Sherlock, no doubt. Did not know that you had eye problems. I lost my left eye to Glaucoma, myself. I actually ride my softail to my visits with Dr, Shah, in Bethlehem. Kinda' tricky ridin' home with one "good" eye dilated. That's always a challenge. But hey, I'm 67 and I am not gonna' waste a minute of ridin' time while I'm still able. Admire you for doing what you love to do, despite the eye issue. I did motorcycle work, a few years for my friend, Joe Hollis, right down the street from you. He had a shop between the Ford dealership and Walmart. The place with the large gravel parking lot in front of a small warehouse looking building. You've probably seen it. It was dark and cold, in Winter. But, I really enjoyed it. Learned a lot. I actually do all my own repairs on my 2001 Heritage. Replaced tensioners last winter, at 38,000. Good thing I checked them. Found a piece of tensioner material in the bottom of the cam chest. Didn't have a dial indicator at the time. So, I don't know what the runout was. I will definitely check it next time. I hope it is less than 0.003. Gear drive would eliminate the problem. Have to save up for a while. Social Security doesn't allow much for Harley upgrades. Have to think about that one. Anyway, I'm local and look forward to meeting you soon. Didn't mean to write a book, Bro'. I think I need another whiskey and coke. Be safe.
Hello Kevin I am Steve baker from Gold Beach Oregon wanted to thank you for all the knowledge you share to your subscribers it's really helps me as a do it your seller have rode and worked on all my bikes since 1968 I'm now 72 still riding with your training I am able to keep the motivation to work on them myself So Marry Christmas to you and your Staff and family And a Very prosperous New Year Many Thanks
I still like my 103 twin cam. 10 years old 22, 000 miles no motor issues. Good gas mileage, 48-52 mpg depending how I ride. Had to replace battery twice, fuel pump once.
Man I have owned shovels, egos, twin cams and no M8 FXLRST. Starting in 1978 with shovel in a 56 straight leg frame next 87 heritage softail, to 89 springer to 93 bagger to 99 roadking, to 08 roadglide to my 2022 FXLRST. The only bike I had issues with was 87 heritage which turned out to be a bad relay, 46 years on HDs I would say that’s pretty reliable.
Man I have learned a lot of important information from your videos that I had no clue about but it all made perfect sense. Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and educating me quite a bit.
As an owner of a 18 fxlr 107 learned a lot more about my bike from u then doin my own research wish I lived closer to your shop keep up the good vids Kevin and thank you for sharing your knowledge
Thank you very much James! I appreciate the kind words sir. I can rely on MLS completely with a proper finish on cyl and head....and a reasonable torque that doesnt distort the head and cylinder ;)
The scissor shape crank needs to be stronger by using press in plug on the crank pin. I did overhaul an SE 120 R engine. Same thing. A bad lifter, camshaft pump etc. trued the crank. And pressed in two +0.10 mm plug in to the crank pin. The bike now runs strong and fine. Greetings Peder
Would it be possible to put a m8 cylinders and heads on a twin cam case? I’ve been thinking about this for a while and you sir seem like the man to answer my question.
I always use Hylomar on the Headgaskets, it hasn’t let me down for 40 years now. BUT damages like these head-gaskets has also emphasize the importance of warming up the engine before pulling the throttle ☝🏻🤓
Ive never done that. I dont see how it would hurt but would be curious on high compression engines...as if may act like a lubricant and allow an MLS gasket to slip. basically, blocking the viton that the gaskets are coated with from biting into the surfaces. Glad it's certainly worked for you sir.
Thank you Kevin,.. and actually it was pure luck. I had problems with an old Late Shovel motor and since I read that Rolls Royce always used it I thought that it couldn’t hurt. It solved the problem with the Shovel and I just as a “bad/good habit” have used it since 👍🏻
Thank you!!! You explained my situation perfectly!! Thank you for the M 8 video. I am very glad I didn't trade my bike because with my luck the new bike with the M-8 probably would have sumped and I would be visiting you again
Youre welcome Rick! We are well on the way. You have such a nice bike and you have meticulously cared for it and when were done, I know you will continue to. It's going to be even more awesome. I appreciate your kindness and patience sir.
I broke mine off and what fun that was. I tried to drill it out so I could use an extractor, but broke the drill off flush inside. I had to buy a specialty drill to drill out the broken drill. I learned my lesson and proceeded to remove the oil pump. I then took a heat gun to the underside of the lifter block area. Heated it for about 10 minutes and was able to more easily remove broken cuff bolt and its brother.
I had a problem with my lifter cover bolt in the rear next to the cylinder I used allen socket that's rounded that u can use at an angle and worked great on all but one and almost stripped it I used a regular Allen wrench and put a little heat in the area around the bolt Little by little I got it out thank God it didn't strip all the way or snap lol
Prior to dissembly to install a new oil pump, I rode my bike for about an hour, got it nice and hot and then I removed all the screws from the lifter covers and then the tappet cuffs.
Just did some upgrades to my 2023 114. I had no issues removing the tappet guide bolts. Maybe Harley addressed the issue? I did however apply some heat to the bolts before removing.
I'm a little surprised that you didn't use any penetrating oil on those bolts to lubricate them. Love the induction heater and just ordered one for myself. Thanks for the tip!
Used the induction heater and laser temperature gun to montitor temp. Took it up to 530 degrees, taking screws in and out and using Kroil also as the bolt came out. Took my time and it worked out great. Using thread chaser to clean threads before installing S&S tappet cuffs and new bolts
I always heat and then immediately cool the bolt , do this three times and bolt comes out easily. This heat , cool process pushes the surrounding metal ,especially aluminum away from the bolt and when it’s cool will easily come out.The heated bolt heats the surrounding metal which then wants to expand and do to the surrounding cold metal case acting like a vice the metal will expand inwards around the bolt and become even tighter, that is why you need to cool every thing down before trying to remove bolt.
Iuv your work an videos have you ever tried heat the bolt then take an eye dropper with cold water one drop after heating had great luck with this for 52 years like the modern heater
Sitting here enjoying another teardown wondering why I am even considering buying another Harley Davidson with all their issues... I must be mad... I have to laugh though at you....Where is all those organizing trays for your bolts and such...Your teardown bench looks like mine....Lol... Keep up the informative videos....Thanks...
