About a year ago I talked to a fellow socialist at my university and he talked about your podcast. When he told me that Hakim was part of it I immediately shut down the conversation, because of "tankies bad". I'm so sorry dude. I was such a stupid vaushite back then :/
Everybody commit mistakes, Imagine, I was thinking Capitalism isn't that bad or even somewhat good back in high school. The important thing is to analyze, understand, informe and change direction according with the new knowledge.
I'm so glad I dodged that bullet I remember a time when I would have been susceptible to his rhetoric. I credit EJ and Luna for raising me up as a baby leftist to the point where I can actually start to grasp the dialectical materialist worldview
As a baby leftist, the discussion on ~authoritarianism~ is incredibly elucidating!! Also, the emphasis on how we forget online leftist spaces are not the real world is soso crucial for new leftists looking to rapidly educate themselves and study the best things/avoid the nebulous infighting etc. Amazing episode boys
the Internet is the real world, just a different part of it. Leftist factions have been infighting for generations, from severe geopolitical tensions between Vietnam and China, to the USSR using the NKVD to assassinate unsympathetic communists in the Spanish Civil war there isn't and has never been anything approaching left unity
I’m always sceptical when groups with certain ideologies put certain words in quotation marks in an attempt to dismiss them. Sorry, I know that’s vague. I mean when people say “fascist”, or “racist”, or “authoritarian”, or “tankie”. It’s a way to try to discredit the words because they actually apply and these people don’t want to be criticised.
people are called tankie in a way that does tread along the same path as old timey red scare propaganda, it is misapplied, etc. but it isn't a useless or meaningless term by any means
I didn't quite catch why we cannot get socialism through democratic means? My understanding was that a tankie was someone who, when the capitalists push back violently like they always do when we win progress with strikes or through elections, they take up arms to defend the gains from physical attacks instead of sitting down to peacefully acquiesce to their violence. Am I missing a step?
@@leninbilalexander6754 Define the probability p(A) of A happening knowing that A"Stalinists that hate Khruschev and the 20th conference of the CPSU are tankie"?"
Thank you gents so much for so effectively addressing some of my genuine concerns and doubts as a self-described "anti-authoritarian" lefty. If you guys ever do a top 5, 10, or whatever episode list, thus banger should make the cut!
Using "Tankie" Unironically= "I (am most likely a westerner) know very little about the world, but I have made 100,000,000,000 wrongheaded and ill founded assumptions about it and I am not ready to be confronted about those assumptions, so I will call the person challenging my beliefs a non-person with bad beliefs so I don't have to engage with them"
Marxism-Leninism is the only game in town. It didn't got the job done just once but multiple times: got a Revolution to seize State Power and really overthrow the local Bourgeoisie. Once upon a time I was just vaguely Left and started reading Lenin and came to the conclusion that lots of problems were already worked out and solved. That you don't have to re invent the wheel every time you start a movement. I think Marxism-Leninism will get the job done again in the future, and it will be in the Global South and the rest of the Imperial Periphery not the Western States, since seeing the conditions of the Left there in the Imperial core is really hopeless.
There is no left in the west. 3 boomers and their grandson in a communist party does not a left make. Neither do the 20-something anarchists living in a commune (which they rent), and who've had a three year long assembly on who's turn it is to do the dishes.
Indeed. If we don't take influence from revolutionary Marxists such as Lenin, Rosa Luxembourg, Trotsky, Mariateguí or Karl Liebknecht, we're not gonna have much hope of overthrowing capitalism!
I think this is a subtle admission that “Marxist”-Leninism doesn’t stand for worker control or emancipation. You said MLs were “successful” multiple times at seizing state power and overthrowing the bourgeoisie. You didn’t mention worker control, decommodification, abolition of wages, abolition of classes, abolition of the state… because you couldn’t. ML states didn’t do any of those things, they just replaced the old bourgeoisie. They did exactly what anarchist theory predicted they would do. But instead of being scientific and learning from history, they double down and become tankies. Sorry, you don’t get to dismiss the word just because it’s inconvenient for you.
@duderyandude9515 I don't think you're wrong, but I suspect that anarchists basically get a moral license to chastise everyone because anarchism is such an amazing ideal that nothing else really lives up to. And yeah in the case of Stalinism etc the Marxist-Leninist experiments didn't culminate in a radical restructuring or elimination of hierarchies. I need to learn more about anarchism because it does seem apparent that the well-known communisms of the 20th century did not do much to reinterpret or abolish the various categories of social life besides class (which you mentioned they did not succeed in abolishing either.) I guess it's just kinda hard for me to dip into anarchist theory because the people who advocate it seem to have such little concern for historical contingency.
43:07 This is the point that always sticks with me. It has nothing to do with specific policies, or the actions of socialist or communist movements, states, or governments, historically or modern-day. It's this axiom: "*Someone* is going to have authority, better it be Us." I can never shake the feeling that this is an assumption which gets unwittingly imported from liberal/capitalist schools of thought. I also can't help but question the degree that any authority backed by violence or threat of violence can genuinely be held to account by those subject to its authority.
I think when all is said and done about this debate on the “repressive” nature of actual socialism, it comes down to this: Socialist countries are winners and libs want them to be losers. Its as simple as that.
No? The most successful 'socialist' countries are all actually state capitalists (China, Vietnam, etc). Actual socialist countries, like Cuba, are doing far less well because of things like sanctions.
Exactly. The libs would love the countries that are not strong enough to defend themselves against the US Imperialist aggression, and eventually get destroyed. The Socialist countries that are standing and resisting the US Imperialist aggression are all authoritarian regimes. I mean, they don't give these sh!tliberals a reason to be sympathetic towards them.
I just figured tankie was term to point out reactionaries making leftist thought points but leading them towards more right wing and disastrous ends that wasn't necessary. But then again my leftist evolution needed to know this term, much like woke, could be a empty signifier regardless of how I intended meaning of it. Thank you for helping me evolve peeps.
I’ve been a socialist as far back as 2014. I knew I thought differently than everyone but I didn’t know how to explain what I believed. Over time as o read and listened I moved more and more left. Before I knew it I was a dirty commie 😂. But seriously this podcast and these guys made me a full Marxist and I just recently reached out to join the CPUSA Seattle. Hvala brate Yugopnik, you made me still have some faith in our people (the Yugos) ❤️
I have many friends of differing stances that all agree with the same principals and it is funny seeing them tear each other apart tbqh. It's like fight club but for people who unironically wear red scarves, read obscure philsophy, and/or listen to sovietwave.
What you guys have missed here is how similar "tankie" is to "woke". Libs use tankie in the same way conservatives use woke. Both are nebulous and ill-defined words for cartoon character enemies based around moral tribalist behaviour.
I've literally never seen or heard liberals ever use the term "tankie." If you're going to call anarchists and libertarian socialists "liberals," then don't be surprised when they call you a "tankie" because you have justified their contempt for Marxism-Leninism.
No liberal I've ever met has ever used the word "tankie." "Tankie" is a slur used be leftists (namely, anarchists and libertarian socialists) against other leftists (Marxist-Leninists and Maoists) for not behaving like leftists.
@@sentientnatalie I literally don't care about Vaush. I don't watch his content. I don't follow him on Twitter. I don't care what he has to say about anything. He is a non-entity. As for being a "westoid," yeah, I live in the U.S., and I suspect so do you. What of it? Where else should I live? I can't go back to the land of my birth. I can't speak my native language at a sophisticated-enough level to survive there long term. More to the point, having read history, I know that Marxism-Leninism cannot be the solution to our modern woes. I don't want a bunch of self-appointed "vanguards" telling me how to do leftism properly, and if I don't, I'll get shot. Marxism-Leninism is for control freaks with God complexes and unchecked egos, which, ironically enough, makes them the perfect allies of capitalists. As long as they convince enough people that's what _all_ leftists are, capitalists can rest assured they'll never lose their own power. Can we please stop trying to resurrect a transparently failed ideology and try something _new_ for once?
