Why autism is DIFFERENT from narcissism
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As an autistic person, I've learned recently that the ways I express empathy can sometimes be misconstrued as narcissistic. For example, when someone is telling me about a hard time they're going through, and I've experienced something similar, I'll tell them about my own experience. I've learned that this can be seen as narcissisticly trying to shift focus onto myself, but in my mind, its empathetic because I'm trying to comfort them and show them that they're not alone in their struggles. Empathy can present differently in autistic people than neurotypical people, and that can sometimes make it hard to see, which may be why there's this misconception that autistic people lack empathy or are narcissistic.
Thank you! My husband does this constantly. I try to make myself understand his intentions, but I fail miserably and leave the conversation feeling ‘unheard’ and invalidated-no acknowledgement of my issue before he turns it into HIS issue. I know in my head, but it still hurts my heart. 🤷🏻♀️😢
You just described my experience perfectly. It's an attempt to assure the person you understand, but they get mad and say you're not being empathetic, when it's as personal and and sympathetic as anyone could possibly get. You feel deeply for them, are expressing that, and they call you shallow. It really hurts!
To rapid descent.. Yes.. 🌿 I get this. Thank you for sharing so clearly.🌿
Same here! I do the same thing to show I’m listening and I care.
@@ppyluv He's acknowledging you and validating you. If he didn't care, he wouldn't be responding.
As an autistic, I'd like to add my two cents to the conversation:
-there is the theory of the double empathy
- some autistic have hyperempathy
- it is more common that autistics are the victims of abuse rather than abusers
- we are naive, which explains why we are abused so easily
- we Want to understand the world, we are the type of people to read about psychology, astrology, body language or whatever because we so desperately want to understand and be understood
- we don't want to hurt anybody, we feel terribly when we are told we did
- we feel very strongly about justice and injustices
- yes, it is possible to have both
This!
Omgosh God must sent this video and comment of yours to me! #1 bless you 🙏 #2 my son is struggling 😢 with this world now! I had everything set and calm. Now he is having a difficult time adjustment with his narcissist father. And it became so bad I removed us from the situation of my narcissist husband now having paranoia, hallucinations episodes. Well just returning home to get clothes. And finding a place where we can go now got cps in our face creating more of a issue than it was. Now anyone would say just go don't look back..how when you have 2 family members suffering mental health illness and here's the icing on the cake...I had a broken fibula on crutches. And it's a pandemic shutdown, no where to go. Other family lied helping you. No resources called back to stay after calling and you are definitely trying to prevent your family from getting covid so you can't go to shelter. Only few friends where you don't wanna become a burden staying with. So nobody knows what autism is, how to manage behavior issues. She's correct in video my teen started developing the behavior of having lack of empathy. He usually is loving and caring about others feelings now he's like and So what it doesn't have not to do with me. I don't care! If I feed him fish, vegetables he's calm, if I got my gospel music playing at bedtime he's relax. But anyone contact from court he's combative, disrespectful and I have to worry about elopement. Thank God he wears his medical dog tag.
Anyways thanks for a great aspect of your life it helped plus this video.
#iambeauteymafia 🌹
As a fellow autistic, I very much appreciate these additions
God bless all the nauticisstic people in the world
Thank you for the additional information! I agree with you 100%
As someone with ASD Level 1, I really appreciate this video. I have been told before that I acted like a Narcissist, and it CRUSHED me. I never want to hurt someone with my words, mostly when I speak frankly to someone, its just because I don't have the ability to think it through and say it more diplomatically. As someone who was raised by a narcissist mom, trust me, there's a big difference. She just waves it off when she hurts people and gives some kind of justification about why she had every right to say whatever. I hate it when someone gets their feelings hurt by what I say, and it stays in my mind FOREVER that I hurt that person. I still think about things I said, twenty-some-odd years later. We are not the same.
Absolutely spot on.
Don't worry, these days even someone who does not have autism can express empathy and have it wind up insulting someone. What I have learned to do is say "I am so sorry, would you like to talk about it?" Then I just listen, alot of the time people are just looking to vent, and need someone to hear it. Understand you're not doing anything wrong at all, so much toxicity in our society today, especially in social media, people seem to just fly off the handle for no reason at all.
Whoever said that was the narcissist - and is projecting.
What always gets me is that I tend to speak to people the way I would like them to speak to me. I appreciate the truth, and I don’t like for it to be hidden behind 10 layers of diplomacy and insinuation.
Then I insert my foot firmly into my mouth.
Exactly how I feel. I don't want people to have to try to "figure out" what I'm trying to say. But then they do anyway because NTs aren't trained to take things at face value. LOL@@derp195
This video was instrumental in the healing of the relationship between my father and me. He passed away in october, and for years I was convinced he was a narcissist but I started to realize after watching this that he was most likely on the autism spectrum. And I started to actually see his attempts at empathy, and when he passed away, we were very close and for that I will be eternally grateful to you. Right before he passed away, his last words were, "I love you," said to me while i held his hand. He had not spoken for a day and a half but managed to get those words out right before passing
That is truly heartbreaking and heart-warming. It is.
However, I think you ought to know that maybe just maybe... your dad was neither.
Maybe he was just who he was, warts and all. No need for a bogus "diagnosis".
Soldier on.
i feel the same way about my father. God bless you. May you see your father at the pearly white gates one day.
I’m sorry for your loss.
@@meeperbird What "loss"?
What are you referring to?
What are you even talking about?
@@justaperson8144 Correct. There are absolutely no research or talk or explanation or study - how much damage mentally ill parent do to their children - and that children end up being diagnosed and misdiagnosed, carrying forced stigma by DSM and CBT that totally ignores the ACE and ACoA - but instead medical industry forces children of mentally ill parent to carry their parent's diagnosis as their own for the rest of their lives.
The damage that mentally ill parent does to his children snowballs into more and more injustice and tragedy.
There's a legal concept called absence of malice, and I think, regarding the brutal honesty in verbal communication, may apply to the person living with autism. An autistic person is not the intentional tormentor that a narcissist is.
Really good point
That's the bottom line.
@@kates8183 hi! To further elaborate, I watch the Big Bang Theory on DVD, and the Sheldon character, in the beginning is an example of ASD. He was not malicious in the earlier seasons, but was written as vindictive in later ones. I think there was a lack of understanding on the part of the writers about the differences between the 2 reasons for unfiltered tactless communication. Interestingly, while Sheldon was shown plotting revenge on a colleague who caused him an ego injury (a mistake on the part of the writers) Sheldon was so clumsy socially that his revenge backfired hilariously on him due to improper planning.
@@kimslone5185 I have a “friend” that often brings up publicly about being on the spectrum and will be insensitive, unempathetic unless it’s in other peoples posts. However, in private discussions he will be rageful and plays the victim. He always reacts angrily if you privately say that his actions or words hurt. . I couldn’t quite place my unease about the switch in behavior and this helped clear it up. My gut was telling me one thing and I was thinking another. I had a cousin that was severely autistic and a friend that was less so and the friend in question doesn’t so much align with how they were in public and private. They were the same person both places.
Dr. Ramani described it best by saying that the narcissist will turn it on and off as it suits them.
Yes yes yes! Thank you for these words!
Personally, I'm on the autistic spectrum and I've realized over the past year that my ex was a narcissist. What's so weird is that I honestly thought he was just like me and had trouble expressing himself. As you might imagine, he took me to the cleaners emotionally. I'm still honestly recovering from it.
I’m sorry you experienced that, Jeremy.
Narcissistic abuse is a truly horrible thing to go through. I'm still recovering from my experience too. Wishing you all the best that you have a happy and healthy recovery. Sending much love to a fellow survivor.
I'm in the exact same case exept that my ex had been diagnosed with autism as an adult but without any testing. I firmly believed for years he was autistic. But his good social abilities and his seek for novelty plus manipulation capacities started me wondering. After his mistreatments and abusive behaviors toward me I finally left him.
Thus im still very angry about this issue on his fake diagnosis.
I believed for years he was someone he actually is not, and he played an "autistic" role for a couple of years and then he changed.
Another issue is he loves to shine and be the center of attention and the autism spectrum community brought him that and nourished his entitlement and grandiosity.
Makes me so sad for the community and now I question the authenticity of all the leaders within the autistic community. I wish autism specialists learn more about similarities and differences to stop making the confusion between both conditions.
@@leslecturesdemarie7994
Wow yes this is also great to keep in mind too. Thank you for taking the time in sharing and contain this with us too
@@leslecturesdemarie7994 How awful, hiding one disorder behind another to excuse his behavior. That does sound familiar though.🤔
Thank so much for addressing this topic! I was married to a high functioning autistic man who was not diagnosed until he was 57. People thought he was a narcissist, but he never attempted the games, abuse, and uncaring attitudes I've experienced from narcissists. He was SO high functioning and social even I could not identify his autism, but I knew he was not a narcissist--we were married for 39 years, and were pretty happy together. Any trouble we had getting along was due to his autism. I could NEVER have put up with a narcissist that long! One of our kids also has autism, same type, and she didn't get identified until she was in her late 20s. Their sociability is what threw off the therapists--very high functioning autistic people can be very social, although this can exhaust them. Both my daughter and husband (he passed away last year) had trouble understanding other people, though, and both were brutally honest, even if it got them in trouble. They're 2 of the most ethical people I've ever known. My husband never cheated and was as reliable as the day is long. I'll take autism over narcissism ANY day!
Just out of curiosity (because it sounds so similar to what I experience) would your husband and daughter have random bursts of fight or flight from benign stimuli even if those things happened commonly?
autistic ppl tend to have poor affective (emotional) empathy
compensate for it with cognitive empathy
people who aren’t aware of that usually get caught off guard because we tend to not take on their emotions
that’s usually the *only way* people will communicate theirs so…
ya to people who haven’t learned how to manage their negative emotions it can’t appear that an autistic person is narcissistic
get this all the time personally then they get to know us and go “oh actually a bit of a sweetheart”
ya…
it’s all in their head but we can’t do anything about that
only allistic ppl can learn to change their incorrect assumptions about us
never gonna happen tho omg
we’re #queer and #indigenous more than used to straight cisgendered able bodied white people never learning a thing
just reality
welcome to the table
cheers
#2Spirit #autism #philosophy #ottawa #adhd #audhd
@@kevinhowe543 My daughter more so than my husband. It got better as she got older.
Not to be a downer or ruin the vibe because this is a great story!!
But as an autistic person myself, I just wanted to point out a little thing
The “functioning” labels (high functioning and low functioning) are actually harmful to us
It’s better for people to refer to us as the level of support needs we require
For example; one autistic person with high support needs may be different from another autistic people with low support needs.
Your husband may be described by others as having low support needs, instead of high functioning
Just one thing I wanted to bring up because not a lot of people seem to know this and don’t realise it can be harmful. But again, really lovely story ❤️ wishing you and your husband all the best!
@@RedFoxSkull I am a Level 1 ASD woman in my 60s. Before I retired I worked very closely with IDD adults specifically ASD individuals needing more support than Level 1. Some were non-verbal.
I personally prefer the older version- high functioning. I find older people from generations before understand it better and tend to be less apt to label us as "special needs" which I don't feel fits my life because I take very good care of myself. It's a dignity issue. My 3 year-old grandson who is autistic as well and currently non-verbal is special needs, in need of supports. At this stage in his life he needs the label.
I’m autistic.
Our “lack of empathy” is misunderstood. We have it, we just express it differently or unexpectedly. Eg: I’m willing to unload the dishwasher. It is a mystery to me that my husband saying “I’m tired” secretly means “can you please unload the dishwasher?”, so when I say “ok” in response to “I’m tired”, it’s apparently not the correct response..
It’s the double empathy problem. We communicate empathy effectively with other autistic people - but neyrptypicals expect a very specific and mysterious type of empathy demonstration in response to their indirect communication.
I never suspected myself until recently, and looking back, I realize I tend to surround myself with autistic people because they're the only people that really make sense to me.
Same! I really wish neurotypicals would drop their act and be direct.
Exactly. So who is it that has the "deficit" here? If your husband is tired why not be direct "honey I'm really tired would you mind emptying the dishwasher?" I feel that neurotypical people have the deficit with their vague communication styles 😂
@@BB-xx3dv Absolutely not true. Maybe it's true for you, but that doesn't mean it is for the rest of us, or even most of us.
I can't even watch sad movies or cringe comedy like curb your enthusiasm because watching people in distress is too much for me.
Autistic people probably hate it when you tell them that because it's wrong, and most people don't appreciate when others insist on incorrect things about their own experience.
@@BB-xx3dv No matter how much you insist, you can't change reality. How can you be so incredibly arrogant that you think you know others better than they know themselves? It's almost impressive.
My mother in law convinced my wife I was a narcissist and they both treated me as such. I’m currently undergoing testing… for autism. And I can tell you this, if you treat some with ASD like a narcissist, you will literally put them through mental torture. And I’m not downplaying the torture.
So sorry you had to go through that, I have personal experiences that are similar and I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy. Also, my gut tells me your MIL sounds like a narcissist herself.
On the other hand, if I don't set boundaries with the autistic person I'm going to be tortured by them. If you're a caretaker or have authority you can approach it differently, but if you don't have influence or power, boundaries are the only defense.
@@DeniseSkidmore thank you for popping in with this. My MIL is on the spectrum with problematic beliefs and my brother in law, her son, is an untreated autistic adult and dependent on the family. Being around my wife’s mother is the most exhausting thing I’ll ever do.
Yeh ppl are fucking cruel ay , it's made me a bitter cunt ay
@@DeniseSkidmore boundaries are the only defense against what? What would an autistic person do to you
A good anylagy is between a blind person bumping into you and a person who can see clearly deliberately walking into you. One an accident that the person regrets and can learn to avoid but has reasons why they may struggle and need a toolkit or support like a stick or a dog to see for them.
The other just a jurk who will gaslight you to convince you that you walked into them and it's your fault. It's you that needs help.
wow what a brilliant example. Thank you
I have low vision & that’s an excellent analogy :-)
Nice, thanks!!
Perfect analogy.
THIS. Also, I will add the analogy of society as the crowded bus/subway/etc: you WILL step on feet or bump into someone else no matter what, it's unavoidable.
In that situation, you apologize even *if* an external factor or someone else's actions caused you to do harm, you try to make yourself more aware of the space you are taking and address it as best as possible.
The narcissist is the equivalent of someone who doesn't apologize *or* even quickly direct blame at the wider cause (e.g. the pothole, the person who bumped into them) but who stomps on the foot and grinds to make sure there's broken bones or whose hand lingers for an unwanted touch.
I am a high functioning Autist that grew up with two narcissist parents. This combination made my childhood a living hell. There were parts of my life where I just didn't talk very much because my parents made it very clear that my emotions and opinions didn't matter. Autistic people have a tendancy to be mute even without abusive parents. It's a miracle I started talking again to be honest.
Anyway,
The best way I can describe Autism is not understanding social norms, having difficulty with expressing emotions and regulating emotions, difficulty with empathy, hyperfixation of special interests, autistic burnout, and difficulty with communication (having little to no filter).
I studied psychology as a special interest for many years so I could grow out of my autism and learn how to talk to people like a normal person. Now because of my research I dare say I have overcome most challenges with Autism and I communicate BETTER than most normal people! Autism doesn't have a "cure" but a lot of it can be managed with education and therapy. I'm still very much an Autist, but I no longer feel most of the symptoms associated with it. The hyperfixation of special interests will never go away though, and I'm ok with that. It's the reason I'm so fucking smart!