The dealership has replaced the lifters pushrods and cam tensioner and there is no change. Don't know if they measured the lifter bores as I think the oil is passing at a higher rate than it should. It won't pump up the lifters as designed. Also at 2500 rpm and above I get a lot of valve train noise. Taking it back to the dealership, and am going to ask about lifter bores measurements. Thanks for the video very helpful info. Have 20k miles on it and have had the problem since day one.
Great vid, not alot needless talking. My m8 107 headmaster failed, the dealer did not know why, tou eluded to the fact that maybe it was over torqued at the factory, could you comment further? It happened at 40k. For about 400 dollars more I upgraded to a 114..
After watching your videos I now understand why Harley has a lifetime power train warranty on their 2023 models. Unlimited years and mileage as long as you own the bike. Wise move for them and I've owned four of them.
Didn't take long to strip it down but being out of the bike and close to eye level sure helps.. good choice of fill in music. I'll be doing my first run-out test, oil pump, cam plate, lifter and cuff replacements, pushrods, and new SE8-447 cam on my RG 107 shortly (I noticed you didnt lift and and push down on the end of the shaft to check bearing play and add to the run-out value of .010) I know it didn't matter but with this one, but I not seeing many do that or mention that check. Though I heated my lifter cuff bolts (with soldering iron) but still I broke one of the two, and currently stuck at the moment with about 3/16" sticking out and about 5/8" still BURIED DEEP in High temp Thread locker.. The Idiots at HD motor company every year never seem to fail to disappoint..lol. Had they not designed the M8 with plastic cuffs in the first place I would'nt have to remove the bolts.. But finally buddy and I got the broken bolt out..
The broken bolt thing worried me so much that I bought an induction heater before attempting to put an S&S pump and 475C kit in my '23 117. The engine only had 1100 miles at the time and none of the bolts were stuck. In fact, the bolts that felt most likely to break were the damned air cleaner bolts...crazy amount of locktite on those...arrggg!. Also, apparently HD started to put the updated Koyo bearing in for the cam cuz that's what mine had in it stock. So, I dumped a few $$$ into tools I'll probably never use again but oh well, the job went well and the thing(FXLRS 117) runs great. I sorta want to get another just to play with so maybe the tools(the Amazon cam bearing tool worked just fine even though I didn't need it) will be useful. Feels wasteful to get the tools for a one-off job but you never know if you might needs them.
What a great video, As always! Very interesting. Seems the M8’s do have, like many previous Harley engines, have issues! Maybe one day they will get it right or at least listen to great shops like yours!
Kevin there is an Allen plug on bottom of m8 cases at oil pump pickup crossover between Cam galley and flywheel galley. Fueling has found these plugs to be threaded too deep into cases restricting oil flow from flywheel galley to pickup port on oil pump. In fact they sell a shorter plug to allow proper flow to pump pickup. You can't dethread a pipe plug hole so only option is shorter plug. The stock longer plug in hole can restrict flow at high rpm which will cause sumping issue. May want to show everyone that plug and explain better than I tried.
I have seen that video and their resolution sounds very reasonable, glad that you reminded that issue so that maybe Kevin checks this bolt when he tears down the crankcase in the next episode, thanks sir.
This issue goes back to 2017 really. Not all are affected and its something we certainly check and have replaced plugs with shorter ones when necessary.
Thanks for reply. Never questioned that you always check plug engagement in cases. You are a seasoned master builder who does it right every time. Just thought you may want to show members like myself this issue in detail.
Love your vids, thank you! In this one you mention oil transfer from the transmission to the primary. Could you please do a video focusing on that issue, if hydraulic or cable actuated clutches matter, and how to really fix the problem?
Upgraded the cam chest and lifters on my 2021 M8 last winter. So happy I did not have trouble with those lifter collar bolts. But regardless, an induction heater will soon be in my tool chest. One other takeaway from this video was your mention of excessive torque values on at least one of the bolts. Do you have a table of your own recommended torque values for the M8? Or some general advice such as going to the light side of the HD recommended range?
Awesome video, have my 2021 ultra limited 114 in the Harley Davidson dealership getting my collapsed lifters replaced and they broke the bolt holding the lifters from twisting. Sure wish the mechanic was as switched on as you are. I am a retired Chrysler master mechanic and I cannot remember the last time I broke a bolt on a customer car. What make of induction heater do you have? Where did you get it. Keep up the good work, am sad I live so far away from your shop. I live on the western side of Missouri north of Joplin,or I would have taken my bike to you. Love your videos as I learn some good teck tips. Thanks Jack
Kevin, I really enjoyed this video. Been a mechanic for 45+ years, mostly diesel now, and appreciated your calm demeanor. I have a question though: I’m thinking of buying my first Harley, but have serious reservations about engine reliability, and Harley’s irresponsible way of handling warranties. What could you say that would ease my worries in this regard?
Hi Robert. My best advice would be to have the bike checked out by a reputable tech, do leak down, cyl pressure test, inspect for leaks and check for sumping. Ask for service records if they have them. All these things are what I would do before any major purchase really...not just an HD. Also...have a look at our warranty program. It allows and COVERS even aftermarket parts and accessories. We both know you will be making it your own ;) Best of luck. Dont be afraid....enjoy it!
I watched ur video and had no idea the complexity of the throttle . however this issue wasn't nearly as apparent with the stock cam. Throttle response was the very first thing I noticed, also almost everyone who shares a video here has mentioned slower or faster throttle response when they replaced a cam.
We may be calling two different things throttle response. If what you mean is, when you quickly smack the throttle you dont feel a drastic change in rate of acceleration, then it can come down to cam choice. Cam profiles have a direct affect on that. Short duration, early intake close, etc can greatly improve this. One would have to compare a stock cam to the cam they choose. If the new cam has a later close, longer duration and they also went from stock exhaust to a wide open performance exhaust, some initial punch could be lost depending on the combination, choice of parts, tuning, etc.
Jim's has a new lifter that doesn't use needle bearings. It's called the steadyroll. Jim's purchased a machine that can set the bearing tolerance up so close they don't have to have needle bearings. That would solve one of Kevin's problems.
