Just a separate comment. I’m retied organic chemist and it was great having analytic experts on hand. We learned that one early gasoline stabilizer was 80% xylene and 20% isopropanol. A lot cheaper to mix our own. I had a neighbor who raced cars and he asked me to find out what was in a “secret” octane booster that was sold for an incredible price per ounce. One or two ounces was recommended per tankful. It was amyl acetate (banana flavoring.) cheap as dirt. $75 per gallon today. I ordered a gallon for him and sent it to his department. He didn’t win more races, but maybe made a few bucks selling it.😝
PhD organic chemist here. Thanks for the info. First, it’s spelled triethanolamine. It is non-volatile, BP 325 C so it has little or no odor. Triethanolamine alone will most likely not do anything to rust. The other chemicals listed in the gel SDS are to buffer the solution to the proper pH along with the phosphoric acid, the “phosphate” part of the ingredient. The aluminum sulfate and citric acid are the acidic buffering agents. It’s the mix that’s the “secret.” No problems putting this down the drain. All of the ingredients are common in many products but hazards are for the the pure concentrated ingredients. Just read the SDS for citric acid that you eat in citrus fruits. Yikes! Here is parts of EPA uses for triethanolamine: Personal care -> body hygiene -> hand sanitizer Category Description: Antibacterial products for application to hands. I still avoid hands in contact.
As for the spelling, I think it's the auto generated captions which are to blame. They mis-spell 'chelated' as 'kellated', when it's printed on the label, and there are a couple of times when the captions print entirely different words to the ones we're hearing.
Many decades ago I worked in the quality control lab of a chemical plant and I used an Atomic Absoption Spectrometer for some testing. It was fun because it had fire. Can't remember if I used a Mass Spec or not - don't think so but we did use Gas Chromatography every day. One guy ran a neighbor's home brew through the GC. It was really high in aldehydes and he wouldn't drink it after that.
Any more I use gloves and often a charcoal filter type mask when using or handling pretty much any type of ‘chemicals’ (for lack of better word to describe them). Even though don’t notice any problems or issues when initially using them and getting on skin or breathing fumes. Some relatively benign‘chemicals’ can have a cumulative effect. May not do really serious harm, but can cause some unpleasant health issues. I’m definitely not one to be silly about PPE, but have learned the hard way, a little bit of basic precautions can save dealing with some health type unpleasantness. 😊
@allenbosely2059; just a pedantic side note... i wondered how people have come to use "any more" in place of "now", or "currently", since "any more" is properly used with a negative statement, like:"well, i don't use leaded gas any more"...
They used to be fairly secretive about the recipe (SDS from ages past did not give away anything, effectively insinuating all the ingredients were essentially NFPA health 0 or 1 and "food additives" at that). I'm not sure it's always had the same composition either. The claimed mechanism of action is that the selective chelating agent picks up the metal oxides, then hands the reduced metal ions over to a sulfate in order to keep them in solution and freeing up the chelating agent to keep it active. So I guess the aluminum sulfate is doing that 2nd job..... Except I've used EvapoRust to deoxidize aluminum before, and it hasn't seemed to lose activity. The structure of triethanolamine phosphate looks like it's effectively just a "carrier" organic web for dragging along some phosphoric acid while keeping it bound to something larger to reduce its activity. Does anybody have a sense of how "selective" this actually is for metal oxides vs pure metals? Seems a little strange. EDTA (in some form) has been proposed as a possible ingredient in the past because of selectivity for reacting with oxides. But I don't know how it compares to this species. Is the citric acid playing a key role? Does a metal oxide react FIRST with it, and then the phosphate takes over? Or is the citric acid part of the sulfate-based uptake process and the citric acid acts as a facilitator?
