NEW Engine BREAK-IN: Truth or MYTH?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ธ.ค. 2023
- Back in the day, new engines required a break-in period. With today's modern manufacturing techniques and material technology, do modern vehicles still require a break-in period? In this video, we utilizes the analytical power of used oil analysis to determine the truth.
In a previous video, I changed the oil in my daughter's new Toyota Corolla before it had 1,000 miles on it. Here's the link to that video: • AVOID the ONE MISTAKE ... , but many viewers commented and questioned if that was necessary on a modern vehicle. Since this channel relies on science instead of speculation, I took a second oil sample at at 3,000 miles to compare the wear trend. If the wear rate changes, then the engine is still breaking in, but if the wear rate doesn't change, then the engine was already broken-in. The oil analysis results will reveal the answer. Do modern engines still require break-in? Let find out!
Since we are talking about oil changes, here are some links to previous videos on oil filters and oil change procedures:
Should you pre-fill an oil filter?
• Does Pre-FILLING The O...
If your oil filter is vertically or horizontally mounted, here's a Short that shows you how to prime the filter before firing the engine: • Oil Change Hack For Ve...
For more from the Motor Oil Geek, check out • Motor Oil & Lubrication
For how to properly break-in a new engine, check this out: • How To Break-In An Eng...
For more about Oil Analysis, check out: www.speediagnostix.com
The oil analysis results showed that the Toyota Genuine 0W-16 did a great job. It is available at amzn.to/3t1iN5H
Who is the @themotoroilgeek? I'm a Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers Certified Lubrication Specialist and Oil Monitoring Analyst (I've maintained both of those for over a decade). I also worked for Joe Gibbs Racing for 12 years as their lubricant specialist. During that time, we worked with Wix Filters (one of our sponsors) to test and develop filters for our race engines. We also worked with Lubrizol and Chevron-Phillips Chemical to test and develop oils for our race cars. Following that, I was the head of R&D for Driven Racing Oil. During that time, I formulated and tested over 50 products. We also worked with Cummins, Comp Cams, Oak Ridge National Labs and General Motors on various R&D products. Those efforts are recorded in peer reviewed white papers published by SAE International and ACS Sustainable Chemistry journals. I also own and operate SPEEDiagnostix, which provides used oil analysis.
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases That just means that I may earn a small commission, at no cost to you, if you choose to purchase that product from Amazon.com. It is a way to help support the work of The Motor Oil Geek.
#oilchange #motoroil #syntheticoil #newengine #engine #newcar - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Thanks for all the comments, suggestions and questions. I appreciate them (even though the volume is quite overwhelming).
Just a few points to clarify…
I didn’t say these new engines are not run at the factory. I know they are started and checked for leaks, etc…, but that is not breaking in the engine.
Also, this car was built in Japan. I am not speculating that because it is a Toyota. I know it was built in Japan because all of the paperwork with the car said it was built in Japan. Also, the 0W-8 is an indication it was built in Japan because that is what Toyota recommends in Japan. Here in the US, 0W-8 was still not available when she got the car.
I hope that clears up any confusion.
I would still avoid using any 0w8 oil, there is literally zero tolerance to shearing and fuel dilution.
I miss being a kid, and watching your dad race. I'm from Martinsville va by the way 😁
A HUGE debate online is the weight war. One debate in the VB WRX community is the 0w20 vs 5w30 crew. Subaru was recommending 0w20 when the 2022 WRX was released but now Im hearing they are switching back to 5w30. As you probably know Ford switched back to 5w30 from 0w20 a couple years ago. I do all my own oil changes and I changed mine out (2022 WRX) at 1k miles with 5w30.
@@chrischarles9218 for Mustang Coyote 5.0L V8, Ford specifies from 5w20 all the way to 5w50 for "track" use. So it's easy to get the point. IIRC, there is a video here that describes the relation of engine oil operating temperature and viscosity. Modern cars lacking oil temp gauge (apart maybe from a few VW/Audi TSI cars) makes this whole thing even more frustrating.
@@xynostasos9022 I was actually referring to their Eco Boost engines as Ford found out 0w20 was a little light for a turbo vehicle. Oh Im happy to say my 2022 wrx does come with an oil temp gauge.
"It's not because I'm smarter than Toyota, it's because we have different objectives." You just won the automotive internet.
I’ve been saying that about modifications for years. Yes the engineers are smarter than me. They are constrained by different rules and have to please a wider variety of people. I only have to please me.
Thanks!
Finally someone who knows his stuff. I was getting tired of fake gurus and overconfident ignorance to fake knowledge
Thanks!
Nothing fake about Lake. He’s the real deal. I know some of the people he hangs with and they study motor oil inside and out. Get them all together and it’s a group of mad scientist creating something no one knew.
My man, breaking myths left and right. Thank you for your content.
Glad to help
@@themotoroilgeekhello could you explain “reversion” oil burning
I bought a new 2005 Camry 2.4. The dealer had some gimmick of "the first one is on us" oil change at 3500 miles. I asked about the 500 - 700 mile "break-in" oil change. They told me that was "old fashioned technology." I changed the oil myself at 700 miles and when I held my trouble light over the 700 mile oil in the drain pan...there were millions of tiny metal particles floating in the oil. I felt good about getting rid of all that metal at an early life of the engine. I owned the car for 15 years and racked up 218,000 miles before I sold it. The engine ran like it was "brand new" for all those miles. Fast forward to 2020...I bought a new Camry 2.5. I did the same thing but, this time I didn't see millions of metal particles in the oil. Still...I felt good about that first oil change. I totally agree with the first early oil change. BTW...while purchasing my new 2020 Camry the financing clown told me they break in the engines at the factory. I knew it was total bullshit because...how can they have the time and resources to break in millions of engines at the engine factory? Many of these dealership clowns will lie to anyone about anything...even their own mother!
Thanks for sharing. I agree!
Nothing new. The automakers have been making that ridiculous claim since the 30s.
It would be impractically impossible to break in all those engines. They'd need to actually drive the cars for the break-in period. Even if they were able to run the engines for all those hours, it's not the same as the engines being under load.
😂 I was told the same thing total BS ,change oil at 10k the toyota engine already breaks down from the factory 😅 what a Maroon!
I just got a new Ford Maverick (Fx4 and tow package). The dealership did not tell me about break-in. When reading the owners manual I found that a 1,000 mile break-in period with a mix of highway and in-town driving is recommended before off-roading, towing, or "aggressive driving".