Hi Kevin I saw on YT somewhere (don't cringe), on some M8 cases the drain hole back to the pump scavenge inlet was obstructed. Might have been a machining step or a casting ridge can't remember. What pinged my memory was when you tilted the case full of oil and none flowed out the hole.
Thanks richard. Yes...this has been an issue on some, not all, since 2017. Saw some back then where the plug blocked more than half the port. This was corrected with a shorter plug.
But the up side to everything is the machine shop is fixing it, a big bore with all goodies are going in. Wasn't going to do everything but the engine was down all the way anyways. Might as well, so I have my dream motor! Right on!!
Thanks for another great video. I got lucky with my M8 107 tear down as I was able to break loose most bolts with little issue. Just had to take it easy and wiggle back and forth while loosening. Those cam chain tensioner screws should be torx heads instead of internal torx. Btw, I get a little spray of oil from my back cylinder when riding hard. Should I be worried about head gasket? Anyways, thanks for the video.
If your trans cover top has a after market breather and your head breathers have a after market breather kit installed would your motor still have a sumping problem?
I'm curious about the cost for a Baxter M8 engine upgrade? I have a 2019 CVO 117ci Screamin Eagle with 50K miles on it and would like to go big. 130+ ci touring hot rod!
watch out for those eye docs. i also only have one eye but it probably could have been saved had i not had " the best eye guy around" . A piece of flange flue in my eye went though the lens and cornea but my great eye guy couldnt see anything and for the next 8 months i was in so much pain at the smallest amount of light my other eye atrophied. i had gone to the hospital two or three times in that time saying i had something in my eye but again becouse of my great doc they said if he didnt see it ,it wasn't there. finally i fired him and got lucky and fould an eye surgeon right before he was going to retire. he put me in , looked at my eye and told his assistant to cancel the rest of the days appointments and told me you have a huge hole in your eye. he put a few stitches in and the first time in eight months i could go outside. there are a lot of videos on TH-cam for eye rehabilitation. please seek and watch them . i went from wearing the heaviest cheaters to 125 to read . i see downrange just fine but i owe my rehabilitation to those videos and long walks in the woods where you use your eyes in a much better way than watching a screen or always looking at things close up.
I must be fortunate. I have a 2009 CVO Softail Springer with 110b engine with 33,000. The engine is bone stock and I’ve run the piss out of it doing burn outs and regular topping it out at @ 107MPH or so. I’ve gone through two clutches and 7 rear tires. I mean I’ve beat the shit out of this thing and never had any engine issues and it still pulls relatively well. 😅
Enjoying the videos Kevin. I'm in England and new to harley davidson, after many years of mostly hondas. Love my m8 street bob, 107 build date June 2019. The bike has only covered 1500 miles and I don't plan on any major modifications, cobra slip ons fitted that's it. What if anything can I do to help prevent oil/sumping issues in the future, really love the bike and want it to remain trouble free. Many thanks.
My lasr HD was a 2010 Road King. I didn't make many mods and never messed with internals because I don't need a hot rod. I recently purchased a M8 114 in a Heritage classic. If I don't mess with anything other than slip-ons, will I have venting or sumping problems? I don't ride hard, but I do ride 8-10 hours in a day when I travel.
HI Kevin, love the videos. Would holding a soldering iron on the lifter cuff bolts heat the bolt enough for easier removal? Unfortunately, I don't have an induction heater.
Just spitballing here, what if you held the lifters high enough that you could slide the cam out, could you then remove and install the lifters from the inside and never have to mess with the lifter cuff bolts to begin with?
My 2017 107 FLHP rear head gasket probably looked just like that one before it blew on a 105 f day interstate ride , 9,600 miles on the bike . . . . In the process of replacing it (I went with cometic mls and did the front cylinder while I was at it) I found 4 different sets of instructions for tightening the head bolts: 1. The instructions in my 2017 shop manual. 2. The instructions in Harley's service bulletin TSB M1509 dated spring 2020. 3. The instructions from cometic that came with the gaskets. 4 The instructions from s & s that came with their head bolts. It would be a wonderful thing to know how you do it. Other thing, one cylinder stud on the rear cylinder unscrewed from the engine, at least 3 cylinder studs turned a good bit (as much as 1/2 turn on 1) when I retorqued them and once again I found various instructions for dealing with them (use this loctite, use this other loctite, check torque to 20 ft lbs, check torque to 25 ft lbs, always install new, don't install new, etc) if you are feeling particularly merciful it would be nice to know what if anything you do in regard to the cylinder studs. Love this video!
Hi J. I'll tell you how I do it...and have not had any issues. Use stock studs, not new. Install with a dab of red loctite and torque to 20 ft lbs. always install new head bolts. oil on threads and shoulder. Sequence torque to 9, 14, 22, 35, 42-45. Wait about 15 mins, torque again to 42-45. This is very similar to S&S. We have also found less bore and head distortion.
@@KevinBaxter THAT, is good information. Thank you! (And I know I'm a big sissy + none of my business, but I wish you would wear safety glasses at work now that I know you only have vision in one eye)
My M8 is a 2021 Road Glide Standard 107ci with Stage 1 installed at new purchase. I have 39,000 (mostly Touring cross country) miles and wonder what problems to expect? 🏍💨🏍💨
I usually have 2 Cross Country Rallies I attend every year. So riding is fun. Only thing that came up with this model was the current recall for the brake light. I have two more years left on Pre-Paid service (with unlimited mileage) and a 5 year Extended Service Plan from Harley-Davidson. So many more happy miles ahead. 🏍💨🏍💨
great video....WHAT cam will give me the best throttle response? I just installed an s&s 465c cam in my 2022 fatboy 114ci and after I take off there is plenty of power in all areas but when the motor is warm and I come to a stop now I have to blip it several times to get accurate throttle response. Not looking for the most horsepower but more response. I thought if anyone would know it would be u.
@@KevinBaxter so, hypothetically, if you had a FatBoy 114, which cam would you put in yours if you were only doing a stage two, and didn’t have a huge budget to replace everything?