It absolutely works, quickly, and thoroughly, but I found out the hard way, the more it's used, the less effective it is. I assumed you could just keep on reusing it over & over. Wasted way too much of it removing rust from cheap nuts & bolts. Hoping a generic version will come, but this secret ingredient may actually be pricey.
th-cam.com/video/fVYZmeReKKY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FaFlq55tdUIz5WH_ This guy found a mix that works as well as evaporust and you can find the ingredient easily.
So, you confirmed what was on the SDS? Interestingly, the sds for the liquid form of the product says water and proprietary ingredients, but the Gel form (sds you showed) has different ingredients listed. Wonder if the gel and liquid are the same.
@@N-M424 triethylamine has an ammonia-like odor and is fairly volatile. Triethanolamine doesn't... unless it has traces of ammonia left by the manufacturing process.
I dipped my fingers in evapo rust twice, once in the yellow color soution and once in the clear version. Both turned my finger a bright yellow color. I thought the first time was caused by whatever they put in it to make it yellow but both versions had the same effect on my skin. So i try not to use my bare hands when using it anymore.
Rust 911 is supposed to come in concentrated from. It can be diluted up to 16:1 according to directions on the label. It too uses the same process to remove rust. Per gallon, it seems cheaper but the concentration is not stated on the label so it could be compared to Evapo-Rust. I wonder which product is a better bang for the buck? It would seem that Rust 911 is the less costly product but how is one to know. Maybe the manufacturer would tell us if we all call them.
Summary: 1. Part of the secret ingredient is “Triethanolamine phosphate” 2. You can’t make it yourself. 3. Just buy the vapor rust at $23 a gallon. 4. Drain Disposal ready? I’ve looked into this as someone who has dealt with rust removal on parts and would rather have a liquid bath to remove rust than going through grinding wheels and trips to the eye doctor to remove shards of steel from my corneas
I have a vague idea how mass spec works but don't really understand what it's capable of or how you might use or interpret the data. How conclusive could you be identifying the ingredients or Triethanolamine phosphate specifically? There was an older MSDS that listed diammonium polyphosphonate as the chelating agent, with sodium oleum sulphonate surfactant as the active ingredients. Could these fit the data you are seeing? Or could they be excluded? Please excuse my ignorance but I would love to know more.
..... or to be safe, use a simple electrolysis tank - removes rust, but not the base metal. It's been my go to in restoration work for decades - dirt cheap, but slower than acid
@@bigoldgrizzlyI've seen some Tudor-era cannons, which were brought up from the seabed put though electrolysis. They restored incredibly well, to the point where some of the artistic features actually came back. But as you say, the process took quite a while.
Hmm. Evaporust claims that you *_CAN_* pour used product down the drain. Can you use it to de-rust a bunch of things until the solution turns black and stops working, and then run it through the machine again to determine the remaining concentration? That would be very cool!
I don't think it goes away or changes just chelates out as a salt. I think it prefers aluminum so you could revive used solutions with aluminum foil possibly
@@MassSpecEverything Oh, very interesting theory! I’ve got a bottle, and aluminum foil, so can test to see if it makes any visible difference in the used solution, but I don’t have a mad spec to test the rest of your theory. Hint, hint…
Well this might be a fine video but for someone like me who understands NOTHING of what you're telling us, the BIG question is: does it work as advertised?!
@ecEverything G96 oil has a pleasant aroma that is very familiar, but I can't place it. Think you could figure it out? It's part number 1054 in their catalog.
Yeah, I can't find a place that will take engine coolant which is common. How the deuce could I find a place for this? "E-VAPE-O wut?" "Uhh no, we don't take tricycle meth *click*"
@@ProctorSilex ~ fair enough... but how can we neutralize it, so as to reduce it's detrimental effect on the soil/dump that they take it to? Acidic or alkaline maybe?
"water and proprietary ingredients" means more or less "we will not tell you because is it easy to make and cheap as dirt so we will not make tons of $$$".
