i really hate how tomboys are often automatically put in the categories of "pick me", "cool girl" or "not like other girls." like just let us women be.
Ughh right, I was just watching The Take's video on the tomboy trope, and all the comments are just about "pick me" girls, or how they don't like when the trope makes the tomboy seem better than feminine girls. Like can anyone just acknowledge that in these movies and irl it's the masculine women that get flack not the other way around
This. While there are issues being a “pick me” (or if there’s a lack of variety in writing characters), the main issue is putting down others, especially for approval by someone else. Often times, there are differences in NLOG posts and where they stem from (some really do just feel insecure/not-belonging because they’re different than social norms or how they’re treated, some question gender identity, etc- not all, I would even argue _most_ NLOG posts do not actually put down women for their femininity or for being “”normal””). While there are complexities in social issues and I agree there is a raised mentality against femininity, people who are comfortable with themselves may just be who they are- “basic”, “different”, or whatever. I was real concerned people would start calling anyone just being themselves a NLOG/pick-me and look where we are now. Some of us really are just masc, gender-nonconforming, trans, etc; Just leave people be if they’re not shitting on other people 😤 ffs. Why do people gotta act like every form of identity and expression is some excuse or performance, like-?? There’s no winning, huh
'Pick me' girls are the ones who put women and themselves down for male validation. Ultra feminine women as well as tomboys can be 'pick me'. Actions and words speak louder than hobbies and fashion
@@icebear7555 I also notice some people who invalidates tomboy girls and call them pick me or NLOG. Don't invalidate women' style because you don't like it.
i think they never put a femenine character or a tomboy character just to exist as women, they usually fight for who pleasures men the most and tomboy girls are tomboys in a way men are still comfortable with and can find attractive or change completely to fit beauty standards. they're not tomboys for themselves, because they just express like that, there's a man who finds them "cool", "different from other girls", "funny", "interesting", and they CARE about this male validation.
I really hate how tomboy characters are always given a "girly girl" makeover and suddenly, the guy they like (or just guys in general) realizes they exist and bend over backwards for them. Then the newly formed "girly girl" stays a "girly girl" for the rest of the movie. All because the guy she likes finally likes her back. Edit: And half the time the guy isn't worth shit, let's be honest here.
That makeover was a bad idea. I know that the intention was to make the only female characters get along, but geez.. she was way prettier before the 🌠 glow up 🌠
Being honest, if a guy only starts to like you after you completely changed the way you present yourself to something he likes, he isn't worth shit on principle.
An episode of Hannah Montana always stuck out to me as a pre-teen; the one where Lilly likes a guy, so Miley tries to get Lilly to change into more girly, but by the end of it it doesn't work out because Lilly's crush liked her for who she was, and didn't want her to change. As a tomboy who always found myself around people desperate to give me a makeover, it meant a lot to me that my favourite character wasn't "changed for the better" and was appreciated for herself. Whilst as an adult, I like to embrace my "feminine" and "masculine" side, I feel like that expectation that I needed to change as a teen always deeply hurt, and it would've been nice to see more tomboy characters just allowed to exist
I agree with those sentiments as well . I also hate that they deem having curly hair and glasses as “ugly” or “unattractive”,,, like wtf thanks for ruining my self esteem and other young girls out there with that.
@@sapphicvampire8504 I didn’t really focus on makeover scenes that much as a small kid and I think curly hair and glasses look pretty, but that may just be my preference (I’d need to talk to other people who haven’t seen makeover scenes to see if they have different views)
Also, I hate makeover games where in "before" the characters have some sort of unique style and after it's just modern bullshit. I played a game where a girl lived in a deadass victorian styled house, and dressed herself as a vampire and the "after" was just a modern simplistic style house, and dressed the girl in some ',professional' styled clothes. I almost had a stroke. I wish the 'makeovers' were for showing the characters how to chose clothes/accessories in their own style, not just the be one big "conform to the current fashion and beauty standard" bullshit.
Just hit section two and yes! Makeover movies always made me extremely uncomfortable as a kid, and I’m an amab enby who stereotypically should be infatuated with the concept. I dunno, maybe I was upset that someone has to pave over their natural identity to fit someone else’s standard. Maybe I was mourning a loss of tomboyishness I personally identified with. Maybe I was just a little boy scared of femininity that I’d been conditioned to think of as alien and I was just lamenting the loss of an nlog girl in a typical male-gazey sort of way. Whether or not my feelings are scummy or pure, I’m glad that tomboys, gnc, and transmasc people are not getting lost in our re-embracing high-fem culture in modern feminism and the gender revolution.
the "transforming from ugly to beautiful and then getting the guy" trope, really exposes how many men (also other people but significantly men) do not respect or even give women who they are not attracted to the time of day. i know for a fact that 95% of my guy friends throughout my life would not be my friend if they were not somewhat attracted to me.
I have noticed women do this as well. Not to the same extent but many women are considerably nicer and acknowledge girls they believe are “pretty” more.
Or how, when the gnc woman is seen as attractive, movies present her as a "challange" and with an attitude for the smooth-talking guy to break-in and wear down, then she becomes somehow completely different and girly when he wins and they get together
@@allurajane4979 Well, It's a good thing that I'm asexual and value friendships with everyone. Besides, societal and cultural factors encourage toxic masculinity onto men, which lead to harmful behaviors. I really want to change society.
a girl once said to me I was a “not like other girls” girl because i’ve taken up skateboarding and im really into it so I was like ouch shawty. you said it perfectly, having a non feminine interest is just seen as trying to please the male gaze. in reality it’s a sport and a hobby and not something I feel safe or comfortable doing all the time, especially alone
I relate to this a lot. I liked “boy things” growing up and it lead me down a road of becoming a not like other girls bc i got upset that i couldnt just do these things and just BE a girl. I wanted male acceptance in these hobbies bc they dominate them and i wanted friends with similar hobbies. Better to be alone than with ppl who hate other women imo. And as a cis het woman, an ex friend would say i looked like a lesbian bc i used to wear wear, get this… a fucking beanie and a flannel. Bro what? I think we gotta throw out the idea that certain fashion makes your sexuality suddenly non hetero… ffs.
@@karabii NOOOO. 😂. The world's perception of lesbianism is so ridiculously flawed. I dont understand why we can't just dress in a way that makes us feel comfortable.
i think a lot of people believe women only think about men and everything they do is about men therefore women can't have interests, because women exist for men and are just trying to impress men
That reminds me. I remember seeing this one comment on a Gator the skater video, and it was about this girl talking about how she loved skateboarding. And one of the the replies went like "I bet you think that you are so not like those other girls" and it was so annoying.
this video was very much needed. it's so annoying how people have turned the "not like other girls" meme into shitting on any girl/femme person who isn't traditionally feminine and pushing this idea that all girls should be feminine in some way.
Exactly. A “not like other girls” is a girl/woman who has a superiority complex over being “quirky”, and puts down other girls/women who are more “basic”. It is NOT any girl/woman who is GNC
As a hyper feminine woman myself I’m also pissed off that people are using not like other girls to shit on tomboys. Like this is exactly how the not like other girls trend started in the first place! Just let women and femmes be!
What annoys me is how people are put into narrow boxes. “Girly girl” who likes clothes and makeup and dislikes sports Non-girly girl - who wears jeans and no makeup , likes sports etc There are plenty of of women who wear dresses one day and jeans and a T-shirt the next. Or who like sports and shopping. I know a cheerleader who is also a member of the chess club
Also shoutout to the girls who are neither/nor. I don't really care for makeup, shopping or other feminine things, and I have no interest in traditionally "masculine" hobbies (chess, sports, video games, comics, etc.) either. We exist too! lol
There's also much more than just those two sides. I'm disabled and thus not as into sports, but I'm super into technology, I'm into more androgynous clothes, and I like to be creative with it. It's so odd how much people's expectations change based on what someone looks like,
oh please, you're the biggest supporter of the take. you're often on their own vids claiming how tomboys "demonize" girly girls or something. you're probably salty with all your pink dresses you don't get the attention you want.
@@pixieinx men are not 'okay' with gay women. theyre fetishizing lesbian porn but i can be the first to tell you as a lesbian. men are not treating me any better. probably worse. sorry but I get really fucking annoyed when non-lesbians or non-bi women try to tell us that we are somehow privileged because men love the fantasy of having sex with us
@@everaster9383 I completely agree, as someone whose pan-sexual, every time I tell a cis-het man their first thought is threesome, when I get uncomfortable they decide to berate me or get mad 😐
adding on to the idea of tomboys "maturing into feminity", i think that homophobia (specifically lesbophobia) plays a huge part. more masculine styles / gender nonconformity are heavily associated with lesbianism, and as young girls (and nonbinary ppl) grow older they are expected to distance themselves from that and conform to heteronormative ideals of beauty
Yep. I got made fun of sooo much for looking like a lesbian as a kid and ppl assumed I was one just because I had short hair, didn’t wear makeup, and didn’t like “girly” clothes. While being gay is completely normal and shouldn’t be an insult or tied to a particular look
and it all comes from the idea of it being "a phase" too or we don't knowing ourselves enough and when we grow up we know ourselves better and "mature" and become "normal" again
It's kinda funny, because me being a nonbinary transmasc, most of my childhood was me expressing myself within hyperfeminity, and as I'm growing up and maturing I've been becoming more masculine in my expression and comfortable with myself. There were so many parts of myself that I buried because I wanted to seem normal and like a girl. and only now that I know who I am, I've been digging those thing back up and taking them back.
@Maddie Atkinson Yep this. I was definitely considered a tomboy by everyone in my life growing up and fully embraced that identity and I wanted short hair to look more boyish but my mom wouldn’t cut my hair shorter than the bottom of my ears because of what I can only presume lesbophobia and/or transphobia. As an adult I would say my personality and interest are more fluid. I have a tomboy personality but an interest in historical fashion. I avoid makeup like the plague but I’m a heterosexual cis woman. Honestly I fit more in in nerd culture than anywhere else in the world. It’s a safe space for me to love anime, fantasy, history, folklore, costumes etc. because no cares if I present myself as traditionally feminine. They just care that I can gush about how much I loved a show or hold an intelligent conversation about the minute details about a particular period of history. I love not fitting in with main stream culture because I’ve never cared about it. I just love being myself 🤓🥰
@@222fairydust Holy crap that's exactly what I'm going through atm. I've figured out that I'm non-binary, but I'm scared of coming out to anyone cause anytime I would express feelings of gender dysphoria, I'd be told "you're still young--you'll be comfortable with your body when you're older"
As a Navajo women who express herself with “tomboy” to “rough soft fashion” it’s mind numbing when my gender expression leads to people questioning my sexual or gender. My own parents (who are western leaning) telling me to dress more “sweet” or “girl doll like” rather then a plaid lesbian, but I’m ASEXUAL. And my own culture believes in comfort over details for daily clothing, we dress up with lace or our traditional beautiful dress during important events out of practically and reason. I can go from wearing my brother hoodie and plaid to a flower dress with cowboy boots. To be frank “America” has not bother to fully understand or even learn the beautiful relationship between of Native American gender expression, fashion and practicality.
Ayyyy what up. Lets not mention the 4-5 genders in our OWN culture + the pan-indian 2 spirited ppl. My parents are extremely western leaning as well and somehow proud of our culture without being aware that Navajo culture encapsulates everything that they stand against lol I want to rip my hair out
I know!!!! While I am white, I get sort of... nervous(?) when I dress less femininely than my peers. I’m Aro-Ace but I think I still have a strong desire to be straight-passing, and feel uncomfortable wearing “atypical” clothing around other people.
@@alexrose20 yes - after selecting male as a gender on my google and youtube I've seen so many of those videos pop up and I have to say not interested every time. I'm glad I've found these videos though :)
@@hughgleave I switched my gender to male today so I can stop getting those relentless period product and bra ads. I wonder if I'll start being recommended alt right shit now lol
@@alexrose20 mine is female and it took years of just searching what i want instead until the algorithm built itself around my searches edit: i should add that ive had a yt account for maybe 8 years and my gender identity is much more different/complicated now from then lol.
*as a poc nonbinary person, it’s sad that the only androgynous look I’ve seen in the media growing up were girls who look like Ellen Degeneres. while it’s slightly better now, we need more representation!!! I appreciate your take on this.*
Representation is so important. I’m white but I don’t relate to most androgynous models because they’re super thin with no curves. As a size 8/10 with a very curvy body I feel excluded.
exactly! i also find it very telling of white supremacy, fatphobia, and femmephobia that androgyny - something that is understood by many to be ""neutral"" and default - is white, bone thin, and incrediblyyy masculine and andro-centric. Additionally, why is it that most of androgynous models seem to be masculine cis white women, yet if a male-passing individual were to be just a _tad_ feminine and were to deviate from only the most rigid of masculinity - they would just straight up be read as feminine: never even having the access to androgyny as a whole? i feel like this also plays into people seeing being non-binary as a thing for _,,women (lite)""_ and have a hard time grasping that amab ppl can be nonbinary too but thats a whole other can of worms....
@@madelinevlogs5898 honestly. You get androgynous model rep in high fashion (ie a vogue mag will deffo have them) , androgynous models in high Street fashion campaigns are in the minority. If you look at online fashion giants such as Boho or sheIn, the models tend to be 'curvy'(with a small waist) , tan, and blonde, feminine with that Instagram look. You might like the brand 'Lucy and Yak'.
@@kitty4107 'seem to be masculine cis white women' I have seen a few cases where these models have been outed or came out as trans or intersex and its ruined their careers.
An unpopular opinion, but I'm not totally against Allison Reynolds experimenting with femininity. It's just that the 'makeover' scene could've been better executed. Then again, the main characters of "Breakfast Club" ARE awkward teens and that Claire Standish only knew 1 version of femininity. If anything, 'dark/gothic feminine' would've been a better makeover style for Ally.
As a straight, cis man, I've always seen the problem with how tomboys are portrayed, but always had a hard time putting it into words. You do an amazing job putting it into context and explaining the problem clearly. Seeing female heroes/protagonists that are supposed to be independent and strong still being portrayed as if they're trying to appeal to my sexuality, rather than my sense of adventure, justice, or compassion always made me uncomfortable. I can remember feeling like this even back as a kid, though not understanding why it made me unhappy at the time.
I’ve noticed how we did a 180 with this. People on the internet talk as if tomboys were the norms and being feminine the minority and so feel comfortable to mock women who are more masculine, as if it was revolutionary . But the reality is that feminity is sill highly rewarded. When I dress feminine I can notice how different I am being treated. So let’s not pretend that there being masculine as a woman gives you any type of clout in real life, it doesn’t. Women should dress the way they want regardless. I just wished the new anti pick me mentality didn’t put down masculine women as much. No body is dressing for men, but when you associate being a pick me with attributes of women who dress unconventionally, you make it hard for the women who dress and act this way to like themselves.
i always hated the “growing out of it” thing because i know so many butch women and masc women irl, but there’s no visibility for them in media. (unless it’s about demonizing gnc adult women 😑🚬)
When you said tomboys are always portrayed as children and adolescents I felt such a sense of validation and realization. I’ve been infantalized and desexualized for my GNC traits my whole life. Seeing the tomboy “grow up” to be feminine or have a makeover and come out “beautiful” honestly broke my heart each time I saw it, they always looked wrong to me and I think some part of me recognized myself in that.
i was literally thinking about miss congeniality for this whole video then you mentioned it.. like i'm so tired of tomboys being "undesirable" until they present as more feminine. also bts reference! my queen
I had such a weird experience as a child, I was quiet, liked dresses and pink and only really had female friends, but I've always played sports and didn't wear makeup or want to kiss boys. I felt like I was feminine in all the 'wrong' ways. I think the cool girls always performed feminity in a more grown up way. The term tomboy was like, immediate coolness.