I'm agonostic when it comes to revolution vs reform. All that matters is that workers have power & ownership of their labor. Historically, revolution has worked better, but with drones and nukes a revolution seems far fetched.
@@michimatsch5862 It never worked, but have you considered that I will remain morally pure by taking a reformist stance, which is unrealistic, but still better than actually try to establish socialism through immoral (according to bourgeoisie morality) revolution, because capitalist supporters will say mean things to me and I actually have to put work and risk my life for the goal of establishing communism, then I could just have "rebellious" aesthetics instead!
Now, I don't see how drones and nukes make revolution impossible or even far fetched. It's not like revolution is going to be spread by invading other countries, it's going to start from within the nation itself. Nuking your own country just to stop the revolution doesn't seems like an impossible thing at least in theory, but we have to also consider that's going to make the side who used nukes essentially on it's own soil highly unpopular among the masses. That would be a dumb move to make, which would haunt capitalist regime for generations, if it doesn't somehow gets overthrown by socialist insurgency by that point.
First time, I hear that liberals use the word "tankie", to be honest (but not that much involved in the online scene, so not sure). But apart from that, I think the whole discussion is based on a "strawman". It is usually quite easy to attack liberals and right-wingers, when using derogatory terms about USSR etc. The more interesting thing would be a discussion about the criticism from a marxist perspective. Tankies, or more correctly Stalinists, as terms have a precise political meaning, connected to the degeneration of the Russian revolution, undemocratic practices, betrayals of countless revolutions around the world etc. So it is very strange for a marxist to actually try to argue in favour of such terms. There are also many other strawman arguments - for example, the guys named *arbitrarily* all revolutions "tankies", i.e. if you criticise the term, means you criticise these revolutions. They also use the argument that this is "eurocentrism" (which is very funny, since many conservatives use the same argument against marxism, who label as a "eurocentric" ideology)...
Lol I hope you are well read in the last one year. There is no such thing as Stalinism, but Marxism - Leninism. Stalin was a Marxist - Leninist. And he was the reason, Socialism had spread to a quarter of the planet. You have a western degenerative perspective, which you actually believe is Marxist perspective. You are probably a Trot, for all I know.
JT's observation that tankie calling is an evolution of cold war commie calling is an observation that in retrospect seems so obvious I'm not sure how I wasn't introduced to it before lol.
When you say that it makes it impossible not to realize that anyone who uses a word that means "Commie" as an insult is not a communist, not even with some "anarcho" prefix.
@@lordanzu8763 "Commie" was a slur used by capitalists, often against people who weren't even remotely leftist. "Tankie" is a slur used by leftists against other presumed leftists. JT should leave Twitter and talk to real people. He'll find instances of that word used in real life dropping dramatically because most people have no idea what that word means. They have no context for it because they haven't read history, especially not the events of 1956 in Hungary or 1968 in Czechoslovakia (the response to which is the origin of the word "tankie" in the first place), or how people might still justify aggressive foreign intervention in other countries in the name of leftism, even as people point out the hypocrisy of criticizing aggressive foreign intervention in other countries when capitalists do it but not when so-called "leftists" do it. Either we agree that aggressive foreign intervention in other countries is always bad and unnecessary, or we don't. We can't have it both ways.
Tankie is when you do research, and do more research you do, the tankier you are, and if you a real lot of research, you are Stalinist ! -Richard Wolf, probably
I came across a good amount of leftists who regurgitated fascist lies about LGBT people ("ideology", "illness", "groomer",...), idk what to call those assholes. Nazbol maybe?
I have worked in restaurants most of my life and can tell you how these places make money. The average person going to a buffet doesn't actually eat multiple plates of food.. They will eat 1-2 plates, then be done. These places only really put out cheap foods, so the cost of those 2 plates are extremely low. Some places have prime rib, which they will station a worker on, so people can't take full plates of it. Or they won't put anyone it and leave it uncut, and because people are uncomfortable with knives and stepping on a bussiness's practices, they won't even try to take any incase a worker is supposed to do it.. The amount of times I've seen prime rib sit untouched, because no one was there is sad/funny. Plus, labour is lower, because you are making large batches of food and not serving food to the order. Oh yeah. Alcohol. That is the big one. Note: When the prime rib is about to die (sit out too long so the quality drops too much) a staff will push it heavily, giving out multiple piece each.
I immediately assumed it was Vaush when Hakim mentioned it. That's the worst part. He's a notorious idiot at this point and his followers are the most toxic corner of the internet.
Funniest person I've ever seen called "Tankie" online was Jon Stewart. Which is hilariously sad, but also the context is pretty illuminating. It was said in response to him talking about how the US needs to chill and stop trying to escalate with China and that hey, having a bunch of military bases next door was an act of aggression. And I do think that, more than anything else, these days "Tankie" really does mean "you think the US doesn't have the divine authority to bomb and sanction whomever we please"
@@jackcade8790 Merely having a military base next door isn't an "act of aggression." Please don't dilute the term to mean anything you oppose (for the record, I _also_ oppose placing military bases close to antagonized countries). Please reserve such a term for things such as invading countries unprovoked and stealing their land or bombing cities to dust in retaliation for previous acts of aggression.
Wow, this episode was very well thought out and educational! Thank you for this podcast, habibis. I will now proceed to ignore all of it because y'all are Tankies 😌
@John Doe I took it as more about streamers that followed Vaush, including sharkzero30, xanderhal, etc. Serfs has done quite a bit of demsoc cringe, but I guess I have a more positive opinion of ThoughtSlime. I don't know what the latter did really.
When people talk about the homeless or poor or anyone who isn't extremely wealthy and set for life, and call them "lazy," it really rubs me the wrong way. Watching a couple or channels about mental health and the cleanliness of spaces and hoarding, one of them expressed this sentiment really well. In response to those talking about how people "let their homes get so bad" and chalk it up to "laziness," she said it was incredibly dismissive of the mental issues that people face that lead to these behaviors. Those who are homeless often just have so much stacked against them that just living feels laborious enough. The systems have failed them. If they were able to work and did, it barely provided a buffer. Working didn't save them. Doing the right things didn't save them. They get sick, and insurance doesn't save them from losing everything to medical debt and disability. How is anyone surprized that so many lose hope and just try to survive from day to day? To simply call these things "laziness" is an awful, cruel oversimplification. It is, in a word, lazy.
Honestly i was surprised to see Hakim was part of the show at the beginning Most ML content creators are outcasts. I remember when most of lefttube made a rule to never platform "tankies" even in debates 😂
I experimented with calling those pro-war propagandists "NATO tankies" for a bit, hoping it would make something click in the less-fanatical readers' brains at least.
@@smokyondagrass2353 that's not the same thing at all? This is more like Vietnam, only the Russians take the place of the USA/France. Or to use your example, Ukraine is Iraq (bullshit made up casus belli used to justify imperialism) while russia is the USA. ie, the ethical position is to support the anti colonialist resistance.
Avarage Ceausescu "Communism" in easy steps: 1. Get an IMF loan 2. Get an IMF loan 3. Get an IMF loan 4. Get an IMF loan 5. Implement austerity 6. Get shot
@@chargyisonline7790 Interesting! Wow, what a bastard lol. Telling his people he paid it off but the American "international" institutions knowing otherwise.
@@bacicinvatteneaca Doesn't have the same kind of resonance, and doesn't make the same kind of suggestion that they're a supporter of violence - "dronie" sounds like you might be trying to say they're being piloted around like a drone and not thinking for themselves. I prefer "NATO tankie".
