HARLEY FTC and VIN BLOCK Explained with Doc Harley - Kevin Baxter - Pro Twin Performance
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- Join me at @LowCountryHarleyDavidson in a conversation with Doc Harley. This is part 3 of a series where we discuss warranty, upgrades, performance, the FTC ruling and MORE.
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Pro Twin Performance and Baxter's Garage
723 W Winder Industrial Pkwy
Winder, GA 30680
(678) 226-9651
00:00 Introduction
00:33 How can i modify my harley and keep my warranty
01:56 What does FTC Ruling with Harley Say?
06:00 What is the best oil for my Harley?
14:48 Can Harley void my warranty?
19:52 Whats the best ESP for my Harley?
22:31 Closing - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I've been watching you guys independently for a long time, the collaboration is top-notch and much appreciated.
i've been watching both for years also and couldn't agree more. great job
I had an issue with a brand new low rider ST. Had the same aftermarket service plan that kevin is talking about.. from day 1. 3 days after having my bike, i installed a stage 1 with a powervision tune. About a week later when i really started riding it, the bike had really bad excessive blowby. Like I lost a qt of oil in 2 days. Dealership was not educated in how this warranty "voiding" thing actually works (like doc just explained here in the video) and had told me my warranty was void.
Rather than fight with the dealership and harley on it, i had submitted the claim thru the aftermarket service plan, i was able to take it to my mechanic (non-dealer) and get the issue fixed (loose piston oilers), along with a big bored kit and many other upgrades installed.
Now bike runs great, still has less than 1500 miles on it and is fully covered (including aftermarket upgraded parts) regarding warranty until 2026.
However, had I not purchased the Aftermarket ESP, This would have escalated with Harley. Piston oilers not being torqued down properly from the factory was proof that the failure had absolutely nothing to do with the tuner.
The education from this video needs to be spread to other dealerships because that is where the incorrect information comes from regarding voiding warranties.
I've leaned 2 avoid stealerships as much as possible...
Iv always use diesel oil shell Rotella 15x40 no problem change ever 1500 miles I been a Ford linc mechanic for 20 yrs
Gloria Tramontin Struck is a very unique person. I had the pleasure of meeting her at a show a few years ago. She's 97 years old now.
I love my FLSTCI 2004, but I will never understand how a company like HD can build a V Twin motor, basically the same as it was 100+ years ago, and still not get it right! Cam chain tensioners getting chewed... I think Kevin would justify a position on the board of HD!
Way too many people I know had trashed twin cams because of crappy tentioners that Harley ignored.
Thanks Doc... Thanks Kevin, much appreciated.
Just discovered you Kevin, been following Doc for a while now, great to see you together
Thanks for doing this series. And I look forward to more in the future. I learn so much from both of you and have the up most respect for you both!
Love all the information, keep up the great work.
Great content and you two are a wealth of knowledge, keep the collaboration coming. I think a live conversation would be great.
Lots of good information! Thanks Doc & Kevin
I always enjoy all of the information and knowledge both of y’all have thanks for sharing it and looking forward for more 👍🏻
Very well done. Lotsa good info here. Glad to see you guys working together.
Thank you both ,this information is very helpful and educational
Thank you Kevin and Doc. I too have been watching you individually and these joint videos have been great.
Love this thanks
The reason for the class action lawsuit was bc some dealerships were denying claims for frivolous reasons. Examples of slip ons, oil changes… HD was known for being ridiculous, especially compared to other manufacturers. The warranty/paperwork hasn’t changed, it forced HD to abide by the law.
I question if they will change their practice at all.
Love this series with Doc Harley
Have always loved watching both you guys individual videos, but really enjoyed watching both you professionals together on this video...Thanks for sharing and educating us all here today...
Awesome and keep going…truly appreciated
Yes I've enjoyed this series with you two. You both have a ton of knowledge
My two favourite motorcycle people together, fantastic content as always gentlemen, looking forward to more of your collaborations!! Thank you.