I took you advice. Went and changed my oil today at 700 miles. I just bought my 2024 tundra 2 weeks ago. The dealership looked at me like I'm crazy when I asked for an oil change. I also asked for an oil sample. Explaining to them its a new engine. It's breaking in. There will be micro metal particulate in the oil. Long story short. After they changed the oil and inspected the sample of the first 600 miles oil. They found that I was right and gave me a huge discount on that oil change. Anyways I'm glad I changed the oil. Cause regardless of what any manufacturer says I think a new engine needs that 600 miles oil change.
Right on! Thank you for sharing your experience.
When I rebuild an engine, I let it run at a fast idle for an hour with SAE 10W, drain that and drive the car at fairly low speeds for 500 miles with SAE 10W or 20W depending on time of year, drive at moderate varying speeds, drain that at 1,000 miles, fill with SAE 20@ and drive at moderate varying speeds for the next 1,000 miles, then go to my usually 2,000 mile oil changes. In summer, SAE 30, in winter here in Northern Cal where it doesn't get very cold, SAE 20W. I change the filter at each of these changes. Many say overkill, but I have never had a lubrication-related failure and routinely got well over 100,000 miles on what would now be considered very poor quality oil, so I must have done something right.
Every car/gun/machine, no matter how fine made, needs some kind of break in which means to be used with a reasonable care and maintenance at the early stages. Needless to say, a proper maintenance in its whole life cycle, too. Thanks for your scientifically proven tests.
Thanks!
Toyota had kept 6 monthly service schedule until they ditched it and went 12 months interval, purely because people didn’t want to buy a car that requires them to visit dealership every six months. Not because the engines got more reliable.
I grew up working with my stepdad who had a machine shop and was a very good engine builder. He was always very strict about engine break in. When I started rebuilding engines for my own vehicles, I did the first oil change at 100 miles, the next one 500 miles, then another at 1,000 miles. Then every 3,000 after that. Some might consider that overkill, but there are a lot of contaminates during break in.
Absolutely! Thanks for sharing.
Eu também acredito que o amaciamento é importante para uma boa vida útil de qualquer motor.
Seu padastro e você estão corretos.
I think modern engines are a different animal altogether. Especially a Toyota or other highly engineered engines.
@@Alex-gx5mb Not exactly: Those very "modern" engines have much closer tolerances... so those require thinner viscosity oils, especially for their VVT or variable valve timing mechanisms. BUT, their cylinder walls are machined exactly like previous engines, and undergo the same cylinder wall and piston ring mating (Break-in) process, and require the same metal particle elimination at initial oil changes scheme.
Yes - 100 miles and throw away the cam lube, larger metal shavings and any machining residues from your "clean" rebuild. Put magnets on your oil filter to collect more iron.
Thanks to you I changed the oil in both my new vehicles at 700 and 1700 miles. It is a great piece of mind knowing its been changed twice before the 5000 miles "first change".
Great job!
Same here. On our reconditioned turbo diesel I changed the run in oil at 400 kms, then again at 1500 klms. On the 5000 klms I started using Full Synthetic.
I'll trust Toyota
@joeblow-xy3oz Oil is cheap, Motors are not. 50 bucks is a small price to pay, especially considering the source wants to sell you cars. Have you seen what oil looks like after the recommend 10k miles? I'll believe my lyin' eyes.
@@joeblow-xy3ozmarketing or engineers? I trust the engineers which would agree with this man here.
Thanks, Lake! Love the science based look at oil instead of all the speculation based info on TH-cam and the web. As been said below, keep up the oil myth busting videos!
Thank you!
Have always believed in break in. Brother bought a brand new Jeep Wrangler in 1993. Drove it home 100 miles and changed the oil. Changed it again at about 1000 miles or so, and then normal after that. Engine lasted forever. Also changed the diff and trans (manual) fluids at 1000 miles with quality synthetic. Really liked that Jeep, and ran surprisingly well for a 4.0, 5 speed and 3.55 limited slip.
I've always done my first oil change at 500 mile, 1000 miles and then 3000 miles from then on. I've never had an oil related failure in 30 years! This man is spot on with the information he is giving.
Thanks!
I have a Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine where I deliberately have never changed the oil...for 30 years so far. I just tip more in when needed, and it's still going just fine😂 I don't do the same with my car, but on modern synthetics 10k miles is fine between changes. I've never had an engine failure in over 50 years either. Modern engines are built to far closer tolerances, so running in is less crucial, but I think it's still important to go steady on an engine in its early days. Changing the filter is as important as anything.
@@timhancock6626 the key thing you're missing is direct injection which causes more fuel to get into the oil (fuel dilution is the term). This lowers the viscosity of your oil and leads to it needing to be changed sooner. Turbocharging a direct injected motor further increases the need by cooking your oil at higher temperatures. On these motors, change at 5K miles or 12 months, whichever comes first.
What ever you want to do I just do the first oil at 1k
what a waste to change oil that much
Thank you! I went from a 7,500k oil-changes, to a 5,000k oil-changes!! "Oil is cheap, engines are expensive".---Scotty Kilmer. Now I have two automotive heroes in TH-cam! Oh, and BTW, I only use Purolator filters!
I change my oil sooner than the owner's manual recommends, but like most Toyota owners living in the rustbelt, the frame will fail long before my motor will.
Yep. If you live in such an area, buy in the summer, and immediately take it to a place that does coatings and get the entire frame shot with bedliner or that thick black undercoating stuff they used to use on cars from Europe. If the thing is sealed and water-tight, then all the salt in the world won't matter. The issue is new cars and trucks are shipping with just a coat of paint to protect them, and often the bolts and so on aren't even painted. So guess where the rust starts and then some flimsy paint won't stop it at that point.
Fluid film , diy project for a few hundred bucks. There’s a million yt videos on this. Yw
I remember many decades ago there were companies like Rusty Jones and others that would undercoat your car. I don't know if similar companies are around or not to do that type of undercoating
Yes same on.my 2003 Ford explorer rusted quickly and motor blew at 100,000 and I used Mobil 1 faithfully
Just got the frame rust repaired on my tacoma. 240,000 miles. Oil changes every 10,000 at best.