Fun fact: Giorgio Napolitano, President of the Italian Republic between 2006 and 2015, used to be a Communist, and he supported the intervention in Hungary in 1956. Italy has had a tankie President.
@@nektariosorfanoudakis2270 Unfortunately he wasn't a tankie when he became President anymore, and the President is mostly ceremonial in Italy, but at least we came close.
Giorgio Napolitano is well known for having been part of the "Migliorista" faction within the PCI, i.e. the centre-right reformist area. He has always been an opportunistic a-hole. After 1989 he was one of the most vocal supporters of an abrupt turn to the centre (i.e. right), was in favour of austerity, privatizations and cuts to both welfare and pensions in order to join EU. He also was one of the most prominent centre-left politicians who tried to legitimize the neofascist of MSI first and then Alleanza Nazionale (the forerunners of Meloni's Brothers of Italy), in the name of a national "pacification", paving the way to a rewriting of history which led to a widespread demonization of communist partisans and to a rehabilitation of Salò's fascists. That's why he was voted President by the Parliament. A true tankie would have never allowed to become president. Twice, at that, which was also borderline, constitution-wise.
He was from the right wing of the Italian communist party which itself wasn't very radical at that point, moreover he is one of the main planner of the Italian bombing of Serbia in the 90' as a minister.
I think this tankie tag only recently started being used by lefties to describe people in Kerala, Vietnam, PRC, Cuba, Africa, et cetera. That's because those euro-trots that use the word simply ignore those people & would rather align with the security complex & elites in their own countries than take the lead from the people in the global south. I think that you might be describing the more online internet more recent usage of this term though. good stuff
Tankie has been in use since the 1950s (when the USSR crushed the attempted hungarian revolution), its just normal people wouldn't have heard of it since it was mostly an anarchist term. Its use when it comes to countries in the global south has more to do w/ 'socialist' countries there tending to be authoritarian (ie, using the same tactics we would rightfully condemn fascists for, but is somehow okay when enemies of the west do it) Related, its amusing you think anarchists want to side with their own elites.
The idealism of many of our anarchist "comrades" really irritates me. The only serious anarchists in North America are doing direct action against Neo Nazis, and/or out busting their asses helping the homeless, which I know is hard work from first hand experience.
@@NoMastersNoMistress If you need to surround comrades in quotes, then you just might as well say, "I can't wait to shoot all of them in back as soon as the revolution is over." Because that's what Marxist-Leninists have always done. It's not surprising at all that anarchists are forever suspicious of MLs and unwilling to give them any solidarity anymore. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on _you._
@@Rompelstaump I don't remember what comment I made that had you responding to me, as I can no longer see it. 😅 But, to answer your question, yes: communists, specifically of the Marxist-Leninist persuasion (every current and former state whose explicitly-stated goal has been socialism or communism were ultimately based on Marxist-Leninist ideals, regardless of deviations), and anarchists have not been on good terms for a long time, and I don't see relations between these two warming any time soon. Anarchists are fundamentally opposed to the state itself, which they view as the greatest tool of capitalism, meaning that terms like "worker's states" or "actually existing socialist states" are considered contradictory since how can the greatest tool of capitalism be used to destroy capitalism? Marxist-Leninists believe that a revolution requires a "vanguard" of people who are especially knowledgeable in theory leading the charge and that the state will ultimately "wither away" with enough time and dedication toward realizing socialism. I'm being intentionally very broad and generalizing so that you don't get too mired in the weeds of leftist theory.
this was rather cathartic for me. hearing sentiments that i know are normal to have assures me that i'm not the insane one... not quite, but that's one way to put it.
In Spain at least, a "red fash" is what we call "rojipardo" (mix of red and brown) and we have some of that. Roberto Vaquero and his organization/cult (because it is a cult, some ex-members have said as much) called "Frente Obrero" (Labour Front) is basically that. A socialchauvinist obsessed with Spain's "unity" and hypercentralist, a social reactionary that spouses the worst kind of "anti woke" rethoric,etc. In the US I've heard about Caleb Mauping and people like Peter Coffin, a somewhat "leftist" youtuber that ended up moving towards those kind of positions.
But how "red" is he for example though? I tend to notice, that when people describe some red fash type, it's either simply in bad faith someone whos red (maybe with a few controversial opinions/bad optics/populist) or someone whos just a fash. With the latter sometimes they paint themselves with the thinnest coat of red paint - but if they get into the reach of any sort of state power, or even if you just take a deeper look at their line of thinking and their rhetoric, the paint immediately falls of.
@@pinotpinotpinot they are basically traditional socialdemocrats that miss the "golden times" of welfare state, that also love Spanish nationalism, hate minorities, have the same discourse regarding immigration as the right, etc.
Calling "Tankie" the (less) right-wing, radlib equivalent of "woke" is so fucking obvious I'm stunned I didn't notice that before now. It also makes me recall some cringe that I would spout a year or two back when I was still in my socdem-pretending-to-be-a-leftist phase.
You said tankie and i remembered a funny thing that happened last week; i was comming back from the bathroom when i heard the TV saying "from Berlin to Warsaw with only one tank" in the kitchen and i ran into it yelling "wtf!, not this again!" and it was a commercial for a new car. I laughted a solid minute after i calmed down.
The current use of the word 'Tankie' is just another example of liberalism taking a term that may be useful in a particular circumstance and rendering it meaningless. Little more than "Here is a thing I don't like. Here is a term that I understand to be a 'bad' thing. Therefore, all things I don't like are are now this Bad Thing regardless of the actual definition, history, or any semblance of nuance."
@@n0tthemessiah I have still yet to come across a single liberal ever use this term in real life and in all seriousness. Can we please stop pretending tankie is a liberal word? It's not.
@@miro.georgiev97 Oh, wow. I'm really embarrassed. I'll amend my statement to be more accurate. Sorry, I didn't realize your personal experience *and doubts* were the sole source of truth.
As a newly radicalized, anti-authoritarian socialist myself, this episode was eye-opening for me, particularly toward the end. I had been grappling with all past socialist revolutions being "authoritarian" to some degree, with a single party in power, a strong state suppressing opposition. I knew that capitalism is also authoritarian for the vast majority despite insisting otherwise, but surely replacing that with another form is not ideal, even if better than capitalism. Are we any better when we have China? While I still disagree with the approach, I can understand why now. The language used is deceptively opaque to the details: who is the authority, and who is being oppressed? Capitalism places capitalists in authority, while the majority are forced to work under the terms they set. A socialist movement is "authoritarian" in the sense that the majority impose their will on the minority capitalists. The term, by design, conflates the two. What JT said stuck with me, "'If we do this that makes us no better than them', no, you _are_ better than them simply for the fact that your beliefs are for the good of the vast majority of people and opposed to the interests of the people that would keep the vast majority down" Love this. Also, bet Hakim? Perhaps I will :P Thanks for this podcast guys! :)
around the ten minute mark, talking about buffets and how they profit. A local buffet got closed down due to a health inspection. But not only that, they got busted for human trafficking. They would basically house illegal immigrants and even transport them to the buffet themselves. And then they would drive them back in the big van they had. It was essentially slave labor.
My first job was digitizing the paperwork of one little title insurance agency. It was unending and that's just one of the many branches of bureaucracy you have to interact with to do something as basic as buying a home. Capitalism is so intractably bureaucratic.
"What is Kosovo"? Let me take a wild guess! Was his first initial "V", his last initial "H" with "AUS" in the middle, by any chance was this livestreamer? 🤣🤣
So on the flip side of "The spanish anarchists had to resort to authoritarianism to survive" The soviets when starting out tried to abolish money (sort of) and other general anarco socialist ideas. People like to fall into this "no true communist" kinda trap of saying x or y country wasn't socialist enough. Fact is organizing people is hard and sometimes you have to make a government to do that.
