I think this could be a good cell for around town cars, local delivery vehicles and small form factor vehicles (think Arcimoto). These vehicles don't need large ranges because they never really leave the city. With the right kind of urban charges (Ultra Chargers?) there would be no issue because charing times would be extremely short due to the lower battery capacity and the high charge currents that are possible.
I have experimented with two lithium titanate cells available from Ali and also an eBay seller who imports from china and ships from Rhode Island. I bought about 30 of the 12 ah cells that are in a pouch format with tabs at the top that can be soldered or connected using PCB or hole punch / eyelets. Those all tested at capacity and have performed very well, and are probably the best energy density of the LTOs given the minimal packaging. However, two of the 30 leaked, so some wear-in testing before building into packs is advisable or at least a pack design with multiple smaller modules that can be swapped out in the event that one leaks. Interestingly, the capacity of the 6s3p pack in which one of the cells leaked did not decrease noticeably, nor is there an internal short that drains the other cells. Time will tell, however. I have been more impressed with the 16ah green cells from small den on Ali, also marketed as super battery. I don't know how their energy density compares to the larger more common blue cells but their power density certainly seems better. They have all tested above capacity although this was only after I realized that you do need to charge them up to 2.85 or even 2.9 v to get everything out of them. I have contemplated using these in an EV with low range but high performance. They also are much more robust than the pouch cells. That vendor on Ali just changed all their listings to 26ah which I am inclined to believe is real since the 16ah all pulled above 16ah. Thus, I am tempted to wait even longer to see if they will continue improving the energy density. Theoretically, one could build a tesla pack with 405v charge voltage in a 144s configuration or 6x24s modules that would weigh approx. 150kg including busbars (cells weighing 130kg). Of course, with only 10kwh of energy, or about 1/7th that of a model 3, range would be abysmal. But the battery would also weigh about a third or even a quarter of a tesla pack.
This is very interesting information. I think that it may be more interesting to create a buffer pack from LTO to use the benefits of high current charging. In reality all electric cars don't use full potential of regen. So you could have small primary pack from LTO and bigger range extender pack from traditional NMC or LFP. I would be greatful if you could email me the details of those sellers you mentioned. You can find my e-mail in the about page. If you cannot find it let me know.
@@LatutaEV Yes that is also how I would utilize LTO. Have a LTO pack underneath the back seats right in front of the tesla rear LDU, with a 48v lifepo4 pack that is removable under the hood connected to my growatt 5000es which can either feed 240v to the tesla charger or can pull energy from the LTOs while the vehicle is charging (mppt range is 150-450v) back into the 48v lifepo4 pack. Yes I will email you the links.
This was kind of a best LTO against one of the best NMC. NMC is the most popular chemistry for Li Ion battery. It stands for Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide
I am not sure if LTO would be the best for the boat. In the car the regenerative braking is limited as the normal NMC battery can not take such a high current. Therefore part of regen is waisted. I think one can use smaller buffer type battery for more efficient regen and faster charging in a car together with a bigger extender type pack. I don't envisage such a scenario in a boat.
@@LatutaEV NMC? I’m curious why you think a huge pack of LTO batteries combined with some capacitors wouldn’t be able to keep up with such a great deal of fridges and freezers with the fact it’s basically a floating house/service truck working how many days a week
I think in a boat scenario benefits of LTO may not be used in the most optimal way. Things like full regen and fast charging ability not critical for the boat. I think it is more important energy density and overall capacity of the battery
@@LatutaEV okay So I’m curious what you think would be best for a boat with numerous freezer’s and fridges (power pigs) without any salt water or fire hazard issues ? And what would you use for solar equipment and inverter&chargers for what type of batteries ? I’ve got twin engine’s each one has a 250amp alternator
It sounds very interesting but I guess it is not as easily available for purchase. I did a quick search but I can't find where I can purchase a few test units
Yes I looked at them. You can't actually purchase them unless you are a big corporate. I would like to try 4-6 cells first. Thy probably expect volume of thousands per month or so
I hope it is a joke as lightning has huge energy. It is rather dangerous. If you were to try something like that (I would not recommend it though) you would need supercapacitor. The issue here is enormous energy in short period of time
The claim on LTO is too good to be true. It's a new tech, the advertised longevity of the cells are still theoretical. Also, it's very pricey at this point. Great technology tho.
The main difference between battery and supercapacitor is that battery electric current produced as a result of ectro-chemical reaction while capacitor stores charge electrostatically. My understanding that LTO has all attributes of a battery where the nature of the reaction is electro chemical
It's not. Supercapacitors have way lower power density but can be charged much faster than LTO. LTO is basically an intermediary between lithium batteries and lithium supercapacitors.
I have a 72v lto battery pack in my ebike and I am very impressed with it because of the quick charging. The only downside for me is the size.
Which manufacture are your LTO battery is from?
@@LatutaEV yinlong
@@joellontoc3231 cool they seems quite popular choice
LTO Battery ?
I think this could be a good cell for around town cars, local delivery vehicles and small form factor vehicles (think Arcimoto). These vehicles don't need large ranges because they never really leave the city. With the right kind of urban charges (Ultra Chargers?) there would be no issue because charing times would be extremely short due to the lower battery capacity and the high charge currents that are possible.