Also, I feel like tomboys are way too often associated with homosexuality. Like you say in the video, tomboys are seen through a heteronormative lens, and since they don't fit this typical binary, then they must be gay. Gender expression can overlap with sexuality, but they're not tied to each other. But since this whole narrative says that a woman should present in a feminine way to attract male attention, then they must not want their attention, and therefore have to be gay. Gender expression and personnal expression are a way of showing on the outside who you are on the inside, it's not a way of attracting potential mates. We should be allowed to dress the way we want to, without having any ties to external validation and approval.
So true. My boyfriend and I both have some gender non conforming interests, and I know people have asked him if he's gay when we were younger. We're actually both on the asexual spectrum, so people often will end up asking us weird stuff, or we have to explain our attraction in different ways. Just let us be us?
I think an important thing to explicitly acknowledge is that this association is killing two birds with its line of reasoning. Woman not feminine enough = not good enough for men/not available to men = she's gay = gay=bad. A tomboy who is or is assumed to be a lesbian is not more accepted, just judged through both the lenses of misogyny and homophobia (which is itself rooted in misogyny!) which punishes personal expression whether it's tied to sexuality or not.
I honestly hate his so much like every girl in the media that has a boyish style is termed "tHe lEsBiAn iCoN" amd I’ve been called lesbian multiple times for being a single tomboy
as a cis woman who bounces around masculine and feminine styles I can notice how people treat me differently depending on how I look. I go to the mall with baggy pants and shirt, I get treated relatively normally. I wear a skirt, I get asked if I need help more often, cashiers talk to me more. Its very subtle and maybe I'm just thinking too hard about it, but it really seems this way
I was that little girl growing up that would be climbing trees and making mud pies in sparkly fairy wings and glitter 😂I feel like being a tomboy is more of an attitude than a stylistic choice
@the cutest snail same omg I like cute flair dresses and outfits of varying levels of femininity but at home I like dungeons and dragons and playing video games of stuff like Star Wars and other more guy-oriented content.
I’m very feminine and love guy-oriented things, and yet my mother tried to say how me being feminine is a reason she’s not so close with us (Daughters) and why she likes her son more. And I like so many things she likes too, she’s such a fucking pick me.
@@41052 that’s real shitty, especially for her to have an open bias on her own children and not even see the double-standards/hypocrisy 😤 sorry you have to deal with a childish parent like that
@@MEOWMIX3DS i think he means that when someone realises how much likes they got on a comment and says "Edit: omg this is the most likes i ever gotten"
I really wish they had let Tai stay a tomboy in the movie clueless. It would have really tied all the loose ends in her and Cher's fight. They would just agree to disagree and respect boundaries. Tai's style could be refined and cleaned up, but stay sporty or boyish 💅🏿💗
i kinda agree but i think in the end tai instead incorporated her own sense of fashion from how she was "transformed" from cher's little makeover. i think they did indeed respected each others' ways in the end. it's quite subtle, and maybe it's just the way i interpreted it, but i think in the "you're a virgin who can't drive" scene that's where cher realizes the mess she made by making tai turn into someone she's not. in that scene, and a few before that, like when tai snubbed travis at lunch and she started to dress very much like cher. you know, preppy, skirts, and plaids. then in the near ending at travis' skate board event, where cher and tai reconciled, tai opted for a cute, plain and simple style- nothing how then-meddling cher would've dressed her like - preppy and everything. she started dressing for herself (sorry this is long lmao)
@@fairsuns I agree, I think if she went full athleisure for the '90s that would've been fashionable and tomboyish at the same time. But I do understand how you saw a compromise in her style at the end 💅🏿
As a GNC lesbian going on 28 years of being a “tomboy” - this was really well said and super appreciated! No one I’ve seen on TH-cam has been able to discuss this topic well. There seems to be a weird idea that GNC women are adored and praised by society like you said - and when asked for examples in media they’ll name someone like Megan Fox in Transformers. She is fantastic, but not GNC in the least in that movie. She just likes cars! I feel like people think “Woman with traditionally masculine hobbies = GNC”, but that’s just not the case. The reason Megan Fox’s character is liked in that movie (and other characters in that “guy’s girl” archetype) is explicitly because they have a masculine hobby but perform femininity enough to still be desirable to men. GNC and butch women do have a general “look” (granted it’s a wide umbrella) and should be presented that way in media - and that’s ok to say and to want! It’s annoying that it’s danced around so much. We GNC women have actually spent a lot of effort to look the way we do contrary to popular belief - we are not “unfashionable” or “uncaring” about how we look! It is a style and demeanor that is desirable to many WLW (and def some other people of all genders!) and carefully curated by the women who choose to present that way. The butch identity in particular has a long and super interesting history. It’s really hard to find examples of truly GNC women in media, and even harder to find examples that treat them as desirable, fully realized characters that actively CHOOSE and enjoy being GNC! Great video once again!
Exactly! Your comment really resonates with me because I'm butch (24 years old) and I hate the assumption that I just "Don't care" about my appearance or about clothes in general because I'm actually really proud of my wardrobe & I feel like I worked hard on it. Like to me personally being masc isn't about neutrality, it's part of who I am and I love it and I want to express it to share the joy I take in it!
I really liked your points of how the media always makes being a tomboy something you're supposed to grow out of. I remember very clearly still being a high chair age, throwing a fit because my mother was telling me that I needed to "behave like a lady" and I was in full meltdown screaming that I was not a lady because by then I already knew that I didn't fit in with the expressions of femininity. Years later I swore off dresses and skirts, around end of 3rd, start of 4th grade, and had made my tomboyishness so clear that at an xmas event with my sunday school class where we were supposed to make cookies for the whole church, the like self selected girls in charge decreed that there were too many people in the kitchen and they kicked all the boys _and me_ upstairs where we played pool and watched wild wild west. My lack of femininity was obvious and they wanted me where I 'belonged.' But by middle school those same kinds of femme girls were split between trying to give me make overs constantly or having decided I was a threat because me and the boys could joke around and have easy conversations. It's beyond frustrating that this behavior effectively lasts into adulthood, as more femme women disregard my lack of femininity but are threatened because I'm straight. Society is more willing to accept lesbian tomboys, because then they don't threaten the social order as much. Making it more complicated is knowing that I have pretty privilege, and how people get genuinely mad at me for my gender expression. I've literally been told "but you're too pretty to be a scientist" as if bone structure dictates gender expression (or that femme people can't be smart and capable scientists?!?). It's this dumb catch 22 where as a (straight) tomboy you're demanded to at least be pretty, but if you are you're a threat. Every one of my long term relationships has ended because the dude realized he doesn't actually like women without femininity.
I think it's important to have discussions about how femininity can interact with pretty privilege. Sure there is a lot of demonization of feminine women in media and portray them as the ''mean girl'' in contrast to the more tomboyish main character. however, both are played by very much conventionally attractive women, the only reason the quote unquote nlog girl's behavior is socially accepted is because she still looks feminine (ie: conforms to mainstream beauty standards). In real life, tomboys who aren't ''beautiful'' are not accepted at all, and the same goes for non conventionally attractive women who have very feminine presenting (as for hair, clothing, etc). I have come across women who said people who reacted negatively to them when they dressed up not because of being overly feminine itself but because they were not ''beautiful'' and by dressing up they stood out and thus ''stepped out of line''.
@@madelinevlogs5898 tbh I think I just realized why I hate wearing dresses/ make up is because I feel like I'm asking for attention for being pretty/ultra fem, when that's not me. I know I'm not conventionally pretty or ultra fem- I feel like a fraud.
Something interesting (read: depressing) that I notice in how people interact with me: I'm not interested in traditionally feminine or conventional interests or style, and don't pay much attention to the gender presentation of my wardrobe as long as I like how things look and feel on me. But I have a naturally very "feminine" appearance (thin with a young-looking face and big eyes) so when I grow my hair out people who don't know me assume I'm much more conventionally girly and fashion-forward than I am. I find that whether I'm meeting people for dates or friendship or even new work colleagues, women I haven't spoken to before will often start off being really nice, complimenting me, all smiles, but if a traditionally feminine topic comes up and I give an honest answer that doesn't fit social norms, or if I'm asked about my looks and make it clear that I don't follow trends or wear makeup, a lot of women tend to cool toward me and start side-eyeing and avoiding me. I've been told I'm "rude" "cold" "weird" or "intimidating" when I know for a fact that I wasn't being anything of the sort. I'm a people-pleaser, and I always aim to speak to everyone around me from a place of empathy and good humour. I have no beef with the femmes, I think they're fun and cool and look great. But there is an element of gender conformity that sees non-conforming individuals as threatening, and this belies that a lot of expressions of traditional femininity aren't coming from a place of progress and empowerment and self-expression, but are really just revamped elements of conservative womanhood. It's interesting to watch the switch in attitude from viewing me as a feminine woman to viewing me as a non-traditionally-feminine person, sometimes in real time I can literally see another woman's eyes glaze over as she realises I'm not *actually* girly, I'm just a twig-shape d*ke with a baby face.
It's so incredibly depressing how I've literally been screamed at for wanting to be masc-presenting(on two different occasions), been called frumpy, and been called a lesbian by guy friends who erased my bisexuality (or maybe they were negging 🙄). IMHO "Not like most girls" trope is 100%*projecting*, because of people just hating teenage girls for acting like teenage girls (I'm 33 FYI, and I STILL wince at the very thought of maybe I'm just faking who I am for attention, when I've literally experienced all of these things that make who I am)
Thanks for this! Almost nobody talks about the struggles tomboy women face. Pretty much every video that talks about the struggles of feminine women typecast more masculine presenting girls as nlogs or frame their masculinity as immature or they assume masculine women are privileged over feminine women
I really wish people would just let us be. I have always been tomboy-ish (almost 25 years old, def didn't grow out of it). I do feel and identify 100% as a woman, I'm just not interested in most things that are considered traditionally feminine, incuding the way I chose to clothe myself. The most hurtful thing for me is when it's not just strangers looking down on me, but my own family, like my parents constantly nagging me: "if only you'd wear some makeup", "if you wore different clothes" etc., which often end with "then guys might even like you!" ... as if I just exist to look pretty to guys, ugh. Or my grandmother constantly asking when I'll grow my hair out again (I've had it short since I was 14 years old). I remember maybe two or three years ago in summer, I decided to wear a dress because it was super hot, and that summer dress was super light and comfortable. I didn't wear it for looks, just for comfort, so I wouldn't be too hot in the sun ... And someone commented that I finally looked like a woman ... like that shit HURT. I AM a woman, why do I have to look a certain way to be considered one?
It’s interesting and fun reading comments about how people grew and often appeared more tomboy-ish at a younger age and slowly grew to appreciate/embrace more femininity! It was kind of a reverse in my case where I started out openly dressing and showing interest in ‘girly’ stuff but grew to be more masc (overall ambiguous/mixed), perhaps I was just wearing whatever I liked back then (I still like sparkly/colorful/pretty things) but now am more conscious of my identity and presentation (confidence in my style is found in other stuff). Wouldn’t say I’m pretending or forcing myself to like other stuff, but some things are separate in what just appeals to me vs what I would actually want to have/wear.
Same. I used to force myself to dress more girly because only being around feminine straight girls in my conservative small town made me think that’s what you had to do to be pretty. As soon as I got out of there I realize I actually want to look nothing like that
For a slightly different version, I wore almost only skirts/dresses as a kid (part by choice, part due to my mother), but I was climbing trees in my granny boots and shredding stockings frequently because I mostly played pretty roughly. Fast forward to age 9/10, it was nigh impossible to get me into a skirt or dress, and with very rare exception, has been that way over 20yrs (the mood strikes me occasionally, or work requires it). I have a traditionally masculine job, kind of always been 'one of the guys', have the dry wit and dominant personality usually expected of men, have very few 'traditionally feminine' interests, and really only dress in women's clothing for work since I'm both big and tall, and work appropriate options that fit are limited unless I spend a mint. Tldr: wore skirts and dresses but still climbed trees (was a tomboy), until I stopped wearing dresses ~25yrs ago (but still climb trees)
I feel like I can say this as a traditionally feminine presenting woman. It’s honestly really frustrating how feminism, a movement characterized by its intention to eradicate gender roles has kind of been co opted by conventionally feminine women who feel targeted by women aren’t as conventionally feminine. I’m not saying “femininity bashing” doesn’t exist or that I’ve never felt it, but you can’t pretend that gender non conforming women don’t face discrimination all the time. There was a girl in my school who joined the men’s football team because there wasn’t a woman’s team and was ridiculed for it. I’ve had a few more gender non-conforming friends who’ve been told multiple times that they’ll “never find a man” because of how they dress and behave. The stigma is real.
On a smaller sense, in all those makeovers people with glasses were seen as ugly and dorky I still have trouble seeing myself as pretty because I have to wear glasses. It's such a stupid thing but this thing is like... Engraved in my brain somehow.
There's a rhyme my dad told me when I was a kid that they apparently used to say a lot when he was an undergrad -- "girls who wear glasses don't get many passes." I think he thought I'd find it funny, but... 😕
Short haired, tomboy-ish adult here. I've increasingly been assumed to be either trans or masc lesbian. I'm neither. Just an ordinary gnc woman and the comments and questions made to me are getting exhausting.
As a person who identifies as gender fluid I can assure you that from my little experience in live I always found difficult to explain to other people my gender. And I always ask myself why someone cisgender can be comfortable in society with their gender without confronting shame or judgment but people outside the binary can’t? Like, live and let live. Hakuna matata or something
Genderfluid here too and totally agree. I had so many dumb battles as a kid and I felt so let down. Why do I get this and not you? I’m ten. You’re an adult. Do you really want me to perform when I could just be?
As a gnc individual, I have experienced so much criticism from my family and peers. This video perfectly describes my feelings. Luckily times are changing, and maybe within 50 years or so, the masculine and Feminine gaze won’t be as powerful. Thanks for the video! Love you!!
I remember there's a certain Hannah Montana episode in which Lilly gets asked out by her crush and she gets a make over to look more feminine and "likable", but when she shows up at the date he tells her that he liked her for who she actually is. Lilly being a tomboy and that episode's plot didn't mean much back when i was a kid but it certainly does now, when i think about it. Thank you so much for the video~
I can say I've had several fantasies of makeovers as a child so I could be "fixed" and finally have "style" and have something I would have in common with other girls I was a tomboy and still kinda am (but not really) and I've always had more masculine interests in video games and digital media and I've had fantasies of makeover as a child that I would finally become skinny and beautiful and learn about makeup and clothes and accepted by the people around me Thank you for making this analysis because as you said, tomboy adults aren't represented in the media Also I really like your philosophy/idea/attitude that femininity is a spectrum and I've noticed that I've adopted it subconsciously in recent times. Really helps me navigate things and let's me feel happier in life.
My mom thought I'd just magically turn into a straight, feminine girl as soon as I turn 20... I'm currently proving her wrong, by working toward transitioning, because I'm not a tomboy, I just don't feel comfortable expressing femininity, because I'm not a girl, I'm a feminine man.