I use commie in my name, but it is a joke. It doesn't bother me when I am insulted for being a communist, so it is fine to me. I also am not very creative when it comes to names..
Maybe we ought to take up making model tanks. Or trains! Of course we're tankists, let me tell you about the perks of the Type 69, other than the name of course...
I dream of Hakim Hakim, Hakim, oh Hakim Your voice fills me with steam Steam that fills from emotional bowels To intellectual brows I wonder what it’s like to be in your esteem But alas I can only dream For your face does not show through the screen Only a blank Lin-een for Hak-eem Are you smooth are you rough For me to guess is not enough I must hold you so I can show you How much my eyes yearn to know you Will I ever know your head’s fluf, is it more than a tuft? I burn inside, for you I know But never will I see if you stand high or low Yugopnik is the same Yet his drawn face satisfies my aim Of Chapo, JT, Blowback, or Parenti Hakim was my first and I love him plenty Hakim, Hakim, oh Hakim Will I ever know your face? :’(
Tbh I don't care if you're a "tankie" cause it's thrown around so much that I don't even know what it means anymore. What really matters is your personal ideological beliefs.
This episode has made me finally feel comfortable to adopt the title ML and not feel shame for it because of the damn liberals in the walls. Thanks!! ^^
@@YenRestherac I remember watching one of the episodes where they talked about it's development and played the entire thing. I am not sure of the title though.
The term I see people use for you guys is stalinists, also a lot of tankie stuff but the first one seems to be worse and people are receptive to vuvuzela 100gillion no iphone discourse.
The closest i can think to 'red fash' are these aus nationalist/ lyndon larouche-esque? parties which thinking of the man ironically wasnt the dude identifying as a trotskyist least at the begining? :p
In that motherfucker sure liked to mash a lot of terms together, but i could a bit of a bias, or like taking advantage of the fact that red scare seemed to have broken everyone's brains where it can take so much fucking work to have even a basic understanding of what Marxism or what a dialectic even is. This is the 'glory' of ths west -.-
I don't even think it's fair to call Laroucheites left at all. It's weird right populist almost q-anon type shit. There might be some left overlap with certain anti war stances, but not much more than that.
This was one of your best episodes. I think finding ways to deal with the absurd language used by the pseudo-leftists is as important as any topic because its disheartening to be talked to with such infantile talking points. And hakim i think the term you were looking for was a thought terminating cliche. That's what tankie is, or nazbol, etc. Its basically liberals finding a way to call socialists and communists the n-word and not be too obvious.
About a year ago I talked to a fellow socialist at my university and he talked about your podcast. When he told me that Hakim was part of it I immediately shut down the conversation, because of "tankies bad". I'm so sorry dude. I was such a stupid vaushite back then :/
No need to apologize habibi, I'm glad you gave us a listen with an open mind!
We love your growth
Ehhhh everyone has their stupid moments it's fine.
Everybody commit mistakes, Imagine, I was thinking Capitalism isn't that bad or even somewhat good back in high school. The important thing is to analyze, understand, informe and change direction according with the new knowledge.
I'm so glad I dodged that bullet I remember a time when I would have been susceptible to his rhetoric. I credit EJ and Luna for raising me up as a baby leftist to the point where I can actually start to grasp the dialectical materialist worldview
As a baby leftist, the discussion on ~authoritarianism~ is incredibly elucidating!! Also, the emphasis on how we forget online leftist spaces are not the real world is soso crucial for new leftists looking to rapidly educate themselves and study the best things/avoid the nebulous infighting etc.
Amazing episode boys
the Internet is the real world, just a different part of it. Leftist factions have been infighting for generations, from severe geopolitical tensions between Vietnam and China, to the USSR using the NKVD to assassinate unsympathetic communists in the Spanish Civil war
there isn't and has never been anything approaching left unity
I’m always sceptical when groups with certain ideologies put certain words in quotation marks in an attempt to dismiss them. Sorry, I know that’s vague. I mean when people say “fascist”, or “racist”, or “authoritarian”, or “tankie”. It’s a way to try to discredit the words because they actually apply and these people don’t want to be criticised.
people are called tankie in a way that does tread along the same path as old timey red scare propaganda, it is misapplied, etc. but it isn't a useless or meaningless term by any means
I didn't quite catch why we cannot get socialism through democratic means?
My understanding was that a tankie was someone who, when the capitalists push back violently like they always do when we win progress with strikes or through elections, they take up arms to defend the gains from physical attacks instead of sitting down to peacefully acquiesce to their violence.
Am I missing a step?
we need LESS tankie DISCOURSE and MORE tankie INTERCOURSE 💥💯
Ohhhh my 😳
HELL YEAH🗣️🗣️‼️
Tankie dating sevice?
@@GabrielHellborne quick, someone make tankie tinder
@@mooshrum6122 i have a suspicion its going to be infested with fed catfishes
I am a tankie, come fight me.
Are "Stalinists" that hate Khruschev and the 20th conference of the CPSU technically "tankies"? Asking for a potential friend!🤔😉
@@nektariosorfanoudakis2270 Yes and No. I will not elaborate.
@@leninbilalexander6754 Define the probability p(A) of A happening knowing that A"Stalinists that hate Khruschev and the 20th conference of the CPSU are tankie"?"
Thank u girls und panzer for all the tankie jokes🙏
Thank you gents so much for so effectively addressing some of my genuine concerns and doubts as a self-described "anti-authoritarian" lefty. If you guys ever do a top 5, 10, or whatever episode list, thus banger should make the cut!
Using "Tankie" Unironically= "I (am most likely a westerner) know very little about the world, but I have made 100,000,000,000 wrongheaded and ill founded assumptions about it and I am not ready to be confronted about those assumptions, so I will call the person challenging my beliefs a non-person with bad beliefs so I don't have to engage with them"
Awesomely put lol.
gonna have to download this one for the commute.
WTF this is authoritarianism thick tank won the pole patreon for the thumbnail 😂
Marxism-Leninism is the only game in town. It didn't got the job done just once but multiple times: got a Revolution to seize State Power and really overthrow the local Bourgeoisie.
Once upon a time I was just vaguely Left and started reading Lenin and came to the conclusion that lots of problems were already worked out and solved. That you don't have to re invent the wheel every time you start a movement.
I think Marxism-Leninism will get the job done again in the future, and it will be in the Global South and the rest of the Imperial Periphery not the Western States, since seeing the conditions of the Left there in the Imperial core is really hopeless.
There is no left in the west. 3 boomers and their grandson in a communist party does not a left make. Neither do the 20-something anarchists living in a commune (which they rent), and who've had a three year long assembly on who's turn it is to do the dishes.
Indeed. If we don't take influence from revolutionary Marxists such as Lenin, Rosa Luxembourg, Trotsky, Mariateguí or Karl Liebknecht, we're not gonna have much hope of overthrowing capitalism!
Any org you think ML's should join?
I think this is a subtle admission that “Marxist”-Leninism doesn’t stand for worker control or emancipation. You said MLs were “successful” multiple times at seizing state power and overthrowing the bourgeoisie. You didn’t mention worker control, decommodification, abolition of wages, abolition of classes, abolition of the state… because you couldn’t. ML states didn’t do any of those things, they just replaced the old bourgeoisie. They did exactly what anarchist theory predicted they would do. But instead of being scientific and learning from history, they double down and become tankies. Sorry, you don’t get to dismiss the word just because it’s inconvenient for you.