I also struggle with the empathy thing. I have what I like to call "selective empathy." I have empathy to the point where it gives me Autistic Burnout, so I have to pick and choose what I will be empathetic about otherwise I crash. I care deeply about the people close to me and I care a lot about people in general, but I can't be bothered to be hyper empathetic to every stranger I see on the street or at the grocery store. I also spend a lot of empathetic energy on myself, to remind myself that my feelings matter and are important. So when I'm going through a hard time and practicing self care, when someone else I care about comes to me with their problems, I feel like I care about them and their plight but I can't be bothered to give them all my empathy because there will be none left for myself. I know that probably doesn't make any sense but that's how it is living with Autism. Sometimes you just can't be bothered to give a shit about another school shooting, or someone's pet dying, or a genocide happening in another country. I care about these things but I can't cry about every tradgedy. It would seriously burn me out.
Thank you for your honesty in explaining your experience. As I read I was able to fill in the gaps with someone I know who might experience what you experience. I do feel I was lead here by our Father God. Lots of love and support. Shalom ❤
do you have to deliberate use willpower to resist that empathy when you dont want to feel it?
also, something about self empathy, forgot what I had in mind.... is it autistic trait that sometimes projection is very strong but cant notice it until too late? misjudge it as empathy but it is just personal feelings so strong, see other people through that lense and then cant really see their emptions... but cant easily notice this flaw yourself
Sounds like you have done so much to help yourself; You should be very proud to have worked to hard. My son has slight Asperger's with some narcissistic traits. Due mostly to his narcissistic father. I pray he understands himself better and learns so much more , as you have.
Wish I could spend the rest of my life not speaking. I remember thinking my home was sick but other people are not then I became an adult and found out most people are sick just like my home but I can't lock the door or avoid them 😂 it's even worse these days with everyone demanding to be identified as unique and special practically foaming at the mouth to pull a victim card 🤮
Also, I agree. Don't let the narcissists drain you. They're a bottomless pit.
I live with my autistic partner. And I have had exes in the past who are narcissistic. There is a palpable difference.
High functioning ASD here, some of us do have empathy, sometimes too much. Think of your emotions and social interaction as being automatic, an autistic person has a manual system. When we are interacting with another person, we search through a list of possible responses based on what has worked before or what we have witnessed other people do either in real life or on TV and in Movies. We rehearse these constantly and a great deal of planning goes into social contact. We memorise jokes, stories, and news articles so we have something to talk about, practice responses and facial expressions, study body language and rhythm of speech. We run through the conversation we are likely to have with you before we meet you, we break it down afterwards to see what bits worked and what didn't and store that away for next time. So if you take us by surprise or go "off script" or it is a situation we have not come across before, we empathise but are not sure of the response, especially if we don't know you that well. An example: A colleague at work announced that she was being made redundant and started crying, this came out the blue. Do I pat their shoulder? Hug her? Say something sympathetic? Say an experience that I had that was similar to show I understand how they are feeling? Cry with them? Call someone? Fetch a glass of water? Meanwhile, I am just standing there awkwardly watching her cry while I take far too long to decide. Automatic for you, a minefield for us. I genuinely have no clue which of those was the best response in that situation. Also in my experience, no autistic person wants to be the center of attention (unlike a narcissist). We have been bullied too much to enjoy a circle of faces fixed on us. All our energy goes into just trying to present as "normal" and we prefer to do that out of the spot light. As you can imagine all this is exhausting and this is why we avoid socialising.
This is spot on for me. I often feel like Google, like if you cry I can present a lot of options for you to feel better, but not really show a lot of emotion or warmth. Inside I feel what you feel and later at night I'll probably still feel bad for you and wish I could have helped you more.
WHOA you put it so well. Whoa. Goodness. That really sums it up. Okay. Wow. Thank you for this comment.
Thank you so much for making this so clear. 😢
This is me and im not diagnosed
That's a beautiful and clear explanation of your thinking processes being manual instead of automatic....Ty❣️
I thought my husband was narcissistic but after so many therapists for our marriage we finally found someone that could diagnose him...and me for that matter. Very high functioning autism. She was actually amazed that we made it as far as we did seeing as I have ADHD. Here is the thing, as soon as she diagnosed him our marriage got to the best it has ever been. I realized he just didn't get it and I became ok with it. He had no idea that he was hurting me. Everything changed. He is such a wonderful guy. 27 years and counting.
I find it mindblowing how many psychologists are incapable of telling the difference between a toxic person and a confused ND person and ending up diagnosing autistic/ADHD people with NPD... :(
Wow that's great!!
So many ADHD having relationships with ASD pp ❤
@@Bea359that part-
@@Bea359it’s just when you mask so fucking much that you can’t even recognize yourself and your decisions anymore it becomes this huge monster over time inside of you and it shows on the outside if you don’t take care of yourself or treat yourself right and it really starts to effect the people around you and they think you’re a narcissist….. sorry for the long paragraph lol.
As an autistic person, raised by narcissistic people, I’ve always feared I was too. I was told by multiple therapists that the fact that I am afraid I am, is good evidence that I’m not, but it still was a concern for me.
This really helped, thank you
If you are autistic, most likely one of your parents is also.
Autism can sometimes look outwardly like a mild form of narcissism. Generally, you won't see manipulative behavior, lying, or intentional malace in an autistic person that you would see in someone with a narcissistic personality.
@@milkywayranchsc oh I know one of not-both are probably on the spectrum. But one particular 100% fits the malignant narcissist criteria. There is no doubt in my mind. We’ve also had family therapists who have suggested this but they did not want to listen… much like a narcissist. I also was not only talking about my parents but also the adults in my life, some whom I was not related to.
At the least, they have narcissistic tendencies, due to their parents who were DEFINITELY narcissists (seriously, the horrors that my grandparents inflicted on my parents is beyond wild)
I’ve been studying this stuff for almost a decade, I’m hopes to better understand myself and my family. I don’t toss around the word “Narcissist” Willy nilly, they show clear and obvious signs of narcissistic abuse and manipulation.
@@RipMyTamagachi I hear you and do not doubt your experience. I am confused though if someone can truly be autistic and a malignant narcisist. Is authenticity and kindness part of the autistic traits or is it not? It is in the people I know on the spectrum. How can an authentic person be a compulsive liar? How can a gentle person enjoy causing someone else to suffer? Either the conditions are not well defined or they are not applied consistently.
@@milkywayranchsc being nice and authentic is not an autistic trait. That’s a very commonly misunderstood concept people have. That aside, though on the rarer side, it is still possible to have NPD and Autism. It is more common to co occur with BPD, which can mimic symptoms of NPD. I don’t know for sure if it is both, or maybe because they were raised by narcissists, so it’s also common for autistic people to mimic the behaviors of what they were raised with, without actually having that diagnosis.
Either way, my parents were emotionally, mentally and sometimes physically abusive with me my entire childhood. I know autism has been diagnosed on both sides so it clearly runs in our DNA, along with my family having a lot of co-morbid diagnoses.
@@RipMyTamagachi thank you for sharing your insights.
It is not that us on the spectrum don't have empathy or understand emotions. The challenge is communication of emotions - our challenge is to IDENTIFY and EXPRESS them.
As someone on the ASD spectrum, these key differences lead me to feel as though us with autism and narcissists are natural enemies. We have almost a self depreciating modesty and feel a deep sense of injustice when others try to use bad faith to manipulate and won't engage in fair play. To me, it's nails on a chalkboard to me when I see egomaniacle, narcissistic people in the world who would rather gaslight and manipulate than be honest, whereas my asd has, I feel, always made me obsessed with the truth above all else.
I agree. Such people can make my skin crawl just from the way they talk to other people (or to me) 😆
It's the fact that many of us struggle to understand our social world and want to behave appropriately, but then these other people who outwardly may seem to share some traits with us confidently waltz out and turn that world on its head for their own benefit. It's frustrating and illogical, but since we autistics are often on the back foot when it comes to charisma, we're easily overpowered by narcissistic personalities and may begin to conform because we're often scared of upsetting people accidentally; ie. we're too quick to believe that _we're_ the problem.
Bet you are an INFJ. Hello there friend ☺
i think the narcissist made me realize the darker parts of my personality even if it was her own projections, but she knew i was very naive and overconfident in myself. and watching her deal with people made me learn ways i can get myself a better situation if i advocated for myself, but still really damn confused when put into unfamiliar social situations, i also wish i had the ability to shout at others to get what i wanted and the lack of empathy to torture restaurant workers, such an antagonistic strategy doesn't really work for them though. or even use someones medication as a means to convince them to not leave.
holy shit that's the exact same way i feel! i wish i could just ignore narcissists instead of spending so much energy on being mad at them
My youngest son is diagnosed as being a high functioning autist, but he has a lot of empathy. He has also matured very significally over the years (now he is 38) and very intelligent, he lives on his own in his own house, pays his bills and function really well, to my joy. If I am sad - I always call him first, he understands me and comfort me! I love him so much!
Sometimes i feel narcissistic but, i also think i have Aspergers, and i do have a lot of empathy also. So maybe I’m NOT a narcissist. ❤️.
My son has autism, Dr Ramani has done a very intelligent and respectful video on this issue. I would add that sometimes people on the autism spectrum have a lot of empathy but the biggest problem is they don't communicate it. This is why asd is mostly a communication issue. But the feelings are there. My son sometimes has more empathy than anyone else around but he gets overwhelmed so can't show it properly/adequately.
Love you so much Dr Ramani. You are helping so many people ❤❤❤
@@EphemeralProductions you should watch Patrick teahan licsw.
@@EphemeralProductions In Baron Cohen's video is the clear explanation of difference between cognitive and emotional empathy. AS have emotional empathy intact, whereas NPD has cognitive empathy intact. It help me a lot to understand the difference between the two diagnoses.
@@magdanisponska9084 I’ll have to look up j of them and make sure i understand them both. So that i can tell if it’s narcissism in my case or autism
I’ve been accused of being narcissistic by narcissists & am getting evaluated for autism. This was super helpful ❤ what I’d add is that autistic people feel empathy & may sometimes just struggle to have scripts or know what to say partly because the empathy is overwhelming
I agree fully. When we hear someone has been hurt by our unfiltered words, we also hurt deeply at thinking we’ve hurt someone. Narcissists don’t feel that way. They simply do not care.
most of us autistics have narcissistic traits tho it’s a trauma disorder
counterintuitively narcissism is an absence of pride
go figure eh?
we (#2Spirit here - 1 man soul & 1 woman soul in 1 body) feel it’s a combo of both autistics being traumatized and allistics being also largely unaware of how narcissistic they may be…
it’s a combo that just doesn’t cancel out it amplifies like constructive interference unfortunately
we have #autism too we’ve been working on trimming our Ego lots cause the allistics are never gonna learn about us
#audhd #ottawa #indigenous
edit: we don’t know how large their Egos are so we use coded messages to figure that out
then we grieve with the Void of space until knowing how bad it is no longer bothers us
at that point they usually start to hear you cause you no longer care if they do
karma
apparently most white folk don’t have our culture 🏹
edit x 2: no not a Leo ♌️ however our sun is Aries ♈️ and our rising is Scorpio ♏️ so we can see how you’d get that
ya our Ego’s an annoying phoquer
Narcasists do project. And everyone inhales.
@@selecttravelvacations7472narcessists Hurt people cause they do Not Care and Lack empathy cause how could Something beside them BE importent?! Autistic people on the Other Hand often have high empathy but Lack the Skill identity what the Other IS Feeling Just based on Bodylanguage or tone of voice, AS well AS lacking the instinctually knowlage If expressing their empathy in a way the Other gets
@@KhaoticDeterminism ???wtaf
I’ll tell you the difference! They used to use me and victimize me for being honest, loving and empathetic. I found another nice autistic person to marry (SWEET hubby) and we’ve been married since 2007. What I did decide to do was turn my analytical skills into a tool to protect myself and everyone else. I learned every red flag, every type, every behavior trait, and then did the same thing about sociopaths and psychopaths. My facial expressions might not be flamboyant enough for every Neurotypical to read, but the guys I’m spotting, they can tell I see it! 🤣🤣🤣 They can read my expressions, they can tell I have empathy for everyone else in the room and that I’ve spotted them and I don’t think they should be alive on this earth. 😂 Their level of perception is scary, but get yourself an Autistic friend and get them to see behavior as patterns (we love patterns and anomalies) as opposed to a baffling mystery and you have yourself a sword and shield against those guys! ❤
Yes. Thank you. 💯
We don't lack empathy at all due to autism, we just have a hard time seeing emotions. When we know what someone else is feeling, we feel it.
Often we feel it more, and we get other autistic peoples feelings right away whereas neurotypical people have a deficit in understanding our emotions and communication
Interestingly empathetic to a fault sometimes but the difference is it is hard to identify all the emotions. And it's really hard to identify when a toxic person is presenting in ways that mask that they are toxic. That's why it's so hard for autistic or neurodivergent people to understand or recognize people that aren't actually nice people period it takes more practice for them
Because we are "starseeds" INFLICTED with "autism", by colonizers?
And to "counter" us?
AGREED!!! I feel others pain so intensely it overwhelms me.
As an aspie, I feel like autism carries much more genuine fear of socialization and tons if guilt for social interactions. I'll lie awake running through the the days events, overanalyzing & feeling so much guilt over anything I may have said that could have been taken the wrong way or secretly upset someone. I don't think Narcissists feel any of that. I don't imagine they ever think twice about their social interactions after they get what they need.
Thank you for posting this comment. My teen aspie describes the very same thing. Ruminating at night and cringing at the social mistakes, also feeling so confused by them, and there is a sadness and anxiety with that.
Right!!, they wouldn't, agreed!!! 😮😮
Yes🤚🏽me🙏🏽♥️thank you!
That's why a lot of us develop anxiety,and anti anxiety meds can actually be helpful.
Exactly!!
I really appreciate your due diligence. Some things for your listeners to consider:
1. Spectrum means a wide range of variations in presentation.
2. Neurodivergent humans and neurotypical humans can experience a double empathy issue that affects the perception of empathy.
3. ADHD and Autism can be comorbid, and you will see some impulsiveness and extroverted behaviors. However, the intent to harm isn't present.
4. Autistic adults may present with a trauma history from childhood and will experience shame, but it will most likely stay internalized and not projected.
Suspected autistic man here with a suspected narcissist father. Our personalities are so different that nobody would mistake us for each other if they listened to what we said, wrote, or did. I often feel like I failed when things go wrong even if they're completely out of my control, like if a family member or friend dies of a drug overdose. I'll feel like I failed to somehow intervene in their lives in an effective way to save them. My father doesn't take the blame for anything, even when he directly causes things to go wrong. This complete opposite philosophy of our responsibility for the consequences of actions that happen around us is an easy tell: I struggle with feelings of guilt constantly while I don't think he understands guilt.
Thank you for that clarification.
My ex is a narcissist, while our children are autistic. The ex was manipulative, shallow, hurtful, but charming and popular to those outside the family. My youngest child is so kind, caring, and sensitive. He wants to help people and animals, but he struggles to have relationships because he can't "perform" social norms.
this 100%. You just described the difference between me (autistic) and my mom (narcissist).
Yeah, i needed Like 3 minuts to even get how someone comes Up with confusing them, though after a while of thinking I got IT. While some Symptoms and behaviors can get confused for eachother, the reason for the behavior and how exactly IT expresses IS AS opposite AS can BE in many cases. Yeah there are Low empathy autists too, but thats usually Not the problem
As an autistic who was raised by a narc and then married one, I appreciate you talking about this. Most of us would be horrified if we ever hurt someone, and are quick to apologize. And while we may not read cues the same way as others, we actually feel very deeply and have a strong sense of justice. Certainly there can be autistic narcs (my adult child is one), but we're more likely to be a victim of a narc because we miss the red flags NTs would catch. Our alexythemia makes our emotional responses look different, but we do feel and we do care!