I have always changed the first oil change way early for exactly that reason break in, I remember when they told you to very your speed and not drive over 55 mph for the first 500 miles to break it in better , now they say you don't need to,you just proved that wrong, change early and don't go 10,000 miles between changes.
My lady got lifetime oil changes from the Kia Dealership here in Vegas and 3 months in they call for first oil change.I think and suspect they know about the oil issues Kia has.I still pop in a bottle of Fuel Cleaner before that next change and she goes to California to see her mom.By the time she gets back oil change.Great Video,I saw the name and I'm like where do I know it,yup your dad 😂clicked like and subscribe i shall
I’m in the group engine oil and lubrication tech on fb with you and Bryce. Love seeing yalls comments and information. Also greatly appreciate you making this channel to stop a lot of misinformation from these wannabe TH-cam experts.
Awesome thank you!
When i changed the oil on my 2020 F150 3.5 at 2000 miles i sent it in to Blackstone Labs. Good thing I did. Second oil change at 4200 miles showed a big difference. Good idea to change early.
Through the magick of interweb, let me express my THANKS for your videos and approach in general. I've got to admit I found you, Lake, when looking for some updated deepdive into LSPI (found a vid from AERA) and then followed you to Motor Oil Geek, looking for exactly this type of content. Kudos!
Thanks!
When I bought my 2022 Tacoma I brought my truck back at 1000 miles for an oil change and the service advisor said engines don't have to be broken in and more like 50 yrs ago. I told I'm old school (56 yes old.) and to do it anyway. I'm glad I did because this truck gets a lot of highway driving and an oil change every 5000 miles. Thanks for breaking the myth.
I have found that the Dealership Service advisors are young now and most have no clue about much..
Thanks!
The dealer only cares about the warranty period. VW dropped it's warranty from 7 years to 4 years or 50,000 miles in 2021. You could probably run kerosene in your crankcase and make it through the warranty period.
Thanks Lake! We all appreciate these videos and quality information!
I appreciate that!
I absolutely love watching your videos. Incidentally they really do help out when I tell the missus we're using a certain type of oil in the car and why. Despite being an ASE tech she usually won't listen to my own experience so I just bring up the people I know are experts in their fields and show them to her.
You are so welcome!
I've recently found your videos and I love them thank you for being incredibly smart and sharing it with all of us.
Glad you like them!
Thanks Lake. Science proves a lot of things.
Always like when you post a new video. 👍
Thanks for watching!
Would be great to see a fact video about oil additives, that "reduce wear and friction by xx%". Lots of opinions in the net about those...
Your the only person I've seen who has heard of Driven motor oil, good stuff!
Its always good to see Lake post a new video, they are all so good!
Thanks!
I would be very curious for your thoughts and perhaps an video analysis on what, if any effects letting your engine warm up before driving has.
I dont want to see anyone throwing any shade or questioning my man Project Farm. He does some of the most thorough at home testing I have ever seen.
What does Project Farm oil testing tell the consumer?
@@Yorkiepoocharliereal word data
@@octosquatch. You would make your oil decision choice based on Project Farm testing? Would you consider any empirical data that can only be provided from VOA and UOA? A point of reference: Porsche oil Certification for the Carrera 991.2 platform is A40. Mobil 1 produces an A40 0W40 synthetic oil. This oil has been reported to shear down to 30W almost all the time, even when doing 1000 mile oil changes when having UOA performed. Some folks just don’t drive all their cars regularly so there were many, many low mile samples. Then when a VOA was done on this oil, it was found to be just over the 30W upper viscosity limit so it was indeed a 40W oil but barely. If all the oils that are A40 approved are 0W40, 5W40 and 5W50, Porsche is stating that this 3L twin turbo needs at least a 40W oil. How would Project Farm’s testing have told be that the M1 0W40 is not a great choice for my engine? The UOA and VOA actually did communicate this info. Thanks!
@@Yorkiepoocharlie he does the kind of tests I'm interested in, but I live in rural Alaska and drive a Toyota truck. If I owned a car as expensive and fragile as a Porsche I would use whatever oil the manufacturer recommends without question.
His testing is valuable I don’t care what you say, I wouldn’t base a my decisions of his work but it is very valuable .
Here's a thought experiment that will answer the question of whether or not engines are broken in at the factory:
How far do you need to drive to break in an engine? 1000 miles? 2000 miles? How many hours of driving does it take to drive, say 1000 miles (assuming the engine is broken in quickly)? 20 hours? 30 hours? 40 hours? It depends on the speed profile. How many of the engine does the manufacturer make per day in each engine plant? We don't know specifically, but even if it's only 100 engines per day and 24 hours for running them in, the engine plant would need 100 engine dynamometers with some sort of quick-connect set-up to get the engines on/off the dynos without costing a fortune in labour. Then think of the amount of run-in oil they would go through, and not to mention the fuel. They're not going to run in their engines before they're sent to the vehicle assembly line.
So... what do they actually do? Of the automotive manufacturers I've worked for, I only knew what one of them did as far as the end of line engine tests were concerned (this was about 10 years ago). My memory of what I was told is a little fuzzy but here's what I can recall: With the engines still on the production line (inlet manifold and throttle were part of the engine assembly, but exhaust manifold wasn't), an exhaust extraction system was placed over the exhaust ports, natural gas and filtered air was plumbed through the throttle, and deionised and corrosion inhibited water was used as the coolant. The engines were then run at a few different speeds, but at no load (and no dynamometer), for somewhere around 10 to 20 minutes in total to make sure there were no obvious major mechanical problems with the engine (they weren't even run on gasoline so they wouldn't dribble out liquid fuel in transit to the assembly line). 10-20 minutes absolutely isn't enough time to run in an engine. Also, the oil they used for the initial test was the same oil as was in the engines when the customers received their new cars. No special run-in oil. No in-factory break-in. Only a short test using an external fuelling system to ensure that the engines that went into the vehicles weren't dead before installation. As for end of line testing at the vehicle assembly plant... the driver pumped the brakes a few times to get the pads onto the discs, then the cars were driven over some humps to settle the suspension, then onto a roller alignment system (with a guy underneath to adjust the front and rear toe), then they went onto a 4-wheel chassis dyno and they were run straight up to about 75mph, and the dyno then switched into brake tester mode, and the driver did a relatively quick stop to get a little bit of brake bed-in happening. The cars then went to the parking lot to await transport (unless they went to be inspected by the quality auditors). No engine break-in there either. Engine break-in is still done by the customer.