@duderyandude9515 I don't think you're wrong, but I suspect that anarchists basically get a moral license to chastise everyone because anarchism is such an amazing ideal that nothing else really lives up to. And yeah in the case of Stalinism etc the Marxist-Leninist experiments didn't culminate in a radical restructuring or elimination of hierarchies. I need to learn more about anarchism because it does seem apparent that the well-known communisms of the 20th century did not do much to reinterpret or abolish the various categories of social life besides class (which you mentioned they did not succeed in abolishing either.) I guess it's just kinda hard for me to dip into anarchist theory because the people who advocate it seem to have such little concern for historical contingency.
43:07 This is the point that always sticks with me. It has nothing to do with specific policies, or the actions of socialist or communist movements, states, or governments, historically or modern-day. It's this axiom: "*Someone* is going to have authority, better it be Us." I can never shake the feeling that this is an assumption which gets unwittingly imported from liberal/capitalist schools of thought.
I also can't help but question the degree that any authority backed by violence or threat of violence can genuinely be held to account by those subject to its authority.
I think when all is said and done about this debate on the “repressive” nature of actual socialism, it comes down to this:
Socialist countries are winners and libs want them to be losers.
Its as simple as that.
Delusional
No? The most successful 'socialist' countries are all actually state capitalists (China, Vietnam, etc).
Actual socialist countries, like Cuba, are doing far less well because of things like sanctions.
@@jeromeace1282 😂😂 You are exactly the libs he was talking about.
Exactly. The libs would love the countries that are not strong enough to defend themselves against the US Imperialist aggression, and eventually get destroyed. The Socialist countries that are standing and resisting the US Imperialist aggression are all authoritarian regimes. I mean, they don't give these sh!tliberals a reason to be sympathetic towards them.
@@morningstararun6278 to be clear, what is happening to Cuba is unfair. But China isn't Socialist
Usually I can’t do podcasts but this time I listened all the way through thanks to Hakim going off on us. Thanks for the episode. :D
Commenting for the algorithm. You guys are great!
I just figured tankie was term to point out reactionaries making leftist thought points but leading them towards more right wing and disastrous ends that wasn't necessary. But then again my leftist evolution needed to know this term, much like woke, could be a empty signifier regardless of how I intended meaning of it. Thank you for helping me evolve peeps.
Banger episode, great ending too
28:48 you guy must have bad empanada on the podcast!
Tbf he's kinda a brand risk lol
Dankies
6:40 Yugopnik prime candidate for liking femboys. he just like me fr fr
We do know he's gung-ho for hung hos
I’ve been a socialist as far back as 2014. I knew I thought differently than everyone but I didn’t know how to explain what I believed. Over time as o read and listened I moved more and more left. Before I knew it I was a dirty commie 😂. But seriously this podcast and these guys made me a full Marxist and I just recently reached out to join the CPUSA Seattle. Hvala brate Yugopnik, you made me still have some faith in our people (the Yugos) ❤️
Is cpusa ML? Don't they support the Democratic Party?
@@Zayden. its a huge party, even if the party as a whole might support democratics its still filled with actual communists.
Bosnia & Kosovo = Vaush
I propose we as a community (& we are a community) refer to Vaush as Bosnia & Kosovo and never refer to him as Vaush again
I have many friends of differing stances that all agree with the same principals and it is funny seeing them tear each other apart tbqh. It's like fight club but for people who unironically wear red scarves, read obscure philsophy, and/or listen to sovietwave.
What you guys have missed here is how similar "tankie" is to "woke". Libs use tankie in the same way conservatives use woke. Both are nebulous and ill-defined words for cartoon character enemies based around moral tribalist behaviour.
Very good observation
I've literally never seen or heard liberals ever use the term "tankie." If you're going to call anarchists and libertarian socialists "liberals," then don't be surprised when they call you a "tankie" because you have justified their contempt for Marxism-Leninism.
No liberal I've ever met has ever used the word "tankie." "Tankie" is a slur used be leftists (namely, anarchists and libertarian socialists) against other leftists (Marxist-Leninists and Maoists) for not behaving like leftists.
@@miro.georgiev97 Voosh is a liberal, and so are your kind of westoid "leftists", I suspect.
@@sentientnatalie I literally don't care about Vaush. I don't watch his content. I don't follow him on Twitter. I don't care what he has to say about anything. He is a non-entity. As for being a "westoid," yeah, I live in the U.S., and I suspect so do you. What of it? Where else should I live? I can't go back to the land of my birth. I can't speak my native language at a sophisticated-enough level to survive there long term. More to the point, having read history, I know that Marxism-Leninism cannot be the solution to our modern woes. I don't want a bunch of self-appointed "vanguards" telling me how to do leftism properly, and if I don't, I'll get shot. Marxism-Leninism is for control freaks with God complexes and unchecked egos, which, ironically enough, makes them the perfect allies of capitalists. As long as they convince enough people that's what _all_ leftists are, capitalists can rest assured they'll never lose their own power. Can we please stop trying to resurrect a transparently failed ideology and try something _new_ for once?
I'm agonostic when it comes to revolution vs reform. All that matters is that workers have power & ownership of their labor. Historically, revolution has worked better, but with drones and nukes a revolution seems far fetched.
Reform doesn't work though.
Like, did it ever work?
@@michimatsch5862 It never worked, but have you considered that I will remain morally pure by taking a reformist stance, which is unrealistic, but still better than actually try to establish socialism through immoral (according to bourgeoisie morality) revolution, because capitalist supporters will say mean things to me and I actually have to put work and risk my life for the goal of establishing communism, then I could just have "rebellious" aesthetics instead!
Now, I don't see how drones and nukes make revolution impossible or even far fetched. It's not like revolution is going to be spread by invading other countries, it's going to start from within the nation itself. Nuking your own country just to stop the revolution doesn't seems like an impossible thing at least in theory, but we have to also consider that's going to make the side who used nukes essentially on it's own soil highly unpopular among the masses. That would be a dumb move to make, which would haunt capitalist regime for generations, if it doesn't somehow gets overthrown by socialist insurgency by that point.
But like fucking Alexei Sayle im pretty sure would be unironocally a tankie or some shit :p
5:08 JT SAYS SUS ((9(99((REAL!!!11!!11 (CAUGHT ON CAMRA0))0)
Algo
First time, I hear that liberals use the word "tankie", to be honest (but not that much involved in the online scene, so not sure). But apart from that, I think the whole discussion is based on a "strawman". It is usually quite easy to attack liberals and right-wingers, when using derogatory terms about USSR etc. The more interesting thing would be a discussion about the criticism from a marxist perspective.
Tankies, or more correctly Stalinists, as terms have a precise political meaning, connected to the degeneration of the Russian revolution, undemocratic practices, betrayals of countless revolutions around the world etc. So it is very strange for a marxist to actually try to argue in favour of such terms.
There are also many other strawman arguments - for example, the guys named *arbitrarily* all revolutions "tankies", i.e. if you criticise the term, means you criticise these revolutions. They also use the argument that this is "eurocentrism" (which is very funny, since many conservatives use the same argument against marxism, who label as a "eurocentric" ideology)...
Stalinism is just Marxist Leninism tho
Lol I hope you are well read in the last one year. There is no such thing as Stalinism, but Marxism - Leninism. Stalin was a Marxist - Leninist. And he was the reason, Socialism had spread to a quarter of the planet. You have a western degenerative perspective, which you actually believe is Marxist perspective. You are probably a Trot, for all I know.
JT's observation that tankie calling is an evolution of cold war commie calling is an observation that in retrospect seems so obvious I'm not sure how I wasn't introduced to it before lol.
When you say that it makes it impossible not to realize that anyone who uses a word that means "Commie" as an insult is not a communist, not even with some "anarcho" prefix.