Very beautifully expressed. I was thinking the same things.
Absolutely!
I dont think narsisism and autism normally look very alike at all. But my father has autism, and most likely is narsisistic at the same time. And with HIM I feel like the asberger parts makes his narsisistic tendensies alot more complicated and hard to deal with. I feel like those two things are very difficult to handle when their put together. Many autistic people I know are carefull and kind and better people then alot of non autistic people, but with my father its a very different kind of story.
I'm similar to you and agree with everything you said about being easy meat for narcissists, and about the depth of autistic empathy 💛🤗
However, I was very triggered and disappointed by the use of deficit models of autistic differences in this video 😊xx
That's my story as well. My mother is a narc (more like psychopath really) and I am autistic with C-Ptsd. My dad might have been autistic as well, he was so kind and caring and childish, but i will never know. He died close to 10 days before my 14th birthday.
I'd love to see a video about autistic people in narcissistic relationships. I found out I'm autistic after leaving one. For so long, I was tormented by the fear that I had actually been the abuser. I realized this was reactive abuse and my autism symptoms manifesting (disregulation, sensory overload, etc). And then I had the horrible realization that my autism likely left me more vulnerable to being taken advantage of in the first place. I was absolutely oblivious to red flags, lies, and manipulations. I also didn't have much experience with relationships because social interactions have always been a huge problem. So to then experience the love bombing, it was just so easy to fall for it. I bet there are others who've had this kind of dynamic who would appreciate more insight
I experienced the love-bombing phase in my teens. I can say that i dodged that bullet, not because i realised then that he was a narc. I discovered that 28 years later! Talking about not getting social clues! Instead, i think it was my autism what saved me. I'm always searching for patterns and statistics. And this narc was hot-and-cold from one day to another, and most people are not like this. Also, all that sudden demostrations and declarations of undiying love were very nice, and much needed back then, but were also somewhat illogical. I'm used to be overlooked, so that was not according to the statistics in my life. So, i was suspicious of his behavior. At the end, he thought I was so much effort and discarded me, and i was left with a broken heart, thinking that i hurt him. I felt regretful for a few years, but then I met someone with whom everything was clean and different. So, I am very grateful for being autistic, because I think it saved me a lot of years of psychological torture and suffering.
I’m autistic and have survived several abusive relationships. I project my kindness onto them and give them so many second chances because I know what it is to be misunderstood. One of my exes pretended that he was autistic and used it as an excuse to never take accountability for anything. Anyone who uses a disability as an excuse to not change abusive behaviour is not only being abusive but ableist and our society supports it unfortunately
Yes, great idea for a video!
I went through almost exactly the same thing and would also love a video on this
Are you a female? They wrote a book about how autistic females can try to be more safe in our interactions with our partners. But I think that it applies to everyone that is autistic. I think that we tend to attract abusive people because we are quite literal and due to things like theory of mind. Logically, I know that people lie and can be manipulative. But I am not, so I find it hard to catch it when it's happening to me because my brain refuses to acknowledge that people can be mean since I am not. I create rational explanations of behavior. It's gotten to the point that friends and family have shown concern in my choices in partners since they've all been quite abusive. I am taking a break from dating because I need to figure out better ways to protect myself from abusive people.
So yes, in theory I know what red flags are, what to look out for, etc. But my brain just kinda refuses to acknowledge this in the present moment. I might recognize it LATER when looking back, but not at that moment because my brain will not just even think that someone is intentionally being awful. And due to the autism, I assume that I did something wrong so I am quick to apologize. If you're autistic, you really need to be careful about dating. I'll even suggests that we are better off just dating other autistic people. Not saying that autistic people can't also be abusive, but there's going to be a level of understanding that will never exist in an ASD-NT relationship. These relationships are also imbalanced and it takes a lot of learning for these relationships to be successful. I've found that the NT has to be very parental or patient or it will end in a disaster. At this moment in my life, I think that I only want to date other autistic people.
My husband is high functioning autistic & the kindest human I’ve ever met - 50 years later, I still feel this way. We struggled with communication in the beginning. A very helpful tool was binge watching tv series during the pandemic; specifically Gray’s anatomy. We anticipate the next steps of the characters & this really helped him & me to get understand each other & validate past experiences.
Thats really interesting can you explain more how like, how that worked? Were you just comparing your interpretations of characters' intentions ?
@@bubbashrimp - YES! It’s about the character development of the writers. I’d ask how do you think Burke will react, or do you think Meredith will recover. He’d answer & I’d give my opinion explaining my position. It was fascinating to watch him put the pieces together (could tell he was actually studying). It can be done with any long running show; we did it with “Friends” too… “Chandler would never do that”. I didn’t tell him it was “a lesson” but he appreciated it as an education. Gray’s Anatomy was better because it was more of a drama with deeper emotions. Hope this helps.
50 years of marriage and communication just fixed during the pandemic?
@@ShrinkRai - No! Greatly improved though. He’s always been kind & intelligent - that’s why we’ve been together for so long.
One reason I have been a little frustrated with the huge push for recognition of “neurodivergent” people online is that some influencers are using these terms in a way that increases misinformation, so that many people who are just a bit awkward or socially odd (like myself) start thinking that they have autism.
I’m still trying to figure out if this feeling is coming from the stubbornly pedantic side of myself or if there is an actual possibility of harm. I’m a psychologist and I’m not at all a fan of the diagnostic / medical model that has been pushed into the field of psychology and counseling. Maybe I think that all these influencers claiming to be neurodivergent (not saying all the people making claims, just all the people making false claims) are part of the unhealthy pathologization of typical behavior.
I’m an autistic adult with multiple disabilities. I’m struggling with a ending an narcissistic relationship. Thank you for your videos. You have taught me how to be indifferent. I struggle with comm issues and memory and emotional disregulation. I’m high functioning.I think that ppl with autism are the most empathetic ppl in this world. Ppl who have disabilities want to be loved, I want just be accepted and loved and validated.
I'm autistic, my bio mother is a narcissist. My grandparents have said they think me and her are similar, but we really aren't. I don't lack the ability to apologise or recognise when I've done wrong, or feel bad when I hurt someone accidentally. I don't manipulate people. I only seek to be as decent of a person as I can. But communication gaps can make that a problem. I care about people's feelings, I just can't always read them or know the correct response. :(
Yea, this caring about other feelings is something I missed throughout the video. Yes, it's true a lot of us autistic people have problems picking up feelings from others, but that doesn't mean we don't care about someone. There's also more than one way to read someone, care for someone and be there for someone. Since I've got kids I've noticed other parents seem more genuine and empathetic to kids than me (immediately knowing what to say and act happily, where I'm looking for words), but when something's wrong or they're about to do something I'll pick up from their behavior alone what they need. Faster than the neurotypical parents. Especially the young ones, who can't communicate with words easily.
I wish people would stop saying people with autism lack in certain ways. We don't lack, we just do it differently. Also, communication is always a two way street. Why are we - the autistic people who're supposed to be bad at communicating or reading someone - the ones needing to learn how to be like neurotypicals. Is it our fault that we're not always giving the right response, or is it the fault of the communicating person who's not speaking in a way we understand? We might "lack" at always knowing how to response, but neurotypicals lack in finding ways to communicate to autistic people just as much. 🤷
Anyway, I hope your family recognises soon that you and your mum aren't the same. It'd make me very angry being compared to a narcissist. TBH this video already made me angry. I never knew people compared autism and narcissistic traits. They're actually not similar at all. I'd never purposely hurt anyone, or use them for my gain. On the contrary, I often lie awake being scared that I hurt someone's feelings, even random strangers in the street I only interacted a few words to. 😄
Figured out while back that narcissist would never worry about being a narcissist..
everyone manipulates in some ways sometimes you don't even know if you are doing it and no harm is meant. words have influence period.
@@sofiasaviranta5640 I share some of the traits of a narcissist not all and i question myself am I one or not. scares me to death if im being honest. that is not who I want to be.
Our stories are very similar, Autistic, narcissist parents.
I've been stuck in the thought loop of trying to figure out what I am, rather than who I am.
If you are genuinely concerned about being a decent person, that is all that really matters.
Keeping in mind that there’s a high comorbidity between ASD and ADHD, its fair to say that there will certainly be people with ASD who experience difficulties with impulsivity and with the effective regulation of emotions and reactions.
Yes my son has a dual.diagnosis of asd and adhd
Yep. That me. 😔
Exaclty what I was hoping to read in the comments. I would have mentioned this comorbidity if you had not brought it up.
Absolutely. I have ADHD and ASD impulsivity is something I battle with, mainly wasting money on silly things online
Exactly!
This is really helpful to me coming to terms with the ending of my 30 year marriage. I thought my husband was autistic, a therapist friend told me that the way we broke up showed him to have narcissistic traits, and I was not sure of the truth .
After watching this I am convinced he's a narcissist, no doubt. His greatest fear is people thinking him inadequate, and his need to be superb at everything left me crushed, de-skilled and with low self esteem, which boosted his own sense of self worth.
I dragged my self esteem back up slowly over 7 years and found the strength to leave him. The catalyst for the end was him pursuing another woman for 18 months, lovebombing her with self-penned poems, and telling me when I confronted him that I am the polar opposite of the kind of person that suits him.
It was so cold and cruel, and I now know it was narcissism, not autism, and that knowledge will help me heal.
Thankyou Doctor from across the Atlantic x 🇬🇧
Yes you know it is narcissism by how you end up feeling, that's the result of the gaslighting that is not a trait of autism as they don't manipulate for their own gain. Having said that someone can be autistic and a narcissist, depending on how they are parented.
I am glad you finally made clear the line between autism and narcissism. I have autism, so when I saw the parallels between myself and narcissists, I was terrified that I was evil and desired to avoid everyone everywhere because I didn't want to hurt them, I didn't trust myself and believed I was compulsively evil and manipulative because of the parallels. But thank you for clearing this up because now I know I'm that kind of monster. I'd rather be in absolute solitude for the rest of my life than be a narcissist, because if I was a narc, atleast living and dying alone would ensure I'd go my entire life without hurting someone like that. Granted my having diagnosed autism isn't a walk in the park either. Infact its hell, but I'd pick my personal hell than be the knowing and willing source of another person's hell.
Amen
The fact that you avoided people to not hurt them shows that you're not a Narc.
YOU'RE A BEAUTIFUL PERSON!!!
I have to wonder how common that is, because I'm autistic and I used to think I was evil beyond my ability to control it.
@@fnjesusfreak I see why you'd think that given your username. I was raised Christian growing up too, and lets just say the words 'soulless' and 'unholy' and 'robot' got thrown in my direction too much. I actually believed it. That I was damned by God. but several years ago I woke up to the truth. That God isn't real, and neither is Hell. I was really just shamed for being defective, just with a religious spin on it. Personally, I was relieved to discover God wasn't real because if he were , he'd be the embodiment of a malignant narcissist. I've come to realize narcissism and the word 'perfect' are interlinked all the time. Anyone who thinks themselves perfect is a narcissist who embraced the impossible concept of perfection, leaving no room for imagination, refinement, or improvement.
You arent truly evil unless you take pleasure in inflicting suffering on others needlessly. If you empathize with the suffering of others and want to make things better for them, you aren't evil. You were likely called evil for not picking up on body language and were accused of malice for not picking up on the unspoken cues that we with autism cannot read or process. Let go your preconceived idea of autism=evil, all the shame that comes with it, and be free.
Also, as a person living with high-functioning autism (or Aspergers), my interactions with other people have had such a profoundly negative impact on my mental health that I tend to prefer spending time alone or with animals or become quite resistant to interacting with others. People always automatically assume the worst and my explanations are often ignored. Or when people first meet me, they automatically dislike me because their brains are picking up on something that is "different" about me. The olde that I get, it becomes harder and harder to interact with other people that are not autistic (studies have found that we don't have these issues with other autistic individuals). I have this assumption that I'm not proud of, but I honestly think that most non-autistic individuals are extremely cruel to things that are outside of their norm. Instead of trying to be understanding, they ridicule or abuse you. Being now in my 30s, I have zero friends and am very hesitant to even bother trying to get new ones. My experiences have been primarily negative and I think I've accepted that most people are just not going to be kind or understanding towards me. And I tend to attract narcissistic partners for reasons that I do not understand. I think that I am just very naive and tend to give people the benefit of the doubt since I wish that people would do the same for me. Instead, manipulative people prey on this. So I can't even pick healthy partners! I feel doomed sometimes and it used to make me very upset, sad and suicidal (people with autism are 9x as likely to commit suicide). I am no longer suicidal, but I understand why so many autistic individuals give up which just isn't right.
Anyways, I do have alexithymia which is what a lot of autistic people have meaning I often have no idea how I'm feeling. But not knowing does not mean that I don't FEEL these emotions. I just have no idea what they are. For instance, I cannot tell the difference between sadness, happiness, anxiety, etc. They all seem the same to me. So I often have to work very hard to figure out what's going on with me because my emotions go into 3-categories. Anger, indifference or anxiety. So, all of the emotions that a human is capable of, I tend to throw them into those 3-categories even if it's not correct. I know it's hard for NTs to understand this, but that's just how I experience life.
Thanks for sharing this ❤
This really hit a spot. I'm trying to find out what's wrong with me and what you've written is how I currently feel too.
Everything you said describes me. Thank U for sharing this about yourself. I hope things get better for you. 🙏🏻
I am so sorry you feel this way. Please don't believe that all of us out here, want to hurt you. We don't. I came from Narcissism and have picked a Partner who was Narcisstic. It was horrible. But it taught me what it was. I knew something was wrong. But didn't have the education to understand. Maybe Counseling could help you. I doubt there are many studies on this. But I am sure if you researched you would find something. That can help you. I think though your understanding and wanted to get a clearer picture is good and health. Please don't give up on friendships. They, I believe are vital. Even if you know it's a safety factor. I have also given up on friendships. Not 100%. But definetly in the Romance department I have 100%. My disability is health. That holds me back too. But I have vowed to always have a kind word or compliment to another. I hope you take a chance. I am saddened for you. No one should be alone. Peace.
I can strongly relate to those three categories, anger, neutral, and anxious. But it sounds like autism + depression. Happiness comes when you claw back that self worth, do things you enjoy or used to enjoy for the sake of enjoying them, or find something new. Don't tie your worth to outcomes or social connections. Even if it just gets you peace, peace is the soil that happiness needs.
Sometimes if you're brought up by a narcissistic person, you have to anchor yourself in reality with straightforwardness and order as a way to make sense of your constantly shifting reality.
AMEN!!!
I couldn't agree more, thank you for your post.
Wow! You just explained my life!! Thank you so much for putting it so succinctly. I guess it's similar to children of alcoholics that grow up in chaos, often grow up to having issues with being too controlling, in an attempt to try and keep their world's safe from chaos. I have the lucky combo of narc alcoholic parents, but thankfully have done a lot of great psychotherapy to chill me out. :)
Truer words have never been spoken.
I recently got an autism diagnosis. I do NOT have any lack of empathy, I have an overload of it. I cry for everyone suffering, I constantly think about others and can't stop thinking about all the children suffering in this world and for all animals that are suffering and for every human that struggles in life. I can't watch the news anymore because it destroys my life by making me depressed and sad all the time. I also love learning new things and have a higher IQ than average so I am not dumb. I have met two people with narcissist diagnosis and we are NOT the same. Both of them were awful and it makes me sad to think that people believe that autism and narcissists are the same. 😞
I don't even need to watch the video to have something to say. I've been incorrectly labeled narcissistic my entire life and while it's far too late to prevent or undo the damage that caused me, I am very happy for all the people on the spectrum today that there is so much more understanding of people who don't express or experience empathy the same way as others.