Are these newer Harley engines trash? I mean breaking down at around 20-30 thousand miles? Is this normal with all these sumping and crank problems? Not looking to start a fight,but at what these bikes cost,then have to go thru the engine this quickly?
there are hundreds of thousands of bikes out there....certainly most of them dont have issues. i make videos so that when folks do have an issue, they have information as to how and why it can happen and what it takes to fix it.
Well I’ve had my 2018 M8 going on 5 years with no problems yet, must have got one that was built after Deer 🦌 season. Had a rattling noise inside the factory pipes , pulled them off and there’s a ball that rolls too an fro inside both pipes! Bought a set of Cobra 🐍 shorty’s an installed , now I’m getting 54 mpg with a better sound and way better mileage 😊 plus I’ve started sniffing my crank case more often 😂
Also I found out for some unknown reason HD appears to be using green retaining locktite on cuff bolts. I have had to heat every one I've torn down. Many times I feared breaking but heat and careful wrench work got them out. Kinda makes ya think someone screwed up on locktite spec.
Hate that happened to you! I had to chuckle a little. I've actually never broken one because of the method I use to get them out (will be in the video)...so I had to Google to find a pic with a broken bolt. Needless to say, I get calls all the time about what to do when they break. This should help folks. Thanks for commenting!
I guess my question is “for an engine meticulously maintained” why didn’t he catch the transfer issue much sooner? There is almost a Zero chance this all happened at once, and leads me to believe he never checked his Trans oil levels. HD mechanics miss this all of the time since they pull drain plugs and don’t check any levels first.
@@TheMarkMillerGroup the M8 wasn't meticulously maintained....the 110 from yesterday was. the carryover can happen very quick. the other issues really couldn't have been prevented with maintenance.
I wish I had seen this before I did my cam chest. I wrung off one of the lifter cuff bolts and before that one of the lifter block bolts head stripped. I got them both off but I don’t think my wife ever heard those words coming from my mouth. I’ll buy one of those induction heaters right away.
Just enough heat to burn off excess thread locker. I guess an induction heater is gonna become a fixture in tool boxes everywhere, at least for the guys working on newer Harleys?
@@KevinBaxter I believe this should be a recall issue. In all of my 40+ years of riding, I have never received a recall notice from a motorcycle manufacturer. I do get recall notices for my 4 wheel vehicles.
So the pump was a 6 tooth rather an 8 and due to the sumping the stock parts went bad? or are they trash from the go? I would also like to know, you said putting it through it's paces, how you or what would you recommend on break in for a new build or bike. Like an F1 or should you baby it for awhile?
hello I watched your video about the book not going into detail about TDC I got a 2022 RKS im going to change the lower rocker boxes, now I know harley uses the rear cy to time these m8 motors up. im thinking getting the front cy on compression stroke first making sure the tappets are all the way down. taking the lower rocker plate off at that time putting the new rocker box on the front and rocker plate and arms, then moving to the rear using the same procedure as the front, cause im thinking if I do the real cyl last it will be timed up with the tappets all the way down making sure the intake valve opens closes then bring the cyl the rest of the way to the top and installing the rear rocker box and rocker plate and arms. would this be the safest way to do it or should I take both rocker boxes and plates off and make sure the rear cyl at compression stroke put rear together and move on to the front. thank you any input would be greatly appreciated. Michael lawton.
Sherlock, no doubt. Did not know that you had eye problems. I lost my left eye to Glaucoma, myself. I actually ride my softail to my visits with Dr, Shah, in Bethlehem. Kinda' tricky ridin' home with one "good" eye dilated. That's always a challenge. But hey, I'm 67 and I am not gonna' waste a minute of ridin' time while I'm still able. Admire you for doing what you love to do, despite the eye issue. I did motorcycle work, a few years for my friend, Joe Hollis, right down the street from you. He had a shop between the Ford dealership and Walmart. The place with the large gravel parking lot in front of a small warehouse looking building. You've probably seen it. It was dark and cold, in Winter. But, I really enjoyed it. Learned a lot. I actually do all my own repairs on my 2001 Heritage. Replaced tensioners last winter, at 38,000. Good thing I checked them. Found a piece of tensioner material in the bottom of the cam chest. Didn't have a dial indicator at the time. So, I don't know what the runout was. I will definitely check it next time. I hope it is less than 0.003. Gear drive would eliminate the problem. Have to save up for a while. Social Security doesn't allow much for Harley upgrades. Have to think about that one. Anyway, I'm local and look forward to meeting you soon. Didn't mean to write a book, Bro'. I think I need another whiskey and coke. Be safe.
Hello Kevin I am Steve baker from Gold Beach Oregon wanted to thank you for all the knowledge you share to your subscribers it's really helps me as a do it your seller have rode and worked on all my bikes since 1968 I'm now 72 still riding with your training I am able to keep the motivation to work on them myself So Marry Christmas to you and your Staff and family And a Very prosperous New Year Many Thanks
I still like my 103 twin cam. 10 years old 22, 000 miles no motor issues. Good gas mileage, 48-52 mpg depending how I ride. Had to replace battery twice, fuel pump once.
That’s a true real feelmotor
It doesn’t have any miles on it.
22k do you even ride bro?
This video is "stoicism" at its best. Thank you, Kevin, for your dedication and please take care of yourself.
Thank you so much sir.
Kevin you are a real Harley mechanic and mechanical genius
I love your videos. I learn so much but sometimes they make me regret getting a Harley. I never knew how problematic they were.
I feel sorry for the early adopters of the M8 engine before H-D addressed the issues.
I feel you man .
Man I have owned shovels, egos, twin cams and no M8 FXLRST. Starting in 1978 with shovel in a 56 straight leg frame next 87 heritage softail, to 89 springer to 93 bagger to 99 roadking, to 08 roadglide to my 2022 FXLRST. The only bike I had issues with was 87 heritage which turned out to be a bad relay, 46 years on HDs I would say that’s pretty reliable.
Man I have learned a lot of important information from your videos that I had no clue about but it all made perfect sense. Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge and educating me quite a bit.
Love my 2016 103 H.O. in my UL .. 86,000 miles still runs perfect.. replaced compensator at 56,000 miles..