👍 Thanks for sharing!
wow im so glad you post this video, thank 😊 🙏 I'm going to change my oil this weekend for my 2023 tacoma I'm call the dealer to request for the oil change at 3500 miles they said wait until 10k 😢.
Excellent video Lake! In the late 80s I started working for a SAAB dealer. The first oil change service was at 1,000 miles and was of no charge to the owner. The engines were equipped with a small break in filter from the factory. When properly serviced, these engines would perform well into the 300K mile range with minimal wear. Hone marks were still visible in the cylinders.
I don't believe in this nonsense of extended oil intervals. I think manufacturers are taking "orders from above" for environmental purposes. These extended oil changes are about the 3 Rs. Reduce, Recycle, Reuse. All these extended oil changes do is cause excess engine wear which ultimately goes against environmentalist principals. With extended OCIs engines are worn just outside the warranty period. Considering the cost of purchasing a new vehicle in this day and age, not many people can afford to buy a new vehicle every 3-5 years. 3K-5K oil changes will extend the life of these modern engines.
Thanks for sharing!
I have owned only 1 new car. It is a 2005 Scion XB with a 1.5 VVT 4 cylinder, which is basically a rebadged Toyota. I did an early oil change around 500 miles and used conventional oil until 3000 miles. From there on I used Mobil 1 oil and filter with oil change intervals of 10-12,000 miles. I still have the car but rust has taken it off the road with around 205,000 miles. It never consumed oil between oil changes. I never had to service anything on the engine other than a water pump, belts and spark plugs. Best car I have ever owned. I do believe extended oil services with the right oil and filter is acceptable for the right applications. I do not think it’s wise on turbo engines or diesel’s though due to higher stress and heat. I’m completely against the “lifetime fluid” bs that the manufacturers claim though. I changed coolant, power steering and transmission fluid at what I feel are reasonable intervals.
You're preaching to the choir! I'm an auto service professional, and I tell this almost verbatim to all my customers.
Sadly, some ppl are drinking the koolaid and think I'm just trying to make a killing off oil changes.
You ever seen a rich lube tech?
You know what does pay tho? Timing chains, cylinder re-sleeving, camshafts and rockers, etc, etc, etc.
Thank you for posting this! Looking forward to more motor oil myth busting.
More to come!
Thanks Lake Speed Jr! Awesome content!
I really appreciate what you address and collecting data rather than guessing. You point out that the goals of the manufacturers may be different than what is best for my car. 😊
I certify you an awesome TH-camr 🎯
Your video editing and clips are great!
My pleasure!
Wow! Thank you for clearing those myths up. I appreciate the science and your explanations!
I’m glad we could help!
I grew up around cars, my dad had a small Fiat dealership in the late 70s then a small Mazda dealership in the 80s when I was a kid. Back then, everyone knew that engine break-in was a thing and buyers were instructed to watch their driving at first and come back for an early oil change, it was just something you’d do with a new car.
In the early 2000s I was a new car salesman, I sold Saturn, Saab, Isuzu, then Volkswagen. The majority of new car were leased. I’ve attended manufacturers trainings and asked them all what the break-in period was. All of them said there was no break-in period anymore, that was a thing of the past, modern engines were machined better, used better metallurgy and were broken in on test beds at the factory before being installed in cars on the assembly line. I always suggested to my customer to drive easy at varying RPMs the first 300 km and not go over 3,000 RPMs the first 1,000 km, then follow the manufacturer’s recommended schedule for oil changes as the first couple of oil changes were free. I did that too with my own new cars, but knowing what I know now thanks to this channel, I’d change it earlier and even more regularly. My last non-turbo 2.0L Volkswagen started burning oil quite early.
Thanks for sharing!
My older JD mower with a brigs engine said 8 hour break in oil change. Newer JD mower with Kawasaki engine said no break in, run it like normal for 100 hours and don’t change the filter till 200…
Needless to say I changed it early and do a filter swap with each oil change.
Some 2.0’s had the piston rings installed upside down, so those drank oil pretty heavily.
@@leonkloonsner Whoa I never knew that. I had two cars with this engine from new. The first one, a 1999 New Beetle, overheated and was repaired under warranty, I forget what the issue was, the car was leased. The second car was a 2002 Golf GLS I bought new and kept for 13 years and about 220,000 km. It had a rough idle since new and burned quite a bit of oil, but I checked often and topped it up when needed, it was still going strong when I got rid of the car.
Oddly enough the last four vehicles I bought all still say in the manual to not push the engine hard during the first 1500km (I’m Canadian) and to vary rpm, and still talk about the break in period. Those are 04 Corolla, ‘08 Camry Hybrid, ‘13 RAV4 and 2022 Ford Maverick Hybrid for reference. The Maverick manual even says it comes with break in oil from the factory. The day I listen to the salesmen or service advisor at the dealership for advice on this is the day I stop caring if my vehicle survives past the warranty.
I’m not sure about other manufacturers but GM states in the owners manual that the engine needs to go through a break in period and recommends not to drive at single speed for long periods (cruise control) etc. although, they don’t recommend an altered only oil change interval. As the owner of your vehicle I think it’s really up to you to do your own research and be informed on your vehicle. If you’re not sure I would error on the side of caution and change the oil sooner rather than later
Great Video, thank you for the content!
A good friend of mine decieded around 8 years ago to sign a contract to work as an professional soldier for the swiss army. (In switzerland we have mandatory army service for at least 270 days. During this time we get trained by the professional „soldiers“).
When he started his new job he and his 20 classmates recieved all together the exact same model of car with an 1.5 liter diesel engine and manual transmission.
My friend told me that he was the only one reading the manual about how to treat the car during break in. So he broke the car in and never had any issues with the engine. Most other classmates just drove the car from the beginnin „normal“ or even quite agressiv.
After 1 year some classmates said that they had to top of the oil between changing intervalls.
My friend drove his car truble free without oil consumption for 4 years and 180‘000km (110‘000 miles) until he recieved a new car.
I don‘t have exact data, but the opinion that it is necessary to brake in an ICE engine with an early oil change and to drive it as described in the owner manual.
Thanks for sharing!
Funny youtube recommends this to me now, I just changed the oil at 500 miles on my wife's new Mazda; it was very dark oil for that few miles, we'll see at 1500 but I'm guessing it will look a bit clearer, now you've given the science as to why.