Proprietary until you a hit with a MSDS. Secrets revealed. Bargin option-sometimes, brands are pure marketing, sometimes they aren't. Fir thise that are oure marketing, MSDS are your bargaian hunting friend! :3
I think they’re only required to provide ranges for potentially hazardous ingredients. The requirements came from safety concerns by emergency responders who previously had no idea what they were exposed to. I’m a little surprised water is listed, but some metals will burn in it.
Just a separate comment. I’m retied organic chemist and it was great having analytic experts on hand. We learned that one early gasoline stabilizer was 80% xylene and 20% isopropanol. A lot cheaper to mix our own. I had a neighbor who raced cars and he asked me to find out what was in a “secret” octane booster that was sold for an incredible price per ounce. One or two ounces was recommended per tankful. It was amyl acetate (banana flavoring.) cheap as dirt. $75 per gallon today. I ordered a gallon for him and sent it to his department. He didn’t win more races, but maybe made a few bucks selling it.😝
PhD organic chemist here. Thanks for the info. First, it’s spelled triethanolamine. It is non-volatile, BP 325 C so it has little or no odor. Triethanolamine alone will most likely not do anything to rust. The other chemicals listed in the gel SDS are to buffer the solution to the proper pH along with the phosphoric acid, the “phosphate” part of the ingredient. The aluminum sulfate and citric acid are the acidic buffering agents. It’s the mix that’s the “secret.” No problems putting this down the drain. All of the ingredients are common in many products but hazards are for the the pure concentrated ingredients. Just read the SDS for citric acid that you eat in citrus fruits. Yikes! Here is parts of EPA uses for triethanolamine: Personal care -> body hygiene -> hand sanitizer
Category Description: Antibacterial products for application to hands. I still avoid hands in contact.
The buffered citrate is likely the active ingredient.
As for the spelling, I think it's the auto generated captions which are to blame. They mis-spell 'chelated' as 'kellated', when it's printed on the label, and there are a couple of times when the captions print entirely different words to the ones we're hearing.
Yeah AI captions still need work
Thanks for the comment. I got more from it in terms of useful info than the video.
@@christosvolikakis1523 We found him, guys. We found the alpha nerd. ⬆️⬆️⬆️
Many decades ago I worked in the quality control lab of a chemical plant and I used an Atomic Absoption Spectrometer for some testing. It was fun because it had fire. Can't remember if I used a Mass Spec or not - don't think so but we did use Gas Chromatography every day. One guy ran a neighbor's home brew through the GC. It was really high in aldehydes and he wouldn't drink it after that.
Can you please elaborate ? Does a normal stores vodka have less formaldehyde than a home brew? What was the brew consisting of
I would love to see Deoxit tested.
The ingedients seem to have changed over time, at one point an SDS said it had diammonium phosphonate.
The guy used a spectrometer instead of looking at the SDS lolol, at least he had fun
Can you do blue Gatorade? Gatorade doesn't make the powder version and I spend too much money on the bottles. Please? Thanks
Now we need marvel mystery oil 👀
Noooo!
It must always be magically mysterious.
You mean ATF?
Ed's Red
I'd love to see different dried seaweed brands to see if you find heavy metals in them.
Sorry I'm not set up for metals yet but seaweed analysis is a great idea
@@MassSpecEverything u r a beautiful man
Any more I use gloves and often a charcoal filter type mask when using or handling pretty much any type of ‘chemicals’ (for lack of better word to describe them).
Even though don’t notice any problems or issues when initially using them and getting on skin or breathing fumes.
Some relatively benign‘chemicals’ can have a cumulative effect.
May not do really serious harm, but can cause some unpleasant health issues.
I’m definitely not one to
be silly about PPE, but have learned the hard way, a little bit of basic precautions can save dealing with some health type unpleasantness. 😊
@allenbosely2059;
just a pedantic side note...
i wondered how people have come to use "any more" in place of "now", or "currently", since "any more" is properly used with a negative statement, like:"well, i don't use leaded gas any more"...