My ex was autistic and narcissistic. I excused the abuse for a long time because he was "autistic." It took me years to figure out what Ramani explained so clearly in this video. Autism is not malicious. You do not walk on eggshells around autistic people. And regardless of a person's diagnosis, autistic or otherwise, if you are being treated poorly, you need to leave.
Exactly. I am on the spectrum. I have always been raised to be a people pleaser (I was emotionally abused but my doctor has told me that based on what I have shared.) While I don't think most autistics have narcissistic personality disorder...I would suspect that since anyone can have comorbidities and such it's certainly not impossible...
It's really unnerving to me though because most narcissists are better at reading social cues and can start out being very superficially charming until they really show the nastier sides. Then they become manipulative. Whereas most autistics are socially more awkward and we generally are not considered manipulative. Even meltdowns are not meant to manipulate others...it's usually emotional or sensory overwhelm and it's more akin to a very horrible panic attack (with other features that can make us feel incredibly frustrated and like we want to run and get away and hide.) Most of us would rather no one ever see these sorts of outbursts.
But no matter what...you called it. If a person is being manipulative, abusive or otherwise negatively impacting you...definitely step back and take care of yourself!
Also, I have met others on the spectrum. Not all work to self improve and get better at issues that could be improved. Others are very interested in self improvement. I think there is a huge difference in understanding issues that impact autistics and also thinking, as an autistic, that you can not grow or should not have to in any way because you are neurodivergent. But improving social skills and working on raising out EQs and so on...are excellent goals to have.
What worries me is the fatalistic sense many have when they struggle with any condition...be it depression, autism, a chronic health problem etc. Like "oh, I have always been this way...it will never change and I should not have to change to fit in."
I think there is a problem with this type of thinking because if we learn how to better navigate social situations...our own lives improve but we also will minimize miscommunications and this will help others too. I would feel so guilty if I accidentally hurt someone by saying something that came across as blunt or whatnot. So, you are right...you should not have to walk on eggshells for anyone. Not for anyone.
(((Take care!!)))
Narcissistic behaviors absolutely could develop if for example, the autistic individual suffered early childhood trauma and/or abuse. I’m glad you were able to extricate yourself and are moving forward.
@@hellgirlheleena exactly the case with my ex who grew up in a family that thought therapy and diagnosis were just psychological mumbo jumbo. He was abused. His needs were not recognized. And he got to adulthood by learning to manipulate and coerce.
@@dihydrogenmonoxide7056 so sorry you experienced that. I hope you have a better job and understanding atmosphere now.
well said, thnx
I'm autistic and have a narcissist mother. I spent most of my life totally emotional confused. Instead of trying to help me with my challenges, my mother fed on my misery. Every time I had the chance to learn something and move forwards, she would tear me down. Now that I know she is a narcissist, I just can't understand why she would hurt me so much. She made sure I feel guilty and not good enough all the time.
Probably has a lot to do with her childhood. Maybe her parents treated her worse then she treated you.
I had the same, stopped contact with her at 31 while at 15 I already knew something was weird. In my situation my mother projected her insecurities on to me. So she would expect me to achieve everything be great at all things (she wanted that so she could show me around and feel like she accomplished things), while also keeping me down and never allowing me to feel proud of what I achieved (cause that would make her feel insecure again). Many your situation was similar
I can really relate to this.
Me too! I call it 'Dirty Autism', cos it just ain't talked about in the most of the on-line advocacy. Narcs are competitive children who haven't developed a sense of the worth of others. And note, very few will turn up to a therapist or consult a self-help book!
In a very practical sense, they are challenged by you shining more than them. It takes the spotlight off them, and makes them step on you, when they can. My experience; they often expect thanks for doing it! and that looks like they derive pleasure from it!
Take it slowly and take that autistic capacity for standing back and observing. It takes a lot of feeling to begin to get a clear view; but that goes for anyone who has had their tail stood on repeatedly! :)
im in the same boat and im on this channel because I was afraid I was a narcissist. I am very analytical and good at "game theory" which is a defense mechanism from trying to get through the day with my mother.
but my sense of empathy is very strong and I know that I never hurt anyone intentionally
It wasn't until about a few years ago that a few people asked if I was on the spectrum?
I replied, I don't know, if I am I don't want to be treated any differently.
I am married for 18 years, no friends. When I got married, I focused on being a father, very incompetent at first but learned quickly. Most happy period of my life, helping kids develop and grow, and pride from that.
The social skills i had developed before that have disappeared. Now since the eldest child is getting close to finishing highschool, I am now looking at trying to relearn social skills. Its very very difficult. Lucky I have a loving and supportive partner, who is willing to give me space. She is the engine and I am the brake in our relationship, it works well for us. I understand it can be stressful for her, but am slowly learning to take on the responsibility of the engine, and it is very scary. We are working on this together, and very grateful for my wonderful companion.
My bff is an aspie, and I feel that he is extremely empathic, open to growing, and extremely caring. All he wants is love, and acceptance.. this Dr. Is very on point. Love that she had a pet cat in the video
As someone who has been diagnosed with high functioning autistic spectrum disorder and have come out of a long term relationship with a narcissist. This is incredibly valuable, especially when you explain the difference between the two.
I would be more than willing to discuss my experiences with you.
Many thanks for posting this!
I have been around someone that I suspect is both. They have been diagnosed with a couple of personality disorders but also with autism. I've also worked with low functioning autistic people off and on for years.
There are definitely times autism can be frustrating from both the inside and for people on the outside but people with a personality disorder do a lot of uncaring things deliberately. Autistic people just need some patience and good communication that is literal and straight forward.
Autistic people's quirks can be worked through with relatively little effort. Narcissists take a team and a pile of effort to change their negative behaviors.
I have put this together(and am a member of numerous Facebook groups of Adults with Autism of over 90,000 folks might I add) and also in quite a few Narcissism Abuse Facebook Forums (where I'm also noticing this is coming out ALOT) - (I suspect I'm high functioning (also have a child with ASD/ADHD ) . Also I myself have diagnosed severe ADHD ( (Back-round) -(-Overt Malignant parent) - Now Covert "close" relationship-I've realized there's VERY needed "niche" here to address and try to "manage" -specifically the Narcissistic and Autistic/ADHD dynamic) .. ("Predator" and "Prey" if you will ) with common types of experiences-- Which I'm seeing more and more in these groups on the daily (of which I'm about to start my own You-tube series to go through the experience from the Spectrum/ADHD viewpoint.) ..Bravo for addressing this!!!
Same
I'm on the process of diagnosis, thanks to my narcissistic relationship. She wanted to go to couples therapy to get me diagnosed with something to justify that I was the bad guy in the relationship. I accepted but when the date was near I just couldn't bear it (Because of the let's go diagnose you thing), cancelled it and broke up with her shortly after. Even so, it left me thinking and I decided to start doing some research and I noticed ohh, maybe I am Autistic :P So now I'm on my 8th or 9th appointment and it seems I am.
This is so timely… I’m dealing with both of these!!!!!
The amount of professionalism, dedication, education, and research you put into this video is quite evident. I appreciate your ability to provide such sensitivity and understanding with regard to these topics. Well done! Thank you!
Dr. Ramani is a very special person, with an extraordinary talent.
I agree! Sometimes she shortly mentions that she has her own struggles as well, so I hope she reads the comments on her videos often, and sees how much she is helping the world become a better place, and how appreciated she is!
@@enikoregenyi2104 Dr. R. always reads the comments. She has said so several times.🙂
I really appreciate you breaking this down. I have a son who was Dx with Asburger and many members of my family are narrastic. Thanks to your explanation the difference is more clear.
And I am a LSCSW working with people on the spectrum and also folks who have experienced trauma.
@@enikoregenyi2104 6
When I tell someone the unfiltered truth I see it that if your truth hurts you it is you who made that truth. I've often gotten into trouble by being too honest.
A lot of the time, I give the unfiltered truth because that's what I would want to receive. Yeah, sometimes the truth hurts, but a polite lie is so much worse in the long term.
Me too constantly
My adult son is autistic and is often accused of being narcissistic. I myself even, at times, have wondered if he really is just that, that his seeming self-centredness and apparent lack of empathy are not part of his autism. But then I remind myself that what is often taken as self-centredness is often just his complete involvement in whatever is going through his head at the time. His seeming lack of empathy is a lack of ability to express himself. Usually, just how deeply he resonates with others usually emerges 2-3 hours later, sometimes even later than that, which is usually too late to be helpful. If you know him well, you will know he is, underneath it all, kind and generous, shy, and afraid of rejection...nothing like the arrogant and argumentative person he might on the surface appear to be.
In my opinion there is a severe dysfunction in research on autism in that much of it measures up to a scale of "normal" only. Barron-Cohen's test "Reading the Mind's Eyes" is a good example. The test ceiling was established as what an average population (of only 8 non-autistic people, mostly with higher academical degrees) perceived in the pictures.
Having autism in my family, I was evaluated for it and was deemed not afflicted to a disordered degree. But the first time I took that test, I was thrown off so many times by the, to me, obvious emotions on display not being among the alternatives for response. Some of the eyes were even recognizeable as belonging to famous actors. I vividly remember the impact of the despair and sorrow I saw in Marilyn Monroe's eyes, yet not finding anything among the proffered responses describing this.
Having failed the test, I read up on the methodology and realized that they were not asking for ALL emotions visible, only for what the imaged was supposed to portray. I took the test again, aiming for "what would the average person see first" and ignored incompetent acting, and it was a piece of cake to score 100 %!
The autistic people I have known until now do not display any lack of empathy at all! What they struggle with is distinguishing between what they are supposed to see and all the signals people transmit unintentionally. Most people convey several conflicting emotions quite often, and it takes an unbelievable amount of conditioning to prioritize what is important to focus on. Autistic people try very hard to crack the code, but generally have very strict ethical standards, so their empathy gets worn out by all the mixed signals before they are able to play along.
Narcissistic people, on the other hand, excel at reading, projecting and actively using fake emotions.
that was brilliant and describes the autism I know so well
Your paragraph about how autistic people often pick up a lot of body language and social cues but don’t know what signals they’re “supposed” to focus on 🤯 I’ve never seen that articulated so clearly but it makes so much sense.
Yes, it's very complex for us. Like when people ask, "how are you?" In the US. Most of us autistics will answer truthfully. When the person really doesn't want to know how we're doing. I now understand this, but I still think WHY?! It's my job to differentiate between the honesty of the questions you ask me? What's the point of that? Haha. Well, just an example.
Yes, a thousand times yes! I have perceived the complex layered emotional and mental states of people since I was a small child. But I had such a hard time figuring out which ones I was supposed to ignore. It didn't even occur to me I was expected to ignore many of them until I was age 10.
It was so confusing to me as a kid. I thought 99% of people walked around lying to each other constantly. I seldom had any feeling of safety around people because they lied so much, and having a narcissistic mom didn't help! Animals and plants, with their straightforward communication and responses were my emotional refuge.
It took me decades to figure out how to skillfully respond to superficial signals, and what to politely ignore.
Using those "hidden in plain sight" clues to steer an interaction or gain an advantage didn't even occur to me until middle age.
It's as if I (and others on the spectrum) are neurologically wired to be free of subterfuge. I'd rather spend my mental and emotional energy on more interesting pursuits than ones which require constant applied dishonesty and/or social hierarchy posturing.
The original Star Trek was in reruns by the time I was in kindergarten. I remember crushing on Mr. Spock pretty hard and wishing I could move to the planet Vulcan and have Vulcan parents.
@@galamander_1327 same! I definitely wanted to be Spock as he was appreciated for his skills rather than being compared to everyone else 💗🖖💗
I was diagnosed autistic in the 60’s with what later became known as aspergers. The most obvious difference to me between myself and narcissists is the fact that lifelong, I need
-- no one-- around me, for any kind of a “relationship”--- I am my own “supply”, for everything. Because I’ve lived alone just simply taking care of myself my entire life, and have everything I need and much of what I want, people who aren’t as well off have perceived me as being selfish. Fact is, nothing I do or have is anyone else’s business and that is a social fact many somehow never learned. The narcissist on the other hand goes thru and disposed of many, people, using them up til they’re done with them for whatever reason. They need constant “supply” because they can’t provide for themselves and have no identity of their own.
I like that.
ASD- No social supply required
Narcissist- social supply definitely required
Example:
I, too, am on the spectrum. I'm extremely driven, and I want things I work on to be done the best that they can be (similar to a grandiose narcissist). IMO, and others, this way is often the way that I come up with (Also similar to a grandiose narcissist). I often take over projects at work (similar to a grandiose narcissist attempting to get noticed) I've been called a Narcissist for this fact. The key difference is that I have no want or desire to gain social recognition of any kind, and often allow someone else to take credit, so that I do not have to deal with people. I don't care who recognizes how good the job was done, I only care that the job was done, and done right. It's simply easier to let someone else be praised for it.
A narcissist would want all the credit, even if it is undeserved (As I understand it).
In other words, a narcissist gravitates toward the center of attention, while an Autistic person shies away from it (because its annoying- personal opinion).
EDIT: The only time I want recognition, is when it effects my work. When people recognize that I do good work, they are more likely to get out of my way so that I can continue to do good work.
@@JR-zd7ns I do get it, completely. Pretty much same here.
What an interesting perspective! I'm autistic, raised by and divorced from narcissists. I am extremely codependent (perfect narcissist bait). "Be my own supply." Now that's unusual but helpful advice! Along the lines of "healthy narcissism" I'll be.
Its usually people with multiple personalities or dissociative identity disorder that lack an identity like Sally Field. Narcissists know that theyre evil, i grew up with a family of them. They all know who they are, im the one who doesn't have an identity and its certainly not because i am evil as a result of their narcissistic corruption. I have Aspergers too, so i am just curious if your IQ is above 140, because otherwise its not ethical to claim to have Aspergers. Its not the same thing as autism, as most people with autism have a lower than average IQ. I also can understand why you may think people who dissociate are somehow evil but its really quite the opposite. 🧩
@@Sensei_Sean Ugh.
I know my husband is autistic and I have always understood that. As he has got older he is presenting narcissistic traits in wanting to control me, devalue me and gaslight me. I believe that since he has retired he has found it very difficult to adjust to the change in life. This has prompted him to cling onto me. It has nearly destroyed me as I have loved all confidence and faith in myself. Trying to understand these conditions has helped me to isolate the individual traits and rationalise the impact on me. Thank you for your videos as they have enabled me to get through this difficult time
Dr. Ramani, I just finalized my divorce from my autistic ex-husband.. you just explained so much about the lack of empathy I experienced and many of our issues. It was such a 'why'? And I took things so personally, not understanding the nature of how he processes things. Thank you so much. This is such a healing gift.
Yeah, ITS very often a Translation issues, Not a Lack of Care or Feeling for you, but Not having any clue what IS going on. Like speaking another language. ITS Like someone asks for help, and you can Not react accordingly, cause you do Not understand them, but absolutely would, If you managed to find a translator!
ITS Most often Not actually the Case, that autists are Low empathy, they plain do Not know how to Express it in a way the Other gets any comfort from.
I am of the hyper empathetic kind but that does Not mean I know the rooms mood Like Magic, I am compleatly relient on being given enough information for IT to click. IT means I do what I can to avoids distressing Others or Help and feel terrible of there IS nothing I can do, but Not, that I am the best at recognisimg distress and ITS causes naturally. I hate breaking someones Heart more, then being the one with the broken Heart, but I might Not Always notice, when I do hurt someone. Never the less I come across AS uncaring to Others cause I can not grief for example and therefore struggles immensly with griefing people AS I have No way of understanding what they go through.
