Battery testing Low temperature LTO
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ย. 2024
- Lithium Titanate Oxide testing in low temperature for efficiency, capacity etc
Spreadsheet data:
drive.google.c...
4 wire load tester affiliate link:
s.click.aliexp...
One caveat to this tester tho is it says test voltage only goes down to 2V - the older one would happily test down to about 1.5V.
As an employee in Yinglong for more than for years, it's amazing to see your video.
Thanks Morffy.
Are you still working at Yinglong?
Why the bloody dislikes, I don't get it, the man has done his due diligence and you dislike it, go and do it better if you think you can you damn sardines. Good on ya Brandon, thanks mate.
Thx - it doesn't bother me too much. I think I get a few from a POS I've been in a court battle with for a few years - I can see a correlation between court proceedings and dislikes haha.
@@brendontait6968 😂😄
The reason your infrared thermometer showed a substantial difference between oven and aluminum block temps was your reading on a reflective material, the less reflective and more flat your surfaces are the more accurate your reading will be. The reason your Temps differed between samples so much was attack angle on the material. As I stated before, un-reflective, flat surfaces read at a right angle will give the best possible readings. Rounded, reflective surfaces read at a different angle is where your inconsistencies came from.
If you ever have a chance to compare temp differences between infrared meters and other types of temp devices such as thermocouples or even temp sticks please do it. It will blow your mind at how much variation those temp guns will give. The largest variations I have found is with highly reflective surfaces shooting at an angle....that may be a decent content idea for you😉
Hey Mat, yeah thanks. I actually cut the video where I did a second confirmation test to show that the blocks were each reliably measuring that temperature, the reading wasn't due to the angle in this case - but you are correct, the angle makes a difference.
@@brendontait6968 this phenomenon is called emissivity and there a setting for more reflective materials to calibrate to.
@@wthompson2444 you sir are dead on Im a calibration technician and see this on TH-cam all the time. We calibrate Infrared temp guns on a Black Body and set all instruments under test to .95 emissivity
Great to see that you have taken youtube quite seriously 😉, and not like a lot of other youtubers, your actually making useful videos...
Thanks Andi!
Measured temperature differences are due to changes in emissivity based on material or, in this case, I’d imagine surface finish. Always nice to see someone addressing accuracy issues when measuring temp with these!
Thx, surface finish was fairly similar on each of these, but you are deff on the right track
@@brendontait6968 Correct. The reflective surface of the metal cannot be measured accurately with that type of device or a thermal camera. Doesn’t work. Its similar to pointing it at a mirror.
You were kindof on the right track, but then fell off the rails 🥺
The transmissive properties of glass fall off around 3um whereas these measure around 10um, so none of the photons will make it to the reflective surface on the back of the mirror. The front face of the glass will provide some reflection, however... glass has a high emissivity which means that it will emit a lot of its own temperature photons. Why did the two bars read so differently when they appeared so similar?
@@brendontait6968 it's possible the ratings were different because they were at different angles. I just know I've had the same problem with my handheld reader and thermal camera on reflective surfaces like pipes.
That was one of the many great benefits to choose for LTO to going to use in my scooters. I don't want to drive my scooter in to my home in the colder days to top the batteries up. Thanks for this test.
No Problem
Thanks for confirming my own findings on the 97% efficiency Brendon, oh and the freezing test was nice too :)
Hey Daan, no stress
Heya Brendon, great to see a new post :) 3:46 - emissivity my friend, emissivity! If you ever drive that thing through Nelson I'd love to shout you a beer, show you my CNCs and ask you a few questions about yours. Especially those big drives!
Hey Pete... Yeah for sure! Servos are upto 2Kw and spindle is 11kW. Not sure when I'll be down there - we seem to be continually locked down!
Brendon, love your presentation style and ability to reduce a complex problem to a simple explanation. Thank you
Thanks Matthew, am working on it... I still think a way to go.