Ugh yes I find this so irritating because everyone enforcing toxic masculinity and all of these stereotypes makes it so you feel as if you can't portray your femininity without people thinking you're a girl or saying you're trying to be 'special' by saying you're a guy, when you honestly just feel comfortable presenting feminine but that does not change the fact that you are a guy and always will be. There is rage inside of me due to this and I don't know how to let it out so um sorry about the rant, heh.
I consider myself a tomboy and I've found it hard to find characters in fictional media I can relate to, it makes me feel alone even though I have other friends in the real world who are GNC. One thing that really irks me about tomboy characters is when they undergo feminization and "grow out" of gender nonconformity, implying that it's bad not to be into makeup, dresses, heels, etc as a woman. I've never liked wearing makeup or most dresses and I just like to wear comfortable, baggy clothing. I can't recall ever being treated any differently for the way I present myself because I believe there are some feminine qualities in my presentation (long hair, long eyelashes and trimmed eyebrows, feminine face, etc) that play into it. (And sorry if my comment is sloppy, English isn't my first language :v)
a friend sent me a tiktok of a creator talking about how troy was "scared" of Sharpay because she was passionate about theater, it was a video to "empower" feminine "loud" passionate women but by putting down less feminine women, so Gabriela was called boring (by the creator) because she was passionate about math (she's not a tomboy, I know, I just find it interesting and an example of how more feminine women are praised a bit more sometimes) and they were putting women against women FOR A MAN so...
The isolation/rejection is real. Other women tend not to want to be your friend, and are sometimes straight up passive aggressive?? And if you’re like me and are romantically interested in men, they tend to want nothing to do with you outside of being bros. It’s depressing. That “not good enough for anyone” feeling penetrates deep :/
When I was a teenager I had to call myself a tomboy because I was too fat to feel comfortable in feminine clothes or too poor to afford them. As an adult I lost weight, and I'm interested in wearing different types of clothes. Like some days I want to dress and wear makeup like I'm going to the red carpet, other days I want to dress like I'm in the 40-50s, other times I want to dress like a medieval peasant or a Viking warrior and other times I want to dress manly.
I really loved this video, and just a comment on the end (is it too much to ask for a plus sized woman to not be the butt of the joke) I think Melissa McCarthy is a great example of this. I noticed that in Gilmore girls, her character of Sookie never makes jokes about her weight, or hardly any self deprecating jokes, maybe about her clumsiness but anyway, but in more recent roles they almost always write her in as the funny fat friend. In Gilmore girls she’s seen as beautiful, smart, funny but in so many others it’s just “haha I’m fat that’s the joke” I really love how you pulled attention to this and other issues!!
I think just as how all this can't be divorced from gender things, it can't be divorced from sexuality. Especially the prevailing idea that kids can be tomboys /until/ they grow up. As kids, it can be acceptable for them to not be for men, but by (especially older) teenagehood, they're supposed to have begun their heterosexual development. Overall, it promotes the idea that your kid isn't gay, they're in a tomboy phase and will straighten up once they see the light of heterosexual attraction that's supposed to come with growing up. Like the empowered woman of the past, a gay woman can be seen as sexually unavailable to men and thus not useful, which aligns with the other things in the vid. However, in my opinion, it makes a lot more sense why there's a fear around it when you recognise the homophobia. When at best you'd consider your kid being gay as too big of a challenge to the future you wanted, and at worst as a disgusting, evil thing, it gives the person in a non-sexual relationship with the tomboy a reason to promote feminine change in that tomboy.
Pink was my favorite color as a kid, then as I got older and closer to preteen and younger teen-aged I hated pink for a long time, now as an adult it's absolutely one of my favorite colors again. I definitely wanted to distance myself from traditional femininity for a long time because I saw traditionally feminine hobbies and personality traits as lesser than traditionally masculine ones.
'There are no adult tomboys' is the perfect explanation for why I, an agender person, never had to question my gender until people started trying to categorize me as a woman rather than a girl as I became older. Because as a kid or teen, "girl" when referring to me really meant "tomboy", which, close enough -- tomboys are the closest thing people conceptualize as gender-neutral anyway, so, you know, that was fine. And then it wasn't. And I had to figure out why. Spoiler alert: it's because gender makes no sense to me to begin with! And having people trying to gender me is uncomfortable as hell! Anyway. Media portrayal of tomboys sucks, and media portrayal of agender people... doesn't exist. Gotta love this society! -_-
Hello fellow agender person! I also felt really left behind when all the girls in my school started becoming feminine and outgrowing the tomboy phase. I’m hoping it’ll get easier at my future school with a high lgbt population
Being a girl who's always been a tomboy, went through the phase of the "I'm not like other girls" straight to being a full-time feminist.. I can relate to this video more than I would imagine :D Trying to convince my relatives that I'm not going to straighten my curly hair just because I look more feminine that way, or that I don't want to wear make-up every day, and that wearing sneakers and ripped jeans with oversized male t-shirts isn't a crimeeeeee! And that I'm not gonna grow out of that phase (cuz I've been this way for 20 years lol) even when I'm the last girl on Earth who's single or "not enough"... and even if I decide to change, it's going to be my personal choice which depends solely on my mood, my taste and my feelings not your PRECIOUS OPINIONS.
Yes same!!!! I've had that EXACT same experience. But also what really hurts is when friends are like "Oh you're FINALLY becoming feminine!!" whenever I show even a LITTLE bit of interest in fashion. It hurts, because it implies that girls can't show a SLIGHT interest in clothes without being feminine :/ but then with guys it's just a normal thing that nobody tells them "oh you're finally becoming feminine!!" I don't have to "finally" become feminine and I hate that everyone is just waiting for that or jumps on ANY sign of that.
@@Someone-ig7we Relatableeee 😭 and when someone comments on your slight interest like that you just automatically pull back and feel like you've "betrayed" your style/taste :')
Tbh I only end to watch commentary videos by poc (especially women) because I want to hear their side since I am already VERY aware what white people think lol (As a white person myself I am saying this)
i'm a queer nb trans AFAB person who has a lot of stereotypically "feminine" fashion interests & such but like tbh???? my interests don't invalidate my gender AND my fashion communities (the j-fashion and pastel and kawaii fashion communities) have THRIVING LGBTQIA+ representatives online who stick together & fight the BS collectively w/ our QTBIPOC fellow enthusiasts xD and uhhh.... i do very much appreciate this
@@Allison_Hart your description of your gender is so valid and makes a lot of sense to me!!! i think i relate that way similarly to my internal sense of gender, and i take the way i present as an opportunity to express creativity, in fashion and art, and not necessarily because i feel like a "girl" or feminine, but because it's something i enjoy wearing and helps me feel confident! i think also for me, i only really experience social dysphoria, when others assume my presentation is indicating something that it isn't, or if people invalidate my sense of nonbinary and trans identity in general.
I was a huge tomboy then but I got tired of being treated like one of the boys by guys so I started dressing more feminine. Also there is this stereotype that black women especially dark skin black women are masculine and I don’t want to be perceived that way. I feel my style now is a mix of tomboy and girly.
i have a huge problem with my femininity till this day, with me also being a black woman, its so hard cause i'm ALWAYS getting called a man and i hate it so much; sometimes i feel like i'm not worthy of being feminine :( but my style is also similiar to yours, mix of tomboy and girly
It also seems lately like any woman who isn't traditionally feminine and says anything about it at all just gets labeled an NLOG or a pick me. Like do people not realize how unacceptable society finds it to not be feminine as an adult? I've spent a great deal of my life feeling like I wasn't "girly" enough. I'm not trying to be cool, or different, or put down other girls, I literally just want to share my experience as someone that's been ridiculed for not fitting the standard of being feminine.
That quote about being “enough” for cishet men without being “too much” hit hard! You’ve succinctly articulated this weird, elusive feeling that many women and femmes experience but can’t exactly describe. I feel like with each new video in your femininity series you get more and more nuanced and inclusive in your discussions about the male and female gaze. Stuff that I as a feminine presenting cis woman have never even considered until now even though I’ve been trying to tackle this topic for years. ❤️
I used to love being a tomboy but then my auntie made me think being a tomboy meant I was a lesbian and that being a lesbian is bad. So I switched things up and tried to force myself into femininity and lollllll suffered for years with an eating disorder trying to be perfect. Oh childhood... what fun
thank you for taking the time to listen to gender nonconforming people for your video essay. there are so many videos out there about the topic of tomboys, “not like other girls” or “pick me’s” usually made by cisgender and gender conforming people who often place themselves on the pedestal of being the “other girl”, because growing up as a tomboy and eventually growing into my butch lesbian self i am today, i *am* and *was* not like other girls and demonized by them(and really society as a whole) for not fitting in. i’m not sure where else to lead this but thank you again! ❤️
You’ll probably be very happy to here that a kids show actually addressed this. They had the normal episode of the girl trying to make the tomboy more feminine, but instead of portraying it as a good thing, they showed how much it hurt the tomboys feelings. The episode ending with the girl apologising, and the two male characters asking if they could do the feminine stuff with her, she of course said yes! (The show’s called Amphibia btw, it’s a Disney show)
I think movies really ruin us that that we have to be this attractive woman who is feminine enough to be considered beautiful and for men to not be uncomfortable about being attracted to them, but also not too girly because girly=bad. But also if women dares to not care about traditional femininity and also dosent care about still somehow being attractive to the dudes. Basicly the mythical "Cool girl" made us think that we can't express ourself for ourself unless man are happy with it. In short this is great video and pink is so your colour
A recent tomboy character who I love? Wendy from Gravity Falls. I think that show also managed to avoid all the standard pitfalls and just continuously let her be her own character. She never has to change, be more girly, or get the guy. (also her talk with Dipper after his crush confession is phenomenal writing)
I always loathed 'traditional femininity' because I always felt forced there and was always told that I couldn't do anything that was 'masculine' in any remote way
my dad and mom always tell me i’ll grow out of it, same to my sister, they pick out clothes for me that i won’t wear and then get upset when i don’t cause i just don’t like to wear feminine things, it’s not i like to express myself. i just wanna feel comfortable in my own skin.
the idea that every woman must subscribe to a certain standard of femininity and beauty standards is also put upon trans women: while transphobes don't view trans women as women, they often use their gender expression or their looks to invalidate their identity as a woman, like when a trans woman dresses more tomboyishly and gets harassed for it because "if she's tRyInG to be a woman, she should at least dress/act" like one.
As a transgender man, it was really interesting to hear a cis woman's take on this topic, you have a lot of really refreshing insights that I really appreciated! Also your editing was really engaging, and can't wait to watch more of your content!
as a non-binary person, i feel pressured to dress more masculine in order for people (even my friends) to not forget that im not cis. i love dressing fem but the moment i do so ppl just assume that im cis again. its tiring. edit: *AGENDER*, not nb (: (but the point stays the same)
As a tom boy myself, I hate how people in general try to put me in one of these categories: A) You are lesbian B) You are a trans man NO I am a cis gender woman that does not like wearing makeup or dresses, and by the way I'm maried do a cis man. SHOCKING, isn't it? Edit: This video made me remember so many situations. Like having fights with my mother because I did no what to wear a girly outfit. Or when I had to use a bride's gown, make up and hair for a school theater thing, and she took so much photos, I mean FILM PHOTOS were expensive AF, we only took photo of very important and meaningfull things, like your dauther finaly behaving like a girl. Don't let me start about how I was completely undesired by boys in general, and mocked by girls...
Yes! When I was a teen I constantly had people assuming I was a lesbian. I didn’t mind dressing up every now and then, but it wasn’t comfortable to me.
Or also: C) you are a pick me girl I’m a trans male but before that I was a female tomboy and everyone picked on me because they thought I was being a pick me, when I wasn’t even doing it to get attention I was just doing it because I was being myself.
"Why don’t you wear makeup?" It takes time and effort, and I don’t feel comfortable wearing it. Why? Well, lipstick leaves traces on the food I eat, and I don’t wanna ingest my lipstick. Don’t tell me to stop eating, I am a human being and I need food to survive. Also, I touch my face a lot. If I put a beauty product on my face I will inevitably touch it and get traces of it on my fingers, or worse a glove if I’m wearing those at the moment. And to top it off, I don’t feel any personal benefit from doing this. It doesn’t make me feel prettier, and it takes away my comfort instead of enhancing it. Sure, some people enjoy it and I respect their preferences. It’s just not for me. Why is that associated with having a superiority complex again? -Me, if someone ever asks that question in an accusatory way
Yoruba here. Never learned that tidbit about our culture till today. Not that it makes my parents less toxic, but it adds a new perspective to my tomboy childhood (and adulthood?). Thanks 🙏🏾
You can get the label easy by wearing pants and climbing trees, especially if you grew up in the 70s or 80s. I had short hair, but would also dress in skirts. I was a tomboy. I never wanted to be a guy. I was a feminist. :) It was a mixed bag of things.
I wish people would stop auto-labeling tomboys as gay or trans. these people are expressing themselves through their clothing. they didnt say anything about being trans or gay let them tell you what they are because they know.
What's even more frustrating for some straight, cis girls that identify as tomboys is that they're occasionally expected to transition to male even if they don't actually feel like they are a man. Sure, they have those hobbies and interests, but that doesn't mean they want to be a man.
@@flutenanyidk1806 As a cishet girl I have explained my gender feelings to a group of LGBT+ people and they would always say "well obviously you are transgender" or "obviously you are nonbinary." It's fucking annoying because I felt like I wasn't allowed to just BE as a woman, and now a group of people who I thought would be understanding think I must be something else entirely! It doesn't matter who it is. It always seems like there's a judgment from most people when the topic of womanhood and gender comes up. Why can't I just be who I am? Women just can't exist and people don't get that straight, cis girls can have complicated feelings too. Makes me damn uncomfortable.
@@IHaveNoMouth Wow! It is a real thing! I mean, I thought it was, but that was mostly an assumption. I'm sorry. That sounds really frustrating. If you want to vent a bit more and get it all out, I promise I won't judge you. I hope you'll be able to find people who do get it.
I really hated the pressure from my own mother and other girls my age to become more feminine. I grew so tired of it, I became a "not like the other girls" kind of gal. Now I think I've found my place, I don't really hate all feminine things, I've found my way to express myself.
I actually hate the pushback against "not like other girls". That trope arose for a very valid reason. People have forgotten that until only maybe the last 10 years, there was so much pressure to ONLY present as feminine and as doing everything to attract the male gaze. There was a complete unacceptance that young women could have interests that included sports, gaming, etc, and that being interested in those wasn't tied to one's sexuality or gender expression. Yeah, I agree absolutely that the pendulem definitely swung too far to the side of demonizing ultra fem girls and the quirky girl trope developed a whole other toxicity and relationship to male gaze. But for young women, including myself, (and this includes many who are on the spectrum) "not like other girls" best described the experience of we had of having varied interests that went beyond what was considered "normal" for girls and the negative effects that came from not being accepted because of our differences. Denigrating "not like other girls" feels like erasure of our lived experience. I hope things are starting to balance out better, and folks are recognizing that having varied interests and styles just make us our own unique, well rounded person, irrespective of our gender identity or sexuality.
@@cincocats320 The thing is that I hated girly things and constantly mocked them because I wanted people to know I wasn't like that, I wanted to be taken seriously. The internalized misogyny was strong.