Things that upsets me and make Sense to me different often greatly from what people assume to BE Universal and I totaly get why that can BE very hard to Deal with.
I am glad you find comfort in understanding IT better now and knowing, that IT was Not callousness in His side, or a faliure of yours
I don’t live with autism. I am autistic. Thanks to therapy, my alexithymia has improved since it was due to abuse, some of that abuse came from neurotypical people who did not validate my emotions and told me what I was feeling wasn’t real or was wrong. Neurotypical people do this all the time and expect autistic people to make up the difference in how we experience emotions.
That needed to be said. Well done. Thanks for doing an important service here which can be collectively beneficial.
People really do gaslight and abuse.
> abuse came from neurotypical people who did not validate my emotions and told me what I was feeling wasn’t real or was wrong
I think this may be behind a lot of Alexuthymia. When you are punished for expressing your feelings you tend to hide them from others and from yourself.
WHAT IS THAT ABOUT ANYWAYS?! I see NTs share a feeling and they get a rally behind them. I share one maybe every few months, and everyone wants to convince me I’m wrong. Wwhhhyyyy???
Bingo! This right here. If there were more autistic people than neurotypical, we could EASILY have a video by an autistic psychologist titled, "difference between narcissism and neurotypical pple."
NTs really don't understand the harm they cause bc of their ableism, even by the most well meaning allistic pple. Their behavior comes off narcissistic to us, yet we're the ones who need to learn and adjust to them All. The. Time.
I run a blog on Autism; I was diagnosed at 19, and I did a whole miniseries explaining the whole "lack of empathy" thing. First of all, it's not a disorder, and everyone focuses specifically on the social aspect over everything else, despite all our other capabilities. We're also commonly gaslit to hell, and get withheld from a lot of nurture. A lot of people who complain about our "lack of empathy" don't seem to take ours into account either. It's very one-sided, because we're viewed as the weirdo "not really deserving" of it.
100% truth
@@knarme5160 I have a major blog entry--a few actually--in the works about this, but for various reasons....I can't drop them *just* yet....
THANK YOU 💛
The sooner autism is taken out of the Big Book of Mental Disorders, the better 💛xx
@@anne-louisegoldie I shared this video on Reddit, to lay out for the community *why* they've been led to believe they're disabled, and I *literally* got the response "it doesn't mean we're not disabled though". Thank a heavy victim mentality, and over a century of severe psychological warfare/gaslighting for that....
@@KingRandor82 yes, that feeling that we aren't fit for purpose. Maybe Dr Ramani could look into the ways neurodivergent people are gaslighted and come to believe that they're 'less, not different' ? I often feel like I'm just Wrong. Wrong wiring, wrong thinking, wrong responses, wrong planet. Where does that belief come from, when there are so MANY of us, far more than 1 in 60 (or whatever the current stats say) ? 😊xx
3:44 this explains why narcissists always take issue with me just being polite. Like not wanting anything or expecting anything.
Like a compliment just being a compliment.
I think the best test is to accuse them of narcissism first to see how they react. The ASD person will feel baffled and apologetic, while the NPD person will go into a fit of rage.
I'm sure NPD and ASD can coexist sometimes (people like Sheldon Cooper comes to mind), but depending on your patience and what you want out of the relationship, only those who are willing to change will work with you.
So, the best test is to traumatize the ASD person with a false claim/accusation, pushing them into self doubt and appology?
Please do one on what makes autistic people easy targets for narcissists and other dark personalities and makes it harder to leave them (codependency, hating change, so on). So many parents need to be aware of teaching their children about these risks and not teaching them submission to others (therapists push compliance a lot in ABA for instance and I really worry about what this teaches kids and how this makes them prey)
Hear hear!
Great idea, think this has happened to me, over and over.
Aba is so toxic
As an autistic person who was bullied and othered from people socially this would be extremely interesting
What is ABA?
Look at the parallels between C-PTSD and Autism. Someone very close to me has been diagnosed with C-PTSD and showed some symptoms of autism spectrum. They are finally getting the exact help they need with a correct diagnosis.
Yeah, psychology is a complicated subject that has an infinite amount of questions unanswered. It's really easy to misdiagnose and that can lead to harming people instead of helping them. That's why it's particularly important for psychologists to be humble and self aware.
I was diagnosed with autism at a very young age, but recently been diagnosed with C-PTSD. It’s very common for women and girls to be misdiagnosed with autism or other disorders because autism presents itself differently in women and girls. But my father was a narcissist and he was an alcoholic and he abused all of his children, which probably played a way bigger roll in my behaviors as a child and subsequently as an adult.
The both often come together. I have c-ptsd and recently found I have ADD and am now looking into autism. My narcissistic ex partners may have been on the spectrum as well. I have become more the overly empathising too understanding type because of my past.
C ptsd can hinder neural pathway development. Autism is also neural pathway disorder, which ranges from slightly affective to more seriously affective
Very dangerous, cause yes that's what I just thought, it may look similar, but comes from a lot of suffering in the case of cptsd. The suffering is specially high when it was due to a lot of isolation,, bullying and manipulations in the life of that person.
So glad u put this here, cause I was just thinking the same.
I was diagnosed by people as borderline even tho I never had a history of chaotic relationships. I did however, have lowered ability to tell when someone was disingenuous so I’d find myself in the track of abusers too often, so perhaps it seemed that way to some I don’t know. I recently discovered I’m autistic (self discovery along with piecing together memories of my younger childhood, couldn’t communicate, read or write until a couple years behind my peers, emotional problems, etc) and discovered the overlap. And I was like, finally I understand myself. And I’m in my mid 40s. Your video also made me understand why I’ve been misunderstood in yet another way. Very insightful and thank you for all your videos.
Thank you for this video. I've seen even people who claim to be psych doctors compare people with autism to narcissists. It's infuriating
There is one very important thing I find missing in this video: Even if there is a cognitive difficulty in recognizing feelings, this is not the same as lacking empathy. The people I know with highly functional autism are also the most emphatic people I know. They are kind in a way few other people seem capable of. There is no need to “show of” or make others feel small nor to climb in society, but there is a deep, deep wanting to do good for all humanity and all living.
In this video one might get the understanding that narcissists and people with autism share the same lack of empathy, just for different reasons. But that is not the case, there is no lack of empathy in people with autism. They care deeply about other peoples feelings and well being, even if there is a lack of getting that across for some people.
One example of this is the story of Temple Grandin. She cares so deeply about the well being of animals that she has used her life to understand what makes them feel good and what they need to not be distressed nor frightened. If that is not empathy what is?
totally agree with you!
Such empathy she had, as they were headed for the abbatoir. She facilitated the slaughtering of cattle.
I agree! My experience as a person with ASD and my friends/family with ASD is that IF they understand where the other person is coming from we (people with ASD) are way more empathetic than neurotypical people. The tricky part is that we might not understand why someone is feeling a certain way or what the other person is feeling. My daughter is incredibly empathetic to the point where I have to constantly remind her that her "role" is to love and support others not take on their emotional pain. My brother on the other hand doesn't understand people or their emotions very well, even when it's explained to him repeatedly and has no regard for other's feelings unless he understands them. He can come across as very self centered and even narcissist at times.
This is gonna be difficult to convey because people use these terms interchangably: sympathy and empathy. If you try to find the definitions, there will still be many differing and conflicting ones.
But essentially, there's two type of phenomenon that people are referring to:
1. The ability to read and understand other's feelings and respond appropriately.
2. The ability to share other people's feelings and care deeply about it, especially on suffering.
Thank you so much for saying this!
My son has autism and when he's under a lot of stress he does come off as a narcissist but he isn't! He's capable of compassion, guilt, so on, he just sometimes gets overwhelmed and doesn't have the capacity to care sometimes. I don't think I'm explaining that right but the difference for me is that he is capable if you calm him down to see he was being an a** - a narcissist will not admit guilt orfault. That's the difference. Some (not all) with autism are capable of seeing they acted "wrong" once they're in the right headspace. They see the world in black and white so aversion to unfairness can come off as entitlement and lack of empathy but it's not. My son is more capable to have empathy for animals than people, whereas the narcissist in my life dislikes any animal that isn't perfect in her eyes. My son loves my little hobgoblin cat with skin issues wheras the narcissist is not capable of empathy and compassion for a sickly animal who has wronged them. Now, just because someone with autism realizes they acted incorrectly or disproportionately after the fact, doesn't mean they will be able to have the capacity to amend it. It may take a lot of working with them to help, but again, I've never seen a narcissist change or be open to constructive criticism
I'm the same way. Its either i shut down and don't come out into the world or I self mutilate and if pushed the wrong way I will yell. Your son is not alone and he isn't a narc, he only different and deserves the recognition of others xo peace and love to you and your son. Hes lucky to have u as a mom
It's called an unfairness meltdown. I get those. People with autism are very focused on justice
@@Evealaquisina indeed we are #purity
Hi, Jenny! Like your son, I too have Autism. Although no longer listed as a diagnosis, in the DSM-V, I have Asperger's Syndrome, which is both a blessing and a curse.
Some people find me to be a know it all, or cold and arrogant, or a snob, but I assure you, I am none of those things. I also have an overabundance of empathy, especially for animals. I can't even bring myself to kill the flies, which drive my husband mad, that sometimes find themselves trapped in our home. The thought of hurting an innocent creature, whom is not intentionally trying to cause distress, but is only trying to, quite literally, survive, causes me to experience physical pain, in my chest and stomach. My empathy for animals can be so overwhelming, at times, especially when I think about lab animal experimentation (which is completely unnecessary and what gives humans the right to inflict harm on another creature, to fulfill their curiosity?!) or that humans are overpopulating the planet and forcing so many species out of their home territories and food sources and then killing, harming or harassing the poor creatures when they have no other choice, except to explore our rural properties, homes, businesses, etc... so that they and their young aren't forced to suffer the horrible fate of starvation or lack of shelter.
I've never gone without sustinance, for more than a day, and I'm able to easily put myself in that animal's place and actually feel the cramping pain, headaches, fear, exhaustion, frustration, etc... Sometimes the cruelty of men, makes me wonder how I can possibly survive another 46 years, on this planet, knowing that those that can't possibly comprehend the cruelties and injustices hey face are the ones that suffer the most and will continue to suffer, until the whole of the human race is wiped from this planet.
I've found that humans are the least humane of all creatures and I find that knowledge very sad.
I apologize for climbing up on my soapbox. I'll drag myself off. Animals are one of my passions.
I am also easily able to empathize with people. I quite literally feel others' emotions and I can also taste them. If I'm coming over as indifferent to someone's pain, it's not because I am. I have no problem ide tifying exactly what I'm feeling and I'm easily able to interpret body language, facial expressions and tone of voice, to understand what someone else is feeling. I'm extremely sensitive to others' emotions and they can completely overwhelm me to the point that, if I don't shut down or pull back, I experience physical pain and extreme, debilitating exhaustion, sometimes for days. Then to top that happy happenstance, I'm forced to feel those emotions over and over again, every single time the meeting with that person pops in my head. This can last YEARS! No kidding! So I have to shut down in self defense, even when I want to help and be there for that person.
I sometimes do say things that hurt people, but I never do it out of meanness or with the intent to cause harm I just don't thinj we should lie, ever, (Except maybe in a life or death situation). Lies are not respectful to others nor are they logical.
For example: I think that praising my best friend's denim clad rear, after she has asked my opinion about how her "butt looks in these jeans", would do her a disservice, if she appears to have grown a second buttocks, where a seam cuts, tightly into the flesh of her posterior.
I don't understand how people can be so forceful about wanting to always be told the truth and becoming so angry when they "catch" someone in a lie and then tell me that I shouldn't be so honest and blunt. SMDH
I don't think that most of us with ASD have any real problem, with empathy or identifying emotions, per say. We have problems with double meanings, being told one thing, when someone actually means the opposite, lies, beating around the bush, and being taught to never lie and that it's a sin, and wrong and that we can be severely punished for lying and then saying something's like, "It was just a harmless little or white lie ".
I find people to be confusing, not their emotions or an inability to identify their pain. Does your son feel something similar?
You got it right. When an autistic person is in sensory overload, it can show on the outside or not but in that moment, it's hard to care about what other people are saying or doing. It's like being on fire and someone going "hey, youre not listening to my small talk about shit going on at work" while youre just sitting there, dying inside.
I have Asperger’s, I am high functioning. I have compassion for others , I am not always aware of my own feelings or the feelings of others. When i am presented with a question by someone I look at it and provide them with the answers as I see it, without any emotional involvement which means I can appear cruel, something I am aware of and try to avoid. Also we are different and the community can be aggressive and bullying to those they see as different and we have learned to be careful, introverted in their company.
I can really relate to what you said about conscientiousness. I think sometimes in the past I've been misread. It took many years even to be aware of when others didn't like me or were being mean to me and now I am painfully afraid that people will take something the wrong way. I had an assessment when I was 5 and it described autism but did not name it, as in those days girls were not diagnosed.
I went through many years later of bad mental health treatment as a young adult and labels of all kinds of crazy things. It was a nightmare because I was often misunderstood and looked at as having committed some terrible wrong of which I could not figure out what, no matter how I tried to work things out with people they thought I was a terrible person of one sort or another and it just made things worse, and then I started really going through a guilt spiral that took years to get myself out of. There are alot of us older people out there now who are autistic and have had to rule out almost everything else in the book and that in and of itself can be very traumatic.
I think sometimes too as an autistic person you can develop defense mechanisms to being treated badly because of false impressions people form about you. That can be misinterpreted too. Many of us have been taken advantage of by narcissists. I think my son is going through this now in his relationships with women. He might also be on the spectrum and I think narcissist partners sense that they can take advantage of him because he is very mild mannered, and they project their own traits onto him. He's in a very serious situation right now because of a woman who may even be a psychopath.
I myself am at the point that I'm afraid of any relationships, even friendships because I feel like I have to walk on eggshells, and I never know if they are gaslighting me when they get offended about something or whether it was something I said or didn't say that they wanted me to. It feels like a minefield.
I have autism and I always feel crushed when I hear how people I admire talk about us. Thank you so much for RESEARCHING, I swear that’s all we want, is to be understood.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like Dr Ramani researched Autism as discussed BY AUTISTIC PEOPLE. She's talking about us and defining us by our "deficits" in how we relate to the allistic/neurotypical people around us; not from the Neurodiversity Model. I'm very disappointed in this video, and wish she would read things written BY US. NOTHING ABOUT US, WITHOUT US.
@@jennabrown5308 I totally understand where you're coming from because I dated someone with Asperger's and I still value him very much. I feel that she's just trying to straighten out NT people so they don't put people with autism into the NPD box. An NPD diagnosed with the personality disorder are evil and that is quite different from autism.
@@jennabrown5308 I agree with you and hope she does more research. I love watching her videos as they have greatly helped me in dealing with an abusive and covert NPD mother. However this video left a lump in my throat and my heart sank.
yes. I was moderately less crushed, for once.
I respect Dr. Ramani. I watch so many of her videos. This one, I couldn't even get halfway through.
For someone who specializes in something completely different, what she found through research was VERY refreshing.
That's shit hurts
As someone with ASD ... I feel as if I have zero defense against narcissists and have had lifelong problem with bullying and gaslighting. I'm not alone for ASD ppl. Can you do a video about how ASDs can be so easily manipulated by narcissists? Especially covert narcissists?
Huh. Strange, it’s the opposite for me. I was always good with narcs even without knowing they were. Now I know and I just let it be completely. I thought it was being ASD that helped me.
It’s the masking. Both do for different reasons. Study into it and it will help. I was married to a sociopath for a year and when covid protocols lifted I saw his body language. I knew it wasn’t right. I dug and found out everything. Now after extreme research, I see them all.