Those infrared thermometers really grind my gears too. The things can work great, but it's really about how you use them and when it's a suitable tool. For example I saw someone use them to compare the temperature of phones by pointing it at the plastic, glass or aluminum housing. It's could kinda work if you know the emissivity of the materials, but with these plastics you never know exactly. Besides, most of the cheapo ones have a fixed emissivity factor.
So true! Most people don’t know what the word means, so here: emissivity gives a number of factored probability of how many times you can say “ey missy!” to a woman before she scratches your eyes out.
Addendum and case in point: one of the thingies in the oven was called “ey missy” to the point of getting all hot and bothered, which explains the temperature differential. I might note though, that until today I had no idea about the obvious correlation between women and aluminium cylinders when it comes to “ey missy” reactive abilities. Thanks, learned something!
As a Canadian, I wish I had the time and money to fill the space under my teardrop's floorboards with these.... would help a lot with some extra heat in the trailer when it's south of -20 outside. Maybe one day!
one day..... Any reason you cant make a start with a small bank now and add to it in future?
Excellent! A very thorough testing in cold temperatures.
Thanks Marcus
It's about time someone did this
Thanks for testing! 🤘
It's been below - 20c here In Finland over two weeks!
Stay safe and warm down there! 😀
Thanks Ari - things are good in NZ without the CCP virus really affecting us as much as most.
Yeah NZ did great job whit this thing going on. You should be proud of your country! Sure i am! 🤘
Finland did good last spring but it's been downhill after. 😒 Today i am shamed those goverment actions. 3 week lockdown is startin on monday but it's already too late...
Love you detail videos brother you really think them out thanks for your insight.
Glad you like them!
If you're filming the measurement process you can implement a cheap, but labour intensive 4-wire-measurement by measuring voltage with a multimeter and manually integrating the power afterwards from the video.
Hey, yeah there are a few ways to do it. Glad I have a 4 wire load now.
this is the best testing i have seen Great Job!!!!!!!!!!!! these LTO cells are a motromer homers dreab they can phicaly sit where the lead acid house batters where, outside or down center of the frame rails of class A (without pass through storage). aside from cost the batter bank could be huge and could be charged at high C rates. What more could a motor home want to never have have a generator or solar panels, just multiple huge alternators activated like a jake brake. You can buy a lot of batteries for the price of a 7.5 KW generator
Thanks for that, there are a lot of aspects that I really like about this chemistry
I figured you had clear coated one of the aluminum cylinders so it’s not reflective in whatever wavelength the non contact thermometer is measuring. That one would measure correctly while the other (unmodified) would be off as it’s a terrible black body. Basically insulating itself against thermal radiative losses the same way a space blanket works to insulate you. With the right thermal camera the uncoated one would appear black(ish) but the “clear” coated one (in the visual spectrum) would appear white, glowing by comparison. This may not be what you did but I think it would be another way to achieve the same effect if not.
Hey Brett - you get 10 Points! good work, first one to fully describe what I was showing. WIll do an update on this in near future.
Very good tests! Thanks for doing this!
Thank you!
Thanks for this testing. I have always found that having real world experience makes for the best understanding compared to reading spec sheets.
Thanks, yeah I deff get more confidence from experience than specs (especially when it's for Chinese equip)
The incorrect reading from your non contact thermometer is due to infrared emissivity. The emissivity is the effectiveness of the material to radiate infrared radiation (heat) that the thermometer measures. The thermometer is calibrated to a specific emissivity. Effectively the aluminum is too shiny to get a correct reading on that thermometer.
Hey Trumpet, close... why did one show hot and the other cold? They were both similarly shiny? Both reflective and heavily oxidized aluminium have low emissivity levels. Glass and water have a high emissivity, but also highly reflectivity.
Awesome thumbnail 😂🥶
haha - thx Will, i was sweating like a pig taking it in the middle of summer
Will Prowse refuses to acknowledge messages!
I’ve been trying to get help finding out about these Li2Ti03 batteries for boat’s with larger loads and 250amp alternators on the main engines!