@@shockingheaven It really sucks that you felt so pressured. It sounds like you adopted nltog basically as a defense mechanism, and I think that's what happens to a lot of young women. Maybe it feels cringey to look back upon, but honestly, I think you can give yourself a break. Everyone does and thinks things as they grow up that feel mortifying to look back upon (at least anyone who is self aware does). It is also just part of our process of development to try on different identities and I think it is natural as part of that process to negate other identities that seem to be in conflict. Ideally people reach a point where they find that sweet spot where their identity feels balanced and truly expressed, and it sounds like you have. If they aren't able to, for wharever reason, it seems like that is where longterm trauma and mental health issues can start to arise.
@@cincocats320 Thank you. You summed it up pretty well. I mean, I wasn’t naturally inclined to ultra feminine stuff, but now I can wear makeup and skirts on my own personal way.
As a nonbinary fat person who dresses for my own preference and comfort and has been terrified of having to "transform" to even just get a job has terrified me and hearing you address it makes me feel so validated and seen.
Y’Know, it feels like women and girls can’t be “too feminine”, nor can they be “too masculine”. Like we have to fit into a box. It feels pretty horrible. Although, I somehow moved past the point of caring what people think of me (unless it’s genuinely good criticism).
I am glad you posted this but been watching videos about niki Philippi situation so it’s good to watch a video about this !! Even tho theses topics aren’t light it’s so nice to watch and get a break been trying to get into the commentary genre on my channel love watching videos like this 🤍
Adult Tomboy. The amount of ppl who assume I'm a lesbian is 🙄 Like just ask. My parents thought I would grow out of it, especially after having a child💁🏿♀️. N yes I had a makeover done on me; for a school project(we got an A), everybody thought I was going to stay in the girly clothes and makeup afterwards.🙅🏿♀️
I find tomboys interesting. I was called one by family repeatedly as a kid, despite the fact that I was more traditionally feminine as a very young child. It was never in a demeaning way, but I remember hating being called it, because it felt like I was being equated to a boy which I was very much against at the time. As I've gotten older, my fashion style has persisted and remained tomboyish, with a simple t-shirt and jeans. However, my mom in particular had many failed attempts to make me dress more feminine as I grew up; things like forcing me to pick out skirts to buy that I never ended up wearing, pointing out more cutesy or girly articles of clothing, stuff like that. Now, I don't remember a ton of my past. However, the time I began to look and act more like a tomboy was around the time my parents divorced. This, mind you, was right after kindergarten (the summer after). Following this, I entered a long depression that I still struggle with today. Along with my father generally being negligent and saying to my face that he'd "replaced" me, I was also bullied in school. When I wore nice, feminine clothes, I'd get picked on more and more until I stopped wearing them entirely. It's only been in recent years that I realized my tomboyish nature and tendencies came not from a genuine desire within myself to be/act more androgynous or masculine (though it's certainly more of a choice now, as I identify as somewhat greygender/genderfiuld), it came from my trauma and depression as a young child. Though of course not everyone's story is like mine, I think that most people don't even think about why a particular person may have the qualities of a tomboy. Trauma is relative, and emotional or mental damage is still experienced by most everyone. Sure, you can be a tomboy just because you feel like it - if so, more power to you! But, for those more like myself, who were ostracized into ostracizing ourselves; the representation of tomboys in the media as a phase to grow out of rivals the sheer disregard for basic decency and understanding presented similarly with bisexuality and asexuality. People can be whatever they want, and it isn't anyone's place to police what makes a person valid.
Thank you. I'm in my 30s and you just helped me realize why I felt increasingly out of place when I grew up. People accepted me as I was when I was young even through high school, but in college I was expected to "grow out of it." As a cis-gendered hetero-female I wanted to be seen as feminine, but I wanted to still be me. These things were no longer compatible.
Another example of the 'makeover' trope would be Hermione in the goblet of fire - despite her maybe not fitting into the 'tomboy' stereotype, she is required to 'dress up' in order for Ron to see her as a possible love interest.
Before I go into a rant I want to say that I really love the series of you going deeper into the topic of femininity as I don't feel that it gets covered enough in the way that you do it. As someone who grew up as a tomboy, but since has found more peace with incorporating traditional femininity in my gender expression while still preserving some of the tomboyish sides of my personality etc I have so many mixed feelings about the topic of tomboys. And I apologize for the wall of text in advance :D I have had so many confusing experiences from people treating me as a boy when I was a kid for simply being raised by parents that let me do whatever, to traumatic events making me resent the little femininity I had at the time and becoming more tomboyish being almost like a rebellion. Also feeling resentful during my teenage years thinking there is nothing inherent about being a woman that requires one to express one's gender by wearing skirts etc. I felt frustrated by my femininity being revoked as I was called trans by other people as an insult (which obv was very problematic and de-legitimizing to anyone who is trans as well as making someone who is cis feel like they don't belong anywhere as I did not see myself being one of the boys or even wanted to be one) and treated as tho being feminine was only this one thing and it resulted in me often arguing to validate myself by stating that you can still be a different version of feminine without wearing skirts etc. I was desperate for people to understand that being a tomboy and being cis were not mutually exclusive and that I viewed myself very differently from the way a non binary or trans person would view themselves. I do hope that now that we have a better understanding of trans peeps that it isn't used as an insult to be trans and that cis women who don't fall into an ultra feminine category don't feel like they are being excluded as you def feel like you don't belong anywhere as you feel like a woman and still want to be viewed as one while not expressing yourself in a stereotypically feminine way. When I was 16 I went through a phase of taking part in feminizing myself as doing these unprofessional photo shoots with friends just for the fun of it was a big thing for a lot of my peers and my friends. While I definitely enjoyed having done that and it was a fun experience. I hated that it created this situation from everyone that knew me as a "wow she can actually look pretty" and being treated as a late bloomer simply for my friends doing a make over of putting me in a dress and putting make up on my face for this one shoot. It didn't feel like I was myself in the shoot so I had no idea how to feel that way while being still me after that was behind me. This threw me into years of feeling not enough in many ways till by the time I was in my twenties I would often hyperfem myself to alleviate what I now view as gender dysphoria from the perspective of a cis woman. the sense that I feel more comfortable with myself now if I hyperfem myself to escape not feeling enough. I have been trying to balance it all nowadays as I do feel the whole "pick me" and "not like the other girls" convo is both a curse and a blessing as def some aspects of being a tomboy feel like catering to guys while some aspects are simply just a tomboy being one as it feels more like who they are and not because it scores them browny points, but because its just how they naturally lean. I feel that all that I said probs doesn't make much sense as for the past few years I still have had no clue about how I feel about the topic and it gives me a headache each time as I don't know if the tomboy in the context of cis women expressing themselves in gender non conforming way is going to be resolved. I take issue with trans women needing to hyperfem themselves as well to be accepted as women and I am glad to see that men as well are doing their own "tomboy" thing by experimenting with make up, hairdye and jewelry among many other ornamentation more tho it does feel more like an online thing. I think the key to solving this weird idea of gender expression and gender identity being linked too closely is to see more people doing side steps both cis and trans peeps imo. I fully believe there are a lot of trans women out there that are tomboys but still are women. I want to see it being valid to be both of those things as well as neither. But gender expression has become such a convoluted mess that maybe there is no solution and being a tomboy will always be existing on shaky ground.
female masculinity is often seen as a disinterest in heterosexual romance rather than any kind of gender expression. this is why it's most acceptable in children, followed by elderly women. those are the times in a woman's life that she's least expected to perform heterosexuality by making herself desirable to men, and when she faces the least homophobic backlash for refusing to do so. almost all the old ladies with crewcuts i know were tomboys as little girls and i wouldn't be surprised to find a lot of the women i know who 'grew out' of being a tomboy will age right back into it. i wonder how many more gender nonconforming straight women would be running around if we managed to get it through our heads that gender presentation and sexuality are not the same thing
I’ve been a “tomboy” ever since I was old enough to dress myself. I’m 29 now. I’ll never forget this one time I was wearing a beanie and a hulk hogan shirt and my dad’s coworker was like “is that your son?” and my dad goes “…. She’s a girl” 😭😭 I just sat there and pretended I didn’t hear
I was accidentally that tomboy/rebel at my school who wowed everyone at our formal (Australian prom I guess?). My uniform was always baggy (hand-me-downs) and I always wore a jumper no matter what. Prep for formal was pretty standard - managed to get a nice dress and someone to do my make-up and hair - but my (Greek) hairdresser wasn't available on the day and got her friend to fill in and he was very excited about making me into a 'Greek BRIDE' so my hair was... more flamboyant than we'd originally planned. But hey, I got a sequined nail file out of it! Because I won the 'wowed everyone' prize.
i need to express my huge thanks for speaking up about this! this particular topic plays a huge part in my life. i always felt like i don't match the "standard womanhood" - from a very young age, i never liked dresses and skirts, i played with trucks and not Barbies, i hated my long hair (and the fact that my mother always forced me to have long hair and she practically yelled and me and heavily despised me after i cutted my hair in secret). i was always annoyed by everything typically associated with "femininity" and thanks to that, i was being treated as ugly and "not girly enough" and being raised the way that i started to believe that if i will not be "woman" enough i will never get the man and nobody will ever want me. even my own family treated me this way, with my grandma repeatedly telling me that i should start taking care of myself (because jeans and short hair are viewed as "not taking care enough" i guess...?) and buying me skirts and clothes that i did not wanted to wear and then left me feeling guilty that i did not wear her gifts because i simply didn't felt comfortable in skirts. i was also bullied because of the fact that i didn't dressed particulary "feminine" and in the elementary school i actually thought i am a lesbian because of my tomboy gender expression (despise the fact that i was never attracted to a single girl at that time). our society is so toxic, misogynistic and hateful towards gender-noncomforming individuals that it makes me sick to my stomach. this really needs to change. thanks again for the video!
Yes I loved Britney’s character as a nerdy tomboy. It’s like after Cher gave her a make-over she turned her into this monster who became super male identified.
Yes! That part of the binary gender expression being limiting to two alternating poles. I have noticed some on TikTok doing the whole " Are you a girly girl or a tomboy?" All I feel when I see these on there is "Neither!" and annoyance that I will have to pick. I would say I am quite feminine in my expression but I have always identified more with tomboy characters than feminine characters in media because I can relate to feeling 'different'. I think I have identified my own version "princess ready for a sword fight" 😅
(fat paragraph, just needed to vent) i was having a discussion with my mom about how i would want my wardrobe to be like and i was really excited about it, but all she said was it's "too boyish" and "i don't think it suits you" and proceeded to tell me how she pictures me wearing skirts and bright colors and turtlenecks 24/7 (i don't mind those items in general, but give me a break) and it's really discouraging. i've ALWAYS struggled with my femininity, feeling like i'm not "girly" enough; it's even interfered with my romantic life. i feel like "i'm not feminine enough to be with a good guy" and in result i always sell myself short without even realizing it until after it happened. it also doesn't help that i'm a black girl, who's on the taller side, with a voice that's always getting mistaken as a dudes, i enjoy dressing modest, and with my actual personality not being as "girly" ("you're not like other girls" is a very common thing) it's like i'm always trying ways to expand my femininity so i can be seen as worthy. i wish i could be as carefree as some women are. it's a journey...
i dont think people realize just how much tomboy women are praised for their "not like other girls" personality and attitude. its another thing i really hate abt tthe pick me topic, alot of those girls arent the only ones saying theyre different. my personality is more masculine and i get it ALL THE TIME by men especially.
Really nice to see somebody talk about this. As somebody labelled a "tomboy" in my youth, seeing those "the tomboyish girl gets a makeover to make her more desirable" scenes in movies always felt so directed towards myself. It really sent a message of "You're not good enough/attractive enough for society as you are"
i really hate how tomboys are often automatically put in the categories of "pick me", "cool girl" or "not like other girls." like just let us women be.
Ughh right, I was just watching The Take's video on the tomboy trope, and all the comments are just about "pick me" girls, or how they don't like when the trope makes the tomboy seem better than feminine girls. Like can anyone just acknowledge that in these movies and irl it's the masculine women that get flack not the other way around
This. While there are issues being a “pick me” (or if there’s a lack of variety in writing characters), the main issue is putting down others, especially for approval by someone else. Often times, there are differences in NLOG posts and where they stem from (some really do just feel insecure/not-belonging because they’re different than social norms or how they’re treated, some question gender identity, etc- not all, I would even argue _most_ NLOG posts do not actually put down women for their femininity or for being “”normal””).
While there are complexities in social issues and I agree there is a raised mentality against femininity, people who are comfortable with themselves may just be who they are- “basic”, “different”, or whatever.
I was real concerned people would start calling anyone just being themselves a NLOG/pick-me and look where we are now. Some of us really are just masc, gender-nonconforming, trans, etc; Just leave people be if they’re not shitting on other people 😤 ffs. Why do people gotta act like every form of identity and expression is some excuse or performance, like-?? There’s no winning, huh
'Pick me' girls are the ones who put women and themselves down for male validation. Ultra feminine women as well as tomboys can be 'pick me'. Actions and words speak louder than hobbies and fashion
@@icebear7555 I also notice some people who invalidates tomboy girls and call them pick me or NLOG. Don't invalidate women' style because you don't like it.
i think they never put a femenine character or a tomboy character just to exist as women, they usually fight for who pleasures men the most and tomboy girls are tomboys in a way men are still comfortable with and can find attractive or change completely to fit beauty standards. they're not tomboys for themselves, because they just express like that, there's a man who finds them "cool", "different from other girls", "funny", "interesting", and they CARE about this male validation.
I really hate how tomboy characters are always given a "girly girl" makeover and suddenly, the guy they like (or just guys in general) realizes they exist and bend over backwards for them. Then the newly formed "girly girl" stays a "girly girl" for the rest of the movie. All because the guy she likes finally likes her back.
Edit: And half the time the guy isn't worth shit, let's be honest here.
Yea like in the breakfast club its a great movie but the weird girl was so cute but weird but still cute. It sucked when she had a makeover TwT
That makeover was a bad idea. I know that the intention was to make the only female characters get along, but geez.. she was way prettier before the 🌠 glow up 🌠
Being honest, if a guy only starts to like you after you completely changed the way you present yourself to something he likes, he isn't worth shit on principle.
"half the time" is a bit charitable
@@chondrya942 Go to FDS
An episode of Hannah Montana always stuck out to me as a pre-teen; the one where Lilly likes a guy, so Miley tries to get Lilly to change into more girly, but by the end of it it doesn't work out because Lilly's crush liked her for who she was, and didn't want her to change.
As a tomboy who always found myself around people desperate to give me a makeover, it meant a lot to me that my favourite character wasn't "changed for the better" and was appreciated for herself. Whilst as an adult, I like to embrace my "feminine" and "masculine" side, I feel like that expectation that I needed to change as a teen always deeply hurt, and it would've been nice to see more tomboy characters just allowed to exist
That's an episode on Icarly that's just like this
i still really struggle with this :(
Until the Trans nation attack...
Weird because I never thought lily was that masculine
Just started but yes! Makeover scenes can be really fun but also quite harmful to the young, impressionable viewers consuming them.
I lived for those montages when I was younger but now it's becoming more and more apparent that it's so much mysogny.
I agree with those sentiments as well . I also hate that they deem having curly hair and glasses as “ugly” or “unattractive”,,, like wtf thanks for ruining my self esteem and other young girls out there with that.