Bullet proof…
As an owner of a 18 fxlr 107 learned a lot more about my bike from u then doin my own research wish I lived closer to your shop keep up the good vids Kevin and thank you for sharing your knowledge
That was one of the best explanations for that kind of head gasket fail I've ever watched. Thanks form Olympia Engine Builders.
Thank you very much James! I appreciate the kind words sir. I can rely on MLS completely with a proper finish on cyl and head....and a reasonable torque that doesnt distort the head and cylinder ;)
The scissor shape crank needs to be stronger by using press in plug on the crank pin. I did overhaul an SE 120 R engine. Same thing. A bad lifter, camshaft pump etc. trued the crank. And pressed in two +0.10 mm plug in to the crank pin. The bike now runs strong and fine. Greetings Peder
Would it be possible to put a m8 cylinders and heads on a twin cam case? I’ve been thinking about this for a while and you sir seem like the man to answer my question.
I always use Hylomar on the Headgaskets, it hasn’t let me down for 40 years now. BUT damages like these head-gaskets has also emphasize the importance of warming up the engine before pulling the throttle ☝🏻🤓
Ive never done that. I dont see how it would hurt but would be curious on high compression engines...as if may act like a lubricant and allow an MLS gasket to slip. basically, blocking the viton that the gaskets are coated with from biting into the surfaces. Glad it's certainly worked for you sir.
Thank you Kevin,.. and actually it was pure luck. I had problems with an old Late Shovel motor and since I read that Rolls Royce always used it I thought that it couldn’t hurt. It solved the problem with the Shovel and I just as a “bad/good habit” have used it since 👍🏻
Thank you!!! You explained my situation perfectly!!
Thank you for the M 8 video. I am very glad I didn't trade my bike because with my luck the new bike with the M-8 probably would have sumped and I would be visiting you again
Youre welcome Rick! We are well on the way. You have such a nice bike and you have meticulously cared for it and when were done, I know you will continue to. It's going to be even more awesome. I appreciate your kindness and patience sir.
You see better with 1 eye that I do with 4 ! But that doesnt stop me from watching your great videos . Thank you .
I broke mine off and what fun that was. I tried to drill it out so I could use an extractor, but broke the drill off flush inside. I had to buy a specialty drill to drill out the broken drill. I learned my lesson and proceeded to remove the oil pump. I then took a heat gun to the underside of the lifter block area. Heated it for about 10 minutes and was able to more easily remove broken cuff bolt and its brother.
Nice work!
I had a problem with my lifter cover bolt in the rear next to the cylinder I used allen socket that's rounded that u can use at an angle and worked great on all but one and almost stripped it
I used a regular Allen wrench and put a little heat in the area around the bolt
Little by little I got it out thank God it didn't strip all the way or snap lol
Prior to dissembly to install a new oil pump, I rode my bike for about an hour, got it nice and hot and then I removed all the screws from the lifter covers and then the tappet cuffs.
Just did some upgrades to my 2023 114. I had no issues removing the tappet guide bolts. Maybe Harley addressed the issue? I did however apply some heat to the bolts before removing.
Great to see someone doing the nose test. How it all smells can tell so much.
I'm a little surprised that you didn't use any penetrating oil on those bolts to lubricate them. Love the induction heater and just ordered one for myself. Thanks for the tip!
with as much loctite thats on these, when I've used pen oil, i have seen no evidence that it even wicked into the threads. youre welcome
Used the induction heater and laser temperature gun to montitor temp. Took it up to 530 degrees, taking screws in and out and using Kroil also as the bolt came out. Took my time and it worked out great. Using thread chaser to clean threads before installing S&S tappet cuffs and new bolts
I always heat and then immediately cool the bolt , do this three times and bolt comes out easily. This heat , cool process pushes the surrounding metal ,especially aluminum away from the bolt and when it’s cool will easily come out.The heated bolt heats the surrounding metal which then wants to expand and do to the surrounding cold metal case acting like a vice the metal will expand inwards around the bolt and become even tighter, that is why you need to cool every thing down before trying to remove bolt.
Iuv your work an videos have you ever tried heat the bolt then take an eye dropper with cold water one drop after heating had great luck with this for 52 years like the modern heater
Hi Kevin, for a Stage 2 build. What adjustable pushrods and lifters would you recommend? Thinking of Star Racing 30/30 cam.
Thanks for the tips. I will be installing a cam, etc..
Sitting here enjoying another teardown wondering why I am even considering buying another Harley Davidson with all their issues... I must be mad... I have to laugh though at you....Where is all those organizing trays for your bolts and such...Your teardown bench looks like mine....Lol... Keep up the informative videos....Thanks...
Yea I was gonna ask for that fancy tray too, which I like very much.
All the trays are FULL! LOL. Need More Trays!!!!
The dealership has replaced the lifters pushrods and cam tensioner and there is no change. Don't know if they measured the lifter bores as I think the oil is passing at a higher rate than it should. It won't pump up the lifters as designed. Also at 2500 rpm and above I get a lot of valve train noise. Taking it back to the dealership, and am going to ask about lifter bores measurements. Thanks for the video very helpful info. Have 20k miles on it and have had the problem since day one.
Another great video learned a lot I really appreciate it because I also own an M8. Thanks again
Great vid, not alot needless talking.
My m8 107 headmaster failed, the dealer did not know why, tou eluded to the fact that maybe it was over torqued at the factory, could you comment further?
It happened at 40k.
For about 400 dollars more I upgraded to a 114..
After induction heating the bolt, break it loose and then spray penetrate and let the bolt cool and get smaller to remove?
Really enjoy the tear down video. Thanks Kevin.
Glad you enjoyed it thank you.
After watching your videos I now understand why Harley has a lifetime power train warranty on their 2023 models. Unlimited years and mileage as long as you own the bike. Wise move for them and I've owned four of them.
Better read that again, unlimited mileage for 2 years.