Did my 2024 Corolla at 1000 miles and observed the same dark oil.
I totally agree! New cars today are not broke in. When I bought a new 2013 Chevy Silverado 5.3, It sayed in the manual not to tow, let the engine idol or drive at steady speeds to much of a length of time, and to gradually accelerate for the first 500 miles, I know it's hard to believe but that's exactly what I did just to see if this was for real, and if it really made difference, and I gotta say, it seemed to have really worked. I've change the engine oil around every 6500 miles using Mobil 1 5w30 and AC Delco filters. So far, I've only had to add less than a half a quart of oil between oil changes and it now has over 214,000 miles now. This Engine has the AFM with Cylinder deactvation also. Early on when I had less than 50,000 miles on the truck, i had discovered that some of these engines had lifter problems, So I decided to get a Power programmer and disable the cylinder deactivation so that it stays in V8 mode and have never had a problem since, and get same MPG,s as before, plus at the same time I added an oil catch can. I think this has made a huge impact on the longevity, and you woulded believe how much contaminated crank case condensation and sludge I have stopped from going into the combustion chambers, and coaking up the intake valves, this Idea about the catch can, I had read about where the Corvettes and Camaros were having problems on the race track at around 20,000 miles on the engines with direct injection and had to have the intake pulled and manually clean the intake ports because there is not gas flowing into the ports to help keep the oil washed down and from sticking to the valve seats and stems causing performace problems. I know this turned into a long winded reply, but I figure it may help since it's oil related and can effect the moving parts of the engine. I really enjoy your videos 👍
Thanks!
The Chevy manuals still recommend you break the car in slowly.I purchased a Malibu Premier last year and did as they recommended.The service rep did think I was a little nuts for getting an oil and filter change at 700 miles though.What is $90 with the cost of engines and transmissions these days.Been doing this since 1973 when I bought my first new car.Never an engine or trans failure.
I'm one that's for the changing the oil often sooner when new. But I always run semi hard. That seats the rings. They have to wear in. The bearings I don't worry. If there is wear, then the tolerance was not set for the oil to have a film between the parts.
Just discovered your channel and want to thank you for your efforts! Also a big fan of your Dad.
Awesome, thank you!
Heavy equipment technician here- I've built numerous diesel engines for machines, and have always been big on 2 early changes. One after about 5-10 hours of test-in running, and the next after about 50. Samples on both. I have yet to heat about a lubrication-related problem on any of the engines I've built. Bad reman parts off the shelf are a different story, but....
Wife's 2024 Tucson we had changed at 500, and they kept insisting it wasnt necessary. I asked to see the filter, and it had plenty of wear-in metal caught. Their tech was worried because "we usually see this amount at the first 10k change", I told him I'll keep a close eye on it and bring it back at 10k, for their satisfaction. When we brought it back, they looked at the filter and were surprised how clean it was.
Tried to make the point to the service advisors that, at bare minimum, changing that filter at 500 would make a big difference on engine claims. Who knows if they'll take it to heart.
I personally wouldnt mind a 500-mile "wellness check" recommendation on a new car. Just sell it as making absolutely certain that everything is as good as you expect it to be, to guarantee their satisfaction and ensure no surprises- while you're there at MINIMUM change that filter, better yet change the oil, and give the customer that extra bit of peace of mind.
I worked at Cummins in the late 90s to about 2007 and their engines were broke in at the factory at least for the N14, M11, and early ISX/Signature 60, and K series models which is what I mostly worked on . I don’t know to what extent but that’s what they told us in our factory specific schooling . I’m assuming Caterpillar and Detroit was maybe still the same way .
@dave0z96
Cat has certified Dyno-sheets on all of their in-house engines. The dealer can get into the "TMI" system, look up the serial number, and see the report on that specific engine compared to the Spec sheet.
I don't know how many hours they run each in for, but it's at least a couple.
Thanks Lake, always enjoy your videos,love the approach. Take care.
Thanks 👍
The question, however, is whether 13 ppm iron, 40 ppm copper and 13 ppm aluminum is really that destructive (relative to 8, 8 and 4, respectively) to worry about in a normal (e.g., 5000 mile) change interval. Those are still tiny amounts and the filter catches all the bigger particles that would cause the most damage. Also, it would seem to matter what driving habits of the driver are. For example, if a lot of time is spent idling in heavy traffic, idling in a drive-thru line, or idling in a parking lot (I see tons of people doing this lately...just sitting there in the parking lot on their phone with the car idling for the heat or AC. Idling is a relatively oil-lean condition for most engine parts as the oil pump volume is low at idle (700-800) rpm).
That’s just the particles the oil analysis can see, which is only up to 10 microns. The oil from the initial drain did have visible metallic particles, so those are larger than 20 microns. Also, oil filters do not remove 100% of the contaminants from the oil. The point being, the change in wear rate is what is significant. The numbers themselves are not what is most important. Lowering the wear rate was my objective.
@@themotoroilgeek, good to know. Thanks.
Great science-based observations! Thanks for helping us make better decisions!👍
Our pleasure!
Love the content. Helped me decide what to do with my new engine now.
Love the information you provide. I have bought a new vehicle since 1998 ! But i did always change my oil at 1k miles and then again at 2k miles. I had 3 New Dodge Ram trucks go 300k plus miles. 1983,1991 and 1999. I also changed the transmission , diffsand transfer case oils at 1k and 2 k miles.
Thanks for sharing
I have found that if you want to avoid an oil consuming engine it's best to change the oil after the first few hundred miles. I'm with you!
Thanks!
Thanks Lake, this is most interesting.
I'm glad to see that my choice in doing several early, starting at 300 miles, oil changes on my 370Z was a good thing to do. My hunch was that in using the specially formulated oil, Nissan ester oil for its very low friction, as recommended by Nissan would result in a prolonged break in period. This seemed to be confirmed by the progressively decreasing amounts of oil consumption between oil changes over the first 15k miles. I think that limiting acceleration and revs over the first 5k miles also contributed to the slow breakin.
I think this was a good thing to do for achieving maximum longevity, along with using short oil change intervals. I plan on doing some used oil analyses on different oils at different oil change intervals to see what will work well. The Nissan ester oil has problems in coping with the high thermal and mechanical stresses generated by the engine's variable valve timing machinery. The oil basically shears down from a 5W-30 to something like a 5W-20 after about 3k miles, hence my 3k oil change interval.