I also have a xantrax freedom 25 that keeps blowing fuses in the MPPT controller every time I plug into the shoreline power supply the bulk charging from the inverter charger is to strong!
I’m curious why you ignore messages about these Li2Ti03 batteries for boat’s?
Plus I’ve been sending messages about this Freedom 25 inverter chargers blowing fuses in the MPPT controller every time I plug into the dock it’s bulk charging is to strong and I have been trying to get help to find a inverter charger with MPPT controller built in to avoid this issue! Most larger boats have a 250amp 12volt alternator and battery selection is critical!!
Hence why I’ve spent 6 months trying to your attention on this issue!
I’m curious why you are constantly talking about guns and girlfriends instead of DYO solar systems?
@@fixitbrewbaycustom854 I get over 100 emails a day. I don't even have enough time to open them. Sorry. Check out diy solar forum if you need help
@@fixitbrewbaycustom854 and yeah, use lto then. Sounds good. Up to you
add some cooper lugs to wattmeter, insert under power wire or lug, this will remove as much wire loss as possible. Look up Kelvin connection for more understanding.
I was fortunate enough to find a couple used toshiba 24V LTO batteries (12s2p with 20A cells). I like the 12s better because I don't have to be as concerned about higher cell voltages when it's hot outside. I didn't use a BMS, just 2 cheap PCBs that they use for the supercap boards (6s). I am thinking of using one of those active balancers that uses the capacitors to keep all the cells at near equal state of charge.
Lucky!!! Tbh I'm not a big fan of cell balancing (I'll go into this in a future video) I'd keep a monitor/BMS on for safekeeping
@@brendontait6968 The supercap PCBs are sort of like a simple BMS, they switch on a resistive load when a cap (cell) reaches 2.7Vdc. That would only work for smaller charge currents, but they work for my solar charge controller setup (not real high charge current). The capacitor balancers can be switched off/on so I was planning on turning them on at 2.4V per cell (29V pack voltage for LTO 12S).
Note on laser thermometer: reflectivity of the object can make the measurements off. You measured on the round parts of the aluminum. The laser likely bounced off in different directions depending on where it was pointed at the surface. Try measuring at a 90 degree angle on the flat side???
I have one of those thermometers and you're likely to get widely varying results trying to measure the temperature of a mirror. You might also try painting or marking the surface with a color that isn't as reflective.
Nearly... the emissivity and reflectivity combined. Additionally, things that aren't reflective in the visible spectrum can be reflective in the IR spectrum. There will be no difference between measuring a mirror or a piece of glass. The glass is opaque to IR in that wavelength, so the sensor will not be able to see through to the 'silvering'. Glass has a surprisingly high emissivity, but it also has a high reflectivity. In the example I used, the angle of measurement/reflection had little to do with the difference in readings. I'll do an update on this when I get back into posting vids. Thanks for the comment..
The difference between the two was that one of those bits of ali had high emissivity and low reflectivity in IR and the other had low emissivity and high reflectivity in IR. Visually they seem identical.
The thermometer I have is made more for high temperature objects, or at least that's what I bought it for- molten metal, firing pottery, etc. There are videos that show how to bend, form, and swage PVC by putting 400 degree (F)/200 degrees (C) sand inside. It saved me enough money on fittings to pay for itself and I didn't have to use as much glue either.
Where did you go?
I would love an update on this configuration?
I'm about to pull the trigger on 50 cells.
I'm in the middle of designing the solar system. I'm trying to decide on batteries or capacitors for my school bus build out.
Sorry for slow reply... My battery all seems to go well. one thing I would caution with this style is the internal resistance varies wildly between cells. So should be built with matched parallel banks. I'll be back soon!
measure voltage at each end of your power wires at capacity loading calculate power loss and subtract that from watt meter.Your wires are now part of your battery calculations.
removing will improve end value a little.
I think just getting a 4 wire meter will be the best option.