@@sapphicvampire8504 I didn’t really focus on makeover scenes that much as a small kid and I think curly hair and glasses look pretty, but that may just be my preference (I’d need to talk to other people who haven’t seen makeover scenes to see if they have different views)
Also, I hate makeover games where in "before" the characters have some sort of unique style and after it's just modern bullshit. I played a game where a girl lived in a deadass victorian styled house, and dressed herself as a vampire and the "after" was just a modern simplistic style house, and dressed the girl in some ',professional' styled clothes. I almost had a stroke.
I wish the 'makeovers' were for showing the characters how to chose clothes/accessories in their own style, not just the be one big "conform to the current fashion and beauty standard" bullshit.
Just hit section two and yes! Makeover movies always made me extremely uncomfortable as a kid, and I’m an amab enby who stereotypically should be infatuated with the concept.
I dunno, maybe I was upset that someone has to pave over their natural identity to fit someone else’s standard. Maybe I was mourning a loss of tomboyishness I personally identified with. Maybe I was just a little boy scared of femininity that I’d been conditioned to think of as alien and I was just lamenting the loss of an nlog girl in a typical male-gazey sort of way.
Whether or not my feelings are scummy or pure, I’m glad that tomboys, gnc, and transmasc people are not getting lost in our re-embracing high-fem culture in modern feminism and the gender revolution.
the "transforming from ugly to beautiful and then getting the guy" trope, really exposes how many men (also other people but significantly men) do not respect or even give women who they are not attracted to the time of day. i know for a fact that 95% of my guy friends throughout my life would not be my friend if they were not somewhat attracted to me.
I have noticed women do this as well. Not to the same extent but many women are considerably nicer and acknowledge girls they believe are “pretty” more.
ESTHER AWE yep because when i was not the best looking in middle school people disregarded my existence
a lot of men don't want to be friends with women and only want to talk to women if they want to pursue a relationship and I don't understand why :/
Or how, when the gnc woman is seen as attractive, movies present her as a "challange" and with an attitude for the smooth-talking guy to break-in and wear down, then she becomes somehow completely different and girly when he wins and they get together
@@allurajane4979 Well, It's a good thing that I'm asexual and value friendships with everyone. Besides, societal and cultural factors encourage toxic masculinity onto men, which lead to harmful behaviors. I really want to change society.
a girl once said to me I was a “not like other girls” girl because i’ve taken up skateboarding and im really into it so I was like ouch shawty. you said it perfectly, having a non feminine interest is just seen as trying to please the male gaze. in reality it’s a sport and a hobby and not something I feel safe or comfortable doing all the time, especially alone
I relate to this a lot. I liked “boy things” growing up and it lead me down a road of becoming a not like other girls bc i got upset that i couldnt just do these things and just BE a girl. I wanted male acceptance in these hobbies bc they dominate them and i wanted friends with similar hobbies. Better to be alone than with ppl who hate other women imo.
And as a cis het woman, an ex friend would say i looked like a lesbian bc i used to wear wear, get this… a fucking beanie and a flannel. Bro what? I think we gotta throw out the idea that certain fashion makes your sexuality suddenly non hetero… ffs.
@@karabii NOOOO. 😂. The world's perception of lesbianism is so ridiculously flawed. I dont understand why we can't just dress in a way that makes us feel comfortable.
i think a lot of people believe women only think about men and everything they do is about men
therefore women can't have interests, because women exist for men and are just trying to impress men
That reminds me. I remember seeing this one comment on a Gator the skater video, and it was about this girl talking about how she loved skateboarding. And one of the the replies went like "I bet you think that you are so not like those other girls" and it was so annoying.
@@kittykittybangbang9367 frr like girls can't like shit without being stereotyped. I hate it so much
this video was very much needed. it's so annoying how people have turned the "not like other girls" meme into shitting on any girl/femme person who isn't traditionally feminine and pushing this idea that all girls should be feminine in some way.
Exactly. A “not like other girls” is a girl/woman who has a superiority complex over being “quirky”, and puts down other girls/women who are more “basic”. It is NOT any girl/woman who is GNC
Thank you ! People are so quick to invalidate a girl' style just because they don't like them
Please tell this to the girls who are convinced Sharpay is the 'true victim' of HSM
@@gleewhoseline198 💀
As a hyper feminine woman myself I’m also pissed off that people are using not like other girls to shit on tomboys. Like this is exactly how the not like other girls trend started in the first place! Just let women and femmes be!
What annoys me is how people are put into narrow boxes.
“Girly girl” who likes clothes and makeup and dislikes sports
Non-girly girl - who wears jeans and no makeup , likes sports etc
There are plenty of of women who wear dresses one day and jeans and a T-shirt the next. Or who like sports and shopping. I know a cheerleader who is also a member of the chess club
A cheerleader in the chess club? That reminded me of Beth Harmon. I know she’s not a cheerleader but she is very feminine
Also shoutout to the girls who are neither/nor. I don't really care for makeup, shopping or other feminine things, and I have no interest in traditionally "masculine" hobbies (chess, sports, video games, comics, etc.) either. We exist too! lol
I know a girl who'd dress all pretty with makeup and a fancy dress, and then go climb a tree or wrestle.
There's also much more than just those two sides. I'm disabled and thus not as into sports, but I'm super into technology, I'm into more androgynous clothes, and I like to be creative with it. It's so odd how much people's expectations change based on what someone looks like,
I totally agree with you! Why should tomboys be forced to be more feminine? Usually their love interest likes them exactly the way they are anyway!
Omg exactly!
Just like that episode of Hannah Montana where Miley forced Lily to be more girly, when the guy she liked already had a crush on her.
oh please, you're the biggest supporter of the take. you're often on their own vids claiming how tomboys "demonize" girly girls or something. you're probably salty with all your pink dresses you don't get the attention you want.
It's honestly sick it's like girls you can be whatever you want as long as heterosexual men find you sexually desirable 😌
Only reason they’re ok with gay women and not gay man
@@pixieinx men are not 'okay' with gay women. theyre fetishizing lesbian porn but i can be the first to tell you as a lesbian. men are not treating me any better. probably worse. sorry but I get really fucking annoyed when non-lesbians or non-bi women try to tell us that we are somehow privileged because men love the fantasy of having sex with us
@@everaster9383 I completely agree, as someone whose pan-sexual, every time I tell a cis-het man their first thought is threesome, when I get uncomfortable they decide to berate me or get mad 😐
lol i think you commented on another video i was watching earlier today
Fr tho. It's so disgusting
adding on to the idea of tomboys "maturing into feminity", i think that homophobia (specifically lesbophobia) plays a huge part. more masculine styles / gender nonconformity are heavily associated with lesbianism, and as young girls (and nonbinary ppl) grow older they are expected to distance themselves from that and conform to heteronormative ideals of beauty
Yep. I got made fun of sooo much for looking like a lesbian as a kid and ppl assumed I was one just because I had short hair, didn’t wear makeup, and didn’t like “girly” clothes. While being gay is completely normal and shouldn’t be an insult or tied to a particular look
and it all comes from the idea of it being "a phase" too or we don't knowing ourselves enough and when we grow up we know ourselves better and "mature" and become "normal" again
It's kinda funny, because me being a nonbinary transmasc, most of my childhood was me expressing myself within hyperfeminity, and as I'm growing up and maturing I've been becoming more masculine in my expression and comfortable with myself. There were so many parts of myself that I buried because I wanted to seem normal and like a girl. and only now that I know who I am, I've been digging those thing back up and taking them back.
@Maddie Atkinson Yep this. I was definitely considered a tomboy by everyone in my life growing up and fully embraced that identity and I wanted short hair to look more boyish but my mom wouldn’t cut my hair shorter than the bottom of my ears because of what I can only presume lesbophobia and/or transphobia. As an adult I would say my personality and interest are more fluid. I have a tomboy personality but an interest in historical fashion. I avoid makeup like the plague but I’m a heterosexual cis woman. Honestly I fit more in in nerd culture than anywhere else in the world. It’s a safe space for me to love anime, fantasy, history, folklore, costumes etc. because no cares if I present myself as traditionally feminine. They just care that I can gush about how much I loved a show or hold an intelligent conversation about the minute details about a particular period of history. I love not fitting in with main stream culture because I’ve never cared about it. I just love being myself 🤓🥰
@@222fairydust Holy crap that's exactly what I'm going through atm. I've figured out that I'm non-binary, but I'm scared of coming out to anyone cause anytime I would express feelings of gender dysphoria, I'd be told "you're still young--you'll be comfortable with your body when you're older"
As a Navajo women who express herself with “tomboy” to “rough soft fashion” it’s mind numbing when my gender expression leads to people questioning my sexual or gender. My own parents (who are western leaning) telling me to dress more “sweet” or “girl doll like” rather then a plaid lesbian, but I’m ASEXUAL. And my own culture believes in comfort over details for daily clothing, we dress up with lace or our traditional beautiful dress during important events out of practically and reason. I can go from wearing my brother hoodie and plaid to a flower dress with cowboy boots.
To be frank “America” has not bother to fully understand or even learn the beautiful relationship between of Native American gender expression, fashion and practicality.
Ayyyy what up. Lets not mention the 4-5 genders in our OWN culture + the pan-indian 2 spirited ppl. My parents are extremely western leaning as well and somehow proud of our culture without being aware that Navajo culture encapsulates everything that they stand against lol I want to rip my hair out
Also I’m ace too 🤩
just dropping in here to say hey there fellow aces
Ace who people always mistake for lesbian gang
I know!!!! While I am white, I get sort of... nervous(?) when I dress less femininely than my peers. I’m Aro-Ace but I think I still have a strong desire to be straight-passing, and feel uncomfortable wearing “atypical” clothing around other people.
you deserve way more than 80k subscribers. why do 12-year-old boys have to come upon "feminist destroyed" videos instead of videos like this??
might be intentional marketing based on your gender
@@alexrose20 yes - after selecting male as a gender on my google and youtube I've seen so many of those videos pop up and I have to say not interested every time. I'm glad I've found these videos though :)
@@hughgleave I switched my gender to male today so I can stop getting those relentless period product and bra ads. I wonder if I'll start being recommended alt right shit now lol
@@alexrose20 mine is female and it took years of just searching what i want instead until the algorithm built itself around my searches
edit: i should add that ive had a yt account for maybe 8 years and my gender identity is much more different/complicated now from then lol.
@@alexrose20 oh shit I wonder if TH-cam still thinks I’m a woman 💀
This info is good to know
*as a poc nonbinary person, it’s sad that the only androgynous look I’ve seen in the media growing up were girls who look like Ellen Degeneres. while it’s slightly better now, we need more representation!!! I appreciate your take on this.*
Representation is so important. I’m white but I don’t relate to most androgynous models because they’re super thin with no curves. As a size 8/10 with a very curvy body I feel excluded.
exactly! i also find it very telling of white supremacy, fatphobia, and femmephobia that androgyny - something that is understood by many to be ""neutral"" and default - is white, bone thin, and incrediblyyy masculine and andro-centric. Additionally, why is it that most of androgynous models seem to be masculine cis white women, yet if a male-passing individual were to be just a _tad_ feminine and were to deviate from only the most rigid of masculinity - they would just straight up be read as feminine: never even having the access to androgyny as a whole? i feel like this also plays into people seeing being non-binary as a thing for _,,women (lite)""_ and have a hard time grasping that amab ppl can be nonbinary too but thats a whole other can of worms....
@@madelinevlogs5898 honestly. You get androgynous model rep in high fashion (ie a vogue mag will deffo have them) , androgynous models in high Street fashion campaigns are in the minority. If you look at online fashion giants such as Boho or sheIn, the models tend to be 'curvy'(with a small waist) , tan, and blonde, feminine with that Instagram look.
You might like the brand 'Lucy and Yak'.
@@Mariathinking just looked them up and they have some really nice clothes and sustainable too. Idk if they ship to the US
@@kitty4107 'seem to be masculine cis white women'
I have seen a few cases where these models have been outed or came out as trans or intersex and its ruined their careers.
THANK YOU for mentioning Ally from The Breakfast Club. The pink dress moment was *criminal*
Biggest downgrade in history. She was so beautiful dressed “goth”
And that hair dress....oooh gosh.
An unpopular opinion, but I'm not totally against Allison Reynolds experimenting with femininity. It's just that the 'makeover' scene could've been better executed. Then again, the main characters of "Breakfast Club" ARE awkward teens and that Claire Standish only knew 1 version of femininity. If anything, 'dark/gothic feminine' would've been a better makeover style for Ally.
As a straight, cis man, I've always seen the problem with how tomboys are portrayed, but always had a hard time putting it into words. You do an amazing job putting it into context and explaining the problem clearly.
Seeing female heroes/protagonists that are supposed to be independent and strong still being portrayed as if they're trying to appeal to my sexuality, rather than my sense of adventure, justice, or compassion always made me uncomfortable. I can remember feeling like this even back as a kid, though not understanding why it made me unhappy at the time.
I’ve noticed how we did a 180 with this. People on the internet talk as if tomboys were the norms and being feminine the minority and so feel comfortable to mock women who are more masculine, as if it was revolutionary . But the reality is that feminity is sill highly rewarded. When I dress feminine I can notice how different I am being treated. So let’s not pretend that there being masculine as a woman gives you any type of clout in real life, it doesn’t. Women should dress the way they want regardless. I just wished the new anti pick me mentality didn’t put down masculine women as much. No body is dressing for men, but when you associate being a pick me with attributes of women who dress unconventionally, you make it hard for the women who dress and act this way to like themselves.
Thank you so much. I'm honestly baffled by this idea as well. When was it okay, throughout history for women to be anything but feminine.
Thank you! Yeah, it's the same thing upside down, women against women as always 🙄
it's like we literally played ourselves lmao, we just returned to the status quo, awesome.
ppl who put them down are the real pick mes
While there ARE pick-me women who happen to present themselves as "non-femme", being a pick-me is really more about attitude/mentality.
i always hated the “growing out of it” thing because i know so many butch women and masc women irl, but there’s no visibility for them in media. (unless it’s about demonizing gnc adult women 😑🚬)
Like your profile pic 👀
@@aclouda25 thank u omg! i like yours too
Ive been TOLD ill grow out of it.. haha, no..
Really? What about the "cool lesbian aunt" stereotype?
@@cockycookie1 i have a "cool aunt" but shes straight lol
Old masc women deserve the entire world and I love them so much
Yes
100%
Truth
When you said tomboys are always portrayed as children and adolescents I felt such a sense of validation and realization. I’ve been infantalized and desexualized for my GNC traits my whole life. Seeing the tomboy “grow up” to be feminine or have a makeover and come out “beautiful” honestly broke my heart each time I saw it, they always looked wrong to me and I think some part of me recognized myself in that.
i was literally thinking about miss congeniality for this whole video then you mentioned it.. like i'm so tired of tomboys being "undesirable" until they present as more feminine. also bts reference! my queen
I had such a weird experience as a child, I was quiet, liked dresses and pink and only really had female friends, but I've always played sports and didn't wear makeup or want to kiss boys. I felt like I was feminine in all the 'wrong' ways. I think the cool girls always performed feminity in a more grown up way. The term tomboy was like, immediate coolness.
I had a weird experience with femininity too. I’ve always been nurturing, good with kids, and soft spoken but I’m masculine in terms of appearance.
@@fatimazafar4200 haha that’s great.
Also, I feel like tomboys are way too often associated with homosexuality. Like you say in the video, tomboys are seen through a heteronormative lens, and since they don't fit this typical binary, then they must be gay. Gender expression can overlap with sexuality, but they're not tied to each other. But since this whole narrative says that a woman should present in a feminine way to attract male attention, then they must not want their attention, and therefore have to be gay. Gender expression and personnal expression are a way of showing on the outside who you are on the inside, it's not a way of attracting potential mates. We should be allowed to dress the way we want to, without having any ties to external validation and approval.