@@lordanzu8763 "Commie" was a slur used by capitalists, often against people who weren't even remotely leftist. "Tankie" is a slur used by leftists against other presumed leftists. JT should leave Twitter and talk to real people. He'll find instances of that word used in real life dropping dramatically because most people have no idea what that word means. They have no context for it because they haven't read history, especially not the events of 1956 in Hungary or 1968 in Czechoslovakia (the response to which is the origin of the word "tankie" in the first place), or how people might still justify aggressive foreign intervention in other countries in the name of leftism, even as people point out the hypocrisy of criticizing aggressive foreign intervention in other countries when capitalists do it but not when so-called "leftists" do it. Either we agree that aggressive foreign intervention in other countries is always bad and unnecessary, or we don't. We can't have it both ways.
Hakim was cookin' this episode!
Tankie is when you do research, and do more research you do, the tankier you are, and if you a real lot of research, you are Stalinist !
-Richard Wolf, probably
don't read, it's gay and you'll turn into a tankie!!!
'If you have more than one sentence to say about any given topic, you're a "tankie"' - BadEmpanada.
Forgive my ignorance but who's Richard Wolf?
@@CulturalMarxist4985 a marxist college professor, kinda like parenti.
Isn't Richard Wolf a tankie?
Why would he call someone else a tankie? Is it a term of endearment among tankies?
A tankie is anyone vaguely to the left of me who i don't like!
I came across a good amount of leftists who regurgitated fascist lies about LGBT people ("ideology", "illness", "groomer",...), idk what to call those assholes. Nazbol maybe?
It is a white people word that can be applied to every situation
You're a goddamn tankie!
Basically every liberal who wants a nuclear war over Ukraine and it's fascist Government
@@CripplingDuality It's yakubian tricknology.
I have worked in restaurants most of my life and can tell you how these places make money. The average person going to a buffet doesn't actually eat multiple plates of food.. They will eat 1-2 plates, then be done. These places only really put out cheap foods, so the cost of those 2 plates are extremely low. Some places have prime rib, which they will station a worker on, so people can't take full plates of it. Or they won't put anyone it and leave it uncut, and because people are uncomfortable with knives and stepping on a bussiness's practices, they won't even try to take any incase a worker is supposed to do it.. The amount of times I've seen prime rib sit untouched, because no one was there is sad/funny.
Plus, labour is lower, because you are making large batches of food and not serving food to the order.
Oh yeah. Alcohol. That is the big one.
Note: When the prime rib is about to die (sit out too long so the quality drops too much) a staff will push it heavily, giving out multiple piece each.
Even I've been called a tankie before and I just post songs! (Even anarchist ones!) It really is a useless word.
You post some bangers
@@redfront6707I agree with your
Tankie is when you say anything positive about the Soviet Union or China
omg it's getchan
I listen to the songs you post all the time! Gratitudes comrade
"Kosovo and Bosnia, what's that? Are these real countries?"
-Vaush
So true 😂😂😂
I immediately assumed it was Vaush when Hakim mentioned it. That's the worst part. He's a notorious idiot at this point and his followers are the most toxic corner of the internet.
WAIT NO WAY: THAT WAS VAUSH?!? I HAD THE FEELING 😂
when you are so left and liberal that you become a serbian ethnonationalist
Funniest person I've ever seen called "Tankie" online was Jon Stewart. Which is hilariously sad, but also the context is pretty illuminating. It was said in response to him talking about how the US needs to chill and stop trying to escalate with China and that hey, having a bunch of military bases next door was an act of aggression.
And I do think that, more than anything else, these days "Tankie" really does mean "you think the US doesn't have the divine authority to bomb and sanction whomever we please"
Jon is a CIA asset now actually. He said some state department/cia talking points about a certain ethnic minority in china.
@@jackcade8790 Merely having a military base next door isn't an "act of aggression." Please don't dilute the term to mean anything you oppose (for the record, I _also_ oppose placing military bases close to antagonized countries). Please reserve such a term for things such as invading countries unprovoked and stealing their land or bombing cities to dust in retaliation for previous acts of aggression.
28:10 My bet is on Vaush the beacon of Socialist wisdom.
Yeap. I can verify.
@@thodkats beat me to the punch.
Who is Vaush, you mean Bosnia & Kosovo? B&K
But why though? I watched the debate that he had with Hakim and they seemed to agree on everything, why are they so opposed to one another?
@@cesarwitha_t because Vaush knows how to steer conversations so that he doesn't look bad
Wow, this episode was very well thought out and educational! Thank you for this podcast, habibis.
I will now proceed to ignore all of it because y'all are Tankies 😌
Underrated comments. You had me in stitches XD
This whole episode is about Vaush
Especially the first part 👀
One can never dunk enough on Vaush
VDS
Not just vaush, but also people like the smurfs and slime thought.
What is it about Canadians that makes them so unbearable.
@John Doe I took it as more about streamers that followed Vaush, including sharkzero30, xanderhal, etc. Serfs has done quite a bit of demsoc cringe, but I guess I have a more positive opinion of ThoughtSlime. I don't know what the latter did really.
When people talk about the homeless or poor or anyone who isn't extremely wealthy and set for life, and call them "lazy," it really rubs me the wrong way. Watching a couple or channels about mental health and the cleanliness of spaces and hoarding, one of them expressed this sentiment really well. In response to those talking about how people "let their homes get so bad" and chalk it up to "laziness," she said it was incredibly dismissive of the mental issues that people face that lead to these behaviors. Those who are homeless often just have so much stacked against them that just living feels laborious enough. The systems have failed them. If they were able to work and did, it barely provided a buffer. Working didn't save them. Doing the right things didn't save them. They get sick, and insurance doesn't save them from losing everything to medical debt and disability. How is anyone surprized that so many lose hope and just try to survive from day to day? To simply call these things "laziness" is an awful, cruel oversimplification. It is, in a word, lazy.
The real authoritarianism was the friends we made along the way ✨
Honestly i was surprised to see Hakim was part of the show at the beginning Most ML content creators are outcasts. I remember when most of lefttube made a rule to never platform "tankies" even in debates 😂
It's wild that tankie's stretched so far now. Nowadays, ANTI-WAR people are "tankies"!
But war has the best tanks! What's a tankie without a tank or 10?!
Because they automatically think anti-war equals pro-Russia or pro-whatever thing they percieve as bad.
@@PurpleSnakeit's like during the run up to the Iraq war everyone who was against the invasion was called saddamists
I experimented with calling those pro-war propagandists "NATO tankies" for a bit, hoping it would make something click in the less-fanatical readers' brains at least.
@@smokyondagrass2353 that's not the same thing at all? This is more like Vietnam, only the Russians take the place of the USA/France. Or to use your example, Ukraine is Iraq (bullshit made up casus belli used to justify imperialism) while russia is the USA.
ie, the ethical position is to support the anti colonialist resistance.
Avarage Ceausescu "Communism" in easy steps:
1. Get an IMF loan
2. Get an IMF loan
3. Get an IMF loan
4. Get an IMF loan
5. Implement austerity
6. Get shot
Add to 6 "once the government pays off the above loans".
@@sentientnatalie (he only declared to have payed them off, he actually had to pay another 200.000)
@@chargyisonline7790 Interesting! Wow, what a bastard lol. Telling his people he paid it off but the American "international" institutions knowing otherwise.
@@sentientnatalie He also shot workers who were striking lol
@@chargyisonline7790 Oh yes lol, there he is, America's "communist"! How right he was to be called that...
I propose we redefine the term to mean any liberal or conservative NATO supporter or apologist, and start really triggering the opposition. Lol
We have "dronie" for that
@@bacicinvatteneaca Doesn't have the same kind of resonance, and doesn't make the same kind of suggestion that they're a supporter of violence - "dronie" sounds like you might be trying to say they're being piloted around like a drone and not thinking for themselves. I prefer "NATO tankie".