My slightly educated guess is because aluminium mostly reflects IR, so you're basically measuring the room behind you/yourself? Possibly the reading difference is because on one you measured the rack beneath which is non-reflective to IR? Interesting trivia about charging lithium cells below 0 :)
Hey Josh, You're on the right track, tho not quite... you get 5 points!
@@brendontait6968 Hahaha thanks - can I cash these points in? I guess I'll have to wait until you make a video covering this topic to find out the truth :D
Where you at Brendon ? Time for an update and some more videos !
Thanks! - I'll be back within a month - promise!
@@brendontait6968 Great can't wait !
I should have watched this video first, now I'm happy 👍
Sorry for that, very detailed test 😉
All good Matthias, glad you took something away from it. We are all here to learn.
Hi, love your talks. I am looking at powering a large launch with an electric motor as it's only drive motor. Would you suggest these Yinlong batteries? I am also in NZ. I ultimately want to run from only solar powered batteries with enough power storage for long trips to the Polynesian islands and Australia. I will also have a diesel generator backup for those cloudy days.
Thanks for that. Sound like a great project. Have thought about doing this sort of thing myself, personally i'd use LFP cells due to the cost/capacity ratio.
Where are your vids? Wanna see how your camper is doing!
Hey, sorry... life got in the way. I have been away in it a couple of times, it's fantastic! I will be back on TH-cam in a few months. Changing living situation at the moment.
Just wondering how are you going Brendan. Always wonder why you stopped posting. Hope you are well and spinning around in your mog.
Very interesting! Thanks Brendon!
No problem Jocke
So can I charge it below freezing? I need a battery for my bicycle lights.
Yes
I wish I saw this sooner.
And thank you. You have proved that these will be a worth while purchase for me
you're awesome Brendon
Aww Lex, Stop it! you make me blush
Hi Brendon, I am building my camper based on the IVECO 90/16 ex firetruck. I want to use LTO as a power source. What do you think of this way of coupling using threaded bushes instead of the nuts used fir the test setup. And maybe shortening the studs?
Where have you disappeared to Brendon?
We want to see the Unimog and what you are doing with it!!
Hey Mike... lots going on at the moment. Have made a bit of progress and will update soon! thanks
@@brendontait6968 Thanks Brendon - the stuff you have done so far has been inspired.
Great ....
measuring the temp of a shiny surface is not ideal, cause what your reading is infra red, and a shiny surface means you will probably measure the temp of a reflection
What is the minimum battery room temperature (online)?
Does the battery room require air conditioning?
Very cool! No pun intended 👍
Cheers Tymon
Given alloy is reflective to IR you're measuring reflections, so my guess is you're measuring the wall of the recently open oven that has started cooling naturally by hitting the side of the right one on a tangent and the other one you hit straight on and measured the room temperature/your temperature with.
Haha great video, is it your goal to leave the trolls with nothing to complain about?!
Haha - I don't think that it possible!
Hey mate I'm based in palmy and would be keen to have a chat about future group order, how do I email you etc.
Hey - flick me a msg on insta
Thanks
No problem
Is your project finished? When’s the next vid? Amazing job
Hey Danny, nah on hold at the min, but I'll get back into it soon. Thx
The OutFit sent me over. Hi.
Hey! Good to have you here! Will be getting out a few more videos in near future
I would like to use these on my RV! First they would be connected to an onan 4000 generator which needs 250 amps to start! And the RV is and charger is setup for standard 12v battery! What configuration would be required for this? 5S2P five series by two parallels( 10 cells) or should it be 6S3P? Ie im worried about the high draw of the starter, and having correct shutoff voltage on the charger! Inverter has low shutoff of 10.5V, and high shutoff of 15.5V.
250A is nothing for these - remember a 1P pack can crank out 400A. I'd get rid of the gen set and just get a bigger bank and decent solar - maybe even a good alternator on yr RV. I have plenty of power just running solar. This is powering induction hobs, electric hot water, domestic fridge etc. I'd be running 6S and charge limit to 15.3V
@@brendontait6968 thank you for the tips! I would like to eventually install the solar panels, but im going to have to build up to that! Also im not sure i can change the settings on this inverter so im stuck with 15.5 on high shutdown for the moment!