@@sunsme3243This is really fascinating! Thank you for sharing, as I’m now reflecting on my own experiences with NPD’s and have realized that, while I seem to be a target I’m also never really blindsided because of rapid pattern detection and hyperthymetic recall. So, when they ultimately pull their inevitable hijinks it’s pretty easy to be “flat” and “whatever” about it. (PS: I used to be far more hurt/disrupted because of an inability to understand WHY someone would be perfidious in the way NPD’s are, but since becoming educated on the behavior pattern it’s different.) Plus, I suppose knowing oneself and being grounded in that knowing helps. 😁 Thanks again for your thought provoking comment-definitely helped excavate a fascinating layer in my own experiences.
I have had a 3 year experience/ relationship with a narcissist's and it is tough, and have encountered many i thought were friends in my 27 years on this earth, it gets easier to discern and decipher who is a narcissist's and who isn't but i can say it doesn't make the pain any less painful when encountering them. you grow to care about them and when you know it's gone to far you have to cut them off emotionally and completely from your life. But, the knowledge of pointing them out get's easier and more abundant. i have learned to keep my circle small. and i have learned before starting to care about some one deeply in any way, i sit back and observe them and afterwards if something is off i just don't talk to them again. and go to the extremes when doing so to ensure to the best of my ability that if i do encounter them again, it'll be a rare instance in public
Me too. People bully me and I just let it happen because idk what's happening
As a "high-functioning" autistic person (asperger's) who was diagnosed at the age of 21: thank you so much! I hope this video will educate a lot of people who are confused and might otherwise antagonize people who are autistic in a domain of life where we are exactly often at our most vulnerable, namely the social domain.
This is me! Been struggling a lot with my recent diagnosis, hope things look up for you!
@@harirao7929 and I hope for you that you'll have a good and manageable road finding your bearings with your recent diagnosis 😉👍🏼
Now, I think that it may even be more difficult to navigate the gap between a person with ASD+ADHD and a person with NPD. I personally have been deceived by a few people with NPD because I perceived them as "a person like me that understands me," but I promise you we are not the same. Sadly, the realization is never fast enough.
That's what went through my mind when she was describing a lot of the differences.
I had a bad experience with that and was scammed by two people working together who harmed the animals I trusted with them. Someone warned me the one person was strange and different. I dismissed that warning because people think my kindess and honesty are strange and different. If the person had told me this person is abusive and a pet flipper, I would have understood the warning and not trusted her with innocent lives. That devastated me.
I agree, do you watch Yo Samdy Sam on here? she has both and talks about how they can hide each other. Specifically I was thinking about the novelty seeking element. The ADHD need to seek new experiences can fight with the Autistic fear of change.
I will have to check it out
I've HFA and ADHD, recent events in my life have got me in a twist. I check all the boxes of NPD. It's got my stomach churning.
I am on the autistic spectrum and I am high functioning, some days are better than others. When arguing with a ex one of his main reasons he got turned off was because I was "nonchalant & too blunt" even though I would talk for hours explaining and trying to understand. Crying after almost every conversation . . . . He just didn't see me
I’m so sorry that happened to you.
@@MzShonuff123 thank you I appreciate that, I have come to understand that I'm not meant to be understood and accepted by everyone. I love living in my individuality. Peace and blessings to you family
🤗
@@queencleopatrabeverly7914 What struck me in your comment was "he just didn't see me". That must have hurt.
@@deborahswart1718 it did. But its not new to me what so ever. The reason I am high functioning is because of no support. So along the way I learned to support myself and the only way to get through most of the challenges was to push my self through them #strong
A few things I would like to add:
1. autistics aren't all necessarily introverted. A person with ASD and ADHD is often highly extroverted. In fact their extroversion masks some if not most aspects of their ASD.
2. Narcissists can in fact have impairments in their mirror neurons. The present theory suggests that not only do autistics have a dysfunctional mirror neuron system, but so do those with psychotic disorders and also personality disorders.
3. There is something called the double empathy problem. Autistics often have no issues empathizing with one another. The issue arises when an NT and ASD interact. The NT is actively looking for subtle social cues, which the autistic either does not have or is unconsciously sending the 'wrong' signal. Also the autistic is likely not reading into the cues the NT is giving off, making this a rather painful experience for both.
Ha! Should I as a autistic woman just have empathy for other autistic people but forget it if the person doesn't have autism? Lol. What's so special about autistic people that I should have more empathy for those people? Don't bother responding to that because I'm past caring. I treat people as people indifferent of them being autistic or not. In fact in my opinion a lot of autistic people are so ignorant and arrogant thinking their autism makes them somehow superior people. I don't respect autistic people who think like that and respect is very important to me.
The active but odd autistic person is very outgoing and extravert. They talk without real communication, though it seems social. The are compulsive in making contact with new person's. Inside and outside two faces. In my opinion the cause is different from narcism but the result is bad too.
@@catharinavervoort1986 Who are you to dismiss another person's experience with a autistic person?
@@charlottelouise209 It was not my intention to dismiss an another experience at all. Her reaction just brought these thoughts to me, bassed on 30 years experience with autism in all different sorts. Kind of typical my experience does not fit into your mindset and so you just ignore it.
Some autists are able to relate to my point of view, others don't.
This depends on empathy, introspection and perception and T.O.M.
Autists are all different with unique personalities and(-disorder). Just like other humans, they are surely no saints. Specially those who are NOT abble to recognize their own autism.
Autism is a pervasive development disorder in combination with other genetics and later devolopment.
So, thank you for your defensive not kind reaction too!
@@catharinavervoort1986 So you work with autistic people? You can take what I said as defensive but I was irritated by that fact you know nothing about their friend and for you to say they talk nonsense or whatever it was you said. I say that because your first comments have disappeared from this thread for some maddening reason. I appreciate you saying autistic people aren't saints! I'm autistic and sick and tired of some autistic people making out they're some kind of saints when I'm autistic and not for a second perfect. No sob story from me but my parents are narcissists and my mother scapegoated me. It took me years to work out what they were and what happened to me. I was scapegoated for no fault of my own and I desperately sincerely own my flaws, they are mine and no one will take them away from me. Don't they say "To err is human"? I'm human and my flaws aren't the whole of me. I'm sorry if I upset you and I admit I can go off the deep end. People all people should be treated like human beings because that's what everyone is.
I’m an empath in long relationships with narcissist having high intellectual autistic child.
Your incredible lectures actually help me so much to put things together.
At the end of the day I feel it’s all connected.
I am the decades long wife of an Autistic man who come from a severely Narcissistic Father and older Sister. When I began to understand with more second sight, all of this info and more fell into place for me. (Only took me 30 years, lol). What a ride it has been. Life is for learning and growing and finding ways to explore the facets (and limitations) of love beyond self-love. We’ve all been taught to judge too much and to not value ourselves in the ways we love ourselves. Perfection is a pipe dream. Boundaries are a Godsend.
Thank you Dr Ramani. 11-12 years ago during marriage counselling my wife went on her own and the counsellor suggested that I might have NPD. She came home and told me and I was horrified that someone might perceive me that way - I could not have less interest in controlling and manipulating people. The next week we went along and the counsellor had had a think about it and asked if we had ever heard of autism - our first child had been diagnosed in the intervening week. Needless to say, I was too (subsequently). My self-focus, obliviousness and straightforwardness could be real boundary-challengers and I've worked hard to be more aware. Now, at the age of 50 I've just finished a social work degree and get to support others through their challenges including helping others to recognise and get out of narcissistic relationships. I feel so blessed.
I'm autistic and a lifelong victim of narcissistic relationships including with my father, boyfriends, and my ex-sister's husband. Do you think you could help me? What state are you licensed to practice in? There are NO C-PTSD-aware trauma therapists in the area where I live in NYS who accept Medicare (not even Medicare Advantage, so I have no idea what the 'advantage' of Medicare 'Advantage' even IS), and I can't afford coaching. I'm 100% physically and emotionally disabled, and DBT has only ADDED to the trauma. Or if you know someone licensed to practice in NYS who has understanding of autism and the effects of lifelong narcissistic abuse, I DESPERATELY need help, especially with my primary abuser living right next door to me.
@@mooncove I am sorry for the difficulties and suffering you have endured and continue to be confronted with. I am autistic too, and was finally accurately diagnosed, also, with CPTSD and OSDD. I might be able to help you to help yourself, if you want to explore what I can offer in my free time. Only "expense" is any time, energy and interest you may have available and choose to apply. As for my qualifications to offer support, I have a minor degree in behavioral sciences and have continued to study extensively in related fields in the decades since taking other minor degrees, a B.A., a professional teaching credential and another credential in a different wellness modality. But cannot yet pursue becoming a full time student again to earn formal credentials to work as a therapist (although my therapist/doctor has recently suggested it as something he thinks I am am well suited for and may want to seriously consider). But I am not a therapist. Not a doctor.
I have made extensive progress however and it is possible that some of the things which I have learned and over time put successfully into practice (in my own life), could be useful to you.
I sought the right help for decades.
I have been fortunate to find helpful professional support where I moved when I was 40 (and I am now in my 50s), but a lot of my progress has come from books and the internet too.
Do you like to read? If you do, and if it comes easily enough to you [I know dyslexic autistics and autistics like me who find reading easier than almost everything else], if reading is appealing and if you can access a library which might have some of the books I'd recommend, or if you have any ability to purchase any, I can suggest a few excellent resources. Also websites.
One of the most helpful resources of all to me has been the rich treasure trove that is: Out of the FOG.
The menu bar across the top has drop down menus with more to choose from, and all the yellowish-orange words on any page are links to more helpful information within the website. There is also a "sister site" for CPTSD called "Out of the Storm" and is linked from the below website.
outofthefog.website/overview
outofthefog.website/traits
outofthefog.website/top-10-myths
outofthefog.website/toolbox-intro
Apparently you have found value in Dr. Ramani's videos?
I found them extremely helpful. Watched many. Dozens upon dozens upon dozens. Also some videos from a few others who are well qualified and sensible, relatively healthy. [Some people on TH-cam offer poor advice which can be very harmful. Some are best avoided.] Dr. Ramani is the best of all I have seen.
You can also practice some other recovery techniques from top specialists in trauma recovery by accessing for free online. Dr. Richard Schwartz offers videos to help using his IFS therapy, and my doctor highly recommends him.
Let me know if you get this, and want to accept my offer of support. I like to help when and if I can, when another wishes to do what they can.
@@sparkythancztwise I’ll take it !! I need some clarity and support on this matter as well .
I got the email notification today of your comet after reading my response to what was said by “mooncove”.
I’d be open to exploring what help and support may be of service. I need to know how many of Dr Ramani’s videos you have watched. They are extremely helpful. I recommend looking through her YT channel page for titles that jump out to you. It’s easier on a computer than phone for me (if you have access, try it). I also need to know if you are going to check out some of the other online resources I shared. And third, I need to know if you want some authors & book titles. I couldn’t keep buying books and borrowed lots of good ones from library.
Lmk what sort of support you’d like while you aim for increasing clarity?
As an autistic person, myself, I am so glad that you made this video! It is truly a very complex topic/issue. I am not a fan of functioning labels, and I do believe in saying "autistic person" rather than "person with autism". Within the realm of autism, there are also different profiles. My son and I both are what's known as PDA(pathological demand avoidance) profile. Demands, even self imposed, are difficult. Sometimes extremely so. We are highly sensitive, sensory wise and emotionally. I have experienced many narcissistic people, and I simply do not understand how someone could be so cruel and evil. I mean, I understand it intellectually but it shocks me every time I experience it. Which, thankfully, is far less and less now. I have personally experienced the overlaps and there are most definitely clear distinctions. Again, thank you for this video, and all of the work you do!
Kill it Amber 🙌😩👩❤️👨💥⚡✨🤽🌊🌬️⛰️
Amber, I would greatly appreciate if you could share some resources regarding PDA, please?
I am in the US and believe at least two of our autistic family members have issues with PDA but there is little to no diagnostic or expert information in the areas we have resided. Thanks in advance -- Sharon/autiemuse
I have BPD and autism and I believe this is the reason I was able to overcome BPD because I only had 8 traits to overcome and so focused on each one until I no longer suffered with them.
I was diagnosed at 4 years old. I have in the past been called a Narcissist and with help from my shrink it brought relief to me to learn that the traits I've demonstrated in the past is more in line with my ASD then NPD. Although we're similar there is still a difference and I'm happy to say I am not a Narcissist.
I was diagnosed with autism as an adult. From my personal standpoint, I have a lot of empathy. I just sometimes struggle to communicate what I feel.
I seem to attract narcissitic, and abusive, people into my life. I could never understand where I was going wrong. Receiving a diagnosis has helped me understand and put tools in place to protect myself. I constantly research narcissism, (amongst other things). I now think I have it somewhat sussed, enough to know what to look out for. I have a very small inner circle of friends and a supportive family, so I am happy with this
80% of us will suffer NPD abuse :( We have traits they are drawn to :(
So true!
I have ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) as well...
I'm very emotional...
I can also relate to most of what you said as well...
Currently (& for awhile) I've had a really small amount of ppl in my life.
I actually spend most of my time at home alone.
@@elizabethCorkins83 I spend a lot of time just me and my dog. We go out and about a fair bit because I have to meet her needs. She helps me unstick myself from the house.
Also helps me explore new places because I like her to have variety.
She's the best wee dog in the world.
I suspect that narcissists have radar for people who are straightforward because we can tend to see others as straightforward as we are and have difficulty recognizing ulterior motives and manipulation, which narcissists sense that they can exploit to their advantage. I try to keep people in my life like my wife who is NT and very good at picking up on deceptive behavior. My wife was actually attracted by my straightforwardness and trustworthiness having grown up in a toxic family where deception and manipulation were the norm.
thank you so much for this video. i have autism and i’ve recently had a bit of a crisis of “oh no what if i’m not autistic and i’m actually a narcissist and i don’t know it” which becomes “no if i was a narcissist it probably wouldn’t even cross my mind that i am one” which becomes “oh no i’m in denial”
this video has really cleared a lot up for me. definitely just autistic lol. thank you!!!
Samesis 😂 but I realized it has been decades of gaslighting 😢
Lol you nailed how I’ve been thinking lately
I am a partner with Cassandra Syndrome. This was so validating because I’ve understood the difference without having the words to describe it. We will watch this together and I know it will help us have a better understanding of each other. Thank you!!
I once dated an autistic man who had been misdiagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder back in the early 2010s, and goodness, was that ever a DISASTER for him. He once told me "I was already misunderstood as an autistic person who didn't know I was autistic, but when the doctors thought I was a narcissist, they just decided I was a permanent liar at all times." Terrifying misdiagnosis...
And it even kinda made me feel bad for narcissists too. They need to change, and I know this is rare, but if one did decide to go for some kind of treatment, are many psychologists even fully willing to help them? Or could that psychologist's personal disgust/other feelings get in the way too much?
I have been formally, as an adult, diagnosed with ASD. I think you hit this pretty well. It's actually troubling to me how close together narcissism and autism are when viewed from the outside. It's troubling because I see the reflection in myself, and yet - I see none of the motivational aspects of narcissism. I just keep stumbling from social failure to social failure like a drunk alien in a world they don't understand. It doesn't help to see how much the term "narcissist" is weaponized in casual use. Practically it seems to mean little more than "I don't like someone because they didn't prioritize me the way I wanted them to".
I would add that much of the way you describe autism is the way that neurotypical people see us. If you talk to autistic people, you might get a little bit different view. I should not generalize, but I do feel that the core problem is communication, not empathy. Communication (in general) involves a lot of shared assumptions - and so many of them are wrong when neurotypical people think about autistic people's inner experience.