Been subscribed to both ya guys for a long time. Gotta say love watching both of y’alls content. Look forward to possible Collabs in the future. Very educational for the end consumer. 👍
Let’s talk about the motor oil. Harley’s syn3 motor oil does not show any oil rating that it meets. There is no JASO class rating on their oils. A JASO rating is not a trade secret it is a classification set forth by the industry. There is no way I would an oil that does not show a rating on it.
I have to agree with you sir. One has to believe that it is rated and in line with their specs...i guess I just wanna see it.
Lab test show it’s not that great, just pushed by the manufacturer, well the manufacturer that subcontracts out the manufacturing of the oil.
Sunflower oil Is probably fine for these engines, thats why i guess.
Mobil 1 synthetic 20\50 motorcycle oil
Well I watched a video by Kevin on oils, synthetic vs conventional. He takes a similar stance and said he doesn’t trust or use an oil that doesn’t show its ratings/classification. If I recall correctly he said he does not use the (H-D) manufacturers oil for that reason. It appeared (he did not mention it by name) that he uses Amsoil. Disappointed he didn’t say in this video what he said in the other regarding H-D engine oil.
Love the videos you 2 put together always a help and I am a amsoil and k& m filter fan
I'm glad to see you guys come together. Great job guy's
It is a real treat to see two great minds sharing their know how an time. Thank U both
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Kevin & Doc, awesome content!!
Years ago an independent laboratory did a test on all major oils. Harley Davidson oil was at the bottom end of the list. I like Red Line but my dealer only has Harley products.
It's hard not to smile at the end of this video. Enjoyed this series and other guests you have had in the past.
Good stuff enjoy the vids. I have been subscribed to both channels for a long time. Bought my 1st Harley in 2016. 07 fxdl and learned a lot from u guys.
Love Doc Harley
Outstanding series, gents! Thank you for such great educational - and FUN - content! ✌🤘
I could listen to you two guys forever. So much love for the industry and so much knowledge that you share.
Kevin, I was surprised to see you doing these videos with Doc Harley! I bought all my parts from you on my TC build & I met Mike at Low Country when I rode down there. Two very different views coming together. Love it! Thanks for the great content. 👍
Doc is a great fella. Very like minded. Thanks!
This series of videos is great! I always take away something from both of your channels about maintaining my bikes
I look forward to more in the future. I learn so much from both of you and have the utmost respect for you both! You can talk about the 2019 and up Tri Glide also...))))))
Been watching you two sense you started your discussions ,there great, keep up the good work,always intéresting,an lots of good infoe Thank You
bought my bike new in 05. I bought a 7yr warranty. the harely shop said I should do this this and this. tuner, true duals, big bore kit, port the heads. I wanted geared cams. dealer says we will void your warranty if go geared cams. my motor went south, they threw a bunch junk into my motor. wouldn't deal help me any longer. I paid another 9k out pocket have my motor rebuilt. I would not trust anything a harley dealership ever says. you can call my attitude anything you want. Harley dealerships are the lowest.
Most dealerships are out for profit period. Some squeeze every damn nickel even when it's obviously larceny. I do most of my own maintenance and use a locally owned shop for anything else. I have had to go for digital tech updates but they are free or 30 bucks and no one is touching the motor.
Great video Kevin, Doc
Thank you 👍
Just wanted to thank you both for the knowledge and information that you’re putting out. Keep up the great work I think it’s extremely helpful to anyone. That is a veteran or newbie to Harley and the riding lifestyle
I love this episode sure made me think on the oils I have used in the last 50 yrs keep up the great work C.T.of WV
Very good knowledge
Both u guys are experts, impressive commentary 👏
All this depended on the dealer you deal with. I've ran Mobil 1 15w-50 Syn in my 95 Heritage (in the motor) since 20,000 miles. Change oil every 2500 miles. Got 97,500 miles now. Never been into the motor.