Thank you,sir.
No probs prepper
Is it down to emissivity? I'm not sure what the difference is between the two because they look very similar. Surface corrosion? Wrapped in tape? Anodised?
Yes, you are the most correct so far - tho your 3 guesses are wrong. You get 8 points (I took points for anodising since emissivity of aluminium oxide is similar to aluminium)
Can it be short circuited safely without any fire or smoke?
GWL made a video testing this, check out "Dangerous vs. Safe batteries, Explosion and fire test!"
th-cam.com/video/Qzt9RZ0FQyM/w-d-xo.html
Assuming you record for English speaking countries (other than Australia and NZ) I woould only comment that the content although informative would be MUCH better expressed if you spoke at 1/2 the speed being used. English has 4 main dialects British, Australian, N.A. and Scottish (includes Ireland) and it;s hard enough to understand each but when iy's spoken quickly it becomes almost a foriegn language to the listener. Then I may be wrong and the videos are only recorded for Australians and NZ.
Thanks for the comment, I'll slow down... maybe 20%... people might fall asleep if it'd 50% slower. Cheers
So bottom line it for me. What's the advantages of these batteries? I tried googling it and it just shoves a bunch of ads and where to buy it from.
They are robust, safe and long lived.
So do you think these batteries would work well for a house battery? With its high lifespan in cycles, it makes sense to have a battery that would last 30 years. Only thing is what inverter to use? What settings do you set your inverter to for the MOG?
IF Brendon doesn't pick this thread up - it's not difficult to make LiFePo4 last extremely long cycles. Slow in, slow out. That keeps your C ratings down and gives the internal electron's an easy ride. Good batteries are so cheap now it's easy and light to get a big bank.
PS. Will did a great piece on it in 2019 using info from a Swedish Uni. Good luck
I thought I'd answered already... these are the best in my mind, just not the cheapest. I'm doing a house battery shortly from LFP cells due to their low cost. The inverter I use is just a regular 24v one. The running range of the battery is 22-28V. I use a victron mppt to charge it. During summer I turn the voltage down to 26V.
Hey Lucy, batteries are getting much more affordable. I don't really like how most people build their battery packs, not much thought seems to be put into them.
@@brendontait6968 agreed, but I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Mike envisaged building with LTO as I'm not aware of commercial built packs. BTW. Love your mindset Brendon x
Interesting test.
Thank you! Cheers!
Where did you go brother?
Hey bubbagump... am still around. I do intend on coming back in the next 4-5months...
Happy to hear you're still there, look forward to seeing your next video! Thx for the update.
They don't work on glossy or metallic reflective surfaces pretty simple science we use black cards to tell the temp of freezers besides probes that already exist to trigger alarms
Nearly... but it's probably not quite as simple of a science as you might think.. color doesn't really make a difference, the spectrum of infrared that they measure is an order of magnitude higher than we can see, colors that we can see dont exist outside of our spectrum, pretty much all colors seem opaque to it. As an example... glass is quite glossy, and not very dark in color, however it's emmisivity is similar to matt black paint. The bits of aluminum I measured both had a similar glossiness and appearance but measured a very different temperature to each other.
@@brendontait6968 did I say a colour no
@@brendontait6968 you should probably read before u spew
In the IR spectrum that is being measured by these, depending on the 'colorant'... what we perceive as white could be perceived by the IR meter as black and vise versa, what we perceive in our spectrum is not necessarily what is seen in the IR spectrum, semantics aside.
@@brendontait6968 man you're dense the first few words of what I said are reflectivity not colour the black cards are non reflective and are used by multi million corporations and they rely on them for government logs. good luck with your channel as u asked for a simple answer and didn't know it in your video or u could have stated the problem 😉 but fact is you didn't.
