was 134 kw now 113 kw for a few seconds like you mentioned. Now at 50% is around 53 kw. Before at 50% was around 78%. we do long road trips every year and it makes a big difference when you have to stop at 35 superchargers for the trip. There are a couple of stop where we have to charge almost 100% to reach the next supercharger. I takes over an hour. My S 85 is original battery 400 VDC Version D with 165,000 miles. Full charge now is 236 miles.
My battery warranty will expire Nov 16, 2021.
There are solutions available. If you are still running a mcu1
@@e-mobilitydrivingsolutions4449 Sue tesla? Well and certainly never buy a tesla again.
@@e-mobilitydrivingsolutions4449 how does an mcu 1 upgrade help with this topic?
@@timchaas th-cam.com/video/RdL-s8ilH_8/w-d-xo.html
I own a 2013 model S, my charges stop are longer since I don't know when. And I discovered that the car lies on charging time : it calculates with the original charging speed. So when the car displays 45 min it is false it is one hour. And the arrival time is also false...
My 2015 MS P85D has the same slow Supercharging as you are showing now. It is disappointing, but having the free Supercharging makes it sting a bit less, and I usually find ways to entertain myself while it charges.
Bjørn, Thanks for posting these charging speed curves for Millinum Falcon. I was very curious to know how its battery performed. I have a Model S 85 D, produced in March 2015, with 49,500 miles [79,800 km]. Charging speed does seem to be slower than when I got the car in 2016, but the car is still sufficiently charged to continue my trip *before* we are ready to leave after a food or restroom break. So for real trips, the slower charging has not affected me yet.
I had battery replacement in two months ago in the same car. But replaced on refurbished 85 kwt.
Same for me. Actually it was replaced two times this year with a refurbished 85 pack. No difference in charging speed.
I have RWD 2016 facelift 70 and it’s still (on summer) charges around 100kw at 30% and then gradually drops till it reaches 80%
Hello Bjorn. I recently became the owner of a 2014 Tesla S 85 model and I have the same problem with the charging speed. Before buying Tesla, I talked to a friend and asked me; Do you know what Tesla's biggest problem is? When you buy it, you won't want to drive any other fossil car anymore. And to be honest that’s what happened, I have no desire to sit in any other car. Unfortunately, I have not experienced the charging speeds that used to be, but if I have to choose between a destroyed battery and a slow charge, I choose a slow charge because I think that Tesla is a spaceship compared to fossil vehicles.
I agree that the solution would be to buy a 90kW package at some promotional price for sure the best solution to the problem for anyone who is frustrated with the charging speed.
The (predictable?) flip-side of OTA updates
Should we accept? Well if its for saving the battery i would like to control that myself. Give me a button that adjust the charging speed.. probably not the best idea but. I supercharge maybe 2-5 times a year so
Hi Bjorn - interesting to see that the cells temp doesn't go above 43-44 degrees C on that model S 85. It would be interesting to see if it went up to 55-60C which is typical temperature as you show before several times .
I bought a 2015 model 70D for three weeks ago and I don't get it to charge higher than around 68kw at best at the supercharger. But also at home on a Gen. 3 TWC it only charges at 7kw instead of 11kw. In that light I don't feel like buying a CCS upgrade with those charging speeds. :-(
CCS upgrade is useful to be able to charge at v3 superchargers. All new Tesla superchargers sites are v3 only to my knowledge. Also allows to charge at Ionity, ...
One phase in your charger is dead. Used chargers can be had and swapped for EUR1000 (2500 at tesla).
I have a 2014 MS 85. I agree with the charging speeds. I've done 3 round trips London-Valencia with the whole family. The slow charging is somewhat inconvenient but since we travel with small kids it's OK for us. In terms of range. 213miles with 2 adults, 3 children and completely max out with cargo.
I think I'd be more worried that once the car is out of warranty any big battery issues would be completely unaffordable to repair.
Oh don't worry about this....I think Elon said that the batteries should last a million miles, just before he announced that FSD would definitely be release in 2017. Drink that Kool Aide children!
@Robert: Exactly. Everyone here commenting that Tesla did the wrong thing by slowing down charging are the same people who would be screaming bloody murder if their battery failed and were facing a $20k replacement bill. There are options, by the way, for third-party repair in that case, at least in the US. Gruber will take the car and only charges $5k to unbrick (depending on the issue), but even that is expensive compared with waiting for 12 extra minutes to charge on a typical session.