Keep it up, great stuff
Hope you 2 keep doing this, as someone who worked for dealers for decades and then managed an Independent shop before i retired, it's a great view from both sides, and technically (because i became a service manager from the service writer position) i was forced to lean on Tech's i Trusted for information, and Doc and you Kevin are my online go To's . When i Worked at Low Country HD i often had to go to DOC (Mike) for information and he was always a great resource to have, even though I'm sure i was not everyone's favorite because i was the Warranty Manager and i was very strict about the warranty rules as was my job to protect PHIL's (owner LCHD) Money, but even when DOC was mad at me i always respected his knowledge As do i yours Kevin via on line, Hope you 2 do more of these
You guys are awesome 👌
I absolutely love and trust Doc and have been lucky enough to talk to him in person for a few short minutes between races, I’ve watched a couple of your joint videos and really like the fact that instead of putting on the gloves and duking it out you guys work together for a common cause !
Kevin and Doc,
Thanks so much for giving even more of your time to try and educate. It is much appreciated by many I'm sure.
You two can sit down and talk about most anything and I will listen so yeah, if y'all wanna do more content together, then by all means, have at it.
I think a lot of folks feel their hands are tied as to what can be done if they own a bike with a warranty.
Maybe you could do a segment on maximizing the performance of an H-D engine while staying within the parameters set forth to not void their warranty. If there aren't many options, then that may warrant another whole discussion.
Great Videos!
I’ve just watched part 3 and I appreciate the information and both of you guys taking the time…. My 2019 Ultra Limited only has around 8,800 miles…. I added a HARLEY DAVIDSON detatchable docking hardware kit to be able to remove the tour -pack when not needed…. I installed this myself…. Was easy enough to do…. Was careful and very pleased with the end result…. When waxing the tour pack a few days ago…. I’ve noticed a crack around the hole where the wiring harness at the rubber gromet where the harness comes out of the tour pack ( not near the mounting plate I installed) … the four mounting bolts were carefully torqued and not over tightened…. I’m sure I’d need to take it to a dealership but I haven’t actually installed this tour pack since I removed it and added the docking kit….. I’m guessing since I installed this myself the bottom of my tour pack would not be covered under any warranty 😢…. It still seems to be useable…. But I I guess just the fact of knowing it’s there and this is a 30k motorcycle….. I know this is a very long comment lol but any advice 🤷🏻♂️… 😅 enjoyed your video and thanks again 👍
Really good series. Been watching you guys independently for a lot of years. I have been riding many many years but in 2022 I bought a new streetglide special. I have to put in 5000 miles on this bike. The catalytic converter is just too hot so I put a full sack MX header with kromewerks and a stage two using power vision tuner. I’m very interested to know what I still retain in my warranty and what I will be responsible with mechanical issues down the road and you answered a lot of my questions both of you have, and thank you again.
great video
Almost perfect!
Ride Forever!
Thanks guys. That was a really good interaction with a HDMC service professional and an independent after market professional. We are fortunate to have your knowledge and experience in the community. The FTC warranty and HDMC was something some dealerships could tell someone who didn’t know any better. It’s sad because warranty work is covered by the company, not the dealership. So, they lost customers trust and the word kinda spread that you would void your warranty.. You are right, HDMC position hasn’t changed it’s just how some dealerships dealt with it…. Now the good stuff, which oil does Kevin use on most of his builds? Doc says to stick with Harley brand, uuumm!, yes his hands are tied…..
Harley-Davidson does not own the refinery where the lubrication oil is made. The MoCo works with these refineries and the engineers to develop specific additive packages to meet the needs of there purpose. This is the reason there is no specific API classification on there products. It is only specified for use in Harley Davidson products. There is also products from major oil companies that can meet the needs of Harley. I have used these in the products in the past and will continue to use them in the future. Thanks to Doc' & Kevin for there comments and help in educating us.
The more likely reason for not having an API classification is to obfuscate the actual properties of the oil so people will be induced to use HD oil out of ignorance and fear. If the oil can meet API and JASO certification requirements then it should be on the label. While both processes take a bit of time and money, last I heard HD has plenty of both.
Usually an aftermarket part is a better one than what Harley offers.
I've always enjoyed both your videos, very informative and easy to understand. Each of you have a area where we as consumers gain insight, be dealer or independent, and I appreciate that you two give of your time and knowledge.
Uneducated salesman and service writers are partly to blame for voiding warranties. I went to MMI to become a Harley Tech. Been doing this for 16yrs now and I have heard it all from customers telling me the salesmen or the service writer told me their warranties are void because they didn't use our products which isn't always the case. Get with your service manager or a technician to find the right answer.