I've been using the Fram Ultra Synthetic oil filter ever since the OEM Nissan filter that came on the car. I'm using a 50% taller filter that was designed for larger engines for the increased filtration area and reduced pressure drop, to compensate for the fact that the filter is more restrictive because of its denser filtration material.
Keep up the good work. I've loved your work with Total Seal and all the information you've given us.
Thanks!
love ur vids, your honest opinion and sharing your knowledge with us. all you say in ur vids proof what i always was thinking about oils in the last 30 years as a mechanic und i still can learn a few new things for you. Thanks Man 😀
Many thanks!
Glad to found your channel, Sir!
👍👍
I get to pick up my RAV4 edge on Thursday.
Because of your and the car care nut I’ve decided to properly run in the whole vehicle.
Have bought two oil test kits I intend to do my first change at 500km second at 1500km third at 7000km then I will take it to Toyota for their first service at 1500 km. Will test at every change.
Right on!
As someone who has built engines both professionally and privately I know that a new engine will generally be made with tight tolerances in many areas. An engine is made of 100s of parts and these parts will suddenly be expected to move on bearing surfaces at varying temperatures at speed. I always run a brand new engine very gently statically to start. Then check tolerances and change the oil. And I will get particles. I then drive gently at operating temperature retorque and change the oil again.
And then check carefully during service. Result is perfect compression and combustion. But I do know many manufacturers are not this fussy. Oil is cheap
Thank you for sharing
Data will not lie. You are really helpful in that.
A little story from an expat living in Spain: I've been here for about 28 years. Back in 2017 I bought a Volvo XC90 AWD D5, which is a four cylinder twin turbo diesel engine (not available in the states AFAIK). I was stunned to see that the manufacturer (and dealer) oil change interval was 15,000km (about 9,300 mi), even the FIRST one! I remember arguing with the gm of the dealership and later, with one of his mechanics that this cannot be true as all engines need a break in period and that IMHO the first oil change should be around 3000km (about 1,800mi) and NOT the freakin 15,000 as stated. I was told that those days are over, and that modern new engines do not require a break-in period as they did back in my days (I grew up messing around with engines in the 70's). I told them that was bs and that I would just have an independent shop change out my oil at 2000 or 3000km to be safe. The dealerhip's retort? If I do that I will void the warranty that came with the vehicle. Geezusfuckingchrist.
So stupid me listened to them and have been faithfully completing oil changes every 15.000km (and occasionally changing out the oil about every 10,000km with an independent shop since my warranty period has expired). My Volvo is still running fine today but over the last year or so I've noticed it has begun to consume a little bit of oil between changes. I now have 200,000km (about 124,000mi to my metric challenged brethren :-), almost all of which are highway miles. The bottom line for me personally is that I wish I had just listened to my own common sense and insisted on an oil change interval that I KNEW was the correct one.
BTW, this same dealership insisted that my transmission fluid was for the "life of the vehicle" and have refused my requests to change it out. So my fluid now has 200,000km on it, and I'm told by an independent mechanic to leave it alone as changing it out now this late in the game may induce problems to it. I'm so stupid for not listening to myself and not changing it out at least twice now.
Sorry for the long post. Love this channel, btw. Thank you!
Theres no truth that changing the oil early would have prevented any oil burning today. Do you even know where the oil is coming from? Could be a valve guide seal and not the rings. I have a 2007 RV4 with 190K miles on it, nothing special was ever done, just drove it like normal and changed the oil at the recommended intervals, doesn't burn a drop of oil and still runs great, chirping tires.
Thanks for watching and sharing!
I agree with appalling68, I don't listen to the dealer anymore when buying a new car and do my first oil change myself without informing the dealer, with OM parts purchased by another dealer. Standard oil interval is now 25.000km by the dealer and I do it myself in the middle.
I hear the same from automatic gearboxes, once the oil is too long inside like over 150Kkm, they advice it's better just fill up and never change it anymore.
Thanks for this excellent video, Lake! Your channel has excellent production quality, and I truly appreciate the attention to detail and focus on data here. There's nothing better than an expert simplifying a lifetime of experience to get a clear message through to people who don't have that level of education or proficiency.
I highly doubt any company is going to break-in an engine of a $24k sedan. It's been advertised that something like the Honda/Acura NSX (MSRP $170k for model year 2022) has an engine which receives break-in treatment at the factory. That costs a lot of money to set up and run for the ~500 miles (equivalent) it's reported to go through (modern NSX advertisements said this much when it was newly announced)--though Hagerty's reports that Honda runs the NSX engine "for one hour" at engine speeds "up to 4000rpm," which I'm guessing is not under load.
Your credentials are impressive Dude! Thx.
I appreciate that!
As an automotive engineer with a background in tribology (I even have presented at a few STLE conferences), I can say I truly appreciate the oil and engine related content you put out. You cover the minute details in pedestrian language that is easy for everyone to understand. It's nice to be able to refer friends and family to a well made video than to try to cover the details in conversation. Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to share your knowledge on TH-cam!
Thanks for the very kind words. I really appreciate it.
As an engine builder and engineer, I have a different opinion on this subject. First Toyota, ( I have a new one 2 months old) specifically states there is no break in period, just avoid high rpms for first 500 miles. That said, the filter will do its job, changing oil under 5k is just wasting it. Back in the 80s when I built many V8s, we kept the oil in for 8k, it helps phacilitate break in, particals 10 microns and under, especially piston ring seating. it will not harm anything, now the only reason to change oil sooner is for 2 reasons, 1st the effects of oil dilution, which may happen in a new car driven with short trips . ..under 5 miles per run or very dirty oil in under 5k witch I have never seen in my career and I'm still building custom $20k motors. The 2nd if it has break in oil which is very rare
I had an engine builder tell me once to never break in an engine on full synthetic. He told me to break it in on regular petroleum oil, then after breaking in, to switch to full synthetic oil. He told me the rings won't seat properly on full synthetic, whereas on regular oil, the rings will seat properly in the cylinders. Once you switch over to full synthetic, the micropores in the cylinder will be filled in on a microscopic level creating the optimal wear surface. Maybe the owner of this TH-cam channel could chime in on this?
Sounds like we need to do a video on that.
@@themotoroilgeek I'd love to see that! BTW this was told to me when I had my MkIII Supra Turbo engine rebuilt back in '96 (the infamous head gasket). TRD flew a guy in to do the work. $10k in extended warranty work!