How long is the warranty on your Tesla battery pack ?
Also, it can be the way to discourage owners of old Teslas from free supercharging.
Sure it could be, but why? The number of old Tesla’s with free supercharging is minuscule compared to the volume of Model 3’s and Y’s they sell every quarter.
A far more likely explanation is that they’ve done it to increase the longevity of these older battery packs.
I doubt that's their motivation, since this also affects charging at other HPC's.
Hogging the Superchargers for longer than needed would affect the paying customers too.
Wonder if they are trying to avoid future problems with LG pack, by giving us not fantastic charging curve compared to Panasonic pack?
What was the given warranty period оn the battery pack when you replaced it? Was it not 8 years/240 000 km?
8 years unlimited km
8y - the already usage period before replacement with unlimited mileage
@@bjornnyland IMO Tesla should've issued a recall by now. There probably hasn't been enough noise surrounding this issue and now it is being left to go away on it's own. The battery pack operates well bellow factory specifications and what you initially paid for! And it is even still under warranty.
I have a 2013 models a 60. Chargering 34kw is that normal?
I paid a significant amount of money for my Tesla in 2013, and I am glad I did. It was a great experience and I felt I supported something worth the while. Yes, Tesla downgraded the car over time. Yes, I had numerous other issues with the car, though all of these were eventually taken care of under warranty. The loss of charging speed doesn't hurt me much in reality, because I no longer use the car for long trips and thus hardly ever need to fast charge it. I never the less think Tesla didn't take proper care of this so far. They don't seem particularly obliged to their early customers, who got them going in the first place.
Maybe a dumb question here. If we use DC fast charging (non Tesla supercharger) is charging speed still controlled by Tesla (i.e. by the CAR) or is it controlled by the actual Tesla supercharger? I was previously told to only fast charge with Supercharger because, for example, with Chademo, charging with the adapter, is still bad for the car's battery.
Having slower charging speeds on Tesla chargers in different times shows that it is the car controlling the charging speed. It cannot be different as the cargers do not know battery degradation, temperatures etc. And should not be relied on the chargers, because if something goes wrong, you end up by having a car on fire.
@@ContraVsGigi that makes sense thanks
Does anyone know what the cost of a new battery pack is? Also, why doesn't tesla sell reconditioned batteries to customers?
This is why I personally like swapping capabilities like NIO's... This would be great for older cars that still work well (except for the battery depreciation or charging problems). With battery swapping, this car could go another 8 years no problem and still feel fairly modern, not to mention way better resale value.
Later edit: A big misconception is that you need BaaS in order to swap. That is false, ALL NIO OWNERS can swap, even if you don't get BaaS and buy your own battery. This is free for life, and up to 6 swaps per month. The only difference of BaaS leasing vs. buying your own battery is the ~$10000 discount on the up-front price, which makes more sense for those who don't plan to keep the car more than 7 years.
This is a genius move NIO has done that Tesla has not foreseen at all.
There is zero chance the same battery design is used in 8 years time, and you will be stuck with a battery of unknown age.
It has some advantages, but obviously this isn’t going to be free. You will pay for the expected degradation of battery packs via the effective lease agreement with Nio. Whether it makes sense financially depends on whether the degradation of your pack is greater or leased than the average in the Nio battery pool.
So if I’m a low mileage driver, it makes little sense to subscribe to Nio’s swapping program. If I’m a high mileage driver it makes more sense. But since this is effectively an adverse selection problem, it would tend to push up the cost of the service too.
You realise that you then buy the NIO then WITHOUT a battery and you have to get a battery subscription to use the car ? I would prefer a slow charging Tesla P85 compared to getting an invoice each month just to have a battery in my car...
@@davidsommen1324 Tesla experimented with battery swap years ago. They decided not to use it.
My 2015 70D charges even slower... luckily I don't supercharge that often, and also Tesla has removed free Supercharging. I bought the car 4y old. I guess 90kWh battery pack upgrade is my only option now if I want to keep the car.
Many ownership use cases are barely affected by this. Making the batteries last is a valid plan but not being open about it with owners is very poor. Smacks of preventing warranty costs whilst avoiding compensation claims for reduced charging performance. Owners should be compensated so they can choose to stick with it or sell and upgrade to newer vehicle.