So true. My boyfriend and I both have some gender non conforming interests, and I know people have asked him if he's gay when we were younger. We're actually both on the asexual spectrum, so people often will end up asking us weird stuff, or we have to explain our attraction in different ways. Just let us be us?
I think an important thing to explicitly acknowledge is that this association is killing two birds with its line of reasoning. Woman not feminine enough = not good enough for men/not available to men = she's gay = gay=bad. A tomboy who is or is assumed to be a lesbian is not more accepted, just judged through both the lenses of misogyny and homophobia (which is itself rooted in misogyny!) which punishes personal expression whether it's tied to sexuality or not.
@@profileuser5845 couldn't have said it any better 👏
I honestly hate his so much like every girl in the media that has a boyish style is termed "tHe lEsBiAn iCoN" amd I’ve been called lesbian multiple times for being a single tomboy
as a cis woman who bounces around masculine and feminine styles I can notice how people treat me differently depending on how I look. I go to the mall with baggy pants and shirt, I get treated relatively normally. I wear a skirt, I get asked if I need help more often, cashiers talk to me more. Its very subtle and maybe I'm just thinking too hard about it, but it really seems this way
That’s such a cool observation. I hope one day people will just get treated equally though.
I was that little girl growing up that would be climbing trees and making mud pies in sparkly fairy wings and glitter 😂I feel like being a tomboy is more of an attitude than a stylistic choice
@the cutest snail same omg I like cute flair dresses and outfits of varying levels of femininity but at home I like dungeons and dragons and playing video games of stuff like Star Wars and other more guy-oriented content.
SAME OH MY FRIGGIN GODDD
I’m very feminine and love guy-oriented things, and yet my mother tried to say how me being feminine is a reason she’s not so close with us (Daughters) and why she likes her son more. And I like so many things she likes too, she’s such a fucking pick me.
@@41052 well that's not right :(
@@41052 that’s real shitty, especially for her to have an open bias on her own children and not even see the double-standards/hypocrisy 😤 sorry you have to deal with a childish parent like that
“When are you going to wear make-up”
“Why don’t you wear more dresses?”
Sounds a lot like “How you are isn’t ok.”
Don’t do that to someone.
Glad to see there is one comment here that can say something important without saying “like”
@@AmazingRebel23 ?
@@AmazingRebel23 like?
@@AmazingRebel23 are you some sexist man who hates on teen girls?
@@MEOWMIX3DS i think he means that when someone realises how much likes they got on a comment and says
"Edit: omg this is the most likes i ever gotten"
I really wish they had let Tai stay a tomboy in the movie clueless. It would have really tied all the loose ends in her and Cher's fight. They would just agree to disagree and respect boundaries. Tai's style could be refined and cleaned up, but stay sporty or boyish 💅🏿💗
i kinda agree but i think in the end tai instead incorporated her own sense of fashion from how she was "transformed" from cher's little makeover. i think they did indeed respected each others' ways in the end. it's quite subtle, and maybe it's just the way i interpreted it, but i think in the "you're a virgin who can't drive" scene that's where cher realizes the mess she made by making tai turn into someone she's not. in that scene, and a few before that, like when tai snubbed travis at lunch and she started to dress very much like cher. you know, preppy, skirts, and plaids. then in the near ending at travis' skate board event, where cher and tai reconciled, tai opted for a cute, plain and simple style- nothing how then-meddling cher would've dressed her like - preppy and everything. she started dressing for herself
(sorry this is long lmao)
it would have "tai"-d all the loose ends.
I feel guilty for liking that Tai didn't stay a tomboy
@@flowersinantarctica8 Ayyeee! 💀
@@fairsuns I agree, I think if she went full athleisure for the '90s that would've been fashionable and tomboyish at the same time. But I do understand how you saw a compromise in her style at the end 💅🏿
As a GNC lesbian going on 28 years of being a “tomboy” - this was really well said and super appreciated! No one I’ve seen on TH-cam has been able to discuss this topic well. There seems to be a weird idea that GNC women are adored and praised by society like you said - and when asked for examples in media they’ll name someone like Megan Fox in Transformers. She is fantastic, but not GNC in the least in that movie. She just likes cars! I feel like people think “Woman with traditionally masculine hobbies = GNC”, but that’s just not the case. The reason Megan Fox’s character is liked in that movie (and other characters in that “guy’s girl” archetype) is explicitly because they have a masculine hobby but perform femininity enough to still be desirable to men. GNC and butch women do have a general “look” (granted it’s a wide umbrella) and should be presented that way in media - and that’s ok to say and to want! It’s annoying that it’s danced around so much. We GNC women have actually spent a lot of effort to look the way we do contrary to popular belief - we are not “unfashionable” or “uncaring” about how we look! It is a style and demeanor that is desirable to many WLW (and def some other people of all genders!) and carefully curated by the women who choose to present that way. The butch identity in particular has a long and super interesting history. It’s really hard to find examples of truly GNC women in media, and even harder to find examples that treat them as desirable, fully realized characters that actively CHOOSE and enjoy being GNC! Great video once again!
Exactly! Your comment really resonates with me because I'm butch (24 years old) and I hate the assumption that I just "Don't care" about my appearance or about clothes in general because I'm actually really proud of my wardrobe & I feel like I worked hard on it. Like to me personally being masc isn't about neutrality, it's part of who I am and I love it and I want to express it to share the joy I take in it!
I really liked your points of how the media always makes being a tomboy something you're supposed to grow out of. I remember very clearly still being a high chair age, throwing a fit because my mother was telling me that I needed to "behave like a lady" and I was in full meltdown screaming that I was not a lady because by then I already knew that I didn't fit in with the expressions of femininity. Years later I swore off dresses and skirts, around end of 3rd, start of 4th grade, and had made my tomboyishness so clear that at an xmas event with my sunday school class where we were supposed to make cookies for the whole church, the like self selected girls in charge decreed that there were too many people in the kitchen and they kicked all the boys _and me_ upstairs where we played pool and watched wild wild west. My lack of femininity was obvious and they wanted me where I 'belonged.' But by middle school those same kinds of femme girls were split between trying to give me make overs constantly or having decided I was a threat because me and the boys could joke around and have easy conversations. It's beyond frustrating that this behavior effectively lasts into adulthood, as more femme women disregard my lack of femininity but are threatened because I'm straight. Society is more willing to accept lesbian tomboys, because then they don't threaten the social order as much.
Making it more complicated is knowing that I have pretty privilege, and how people get genuinely mad at me for my gender expression. I've literally been told "but you're too pretty to be a scientist" as if bone structure dictates gender expression (or that femme people can't be smart and capable scientists?!?). It's this dumb catch 22 where as a (straight) tomboy you're demanded to at least be pretty, but if you are you're a threat. Every one of my long term relationships has ended because the dude realized he doesn't actually like women without femininity.
I think it's important to have discussions about how femininity can interact with pretty privilege. Sure there is a lot of demonization of feminine women in media and portray them as the ''mean girl'' in contrast to the more tomboyish main character. however, both are played by very much conventionally attractive women, the only reason the quote unquote nlog girl's behavior is socially accepted is because she still looks feminine (ie: conforms to mainstream beauty standards). In real life, tomboys who aren't ''beautiful'' are not accepted at all, and the same goes for non conventionally attractive women who have very feminine presenting (as for hair, clothing, etc). I have come across women who said people who reacted negatively to them when they dressed up not because of being overly feminine itself but because they were not ''beautiful'' and by dressing up they stood out and thus ''stepped out of line''.
Oh this comment hit, I know exactly what you mean!
I’ve heard of girls feel like they aren’t pretty enough for dresses or makeup
@@madelinevlogs5898 tbh I think I just realized why I hate wearing dresses/ make up is because I feel like I'm asking for attention for being pretty/ultra fem, when that's not me. I know I'm not conventionally pretty or ultra fem- I feel like a fraud.
Yes it’s another huge factor that plays into it. I feel like it should be talked about more because it harms people just as much
Something interesting (read: depressing) that I notice in how people interact with me: I'm not interested in traditionally feminine or conventional interests or style, and don't pay much attention to the gender presentation of my wardrobe as long as I like how things look and feel on me. But I have a naturally very "feminine" appearance (thin with a young-looking face and big eyes) so when I grow my hair out people who don't know me assume I'm much more conventionally girly and fashion-forward than I am. I find that whether I'm meeting people for dates or friendship or even new work colleagues, women I haven't spoken to before will often start off being really nice, complimenting me, all smiles, but if a traditionally feminine topic comes up and I give an honest answer that doesn't fit social norms, or if I'm asked about my looks and make it clear that I don't follow trends or wear makeup, a lot of women tend to cool toward me and start side-eyeing and avoiding me. I've been told I'm "rude" "cold" "weird" or "intimidating" when I know for a fact that I wasn't being anything of the sort. I'm a people-pleaser, and I always aim to speak to everyone around me from a place of empathy and good humour. I have no beef with the femmes, I think they're fun and cool and look great. But there is an element of gender conformity that sees non-conforming individuals as threatening, and this belies that a lot of expressions of traditional femininity aren't coming from a place of progress and empowerment and self-expression, but are really just revamped elements of conservative womanhood. It's interesting to watch the switch in attitude from viewing me as a feminine woman to viewing me as a non-traditionally-feminine person, sometimes in real time I can literally see another woman's eyes glaze over as she realises I'm not *actually* girly, I'm just a twig-shape d*ke with a baby face.
It's so incredibly depressing how I've literally been screamed at for wanting to be masc-presenting(on two different occasions), been called frumpy, and been called a lesbian by guy friends who erased my bisexuality (or maybe they were negging 🙄). IMHO "Not like most girls" trope is 100%*projecting*, because of people just hating teenage girls for acting like teenage girls (I'm 33 FYI, and I STILL wince at the very thought of maybe I'm just faking who I am for attention, when I've literally experienced all of these things that make who I am)
This is very true.
Thanks for this! Almost nobody talks about the struggles tomboy women face. Pretty much every video that talks about the struggles of feminine women typecast more masculine presenting girls as nlogs or frame their masculinity as immature or they assume masculine women are privileged over feminine women
I really wish people would just let us be. I have always been tomboy-ish (almost 25 years old, def didn't grow out of it). I do feel and identify 100% as a woman, I'm just not interested in most things that are considered traditionally feminine, incuding the way I chose to clothe myself. The most hurtful thing for me is when it's not just strangers looking down on me, but my own family, like my parents constantly nagging me: "if only you'd wear some makeup", "if you wore different clothes" etc., which often end with "then guys might even like you!" ... as if I just exist to look pretty to guys, ugh. Or my grandmother constantly asking when I'll grow my hair out again (I've had it short since I was 14 years old). I remember maybe two or three years ago in summer, I decided to wear a dress because it was super hot, and that summer dress was super light and comfortable. I didn't wear it for looks, just for comfort, so I wouldn't be too hot in the sun ... And someone commented that I finally looked like a woman ... like that shit HURT. I AM a woman, why do I have to look a certain way to be considered one?
Tomboy: *breathes*
Everyone: Ok pick me girl 😒
Well that's what toxic females tend to do.
It’s interesting and fun reading comments about how people grew and often appeared more tomboy-ish at a younger age and slowly grew to appreciate/embrace more femininity!
It was kind of a reverse in my case where I started out openly dressing and showing interest in ‘girly’ stuff but grew to be more masc (overall ambiguous/mixed), perhaps I was just wearing whatever I liked back then (I still like sparkly/colorful/pretty things) but now am more conscious of my identity and presentation (confidence in my style is found in other stuff). Wouldn’t say I’m pretending or forcing myself to like other stuff, but some things are separate in what just appeals to me vs what I would actually want to have/wear.
Same. I used to force myself to dress more girly because only being around feminine straight girls in my conservative small town made me think that’s what you had to do to be pretty. As soon as I got out of there I realize I actually want to look nothing like that
Me tooooo
For a slightly different version, I wore almost only skirts/dresses as a kid (part by choice, part due to my mother), but I was climbing trees in my granny boots and shredding stockings frequently because I mostly played pretty roughly. Fast forward to age 9/10, it was nigh impossible to get me into a skirt or dress, and with very rare exception, has been that way over 20yrs (the mood strikes me occasionally, or work requires it). I have a traditionally masculine job, kind of always been 'one of the guys', have the dry wit and dominant personality usually expected of men, have very few 'traditionally feminine' interests, and really only dress in women's clothing for work since I'm both big and tall, and work appropriate options that fit are limited unless I spend a mint.
Tldr: wore skirts and dresses but still climbed trees (was a tomboy), until I stopped wearing dresses ~25yrs ago (but still climb trees)
I feel like I can say this as a traditionally feminine presenting woman. It’s honestly really frustrating how feminism, a movement characterized by its intention to eradicate gender roles has kind of been co opted by conventionally feminine women who feel targeted by women aren’t as conventionally feminine. I’m not saying “femininity bashing” doesn’t exist or that I’ve never felt it, but you can’t pretend that gender non conforming women don’t face discrimination all the time. There was a girl in my school who joined the men’s football team because there wasn’t a woman’s team and was ridiculed for it. I’ve had a few more gender non-conforming friends who’ve been told multiple times that they’ll “never find a man” because of how they dress and behave. The stigma is real.
On a smaller sense, in all those makeovers people with glasses were seen as ugly and dorky I still have trouble seeing myself as pretty because I have to wear glasses. It's such a stupid thing but this thing is like... Engraved in my brain somehow.
Me too! As a kid with big curly hair and glasses it hurt my confidence to see every girl remove her glasses and straighten her hair to become pretty.
@@madelinevlogs5898 I could cry for the little me now
@spine time That's even more sad. :(
There's a rhyme my dad told me when I was a kid that they apparently used to say a lot when he was an undergrad -- "girls who wear glasses don't get many passes." I think he thought I'd find it funny, but... 😕
for what its worth glasses are adorable(live those cute round thin ones)
Short haired, tomboy-ish adult here. I've increasingly been assumed to be either trans or masc lesbian. I'm neither. Just an ordinary gnc woman and the comments and questions made to me are getting exhausting.
As a person who identifies as gender fluid I can assure you that from my little experience in live I always found difficult to explain to other people my gender. And I always ask myself why someone cisgender can be comfortable in society with their gender without confronting shame or judgment but people outside the binary can’t? Like, live and let live. Hakuna matata or something
Hakuna Matata
@@fleur5782 ups
@@hotwater2150 downs
Genderfluid here too and totally agree. I had so many dumb battles as a kid and I felt so let down. Why do I get this and not you? I’m ten. You’re an adult. Do you really want me to perform when I could just be?
I love that Lion King refrence
as a former tomboy “pick me” girl (who turned out to be trans anyways), i can tell this video is gonna be great
Lol same. Was a super cringy “not like other girls” kid, turned out to be trans
This
Cuz like me too
oh god that’s exactly what happened to me jdhgkjg
Turning into an adult made me question whether or not I was still a tomboy. Took me a few years to figure out that I was indeed trans.
As a gnc individual, I have experienced so much criticism from my family and peers. This video perfectly describes my feelings. Luckily times are changing, and maybe within 50 years or so, the masculine and Feminine gaze won’t be as powerful. Thanks for the video! Love you!!