Yes but I think it might be the best to be used as a part of hybrid battery lto to harvest change through regen and NMC bit for the range
I have experimented with two lithium titanate cells available from Ali and also an eBay seller who imports from china and ships from Rhode Island. I bought about 30 of the 12 ah cells that are in a pouch format with tabs at the top that can be soldered or connected using PCB or hole punch / eyelets. Those all tested at capacity and have performed very well, and are probably the best energy density of the LTOs given the minimal packaging. However, two of the 30 leaked, so some wear-in testing before building into packs is advisable or at least a pack design with multiple smaller modules that can be swapped out in the event that one leaks. Interestingly, the capacity of the 6s3p pack in which one of the cells leaked did not decrease noticeably, nor is there an internal short that drains the other cells. Time will tell, however. I have been more impressed with the 16ah green cells from small den on Ali, also marketed as super battery. I don't know how their energy density compares to the larger more common blue cells but their power density certainly seems better. They have all tested above capacity although this was only after I realized that you do need to charge them up to 2.85 or even 2.9 v to get everything out of them. I have contemplated using these in an EV with low range but high performance. They also are much more robust than the pouch cells. That vendor on Ali just changed all their listings to 26ah which I am inclined to believe is real since the 16ah all pulled above 16ah. Thus, I am tempted to wait even longer to see if they will continue improving the energy density. Theoretically, one could build a tesla pack with 405v charge voltage in a 144s configuration or 6x24s modules that would weigh approx. 150kg including busbars (cells weighing 130kg). Of course, with only 10kwh of energy, or about 1/7th that of a model 3, range would be abysmal. But the battery would also weigh about a third or even a quarter of a tesla pack.
This is very interesting information. I think that it may be more interesting to create a buffer pack from LTO to use the benefits of high current charging. In reality all electric cars don't use full potential of regen. So you could have small primary pack from LTO and bigger range extender pack from traditional NMC or LFP. I would be greatful if you could email me the details of those sellers you mentioned. You can find my e-mail in the about page. If you cannot find it let me know.
@@LatutaEV Yes that is also how I would utilize LTO. Have a LTO pack underneath the back seats right in front of the tesla rear LDU, with a 48v lifepo4 pack that is removable under the hood connected to my growatt 5000es which can either feed 240v to the tesla charger or can pull energy from the LTOs while the vehicle is charging (mppt range is 150-450v) back into the 48v lifepo4 pack. Yes I will email you the links.
@@EEGworld thanks
so what's LTO batterie;s actual capacity compared to Lion batteries? What's the difference in pertentage?
If we look at average examples of NMC and LTO it is roughly 340 Wh for NMC against 120 Wh for LTO
@@LatutaEV so almost 3 times lower? what about best LTO vs best Lion? also what's NMC?
This was kind of a best LTO against one of the best NMC. NMC is the most popular chemistry for Li Ion battery. It stands for Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide
So I’m curious what you think about what LTO batteries would you use for a big boat
In conjunction with capacitors
I am not sure if LTO would be the best for the boat. In the car the regenerative braking is limited as the normal NMC battery can not take such a high current. Therefore part of regen is waisted. I think one can use smaller buffer type battery for more efficient regen and faster charging in a car together with a bigger extender type pack. I don't envisage such a scenario in a boat.
@@LatutaEV NMC?
I’m curious why you think a huge pack of LTO batteries combined with some capacitors wouldn’t be able to keep up with such a great deal of fridges and freezers with the fact it’s basically a floating house/service truck working how many days a week
NMC is Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide = traditional chemistry.
I think in a boat scenario benefits of LTO may not be used in the most optimal way. Things like full regen and fast charging ability not critical for the boat. I think it is more important energy density and overall capacity of the battery
@@LatutaEV okay
So I’m curious what you think would be best for a boat with numerous freezer’s and fridges (power pigs) without any salt water or fire hazard issues ?
And what would you use for solar equipment and inverter&chargers for what type of batteries ?
I’ve got twin engine’s each one has a 250amp alternator
Does anyone have a good supplier I live in the US northern MN I'm getting these specifically for the safety and temp coefficient
Unfortunately I don't know what supplier you could trust. I am planning to order some from China and do some testing to verify the specs
Hi! How about MpCO?
It sounds very interesting but I guess it is not as easily available for purchase. I did a quick search but I can't find where I can purchase a few test units
@@LatutaEV #microvast #gen3
Yes I looked at them. You can't actually purchase them unless you are a big corporate. I would like to try 4-6 cells first. Thy probably expect volume of thousands per month or so
@@LatutaEV no, i am so DIY join EV, as you
@@aurystoaurysto3337 have you purchased from them yourself?
Could I use a bunch of these to catch lightning? Could you do the math on that and get back to me please?
I hope it is a joke as lightning has huge energy. It is rather dangerous. If you were to try something like that (I would not recommend it though) you would need supercapacitor. The issue here is enormous energy in short period of time
The claim on LTO is too good to be true. It's a new tech, the advertised longevity of the cells are still theoretical. Also, it's very pricey at this point. Great technology tho.
I agree about the price bit but the number of cycles has been confirmed through simulations and testing.
LTO is a supercapacitor,
The main difference between battery and supercapacitor is that battery electric current produced as a result of ectro-chemical reaction while capacitor stores charge electrostatically. My understanding that LTO has all attributes of a battery where the nature of the reaction is electro chemical
It's not. Supercapacitors have way lower power density but can be charged much faster than LTO. LTO is basically an intermediary between lithium batteries and lithium supercapacitors.