Didn't take long to strip it down but being out of the bike and close to eye level sure helps.. good choice of fill in music. I'll be doing my first run-out test, oil pump, cam plate, lifter and cuff replacements, pushrods, and new SE8-447 cam on my RG 107 shortly (I noticed you didnt lift and and push down on the end of the shaft to check bearing play and add to the run-out value of .010) I know it didn't matter but with this one, but I not seeing many do that or mention that check. Though I heated my lifter cuff bolts (with soldering iron) but still I broke one of the two, and currently stuck at the moment with about 3/16" sticking out and about 5/8" still BURIED DEEP in High temp Thread locker.. The Idiots at HD motor company every year never seem to fail to disappoint..lol. Had they not designed the M8 with plastic cuffs in the first place I would'nt have to remove the bolts.. But finally buddy and I got the broken bolt out..
The broken bolt thing worried me so much that I bought an induction heater before attempting to put an S&S pump and 475C kit in my '23 117. The engine only had 1100 miles at the time and none of the bolts were stuck. In fact, the bolts that felt most likely to break were the damned air cleaner bolts...crazy amount of locktite on those...arrggg!. Also, apparently HD started to put the updated Koyo bearing in for the cam cuz that's what mine had in it stock. So, I dumped a few $$$ into tools I'll probably never use again but oh well, the job went well and the thing(FXLRS 117) runs great. I sorta want to get another just to play with so maybe the tools(the Amazon cam bearing tool worked just fine even though I didn't need it) will be useful. Feels wasteful to get the tools for a one-off job but you never know if you might needs them.
That motor sounds really good!!!!
Kevin, thank you very much my friend for this extremely informative tech video.
Very welcome
Long-winded fella wasn't he? I loved how you apologized for the sunglasses just before you gave him the hook lol.
What a great video, As always! Very interesting. Seems the M8’s do have, like many previous Harley engines, have issues! Maybe one day they will get it right or at least listen to great shops like yours!
Thanks Matt.
Just as soon as the motor company has all the bugs out of the M8, they'll come out with the next generation. 😉
Isn’t this incredible that highly skilled supposedly engineers put this out there
Kevin there is an Allen plug on bottom of m8 cases at oil pump pickup crossover between Cam galley and flywheel galley. Fueling has found these plugs to be threaded too deep into cases restricting oil flow from flywheel galley to pickup port on oil pump. In fact they sell a shorter plug to allow proper flow to pump pickup. You can't dethread a pipe plug hole so only option is shorter plug. The stock longer plug in hole can restrict flow at high rpm which will cause sumping issue. May want to show everyone that plug and explain better than I tried.
I have seen that video and their resolution sounds very reasonable, glad that you reminded that issue so that maybe Kevin checks this bolt when he tears down the crankcase in the next episode, thanks sir.
This issue goes back to 2017 really. Not all are affected and its something we certainly check and have replaced plugs with shorter ones when necessary.
Thanks for reply. Never questioned that you always check plug engagement in cases. You are a seasoned master builder who does it right every time. Just thought you may want to show members like myself this issue in detail.
@@magic4221 0
Great tool that induction heater!
I've heard of those 124 and 128 breaking compensator sprocket sand transmission gears?
I learn so much watching your videos, thank you !👍
thank you!
These videos are like the holy grail.
Love your vids, thank you!
In this one you mention oil transfer from the transmission to the primary. Could you please do a video focusing on that issue, if hydraulic or cable actuated clutches matter, and how to really fix the problem?
Just wondering. If the M8 problems outweigh the twin cam or vies versa ?
each have their issues. Sumping has been the biggest with M8 and that wasnt as widespread of an issue with early to mid Twin Cams.
Upgraded the cam chest and lifters on my 2021 M8 last winter. So happy I did not have trouble with those lifter collar bolts. But regardless, an induction heater will soon be in my tool chest.
One other takeaway from this video was your mention of excessive torque values on at least one of the bolts. Do you have a table of your own recommended torque values for the M8? Or some general advice such as going to the light side of the HD recommended range?
My bike is doing good. Nothing wrong with it. But, you got me thinking on trailering my bike from California to you just to work on it
Well thanks! We have and have had bikes in here from all states and many countries.
Awesome video, have my 2021 ultra limited 114 in the Harley Davidson dealership getting my collapsed lifters replaced and they broke the bolt holding the lifters from twisting. Sure wish the mechanic was as switched on as you are. I am a retired Chrysler master mechanic and I cannot remember the last time I broke a bolt on a customer car. What make of induction heater do you have? Where did you get it. Keep up the good work, am sad I live so far away from your shop. I live on the western side of Missouri north of Joplin,or I would have taken my bike to you. Love your videos as I learn some good teck tips. Thanks Jack
some good advice your a pretty smart man enjoyed
Kevin, I really enjoyed this video. Been a mechanic for 45+ years, mostly diesel now, and appreciated your calm demeanor. I have a question though: I’m thinking of buying my first Harley, but have serious reservations about engine reliability, and Harley’s irresponsible way of handling warranties. What could you say that would ease my worries in this regard?
Hi Robert. My best advice would be to have the bike checked out by a reputable tech, do leak down, cyl pressure test, inspect for leaks and check for sumping. Ask for service records if they have them. All these things are what I would do before any major purchase really...not just an HD. Also...have a look at our warranty program. It allows and COVERS even aftermarket parts and accessories. We both know you will be making it your own ;) Best of luck. Dont be afraid....enjoy it!
Buy a Kawasaki instead
Harley’s are actually very reliable, don’t be afraid to purchase. Just do your maintenance and upgrade wear parts on schedule.
Awesome video as always. can you give us the manufacture of the heater?
Hey Don. There are a lot of companies that make them. Google induction heater bolt removal and you'll see all sorts. Thanks.
I watched ur video and had no idea the complexity of the throttle . however this issue wasn't nearly as apparent with the stock cam. Throttle response was the very first thing I noticed, also almost everyone who shares a video here has mentioned slower or faster throttle response when they replaced a cam.
We may be calling two different things throttle response. If what you mean is, when you quickly smack the throttle you dont feel a drastic change in rate of acceleration, then it can come down to cam choice. Cam profiles have a direct affect on that. Short duration, early intake close, etc can greatly improve this. One would have to compare a stock cam to the cam they choose. If the new cam has a later close, longer duration and they also went from stock exhaust to a wide open performance exhaust, some initial punch could be lost depending on the combination, choice of parts, tuning, etc.