Good point. For me (ASD), the most helpful idea is autism as a different way of processing information. Which explains why I am easily overwhelmed, distracted or confused. And of course, social relations are all about processing information. Verbal, non-verbal, expectations, context etc. So that's where it gets difficult.
Whenever I read comments from people who say they're autistic, it's always view points that make so much sense and I never thought or heard about before. I love your straight forwardness, keep going, the world needs it.
This is absolutely it. The straightforwardness often gets me in trouble.
It's very troubling right now that I've got shit pieces exploding out of my ass
Could not agree more, neurodivergent folks in general communicate different than neurotypical ones.
There have been studies done on this now showing that neurotypical vs neurotypical and neurodivergent vs neurodivergent communication works really well however neurodivergent vs neurotypical not so much.
I’m autistic and definitely find myself naturally drawn to neurodivergent folks because they get me and understand my communication style.
I'm an autistic person, grown up with a narcissistic parent, and I can barely add anything else to this grandiose researched video.
We autistic people have an enormous sense of justice and an unknown need to follow the rules (especially our own routine, which basically are rules to us and calm us down). Even lying about something as simple as a birthday present can be as exhausting as going to a concert, which can be hell for us, since stimulus satiation easily can be reached depending on the person, day, mood, and energy left.
Most of the time, we come off as being 'too direct,' 'insensitive, or 'mean' are truly moments we haven't thought through. And when we get spoken to about it, most of us die an inner death of shame and regret. Being manipulative is something most of us don't have the resources for, even though a few of us could.
I, for example, am an autistic female person with a particular interest in psychology. Since I had problems identifying my feelings as a child (I just learned that I'm autistic a few years ago), I wanted to know more about emotions ending in an always observing and analytic side of mine. Luckily, this allowed me to learn how to strategize everyday conversations and to learn about feelings (for me, it's like the logic of math. Denied love = hate/disappointment, and so on). And because of this knowledge, I can, and I also have manipulated conversations in a very charming way (for example, if a group talks about things I don't know about, I shift the topic to something else in a very unconscious manner. Thanks to this knowledge (my boyfriend always says I'm the perfect 'Dark Empath' if I wanted to), I think I could also easily manipulate others, but the thing is (especially since I'm grown up with a narcissist), I don't want to.
People often underestimate that many of us (I'm not the only autistic person who has a better knowledge of their feelings) try to understand their feelings better. Even though we can't really 'feel' them, some of us are able to 'locate' and 'name' them. This sure won't change the fact that even I hurt people sometimes by accident or that people say that I'm an emotionless robot, but that's just the way it is. And, what many people also underestimate, is our pride. And I think this may be another reason because we sometimes get mixed up with narcissists.
Because some of us, even myself, use arrogance as a shield to protect ourselves. That doesn't mean we think that we're better than anyone (even though I met a narcissistic autistic person, so this is still a possibility), but since many of us have to justify ourselves or our way of living for years, some of us use our knowledge as a shield. Sometimes we really can sound narcissistic when we try to defend ourselves (again, something not all autistic people do. For many of us, a simple conversation is just too much. We're all different!). Mainly if the topic talked about contains justice. Since we don't know why people gossip or hurt other people/animals on purpose, people like that won't get any mercy from a confident autistic person. Because on our own realm of logic, behavior like that doesn't make any sense at all, and even the quietest and reserved autistic person can become a confident narcissistic-sounding bulldozer if things like that happen around us.
Of course, there are many other points when we may sound narcissistic (for example, if you talk about our favorite interests and make an error. We love to point out errors). So I see the interest and the similarities in both narcissism and autism, but believe me when I say that we are so much more than you can see from the outside. And the most significant issue between an autistic person and a narcissist (since I lived with one, I knew exactly what I'm talking about) is what's behind our words.
Autistic people, as far as I've learned it, still try to fit in with the world (even though we don't understand it), but narcissistic people try to make this world their own. Going all about them and hurting left and right, without any reason why or with an apology. Autistic people mostly search for the error within themselves (again, not all autistic people do that. There are exceptions with very non-empathic interested people, who can act quite self-centered because they heavily focus on how to ''survive' in this world, which is hard on its own sometimes). The narcissist, on the other hand, sees the error in the other person. Not them. But these are only my experiences in both of these fields ...
I know this was a bit long, but thank you to everybody who made it this far, and an enormous thank you to Dr. Ramani for making such a great video! So much love for her and everybody reading this. Have a nice day and stay safe!
No thank you. I identify with everything you say, especially amongst others the error part. Always suspected I am on the spectrum, explains why I get on so well with my autistic grandsons.
@@yvonne3903 Happy to have helped you :) Have a nice day
Thank you for your insight! This is extremely relatable for me and validates my own personal experiences as someone on the autism spectrum and having been raised by a person with narcissism. I'd be very interested in reading more from you!
@@missie.ann.317 Thank you very much! Maybe I'll write something more about it in the future :)
Aryaz, wow. This was so incredibly articulated and so helpful for me. Thank you so much for offering this wisdom and insight to us.
Needed this video. I'm lvl 2 and have been told I'm selfish, insensitive, rude, and narcissistic my whole life. That really couldn't be further from the truth.
As someone recently diagnosed adult with ASD1, one of my worst fears was being a narcissist. My grandpa most definitely was, and I was always afraid of becoming like him.
I think growing up around him and seeing the way he influenced and divided my family created a will in me which strove for the opposite. I remember asking my therapist if I was a narcissist...
I truly believe the way autistic people accept and express love are different than what neurotypical people expect, my partners have often told my I express love uniquely.
I've been with narcissistic partners as well, and from my experiences I now find it easier to identify, because like us with ASD, they can only keep the mask on for so long.
Could you please evaluate more on what made you differentiate?
Professor Tony Atwood, one of the foremost experts in autism has some talks on here. In one of them, he states that autism is often misdiagnosed as narcissism. He goes into the dynamics of why an autistic person may develop Narcissistic tendencies as a coping mechanism. It has to do with bullying and being excluded. I can speak for myself as a woman with Asperger's Syndrome that I have been misunderstood many times. Autistic people tend to attract Narcissists, and it took me years to realise that I did nothing wrong when I was surrounded by bullies who can somehow detect that I was far too trusting person so they used me and tried to make me the emotional punching bag. I have learned not to share my happiness because some people find it offensive. I have learned to manage the times when I feel myself brewing up for a meltdown, and I have learned to be cautious on who I allow into my life.
My ex-husband was a classic malignant narcissist and he managed to suck me into his games and before I knew it, I was an empty shell of myself. When we met, I was working a dead end job, but also designed clothes and did music and photography. He swooped in with the little digs at first designed to knock me off balance. He'd say things like "this job is just a means to an end, right?" Then came the "I have enough money for both of us and I'll pay for you to finish your degree, then you can 'return the favour." (No, I didn't know about narcissistic abuse so I didn't clock the transactional nature of his words. I don't think like that so it didn't occur to me. If the roles were reversed, I would have looked after him until he finished his studies.
Things were going ok until I started my courses. I was an honour student in fashion design and pattern making. In my mind, I could see a future of having a business making all the clothing and shoe ideas I had in my mind. It only took about a year for my ex to start first with demanding my time when he knew that time was for my studies. Then it became constant belittlement where he'd make snide remarks about me not working, as if he didn't say what our plans were in the first place. Then it became games where he'd seek attention by creating problems that I would have to solve, thus sucking all my time up. He'd stay out all night and when I'd ask him what happened? (In my mind he was out there hurt, and I was calling around to hospitals to see if he'd been to one), he'd deliberately not tell me, as if that was a sensible thing to do. I later found out he not only cheated on his first wife and played the "poor me, my wife cheated on me" but he also cheated on me. It didn't occur to me that he'd stay out all night at another woman's house.
Then he'd do the flip flop where he would project all his nasty qualities on to me. He accused me of "cheating" with not only an old friend who is gay and flamboyantly so, but also with another gay man at my college who was also a drag queen! My ex even went out with us to a drag show, my classmate performing, his boyfriend, and me. He still tried to accuse me of "cheating" with a gay man.
Fast forward, after I finally couldn't put up with the abuse any more and I was becoming someone I didn't like, I left. He made the separation hell and even tried to get his lawyer to ask me to sign a paper saying that I "committed adultery." He tried to paint me as "only after his money" and I set his lawyer straight by telling her, "I don't want anything from him. I just want to be free from him."
Yep, he had created an image of me as a woman who didn't exist.
Today, I LISTEN to what people say. I listen to the words they use and when it comes to their actions, I expect their words to match their actions.
My actions match my words. If I don't have reason to be suspicious, I won't be. If someone is suspicious of me when I know that I wouldn't willfully hurt anyone, then I keep my distance from them.
Once was enough. If a man talks about money, I make a quick exit because I know damned well he's one of those misogynists who believe women want their money and that's all they see.
I won't date a man who even mentions that he "has money." They do that because these fools genuinely believe that attractive women can be bought and sold. It's sick. Also, those men who "rate" women by attractive-ness are also big time wasters. All they want is a trophy who is an empty shell they can pretend "took everything" from them.
I walked away with nothing, and I mean nothing. I'd rather be alone, living a modest life and doing what I want than be with a liar, a cheat, and someone who only wanted me as a trophy. He expected me to be stupid and it offended him that I am very intelligent.
As my looks fade, I relish in my older woman status. Men don't see me any more and that is just fine with me. If a man wants my company, then he'd better be happy with laughing at the simple things and being creative.
I understand you so well especially "keeping happiness to yourself" people don't like seeing others do well! I do not have jealousy, I'm keeping myself to myself and throwing myself into work after being with a narcissist for 4 months. My energy is very low justnow.
@@KAT-dg6el - Same. I have PTSD and it is brutal when flashbacks come. I hide away during those times. I tell myself, those things aren't happening now. I do anchoring exercises where I name three things in the room at that moment which is good for grounding back into the present moment. Sending you good thoughts. ♥️
Thank you for your relatable comment.🌸 I'm happy to be older, as well. Finally free😊
oh my god. apart that ive never been married that was like SO COMPLETELY SPOT ON. like you said all of the true things right there
My question is, is that what point does the way someone is reacting to abuse turn into them becoming an abuser? I am still very confused about my childhood with my dad. I just realized I’m autistic and he is too and I can see how a lifetime of being undiagnosed and mistreated can give you coping mechanisms that look like a massive cystic abuse. But regardless, he still hurt me. He still made my childhood a living hell.
I wonder if he would ever be able to recognize that if I was to explain to him that he was autistic. I wonder if he’d ever be willing to put in the work. I’m gonna really weird spot right now because of it.
Is he just a traumatized autistic? Or is he also a narcissist?
I was married to high functioning autistic person. In the begginning it was kind of difficult, because I didn't understand why my husband doesn't understand some emotions. Later in my marriage I did some reading and started to have fun when my husband told people what he thinks about their behavior or actions. Surely he told the truth. The reaction of those people was priceless. And I had fun listening to it. He was a very good husband . Often cooked dinners. We were 32 years together and he was a very good husband.
Im guessing he was a very good husband 😂😂
As a music teacher I came across a few. When you figure out how to get them hyperfocused in on the content it was almost scary to watch how good they were. 13 year old kids who were ready for college level playing... I think its the next step in our evolution.
@@andrewbarker8631 hey there! One of said musically gifted autistics! The way you talk about autistic people in this comment is disgusting and othering and pretending like autism is a superpower willfully ignores the very serious challenges people like me face because of the worlds treatment and understanding of neurodivergent people.
Maybe if you spent less time treating us as if we are gods perfect little productivity/talent machines you could get real about how the world treats us and actually advocate for the human rights of those students of yours.
I hope you find peace
@@andrewbarker8631 I was like that in school with the violin.
I was homeschooled, so as soon as I got the violin in my hands I was a "natural", so to speak, and within a school year had been moved up two grades, beyond my own, in orchestra.
I was also college level reading, science, writing & grammar.
Socially I was COMPLETELY clueless.
I loved and accepted and trusted everyone and could not, for the life of me, comprehend how anybody could dislike anybody else. I could not compute the resentment, hostility, hatred, discrimination and so on that I started to hear about then recognize coming from other people, especially from those whom I loved and respected and saw as equal human beings to everyone else.
I never saw anybody as being more valuable or important or on a different level and so when I was bullied, quite severely I must add, I did not recognize it for what it was until I was in my teens.
I assumed they didn't mean to be cruel or mean because how could any human being actually feel and believe the way that they were showing me and others??
It has been one of THE MOST painful realizations in my nearly 45 years of life that the people I described above actually meant it all, and worse.
It's dumbfounded me and causes me severe pain to this very day, even with my own very covert narcissistic husband.
Just also going to throw out there that a PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance (it's poorly named, and many who have it prefer Persistent Drive for Autonomy if that gives a better idea)) profile of autism and/or comorbid ADHD can muddy the waters even more! Rejection sensitivity is very much a thing in both, but it's for very different reasons and coming from very different places.
Thank you so much for making this video, Dr. Ramani! I think this is very important work.
Yes PDA is a tricky additional facet. Based totally on fear and anxiety, as opposed to ego like the narcissist...that's what I've managed to figure out in my experiences
As a high functioning autistic that just learned about my autism in my 50s… I’m learning that my Mother is narcissistic and am trying to figure out how my Mother’s narcissism affected me. All complicated. This video really helped me understand the differences. Thank you for your care In presentation. I’ve decided to go no contact and now my mother is going after my family. Thanks for all your videos and support. Very helpful.
Autism is a *communication* disorder.
I've talked to other people on the Spectrum, and we tend to see this with most if not all of us.. we feel things, often very deeply (because we have trouble regulating our emotions) but we have trouble communicating how we feel and trouble picking up what others feel. It makes us feel isolated and awkward even when people actually like us.. we won't know that..
We don't always have good words for how we feel, or understand why we feel a certain way but we absolutely do feel, and we can't shut it off.. instead, we crash.
That's what sensory overload is. Us crashing.
Sensory overload often happens *because* we have a bunch of really strong emotions and sensory information coming in, that we don't know how to communicate or sometimes even interpret. It's like everything is turned up to 11 all the time..
It takes time to find words, in the time it takes to form a sentence we can mentally see and feel a whole range of stuff.. it takes slowing down to form words.. and when we need them most, we tend to end up non-verbal or at least in serious emotional turmoil.. and we all tend to react to such stress situations by speeding our minds up, not slowing them down.. it makes it hard to get out of the cycle..
Thing is, normally we compensate for our own issues communicating. We mask. In that overload state though, we can't do that anymore. What we send out in that state are signals that have nothing to do with how we actually feel.
For me, people often think I'm angry when I'm in that state. I'm not. I'm drawing a very uncomfortable verbal blank. I tend to be confused and sad in those moments and I'll feel like I can't think.. like every word I know is on the tip of my tongue but out of reach.
It snowballs, and the more it does, the less I'm able to compensate and send out social cues people actually recognize..
To most people this also often comes across as "unemotional", but it's actually the opposite. If we *could* calm down our emotions, we would probably feel and communicate a lot better. Where narcissists can shut off their empathy, we're almost the opposite. We *can't*..
Disappointing people often hurts us more than physical pain, often more so because we have trouble knowing what to do different next time, and how to respond better.
Speaking from personal experience.. it haunts..
I'm in my late 40s. My son is on the Spectrum and I have no answers for him to make it any easier, because I still struggle with the exact same issues he does..
At least he knows I know what it's like. That helps a little, but I wish I had more to help him..
Many other people on the Spectrum I talk to all tend to feel they *can't* actually "set aside emotions" because they always come in full blast.
We can't sort of filter them out like most people seem to be able to do to some extend, and narcissists as a matter of habit.. we can't.