Great job Gentlemen I love what you guys are doing,My question is I have a 21 flhxs each time I service my primary oil the chain is tight like a quitar string I have a hd 5 year extended warrantee I would love to install the baker manual tensioner.But if I have a compensator problem or a main bearing clutch hub bearing ETC... problem I'm concerned they will void these parts cause of the tensioner. I like 5/8 to 7/8 tension not a quitar string.
I still can't understand how a tmax broke my transmission in a 17 ultra??? Warranty voided and I paid for the baker dd7. Since traded it off, happy w my 20 but went aftermarket warranty now!! Met doc on way back from Florida, very thankful for his customer service even during c19, had to talk outside!! Ride safe
The oil I liked to run recommended by Kevin was Amsoil yes I’d order Three different types of Amsoil for my bikes
Right there with you.
When I was working at HD dealership...we were told (from m/c) Quaker State Pennzoil furnished the oil.
Hi guys, when we take apart the engine and replace some parts. When we reassemble the engine we are basically using used parts. I am not sure why no one is talking muck about dye penetrant testing. I would never reassemble with out testing thing like, heads, cases, covers, manifolds and of course, the new parts. I am sure you both have come across cracked parts new and used.
I value the videos and information you both share. Thank you!
Hi Tim. We have come across cracked parts but not very often and the signs are pretty obvious. Also, when a crack is observed, it becomes a known common problem typically. A couple of examples...valve guide bores, crack at valve seat. both will exhibit leeching oil and during disassembly, it's easily seen. You can also tell when pressing parts out. if they come out too easily, then there is a reason. Great observation!
Rotella t6 15w-40 is jaso/jaso2 rated oil. I would be more confident running this in all three holes than the harley brand oil.
Why didn't HD recall the really oil pump in the 2017-2019 M-8 engines? They did upgrade them in newer models but never admitted it. But thanks, because I decided to upgrade the pump and since you have it open might as well upgrade the cam and cam plate, lifters and a few more things. And boy o boy did it wake it up and will last a lot longer. Was worth it, glad I could afford it. Most can't after the cost of the bike itself!$$
since i started riding MC's in the early 70's, I dont take my MC to the dealer for warrenty work. I fix them myself. If I can't then I'll pay a dealer to help. But for 50 yrs I have only gone a couple of times. It was cheaper than buying certain tools. My current Harley is a RGU, car tire rear wheel, after market cams and oil pump and cam bearing, handle bars are not HD, but ever thing else is HD. A good bike, no issues
Hello all, great video. Will a fueling vented dipstick void the engine warranty?
Oil: I watched some Independent testing done on different oils. I now use AMSOIL full synthetic Oils for my Engine, Primary and Transmission.
Absolutely. The best oils . Are the ones. 7100 motul. Betray. 85 90 . Trans . Drag special prim
I got a couple of questions for yall. 19 FLDE. This morning my 45 minute ride to work in 27 degrees was chilly. My oil temp never got above 150. Is it advisable as on my diesel truck to block off the oil coolermtonallow the oil to come to temperature? Also why did the exceptable oil consumption and leak down rates have gone so high from the TC to the M8? I think 1qt per 1000 miles oil consumption as well as 25% leak down rates within the 2 year warranty period to be very excessive
I would like to commend and Thank You both for all the info that y'all are sharing on this set of videos and all of the ones that you have done in the past on you're own channels. OK here one for you to mull over... I have a 2010 w. over 100K miles and I wouldn't hesitate taking on a cross country trip, it's showing some carbon blow by from the rings in the oil. I'm not one who really cares about building a monster bike but I do want long term reliability and able to have a issue solved at a HD dealer if out 1500 miles away from home.... what's the difference/issue/concern between a HD long block (comes w/a warr) vs a indy rebuild??? TY!!!