Excellent!!!!!;; My dad was a mechical engineer in the early days of the US aerospace programs...... He always said...facts 1st probabilities 2nd... Too many people base their decisions on PR docs versus science
Thanks!
Very interesting points. I learned something for sure! Would you recommend break in oil on a rebuild for high horsepower racing?
so the old adage of: "change your oil often", still holds true
Another great video. I found this channel lil late but he's a real gem
Glad you enjoy it!
Great video as always.
I know someone else mentioned a catch can in the comments. Have you ever considered making a video about them?
Ron
Thanks for watching and the suggestion.
My son just bought a new Mazda CX30 and I was hesitant about changing the oil before 1,000 miles because it is new technology and I am old school, so I changed it. Based on your video... I think I made the right decision.
Glad to help!
Excellent info, Lake!! Thanx for doing what you do!
I appreciate that!
Those cheap ramps scare 😱 me, back in the day 80's & 90's those were very popular & they failed a lot. We used to modify them by doubling them up for added strength. Be safe man.
I totally agree with you it is amazing how much material comes out of the first oil change when you do it quickly I would never wait a long time on the first oil change. You can see all the particles in the oil when you shine a bright light on the oil like a bright LED flashlight. It doesn’t matter what it is a car motorcycle lawnmower change the oil quickly on the first oil change.
Absolutely. The flashlight on the oil pan can give you a heart attack!
@@themotoroilgeek I know what you mean it’s absolutely crazy how much material is in the oil pan that the filter does not catch. I am a machinist and mechanic by trade so I understand how things need to break in but it is still quite surprising how much material wears off the parts during break in. But after a few thousand miles it all settles down. I change my oil multiple times during this period to give my engine the best chance possible oil is cheap. None of my cars burn any oil and all run perfectly I think it is a worthwhile step to do when the car is new. For instance I just took a 4000 mile trip to Florida and back and did not burn a drop of oil in my V-8 tundra. By the way I love watching your channel keep up the great work I learn a lot.
You should have a video on start stop and cylinder deactivation.
Glad I watch your video. My 2023 Ridgeline has 800 miles. There's no way I was going to go 10k on a oil change. But now I will change it before 1k miles.
If you find yourself stationary for a longer period of time, the system is designed to start the engine automatically before lubricant temperatures drop too dramatically.
I know people get worried about engine damage with the start/stop but most mfg's have taken into consideration the impacts on the engine.
Thanks for the suggestion!
This is exactly the channel i didn't know i needed for years now
Thanks!
some people saying three oil changes in a month is an overkill and not beneficial at all. Do two oil changes during the first change interval (one at 30% and another at 70%) and resume normal change cycle, then you are golden
When I bought a new truck back in 2015, I took it in to get the oil changed at the dealership at 3,000 miles and they almost wouldn’t change it because the light wasn’t on. I had to argue with them about wanting my oil changed in my truck. I had to tell them “fine, I can go pay someone else to change my oil if you don’t want my money.”. They changed my oil after that with no more questions. Also, I kept changing the oil regularly around 3,000 miles and now have almost 200,000 miles on it and it is still running great.
Thanks for sharing
And if you still do that engine will last
Obviously modern engine manufacturing methods are more refined than they were even 30 years ago. But that doesn't mean the engine is 100% fully ready to go right off the show room floor. Yes the engine does still require some break in. Running upwards of 1000 miles then changing the oil will help the remainder of the engine's life to be extended. My dad told me when I started driving, that replacing oil is cheaper than replacing an engine.
Absolutely!
Great video Lake!! Keep them coming please.
Thanks! Will do!
I just found your channel and I had no idea you were doing this. I thought you were racing weekly.
I purchased a '24 Corolla LE hybrid in October soon after your Corolla video. I changed my oil at 1000 miles figuring since it runs in EV mode about half of the total run time, the engine really only has 500 miles on it. I noticed that Toyota is not spec'ing 0W8 anymore in the Corolla. The owner's manual and underhood sticker both said 0W16. Great videos!
Thanks for sharing!
Interesting. I bought a '24 regular Corolla in October as well. My manual and under hood labeling call for 0w-8.
Keep in mind lower weight oils have less weight, meaning the engine has to work less giving better mpg and power. However the wear is accelerated. I would recommend a higher weight oil if you want your car to last the longest.
You are proving me right I never trust I always change oil sooner then when it is dead!
Right on!
If I bought a brand new truck. Gasoline I would drive it at different RPMs if I'm on the highway I'm bringing up to 3,000 to 2500 to never study RPM for hundreds of miles, then dump it out of thousand to 1500 miles I don't think I just truly broken 3000 miles this guy is who you need to talk to specializes in friction 10 different types of metal
Thank you and very informative information. Cheers from Malaysia. 🇲🇾
Thanks for watching!
This is truly wonderful!
I am one of those people that, if I get a brand new car or I'm breaking in a rebuilt engine, I will do a 3000 mile break-in process (500 mile, 1000 mile, 1500 mile) with break-in oil specifically.
It has proven to me as being the proper way to break-in an engine for the sake of longevity. Like you detailed, the wear in metals do change during that initial break-in period. This also helps to limit piston ring early wear/degradation.
Thank you for this!
Your welcome glad you enjoyed it
We bought a 2024 Subaru Outback and they told me multiple times, no break in, 1st oil change at 10k. The manual showed inside 6k. I was suspicious and found you. So, after watching your video of changing the oil on your daughters Toy, I changed the oil on this Subbie at 700, 1200, and will again at 3k, before taking it to the dealer for their first 6k free oil change. I really appreciate you doing these vids. Big help.
We are that weird type that only buys when the former is used up. I still have her '97 Cherokee, and '07 Sedona. My '00 Merc Grand Marquis land yacht still hums like new at 240k.
I'm glad to help!
Company I work for bought new Ford Transit van. No break in, first and every oil change is at 25 000 miles interval says owners manual. Van was bought in Germany and it's start of life was max. speed on German autobahn straight from dealer showroom because it was empty. In it's first 20 miles on odometer it already clocked it's max. speed and max. governed revs 😂
Sad life of company owned fleet vehicles..
Love all the videos sir! Keep em coming
Thank you
Thanks Mate. Another great video backed by science, not just peoples opinions. I'll be changing the oil and filter in my new Subaru Outback Xt at about 1500klms.