@@ED-im4hc Simple, maybe, unintelligible, definitely.
Actually .... this is very good on the software part of the battery or charger. Old batteries have a different charging curve from new ones - the resistive part of the battery circuit becomes more apparent and the charger needs to compensate for that. It seems to me that Tesla has some sort of ageing gradient in their charging software that allows for that to happen. Otherwise the fast-charger would not continue when the cell voltage jumps up like that. What you did notice on the previous video is that the cell cooling kicks in earlier, because all those Amps heat up the battery faster now, as they have a higher in circuit resistance.
I'm really waiting for the XBus to come out, which I preordered, because although it's hardly a Tesla - it has hot-pluggable battery modules - that's going to make things really interesting.
congrats on channel, best i would say for ev,relevant things,mesures
Just as Apple slowed down aging iPhones to give the battery extra life, Tesla slowed the charging speed. That in itself wouldn't be a problem, it makes sense from a lifetime point of view. The problem is that neither company informed their owners that they were doing it. That's inexcusable.
BUT Apple admitted the error and offered compensation.
I just bought one 2 weeks ago!
A P85 from 2013!!
What a coincidence haha
The thing is, the battery is only 3 years old and yet I still charge this slow..
Today, the charging speed is largely determined by the temperature outdoors! On our P85 2013, we got these charging speeds on a charging session in 41 degrees outdoor temperature in July:
0-10% soc 130 kw flat
15% soc down to 115 kw
23% soc down to 100 kw
30% soc down to 90 kw
At around 5-10 degrees Celsius we get the same speed as Bjørn got here.
(Original battery, approx. 150,000 km)
But only the battery temperature shoud matter. If the cell temps are optimal the outdoors temp shouldn't matter at all.
@@tkermi 290 / 5000
Battery temperature was all that mattered before the famous software update. Now this has changed (I'm 100% sure). I have had 60-70 supercharges in recent months. In minus degrees Celsius, charging will start at about 100 kw at 0% soc even if you have driven for 6-7 hours at 130 - 140 km / h.
@@jrgenaksnes2676 That's so weird. Could it be that the cell temp sensor array is somehow defective (or it's output is been read wrong) and the temperature reading affecting charge curve is taken from another sensor (more closely following the outdoors temp)?
@@ED-im4hc are you not tired pasting the same line so many times 🤬
For comparison, can you do this kind of evaluation for other EV brands? I think most EV owners have concerns over battery performance degradation.
There is no degradation. Tesla wants to cheap out on the warranty so they limit the speed without consent.
I have a 2012 S85 that is now out of warranty and while it is a bit annoying to DC charge a little slower, DC charging itself is typically a rare event. Most people charge where they live overnight on AC. So I can see Tesla's side of this--the tradeoff is increased bricking of batteries that are near end of warranty or out of warranty already--and potentially more fires---vs a few more minutes charging on a 5% use case. Clearly whatever Tesla did worked. Further, if Tesla had offered the vehicles new with the same DC charge profile that they have now, likely most people would have still purchased the vehicle. When I bought my car, SuperCharging hadn't even been announced yet, so that's an easy answer for me. Sure, Tesla could have been a little more transparent, but if the update had said "we need to install this to protect your battery and prevent fires, but you'll charge marginally slower", most people would have understood. The flip side--recalling every Model S battery sold to that point because improvements were made later that allowed them to charge faster and safer would have likely bankrupt the company. Meanwhile, my 2012 still drives as great as the day I bought it, and we purchased a 3 when it came time to replace our other car, which in some ways, drives even better than my OG S. I won't hesitate to purchase another Tesla when the time comes, either. My buddy bought a Taycan and is now pretty disappointed with the range and availability of Electrify American chargers.
Tasla was sued in Denmark because of this. They ended up compensating Tesla Model S owners. I don't remember the amount.
As far as I know this is not over and there is no compensation yet. I highly doubt there will be a compensation.
What kind of wheels are on the car at 19:04? I have the ones at 18:59. They make a difference in consumption? I mostly drive 90% highway. I have a s85 nov 2014. Thanks guys!!
Sorry, maybe I did overhear it, but: does this reduction in charging speed only happen on Tesla Superchargers or on all other fast chargers (like Ionity) as well?
It happens on all fast chargers
Do the newer revision 85 packs also have degraded charging speed or is it just the early revisions?