Oil... Oil is always one of the biggest discussions on the internet. I hear so many people put down Syn3, saying, Harley Davidson doesn't make their own oil. Of course they don't. Harley Davidson is a motorcycle manufacturer, not an oil company. The OIL company that supplies the Harley Davidson branded oils, makes it to Harley Davidsons specifications. Harley Davidson isn't going to source the cheapest oil available either. Why would a manufacture, who offers and backs a warranty on their motorcycles want cheap oil poured into the very engines, transmissions and primary drives that they warranty? That would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Then there are the people that say synthetic oil thins out when it gets hot and that is why you should use "Dino" oil. Well, the base of most synthetic oil is "Dino" oil. Multi-viscosity Dino oil has additives added to it to make it act like synthetic oil without those same additives. The additives in Dino oil is what helps make it a multi-viscosity oil, helping it to flow better at lower temperatures and making it thicker at higher temperatures. Over time, the additives in Dino oil will break down and vaporize, returning the oil to it's original state. Remember, full synthetic doesn't have those particular additives and should not have a change in it's viscosit; although, they can become thicker with the amount of contaminates present in the oil. Then there are the guys who swear by a brand of oil that drains out as clean as when they put it in. That right there should tell you, the oil is NOT doing its job. The 3 main functions of oil is, lubrication, cooling and trapping and suspending contaminates in your engine, caused from combustion byproducts. This is what keeps the inside of your engine clean and sludge free. Oil also prevents corrosion and oxidation within the engine. I have heard people go as far as saying Syn3 and HD 360 is junk oil because it doesn't have the API Service Doughnut. Well, Harley Davidson oil is made for Harley Davidson's, not Hondas, Kawasaki's or any other manufacture's motorcycles. That is why there is no need for the API Service Doughnut. I'm glad Kevin brought up using oil made for diesel engines if you are in a bind and need oil. That is right in your owner's manual. A service rating that starts with a 'C" means compression ignition engine, as in a diesel engine. Anything with a service rating that starts with an 'S' means spark ignition engine, gasoline engine. Some oils will be rated for both C & S applications. What you need to pay attention to is, the letters and numbers that come after the 'C', again, check your owner's manual. If you really want to know how well your oil of choice is performing in your motorcycle, send a sample to an independent lab for analysis. I use Blackstone-labs. They will give you a breakdown of all the wear metals in your oil and compare it with average wear metals in similar engines with the same miles on them. They will check for coolants and water, like if you have a twin cooled Harley Davidson. They will let you know how well your oil filter and air filter are performing. They will tell you if the oil viscosity is what it should be. The analysis will tell you if you have fuel in your oil. They will give you a breakdown of every element in your oil. Let's say you have a high chromium and iron levels showing up in your oil. Well, that should tell you that your piston rings and cylinders are wearing more than they should be. An oil analysis is like getting a checkup for your engine.
This is for Doc!! You said! "Harley Stand by Their Product"
I live in the UK!
I Bought a 2016 FXDLS 110cu recently, I'm the 3rd owner 7100miles (I did buy it privately) it had a transferable warranty!
It was suffering a lot of oil dripping from the air filter?!!
To cut a long story short
On inspection (a tear down) it was found that the rear cylinder had not had the oil drain holes drilled, from manufacture!!!!
The Warranty people say it's not their problem it's a manufacturing problem. Harley UK says it's between me and the dealership!
I didn't buy it from a dealership?! So, at the moment I have a big bill to put right what Harley got wrong at manufacture!!
This fault in manufacture would certainly cause injury and possibly a death due to oil spewing onto the rear tire also the rear brake rotor!!
Do you have any advice as to how I can contact Harley Davidson directly to have them reimburse me the money to rectify their manufacturing issue.
I Know that Legally if a manufacturing issue that may cause "Injury or Death!" That, the Manufacturing Company could be forced to do a product recall!! I'm certain they would rather reimburse me the relatively small cost of putting my manufacturing problem right than the massive expense of a recall how many 2016-2017 FXDLS 110ci are there in the world?
you can message me ronnie@llanycefnforge.eclipse.co.uk That includes Harley Davison worldwide if they read this!
This info may not be new, or a change to the warranty, but it must come as news to some HD dealers otherwise the FTC never would have had cause to rule. Somebody, or many somebody's must have been getting told, either at the dealerships or in print from the motor company, that the aftermarket parts would void the warranty. Plus, certain companies wanting to market to HD customers had a vested interest in dispelling this common misconception, no matter how it originated.