The fact that I was a "tomboy" as a child and a "not like other girls" tween makes a lot more sense since I realized I was a lesbian at 18 lol
same, but when I realized I was a trans guy
@@bluesweatshirts7113 valid as hell
I've always been a tomboy but I'm asexual not lesbian.
@@remington8617 Also valid!
Sameeee but I’m bi with a preference for girls UuU
I remember there's a certain Hannah Montana episode in which Lilly gets asked out by her crush and she gets a make over to look more feminine and "likable", but when she shows up at the date he tells her that he liked her for who she actually is. Lilly being a tomboy and that episode's plot didn't mean much back when i was a kid but it certainly does now, when i think about it. Thank you so much for the video~
I can say I've had several fantasies of makeovers as a child so I could be "fixed" and finally have "style" and have something I would have in common with other girls
I was a tomboy and still kinda am (but not really) and I've always had more masculine interests in video games and digital media and I've had fantasies of makeover as a child that I would finally become skinny and beautiful and learn about makeup and clothes and accepted by the people around me
Thank you for making this analysis because as you said, tomboy adults aren't represented in the media
Also I really like your philosophy/idea/attitude that femininity is a spectrum and I've noticed that I've adopted it subconsciously in recent times. Really helps me navigate things and let's me feel happier in life.
My mom thought I'd just magically turn into a straight, feminine girl as soon as I turn 20...
I'm currently proving her wrong, by working toward transitioning, because I'm not a tomboy, I just don't feel comfortable expressing femininity, because I'm not a girl, I'm a feminine man.
mood
I have decided that my gender is pretty boy.
@@muldersimp2052 Yes.
*greets* same gender journey
Ugh yes I find this so irritating because everyone enforcing toxic masculinity and all of these stereotypes makes it so you feel as if you can't portray your femininity without people thinking you're a girl or saying you're trying to be 'special' by saying you're a guy, when you honestly just feel comfortable presenting feminine but that does not change the fact that you are a guy and always will be. There is rage inside of me due to this and I don't know how to let it out so um sorry about the rant, heh.
I consider myself a tomboy and I've found it hard to find characters in fictional media I can relate to, it makes me feel alone even though I have other friends in the real world who are GNC. One thing that really irks me about tomboy characters is when they undergo feminization and "grow out" of gender nonconformity, implying that it's bad not to be into makeup, dresses, heels, etc as a woman. I've never liked wearing makeup or most dresses and I just like to wear comfortable, baggy clothing. I can't recall ever being treated any differently for the way I present myself because I believe there are some feminine qualities in my presentation (long hair, long eyelashes and trimmed eyebrows, feminine face, etc) that play into it.
(And sorry if my comment is sloppy, English isn't my first language :v)
yeah theres so little good representation of us :((
your english is great, and is that enkidu in your profile?
@@thequeertelope7941 Thank you. And yes, they are my favorite Fate character!
@@veronis ikr i love them
hehe fitting to ur comment bc they're pretty much canonically enby or genderless
Read tomo chan is girl manga then
a friend sent me a tiktok of a creator talking about how troy was "scared" of Sharpay because she was passionate about theater, it was a video to "empower" feminine "loud" passionate women but by putting down less feminine women, so Gabriela was called boring (by the creator) because she was passionate about math (she's not a tomboy, I know, I just find it interesting and an example of how more feminine women are praised a bit more sometimes)
and they were putting women against women FOR A MAN so...
The isolation/rejection is real. Other women tend not to want to be your friend, and are sometimes straight up passive aggressive?? And if you’re like me and are romantically interested in men, they tend to want nothing to do with you outside of being bros. It’s depressing. That “not good enough for anyone” feeling penetrates deep :/
When I was a teenager I had to call myself a tomboy because I was too fat to feel comfortable in feminine clothes or too poor to afford them. As an adult I lost weight, and I'm interested in wearing different types of clothes. Like some days I want to dress and wear makeup like I'm going to the red carpet, other days I want to dress like I'm in the 40-50s, other times I want to dress like a medieval peasant or a Viking warrior and other times I want to dress manly.
I really loved this video, and just a comment on the end (is it too much to ask for a plus sized woman to not be the butt of the joke) I think Melissa McCarthy is a great example of this. I noticed that in Gilmore girls, her character of Sookie never makes jokes about her weight, or hardly any self deprecating jokes, maybe about her clumsiness but anyway, but in more recent roles they almost always write her in as the funny fat friend. In Gilmore girls she’s seen as beautiful, smart, funny but in so many others it’s just “haha I’m fat that’s the joke” I really love how you pulled attention to this and other issues!!
i see you're a person of culture as well
I think just as how all this can't be divorced from gender things, it can't be divorced from sexuality.
Especially the prevailing idea that kids can be tomboys /until/ they grow up. As kids, it can be acceptable for them to not be for men, but by (especially older) teenagehood, they're supposed to have begun their heterosexual development.
Overall, it promotes the idea that your kid isn't gay, they're in a tomboy phase and will straighten up once they see the light of heterosexual attraction that's supposed to come with growing up.
Like the empowered woman of the past, a gay woman can be seen as sexually unavailable to men and thus not useful, which aligns with the other things in the vid.
However, in my opinion, it makes a lot more sense why there's a fear around it when you recognise the homophobia. When at best you'd consider your kid being gay as too big of a challenge to the future you wanted, and at worst as a disgusting, evil thing, it gives the person in a non-sexual relationship with the tomboy a reason to promote feminine change in that tomboy.
I think you’re on the money there. There is a lot for gay anxiety in it.
Of*
i'm a tomboy and i'm not gay...
Looking back at my hatred for pink, I cringe because I know it wasn't due to the fact I didn't like the colour but because of 🎆society🎆
same lmao now im obsessed w the color
Pink was my favorite color as a kid, then as I got older and closer to preteen and younger teen-aged I hated pink for a long time, now as an adult it's absolutely one of my favorite colors again. I definitely wanted to distance myself from traditional femininity for a long time because I saw traditionally feminine hobbies and personality traits as lesser than traditionally masculine ones.
Pink used to be for boys too…a lighter version of the active color red…so more about our culture is messed up. Colors really mean nothing overall.
'There are no adult tomboys' is the perfect explanation for why I, an agender person, never had to question my gender until people started trying to categorize me as a woman rather than a girl as I became older. Because as a kid or teen, "girl" when referring to me really meant "tomboy", which, close enough -- tomboys are the closest thing people conceptualize as gender-neutral anyway, so, you know, that was fine. And then it wasn't. And I had to figure out why. Spoiler alert: it's because gender makes no sense to me to begin with! And having people trying to gender me is uncomfortable as hell!
Anyway. Media portrayal of tomboys sucks, and media portrayal of agender people... doesn't exist. Gotta love this society! -_-
Hello fellow agender person! I also felt really left behind when all the girls in my school started becoming feminine and outgrowing the tomboy phase. I’m hoping it’ll get easier at my future school with a high lgbt population
Being a girl who's always been a tomboy, went through the phase of the "I'm not like other girls" straight to being a full-time feminist.. I can relate to this video more than I would imagine :D Trying to convince my relatives that I'm not going to straighten my curly hair just because I look more feminine that way, or that I don't want to wear make-up every day, and that wearing sneakers and ripped jeans with oversized male t-shirts isn't a crimeeeeee! And that I'm not gonna grow out of that phase (cuz I've been this way for 20 years lol) even when I'm the last girl on Earth who's single or "not enough"... and even if I decide to change, it's going to be my personal choice which depends solely on my mood, my taste and my feelings not your PRECIOUS OPINIONS.
Yes same!!!! I've had that EXACT same experience. But also what really hurts is when friends are like "Oh you're FINALLY becoming feminine!!" whenever I show even a LITTLE bit of interest in fashion. It hurts, because it implies that girls can't show a SLIGHT interest in clothes without being feminine :/ but then with guys it's just a normal thing that nobody tells them "oh you're finally becoming feminine!!" I don't have to "finally" become feminine and I hate that everyone is just waiting for that or jumps on ANY sign of that.
@@Someone-ig7we Relatableeee 😭 and when someone comments on your slight interest like that you just automatically pull back and feel like you've "betrayed" your style/taste :')
As much as I love your videos and content I hate the fact that us as black and poc constantly have to educate it’s really draining but great video
Oof. This comment kinda hit 😅😅😅 but I also enjoy the fact that more black/poc are finally getting recognized in the commentary community!
Tbh I only end to watch commentary videos by poc (especially women) because I want to hear their side since I am already VERY aware what white people think lol
(As a white person myself I am saying this)
i'm a queer nb trans AFAB person who has a lot of stereotypically "feminine" fashion interests & such but like tbh???? my interests don't invalidate my gender AND my fashion communities (the j-fashion and pastel and kawaii fashion communities) have THRIVING LGBTQIA+ representatives online who stick together & fight the BS collectively w/ our QTBIPOC fellow enthusiasts xD and uhhh.... i do very much appreciate this
@@Allison_Hart your description of your gender is so valid and makes a lot of sense to me!!! i think i relate that way similarly to my internal sense of gender, and i take the way i present as an opportunity to express creativity, in fashion and art, and not necessarily because i feel like a "girl" or feminine, but because it's something i enjoy wearing and helps me feel confident! i think also for me, i only really experience social dysphoria, when others assume my presentation is indicating something that it isn't, or if people invalidate my sense of nonbinary and trans identity in general.
I was a huge tomboy then but I got tired of being treated like one of the boys by guys so I started dressing more feminine. Also there is this stereotype that black women especially dark skin black women are masculine and I don’t want to be perceived that way. I feel my style now is a mix of tomboy and girly.
i have a huge problem with my femininity till this day, with me also being a black woman, its so hard cause i'm ALWAYS getting called a man and i hate it so much; sometimes i feel like i'm not worthy of being feminine :( but my style is also similiar to yours, mix of tomboy and girly
It also seems lately like any woman who isn't traditionally feminine and says anything about it at all just gets labeled an NLOG or a pick me. Like do people not realize how unacceptable society finds it to not be feminine as an adult? I've spent a great deal of my life feeling like I wasn't "girly" enough. I'm not trying to be cool, or different, or put down other girls, I literally just want to share my experience as someone that's been ridiculed for not fitting the standard of being feminine.
That quote about being “enough” for cishet men without being “too much” hit hard! You’ve succinctly articulated this weird, elusive feeling that many women and femmes experience but can’t exactly describe. I feel like with each new video in your femininity series you get more and more nuanced and inclusive in your discussions about the male and female gaze. Stuff that I as a feminine presenting cis woman have never even considered until now even though I’ve been trying to tackle this topic for years. ❤️
I used to love being a tomboy but then my auntie made me think being a tomboy meant I was a lesbian and that being a lesbian is bad. So I switched things up and tried to force myself into femininity and lollllll suffered for years with an eating disorder trying to be perfect. Oh childhood... what fun
thank you for taking the time to listen to gender nonconforming people for your video essay. there are so many videos out there about the topic of tomboys, “not like other girls” or “pick me’s” usually made by cisgender and gender conforming people who often place themselves on the pedestal of being the “other girl”, because growing up as a tomboy and eventually growing into my butch lesbian self i am today, i *am* and *was* not like other girls and demonized by them(and really society as a whole) for not fitting in. i’m not sure where else to lead this but thank you again! ❤️
You’ll probably be very happy to here that a kids show actually addressed this. They had the normal episode of the girl trying to make the tomboy more feminine, but instead of portraying it as a good thing, they showed how much it hurt the tomboys feelings. The episode ending with the girl apologising, and the two male characters asking if they could do the feminine stuff with her, she of course said yes! (The show’s called Amphibia btw, it’s a Disney show)
I realized that I only wore dresses and straightened my hair because because I wanted to get approval from others. I realized that I was bisexual.
I think movies really ruin us that that we have to be this attractive woman who is feminine enough to be considered beautiful and for men to not be uncomfortable about being attracted to them, but also not too girly because girly=bad. But also if women dares to not care about traditional femininity and also dosent care about still somehow being attractive to the dudes. Basicly the mythical "Cool girl" made us think that we can't express ourself for ourself unless man are happy with it. In short this is great video and pink is so your colour
A recent tomboy character who I love? Wendy from Gravity Falls. I think that show also managed to avoid all the standard pitfalls and just continuously let her be her own character. She never has to change, be more girly, or get the guy.
(also her talk with Dipper after his crush confession is phenomenal writing)
I always loathed 'traditional femininity' because I always felt forced there and was always told that I couldn't do anything that was 'masculine' in any remote way
my dad and mom always tell me i’ll grow out of it, same to my sister, they pick out clothes for me that i won’t wear and then get upset when i don’t cause i just don’t like to wear feminine things, it’s not i like to express myself. i just wanna feel comfortable in my own skin.
the idea that every woman must subscribe to a certain standard of femininity and beauty standards is also put upon trans women: while transphobes don't view trans women as women, they often use their gender expression or their looks to invalidate their identity as a woman, like when a trans woman dresses more tomboyishly and gets harassed for it because "if she's tRyInG to be a woman, she should at least dress/act" like one.
*cough cough* blaire white
As a transgender man, it was really interesting to hear a cis woman's take on this topic, you have a lot of really refreshing insights that I really appreciated! Also your editing was really engaging, and can't wait to watch more of your content!
as a non-binary person, i feel pressured to dress more masculine in order for people (even my friends) to not forget that im not cis. i love dressing fem but the moment i do so ppl just assume that im cis again. its tiring.
edit: *AGENDER*, not nb (:
(but the point stays the same)
bruh same pls let me pass as androgynous while wearing femme clothes being afab
that 'having to remind my friends im not cis' hit wayyy too close to home... **except im agender haha not ah, nb
Androgyny has been so white-masculline washed it's sad :(
@@crazydragy4233 exactly
YES THIS!!!!!!
As a tom boy myself, I hate how people in general try to put me in one of these categories:
A) You are lesbian
B) You are a trans man
NO I am a cis gender woman that does not like wearing makeup or dresses, and by the way I'm maried do a cis man.
SHOCKING, isn't it?
Edit: This video made me remember so many situations. Like having fights with my mother because I did no what to wear a girly outfit.
Or when I had to use a bride's gown, make up and hair for a school theater thing, and she took so much photos, I mean FILM PHOTOS were expensive AF, we only took photo of very important and meaningfull things, like your dauther finaly behaving like a girl.
Don't let me start about how I was completely undesired by boys in general, and mocked by girls...
Yes! When I was a teen I constantly had people assuming I was a lesbian. I didn’t mind dressing up every now and then, but it wasn’t comfortable to me.
I agree.
Or also:
C) you are a pick me girl
I’m a trans male but before that I was a female tomboy and everyone picked on me because they thought I was being a pick me, when I wasn’t even doing it to get attention I was just doing it because I was being myself.
Alternate title for this video: “Shanspear spitting facts for 24 minutes straight”
yeah but that’s all of her videos
"Why don’t you wear makeup?"
It takes time and effort, and I don’t feel comfortable wearing it.
Why? Well, lipstick leaves traces on the food I eat, and I don’t wanna ingest my lipstick. Don’t tell me to stop eating, I am a human being and I need food to survive.
Also, I touch my face a lot. If I put a beauty product on my face I will inevitably touch it and get traces of it on my fingers, or worse a glove if I’m wearing those at the moment.
And to top it off, I don’t feel any personal benefit from doing this. It doesn’t make me feel prettier, and it takes away my comfort instead of enhancing it.