@@rhydlew are there E or F packs or do those don't exist?
So bjorn what would you recommend Tesla model s or the MG ZS long range that’s going to be out very soon because the only benefits for model s is free supercharging so which is better model s 2014 or MG ZS or MG 5 long range
For me this is my 3rd battery. 2 this year. For the original I had driven 166000 km, the second one 36000 km and this one 22000 km. For now everything is ok, only the charging speed. ModelS 85D 2015 and 225000km
Good info. I have a 2015 S90D with 106k miles. Still charges up to 112 kW.
@@InternetDude it does not start at the 112kW level for long, but it's still better than the P85 on the chart.
I'm not sure if the power reduction is related with warranty cases, my 70 had the battery replaced last summer and the charging speed was reduced long ago...
I think it was more related to the cars getting on fire. But we're just guessing
Let's see how the etron holds up after 5 years and more...
I owned an S 85 and sold it recently. The slow charging speed was one reason but not the main one
I've been watching so many videos of EV tests and only now hear someone say it out loud that 200km of typical range is more like 130 when driving at highway speeds 😄 That's what really holds me back from buying an EV. Oh and the lack of proper charging infrastructure in my country, but that only comes second.
Fascinating stuff very interesting thank you
Please try new Cupra Born. Fantastic looking car.
I have a P85, and my master charger went out. Before I could replace the fuses, I had to use the supercharger. SUPER SLOW!! Like 55kw/hr slow!! It sucks
Hello Bjorn. I have a P85D and has a battery replacement for a few weeks. My old pack still has 75.4 kwh of capacity, about the same as the refurbished one but the charging speed still as bad as MF. It can peek at 130kw until 15% but then drop like a rock to around 80kw. At the SC they told me tesla will gradually try to ramp up speed, so fingers crossed and hope that's the case but I will not hold my breath until this happens.
Did it happen?
Hello Bjorn, i see the Problem also in newer Model S. Maybe not so strong.
My Model S 100D from 2017 with 150.000 km (40% DC): 10%-125kW / 40%- 110kW / 50%-85kW / 60%-65kW / 80%- 30kW / 90%- 15kW / 92%-
Great video as usual Bjorn. I'm hoping to buy my first EV soon, a second hand model S. I've been having trouble finding out which would be the best buy in terms of range after degradation between the 70D, 80D, 85D, 90D etc. I'm just wondering, I don't think you have a video comparison on all of these, or any data. I can't even find the range of them all in one place. I'd love to know which is the safest one to go for. 5 years old or so. And based on this video is the P85 to be avoided versus other models?
would be interesting to see data on a large number of 85s
It’s very sad that it’s taking legal action to force Tesla to look after their early customers.
It has been known that batteries degrade with time and usage. If reduced charging speed is considered normal degradation, only layers win in legal action. Björns car has been heavily used. I guess he would lose.
I hope Tesla gets over the worst battery shortage and starts selling replacement batteries.
@@jkn6644 Yes, only lawyers win in legal action. Which is why it’s sad that Tesla aren’t looking after their early customers. This is clearly above normal expected degradation. Tesla could offer discounted replacement packs for those affected and recycle the old packs instead of lining the pockets of lawyers if they wanted to.
@@marcsroberts Björns car has been driven over 300 000 km (if I remember correctly). 'It should be as good as new' is not a winning argument. But Lars Dam (another comment) tells his car is used only 132000 km. He reports 62 km/h speed, with charging, at 1400 km trip. In my opinion, this is a serious case.
@@jkn6644 Yeah, I don’t know what’s giving you the impression that I’m particularly talking about Bjorn?
@@marcsroberts This video is made by Björn:) So his car is the default case.
The data at 9:53 implies an annual battery degradation of ~4.5% over 8 years. The 2015 "distance added per minute" starts at 8 at km 10 minutes charge time, but if we look at the charge increments per minute from 70 to 75 minutes, we see 1.2 km/minute only in 2015. Distance added per 5 minutes in 2021 runs between 74% and 90% of 2015 data. And the distance increment per minute between 65% and 117% of 2015. It seems like there are several effects going on here. The aging of the battery, software changes, and (outside) temperatures being different between the two data sampling periods of 2021 and 2015. I feel the bottom line question is, what were we led to believe for battery life time in 2015, what did we reasonably expect, and how does that compare with what we see today.