I agree with you completely sir.
We need 2 use vtwin specific oil in our engines. I prefer 2 change at 2500 miles, its easy 2 do. I like a flo oil filter to makes the bike run 10° cooler...
When I was working at an HD dealer in Colorado Springs, we received a case of HD oil. The case was marked HD, had bar and shield logos all over it. When we opened the case all the quarts of oil were Kendal in their factory bottles. HD has always screwed their customers by putting a bar and shield on a product and selling it for 40% more. Can HD even put a "Made in America" sticker on the bikes anymore? Hell over half the product content is made offshore, even motors made in India.
Will you be asking Doc about endplay measurement being so much more than what it should be?
Iv riden harleys for 30+ years and still do. I live In England across the pond. I wish there was goog people like your selfs over hear. Not a harley but I also one 2022 a triumph rocket 3gt the main dealer for triumph didn't know how to service the bike. It came back to me with 1.8l of oil under the min mark.and the rong grade of oil. Just 🤡🤯 saying. Keep up the good work Kevin 👏 👍
I use Bel-ray conventional 20w50 with 6 ozs of zddp. Runs like a Swiss watch...
Oil is a big deal. If the oil is made to a specific standard or meets an advertised specification it should not void the warranty. I would argue that HD is a "cost conscious" manufacturer which means they too buy from "cheapest" supplier that can supply an oil to a specification or standard. So oil like Mobil synthetic for Motorcycles should not even be in question.
Ok now after looking at engine over haul is Harley oil been the best looking at the scoffing or wear
I have my Sportster going on 23 years now and I have 400,000 miles on the original engine. It has been a phenomenally reliable motorcycle more than I ever could dream. That's probably why Harley canceled the evolution Sportster because it was too good.
Where is the best place to get the shop manual for repair? And best ones please
I love both of you when you say that HD builds great motorcycles I don't agree totally as they have now put in the m8 motor plastic intakes and lifter cuffs. I'm no expert but that seems like a very cheap move by them considering what these bikes cost. It's not correct that after we buy such an expensive new bike we need to upgrade to S&S or other high quality non plastic parts because truth is these intake manifolds and lifter cuffs will warp or melt in the long run. It's frigging plastic . Can you give a reasonable explanation why the Moco cheaped out on such important and crucial pieces? Thank you both🙏
...the agreement has clarified... In a nutshell, harley's warranty was worded in a way that could possibly make owners think they can only use Harley parts or the warrant would be voided. FTC said, dont indicate that, and tell owners straight up what the law is.
Great video guys...I watch Doc each week.....BUT.....Harley Davidson is at the top of the ladder in motorcycles,YET it is at the bottom when it comes to WARRANTY....Honda,Yamaha,Kawasaki offer at least 3 year some more of warranty.....OIL Harley don't make any oil,they speck it from whomever is the cheapest!!!!lowest bidder if u will...Lastly Harley's front office has NO MOTORCYCLE people in it!!!! If Harley wants to lead then lead it must in all catagories!!!!
Hit the thumbs up
Didn’t know your shops were so close.
Ams oil can't be beat.
I love the fact that you two are collaborating. My only peeve, is when you guys say, “I’m not naming names, but…”. I understand you are trying to avoid any slander, but it does no good to any of your listeners NOT to identify particular manufacturers and their defects. You were talking about a certain “big name” oil brand, but wouldn’t identify it. Was it Mobil One? I used that oil exclusively, and if theirs a reason I shouldn’t be using it, I want to know.
The lowest bidder is awarded the contract in supplying Harley Davidson oil
People have to remember, mechanics usually only see a bike when there's a problem. If the millions of bikes don't a have problem, the few thousand that do, stand out more
It's a paper tiger win for us consumers. The motor company will continue to deny warranty claims just like always. Time will certainly tell. You either keep it stock or modify through your selling dealer with their grace or swim upstream.
Who is this company you work with for you aftermarket warranty deal? Or is it only through you? I’ve been shopping around for when my extended Harley warranty runs out. Both for normal stuff and also aftermarket goodies
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