Fun fact: Giorgio Napolitano, President of the Italian Republic between 2006 and 2015, used to be a Communist, and he supported the intervention in Hungary in 1956. Italy has had a tankie President.
This is what happens to a country when it invents Fascism, it ends up with Tankies as presidents. 😂👍
@@nektariosorfanoudakis2270 Unfortunately he wasn't a tankie when he became President anymore, and the President is mostly ceremonial in Italy, but at least we came close.
Giorgio Napolitano is well known for having been part of the "Migliorista" faction within the PCI, i.e. the centre-right reformist area.
He has always been an opportunistic a-hole.
After 1989 he was one of the most vocal supporters of an abrupt turn to the centre (i.e. right), was in favour of austerity, privatizations and cuts to both welfare and pensions in order to join EU. He also was one of the most prominent centre-left politicians who tried to legitimize the neofascist of MSI first and then Alleanza Nazionale (the forerunners of Meloni's Brothers of Italy), in the name of a national "pacification", paving the way to a rewriting of history which led to a widespread demonization of communist partisans and to a rehabilitation of Salò's fascists.
That's why he was voted President by the Parliament. A true tankie would have never allowed to become president.
Twice, at that, which was also borderline, constitution-wise.
@@mauriziobruni5728 That's also true, but in 1956 he supported Soviet intervention in Hungary. This, technically speaking, makes him a tankie.
He was from the right wing of the Italian communist party which itself wasn't very radical at that point, moreover he is one of the main planner of the Italian bombing of Serbia in the 90' as a minister.
I think this tankie tag only recently started being used by lefties to describe people in Kerala, Vietnam, PRC, Cuba, Africa, et cetera. That's because those euro-trots that use the word simply ignore those people & would rather align with the security complex & elites in their own countries than take the lead from the people in the global south.
I think that you might be describing the more online internet more recent usage of this term though. good stuff
They said we sacrificed too many lives to achieved so little. Yet the Western "left" have sacrificed nothing and achieved nothing.
Yes, 'tankie' and 'trot' essentially just mean revolutionary Marxists. And yes, Trotskyists are such legends! True comrades
Tankie has been in use since the 1950s (when the USSR crushed the attempted hungarian revolution), its just normal people wouldn't have heard of it since it was mostly an anarchist term. Its use when it comes to countries in the global south has more to do w/ 'socialist' countries there tending to be authoritarian (ie, using the same tactics we would rightfully condemn fascists for, but is somehow okay when enemies of the west do it)
Related, its amusing you think anarchists want to side with their own elites.
The idealism of many of our anarchist "comrades" really irritates me. The only serious anarchists in North America are doing direct action against Neo Nazis, and/or out busting their asses helping the homeless, which I know is hard work from first hand experience.
@@NoMastersNoMistress If you need to surround comrades in quotes, then you just might as well say, "I can't wait to shoot all of them in back as soon as the revolution is over." Because that's what Marxist-Leninists have always done. It's not surprising at all that anarchists are forever suspicious of MLs and unwilling to give them any solidarity anymore. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on _you._
@@miro.georgiev97- I am a beginner leftist. Is there a a bad historic relationship between Communists and anarchists?
@@Rompelstaump I don't remember what comment I made that had you responding to me, as I can no longer see it. 😅
But, to answer your question, yes: communists, specifically of the Marxist-Leninist persuasion (every current and former state whose explicitly-stated goal has been socialism or communism were ultimately based on Marxist-Leninist ideals, regardless of deviations), and anarchists have not been on good terms for a long time, and I don't see relations between these two warming any time soon. Anarchists are fundamentally opposed to the state itself, which they view as the greatest tool of capitalism, meaning that terms like "worker's states" or "actually existing socialist states" are considered contradictory since how can the greatest tool of capitalism be used to destroy capitalism? Marxist-Leninists believe that a revolution requires a "vanguard" of people who are especially knowledgeable in theory leading the charge and that the state will ultimately "wither away" with enough time and dedication toward realizing socialism. I'm being intentionally very broad and generalizing so that you don't get too mired in the weeds of leftist theory.
Missed opportunity to have BadEmpanada to shit on Vaush.
Tankie is when you do stuff, the more stuff you do the more tankie you are
29:00 he talks about Vaush lmao he also called Cyprus, Greece because the majority of people there are greek which is hilarious.
"What are Bosnia and Kosovo? Are they real countries?" Anarcho NATOist Vaush
I would like to see that clip. Searched on TH-cam but no luck.
Based Greek Nationalist Social-chauvinist Anarcho-NATO-ist Wash. 😂
PS: So basically Crimea is Russia, according to Wash. 😂🤣
or what is Kosovo
@@nektariosorfanoudakis2270 basically the whole middle east is Saudi Arabia or UAE because they have Arab in their name 🤣
this was rather cathartic for me. hearing sentiments that i know are normal to have assures me that i'm not the insane one... not quite, but that's one way to put it.
In Spain at least, a "red fash" is what we call "rojipardo" (mix of red and brown) and we have some of that. Roberto Vaquero and his organization/cult (because it is a cult, some ex-members have said as much) called "Frente Obrero" (Labour Front) is basically that. A socialchauvinist obsessed with Spain's "unity" and hypercentralist, a social reactionary that spouses the worst kind of "anti woke" rethoric,etc.
In the US I've heard about Caleb Mauping and people like Peter Coffin, a somewhat "leftist" youtuber that ended up moving towards those kind of positions.
Lest we forget notorious cannibal Santiago Armesilla...
@@toposebi95 LOL, that's impossible to forget.
But how "red" is he for example though? I tend to notice, that when people describe some red fash type, it's either simply in bad faith someone whos red (maybe with a few controversial opinions/bad optics/populist) or someone whos just a fash.
With the latter sometimes they paint themselves with the thinnest coat of red paint - but if they get into the reach of any sort of state power, or even if you just take a deeper look at their line of thinking and their rhetoric, the paint immediately falls of.
@@pinotpinotpinot Have you heard Maupins speeches?
Guy is just a nazbol.
Cannot really comment on other people mentioned in here.
@@pinotpinotpinot they are basically traditional socialdemocrats that miss the "golden times" of welfare state, that also love Spanish nationalism, hate minorities, have the same discourse regarding immigration as the right, etc.
Calling "Tankie" the (less) right-wing, radlib equivalent of "woke" is so fucking obvious I'm stunned I didn't notice that before now. It also makes me recall some cringe that I would spout a year or two back when I was still in my socdem-pretending-to-be-a-leftist phase.
What I like to say since I realized how it was being used is "Leftists don't call Leftists 'tankies'".
You said tankie and i remembered a funny thing that happened last week; i was comming back from the bathroom when i heard the TV saying "from Berlin to Warsaw with only one tank" in the kitchen and i ran into it yelling "wtf!, not this again!" and it was a commercial for a new car. I laughted a solid minute after i calmed down.
The current use of the word 'Tankie' is just another example of liberalism taking a term that may be useful in a particular circumstance and rendering it meaningless. Little more than "Here is a thing I don't like. Here is a term that I understand to be a 'bad' thing. Therefore, all things I don't like are are now this Bad Thing regardless of the actual definition, history, or any semblance of nuance."
@@n0tthemessiah I have still yet to come across a single liberal ever use this term in real life and in all seriousness. Can we please stop pretending tankie is a liberal word? It's not.
@@miro.georgiev97 Sorry, didnt realize your personal experience was the sole source of truth. I take it all back.
@@n0tthemessiah I doubt I'm the _only_ one who has never encountered a liberal using the word "tankie" in real life. 🙄 😒
@@miro.georgiev97 Oh, wow. I'm really embarrassed. I'll amend my statement to be more accurate.