The aging of the battery is not a case of "this car has problems" but an inherent problem of batteries. Yes, different chemistries age differently.
The old Ioniqs have more cobalt in their Batteries, so you can charge "like a Ninja" 😋
its not "free supercharging". Its "paid for life" supercharging. Both are not same. There were options to remove the "paid for life" supercharging which would have reduced the price tag, meaning, its not "free", its "paid for life" just like "2021 unlimited coffe" in circle-K. Please.
Nope. It's actually free.
Bjorn, can you test the NIO swapping station please?
Not open yet.
16:00 has Tesla claimed a specific charging rate or curve ?? if not... yeah well no compensation then. VW and Polestar did not meet their claims so the had to do something...
But it would be good if Tesla would do anything about that... At least let the owner upgrade to another battery...
They have in fact.
My model 3 with the 74kwh pack charges like shiiieet compared to the one in the video. It dips below 100kw at 47-48%
LG pack?
Cold battery?
I have a 2019 LR and the charging is awesome! It dips below 100kW at ~65%
@@ihurtyourbrain3685 I got ScanMyTesla and my battery is around 32 degrees when I plug it in at 7-10% SoC. At 50% SoC it is near 50 degrees.
I think I got the LG battery. It’s a great car, but I drive long distances and I could save a lot of minutes if it would charges faster like the Panasonic packs. Really disappointed that it won’t hit 250kw at 5%SoC with Yo-Yo driving and 42-45 degrees in the pack
@@danedane6613 Yeah, probably LG. 2020 production year?
It has other advantages over the Panasonic one ;)
@@ihurtyourbrain3685 yes. Bought it 29th December 2020. But some got the Panasonic battery at the same time. I know it has other advantages than the 2019 Panasonic model, but not the later 2021 Panasonic model. Charges significantly slower than both of them
@@ihurtyourbrain3685 what are the advantages?
At first I thought it was a restriction because of the free supercharging, but it's the same at every high speed charger, you had the case at a Ionity charger sadly. The Tesla Owners Forum is full of peoples with problematic 85 packs. Either they fail with no warning, or the supercharging speed is ridiculous.
Because its really the battery management system of the car that restricts the speed, not the high speed charger.
@@ED-im4hc explain
Bjørn, keep it and will become a rarity, like a classic car. There were not too many of those, some got broken/replaced the battery. There will be car museums asking you for exactly this type of a software limited Tesla! 🤑👍
But honestly, this is not right from Tesla, especially now that they have sh*loads of money. I believe the company policy has been formed as they were small and everyone was fighting against them. It’s tough to turn around 180° in just a few years. Look how all those who said Teslas were the greatest bullshit of all times now are praising them?.. Difficult times…
So yes, I believe Tesla should better offer some kind of compensation or a battery replacement program. Maybe even for a cost, and then you could decide if you’re doing it or not. And re-use the replaced batteries in some kind of a home appliance or power station buffer - they have enough projects where they participate, right? This would have given them ENORMOUS opportunity to show how they care, and also how they handle old battery packs.
But if you ask me, they’re going to do nothing about it. And I own a Tesla and still saying this.
My MS is EXACTLY same age as Millenium Falcon with original battery and the car is suffering from the same issue. I tried to sue Tesla, but my lawyer recommended not to go ahead as Tesla confirmed to take ANY legal measure to fight the case! It might have take a several years long battle for an 8 years old car.
I still love the product. I would even have been willing to pay a small amount to upgrade to a 90 pack. But they did not even agree to this. So, this issue as well as their poor service now lead me to buy a Ford Mustang Mach e! I hate to be treated as a fool.
It's even worse on the 70D
Totally unacceptable behaviour from the other wise great company; Tesla
Really? I was looking into getting one, do you have any issues with yours?
@@InternetDude Ouch. That's just incredibly awful. Thanks for the warning, I'll be careful. You must've been very unlucky, but I don't want to be unlucky too, even if chances are low... And they don't seem to be.
But, to be honest, what's the alternative? I want a long-range EV that'll comfortably sit a family of 5, what are the options under 30,000€? It's Tesla or nothing!
The only alternative is waiting 3-4 years for some used Kia EV6s, VW ID.4s, etc., but that'll take a looong time. And I kinda need a car now.