Sure, some people enjoy it and I respect their preferences. It’s just not for me. Why is that associated with having a superiority complex again?
-Me, if someone ever asks that question in an accusatory way
Yoruba here. Never learned that tidbit about our culture till today. Not that it makes my parents less toxic, but it adds a new perspective to my tomboy childhood (and adulthood?). Thanks 🙏🏾
all my life ive been told I would grow out of being a tomboy and start wearing makeup and dresses, 17, and still going strong! great video!
as a female born person who grew up proudly with the tomboy label this video makes me very happy
You can get the label easy by wearing pants and climbing trees, especially if you grew up in the 70s or 80s. I had short hair, but would also dress in skirts. I was a tomboy. I never wanted to be a guy. I was a feminist. :) It was a mixed bag of things.
I wish people would stop auto-labeling tomboys as gay or trans. these people are expressing themselves through their clothing. they didnt say anything about being trans or gay let them tell you what they are because they know.
Oh, this is gonna be GOOD.
**john mulaney voice**
What's even more frustrating for some straight, cis girls that identify as tomboys is that they're occasionally expected to transition to male even if they don't actually feel like they are a man. Sure, they have those hobbies and interests, but that doesn't mean they want to be a man.
True, as a trans/nb ftm our community can be WAY TOO accepting sometimes... headcannons on real people go way too damn far let’s be honest.
does that happen though???
@@partylikeits1066 I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me.
@@flutenanyidk1806 As a cishet girl I have explained my gender feelings to a group of LGBT+ people and they would always say "well obviously you are transgender" or "obviously you are nonbinary." It's fucking annoying because I felt like I wasn't allowed to just BE as a woman, and now a group of people who I thought would be understanding think I must be something else entirely! It doesn't matter who it is. It always seems like there's a judgment from most people when the topic of womanhood and gender comes up. Why can't I just be who I am? Women just can't exist and people don't get that straight, cis girls can have complicated feelings too. Makes me damn uncomfortable.
@@IHaveNoMouth Wow! It is a real thing! I mean, I thought it was, but that was mostly an assumption. I'm sorry. That sounds really frustrating. If you want to vent a bit more and get it all out, I promise I won't judge you. I hope you'll be able to find people who do get it.
I really hated the pressure from my own mother and other girls my age to become more feminine. I grew so tired of it, I became a "not like the other girls" kind of gal. Now I think I've found my place, I don't really hate all feminine things, I've found my way to express myself.
I actually hate the pushback against "not like other girls". That trope arose for a very valid reason. People have forgotten that until only maybe the last 10 years, there was so much pressure to ONLY present as feminine and as doing everything to attract the male gaze. There was a complete unacceptance that young women could have interests that included sports, gaming, etc, and that being interested in those wasn't tied to one's sexuality or gender expression. Yeah, I agree absolutely that the pendulem definitely swung too far to the side of demonizing ultra fem girls and the quirky girl trope developed a whole other toxicity and relationship to male gaze. But for young women, including myself, (and this includes many who are on the spectrum) "not like other girls" best described the experience of we had of having varied interests that went beyond what was considered "normal" for girls and the negative effects that came from not being accepted because of our differences. Denigrating "not like other girls" feels like erasure of our lived experience.
I hope things are starting to balance out better, and folks are recognizing that having varied interests and styles just make us our own unique, well rounded person, irrespective of our gender identity or sexuality.
@@cincocats320 The thing is that I hated girly things and constantly mocked them because I wanted people to know I wasn't like that, I wanted to be taken seriously. The internalized misogyny was strong.
@@shockingheaven It really sucks that you felt so pressured. It sounds like you adopted nltog basically as a defense mechanism, and I think that's what happens to a lot of young women. Maybe it feels cringey to look back upon, but honestly, I think you can give yourself a break. Everyone does and thinks things as they grow up that feel mortifying to look back upon (at least anyone who is self aware does). It is also just part of our process of development to try on different identities and I think it is natural as part of that process to negate other identities that seem to be in conflict. Ideally people reach a point where they find that sweet spot where their identity feels balanced and truly expressed, and it sounds like you have. If they aren't able to, for wharever reason, it seems like that is where longterm trauma and mental health issues can start to arise.
@@cincocats320 Thank you. You summed it up pretty well. I mean, I wasn’t naturally inclined to ultra feminine stuff, but now I can wear makeup and skirts on my own personal way.
Those tropes were my guilty pleasure
As a nonbinary fat person who dresses for my own preference and comfort and has been terrified of having to "transform" to even just get a job has terrified me and hearing you address it makes me feel so validated and seen.
I really hate when people will automatically assume tomboys to be lesbians or trans. The many times this has happened to me is upsetting.
Y’Know, it feels like women and girls can’t be “too feminine”, nor can they be “too masculine”. Like we have to fit into a box. It feels pretty horrible. Although, I somehow moved past the point of caring what people think of me (unless it’s genuinely good criticism).
I am glad you posted this but been watching videos about niki Philippi situation so it’s good to watch a video about this !! Even tho theses topics aren’t light it’s so nice to watch and get a break been trying to get into the commentary genre on my channel love watching videos like this 🤍
Adult Tomboy. The amount of ppl who assume I'm a lesbian is 🙄 Like just ask. My parents thought I would grow out of it, especially after having a child💁🏿♀️. N yes I had a makeover done on me; for a school project(we got an A), everybody thought I was going to stay in the girly clothes and makeup afterwards.🙅🏿♀️
I find tomboys interesting. I was called one by family repeatedly as a kid, despite the fact that I was more traditionally feminine as a very young child. It was never in a demeaning way, but I remember hating being called it, because it felt like I was being equated to a boy which I was very much against at the time. As I've gotten older, my fashion style has persisted and remained tomboyish, with a simple t-shirt and jeans. However, my mom in particular had many failed attempts to make me dress more feminine as I grew up; things like forcing me to pick out skirts to buy that I never ended up wearing, pointing out more cutesy or girly articles of clothing, stuff like that.
Now, I don't remember a ton of my past. However, the time I began to look and act more like a tomboy was around the time my parents divorced. This, mind you, was right after kindergarten (the summer after). Following this, I entered a long depression that I still struggle with today. Along with my father generally being negligent and saying to my face that he'd "replaced" me, I was also bullied in school. When I wore nice, feminine clothes, I'd get picked on more and more until I stopped wearing them entirely. It's only been in recent years that I realized my tomboyish nature and tendencies came not from a genuine desire within myself to be/act more androgynous or masculine (though it's certainly more of a choice now, as I identify as somewhat greygender/genderfiuld), it came from my trauma and depression as a young child.
Though of course not everyone's story is like mine, I think that most people don't even think about why a particular person may have the qualities of a tomboy. Trauma is relative, and emotional or mental damage is still experienced by most everyone. Sure, you can be a tomboy just because you feel like it - if so, more power to you! But, for those more like myself, who were ostracized into ostracizing ourselves; the representation of tomboys in the media as a phase to grow out of rivals the sheer disregard for basic decency and understanding presented similarly with bisexuality and asexuality. People can be whatever they want, and it isn't anyone's place to police what makes a person valid.
Thank you. I'm in my 30s and you just helped me realize why I felt increasingly out of place when I grew up. People accepted me as I was when I was young even through high school, but in college I was expected to "grow out of it." As a cis-gendered hetero-female I wanted to be seen as feminine, but I wanted to still be me. These things were no longer compatible.
Let me give you a virtual hug
Another example of the 'makeover' trope would be Hermione in the goblet of fire - despite her maybe not fitting into the 'tomboy'
stereotype, she is required to 'dress up' in order for Ron to see her as a possible love interest.
Before I go into a rant I want to say that I really love the series of you going deeper into the topic of femininity as I don't feel that it gets covered enough in the way that you do it.
As someone who grew up as a tomboy, but since has found more peace with incorporating traditional femininity in my gender expression while still preserving some of the tomboyish sides of my personality etc I have so many mixed feelings about the topic of tomboys. And I apologize for the wall of text in advance :D
I have had so many confusing experiences from people treating me as a boy when I was a kid for simply being raised by parents that let me do whatever, to traumatic events making me resent the little femininity I had at the time and becoming more tomboyish being almost like a rebellion. Also feeling resentful during my teenage years thinking there is nothing inherent about being a woman that requires one to express one's gender by wearing skirts etc. I felt frustrated by my femininity being revoked as I was called trans by other people as an insult (which obv was very problematic and de-legitimizing to anyone who is trans as well as making someone who is cis feel like they don't belong anywhere as I did not see myself being one of the boys or even wanted to be one) and treated as tho being feminine was only this one thing and it resulted in me often arguing to validate myself by stating that you can still be a different version of feminine without wearing skirts etc. I was desperate for people to understand that being a tomboy and being cis were not mutually exclusive and that I viewed myself very differently from the way a non binary or trans person would view themselves. I do hope that now that we have a better understanding of trans peeps that it isn't used as an insult to be trans and that cis women who don't fall into an ultra feminine category don't feel like they are being excluded as you def feel like you don't belong anywhere as you feel like a woman and still want to be viewed as one while not expressing yourself in a stereotypically feminine way. When I was 16 I went through a phase of taking part in feminizing myself as doing these unprofessional photo shoots with friends just for the fun of it was a big thing for a lot of my peers and my friends. While I definitely enjoyed having done that and it was a fun experience. I hated that it created this situation from everyone that knew me as a "wow she can actually look pretty" and being treated as a late bloomer simply for my friends doing a make over of putting me in a dress and putting make up on my face for this one shoot. It didn't feel like I was myself in the shoot so I had no idea how to feel that way while being still me after that was behind me. This threw me into years of feeling not enough in many ways till by the time I was in my twenties I would often hyperfem myself to alleviate what I now view as gender dysphoria from the perspective of a cis woman. the sense that I feel more comfortable with myself now if I hyperfem myself to escape not feeling enough. I have been trying to balance it all nowadays as I do feel the whole "pick me" and "not like the other girls" convo is both a curse and a blessing as def some aspects of being a tomboy feel like catering to guys while some aspects are simply just a tomboy being one as it feels more like who they are and not because it scores them browny points, but because its just how they naturally lean.
I feel that all that I said probs doesn't make much sense as for the past few years I still have had no clue about how I feel about the topic and it gives me a headache each time as I don't know if the tomboy in the context of cis women expressing themselves in gender non conforming way is going to be resolved. I take issue with trans women needing to hyperfem themselves as well to be accepted as women and I am glad to see that men as well are doing their own "tomboy" thing by experimenting with make up, hairdye and jewelry among many other ornamentation more tho it does feel more like an online thing. I think the key to solving this weird idea of gender expression and gender identity being linked too closely is to see more people doing side steps both cis and trans peeps imo. I fully believe there are a lot of trans women out there that are tomboys but still are women. I want to see it being valid to be both of those things as well as neither. But gender expression has become such a convoluted mess that maybe there is no solution and being a tomboy will always be existing on shaky ground.
female masculinity is often seen as a disinterest in heterosexual romance rather than any kind of gender expression. this is why it's most acceptable in children, followed by elderly women. those are the times in a woman's life that she's least expected to perform heterosexuality by making herself desirable to men, and when she faces the least homophobic backlash for refusing to do so. almost all the old ladies with crewcuts i know were tomboys as little girls and i wouldn't be surprised to find a lot of the women i know who 'grew out' of being a tomboy will age right back into it. i wonder how many more gender nonconforming straight women would be running around if we managed to get it through our heads that gender presentation and sexuality are not the same thing
I’ve been a “tomboy” ever since I was old enough to dress myself. I’m 29 now. I’ll never forget this one time I was wearing a beanie and a hulk hogan shirt and my dad’s coworker was like “is that your son?” and my dad goes “…. She’s a girl” 😭😭 I just sat there and pretended I didn’t hear
just by the title, i know this is gonna be good
I was accidentally that tomboy/rebel at my school who wowed everyone at our formal (Australian prom I guess?). My uniform was always baggy (hand-me-downs) and I always wore a jumper no matter what. Prep for formal was pretty standard - managed to get a nice dress and someone to do my make-up and hair - but my (Greek) hairdresser wasn't available on the day and got her friend to fill in and he was very excited about making me into a 'Greek BRIDE' so my hair was... more flamboyant than we'd originally planned. But hey, I got a sequined nail file out of it! Because I won the 'wowed everyone' prize.
i need to express my huge thanks for speaking up about this!
this particular topic plays a huge part in my life. i always felt like i don't match the "standard womanhood" - from a very young age, i never liked dresses and skirts, i played with trucks and not Barbies, i hated my long hair (and the fact that my mother always forced me to have long hair and she practically yelled and me and heavily despised me after i cutted my hair in secret). i was always annoyed by everything typically associated with "femininity" and thanks to that, i was being treated as ugly and "not girly enough" and being raised the way that i started to believe that if i will not be "woman" enough i will never get the man and nobody will ever want me. even my own family treated me this way, with my grandma repeatedly telling me that i should start taking care of myself (because jeans and short hair are viewed as "not taking care enough" i guess...?) and buying me skirts and clothes that i did not wanted to wear and then left me feeling guilty that i did not wear her gifts because i simply didn't felt comfortable in skirts. i was also bullied because of the fact that i didn't dressed particulary "feminine" and in the elementary school i actually thought i am a lesbian because of my tomboy gender expression (despise the fact that i was never attracted to a single girl at that time). our society is so toxic, misogynistic and hateful towards gender-noncomforming individuals that it makes me sick to my stomach. this really needs to change.
thanks again for the video!
Yes I loved Britney’s character as a nerdy tomboy. It’s like after Cher gave her a make-over she turned her into this monster who became super male identified.
Yes! That part of the binary gender expression being limiting to two alternating poles. I have noticed some on TikTok doing the whole " Are you a girly girl or a tomboy?" All I feel when I see these on there is "Neither!" and annoyance that I will have to pick. I would say I am quite feminine in my expression but I have always identified more with tomboy characters than feminine characters in media because I can relate to feeling 'different'. I think I have identified my own version "princess ready for a sword fight" 😅
(fat paragraph, just needed to vent) i was having a discussion with my mom about how i would want my wardrobe to be like and i was really excited about it, but all she said was it's "too boyish" and "i don't think it suits you" and proceeded to tell me how she pictures me wearing skirts and bright colors and turtlenecks 24/7 (i don't mind those items in general, but give me a break) and it's really discouraging. i've ALWAYS struggled with my femininity, feeling like i'm not "girly" enough; it's even interfered with my romantic life. i feel like "i'm not feminine enough to be with a good guy" and in result i always sell myself short without even realizing it until after it happened. it also doesn't help that i'm a black girl, who's on the taller side, with a voice that's always getting mistaken as a dudes, i enjoy dressing modest, and with my actual personality not being as "girly" ("you're not like other girls" is a very common thing) it's like i'm always trying ways to expand my femininity so i can be seen as worthy. i wish i could be as carefree as some women are. it's a journey...
i dont think people realize just how much tomboy women are praised for their "not like other girls" personality and attitude. its another thing i really hate abt tthe pick me topic, alot of those girls arent the only ones saying theyre different. my personality is more masculine and i get it ALL THE TIME by men especially.
Damn you sure don't miss, this whole series has been fantastic.
Really nice to see somebody talk about this. As somebody labelled a "tomboy" in my youth, seeing those "the tomboyish girl gets a makeover to make her more desirable" scenes in movies always felt so directed towards myself. It really sent a message of "You're not good enough/attractive enough for society as you are"