Jim's has a new lifter that doesn't use needle bearings. It's called the steadyroll. Jim's purchased a machine that can set the bearing tolerance up so close they don't have to have needle bearings. That would solve one of Kevin's problems.
come home from wrenching all day, then watch Kevin wrench 🤘⚡🤘
Great video and info...thank you so much! Im trying to get an expert opinion on the new 135 crate engine from HD...is it worth the 8k??
Wow the off center head gasket is a big F up. How do you believe it got that way? Is it just from over torquing the head bolts alone?
Always learn from your videos Kevin, thanks for sharing your knowledge
Thanks for all the info! Hope your eye feels better!
Thank you Greg!
Hi Kevin I saw on YT somewhere (don't cringe), on some M8 cases the drain hole back to the pump scavenge inlet was obstructed. Might have been a machining step or a casting ridge can't remember. What pinged my memory was when you tilted the case full of oil and none flowed out the hole.
Thanks richard. Yes...this has been an issue on some, not all, since 2017. Saw some back then where the plug blocked more than half the port. This was corrected with a shorter plug.
But the up side to everything is the machine shop is fixing it, a big bore with all goodies are going in. Wasn't going to do everything but the engine was down all the way anyways. Might as well, so I have my dream motor! Right on!!
Kevin, Great videos! I love the technical stuff your presenting. I am puzzled though why you were showing a 2 lobe cam for an M8?
It's amazing in this day and age that these issues are even issues.
What happened to quality control?
Do you have to check runout before installing a darkhorse compensator ?
look up Darkhorse video. yes, check runout.
Thank you sir
If im going to run a woods cam Kev should i use woods lifters or are the S&S better your advice would be gold mate
Thanks for another great video. I got lucky with my M8 107 tear down as I was able to break loose most bolts with little issue. Just had to take it easy and wiggle back and forth while loosening. Those cam chain tensioner screws should be torx heads instead of internal torx. Btw, I get a little spray of oil from my back cylinder when riding hard. Should I be worried about head gasket? Anyways, thanks for the video.
Glad you did. Agreed. Certainly yes...check for head gasket leak for sure.
Haha...Joe was funny! Love your videos. I always learn something new.
Thanks for watching!
If your trans cover top has a after market breather and your head breathers have a after market breather kit installed would your motor still have a sumping problem?
I'm curious about the cost for a Baxter M8 engine upgrade? I have a 2019 CVO 117ci Screamin Eagle with 50K miles on it and would like to go big. 130+ ci touring hot rod!
Hoorah. Keep it up.
Safe rides. 👍🤜
watch out for those eye docs. i also only have one eye but it probably could have been saved had i not had " the best eye guy around" . A piece of flange flue in my eye went though the lens and cornea but my great eye guy couldnt see anything and for the next 8 months i was in so much pain at the smallest amount of light my other eye atrophied. i had gone to the hospital two or three times in that time saying i had something in my eye but again becouse of my great doc they said if he didnt see it ,it wasn't there. finally i fired him and got lucky and fould an eye surgeon right before he was going to retire. he put me in , looked at my eye and told his assistant to cancel the rest of the days appointments and told me you have a huge hole in your eye. he put a few stitches in and the first time in eight months i could go outside. there are a lot of videos on TH-cam for eye rehabilitation. please seek and watch them . i went from wearing the heaviest cheaters to 125 to read . i see downrange just fine but i owe my rehabilitation to those videos and long walks in the woods where you use your eyes in a much better way than watching a screen or always looking at things close up.
Thank you sir. Hate you had troubles. Advice appreciated and noted.
I must be fortunate. I have a 2009 CVO Softail Springer with 110b engine with 33,000. The engine is bone stock and I’ve run the piss out of it doing burn outs and regular topping it out at @ 107MPH or so. I’ve gone through two clutches and 7 rear tires. I mean I’ve beat the shit out of this thing and never had any engine issues and it still pulls relatively well. 😅
Enjoying the videos Kevin. I'm in England and new to harley davidson, after many years of mostly hondas. Love my m8 street bob, 107 build date June 2019. The bike has only covered 1500 miles and I don't plan on any major modifications, cobra slip ons fitted that's it. What if anything can I do to help prevent oil/sumping issues in the future, really love the bike and want it to remain trouble free. Many thanks.
keep an eye on engine heat, proper maintenance...that's about the extent.
My lasr HD was a 2010 Road King. I didn't make many mods and never messed with internals because I don't need a hot rod. I recently purchased a M8 114 in a Heritage classic. If I don't mess with anything other than slip-ons, will I have venting or sumping problems? I don't ride hard, but I do ride 8-10 hours in a day when I travel.
HI Kevin, love the videos. Would holding a soldering iron on the lifter cuff bolts heat the bolt enough for easier removal? Unfortunately, I don't have an induction heater.
unfortunately sir it wont be even close.
Just spitballing here, what if you held the lifters high enough that you could slide the cam out, could you then remove and install the lifters from the inside and never have to mess with the lifter cuff bolts to begin with?
My 2017 107 FLHP rear head gasket probably looked just like that one before it blew on a 105 f day interstate ride , 9,600 miles on the bike . . . . In the process of replacing it (I went with cometic mls and did the front cylinder while I was at it) I found 4 different sets of instructions for tightening the head bolts: 1. The instructions in my 2017 shop manual. 2. The instructions in Harley's service bulletin TSB M1509 dated spring 2020. 3. The instructions from cometic that came with the gaskets. 4 The instructions from s & s that came with their head bolts. It would be a wonderful thing to know how you do it. Other thing, one cylinder stud on the rear cylinder unscrewed from the engine, at least 3 cylinder studs turned a good bit (as much as 1/2 turn on 1) when I retorqued them and once again I found various instructions for dealing with them (use this loctite, use this other loctite, check torque to 20 ft lbs, check torque to 25 ft lbs, always install new, don't install new, etc) if you are feeling particularly merciful it would be nice to know what if anything you do in regard to the cylinder studs. Love this video!
Hi J. I'll tell you how I do it...and have not had any issues. Use stock studs, not new. Install with a dab of red loctite and torque to 20 ft lbs. always install new head bolts. oil on threads and shoulder. Sequence torque to 9, 14, 22, 35, 42-45. Wait about 15 mins, torque again to 42-45. This is very similar to S&S. We have also found less bore and head distortion.