Thanks. That explains why I get an allergic reaction to the stuff.
'Coincidentally I just used that for the first time on a cast iron flea market item. worked remarkably well
Yeah it's great stuff
They used to be fairly secretive about the recipe (SDS from ages past did not give away anything, effectively insinuating all the ingredients were essentially NFPA health 0 or 1 and "food additives" at that). I'm not sure it's always had the same composition either.
The claimed mechanism of action is that the selective chelating agent picks up the metal oxides, then hands the reduced metal ions over to a sulfate in order to keep them in solution and freeing up the chelating agent to keep it active. So I guess the aluminum sulfate is doing that 2nd job..... Except I've used EvapoRust to deoxidize aluminum before, and it hasn't seemed to lose activity.
The structure of triethanolamine phosphate looks like it's effectively just a "carrier" organic web for dragging along some phosphoric acid while keeping it bound to something larger to reduce its activity. Does anybody have a sense of how "selective" this actually is for metal oxides vs pure metals? Seems a little strange.
EDTA (in some form) has been proposed as a possible ingredient in the past because of selectivity for reacting with oxides. But I don't know how it compares to this species.
Is the citric acid playing a key role? Does a metal oxide react FIRST with it, and then the phosphate takes over? Or is the citric acid part of the sulfate-based uptake process and the citric acid acts as a facilitator?
Citric acid and aluminum ions I think
It absolutely works, quickly, and thoroughly, but I found out the hard way, the more it's used, the less effective it is. I assumed you could just keep on reusing it over & over. Wasted way too much of it removing rust from cheap nuts & bolts. Hoping a generic version will come, but this secret ingredient may actually be pricey.
th-cam.com/video/fVYZmeReKKY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FaFlq55tdUIz5WH_
This guy found a mix that works as well as evaporust and you can find the ingredient easily.
Look up backyard balistics. Turns out that baking soda and citric acid in the right ratio actually works better. Though it is a bit more aggressive.
So, you confirmed what was on the SDS? Interestingly, the sds for the liquid form of the product says water and proprietary ingredients, but the Gel form (sds you showed) has different ingredients listed. Wonder if the gel and liquid are the same.
I bet it's the same plus carbomer
@ecEverything Doesn't TEA have a strong ammonia odor? Does Evapo-rust have the same odor? I have never handle evapo-rust.
Maybe fumed silica? As thickening agent in gel.
@@N-M424 triethylamine has an ammonia-like odor and is fairly volatile. Triethanolamine doesn't... unless it has traces of ammonia left by the manufacturing process.
I dipped my fingers in evapo rust twice, once in the yellow color soution and once in the clear version. Both turned my finger a bright yellow color. I thought the first time was caused by whatever they put in it to make it yellow but both versions had the same effect on my skin. So i try not to use my bare hands when using it anymore.
Rust 911 is supposed to come in concentrated from. It can be diluted up to 16:1 according to directions on the label. It too uses the same process to remove rust. Per gallon, it seems cheaper but the concentration is not stated on the label so it could be compared to Evapo-Rust. I wonder which product is a better bang for the buck? It would seem that Rust 911 is the less costly product but how is one to know. Maybe the manufacturer would tell us if we all call them.
I'll get that one next
Summary:
1. Part of the secret ingredient is “Triethanolamine phosphate”
2. You can’t make it yourself.
3. Just buy the vapor rust at $23 a gallon.
4. Drain Disposal ready?
I’ve looked into this as someone who has dealt with rust removal on parts and would rather have a liquid bath to remove rust than going through grinding wheels and trips to the eye doctor to remove shards of steel from my corneas
I have a vague idea how mass spec works but don't really understand what it's capable of or how you might use or interpret the data. How conclusive could you be identifying the ingredients or Triethanolamine phosphate specifically?