That's why we end up overloaded so easily by seemingly every day situations in the first place.
Most people filter things out much better than we can, and are better at letting off steam. It takes understanding what you are feeling to know when you need to take a break..
We may *seem* to lack empathy because we don't know how to communicate what we feel.. but it's not because we don't feel it.
That's why so many of us deal with such massive anxiety so often.
To us, regular people often seem to be kind of low on empathy.
To be fair though, that might be because we have trouble *recognizing* social cues in others though xD At least some of the time, I know we miss expressions of empathy from others, and it can feel almost a little startling when we do see it.. we aren't used to people actually being bothered by our pain.
People just generally tend to get over emotions a lot easier than most of us do..
Figured I'd give my perspective as one of the various people on the Spectrum who have responded to this video..
If you are the parent of an autistic kid, and think your kid doesn't care.. please remember what I said.. chances are, your child *does* care. Often deeply so.. but they don't know how to tell you..
Maybe make a chart of feelings (emojis work) and let kids work the other way. We often know what we *don't* feel.
Put "I love you" in there, and if your kids uses it to tell you "I love you", don't dismiss it as coincidence..
*Hugs*
Thanks for raising the topic.. ❤
You put words to something I’ve been struggling to articulate for so long.
@@huldacisneros2536 took me a long time too. Glad to share ❤️
Me: I am pissed off at my mother for cheating on her boyfriend on my bed.
Therapist: ah yes, you are upset at finding out your mother has a sexual drive...
Me: nononono, I'm upset that she had to do this on my bed.
Therapist: How are your mother's sex life and your bed connected in anyways?
Me: because she did the deed in my bed. In my bedroom. Where I sleep.
Therapist: Why are you so interested in what your mother gets up to? It's her business what happens in her bed.
Me: Then it's my business what happens in mine, right? Look. Give me a pen and paper. *draws rough map of the house* Here's her bedroom. *draws small square* here is her bed. *draws lines pointing to the side, write "her bed" and "her bedroom" like a blueprint* Here is my bedroom. Here is my bed. *draws more, labels them blueprint-style on the other side* . Here's where she had sex. *writes "where she had sex", connects the line... To my bed, in my bedroom.* Can you see the problem here?
Therapist: That you are strangely invested in your mother's sex life.
......................................................................................................
I'm the one who doesn't know how to communicate apparently. Despite drawing a clearly labeled blueprint that anyone who doesn't need sunglasses, a white cane and a dog could understand, and despite a presumably neurotypical psychiatrist not getting that I'm upset at how she *invaded my personal space* to have sex with someone.
Thank you so much for this ❤️
Thank you for taking the time to write this long comment. 8 don't think you could have known how it would have completely changed someone's life.
I self diagnosed myself with Autism using two online tests at the weekend. I'm 53 and been trying to figure "me" out my whole life. Nothing explained my experiences fully until reading your comment.
I have been so judged by and outcast by my family because of my "anger" which has never ever felt like anger! But what else to call it? When everyone else tells you you are X from year dot, what else are you to think. But I know what anger feels like and my explosions do not come from anger.
I truly, truly appreciate your comment. Thank you 🙏🙏🙏
I was accused of being a Narcissist by wife, and began watching your videos, and eventually got assessed for it. I asked to be evaluated for Autism at the same time, and the Doctor determined that I have High Functioning Autism.
This was a great video, and I wish more people understood the mind. Thank you for all the hard work you put into it, and confirming my own conclusions on the Narcissism/Autism research issue.
I commend you for getting tested!!! The fact that you considered that there was something going on with you pretty much ruled out narcissism. So glad for your wife to understand the difference. I wish you well!!!!!🙏🏽
I hear you my friend. I got assessed a couple of years ago and got diagnosed with Asperger’s ( really high function autism) and ADHD. I feared I was a Narcissist because of my reasonably simple view of the world. Thank you for sharing. I don’t feel so alone now.
@@Utaker935, it's rough going, I won't lie. Helps knowing why I've always been different, but at the same time I'm now OFFICIALLY different, you know? Not to mention the negative impact the diagnosis has had on my relationships.
It also helps that I know there are other people like you and I out there. Sadly there are no support groups in my area.
Good for you ❤️ As someone married to the same, the results of how we feel and the PTSD we experience from lack of emotional reciprocity feels the same. That's why I follow this channel as well, because here I feel supported but in the autistic community we are told to just accept the actions and put up with it. My husband refuses evaluation and frankly, he masks to anyone outside anyhow, so I don't see that it would make much difference. I wish you and your wife the best, it is a very challenging relationship to say the least.
@@rebeccalui4818 😓 yeah
As the mother of a highly functional autistic teenager, and as the daughter of a moderately narcissistic mother, I know the difference. This video was spot on.
Feedback from someone else usually results in a meltdown, i break into tears and start repeating how sorry I am and start rocking and hitting my head, sometimes people I don’t know think I’m trying to make them feel bad for me, but I actually just feel really bad
Im 28 and just finding out I have ASD.
Everything makes so much more sense now . The anxiety and depression and why socializing has been so hard. I grew up with a sister close in age who I believe to be a narcissist. Was a very rough childhood. I internally felt very deeply . Never understood how a family member could treat you so horribly. Adolescence was hell and now that I'm adult and have disconnected from her I feel so much better. She is making me out to seem like shitty sister but thTs fine with me . Can't do that anymore.
I’m the shitty one too. I’ll take one for the team.
@foxyfoxy4e1
Here's what I think, as someone who's been diagnosed (HFA) since 5, and am now 25, I think there's only 3 things important about the diagnosis:
1 - you get some closer about "why you're like this"
2 - you'll have *some* answers as to how to "better" conduct yourself
3 - practice
You only really missed out on #3, but if I can get to a place of relative "inner peace," I think anyone can.
Tbh, the diagnosis as a kid made me pretty angry cause I was told I would "likely" miss out on X, Y, & Z. I have my own place, I'm engaged to a wonderful woman, I have a good job and good people around me; I also have my space/alone time to decompress from all the stimuli I take in.
I realize I have no way of understanding the repercussions of your upbringing (I had a pretty rough one, myself #brokeboi), but I still believe in you, Homie
@@--...--...--... I appreciate that comment alot thank you :) I myself also feel at peace with life. Have a great partner 10 years now . Job I enjoy . It's not a bad thing . Just different. Nice to see it from another perspective with the diagnosis but relatively unchanged path.
@@foxyfoxy4e1 well done you.
Good for you! Just because she's your sister doesn't mean she gets to abuse you.
As an autistic individual who was groomed and abused by a narcissist in a relationship, and finally left some years ago and is in recovery, I NEEEDED this. He would always put me at fault for everything wrong, never took accountability, and when I learned what narcissism was and confronted him, he flipped the script and turned it on me. So it left me wondering all these years if it was really me. So hearing this was so extremely validating and necessary to my recovery journey.
Thank you.
For all that you do.
Ouch
It sounds like he was an abusive person using the DARVO script: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. I'm sorry you went through this!
(((Hugs)))
Same, it seems like we attract these people.
I wish that I can unattract them, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong.@@piratealeks6865
hi Dr. Ramani! i hope you see this comment. i am autistic (late diagnosed.) and have complex PTSD. i was raised by a malignant narcissist. when I was younger I felt that I displayed a lot of narcissistic behaviors, and my therapist at the time was really trying to have me understand that I wasn't. now that I've been working through my CPTSD I understand that (and majorly in the past.) I have been very self consumed person, and have learned this is because of my complex trauma. I'm seeing a lot of people in the comments speaking about being narcissistic, and autistic. I know it happens, and to my knowledge it's very VERY rare. I don't mean to minimize these folks experiences, especially because I can relate to their feelings, but I think what they are experiencing is similar to what I have with being autistic and having endured complex trauma (the self consumed aspect.) especially because I would feel a lot of shame over my past actions that could be seen as narcissistic, and maybe that's what the other commenters are feeling. can we do a video about ASD, and CPTSD? I think it would benefit the masses. I love your videos!!
My best friend has diagnoses of mild autism and mild learning difficulties. But she has massive empathy, she really feels what others around her are feeling, more than anyone else I know. She always knows if I am sad or down and she will ruffle my hair or hug me to cheers me up. She has a 250,000 word diary where she explains and describes her own feelings in detail everyday.
She likes trying new things and she certainly is interested in new feelings because she has had so much suffering in her life and now she is at last finding happiness and joy in life.
To me, she is not damaged or ill, to me she is simply a human being complete and perfect just as she is. I don’t care what her diagnosis are, to me they have nothing meaningful to say about who she is.
Thank you for this video, and, as a high functioning autistic woman, I would like to share some of my experiences.
In regards to considering the impacts of words, it is not that I did not understand how my words would be received, it is that I assumed other people would interpret them like I would interpret them. I had to learn everything about others' (nonautists) interpretatiom, like learning a new language.
It was hurtful when people got hurt because of something I said - I didn't understand why (until I learned through each painful experience) and I didn't want it to happen. I experienced so much grief when trying to connect to people (in my way) and being met with indifference and even backlash.
Also, I remember as a child, feeling deep empathy towards many people around me, but this was often met with cold reactions. For me, simply the joy of being around people and sharing random facts was enough, but other people would not think that way apparently.
I think it would be very interesting if you made a video on autistic narcissists as wel - as both my parents and older brother are high functioning autistic people, and they are all narcissistic.
I have other autistic narcissist extended family members, as well as deeply enabling autistic ones, and some truth tellers as well (like myself)
My experience as an undiagnosed autistic child was very invalidating by the world, and I can understand why narcissistic tendencies could develop in response to all those strong feelings.
I forgot to mention something as well, growing up I also ended up with mostly narcissistic friends, maybe due to the fact that my expression of empathy matched their lack of, but I cared a lot about them and I also tried constantly to do well by them - my lack of understanding of neurotypical emotion meant that they could tell me whatever about it, because I felt I am different from others and I wanted to fit in and I also believed what they were saying because they seemed to be highly sociable and understand social rules . And my conscientiousness meant that I would actively try to accommodate them and what they were saying. Meanwhile they hardly cared about me and I didn't even notice it, I was happy to have someone around. So I could also understand why someone autistic would become the biggest enabler.
I have ASD (high functioning female) and was married to a narcissistic man that had ASD as well. I'd also be very interested to see a video about people who have both. He was more the "vulnerable narcissist" or "covert narcissist". Always the victim, very passive aggressive, lots of gaslighting, etc in addition to being an addict and alcoholic.
Omg I second all this 100%
As a woman on the spectrum who was raised by a single mom with BPD who has some narcissistic traits but not all and comes from a toxic family, I can understand what you are saying so much. I literally got diagnosed when I was 5, because I was showing signs of depression and suicidal thoughts as I was so deeply troubled by the fact other kids didn't wanted to play with me. I accepted so much shit because I was so utterly lonely.
I can relate, particularly to the last paragraph. I had a couple parental figures that had some narcissistic tendencies when I was growing up. My step-dad would call me names. He also called me “Rainman”, and that was one name I liked, and it took me years to figure out what that one meant! I laugh now, because that was perhaps the one name that was somewhat accurate!
My dad was even worse. He was largely absent, and I never understood how he could be so nice one minute, and terrifying the next. I’ve dated my fair share of manipulative, narcissistic, and traumatized women as an adult, and I can see why.
Manipulative people find us an easy target because it takes us longer to figure things out, and we believe them in areas where their skills seem more advanced. But the last time this happened, I figured it out much more quickly and got out! Now I’m watching these videos so I can spot their social patterns much faster, as well as remove any bad behaviors I learned from them over the years, such as inappropriate jokes.
And that’s the even bigger rub: Because I’ve been around so many, and I tend to mimic behaviors to fit in, I think people have suspected I’m toxic when I actually care a lot and just want to get along! At least my mom and grandparents were understanding with me. I asked my mom recently why she didn’t say anything when my step-dad called me names. She said she never saw any of it! I thought about it, and for the most part, I think she was right. In classic fashion, he always waited until I was alone to say all those “colorful” things to me…
My mother is autistic and my ex-husband narcistic. The big differences between them are that my mother will respect my boundaries, once I make her aware of them. My ex never did and never will, quite the opposite. My mother feels quilty when explained she hurted me. My ex felt ashamed, but never felt quilty of anything. He always played the victim. My mother never plays the victim. She is very independant and self-reliant. My ex needed constant attention and validation.
It took me decades to figure it out, but since I did I got free to shape my own life.
Thank you for your videos dr. Ramani, they are zo helpfull!
LOL the irony here is unbelievable! Labeling your mother and Ex. Talking about YOUR wishes and boundaries all while ignoring THEIRS by talking about them HERE and I sure without their permission.
@@lorireed8046 dear Lori, i am so happy that I am finally able to talk about my wishes and boundaries, to allow myself to be discerning, after decades of living in confusion and pain. And yes that can mean to lable. I did that here for the purpose of illustrating my personal experiences with autism and narcism, being very different and in what ways. Furthermore: I don't need anybody's permission to talk about my experiences, certainly not of those who tried to silence me in the past for there own convienience.
@@martineroodborst8651 *A narc has entered into the chat. (That's got to be the dumbest thing I've ever read, someone coming into a video about narcissistic behaviors, expecting not to have their mask instantly ripped the F off when they open their toxic af mouth lol.) Don't pay them no heed. ;)
@@martineroodborst8651 Wow .. ignoring the fact YOU are the one labeling them. Excusing your own behavior and boundaries crossing and still pretending to be the victim "your whole life" . Yeah, okay.
@@lorireed8046is there a reason why you're on this thread other than to troll people? some of us are here to learn. grow up.
As someone living (and struggling) with autism I feel offended whenever someone says we "lack empathy". I think it's better to speak of "lack of perceived empathy". I have empathy, loads of it, once I succeed in identifying the feelings at play. But I struggle to express it in a way that normies understand, for which I coincidentally get next to no empathy or understanding from them.
I'm autistic. Our affection and empathy is so misunderstood.
We love and care deeply for our loved ones, we just don't show it like typical people.
I was a nanny for an autistic kid for years. I also had close contact with a narcissistic person (brother-in-law), and I never understood the comparisons. They are completely different things.
Odd, but fundamentally nice and honest, vs manipulative and malicious? Yes.
I don't get how they get mistaken.
@@Olivia-W My diagnosed ASD niece is not fundamentally nice and honest though-- she is super manipulative, entitled, etc :/
[she is currently running a smear campaign against me because I told her to stop waking her mom and me up at midnight-2am to scream at her mom-- so now she's lying about me by projecting her own faults onto me, which is super narcissistic]
Interesting, thanks for sharing
@@Olivia-W Not everyone with autism is nice. Some are very much the opposite. I've become so used to being devalued and belittled and criticized that I feel genuinely shocked when I interact with other allistics and they treat me kindly as if they like me. Sometimes it genuinely brings me to tears how nice allistic people can be. I've never experienced kindness from an autistic person. Maybe inside their heads they believe they are being kind, but it completely does not translate, and their autism looks identical to narcissistic abuse.
I have autism and I’ve noticed there’s this weird dynamic between narcissists and people with autism. They’ll sometimes target us because we’re naive and easy to manipulate, but they can’t stand the “directness”. I end up accidentally offending them and then the rage starts. I don’t want to make enemies of people but in some ways it’s good because it keeps narcissists away from you.
I raised my sister, ended up with custody of her, who has Asperger's and severe ADHD, and later married a narcissist and there are so many similarities but so many differences lol.
There’s a massive lack of empathy on the part of society at large when 80% or so of people with autism are discriminated against, and consequently are unemployed and have no means to provide for their own human needs: food, clothing, shelter.
Imo, most neurotypical people aren't empathetic, they're just more tactful. To be less generous, they're better liars.