Sorry, I didn't realize your personal experience *and doubts* were the sole source of truth.
28:17 oh yeah, that guy, the youtube geopolitical expert, such a beacon for the left
The great left infighting discourse has finally arrived, everyone.
Also, the thumbnail is absolutely class.
Leftist infighting is when plebs online cry about mfs who actually acheived something
That too
✊Ok, this is one of the best Deprogram episodes, guys🧡
I actually get a sense of pride whenever terminally online people call me a tankie and they repeat CIA propaganda lines. It means it's working.
As a newly radicalized, anti-authoritarian socialist myself, this episode was eye-opening for me, particularly toward the end. I had been grappling with all past socialist revolutions being "authoritarian" to some degree, with a single party in power, a strong state suppressing opposition. I knew that capitalism is also authoritarian for the vast majority despite insisting otherwise, but surely replacing that with another form is not ideal, even if better than capitalism. Are we any better when we have China?
While I still disagree with the approach, I can understand why now. The language used is deceptively opaque to the details: who is the authority, and who is being oppressed? Capitalism places capitalists in authority, while the majority are forced to work under the terms they set. A socialist movement is "authoritarian" in the sense that the majority impose their will on the minority capitalists. The term, by design, conflates the two.
What JT said stuck with me, "'If we do this that makes us no better than them', no, you _are_ better than them simply for the fact that your beliefs are for the good of the vast majority of people and opposed to the interests of the people that would keep the vast majority down" Love this.
Also, bet Hakim? Perhaps I will :P
Thanks for this podcast guys! :)
57:50 "It's a tankie way" Time we embrace this "term" and be proud about it! "This is the way"
44:00 I look at this like modern social Darwinism being pushed by the capital owners.
around the ten minute mark, talking about buffets and how they profit. A local buffet got closed down due to a health inspection. But not only that, they got busted for human trafficking. They would basically house illegal immigrants and even transport them to the buffet themselves. And then they would drive them back in the big van they had. It was essentially slave labor.
Jugo kissing beards is amazing , specially when they shaved 5 days ago and it’s just growing 🥵😍
Revolution is not a dinner party
Nice to see that Katyusha and the T-34-85 are in the thumbnail.
*You have been banned from r/shitlibsub*
Reason: Tankie
Getting permabanned off Reddit for joking about killing Nazis.
My first job was digitizing the paperwork of one little title insurance agency. It was unending and that's just one of the many branches of bureaucracy you have to interact with to do something as basic as buying a home. Capitalism is so intractably bureaucratic.
Masterful thumbnail game
There's only one way, and it's the tankie way. I want that on every shirt I own.
"What is Kosovo"? Let me take a wild guess! Was his first initial "V", his last initial "H" with "AUS" in the middle, by any chance was this livestreamer? 🤣🤣
Hell yea
33:06 cynical balkanoid laughter.
So on the flip side of "The spanish anarchists had to resort to authoritarianism to survive" The soviets when starting out tried to abolish money (sort of) and other general anarco socialist ideas. People like to fall into this "no true communist" kinda trap of saying x or y country wasn't socialist enough. Fact is organizing people is hard and sometimes you have to make a government to do that.
The Heart Attack Grill is what Yugopnik is thinking of.
I just searched that up and I'm just wondering how is that real, just why would someone need a burger that big??? Americans are crazy people.
I use commie in my name, but it is a joke. It doesn't bother me when I am insulted for being a communist, so it is fine to me. I also am not very creative when it comes to names..
Maybe we ought to take up making model tanks. Or trains! Of course we're tankists, let me tell you about the perks of the Type 69, other than the name of course...
Yay, Катюша is in the thumbnail! УРА!
Weeb
@@deptusmechanikus7362 Ναι, ω φιλε.
I like Klara more though, but anyways this episode has a nice intro 😂
@@icantaimpg3d776 Me too. Having her and Nonna speak Russian is so cool.
@Porky Я згодны, таварыш.
My old fave is "The 'M' in Stalin stands for Mistakes"
Banger of an episode.
Girls und tankies forever lol
Best sports anime ever. Pravda forever.
They'll never let Katyusha beat Erika because they're still mad about Khakhin Gol.
16:52 I want to see the CIA to tweet at the FBI calling then tankies.
I dream of Hakim
Hakim, Hakim, oh Hakim
Your voice fills me with steam
Steam that fills from emotional bowels
To intellectual brows
I wonder what it’s like to be in your esteem
But alas I can only dream
For your face does not show through the screen
Only a blank Lin-een for Hak-eem
Are you smooth are you rough
For me to guess is not enough
I must hold you so I can show you
How much my eyes yearn to know you
Will I ever know your head’s fluf, is it more than a tuft?
I burn inside, for you I know
But never will I see if you stand high or low
Yugopnik is the same
Yet his drawn face satisfies my aim
Of Chapo, JT, Blowback, or Parenti
Hakim was my first and I love him plenty
Hakim, Hakim, oh Hakim
Will I ever know your face?
:’(
"how's the d***??" 🤣👏
Oh man I'm trying that out at my next family get-together man that sure is going to go over like a neutron bomb
💀💀💀💀💀😂
Great speech by hakim. Very powerful.
I used to be an anti tankie. I cringe at that thought now
Tbh I don't care if you're a "tankie" cause it's thrown around so much that I don't even know what it means anymore. What really matters is your personal ideological beliefs.
Labels are over used. Personal principles are all that matters.
A tankie comment to feed the authoritarian algorithm.
Critical support to North Korea
This episode has made me finally feel comfortable to adopt the title ML and not feel shame for it because of the damn liberals in the walls. Thanks!! ^^
I always listen to the entire song at the end...I can't help myself.
Do you know what it's called? It's super nice!
@@YenRestherac I remember watching one of the episodes where they talked about it's development and played the entire thing. I am not sure of the title though.
Long life Socialism, long live the deprogram!
why hakim's channel only has 18 videos now? Was hakim hacked or anything like that?
He put the old vids on private. Not 100% sure but IMO he’s updating/redoing his takes on the old videos.
Huh, I thought he got shadowbanned by the TH-cam overlords.
@@Marc_Dub7 noooo! I was wondering wtf happened
The term I see people use for you guys is stalinists, also a lot of tankie stuff but the first one seems to be worse and people are receptive to vuvuzela 100gillion no iphone discourse.
next episode The Straterite Discourse
The closest i can think to 'red fash' are these aus nationalist/ lyndon larouche-esque? parties which thinking of the man ironically wasnt the dude identifying as a trotskyist least at the begining? :p
In that motherfucker sure liked to mash a lot of terms together, but i could a bit of a bias, or like taking advantage of the fact that red scare seemed to have broken everyone's brains where it can take so much fucking work to have even a basic understanding of what Marxism or what a dialectic even is. This is the 'glory' of ths west -.-
National Bolshevik can be classified as such thing I think
I don't even think it's fair to call Laroucheites left at all. It's weird right populist almost q-anon type shit. There might be some left overlap with certain anti war stances, but not much more than that.
Larouche is not a red fash nor a nazbol. He doesn't even subscribe to Marxism anyways.
I lol’d when Hakim pointed out that tankie is to radlibs what woke is to conservatives 😭
This was one of your best episodes. I think finding ways to deal with the absurd language used by the pseudo-leftists is as important as any topic because its disheartening to be talked to with such infantile talking points.
And hakim i think the term you were looking for was a thought terminating cliche. That's what tankie is, or nazbol, etc. Its basically liberals finding a way to call socialists and communists the n-word and not be too obvious.
Hakim:- Afghanistan
Subtitles:- You mean Einstein?