@@KevinBaxter THAT, is good information. Thank you! (And I know I'm a big sissy + none of my business, but I wish you would wear safety glasses at work now that I know you only have vision in one eye)
Was there any oil left in the tank?
What is the brand of that heater for the bolts
My M8 is a 2021 Road Glide Standard 107ci with Stage 1 installed at new purchase. I have 39,000 (mostly Touring cross country) miles and wonder what problems to expect? 🏍💨🏍💨
39000 on a 21!? Wow...nice. You ride a lot! LOL. Just keep riding sir. Seems you have yourself a good one.
I usually have 2 Cross Country Rallies I attend every year. So riding is fun. Only thing that came up with this model was the current recall for the brake light. I have two more years left on Pre-Paid service (with unlimited mileage) and a 5 year Extended Service Plan from Harley-Davidson. So many more happy miles ahead. 🏍💨🏍💨
Okay, after watching the rest of the video I realized that cam was from Rick's 110, not Darrell's M8. Sorry about that! Keep up the great videos!
great video....WHAT cam will give me the best throttle response? I just installed an s&s 465c cam in my 2022 fatboy 114ci and after I take off there is plenty of power in all areas but when the motor is warm and I come to a stop now I have to blip it several times to get accurate throttle response. Not looking for the most horsepower but more response. I thought if anyone would know it would be u.
a cam wont provide throttle response in general. FBW will always have a slight delay. See my video on Limp Mode...it explains why.
@@KevinBaxter so, hypothetically, if you had a FatBoy 114, which cam would you put in yours if you were only doing a stage two, and didn’t have a huge budget to replace everything?
Are these newer Harley engines trash? I mean breaking down at around 20-30 thousand miles? Is this normal with all these sumping and crank problems? Not looking to start a fight,but at what these bikes cost,then have to go thru the engine this quickly?
there are hundreds of thousands of bikes out there....certainly most of them dont have issues. i make videos so that when folks do have an issue, they have information as to how and why it can happen and what it takes to fix it.
Well I’ve had my 2018 M8 going on 5 years with no problems yet, must have got one that was built after Deer 🦌 season. Had a rattling noise inside the factory pipes , pulled them off and there’s a ball that rolls too an fro inside both pipes! Bought a set of Cobra 🐍 shorty’s an installed , now I’m getting 54 mpg with a better sound and way better mileage 😊 plus I’ve started sniffing my crank case more often 😂
Also I found out for some unknown reason HD appears to be using green retaining locktite on cuff bolts. I have had to heat every one I've torn down. Many times I feared breaking but heat and careful wrench work got them out. Kinda makes ya think someone screwed up on locktite spec.
I dont recall seeing green. Most I see is white or yellow.
I like the 124 runnin in the back ground,,,Thats Elevator music for me,,,
What is the best synthetic oil
For 2006 FLHT twin cam???
How can I receive Baxter’s tool box decals
Is overheating the reason for the tight bolts?
cant say that for certain.
Good content! Now I know! WYKYK! What's with the shades homie?
OH MY GOD YOU USED MY PIC OF WHEN I BROKE MY LIFTER CUFF BOLT!
That thing was HELL. Cost me 433$ to remove.
Hate that happened to you! I had to chuckle a little. I've actually never broken one because of the method I use to get them out (will be in the video)...so I had to Google to find a pic with a broken bolt. Needless to say, I get calls all the time about what to do when they break. This should help folks. Thanks for commenting!
I guess my question is “for an engine meticulously maintained” why didn’t he catch the transfer issue much sooner? There is almost a Zero chance this all happened at once, and leads me to believe he never checked his Trans oil levels. HD mechanics miss this all of the time since they pull drain plugs and don’t check any levels first.
@@TheMarkMillerGroup the M8 wasn't meticulously maintained....the 110 from yesterday was. the carryover can happen very quick. the other issues really couldn't have been prevented with maintenance.
@@KevinBaxter ahhh makes sense. Thanks for the amazing videos and information!
I messed up. I broke my bolt for lifter cuff … I can get it out. Any advice?
I wish I had seen this before I did my cam chest. I wrung off one of the lifter cuff bolts and before that one of the lifter block bolts head stripped. I got them both off but I don’t think my wife ever heard those words coming from my mouth. I’ll buy one of those induction heaters right away.
sorry you had that issue sir.
Awesome, love your stuff man.
thank you Don!
Where is your shop?
I got lucky, my bolts came out easy on 2019 Street Glide Special 114.
Do you run a roll tap into the holes that were tight?
yes. all threads are chased, cleaned, and checked before final build
Just enough heat to burn off excess thread locker. I guess an induction heater is gonna become a fixture in tool boxes everywhere, at least for the guys working on newer Harleys?
There is a plug on the bottom side of the case that extends too far and blocks oil movement, which in turn causes sumping. Have you come across this?
Saw for the first time back in 2017....and have seen many since and corrected on each build.
@@KevinBaxter I believe this should be a recall issue. In all of my 40+ years of riding, I have never received a recall notice from a motorcycle manufacturer. I do get recall notices for my 4 wheel vehicles.
So the pump was a 6 tooth rather an 8 and due to the sumping the stock parts went bad? or are they trash from the go? I would also like to know, you said putting it through it's paces, how you or what would you recommend on break in for a new build or bike. Like an F1 or should you baby it for awhile?
I didba video outlining break in about a year ago.
Hope everything works out for you eye sight
hello I watched your video about the book not going into detail about TDC I got a 2022 RKS im going to change the lower rocker boxes, now I know harley uses the rear cy to time these m8 motors up. im thinking getting the front cy on compression stroke first making sure the tappets are all the way down. taking the lower rocker plate off at that time putting the new rocker box on the front and rocker plate and arms, then moving to the rear using the same procedure as the front, cause im thinking if I do the real cyl last it will be timed up with the tappets all the way down making sure the intake valve opens closes then bring the cyl the rest of the way to the top and installing the rear rocker box and rocker plate and arms. would this be the safest way to do it or should I take both rocker boxes and plates off and make sure the rear cyl at compression stroke put rear together and move on to the front. thank you any input would be greatly appreciated. Michael lawton.