Logic says "get a Prius V", but I wanted an EV - I have a Nissan Leaf for commuting, and I didn't want to burn another drop of gas... We're still early adopters sadly.
@@wojciechmuras553 There are some great prices to be had on older Model S, and mine has held up great. Depends on if you want to take it on road trips frequently. While my old S has free SuperCharging, my Model 3 LR has better range and charges amazingly fast, especially on the new 250 kW SuperChargers. If you are worried about a big repair on an old S, though, go for a 3, you won't regret it.
@@wojciechmuras553 my Tesla model S 70D from 2015 have been heavenly reduce in charging speed at the superchargers. Not what I was promised when I bought it - not at all. About double time for charging now - very bery annoying, but as long as you just charge at home is a very nice and recommendable car
Else it is an excellent car
@@StephenPace1 The 3 is sadly out of the question - no way I'm squeezing everything I need into a car this tiny...
Great that Batterygate is being highlighted like this Bjorn. Tesla marking their own homework to avoid paying out on battery warranty. You wait 3 owners, this is coming to you too.... Great that owners are taking it into their own hands and starting class actions about this in multiple countries, Range Gate and Battery Gate are both examples of Tesla playing fast and loose with OTA and changing what owners bought for the worse. OTA giveth and OTA taketh away.
the house always wins, heads they win, tails you lose! thanks for playing.
I have a red 2013 p85 exactly like millennium falcon with 81k miles. The battery broke at about 65k miles and I was given a refurbished 85kwh battery under warranty. Scared it will happen again as I am out of warranty. Also, I have seen a BIG reduction in Supercharging speeds. It’s all aimed I think to get people to buy new Teslas. I figure Elon has enough $ at this point so I’m keeping my free supercharging for life even if they reduce the rate of charging on purpose
@Dad Is Phat: The type of issue you had at 65k is exactly the reason why Tesla made this change. As Bjorn said, instances of S85 battery issues became significantly fewer once this change was made. I wouldn't worry about it and enjoy your free electrons on Elon.
you know its funny but maybe Mister Green is on to something. I have a p85 and next week, I am renting a Model Y long range for a trip from Turo.. only $66/day. and I get my mileage paid for by work so I actually make a little. I am waiting for a model Y delivery, but the Model S is still a great car when charged at home.
Does this only affect cars with free supercharging?
It is funny that a Tesla this old, is going down to the speeds of an off-the-lot Chevy Bolt.
Is the nerfing of charging speeds proportional to how much supercharging the pack has seen over its lifetime? Because it would make sense if packs that have been more supercharging and as a result likely more degradation would see a a bigger reduction in supercharging speeds to protect the packs.
The charging speed of old ionics was a lot slower than supercharging speeds of older Model S and X cars, so it would make sense they haven’t needed to slow the speeds.
And sure, VW and Polestar are being very receptive now because their EVs are new and they need to give a good impression to persuade people to buy them. Wait 6-8 years and see how receptive they are to early adopters having complaints. If VW‘s dieselgate history is anything to go by, I wouldn’t hold my breath (except around their diesels).
Unrelated too Supercharger use, at least in my case. I babied the battery and still got hit hard with the May 2019 OTA.
@@NZCUTR
That’s clearly less than ideal, but I guess the question is whether it was as large a cut as with batteries that have seen more supercharger use or less than that? If it’s a blanket cut across the board that does not differentiate, then it would raise questions of whether there are issues across all packs with that chemistry, and in turn the case for compensation or replacement of the pack under warranty would be better as it would speak to some structural issues.
@@kardy12 my understanding from (admittedly) anecdotal conversations with other owners is that it must be something chemistry/structural issue as there's no discernable pattern to Supercharger use it charge limits/cycles.
6:40 so the question is - was ist REALLY "badass tech" back then or was it just "state of the art" and Tesla pushed it to and beyond the limits to achieve this charging speed back then? This would be a plausible explanation why they have to reduce charging speed now to not completely wrack these batteries.
I am convinced that it is the latter - as always with Tesla, they use very similar tech as other manufacturers, but they go way beyond the limit in order to appear "special"
Same goes with the high acceleration, where after a few years drive trains started failing like crazy.
@@rogerstarkey5390 do you have any source for that? (genuinely interested)
VW gave rebate only for ID3 buyers that bought heat pump as a option. We who bought the whole car with heat pump as standard (nordic contries) with the same promise got nothing.