Hello, I have lto titanat, its voltage was 3.20 on its own in 2 days, is it a problem?
On its own? Is it wired in series with other cells? It seems like a significant problem to me
@@brendontait6968 hello i solved the problem the multimeter was faulty
@@brendontait6968 I have another question, what should I balance the cells with?
@Harun Genç I've only ever balanced manually. Initially just putting cells on two metal rails and charging to 2.8V. I've also manually discharged the banks of cells that are reading high in the battery to bring them into balance with a long bit of wire.
Awesome!
Thanks!
how well do you think it would work as a starter battery for a vehicle namely a truck or van
Yeah, I think quite well. I'm probably going to remove my starter batteries and just use this in its place.
@@brendontait6968 cool hope you make a video of it
Update?
Soon - sorry!
How long does it take to charge
Depends on what I'm charging it with. On solar, would probably take a day and a half to charge from zero if some really sunny days. But it rarely goes below 80%. That is with domestic fridge, induction cooker, electric hot water. In most cases it is charged by 10AM. If I were to make a super powerful charger, could charge from 0-100% in just 10 mins.
Any new stuff?
Nothing yet sorry Mike... promise I have a bunch coming tho!
What oven is this! Why is it so fancy?!😧
The oven is a Miele and it's much more fancy than it looks, it's truly remarkable. You can just put an egg in it, say you want it soft boiled and you'll get a perfect soft boiled egg.
Does anyone know where i can find the charging curves for these LTO batteries
I'll chuck it in the description when I get a min
@@brendontait6968 that would be great been looking for the curves
for 48 volts best way is 23 s not 22 ... change my mind ?
20s is 30v 48v 56v
you can't measure shiny surfaces. The meter doesn't record temps correctly on them.
Try measuring your temperature in a mirror with these.
Tesla warms the batteries on a cold day, when charging, before starting the car, for this same efficiency reasons.
Nearly... What we see as shiny is not the same as what the gun sees as shiny. For eg with your mirror example... The wavelength these are measuring sees glass as opaque (the spectrum of light the gun can see will not pass through the glass), so it will not see the mirrored surface on the rear of the glass. Glass also has a high emissivity which means that it emits heat well which will be picked up by one of these guns. I'll do a deeper dive on this in a later video.
With regards to the tesla... I believe the heating of the battery pack is more to do with safety and longevity than efficiency. If you discharge (at high rate) or charge a standard lithium cell at low temperatures, you'll have the potential to cause irreversible damage to the cells by way of plating or dendritic formation. This sort of thing can lead to reduced life and safety issues by causing thermal runaways when getting charged in the future.
@@brendontait6968 Interesting. I thought dendrites on Lithium batteries form mostly when batteries are overcharged, or operating at high temperatures, since heat generated between the layers of the battery is causing movement in the electrolyte, which cause hot spots on the lithium layers, causing the formation of dendrites.
Perhaps when cold, the internal resistance rises, causing higher charge voltages, and causes more heat in the core of the cells (while the outside is still cold)?
You should not have a quarter volt loss over 1 ft of wire. If that lost were linear, it means you'd have 2.5 volts loss over 10 ft. Not possible unless you were using an extraordinary poor conductor
Iwire (A) × (2 × L(ft) × Rwire(Ω/kft) / 1000(ft/kft))
🙏🙏🙏❤️🙏🙏🙏
Warm climate in NZ? hahahahaha :)
where I live it doesn't really get cold. but, I intend to travel to some cold places....
You can't charge a lithium battery below zero degrees? You mean celcius? How can those electric cars charge below zero celcius? They're parked outside here and we had minus 10 last week..
Hey Truss, yes, that is correct. In degC. Batteries in cars typically have heaters in them and won't allow them to charge unless they are within a specified temperature range
Of course he means celcius! We don't measure in bananas here in NZ ;)
😁🖖✌👌👍😎
Need to measure your battery temp not cooler.
7:04
dont click bait me ah0l3