Thanks!
Common sense and science. Lovin’ these videos Lake!
Thanks!
Back in 2004 a German automotive technician told me when you first buy a Mercedes or any other car the breaking process is somewhere between 3000 to 5000 miles that first oil change but he also told me when you first buy a car read the tachometer on your vehicle and try not to rev over 3000 RPMs. he said it gives that engine oil enough time to lubricate the engine well.
Thanks for sharing!
As a German auto specialist myself, most of them indicate right in your owner's manual to adhere to a break-in period.
That said, they do a preliminary break-in at the plant. At least, VW did. Who I was employed by for almost a decade.
@@LynxStarAuto i remembered watching a video where they said in the past factory break in was extremely harsh (i think they redline it up to 20km max depending on the brand SOP) and these days they only drive less than 4km and it's only to move the car to and fro the facility and do some minimal testing.
could you confirm if that's the case or had i remembered completely wrong?
Any doubts about your professionalism were cast away when I saw how you poured a quart of oil.
It doesn’t take much analysis to see the sparkly metal in the oil after 1000 miles. The dealer wouldn’t do my first “free” oil change until 8000 miles. Madness!!!
Absolutely!!!
I live in north carolina, a freezing cold state all winter 🙃 so I follow manufacturers recommendation to use 5w-30. NOT !
It's hot down here, my silverado runs on 30 weight while hot & running 🔥
So.... in warm NC I use a stronger set of molecules etc in 10w-30 in order to exceed the crappy 💩 5w-30 factory recommendation.
Most new motorcycles still have a break in service.
Usually around 500-600 miles.
Mostly involves an oil change and checking torques on key nuts and bolts.
But, as stated, most new motorcycles are still purchased and not leased.
And a lot of motorcycle riders care more about maintenance than many car buyers.
Some modern bikes also have an rpm limiter that isn’t lifted until the break in service is completed and cleared in the maintenance minder system.
Most bikes also have a pretty short warranty. And sadly a bunch don't even make it to first oil change. I worked at a dealer for 3 months as a tech, 5 bikes came back totaled with dealer tags still on them.
Most junk in a bikes oil is from the clutch too. Rings are seated from the factory though.
@@randombuilds8336Does friction modifier mess with bike wet clutches?
@@gregorymalchuk272 Yes, it might not short term, but it will. Like if you are in the middle of nowhere and low on oil anything is better than nothing, but it's best to stick with a JASO MA/MA2 oil for the clutch. Shell rotella t4 and t6 are JASO rated and available pretty cheap almost everywhere. Might not be the best, but my triumph tiger 800 made itto 110k miles before I sold it with that oil.
@@gregorymalchuk272
Can’t speak to the specifics of how automotive oil interacts with a wet clutch, but best to use a motorcycle specific oil (for wet clutch applications).
JASO MA (several different specs).
The bike manufacturers generally have branded oils.
Mobil 1 has a couple that are usually available at Walmart.
I prefer Motul motorcycle oils.
Thanks for confirming that I should do a break in oil change. Currently at 568 miles and plan to do the first oil change around 700 miles.
I'm currently watching this video. My two cents before the ending, is that no they're not broken in at factory. I had bought a 2014 ram 2500 with the 6.4 Hemi. Enjoyed the truck thoroughly. The only oil I was supposed to use was penzoil ultra 0w40. We could discuss more on what I did run for oils instead of the recommendation but my deal on the breakin was simple ... the truck gave a little puff of blue smoke on start up for the first 30,000km and after that, no more puff of oil smoke. So it was easy to tell the engine was still breaking in for that amount of time. I also believe (without hard evidence) that synthetic oils make for a longer breakin period though I could be wrong. Great video man! Thank you
We had a 2003 Grand Marquis come into the shop, knocking, oil light on..the 87 year old lady was a nervous wreck...we had one of the females give her a ride home, 136,000 miles, oil pan full of sludge, no liquid oil...the oil filter was dated Nov 2001, car made April 02..we pulled the engine and cleaned the pick up tube, $800 and it's running like new again...she said the car has never had an oil change...this was in 2017 and I still see it in her car port and moved occasionally....
Wow, the legendary 4.6L truly lives up to its reputation. That's a crazy long oil interval!
I loved my 05 crown vic p71. Absolute tank. Great road trip vehicle i think
Lol. Wow
WOW!!!! That's freaking too hard to believe
My wife & I bought a new Japan built Toyota RAV4 Limited Hybrid this summer. I've been a huge proponent of early and frequent oil changes. I changed the oil in our new RAV @ just under 1,500 miles and then again last week @ 4,930 miles. I didn't send oil in for an analysis, but I'm sure if I had, the results would have been very similar to the oil in your daughter's car. I subscribed to your channel after watching your first video of this vehicle and will continue watching. I'd be interested in your ideas of running higher viscosity oil in these new engines. Our RAV4 calls for 0W16, but I wonder if 0W20 would be better. Either way I'll be sticking with 5,000 mile oil changes just like I have in all of our vehicles in the past 20 years.
Thanks for sharing
Great stuff! Thank you for the informative video!
Glad it was helpful!
Good info Lake. I'll have to look to see when I changed my oil for the first time in my new 2010 Chevy. I still own it. I had used Mobil 1 for the first 150K miles or so. Then I did a Amsoil and then to Pennzoil Platinum. I used to go by the oil life monitor. Those were usually 6 to 7K miles but as we've seen on DI engines oil needs to be changed more often. I'm now doing 4K miles on the Pennzoil Platinum. I'm at 174K miles and it doesn't eat oil so I'm happy about that.
Thanks for sharing.
In the owners manual it states the break-in period. Every car I've owned and family members cars all stated that. There were discrepancies between brands/engines but they all were fairly similar. ~500 miles was the typical break-in period and some stated to drive a certain way. Non however stated to change the oil early. We have always done the first oil change at 1k miles for new cars.
Additionally, we've always used the heavier weight optional oil. As an example spec is 0w20, however 5w20 can substitute according to the manufacturer. So on so forth for the other cars. It's not cold in my regain so there's no reason to use the ultra thin oil.
Right on!
Really enjoy your videos. What an idiot like me needs is a quick run down on the additives used in oils and what each one's function is in the formulation.
Thanks for the kind words and the suggestion!
Good job getting facts out. You get an instant subscriber for that.
Thanks!