There was an older MSDS that listed diammonium polyphosphonate as the chelating agent, with sodium oleum sulphonate surfactant as the active ingredients. Could these fit the data you are seeing? Or could they be excluded? Please excuse my ignorance but I would love to know more.
I'm looking for positive ions only. The other ingredients masses would be different
@@MassSpecEverything
Thanks for the reply.
I really enjoy learning about these things.
Great concept for a channel!
Great information. Thanks.
I use dilute hydrochloric acid, 'cuz I'm impatient.
But don't put something in it and forget ...
..... or to be safe, use a simple electrolysis tank - removes rust, but not the base metal. It's been my go to in restoration work for decades - dirt cheap, but slower than acid
@@bigoldgrizzlyI've seen some Tudor-era cannons, which were brought up from the seabed put though electrolysis. They restored incredibly well, to the point where some of the artistic features actually came back.
But as you say, the process took quite a while.
I saw TH-cam video where they put a whole car chassis and the stuff and it cleaned it up inside and out.
And that video was totally not sponsored by Evaporust and Edd China coughed up the $15.000.
Hmm. Evaporust claims that you *_CAN_* pour used product down the drain.
Can you use it to de-rust a bunch of things until the solution turns black and stops working, and then run it through the machine again to determine the remaining concentration?
That would be very cool!
I don't think it goes away or changes just chelates out as a salt. I think it prefers aluminum so you could revive used solutions with aluminum foil possibly
@@MassSpecEverything Oh, very interesting theory! I’ve got a bottle, and aluminum foil, so can test to see if it makes any visible difference in the used solution, but I don’t have a mad spec to test the rest of your theory. Hint, hint…
@@MassSpecEverythingregarding the aluminum foil idea, is that why the MSDS lists aluminum sulphate?
You can pour whatever you want down the drain! Should you? Is the question
My understanding is that it is molasses and water.
Thank You !!!!!
Nice work, thanks! Why not just check the msds though?
Less fun 😊
The MSDS doesn't identify the magic sauce.
Well this might be a fine video but for someone like me who understands NOTHING of what you're telling us, the BIG question is: does it work as advertised?!
Works great
I think this might be my new favorite channel... Do you take requests? 😄
Sure thing
@ecEverything G96 oil has a pleasant aroma that is very familiar, but I can't place it. Think you could figure it out? It's part number 1054 in their catalog.
phosphoric acid
If we aren't supposed to pour it down the drain, where should we put it?
Maybe the backyard, if I dig a deep hole to pour it?
Saying "dispose of properly" is such a useless CYA statement. If you know what you're saying, be specific; don't just say platitudinous BS.
Yeah, I can't find a place that will take engine coolant which is common. How the deuce could I find a place for this? "E-VAPE-O wut?" "Uhh no, we don't take tricycle meth *click*"
@@ProctorSilex ~ fair enough... but how can we neutralize it, so as to reduce it's detrimental effect on the soil/dump that they take it to?
Acidic or alkaline maybe?
@@jkg6211it's a toxic chemical not a base or alkaline so nothing can be done.
"water and proprietary ingredients" means more or less "we will not tell you because is it easy to make and cheap as dirt so we will not make tons of $$$".
Oh lord I can smell the cease and desist 😵
I could contact state regulators on this one so truce haha 🤣
I don't see how anyone could enforce a cease and desist on a trade secret if you figure it out independently like this.
A threat from corporate lawyer's letter vs actual enforcement are two different things. @@tetrabromobisphenol
Yeah it's not like he divulged the recipe for coca cola which is locked in a safe.
Proprietary until you a hit with a MSDS. Secrets revealed. Bargin option-sometimes, brands are pure marketing, sometimes they aren't. Fir thise that are oure marketing, MSDS are your bargaian hunting friend! :3
I think they’re only required to provide ranges for potentially hazardous ingredients. The requirements came from safety concerns by emergency responders who previously had no idea what they were exposed to.
I’m a little surprised water is listed, but some metals will burn in it.